can you say Bye Bye Reserved List...Hopefully

[Dan Turner]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=218662

As it shows there Wizards is reprinting Phyrexian Negator a card that is on the reserved list.

So is there going to be an announcement soon about a change in policy concerning the reserved list.

[Julian23]

This is getting me all excited. Until now they put forward the policy of only reprinting reserved cards in non-comercial (read: Judge / Player Reward Promos) ways. Reprinting Negator in a Duel Deck seems like breaking their own rules for the good of humanity! Hooray!

[MMogg]

How can anyone read that tiny tiny tiny image? Wow. My eyes suck, I know, but I can't see any text clearly. Yeah, well, I wouldn't be surprised if they can get around the reserve list through specially released products such as this. I don't think they'll be putting reserve list cards into actually newly released sets, though. Apples and oranges.

[Finn]

Can we all agree that Wizards has been working towards this for a long time? I know that I have felt that it is only a matter of time until it happened. I think this means that we can expect more support for Legacy down the road. If you believe my article last month it seems perfectly reasonable to reprint even powerful cards from past sets. The long term effect of this should be better access to Legacy staples.

[Zlatzman]

They might just say that the foil-card in a duel-deck is a promo, and as such printing it does not break the reserved list? Or am I misunderstanding something?

[Dan Turner]

They might just say that the foil-card in a duel-deck is a promo, and as such printing it does not break the reserved list? Or am I misunderstanding something?


All policies described in this document apply only to non-premium, tournament-legal Magic cards. Wizards of the Coast has and may continue to print special versions of cards not meant for regular game play, such as oversized cards.

Negator is meant for regular game play so is in direct violation of the reserved list.

[MMogg]

Can we all agree that Wizards has been working towards this for a long time? I know that I have felt that it is only a matter of time until it happened. I think this means that we can expect more support for Legacy down the road. If you believe my article last month it seems perfectly reasonable to reprint even powerful cards from past sets. The long term effect of this should be better access to Legacy staples.

Yeah, because Negator based decks are T8ing everywhere. Sorry, I hate sarcasm but you've driven me to it (:wink::tongue:) with false hope. Seriously though, one not played card reprinted as a foil (presumably) in a special deck does not make this a trend for printing Legacy staples.

I'm not for this printing foils = more cards in circulation theory. I have been desperately trying to get my hands on Survival of the Fittests for months now and I can't seem to get them. The price for Survivals when I started looking (by MOTL) was around $11 and now it's over $13, and in between those times there has been the release of the promo judge foil. If this is their plan for alleviating Legacy woes, it's too slow and doesn't seem to have the desired effect.

Hell, cards not even on the reserve list are not being printed. Instead of Negator, why don't they put Wasteland in there? It's an UC, and not on a reserve list and would add some non-premium into the market. Or Force of Will, another card desperate for non-foil reprint. They really missed the boat by not printing that in the Ice Age reprints. That would shift large quantities of their lousy pre-con product and make players happy: win-win.

[Aggro_zombies]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! The price of my foil Negator playset will sink through the floor! Damn you, Wizards! I thought you were supposed to be helping collectors like me?!

Just kidding. Great news

[DownSyndromeKarl]

why do we always have this conversation? Special Promotional Product. No Violation of Reserved List. These cards are not going to be anymore legal in any format now that they're being printed in a Special Promotional Product. Can this thing get locked before my brain esplodes.

[stuckpixel]

Read the Reserve list: http://www.wizards.com/magic/tcg/article.aspx?x=magic/products/reprintpolicy

Here's the applicable quote:
"Wizards of the Coast has and may continue to print special versions of cards not meant for regular game play, such as oversized cards."

This Negator is black bordered, and thus intended for regular game play. Violation of Reserve list.

I hope this is the beginning of the end for that antiquated list.

[Mayk0l]

Oh Noos!
What if...
..Reprint..
Black Lotus..

Secondary.. Market..

Blabla

[Doomsday]

All policies described in this document apply only to non-premium, tournament-legal Magic cards. Wizards of the Coast has and may continue to print special versions of cards not meant for regular game play, such as oversized cards.
Negator is meant for regular game play so is in direct violation of the reserved list.

Relevant section bolded, not sure why this is being misinterpreted.

[plus_ten]

The reserve list WAS designed to safeguard value of the cards to collectors. However, as players, we have sunk significant value into constructing powerful legacy decks. While there is a distinction between collectors and players, card value should still hold true as long as one owns or is considering purchasing the cards.

I think they are testing the waters with this particular reprint. Negator no longer hold a significant value and has not been viable since... Red Death in 2005?

Just out of interest: perhaps someone can create a poll on the opinion of legacy players (I assume most of the people here would be) on the reserve list? And more specifically, reprints of powerful/expensive legacy staples?

[DrJones]

This is awesome news. Now, if they had broken the rule just in time for the Sliver deck... :frown:

[Otter]

Hell - fucking - yes. Even if they don't abolish the reserved list and claim it's the foil loophole, this is still a monumental event. Been looking forward to this for a long time.

[MattH]

Read the Reserve list: http://www.wizards.com/magic/tcg/article.aspx?x=magic/products/reprintpolicy

Here's the applicable quote:
"Wizards of the Coast has and may continue to print special versions of cards not meant for regular game play, such as oversized cards."

This Negator is black bordered, and thus intended for regular game play. Violation of Reserve list.

I hope this is the beginning of the end for that antiquated list.

What the fuck do the borders have to do with it? White bordered would work too. Silver wouldn't, I guess.

They have printed reserved-list cards with regular magic backs and black borders many times already. They're called Judge Foils. The reprint policy specifically makes an exception for "premium cards" (which is Wotc's official term for foils). If the Negator is foil, they have not broken their policy. If it isn't, they have. That is the one and only hinge. The innovation here would be putting a foil version of a reserved list card in a product meant for individual purchase, but as long as the Negator is foil, they have NOT broken their reprint policy.

Oversized cards are given as one example of something they might do. It is not an exhaustive list.

[Solaran_X]

It has always been my understanding that a card that is present on the Reserved List can be reprinted in one of two ways.
A) It can be "reprinted" on MTGO, since there is little or no relation between MTG and MTGO value-wise. Plus all of the cards on the Reserved List never existed in MTGO prior to "reprinting" (including promos like the MTGO Braingeyser).
B) It can be reprinted as a promotional card that is not sold. This means any card on the Reserved List could be reprinted as a Judge Reward or Player Reward card. These cards are given away, not sold, and as such the Reserved List does not apply to them.

Point B was pointed out during the run-up to From the Vault: Exiled, when Wizards said explicitly that the Reserved List would apply to the Vault boxed sets, further implying that anything made for-profit has to adhere to the Reserved List.

With the inclusion of Phyrexian Negator in a "made for profit" (IE - intended to be sold by stores) product, the Reserved List has been officially violated. Now we need to wait for comment from one of Wizard's talking heads about why.

MattH: If Phyrexian Negator being foil means the Reserved List remains unviolated, then can you explain why it was emphasized that FTV: Exiled would print no cards on the Reserved List? As foils, using your logic, they could have printed 15 cards on the Reserved List without breaking it.

