[Deck] NQM - Not Quite Madness

[morgan_coke]

For clarity, I'll keep the most current decklist up here, above the original post, along with a day updated marker. This is by no means the definitive version of the deck. My playing strengths run much more towards board control decks than aggro/tempo/counter decks, so most of my personal testing is somewhat suspect and will yield subpar decklists in the long run. Thats a fancy way of encouraging others to test and post lists they've had success with.

NQM v1.3 2/2/10

Creatures
4x Bloodghast
4x Basking Rootwalla
4x Tarmogoyf
2x Wonder

Sorceries
4x Careful Study
4x Ideas Unbound
4x Cabal Therapy
3x Deep Analysis

Instants
3x Daze
4x Force of Will

Artifacts
4x Chrome Mox
1x Umezawa's Jitte

Enchantments
3x Seal of Removal

Lands
4x Wasteland
2x Cephalid Coliseum
4x Various Blue Fetches
3x Tropical Island
2x Underground Sea
1x Island

Current problems with the list: Cephalid Coliseum, Bloodghast, Wonder, and Tarmogoyf are all GY dependent. Basking Rootwalla is free, but often kind of sucks. 10 discard outlets, one of which is conditional on Threshold looks sketchy, but has not proven to be so in practice - so far. Seal of Removal has been working ok as blocker removal when coupled with wonder, but I can't shake the feeling its not quite good enough. Although it does do a number on Depths/Dreadnought/Tombstalker.



-------------------------------------------------------------Original post follows-------------------------------------------------------

The title refers to NQG, the original threshold decks, which were also known as NGQ - Not Quite Gro. The concept of this deck is to use madness powered dredge style threats and speed to get around counterbalance decks combined with thresh style counters and disruption to beat combo decks. Like with Team America, the whole thing is tied together by a cheap blue draw package. This is still a very raw deck, so I'll just post the initial list with some card choice explanations, initial testing results, and open it up to critique.

Original Concept List NQM v1.0

Creatures
4x Basking Rootwalla
4x Bloodghast
4x Tarmogoyf
2x Wonder

Instants
4x Daze
4x Force of Will
4x Thirst for Knowledge

Sorceries
4x Careful Study
4x Deep Analysis
4x Cabal Therapy
2x Life from the Loam

Lands
4x Wasteland
3x Misty Rainforest
2x Polluted Delta
2x Verdant Catacombs
2x Tropical Island
2x Underground Sea
1x Verdant Catacombs
2x Island
1x Forest
1x Swamp

Life from the Loam obviously looks a little out of place, but the thinking was that it would fuel bloodghast beats and provide endless wastelands. Everything else was chosen as a threat for a cc of free or for being tarmogoyf. Therapy + Force + Daze + Wasteland seemed like a good disruption suite, and has proven to be so. TfK was chosen to back up Careful Study as the second best available draw/discard spell. Brainstorm was excluded because it doesn't discard. Wonder was put in for old times' sake and for making Bloodghasts and Rootwallas get through.

Testing results:

What we found was that the deck wasn't as consistenly explosive as expected, primarily due to there not being any play remotely as good as T1 Careful Study, some additional discard outlets would be nice, and that lifegain was something the deck missed in several matchups. Also, Lftl wasn't impressive at all. And Wonder could be either game-breaking or very, very "meh".

To attempt to address these issues, the following changes were made in the deck: Chrome Mox was added for increased speed and explosiveness. Ideas Unbound was added to increase consistency and get discard powered cards discarded earlier. Umezawa's Jitte was added to help with creature fights and to provide lifegain and removal. The resultant changes yielded the following list:

Updated List - NQM v1.1

Creatures
4x Basking Rootwalla
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Bloodghast

Instants
3x Daze
4x Force of Will
3x Thirst for Knowledge

Sorcieries
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Careful Study
4x Ideas Unbound
3x Deep Analysis

Artifacts
4x Chrome Mox
3x Umezawa's Jitte

Lands:
4x Wasteland
3x Misty Rainforest
3x Polluted Delta
3x Tropical Island
2x Underground Sea
1x Island

Sideboard (experimental)
4x Ravenous Trap
4x Krosan Grip
3x Pithing Needle
4x Firemane Angel

The reworked deck was able to drop some copies of draw spells with the added presence of Ideas, while Chrome Mox meant the deck could get by with far fewer basic lands. The increased draw also made the fourth Daze the most sacrificiable card to fit in a third Jitte. Testing on this newer version is still in early stages but looks promising so far. Enough so that I figured I'd show this off and ask for feedback and critique. All ideas welcomed. Thanks.

