[Deck] Contaminated Demons

[ReAnimator]

First off yes this is a black agro deck. However i though it had enough strategic differences from the Demon Stompy and stacks decks, as well as Eva Green and the GB Smallpox deck on this forum that i would start a new thread rather than just post an off topic list in one of those threads.

First up here is the deck:

Demons!


4 Bloodghast
4 Abyssal Persecutor
2 Tombstalker
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir

4 Bitterblossom
4 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Smallpox
2 Jitte
3 Contamination
4 Dark Rituals

2 volrath's stronghold
2 Urborg Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Black Fetches
4 GB fetches
2 Bayou
6 Swamp
2 Bojuka Bog (ETBT exile a graveyard land)

SB
4 Extirpate/leyline?
2 Sadistic Sacrament
2 Krosan Grip
2 Gravepact
2 Shriekmaw
3 Deed

I've had this deck together for a while and it used to have Nyxathids and Hymns, but with the printing of Abyssal Persecuter it doesn't really need that guy anymore and he was pretty situational. I like the targeted discard more than hymns as well.

I've tried Braids in here and i found it really lacking and only good if you already had your engines going, i always wanted a beater instead. It might have been better if i was running chrome mox or some such.

I'm still considering Chromes i just don't know where i would put them and if they are necessary, i would run them for sure if i had Confidants in here but there is quite a bit of life loss already going on they never felt right. With out Confidants you just don't have the card advantage, so i'm hesitant on Moxes especially with small poxes in the mix already.

I haven't tested out the new Graveyard hate land but i figure it's worth trying as a two of.

It's possible that 4 gatekeeper is too many and that i should cut a couple and a contamination main and just run some goyfs, however i'm less tempted to do that with Abyssal in the mix now as he really is quite large.

The Jitte's seemed like the best option for lifegain in the list, and having a steady source of creatures made it tempting too.

I've been pretty happy with the mana so far, recurring Gatekeepers is pretty good vs a lot of strategies. Urborgs have been fantastic and i might go up to 3, not having to sac fetchlands so you can save them for bloodghasts is really strong especially if you have contamination going.

The heavy black commitment is the reason i'm not running a sinkhole/waste type of game plan. If i was i think this would essentially just turn into Eva, and i'm interested in exploring contamination as it seems like a beating every time i resolve it.

I'm not sure the green splash is totally necessary in the board that is probably where i need the most help with this list. I'm a little out of touch with the legacy meta, so i'm not sure about that and also things like Jitte's and gate keepers.
If i drop green i would probably run a couple Gate to Phyrexia as artifact kill since it is pretty easy to support in here.
Gravepact probably looks pretty janky over something like Engineered Plague, but i think there are more than a few creature decks out there that would have no chance at winning through gravepact backed up by bloodghasts and bitterblossoms.

Anyway i would love to hear anyone's thoughts they might want to share.

[JACO]

Hey man, I'd drop the 4 Abyssal Persecutor. That card is too situational to be good, when you have other similar/better options (Tombstalker 3-4). Without having played this I'd make these changes based on what I'd want the deck to accomplish:
-4 Abyssal Persecutor
+1 Umezawa's Jitte
+2 Tombstalker
+1 Contamination/Diabolic Edict/Grim Discovery/other random utility slot

Jitte + dude, Bitterblossom + Contamination, and Jitte + Bitterblossom are like some of the strongest plays you can make in here, so I'd ramp those numbers up and focus on doing something semi-busted.

[ReAnimator]

My reasoning for not running the full 4 contamination is that the second one does absolutely nothing, and that versus some match ups like other decks with tombstalkers it also doesn't do enough.

I don't really want to drop the Persecutors they really do seem like a beating. Getting rid of them isn't the problem. The fact that they can run over tombstalkers and goyf (usually) is pretty good, and coming down on turn 2 is also savage. I really don't think the drawback is all that relevant or situational (other than vs ANT).
Tombstalkers have a problem with diminishing returns, in that each other copy is way harder to cast. I suppose that Persecutors aren't great in multiples but they are always cheap to cast even if the first one dies.

I can see going up on the Jittes i'll try to squeeze in a 3rd one maybe over a gatekeeper. Between Bloodghast and BBlossom you are never in need of a guy to equip.


Thanks for the feedback.

[IsThisACatInAHat?]

I really like the synergy here between Persecutor and Contamination, so I'd definitely keep those. I'd make room for the 4th in the board since it can be a dead card, but the extra copy may come in handy against decks with counterspells, trygon predator, pridemage, or when you just can't pay the upkeep. Artifact/ enchantment hate is ubiquitous.

I'm not so sure about some of your other choices like smallpox, stronghold or urborg. They don't seem to add anything to the deck and since this isn't a tempo deck, dark ritual may be a dead card more often than you like. Definitely 100% find room for the 4th cabal therapy (sac outlet for Persecutors, remember).

With some of the room in your deck, you might like to try some small number of undiscovered paradise for bloodghast recursion and the obvious: Tarmogoyf. If you can splash anything for anything, especially green for grip, add Tarmogoyf.

[ReAnimator]

I'm not so sure about some of your other choices like smallpox, stronghold or urborg. They don't seem to add anything to the deck and since this isn't a tempo deck, dark ritual may be a dead card more often than you like. Definitely 100% find room for the 4th cabal therapy (sac outlet for Persecutors, remember).

Yeah Smallpox is a hold over from when i was running the nyxathids. It works really well with bloodghast (both in play or in hand) and with Tombstalker, and Nyxathids, but other than killing Abyssal it really doesn't have as much synergy with the deck anymore, as i really want to get to 4 mana now for Abyssal and Jitte, where as before i only needed 3.
If i cut these down and go with a 4th therapy and 3rd Jitte, what do i do with the last 2 slots? I'd be down 3 extra ways to get rid of Abyssal, so maybe i go with Maelstrom pulse Deed, or vindicate? Maybe just a couple of confidants to help find the removal when i need it. I really don't want the 4th contamination main.

Urborg is actually really strong in here, by allowing you to not pay life on your fetches and managing your landfall for Bloodghasts. It also makes Stronghold work a little better with the triple black of gatekeeper too.

I've liked Stronghold going long. Recurring Gatekeepers is just an auto win vs a few decks, and there really isn't much of a drawback to running it, my mana base is pretty solid from what i've found so i'm not too worried about the downsides of wasteland. I suppose drawing 2 is pretty bad but if i was running only one then i would worry that i would never see it when i wanted too, maybe that's unreasonable.

I'm sure i don't want to cut Dark Ritual. I know i'm not tempo but it can lead to such dominating board positions super early, having a start like Dark Rit -> Therapy -> BBlossom is awesome, so is turn 2 Abyssal. I think dark rit is the back bone of your early game, there isn't anyway i would cut it. Not to mention that tombstalker is almost unplayable without it.



With some of the room in your deck, you might like to try some small number of undiscovered paradise for bloodghast recursion and the obvious: Tarmogoyf. If you can splash anything for anything, especially green for grip, add Tarmogoyf.

I don't think i need paradise with all the fetches i have, and the draw back seems pretty bad early and might delay getting Abyssal down. I could see it more if i did up the colour commitments.
I'm really hesitant to run goyf, it doesn't work very well with my contamination plan, and i've already got 6 giant beaters that don't disrupt in any way and a bunch of little guys that don't either. I don't really want to be a deck of just all vanilla beaters even though i've got a lot already, i don't think i need more. I would add Confidants before i went with goyf, and would probably just drop the tombstalkers if i went with goyfs as well.

I guess my question now is with 2 of the smallpox slots going to confidants, do i just cut the 3rd Gatekeeper and 3rd Jitte for a full 4 confidants? That leaves me with way less ways of getting rid of Abyssal, but a lot more ways of drawing into them. Is 2 Tombstalkers and all the other life loss just way too much for 4 confidants? should i just run something else in these slots?

[slylie]

Hey man, I'd drop the 4 Abyssal Persecutor. That card is too situational to be good, when you have other similar/better options (Tombstalker 3-4). Without having played this I'd make these changes based on what I'd want the deck to accomplish:
-4 Abyssal Persecutor
+1 Umezawa's Jitte
+2 Tombstalker
+1 Contamination/Diabolic Edict/Grim Discovery/other random utility slot

Jitte + dude, Bitterblossom + Contamination, and Jitte + Bitterblossom are like some of the strongest plays you can make in here, so I'd ramp those numbers up and focus on doing something semi-busted.

Not a flame but I wouldn't go as far as to say the Abyssal Persecutor is situational. Especially in this deck as he has more than enough ways to sac him once the damage has been done.

OP:

I like the deck, I'm also working on something similar, but never thought of the contamination/blossom lock. One thing I had in mind as a good way to accelerate out the demon, is the black Ancient Tomb.

http://sales.starcitygames.com/cardscans/MAGUSG/phyrexian_tower.jpg

It turns fairy tokens, bloodghast into double black mana early game, and is a sac outlet for your demon later. Also it taps for colorless and thankfully doesn't come into play tapped.

[Zlatzman]

Phyrexian Tower does seem worthy of testing, just remember that it's Legendary so running more than one is probably wrong.

[slylie]

Phyrexian Tower does seem worthy of testing, just remember that it's Legendary so running more than one is probably wrong.

On the contrary we are running smallpox so saccing/discarding extra copies isn't a problem, and in a format where virtually every deck runs 4 wasteland 3 should be the right number.

[ReAnimator]

I like the Tower a lot, but I'm not sure how many i would want, especially if i keep in smallpox. I've already got stronghold which i think is more powerful going long. Having too many colourless lands might be an issue with Bloodghast and Gatekeeper, and i'm not sure if Tower is necessarily better than High Market, for the life gain, mana burn being gone is nice for the tower though.