Here is the relevant quote from a previous Arcana ( http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/arcana/149 ):

"Sorry about that. Normally, we try not to judge you. Not to your face, anyway. The point is: this is the complete list of cards that have been banned in any format, not counting cards that have only been banned in Magic Online-specific formats. And this doesn't incorporate any cards that might be banned when we announce the March 20 Banned and Restricted List update tomorrow. Oh, and there's one more thing: the cards in italics are the ones that are on the Reserved List, which means they’re not in From the Vault: Exiled."

[MattH]

It has always been my understanding that a card that is present on the Reserved List can be reprinted in one of two ways.
A) It can be "reprinted" on MTGO, since there is little or no relation between MTG and MTGO value-wise. Plus all of the cards on the Reserved List never existed in MTGO prior to "reprinting" (including promos like the MTGO Braingeyser).
Also note that these MTGO cards are not eligible for redemption.


B) It can be reprinted as a promotional card that is not sold.
Where are you getting the "cannot be sold" part from? It's sure not anywhere in the actual wording of the policy. (http://www.wizards.com/magic/tcg/article.aspx?x=magic/products/reprintpolicy) They haven't done it yet but there is nothing in the policy to exclude it from happening. All the policy says is that these cards will be either:
A) never reprinted
B) reprinted as premium (foil), tournament-legal cards (example: judge foils)
C) reprinted as non-tournament-legal cards (example: oversized cards)

The policy says nothing at all about what Wizards will do with any cards of type B or C. They can give them away, sell them, or burn them for fuel if they like., all without violating the reprint policy.



MattH: If Phyrexian Negator being foil means the Reserved List remains unviolated, then can you explain why it was emphasized that FTV: Exiled would print no cards on the Reserved List? As foils, using your logic, they could have printed 15 cards on the Reserved List without breaking it.

Here is the relevant quote from a previous Arcana ( http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/arcana/149 ):

"Sorry about that. Normally, we try not to judge you. Not to your face, anyway. The point is: this is the complete list of cards that have been banned in any format, not counting cards that have only been banned in Magic Online-specific formats. And this doesn't incorporate any cards that might be banned when we announce the March 20 Banned and Restricted List update tomorrow. Oh, and there's one more thing: the cards in italics are the ones that are on the Reserved List, which means they’re not in From the Vault: Exiled."

Yes, they could have printed 15 reserved list cards in FTV:Exiled. The wording of their policy would permit that. They chose not to, probably to honor the spirit of the policy as well.

[Solaran_X]

So, to put this into an extremely extreme case, you're saying Wizards of the Coast could choose to print the Power 9, all 40 Duals, Balance, Demonic Tutor, Wheel of Fortune, Illusionary Mask, Mana Vault, Library of Alexandira, Bazaar of Baghdad, Mishra's Workshop, Mishra's Factory, Mana Drain, The Abyss, Maze of Ith, Oath of Druids, Tolarian Academy, Memory Jar, Grim Monolith, Mind Over Matter, Powder Keg, and anything else as foils, package them, and ship them to vendors to sell as 15 card packs at MSRP and not violate the Reserved List simply because the reprints are foil?

[MattH]

So, to put this into an extremely extreme case, you're saying Wizards of the Coast could choose to print the Power 9, all 40 Duals, Balance, Demonic Tutor, Wheel of Fortune, Illusionary Mask, Mana Vault, Library of Alexandira, Bazaar of Baghdad, Mishra's Workshop, Mishra's Factory, Mana Drain, The Abyss, Maze of Ith, Oath of Druids, Tolarian Academy, Memory Jar, Grim Monolith, Mind Over Matter, Powder Keg, and anything else as foils, package them, and ship them to vendors to sell as 15 card packs at MSRP and not violate the Reserved List simply because the reprints are foil?
Read the freakin' policy, and you'll see that yes, they COULD do this. They won't, because it would be a terrible idea, but they left themselves a loophole.

[DownSyndromeKarl]

why is it so hard to understand?

[dahcmai]

Interesting, I wonder why they decided this now and not before they decided not to do this with the Sliver Queen. Such a perfect opportunity to slide that into the Slivers All Foil Deck.


I own several Lotuses and a bunch of other stuff on the list and even I am glad they decided this. It's always been possible, though they have been skirting it over and over as if afraid of the backlash. Now if they would stop picking cards that aren't real useful outside of standard in the first place. Do the damned duals already or give us our Foil Force of Will. Shit, I've been waiting for that one for ages.

[DownSyndromeKarl]

No one has said that the picture is not a picture of a Negator Totem anyway. Literally, I'll put a bet on it with someone. I really doubt it's a Negator.

naw dude, thats totally Phyrexian Negator. A) It's black. B) It has words in the same place as Phyrexian Negator. C) Do you really think they're going to put Negator Totem as the alternate art foil rare for this set?

[andrew77]

Gah. Why don't they just work on making good upcoming sets instead of screwing with the reserved list. I still can't get over how terrible recent sets have been from a design standpoint.

[Matt Blackburn]

What the fuck do the borders have to do with it? White bordered would work too. Silver wouldn't, I guess.

They have printed reserved-list cards with regular magic backs and black borders many times already. They're called Judge Foils. The reprint policy specifically makes an exception for "premium cards" (which is Wotc's official term for foils). If the Negator is foil, they have not broken their policy. If it isn't, they have. That is the one and only hinge. The innovation here would be putting a foil version of a reserved list card in a product meant for individual purchase, but as long as the Negator is foil, they have NOT broken their reprint policy.

Oversized cards are given as one example of something they might do. It is not an exhaustive list.



fucking thank you.

[Pastorofmuppets]

Do are you guys all trolling, or do you seriously not understand the reserve list? It's basically a list of cards that can't be reprinted in sets that will be T2 legal. When you lo0ok at it that way, it's easier to shut up about the reserve list and just pay the price for things you want. If you're not willing, don't get them. Someone else will. All of this "blah blah reserve list blah blah" crap every month or so gets on my nerves.

[dahcmai]

It's kind of nice to see them do this actually. Too bad it's not standard legal.

Ninja Edited, I didn't actually read the text and then did and realized yes, it really is a Negator.


Be cool as hell to make one of these Duel decks like Kami's vs Myr's or some useless shit so that everyone hates the idea of Kamigawa crap coming back and then put foil Forces in it. And print it on April Fool's Day.

[Anusien]

What the fuck do the borders have to do with it? White bordered would work too. Silver wouldn't, I guess.

They have printed reserved-list cards with regular magic backs and black borders many times already. They're called Judge Foils. The reprint policy specifically makes an exception for "premium cards" (which is Wotc's official term for foils). If the Negator is foil, they have not broken their policy. If it isn't, they have. That is the one and only hinge. The innovation here would be putting a foil version of a reserved list card in a product meant for individual purchase, but as long as the Negator is foil, they have NOT broken their reprint policy.

