[Deck] Aggro Loam

[iamajellydonut]

U faced dead guy round 2? I think I was your opponent. I faced an aggro loam deck early. Pretty sure it was round 2. 15 rounds can become a huge blur.

Considering the scarcity of both Deadguy Ale and Loam, it was assuredly me. Although I did make one gamble that cost me a fair bit (decaying something else other than the sword), our games were probably the best ones that I played. They just happened to come on a bad day.

Also, judging by your commend of "15 rounds", grats on day 2!

[Wilkin]

Considering the scarcity of both Deadguy Ale and Loam, it was assuredly me. Although I did make one gamble that cost me a fair bit (decaying something else other than the sword), our games were probably the best ones that I played. They just happened to come on a bad day.

Also, judging by your commend of "15 rounds", grats on day 2!

Lol, that is true. Deadguy Ale isn't exactly a popular deck. According to my notes it was round 2 and I won in 3. Still have your name as well. Hmm....did you die to a Hero of Bladehold and/or face a Dark Confidant turn 1? If so, than it's me. While Deadguy isn't a popular deck, Hero of Bladehold is even less prevalent in legacy decks.

[apocolyps6]

Small tournament report

Sideboard changes for the event:
-1 Armageddon : My local meta has no Omni so my chances of getting good testing with this might be pretty low
+1 Darkblast : An attempt to do something about the D&T matchup.
-1 Grafdigger’s cage : This was sort-of a mistake but I also didn’t see any decks in the room where this would be relevant.
+1 Containment priest : Slightly better general grave hate I guess. Again, a mistake.
Older changes I did not mention:
-1 Council’s Judgement : Hitting hexproof guys is not that big of a deal, my deluges help.
+1 Maelstrom pulse : Similar in function to Judgement, but it also hits Angel tokens out of miracles, which is one of their more legit ways of beating me
+1 Reclamation Sage : naturalize is good. D&T is the biggest reason this is here.
In the main:
-1 Scrubland : I’ve felt like there was 1 too many duals in the deck and this is the clear cut.
+1 Deathrite Shaman : I played with stuff like Port but eventually settled on this “mana source"

Round 1 against GBr midrange
Game 1: I keep a loose hand with Secluded Steppe, 2xWaste as my manabase and 2 chalices. he plays DRS, Wasteland + bob, sylvan library, Liliana and i scoop to the +1 with just a wasteland on the board.
Game 2: I find myself with a fast knight but something like Mox Mox Grove as my manabase and for the first time in like half a year Knight beats are plan A and eventually get there.
Game 3: I trade removal for his snooze but he eventually gets DRS + scooze against my 2 knights and a chalice. He taps down wasteland and I mainphase a marit lage.
1-0 (2-1)

Round 2 agains UR delver
Game 1: I keep another bad hand with uncastable Pfire and Decay. (Yeah I know :/) In my defence, my opponent seemed to have kept a loose hand based on how long he thought about it. I gambled T1 by wasting his volc with delver on the board. His hand turned out to be mana-heavy rather than mana-light and I lose this one.
Game 2: I play a turn 2 chalice and natural a marit lage on him turn 3/4.
Game 3: T1 chalice on 1 gets dazed. t2 pyroclasm on delver gets forced. T3 Decay on delver resolves. then so does T4 knight and The opponent scoops when I cast a batterskull with daze backup.
2-0 (4-2)

Round 3 against D&T
Game 1: The nightmare matchup :(. My turn 2 pridemage blows up his t1 vial the subsequent SFM allows for a sworded-up Thalia to get pro-green from mom and get in there. Killing my DRS. I see a Pfire in my top 3 from library and proceed to slowly and carefully mow down his board with punishing fire and scavenging ooze. At the time the Thalia attacked, I was super behind and killing DRS+getting me to 6+drawing a card are all good things. That just happened to provide the opening I needed to turn he tide.
Game 2: I think I am doing relevant things. I darkblast Thalia. I clasm away SFM + other. Then the opponent lands a crusader with SofI and I lose with green dudes on board and decay in hand.
Game 3: I have 2 accelerants, opponent is on a mull to 6 and has a slow hand. I land a turn 2 Knight. He plays a revoker on my DRS. I Rec Sage the Revoker and Get in for 4. He plays a SFM. I decay it and get in for 6. He plays a white chick of some kind. I decay her and get in for 6. He plays a batterskull. I Pulse it and he offers the hand.
3-0 (6-3) yay

Round 4 against BUG control/landstill
Game 1: Pridemage gets Innocent Blooded. I land a scooze and a chalice. He lands a Tasigur. I get a loam going and use it to feed scooze. He doesn’t use any removal or countermagic so we just race. When I am at 8 and he is at 6 my scooze is bounced with Jace. I Pfire the Jace at end step. I get a SFM forced. I replay scooze, zenith up a dryad arbor and waste his tarpit. Next turn I chump with arbor, eat my scooze up to a 5/5 and finish the job with Pfire.
Game 2: I pulse his scooze. He plays another. I play a scooze and then a Teeg. I get my knight killed and upgrade my scooze to match his. I get in for damage while he can’t. Oh and 3 wasteland activations cut him off of black. He plays two factories. I play a knight and a choke. He activates one, I use knight to waste it, putting him to 2 mana sources And eventually four life. I swing out and there is no way he stays at above 1 life. He asks to see my punishing fires. I show them and he scoops.
4-0 (8-3)

[Seraphix]

Played a local today with a few changes. Replaced the 3rd Loam with a 2nd Library, the 3rd Liliana with a 4th Decay, and Treetop Village with Maze. In the board I played Thoughtseize instead of Thrun.

I was 1-2, beating MUD but losing to two heinous matchups in Burn and Nic-Fit.

I know its a very fringe deck so I'm not going to lose sleep over it, but how does one approach the Nic-Fit matchup? The few matches I've played against it have been horribly lopsided. Deed is just so good against us and we have little interaction with their big stuff. Is boarding out some number of Chalice and Moxes correct?

[apocolyps6]

I've been boarding out 2ish Chalices in matchups where the opponent has decay and a diverse curve. I'd probably also cut 1 mox so the deed for 0 is less of a thing. I think Last time I played nic fit I just raced it; Stoping the explorer is kind of a losing battle and wasteland is not a gameplan here. Stuff like this is why I like generic/broad answers like pulse and revoker in my SB. Beyond that it probably depends on the kind of nic fit, some play Jace some play Pod, some play consecrated sphinx etc.

[Pilhas]

I've been noticing that people tend to have different view on what are the good and bad match-ups of the deck. Can we all just post a small overview to see where we stand?
I know the deck can be tailored to beat certain match-ups but we can then discuss what is needed to turn the match-up around.
i guess I'll start:

Team America: Favored
Burn: Favored
Death and Taxes: Favored
Dredge: Favored
Maverick: Small Favored
Miracle Control: Small Favored
RUG Delver: Small Favored

Lands: 50/50
Shardless BUG: 50/50
Reanimator: 50/50
Sneak Attack: 50/50

Blade Control: Small Disfavored
ANT: Disfavored
Omnitell: Disfavored
Elves: Disfavored
MUD: Disfavored
Merfolk: Highly Disfavored

Grixis Control: Never Tested
Infect: Never Tested

My data comes from my statistics and is counting a set of 3 Games.

[apocolyps6]

My list is pretty different so I'm posting it again for your convenience.
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/naya-loam-29-04-14-1/

RUG Delver: Favored
Burn: Favored
ANT: Favored
Merfolk: Favored
Elves: Favored

Miracle Control: Slightly Favored
Blade Control: Slightly Favored
MUD: Slightly Favored
Team America: Slightly Favored

Sneak Attack: 50/50
Reanimator: SB check. 50/50 ATM
Dredge: SB check. Favored ATM

Infect: Unfavored
Omnitell: Unfavored
Death and Taxes: Highly Unfavored

Grixis Control: Never Tested
Maverick: Insufficent Testing
Shardless BUG: Insufficent Testing
Lands: Insufficent Testing

[Seraphix]

I've been noticing that people tend to have different view on what are the good and bad match-ups of the deck. Can we all just post a small overview to see where we stand?


We clearly have some differences of opinion. Bold where I disagree:

RUG Delver: Favored
Reanimator: Favored
Blade Control: Favored (Small Sample)
Lands: Slightly Favored (Small Sample)

Death and Taxes: 50/50 (Small Sample)
Miracle Control: 50/50
Shardless BUG: 50/50 (Small Sample)
Sneak Attack: 50/50 (Small Sample)
ANT: 50/50
MUD: 50/50

Team America: Disfavored
Omnitell: Disfavored (Small Sample)
Burn: Strongly Disfavored
Elves: Strongly Disfavored

Dredge: Never Tested
Maverick: Never Tested
Merfolk: Never Tested
Grixis Control: Never Tested
Infect: Never Tested

[RiverCake]

My list is pretty different so I'm posting it again for your convenience.
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/naya-loam-29-04-14-1/

RUG Delver: Favored
Burn: Favored
ANT: Favored
Merfolk: Favored
Elves: Favored

Miracle Control: Slightly Favored
Blade Control: Slightly Favored
MUD: Slightly Favored
Team America: Slightly Favored

Sneak Attack: 50/50
Reanimator: SB check. 50/50 ATM
Dredge: SB check. Favored ATM

Infect: Unfavored
Omnitell: Unfavored
Death and Taxes: Highly Unfavored

Grixis Control: Never Tested
Maverick: Insufficent Testing
Shardless BUG: Insufficent Testing
Lands: Insufficent Testing

That looks like fun i will give it a try

[Bobmans]

That looks like fun i will give it a try
Naya Loam, the first card on the list is a Bayou.... so much for Naya...

[Seraphix]

Naya Loam, the first card on the list is a Bayou.... so much for Naya...

I've had an actual Naya list scoped out for a while...I've played zero games with it however because I fear its just terrible:

4x Windswept Heath
2x Savannah
2x Taiga
1x Plateau
1x Forest
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Karakas
1x Horizon Canopy
3x Grove of the Burnwillows
1x Stirring Wildwood
2x Tranquil Thicket
1x Secluded Steppe
4x Wasteland
1x Thespian's Stage
1x Dark Depths
1x Maze of Ith

4x Mox Diamond
4x Chalice of the Void
3x Green Sun's Zenith
2x Life from the Loam
2x Sylvan Library
3x Punishing Fire
2x Council's Judgment
2x Elspeth, Knight-Errant

4x Knight of the Reliquary
2x Tarmogoyf
2x Qasali Pridemage
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Courser of Kruphix

SB 3x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
SB 2x Ethersworn Canonist
SB 2x Containment Priest
SB 1x Gaddock Teeg
SB 1x Aven Mindcensor
SB 1x Phyrexian Revoker
SB 1x Krosan Grip
SB 1x Pyroclasm
SB 1x Armageddon
SB 1x Tormod's Crypt

[apocolyps6]

@Bobmans

It's not like the very first line of the description explains why I choose to call it that, right?

If you want to be a pedant I suggest you try a little harder.

[Bobmans]

I've had an actual Naya list scoped out for a while...I've played zero games with it however because I fear its just terrible:

4x Windswept Heath
2x Savannah
2x Taiga
1x Plateau
1x Forest
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Karakas
1x Horizon Canopy
3x Grove of the Burnwillows
1x Stirring Wildwood
2x Tranquil Thicket
1x Secluded Steppe
4x Wasteland
1x Thespian's Stage
1x Dark Depths
1x Maze of Ith

4x Mox Diamond
4x Chalice of the Void
3x Green Sun's Zenith
2x Life from the Loam
2x Sylvan Library
3x Punishing Fire
2x Council's Judgment
2x Elspeth, Knight-Errant

4x Knight of the Reliquary
2x Tarmogoyf
2x Qasali Pridemage
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Courser of Kruphix

SB 3x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
SB 2x Ethersworn Canonist
SB 2x Containment Priest
SB 1x Gaddock Teeg
SB 1x Aven Mindcensor
SB 1x Phyrexian Revoker
SB 1x Krosan Grip
SB 1x Pyroclasm
SB 1x Armageddon
SB 1x Tormod's Crypt

Interesting list, a friend of mine was questioning Naya Zoo being any good. We ended agreeing that it would be a more of a hatebear.dec for it to work. This list looks good. Love Courser in there.

The only thing i question is Tarmogoyf not being underwhelming, replacing him with 1/2 sfm and a Jitte plus another equip might be good aswell. Jitte gives extra board control.

[Seraphix]

Interesting list, a friend of mine was questioning Naya Zoo being any good. We ended agreeing that it would be a more of a hatebear.dec for it to work. This list looks good. Love Courser in there.

The only thing i question is Tarmogoyf not being underwhelming, replacing him with 1/2 sfm and a Jitte plus another equip might be good aswell. Jitte gives extra board control.

I mean, as a Naya player at heart I think this looks awesome, but I seriously question its strategic viability. There's no reason you can't just swap Black in for Red and play Bob, Decay etc. while having the same hatebear plan. Furthermore by playing Chalice you are compromising your ability to play Blasts, which are quite good right now and one of the payoffs of playing Red.

[iamajellydonut]

I have to say, it is satisfying to feast on all of these Grixis Delver/Control decks. Ever so satisfying.

[Kanti]

Was casually reading the thread, saw that someone was thinking of cards to use vs DnT, and tried Darkblast. Figured I'd list a few more...

Darkblast
Toxic Deluge
Massacre
Virtue's Ruin
Dread of Night
Engineered Plague
Pyroclasm
Anger of the Gods
Firespout
Volcanic Fallout
Sulfur Elemental
Orzhov Pontiff
Bane of the Living
Infused Arrows
Engineered Explosives
Infest


Yes, a lot of those suck. Might give you some ideas though.

[iamajellydonut]

Yes, a lot of those suck.

And Infest is strictly inferior to Drown in Sorrow.

[apocolyps6]

Of the suggested cards, my SB contains 2x Toxic Deluge and 2x Pyroclasm and sometimes 1x Darkblast. 4 slots is really the most you want to devote to board wipes.

If I were to add anything from that list I'd add Dread of Night but that card is really narrow.

I've been kind of considering Null Rod/stony silence. It turns off Vials and equipment as well as some SB cards from them. it also is splash hate against Miracles and I guess MUD.
The problem is it turns off mox diamonds which matters in the latter two matchups.

[Pilhas]

Currently finishing the final tweaks to the list to GP Lille.

Land (25)
2x Barren Moor
1x Bayou
1x Cavern of Souls
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Forest
2x Grove of the Burnwillows
1x Karakas
1x Maze of Ith
1x Savannah
2x Scrubland
2x Taiga
2x Tranquil Thicket
4x Wasteland
4x Windswept Heath
Creature (11)
3x Dark Confidant
2x Deathrite Shaman
1x Gaddock Teeg
4x Knight of the Reliquary
1x Scavenging Ooze
Sorcery (7)
3x Green Sun's Zenith
3x Life from the Loam
1x Toxic Deluge
Instant (6)
3x Abrupt Decay
3x Punishing Fire
Artifact (8)
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Mox Diamond
Enchantment (1)
1x Sylvan Library
Planeswalker (2)
2x Liliana of the Veil

Sideboard (15)
1x Choke
3x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Golgari Charm
1x Krosan Grip
4x Leyline of the Void
3x Slaughter Games
1x Sulfur Elemental
1x Toxic Deluge

Currently only messing around with the 25th land(Cavern of Souls), the 11th Creature(DRS) and the 15th SB slot(Sulfur Elemental).
The 2nd DRS really helps in the combo mathcups for the extra ramp/grave control, and also gives an additional option for the turn 1 play. My options here is to go for a goyf for the extra pressure, qasali for the extra utility or bob for the extra card draw.

Cavern of Souls was put in recently due to the 2nd DRS and to better fight miracles(Still not convinced). My options here are way to many to list. I know I don't want a tap land, although a nantuko monastery is great not tapping for colored is an issue. Canopy is meh. Cabal Pit is awkward. I just don't know.

The Sulfur elemental was put in for the mentor matchups, not sure if its great, not much testing with him lately. The other options in my mind are the second Teeg or the Second Charm.

As always, comments and help are appreciated.

[Seraphix]

Currently finishing the final tweaks to the list to GP Lille.

...



How is Slaughter Games testing?

For your "extra" land slot you can always just play a Verdant Catacombs. I think having better access to duals at the cost of some marginal utility is fine. Cavern is definitely quite strong against Miracles, but it will produce only colorless mana a lot of the time.

[Pilhas]

Slaughter Games has been great.

Brought it against miracles in the GPT and against omnitell in testing and always performed... That is the matchups that I felt having the 2 DRS was also great because of the extra t1 plays and many t2 Slaughter Games happen

[apocolyps6]

+1ing the 5 fetch suggestion. I went up to 5 a while ago and have not looked back. But if you can spare it, it makes sense to cut a dual and continue to play the same number of fancy lands. Another Grove would not be the worst.. but it all depends on what you want that slot to be for.

4-0ed last night against TES (2-0) Miracles (2-1) Infect (2-0) and Grixis delver (2-0) and choke over-performed every time I drew it.
With Miracles and Omni being the two best decks atm, and considering I/we would actually like another card for the matchups I'm gonna be playing 2 choke for a while.

[Pilhas]

How do you guys usually SB vs RUG Delver? I usually only bring Toxic Deluge, golgari charm and 0-1 Choke(I think it is too slow), but I recently watched a match in which the guy brought 2 Leylines. Does any thing think this is correct? I can see it being good but usually just a clunky mid game draw

[Seraphix]

How do you guys usually SB vs RUG Delver? I usually only bring Toxic Deluge, golgari charm and 0-1 Choke(I think it is too slow), but I recently watched a match in which the guy brought 2 Leylines. Does any thing think this is correct? I can see it being good but usually just a clunky mid game draw

I just take out G. Teeg and bring in Deluge (I brought in Thrun too when I used to play him). I don't think you want Leyline against them. In your opener, the effect is quite potent against Goose, but drawing one seems terrible. Plus, we still have answers to Goose in the form of Liliana and Ooze. I would also stay away from Choke, it is too slow against RUG. I can't imagine what you're taking out for either of these cards that could be worse.

[Pilhas]

My current SB plan is -1 G. Teeg, -1 Karakas +1 Toxic Deluge +1 Golgari Charm. The choke and leyline were suggested by a fellow player but I agree with you, I believe they are too slow. What are your thoughts on Golgari Charm in the matchup?

[Kanti]

Golgari Charm seems like it would be very crappy against RUG Delver, at least as a one of. In the early game it's nice, but seeing as it's a 1-of you want it to be a good top deck incase you don't see it early on. It looks like a really bad topdeck, and I'd sooner play the Choke as if that thing resolves it should be game. On the other hand, it's probably a powerhouse against UR Delver and very good against anyone playing TNN.

[iamajellydonut]

I just take out G. Teeg and bring in Deluge (I brought in Thrun too when I used to play him). I don't think you want Leyline against them. In your opener, the effect is quite potent against Goose, but drawing one seems terrible. Plus, we still have answers to Goose in the form of Liliana and Ooze. I would also stay away from Choke, it is too slow against RUG. I can't imagine what you're taking out for either of these cards that could be worse.

All of this is spot on. Including the views on Leyline of the Void and Choke.

With regards to Golgari Charm, it's actually not a terrible card, Kanti. It can take a while for Mongeese to get online and Delver doesn't enter the battlefield as a 3/2, so Golgari Charm can actually snipe both of them semi-reliably. It also can beat out a Bolt or let you safely block with multiple weenies to take out a pumped Mongoose or Tarmogoyf.

That being said, given what the deck in question looks like, Golgari Charm is not worth bringing in out of the board. If Qasali Pridemage were in the maindeck or something like that, Golgari Charm would easily be the next card to bring in out of the board. But the fact of the matter is that Golgari Charm just isn't as good as the cards already present in the maindeck. Even “colorless” lands have a higher priority in the match-up.

[Pilhas]

Thanks for the feedback. I was actually with heavy doubts in what to take out if I wanted the Charm. And Charm usually only works early game so...

About the matchup against Grixis Control, I feel I have a couple cards to bring in, but not that much to bring out. The Match seems favorable(really low amount of testing ~10 games) but we surely want the extra sweeper. my options to bring in are:
+1 toxic deluge +1 golgari charm +2 choke, I think the deluge and the chokes are a given and the charm is effective, however I am not sure what to take out....
The only somewhat clear cut seems Liliana and that just dont feel right.
Last couple of games I tried -2 Liliana -1 Decay -1 Maze of Ith(He had nemesis, not Angler or Tasigur)
Thoughts?

