Trying To Break Quest For Ula's Temple - BUG Serpent Quest

[Kangaxx]

Well, I fell in love with the card Quest For Ula's Temple, and I believe that it embodies an extremely broken effect for it's mana cost. I've seen other combo-ish versions trying to abuse this card and I see one fundamental flaw in them all. Not enough creatures. If you really want to build a successful Ula Temple deck, you undoubtably need a high creature density. This can be a good or bad thing. We don't want to run a bunch of random creatures just to make the card work, you need to run creatures that are basically good by themselves that you can actually hardcast, that's the trick. And speaking of broken enchantments, you guys saw what happened to Oath of Druids, right? Cheap enchantments that cheat things into play will always be considered either in the meantime or in the long run. Here's my first list that abuses Tolarian Serpent, an odd obscure card from Weatherlight, that just so happens to be the right creature type to be cheated into play with a Temple.

http://sales.starcitygames.com/cardscans/MAG_WWK/QuestforUlasTemple.jpg

http://sales.starcitygames.com/cardscans/MAGWEA/tolarian_serpent.jpg


BUG Serpent Quest.DEC

// Lands
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [A] Tropical Island
3 [DIS] Breeding Pool
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold
2 [A] Underground Sea
1 [B] Bayou

// Creatures
3 [FNM] Wild Mongrel
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [OD] Terravore
4 [WL] Tolarian Serpent
2 [JU] Wonder
2 [JU] Brawn
1 [JU] Genesis
3 [ARB] Lord of Extinction / Lhurgoyf (not sure which would be better)

// Spells
4 Quest For Ula's Temple
4 [CST] Brainstorm
3 [M10] Ponder
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [RAV] Life from the Loam

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 4 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [OD] Ghastly Demise
SB: 2 [LRW] Thoughtseize

The deck basically works by cheating into play a Tolarian Serpent with Quest For Ula's Temple, with either a Terravore, Lord of Extinction, Lhurgoyf, in play (Tarmogoyfs as well), then basically dump 7 cards in my yard every turn hopefully to land cards in my yard that feed my creatures, as well as give them flying and trample with Wonder and Brawn. Wild Mongrel is in there as a discard outlet, and Genesis and Volrath's Stronghold (coupled with Loam) are in the deck to recur creatures/lands that have the potential to beat face. Tolarian Serpent provides such a broken effect compared to alot of creatures and it comes out a 7/7 trample, flyer for U basically that makes all of your other creatures huger than him.

The deck is still in the testing stage, so any suggestions will be warmly welcomed. The main problem I've been having with the deck is mana acceleration and I was considering Mox Diamond which would be great with Loam, but I don't know what to cut. I'm debating over the slot of Lord of Extinction and Lhugoyf, yes the Lord gets bigger but I usually am able to get down four mana as opposed to five alot quicker in crucial moments, so it's still up in the air.

Let me know what you think of this particular combo! And any help will be greatly appreciated! Thanks. :smile:

[Uncoordinated]

Try Inkwell Leviathan.

Mongrel is a good beater, but not great considering Goyf is dropped for the same mana. Putrid Imp is faster.

Unfortunately, I see this pseudo-aggro/combo deck to be too slow. The problem lies within getting Quest online. You have to wait at least two of your own turns before you can start dropping dudes. The timing is right in that you can drop dudes during their end step, but if it gets owned sometime before the end step, there isn't really much you can do about it.

There's also a slight problem with getting the Quest in your hand. I would suggest tutors, but that would make the deck more combo-y. The critters look like they can hold their own, but I don't really see any benefit over running this list if you don't get the Quest up.

Unfortunately, if you change the list to revolve around cheating Inkwell Leviathan into play ( which I would suggest ), it would kinda nip the rest of your yard-oriented strategy in the bud ( LoE, Terravore, etc. ). On the plus side, you wouldn't get your ass kicked by the Dredge-oriented sideboards everyone packs :P.