Oversized cards are given as one example of something they might do. It is not an exhaustive list.
Being foil does not give them license to ignore the reserve list at the moment. They intentionally shied away from putting Reserve List cards in FTV: Exile.

What I imagine they'll do is scale back the Reserve List. It was only ever meant to protect the value of expensive cards. So maybe they'll say, "All these cards under $10 that suck, we take them off the list. In exchange, these expensive cards, we will never reprint, even in a promotional form."

[Sims]

As someone who enjoy playing Legacy, wants other people to be able to play Legacy, and knows not everyone can afford an easy $1,000 for their deck... Personal opinion is to scrap the reserve list and start reprinting the cards that we actually need reprinted if they want to continue major support for our format. I don't want an all premium Legacy Booster set, fuck that. I don't want everything in my deck to be english, bb non foils...except for the manabase cause the only blue duals I could afford came from all foil booster packs. We need non-premium reprints of the staples otherwise the format will begin losing this head of steam and popularity it's built up. Most of the original a/b/u/r duals are going to hold their value anyways because they're the originals, they're the old ones, those are the things collector's want. New framed duals are the things necessary for players to get into legacy without having to spend community college level tuition on a deck. I know a large contingent of players who would love to play this format, but they can't afford to...Jund is a lot cheaper to build and play in FNMs than it is to build Bant Thresh, so that's where they stay.

This format needs that ancient gentlemen's agreement to go away.

[majikal]

I think one of the reasons they have kept the Reserve List for such a long time is that most of the cards on it have stayed within the realm of "collectible only" for a vast majority of the list's existence. Now that Legacy is becoming more and more popular, with more GPs and 10k events supporting it as an actual, competitive format, they are beginning to realize that these cards aren't just collectibles anymore; they're needed in order to sustain the game.

If anything, this is an act of testing the waters. They tried a secondary market price experiment with Berserk in FTV:E, which only took a small hit and isn't even competitive. Now they are trying a collector-base experiment: put a card that is on the Reserve List into a retail set and watch the response by collectors. If there's not an immediate backlash from a majority (or even a large minority) of their customer base, then it is safe to say they will probably do away with the list altogether, or at least abridge it to the point where only cards that were solely* printed in ABU, Arabian Nights, Antiquities, and maybe Legends are off limits.

*solely, meaning cards that have not been reprinted since their original appearances in these sets. This leaves things like Dual Lands open for reprint since they were in Revised.

[psu42]

We don't NEED anything reprinted. Stop being cheap and spend some cash for some cards. If you can't, don't play, the end. Legacy isn't meant for cheap 10 year old whiners.

[MattH]

Being foil does not give them license to ignore the reserve list at the moment.

Where are you getting this from? Because I can point you to the exact sentence where they say "[the reserved list] only applies to non-premium cards".

Am I alone here in actually reading what they said? Is everyone else just picking their own fantasy version of the reprint policy and basing their opinions off that? Because that sounds like fun and I want to know if I'm missing out.

@majikal: thank you for injecting some sense here.

[evilgorrilaz]

If anything, this is an act of testing the waters. They tried a secondary market price experiment with Berserk in FTV:E, which only took a small hit and isn't even competitive. Now they are trying a collector-base experiment: put a card that is on the Reserve List into a retail set and watch the response by collectors. If there's not an immediate backlash from a majority (or even a large minority) of their customer base, then it is safe to say they will probably do away with the list altogether, or at least abridge it to the point where only cards that were solely* printed in ABU, Arabian Nights, Antiquities, and maybe Legends are off limits.

*solely, meaning cards that have not been reprinted since their original appearances in these sets. This leaves things like Dual Lands open for reprint since they were in Revised.
I agree that this is probably testing the waters, but I don't think its to get rid of most of the reserved list. Because of how the secondary market reacted to Berserk in FTV:Exiled, WotC can probably say that anything they reprint in smallish quantities like duel decks (avaliable only in english right?) won't affect the price for collectors that much anyways. Then again, this is the first time they are doing this, so it might be different with hot legacy cards like dual lands.

[Otter]

Where are you getting this from? Because I can point you to the exact sentence where they say "[the reserved list] only applies to non-premium cards".

Am I alone here in actually reading what they said? Is everyone else just picking their own fantasy version of the reprint policy and basing their opinions off that? Because that sounds like fun and I want to know if I'm missing out.

@majikal: thank you for injecting some sense here.

When Ken Nagel was discussing inclusions for the sliver precon (official title: Premium Deck Series: Slivers), he stated that Queen was out because it was on the reserved list. There are specific quotes that support foil loophole, as well as quotes that contradict that stance, so it's kinda pointless to cite them as evidence. It's all well and good to say that it only applies to non-premium cards, but then it takes some convoluted logic to explain how a product that defines itself as "premium" doesn't count. It really doesn't make much sense and we're just going to have to wait for an official statement on this one to find out what their current position is.

[umbowta]

Where are you getting this from? Because I can point you to the exact sentence where they say "[the reserved list] only applies to non-premium cards".

Am I alone here in actually reading what they said? Is everyone else just picking their own fantasy version of the reprint policy and basing their opinions off that? Because that sounds like fun and I want to know if I'm missing out.

@majikal: thank you for injecting some sense here.

I'm totally with you on this MattH. It's only too obvious that they left themselves this loophole intentionally (as I too would have done if I wrote the policy) in order to be able to do what they want with premium reprints. Not reprinting the Sliver Queen and citing the reserved list as the reason does not contradict the policy at all. They were merly pointing out the reason for their choice. Had they chosen to print the Queen they would have cited the policy stating that they have the right to reprint anything they want in premium form.

[MattH]

When Ken Nagel was discussing inclusions for the sliver precon (official title: Premium Deck Series: Slivers), he stated that Queen was out because it was on the reserved list. There are specific quotes that support foil loophole, as well as quotes that contradict that stance, so it's kinda pointless to cite them as evidence. It's all well and good to say that it only applies to non-premium cards, but then it takes some convoluted logic to explain how a product that defines itself as "premium" doesn't count. It really doesn't make much sense and we're just going to have to wait for an official statement on this one to find out what their current position is.

Did he say they COULDN'T reprint it because of the reserved list, or they WOULDN'T? It makes a big difference, and in the absence of a definitive statement (and leaving open the possibility of a misstatement; Nagle is a more or less recent hire and may not necessarily have been intimately familiar with that particular company policy) we have to go with the wording given in the policy.

[Finn]

Yeah, because Negator based decks are T8ing everywhere. Sorry, I hate sarcasm but you've driven me to it (:wink::tongue:) with false hope. Seriously though, one not played card reprinted as a foil (presumably) in a special deck does not make this a trend for printing Legacy staples.
Who said Negator was powerful? My reasoning is a good bit deeper than looking at a spoiled card and pointing to a trend. Are you so certain that this is not a policy shift? I would love to see the reasoning behind that belief.

[MMogg]

Who said Negator was powerful? My reasoning is a good bit deeper than looking at a spoiled card and pointing to a trend. Are you so certain that this is not a policy shift? I would love to see the reasoning behind that belief.