[Pilhas]

Does anyone have access to niklas list from Prague Eternal?
Need those techs!

[Julian23]

It will probably be posted on PragueEternal.com soon. From what he told me, it only had 2 Life from the Loam.

[iamajellydonut]

Does anyone have access to niklas list from Prague Eternal?
Need those techs!

I was just typing a post asking for the same thing when I refreshed and saw yours.

Post that sweet tech.

[schniggaz]

I can just do it by myself:

2x Barren Moor
2x Bayou
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Forest
3x Grove of the Burnwillows
1x Karakas
1x Maze of Ith
1x Savannah
1x Scrubland
1x Taiga
1x Tranquil Thicket
4x Wasteland
3x Windswept Heath
3x Verdant Catacombs
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoths

4x Dark Confidant
1x Deathrite Shaman
1x Gaddock Teeg
4x Knight of the Reliquary
1x Scavenging Ooze

2x Green Sun's Zenith
2x Life from the Loam

3x Abrupt Decay
3x Punishing Fire

4x Chalice of the Void
4x Mox Diamond

2x Sylvan Library

3x Liliana of the Veil

Sideboard
2x Choke
2x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Golgari Charm
3x Leyline of the Void
2x Slaughter Games
2x Thoughtseize
1x Reclamation Sage
1x Maelstrom Pulse


I am not going to post a tournament report, but I am happy to talk about the deck at GP Lille. You can just talk to me on friday and discuss your ideas for the GP on saturday ;)

[Pilhas]

Seems like you just shaved everything remotely cute and upped the number on the rest! I like it.

Couple of questions, do you feel the need of the 26th land? And how has Urborg performed?
Is maelstrom pulse a generic answer or a specific card for any matchup?
How does the TS performed lately?

Thanks for the list.
I think I am going to use the tactic of finding Julian and asking for you :)

[iamajellydonut]

Woot! Grats, mang.


3x Grove of the Burnwillows

It makes me happy to see this, because I've been thinking of replacing the Horizon Canopy and the third Bayou with another fetchland and another Grove.

Question tho... I've always felt really light on duals with regards to fetches, and I see you've changed it up dramatically. Did you ever feel too light on mana-producing lands or did it always work out?

[schniggaz]

Julian is probably not at the site on friday ;)

26 Lands? Worked out perfectly. Maze is not a real land. Sometimes you want to side it out anyways, and if that means going down to 24 lands you are doing something wrong.

Urborg? Still not sure about it. I never tutor for it. But sometimes it's the best land when I draw it. This slot has to be at least some sort of a colored mana source ;)

Fetches, Duals? 4 Fetchlands is just not enough. Six Fetchlands make sure that your Deathrite is active and your Knight is big enough. I can see playing one more Dual instead of the Urborg. Sometimes I do wish for a second red source to fetch.

Groves? Try the third Grove. Just bringing your Punishing Fire back once is like drawing an additional card. Your opponent will most likey waste your first Grove anyways.

Maelstrom Pulse? Just a generic answer. I was looking for a way do deal with Entreat Tokens, Jaces and Goyfs. That's it.

TS? Awesome! Most of your other turn one interaction vs combo always needs a Mox Diamond. You can not always mulligan to a Mox Diamond. So TS is your friend. And you need some generic good cards when you board out Chalice of the Void.

[Pilhas]

Guess I have to scream niklas now and then :)

I heard you talk about boarding out chalice. Do you do it often? I usually only bring them out against merfolk, MUD, tezzerator.... And those are matches I play once every full moon.

Thanks for the input and see you in a couple of weeks!

[Dosferra]

Mad props to Niklas once again, congratulations.

[ivy]

Niklas, congrats with the finish! Nice result again :cool:

few questions:
- why did you cut dd combo and play maze again?
- only one teeg. does it connect with 2 slaughter games in the sideboard?
- 2 LftL. maybe is the time to cut all cycling lands and play 3 gemstone caverns?

thanks in advance! :smile:

[schniggaz]

@Pilhas: We will meet there, without screaming please :D

You are correct, there aren't that many matchups where you board out Chalice. But the sideboard is normally build to beat combo. And Thoughtseize is great against these decks and furthermore just a solid card against the rest.

@ivy:
Maze or DD? It is simple. I was not able to fit in two colorless lands and still being satisfied with my manabase, so i decided to go old school with the Maze of Ith. And Maze was the boss :)

Second Teeg? Getting a Teeg out early against Storm is good, but it happened a lot that I drew my Chalices and Slaughter Games after Teeg was in play.A few turns later Gaddock Teeg was bounced and my opponent comboed. So you basically answered the question by yourself ;)

Two or three Loams? Well, I did cut a Loam for a Library. If I want/need to find a Loam, the second Library and more Fetchlands should do it. You never need to draw more then one Loam. Do not cut the cycle-lands completely. The deck is just so good because your opponents have no real tools against it. If you want to, you can play a good game of magic without your graveyard. But you can also just use your graveyard as a super powerful card advantage engine.

But I have to admit that Gemstone Caverns is a really interesting idea. I have no clue if it is good but I had to smile :)

[apocolyps6]

Congrats Niklas.

Great to hear that half the stuff I talk about on here are working for somebody other than myself. :p

Edit: Help an ignorant American out. I can see all the coverage on twitch up to the Final. Is that video just not up yet? I would like to see some sweet "Punishing Maverick " action.

[Pilhas]

Congrats Niklas.

Great to hear that half the stuff I talk about on here are working for somebody other than myself. :p

Edit: Help an ignorant American out. I can see all the coverage on twitch up to the Final. Is that video just not up yet? I would like to see some sweet "Punishing Maverick " action.

I believe they split the finals, so no video. :(

[schniggaz]

Pilhas is correct. We were tired and didn't play the finals. Sorry.

[Seraphix]

Oh man. I thought I was going to play my too often neglected Jund this weekend, and then this happens. Sorry again, Jund.

I feel validated seeing >4 fetches and a 2 Loam/2 Library split. Minute deck differences aside, this deck can clearly go places if one can "git gud", which is super encouraging. I for one would like to see a report or at least MU breakdown if possible.

[autonom]

In what ways is this deck better than RUG lands or RG lands? I see several players in my local meta playing RUG lands and RG lands, but I have never seem aggro loam in action.

[ivy]

Rg lands obviously is stronger and faster than aggro loam and rug lands nowadays thanks to gamble, exploration, ports and 20/20. Aggro Loam is only about a fast chalice and not answered bob. Without them dat deck is a pile.:cry:

[OlegtheSuper]

Rg lands obviously is stronger and faster than aggro loam and rug lands nowadays thanks to gamble, exploration, ports and 20/20. Aggro Loam is only about a fast chalice and not answered bob. Without them dat deck is a pile.:cry:

As lands without DD

[ivy]

As lands without DD

Oleg, i basically mean that rug lands plays tolaria west over gamble :) and that option is slower. 20/20 is in the core of any lands deck, obv :)

[OlegtheSuper]

Oleg, i basically mean that rug lands plays tolaria west over gamble :) and that option is slower. 20/20 is in the core of any lands deck, obv :)

i mean that lands with no Dark Depth is a pile like Loam with no chalice and Bob as you said.

[iamajellydonut]

Lands and 4c Loam are about comparable as Miracles and BUG Delver are. Saying that Chalice and Dark Confidant are the only cards worth caring about completely ignores that there are about a total of twenty-four nonland cards that separate the two archetypes. The deck can, and does more often than not, win games without the two aforementioned cards. There's a reason why I frequently refer to Knight of the Reliquary as the Reliquary God, and Liliana is still the Empress of planeswalkers.

[Warden]

Dumb questions about that recent list:
1. Why not 2 thicket, as there's more green in the manabase?
2. Could Liliana #3 be a Vindicate? Or would that ruin the sum of the deck's parts?

[schniggaz]

I can only give you a short summary of my matchups, since I am preparing for GP Copenhagen right now.

Friday, Legacy Trial:

R 1-5: UR Delver, Jund, MUD, Miracles, Elves -> Record: 5-0
R 6-7: I.D. -> Record: 5-0-2
Top8: OmniTell -> Win
Top4: UR Delver -> Win
Finals: MentorMiracles -> Loss


Saturday, Legacy Main Event:

R1: BYE
R 2-6: Esper, RUG Delver, Reanimate, Deathblade, Storm -> Record: 6-0
R 7-8: I.D. -> Record: 6-0-2
Top8: Storm -> Win
Top4: Storm -> Win
Finals: Split


@Warden: Sometimes you want to play the cycle lands and you already have a lot of green lands. But to be honest, it will probably not make a difference which configuration you play ;)

Liliana is just way too good.

[ivy]

i mean that lands with no Dark Depth is a pile like Loam with no chalice and Bob as you said.

Ok, I clarify. First of all Lands can be with no DD nowadays as I replayed above. It's a core of a deck. Why did you bring this comparison? :really: Basic plan for todays Aggro Loam is a early Chalice of the Void at one and Bob, that give us the significant advantage. It is so important to have them at the first two turns in the play-zone. If we don't have them we will be behind in 80-90% of cases versus any deck in the format, especially with Miracles, Delvers, Grixis Pyromancer and Combo. Also a problem is that We have only 4 copies of these cards and no effects to find them fast. Lands doesn't have these issues. It manages 7-8 demonic tutors (Crop Rotation, Gamble) and we can confidently dredge LftL every turn for options, because it's not hurt a deck at all.


Lands and 4c Loam are about comparable as Miracles and BUG Delver are. Saying that Chalice and Dark Confidant are the only cards worth caring about completely ignores that there are about a total of twenty-four nonland cards that separate the two archetypes. The deck can, and does more often than not, win games without the two aforementioned cards. There's a reason why I frequently refer to Knight of the Reliquary as the Reliquary God, and Liliana is still the Empress of planeswalkers.

Oscar, I think that Lands and 4c Loam are more about comparable as UWx Miracles and UWx Stoneblade variants are :smile: Yes, 20-24 cards separate the two archetypes, but some of those cards have close effects, but obviously they are two different archetypes. Yeah, one day I played versus BUG (with no Maelstrom Pulse and Pernicious Deed). It was so funny to win a game with 4 KotR :tongue: But such cases are unique in my experience :frown:

[apocolyps6]

The T1 chalice is like Exploration out of Lands. Definitely something to be desired asap in all your games, but hardly something you are super behind for not having.

Bob can be just about any 2-3 drop and you aren't feeling bad about that play not being a bob (oh noo just a t2 KotR etc)

If you think there isn't a difference between 4CLoam and Lands in the way we use loams (and other cards) then you should watch someone else play the deck. A bunch of us are even down to 2 loams. If anything this deck is more similar to Maverick or Sylvan Plug or even Jund.

The loam/lands similarity is almost entirely superficial

[mariobross]

hi,

start doing my best compliments to Schniggaz

then I wanted to ask you a question, with your list what are your side in and side out against strongest decks of the moment: Miracle, Grixys (control or Delver), Omnitell, BUG (shardless or Delver) and Storm?

sorry if you get bored with this question but I think that the IN-OUT side are one of the most important things in the game, and from which we can also understand your choices in the deck list.

many thanks advance for your advice,

Mario

[Seraphix]

Dumb questions about that recent list:
1. Why not 2 thicket, as there's more green in the manabase?
2. Could Liliana #3 be a Vindicate? Or would that ruin the sum of the deck's parts?

Just want to point out, Liliana is obviously insane, but I've lost games due to being unable to cast her (BB) a non-trivial amount of times. I'm trying out a Pulse in place of the 3rd right now. Being able to Stone Rain is nice, but the echoing effect on Pulse sells it over Vindicate to me.


I can only give you a short summary of my matchups, since I am preparing for GP Copenhagen right now.

...



Thank you for this!

[iamajellydonut]

Just want to point out, Liliana is obviously insane, but I've lost games due to being unable to cast her (BB) a non-trivial amount of times. I'm trying out a Pulse in place of the 3rd right now. Being able to Stone Rain is nice, but the echoing effect on Pulse sells it over Vindicate to me.

While I understand the pain of having to juggle four colors, I don't think I've ever felt unable to cast Lili. If there are scenarios where I don't have the mana to cast Liliana, it's usually because I've made the choice to not have it. And, again, this is sometimes a pain, but Liliana is honestly just too good.

Anyway, that's pretty beside the point. If you do wanna put a generic kill spell in, my vote would be Vindicate. Maelstrom Pulse is usually the fancy kill of choice because of its color requirements and because the decks don't actually care about land destruction. But having a "Stone Rain" could actually be pretty viable in Loam. Mox Diamond into Stone Rain into Wasteland seems like it could be really good while "two Delvers VALUE!" seems pretty narrow.


The T1 chalice is like Exploration out of Lands. Definitely something to be desired asap in all your games, but hardly something you are super behind for not having.

Bob can be just about any 2-3 drop and you aren't feeling bad about that play not being a bob (oh noo just a t2 KotR etc)

If you think there isn't a difference between 4CLoam and Lands in the way we use loams (and other cards) then you should watch someone else play the deck. A bunch of us are even down to 2 loams. If anything this deck is more similar to Maverick or Sylvan Plug or even Jund.

The loam/lands similarity is almost entirely superficial

This is a great post.

[Seraphix]

...

Anyway, that's pretty beside the point. If you do wanna put a generic kill spell in, my vote would be Vindicate. Maelstrom Pulse is usually the fancy kill of choice because of its color requirements and because the decks don't actually care about land destruction. But having a "Stone Rain" could actually be pretty viable in Loam. Mox Diamond into Stone Rain into Wasteland seems like it could be really good while "two Delvers VALUE!" seems pretty narrow.

...



Haha yes, the "two Delvers VALUE!" play is definitely not a thing. I will Pulse a Delver knowing my opponent has another in his hand every time-between maximizing your mana efficiency, preserving your life total, and playing around soft permission, you simply cannot sandbag Pulse hoping for a two-for-one against an aggressive, disruptive Delver deck. I would actually call it a poor card against Delver, but removal is removal.

To elaborate, the main appeal to me outside of being able to blow up a "thing" is against Miracles, where it can answer Jace and Angels (you don't want Deluge in your deck against Miracles). I also like that it has a textbox against some random stuff like Empty and Bridge From Below. Maybe I'm overvaluing the value of a CMC 3 Sorcery against those decks though?

[iamajellydonut]

Maybe I'm overvaluing the value of a CMC 3 Sorcery against those decks though?

I mean, it's a catch-all. Both are. Thinking that they're going to be the bee's knees against anything is probably an unsafe wager, but they're likely to carry their general weight.

[Pilhas]

Hey guys, Top8 a 31 person event today.

List was niklas prague eternal list with the following changes:
-1 Urborg -1 Fetch -1 Liliana
+1 Cycling +1 Shaman +1 GSZ
-1 Rec Sage
+1 Canonist

Quick overview

G1 Shardless BUG (2-0)
Don't waste your Decays, I believe the matchup revolves a bit around them since everything besides Goyf dies to punishing fire.

G2 4C Delver (2-1)
Able to stablize with an ooze and PFire G1 at 4 life. G2 a TNN closed the game for him since I was unable to find Charm.

G3 Lands(0-2)
1st game he goes 2x Mox(pitch 2wasteland) Exploration Gamble(discard Loam), 2nd turn manabond. SCOOP IT.
2nd Game I wen shaman he went tabernacle, I missplayed by notletting a confidant die to cast a knight which would seal the game.

G4 Jund(2-1)
G1,G3 Again I was conservative enough with the decays so that I had an answer for everything using life as a resource.
G2 I believe I mulligan a keepable hand(fetch Decay Sylvan Bob Mox Knight Punishing) I end up keeping my 6 with 5 land a bob and a lili. Would you guys keep the 7card hand? and the 6th?

G5 ID

Top 8 - Nic wish
Awful pairing, basically deed is a house against us. 1G I missplayed by not casting an early zenith for the knight while facing Ruric(was afraid of the 6 life, god knows why)

This tournament was the pure grindfest with several jund, maverick, miracles and shardless. only 2 combo in the room and 1 burn.

In regards to the list, I think I am gonna cut the 4th cycling for a land(either a fetch, a dual, or a utility(no utility land is need at the moment).
Missed the 3rd Liliana but loved the 2nd shaman/3rd zenith, so I am a bit unsure which route to take.
Loved the Pulse over Delge in the sideboard.
Thoughtseize are bombs post side.

See you guys in Lille

[Cire]

Any hope for this card:

http://i.imgur.com/I0R0sgi.png

[iamajellydonut]

Any hope for this card:

I was coming in here to say the same thing-ish.

Upon the release of Origins, I was considering doing a more classic R/xxx build involving the new Avaricious Dragon. I'd imagine that Molten Vortex would have a home if I did end up trying that out. Otherwise, I think that it definitely has potential as a one-of, but I don't think it would necessarily go towards "staple" territory.

[Cire]

Like. . . almost everyone else - my mind went directly to a Land Tax Deck . . .

A SUPER rough list

Spells- 28
4 Molten Vortex
4 Land Tax
4 Mox Diamond
4 Sword's to plowshares
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Life from the Loam
3 Sylvan Library
3 Punishing Fire

Creatures - 7
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze

Lands - 25
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Wasteland
9 Basic Lands
9 Fetch/Duals

[Vicar in a tutu]

Like. . . almost everyone else - my mind went directly to a Land Tax Deck . . .

A SUPER rough list

Spells- 28
4 Molten Vortex
4 Land Tax
4 Mox Diamond
4 Sword's to plowshares
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Life from the Loam
3 Sylvan Library
3 Punishing Fire

Creatures - 7
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze

Lands - 25
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Wasteland
9 Basic Lands
9 Fetch/Duals
This looks like a really fun deck, but I would never be able to play this: It has no game against combo.

[Richard Cheese]

If you're just playing 3 colors though, why not just go with the old standby: Seismic Assault? The cost is rough but not prohibitive in this deck, and neither is really an early-game card anyway.

[Cire]

If you're just playing 3 colors though, why not just go with the old standby: Seismic Assault? The cost is rough but not prohibitive in this deck, and neither is really an early-game card anyway.

I don't know - playing this turn 1, and being active turn 2 against delver or other creature based decks seems pretty legitimate.

[iamajellydonut]

I don't know - playing this turn 1, and being active turn 2 against delver or other creature based decks seems pretty legitimate.

While I'm supportive of this card, it needs more justification beyond being more copies of Punishing Fire.

[Cire]

While I'm supportive of this card, it needs more justification beyond being more copies of Punishing Fire.

Why not - would seem pretty good against decks that are already vulnerable to PF.

[bryanzoll]

Why not - would seem pretty good against decks that are already vulnerable to PF.

Because this card can be abrupt decayed and countered without being able to recur it. Punishing Fire cannot be abrupt decayed and can be recurred if countered.

While PF can be exiled from a GY, with smart play you can avoid that situation.

[Cire]

Because this card can be abrupt decayed and countered without being able to recur it. Punishing Fire cannot be abrupt decayed and can be recurred if countered.

While PF can be exiled from a GY, with smart play you can avoid that situation.

It's not like I am replacing Punishing fire though :eyebrow:

I mean I get criticism like my proposed deck is bad against combo - which sucks when omnitell is big man on campus, and i know my "land tax" list is rough and I probably don't need to run these cards as a 4 of, but I see potential in running this card as early inevitable engine by turn 2, much the same as Punishing fire. I think using both engines would give us a strong game against miracles (even though they could counter it, but that's why you get it out early)

Anyway - if Im going the wrong direction, I can completely understand. I have a tendency to be over excited over new cards

[aluisiocsantos]

It's gonna be the rage in Modern but i don't thing Aggro Loam is it's home.

[Antonius]

There's actually tremendous upside to this new card. The fact that it costs 1 instead of 3 is huge. Normally, you'd max out at two seismics whereas there's no real drawback to running four of these. You can play it early through pierce/other soft counters and having spares nets you more redundancy against abrupt decay or force of will--usually the only hard answers most decks have to these enchantments. it pairs way better with bob, especially against tempo decks. On the flipside, it is much worse at killing people than seismic but its still a much faster clock than punishing fire.