All that being said i have been thinking of another card for this deck that would work really well with either tower or High Market, Helm of Possession:

http://sales.starcitygames.com/cardscans/MAGTEM/helm_of_possession.jpg
Image from StarCity.

I know this is really expensive and only good vs creatures however it does work really well with Persecuter, Blossom and Bloodghast. Maybe as a 2 of it would be pretty good in here.

I'll test out the Towers, probably dropping a stronghold.

[Mystical_Jackass]

This seems like a cool idea. Always the hardest part is playing that BB when running City/Ancient tombs, I know my deck is stax and runs diamonds, 3 Urborg, & totems to balance it out.. but yeah, sometimes even so it's still not easy especially if Urborg gets waste, it can really mess you up games :/

I don't see Phyrexian Tower being good. It sounds like an awesome idea, but your turning precious tokens and attackers into bloodpets for extra mana when you really need that black mana

[slylie]

I like the Tower a lot, but I'm not sure how many i would want, especially if i keep in smallpox. I've already got stronghold which i think is more powerful going long. Having too many colourless lands might be an issue with Bloodghast and Gatekeeper, and i'm not sure if Tower is necessarily better than High Market, for the life gain, mana burn being gone is nice for the tower though.

All that being said i have been thinking of another card for this deck that would work really well with either tower or High Market, Helm of Possession:

http://sales.starcitygames.com/cardscans/MAGTEM/helm_of_possession.jpg
Image from StarCity.

I know this is really expensive and only good vs creatures however it does work really well with Persecuter, Blossom and Bloodghast. Maybe as a 2 of it would be pretty good in here.

I'll test out the Towers, probably dropping a stronghold.

I've never seen that before. Like an expensive Shackles that can go in our deck. Neat.

I agree the colorless mana sucks when running smallpox, gatekeeper, ect but The thing what worries me about the deck is if people bring in graveyard hate such as Leyline or Planar Void, it shuts down your Therapies, Bloodghasts, Strongholds, and tombstalkers. Then you are left with only Gatekeeper and Contamination as a sac outlet for the demon, which means all a deck running counters has to do is sit there and counter gatekeeper or contamination and let you die to your own bitterblossom. The Tower gives you an uncounterable, re-useable sac outlet, that also has use as a mana source.

[ReAnimator]

I've never seen that before. Like an expensive Shackles that can go in our deck. Neat.

I agree the colorless mana sucks when running smallpox, gatekeeper, ect but The thing what worries me about the deck is if people bring in graveyard hate such as Leyline or Planar Void, it shuts down your Therapies, Bloodghasts, Strongholds, and tombstalkers. Then you are left with only Gatekeeper and Contamination as a sac outlet for the demon, which means all a deck running counters has to do is sit there and counter gatekeeper or contamination and let you die to your own bitterblossom. The Tower gives you an uncounterable, re-useable sac outlet, that also has use as a mana source.

I think graveyard hate like leyline is a legitimate concern, however why would i walk a demon out into a leyline vs decks with counters?
I'm still not sure if specific grave hate is really worth it against this deck. If you play leyline what's to stop me from just winning with bloodghasts and bblossoms wearing jitte's? I think it is annoying for my deck but it doesn't make it impossible to win like dredge. Also i could have boarded in krosan grips. That being said the Towers have been pretty good (see below).

I played around with the mana base last night trying a little bit of everything, 2 Bojuka Bogs, 2 towers, 1 Stronghold, 2 urborg and 2 bayou. It feels like a lot of non basics, to the point where i want to drop the Green in the board. How necessary is Green to the deck? i'm thinking it's not entirely necessary. The Bogs seem ok as a way to squeeze in GY hate in the main, coming in tapped is pretty rough though.

3 colourless sources was annoying sometimes, i would probably want a third Urborg to support it, or maybe just drop the stronghold which i think is the best option. The towers were a lot better than i thought, though the main reason i want them is their interaction with Helm and gravepact, the demons are just a nice upshoot of that. Being able to power out a demon on 3rd turn without a ritual was also pretty sweet.
The Towers were a lot better than i thought they would be, and played way better than they look on paper. Messing up gatekeepers was irritating but didn't happen all the time and was mostly a non issue.

Here is the updated list:
Demons!

4 Bloodghast
4 Abyssal Persecuter
2 Tombstalker
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir

4 Bitter Blossom
4 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Helm of Possession
3 Jitte
3 Contamination
4 Dark Rituals

2 Phyrexian Tower
2 Urborg Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Black Fetches
4 GB fetches
2 Bayou
6 Swamp
2 Bojuka Bog (ETBT exile a graveyard land)

The slots i'm still unconvinced of are the 3rd Jitte and the 4th Gatekeeper. The Helms may be too cute but i'm willing to give them a fair shot.

Anyone have any thoughts on the sideboard, and specifically whether or not green is necessary?
Half of me wants to go mono just so i have a reason to run Gate to Phyrexia, lol.

[Justin]

Here is the updated list:
Demons!

4 Bloodghast
4 Abyssal Persecuter
2 Tombstalker
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir

4 Bitter Blossom
4 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Helm of Possession
3 Jitte
3 Contamination
4 Dark Rituals

2 Phyrexian Tower
2 Urborg Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Black Fetches
4 GB fetches
2 Bayou
6 Swamp
2 Bojuka Bog (ETBT exile a graveyard land)

The slots i'm still unconvinced of are the 3rd Jitte and the 4th Gatekeeper. The Helms may be too cute but i'm willing to give them a fair shot.

Anyone have any thoughts on the sideboard, and specifically whether or not green is necessary?
Half of me wants to go mono just so i have a reason to run Gate to Phyrexia, lol.

I had fun testing against your deck a bit this weekend. Maybe you should call the deck "Gay Demons" because of the faerie element to it (and a tribute to the "Gay Fish" decks of old). I'm not sure what I would change to the main deck. It seems odd to see a suicide black deck with no Hymn to Tourach. Although you do have eight other discard spells, and I'm not sure where you would fit the hymns in. Dark Confidant is also tempting, but again, where do you fit him in? I would keep Gatekeepers at four, because you don't have a lot else in the way of creature removal (especially after cutting Smallpox). I don't think you would need more than two Jitte, though.

As for the sideboard, I would play Leyline as your graveyard hate, as it works best in mono-black decks with dark rits. If you are worried about storm combo, you might try Mindbreak Trap to improve the matchup there. Engineered Plauge is still a fine sb choice in this format, too.

I'm not sure if the green splash is really necessary. The Bayous can backfire on you if they are hit by Wasteland or other non-basic land hate. I saw Deed in your original sb list, but I don't think it's so great in your deck. Yes, it gives you an extra way to sac Persecutor, but it's not so hot alongside Bitterblossom. I know that Krosan Grip is tempting to protect your deck from Plague, but you can still win with your demons. There really aren't any artifacts/enchantments that sink this deck. Even Humility is bad against Bitterblossom. The only other reason to splash green would be for Choke to improve your blue matchups. Personally, I prefer the consistency of a mono-black build.

[Kangaxx]

How exactly do you win after saccing a Persecutor, he's your main beater. I'd actually consider Delraich which can easily become a replacement beater off of a Persecutor (or even two!) or a couple BB tokens.

[Justin]

How exactly do you win after saccing a Persecutor, he's your main beater. I'd actually consider Delraich which can easily become a replacement beater off of a Persecutor (or even two!) or a couple BB tokens.

You beat your opponent down to zero or less life and then you sac the Persecutor, giving you an instant win. With Dark Ritual, you can power out Percecutor on turn two. You typically won't reach three BB tokens for Delraich until turn five, so he is far too slow. The flying ability of Persecutor is also important given all the big non-flyers (like Tarmogoyf) in this format. A 6/6 non-flyer can easily be killed with a double block, but this is much harder to do to a 6/6 flyer.

[ReAnimator]

I had fun testing against your deck a bit this weekend. Maybe you should call the deck "Gay Demons" because of the faerie element to it (and a tribute to the "Gay Fish" decks of old). I'm not sure what I would change to the main deck. It seems odd to see a suicide black deck with no Hymn to Tourach. Although you do have eight other discard spells, and I'm not sure where you would fit the hymns in. Dark Confidant is also tempting, but again, where do you fit him in? I would keep Gatekeepers at four, because you don't have a lot else in the way of creature removal (especially after cutting Smallpox). I don't think you would need more than two Jitte, though.

As for the sideboard, I would play Leyline as your graveyard hate, as it works best in mono-black decks with dark rits. If you are worried about storm combo, you might try Mindbreak Trap to improve the matchup there. Engineered Plauge is still a fine sb choice in this format, too.

I'm not sure if the green splash is really necessary. The Bayous can backfire on you if they are hit by Wasteland or other non-basic land hate. I saw Deed in your original sb list, but I don't think it's so great in your deck. Yes, it gives you an extra way to sac Persecutor, but it's not so hot alongside Bitterblossom. I know that Krosan Grip is tempting to protect your deck from Plague, but you can still win with your demons. There really aren't any artifacts/enchantments that sink this deck. Even Humility is bad against Bitterblossom. The only other reason to splash green would be for Choke to improve your blue matchups. Personally, I prefer the consistency of a mono-black build.

It was great to see you and test at the PR this weekend. Thanks for the feedback. I don't know if i'll change the deck name, only if more playable black faeries make it in oona's blackgaurd is fun and all but not too tempting.

