Viable draw engine: Goblin Welder + Elsewhere Flask?

[sco0ter]

I am kind of impressed by the success of a Vintage deck, which placed 2nd out of 119 players on the recent large Vintage event in Hanau/Germany (3rd January 2010),
because the first card that caught my eye was Elsewhere Flask and I thought: "WTF?? 4x Elsewhere Flask in a Vintage deck, which placed so high in such a large tournament?"

The decklist and a french tournament report and thoughts on the deck can be found here (or deckcheck.net):
http://solomoxen.com/forum/index.php?topic=11309.0 (try Google translator)

Obviously Elsewhere Flask combos with Goblin Welder and Esperzoa which makes a nice draw engine.

According to the creator, Welder + Flask were "really the motor of the deck".
Of course Welder has some other applications in this deck, too, but this one, seems to be the main one.

Now the question is: Could this tech which works in Vintage work in Legacy, too?
Of course there is more creature removal in Legacy, but Dark Confidant sees play nonetheless.

I would'nt play them alone of course, but rather in a deck, which gives Welder more applications than just comboing with Flask.

What do you think?

[Forbiddian]

Cool to see I can read the French easier than the Google translated version.


I really want to say this isn't viable.

Elsewhere Flask isn't easy to power out via Moxen/Mishra's Workshops. In Vintage, you generally have a lot more mana to play with, especially very early on in the game.

In Legacy, we don't have that much viable acceleration, and any type of Chrome Mox play will leave you behind on cards anyway, making a draw engine combo pretty pointless.

Also, synergies like Esperzoa + Sculpting Steel/Elsewhere Flask/Triskavelus/Tangle Wire just aren't viable, because it's prohibitively expensive to replay those spells until the very endgame.

These combos make Elsewhere Flask significantly better than SDT in Elsewhere deck, but SDT seems a lot better for Legacy.


Goblin Welder is quite underplayed, but I can't see Elsewhere Flask making the cut.

[Skeggi]

I think I would rather play Tsabo's Web. It still seems like a longshot though.

[MattH]

Activating a Welder should lead to winning the game, not drawing a card.

[kkoie]

There is also a lot more creature hate in legacy than in vintage. I don't see a goblin welder or esperzoa sticking around long enough to capitalize on the draw engine.

[sco0ter]

I tested those cards a little bit, and I am not convinced.

By the time you've drawn 2 cards off of 1 Flask is maybe turn 4, if Welder lives that long.

Please answer the following question: Why do the Vintage players play such Welder engines (it seems every 4-5th deck plays Welder shenanigans), and why don't they play things like Loam or Survival, which feel far superior!
I really have no idea about Vintage, and this is probably the wrong place for it, but it just doesn't go into my head.
Welding out a Tangle Wire for an Elsewhere Flask seems really bad compared to other things one could do.

[Forbiddian]

Please answer the following question: Why do the Vintage players play such Welder engines (it seems every 4-5th deck plays Welder shenanigans), and why don't they play things like Loam or Survival, which feel far superior!
I really have no idea about Vintage, and this is probably the wrong place for it, but it just doesn't go into my head.
Welding out a Tangle Wire for an Elsewhere Flask seems really bad compared to other things one could do.

There are a number of factors. The first is that in Legacy, there is a LOT more creature removal. It's only worth playing Welder if you can basically win the game off of an activation. In Vintage, there's much less creature removal, so Welder can be used more regularly.

Second factor: It's very difficult to get a key card into the graveyard in Vintage without casting it. Thirst for Knowledge is restricted in Vintage. In Legacy, it's much easier to say, Thirst out a Mindslaver and then Weld it back in to win the game.

In Vintage, if you play Mindslaver without the ability to cast it, it will stay in your hand the entire game doing nothing. Therefore, there's very strong pressure on Vintage players to front artifacts that they could hardcast (which is much easier with fast mana, like Inkwell Leviathan), but there's almost no pressure on Legacy players only to play cards that they can cast.

A third factor is that Moxen are cheap as hell and a dime a dozen (during games, I mean!). Everyone has a couple Moxen in play, which require almost zero investment, and will allow you constant access to a Welder target. Therefore, any artifact that hits your yard that could be welded in is worth a hefty profit, even if you're not welding in anything game-winning.

In Legacy, every artifact you could want to get on the table is a big liability. Either it's an artifact land or a Chrome Mox or a Mox Diamond or whatever, it's going to be a big investment. If you're Welding it in and out to draw a card or two, you're going to end up down even if your play survives all the creature kill and yard hate of Legacy.

One final factor is that Welder is complete junk offensively (meaning targeting your opponent's artifacts to make him bring shit back instead of his bombs) in Legacy. Welder is useful offensively against virtually every single Vintage deck in existence, so there's a lot of pressure on Vintage players to run Welder if possible. Even if they're not fully exploiting his ability with their decks, Welder can likely be used to counter their opponent's moves.



Oh, Tangle Wire is insanely good in Vintage. It's pretty bad in Legacy where it costs a million and does nothing, but in Vintage, you can take advantage of decks that don't develop as much fast mana as you do. It's also a ridiculous Welder target. You cast it, then Weld it out after your opponent's upkeep, then Weld it back in during your turn for timewalks.

But anyway, like I said above: In Vintage, you basically have to be able to cast all the spells, because Thirsting them and then Welding them back in is not going to be as effective in Vintage as it would be in Legacy where Thirst is unrestricted.

[Atwa]

I've seen a lot of people comment on how Welder is a creature and how he is vulnerable.

You must also not forget that while creature kill cards are the most played hate cards in Legacy, graveyard hate are the second most played hate.

The whole format works against Welder.

EDIT: How could I forget about Krosan Grip? That should be strike 3 against Welder.