[Vicar in a tutu]

I mean I get criticism like my proposed deck is bad against combo - which sucks when omnitell is big man on campus, and i know my "land tax" list is rough and I probably don't need to run these cards as a 4 of, but I see potential in running this card as early inevitable engine by turn 2, much the same as Punishing fire. I think using both engines would give us a strong game against miracles (even though they could counter it, but that's why you get it out early)
I think Molten Vortex is interesting as well. Seismic costs RRR, which makes it difficult to cast in three coloured deck. My only problem is that I can't (as of now) picture a shell that would be good for Molten Vortex and at the same time have game against combo.

[Pilhas]

Any fellow loamers going to Lille besides Niklas?

[Cire]

I think Molten Vortex is interesting as well. Seismic costs RRR, which makes it difficult to cast in three coloured deck. My only problem is that I can't (as of now) picture a shell that would be good for Molten Vortex and at the same time have game against combo.

Just a question - has any version of Aggroloam ever had a good game against combo? Blue Splash? Black Splash? I had generally thought that combo and loam never got along in the first place.

[iamajellydonut]

Any fellow loamers going to Lille besides Niklas?

I'll trade you my exceptional company for your $3500 round flight ticket.

[Pilhas]

I'll trade you my exceptional company for your $3500 round flight ticket.

Seems reasonable but maybe next time :) I am trying to go to SCG: NJ so maybe there.

[iamajellydonut]

Just a question - has any version of Aggroloam ever had a good game against combo? Blue Splash? Black Splash? I had generally thought that combo and loam never got along in the first place.

Depending on what you mean by "combo" (ANT&Omni), it's not a "bad" game. It's just the same reliability issues that every other non-blue deck has with combo. Game one, Loam can steal silly victories with Chalice of the Void or a Gaddock Teeg if you can identify your opponent's deck early enough. Game two, the only cards the sideboard that aren't effective against at least one of the Big Bads, unless we're also discussing Elves, are any Toxic Deluges.


Seems reasonable but maybe next time :) I am trying to go to SCG: NJ so maybe there.

If you're talking about the one in November, I'll see you then.

[Cire]

Depending on what you mean by "combo" (ANT&Omni), it's not a "bad" game. It's just the same reliability issues that every other non-blue deck has with combo. Game one, Loam can steal silly victories with Chalice of the Void or a Gaddock Teeg if you can identify your opponent's deck early enough. Game two, the only cards in my sideboard that aren't effective against at least one of the Big Bads, unless we're also discussing Elves, are my 1-2 Toxic Deluges.

So the knock against molten vortex is that it is 1CMC and prevents running COTV main deck, and that Aggroloam needs COTV main deck to be viable against combo?

[iamajellydonut]

So the knock against molten vortex is that it is 1CMC and prevents running COTV main deck, and that Aggroloam needs COTV main deck to be viable against combo?

Oh, I'm sorry. I was an idiot and didn't even look at what you were responding to. I just replied to your post in general.

Anyway, I can't really get behind Vicar's statement. Sure, if you go full force behind Molten Vortex, you might need to think twice about using Chalice of the Void, but that doesn't necessarily preclude you from having "game" against combo. Take out Chalice. Put in Thalia. Continue to pack your sideboard full of various hate. Problem relatively solved.

My own reservations with regards to Molten Vortex, again, have to do with its redundancy alongside Punishing Fire. "You can never have too many repeatable Shocks" or whatever, but we don't even run a full set of Punishing Fires. What the hell are we going to do with two to four more copies of a related effect? Make no mistake, that activation cost is an extremely limiting factor in terms of doing anything but pinging the hell out of their creatures. An attempt at their life is going to take a while.

[Cire]

Thanks for the comments. I think the problem of my conception is that - I'm totally okay with playing multiple ping like effects to control the board. But that's exactly the problem. I am thinking of Loam control instead of Aggro Loam. Whether the concept of Land Tax/ Molten Vortex holds up is besides the point apparently, this is the wrong thread for that very concept.

[iamajellydonut]

Thanks for the comments. I think the problem of my conception is that - I'm totally okay with playing multiple ping like effects to control the board. But that's exactly the problem. I am thinking of Loam control instead of Aggro Loam. Whether the concept of Land Tax/ Molten Vortex holds up is besides the point apparently, this is the wrong thread for that very concept.

Eh, I don't think it's necessarily the wrong thread, but you're definitely going to have to ignore all of the current deck cores in order to get it to work.

[Antonius]

Jelly, after playing around with it a bit I get the impression that 4x molten vortex could be a lot better than any number of punishing fire. If your loam goes according to plan, you always get to the mid and late game with 5-6 lands. With that much mana and loam, vortex is a 3-4 turn clock. Granted, with that same mana, seismic would be a two-turn clock but despite the activation cost, going to the dome happens much faster than you think. Especially when you consider that you could drop a vortex and mox diamond and start shocking them on turn 1.

As far as combo goes, this deck has been and likely always will be a meta game predator, feasting on creatures and blue control decks. Combo will always, at best, be between slightly unfavorable and nigh-unwinnable. That's just how the rock/paper/scissors of the format plays out. I would say since we're already good at beating creatures and cause graveyard hate is so tremendously effective against graveyard decks, stack the sideboard for elves, reanimator and turning off passed in flames. Against show and tell and other combo, imo, you're just not going to get the hate cards consistently enough for it to be worth the slots.

[apocolyps6]

So what you guys are saying is that compared to the current generation of loam decks, molten vortex gives us a better creature matchup at the expense of making combo worse. Sounds like we are fixing a problem we do not have. Besides D&T I'm not sure I'd even want to improve any creature matchups. You are also suggesting increasing our reliance on the graveyard which this deck has been moving away from.

[iamajellydonut]

So what you guys are saying is that compared to the current generation of loam decks, molten vortex gives us a better creature matchup at the expense of making combo worse. Sounds like we are fixing a problem we do not have. Besides D&T I'm not sure I'd even want to improve any creature matchups. You are also suggesting increasing our reliance on the graveyard which this deck has been moving away from.

Only Vicar stated that our combo match-up would inherently become worse.

As to the graveyard bit, that's actually something that I was going to bring up in response to Antonius. Loam is great. But relying on it to power something else will cost you dearly. If you want this to work, Land Tax or some comparable effect, as suggested by Cire, would need to be utilized.

[Cire]

Only Vicar stated that our combo match-up would inherently become worse.

As to the graveyard bit, that's actually something that I was going to bring up in response to Antonius. Loam is great. But relying on it to power something else will cost you dearly. If you want this to work, Land Tax or some comparable effect, as suggested by Cire, would need to be utilized.

Hmm, if I am going to keep the Land Tax/Molten Vortex discussion on this thread then here are my current thoughts. . . in order to give it some game against combo we need to run either COTV, black for discard or blue for fow/meddling mage? COTV can't happen, because of Land Tax and Molten Vortex, so we are stuck dealing with a 4 color deck. Luckily molten vortex allows us to play 4 color. But all other problems with 4 color decks aside, the problem with this 4 color deck is that it needs to run X basic lands for Land Tax. That's already a heavy restriction in terms of deck building, but to continue, we need to figure out how many basic lands X is. . . . honestly I have no clue. I believe the number is much lower that 12, for example, maybe even 8, but only testing would show that.

Now between blue and black: probably black, not only is it traditional, we simply don't have room to play 18 blue spells needed for fow to function. Since we're playing black, the best anti combo cards are thought seize and other discard spells. . . Let's say we need to run around 8 main deck black anti-combo cards.

Additionally, since we are playing black we might as well run the best black cards: Dark Confidant, Abrupt decay, and Deathrite Shaman. DRS may be a little weak because we have to run more basics, but it might be necessary to provide Red mana for Vortex. Confidant is actually pretty good as Vortex costs 1 instead of Assualt's 3.

So as a skeleton we have:

- Definite
4 Mox Diamond
4 Sword's to plowshares
4 Thought Seize
4 Wasteland

-Undefined Card
4 "Black Anti-Combo"

-Undefined Number
X Molten Vortex
X Land Tax
X Green Sun's Zenith
X Life from the Loam
X Sylvan Library
X Punishing Fire
X Abrupt Decay

X Tarmogoyf
X DRS
X Dark Confidant
X "Utility Creatures"

X Grove of the Burnwillows
X Basic Lands
X Fetch
X Duals
X Other

Before we go any further in trying to define those numbers, we (or I) have to consider if any pile of those above cards could go head to head with omnitell in any significant way? I am not sure, but I think the answer might be no - the anti-combo cards (the discard) don't apply that much pressure. Maybe the "Black Anti-Combo" should go for 4 Scullers? But even then I am unsure that's enough "anti-Combo" and pressure to fix that matchup.

Edit - I guess you could also run Engineered explosives (for elves and other problematic stuff), Thalia, Ethersworn Cannoist, and Caverns (for humans) and take out Goyf, Utility and GSZ. . .

[Antonius]

So what you guys are saying is that compared to the current generation of loam decks, molten vortex gives us a better creature matchup at the expense of making combo worse. Sounds like we are fixing a problem we do not have. Besides D&T I'm not sure I'd even want to improve any creature matchups. You are also suggesting increasing our reliance on the graveyard which this deck has been moving away from.

No, I was talking about aggro loam as an archetype in general. Playing the deck for 4+ years at hundreds of tournaments you really get a feel for where it sits in the meta. It's the ultimate midrange deck, crushing aggro with big creatures and outlasting blue with loam. This gameplan has always had an inherent blind spot in against combo. even though I haven't played in more than a year, I highly doubt this dynamic has changed.

And yeah, to run vortex you'd have to wind back the clock to jund, getting the red you need just isn't tenable with four color manabase in knight toolbox and all that. But Crusher has always been more resilient to hate than knight so the graveyard argument becomes a bit of a wash. Moreover, the way you frame things also dismisses the fact that this deck -usually- draws more lands than any other and you also draw extra lands off of bob. Vortex--and assault for that matter--are far from dead cards without loam.

[apocolyps6]

Antonius - Things were very different in that one year you were playing this deck that I wasn't, but these days I'd be 100% comfortable playing a whole event worth of non-Omni combo decks. The kind of things you are suggesting are exactly the reason the combo matchup was bad. It is fine to decide to have a bad matchup somewhere, but you should know that it actually is a choice.


Cire - I don't see why you want to play black for what you admit are sub-par anti-combo cards. Playing some combination of Canonist, Thalia, and possibly revokers and spheres is gonna do a lot more for you than fighting their brainstorms with your thoughtseizes. Altho decay is a compelling reason to play black all by itself. You may or may not want to also play some enlightened tutors to search for hate or engines.

[lyracian]

Hmm, if I am going to keep the Land Tax/Molten Vortex discussion on this thread then here are my current thoughts. . . in order to give it some game against combo

That's already a heavy restriction in terms of deck building, but to continue, we need to figure out how many basic lands X is. . . . honestly I have no clue. I believe the number is much lower that 12, for example, maybe even 8, but only testing would show that.

The problem with the Land Tax route is you are discarding those lands to activate Vortex and they are not there the next turn Tax triggers. With 9 basics you get at most 3 full Taxes. Probably less as you have drawn at least one. NicFit runs 7-8 basics to support Explorer on a 3 colour mana base; I really do not see this working well with 4 colours and that many basic lands. Ideally you want a primarily two colour deck with a light splash of a third (say 1 Basic, 2-3 Dual lands and Diamond). The question becomes is it worth replacing Chalice with cards like Thalia, Sphere of Resistance just to play these one mana enchantments?

It is possible to cheat a Deathrite into play past chalice with GSZ but it is not really easy to cheat Vortex into play. The new card "Starfield of Nix" might allow a Boros control deck to do so. There might be a Vor-Tax deck that can be built but I think it needs more thought as to what its actual goals are.

[Cire]

The question becomes is it worth replacing Chalice with cards like Thalia, Sphere of Resistance just to play these one mana enchantments?


Fair enough - I am currently fooling around with a weird hybrid of Death and Taxes and my above list, that I affectionately called Loam and Taxes

-13 Creatures
4 Thalia
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Gaddog Teeg
3 Ethersworn Cannoist

-21 Spells
4 STP
4 Mox Diamond
3 Molten Vortex
3 Life From the Loam
3 Punishing Fire
2 Sylvan Library
2 Land Tax

-26 Lands
4 Wasteland
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Mountain
2 Plains
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Forest
6 Assorted Fetch (So Far Even Split)

So far in just running the deck - it either works amazingly well. . . . or doesn't - far more often. Honestly - after all my tinkering, if Molten Vortex has a home - I doubt this is it. :cry:

[Aggro_zombies]

So far in just running the deck - it either works amazingly well. . . . or doesn't - far more often. Honestly - after all my tinkering, if Molten Vortex has a home - I doubt this is it. :cry:
Vortex is just a vastly worse Seismic Assault. Most of the appeal of running the latter card is the ability to cast Loam twice in a turn and dumpster the opponent with all the lands you just got back. If the argument against Assault is that RRR is too hard in a four-color manabase, then Vortex isn't going to be any good either because how many times are you going to be able to activate it? At that point you could just run Grim Lavamancer.

As for cutting Chalice, that's probably fine. I've long maintained that this deck has more to gain from having its own one-drops than it does by occasionally shutting off the opponent's Brainstorms.

[Antonius]

I think I have a list that best utilizes vortex.

4 wooded foothills
4 bloodstained mire
1 forest
3 badlands
2 taiga
1 bayou
1 plateau
4 wasteland
1 tranquil thicket
4 forgotten cave
1 dryad arbor

4 mox diamond

4 dark confidant
1 deathrite shaman
1 sylvan safekeeper
1 gaddock teeg
1 tarmogoyf
1 scavenging ooze
3 countryside crusher

4 loam
3 green sun's zenith

4 molten vortex

4 abrupt decay

3 Liliana of the Veil

Sideboard --
1 green sun's zenith
1 gaddock teeg
4 ethersworn canonist
3 golgari charm
1 sylvan safekeeper
1 reclamation sage
4 leyline of the void

I only got to run gsz + safekeeper in a couple of tourneys so it definitely needs more testing but I really like the concept. The creatures in this deck can really takeover so protection can go a really long way.

[Seraphix]

FYI, Niklas (schniggaz) has a feature match on at GP Lille. He is 4-0 going into this round (Round 5).

[mariobross]

FYI, Niklas (schniggaz) has a feature match on at GP Lille. He is 4-0 going into this round (Round 5).

can you write the link to see the streaming?

Thanks

[Gammelanz]

Fair enough - I am currently fooling around with a weird hybrid of Death and Taxes and my above list, that I affectionately called Loam and Taxes

-13 Creatures
4 Thalia
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Gaddog Teeg
3 Ethersworn Cannoist

-21 Spells
4 STP
4 Mox Diamond
3 Molten Vortex
3 Life From the Loam
3 Punishing Fire
2 Sylvan Library
2 Land Tax

[...]

So far in just running the deck - it either works amazingly well. . . . or doesn't - far more often. Honestly - after all my tinkering, if Molten Vortex has a home - I doubt this is it. :cry:

4 Thalia and 3 Canonist mainboard in a deck with Punishing Fire, Loam and Mox Diamonds does not feel right. You will nonbo yourself all the time?

[apocolyps6]

Congrats to Christoph Alsheimer and Jaroslav Boucek for putting 2 copies of 4C Loam in the top of GP Lille

http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/gplil15/top-8-decklists-2015-07-05

And congrats to magic coverage for not putting Lands or Maverick in either deck name.

[Seraphix]

While thrilled with the results, I must admit I'm surprised-I thought the Omni matchup was prohibitively bad for this deck. I have yet to try Slaughter Games in a non-Burning Wish shell though.

[apocolyps6]

My understanding is that Omni got hated out pretty hard in this tournament.

[lordofthepit]

Congrats to Christoph Alsheimer and Jaroslav Boucek for putting 2 copies of 4C Loam in the top of GP Lille

http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/gplil15/top-8-decklists-2015-07-05

And congrats to magic coverage for not putting Lands or Maverick in either deck name.

IMO, Aggro Loam was the most impressive deck of the GP. There weren't very many copies of it, and only three players on the deck made day two, but two made top 8 and the third finished 52nd. That third player also recently won Prague Eternal and a previous BOM.

[BlackStarDeceiver]

IMO, Aggro Loam was the most impressive deck of the GP. There weren't very many copies of it, and only three players on the deck made day two, but two made top 8 and the third finished 52nd. That third player also recently won Prague Eternal and a previous BOM.

Christoph got the decklist from Niklas (Schniggaz on here) and Jaroslav quoted that he based his list off the one from Prague. The deck is super solid. I ve been playing it several times after BOM last year and it is a blast to play while being powerful. T1 Chalice is strong right now and a T2 Teeg is amazingly good against Storm G1. This deck is not as soft to combo as you might think.
Sneak and Show felt bad, because they have 8 enablers but they have been absorbed by Omni, which is a lot softer to Chalice and Teeg.

[Seraphix]

Christoph got the decklist from Niklas (Schniggaz on here) and Jaroslav quoted that he based his list off the one from Prague. The deck is super solid. I ve been playing it several times after BOM last year and it is a blast to play while being powerful. T1 Chalice is strong right now and a T2 Teeg is amazingly good against Storm G1. This deck is not as soft to combo as you might think.
Sneak and Show felt bad, because they have 8 enablers but they have been absorbed by Omni, which is a lot softer to Chalice and Teeg.

Elves and Omni are the only combo decks I feel disfavored against.

I think Sneak is fine matchup as Karakas actually has a textbox against them, unlike against Omni.

[testing32]

There are some other bad match ups. Shardless doesn't feel good. I doubt burn is great either.

[lyracian]

While thrilled with the results, I must admit I'm surprised-I thought the Omni matchup was prohibitively bad for this deck. I have yet to try Slaughter Games in a non-Burning Wish shell though.

What Niklas said back in Feb about Omni

OmniShow is different. I am also looking for ways to beat it. Gaddock is not as effictive here. Slaughter Games on Show and Tell should normally seal the deal, but is often times too slow.
Dropping Ethersworn Canonist off Show and Tell and destroying the Omniscience with Golgari Charm requires two cards.
Dropping Qasali off Show and Tell, lets them cast Emrakul before having priority to destroy the enchantment.
Reclamation Sage is way better. Play him. In addition it is way better at fighting Blood Moon in other Matchups.
I thought about playing Nevermore to fight OmniShow.

[anwei]

I'm new to this deck. Ran a slightly modified version of Niklas' Prague list at a small event, but played Depths and it seemed very good (in part due to improbably frequent natural drawing). What informed the widespread decision not to play it? I get that the colorless slots hurt and double-knight activation usually means you're up anyway, but any more insight?

[iamajellydonut]

What informed the widespread decision not to play it? I get that the colorless slots hurt and double-knight activation usually means you're up anyway, but any more insight?

I mean, you basically just nailed it. The hoops you have to jump through make it more of a gimmick than an actual strategy. Those two land slots are precious, and playing two useful lands instead will make your overall game just so much better.

[BlackStarDeceiver]

I'm new to this deck. Ran a slightly modified version of Niklas' Prague list at a small event, but played Depths and it seemed very good (in part due to improbably frequent natural drawing). What informed the widespread decision not to play it? I get that the colorless slots hurt and double-knight activation usually means you're up anyway, but any more insight?

You have to cut Maze if you want to do this. Part of why Maverick can run it is because they have a lot more mana dorks, though i have played with it and won because of the combo.

[Koby]

You have to cut Maze if you want to do this. Part of why Maverick can run it is because they have a lot more mana dorks, though i have played with it and won because of the combo.

Even then, Maverick cut Maze of Ith years ago because of how little it mattered - but overall yes, I agree that Maze or DD/Stage combo, but not both. Mox Diamond helps somewhat to mitigate that awkward no-colored-mana opener tho.

[apocolyps6]

It is really lili's fault that the kronberger list can't play Lage. -1 Maze -1 Dual +1 Stage +1 depths downgrades a black land to a colorless land. The manabase is strained as is at 1BB. You could "downgrade" other lands but that would probably be even worse. Otherwise Lage is great in the shell. Stage is a fine land on it's own with the land toolbox.

I'm playing this list (http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/15-06-15-naya-loam/). There is no lili (personal preference) so I don't have the mana constraints and am able to make use of this extra angle of attack.