I agree that 3 jitte's is too many but i really need some sort of lifegain and high market is just worse than phyrexian tower i think 2.5 jittes would be right. I would love to cut 1 jitte 1 Contamination and 1 helm and run a couple of tutors in here but there really aren't any that are reasonable. I could go with Diabolic intent but i don't want even more situational sacrifice cards and not being able to cast it early hurts. Beseech the queen is ok but clunky and can't really get tombstalker or even persecute reliably. Other options like confidant or Sign in Blood are just too life intensive.

I think Deed has a lot of applications vs other midrange type decks. It's great at clearing out countertops and chalice's and moxes out of loam. It's also good vs weenies, i really don't have that many permanents to worry about loosing to a deed. I guess i need to test it. I know there were a few games this weekend where i definitely would have wanted it out of the board, none of those matches were against you though.
I haven't found the mana to be too much of a liability so far, it really is a small splash. But i'm not sure it is worth it either. I know i keep flip flopping on this aspect of the deck i guess it just needs testing.

I think you are right about the leylines being the right call. Having Rituals helps and so does having 2 Bogs maindeck in case you don't get the leyline in the opener.

I actually got to do a bunch of testing this weekend at FNM and Saturday and Sunday of the Pre Release.

I tested a few games vs ANT, Loam, BW, EvaGreen, UGW counter top (Thresh geese), UGW counter top (heirarchs war monks), Justin's cool Hex Depths Stifle Naught deck.

The deck didn't feel disadvantaged in any matchup other than ANT. I had a legitimate shot at winning all the matchups and usually the games were pretty even, a lot of the games came down to who drew better or got their stuff off first. This was pretty encouraging as i was hanging with some top decks, so not feeling like i was running some rogue thing that would get blown out of the water was nice, i think with work this could be playable. There were a lot of hands where just like the other black decks i would play something ridiculous early with disruption and there was just nothing that the other deck could do, netting me an easy win.

Some quick thoughts on the matchups.
ANT:
Pretty rough game one, your fastest clock isn't really playable vs them, and having dead cards is pretty poor. Contamination is dead too. You need to get pretty lucky and have a lot of disruption to steal a win here.

Loam:
I was playing against a Devastating dreams version, that didn't have pulses main. This matchup was pretty good, my mana base wasn't getting disrupted that much, and my threats could come down just as fast, and bitter blossom totally held the fort a lot. The Bojoku bogs were gold as was Helm. Between the discard and fast beaters it was easy to get your game plan executed before theirs. Chalice was a bit of an issue, but it didn't stop any of your key spells unless it came down turn 1 on the play.
I think this would play out a little differently if he had targeted removal, but without it i felt like i had the upper hand in the matchup. Persecutor was GG most of the time.

UGW (both kinds):
This felt pretty even. Counter Top was rough when it resolved but it can't really stop the big threats that matter. Contamination and bitter blossom were both amazing in this matchup. If they had a heirarch they could work around it a bit, but otherwise it was pretty much game over. There were a few times where early goyf rushes combined with thoughtseize and fetches would put my life quite low and i couldn't always recover, but i think most decks have that problem. Helm was insane in here, as there really isn't any way of them stopping it if you have a Ghast or BB. I was winning about half my games here, and there were a lot of starts i had where they just didn't have any answers.

EVA and BW:
A lot of these games just came down to who had the better draw, and who could explode first or have the first unanswered threat.
If i could get a BB or Ghast going then it would shut down all the edict effects which was usually a win. Helm and Jitte were obviously ridiculous in these matchups.
BW had a way better chance as it had a lot of targeted removal for the demons and vindicates to get rid of artifacts and enchantments.
Eva had a lot of threats that were pretty rough if i couldn't stick my own big guys or helm/jitte. Shade is a monster, but only when i was disrupted enough that i couldn't fight back in time.
BW was way harder over all.


The Bojoku Bogs were a bit of a liability and stumbling block sometimes but for the most part (80%+) i was happy to see them especially at such a small cost not taking up spell slots. I killed a terravore with one (with bonus loam), bought multiple turns vs some geese and goyfs, and kept a tombstalker stranded for way too long.

Helms as predicted were awesome vs creatures and not so hot otherwise. Most of the time i was pretty impressed with them even if they are slow and clunky they are pretty hard to stop, and just like shackles they tend to just dominate the creature matchups.

[jrsthethird]

Since you can't run Dark Confidant because your spells are generally too big, what about Phyrexian Arena?

Also, Oona's Prowler is gay and might work. He can beat pretty well, and help with Bloodghast and Tombstalker.

[ReAnimator]

Since you can't run Dark Confidant because your spells are generally too big, what about Phyrexian Arena?

Also, Oona's Prowler is gay and might work. He can beat pretty well, and help with Bloodghast and Tombstalker.

I'm not sure i want the enevitability of the Arena, along with Bitter Blossom and all the other life loss. I would rather have one shot card draw / life loss, like sign in blood, i just don't think i can afford that either.

I love Oona's Prowler, it's one of my favorite cards, but i don't think it adds enough in here, it is just a generic beater and probably just straight up worse than Nantuko Shade or splashing for goyf.

Thanks for the suggestions though.

[Lothian]

Looks like a very good deck, very promising.

I've been thinking about something similar for some time (just bought the new demon playset)

few thoughts:

I think 6 big beaters is too much. I would cut the tombstalkers, and replace them with 3 vampire nighthawk. They can come turn1, gives you life, and kill anything. And it's a 3 mana drop, which you don't really have (except contamination)

I would replace at least 1 jitte with basilisk collar in here. Giving deathtouch to some 1/1 faerie can be pretty hilarious (come here goyf !), or lifelink to persecutor. That's again some serious life gain

Apart from that I'll go and buy some phyrexian towers ;-)

[freakish777]

I know what I'm about to post is a completely different strategy, but bear with me:


4 Abyssal Persecuter
4 Shriekmaw
2 Drinker of Sorrow
2 Braids, Cabal Minion
4 Dauthi Marauder
4 Stronghold Rats

2 Jitte
2 Sword of Light and Shadow

4 Bitterblossom
3 Contamination
3 Trinisphere
4 Smokestack

4 Dark Ritual
4 Chrome Mox
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Urborg Tomb of Yawgmoth
8 Swamp
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors


I think there needs to be more disruption in here somehow, but I can't think of how to fit it in.

[ReAnimator]

I think 6 big beaters is too much. I would cut the tombstalkers, and replace them with 3 vampire nighthawk. They can come turn1, gives you life, and kill anything. And it's a 3 mana drop, which you don't really have (except contamination)

I would replace at least 1 jitte with basilisk collar in here. Giving deathtouch to some 1/1 faerie can be pretty hilarious (come here goyf !), or lifelink to persecutor. That's again some serious life gain

I don't know if i agree on cutting big guys, on paper sure it looks like a lot, but without card drawing you really want a big threat and if your first demon gets plowed you need something to follow it up with. With heavy disruption hands you really need to be dropping a threat asap after their hand is ripped to shreds.

That being said i really like the Nighthawk idea, but i'm not sure where i would want to squeeze them, i could see cutting the Helms if they don't work out. You are wrong about three drops though, i'm running Gatekeeper.
The Hawks are nice cause they aren't just a generic beater like shade. Who knows maybe this will turn into vampire tribal lol. I'm still not sure if they are that much better than anything else though. Lifegain is tempting.

I really don't think i would play basilisk collar though, jitte gains 4 life when attached to a 1/1, and a 1/1 can trade with a goyf if i've got 2 counters on my jitte (+4/+4). The fact that jitte can kill creatures without getting into combat with them and can increase your clock puts it way over deathtouch and lifelink in my eyes.


I know what I'm about to post is a completely different strategy, but bear with me:


4 Abyssal Persecuter
4 Shriekmaw
2 Drinker of Sorrow
2 Braids, Cabal Minion
4 Dauthi Marauder
4 Stronghold Rats

2 Jitte
2 Sword of Light and Shadow

4 Bitterblossom
3 Contamination
3 Trinisphere
4 Smokestack

4 Dark Ritual
4 Chrome Mox
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Urborg Tomb of Yawgmoth
8 Swamp
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors


I think there needs to be more disruption in here somehow, but I can't think of how to fit it in.

Yeah that is quite different and should probably go in the Black Stax thread.
I think as far as fitting in more disruption goes it's hard cause you have lock pieces instead of disruption and the two don't really work that well together.
I did have braids in my list for a while but i found she is pretty underwhelming if you don't get her out super early, probably cause i didn't have as many lock pieces.
My problem with a lot of the lock pieces and disruption in here is it really doesn't do anything for you if it comes down late smokestack turn 4 reads: tap out skip your turn, opponent ignores this card, during their turn ignore this card during their next turn they sac a land, how in the world does that help you vs a goyf? compare that to thoughtseize.
Obviously it isn't working in a vacuum but it is situational.
I dont' fully understand some of the card choices in here. Drinker is pretty underwhelming and only works well if you have BB going why is he better than Gathan Raiders? you have so many guys that can't block and only attack, but without cheap disruption how can you count on them to go the distance or even win a race vs something like a war monk and heirarch?
I'm just not seeing the advantages black gives you over something like Mono U or R or W stax/stompy, it seems like you have too many things that don't exploit the symetry, how are you taking advantage of your rats more than your opp? Without BB how do you maintain Contamination or Smokestack? you don't have bloodghasts, or crucibles or anything.
At the very least i would drop in another urborg to help all your colourless lands.

[freakish777]

It certainly doesn't belong in Black Stax. Black Stax is a control deck, where I'm thinking there should be a way to make a Black Aggro Deck with Tomb/City. That said, you're right, I should focus on what I want to focus on (creatures and beating down).

It was late when I put that list together, Drinker is in fact awful (I possibly misread him, I'm not sure).

Stronghold Rats on the other hand isn't a "take advantage of this" card, but you do break the symmetry because you're going to have 3~4 mana early when your opponent is still trying to develop, which is even better if you already have BB down.

