[Deck] Hive Pact v.1.0.1

[Fatestitcher]

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[thorin_the_king]

just a little question, I'm seeing you play final fortune as a kill condition, but i don't know who will take the extra turn before, the opponent or you. the copy of final fortune resolve first but as the gathere on final fortune says:

Gatherer Card Rulings [Nov 2009]

* 10/4/2004: If you end up skipping the extra turn that is gained, you do not lose the game.
* 10/4/2004: If multiple "extra turn" effects resolve in the same turn, take them in the reverse of the order that the effects resolved.



Now I'm confused.

[thorin_the_king]

understood.

maybe it's a silly advice but why not include some angel's grace? we'd have to modify the manabase a little bit, but it can be useful.

pact of the titan x2 + angel's grace next turn = good times.

then we can use pact of negation as a hard counter when needed and no paying the upkeep, and final fortune could be used as a time walk sometimes.

i don't know, tell me what you think

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[sunshine]

just a little question, I'm seeing you play final fortune as a kill condition, but i don't know who will take the extra turn before, the opponent or you. the copy of final fortune resolve first but as the gathere on final fortune says:

Gatherer Card Rulings [Nov 2009]

* 10/4/2004: If you end up skipping the extra turn that is gained, you do not lose the game.
* 10/4/2004: If multiple "extra turn" effects resolve in the same turn, take them in the reverse of the order that the effects resolved.



Now I'm confused.

The ruling here I think was refering to multiple "extra turn" effects granted to a single player - i.e. you play Time Walk then Final Fortune - you get to take the Final Fortune extra turn first.

However, I believe the same ordering applies to extra turns granted to different players, so it also happens that if you cast Final Fortune with Hive mind in play you're opponents copy of FF resolves before your original does, meaning you get to take your FF extra turn first - sad times.

[Forbiddian]

Yeah, think about the turn order:

B*, A, B...
*On this turn, final fortune is cast by A and copied by B.

* just labels the current turn.
** labels Final Fortune turns.

B's copy resolves first, making the turn order:
B*, B**, A, B...

Then A's copy resolves, getting the next turn:
B*, A**, B**, A, B...


The deck is fairly interesting. Instead of Conflux + Another spell, you just need a PoT. Also, it's almost insignificant because the Show and Tell is usually countered, but the pact is extremely hard to counter (you would have to be tapped out and then Daze). You don't have to worry about an opponent lacking Force of Wills but tapped out being able to Spell Pierce or Daze your goodies.

Hardcasting the Dream Halls is very important to DHs, but with the extra free card, it might be about as easy to scrape together 5U as 3UU + an extra card. Probably this deck needs more fast mana like Ancient Tomb, City of Traitors, etc. Really take advantage of the fact that you Show and Tell and Hive Mind only cost XU.

Dream Halls can also be used to trick out Progenitus, but other than that it's basically similar in terms of kill requirements. One costs 1 more and one costs an extra card. If you can make the extra card more valuable than the extra mana (e.g. with Ancient Tomb), then this deck might even be better than DH.


I don't think red really adds anything to the deck, especially after it's clear that FF is only useful with Progenitus and even then only in a minor aspect, so it should probably be cut.

It's harder to pay 4R than 2GG, so PoT is better than SP, but I'd recommend one copy of Summoner's Pact so that you can still tutor up a kill against a red deck. On the critical turn, Summoner's Pact can also pitch to Force of Will on the critical turn.

[rufus]

It's obviously non-competitive, but playing an epic spell while hive mind is out would be hillarious.
Seems like playing Vendetta with Hive Mind out could be funny.
Doomsday/Diminishing Returns could be interesting with Hive mind out.
Breakthrough
Chain of Smog?
Smallpox...

[AlterEgo]

Whose turn it is doesn't matter:

Suppose I have priority and cast FF. I put it onto the stack and pay its cost. During that, Hive Mind triggers, but does nothing, yet.
Once I'm done casting FF, Hive Mind makes my opponent(s) put copies of FF on top of my original spell - in turn order starting with the active player.
Those copies obviously must resolve before mine and each one creates an additional turn right after the current one - pushing aside all previously created extra turns in the process.
So after resolving all spells on the stack, the next turn will be mine, no matter who's the active player, because the original spell (which I cast) will always resolve last .

