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Sevryn
01-20-2010, 12:38 AM
This all started out as a brainstorming exercise on ways to use Foil (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=24587) in a deck. Using Foil requires two things: one, that you have island density; two, that you can turn the disadvantage of discarding a card into an advantage. As you can tell by this deck's name, we are going to be discarding a dredger.

However, running 11+ islands in a Dredge deck means going down one of two roads. First, one could opt to run the full 8 island-swamps with duals and shocklands in an effort to preserve the black core of the original Dredge deck. Or, one could just accept that this is a different build of Dredge and go with the very stable 11 islands. This requires other changes to the deck, mainly that Putrid Imp and Tireless Tribe no longer function as effective discard outlets. This in turn makes Ichorid more difficult to run as there are 4 fewer black creatures for him to eat. This leads to running Bloodghast instead, and because we cannot really use Undiscovered Paradise, we can use Dakmor Salvage for mid-game landfalls instead.

So far, this looks something like:


Counter Dredge:

Lands (15):
-4 Underground Sea
-4 Watery Grave
-3 Islands
-2 Dakmor Salvage
-2 Cephalid Coliseum

Discard Outlets (16):
-4 Careful Study
-4 Breakthrough
-4 Foil
-4 Cabal Therapy

Dredgers (11):
-4 Golgari Grave-Troll
-4 Stinkweed Imp
-3 Golgari Thug

Stuff We Want to Dredge (18)
-4 Bloodghast
-4 Bridge from Below
-4 Narcomoeba
-3 Dread Return
-1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
-1 Flame-Kin Zealot
-1 Wonder


Tentative Sideboard:
-4 Chain of Vapor
-2 Ancestor's Chosen
-3 Tormod's Crypt
-3 Null Rod
-3 Force of Will


An important thing to do when playing this deck is to ALWAYS choose to draw if you win the die roll (if you lose the die roll you are almost certainly going to draw). This leads to the best play this deck has: turn 0 Foil followed by a turn 1 dredge. Because you will always be drawing on your first turn, you always have the option of DDD (draw/discard/dredge), especially if you fear turn one counters.

Some other things to note when playing Counter Dredge:
-Breakthrough is probably best if you can wait to cast it with X=2, as this gives you a reasonable chance of ending up with Force of Will and another blue card in hand.
-Dakmor Salvage is there to bring back Bloodghasts, not for dredging
-Narcomoeba in hand can be removed to Force of Will.
-Mulligans are pretty rough compared to other Dredge lists. If you have an otherwise mediocre hand with a dredger, you should probably keep and DDD.
-We can't dredge into the typical flashback hate (ancient Grudge, Ray of Revelation) because we aren't running rainbow lands. Chain of Vapor is a good tool, and Null Rod can answer Crypt and Relic. We also have 8 counterspells on turn 0 to deal with any hate that isn't Leyline.

Hope this was worth your time. Any criticism welcome.

Aggro_zombies
01-20-2010, 12:42 AM
Disrupt seems like it could have potential here.

However, it seems like having lots of lands in your deck makes your dredges weaker, and no Undiscovered Paradise makes Bloodghast much less attractive.

Illissius
01-20-2010, 01:00 AM
Good to see someone else trying to make this work.

Notable absence: Cabal Therapy.

Is there really a reason why you can't replace 8 Islands with 8 Island Swamps and add Therapies plus potentially other cool black stuff? This would probably involve moving Force of Will to the board, but I think that would be a better idea.

Also, once you have all the Islands, you might consider a Wonder somewhere.

Poron
01-20-2010, 02:31 PM
4x Cabal Therapy is a must

Sevryn
01-20-2010, 07:04 PM
Thanks for the initial replies. I'm going to edit the original post with the following changes:

-9 Island
+4 Underground Sea
+4 Watery Grave

-4 Force of Will (maindeck)
+4 Cabal Therapy
+1 Wonder

-3 Mindbreak Trap (SB)
+3 Force of Will (SB)


Going in this direction, we could try to squeeze Putrid Imp back into the deck, which would allow us to run Ichorids instead of Bloodghasts, and cut the Dakmor Salvages for either Islands or Coliseums (or one more of both).

Mayk0l
01-21-2010, 02:34 PM
Wouldn't Foil be a better sideboard card?

Preboard you don't need to counter anything. Usually, Ichorid wins game 1. I don't think it's worth always being on the draw (and opening yourself up to stuff like Daze and Thoughtseize on relevant cards like Careful Study or Breakthrough) if the upside is that once in a while you're going to be able to counter a possibly irrelevant card on turn 1.

But, when everyone sides in Tormod's Crypt, Relic, etc. Foil becomes a valuable card on the draw. Especially considering all the different hate printed, regular counterhate has gotten worse (Pithing Needle, Chalice)

Forbiddian
01-21-2010, 09:21 PM
Wonder is sick.


I take it this deck is originally for the $50 budget tournament?

Sevryn
01-21-2010, 11:27 PM
Wouldn't Foil be a better sideboard card?

(elaboration)

That's a really good point. What do you think about maindeck Putrid Imps, and plan on replacing them with Foil going into game 2?




I take it this deck is originally for the $50 budget tournament?

Nah, this came out of wanting to play Dredge, but not wanting to run the same list that everyone else runs. And also years of wanting to use Foil in a serious deck.

Rancorous Fool
01-22-2010, 12:03 AM
I toyed with this deck today. You are right, it mulligans terribly. That said, it is fairly redundant. I am trying to slip in 4 serum powder.

Then again, I am greedy, and foil is not bazaar of baghdad.

Illissius
01-22-2010, 12:45 AM
That's a really good point. What do you think about maindeck Putrid Imps, and plan on replacing them with Foil going into game 2?

Once you put even the Foils in the sideboard, wouldn't you feel pressure to drop the Islands and the entire thing and just play normal Dredge?

Sevryn
01-22-2010, 01:02 AM
Once you put even the Foils in the sideboard, wouldn't you feel pressure to drop the Islands and the entire thing and just play normal Dredge?

I don't feel pressure... people already work on regular dredge lists, I'm trying to get new stuff to work. I think there's something to be said for coming into game 2 with a hate counter for everything except leyline that also happens to enable the decks main strategy. I've seen Dredge lists running Force of Will in the SB already (mostly vintage Dredge lists), and Foil is more breakable if you can address the island density problem. This isn't a tier 1 deck, but maybe with tweaking it could be, and that motivates me more than the fact that current dredge lists are better discourages me.

Forbiddian
01-23-2010, 08:32 PM
Oh, facepalm, I didn't RTFC.

Still unsold on Foil, but mainly because it's hard to up the Island count. You're only running 11 Islands, which makes it equivalent to like 12-15 blues for Force of Will. I don't believe in minimums, but that's way less than anybody would run, even in Vintage.