Also, Smokestack and Braids have more than just BB, they have Sword of Light and Shadow also possibly helping out.

How about this as a revision:


4 Abyssal Persecuter
4 Shriekmaw
2 Greater Harvester
3 Dauthi Marauder
4 Stronghold Rats
3 Fleshbag Marauder

1 Jitte
3 Sword of Light and Shadow

4 Bitterblossom
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Contamination
2 Trinisphere

4 Chrome Mox
2 Phyrexian Tower
2 Urborg Tomb of Yawgmoth
8 Swamp
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors



One of the less obvious interactions:

Shriekmaw/Fleshbag + Creature equipped with Sword. Your guy is never going to get blocked.

Shadow guys + Sword of Light and Shadow also seems fantastic.

Again Stronghold Rats won't be as symmetrical because of the fact that you'll have more mana and dump your hand faster and because of things like Trinisphere (not including Chalice was definitely a mistake on my part).

Stronghold Rats equipped with Sword and with Fleshbag Marauders/Shriekmaw in your yard seems fairly strong. Keep in mind you stack your triggers how you want so you'll return the card to your hand after you discard (your hopefully non-existant hand).

[ReAnimator]

That's cool and all but i think it is still too much of a severe departure thematically and strategically from my deck that this probably needs it's own thread.

One quick note on it though, how are you ever going to cast a greater harvester without dark rituals and running 10 colourless lands?
I still don't think the rats are very good in here, you don't have anything else that discards like seizes and therapies to punnish your opponent and you can only take advantage of the draw back if you have a sword resolved and swinging and that should win you the game anyway.

[Zilla]

With regards to the original deck being discussed, Grafted Wargear seems like it should be given strong consideration. Possibly in the Helm slot, since it fulfulls a similar role, by letting your weenies trade with bigger threats. That and it's actually relevant against non-creature based decks.

[ReAnimator]

With regards to the original deck being discussed, Grafted Wargear seems like it should be given strong consideration. Possibly in the Helm slot, since it fulfulls a similar role, by letting your weenies trade with bigger threats. That and it's actually relevant against non-creature based decks.

I'm not sure that Wargear really gives me anything that jitte didn't already provide. Sure it's pretty fancy and aggressive with ghast and BB tokens, but after that first turn Jitte swings harder and has all that extra utility. I'm not really looking for more bald aggression, my demons and other creatures are already pretty vanilla, and adding it for the sacrifice outlet probably isn't needed. The potential 2 for 1's of having your helm bounced or Kgripped are a pretty big downside as well.
It's a cool card for sure but i don't think it really adds anything in here. I agree that it is better vs things where helm does nothing, but helm and Jitte are just so much better vs creature decks. Jitte is about as fast as war gear vs non creature decks after the 3rd swing too (8 damage vs 9).

[Zilla]

I still think it bears testing. Tempo-wise it's much faster than Jitte due to its 0 equip cost, you can play it in multiples, unlike Jitte, and it's not a dead draw against combo and control like Helm is. Furthermore, I think the additional sacrifice component is actually extremely relevant in a deck focused so heavily on Persecutor. That it can get rid of multiple copies of Persecutor for no cost is of particular relevance.

As for 2-for-1's, I wouldn't recommend pumping your Persecutors with it until you've already won. It would be there to turn the creatures you don't care about losing (tokens/Bloodghasts) into actual threats. A 2-for-1 against these creatures is acceptable for obvious reasons. You really ought to test it before writing it off, imo.

[ReAnimator]

Yeah that's fair. I'll test it out. It is a super fun card it is really aggressive and the point about double persecuters is relevant.

Though if i have two persecuters on the table that is a pretty good problem to have most of the time.

[Mantis]

I have been working on a deck that abuses Bloodghast as well and had the idea of incorporating Survival to get all 4 of them then fetch a Dryad Arbor with the last activation. The deck was cute, but really bad without Survival and even when it did get Survival, it wasnt always game over. One big
issue was the manabase, getting enough green for Survival and enough black to cast Bloodghast and Smallpox proved to be hard.

However I do believe Bloodghast has potential and was pleasantly surprised to see this thread. Contamination is a card I habe always liked and Bloodghast looks like a perfect way to break it. Phyrexian Tower completes the equation. However, I dont like any of the shells presented here. Abyssal Persecutor is barely better than Tombstalker but costs double the amount of mana and has a big drawback to boot. The Helm looks very slow, but is test worthy. I like Grafted Wargear, seems testworthy.

I think the deck should focus on Bloodghast. Contamination, Smallpox, Phyrexian Tower and Cabal Therapy have great synergy. We can find Ghast with Entomb (maybe Buried Alive). Tombstalker is the best black beatstick available, I am going to run 4 as with Smallpox its fairly easy to fill up the yard. We should keep the deck both mono black and with a low manacurve, enabling us to use Wasteland and Smallpox. I would fill the rest up with cheap disruption such as Snuff Out, Thoughtseize, Hymn and Sinkhole.

Thats it, let me know what you guys think!

[Skeggi]

When Abyssal Persecutor got spoiled, I tested the following list:



4 wasteland
2 factory
2 urborg
8 swamp
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Marsh Flats
2 Polluted Delta
2 Verdant Catacombs


4 ritual
4 seize
4 hymn
4 sinkhole
4 smallpox
4 cabal therapy
2 Snuff Out

4 bloodghast
3 tombstalker
4 abyssal persecutor


Test results: it sucks. It's not very consistent and when you have a Tombstalker on the table, you really don't want to play Smallpox, but sometimes you have to. Just thought I'd share :smile:

[Mantis]

// Lands
6 [BD] Swamp (1)
3 [TE] Wasteland
3 [US] Phyrexian Tower
4 [VI] Undiscovered Paradise
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
3 [PLC] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

// Creatures
3 [FUT] Tombstalker
4 [ZEN] Bloodghast
4 Bitterblossom
1 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria

// Spells
4 [4E] Animate Dead
1 [TSP] Dread Return
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [TSP] Smallpox
4 [US] Contamination
4 [OD] Entomb
4 [FNM] Cabal Therapy

Very quick draft of what I had in mind. The Hymns and Bitterblossoms could definately be changed and Im not sure if there are enough quick ways to get Tombstalker out there. I definately like the Animate Dead as you can combo with Entomb or just pick up a creature you made your opponent discard or a discarded Tombstalker.

Only concern: I hope we are not too graveyard dependant.

[Justin]

// Lands
6 [BD] Swamp (1)
3 [TE] Wasteland
3 [US] Phyrexian Tower
4 [VI] Undiscovered Paradise
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
3 [PLC] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

// Creatures
3 [FUT] Tombstalker
4 [ZEN] Bloodghast
4 Bitterblossom
1 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria

// Spells
4 [4E] Animate Dead
1 [TSP] Dread Return
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [TSP] Smallpox
4 [US] Contamination
4 [OD] Entomb
4 [FNM] Cabal Therapy

Very quick draft of what I had in mind. The Hymns and Bitterblossoms could definately be changed and Im not sure if there are enough quick ways to get Tombstalker out there. I definately like the Animate Dead as you can combo with Entomb or just pick up a creature you made your opponent discard or a discarded Tombstalker.

Only concern: I hope we are not too graveyard dependant.

When comparing your deck with the original one for this thread, you deck has the advantage of being faster. However, the deck is certainly very graveyard dependant. You will face graveyard hate in games two and three, which will weaken most of the cards in your deck. The original version only plays a few cards that abuse the graveyard (Bloodghast, Cabal Therapy) and can win quite easily without them.

You mention that Tombstalker costs half of what Abyssal Persecutor costs, but that's only when you have six or more cards in your yard. Persecutor can hit the table a lot faster (one turn two with a dark rit), and it's speed is not affected if your opponent pops a Crypt or Relic. It also owns Tombstalker in the skies head-to-head.

Another thing that hurts your deck is its reliance on re-animation spells. At times, these will be dead cards in your hand, especially post-sb. Overall, I prefer your version of Contaminated Demons for game one, but I think the other version is probably better in games two and three (assuming your opponent is bringing in graveyard hate). I've always thought that if you want to play a deck that abuses the graveyard, just play Ichorid. It's so much faster and more consistant than the other contenders.

[slylie]

I present to you: my list.

"Rabid Dog"

4 Bloodghast
4 Abyssal Persecutor
4 Gatekeeper
2 Liege of the Pit
4 Dark Confidant

4 Bitterblossom
4 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Basilisk Collar
3 Contamination
4 Dark Ritual

8 swamp
1 polluted delta
1 bloodstained mire
1 marsh flats
3 Phyrexian Tower
2 Urborg
4 wasteland


First: I will address the most likely questions:

q) Liege of the pit? rotmfao... why?
a) Its 7/7 with trample and flying that hits on turn 4. Its hard to remove. Its huge. Its scary.
q) yeh but, you have to sacrifice a creature to it every turn...
a) Not exactly, if you read the card, it says "at the beginning of your upkeep sacrifice a creature other than LOTP. If you can't, lotp deals 7 damage to you." PERIOD. That means you can pay 7 life and keep beating with him. And also, the deck has lots of stuff you would be willing to sacrifice to him. Bitterblossom, ghast, ect.

q) Basilisk Collar? lol dude what??
a) I love this thing.. I started testing it as a joke after I had 2 from drafts, and it really balances out the deck. The great thing about it is it turns your bloodghasts into rabid dogs.. where before the opponent would often have a x/3 creature to sit there blocking ghast forever, this makes bloodghast a real pain. and better yet after swinging with ghast you just switch it over to a fae token and have an awesome blocker. The lifelink is the real icing and the reason to play it. The deck often gets low on life where you wish you didn't cast the second bitterblossom, but the lifelink from the collar can really even it out. Plus in those matches where the opponent is at 0 or less life and you have AP out, gaining 6 a turn gives you a lot more time to draw your answer.

q) No smallpox?
a) I had been testing with smallpox in the deck, and it just didn't seem to fit. I love the card, and play smallpox more than any other deck, but this isn't pox. While we have ghasts and tokens to sac to it, and ghasts to discard its just doesn't have a place in this deck.

q) Dark Confidant? with 8cc creatures?
a) God, yes. Bob is amazing. I think in my lifetime I have died to my own bob maybe 4 or 5 times, which is about 0.2% of games where I cast him. The card advantage is worth it, and with the basilisk collar it evens out the life loss.