[Uncoordinated]

Hey Morgan! You don't know me, but I followed your Slide remake decks for a while. It's unfortunate that the viability of great archetypes like Madness and Slide have gone to nothing lately. Madness' decline I mostly contribute to the fact that Goyf trumps Mongrel/Wurm.

Some comments:

Borrowing more from Dredge.. Putrid Imp? Madness needs a discard outlet, and Imp is discard on a stick. I have actually been tinkering with a list that incorporates black into a UG Madness list. I intially splashed because of Imp and Bloodghast, but I've found that Big Game Hunter helps nullify the anti-Wurm ( aka Goyf ). It's a great card to pack if you're running black in Madness. However, with a look at your list, it seems you'd be better suited to running less creature discard outlets.

I often find that four Careful Study is too much. Careful Study is the ancient tool of choice for effective CA in Thresh/Madness-style decks, but it comes off as a horrible topdeck. I have tested numbers ranging from 2 - 4, and three was the number I settled at.

Deep Analysis: Great discardable card, but I find it too slow most times. I would try to find a way to stick in the Brainstorms that most decks use. Probably starting by dropping a copy each of Study/Anal. Of course, you don't discard anything with Brainstorm.. so maybe not. However, I basically attempted to run the Thresh blue counter/dig suite with my own deck, and it doesn't fare too badly. Brainstorm is a good way to dig for your Rootwallas/Ghasts if there's nothing in sight.

Acceleration was one of the edges Madness had over Thresh back in the day. I like the Moxes. However, they used to work out really well because T1 Mongrel was possible, as that was our strongest T2 play without accel. The best the list above has is Ideas Unbound or Goyf. Except, T1 Goyf is probably still in Bolt range, and not scary at all. Or maybe Mox pitching something, Careful Study discarding Rootwalla/Ghast, then fetch into Underground Sea for Therapy? I dunno. My suggestions for 2 CMC slot here would be Mongrel or Oona's Prowler, but both are really kinda subpar in this day and age. Goyf outshadows them like nothing else.

Lack of spot removal? Big Game Hunter is my suggestion, as your Rootwallas/Bloodghasts kinda trade with everything else. And considering you maindeck Jitte. I just find that Jitte alone isn't enough, and it seems you'd run into a lot of issues if they end up walling out your Rootwallas/Bloodghasts.

Luls idea of the post: Psychatog? Pros: discard outlet, decent mid-/late-game, board presence, pitches to FoW/Mox really well, over the general CB/Top curve. Cons: over the general CB/Top curve ( slooooow ), horrible early game, loves to run into stuff since we don't have bounce.

I like the pseudo-Loam engine going with a large number of discardable cards to choose from. What are your thoughts on utility lands?

[jazzykat]

Have you looked at traditional lists that ran wild mongrel and werebere? IMO TfK may be out of place here.

[Uncoordinated]

Have you looked at traditional lists that ran wild mongrel and werebere? IMO TfK may be out of place here.

Mongrel and Werebear are outshadowed by Goyf. That's one of the main reasons Madness isn't viable anymore.

Thirst for Knowledge pitching random Moxen/extra Jittes is great. Instant-speed, digs well. The only thing is that it's 3 CMC, and the list posted doesn't run Stompy lands.

[Kangaxx]

Mongrel and Werebear are outshadowed by Goyf. That's one of the main reasons Madness isn't viable anymore.

Thirst for Knowledge pitching random Moxen/extra Jittes is great. Instant-speed, digs well. The only thing is that it's 3 CMC, and the list posted doesn't run Stompy lands.

I think he means in addition to Goyf.

[Tao]

I just played a few games with the list and was impressed. It performs very consistent, has a lot of diruption and a lot of ways to produce card advantage. Edit: I think Ghastly Demise would be a good addition. It is nearly 100% reliable in G1 and very fast and dealing with cards like Goyf, Lavamancer, Triblal-Lords is important.

[morgan_coke]

Did some more testing with the second list. Realized my testing isn't the greatest barometer because I'm actually not that great with counterspells. Noted many, many, many huge mistakes one - two turns after making them.

Love this decks' disruption, can just rip apart whatever anyone is trying to do. Thirst for Knowledge wasn't the most impressive card for me. But I think only having 8 draw/discard spells isn't enough. Still looking for more options there, preferably at the 1-2 cc slot and not Breakthrough (costs 3 if you want to keep Force).

Two random things I want to try out:

1) Rancor - works great with 'Goyf and does nice things with Bloodghast too. makes Rootwallas into 5/3 beats, which is a solid clock on its own. Also, really cheap.