[iamajellydonut]

It is really lili's fault that the kronberger list can't play Lage. -1 Maze -1 Dual +1 Stage +1 depths downgrades a black land to a colorless land. The manabase is strained as is at 1BB. You could "downgrade" other lands but that would probably be even worse. Otherwise Lage is great in the shell. Stage is a fine land on it's own with the land toolbox.

I'm playing this list (http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/15-06-15-naya-loam/). There is no lili (personal preference) so I don't have the mana constraints and am able to make use of this extra angle of attack.

On the other hand, you lose Lili.

[Lormador]

IMO, Aggro Loam was the most impressive deck of the GP. There weren't very many copies of it, and only three players on the deck made day two, but two made top 8 and the third finished 52nd. That third player also recently won Prague Eternal and a previous BOM.

It was indeed the most impressive thing that happened, so where is the coverage of it?

I was pulling my hair out (not that there's much left) looking at yet another Delver game.

[supremePINEAPPLE]

It was indeed the most impressive thing that happened, so where is the coverage of it?

I was pulling my hair out (not that there's much left) looking at yet another Delver game.That would of required at least 1 person on the coverage team to have a passing familiarity with legacy. That's clearly a bit too much to ask of them for a legacy gp.

It's awesome to see this deck do well. I've had Niklas BoM 2014 list in my modo decks forever and love playing it every now and then.

[Lormador]

I just don't see how that can be so difficult. I mean, most of the people on this site could have handled the task of taking a walk around the top 30-50 tables or so, identifying the unusual choices that most of us really want to see on camera, and getting those folks to the feature match area. As matters stand, I have spent the better part of a workday poking around the internet for some video coverage of the Aggro Loam decks that put a pair of people in the top 8. Certainly that's a remarkable event and these decks should be given some more attention. I can't imagine any serious Legacy player looking at this top 8 and not wishing to see the Loam decks in action, wiping the floor with one of our beloved DTT monstrosities.

I suppose I'm just complaining about the coverage and not contributing to the Aggro Loam deck discussion though, so I'll pipe down. I was surprised by the actual lists that the players were running, but I supopose the answer to the question "Why didn't they play X?" where X is a double mana cost spell like Devastating Dreams or something like Burning Wish is Liliana of the Veil. How she can be so good in a meta that seemed filled with those "army in a box" critters and DTTs is a mystery to me. Gee, wouldn't it be nice to have some video footage of expert players piloting the deck to a GP top 8?

[Pilhas]

From what me and niklas could gather, there were 6 4Color Loam lists in the field, probably 1 or 2 slipped through us. 3 of us scrubbed out pretty early but the ones who get it rolling, finished with high standings. It was a good event for the deck, a flush of fresh air to the legacy meta.
IMO the Omni matchups is harsh as hell and the burn matchup is very tricky also. the other combos are more easily hated out.
The miracle mentor matchup is very tricky. They attack through a different angle so we should expect some sulfur elementals in the sideboard soon. From what I could see the Thalias are awesome in a variety of matchups.
The single most dificult thing I can point out while playing this deck is deciding what is a keepable hand.
And if you ever go to an event where Niklas is in, go talk to him! He loves the deck and is a super friendly guy.
Any questions about the event feel free to ask

[Seraphix]

From what me and niklas could gather, there were 6 4Color Loam lists in the field, probably 1 or 2 slipped through us. 3 of us scrubbed out pretty early but the ones who get it rolling, finished with high standings. It was a good event for the deck, a flush of fresh air to the legacy meta.
IMO the Omni matchups is harsh as hell and the burn matchup is very tricky also. the other combos are more easily hated out.
The miracle mentor matchup is very tricky. They attack through a different angle so we should expect some sulfur elementals in the sideboard soon. From what I could see the Thalias are awesome in a variety of matchups.
The single most dificult thing I can point out while playing this deck is deciding what is a keepable hand.
And if you ever go to an event where Niklas is in, go talk to him! He loves the deck and is a super friendly guy.
Any questions about the event feel free to ask

What was your record? What did you play against?

I creeped on Niklas during one of his matches at GPNJ but didn't try talking to him :rolleyes:.

[Pilhas]

An awful 3-3... And I had 2 byes :rolleyes:

Played against Grixis control, missplayed g1 and I went on a tilt. Kept an awful hand g2.
R2 was against Merfolk, won easily but he was not a good player by a mile.
Still on tilt for R3 where I faced d&t. much like the 1st game of the day, I played reaaly good and then missplayed just before stabilization. Kept an awful hand g2.
R4 was against Omni where he natural s&t 3rd turn into omni->emrakul(no other cards played by him :frown:) and G2 he brainstorms 1st turn and combo 2nd turn.
Besides the omni matchup it was entirely my bad..... Can't go on tilt after a missplay


Still was a great event since both my friends ended up in 21(Miracles)/55(Elves) and loam had a great performance.

Did you play loam? Next time chat a bit, learned a lot, he explained some sideboard options perfectly.

[Kanti]

Wanted to just pipe in and say yes, the coverage was a sham. And I am confused as hell as to why Lilli is good in this meta as well, though I guess if you are using spot removal to take out YP's then her ability becomes good. How she fairs against DTT though... well then, someone explain!

Also, gratz to the archetype. Keep tuning your list guys, apparently you can beat blue.

[iamajellydonut]

And I am confused as hell as to why Lilli is good in this meta as well, though I guess if you are using spot removal to take out YP's then her ability becomes good. How she fairs against DTT though... well then, someone explain!

"Lili isn't bad at all. There are decks that you don't necessarily want to see her against, but that has always been true. They're just given different names now and again. On the whole, she's an absolute powerhouse against a vast majority of decks. Yes, she's lackluster against U/R Delver, but even there she's not a dead card. Just not as good as Golgari Charm and whatever else."

That's what I responded with half a year ago, and it still fits pretty well now. The Young Pyromancer problem has been around for ages, and it's still only featured in a single tier 1.5 deck. Yes, she's less than awesome against Young Pyromancer specifically, but that just means you have to board a/some copies out post-board.

"Dig Through Time exists" isn't a very relevant problem either. With regards to Liliana, I'm actually pleased as shit that Dig Through Time exists. When it comes to incessantly complaining about Dig Through Time (not necessarily poking fun at you), people always seem to think that it just sort of gets added to the deck. Like the 60 card pile is secretly 62 or 63 cards. But the truth is that it's still 60 cards. And rather than play less cantrips in order to fit in what could be seen as the really big cantrip, people are actually replacing the utility and sometimes even the meat of their decks with Dig Through Time. I haven't had to sit across from a Council's Judgment in fukken ages, and it feels great.

Make no mistake, Liliana is still Empress.

[Pilhas]

Liliana is a freaking empress. If you don't have her you are cold to a TNN. Only option is to race and sometimes you cannot handle it

[Kanti]

"Lili isn't bad at all. There are decks that you don't necessarily want to see her against, but that has always been true. They're just given different names now and again. On the whole, she's an absolute powerhouse against a vast majority of decks. Yes, she's lackluster against U/R Delver, but even there she's not a dead card. Just not as good as Golgari Charm and whatever else."

That's what I responded with half a year ago, and it still fits pretty well now. The Young Pyromancer problem has been around for ages, and it's still only featured in a single tier 1.5 deck. Yes, she's less than awesome against Young Pyromancer specifically, but that just means you have to board a/some copies out post-board.

"Dig Through Time exists" isn't a very relevant problem either. With regards to Liliana, I'm actually pleased as shit that Dig Through Time exists. When it comes to incessantly complaining about Dig Through Time (not necessarily poking fun at you), people always seem to think that it just sort of gets added to the deck. Like the 60 card pile is secretly 62 or 63 cards. But the truth is that it's still 60 cards. And rather than play less cantrips in order to fit in what could be seen as the really big cantrip, people are actually replacing the utility and sometimes even the meat of their decks with Dig Through Time. I haven't had to sit across from a Council's Judgment in fukken ages, and it feels great.

Make no mistake, Liliana is still Empress.

Trust me buddy, I want DTT to stick around. It powers up my pet-deck. Nothing gets between a man and hit pet deck. What did you guys think of Ethersworn vs Thalia in the sb's btw? If you are siding out PFires, then Ethersworns seem so much stronger at fighting combo decks.

[iamajellydonut]

What did you guys think of Ethersworn vs Thalia in the sb's btw? If you are siding out PFires, then Ethersworns seem so much stronger at fighting combo decks.

They both do a pretty great job against all of the decks that they overlap, but I think Ethersworn Canonist being a relevant hatebear against Elves puts it over the top for me. I don't really care about any of the match-ups that Thalia has game against. Like Reanimator and such.

I wish that wasn't the case though. Because I do really like Thalia as a card.

[Pilhas]

According to niklas, the thalias serve more purpose in more MU.
Omni: you usually don't cast Canonist and wait for the s&t/you want to actually cast Thalia while using the sage for that purpose.
Miracles: Thalias are effective here while canonist are not.
Delver: You want to take out the GSZ because of the dazes/pierces, so you bring the thalias to delay their tempo.

IMO I believe we can't drop Canonists right now, but I imagine having a 2T/1C split or somehow a 2/2 split in there. There is also the possible rise of the Mentor which will make us get a sulfur elemental in there

[iamajellydonut]

"There are currently 11 users browsing this thread. (4 members and 7 guests)
schniggaz"

Wait for it...

[schniggaz]

This was just an amazing weekend!

It was nice meeting Pilhas, unfortunately he didn't finish that well. And Seraphix you should have talked to me :(

My total record was 10-3-1 and I.D. in the last round to lock the Top 64. My roommate Christoph Alsheimer and me played the exact 75.

We managed to defeat three Burn decks!!! That is enough to justify Thalia :D In all the Combo Matchups Thalia and Canonist are both really good, but Thalia plays a bit better with Wasteland against Storm. Paying three mana for their Abrupt Decay will probably not work.
And as Pilhas already mentioned, you can also bring it in against Miracles and Tempo. But I have to admit, that he is worse when we start playing Sulfur Elemental.

If I am about to play a tournament tomorrow I would play the exact 60 cards maindeck again and play the following SB:

3 Leyline of the Void
2 Thoughtseize
2 Slaughter Games
2 Golgari Charm
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Choke
1 Engineered Plague
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Ethersworn Canonist


edit:
I had three feature matches, but only one was on camera, Round 5 against EsperBlade. I also had a deck tech with Matej Zatlkaj, but did not find it online until now.
Also Gerry Thompson wrote something about the deck on SCG. "Mostly forgotten archetype" argh!

[Pilhas]

"There are currently 11 users browsing this thread. (4 members and 7 guests)
schniggaz"

Wait for it...

Called it :D

BTW guys, I am having a tournament in a couple of weeks, but the field there is usually midrange(lots of modern players) so I know the meta will be a lot of nic fit/jund and so on....
Should I just pick up storm or you believe the deck can make it?

[schniggaz]

Called it :D

BTW guys, I am having a tournament in a couple of weeks, but the field there is usually midrange(lots of modern players) so I know the meta will be a lot of nic fit/jund and so on....
Should I just pick up storm or you believe the deck can make it?

Wtf? There is never a reason to play a different deck!
I would play the DD Combo in this meta. You can also cut a few sideboard cards against combo and play a Maelstrom Pulse, Garruk Relentless, Ajani Vengeant or something like that.

[Pilhas]

Wtf? There is never a reason to play a different deck!
I would play the DD Combo in this meta. You can also cut a few sideboard cards against combo and play a Maelstrom Pulse, Garruk Relentless, Ajani Vengeant or something like that.

Thank god I didn't ask in the GP or you would have smacked me in the head :smile:
Gonna tune it then.. maybe a couple of kill spells like murderous cut will not hurt either

[iamajellydonut]

Wtf? There is never a reason to play a different deck!

Bears.dec would like to disagree (http://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/2ltaaz/someone_showed_up_to_the_scg_columbus_legacy_open/), but yeah. I don't see any problem with continuing to jam Loam.

[Seraphix]

An awful 3-3... And I had 2 byes :rolleyes:

Played against Grixis control, missplayed g1 and I went on a tilt. Kept an awful hand g2.
R2 was against Merfolk, won easily but he was not a good player by a mile.
Still on tilt for R3 where I faced d&t. much like the 1st game of the day, I played reaaly good and then missplayed just before stabilization. Kept an awful hand g2.
R4 was against Omni where he natural s&t 3rd turn into omni->emrakul(no other cards played by him :frown:) and G2 he brainstorms 1st turn and combo 2nd turn.
Besides the omni matchup it was entirely my bad..... Can't go on tilt after a missplay


Still was a great event since both my friends ended up in 21(Miracles)/55(Elves) and loam had a great performance.

Did you play loam? Next time chat a bit, learned a lot, he explained some sideboard options perfectly.

It happens mate, even the best of us mess up tournaments sometimes. I played Maverick at GPNJ but I already knew about Niklas's deck (I actually bought a bunch of the cards for it there.


Trust me buddy, I want DTT to stick around. It powers up my pet-deck. Nothing gets between a man and hit pet deck. What did you guys think of Ethersworn vs Thalia in the sb's btw? If you are siding out PFires, then Ethersworns seem so much stronger at fighting combo decks.

I think I'm going to stick with Canonist right now, but I definitely see the merits of Thalia. Does anyone think its worth bringing Canonist in against the fair Dig decks? I've been trying that out when I play Maverick and it seems ok (obviously different matchup dynamics though).


This was just an amazing weekend!

It was nice meeting Pilhas, unfortunately he didn't finish that well. And Seraphix you should have talked to me :(

My total record was 10-3-1 and I.D. in the last round to lock the Top 64. My roommate Christoph Alsheimer and me played the exact 75.

We managed to defeat three Burn decks!!! That is enough to justify Thalia :D In all the Combo Matchups Thalia and Canonist are both really good, but Thalia plays a bit better with Wasteland against Storm. Paying three mana for their Abrupt Decay will probably not work.
And as Pilhas already mentioned, you can also bring it in against Miracles and Tempo. But I have to admit, that he is worse when we start playing Sulfur Elemental.

...



Holy sh*t three burn decks???

If I ever see you at a tournament again I'll definitely say hi! Also, I think I have a crush on Christoph, he is like, absurdly handsome.

[rlesko]

I've played this deck casually a few times and my biggest issue has been deciding whether I should dredge Loam or not. Any insight into that would be great. Also, has anyone tried running a Volrath's Stronghold?

[iamajellydonut]

I've played this deck casually a few times and my biggest issue has been deciding whether I should dredge Loam or not.

It's easy to get caught up in the frenzy of "I have Loam, therefore I dredge", but the truth is that you should only dredge sparingly. Only dredge when you actually need to dredge. Wastelocking someone out of the game is great, but do you have more than one Wasteland and/or can you actually achieve the lock or would the attempt just slow them down a little bit as they sit back on basics and uncracked fetches? Would dredging Loam to get back cycle lands be cost effective card advantage or would you just be spending a whole turn effectively flipping three more cards into your graveyard? If you want Punishing Fire, what are the odds of dredging for it and are there other options?

The closest you should ever get to snap dredging Loam is if you need to hit a land drop, and even then you shouldn't actually dredge on cruise control. Just really think through your dredges and you'll be fine.

As far as Volrath's Stronghold, it's not really a bad card, but the deck is already running somewhat short on colored sources and available utility, so what amounts to a three mana land drop that only serves to insure some topdeck consistency just doesn't really make the cut.

[Madmankevinx]

Anyone run the burning wish model lately? I ran it at a local a couple months ago and it felt awesome. Even beat Bryant Cook on storm in one of my rounds. Washboard seemed great and having 7 copies of Loam maindeck is nice. Anyone else have any thoughts on this?

[Nemavera]

Hi guys,

here’s an extremely short report of GP Lille.
I had built a Doomsday (Laboratory Maniac) deck, with Mentor in the Sideboard, but after testing it on Thursday evening (after we arrived), I realized it was horrible. So Niklas convinced me to play Loam and luckily I was able to borrow nearly everything.
On Friday I played some trials, because I had no byes, which was very important in the end, because I kept forgetting Chalice triggers all the time (Alzheimer you know ;) ), and the deck is quite complex.
Short summary of the trials:
Trial 1: 3-1 (played against Niklas in Round 4 and lost to him)
Trial 2: 0-1
Trial 3: 0-1
Trial 4: 3-1 (lost against Omnishow 1-2, because I’m bad :D)
So no byes for me for the main event 

Main Event Day 1:
Round 1: Foodchain 2-0
Round 2: I honestly don’t remember what I played against 2-1, maybe RG lands
Round 3: Grixis Delver 2-1
Round 4: Stoneblade 1-1-1 In game 3 I’m quite far ahead with Chalice @ 1, Sylvan Library, Teeg and Confidant (9 life), but there isn’t much time left on the clock. I play a Knight and eot he swords it. I completely forgot about the Chalice trigger, gain 4 life and we are not able to finish the game in time. In hindsight the draw was very good, because I realized that I’ll be able to dodge Omnishow and Burn (well that didn’t work :D).
Round 5: Miracles 2-0
Round 6: Miracles (Mentor) 2-0
Round 7: Burn 2-0
Round 8: Storm 2-0
Round 9: 4c Delver 0-2
So that’s 7-1-1.
Day 2:
Round 10: Infect 2-0
Round 11: Stoneblade 2-1 (I lose G1 to T3 Nemesis and FoW on Confi, FoW on Lilli#1 and FoW Lilli#2
Round 12: Jund 2-1
Round 13: Miracles (Mentor, Clique, Venser and Cavern of Souls) 2-0
Round 14: Burn 2-1
Round 15: 4c Delver I.D.

Top8:
Quarterfinals: 4c Delver (the guy from round 15) 2-1 Niklas had played and lost against him and told me that he will keep FoW otd and otp he will have only Pierce and Daze, but no FoW.
Semifinals: You can watch the Match on twitch: http://www.twitch.tv/magic/v/6953315 beginning at 4:23:00. I played quite poorly there (should have grown my knight to 15/15 much earlier, then search for maze to force chump blocks every turn; blocking and bouncing Teeg was also very bad).



Also, I think I have a crush on Christoph, he is like, absurdly handsome.

Thanks :D :D

[arj]

Was is peoples thoughts on jund charm? Both in main and sideboard, seems like it is good against a lot of decks.

Also congrats on the great finishes in Lille :)

[Pilhas]

Congrats on the finish Christoph. It must have been a crazy week learning the ins and outs of the deck.

@Niklas
Did you play agains omni? how was the match?
Curious about it because it feels so hard.

Currently with the deck I feel it is very hard to win against omni and reanimate.I find Burn hard but manageable.

[rlesko]

Congrats on the finish Christoph. It must have been a crazy week learning the ins and outs of the deck.

@Niklas
Did you play agains omni? how was the match?
Curious about it because it feels so hard.

Currently with the deck I feel it is very hard to win against omni and reanimate.I find Burn hard but manageable.

My sense is reanimator shouldn't be that bad. You have Karakas and Maze of Ith main. omni seems quite bad.

[iamajellydonut]

Yeah, I have never actually had a problem with Reanimator. Lost games? Sure. But I've never had anything but a favorable experience with it. I'm pretty sure that it was listed by more than one person as "favorable" as well a few pages back when apocolyps6(?) started that mini-poll.

[Seraphix]

...

Thanks :D :D

Hahahahaha oh wow I didn't know you were on here.

Interesting (and probably fortuitous) that you didn't run into Omni at all in 15 rounds of Swiss.


Congrats on the finish Christoph. It must have been a crazy week learning the ins and outs of the deck.

@Niklas
Did you play agains omni? how was the match?
Curious about it because it feels so hard.

Currently with the deck I feel it is very hard to win against omni and reanimate.I find Burn hard but manageable.

Are you playing Leylines? They steal the Reanimator matchup.

[Pilhas]

Hahahahaha oh wow I didn't know you were on here.

Interesting (and probably fortuitous) that you didn't run into Omni at all in 15 rounds of Swiss.



Are you playing Leylines? They steal the Reanimator matchup.


I am playing the Leylines with ooze and shaman main deck but they usually bring the S&T post board and in the last 4 or so games they keep going for Griselbrand+Tyrant which bounces all the hate... I am considering swapping the 3rd Leyline for a containment priest. Never tried it so I think I am gonna give it a go.

[schniggaz]

Was is peoples thoughts on jund charm? Both in main and sideboard, seems like it is good against a lot of decks.