[Maveric78f]

Interesting list Slylie. (I'd say first in the thread)

I love the Collars that fits into the curve and compensate with the life loss.

I would not keep Liege of the Pit though, I'd rather replace it with another Liege. Indeed, Creakwood Liege looks relevant with Contamination and against all kinds of Plagues. About sacrifice outlets, I really like Braids. It's almost always 2 for 1.

And I don't like at all you mana base. Why plays only 3 fetches ? I'd play at least 6 and probably 8. Wasteland seems subpar too.

[ReAnimator]

Nice deck Slylie.

If you look at the last updated list i had on the last page i had also figured out that pox didn't do enough in here. In fact your non land cards are only 9 off of my last posted list:
2 Tombstalkers for 2 Leige
3 Collars for 3 Jittes
4 confidants for 2 land and 2 helms.

I'm not totally sold on collar over Jitte, like gaining 2 life a turn off a bloodghast is probably worse than a jitte equipped ghast that can gain you 4 life a turn. It is better for holding goyfs back with a blossom on the table. Jitte's just seem so versatile and strong. Also in matchups where they don't have creatures Jitte is way way more valuable as it can increase your clock or gain more life and also provides a way to get rid of your Demon given enough time, collar does none of those things.

I'm not sure i can get behind Liege over Tombstalker. Stalker just seems so much easier to get down early and is still a huge threat. I think if this deck was trying to kill a lot earlier with more aggressive creatures, liege might be more valuable for killing quick, but as is now he needs a lot of help and set up.

I still think Confidant is a little risky in here i've debated it a lot, i suppose you can always remove it if it got you in trouble, i've just found that there have been a lot of games where even bitterblossom is a liability with the life, and confidant is a lot riskier than that. I guess my testing has been different than yours.

As Maveric already touched upon, i cannot get behind your manabase at all. Fetches are so valuable in here, it's what lets you keep a contamination going with only ghasts.
Also how are you ever going to flip Leige or kick up a gatekeeper with 7 colourless lands? that seems totally unrealistic. I really don't think wastelands add much value in here and are more of a hindrance than a help in a lot of situations.
Also 20 total lands even with confidant seems really low to support 4 cc threats.


Interesting list Slylie. (I'd say first in the thread)

Other than the initial list i hope!

RE: Braids
I've experimented with it in the list before but it really doesn't do much for the cost, it is really situational and usually worse than a big beater. Creakwood is interesting but i'm not sure if it delivers enough punch for a 4cc guy.

@Mantis
I think Justin covered a lot of relevant points in here (like persecutor over stalker) and i'll just add that i think you are adding situational cards to a deck that really didn't need them. Entomb is great but how relevant is having 8 bloodghasts? If you have an entomb in your opener do you cast it right away or hope that you get one of only 4 animates? Animates are fun for stealing goyfs if you hit one with a seize but you don't have enough of them to do that and animate your own stuff. I think if you want to be an reanimator deck (and goodness knows i love them) you should just play the reanimator deck, rather than cramming in a little bit of that style in here but not enough for it to be consistent and having no synergy with the rest of the gameplan.



As a general aside as i'm not usually on this forum that much so i'll ask, is it normal for people to post totally different barely related decklists in response to new decklists? I'm not saying it's bad or anything it's certainly given me some ideas and food for thought but it does sort of distract from the initial point and gets a bit confusing.

[slylie]

Nice deck Slylie.

If you look at the last updated list i had on the last page i had also figured out that pox didn't do enough in here. In fact your non land cards are only 9 off of my last posted list:
2 Tombstalkers for 2 Leige
3 Collars for 3 Jittes
4 confidants for 2 land and 2 helms.

I'm not totally sold on collar over Jitte, like gaining 2 life a turn off a bloodghast is probably worse than a jitte equipped ghast that can gain you 4 life a turn. It is better for holding goyfs back with a blossom on the table. Jitte's just seem so versatile and strong. Also in matchups where they don't have creatures Jitte is way way more valuable as it can increase your clock or gain more life and also provides a way to get rid of your Demon given enough time, collar does none of those things.

First of all, Jitte is awesome. I actually own 12 copies. Its great at turning dinky creatures into he-mans. I was testing it before collar but I prefer collar in this deck. It has better synergy. Its cheaper, it fits the curve much better. The 2cc slot is already clogged, this comes down first turn. You can put down multiples unlike jitte. It doesn't die to your opponent playing a jitte.


I'm not sure i can get behind Liege over Tombstalker. Stalker just seems so much easier to get down early and is still a huge threat. I think if this deck was trying to kill a lot earlier with more aggressive creatures, liege might be more valuable for killing quick, but as is now he needs a lot of help and set up.


In a magical land where people don't play graveyard hate, Tombstalker is 1st choice. But I hate when people bring in leyline vs the deck and completely own you because almost every card in your deck depends on the graveyard. I have him as a 2 of. The deck doesnt revolve around "setting up a liege" but he often wins games alone. Not to mention his synergy with AP, and basilisk collar. (yes, he does you damage). I like tombstalker but I like my decks to be resilient to hate better.


I still think Confidant is a little risky in here i've debated it a lot, i suppose you can always remove it if it got you in trouble, i've just found that there have been a lot of games where even bitterblossom is a liability with the life, and confidant is a lot riskier than that. I guess my testing has been different than yours.


Bob is a god. Cards are good.


As Maveric already touched upon, i cannot get behind your manabase at all. Fetches are so valuable in here, it's what lets you keep a contamination going with only ghasts.
Also how are you ever going to flip Leige or kick up a gatekeeper with 7 colourless lands? that seems totally unrealistic. I really don't think wastelands add much value in here and are more of a hindrance than a help in a lot of situations.
Also 20 total lands even with confidant seems really low to support 4 cc threats.


I've never thought of wastelands as sources of mana. Bascally against most decks I just want to drop something like a bitterblossom, then im happy drawing 4 wastelands in a row and just denying my opponent mana. That said, Urborg is there to help. Phrexian tower could go down to 2 but its just so good in here to power out the liege, AP, and to sac them later.


As a general aside as i'm not usually on this forum that much so i'll ask, is it normal for people to post totally different barely related decklists in response to new decklists? I'm not saying it's bad or anything it's certainly given me some ideas and food for thought but it does sort of distract from the initial point and gets a bit confusing.

Relax bro. Lots of people have ideas for a black aggro deck that plays AP and instead of making 12 different threads people are pooling their ideas together in here. You should be happy for the help, not come accross as condescending and rude when someone posts a different decklist.

Its easy to say "jitte > collar" and "tombstalker > liege" since its the consensus, but I'm trying to think out of the box and create a deck that is not only fun to play and strong, but works like a whole new machine instead of just porting in the regular aggro cards.

That said, I will create my own thread for Rabid Dog.dec after I've done more testing and have an optimal list.

[ReAnimator]

Relax bro. Lots of people have ideas for a black aggro deck that plays AP and instead of making 12 different threads people are pooling their ideas together in here. You should be happy for the help, not come accross as condescending and rude when someone posts a different decklist.

Its easy to say "jitte > collar" and "tombstalker > liege" since its the consensus, but I'm trying to think out of the box and create a deck that is not only fun to play and strong, but works like a whole new machine instead of just porting in the regular aggro cards.

That said, I will create my own thread for Rabid Dog.dec after I've done more testing and have an optimal list.

That wasn't directed at you at all, it was more in response to other lists above and the point Maveric touched on. I'm happy to have you discuss your deck here as i said it's only 8 cards off of my list and we are working off the same shell they are just variations of each other and that's great. That comment wasn't supposed to be condescending and i even said i welcomed the brainstorming, i just know on some forums it is frowned upon. I just found it weird that people were posting lists with less than 20 cards in common and a totally different core strategy, i never said there was nothing to be learned from it and they weren't welcome just that it was a bit distracting. Your list definitely does not fall under that category.

I really like some of your ideas and i'll test them out. It's possible that running both collar and jitte is correct. What do you think of helms? That is probably what could get changed to Collars, or maybe war gears as suggested by Zilla.

I'm still not sold on wastelands with towers, especially with only 20 permanent mana sources, i think you will be hard pressed to play a kicked gatekeeper or even a turn 2 ghast if you don't have an urborg.

[Maveric78f]

I've never thought of wastelands as sources of mana.
Then, you don't play enough sources of mana ;-)

The out-of-the-box argument is barely one. You have to acknowledge than Liege of the Pit is crap. It's 8CC, requires 7 manas, including BBBB in a single turn. I'm sure you can find better than this, not being GY dependant. Creakwood Liege is already interesting as a creature that must be taken care of very early. I understand that Braids is probably too slow for this deck (I'm used to playing it in Demon Stompy where it's really better than any 4CC black creature).

[Boogie]

I actually agree with reanimator in that there are a lot of off-topic lists popping up. It makes it difficult to follow the logical thought process of the deck.