2) Seal of Removal. I get the Ghastly Demise love, though I'm not sure how to fit it in. Seal is "free" (pay now, use later) and deals with all sorts of nonsense and plays great mind game tricks. Snuff Out is also interesting, but might be too life-prices. Seal also pumps 'Goyf if discarded.

While looking for another creature to work in the deck, I came across the Ashen Ghoul/Nether Shadow pair. Tried shoehorning them into a list. Came online way, way too late. Not the right deck for them.

Wonder probably needs to go back in so you can fly your little dudes over zoo/elfs/goblins/goyfs and kill opponents.

Deck also may be slightly land heavy with 20 lands/moxes and a curve that basically tops out at 2 (except for Tfk).

Daze also may be slightly better than Force here because it "recasts" bloodghasts in addition to countering a spell. At least I like casting Daze more than pitching a draw spell to FoW.

EDIT @ Uncoordinated:
Slide is still very good in Legacy and continues to perform well for me.

[claudio.r]

I've always been a great fan of madness, since the time of the t2 beast !

I was searching the net for some legacy madness decklists and i found some that used counter top and swords to plowshares, but a i think the black splash is the way to go. Splashing black we have access to removal, disruption, and bloodghast !

Again i say, without any testing, i would give a run to a list with snuff out, it's free and goes well with the concept of the deck. Playing snuff out it forces us to play jitte, but i think that's good either way.
I don't know about ideas unbound, i really dislike the card, i will try it, but i think i prefere ponder or something else in it's place.

Also, waterfront bouncer, what do you guys think about this guy ?

EDIT: Tombstalker can also be very good here, as you are throwing some cards to the graveyard...

[Dormant Seer]

Don't you find Bloodghast's inability to block super crippling at times ?
Wouldn't it be worth it to add more creatures to compensate this and avoid having too hard a time on defense against aggro ?

Dark Confidant and Oona's Prowler come to my mind.
The Confidant is much less mana hungry than Loam and, provided it stays on the board, it serves the same purpose as Loam.


Have you tried 1-2 Cephalid Coliseum ? It is a fine mid-game draw.

[morgan_coke]

Cephalid Coliseum. Wow I CANNOT believe I missed that. GREAT card. I think it replaces Thirst for Knowledge honestly. Its like Ideas Unbound on a land. Awesome pickup Dormant Seer. Thanks.

Also, in testing, I think I prefer Seal of Removal to Ghastly Demise. In no small part because seal pitches to force.

Claudio, Tombstalker is a nice idea, but you're so, so rarely going to have the BB to cast him that it kinda fall apart on closer inspection. And yes, another creature would be ok, but I don't think its necessarily necessary. Thresh style decks have done great for awhile now with 12ish creatures, and Bloodghast sort of counts as more than one creature because of its recursion. If it was color appropriate, the creature I'd be most interested in adding would be Jotun Grunt.

Bloodghasts inability to block comes up ocassionaly, but not often enough to matter. Usually they just all attack anyways, so they wouldn't be available for blocking anyhow.

[ReAnimator]

I'm sure you don't want to increase your dependance on the graveyard too much, but it seems like your potential for threshold is being wasted here. I could see adding some mongese in here, especially if you go with the wonder plan.

I think the suggestion of Putrid imp is pretty interesting in here if you go with the Rancors over wonder. It gives you a discard outlet and if rancored with thresh a 4/2 flyer isn't that shabby. Hapless Researcher is another option but probably way to weak.

[Phoenix Ignition]

I'd love to be able to fit 1-2 Foil in here. I'm a little surprised with only 8 madness things in the current version, is it almost worth it to cut them entirely? Basking Rootwalla just isn't the creature he used to be, and Bloodghast is easily stopped by any goyf. Rancor on him would be cool, but still, 4/1 doesn't kill a goyf.

I'll try to make a list up and edit it in this post later.

EDIT: List as Promised. This deck is so much fun to play it's ridiculous. I'm not sure if it's going to be better than anything but I've gotten some really sick plays with it.

First off I took out Cabal Therapy. That card is good with Bloodghast, but not good as the only discard spell in your deck. You don't know what's in their hand so the absolute best you can do is try to guess the best card of a specific archetype. Then I added 2 Foil because I think the card is awesome. It has had some good some bad games, but I like it at 2 right now. Gigapede is an awesome discard outlet, and late game win condition. I highly recommend him. Other than that I threw in an Intuition and Roar of the Wurm for giggles.

As for the rest the only thing I've had problems with is getting green mana. Chrome Moxing a green card is usually not very good, but if I hit a Tropical Island it's all good.