You intimated by saying that "Wizards has been working towards this for a long time?" You then proceed to say, "If you believe my article last month it seems perfectly reasonable to reprint even powerful cards from past sets." All this stems from the news that they are reprinting Phyrexian Negator in a specially released dual deck. To say they have been "working towards this" implies that "this" is somewhat special, and deviates from their current policy. Yet, as many others have shown in this thread, this is not a deviation from their policy and completely in line with their policy of only reprinting reserve list cards in premium products. So, why do I need reasoning to prove there is not a shift in policy when there is nothing to show that there has been a shift in policy? :confused:

[troopatroop]

Because it's still a step in the other direction. It's on the Reserved list, and they're reprinting it anyways. So what if it's only been in Premium Products thus far, after the printing of ZEN and M10 you don't see a power creep? Baneslayer Angel, Enemy Fetchlands, and Pack Insert P9? Leadership has changed, It wouldn't be unreasonable to assume they'll do something crazy like print some more things on the Reserved List.

[Solaran_X]

Here's the quote from the article about the Slivers deck ( http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/64 ):

"Short answer: Sliver Overlord. Sliver Queen is on the Reserve List, and thusly can't be reprinted as long as it's on there. Sliver Legion is a glorified Coat of Arms and much less of a deckbuilding centerpiece. Incidentally, Sliver Overlord makes for the best EDH General for a Sliver deck, though Sliver Queen works better in a non-Sliver EDH deck built around her infinite combos."

The specific reason cited for not putting Sliver Queen into the PREMIUM Deck Series: Slivers is because she was on the Reserved List, and she cannot be reprinted as long as she's on there. So unless someone has some way to explain why a single foil Phyrexian Negator included in DD: Phyrexia v. The Coalition would be considered premium enough to use the so-called "foil loophole" and an entire foil deck sold as a special set with the word "Premium" as part of the title isn't premium enough and has to adhere to the Reserved List, it seems like Wizards did indeed violate their Reserved List.

[Otter]

we have to go with the wording given in the policy.

We don't have to go with anything at all, WotC isn't going to just sidestep the issue and the product releases in under a month (during which no other product is going to be released that the reserved list will even apply to). We'll find out soon enough regardless.

And for what it's worth, I'd bet that the design of the sliver deck involved at least a bit of discussion over the Queen. I don't think it's fair to discount what Nagle said because he's newer, when if there were any discussions about Queen in the set, it's likely that he was involved in them (from the way he writes the article, it sounds like he had a heavy hand in the deck). That doesn't seem to be any worse of a source on WotC's current views of the list than the OLS-era wording on the policy itself.

[MMogg]

I guess, and it's just a guess, the reserve list was more of an impact on the Sliver deck card choice than in this case because (according to current MOTL prices) Sliver Queen is worth $24 and Negator is worth $5. No one is getting burned by putting a $5 junk rare in a deck (sorry Negator, I <3 you, but it's true, you're a junk rare). For some people perhaps this is an issue of all or nothing and the decisions come down to on the list or off the list, but I think card values mean a lot, especially in the case of the Sliver Queen when there are two other options available that would not cause any amount of controversy if used.

I still don't get all this talk of the reserve list being there or gone. Force of Will, Wasteland, Sinkhole, etc. are not on the list, nor would anyone expect them to reprint them. Hell, I'm not even sure if they would reprint some of the $5-10 UCs we've seen in recent years like Counterbalance, Sensei's Divining Top, Aether Vial, or Path to Exile. This doesn't even mention the Tarmogoyf problem. None of the cards in this paragraph are on the reserve list and most likely will not see reprints soon. Even if the list were to go up in flames tomorrow, do you really think they'd start printing Mox Diamonds and LEDs? I'm not so sure. I think they are aware of secondary market values when deciding what to print in extra "premium" products (as in not a main set, not premium as in foil).

[Sims]

We don't NEED anything reprinted. Stop being cheap and spend some cash for some cards. If you can't, don't play, the end. Legacy isn't meant for cheap 10 year old whiners.

Tell you what. You pay my rent, car insurance, gas, cable bill, and cell phone bill for me and I'll go drop the change to finish my set of duals, onslaught fetches, and other Legacy staples that i don't already have.

People are not going to want to get into a format with such a high cost barrier to entry. Standard may cost them more in the long run, but they aren't shelling out top dollar for 1 deck up front, when the could build a new computer and build a standard deck for the same cost as 1 top tier legacy deck.

I'd go so far as to say that a good chunk of the people that have the disposable income to drop 75/ea for seas, 60/ea for goyfs, and according to some finished ebay listings nearly 300 for english tabbys either are coming at this from a collector standpoint and not a player point of view... or are still in high school/college riding off their parents coin and student loans.

From a legacy player's standpoint, the price of the staples required and scarcity of them by comparison to standard staples will forever be a barrier that will keep the format from being a fully recognized competitive format until they can reprint the staples and make it so that I can pay 300 for a set of old Seas, or pick up a set of reprinted seas with the ugly new frame and probably shitty artwork for cheaper. Collectors and Pimp enthusiasts will always want the old, where the players don't give a shit, they wanna play the game. I wanna play the game and not sacrifice my heating bill to be able to do it.

[MMogg]

So, I suddenly had what I believe to be a good solution to the Reserve List policy and that is a slow repeal. Especially since – if we accept that this Negator printing is, in fact, a breach of that policy – Negator is from Urza's Destiny, the final set in the Reserve. What if they were to repeal one set per year? 2010 --> Destiny, 2011 --> Legacy, 2012-->Saga, etc. That would give the market plenty of time to adjust and we would know ahead of time what is coming off, similar to how we know what is rotating out of Extended and when. Perfect solution? Probably not, but at least it's doable, particularly since the only really expensive card from The Dark to Destiny is Mox Diamond. They could always stop at a certain point, such as The Dark.

Thoughts?

[DownSyndromeKarl]

Tell you what. You pay my rent, car insurance, gas, cable bill, and cell phone bill for me and I'll go drop the change to finish my set of duals, onslaught fetches, and other Legacy staples that i don't already have.

get a real job and pay your own bills.


Is this conversation still going on? I thought it was resolved on page one?

Hell, even if this does violate Wizards' policy(which it doesn't), fuck it, what are you gonna do? call the police? "Waaah, Wizards is reprinting cards that they said they wouldn't, waaah." Wizards can do whatever the fuck they want, just look at Quest for Ula's Temple, who the fuck runs Kraken.dec?

[MurA33]

Probably not, but at least it's doable, particularly since the only really expensive card from The Dark to Destiny is Mox Diamond. They could always stop at a certain point, such as The Dark.?

Are you joking?!?! Mox Diamond is the only expensive card from Dark to Destiny?!?! I can list a few between those sets that are over $10...

Wasteland
Force of Will
Lion's Eye Diamond
Phyrexian Dreadnought
Survival of the Fittest
City of Traitors

I'm going to stop there because that statement is a bit off base.

...back to the thread. To put it simply, WOTC can print whatever they want. They are in business to make profits and if they deem it necessary to reprint certain cards to make profits, they will.

