[SCD] AEther Tradewinds

[Maveric78f]

My first attempt to make a SCD thread worth it. This far (well this has been spoiled 1 or 2 days ago, so I'm not a genius neither), nobody reacted strongly to this card:


AEther Tradewinds 2U
Instant (C)
Return target permanent you control and target permanent you don't control to their owner's hand.

How can it be better than say "Stand/Deliver"? Here are some answers.

1/ Saves one of your permanents as an instant while still slowing down your opponent.
2/ Generates 1 land drop if played as a sorcery and thus nets you 1 mana of the amount/colour this land can produce.
3/ Particularly good in the DH combo where you want both to bounce the opponent's board and bounce Nucklavee. However, at this stage, you should have already won actually.
4/ Cool with CIP abilities. In particular, Vial@3 + Witness + This + 2U = 1 block each turn, 1 bounce each turn.
5/ Great with Stax: let's say you've got stax@2 in play and your opponent has 2 lands + 1 creature. Put the stax trigger on stack, bounce it + the opponent's creature. At your turn play Stax and keep it @0 until your opponent plays a permanent.
6/ can be useful with City of Traitor. Enables you to bounce it and play the lands you've drawn until now.
7/ Great with Tangle Wire
...

[citanul]

Great when my opponent plays Infernal Tutor, sacrifices LED and I bounce his Chrome Mox with this!

My point is that it is to narrow to be good. You try to abuse the fact that you can bounce something of yourself but how often is that going to be relevant? At a manacost of 3 it has to compete with Wipe Away and Rushing River not to mention other cards such as Echoing Truth.

I'll address your points in total:
1/ Saves one of your permanents as an instant while still slowing down your opponent.
Very corner case but probably the best of them. But if your opponent is putting pressure this won't suffice. You could've said: Block and before damage bounce blocker and attacker.

2/ Generates 1 land drop if played as a sorcery and thus nets you 1 mana of the amount/colour this land can produce.
Only if you don't have another land in your hand. Then it just puts you abck on mana development.

3/ Particularly good in the DH combo where you want both to bounce the opponent's board and bounce Nucklavee. However, at this stage, you should have already won actually.
Said it yourself, it's rather overkill. Other bounce is just better to stop hate before going off.

4/ Cool with CIP abilities. In particular, Vial@3 + Witness + This + 2U = 1 block each turn, 1 bounce each turn
The danger of cool things.

5/ Great with Stax: let's say you've got stax@2 in play and your opponent has 2 lands + 1 creature. Put the stax trigger on stack, bounce it + the opponent's creature. At your turn play Stax and keep it @0 until your opponent plays a permanent.
6/ can be useful with City of Traitor. Enables you to bounce it and play the lands you've drawn until now.
7/ Great with Tangle Wire
All Stax cards. Guess what colour Stax is most of the time? White, not Blue.

It even has more downsides to it than I just mentioned but I'll leave it at this.

[arebennian]

Is the ability to target things other than creatures worth the extra mana? See: Peel from Reality
If it comes with a cantrip, as the card was originally spoiled, then I would say yes.
As it stands now, probably not.

[Skeggi]

Why are we talking about 3cmc bounce? Comparing to Stand//Deliver doesn't exactly legitimize the arguments. It has to be compared to Rushing River, Wipe Away, Chain of Vapor and Echoing Truth. All of which are likely to be alot better and are at least alot less narrow.

[Maveric78f]

Not compared with Rushing River because it can bounce lands.
Not compared with Wipe away, because it's not the same casting cost.
Not compared with Peel From Reality because you want to bounce something else than creatures.
Not compared with others because of it's ability of bouncing lands with a single U in its cost.

Actually, I think that to have to bounce a permanent you control is an advantage in general. Because you can do both: protect your permanents and deal with annoying opponent's permanents. It looks interesting in merfolks for instance to save a lord, cantrip with Silvergil Adept and/or bounce a blocker/an annoying permanent.