Also congrats on the great finishes in Lille :)


Versatile cards are awesome. But three mana is too much for Legacy. But a great card for Modern ;)




Congrats on the finish Christoph. It must have been a crazy week learning the ins and outs of the deck.

@Niklas
Did you play agains omni? how was the match?
Curious about it because it feels so hard.

Currently with the deck I feel it is very hard to win against omni and reanimate.I find Burn hard but manageable.


Reanimate is not that hard. You can steel some game ones with Chalice and/or your two pieces of gravehate. Thoughtseize and Leyline only improve the matchup. Show and Tell is only dangerous when they put a non-legendary creature. In my experience we are favored against them.

OmniTell is different. You will always lose game one. Game two and three are absolutely winable. But always starting 0-1 makes it unrealistic to win 2-1 most of the time. But only having one bad matchup against all the decks to beat is absolutely fine.
I did play against it in Lille and was able to win 2-1. Game two thanks to an early Slaughter Games and Game three I did start with a Thoughtseize, which got FOW, since he had the turn two kill. Turn two Show and Tell into Omniscience, but I had Thalia and Rec Sage in my hand.

[Zulabnar]

OmniTell is different. You will always lose game one. Game two and three are absolutely winable. But always starting 0-1 makes it unrealistic to win 2-1 most of the time. But only having one bad matchup against all the decks to beat is absolutely fine.
I did play against it in Lille and was able to win 2-1. Game two thanks to an early Slaughter Games and Game three I did start with a Thoughtseize, which got FOW, since he had the turn two kill. Turn two Show and Tell into Omniscience, but I had Thalia and Rec Sage in my hand.

This should be your sideboard:

2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Slaughter Games
1 Toxic Deluge
3 Leyline of the Void
2 Thoughtseize
1 Choke
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2 Golgari Charm
1 Reclamation Sage

I would like to know why you don't play Ethersworn canonist agaist omnitell it seems an hard card to move around.
Even because if you play sage, he can combo with reclamation sage ability on the stack

[Moroklumpen]

How important is Tabernacle? Are there any matchups that are hopeless without it? what's the next best thing if I can't get my hands on one?

[aluisiocsantos]

Importance = 0?

[Zulabnar]

How important is Tabernacle? Are there any matchups that are hopeless without it? what's the next best thing if I can't get my hands on one?

i really don't think this is a staple for this deck, maybe against elves?

[ironclad8690]

It is good against young pyromancer, tribal/aether vial decks, and weird corner cases like dredge after the zombies are made or storm after an empty the warrens. In paper magic, many people don't pass the "Tabernacle Test" when they aren't reminded about the trigger, so it is just another tool in your toolbelt.

[apocolyps6]

Small tournament report from a ~30 person weekly event I just played.

I am playing 3 bobs 1 choke rather then my typical SFM package.

Round 1 against MUD
G1. I am able to Decay 2 Monoliths, establish a waste lock and ~2 bobs before the opponent scoops.
I board in all the 3drops and jitte and Thallias and take out chalices, choke and pfires.
G2 We both mull to 5 and I assume his hand is shit because mud’s 5s are shit. I play a T1 Thalia off of mox and pass with bob, wasteland in hand. I figure it is hard to accelerate anything out with the Thalia in play. and I’ll wasteland the next turn. Opponent plays a metalworker an passes. I can't kill it and he gets out a sundering titan. I loam back my lands and pass. He plays a trading post and I chump with Thalia. This allows me to zenith up a rec sage the following turn. I get in while he takes a couple of turns to replay the titan. By then I have a knight out and am able to zenith for pridemage and get in for lethal.

1-0 (2-0)

Round 2 against Grixis Delver

G1 Opponent plays fetch trop delver go. I land a t2 chalice on 1. Opponent plays mountain. I waste some lands. I go down to 8ish life and delver walks into a Stirring wildwood. Opponent shame-scoops.
I board in the other choke and the clasms and I think a jitte for pridemage and some bobs.
G2 I get a mox dazed and an arbor bolted. I clasm away a drs and a delver. I then remove his manabase and kill him with a teeg.

2-0 (4-0)

Round 3 against Grixis Delver

G1 I keep something like Wildwood, arbor, mox, decay, loam, fetch waste. Pretty land heavy and probably a mulligan. The game is weird. I draw a mox and turbo out some mana + wildwood. All the opponent plays is a pyromancer which I quickly decay and begin getting in there with manlands while flooding hard. At 4 life he stabilizes with an angler and a drs. I play a library and eventually a chalice and bob. I find a decay for DRS and eventually a knight to close the game out.
In: 2x clasm, 1x jitte, 1x choke out: 2x bob, 1x pridemage, 1x something
G2 I T1 a library and then leave him permanentless while I scooze away his yard and get in for 2. I play a bob and opponent finds volc and bolt for scooze. I at this point I don’t remember what happened but I attacked for 5 and had a bunch of answers in my hand.

3-0 (6-0)

My opponent offered to split and I was kind of tired so I accepted.

3-0-1 (6-0)

[Pilhas]

...


Can you show us your list? it seems you have a lot of interesting ideias :)

[apocolyps6]

Thanks, this is my current list http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/06-07-15-4-color-loam/

[TLK]

Thanks, this is my current list http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/06-07-15-4-color-loam/

How are you liking the 1-of Depths/Stage package?

[apocolyps6]

How are you liking the 1-of Depths/Stage package?


It has been great. There are plenty of times when the opponent makes 6 tokens with young pyro or has a bunch of goyfs or whatever and instead of having to fight through all of that I can just use 2 knight activations and produce a win. Stage is also fine by itself for copying our other lands.

[Warden]

2 Grove is enough to power colors and Pfires?

[apocolyps6]

The deck played 2 grove for years. It is fine to play 2 but it probably wants to play 3. If you want to play a list with 3 that's great. If we are talking about my list with 2 the land slots are kind of tight. If anything had to go I think it would be plateau.

In terms of colors that is a matter of duals rather than groves so that isnt an issue.

[QBChaz]

Hi Niklas,

I've not played your deck yet but I have the cards so I will be taking it for a spin in my local Legacy events. I have been playing LeJay's Sylvan Plug list but I would like to switch it up a bit.

Can I ask when you are bringing in Thoughtseize? When I have been drawing up potential sideboarding plans I seem to be adding T'seize a little more than I think I should, especially given that I really want T1 Chalice on 1. Do you only bring them in in very specific situations? Do I want them against ANT like I do when I am playing Elves? Miracles on the play to nab a Top but not on the Draw? Generally against Combo i.e. Know and Tell, Elves? Those are all decks that I want Chalice for so it seems like a pretty major nonbo.

Should I instead be thinking about them as something good to bring in whenever I am taking Chalice out?

[Pilhas]

Hi Niklas,

I've not played your deck yet but I have the cards so I will be taking it for a spin in my local Legacy events. I have been playing LeJay's Sylvan Plug list but I would like to switch it up a bit.

Can I ask when you are bringing in Thoughtseize? When I have been drawing up potential sideboarding plans I seem to be adding T'seize a little more than I think I should, especially given that I really want T1 Chalice on 1. Do you only bring them in in very specific situations? Do I want them against ANT like I do when I am playing Elves? Miracles on the play to nab a Top but not on the Draw? Generally against Combo i.e. Know and Tell, Elves? Those are all decks that I want Chalice for so it seems like a pretty major nonbo.

Should I instead be thinking about them as something good to bring in whenever I am taking Chalice out?

Another one jumped to the bus :)

Usually I bring Thoughtseize against all matchups where chalice goes out(D&T, Goblins, Merfolk, MUD.....) and against combo(Omni, ANT, Reanimator....)
Depending on what you bring in/out, you can also board them in against miracles or stone blade, although I am not a massive fun on doing that, I most certainly did a few times.
The thing with chalice + thoughtseize is that when you stick a chalice in the game, the extra dead card should not impact the game in a very disadvantage way, since you are already locking the opponent.

My 2 cents anyway.

[iamajellydonut]

My 2 cents anyway.

Two cents well spent.

It's worth noting that Thoughtseize should only really be treated as a stopgap measure. It's not the end goal. You run it because X deck does something that you might not be fast enough or well equipped enough to deal with or because you actually have nothing else.


In other news, how does everyone feel about Night of Souls Betrayal? I've been giving it casual thought for a while now (elves, d&t, etc), but I'm thinking about it a lot more now that Grixis is an actual deck now. Young Pyromancer is no problem. True-Name Nemesis is no problem. But with both of them threatening on the same board, it can get a little bit dicey as the only real out you have in more common scenarios are a handful of sweepers that are vulnerable to counters and that you may or may not have already used. I think that's where Niklas was going with The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, but I don't own a Tabernacle, sooo although Night of Souls Betrayal is expensive in the other sense, 4cc isn't unrealistic and, once landed, it actually ends the game. No Delver. No True-Name Nemesis. No Young Pyromancer. No Snapcaster Mage. No Vendilion Clique. No Abrupt Decay if they splashed.

[Pilhas]

Two cents well spent.

It's worth noting that Thoughtseize should only really be treated as a stopgap measure. It's not the end goal. You run it because X deck does something that you might not be fast enough or well equipped enough to deal with or because you actually have nothing else.


In other news, how does everyone feel about Night of Souls Betrayal? I've been giving it casual thought for a while now (elves, d&t, etc), but I'm thinking about it a lot more now that Grixis is an actual deck now. Young Pyromancer is no problem. True-Name Nemesis is no problem. But with both of them threatening on the same board, it can get a little bit dicey as the only real out you have in more common scenarios are a handful of sweepers that are vulnerable to counters and that you may or may not have already used. I think that's where Niklas was going with The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, but I don't own a Tabernacle, sooo although Night of Souls Betrayal is expensive in the other sense, 4cc isn't unrealistic and, once landed, it actually ends the game. No Delver. No True-Name Nemesis. No Young Pyromancer. No Snapcaster Mage. No Vendilion Clique. No Abrupt Decay if they splashed.

I toyed with the card in the Cruise era, it was pretty good but I brlirv running a couple of charms+deluge might be better since it covers more basis(althoug it is not a permanent solution)

[Seraphix]

...


In other news, how does everyone feel about Night of Souls Betrayal? I've been giving it casual thought for a while now (elves, d&t, etc), but I'm thinking about it a lot more now that Grixis is an actual deck now. Young Pyromancer is no problem. True-Name Nemesis is no problem. But with both of them threatening on the same board, it can get a little bit dicey as the only real out you have in more common scenarios are a handful of sweepers that are vulnerable to counters and that you may or may not have already used. I think that's where Niklas was going with The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, but I don't own a Tabernacle, sooo although Night of Souls Betrayal is expensive in the other sense, 4cc isn't unrealistic and, once landed, it actually ends the game. No Delver. No True-Name Nemesis. No Young Pyromancer. No Snapcaster Mage. No Vendilion Clique. No Abrupt Decay if they splashed.

I like this. Engineered Plague getting Decay-ed is no fun. I might get my hands on one of these and try it in place of Deluge.

[Pilhas]

Going to a tournament tomorrow with this beauty:


1x Badlands
2x Barren Moor
2x Bayou
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Forest
3x Grove of the Burnwillows
1x Karakas
1x Maze of Ith
1x Savannah
1x Scrubland
1x Taiga
1x Tranquil Thicket
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Wasteland
2x Windswept Heath
4x Dark Confidant
1x Deathrite Shaman
1x Gaddock Teeg
4x Knight of the Reliquary
1x Scavenging Ooze
3x Abrupt Decay
3x Punishing Fire
2x Green Sun's Zenith
2x Life from the Loam
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Mox Diamond
2x Sylvan Library
3x Liliana of the Veil

SIDEBOARD:

1x Choke
2x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Golgari Charm
2x Leyline of the Void
1x Containment Priest
1x Maelstrom Pulse
2x Slaughter Games
1x Sulfur Elemental
1x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2x Thoughtseize



Wanted to test a 4Color no Red version but had not time to test it this week, so we are back with big beast.

A report on Sunday will follow :)

[iamajellydonut]

Going to a tournament tomorrow with this beauty:

1x Badlands

Badlands. Badlands.

(good luck)

[Micron]

Hi,

I Top-8d today in LCL July (54 players) with a very similar list to the last posted by Pilhas (congrats on your results with the deck btw). The only changes were the following:

Main
-1 Maze of Ith
-1 Savannah
+1 Scrubland
+1 The Tabernacle at Prendell Vale

Side
-1 Maelstrom Pulse
-1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
+1 Engineered Explosives
+1 Reclamation Sage

The deck punished me for not sleeving 1 Savannah and I still don't understand why I did this. There was a situation when I had Knight of the Reliquary in hand but couldn't cast it as my lands were 2 Scrublands and Wasteland, can't rememeber which round. The other change responded to my expectation for a larger field of Pyromancer decks given the results in the last LCL, but I turned out to be wrong as the meta shifted to a larger proportion of Team America decks. Anyway I was happy enough with Tabernacle even against TA. And I discovered Tabernacle+Choke is so sexy against that deck.

I am glad I decided to sleeve Reclamation Siege and Engineered Explosives, both helped a lot against Miracles and EE in table prevented an EOT rain of angels, something Maelstrom Pulse couldn't have accomplished.

My pairings were:
1. Reanimator 2-0.
2. Team America 2-0.
3. UWR Control 2-0.
4. Miracles 2-1.
5. Team America 1-2.
6. Team America ID
Top 8 Grixis Delver (Pyromancer and TNN) 0-2

The deck performed very well except for the Top8 game, where in G1 I failed to draw Reliquary and removal while a TNN and Clique beat me. In G2 I kept a lousy hand with no black mana and never got to cast Thoughtseize nor Liliana. I felt the field was underprepared against AggroLoam, only saw hate in round 5 with Leyline of the Void in both G2 and 3 and several players seemed unexperienced with the deck as well, specially at fetching way to greedy at occasions. Slaughter Games shined at removing Show and Tells from Reanimator and Entreat the Angels from Miracles, although sometimes is slow.




Usually I bring Thoughtseize against all matchups where chalice goes out(D&T, Goblins, Merfolk, MUD.....) and against combo(Omni, ANT, Reanimator....)
Depending on what you bring in/out, you can also board them in against miracles or stone blade, although I am not a massive fun on doing that, I most certainly did a few times.
The thing with chalice + thoughtseize is that when you stick a chalice in the game, the extra dead card should not impact the game in a very disadvantage way, since you are already locking the opponent.

I sided both against Miracles and was happy overall. I had 6 cards to deal with Counterbalance and could manage to resolve them. In G3 actually demolished him as I Thoughsteized in T3, he spent his last mana to activate Top, sent away Council's Judgment and resolved Chalice @1 with Swords, Ponder and Land in hand. In other rounds, I got them stucked in hand thanks to Chalice and ended up being Liliana's food.

[Seraphix]

...

In other rounds, I got them stucked in hand thanks to Chalice and ended up being Liliana's food.

Nothing ever goes to waste in a BGx deck.

[Pilhas]

The report everyone has been waiting for(NOT).

Event was in ferrol, Spain with 108 players. We went there the day before since the trip was ~3.5 hours.
Small report of the trip:
Left Portugal at 8pm after work, 2cars with 9 people total.
Stop in Valença, Portugal to eat a beautiful (baby?)goat(not sure of the translation.
Went on til 20 km of Ferrol(1-2 am) when my friends car broke down! Call the insurance to tow the car and they follow by taxi. Get to the hotel at 4am.
Things start well early as you see.
Wake up at 8am and go to the tournament.
From my list in last post I droped a Canonist for a Sage

R1: Affinity

Game 1 he vomits his hand on the table, I promptly kill everything with PFire and set down a couple of Confidants + a Chalice@0
after I take control of the game I see he is playing Modern Affinity so everything costs 1 :/ He ended with 2 Etched champions on the table but Maze of Ith and a Liliana are no match for them. Attack with a couple of Knights and GG.
Cant remember what happens game 2, but was an easy match overall.
M(1-0)G(2-0)


R2: Saito's Grixis Delver

I was curious about the matchup, since I never tested it, but as it turns out it is just another delver variant.
Game 1 I drop an early chalice and never let his pyromancers take over, the only dame I took this game was from 2 fetches and Library.
Game 2 I manage to lock him the entire game until he drops a Nemesis which I kill with a liliana that I kept in hand almost all game.
My sb was -1 arbor -1 Teeg -2 GSZ
+2 Charms +1 thalia +1 pulse.
I am really not sure about this side, I kept 3 lilis in which doesn't seem right.
M(2-0)G(4-0)


R3: Omnitell

I know what he is in, he is (probably) the best player in the club I am used to go in Spain.
Game 1 I drop a T1 chalice and a bit after I play a GSZ@2 he tanks for a while and then says yes. I fetch Teeg and he makes a nervous face, it seems like he forgot about him. After a while I kill him with a couple of bears.
Game 2 I keep a Mox, Chalice, TS, 3 Land + something. TS+Chalice @ T2(not sure if it is the right play). I play a nearly perfect game with a bear(thalia or confidant) on board and with a Charm+Sage on hand. And then I draw the canonist, LET THE DUMB MOVES BEGIN, I look at my 3 hate pieces on hand, my clock on the table(bear+arbor) and proceed to try to cast Canonist. of course he counters it, and after killing my bear, proceeds to s&t the omni I go sage, he goes for Cunning->Trickbind(Fow my charm) and win from there.
Game 3 kept a chalice+ mox+ games+ something hand. Drop the cahlice and missed my t3 land but draw a GSZ. I GSZ for 0 and get it countered by my own chalice -.-. After a bit I draw a land and games the S&T away. he only got the Cunning + Breach plan left with 2 wish on Grave. He finnaly clears my board and with me at 3 life we go to turns. I drop a mox and thoughtseize him goin to 1(Giving him the out of Sudden Shock also) to see a hand of 3 Digs, 2 FoWs and a Wish. I take the Wish(going around the bolt that he does not have) and in t3 of turns he found the Breach + emrakul and kills me.
Had the game, missplayed in G2, proceed to kick my self and go on.
My sb was -3 decay -3 PFire -2 Lib -1 Maze -2 Loam
Bring everything except for the Leylines, Priest and Sulfur elemental.(In hindsight maybe priest is also a possibility)
M(2-1)G(5-2)

R4: Burn

My oponent is not he best and seems quite nervous.
Game 1 I drop an early Knight + several wastelands and kill him from there.
Game 2 I do the same.
My sb was -1 Teeg -2 Loam -2 Confidant.
+2 Charms +1 thalia +1 pulse +1 canonist.
I am really not sure about this side, I kept 3 lilis in which doesn't seem right.
M(3-1)G(7-2)



R5: WG Cloupost

Game 1 I drop a t1 chalice, he drops a winswept heath, I drop a Knight and he concedes.
Game 2 I miss sideboard(putted him on maverick) and proceed to try to race a late game against cluodpost. Did not end well agains a Ulamog + Emrakul.
Game 3 He goes for a T1 Needle on wasteland + T2 RiP. I bring him to 2 until he finds a Titan, which brings him to 10 and the 18.
Can't remember my sideboard, but I know I did not bring the charms nor the Sage and cut a decay. Dumb me can be real dumb.
M(3-2)G(8-4) Out of top8 :(


R6: Omnitell(Budget?)

Game 1 He mulls to 5 and combos at t4. and did not find more than 1 cant trip in the following 3 turns.
Game 2 I Games him t3/4 and he board out his 2nd plan(Dream halls)
SB(see g3)
M(4-2)G(10-4)


R7: Deathblade(No green but with Shamans)

Game 1 We trade a couple of resources and he kills me with a nemesis.
Game 2 Wastelands are fun.
Game 3 Wastelands are really fun.
SB +2 TS +1 Sage +1 Pulse +1 Choke +2 Charms.
-1 Ooze -1 Knight -something

M(5-2)G(10-5)

Lost to myself, Gotta learn some day.
The Portuguese bubble boys strike again with 1 in 9th and 1 in 17th(me).

Proceed to arrive at portugal at midnight, wake up at 10am to go get the other guys(car is dead) at Vigo, Spain.
Get home write report and smoke + beer the rest of the day(I hope).

Feel free to kick myself for the miss sideboards that are probably around.
Comments are always welcome.

~Pilhas

[hofzge]

Is Golgari Charm really that much better than Zealous Persecution?