[MattH]

Here's the quote from the article about the Slivers deck ( http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/64 ):

"Short answer: Sliver Overlord. Sliver Queen is on the Reserve List, and thusly can't be reprinted as long as it's on there. Sliver Legion is a glorified Coat of Arms and much less of a deckbuilding centerpiece. Incidentally, Sliver Overlord makes for the best EDH General for a Sliver deck, though Sliver Queen works better in a non-Sliver EDH deck built around her infinite combos."

The specific reason cited for not putting Sliver Queen into the PREMIUM Deck Series: Slivers is because she was on the Reserved List, and she cannot be reprinted as long as she's on there. So unless someone has some way to explain why a single foil Phyrexian Negator included in DD: Phyrexia v. The Coalition would be considered premium enough to use the so-called "foil loophole" and an entire foil deck sold as a special set with the word "Premium" as part of the title isn't premium enough and has to adhere to the Reserved List, it seems like Wizards did indeed violate their Reserved List.

That does indeed say that Wizards considers themselves unable to reprint reserved list cards, even in foil (or felt this way at the time of writing). That still doesn't magically change the meaning of the English sentences in the official reprint policy, which still explicitly allows premium versions of cards, as it has every day since 2002. It just means that Wizards internally considered themselves as having to abide by some other extra requirement that isn't public knowledge, and the inclusion of Negator indicates the abandonment of that second policy.

Wizards still has not violated their reprint policy. They do seem to have violated some other unspoken rule about not printing cards from the reserved list in sale-able products, and the quote you supply hints at such a rule, but that rule is not now and never was part of the official reprint policy by which they have publicly promised to abide.

[MMogg]

Are you joking?!?! Mox Diamond is the only expensive card from Dark to Destiny?!?! I can list a few between those sets that are over $10...

Wasteland
Force of Will
Lion's Eye Diamond
Phyrexian Dreadnought
Survival of the Fittest
City of Traitors

I'm going to stop there because that statement is a bit off base.

...back to the thread. To put it simply, WOTC can print whatever they want. They are in business to make profits and if they deem it necessary to reprint certain cards to make profits, they will.

Sorry, I really don't considered those to be so expensive. Not compared to Tabernacle, Library of Alexandria, etc. Those cards are less than SCG's Jace, MS price and less than the cost of a Baneslayer Angel. I guess we have different perceptions of "expensive". To me, expensive is $50+, not $10-20. If it's $100/play set, it seems on the high end, but not so high you can't reprint the card. Like I said, cards that are in print are worth more than the cards you listed, so you needn't fear reprinting them and people losing money on them since printing doesn't necessarily reflect potential value.

[Sims]

get a real job and pay your own bills.

I have a job, thank you. Hell I'm posting from work half the time now. Doesn't make it so that any of these cards are any less expensive. I've got a lot of other things to spend money on than outrageous prices for some of these cards. I don't mind paying $100 bucks for a playset of something, maybe a little more depending on what it is. But when a card hits 200 to 300 for a playset, that's fucking ridiculous.

Good for you if you've got the disposable income to go out and drop the cash. That's great for you, you've got a better job than me or you just don't do much in the way of life outside of magic. But I cannot justify spending that much on some of these cards. I got my English Tabby for basically 100 bucks, I got my goyfs for pretty dirt cheap too, and I'm glad for that... because there's no way in hell I'd pay their current going rate for them. It's downright stupid, and I think will hurt the format in the long run if something isn't done about it. So call me cheap or tell me i have a shitty job, whatever, my point remains: the format is getting too expensive for new players to just pick up a legacy deck and get into the format, and to help alleviate the problem I think that the Reserve list should bite the dust. They'd be able to reprint cards in sets where they'd fit, they'd drive revenue, and get more people playing eternal formats.

That's the goal I'd rather see. I'd rather see, say, tabernacle get reprinted and watch my own card drop back to 100 for a nm english, if it allows more people to play Legacy. Otherwise I really do believe we're going to reach a point that we're going to be like Vintage with 200+ dollar cards, and people either demanding proxy events or the events won't exist, and people will spend a whole lot of time playing Extended and Standard.

[Mr.C]

So, to put this into an extremely extreme case, you're saying Wizards of the Coast could choose to print the Power 9, all 40 Duals, Balance, Demonic Tutor, Wheel of Fortune, Illusionary Mask, Mana Vault, Library of Alexandira, Bazaar of Baghdad, Mishra's Workshop, Mishra's Factory, Mana Drain, The Abyss, Maze of Ith, Oath of Druids, Tolarian Academy, Memory Jar, Grim Monolith, Mind Over Matter, Powder Keg, and anything else as foils, package them, and ship them to vendors to sell as 15 card packs at MSRP and not violate the Reserved List simply because the reprints are foil?

That's be pretty cool.

I would still want, and be willing to pay, for original set versions of those cards.

Edit: And, guess what, let's say Grim Tutor gets reprinted with shitty art and new border in M11. I have 4. I won't whine. Why should anyone?

[Exospaciac]

get a real job and pay your own bills.

How can you say something like that? You act as if MTG is the only thing people should be spending money on besides their bills.

For someone like me who hasn't had a great high paying job, I can't really afford to play anything but affinity. It's bad enough that just the manabases of most decks are around $400, if not more. Now, most of the other cards are skyrocketing past a reasonable value. $100 Tarmogoyfs is nuts. There's NO reason it should be that high. It's been out of print for less than 3 years.

The only thing WotC has done to help new players get into Legacy is print enemy fetches. And even then, the fetches are the less expensive half of the manabase.

I agree with Sims that if things keep going the way they do with Legacy pricing, it's going to suffer the same fate as Vintage.
I'm pretty sure Wizards knows the absurd prices of some of these cards. What I don't understand is why can't they reprint some of them? Reprinting Goyf, FoW, LED, or just about any Legacy staple will drive the sales of packs up more than anything else they could do within reason.

A little OT, but wouldn't either Ancient Tomb or City of Traitors (yes I know it's on the list) fit well in the next set? They have the whole colorless thing going on and it's the land block...

[Octopusman]

<--- Another thrilled player that has been involved since Arabian Nights was in print.

I've been waiting so long for this!

I'm really hoping they reprint all of the expensive staples.
IMO - T2 is garbage. More people playing Legacy/Vintage is what Magic should have been from the start.
i.e. Vintage is T2 and new sets provide cards for draft/sealed but also chase cards to impact the current T2(Vintage) meta.

[edit] My pick for next to be reprinted?
Either workshop or bazaar :)

My loyalties towards Legacy seem to be waning some with the thought that Vintage staples could be on the horizon (if I got my way).
However, Vintage is pretty degenerate - so Legacy would probably be the healthiest format.