[citanul]

Not compared with Rushing River because it can bounce lands.
Not compared with Wipe away, because it's not the same casting cost.
Not compared with Peel From Reality because you want to bounce something else than creatures.
Not compared with others because of it's ability of bouncing lands with a single U in its cost.

You can give a reason like that for every card.



Actually, I think that to have to bounce a permanent you control is an advantage in general. Because you can do both: protect your permanents and deal with annoying opponent's permanents. It looks interesting in merfolks for instance to save a lord, cantrip with Silvergil Adept and/or bounce a blocker/an annoying permanent.

Echoing Truth can also save my lord, it can also save my Adept for an extra draw. It can also bounce my opponent's nonland permanents. It just can't do it at the same time.

You give the example of Merfolk and anoying permanents. Let's say your opponent has a Moat. You bounce it and something of your own and attack!
How exactly is it better than a Echoing Truth in this situation? You don't want to bounce a creature of your own because you'll do less damage. Bouncing a land and replaying it nets you a mana! Guess what, Echoing Truth costs 1 less, the result is the same.

You are to baffled with the cool things that you can do with it that you re forgetting that the drawback will be mostly that, a drawback.

[Maveric78f]

Explain me how it is a drawback in the example you've just given. As you said yourself, it's exactly the same.

My point is that the drawback is ALWAYS very weak and in some particular occasions, this drawback can turn into a stronger advantage, if not game breaking.

And don't expect me to say anything against Rushing River which is a card I've defended and played MD in my tempo decks far before it became hype... exactly for the same reason I think AEther Tradewinds can be better than most commonly used bounces.

[citanul]

Explain me how it is a drawback in the example you've just given. As you said yourself, it's exactly the same

I stated it became the same for having that land open. It is not the same if you still have a land in hand or plenty of other moments.
let's say 2 Island, Mutavault in play Island in hand. Bounce with Echoing, drop island, animate Mutavault will do more damage than, play new card, play island, attack with 1 mana open.

[Skeggi]

This thread is either a troll, a brainfart, or it's actually serious (which I highly doubt) . Anyhoo, Mav, if you're actually serious, instead of naming instances where it might be ok - in what decks would you see this card being useful? And then, proxy that deck up, pull it through a gauntlet and give some results plx.

[Nihil Credo]

Not compared with Rushing River because it can bounce lands.

Other than getting rid of Maze/Glacial Chasm for a turn, bouncing lands for three mana is something that only a tempo-oriented game plan would want to do. But if it were that much tempo-oriented, it would play Hoodwink or Boomerang instead, rather than wait an extra turn just for the possibility of card advantage (in exchange for your own tempo!).

[Maveric78f]

Other than getting rid of Maze/Glacial Chasm for a turn, bouncing lands for three mana is something that only a tempo-oriented game plan would want to do. But if it were that much tempo-oriented, it would play Hoodwink or Boomerang instead, rather than wait an extra turn just for the possibility of card advantage (in exchange for your own tempo!).

Hoodwink is a joke I guess. The firs thing a tempo deck wants to do is to bounce blockers to alpha strike.

The best argument against AEther Tradewinds is that Rushing River can already do the same... and much more. And another argument against AEther Tradewinds compared to Rushing River is that all good tempo decks play at least wasteland and then can use them to get rid of annoying lands.

Let's say it was a brainfart, but I'm quite sure it's not as bad as some people seem to think.

[citanul]

It's not a bad card and it will be heavily played in limited. Maybe even in some constructed.
Just not as good as you made it out to be in your openingpost.

[eq.firemind]

Just found a nice interaction that could possibly fit in blue StaX:
AEther Tradewinds + Reality Acid.

[Skeggi]

Is that a troll? Tell me it's a troll.

[Maveric78f]

It looks good.

In addition to Stax and Tangle Wire, it looks quite useful. And Reality Acid is also an average good card for Stax.

[Skeggi]

Stax. Seriously? This 'combo' will not break this suboptimal deck.