I am not so sure the destroy enchantment is so important...

[QBChaz]

It is being able to destroy an enchantment on an effect that is also very useful. Versatility is very powerful.

[Pilhas]

Is Golgari Charm really that much better than Zealous Persecution?

I am not so sure the destroy enchantment is so important...

All 3 modes are useful.

-1/-1 + regenerate against storm
-1/-1 and destroy ench against omni/blade
against d&t you can use all modes
etc...

[iamajellydonut]

Is Golgari Charm really that much better than Zealous Persecution?

I am not so sure the destroy enchantment is so important...

It's not so much that being able to destroy enchantments is "important", though it certainly helps. It's just that the other half of Zealous Persecution does absolutely nothing for the deck while the other two thirds of Golgari Charm do stuff. There's no great horde of weenies that need to come bloodrushing through or need to be protected from opposing sweepers. There's Knight of the Reliquary. And she don't give a fuck. One could point out that it doesn't neg our own creatures, but, again, Knight of the Reliquary don't give a fuck. The only creature that might actually care is Dark Confidant, but he already lives to die. It's generally profitable to ride out the Confidant until they manage to kill him, and then smack them upside the head with a Golgari Charm. Alternatively, if Dark Confidant just won't die in a timely enough fashion to avoid you having to get it mixed up with a Golgari Charm, you've probably already gotten several draws and several swings off of him and can usually justify the loss of value.

That being said, as stated before, being able to kill enchantments is extraordinarily helpful, and being able to regen creatures is always neat. Make no mistake, it is treated as a sweeper first and foremost. Nobody runs Golgari Charm thinking "now my Serene Offering can hit creatures!". But being able to peg Rest in Peace is awesome, and having two more cards to shore up an otherwise miserable match-up against OmniShow is also definitely handy.

[Nastaboi]

BG is also a bit easier on mana than BW, if everything above wasn't enough to convince you.

[hofzge]

It isn't really enough but not because of Persecution, but because o don't see the use of Golgari Charm. I would much rather play Toxic Deluges instead and I see that they are again less versatile, but help you more at times against all kinds of random decks like Merfolk or any Tarmogoyf deck.

[iamajellydonut]

It isn't really enough but not because of Persecution, but because o don't see the use of Golgari Charm. I would much rather play Toxic Deluges instead and I see that they are again less versatile, but help you more at times against all kinds of random decks like Merfolk or any Tarmogoyf deck.

For reference, I run 2*Golgari Charm and 1*Toxic Deluge.

As good as Toxic Deluge is and as much as it's one of my favorite cards to come out in recent years, they both just have very different effects. Toxic Deluge is one of my most frequently brought in cards against fair decks. Especially since none of your creatures last very long unless it's an oversized Knight of the Reliquary, Toxic Deluge is just 3cc to value town. However, a 2cc instant has a lot more going for it against the relevant decks in the format. Against the decks your sideboard slots are aimed at. When looking at cost to effect, a 3cc sorcery just doesn't beat out the tight package of Golgari Charm. Golgari Charm will always resolve more frequently, and that is a massive consideration, and what makes it better than Toxic Deluge against Death and Taxes and against Elves and against Grixis.

[Warden]

For reference, I run 2*Golgari Charm and 1*Toxic Deluge.

As good as Toxic Deluge is and as much as it's one of my favorite cards to come out in recent years, they both just have very different effects. Toxic Deluge is one of my most frequently brought in cards against fair decks. Especially since none of your creatures last very long unless it's an oversized Knight of the Reliquary, Toxic Deluge is just 3cc to value town. However, a 2cc instant has a lot more going for it against the relevant decks in the format. Against the decks your sideboard slots are aimed at. When looking at cost to effect, a 3cc sorcery just doesn't beat out the tight package of Golgari Charm. Golgari Charm will always resolve more frequently, and that is a massive consideration, and what makes it better than Toxic Deluge against Death and Taxes and against Elves and against Grixis.

I understand what you're saying about versatility but if you feel you need Toxic D, pack 2 in the board. Cut something else out. If you need to wipe the table, Toxic is probably the best thing outside of Terminus. My question would be whether it's worth it to run 2 KGrip, 2 Toxic instead of splitting 3 slots between golgari and toxic. Golgari @ 2cc is a quality card the format neglects exists. But I can't help looking at K-grip's split second as a huge boon (especially with Miracles and Omni-Show are top decks).

[iamajellydonut]

Apples to oranges in all cases. Toxic Deluge is a great reset button and value card. You draw it, look at the board, and BAM. Back to square one. But it doesn't beat out an established D&T board. It doesn't skirt around a Dig Through Time for the touchdown on Pyromancer and True-Name. And that's what I need and want out of the Golgari Charm slot. Hell if I care about dumb beaters like Delver or Tarmogoyf.

Golgari Charm does what I need it to do at a very reasonable rate of resolution, and that's what lets it occupy those sideboard slots. That it's versatile is only an added bonus that sets it above the other options. If I couldn't run Golgari Charm, I would probably give Zealous Persecution some serious consideration. And if I couldn't run Zealous Persecution, I'd then look towards Marsh Casualties. But Toxic Deluge doesn't fit into that discussion. It's a good card in its own right, but it's no more similar to those than Maelstrom Pulse is to Abrupt Decay.


Krosan Grip is sweet sideboard tech, and I had an extensive discussion with myself about it earlier in the thread, but it's expensive and it doesn't do enough. Given that the deck doesn't really need help against Miracles, OmniShow is its only real use, but keeping three mana open at all times isn't really feasible. I've run Krosan Grip before, and it was one of the most quickly cut cards I've ever tried. As specific hate against OmniShow, there are better options, and as general hate against artifacts and enchantments it falls short of contemporaries like Wear//Tear and Reclamation Sage.

[testing32]

Since we are talking about the board, lets discuss thoughtseize.

Thoughtseize doesn't synergize well with chalice. Combo has started to slow down to combat all of the blue: Belcher is gone, Storm has started to cut Ad Nauseum, and Omni-Tell the premier combo deck. So, if you probably aren't going to die turn 1 or 2, should we be playing a higher impact card that does a better job of fighting Omni?

Would 2/2 split of thalia/cantonist be more effective?

[Pilhas]

Since we are talking about the board, lets discuss thoughtseize.

Thoughtseize doesn't synergize well with chalice. Combo has started to slow down to combat all of the blue: Belcher is gone, Storm has started to cut Ad Nauseum, and Omni-Tell the premier combo deck. So, if you probably aren't going to die turn 1 or 2, should we be playing a higher impact card that does a better job of fighting Omni?

Would 2/2 split of thalia/cantonist be more effective?

I've been liking Thoughtseize a lot, that said, I can definitely get your point. Can't say for certain but I will try to up the count of the hatebears.
I am currently running 1 thalia/canonist/sage/sulfur and I am missing the second canonist, I think I will test with 2 thalias+2 canonist+1sage+1sulfur for awhile

[apocolyps6]

I played 2 Thalia 1 Canonist this week. It ended up mattering. I think I might actually prefer the 2nd canonist to Slaughter games. It comes down faster, is easier on the mana, works fine with teeg... biggest downside is that it does not actually win the game, and that it is counterable.

Here is the whole thing.

Round 1 - RUG Delver

G2: I keep a loose hand with something like 2x Bob, Decay, Library, Waste, Grove, Savannah. He plays a mongoose and counters the important spells. I remain mana/color screwed for a while and then struggle to force my fetch through stifle so I can begin playing my place cards. I succeed and then fail to resolve bobs. No way I played this correctly.

I have not had to play real magic against this deck for a while. The games usually go “chalice, decay, knight, win” or some similar sequence of jamming cards that win and removal. I board in a Choke, a Deluge, and a Jitte.

G2: I play a T1 chalice on 1. Then GSZ for a DRS and then Jitte. He has the grudge and wasteland and then mongoose again. I am stuck on 2 mana for the rest of the game.

0-1 (0-2)

Round 2 - Elves

G1: I play T2 bob against his T1 nettle sentinel. He plays ranger and visionary. I decay ranger and cradle. I flip a knight off of bob and go to 13. Bob trades for sentinel and knight + stage give him a 1 turn window to have it, and he does.

clasms and deluges go in. So does jitte and canonist. bobs, pridemage, scooze, and choke come out.

G2: I have a T1 pfire + grove and eventually draw into chalice + teeg. The game isn’t close.

G3: I keep Grove, clasm, 2x pfire, chalice, and maybe decay. I draw wildwood on T2. By the end of T3 clasm and the drawn wasteland reduce this board to a single bayou. He has 1-2 cards left in hand. From there I chalice him and clean up with wildwood.

1-1 (2-3)

Round 3 - Omni

G1: I keep a meh hand with a zenith and a choke. choke gets spell pierced, zenith for teeg resolves. So does his S&S and subsequent emrakul.

Out: loams, decays, dismember. In: Thalias, rec sage, choke, canonist, slaughter games

G2: I mull to 6. I have something like mox, taiga, grove, cycle, GSZ, choke. T2 choke resolves and a knight finishes him before he can find it. My memory of this match is fuzzy, but I vividly remember discarding the taiga after concluding that grove was useless in the matchup >.<.

G3: (Out: pfire? In: Vindicate) T2 chalice is forced. I land a teeg. Then a library and a thalia. My dudes eat a pyroclasm. I pay a billion life with library and find canonist + scooze. Those two put him to 0.

2-1 (4-4)

Round 4 - Pox

G1 : I start with mox discarding wasteland, fetch a forest, loam my lands back. That sets the tone for the game. I get him down to 3 before he edicts away my KotR. I was going to play a fetch to play around that, but ended up playing poorly instead. I took a bit of time but then got a creature and then forced it though for the final damage.

In: 2x Thalia, Vindicate, Revoker Out: Choke, Dismember, 2x Chalice

G2: This one was much grinder. I kept some speculative hand with thalia and vindicate. We had a mana fight and when the dust settled he had a lili and I had 3 lands, a dryad arbor and a Dark depths at 9. He wasted my arbor and goes to ultimate lili. I natural defrost my marit lage and kill him.

3-1 (6-4)

Overall I played like shit and managed to lose to what used to be the deck's best matchup.

[maCHOOga]

Hi all, I'm starting to take this archetype for a spin. I love all the cards in it, so I had to try it. (Despite being called a traitor by now 4 people for switching archetypes). Is the miracles matchup bad, or is it just my incompetency with the deck? It feels like you have to chipshot damage at them and then slowly punishing fire them to death. I know chalice x = 1 + gaddock tegg is very good, but it's not fool proof. It seems like this match can easily end in a draw with both players playing at a reasonable pace or it pushes to game 3.

What's the best sideboard haymaker against them? Thrun? Huntmaster? Broodmate Dragon? Sigarda? Titania?

Also, has anyone tried magic origins nissa in this archetype yet? It seems very powerful in the long game and you can green sun for her. She does search for any forest!
:-)

[apocolyps6]

If you want extra cards against Miracles you are better off with the 2nd choke rather than any Nic-Fit creature.

The miracles matchup is usually even or slightly in our favor preboard, and solidly in our favor postboard. This may be less true for mentor miracles as they usually have to play tempo against us with T3-5 win cons and that version should be better at it.

If you look at the deck, the worst cards against miracles are something like DRS, the 3rd pfire, the 3-4th mox. Basically your whole deck is good. Lock them down early, screw with their mana, get in for damage. If that does not work, use Library, Loam, or Pfire to beat them with raw card advantage. The matchup definitely takes some practice but you should not be losing to miracles pilots of roughly your skill level.

The deck plays 1 basic forest and does not often keep a 2/2 on board while having 7 lands. The walker side is fine and I'm all for interesting brewy things, but I'm skeptical the card is good enough.

[litenkatt]

Participated in a small tournament today, around 20 people. Made it to top4

r1 reanimator 2-1
r2 cloudpost 2-0
r3 lands 0-2 (I played horrible, forgot a tabernacle trigger on my knight and lost g1 because of that. g2 I should have casted chalice on 1 when I had the chance but didn't for some reason)
r4 mud 2-0
r5 draw into top8

top8
r1 d&t 2-0
r2 elves 0-2

[Seraphix]

...

r2 elves 0-2


Story of my life.

How do people board against Lands? I think G. Teeg and Liliana are pretty safe cuts (I don't think the "force you to make Marit Lage during combat on my turn, edict you" scenario comes up a lot) for Leylines but after that I'm less sure. I've been cutting Fires and some number of Decays for random stuff like Rec Sage, Golgari Charm, and Thoughtseize to fight over Exploration/Manabond. I don't have enough experience with the matchup to determine how correct this is though.

[testing32]

17th at SCG Richmond with the stock list and 4 hatebears over thoughtseize. Weird tournament:

Dredge L 1-2
Burn L 0-2
Loam Pox W 2-1
ANT W 2-1
ZombieBardment W 2-0
Dredge W 2-1
Reanimator Depths ID into 17th

Didn't play any of the decks I was preparing for by choosing this deck (Miracles, Delver, Blade). Lots of blowouts and not much real magic.

[Nocley]

Going back to last page's Charm vs Deluge debate, after playing a bunch of fair decks I think I agree that Deluge is a bit important.

What really pushed me over the edge is that I wanted a better way of resetting the board against RUG / BUG after I land the Chalice on 1 - I give them an opening for a Goyf or two to come down and that's when I have trouble coming back - I need 2 decays really to take care of them at that point. Though I'm also currently at 1 Thoughtseize, 2 Thalia and 2 Canonist as Omni hate, which may be a bit heavy, and I could probably trim a canonist to support 1 Deluge and 2 Charm. I also have 2 Slaughter Games as well, so I do think that Canonist may be a bit too heavy. I may even trim the TS, as a singleton I'm not seeing it as much as I really want to.

As an aside, what do we prefer to take out against RUG? For last night, I was bringing in 2 Charm (No Deluge, yet) and 2 Choke - I'm not too sold on the Choke, as 3 mana is basically 10 mana in that matchup, but should Leylines come in? I know they don't really neuter goyf, but they do make the geese quite manageable. What about Thalia? I've currently only been bringing in Thalia against the combo matchups, as I don't like the anti-synergy with PFire which is critical against the delver decks. What I was bringing out though was 2 GSZ, Teeg, and a Loam on the play, Lili on the Draw (As I felt as good as it was, it was sitting in hand dead too much). I won both of the matches, but they went to 3 each and the ones I lost were because my opponent got 2 Goyfs out during a Chalice on 1 and countered my knights.

[Pilhas]

Going back to last page's Charm vs Deluge debate, after playing a bunch of fair decks I think I agree that Deluge is a bit important.

What really pushed me over the edge is that I wanted a better way of resetting the board against RUG / BUG after I land the Chalice on 1 - I give them an opening for a Goyf or two to come down and that's when I have trouble coming back - I need 2 decays really to take care of them at that point. Though I'm also currently at 1 Thoughtseize, 2 Thalia and 2 Canonist as Omni hate, which may be a bit heavy, and I could probably trim a canonist to support 1 Deluge and 2 Charm. I also have 2 Slaughter Games as well, so I do think that Canonist may be a bit too heavy. I may even trim the TS, as a singleton I'm not seeing it as much as I really want to.

As an aside, what do we prefer to take out against RUG? For last night, I was bringing in 2 Charm (No Deluge, yet) and 2 Choke - I'm not too sold on the Choke, as 3 mana is basically 10 mana in that matchup, but should Leylines come in? I know they don't really neuter goyf, but they do make the geese quite manageable. What about Thalia? I've currently only been bringing in Thalia against the combo matchups, as I don't like the anti-synergy with PFire which is critical against the delver decks. What I was bringing out though was 2 GSZ, Teeg, and a Loam on the play, Lili on the Draw (As I felt as good as it was, it was sitting in hand dead too much). I won both of the matches, but they went to 3 each and the ones I lost were because my opponent got 2 Goyfs out during a Chalice on 1 and countered my knights.

With this SB configuration

2 Canonists
2 Thalia
1 Containment Priest
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Choke
2 Slaughter Games
2 Leyline of the Void
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Golgari Charm

Against RUG Delver I bring 2 Thalias and 1 Choke for 2 GSZ and a Teeg. I sometimes cut the Dryad Arbor for a Charm/Pulse.
If I played with Deluge I would bring it but I don't feel I need it all that often. I am really liking the Thalia's in the matchup since it screws their tempo and I bring the Choke for the random freewin. I believe the matchup is good, Just play around what you can and don't be afraid of eating a daze/stifle if you can't play around them.
I see a lot of people just playing around everything and just giving out to their tempo.

[maCHOOga]

Story of my life.

How do people board against Lands? I think G. Teeg and Liliana are pretty safe cuts (I don't think the "force you to make Marit Lage during combat on my turn, edict you" scenario comes up a lot) for Leylines but after that I'm less sure. I've been cutting Fires and some number of Decays for random stuff like Rec Sage, Golgari Charm, and Thoughtseize to fight over Exploration/Manabond. I don't have enough experience with the matchup to determine how correct this is though.

Sometimes, they are just going to have it...there's nothing you can do about it. I think you need to structure your game plan to make them have it. Set chalice to X = 1 first and then X = 2. X = 1 shuts off their fast combos, X = 2 shuts off the slow combo (loam & punishing fire.) The only issue is X = 2 hurts you as well. :-/

I would also bring in slaughter games. Targets are Loam or Krosan Grip depending on board state. Also, I don't think they like to see tarmogoyf or thrun.

[iamajellydonut]

What's been said is pretty on point for battling Lands. Only thing I would disagree with is Chalice on 2. I'd much rather have a backup Chalice than a Chalice on 2.

[Seraphix]

...

As an aside, what do we prefer to take out against RUG?

...


I don't believe getting fancy with Choke and Leyline is correct against RUG, which is already a very good matchup. I just cut G. Teeg and bring in Deluge. I don't think you want to cut Loams or Lilianas against RUG, I would cut Libraries before either if I had more cuts to make.


Sometimes, they are just going to have it...there's nothing you can do about it. I think you need to structure your game plan to make them have it. Set chalice to X = 1 first and then X = 2. X = 1 shuts off their fast combos, X = 2 shuts off the slow combo (loam & punishing fire.) The only issue is X = 2 hurts you as well. :-/

I would also bring in slaughter games. Targets are Loam or Krosan Grip depending on board state. Also, I don't think they like to see tarmogoyf or thrun.

I've thought about Slaughter Games (mainly for Loam) but didn't think it was appropriate since they can still go off through Crop Rotation without Loam. It might actually be worth it though, because I think the matchup is really all about Loam. Chalice on 1 is still a thing to hedge against Crop Rotation.

[apocolyps6]

How do you guys feel about me posting these weeklyish tournament reports? Should I be more brief?

Anyway, here is another. Trying a Spirit of the labyrinth over a vindicate. Vindicate is eh.

Round 1: Bomberman
G1: My opponent plays islands into Trinket Mage into winning the game.
I bring in all the creatures and take out the fires. (yes, all. I know >.<)
G2: I play a T1 chalice, T2 Thalia, Then a chalice on 0 and a Teeg for his EE. He plays a mentor and 2 Magi of the moon I take a billion turns to grind through that with scooze and 1 mox for green mana.
G3: He gives me 1 turn to stop him from going off and my T3 Choke wins me the game.

Round 2: RG Lands
G1: I play a chalice. Then navigate a knight onto the board, get wastelanded, play a second knight and take my opponent to 0.
In: Rec sage, 2x thalia, out: teeg, choke, dismember
G2:I T1 a chalice, then feed a bob and a DRS to his punishing fire lock in order to play scooze and eat his loam + bob. This leaves him just 1 mana short of double pfiring it(hence the ‘feeding'). I run away with the game with scooze + loam.

Round 3: Omni
G1: T1 chalice. Opponent does nothing and I beat him down to 0.
in: all the white chicks and choke out: decays, loam, disfigure
G2: T1 chalice. I make a scooze and get in with wildwood while opponent dumps 1drops do fuel a DTT. at 7 life (with 6 dmg on board) he goes for S&T but I drop a canonist and he scoops.

Round 4: Tempo miracles
G1: He forces a T1 mox... The 2 bobs and decay in my hand are now uncastable. awks. He plays a T3 mentor and I can’t beat it.
In: 2 revoker, choke, 2 clasm, 1 deluge Out: 2 mox, dismember, scooze, 2x pfire(?)
G2: He plays a T3 blood moon and I have 3 mountains in play. He then slowly finishes me off with mentor. I kind of fight through it and then he rip+helms me.