[Finn]

You intimated by saying that "Wizards has been working towards this for a long time?" You then proceed to say, "If you believe my article last month it seems perfectly reasonable to reprint even powerful cards from past sets." All this stems from the news that they are reprinting Phyrexian Negator in a specially released dual deck. To say they have been "working towards this" implies that "this" is somewhat special, and deviates from their current policy. Yet, as many others have shown in this thread, this is not a deviation from their policy and completely in line with their policy of only reprinting reserve list cards in premium products. So, why do I need reasoning to prove there is not a shift in policy when there is nothing to show that there has been a shift in policy? :confused:

Mister...
Wizards has changed this policy as they desire on several occasions to suit their needs. They will not reprint them...except in premium...or online (and charge a shitload for the packs)...or whatever exception they can dream up. The reserved list has never done what it was intended to do and has been a general pain in their side for a very long time. It is only a matter of time before it is completely meaningless. The only question is whether they continue to degrade it until this happens or if they simply abolish it at some point. I just don't give a crap about any of that. I have my cards.

I am not referencing any of that anyway. I have to presume that you have no idea what I am talking about because you did not read the article. No matter. I was making reference to my argument that they have been carefully laying the groundwork for a return of any card they wish to reprint with power creep as the tool. You misunderstood my meaning. I just don't want your sarcasm directed at me when I have done nothing to draw any. I never made any claim that Phyrexian Negator was somehow an important or powerful card. It is a warm loaf of turd in Legacy.

[MMogg]

I just don't want your sarcasm directed at me when I have done nothing to draw any.


Yeah, because Negator based decks are T8ing everywhere. Sorry, I hate sarcasm but you've driven me to it (:wink::tongue:) with false hope. Seriously though, one not played card reprinted as a foil (presumably) in a special deck does not make this a trend for printing Legacy staples.

Yeah, I had added the :wink: and the :tongue: in my original statement in order to highlight that the sarcasm was tongue-in-cheek and not to be taken seriously. I guess you decided to take it seriously anyway.

As for Wizards changing their policy as they desire, I think Matt said it best a few posts up:


Wizards still has not violated their reprint policy. They do seem to have violated some other unspoken rule about not printing cards from the reserved list in sale-able products, and the quote you supply hints at such a rule, but that rule is not now and never was part of the official reprint policy by which they have publicly promised to abide.

I do care, even though I have the cards already as well. I care because I'd rather see the format expand than contract and I'd also like to see a proactive policy rather than waiting until the problem becomes more serious.

Bottom line though, I trust Wizards a hell of a lot more than myself.

[DownSyndromeKarl]

I'm not the one who sat here and said "pay my bills for me so i can play magic."
I do have an awesome paying job, and the mortgage, new car, wife and two kids to pay for. Can I shell out hundreds of dollars on magic cards at the drop of a hat? No. I bide my time and buy things gradually. No one should discover Magic and say "wow, this game sounds cool, I think I'll start with Legacy"

Basically, don't bitch about the price of cards. If this game is too expensive, find a different hobby. Do I wish cards were cheaper? Absolutely, but if I can't afford something, I guess I don't need it that badly. If you're a good enough player, you win occasionally and you should use those winnings to get what you want to play. Like five years ago(Rav Block was T2) I spent about $800 on Magic in one sitting, since then I've traded for things I need or used winnings to get more packs/singles that I could use to get more packs/singles. I didn't have to take cash out of pocket until a few months ago. My hobby paid for itself for a couple years. Now I get sponsored to play Legacy. Someone else owns my deck and pays for my entrance fees, but I have to give him 40% of whatever I win.

I'm kind of on the fence about Legacy being Elitist Vs super-accessible. I think the reserved list is retarded and "staples" should be reprinted so more people can play, but like I said, leave Legacy and Vintage to players who know what they're doing. Winning isn't everything, but to earn a win feels better for me than just crushing some kid who doesn't know what FoW means or who Bob is.

What's that saying; "It's not the destination, but the journey?" I like to play Magic, not put cards on a table without a thought and end saying "Me, 2-0" to a judge.

[Bardo]

I have a job, thank you. Hell I'm posting from work half the time now. Doesn't make it so that any of these cards are any less expensive. I've got a lot of other things to spend money on than outrageous prices for some of these cards. I don't mind paying $100 bucks for a playset of something, maybe a little more depending on what it is. But when a card hits 200 to 300 for a playset, that's fucking ridiculous.

Good for you if you've got the disposable income to go out and drop the cash. That's great for you, you've got a better job than me or you just don't do much in the way of life outside of magic. But I cannot justify spending that much on some of these cards. I got my English Tabby for basically 100 bucks, I got my goyfs for pretty dirt cheap too, and I'm glad for that... because there's no way in hell I'd pay their current going rate for them. It's downright stupid, and I think will hurt the format in the long run if something isn't done about it. So call me cheap or tell me i have a shitty job, whatever, my point remains: the format is getting too expensive for new players to just pick up a legacy deck and get into the format, and to help alleviate the problem I think that the Reserve list should bite the dust. They'd be able to reprint cards in sets where they'd fit, they'd drive revenue, and get more people playing eternal formats.

That's the goal I'd rather see. I'd rather see, say, tabernacle get reprinted and watch my own card drop back to 100 for a nm english, if it allows more people to play Legacy. Otherwise I really do believe we're going to reach a point that we're going to be like Vintage with 200+ dollar cards, and people either demanding proxy events or the events won't exist, and people will spend a whole lot of time playing Extended and Standard.
I don't do this often, but: QFFT.

I have a shit-ton invested in my collection and would be perfectly happy to see it tank if it meant that [some statistically relevant]% could get into the format and not get completely squeezed out by $$. Ultimately, I think Ben is right above: it's a boom time right now and it won't last forever. When the spotlight is off the format, prices will be more reasonable (maybe not back to 2007-08 prices), but you know, it's 2010.

[pi4meterftw]

Yeah, I had added the :wink: and the :tongue: in my original statement in order to highlight that the sarcasm was tongue-in-cheek and not to be taken seriously. I guess you decided to take it seriously anyway.

As for Wizards changing their policy as they desire, I think Matt said it best a few posts up:



I do care, even though I have the cards already as well. I care because I'd rather see the format expand than contract and I'd also like to see a proactive policy rather than waiting until the problem becomes more serious.

Bottom line though, I trust Wizards a hell of a lot more than myself.

Don't worry about it, it's totally in character for Finn to be offended by nothing.

[Mr.C]

I'm not the one who sat here and said "pay my bills for me so i can play magic."
I do have an awesome paying job, and the mortgage, new car, wife and two kids to pay for. Can I shell out hundreds of dollars on magic cards at the drop of a hat? No. I bide my time and buy things gradually. No one should discover Magic and say "wow, this game sounds cool, I think I'll start with Legacy"

Basically, don't bitch about the price of cards. If this game is too expensive, find a different hobby. Do I wish cards were cheaper? Absolutely, but if I can't afford something, I guess I don't need it that badly. If you're a good enough player, you win occasionally and you should use those winnings to get what you want to play. Like five years ago(Rav Block was T2) I spent about $800 on Magic in one sitting, since then I've traded for things I need or used winnings to get more packs/singles that I could use to get more packs/singles. I didn't have to take cash out of pocket until a few months ago. My hobby paid for itself for a couple years. Now I get sponsored to play Legacy. Someone else owns my deck and pays for my entrance fees, but I have to give him 40% of whatever I win.