[ktkenshinx]

Uncoordinated brings up an excellent point regarding the graveyard orientation of the initial decklist. It is slower than Dredge and Reanimator, but still succumbs to the same graveyard hatred sideboards that are rampant in the format. This is a serious weakness. While Tolarian Serpent is a cool idea, as is dumping incarnations into your graveyard, I do not think it is that effective. Or rather, it is not the most effective use of Ula's Temple. Consider it this way. Why not just use turn 1 Entomb-->Reanimate on the Serpent, and then tutor or draw into the Terravore's and Goyfs? That strategy would probably be faster and more efficient, and yet anyone that sees it would say it is wholly unviable.

That is not to say that the Quest is bad. It just is probably not the best use of this exciting card. While it may not be the most original plan, it probably remains the best: Grozoth fetching 4 Inkwell Leviathans. This takes advantage of the Quest's unique abilities as opposed to just cheating into play 1 solitary Serpent. Using Brainstorm, Ponder, Fetchlands, Divining Top, and so on, as well as a reasonable creature support base, you might be able to get Quest online by turn 4 or so. At that point, you would just play the control role while you dump Grozoth and 4x Inkwells into play over the next two turns.

The shrouded Inkwells will make quick work of your opponent, and you will be fully untapped to deal with any beasties or threats that the opponent plays. While this is purely theory, at this point, I believe that this is the most viable strategy for a Quest deck to take (short of the extremely awesome but totally unviable Conspiracy route).

-ktkenshinx-

[Kangaxx]

Mongrel is a good beater, but not great considering Goyf is dropped for the same mana. Putrid Imp is faster

Wild Mongrel is a better beater than Imp. Imp should only be considered when discard outlets are totally necessary, which it isn't in this deck, since I could always hardcast Wonder and Brawn to be chumpblocked.


Unfortunately, I see this pseudo-aggro/combo deck to be too slow. The problem lies within getting Quest online. You have to wait at least two of your own turns before you can start dropping dudes. The timing is right in that you can drop dudes during their end step, but if it gets owned sometime before the end step, there isn't really much you can do about it.

I don't fully understand what you're trying to say. A first turn Quest isn't always necessary. Usually having creatures in play before making Quest activations is ideal. Ponder and Bstorm help well enough to draw into them, and comboing off isn't necessary within the first few turns.


There's also a slight problem with getting the Quest in your hand. I would suggest tutors, but that would make the deck more combo-y. The critters look like they can hold their own, but I don't really see any benefit over running this list if you don't get the Quest up.


Like I said, this is not a balls to the wall combo deck, I'm willing to play Quest at my leisure, and Goyfs, Terravores, and Wild Mongrels seem to hold up well on their own, aside from the actual combo.


Unfortunately, if you change the list to revolve around cheating Inkwell Leviathan into play ( which I would suggest ), it would kinda nip the rest of your yard-oriented strategy in the bud ( LoE, Terravore, etc. ). On the plus side, you wouldn't get your ass kicked by the Dredge-oriented sideboards everyone packs :P.

Did you notice that my SB consists of mostly Pithing Needles and Krosan Grips? GY hate shouldn't be an issue unless it's maindecked.


Why not just use turn 1 Entomb-->Reanimate on the Serpent, and then tutor or draw into the Terravore's and Goyfs? That strategy would probably be faster and more efficient, and yet anyone that sees it would say it is wholly unviable.

Becuase that's not a necessary turn 1 play? Why on earth would you make a turn 1 play like that with 1 land in play? Playing the deck reanimator style just fills up useless slots, as well. And makes it more susceptible to removal since you'll be running silver bullets, etc. I also rather have a permanent that continuously has an effect over a one shot deal.


Uncoordinated brings up an excellent point regarding the graveyard orientation of the initial decklist. It is slower than Dredge and Reanimator, but still succumbs to the same graveyard hatred sideboards that are rampant in the format.

Do you not know what Krosan Grip and Pithing Needle do? I happen to run them in my SB.

[Uncoordinated]

Wild Mongrel is a better beater than Imp. Imp should only be considered when discard outlets are totally necessary, which it isn't in this deck, since I could always hardcast Wonder and Brawn to be chumpblocked.


If you're looking for efficient beats, in that case, you should run Oona's Prowler over Mongrel. You're not always going to have the cards to discard, and evasion is nice.