No way I boarded correctly in round 4. In my defense in G2 I wanted to play around moon, but I had 1 fetch and if I didn’t get bayou I could not play my 2x bob. That whole 4th round felt like a sucker punch :/

[Einherjer]

Hey guys,

I sat down with Niklas Kronberger and Christoph Alsheimer to tackle the new kid on the block, Punishing Blue (http://www.mtgmintcard.com/articles/writers/philipp-sch%C3%B6negger/the-rise-of-punishing-blue)!

Let me know what you think, I'd also appreciate it if you left the comment at the article itself so other readers can potentially benefit from your comments/questions and my responses.

Thanks! :)

Greetings

[Pilhas]

Nice article, I would say that the most important thing to take of the article is the deck name! I cringe every time the deck is called Aggro Loam. the deck is a lock/control at heart playing aggro only a couple of time through out a big tournament.

[Alex_UNLIMITED]

There is a sideboarding guide for the deck? I like the version of Grand Prix Lille.

[litenkatt]

Thanks for the article. Good job!

[Rationalist]

Hey guys,

I sat down with Niklas Kronberger and Christoph Alsheimer to tackle the new kid on the block, Punishing Blue (http://www.mtgmintcard.com/articles/writers/philipp-sch%C3%B6negger/the-rise-of-punishing-blue)!

Let me know what you think

What I think:

The article is very good and this deck really should be catching on more than it is, but PLEASE do not call this deck "Punishing Blue". That just seems like a, frankly, horrible idea. The cuteness of the joke is absolutely not worth the baggage.

The name "Lock'n'Lands" comes up in the article itself. I would strongly recommend using that name (or any other name, really) instead, unless you want this issue to come up ad infinitum.

[Moroklumpen]

I agree that Punishing Blue is a cool name, but a poor choice. Mostly because it sounds like "A blue deck with Punishing Fire", which I imagine isn't quite what you're going for. How about we keep it simple? I suggest we simply call it

"Punisher".

It references both the presence of Punishing Fire and the targeted metagame nature of the deck without implying anything inaccurate.

[apocolyps6]

Hey guys, how about we name the deck after a Bulldozer or Dump Truck. Both are vehicles with powerful engines often used to move chunks of land around (among other things). :p

[Pilhas]

Just call it 4c good stuff/4c lock/4c no blue or something like that.... no need to complicate

[Moroklumpen]

Those aren't names, they're descriptions, and not even very accurate ones. The deck isn't really a goodstuff deck; it's very much built around synergy. It's also not a prison deck, although with Chalice, Liliana and two recurring control elements it does come close.

I really like Dump Truck; it sound cool. Bulldozer kinda implies something with Helldozer or Taurean Mailer, and also it doesn't sound as good in my opinion.

If my prison deck classification is voted down, I suggest calling it "Landlock" which is simple and fairly descriptive.

But for now I stand by Punisher.

[iamajellydonut]

I really like Dump Truck

Damn. I could get behind this.

[(nameless one)]

Dump Truck.dec (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?6813-Deck-Dump-Truck) has existed in Extended before and it runs blue. I don't think you can call this Dump Truck.

[apocolyps6]

I think the chances of this deck being confused for some extended deck are pretty low.

We could also add an adjective on the front. Not the biggest fan of 'Punishing Dump Truck' but it is an option.

[Whitefaces]

Seriously? Punishing Blue is such a horrible name, and isn't descriptive of the deck at all. As some have pointed out it just sounds like a blue control deck with Punishing Fire. Lock’n’Lands is pretty cruddy too, it sounds forced…all of this whole thing sounds forced and feels like Phillip and Niklas care more about making a name for themselves than the actual article itself. It’s still Aggro Loam, and bears enough similarities to deck design philosophy of the early builds to keep the name.

[iamajellydonut]

Dump Truck.dec (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?6813-Deck-Dump-Truck) has existed

Dammit.

I do agree that "Punishing Blue" is a terrible name though. I'll probably either stick with writing down "Kronberger Special" on my decklists or try to hype up "Hoogland's Folly".

[Pilhas]

Seriously? Punishing Blue is such a horrible name, and isn't descriptive of the deck at all. As some have pointed out it just sounds like a blue control deck with Punishing Fire. Lock’n’Lands is pretty cruddy too, it sounds forced…all of this whole thing sounds forced and feels like Phillip and Niklas care more about making a name for themselves than the actual article itself. It’s still Aggro Loam, and bears enough similarities to deck design philosophy of the early builds to keep the name.

If you believe it bears enough similarities, you clearly do not play with the deck. Or you just have no clue on what you are doing....
The deck doesn't want to aggro out and clearly does not need loam to operate.

I agree all names seem forced and what not but I also believe the deck should not be aggro loam.


Dammit.

I do agree that "Punishing Blue" is a terrible name though. I'll probably either stick with writing down "Kronberger Special" on my decklists or try to hype up "Hoogland's Folly".

"Kronberger Special" + "Hoogland's Folly" = Special Folly!!! Whorray

[Whitefaces]

If you believe it bears enough similarities, you clearly do not play with the deck. Or you just have no clue on what you are doing....
The deck doesn't want to aggro out and clearly does not need loam to operate.

I agree all names seem forced and what not but I also believe the deck should not be aggro loam.



"Kronberger Special" + "Hoogland's Folly" = Special Folly!!! Whorray

Gosh darn it, you got me. I've clearly demonstrated that I've never played the deck and have no idea what I'm doing. Good job officer, keep at it.

Please correct me if I'm wrong (not being sarcastic, I would like to know), but didn't the deck originate from Extended? Green beaters + Crusher with Loam and Seismic Assault. I will admit, that's a very different deck to this one. That's slowly morphed into what we have today, and while different, has kept its name throughout. If taken literally, sure...you may have a point. But should we take every ridiculous name in Legacy seriously? Of course not, we'd be running around headless. My main point is that this shell has been known as Aggro Loam for long enough, a name change isn't needed.

I dunno...I've played non-blue decks for a while quite fervently, aggro loam included, and I just feel like this is an already established archetype that has simply been underappreciated since Khans. Now with a 'breakout' tournament, people are more concerned with stamping their name on it, rather than taking it forward. Why didn't Niklas ever bring up the name before? He's always come across as a pretty genuine guy in interviews etc, so I have this feeling it's more the work of Phillip.

I will say, I'm 110% behind Hoogland's Folly!

[iamajellydonut]

Please correct me if I'm wrong (not being sarcastic, I would like to know), but didn't the deck originate from Extended? Green beaters + Crusher with Loam and Seismic Assault. I will admit, that's a very different deck to this one. That's slowly morphed into what we have today, and while different, has kept its name throughout. If taken literally, sure...you may have a point. But should we take every ridiculous name in Legacy seriously? Of course not, we'd be running around headless. My main point is that this shell has been known as Aggro Loam for long enough that's a name change isn't needed.

As much as I would like to see the Kronberger Special with a fun name, the above statement is the reason I'm still willing to accept being called "Aggro Loam" or "4c Loam".

[schniggaz]

People should stop wasting their time thinking about a name for the deck. It is nearly impossible that everyone will agree on a name. Just copy Philips article, replace every "Punishing Blue" with whatever you like to call it, and read it again. A name does not win you tournaments. Better start practising "Aggro Loam" ;)

[maCHOOga]

Wait until starcity has someone top 8 an event with it. I think we're going to see" 4-Color Loam Control"...if we are lucky! :-)

[rabidw0lf]

Ages ago before crusher existed. We rode a terravore after devastating dreams, and a chalice on 1. It was aggro loam then and creature count is about the same as now.
No need for a new name

[Moroklumpen]

Has anyone tried Trinisphere in the sideboard to combat Omnitell? As opposed to hate cards that use the stack, it shuts down any and all Omniscience shenanigans they might have unless they already have them in hand with at least three mana available. No Wish for instant kill in response to Sage triggers; no free bounce, no free Emrakul through Thalia (one particularly bitter memory from my Maverick days). I'm not sure how many we would need or what it would replace though; on the whole, a sideboarding guide for the most popular matchups would be greatly appreciated.

[iamajellydonut]

Has anyone tried Trinisphere in the sideboard to combat Omnitell? As opposed to hate cards that use the stack, it shuts down any and all Omniscience shenanigans they might have unless they already have them in hand with at least three mana available. No Wish for instant kill in response to Sage triggers; no free bounce, no free Emrakul through Thalia (one particularly bitter memory from my Maverick days). I'm not sure how many we would need or what it would replace though; on the whole, a sideboarding guide for the most popular matchups would be greatly appreciated.

Trinisphere works, but if you're just looking for things to toss in off Show and Tell, Iona does the trick as well. Ethersworn Canonist, I imagine, would just work out to be the better card in almost every circumstance. It's cheaper (for matchups where you're not sandbagging it till they cast Show and Tell), it has legs, and it doesn't bone our own plan. All of those are very relevant considerations.

I do love Trinisphere though. So, if you can make it into a reality, I'd be thrilled, but I can't currently imagine just jamming Trinisphere into the sideboard and having it pull its weight.

[Moroklumpen]

Iona doesn't stop them from simply casting Emrakul, but I see your point on Canonist.

[Warden]

As a deck that banks on Mox Diamond, Canonist is arguably the best card to run against storm stuff, especially omni/tell. iamajellydonut mentioning canonist having legs is relevant as well.
I don't think Trinisphere is necessarily needed, as much as it's a home-run play. Same for Iona.

[cdnza]

Hey thread, this is super late (was out of town all last week) but I took this deck to the last monthly Legacy tournament at ChannelFireball.

So, in the week leading up to the event I first played a Storm deck at a small local. Out of 13 players, 12 were on blue (with the remaining player on D&T) so I thought perhaps my deck choice was very bad. I decided to try out a Chalice deck, so at the next local I ran this. I sit down opposite Miracles in R1 and proceed to crush (Slaughter Games is actually really good when naming Monastery Mentor!). I'm feeling good about the deck, but proceed to be paired the following two rounds against midrangey green decks. In my third round, for instance, I played against Nic Fit... Is there any way we can beat a Sigarda? It just seems impossible to me!

I am undeterred, and decide that since CFB is typically dominated by Delver, Miracles and Stoneforge strategies this deck is still a good choice. I proceed to get trolled by DCI reporter...

R1
I go to time against Merfolk, and lose in extra turns. Not a lot to say here. It's really difficult to play well when you're super conscious of going to time! Definitely could have won this, I feel (Punishing Fire is insane in this M/U it seems).
0-1

R2
Monored burn. I sigh to myself when I see a Lava Spike while my opponent is shuffling. I lose 8 life from a Dark Confidant in G1. He has Price of Progress. Game 2 he has Price of Progress.
0-2

At this point I'm out of contention and would drop, but I decide to try to get more practice with the deck so I stay in.
R3
RGW Burn. Is this real, DCI Reporter? My opponent has a bad draw after mulliganing but he has two Price of Progress so I lose. Game 2 is similar.

I am pretty demoralised by now after having some complete non-games. But I decide to get more practice still since my friends I traveled with are all x-0
R4
U/R. G1 I make a t1 chalice off diamond. His deck is full of Delvers, Swiftspears, Bolts and cantrips, so I am feeling pretty good. I proceed to draw no way to actually close out the game for a long time and we just sort of carry on. What complicates things is that he draws 3 Price of Progress, so wins without casting any other spell (literally). G2 I kill a Goblin Guide and get out a Sylvan Library and am at a reasonable life total. My opponent just casts two Price of Progress on his turn.

I am now fully demoralised and drop to watch my friends play. What's the moral of the story here? Don't lose the first round of a tournament, otherwise you'll be put into the Price of Progress bracket :(

[iamajellydonut]

draws 3 Price of Progress

wat

That's ridiculous. Merfolk is definitely a good matchup, but you got absolutely rolled for the rest of it. Reminds me of the gent who went 0-3 drop against Burn at GP Lille. Rounds one and two are definitely the most important regardless of what deck you run. Getting stuck in the dregs where Burn and Dragon Stompy lurk definitely leads to a death knell.

Anyway, to make this post actually constructive, you can usually manage to play around a fair Price of Progress. It can of course sneak up and give you a boot square in the buttocks, but usually simple stuff like keeping defensive Wastelands open and prioritizing the basic Forest are enough to keep you safe against blowouts.

[apocolyps6]

I tried Trinisphere for a bit. Fun fact, the opponent can cast Dig Through Times though Trinisphere. Anyway, Canonist is just better unless they have no digs and a pyroclasm. Tho I'd actually argue for holding the first canonist. The deck has plenty of interaction that you can be playing out Thalia, Teeg, Chalice, w.e and all the bears lose to a single clasm so if the board already has 2 pieces of hate and a threat I'd keep the canonist/3ball/thalia in hand.

Burn is definitely a matchup I suggest people sit down and jam for a couple hours. IMO keeping a hand without chalice and one that requires more than 2 non-wasteland non-basics in play usually incorrect. Card advantage should not matter so feel free to mull to whatever too. Mox, Fetch, Dual, Chalice is stronger than Savannah, Knight, Zenith, Library, Wasteland, Loam, Thicket or whatever.

[cdnza]

One of my opponents even boarded in (and then proceeded to cast) multiple Smash to Smithereens O_O

[iamajellydonut]

One of my opponents even boarded in (and then proceeded to cast) multiple Smash to Smithereens O_O

Yeah, that'll uh... That'll happen.

Your best bet against Burn continues to be victory by intimidation and blackmail.

[Moroklumpen]

It almost sounds like chalice on 2 is better than chalice on 1. Managing both sounds ideal.

[Seraphix]

Beat Elves in a match with this deck for the first time ever last night. Feels real good lads.

[maCHOOga]

One of my opponents even boarded in (and then proceeded to cast) multiple Smash to Smithereens O_O

Just don't get discouraged... One time against burn, they price of progressed me, I hydroblasted it and they responded with another price of progress for....22. I've been banefired out of enchantress for exact after starting an open 0-3. I've had my wurmcoil deflecting palmed to kill me when I blocked. All of these scenarios were very demoralizing. Sometimes people just have it!

Burn feels like a boogieman to me. No one admits they play it, I always seems to play against it once at a large event and no one enjoys loosing to it.

[DaDitka]

Hi all,

I've been playing the deck and loving it since schniggaz tore up Prague Eternal.

My success has been mixed. A disastrous first event, followed by some solid results. My main difficulty has been mulliganing correctly since many hands have the right colored mana sources and powerful cards, when in actuality there generally seems to be a specific combination of types of cards we need to not fall behind in the first turn or two.

Muliganing aside, there is one deck that I have just been repeatedly massacred by and have not been able to do well against. This enemy, who is uncomfortably popular around here, is R/G Lands. Multiple matches I have faced down turn 2 or turn 3 Marit Lage with no way to deal with even one token, let alone a second if they go for it again in a few turns if we didn't start with a leyline of the void in play.

From what I can tell, our game plan is to land a fast knight and then use Karakas, Wasteland, and Maze of Ith to either stopping the token entering the battlefield or by bouncing or fogging it when it does. The only problem is the later two options are soft to an opposing wasteland unless they are pulled up at instant speed by knight. I'm assuming a Slaughter Games on Life from the Loam makes things easier, but still, I am struggling.

Any advice for beating lands?

Also, in what match ups do you board Slaughter Games? So far I have been brining it in against Lands, Omni, and Miracles depending on their build. Is it generally correct to board games in vs. Miracles? Am I missing other decks?

Finally, I have been playing two Ethersworn Canonists in the board and no Thalias. What matchups would Thalia come in for? Do you all favor 2 of each, 2 of only one of them, or some other combination?

Thanks.

[Moroklumpen]

Does anyone have it built online? I'd love to see a video series. I couldn't find anything remotely recent on YouTube, but if anyone has a twitch link I'd be grateful.

[maCHOOga]

Any advice for beating lands?

Also, in what match ups do you board Slaughter Games? So far I have been brining it in against Lands, Omni, and Miracles depending on their build. Is it generally correct to board games in vs. Miracles? Am I missing other decks?

Thanks.

Just played against lands last night and the match is pretty miserable. It's basically a lands mirror, just they have a combo and you don't. You need to put them in a position when they have to draw the combo. Sometimes they will just have it and turn 1 or 2 you...there's nothing you can avoid. At least they aren't Belcher!

Otherwise make lands life miserable...
Add Leylines, slaughter games and reclaimation sage.
Take away Teeg (does nothing), punishing fires (you won't have time to win this way) and shave some lilianas.
Slaughter games their loam....

Don't forget slaughter games against ANT naming Tendrils! I also boarded it in against miracle/stoneblade. I have slaughter games'd away the batterskull that was searched out off of a stoneforge mystic so I didn't have to deal with it....

[Pilhas]

Does anyone have it built online? I'd love to see a video series. I couldn't find anything remotely recent on YouTube, but if anyone has a twitch link I'd be grateful.

Missing the Lilis and do not feel like spending ~300$ on them

[schniggaz]

Missing the Lilis and do not feel like spending ~300$ on them


If you would like to do a video series, i can borrow you the Lilis online :)

[Rivfader]

Any advice for beating lands?


Actually, as a Landsplayer I had hard times beating this deck, especially game1. Played it twice in Lille, once against Christoph Alsheimer, lost both matches 1-2. Chalice locks out a lot, and KOTR / Scavenging Ooze hurt a lot. As you say, a quick token is the best scenario to win. But Lands isn't a dedicated combodeck, so a T2-3 token is not that frequent, as an ideal G1 opening hand consists of loam and exploration rather than the combopieces. Also, against an unknown opponent with (an open) white mana it's a risk to combo out early (StP sets Lands 2 landdrops back). So I presume your opponents know what you're playing, and keep combostrong hands against you.

An active Kotr (Karakas, or Wasteland in response to Depths' triggered ability) deals the token pretty well, until then I would delay combopossibilities with Wasteland or Karakas, or even bluff having a Swords in hand. It takes 4 lands/manasources to combo out EOT, so you should at least see it coming (a landsplayer not using his mana is a suspect thing).

[Pilhas]

If you would like to do a video series, i can borrow you the Lilis online :)

Next two weeks I will be abroad on work but we will talk about this for sure :)

[CutthroatCasual]

Just played against lands last night and the match is pretty miserable. It's basically a lands mirror, just they have a combo and you don't.


That's why we should play 1 Depths and 1 Stage.

[iamajellydonut]

That's why we should play 1 Depths and 1 Stage.

I would say "that's terrible reasoning", but there's actually no reasoning present. Fact of the matter is that the only way you'd be able to successfully activate that combo against Lands is if you were already in a winning position.

[Pilhas]

I would say "that's terrible reasoning", but there's actually no reasoning present. Fact of the matter is that the only way you'd be able to successfully activate that combo against Lands is if you were already in a winning position.

Besides, they have more ways to wasteland you, port you and maze of ith you..... I don't believe is a good option at all

[hobart]

Yeah, that'll uh... That'll happen.

Your best bet against Burn continues to be victory by intimidation and blackmail.

Burn is ever present in my meta, and I can expect to see it in every serious event I play. I have one Zuran Orb in the sideboard at the moment and I'm seriously considering making room for a second.

[iamajellydonut]

Burn is ever present in my meta, and I can expect to see it in every serious event I play.

I'm so sorry for you.

D:

[blackdiamonds]

Playing in a 1k today I'll post list n results

[CantDecide]

Hi guys, longtime lurker here, my favourite decks were different maverick variations and jund. Mav didn't use kotr to its fullest though and jund just wasn't anti-blue enough (my meta is exclusively miracles and blue decks). I ended up finding this deck which manipulates my favourite card to its fullest, thank you for designing this deck it's probably my favourite in legacy, or every format.

So on topic, here's my list; http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/4c-loam-dump-truck/ it's at a nice point now, the changes I'm considering are either removing a gsz for a confidant, or a glacial for a confidant and drs for a scooze as I've ran into the chalice=1 and drs nombo too many times and life gain is a nice upside. The reason I want to remove the gsz is that I just feel the need for card draw more often that not is better and going turn 1, tutor for dryad arbor is (however good) a frustrating play later on in the game when I can't use dryad arbor as an anti-liliana/combat trick.