I'm kind of on the fence about Legacy being Elitist Vs super-accessible. I think the reserved list is retarded and "staples" should be reprinted so more people can play, but like I said, leave Legacy and Vintage to players who know what they're doing. Winning isn't everything, but to earn a win feels better for me than just crushing some kid who doesn't know what FoW means or who Bob is.

What's that saying; "It's not the destination, but the journey?" I like to play Magic, not put cards on a table without a thought and end saying "Me, 2-0" to a judge.

Can't believe I'm reading the same argument in a Legacy forum. This is what people say to bitch that proxies are killing vintage or whatever.

See, I have a wife, an average paying job, 4 recruiters, 4 loyal retainers, 4 grim tutor (all cards not on the reserved list, by the way...). What's the problem in taking it away? Do you think prices would drop through the floor if they announced Monday that the reserved list is no more? Really? Seriously?

Also, cost should NOT be a barrier to playing Legacy. I do not feel happy when I crush someone who doesn't have the money for the cards.

I have said this over the years, reprint them all, I don't give a shit, and I wont feel like my 'investment' is devalued. Especially because if you think magic is an investment, seriously, you need to set your priorities straight.

And one last thing. Someone else pays for your cards. So obviously you don't care. Most people do not get sponsored or whatever. You are an exception.

[MMogg]

Don't worry about it, it's totally in character for Finn to be offended by nothing.

haha, thanks. :smile:


I don't do this often, but: QFFT.

I have a shit-ton invested in my collection and would be perfectly happy to see it tank if it meant that [some statistically relevant]% could get into the format and not get completely squeezed out by $$. Ultimately, I think Ben is right above: it's a boom time right now and it won't last forever. When the spotlight is off the format, prices will be more reasonable (maybe not back to 2007-08 prices), but you know, it's 2010.

This implies that the spotlight will leave Legacy, but is that a certainty? SCG can answer this better than I could (duh), but it seems to me that if the 2010 SCG $5k series is successful, it will carry on into 2011. Likewise, if the two Legacy GPs see unprecedented turnout, it's more than likely Wizards/DCI will either maintain that number in 2011 or perhaps even test the waters by adding an additional date, perhaps somewhere in America, Europe and Asia. What the SCG series has done is made traditional "seasons" almost disappear. This is not a rhetorical question: do you really think this is a spotlight situation, or is Legacy really just becoming an accepted and widely played/supported format.

I doubt people who are coming into the format now are going to get out of it. Prices are perhaps increasing exponentially now because of the massive influx of players (especially as Standard and Legacy are back to back at SCG $5ks.), and if those people remain in the format, prices should continue to slowly creep up or plateau. I can't see any sign or argument that shows they would dip or that focus is somehow going to shift away from the format.

To me, that's all good. More players = more fun.

[Adan]

I can agree with Sims statement. I've bought my Goyf for 12 $/Playset, the relation is just ridiculous.

And yes, the format is expansive for newcomers, especially because the duals are also rising constantly in their price for some reason. BUT zthere are still a few competitive budget decks that can be played (noLED Ichorid for example, that one has just got a ridiculous price-performance ratio).

[CallMeLiam]

I could pay £40 for an original copy of Watchmen #1.
I could pay £10 for a book containing Watchmen #1 and eleven more of them.

Original duals will lose some value if\when they get reprinted, but they won't be worthless because there will always be collectors who would rather have the older version. The reserved list is bad for the game, and good for the collectors, but ultimately Magic is supposed to be a game. Like the graphic novel collections cited above, it's meant to be enjoyed by as many people as possible and the reserved list is damaging that. By all means slap them in a core set and watch the originals lose some value, but then watch as they regain it when people want to pimp their decks.

It's a game, let people play it. The collector's market can cope.

[Matt Blackburn]

That's the goal I'd rather see. I'd rather see, say, tabernacle get reprinted and watch my own card drop back to 100 for a nm english, if it allows more people to play Legacy. Otherwise I really do believe we're going to reach a point that we're going to be like Vintage with 200+ dollar cards, and people either demanding proxy events or the events won't exist, and people will spend a whole lot of time playing Extended and Standard.

and exactly what are all the $200 cards ? tabernacle and what else ? maybe moat way down the road ? and legacy will become vintage because everyone needs to only play 43.dec all of a sudden ?

[Doomsday]

and exactly what are all the $200 cards ? tabernacle and what else ? maybe moat way down the road ? and legacy will become vintage because everyone needs to only play 43.dec all of a sudden ?

Aside from Tabernacle, the only expensive cards that are used that I can think of are Grim Tutor (which almost no one uses), Moat and Imperial Recruiter. Big deal.

[Arsenal]

and exactly what are all the $200 cards ? tabernacle and what else ? maybe moat way down the road ? and legacy will become vintage because everyone needs to only play 43.dec all of a sudden ?

If you read Sims' post, the message he was trying to convey was that, assuming prices continue to rise on Legacy staples, Legacy will eventually reach the point where you have to shell out $200+ per card in order to be tier 1 competitive. Nowhere in his post did he claim that Legacy is currently at this stage.

[coraz86]

On the one hand, I agree that $90 Goyfs and thousand-dollar mana bases are dumb. Cost is a big deal, especially to someone like me who already has to lay the fuck out for gas, vittles, and other travel expenses to even get to a Legacy tournament. (Not to mention that I too have a crappy job, but that dead horse is sufficiently beaten, I think.) On that count I'm for a little loosening of the reprint policy.

On the other hand, one thing I love about Legacy is the atmosphere at the tournaments. You know how Prereleases, especially big ones, have that huge kind of party feeling to them as everyone feels out the new set, does some cool shit they never even conceived of doing, opened something retarded (or phenomenal), etc.? Legacy, for me, similarly has an inimitable feeling of being more about the game. A lot of the guys I play Magic with in Erie are guys I've been playing with for ten or eleven years. We love to play and we play to win, but the memories of the gaming are just as important as the prizes. A couple guys I recently played were telling me how they used to open packs of Unlimited, get pissed that their rare was a land, and toss them. Some of them were adding up how much all those Taigas and Trops and shit would be now and getting a little depressed.

Point being not that Legacy is indisputably the best format by any measure, but that I know a large portion of my binder is stuff I remember fondly from years of service and doing cool things with and meeting cool people through. For a variety of reasons, Legacy attracts more of the people who've been around the game longer and hence have a different attachment to it than, say, your average Standard player. I'm not crass enough to say that the Reserved List makes the game better, but I feel like the skew towards experienced/older players changes the dynamic in a way that I like.

[Cesarius]

So this means we'll have FTV: Duals and FTV: Legacy Staples soon?

Can't wait.