On another note, I think that this deck definately wants confidant. To go with it, some amount of divining tops to smooth out mana and keep tombstalker 2 cards down. I also think that tombstalker is better than those other guys like liege or the other, crappier liege.

The equipment argument is the toughest for me. Jitte is obviously outstanding. Collar is faster, but I think that the brokenness of jitte trumps this. but since its legendary, I'm not sure how many I'd want. Then there is grafted wargear. it is faster, and is pretty diesel, and provides you with a free sac outlet once out. plus, 4/3 faerie token? Sweet! maybe something like 3 jitte 2 wargear? maybe 3/1 or 2/2? having both out would be great.

[slylie]

That wasn't directed at you at all, it was more in response to other lists above and the point Maveric touched on. I'm happy to have you discuss your deck here as i said it's only 8 cards off of my list and we are working off the same shell they are just variations of each other and that's great. That comment wasn't supposed to be condescending and i even said i welcomed the brainstorming, i just know on some forums it is frowned upon. I just found it weird that people were posting lists with less than 20 cards in common and a totally different core strategy, i never said there was nothing to be learned from it and they weren't welcome just that it was a bit distracting. Your list definitely does not fall under that category.

I really like some of your ideas and i'll test them out. It's possible that running both collar and jitte is correct. What do you think of helms? That is probably what could get changed to Collars, or maybe war gears as suggested by Zilla.

I'm still not sold on wastelands with towers, especially with only 20 permanent mana sources, i think you will be hard pressed to play a kicked gatekeeper or even a turn 2 ghast if you don't have an urborg.

lol sorry bro. Seems easy to misread people on the internets. :)

[slylie]

I was testing again all yesterday with some people in my cardshop. The basilisk collar was awesome as always and, liege of the pit was good again. Phyrexian tower I often leave in hand to protect from wasteland and to trick opponents into relying on the 'drawback' from AP. The funny thing about AP, exactly as I predicted, is it basically doesn't have a drawback. Opponents will never just 'leave it there', a 6/6 flying trample is too scary and they will remove it asap.

I also realized another reason to play collar over jitte:
Confidant, Gatekeeper, Bloodghast, Bitterblossom - are all already 2cc, adding jitte in there as well just makes opponents Engineered explosives that much better. And still in argument 1cc fits the deck much much better as turn 2 you want to be dropping a bob, bitterblossom, bloodghast, or 2 discard spells, a ritual and a ap, ect. Its much nicer to be able to just drop it for 1 mana. Strapped to an AP you gain 6 life.



The only one time I was wishing I had jitte was my opponent playing zoo had lavamancer online and it was a bit annoying, but that said I still won as the lifelink from collar was too much for the zoo player to overcome.

Yesterday I was playing vs. Zoo and countertop goyf. Zoo strangely seemed to be a pushover as bitterblossom tokens block everything they have all day long, the maindeck gatekeepers are awesome, and the collar obviously shines.

Countertop was funny as counterbalance isn't that great against you, and one game I went first turn basilisk collar, second turn my opponent went standstill. So I didnt play a land and said go, then next turn discarded a bloodghast, necroed him and attached the collar... of course my opponent had to break his own standstill to deal with the rabid dog, and I obviously won that match. Another game as I illustrated as well the collar shined when my opponent played EE for 2, leaving me with the collar where jitte would have died.

I love liege of the pit. I know people above are saying how crap it is, but really.. I like it. you can argue that its a 7 mana investment, playing and flipping him, but its a 7/7 flying trample... If AP is black's baneslayer angel, Liege is Blacks Exalted angel. I'll keep 2 in my build and possibly go up to 3.

[ReAnimator]

So I've got 2 Mox tournaments coming up at the beginning of april one on the Friday and one on the Saturday of the long weekend. I'm still planning on running this, and would like some help with the sideboard. I'm wondering with the impact of Madrid what i should be running.

Here is the main deck as it stands now, for reference as there isn't a list on this page:

4 Bloodghast
4 Abyssal Persecutor
4 Gatekeeper
2 Tombstalker
4 Dark Confidant

4 Bitterblossom
4 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Contamination
4 Dark Ritual

7 Fetch lands
6 swamp
2 Bayou
2 Bojuka Bog
2 Phyrexian Tower
2 Urborg

Right now i've got this as my board:

4 Leyline
3 Sadistic Sacrament
2 Perish
2 Helm of Possession
2 Krosan Grip
2 Pernicious Deed

The confidants have been good but still a pretty big liability in a few matchups, i moved the helms to the board to fit them in and a land as i should draw more with a bob. I'm constantly waffling on the 6th swamp vs an 8th fetch or the 3rd urborg.

I'm not really sure about the Deeds in the board, they wipe out a lot of my stuff too, so maybe just targeted creature kill is better there, it seems weird to splash just for grips.

I'm wondering if running helm of obedience is a good idea to combo with the leylines to have another form of attack out of the board. I would probably run two, do any of you have experience with this? If i were to run it i would probably drop the deeds and 1 perish for the helms and a 3rd grip.

I was also wondering if the Abyss would be helpful in the anti creature roll.

Do i need more GYard hate?


As for Basilisk Collar i tried it out, but it just failed in all the ways i thought it would. It was great in certain circumstances, but not necessarily better than Jitte, and often just way way worse.

Lifelink on a 2/1 or 1/1 is just worse than the 4 life you get off a Jitte, and on a big dude it is only a down grade of 1 or 2 life which isn't really relevant if you have a big guy swinging and is equipped, cause then you are winning.
Vs things without creatures, having the ability to go agro and pump a guy +4 is huge, collar never increases your clock, which is an issue.
Being able to kill a persecutor if you have a jitte on line long enough is also relevant and has come up a few times. Being able to kill things that arent' attacking is also not irrelevant.
The casting cost is a pretty big non issue as the equip is the same so only the initial investment is a loss but it is really minor and very rarely came up and when it did was mostly a non issue. You don't really care about dropping an equip on turn 1 that doesn't really help your game plan that much, it is in the later turns 3-5 that you are looking to lay down an equipment. The corner case of Explosives seems pretty minor, how many people run explosives?

[Oiolosse]

Phyrexian Arena is nice as well, I know it costs 1 more than bob but with no library manipulation he can be too risky in this build. Arena turn one is very nice, not too many people MD that much ench/artifact hate..and besides, they will want to blow up your BB, Jittes and contaminations.

[Scopeye]

Currently I have been running a version very smilar to this but with 3x Smokestack in the main and with 4x bloodghast 4xbitterblossom package it is working very well.
Has anyone else gave it a try?

[ReAnimator]

So I played two tournaments this weekend, the first was 46 players and the second was 33. I'm just going to do a mini report since pouring over all the details won't really interest anyone, and i have a weak memory.

I made some changes to the list and took some advice given earlier and tested it out. I changed up the list after the first tournament, i'll post both.

Tournament 1: 46 players

4 Bloodghast
4 Abyssal Persecutor
4 Gatekeeper
2 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Dark Confidant

4 Bitterblossom
4 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Contamination
4 Dark Ritual

8 Fetch lands
5 swamp
2 Bayou
2 Bojuka Bog
2 Phyrexian Tower
2 Urborg

SB

4 Leyline
2 Helm of Obedience
2 Sadistic Sacrament
2 Smother
1 Helm of Possession
2 Krosan Grip
2 Pernicious Deed

I tried out the Nighthawks and i really liked them, they were more reliable than the tombstalkers and they added that extra lifegain i had been looking for since there is so much self damage in here. The tombstalkers were not working with Confidants and with grave hate coming in against me.

Round 1 vs Counter top bant, no NOrders but plainswalkers instead (eventual finalist of the tournament)

This was a pretty tough match. He gets me with a lot of dudes and CB top game one, i grab the second with dudes and confidant, game three is really close and we both end up in a top deck war with nothing on the table and nothing in hand, i draw a bunch of lands and he doesn't and grabs the match.

0-1

Round 2 vs Mono U Merfolk

My opponent is a good player but he has been away from the game for the last 3 months and usually plays combo, I think he felt a little out of his comfort zone, trying to win with creatures. I win this round in 3 games, he had a pretty big mana flood in one of the games, but to be honest i have removal and dudes that can hang with his or are bigger, and he doesn't really have removal or a way to beat Demon. This is a matchup where i would want a 3rd Jitte as the game i lost was to him drawing more jittes.

1-1

Round 3 vs UW Agro control

This list was pretty cool, it is a UW creature agro deck with Trinket mages and Stoneforge mystics, and the thopter sword combo in it for a late game.
We split the first 2 games but he can't get the combo going in game three through my disruption and a Demon eats him.

2-1

Round 4 vs Zoo (eventual top 8er)

We split the first few games. He rips 2 bolt effects off a sylvan after shuffling with an empty hand dropping him to 2 to kill a demon that would have had him dead in one of our games, that was pretty close and would have been match. Then in anticlimactic fashion, i mana flood pretty bad in game 3 and he finds a Path for a nighthawk and Demon.

2-2

Round 5 vs NO Bant (madrid list)

Bitterblossom is some good as he can't find a NO in time to beat me. Game 2 he gets a turn 3 Progenitus and has a second creature as back up against gatekeeper. I don't find a removal spell (i have a keeper) and i die. Game three is a lot of back and fourth, but i land a bitterblossom and lock him out with a contamination when he doesn't have much on the table.

3-2

Round 6 vs Feldman 5 colour Dredge

I lose game one as one often does to dredge. I was actually holding my own for a while and might have been able to steal it if i had ripped the second bog but the odds of that were really poor. Game 2 Leyline holds him off long enough for me to kill him. Game 3 i have the leyline, and get a bitter blossom down to prevent any bashing with flyers. Bloodghasts start beating down, he gets the removal for the leyline but i have a bog waiting and bloodghasts with sac outlets are really good at removing bridges.