I'm putting this deck together in paper slowly with the staples first and the the deviat's that vary from list to list, and when it is, I'll post reports and such.

Seriously this deck can do some wicked stuff, I won an Omnitel game this morning (xmage) by having a canno it's out and a kotr in hand and him playing show and tell, he drops emrakul, I drop my knight, he ends turn and I sac a taiga for karakas, he concedes. That's definitely 2nd in my favourite plays against show and tell, that card can really be a gamble sometimes

[pocari79]

I played the list that top 8ed the GP with the following sideboard this weekend:

3 Leyline of the Void
2 Slaughter Games
2 Thoughtseize
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Engineered Plague
1 Choke
1 Golgari Charm
1 Toxic Deluge

Deck felt good to play, however I had problems with sideboarding against Mentor Miracles and Grixis control.

Against miracles, I was taking out 3 Punishing Fire, 1 Sylvan Library, 1 Scavenging Ooze and 2 Life from the Loam and putting in 2 Slaughter Games, 1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, 1 Engineered Plague, 1 Choke, 1 Reclamation Sage and 1 Sulfur Elemental.

Against Grixis control, I was taking out 1 Deathrite Shaman, 1 Sylvan Library, 1 Gaddock Teeg, 1 Scavenging Ooze and 2 Punishing Fire and putting in 3 Leyline of the Void, 1 Reclamation Sage, 1 Engineered Plague and 1 Choke.

I am pretty sure that I am not sideboarding correctly at all for these matchups, any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!

[Pilhas]

I played the list that top 8ed the GP with the following sideboard this weekend:

3 Leyline of the Void
2 Slaughter Games
2 Thoughtseize
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Engineered Plague
1 Choke
1 Golgari Charm
1 Toxic Deluge

Deck felt good to play, however I had problems with sideboarding against Mentor Miracles and Grixis control.

Against miracles, I was taking out 3 Punishing Fire, 1 Sylvan Library, 1 Scavenging Ooze and 2 Life from the Loam and putting in 2 Slaughter Games, 1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, 1 Engineered Plague, 1 Choke, 1 Reclamation Sage and 1 Sulfur Elemental.

Against Grixis control, I was taking out 1 Deathrite Shaman, 1 Sylvan Library, 1 Gaddock Teeg, 1 Scavenging Ooze and 2 Punishing Fire and putting in 3 Leyline of the Void, 1 Reclamation Sage, 1 Engineered Plague and 1 Choke.

I am pretty sure that I am not sideboarding correctly at all for these matchups, any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!

Purely from a outsider opinion(since my sideboard is a bit different) I would never take all punishing fires against Miracles, even less if its Mentor Miracles. I would go with -1 PFire -2 Mox(not sure if correct against Mentor) -1 Ooze -1 Loam -1 Maze -1 Shaman. If I am really afraid of the Mentor I might bring Deluge+Charm but I am not sure its necessary.

Against Grixis Control it really depends on the version. If it is the version with Shamans and Anglers I bring the Leylines, if not I wont bring them. I believe the matchup is quite good for us.
I believe you need the Deluge and Charm in this matchup

[apocolyps6]

3 Punishing Fire
No way this is correct. You wanna board out like 1-2 against normal miracles, and it is better here.

1 Sylvan Library
If the deck plays out anything like normal miracles, (control rather than tempo) Library is amazing. Only cut it in matchups like infect where you literally can't take a turn off the whole game.

1 Scavenging Ooze
It is a dumb beater and you don't need dumb beaters.

2 Life from the Loam
Typically against miracles I leave 1 in. They do play non-basics and in the late-game Loam > Jace.


How have people been liking Slaughter Games against "tempo miracles"? It feels like they are actually just playing tempo against us and The T3 mentor is their biggest thing. As a non-blue deck things have to go pretty well for us to play Games before they play mentor, and afterwards the card does not help.

[Pilhas]

3 Punishing Fire
No way this is correct. You wanna board out like 1-2 against normal miracles, and it is better here.

1 Sylvan Library
If the deck plays out anything like normal miracles, (control rather than tempo) Library is amazing. Only cut it in matchups like infect where you literally can't take a turn off the whole game.

1 Scavenging Ooze
It is a dumb beater and you don't need dumb beaters.

2 Life from the Loam
Typically against miracles I leave 1 in. They do play non-basics and in the late-game Loam > Jace.


How have people been liking Slaughter Games against "tempo miracles"? It feels like they are actually just playing tempo against us and The T3 mentor is their biggest thing. As a non-blue deck things have to go pretty well for us to play Games before they play mentor, and afterwards the card does not help.

Still not enough testing but they feel kinda off. When you are able to cast 1 early game is great but since it goes to a more aggressive game they don't feel as awesome as they are against regular miracles

[iamajellydonut]

-2 Mox(not sure if correct against Mentor)

I've seen this more than a few times with regards to various match-ups, but as I have yet to take out a single Mox in any game ever, I'm still thoroughly confused. Why take out Mox Diamond against Miracles (or DnT or whatever)? I am never not thrilled to see a Mox.

In other news, as to boarding preferences...

I don't like bringing in the full complement of Leylines against any variety of Grixis. If you want to gamble with a singleton, go ahead. But Leyline is not critical in the slightest, and seeing it outside of your opening hand can be devastating for you. And God forbid you ever see multiples of it.

I liked Slaughter Games a lot more against "old Miracles" than I do against "new Miracles". I went back down to only a single copy in the sideboard after Mentor started getting to be the norm. Casting Slaugher Games and naming either Monastery Mentor or Sensei's Divining Top still feels amazing, but the old style of Miracles was such that you could just cast Slaughter Games after Slaughter Games completely at your leisure to the point where they no longer had a deck. And that's not the case anymore. Getting laden with two or three Slaughter Games isn't the slow-roll godsend it used to be. I do still bring in my one copy, but only the one.

Try hitting tokens with Punishing Fire rather than the Mentor himself. It's easy for them to defend the Mentor, but you can usually trim back the tokens fairly easily. Not the most efficient path to victory, but it will give you enough breathing room to come up with a hard solution for Mentor.

[Warden]

How do you make room (ie; what to cut) against 1) Reanimator and 2) Omni-Tell? I don't know what I should be pulling.
Because I'm testing this deck out AND the SB is a pile/tinkering, I just need to know what I can realistically cut for G2/3 space.

Reanimator (1-0 online) - pulled Gaddock (1), Decays (3), Pfires (3) = 7 slots
Omni (0-2 online) - pulled Pfires (3), pulled a Sylvan (1), Maze? (1) = 4 or 5 slots

Cockatrice is not a good barometer, but it certainly helps shake the rust. Beat a UWx landstandstill deck easily. This deck is just value city.

[schniggaz]

I played the list that top 8ed the GP with the following sideboard this weekend:

3 Leyline of the Void
2 Slaughter Games
2 Thoughtseize
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Engineered Plague
1 Choke
1 Golgari Charm
1 Toxic Deluge

Deck felt good to play, however I had problems with sideboarding against Mentor Miracles and Grixis control.

Against miracles, I was taking out 3 Punishing Fire, 1 Sylvan Library, 1 Scavenging Ooze and 2 Life from the Loam and putting in 2 Slaughter Games, 1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, 1 Engineered Plague, 1 Choke, 1 Reclamation Sage and 1 Sulfur Elemental.

Against Grixis control, I was taking out 1 Deathrite Shaman, 1 Sylvan Library, 1 Gaddock Teeg, 1 Scavenging Ooze and 2 Punishing Fire and putting in 3 Leyline of the Void, 1 Reclamation Sage, 1 Engineered Plague and 1 Choke.

I am pretty sure that I am not sideboarding correctly at all for these matchups, any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!


With your sideboard, I would board like this against Mentor Miracles (GP Lille Winner):

-1 Sc. Ooze
-1 Loam
-2 Mox Diamond
-1 Maze of Ith
-1 Punishing Fire

+1 Rec. Sage
+1 Sl. Games
+1 Choke
+1 E. Plague
+1 S. Elemental
+1 Thalia

If you could link a sample decklist to a Grixis Control list I can also give you my opinion to that matchup ;)

@Warden:

Considering the SB suggested by pocari:

Omnitell:

-1 Maze of Ith
-3 Fire
-3 Decay
-1 Loam
-1 Liliana
-1 Ooze

+2 Slaughter Games
+2 Thoughtseize
+1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
+1 Ethersworn Canonist
+1 Reclamation Sage
+1 Choke
+1 Golgari Charm (I would like to have the second Charm here over the Deluge!)
+1 Plague (Do not like this, second Charm would be better to board in)

Reanimate:

-3 Fire
-2 Loam
-2 Library
-1 Teeg
-1 Decay (you need some for P. Needle)

+3 Leyline of the Void
+2 Slaughter Games
+2 Thoughtseize
+1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
+1 Ethersworn Canonist

[Pilhas]

@schniggaz
Do you think canonist is good vs reanimate? I usually find it lackluster, eould probably prefer sage over it

[neddsaurus]

As a DNT player, how should I be siding? There's so many angles to your deck. I feel like I want 2 rip, e tutor, needle, absolute law. I play green splash so I also want library.

Is thalia and Wingmare an issue for u guys? Do I bring in aageddon? Really hoping you guys can shed some light.

I've only played the deck once

[Pilhas]

As a DNT player, how should I be siding? There's so many angles to your deck. I feel like I want 2 rip, e tutor, needle, absolute law. I play green splash so I also want library.

Is thalia and Wingmare an issue for u guys? Do I bring in aageddon? Really hoping you guys can shed some light.

I've only played the deck once

Taxing effects are good when you attack our mana, you know that we are probably shaving CotV so you wont be needing disenchants. I like RiP, Absolute Law and Needle here. If you can do a tempoish game, attack our mana with a thalia on board and another beater I think you are good to go.

[maCHOOga]

Ever since GP Lille I have been playing this deck and I like it a lot. I am still having issues with the Miracles matchup. Between a few tournaments my records are 2-1, 3-0 and 2-1-2. The two losses and two draws have all been against various flavor of miracles.

I seem to win game 1 based on attrition, chalice and wastelands. Games two and three seem atrocious. The last event I lost every game two and often had <10 minutes left for game threes.

All of my game 2/3s seem to play out the same way. Since they know my general game plan, they bring in blood moon, wear/tear, rest in peace. I prefetch a forest and let blood moon resolve. Usually from there on out, I'm trying to dig for an answer to bloodmoon while they try to land a threat.

When is the best time to call it quits when you fall behind?

For games 2/3 I've been shaving loams and thinning punishing fires. I also sideboard out a knight for a Thrun, since he doesn't rely on the graveyard and requires them to find terminus pronto.

I've been boarding in: choke, Golgari charm, Thrun, rec sage and slaughter games.

- I've been unimpressed with choke. It's basically a card that slows them down but can be dealt with. Has anyone tried boil in this spot?
- Lilliana is a house against them, but near impossible to cast under a
- Likewise, if you slaughter games, what do you name? Usually their threats are well diversified, so it doesn't do much. Obviously it's good against the mentor version
- Lastly, I've been toying with the idea of changing a barren moor into a basic swamp, to help mitigate against the blood moon decks. Lands only plays two cycles, why do we play 3?

[pocari79]

Thanks for all the responses!!! Will definitely test out all the recommendations.

@schniggaz
I am not sure what my opponent's exact grixis control list was but it did have multiple True-Name Nemesis, some Jace, Mind Sculptors, Young Pyromancers, Gurmag Anglers, Dig Through Times, Dack Fayden and no Deathrites. Game 1 I pretty much just lost to a True-Name cause I couldn't stick a Liliana to kill it and Game 2 I tapped out for no good reason and got Blood Mooned even though I had an abrupt decay in hand and was thinking I should leave up mana for it.... I did have a basic forest in play and was waiting for a Mox Diamond to cast a decay but then he played a sideboard Null Rod and that was it. I did have the turn 0 leyline against him and he said after the game that it did cripple his deck so it seems like a legit card to board in if it makes an impact like that.

@maCHOOga
I also feel like wanting to replace a cycling land with a basic swamp. In all my games during the weekend, I either pitched the cycling lands I drew to fuel the Mox Diamonds on turn 1 or I just cycled it as soon as possible to try to dig deeper in the deck. I know it's meant to save your Life from the Loam against cards like Surgical Extraction but I hardly got Loam and the cycling lands in my hand/graveyard at the same time so maybe I'm just using the cycling lands wrong?

[apocolyps6]

Cycle lands

I think you guys are expecting a bit too much of individual cards. The cycle lands are there because there isn't too much else to spend a single mana on, and they make loam better in a couple of ways. It isn't "meant" for any kind of higher purpose. The reason we play 3 cycle lands and Lands plays 2 is the same reason D&T plays 4 Thalias and Maverick plays 3.

Choke V Boil

When are you playing your Choke? The card wins games. If they tap out on turn 2 and you land a choke they are basically half dead already. I'd play boil or Tsunami if they also turned all future islands into lotus petals.

Blood Moon

The "blood moon decks" all suck against us. Basically keep a fetch on the play or a mox in your opener and you win. Just getting to cast our spells against these decks is good enough. The decks that bring in moon (Miracles and Grixis) can be harder. This is mostly because blood moon is a humility for lands rather than color screw. As always, zenith for rec sage is not something they can take away from you.

[Pilhas]

Thanks for all the responses!!! Will definitely test out all the recommendations.

@schniggaz
I am not sure what my opponent's exact grixis control list was but it did have multiple True-Name Nemesis, some Jace, Mind Sculptors, Young Pyromancers, Gurmag Anglers, Dig Through Times, Dack Fayden and no Deathrites. Game 1 I pretty much just lost to a True-Name cause I couldn't stick a Liliana to kill it and Game 2 I tapped out for no good reason and got Blood Mooned even though I had an abrupt decay in hand and was thinking I should leave up mana for it.... I did have a basic forest in play and was waiting for a Mox Diamond to cast a decay but then he played a sideboard Null Rod and that was it. I did have the turn 0 leyline against him and he said after the game that it did cripple his deck so it seems like a legit card to board in if it makes an impact like that.

@maCHOOga
I also feel like wanting to replace a cycling land with a basic swamp. In all my games during the weekend, I either pitched the cycling lands I drew to fuel the Mox Diamonds on turn 1 or I just cycled it as soon as possible to try to dig deeper in the deck. I know it's meant to save your Life from the Loam against cards like Surgical Extraction but I hardly got Loam and the cycling lands in my hand/graveyard at the same time so maybe I'm just using the cycling lands wrong?

If he had TNN and YoungP you definitely need the charm and deluge. When they don't rely heavily on the graveyard(Shaman+Anglers) I usually do not bring the Leylines since a ooze might hurt more and is a beater.

I am not really sure if cycle lands are meant to protect loam, for me it is only a plus. They act as an engine in the late game and I see way to many people afraid of playing them as a tapland.

[neddsaurus]

Taxing effects are good when you attack our mana, you know that we are probably shaving CotV so you wont be needing disenchants. I like RiP, Absolute Law and Needle here. If you can do a tempoish game, attack our mana with a thalia on board and another beater I think you are good to go.I have armageddon. Is that worthwhile to bring in?

What do I side out? Random beaters? I feel like I want to leave in pridemages for library and chalice if they're still left in. Revoker on mox and knight seem good. Is teeg x3 worthwhile to bring in?

[Pilhas]

I have armageddon. Is that worthwhile to bring in?

What do I side out? Random beaters? I feel like I want to leave in pridemages for library and chalice if they're still left in. Revoker on mox and knight seem good. Is teeg x3 worthwhile to bring in?

Teegs only stop 2 GSZ so they ar a no-go.
Without knowing the decklist is hard to say what to take out, and even still I do not play D&T so its kinda hard for me to know what you have to take out.
If you have crusaders they are good, mothers are obviously good, revoker are also good IMO. I have mixed feeling on the armaggedon, I think it is a bit of win more card.

I never lose against D&T when they try to out-grind me. But I lost quite a few times when they opt for a tempoish approach

[neddsaurus]

Teegs only stop 2 GSZ so they ar a no-go.
Without knowing the decklist is hard to say what to take out, and even still I do not play D&T so its kinda hard for me to know what you have to take out.
If you have crusaders they are good, mothers are obviously good, revoker are also good IMO. I have mixed feeling on the armaggedon, I think it is a bit of win more card.

I never lose against D&T when they try to out-grind me. But I lost quite a few times when they opt for a tempoish approach

Oh sorry

4 Mom
4 thalia
4 stoneforge
3 qasali
2 serra avenger
3 Revoker
2 Wingmare
3 flickerwisp

4 vial
4 stp
1 sword fire ice
Jitte
batterskull


Board
sylvan library
3 teeg
choke
1 absolute law
2 rip
3 ethersworn
1 needle
1 E Tutor
armageddon
grafdigger

[schniggaz]

@schniggaz
Do you think canonist is good vs reanimate? I usually find it lackluster, eould probably prefer sage over it

Well, it is not that amazing, but I think it's fine. At least they can't go nuts in one turn by discarding a creature and reanimate in the same turn or bounce your gravehate and reanimate or cantrip into anything. Furthermore it is a creature you like to play out early to get some damage in. Rec Sage is different. You want to wait on him until there is a Needle out there and this means not getting in for a few points of damage which can definitely make the difference.


Thanks for all the responses!!! Will definitely test out all the recommendations.

@schniggaz
I am not sure what my opponent's exact grixis control list was but it did have multiple True-Name Nemesis, some Jace, Mind Sculptors, Young Pyromancers, Gurmag Anglers, Dig Through Times, Dack Fayden and no Deathrites. Game 1 I pretty much just lost to a True-Name cause I couldn't stick a Liliana to kill it and Game 2 I tapped out for no good reason and got Blood Mooned even though I had an abrupt decay in hand and was thinking I should leave up mana for it.... I did have a basic forest in play and was waiting for a Mox Diamond to cast a decay but then he played a sideboard Null Rod and that was it. I did have the turn 0 leyline against him and he said after the game that it did cripple his deck so it seems like a legit card to board in if it makes an impact like that.

+2 Leyline of the Void
+1 Reclamation Sage
+1 Engineered Plague
+1 Choke
+1 Golgari Charm
+1 Toxic Deluge (again: second Charm would be better to randomly destroy Blood Moon)

-3 Abrupt Decay (outside of Blood Moon, there is nothing you can really hit with it, Rec. Sage and two Charm should be good enough while being more versatile)
-1 Gaddock Teeg
-1 Life from the Loam
-1 Maze of Ith
-1 Liliana of the Veil

If his list is just a few cards different, sideboarding may change a lot.

@neddsaurus:

I would not board in the Tutor. There is not a single card that says: I win the game, so the card disadvantage is not worth it.
Otherwise, I do not like giving too many advices how to sideboard against 4c-Loam. Sorry :D

[pocari79]

@schniggaz
Thanks for the sideboard suggestions!! I am very surprised that you would want to board out all the decays and just rely on Golgari Charm (which could be countered) to deal with Blood Moon. I understand that the charm can also be used to kill true names, young pyros and the 1/1 tokens but it just feels scary when a charm could get countered when you try to destroy a blood moon as a resolved blood moon feels like it's game over unless you have a couple of mox diamonds in play already.

[Pilhas]

To the people testing out Sulfur Elemental, how has it been?
My meta does not have Mentor Miracles, and I believe we have some tools to beat mentor against other Mentor decks.

[apocolyps6]

How do you guys feel about one landers?

On one hand, I am pretty aggressive about mulling subpar hands. On the other hand I'm playing 28 lands now and if there is anything I'm favored to draw...

Would you guys keep these hands? Why/why not?

1) Bayou, Zenith, Bob, Decay, Pfire, Chalice

2) Wasteland, Mox, Chalice, Knight, Zenith, Decay, Loam

3) Fetch, Chalice, Knight, Decay, 2x Loam

4) Savannah, DRS, 2x Decay, Pfire, Thicket, Scooze


1) On the play, in the bind I'd be tempted to keep. I think the more disciplined decision is to mull here, but I can see myself trying it. On the draw they will have an easier time killing the arbor so I'd mull.
2) I could be talked into keeping on the play, but I think I'd mull. On the draw it is really close and I'm not sure what I'd do.
3) Pretty uncontroversial mull on the play or the draw. you either play magic or you don't with this hand.
4) The hand is fragile and doesn't have any huge reason to keep. I'd mull both on the play and the draw.