[Matt Blackburn]

If you read Sims' post, the message he was trying to convey was that, assuming prices continue to rise on Legacy staples, Legacy will eventually reach the point where you have to shell out $200+ per card in order to be tier 1 competitive. Nowhere in his post did he claim that Legacy is currently at this stage.

right. but if YOU read MY post, the message that I was trying to convey was that, there arent any other cards out there that could possibly get that high. those cards are old and rare, everything else except duals is from a set with a much larger print run. legends to what, alliances before legacy uses anything. FOW and ESG. then mirage LED, then visions Dreadnought. none of those cards will ever be $200ea cards. sorry, I just dont see it.

[Matt Blackburn]

On the one hand, I agree that $90 Goyfs and thousand-dollar mana bases are dumb. Cost is a big deal, especially to someone like me who already has to lay the fuck out for gas, vittles, and other travel expenses to even get to a Legacy tournament. (Not to mention that I too have a crappy job, but that dead horse is sufficiently beaten, I think.) On that count I'm for a little loosening of the reprint policy.

how much do you think it costs for say someone to play golf as a hobby ? you need the balls, tees, shoes, clubs, bag, membership at a range, etc. all of that adds up. I dont mind paying $1000 for a manabase, why ? cause unlike golf, if I got bored with this as a hobby, I could sell that manabase back off for $1000. who wants to buy used balls and shoes. also, if I didnt have $1000 to spend on land, I could always play stax, mono R goblins, merfolk, ANT/TES, enchantress or damned 43 land.

[Arsenal]

right. but if YOU read MY post, the message that I was trying to convey was that, there arent any other cards out there that could possibly get that high. those cards are old and rare, everything else except duals is from a set with a much larger print run. legends to what, alliances before legacy uses anything. FOW and ESG. then mirage LED, then visions Dreadnought. none of those cards will ever be $200ea cards. sorry, I just dont see it.

And I never saw $100 Goyfs, but that doesn't mean that it can't (did) happen. What's your point? Just because you can't foresee price increases, they absolutely cannot occur?

[Matt Blackburn]

more of that the print runs are so high that what you're saying is unlikely to occur. goyf is an exception, but even still, a couple months ago they were averaging $25 each all day.

[obituary 95]

i think they will not abolish the resverved list all together, but they will make a ressision so that wizards will be able to keep vintage in tack

[xTrainx]

People will continue to pay money for old cards, albeit less.

Look at how much a beta Dark Ritual goes for. It's been reprinted a huge number of times, but the beta Ritual is still worth more.

Reprints will slightly devalue old cards, but they will eventually start to go up again, as supply/demand decreases.

[Dan Turner]

Well it is confirmed the list is not "dead" but they are taking the premium loophole and are going to use it for boxed sets.

Click me (http://community.wizards.com/magicthegathering/blog/2010/02/15/pt_san_diego_and_spoilers!)

So pretty much it is dead in any way that means anything, they can print any card ever and as long as they put a foil layer on it it is not a violation of the reprint policy. So I say Game On...

[Solaran_X]

Masticore in FTV: Relics, huh?

This all seems odd though. The guy who intro'd Premium Deck Series: Slivers explicitly said Sliver Queen wasn't in there because of the Reserved List, and this guy now says "as long as it's foil, it's not a violation".

[xTrainx]

Evidently. I'm wondering what else is gonna be in there as well.

[Dan Turner]

Maybe LED and dreadnaught

[Solaran_X]

Could be. Zendikar's "Priceless Treasures" showed that the community is not adverse to a "fresh" availability of older cards and FTV: Exiled shows that Berserk's Alpha/Beta/Unlimited versions barely took a ding with an introduction of a foil version using the new frame and new art.

[Otter]

*sigh* I'm disappointed that they took the lame way out. It's better than nothing and I'll take it, but abusing a loophole in the policy admits that the policy is a joke (yeah, we already knew they thought it was a joke, but putting actions to those words is different). They might as well just put the stupid list out of its misery.

That 'core looks fucking wicked though, can't wait to grab one.

[MMogg]

Can we say, the Tard told you so:


why do we always have this conversation? Special Promotional Product. No Violation of Reserved List. These cards are not going to be anymore legal in any format now that they're being printed in a Special Promotional Product. Can this thing get locked before my brain esplodes.

All the way on the first page.

BTW: that is the ugliest ass Masticore pic. I'll stick with UD, thanks.

http://images.community.wizards.com/community.wizards.com/user/magicthegathering/e5ce0e2060f5065ea01a8a03f5c45f18.jpg?v=124533

[MattH]

It is true that while we’ve been able to make premium versions of cards on the reserved list, we’ve so far only used them for promotional purposes (Negator was a judge promo, for example).


The reprint policy specifically makes an exception for "premium cards" (which is Wotc's official term for foils). If the Negator is foil, they have not broken their policy. If it isn't, they have. That is the one and only hinge. The innovation here would be putting a foil version of a reserved list card in a product meant for individual purchase, but as long as the Negator is foil, they have NOT broken their reprint policy.

I will take this opportunity to refer you all to my signature.

I actually like the new Masticore picture a lot, that thing looks awesome. It makes up for the weak Negator (although to be fair it would be impossible to top the original) and the atrocious Urza's Rage, where it looks like somebody is casting Constipate on Urza's junk. Constipate would be a perfect name for a Mana Leak variant. ~NC

[sunshine]

BTW: that is the ugliest ass Masticore pic. I'll stick with UD, thanks.



I have to side with the Destiny art as well. Not to mention the whole mechanized look is a little out of place - I wonder if they initially intended to reprint Razormane Masticore.

[Solaran_X]

Doubt it. Razormane Masticore was just reprinted in 10th Edition. I doubt it would be in a FTV boxed set so soon.

[DownSyndromeKarl]

The tard likes the new masticore art.

[dahcmai]

I'm just glad that ancient argument is finally dead. Yes, they can print whatever they want now.



Dreads the foil duals prices. Glad I have alphas.

[qwertyuser]

I like the reserved list. Getting rid of the list does not mean the duals and other Legacy playables will be reprinted. If they want to reprint stuff thats on the list, they can with foil versions in limited product. I think it's great things like Juzam Djinn, Jihad and Didgeridoo:laugh: are on the list, it prevents them from being mass reprinted and losing their uniqueness. The reserved list is not the problem for Legacy. Stuff like Tarmogoyf/Grim Tutor/Imperial Recruiter are not on the list, i don't see those getting reprinted.

All of you should complain about wizards reprint policy of playables instead of the reserved list since a lot of expensive playables are not even on there (FoW, portal3 stuff and Tarmogoyf for example) .

[MattH]

I like the reserved list. Getting rid of the list does not mean the duals and other Legacy playables will be reprinted. If they want to reprint stuff thats on the list, they can with foil versions in limited product. I think it's great things like Juzam Djinn, Jihad and Didgeridoo:laugh: are on the list, it prevents them from being mass reprinted and losing their uniqueness. The reserved list is not the problem for Legacy. Stuff like Tarmogoyf/Grim Tutor/Imperial Recruiter are not on the list, i don't see those getting reprinted.

All of you should complain about wizards reprint policy of playables instead of the reserved list since a lot of expensive playables are not even on there (FoW, portal3 stuff and Tarmogoyf for example) .

Wizards has no policy on "playables," whatever THAT is.