4-2

So an OK finish, loosing to flood in two game threes to two eventual top 8'ers felt like this deck put up a pretty good fight when i could draw spells. There were a few things i wanted to change though. Krosan grips would have been better as Maelstrom pulses, as those kill creatures as well, and that seemed really relevant in the bant match up. I also missed the third Jitte in the creature matchups, and want one in the board.
Nighthawks were really good i wanted to go up 3 or 4. Gatekeepers were great but i wanted some flexible removal, and there were two games where the gatekeepers were delayed a turn by my 2 colourless lands.
Someone at this tournament asked if this was "the gate" from these forums, i said no, but this does have some similarities, however after looking at that thread and deck i have no idea how you ever kick a gatekeeper in that list, especially without Urborg or Dark Ritual. If i had problems with 2 colourless lands i have no idea how you kick them with 4 colourless lands. I'm still really happy with the Phyrexian Towers and i wouldn't cut them, it was just an inconvenience.
Contaminations were fine, but i wasn't locking out people early, it was more of a late game nail in the coffin thing, and there were a few decks where i didn't want them at all so i went down to 2 with the 3rd in the board.

So i changed up the list with what i wanted and put some pulses main, and cut some things:

4 Bloodghast
4 Abyssal Persecutor
3 Gatekeeper
3 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Dark Confidant

4 Bitterblossom
4 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Contamination
2 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Dark Ritual

8 Fetch lands
5 swamp
2 Bayou
2 Bojuka Bog
2 Phyrexian Tower
2 Urborg

SB

4 Leyline
2 Helm of Obedience
2 Sadistic Sacrament
2 Smother
1 Helm of Possession
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Contamination
2 Pernicious Deed

I like these changes, the flexibility and casting cost of the removal is a little better and an extra Nighthawk is great.

Tournament 2: 33 players

Round 1 vs GW Enchantress Beats

Ah the awesomeness of random cool decks in legacy. It is some sort of agro Enchantress thing with Yavimaya enchantress and other creatures for beat down, and all the usual accel and draw. He gets a ton of mana early and not much buisiness as i finish him off with a bunch of guys and a demon. Game two he goes Exploration into Troll Ascetic, then armadillo cloak and then an ancestral mask and other enchantments its a 13/12 lifelink trampler, i find a gatekeeper, but he found an argothian for the block the turn before, I die on turn 5, what a blow out. Game three i get some action and disruption and deal with his creatures, he doesn't draw much and i win easily. After the game he shows me the 4 Elephant Grass he boarded in, ouch, that could have been rough.

1-0

Round 2 vs NO Bant (Madrid List)

He gets down the turn 3 Progenitus after forcing some discard spells, he also has the extra creature for the block on gatekeeper. Game 2 he gets a counter top going on turn 2 and i never draw any removal.

1-1

Round 3 vs Zoo

Game 1 is pretty close but i fall a little short and he mops up with burn. Game 2 fast Demons are pretty hard to deal with when you can't find a swords. Game 3 he floods out in a ridiculous fashion and my dudes just eat him backed lots of removal.

2-1

Round 4 vs GW Landfall Agro

This was a really cool deck piloted by a friend of mine who moved away a few years ago and was just back for a week. It had all sorts of awesome things like Vinelasher Kudzu, Knights, Geddon and Crucible. It's something i want to work on in the near future as it has a ton of potential i think. His pridemages give me a lot of trouble as they blow everything relevant up, but Gatekeepers and nighthawks are pretty good here and so are Bitterblossoms acting like a force field. Helm of Possession single handedly won one of these and i take the match in three..

3-1

Round 5 vs Zoo

This round is vs Justin (from page 2 of this thread) We can't draw in as this should have been 6 rounds but the 33rd player came late from what i understand, so the computer initially said 5 rounds. Sucks to have to play a friend to make top 8. Game one he annihilates me in quick fashion, game two he gets no action going draws a ton of lands and a demon ends it. Game three is a tense affair as we both mull to 5, but luck was on my side and i get the win. Sort of lame that it didn't come down to epic plays but random luck.

4-1

Top 8 vs GWU Faerie/trinket agro

This deck was really cool it had Trinkets Spellstutters, Vcliques and war monks and goyfs, to go with muta vaults and the usual CB bant stuff.

Game one is pretty silly, i start on turn one ritual thoughtseize bob, he has no swords or force. Turn 2 ritual out a demon. So i pretty much got the best start ever however he top decked a force for the demon, then topdecked a swords for the bob. Frustrating. I sort of tilt a bit and stop paying attention and make a bunch of terrible plays and throw the game away in the later stages.
Game 2 he rips a force after a thoughtseize yet again, but i draw more action than him and we go to game 3.
We go back and forth and expend a bunch of resources to try and stop each other, i finally land a Deed i was holding on to and wipe his board for about 4 or 5 permanents. We are both in top deck mode and draw nothing for many turns, i draw a demon but he drew a Vclique the turn before and nabs it, he gets a goyf next and finishes me off.

So those are my mini reports and where the deck is at now. I really like the second list, i want to squeeze in another Helm of Possession for the board as it did win me a few games. I'm still not sure about Contamination, it locked out a few games but i'm not convinced it is better than other options, i know that is sort of silly considering it is the reason i built the deck, but i didn't assemble the lock early very much and some decks can work through it. The smoke stack idea is pretty interesting but i wonder if it is too slow as it essentially doesn't do anything for 2 turns, and with out other lock pieces to supplement it i'm not sure if it is going to get the job done. Maybe in the board? I sort of want another answer to Progenitus other than discard and gatekeepers.

Sorry to any of my opponents if i got the game descriptions wrong, 12 rounds in 2 days is a lot of magic and it sort of blurred together.

[Scopeye]

With BB+Bloodghast smokestack is very good but as you said it doesnt come online for 2 turns so it works best against matchups where you can create a board settlement where you just face each other off. So against gobos or zoo it is not the best but I find it to be great against CB-*****-Stax decks.

I don't run dark ritual maybe I should but I run 4 ancient tomb's to speed up smokestack/demon and I have been happy with them.

I also run 4 vampire nightmare in my list and I have to say I am very happy with them. They can stop any incoming pressure from a goyf, they demand removal, they can gain precious life.

Also I run 3-4 perishes in my SB. They have been HUGE for me. Becase sometimes you just can't race a zoo or double goyfs or a Progenitus. Also with increasing popularity of Bant they generally have Noble Hierarachs to save them from contamination lock or save a goyf from gatekeepers.

One last thing is I don't think I would ever go below 3 jitte's or 2jitte-1 SoFI because Bloodghast or BB tokens with equipments won me so many games. Jitte is especially brutal when you attack with a token then attach it to another token to block. It is one of the best ways to slowly roll your opponent or create a board settilment and slowly kill them.

[fourtykiller]

So i'm definitly loving the idea of this deck, just thought i'd share a list that i came up and will be giving some testing


4 Bloodghast
3 Abyssal Persecutor
4 Gatekeeper
4 Dark Confidant
3 vampire nighthawk

2 crucible of worlds
3 Bitterblossom
4 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Basilisk Collar
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Dark Ritual

2 bojuka bog
3 swamp
3 bayou
3 bloodstained mire
3 verdant catacombs
2 Phyrexian Tower
4 wasteland

sb
4 deed
4 k-grip
4 leyline
3 contamination

i think the deck has a lot of tools in it, but i think crucible's for wastelock and also to help recur ghasts are a good addition. and as was state before, nighhawks are ridiculous, i've played eva for a long time and can tell you first turn nighthawk is bomb, especially when running bob. I'm not sold on main deck contamination as it seems useless against a good amount of decks(it'd probably be a meta call). I do like green in there as it helps with sb and deeds are fancy.

[ReAnimator]

With BB+Bloodghast smokestack is very good but as you said it doesnt come online for 2 turns so it works best against matchups where you can create a board settlement where you just face each other off. So against gobos or zoo it is not the best but I find it to be great against CB-*****-Stax decks.

I don't run dark ritual maybe I should but I run 4 ancient tomb's to speed up smokestack/demon and I have been happy with them.

I also run 4 vampire nightmare in my list and I have to say I am very happy with them. They can stop any incoming pressure from a goyf, they demand removal, they can gain precious life.

Also I run 3-4 perishes in my SB. They have been HUGE for me. Becase sometimes you just can't race a zoo or double goyfs or a Progenitus. Also with increasing popularity of Bant they generally have Noble Hierarachs to save them from contamination lock or save a goyf from gatekeepers.

One last thing is I don't think I would ever go below 3 jitte's or 2jitte-1 SoFI because Bloodghast or BB tokens with equipments won me so many games. Jitte is especially brutal when you attack with a token then attach it to another token to block. It is one of the best ways to slowly roll your opponent or create a board settilment and slowly kill them.

I'm not sure if i would want ancient tomb's over rituals, this deck is already really damage heavy and there are a lot of cards it can't help you cast, seems like a liability if you don't have an urborg.

I can see the smokestacks in the board, but i wonder if you don't have better tools for fighting control.

I can see going up to 4 nighthawks, i was really happy with them too. It was more of a space thing for my second tournament.

Perishes are really good, and they've been in and out of my board for a while, my only problem with them is when you face something like gobos or merfolk and you want a more global sweeper, I've found deed to be just better, but the progenitus issue is very relevant for sure.

I agree Jitte is a beast, and i was happy to have the 3rd in the board for sure. My problem with having more in the main was cause of space, and also being irrelevant vs quite a few matchups. I think it's a meta thing whether you want the third in the main or not but you are probably right that it belongs in the main more often than not against more opponents.