// Lands
1 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
2 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland
2 Flooded Strand
1 Island

// Creatures
4 Bloodghast
1 Gigapede
4 Basking Rootwalla
2 Wonder
4 Tarmogoyf

// Spells
3 Chrome Mox
2 Foil
4 Ideas Unbound
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Intuition
1 Roar of the Wurm
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Careful Study
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Deep Analysis

// Sideboard
2 Ghastly Demise
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Krosan Grip
4 Spell Pierce
3 Pithing Needle

[Dormant Seer]

While looking for another creature to work in the deck, I came across the Ashen Ghoul/Nether Shadow pair. Tried shoehorning them into a list. Came online way, way too late. Not the right deck for them.

I tried Nether Shadow in limited testing and found they were handy as hasty equipment carriers. However, they probably need some 20ish creatures to be reliable enough.
I'm more sceptical about the Ghoul since it is so conditionnal.


Another couple of cards I'm interested in here are first Drowned Rusalka. There's no Bridge from below to abuse it, granted, but if you start running utility 1/1s like Big Game Hunter I think it deserves a look.
Second is Golgari Thug. Fair to hardcast, provides goodies in the yard and randomly puts a good creature on top of the library.
Maybe both are just cute to my eyes, though...

[Shades]

Compulsive Research looks way better than Thirst for Knowledge imo, especially if you play some Life from the Loam. Maybe you could try a full ste of Loams and Mox Diamonds instead of Chrome Moxen...

[Zilla]

There aren't really enough lands to support Diamonds. The deck is already too light on threats and removal, in my opinion. If you're going balls to the wall aggro, the Loam engine seems really really out of place. The deck seems kind of schizophrenic right now. Cards like Rootwalla are only good if they're hitting the table early and with a stream of other threats to overwhelm the opponent. Cards like Chrome Mox support this strategy. Cards like Wasteland and Loam don't, really. If you're going to trade card advantage for speed (Chrome Mox), then you're ill-equipped to play the control role for more than a couple turns at the very most.

A decision needs to be made on whether you want to go the overwhelmingly fast aggro route backed by some disruption (in which case you need more threat density and some creature removal) or a slower more controlling route, in which case you might as well be playing Aggro Loam.

[Phoenix Ignition]

There aren't really enough lands to support Diamonds. The deck is already too light on threats and removal, in my opinion. If you're going balls to the wall aggro, the Loam engine seems really really out of place. The deck seems kind of schizophrenic right now. Cards like Rootwalla are only good if they're hitting the table early and with a stream of other threats to overwhelm the opponent. Cards like Chrome Mox support this strategy. Cards like Wasteland and Loam don't, really. If you're going to trade card advantage for speed (Chrome Mox), then you're ill-equipped to play the control role for more than a couple turns at the very most.


I disagree with parts of this. Loam is bad, but Wasteland itself has never been a card specifically designed for "slow" decks. After 4ish hours of testing with my list up there I noticed a few things. First, you only ever really need 2-3 mana, but you want land drops to bring back your Bloodghasts. A lot of the time you don't really need the land to make mana for you, so Wasteland and Cephalid Colisseum are both quite good. First turn Careful Study or Ideas Unbound is a very good play as you can dump some of your 8 discardable creatures, set up for a second turn Deep Analysis, or get your guys flying. After that you only really can play Goyf (not too difficult although honestly I was having troubles getting green mana with my manabase), pump Rootwalla, or drop equipments.

The point of it is that you don't need a high number of lands on board, so first turn Wastelanding is in my experience always the right play (gamble that they are mana screwed).

I think this deck has potential because it can use cheap spells like Study and Ideas to provide massive card advantage while turning the usual disadvantage into an advantage. It stays in the game against fast decks with quick Rootwallas and Goyfs, and you can win by flying Jitte carriers, or the less likely but still possible Intuition into 3 Bloodghasts, or Roar of the Wurm + Gigapede or just whichever of those you draw into.

Like I said though, the deck I posted is not quite tier 1, but far more fun to play than most decks I have. I'm biased though since UG Madness was/is my favorite deck of all time.

[Zilla]

Loam is bad, but Wasteland itself has never been a card specifically designed for "slow" decks.
I worded my post badly. I said that cards like Wasteland and Loam don't lend themselves to a quick strategy, by which I meant the two cards in conjunction. Wasteland recursion via Loam can be devastating but it's very very slow. Obviously decks like Goblins, Merfolk, and Sui Black have been complementing highly aggressive strategies with Wasteland for a long time. Sorry for the confusion.