I don't fully understand what you're trying to say. A first turn Quest isn't always necessary. Usually having creatures in play before making Quest activations is ideal. Ponder and Bstorm help well enough to draw into them, and comboing off isn't necessary within the first few turns.



Like I said, this is not a balls to the wall combo deck, I'm willing to play Quest at my leisure, and Goyfs, Terravores, and Wild Mongrels seem to hold up well on their own, aside from the actual combo.


Sorry, I guess I should've taken into account that the deck doesn't revolve around Quest. Obviously that's clear now from your list as well as your response, but I just figured that your goal would be something combo-centric in order to really break Quest.



Did you notice that my SB consists of mostly Pithing Needles and Krosan Grips? GY hate shouldn't be an issue unless it's maindecked.

Relic is a popular choice now ( instant speed graveyard removal once it sticks, shrinks Goyf constantly ), and because of the non-combo nature of the deck, it's not guaranteed you will have an answer to Relic/Leyline/Crypt/Trap. Obviously you needn't fear the hate as much as something completely reliant upon yard hate like Dredge, but I was trying to suggest a shift in creature base from graveyard-oriented to more utility or efficiency with my suggestion of Inkwell Leviathan as your fatty.

[Kangaxx]

Relic is a popular choice now ( instant speed graveyard removal once it sticks, shrinks Goyf constantly ), and because of the non-combo nature of the deck, it's not guaranteed you will have an answer to Relic/Leyline/Crypt/Trap. Obviously you needn't fear the hate as much as something completely reliant upon yard hate like Dredge, but I was trying to suggest a shift in creature base from graveyard-oriented to more utility or efficiency with my suggestion of Inkwell Leviathan as your fatty.

Relic is dead versus an early pithing needle and the instant speed factor is irrelevent since Krosan Grip is a split second spell. I'd also like to point out that Leyline shouldn't be an issue since this deck isn't dredge that has one land in play at all times and the rest discard/dredge spells. This deck actually functions more efficiently against GY hate since I will have lands in play to cast Grip, without putting any relevent cards in my yard in the meantime.

[Uncoordinated]

Relic is dead versus an early pithing needle and the instant speed factor is irrelevent since Krosan Grip is a split second spell. I'd also like to point out that Leyline shouldn't be an issue since this deck isn't dredge that has one land in play at all times and the rest discard/dredge spells. This deck actually functions more efficiently against GY hate since I will have lands in play to cast Grip, without putting any relevent cards in my yard in the meantime.

Listen man, I'm not trying to pick apart your deck/card choice. I was just merely stating that you happen to run a stategy that is oriented around the yard, which is commonly hated upon. The other point I was trying to make is that if you want to break Quest for Ula's Temple, you need a deck that can actually beat a large number of the field. As it stands, you run 3/4 of the typical Thresh counter/dig suite, minus some key tempo cards - Daze, Snare/Pierce, Fire/Ice in Canadian, Stifle/Waste.

I wouldn't say that your decklist isn't interesting to look at, or that it's not viable, but in my opinion, you'll either get rolled by aggro early, or stalled by control. You don't run enough of the tempo element that aggro-control lists boast to combat being overwhelmed early or stalled indefinitely.

I feel that I've been going back and forth between two different points for the duration of this little discussion. So here is my problem with your deck: you seek to break Quest for Ula's Temple, then discard it as an auxiliary play for your game plan. How is that breaking Quest for Ula's Temple, and what makes it better than other lists that run blue's omnipresent counter suite and omnipresent Goyf?

[rufus]

Let's take a look at what sort of interesting creatures exist in the suitable tribes:

Deep Sea Kraken
Grozoth -> Grozoth Inkwell Leviathan seem to be the only good choices.
Inkwell Leviathan
Kederket Leviathan
Nemesis of Reason
Sandbar Serpent
Simic Sky Swallower
Taniwha
Tolarian Serpent
Wrexial, The Risen Deep

All of the Changelings
Mistform Utimatus (Almost a changeling)

Cards that you can use to cheat other stuff into play (probably not worthwhile):
Artificial Evolution (Probably not worthwhile)
Belbe's Portal (Alternative to cheat things into play)
Conspiracy
Cryptic Gateway

...