So i'm definitly loving the idea of this deck, just thought i'd share a list that i came up and will be giving some testing


4 Bloodghast
3 Abyssal Persecutor
4 Gatekeeper
4 Dark Confidant
3 vampire nighthawk

2 crucible of worlds
3 Bitterblossom
4 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Basilisk Collar
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Dark Ritual

2 bojuka bog
3 swamp
3 bayou
3 bloodstained mire
3 verdant catacombs
2 Phyrexian Tower
4 wasteland

sb
4 deed
4 k-grip
4 leyline
3 contamination

i think the deck has a lot of tools in it, but i think crucible's for wastelock and also to help recur ghasts are a good addition. and as was state before, nighhawks are ridiculous, i've played eva for a long time and can tell you first turn nighthawk is bomb, especially when running bob. I'm not sold on main deck contamination as it seems useless against a good amount of decks(it'd probably be a meta call). I do like green in there as it helps with sb and deeds are fancy.

I think the crucible idea is really good, i think that is a solid direction to take the list. However i really think you cannot cut urborg, especially going up to 6 (!) colourless sources and still trying to run 4 gatekeeper. Urborg also lets you slow roll your bloodghast land drops so you can get them back whenever you want and not take extra damage.
The interaction of wasting your own Bog and bringing it back is really interesting. I think the contamination can go to the board for sure, as it was under performing for me as well.

I can't really condone running 7 pernicious deeds. =P
I also don't think it is what you are looking for in the main as it is dead in some matchups and destroys all your small casting cost permanents. I would run with Pulse for the main deck.

I think Basilisk Collar is just really inferior to Jitte for all the reasons i've listed earlier in the thread. (check the first post on the top of this page).

Persecutor has been incredible for me, and is the whole reason to run the deck, i wouldn't cut down to 3 especially over something like gate keeper.

I think over all even with crucibles you need at least 1 more land in there. You may have to cut a tower too, just cause of the colourless.

Agreed again on Nighthawks, they are awesome.

[Justin]

I'm not sure if i would want ancient tomb's over rituals, this deck is already really damage heavy and there are a lot of cards it can't help you cast, seems like a liability if you don't have an urborg.

I can see the smokestacks in the board, but i wonder if you don't have better tools for fighting control.

I can see going up to 4 nighthawks, i was really happy with them too. It was more of a space thing for my second tournament.

Perishes are really good, and they've been in and out of my board for a while, my only problem with them is when you face something like gobos or merfolk and you want a more global sweeper, I've found deed to be just better, but the progenitus issue is very relevant for sure.

I agree Jitte is a beast, and i was happy to have the 3rd in the board for sure. My problem with having more in the main was cause of space, and also being irrelevant vs quite a few matchups. I think it's a meta thing whether you want the third in the main or not but you are probably right that it belongs in the main more often than not against more opponents.



I think the crucible idea is really good, i think that is a solid direction to take the list. However i really think you cannot cut urborg, especially going up to 6 (!) colourless sources and still trying to run 4 gatekeeper. Urborg also lets you slow roll your bloodghast land drops so you can get them back whenever you want and not take extra damage.
The interaction of wasting your own Bog and bringing it back is really interesting. I think the contamination can go to the board for sure, as it was under performing for me as well.

I can't really condone running 7 pernicious deeds. =P
I also don't think it is what you are looking for in the main as it is dead in some matchups and destroys all your small casting cost permanents. I would run with Pulse for the main deck.

I think Basilisk Collar is just really inferior to Jitte for all the reasons i've listed earlier in the thread. (check the first post on the top of this page).

Persecutor has been incredible for me, and is the whole reason to run the deck, i wouldn't cut down to 3 especially over something like gate keeper.

I think over all even with crucibles you need at least 1 more land in there. You may have to cut a tower too, just cause of the colourless.

Agreed again on Nighthawks, they are awesome.

Now that you've cut tombstalkers and plan to move Contamination to the sideboard, I don't know if Contaminated Demons is the right name for the deck anymore. Upon first hearing of this deck, I thought that Contamination would be a star card, as a lot of top decks don't play black. Why has it underperformed for you? I didn't see many black decks in your tourney reports? Did you have trouble finding creatures to sac for it?

As for dealing with Progenitus, you might substitute your Contaminations and Pulses for something else that hits them. Innocent Blood might be good, as it is also another sac outlet for Abyssal. You also might consider going back to Smallpox if you are considering the Crucible route. Then again, I don't think you want to turn this into another Pox deck.

[ReAnimator]

Now that you've cut tombstalkers and plan to move Contamination to the sideboard, I don't know if Contaminated Demons is the right name for the deck anymore. Upon first hearing of this deck, I thought that Contamination would be a star card, as a lot of top decks don't play black. Why has it underperformed for you? I didn't see many black decks in your tourney reports? Did you have trouble finding creatures to sac for it?

As for dealing with Progenitus, you might substitute your Contaminations and Pulses for something else that hits them. Innocent Blood might be good, as it is also another sac outlet for Abyssal. You also might consider going back to Smallpox if you are considering the Crucible route. Then again, I don't think you want to turn this into another Pox deck.

Sorry for the slow reply. It was great playing you at the tourney, sorry about the bad luck in game three.

Contamination was fine, but it was always a nail in the coffin mid game thing, not an early shut you out thing. There are a lot of decks that can put you under a lot of preassure early and you have to try to establish a board presence before you set up the contamination. There were also some early games where it was too risky to try to lock someone just with a bloodghast as i would need to draw more land or a BBlossom in the next few draws to keep it going.
I always had to deal with creatures first and foremost before trying to lock them out. I'm fine with 2 in the deck and they did win me some games, it just happened a lot later than i originally thought it would. I'm waffleing on having them main or sideboard or just cut. I'm pretty sure i want some number of them.

I'm not sure i want Innocent Blood, and i definitely don't want Small Pox back, it just never did enough and was too situational. Is IBlood really better than just running edicts or smothers?
I think for progenitus i'm happy running my disruption and just going with the Perish's in the board. Another option is Disk over Deed, but it seems too slow and deed is so much better in other matches.

As for the name change LOL, though i think i'll stick with it for now.

[unicoerner]

I tested with this deck a few games. MY list is monoblack and without Bobs. I really like Bob, but in this list and with so many aggro decks around i am afraid of the life loss. Even without him i feeled the need to play Nighthawks.
About Contamination i think the same as you guys. It`s underwhelming early, but if we get it to stick midgame it`s prettymuch gg.

You guys did all cut Stronghold, why? Yeah it`s off colour, but we can go up to 3 Urborgs if we want to. Midgame it should be our 2nd best card!

[ReAnimator]

Stronghold for me was one colourless source too many. You could try the 3rd Urborg, i've thought about it a lot, legendary is lame though.

The thing that led me too cut Stronghold other than the colourless was that it was only good mid to late game and i wasn't really loosing too much there. There were just a lot of games where you would dominate early but stumbling on black was way worse than a late game effect.
I think if you aren't running confidants then it makes more sense, as you need more card advantage like you get out of recurring gatekeepers.

[Hawdes]

In my opinion, Recurring Nightmare would be better than Stronghold, in which it is yet another sacrifice outlet and even recurrs those Gatekeepers....
Way more efficient than Volrath's Stronghold imo.

[ReAnimator]

In my opinion, Recurring Nightmare would be better than Stronghold, in which it is yet another sacrifice outlet and even recurrs those Gatekeepers....
Way more efficient than Volrath's Stronghold imo.

How do you propose to pay the kicker on gatekeeper when using recurring nightmare? Also recurring nightmare doesn't tap for mana in the early game.

If you did want to go this route you could play fleshbag marauder, you have a lot of other things to sacrifice.

It would be interesting to explore Recurring nightmare with Bloodghast and Bitter, but i can't help thinking that you would eventually end up building around Nightmare a lot and at that point you might as well play combo or reanimator.

[Hawdes]

How do you propose to pay the kicker on gatekeeper when using recurring nightmare? Also recurring nightmare doesn't tap for mana in the early game.

If you did want to go this route you could play fleshbag marauder, you have a lot of other things to sacrifice.

It would be interesting to explore Recurring nightmare with Bloodghast and Bitter, but i can't help thinking that you would eventually end up building around Nightmare a lot and at that point you might as well play combo or reanimator.

Oh, yeah... Sorry. Not thinking straight when posting in the Gatekeeper case...
Although you wouldn't end up building the deck around Recurring Nightmare, it's just added to the list because it fits well. You don't have to modify the list all that much to make it work.
Maybe change the Gatekeeper of Malakir for Fleshbag Marauder, or something like that, which aren't that color demanding (BBB). Of course the Gatekeeper has more power, but I think that Recurring Nightmare deserves a thought. It doesn't have to be a 4 of to be any good.

[slylie]

Oh, yeah... Sorry. Not thinking straight when posting in the Gatekeeper case...
Although you wouldn't end up building the deck around Recurring Nightmare, it's just added to the list because it fits well. You don't have to modify the list all that much to make it work.
Maybe change the Gatekeeper of Malakir for Fleshbag Marauder, or something like that, which aren't that color demanding (BBB). Of course the Gatekeeper has more power, but I think that Recurring Nightmare deserves a thought. It doesn't have to be a 4 of to be any good.

marauder could be better, since we could easily sac bloodghast or a token to it, and its not targetted, which in some cases could be handy. Casting cost is easier to hit, and it has 1 more power than keeper. If you are playing RN it would be much better.

That said, playing RN makes it too tempting to put a few fat reanimator targets in there.

[RexFTW]

I agree Braids, Cabal Minion might fit in this deck very well. It works against decks that contamination does not work against and is just generally strong if she comes down early!