[Kangaxx]

Like I said, a skilled pilot waits until he has both the enchantment and Pact. The moment Hive Mind enters the play and it resolves, the pilot plays Pact without passing priority. Once Pact is on the stack, his opponent must find a way to pay 4:r: or else that player loses during his upkeep. For me, that is the hilarious part and that's the exclusive role of Hive Mind on this deck. Whatever fancy spell resolves after Pact of the Titan is obviously irrelevant.

When a deck top 8s in tourneys with 100+ in attendance, how can it be obviously non-competitive? Although it's true that those victories are from Extended, i believe it's too early to label it that way.

Going back, the oracle on Final fortune says "Take an extra turn after this one." With Hive in play and I cast FF during my opponents turn and his copy resolves so does mine, because he is the active player and the turn is his, it seems to me that he must be the first to go an extra turn. Because it will look kinda absurd if he passes the turn to me, I go two turns before he does.

Show and Tell is nuts. I've been testing it in a deck that puts into play a Mind Over Matter, for over a year with the misfortune of never picking up a playset before the Dream Hall shenanigans began.

So, you win with giving your opponent the option of paying 4R. What happens when he can? Does Dragon Stompy worry you at all?

[AlterEgo]

So, you win with giving your opponent the option of paying 4R. What happens when he can? Does Dragon Stompy worry you at all?

I guess no. you just wait for them to cast a spell and Pact-of-Negation it.
Or you proceed to G2, boarding in Slaughter/Intervention/Summon Pact.

[Phoenix Ignition]

Take red out for black. Seething Song is awful compared to Dark Ritual, and FF doesn't work well enough. Either take those out for more Dark rits or use some Lim-Dul's Vaults with that.

Also combining two words from 2 cards in a deck is a bad way to name a deck unless it is especially clever. They don't call it Dream Ultimatum or Cruel Halls or Druel Ultihalltum.

[sunshine]

Extra turns are still extra turns even if they happen to fall in regular turn order - which is what I think you're getting caught up with.

We agree that if you play FF, regardless of whose turn it is, you're opponents copy of the spell resolves before your original. The copy resolves - granting your opponent an extra turn after the current one (his turn), then the original resolves granting you an extra turn after the current one (still his turn) - in effect squeezing an extra turn for you in between the two your opponent was scheduled to take in a row. The net result is that turns are going to proceed in their regular order, it just so happens the that next two are "extras".

I have to echo the posts above that black seems like a strong option for you anyway. Dark Rit is an improvement over Seething Song, Lim-Dul's Vault is amazing, and you could support main deck Slaughter Pacts that double as win cons.

[AlterEgo]

Both players getting an extra turn after the current turn now awaits for trigger..

This is exactly where your mistake comes from.
Those extra turns won't "wait to trigger", they are created DURING resolution of the spell, not immediatly before they would start.
Think of the game as a preconstructed chain of turns, that you and your opponent are supposed to take. Final Fortune, Time Walk, et al. squeeze one additional turn between two of those, they insert it after the current one pushing all following turns aside.

Of course this is covered by a game rule:

Comp.Rules 500.7.: Some effects can give a player extra turns. They do this by adding the turns directly after the current turn. If a player gets multiple extra turns or if multiple players get extra turns during a single turn, the extra turns are added one at a time. The most recently created turn will be taken first.

[rufus]

I have to echo the posts above that black seems like a strong option for you anyway. Dark Rit is an improvement over Seething Song, Lim-Dul's Vault is amazing, and you could support main deck Slaughter Pacts that double as win cons.

I think black is a better color here too. Of course, paying the piper for Slaughter Pact is much easier, and it's targeted so you need a body for it to hit.



maybe it's a silly advice but why not include some angel's grace? we'd have to modify the manabase a little bit, but it can be useful.

There's also Platinum Angel, which isn't completely terribe with Show and Tell.

[Phoenix Ignition]

I think black is a better color here too. Of course, paying the piper for Slaughter Pact is much easier, and it's targeted so you need a body for it to hit.

I think that was the point. Slaughter Pact can kill some creatures to buy you time (which you can pay for even). It's easier for the opponent too, but right now only about 2/9 of the decks to beat could do that.