You can fill the deck with cards like Raven Familiar, Court Hussar, and Mulldrifter, but I just don't see this being at all worthwhile.

[ktkenshinx]

I don't fully understand what you're trying to say. A first turn Quest isn't always necessary. Usually having creatures in play before making Quest activations is ideal. Ponder and Bstorm help well enough to draw into them, and comboing off isn't necessary within the first few turns.
This strategy turns your deck into a subpar midrange UG deck. You have the standard force of beaters, but your deck is less focused then Threshold, Countertop, and so on. At the point in time where you "combo off", you have already either lost the game, or are in a position where the serpent is going to be less than useful, or you are already winning. Grafting Quest into a midrange build does not make a new archetype. It just distorts an old one.

Did you notice that my SB consists of mostly Pithing Needles and Krosan Grips? GY hate shouldn't be an issue unless it's maindecked.

Do you not know what Krosan Grip and Pithing Needle do? I happen to run them in my SB.
Perhaps you should pay attention to how graveyard hate works before offering sarcastic comments. Ichorid's sideboard is dedicated to stopping hate. It runs Needles, Chains, Wispmares, Ingot Chewers, Nix's, FoW's, Unmasks, and so on in spades. Yet, that deck often runs into serious problems against hate, DESPITE its overemphasis on counter-hatred cards. Just because a sideboard includes some answers to common GY hate cards, does not make the deck invulnerable to said cards.

Becuase that's not a necessary turn 1 play? Why on earth would you make a turn 1 play like that with 1 land in play? Playing the deck reanimator style just fills up useless slots, as well. And makes it more susceptible to removal since you'll be running silver bullets, etc. I also rather have a permanent that continuously has an effect over a one shot deal.
You are missing the point. The point is that Serpent is a bad dredger and a subpar creature. The strategy that results from its inclusion is not abusive of Quest.

The main point that I, and the other posters are getting at, is that this deck does not "break" Quest for Ula's Temple, as the title of the post implies it will. It does not even abuse the Quest. It uses it as a secondary, or even tertiary, win condition. You have essentially constructed a midrange aggro/control hybrid with only 4 instances of countermagic (FoW) and 2 instances of board control (Explosives). Indeed your sideboard seems to be aware of this deficiency, as it is packed with cards that improve those dismal counts. I am not saying that the deck in its present form is weak, and that it can be improved into a better form. I am saying, much more harshly, that this approach to a Quest deck is inherently flawed from the start.

You have this excellent card that cheats creatures into play, and you correctly identify its power. You also identify the necessity of running creatures alongside Quest (although your choice of creatures is disappointing, at best). From there, however, the deck goes a bit downhill. This deck does a lot of cool things and has a ton of neat interactions. But that is the problem. It is dangerously cool and neat. The concept is not effective. Just interesting.

Consider it this way. What if you ditched the Quests and the Serpents and just put in Golgari Grave Trolls. What would change in your current deck? You would have more slots, you would be able to dredge more cards into your yard, and you would not have to rely on so many cards to get the "combo" working. Of course, the idea of dredging Brawn/Wonder/etc. into your yard in tandem with a UG midrange aggro strategy is just plain strange. Just as we would not find this strategy effective, so too should we not find Quest/Serpent synergy effective.

I apologize for being harsh on this, but your posts are indicating a strong and slightly irrational attachment to your Tolarian Serpent/Quest idea. The criticisms raised have been quite valid, and yet they are continually dismissed or explained away. If your words are all true, then we all must believe that this deck is tier 1 material already; it has a good aggro and control matchup, can deal with GY hate, has a powerful finish, has lots of strategies, etc. Of course, none of that is true, but your posts make it sound as if it is.

As Rufus says, the best bet remains Grozoth and Inkwell Leviathan. It is the least vulnerable plan, has the most synergy with the Blue Control archetype, and does not involve graveyards.

-ktkenshinx-

[Willoe]

Congregation At Dawn comes to mind, but it is a very casual card, I believe. I'd love to see this deck as established as QfUT _is_ a cool card. But still, it's just a _cool_ card, sadly :frown: