[Deck] Aggro Loam

[Bobmans]

Congratulations with your awesome result in Frankfurt. I saw you smash my friend on Grixis in R8 (i think) with 2 KotR in G3...
Keep up the good work and thumbs up for Chandra, Flamecaller.

[rlesko]

Wow...lots of good information here. I have to say, I have never been able to beat Lands with this deck. They always open up with T1 exploration / manabond and proceed to waste or port me out of the game. Not sure how others feel, but I would love to beat this match up.

I could see myself making room for 2 copies of swords to plowshares, however, it seems dismember could serve a similar role without interfering with chalices and such? I'm hesitant to cut Leylines entirely though.

Is it fair to cut the thoughtseizes due to the lack of fast combo in the meta now? It seems Eldrazi has all but pushed out storm. Show and tell does seem like its on the rise though, which is a terrible MU.

[schniggaz]

Wow...lots of good information here. I have to say, I have never been able to beat Lands with this deck. They always open up with T1 exploration / manabond and proceed to waste or port me out of the game. Not sure how others feel, but I would love to beat this match up.

I could see myself making room for 2 copies of swords to plowshares, however, it seems dismember could serve a similar role without interfering with chalices and such? I'm hesitant to cut Leylines entirely though.

Is it fair to cut the thoughtseizes due to the lack of fast combo in the meta now? It seems Eldrazi has all but pushed out storm. Show and tell does seem like its on the rise though, which is a terrible MU.

It is hard form me to help you with your problems in the Lands Matchup, because I had pretty good results against them. But lets see what others think about the matchup.

Dismember serves a similiar role. But it has other downsides, BIG downsides. Paying life against Delver is horrible, you take 3 from Bob, worse against Burn (Sword your own guy for example), can't always deal with opposing Knights/Reanimate-Creatures/12Post-Primeval Titan/Veteran Explorers/Ichorids and Nacromoebas and so on, and you are missing out on the sweet Swords+Punishing Fire interaction. They just play in different leagues. Sorry Dismember :(

Cutting the Thoughtseizes for tournaments at your LGS can be correct. But it is Legacy, Combo will never be dead, people play what they are used to and good at, I would always expect to face some sort of Combo Deck at least two times at a GP.


Congratulations with your awesome result in Frankfurt. I saw you smash my friend on Grixis in R8 (i think) with 2 KotR in G3...
Keep up the good work and thumbs up for Chandra, Flamecaller.

It was Round 8. He is a good player :)
And this was another good example of how good Swords was in the deck. Game 3, otd against 4c/Grixis Delver, Hand: 2x Swords, 4 Lands, Knight. I would have lost by having two mana removal spells in my hand.

[Aberosh1819]

It is hard form me to help you with your problems in the Lands Matchup, because I had pretty good results against them. But lets see what others think about the matchup.


Maybe I've been fortunate against Lands, but I've found the combination of Chalice and Leyline is generally enough to put the match firmly in our favor unless they are on the recent Jund build (Abrupt Decay) AND have a great draw.

If they have the "Lands Draw" on the play, I just prepare to move on unless I have a clear line to dig my way out. A Leyline and a Sword (in the recent discussion) in that situation could conceivably get you out of the early game while they stall out by being hellbent and drawing one card per turn.

It's not a perfect plan, but my limited experience with the match-up suggests that it is reasonable.

[Moroklumpen]

Maybe I've been fortunate against Lands, but I've found the combination of Chalice and Leyline is generally enough to put the match firmly in our favor unless they are on the recent Jund build (Abrupt Decay) AND have a great draw.

If they have the "Lands Draw" on the play, I just prepare to move on unless I have a clear line to dig my way out. A Leyline and a Sword (in the recent discussion) in that situation could conceivably get you out of the early game while they stall out by being hellbent and drawing one card per turn.

It's not a perfect plan, but my limited experience with the match-up suggests that it is reasonable.

I second this. In my experience, Chalice is only bad against Lands when we aren't beating them anyway. Setting it at 1 forces them to play fair; setting it at 2 shuts off almost all their relevant spells. This will usually buy you enough time to draw into something useful. We have very few means of interaction that aren't trumped by their good draws; I think disregarding Chalice in the matchup is a mistake.

[rlesko]

Maybe I'm just unlucky then. The few times I have won (games, not matches) were on the back of leyline, which is why I don't want to cut it.

[apocolyps6]

I have also had no problems with lands, but if Leylines are not giving you MATCH wins, then does it really matter if you have them? They seem not good enough in the matchup for you.

[Aberosh1819]

I have also had no problems with lands, but if Leylines are not giving you MATCH wins, then does it really matter if you have them? They seem not good enough in the matchup for you.

Looking at your current sideboard, and super curious as to your board plan.

1x Choke
2x Dread of Night (Is this just against D&T?)
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Meren of Clan Nel Toth (I've asked before, but still unclear as to when it comes in)
2x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Reclamation Sage
3x Swords to Plowshares
2x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben (Has this been enough against Storm? Do you also bring it in for shenanigans against Jitte decks?)
2x Toxic Deluge (I am interested in cutting this per the commentary above, do you feel it is necessary still?

Is your current Lands plan -3 Fires / +3 Swords, and calling it a day? Do you bring in Revoker on Port and also pull Decays?

I'm working out my sideboard plans for Columbus, and have not had any time to test (can't complain, being busy at work isn't a bad thing), so pardon my inquisition!

[rlesko]

I have also had no problems with lands, but if Leylines are not giving you MATCH wins, then does it really matter if you have them? They seem not good enough in the matchup for you.

Well, if I have a decent 6 card hand without a Leyline, I'm not going to mull into oblivion trying to find one while they just durdle until K Grip or make a 20/20 anyways in the first couple turns...

The card does win matches, its just not like vs dredge where I will explicitly mull to one.


Looking at your current sideboard, and super curious as to your board plan.

1x Choke
2x Dread of Night (Is this just against D&T?)
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Meren of Clan Nel Toth (I've asked before, but still unclear as to when it comes in)
2x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Reclamation Sage
3x Swords to Plowshares
2x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben (Has this been enough against Storm? Do you also bring it in for shenanigans against Jitte decks?)
2x Toxic Deluge (I am interested in cutting this per the commentary above, do you feel it is necessary still?

Is your current Lands plan -3 Fires / +3 Swords, and calling it a day? Do you bring in Revoker on Port and also pull Decays?

I'm working out my sideboard plans for Columbus, and have not had any time to test (can't complain, being busy at work isn't a bad thing), so pardon my inquisition!

Revoker can't name Rishadan Port. I think the card I'm most likely to cut is Choke. Its not necessary to beat Delver, its decent vs miracles but again, we can beat them without the card anyways.

[apocolyps6]

I've only played like 3 matches agaisnt combo lands, so the plan isn't set in stone. I would look to bring in the 3 stp, 2 thalia and 1 rec sage. Sage should have targets, and thalia along with chalices slows down their most broken draws.

I'd cut fpires, dismember, and maybe 1 cycle land, 1 decay
(rec sage is basically a decay)

This matchup so far has been about wasteland fights or navigating a scooze around pfires moreso than any SB card.

Meren comes in agaisnt Shardless, Jund, Eldrazi, nic fit. anywhere where the game will go long enough to zenith out a 4 drop and have creatures in the graveyard for it to recur.

Dread of night: there is a lot of D&T in my meta. Maaybe with the STPs I can try to shave these.

Thalia + Revoker(LED,petal) come in against storm. That plus chalice, zenith and teeg give me a pretty strong storm matchup

I agree that Deluge leaves some to be desired, but I use this against midrange and combo (elves, TES) moreso than tempo. I think I would bring it in agaisnt 4c delver but im not sure. It is not an early game card in the matchup, I would but out force with knights and such before casting the Deluge.

For the sake of completion, we should talk about pyroclasm. it is cheaper than deluge, and hits more than gcharm

Previously I has played deluge party as a bad m-pulse agains nic-fit. With STPs, maybe I will replace them with something. I'd need to test more tho

[schniggaz]

How to win GP Columbus/Prague

- play 4c-Loam

- play Dark Depths Combo + Maze of Ith in your 75.
- playing the Dark Depths as your 61 card Maindeck could be correct
- play at least three Swords to Plowshares in your Sideboard
- bring the following pool for late minute changes, and how many of them you might and should play:

Maindeck

4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Dark Confidant
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
0-1 Deathrite Shaman

1-2 Sylvan Library
2-3 Life from the Loam
2 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Liliana of the Veil

3-4 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire

4 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice of the Void

1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Wasteland
1 Tranquill Thicket
1-2 Barren Moor
1 Forest
2 Bayou
0-1 Plateau
0-1 Taiga
0-1 Badlands
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
2-4 Verdant Catacombs
2-4 Windswept Heath
2-4 Wooded Foothills
0-1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoths
0-1 Thespian Stage
0-1 Dark Depths

Sideboard

0-1 Chandra,Flamecaller
1-2 Golgari Charm
2 Thoughtseize
0-2 Ethersworn Canonist
0-2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
0-2 Phyrexian Revoker
0-2 Pithing Needle
3-4 Swords to Plowshares
0-1 Crop Rotation
0-1 Thespian Stage
0-1 Dark Depths
0-1 Bojuka Bog
0-1 Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
0-3 Leyline of the Void
1-2 Garruk Relentless
0-1 Sulfur Elemental
0-1 Slaughter Games
0-1 Toxic Deluge
1 Reclamation Sage
0-1 Choke

And this is my first attempt:

4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Dark Confidant
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Deathrite Shaman

1 Sylvan Library
3 Life from the Loam
2 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Liliana of the Veil

3 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire

4 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice of the Void

1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Wasteland
1 Tranquil Thicket
1 Barren Moor
1 Forest
2 Bayou
1 Plateau
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Badlands
3 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
1 Thespian Stage
1 Dark Depths

And two potential sideboards:

1 Reclamation Sage
1 Golgari Charm
1 Chandra, Flamecaller
1 Garruk Relentless
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Thoughtseize
2 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Leyline of the Void


1 Reclamation Sage
1 Golgari Charm
1 Chandra, Flamecaller
1 Garruk Relentless
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Thoughtseize
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Tabernacle, at Pendrell Vale
1 Crop Rotation
1 Bojuka Bog

[Pilhas]

How to win GP Columbus/Prague

- bring the following pool for late minute changes, and how many of them you might and should play:


2 cards missing from the pool.

Tabernacle and Chandra :)

Is the 3rd Loam necessary due to the combo in main deck? I have been playing only 1(which is probably wrong) but 3 just seem so many.

[schniggaz]

2 cards missing from the pool.

Tabernacle and Chandra :)

Is the 3rd Loam necessary due to the combo in main deck? I have been playing only 1(which is probably wrong) but 3 just seem so many.


I am pretty sure that one is not enough. I played two last week and was lacking it a lot. In Game 1 I want to gain as much advantage from my graveyard as possible, by adding DD to the Maindeck that is even more relevant. Boarding some Loams out, to rely less on the graveyard, is of course always a viable option. Surpringsingly Library underperformed. She was too slow against Eldrazis and got killed and pumped Tarmogoys against Shardless. So going to a 3-1 split of Loam and Library is what I am trying now.

I never played 61 cards before. But just adding a combo piece and free some sideboard slots should be worth it. Any opinions on that?

[Pilhas]

I am pretty sure that one is not enough. I played two last week and was lacking it a lot. In Game 1 I want to gain as much advantage from my graveyard as possible, by adding DD to the Maindeck that is even more relevant. Boarding some Loams out, to rely less on the graveyard, is of course always a viable option. Surpringsingly Library underperformed. She was too slow against Eldrazis and got killed and pumped Tarmogoys against Shardless. So going to a 3-1 split of Loam and Library is what I am trying now.

I never played 61 cards before. But just adding a combo piece and free some sideboard slots should be worth it. Any opinions on that?

Although I was never a fan of playing with 61 cards(stigma more than anything else) I never found a viable solution when playing with the combo. Since we use knight, loam, GSZ, I think it should not be a problem. The other option is to cut a land and play 26 lands. Do you think it messes the manbase too much?

[Bobmans]

I am pretty sure that one is not enough. I played two last week and was lacking it a lot. In Game 1 I want to gain as much advantage from my graveyard as possible, by adding DD to the Maindeck that is even more relevant. Boarding some Loams out, to rely less on the graveyard, is of course always a viable option. Surpringsingly Library underperformed. She was too slow against Eldrazis and got killed and pumped Tarmogoys against Shardless. So going to a 3-1 split of Loam and Library is what I am trying now.

I never played 61 cards before. But just adding a combo piece and free some sideboard slots should be worth it. Any opinions on that?

For a couple of weeks i have been playing 61 MD just to add PFire #4. It feels if it has drastically increased my ability to control the board. So far i am happy with it. Not only reach on spamming on creatures, but also added in finding them when gunning down an opponent in a grindy game.
The rest of the list is pretty stock with 27 lands including DD/Stage and Arbor. On paper i really hate playing 61 cards, but it sometimes adds just that sweet spot on design space. Most of my NicFit lists has been running 61 cards and so far i never had any problems with it.

[Claymore]

I built this for GP Charlotte legacy challenges. I went 3-1 (last round was ID) and 2-2 with it. It felt fine, but an overall 5-3 record wasn't super great. I beat DnT, Lands 2-0, some other decks, and got beat by Shardless 1-2, Belcher 0-2?, and I think 4c Delver 1-2.

I blew out Lands by playing a Thespian's stage and copying their Dark Depths game 1, and game 2 used Crop Rotation to get Thespian Stage to copy their Depths again, waste their Karakas, Swords on their Marit Lage so that mine could swing through.

Stage Depths let me win very quickly against Death and Taxes game 2 I believe, and Maze plus Thespian copying it let me survive against a flying onslaught long enough to stabilize and turn the game around from 1 life.

I think I had some subpar sideboarding, like keeping in Chalices and bringing in the Swords against Delver. I got a Chalice down fine...and then drew two Swords.

Overall it felt fine.

61 cards

1 Badlands
1 Barren Moor
2 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Forest
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Taiga
1 Tranquil Thicket
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
2 Windswept Heath

1 Dark Depths
1 Thespian's Stage

3 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire
2 Life from the Loam
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Sylvan Library

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond

4 Dark Confidant
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Scavenging Ooze

Sideboard:

1 Bojuka Bog
1 Crop Rotation
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Golgari Charm
1 Reclamation Sage
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge

[Pilhas]

How did the tabernacle behave? Theoretically it is a great card for the meta, but I haven't tested.

[Oxide]

Hey guys!

im planning to play this lovely deck in prague, but its been awhile since i've played it.

My question is, how do you guys sideboard against miracles? last time i played the deck i took out 2 loams, 2 mos diamonds, 1 ooze, and maybe some other random card. But im pretty sure thats not optimal.

My current list looks like this:

Main (61):
(11 creature spells):
4x Knight of the Reliquary
4x Dark Confidant
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Deathrite Shaman

(23 non-creature spells):
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Mox Diamond
4x Abrupt Decay
3x Punishing Fire
3x Liliana of the Veil
2x Life from the Loam
2x Green Sun's Zenith
2x Sylvan Library

(26 lands):
4x Wasteland
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Grove of the Burnwillows
2x Windswept Heath
2x Bayou
1x Taiga
1x Scrubland
1x Savannah
1x Badlands
1x Forest
1x Karakas
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Maze of Ith
1x Thespian's Stage
1x Dark Dephts
1x Dryad Arbor

SB (15):
3x Swords to Plowshares
2x Slaughter Games
2x Thoughtseize
2x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1x Golgari Charm
1x Crop Rotation
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Choke
1x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Reclamation Sage

Before MKM Frankfurt i played with Leylines, but i really like this new sideboard plan made by Niklas.
But for now i stil cant get myself to cut Slaughter games from board.

Any help would be preciated

Feel free to comment on the list aswell.

Oxide.

[Pilhas]

Against miracles I usually cut 2 mox, ooze, shaman, 1 loam, maze of ith
You can bring 2 thalia, 1 rec sage, 1 choke

Since you have 2 slots left you can fill with golgari charm/thoughtseize/Slaughter games depending on the build.
If it is an entreat+jace build only slaughter is awesome, but nowadays it is very hard to know which 75 they are playing.


Regarding the list, slaughter games is too slow against combo decks in my opinion;
you kinda fold to a mentor, sulfur elemental(or chandra) might be a good option in the sideboard.

[Oxide]

Against miracles I usually cut 2 mox, ooze, shaman, 1 loam, maze of ith
You can bring 2 thalia, 1 rec sage, 1 choke

Since you have 2 slots left you can fill with golgari charm/thoughtseize/Slaughter games depending on the build.
If it is an entreat+jace build only slaughter is awesome, but nowadays it is very hard to know which 75 they are playing.


Regarding the list, slaughter games is too slow against combo decks in my opinion;
you kinda fold to a mentor, sulfur elemental(or chandra) might be a good option in the sideboard.

Thanks for the quick answer mate :)

im going to my local tonight, and ill give the main deck a go with the following sideboard:

3x Swords
2x Thoughtsieze
2x Thalia
1x Crop rotation
1x Bojuka
1x Tabernacle
1x Sage
1x G charm
1x Choke
1x Deluge
1x Chandra

Ill let you guys know how it went!

[pocari79]

Quick tournament report.

This past Sunday, I played 74/75 that Niklas played at the MKM a couple of weekends ago just to try out all the changes. The only change I made was -1 Ethersworn Canonist, +1 Containment Priest since there are always people playing Sneak/Show and Reanimator in my local meta and hardly anybody playing Storm of any kind so I felt like it was a reasonable change. I actually wanted to replace both Canonists with Priests but couldn't find a second Priest in time.

It was a 6 round event, here's how I did:
Round 1: Sneak/Show W (2-1)
Round 2: 12 Post W (2-0)
Round 3: Jund W (2-0)
Round 4: TES W (2-1)
Round 5: Grixis Delver Draw
Round 6: BWR Tokens Bombardment Draw

Top 8 was: UR Delver, Grixis Delver, UR Landstill, BWR Tokens, Legendary Miracles, RW Eldrazi, Green & Taxes and myself.

I played against UR Landstill in the quarters and just got stomped as Spell Snare and Spell Pierce just countered everything I cast. It was pretty demoralizing that he was able to counter each of my plays from turns 1~4.

Unfortunately, I wasn't really able to try out a lot of the sideboard cards as I just never drew them. I also did get lucky to win against Sneak/Show where in Game 3, I needed to topdeck a fetchland, a dual or a Karakas to win and I drew the Karakas and against TES in game 3, he just got land flooded despite him playing only 13 lands... But the deck still felt great against the field, I'm definitely going to try out the sideboard at the next tournament.

Edit: Just wondering, has there been any consideration in replacing Swords to Plowshares with Path to Exile in the board? I feel that in the current meta, hardly anybody plays basics so the drawback for Path wouldn't be as bad? Also, I have been thinking of replacing one Wasteland with a Ghost Quarter. It would be nice to have the ability to kill basics in grindy matchups since that would put additional pressure on the opponent.

[schniggaz]

Hey guys!

im planning to play this lovely deck in prague, but its been awhile since i've played it.

My question is, how do you guys sideboard against miracles? last time i played the deck i took out 2 loams, 2 mos diamonds, 1 ooze, and maybe some other random card. But im pretty sure thats not optimal.

That doesn't look so bad. I would cut 2 Mox Diamonds, 1 Loam (as long as you play some Cycle-Lands you should keep at least one in after Sideboarding), 1 Ooze and 1 Maze. Most of the other cards are actually not bad in the matchup and would just be replaced by other cards, that might be worse in some situations. With my current Sideboard I would add 2 Thoughtseize, 1 Garruk, 1 Chandra and 1 Rec. Sage.

I can see myself playing one Slaughter Games in the Sideboard, but thats it, not two. It is slow against Combo, gets stuck in your hand when you have a Gaddock out, which is one of your early goals in a combo-matchup und doesn't wreck Miracles any more, thanks to three different win-conditions (Jace,Entreat,Mentor)

If you want to, we can talk in Prague on Friday and discuss some card choices ;)



Although I was never a fan of playing with 61 cards(stigma more than anything else) I never found a viable solution when playing with the combo. Since we use knight, loam, GSZ, I think it should not be a problem. The other option is to cut a land and play 26 lands. Do you think it messes the manbase too much?


Maze, Stage, Depths, 4 Wastelands with only 26 Lands seems too ambitious, sorry :D



I think I had some subpar sideboarding, like keeping in Chalices and bringing in the Swords against Delver. I got a Chalice down fine...and then drew two Swords.


That was just a small sample size. Usually if you resolve Chalice on an empty board against Delver you should be in good shape, even when you draw some Swords. Once they deal with the Chalice to deploy their threats, you are ready with your Swords ;)


Edit: Just wondering, has there been any consideration in replacing Swords to Plowshares with Path to Exile in the board? I feel that in the current meta, hardly anybody plays basics so the drawback for Path wouldn't be as bad? Also, I have been thinking of replacing one Wasteland with a Ghost Quarter. It would be nice to have the ability to kill basics in grindy matchups since that would put additional pressure on the opponent.

4c Loam is usually winning by a lot. That means that we have full control over the game or have giant Knights. They don't really care if your opponent is on 17 or 21.
Path would also be really really bad against Shardless and Elves and Death and Taxes. You cant really Path their turn one creatures, mainly Deathrite Shaman.
Swords can also gain you some life against Burn, give you more breathing room for your Dark Confidants. And the most important thing: You can bring back Punishing Fire with your Swords.



Another topic:
For everyone playing Toxic Deluge: Some suggested Pyroclasm earlier in this thread and I think this is just the better choice. It comes down a turn earlier and doesn't cost you life.

[rocco94]

3-4 Swords to Plowshares

I'm trying this new kind of side and i like it a lot, but maybe 4 swords isn't too much? For example i was testing against team america and a lot of time it remains in my hand because i can't cast it

Anyway i'm going to test DD Maindeck with 61 cards, crop rotation and tabernacle in side, when should i side the last one?

i can't wait to play this new brew in Prague ;)

[schniggaz]

I'm trying this new kind of side and i like it a lot, but maybe 4 swords isn't too much? For example i was testing against team america and a lot of time it remains in my hand because i can't cast it

Anyway i'm going to test DD Maindeck with 61 cards, crop rotation and tabernacle in side, when should i side the last one?

i can't wait to play this new brew in Prague ;)


Three is probably the right number, you are correct ;)

I am not so sure about Tabernacle any more, I can't think of too many matchups where I really want it. First one is against Young Pyromancer, but a Pyroclasm also does work here. Against Eldrazi it can be good, but also really bad if they draw enough lands, City and Tomb pay for two creatures.
Furthermore I want to find a build that everyone can play at a GP and Tabernacle definitely breaks this rule. The price on this card is unreasonable. I know it is Legacy and we are trying to find the perfect build for the decks, but...... No, paying 600 Dollars for a card can never be correct.

[Oxide]

Just came back from my local shop.

Went 5-1 Matchups was:

Storm 2-0
Elfball 1-2 This is the guy who made top 8 in a MKM series with a 78 card main deck. well today he played 111 cards main deck! and managed to play Natural order on turn 3 in both game 2 and 3....guess that just happend lol.
Deaths shadow 2-0
high tide 2-1
Reanimator 2-1
4c delver 2-1

Main deck was solid, i would not change a single card, and i think its okay to play 61.

Sideboard was aight, Crop rotation into bojuka bog saved me a loss against Reanimator, and the plows did well against both 4c delver and deaths shadow.

Im not so sure about tabernacle tho, with 3 plows, we play so much removal that i really dont think we need it, and i allready play the depths combo in main deck, so i really dont want any more non mana producing lands after board.

Chandra is gonna stay for abit, mainly because i really really really wanna try and get her into play against miracles :P

And a last thing, as you guys can see, i dont play any cycle lands, it was my friend who came up with the idea since he thought that they allways underperformed. And i must say i agree, in my current list i replaced the 3 cycle lands with 1 urborg, 1 stage and 1 depths, and it was amazing tonight.

Me and my Loam pal would defiently be up for a meet up on friday and talk sideboard Niklas!

Oxide.

[Claymore]

I've played Tabernacle as a target for Delver, Elves, Taxes, and Belcher. Mostly it's been effective against Delver. I don't think it's optimal but it is fetachable and allows the deck to shut down Delver's progress and crawl back with crippling Waste locks. I think this gets stronger with a Crop Rotation board.

It hasn't been fast enough to do much against Eldrazi, but it can slow them down as a pseudo Port.

I like Toxic Deluge, so many times Deluge needed to resolve or I was dead regardless of the life payment. Often when facing down a Delver, Angler, and Shamans. Pyroclasm is certainly worth a shot.

[Darkness]

How is the Aggro Loam vs Eldrazi MU?

[schniggaz]

How is the Aggro Loam vs Eldrazi MU?

Game 1 is not that great. If you happen to draw the wrong part of your deck you are about to lose Game 1. Knight of the Reliquary is your way to victory here. She is just bigger than all the Eldrazis and they don't have an answer for it + she tutors for Maze of Ith.

Game 2+3 are really good. Swords to Plowshares + Thoughtseize help a lot. You also have some fast mana, running Wastelands, bigger Threats (Knight of the Reliquary) and a lot of Removal (Decay for Jitte, Mimic, Endless One and Matter Reshaper; Swords, Thoughtseizes, Maze of Ith and Liliana for their bigger Creatures and some Fires for the small ones)



Has anyone tried out Volcanic Fallout?

This card should be amazing against Delver, Pyromancer and Deathrite. It also has the upside of being instant-speed and sometimes killing a Planeswalker as well. Being a instant could be really good against other creature-combo decks like Infect and Elves.

Perhaps it could even be viable in the Miracles-Matchups, of course not a perfect answer for Jace or Mentor, but there are worse ones. But I am not sure about that.

The only real downside is the double red in the manacost :(



Regarding the manabase:
You might want to change the Taiga for a Plateau. You need more white Mana after Sideboarding since you will bring in Swords a lot. One green mana source is enough on the battlefield and it should be easy to still have it. That also means changing the Fetchlands to 2 Woodeds,2 Windswept and 2 Verdants.

[benjiman13]

First time writing on this thread, I am a Lands player looking for new challenge!
What do you think about the strength/weakness of aggro loam regarding the metagame? What's the most difficult deck to face?

[useL]

Regarding the manabase:
You might want to change the Taiga for a Plateau. You need more white Mana after Sideboarding since you will bring in Swords a lot. One green mana source is enough on the battlefield and it should be easy to still have it. That also means changing the Fetchlands to 2 Woodeds,2 Windswept and 2 Verdants.

Isn't it viable to play a Horizon Canopy instead of one of the cycles or similar? Kinda always liked that card and brings white to the table.

[schniggaz]

Isn't it viable to play a Horizon Canopy instead of one of the cycles or similar? Kinda always liked that card and brings white to the table.


Sounds reasonable.

Time to figure out a manabase for a 61 card build with 27 lands, Dark Depths and Maze.

4 Wastelands
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Maze of Ith
1 Thespian Stage
1 Dark Depths
1 Karakas
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
6 Fetchies
1 Forest
1 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah

What else do we need?
2 Red sources (Badlands, Taiga, Plateau)
2 Cycle Lands (Barren Moor, Tranquil Thicket, Horizon Canopy)
1 more black source (2nd Bayou, Urborg)

With two lands that do not make mana and Horizon Canopy dealing damage, Urborg could be quite nice.

My suggestion is:
1 Barren Moor
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoths
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Badlands
1 Taiga

I would like to have one more Land that can be sacced to Knight, but you can't have it all..


@benjiman13:

Bad matchups are probably SneakShow and Burn. All the others matchups feel at least even. You have the perfect tools to fight all the other decks. That is why I think the Deck is so well positioned and underplayed right now. But of course that is just my opinion and others may think that they actually have a good matchup against 4c Loam

[Bobmans]

Sounds reasonable.

Time to figure out a manabase for a 61 card build with 27 lands, Dark Depths and Maze.

4 Wastelands
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Maze of Ith
1 Thespian Stage
1 Dark Depths
1 Karakas
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
6 Fetchies
1 Forest
1 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah

What else do we need?
2 Red sources (Badlands, Taiga, Plateau)
2 Cycle Lands (Barren Moor, Tranquil Thicket, Horizon Canopy)
1 more black source (2nd Bayou, Urborg)

With two lands that do not make mana and Horizon Canopy dealing damage, Urborg could be quite nice.

My suggestion is:
1 Barren Moor
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoths
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Badlands
1 Taiga

I would like to have one more Land that can be sacced to Knight, but you can't have it all..



Man, this deck is awesome; that said, i have been running the following manabase since i am playing this deck and have very little problems with it. Difference is 5 fetch. So this gives the extra land to sac for kotr.

2 bayou
1 savannah
1 taiga
1 scrubland
1 badlands
1 forest
1 maze
1 karakas
1 stage
1 depths
1 urborg
1 barren moor
1 horizon canopy
4 verdant catacombs
1 windswept heath
4 wasteland
3 grove
1 dryad arbor

[Griselpuff]

Elves, Delver and D&T are probably pretty even. Bad match-ups I would also include Belcher, Nic Fit and Painter. Those are all fringe decks but gaining popularity.

One comment though, I think the DD combo is a pretty good way to steal a win against the above decks. I don't think Urborg is worth a slot though, it's a liability against Lands and Eye of Ugin and only helps one of our lands.

[Bobmans]

One comment though, I think the DD combo is a pretty good way to steal a win against the above decks. I don't think Urborg is worth a slot though, it's a liability against Lands and Eye of Ugin and only helps one of our lands.

Well, in exactly those situations i have been sitting on Urborg in my hand (Storm and Eldrazi), but drawing into Mox i just used it to discard the Urborg. I found situations where i needed it to make enough colors for Liliana more valuable.

Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-G900F met Tapatalk

[Pilhas]

Tested yesterday against Shardless all day. Only post side games. Since I only run stage main, I go to 27 lands post board.

boarded out:
4 chalice
2 mox
1 teeg

boarded in:
3 Swords(awesome)
crop(awesome)
dark depths(awesome)
rec sage(meh), still think it is better than a 1of chalice/3rd mox
garruk(awesome)

- Swords are awesome
- I think with the swords, we are allright with 3 decays main(as you previously told me niklas)
- combo is awesome in the matchup
- we can't go below 2 loams or our lilianas get way worse(as you previously told me niklas)
- I am only running 1 cycling(thicket), the other swapped for a basic swamp. Sometimes I miss the cycling land, but the swamp is also pretty good.
- I really need to change the mana config for the swords, missed white too many times.
- got killed by standard allstar special tech To the Slaughter way too many times(1of from sideboard)

[rlesko]

Tested yesterday against Shardless all day. Only post side games. Since I only run stage main, I go to 27 lands post board.

boarded out:
4 chalice
2 mox
1 teeg

boarded in:
3 Swords(awesome)
crop(awesome)
dark depths(awesome)
rec sage(meh), still think it is better than a 1of chalice/3rd mox
garruk(awesome)

- Swords are awesome
- I think with the swords, we are allright with 3 decays main(as you previously told me niklas)
- combo is awesome in the matchup
- we can't go below 2 loams or our lilianas get way worse(as you previously told me niklas)
- I am only running 1 cycling(thicket), the other swapped for a basic swamp. Sometimes I miss the cycling land, but the swamp is also pretty good.
- I really need to change the mana config for the swords, missed white too many times.
- got killed by standard allstar special tech To the Slaughter way too many times(1of from sideboard)

To the slaughter seems like hot tech, not going to lie, I would dread having that cast against me.

I have already been running 27 lands and combo main for some time, so I will swap a tranquil thicket for a horizon canopy, and possibly plateau for taiga to accomodate the swords to plowshares in the sideboard. Has anyone considered running tarmogoyf again with Eldrazi around? He also battles quite favorably with gurmag angler in our deck as well.

[Seraphix]

Tested yesterday against Shardless all day. Only post side games. Since I only run stage main, I go to 27 lands post board.

...

rec sage(meh), still think it is better than a 1of chalice/3rd mox

...



You're in the market for any 2-for-1 you can get your hands on in the Shardless matchup, so I'd say Goblin Piker + Disenchant is just the ticket. Its also nice to have a way of fighting over library that isn't Decay.


To the slaughter seems like hot tech, not going to lie, I would dread having that cast against me.

I have already been running 27 lands and combo main for some time, so I will swap a tranquil thicket for a horizon canopy, and possibly plateau for taiga to accomodate the swords to plowshares in the sideboard. Has anyone considered running tarmogoyf again with Eldrazi around? He also battles quite favorably with gurmag angler in our deck as well.

I don't think I've ever played Aggro Loam without Tarmogoyf-he's been great the whole time. With Eldrazi running around now he's concretely more relevant though. Space can be an issue for him depending what else you have going on, unless you play 61.

[Djehuti]

First time writing on this thread, I am a Lands player looking for new challenge!
What do you think about the strength/weakness of aggro loam regarding the metagame? What's the most difficult deck to face?

Nice, I also frequently switch between lands and 4c loam.

Strengths:
-has game against all current decks to beat
-Feels very good against miracles (most noticeable difference from playing lands)

weaknesses:
-bad belcher, burn, and TES matchups.
-with eldrazi being tier 1, many players are way more prepared for chalice than before
-more of a comparison to lands: your miracles and combo matchups are bolstered at the cost of your fair matchups

most difficult deck to face:
if you mean which matchups are hardest to win, the T1 combo decks are horrific to play against but there's nothing testing your skill in those matchups (besides proper sideboarding). just mulligan to hate pieces and hold on for dear life. If you mean what matchup tests your skill with the deck the most, i think the delver, shardless, and D&T matchups are pretty thrilling. Tight play feels particularly rewarding here.

[benjiman13]

Nice, I also frequently switch between lands and 4c loam.

Strengths:
-has game against all current decks to beat
-Feels very good against miracles (most noticeable difference from playing lands)

weaknesses:
-bad belcher, burn, and TES matchups.
-with eldrazi being tier 1, many players are way more prepared for chalice than before
-more of a comparison to lands: your miracles and combo matchups are bolstered at the cost of your fair matchups

most difficult deck to face:
if you mean which matchups are hardest to win, the T1 combo decks are horrific to play against but there's nothing testing your skill in those matchups (besides proper sideboarding). just mulligan to hate pieces and hold on for dear life. If you mean what matchup tests your skill with the deck the most, i think the delver, shardless, and D&T matchups are pretty thrilling. Tight play feels particularly rewarding here.

Thank you for your answer! I think that Lands are sometime too much linear... that's why I want to change a little! That's true that miracle is quite hard (even with the black splash) and ANT is pretty unwinnable (vs a good player).

In the grindy match up like D&T or Shardless, how do you sb?
I am surprised, I thought that 4c loam was handling pretty easily the delver decks...?

[rlesko]

Thank you for your answer! I think that Lands are sometime too much linear... that's why I want to change a little! That's true that miracle is quite hard (even with the black splash) and ANT is pretty unwinnable (vs a good player).

In the grindy match up like D&T or Shardless, how do you sb?
I am surprised, I thought that 4c loam was handling pretty easily the delver decks...?

It is handling delver decks relatively "easy". But the nature of delver decks is they are very even vs the field. Additionally, they will bring in answers to chalice of the void and cards like submerge so doesn't mean we can't also bring in cards to increase our percentages vs them.

[Djehuti]

Thank you for your answer! I think that Lands are sometime too much linear... that's why I want to change a little! That's true that miracle is quite hard (even with the black splash) and ANT is pretty unwinnable (vs a good player).

In the grindy match up like D&T or Shardless, how do you sb?
I am surprised, I thought that 4c loam was handling pretty easily the delver decks...?


I haven't tried Niklas' list yet, so i can't speak on sideboarding choices with that one in particular but i suspect his list is better and ill be giving it a run once i find a 3rd lilliana.
Based on my current list (http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/16-05-16-4-color-loam/), id board like this:

D&T: expect graveyard hate. flicker wisps and phyrexian revokers make moxes unreliable. i try not to lean too hard on the graveyard post board.
-4 chalice of the void
-1 Gaddock Teeg
-1 Scavenging ooze
-2 Mox diamond
-1 Life From The Loam

+1 Golgari charm
+1 Toxic Deluge
+2 Thoughtseize
+1 Reclamation sage
+2 Dread of Night (personal preference
+1 Containment priest (turns off aether vial, be careful about your own dryad arbor though)
+1 Garruk Relentless (not the best in this matchup, but each time i've played it against D&T, my opponents have told me the card is scary from their perspective)

Shardless Bug:
-4 chalice of the void
-1 Liliana (maybe there's a better cut. good on an empty board, not so good when they have ancestral to recover and you don't. hopefully you find a loam to pad your hand.)

+1 Garruk relentless (another removal spell for deathrite and deathtouch tokens can chump goyfs for days, also out of abrupt decay range makes this particularly good.)
+2 Thoughseize
+1 toxic deluge
+1 reclamation sage (not great but can take an agent out on the way in, and block for a turn while you stabilize)

[Pilhas]

Well no byes for me :(

Played a small GPT today(9 people, 5 rounds + top4). The scene is small but everyone is practicing all day(everyday) for the GP, so I knew it would be a tough one.

List:

1x Forest
1x Swamp
1x Badlands
1x Savannah
1x Scrubland
1x Taiga
1x Bayou
1x Dryad Arbor
3x Grove of the Burnwillows
1x Karakas
1x Maze of Ith
1x Barren Moor
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Thespian's Stage
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Wasteland
2x Windswept Heath
4x Dark Confidant
1x Deathrite Shaman
1x Gaddock Teeg
4x Knight of the Reliquary
1x Scavenging Ooze
3x Abrupt Decay
3x Punishing Fire
2x Green Sun's Zenith
2x Life from the Loam
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Mox Diamond
2x Sylvan Library
3x Liliana of the Veil


Sideboard

1x Bojuka Bog
1x Crop Rotation
1x Dark Depths
2x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Garruk Relentless Flip
2x Golgari Charm
1x Reclamation Sage
3x Swords to Plowshares
1x Sulfur Elemental
2x Thoughtseize


Round 1: Shardless BUG (2-1)
Out: 4 Chalice, 2 Mox, 1 Teeg
In: 3 Swords, 1 Dark Depths, 1 Crop Rotation, 1 Reclamation Sage, 1 Garruk
Notes: Tested this matchup against same guy for 2 straight days, so we both knew the sideboard plans. I think we are pretty favoured

Round 2: Elves (2-1)
Out: (DRAW) 3 Lili, 2 Bob, 2 Loam, 1 Library, 1 Maze (PLAY) 2 Bob, 2 Loam, 2 Library, 1 Maze, 1 Ooze, 1 Decay
In: (DRAW) 3 Swords, 1 Dark Depths, 1 Crop Rotation, 2 Charm, 2 Canonist (PLAY) 3 Swords, 1 Dark Depths, 1 Crop Rotation, 2 Charm, 2 Canonist
Notes: Lost 2nd game due to trying to squeeze value from a Charm and got killed by Cradle->NO->Progenitus

Round 3: RUG Delver (2-1)
Out: 1 Teeg, 1 Arbor, 2 GSZ
In: 3 Swords, 1 Bog
Notes: Mongoose is a bitch, I like the GSZ but I think it is the only possible cut. Not sure though

Round 4: Grixis Delver (0-2)
Out: 3 Lili, 1 Loam, 1 Teeg, 1 Stage
In: 3 Swords, 1 Bog, 2 Charm
Notes: He usually plays RUG, but lately was playing BUG. So he got me with the Grixis.
Always plays stifle and won him both games, 1 had no chance, the other I found a way after the game...

Round 5: Miracles (ID)

TOP 4: R3,R4 and R5 opp. I got best standing so I play first every round.
Grixis Delver (2-1)
Out: 3 Lili, 1 Loam, 1 Teeg, 1 Stage
In: 3 Swords, 1 Bog, 2 Charm
Notes: Lost first round, but 2 early chalice in game 2 and 3 let me breath and win the games. On the Draw(last game) I brought thespian and Depths instead of Bog.
Always played around submerge which could have won him the game.

FINAL Miracles (1-2)
Notes: I don't have the sideboard plans from this game, buit I sideboarded differently on the play/draw. After checking his list before the games, he packed all the hate against Loam.
From the Ashes, Ruination, Surgical, Rest in Peace, 2 Wear and Tear, Council Judgement(+1 in main), Keranos.
Made a mistake where I play an early Teeg 3rd game which I should waited on.



About the list:
-Super happy with it.
-Canopy fixes the white mana a bit.
-missed the 2nd bayou a bit.
-Did not miss the Depths main.
-Stage is awesome even without the combo.
-Sulfur Elemental is the only card I am quite shakey.

No more magic for me till Thursday before the GP so find the techs for me :cool:

[juzamjimjams]

Hey guys, long time lurker first time poster.
Been on 4c loam for quite some time now and the biggest legacy event of the year in Australia is coming up soon.

This is my current configuration:

4x Knight of the reliquary
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Gaddock Teeg
4x Dark Confidant
4x Chalice of the void
2x Green sun’s zenith
2x Life from the loam
1x Sylvan library
3x Liliana of the veil
4x Abrupt Decay
3x Punishing Fire
4x Mox Diamond

4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Windswept Heath
3x Grove of the burnwillows
4x Wasteland
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Karakas
1x Barren Moor
1x Tranquil Thicket
1x Forest
1x Maze of Ith
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Dark Depths
1x Thespians Stage
1x Taiga
1x Badlands
2x Bayou
1x Savannah
1x Scrubland

SB

1 Arlinn Kord (fun of, will likely play garruk)
3 Swords to plowshares
1 Golgari Charm
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Thoughtseize
3 Leyline of the Void
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Thalia Guardian of Thraben



I am anticipating quite a bit of price of progress (UR delver and Burn), do you think that this warrants a second basic land?
I have also not updated this in quite some time, I am noticing some variations in terms of number of fetches, MD DRS, a second sylvan library and MD depths.

Other decks I am aware of that will be in some numbers:
UW stoneblade
Shardless BUG
Miracles

I have never really been a fan of a maindeck DRS, however I am also not entirely sure what match ups warrants this inclusion.

thanks in advance

[Pilhas]

Either is way to late and I can't count anymore or your deck only has 59 cards :smile:

If you expect price of progress I would suggest cutting a Bayou/cycling for a swamp.
Not sure but 3 cycling(counting canopy) might be too much.

Against shardless, miracles, and stoneblade, choke seems a fine option.

[DaDitka]

Hi all,

Very excited to see the work put in before the GPs.

Niklas (and others), a few quick questions about Deathrite:

1. In what situations do you search up DRS with GSZ?

2. In what matchups does DRS really shine?

My thoughts are:

1. If I'm under a Blood Moon, I would much rather search up a Rec. Sage if possible. Although, obviously nice to be able to get a DRS if stuck on two mana under the moon. Similarly, if I have a mox diamond on t1 there is usually a more impact full 2cc spell to play and you don't need the acceleration. If on the draw with no mox, usually I find I need to prioritize interaction over mana development.

2. I guess reanimator, BUG (little cheap interaction?), painter (Blood Moon), and maybe DNT/Imperial Taxes? It seems a liability against Miracles despite the fact they pack Blood Moon.

Finally, it seems to me that the DRS is the 61st card for a lot of the decks with 61. I agree that if you are going to 61 cards, it usually is because of a powerful one-of that is tutorable and adds options, so DRS fits that mold. But is it really necessary? Wouldn't it be better to just run 60 cards?

Looking forward to hearing all of your thoughts.

[apocolyps6]

Drs is not a silver bullet like the rest of the 1of green creatures. Instead he is just a high quality turn 1 play, and a jack of all trades. (incidental grave hate, reach, and life gain)

Imo T1 acceleration is super important to the deck (I've gotten the sense that others disagree with me tho). The deck has a bunch of ways to use extra mana, and a lot of the games I end up losing, I'm pinned on mana. DRS is both an accelerant when you want one, and a mana sink when you don't.

He also wins wasteland fights.

[schniggaz]

Drs is not a silver bullet like the rest of the 1of green creatures. Instead he is just a high quality turn 1 play, and a jack of all trades. (incidental grave hate, reach, and life gain)

Imo T1 acceleration is super important to the deck (I've gotten the sense that others disagree with me tho). The deck has a bunch of ways to use extra mana, and a lot of the games I end up losing, I'm pinned on mana. DRS is both an accelerant when you want one, and a mana sink when you don't.

He also wins wasteland fights.

+1

In Magic it is about card and mana advantage. We can generate card advantage pretty easily. DRS just helps to up the mana advantage spells in the deck. (in addition the card fixes your mana, can be a threat and gains you some life).

@Pilhas:
I would just put the Dark Depths Main, too. That frees a SB-Slot and just randomly wins you games. I would use this SB-Slot+Bog+Crop to bring back the three Leylines. Leylines have never been bad, I just switched them to Bog+Crop to have more room in the SB. But with DD-Combo Maindeck we don't need that many SB-Slots.

That brings me to the following SB right now:

3 Leyline of the Void
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Thoughtseize
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Golgari Charm

2 free Slots, one of them should at least be a sweeper

I am going to ask again: Did anyone consider Volcanic Fallout? It just looks so amazing against Grixis/4c Delver, that I would like to give it a try.

[btm10]

+1

In Magic it is about card and mana advantage. We can generate card advantage pretty easily. DRS just helps to up the mana advantage spells in the deck. (in addition the card fixes your mana, can be a threat and gains you some life).

@Pilhas:
I would just put the Dark Depths Main, too. That frees a SB-Slot and just randomly wins you games. I would use this SB-Slot+Bog+Crop to bring back the three Leylines. Leylines have never been bad, I just switched them to Bog+Crop to have more room in the SB. But with DD-Combo Maindeck we don't need that many SB-Slots.

That brings me to the following SB right now:

3 Leyline of the Void
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Thoughtseize
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Golgari Charm

2 free Slots, one of them should at least be a sweeper

I am going to ask again: Did anyone consider Volcanic Fallout? It just looks so amazing against Grixis/4c Delver, that I would like to give it a try.


I played with it for about a week, then everyone in my meta was off of Delver and Shardless for a bit. I like it a lot if you're running the "stock" set of red sources since that configuration is more red-heavy than your spells themselves are.

[apocolyps6]

Is delver a matchup that you are looking to improve? I can't get the local delver guys to test against me any more. Are they all just terrible?

I think I'm replacing my deluges with 2 clasm. Or a clasm/charm split.

My semi-informed opinion about Fallout is that the uncounterability should only matter against delver/merfolk. Delver's counters are super taxed by chalice, knight, etc so by the time you cast you Fallout they should be out of interaction. Given that you specifically like the uncounterability, maybe this is not your experience with this matchup.

Jund Charm is also instant speed and has some trinket text. Probably not worth looking into, but I figured I'd mention it.

Declaration in Stone is hard to evaluate but is sort-of a 2 mana M-Pulse. If we are doing our LD thing or have a clock the downside is not a big deal. The card might be trash against grindy decks tho.

[Pilhas]

I did not tested DD main and won't be able till the GP, so I will just go with what you guys find is best.

Volcanic Fallout seems good depending on mana configuration.
Playing with 3 groves+2 red sources should be enough. might be the cards I am searching for. It also helps kill jaces.

[schniggaz]

Is delver a matchup that you are looking to improve? I can't get the local delver guys to test against me any more. Are they all just terrible?

I think I'm replacing my deluges with 2 clasm. Or a clasm/charm split.

My semi-informed opinion about Fallout is that the uncounterability should only matter against delver/merfolk. Delver's counters are super taxed by chalice, knight, etc so by the time you cast you Fallout they should be out of interaction. Given that you specifically like the uncounterability, maybe this is not your experience with this matchup.

Jund Charm is also instant speed and has some trinket text. Probably not worth looking into, but I figured I'd mention it.

Declaration in Stone is hard to evaluate but is sort-of a 2 mana M-Pulse. If we are doing our LD thing or have a clock the downside is not a big deal. The card might be trash against grindy decks tho.


Well, I want sweepers in mainly three matchups: Delver, D&T and Elves.
Against Delver Golgari Charm doesn't kill Delver and Deathrite, Deluge is dangerous against soft counters. Pyroclasm seems good here, but Fallout being uncounterable is perfect.
Against Death and Taxes Pyroclasm and Golgari Charm are probably the best options. The difference between 2 and 3 mana can be huge here.
Against Elves having a spell that deals two damage is important to kill Nettle Sentinel and Deathrite Shaman as well. Having a Instant-speed sweeper is also great here to mess with their Wirewood Symbiotes and Quirion Ranger - bounce abilities.

For me it really close between Pyroclasm and Fallout.

I might also consider Volcanic Fallout against Miracles and Shardless. Both play Planeswalker you can hit with Fallout while also being ok against Mentor and against Shardless Agent, Baleful Strix and Deathrite. Being uncounterable is obviously great here.

[Griselpuff]

We don't really have that many cards to take out against Delver. Fwiw deluge for 2 is only two life and having it at least gives you the option to take out bigger guys. Personally I'm liking Sulfur Elemental because it's like a sweeper for Mentor and DnT

[iostream]

Tabernacle seems like it should be an option as well. I would even consider running multiple copies in the 75.

[rlesko]

If anyone cares to watch some replay of the deck, I was on South Florida Magic twitch stream twice today. Beat Grixis control 2-0 then lost to Sneak and Show 0-2. Really missed having the containment priest out of my board. I think I am going to go back to 2 Thalias, 1 Priest. Ethersworn seems to only be that great in storm, and that MU is good anyways with thalia, teeg, and chalice. I'll post back with my SB and link to stream, just in a bit of a rush right now.

[juzamjimjams]

Tabernacle seems like it should be an option as well. I would even consider running multiple copies in the 75.


Are there any match ups other than delver you like bringing tabernacle in?
It may just be a meta thing but it's always felt pretty lack luster for me.

[mike1987]

What do you guys think of playing 1 Eternal witness in the main, substituting it for 1 Library.

I often find her very versatile in getting back removals or threats, even wasteland. Of course she is can be tutored by GSZ as well :tongue:

[Nocley]

What do you guys think of playing 1 Eternal witness in the main, substituting it for 1 Library.

I often find her very versatile in getting back removals or threats, even wasteland. Of course she is can be tutored by GSZ as well :tongue:


I was just thinking about that on my way home, after losing a very close match to Grixis Delver because of just running out/milling important cards. Nothing to say that I'd end up not milling her too, but I actually like her a lot over the 3rd loam (Assuming schniggaz's MD from here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?16436-Deck-Aggro-Loam&p=950687&viewfull=1#post950687)).

StP's are amazing. I can't go away from them, they shore up so many random matchups that our other removal just doesn't kill. Not sold on the Crop Rotation/Tabernacle/Bog over the 3 Leylines, but I'll have to play some more to tell. Chandra was great, won me a match against Painter by actually being able to close out so quickly (and cast off their blood moon helped). Also helped carry me from awful, awfully sloppy play. There's a video available of me playing at Card Kingdom's stream tonight (round 2) vs Nic Fit, but that Game 2 was neither of us wanting to win.

Really going to consider the Volcanic Fallout mentioned here, I really can't remember the last time I've cast golgari charm for anything other than -1/-1, and I think hitting flipped delvers and DRS, at instant speed is even more important than being uncounterable (but uncounterable helps). With that said, I do want to squeeze one more red source in to cast it a bit more often. The sorcery speed makes Clasm feel unplayable to me.

[mike1987]

I was just thinking about that on my way home, after losing a very close match to Grixis Delver because of just running out/milling important cards. Nothing to say that I'd end up not milling her too, but I actually like her a lot over the 3rd loam (Assuming schniggaz's MD from here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?16436-Deck-Aggro-Loam&p=950687&viewfull=1#post950687)).

StP's are amazing. I can't go away from them, they shore up so many random matchups that our other removal just doesn't kill. Not sold on the Crop Rotation/Tabernacle/Bog over the 3 Leylines, but I'll have to play some more to tell. Chandra was great, won me a match against Painter by actually being able to close out so quickly (and cast off their blood moon helped). Also helped carry me from awful, awfully sloppy play. There's a video available of me playing at Card Kingdom's stream tonight (round 2) vs Nic Fit, but that Game 2 was neither of us wanting to win.

Really going to consider the Volcanic Fallout mentioned here, I really can't remember the last time I've cast golgari charm for anything other than -1/-1, and I think hitting flipped delvers and DRS, at instant speed is even more important than being uncounterable (but uncounterable helps). With that said, I do want to squeeze one more red source in to cast it a bit more often. The sorcery speed makes Clasm feel unplayable to me.


I can see your point in trying out Volcanic Fallout but correct me if i am wrong, the main point of having Golgari Charm is also to deal with opposing True Name Nemesis right? Which volcanic fallout would not be able to kill. Not sure if it matters much but yea.

[rlesko]

If I was going to play E Witness I would also play Volrath's Stronghold. I've never tested the former idea, but the latter idea is often too cute to be effective.

[Claymore]

Golgari Charm runs double duty to hit Rest in Peace, Blood Moon, and occasionally Counterbalance. That's why I run it as one of my sweepers.

[rlesko]

I thought pyroclasm is more of a substitute for toxic deluge, and not golgari charm? For the above stated reasons I would not cut Charm. Abrupt decays are very taxed post board to take care of graveyard hate.

[Aberosh1819]

I thought pyroclasm is more of a substitute for toxic deluge, and not golgari charm? For the above stated reasons I would not cut Charm. Abrupt decays are very taxed post board to take care of graveyard hate.

That is my take as well. I'm looking at the following board, and working through my plans against it:

1x Chandra, Flamecaller
1x Garruk Relentless
1x Reclamation Sage
1x Golgari Charm
1x Pyroclasm
2x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Thoughtseize
3x Leyline of the Void
3x Swords to Plowshares

I'm not 100% on the board yet, but it looks right to me for now.

Also, to another post above and assuming a "standard" list, what are folks taking out against Delver? I really like the idea of bringing in a Pyroclasm and a few Swords, but have no interest in removing the Chalices. Skip the swords against what should already be a positive match-up, and do a swap of a Teeg for a Pyroclasm?

[schniggaz]

That looks like one of my possible SB for Prague.
You call it only Delver, but there are different Delver Decks around where you should board differently. Please just post a link (mtgpulse or somewhere else) with the Delver Decks you are thinking of ;)

[Nocley]

My delver boarding is typically based around what type. I trim down my curve since our 3 drops are quite slow against their denial, and don't usually offer big advantages (even more so for the lists running Abrupt Decay). Teeg is great for shutting down their FoWs (and rarer, submerge)/being removal bait, so I don't cut him in that spot.

Assuming Grixis (which is the most common):
+ 2-3 StP , + Sweepers
- Karakas
- 1-2 Knights
- 1 Lily

For the other variants, its usually just the swords that come in (though I havent played against any other variants since the StP board plan), and probably keeping the Lilys (unless I see YP, which goes back to Sweepers in place of Lilys.

I could just be completely incorrect, I've gone back and forth with my board plans, but I've heard an argument for every card in our MD needing to be kept in against them.

Edit: I also shouldn't go off memory, since I typically want the Tabernacle/Bog/Crop Rotation Package when I'm running that in my board. I don't like bringing in Leylines if that's our Grave Hate. So that works for the above (and your given SB), but if I'm bringing in the other 3 I'll typically stay on only 2 StP, boarding out a second Lily.

[btm10]

Also, to another post above and assuming a "standard" list, what are folks taking out against Delver? I really like the idea of bringing in a Pyroclasm and a few Swords, but have no interest in removing the Chalices. Skip the swords against what should already be a positive match-up, and do a swap of a Teeg for a Pyroclasm?

I'd cut at least some Chalices against BUG Delver, especially if they're on the Hymn plan, since they'll likely board into a deck that strongly resembles Shardless rather than a conventional Delver deck. Plow would definitely be good in that situation, as is Garruk Relentless. Pyroclasm and Volcanic Fallout are fine, but not nearly as strong as they are against Grixis, where Chalice is also stronger. As for whether it's worth spending a slot to help Delver matchups, I think it's a solid plan if we aren't hurting other matchups in the process. My experience is that we're 55/45 to 60/40 favorites in those matchups, and they represent a huge chunk of the field in any large tournament. The trade-offs between Pyroclasm/Fallout and Golgari Charm are the ability to remove enchantments and the ability to kill True-Name Nemesis vs. killing more nonsense out of Elves and D&T. Fallout is particularly attractive against Mentor since even if your opponent can save Mentor, it's likely to kill all of the Monks and let Mentor be finished off by Punishing Fire on your own turn. Which is correct probably depends on how the rest of your removal is set up.

I've had a 1-of Kolaghan's Command in my 75 since I picked the deck up, and have considered adding a second copy on a number of occasions. It's solid in a number of matchups, but it's an absolute beating against any deck with Stoneforge Mystic, especially D&T, and against Shardless, where it's a cheaper, one-sided, instant speed Barter in Blood most of the time. Has anyone else tried it?

[Pilhas]

My delver boarding is typically based around what type. I trim down my curve since our 3 drops are quite slow against their denial, and don't usually offer big advantages (even more so for the lists running Abrupt Decay). Teeg is great for shutting down their FoWs (and rarer, submerge)/being removal bait, so I don't cut him in that spot.

Assuming Grixis (which is the most common):
+ 2-3 StP , + Sweepers
- Karakas
- 1-2 Knights
- 1 Lily

For the other variants, its usually just the swords that come in (though I havent played against any other variants since the StP board plan), and probably keeping the Lilys (unless I see YP, which goes back to Sweepers in place of Lilys.

I could just be completely incorrect, I've gone back and forth with my board plans, but I've heard an argument for every card in our MD needing to be kept in against them.

Edit: I also shouldn't go off memory, since I typically want the Tabernacle/Bog/Crop Rotation Package when I'm running that in my board. I don't like bringing in Leylines if that's our Grave Hate. So that works for the above (and your given SB), but if I'm bringing in the other 3 I'll typically stay on only 2 StP, boarding out a second Lily.

I can't see how it is correct to trim knights against delver. If you resolve one, you usually get so far ahead.
I board all Lilis out against Grixis+teeg and a land for 3 swords and 2 sweeperd(usually charms).
against rug I just take teeg, arbor and 2 GSZ(really not sure on this one) for 3 swords and a sweeper(charms does not count)/bog
Against bug I still don't know what to cut, got to think about it, but I bring in the 3 swords for sure, and probably the sweeper

What are your plans against S&S? Feeling doubtful with the sideboard.

[Aberosh1819]

That looks like one of my possible SB for Prague.
You call it only Delver, but there are different Delver Decks around where you should board differently. Please just post a link (mtgpulse or somewhere else) with the Delver Decks you are thinking of ;)

Point well taken, and yes, I absolutely took what you said to heart, and dropped in a Pyroclasm (testing) from the continued discussion here.

I'm mostly thinking about RUG delver for some reason, but should also be thinking about Grixis and UR. Someone else mentioned BUG. Methinks I am a bit behind the times heading into Columbus!


I can't see how it is correct to trim knights against delver. If you resolve one, you usually get so far ahead.
I board all Lilis out against Grixis+teeg and a land for 3 swords and 2 sweeperd(usually charms).
against rug I just take teeg, arbor and 2 GSZ(really not sure on this one) for 3 swords and a sweeper(charms does not count)/bog
Against bug I still don't know what to cut, got to think about it, but I bring in the 3 swords for sure, and probably the sweeper

What are your plans against S&S? Feeling doubtful with the sideboard.

I'm really at a loss against S&S. Given the board above being useful against a good number of decks in the meta, and that it is so similar to the rest of what I am seeing, is our general plan to just disrupt via Thoughtseize? Should additional consideration be given to using Thalia in place of Ethersworn? This is something I've been mulling this past week as being useful against many of the same decks while being a bit broader. This is also part of what caused me pain in removing Containment Priest.

[btm10]

Point well taken, and yes, I absolutely took what you said to heart, and dropped in a Pyroclasm (testing) from the continued discussion here.

I'm mostly thinking about RUG delver for some reason, but should also be thinking about Grixis and UR. Someone else mentioned BUG. Methinks I am a bit behind the times heading into Columbus!



I'm really at a loss against S&S. Given the board above being useful against a good number of decks in the meta, and that it is so similar to the rest of what I am seeing, is our general plan to just disrupt via Thoughtseize? Should additional consideration be given to using Thalia in place of Ethersworn? This is something I've been mulling this past week as being useful against many of the same decks while being a bit broader. This is also part of what caused me pain in removing Containment Priest.

I shaved my Cannonist for a second Priest, so it's a 2/2 Priest/Thalia split. I'm not thrilled with that matchup either, and it's become my main hangup with regard to committing to Loam.

[ironclad8690]

Guys who have Swords to Plowshares in their sideboards:

Do you just cut the Chalices for this?

[btm10]

Guys who have Swords to Plowshares in their sideboards:

Do you just cut the Chalices for this?

So far, yes, except against Infect, where I cut my Deluge and Gaddock Teeg for 2 Swords.

[ironclad8690]

Check it out guys, Naya Loam:

4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze

4 Punishing Fire
1 Council's Judgment
2 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Life from the Loam
2 Sylvan Library

1 Garruk Relentless
1 Arlinn Kord
1 Xenagos, the Reveler

1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice of the Void

2 Savannah
2 Taiga
1 Plateau
1 Forest
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Tranquil Thicket
1 Forgotten Cave
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
4 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Horizon Canopy

Sideboard
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Containment Priest
1 Choke
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Crop Rotation
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Holy Light
1 Chandra, Flamecaller

It's cool because it's Naya :cool:

Probably worse than 4c though :(

[btm10]

I dunno, Xenagos is pretty boss. I tried playing him in RUG Landstill when Cruise was legal and most decks of that era couldn't beat him.

[ironclad8690]

Yes, I tried him in 4c cascade and he was really good vs Miracles, and I just seem to face miracles half the time.

[btm10]

Then clearly the answer is more Planeswalkers.

[useL]

Guys who have Swords to Plowshares in their sideboards:

Do you just cut the Chalices for this?

I bring in the swords against decks where chalice is somewhat bad. Played a tournament recently and this is what I boarded against goblins (sorry about the glare)

http://i.imgur.com/8W9XuIM.jpg

Here is against Sneak and Show (lackluster, should have been thalia instead of canonist):

http://i.imgur.com/6bm2BtH.jpg?1


This is against miracles:

http://i.imgur.com/eyN7fiO.jpg?1http://i.imgur.com/eyN7fiO.jpg?1

I have more pictures and thoughts, will share if you guys are interested. The list I played is here:

http://i.imgur.com/Vit1xZU.png


Going to Prague if anyone is interested in grinding/sideboard-testing on thursday/friday.

Oh and changes for now is:

-1 Crop Rotation
-1 Bojuka Bog
-2 Ethersworn Canonist

+2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
+3 Leyline of the Void

Need to either cut something from the board (Pyroclasm is hanging loose) or add a Deathrite Shaman to the main to compensate.

[Pilhas]

Are you changing the canonists for the thalias due to S&Sand Miracles?
Overall I think I prefer canonists due to the elves mu.

3 pfire 4 decay and 3 swords is probably too much no?
i would change 1 decay for the shaman(it smooths out the mana)

I will be there friday, will probably try and steal some byes also.

[schniggaz]

Some of you were a bit concerned about the SneakShow matchup and they are right about this. So I decided to slightly modify the SB with SneakShow in my mind. I tried to make a small SB guide as well. It is probably not perfect, but the configurations after sideboarding are looking reasonable to me.

4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Dark Confidant
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Deathrite Shaman

1 Sylvan Library
3 Life from the Loam
2 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Liliana of the Veil

3 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire

4 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice of the Void

1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Wasteland
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Barren Moor
1 Forest
1 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Badlands
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoths
1 Thespian Stage
1 Dark Depths

Sideboard

1 Reclamation Sage
1 Golgari Charm
1 Garruk Relentless
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Thoughtseize
1 Crop Rotation
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Containment Priest
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Volcanic Fallout
1 Slaughter Games




Manaless Dredge
+3 Swords to Plowshares
+2 Thoughtseize
+1 Crop Rotation
+1 Bojuka Bog
+1 Containment Priest
+1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
+1 Volcanic Fallout
+1 Slaughter Games
-3 Liliana of the Veil
-4 Chalice of the Void
-3 Abrupt Decay
-1 Maze of Ith

ElvesOTD
+1 Golgari Charm
+3 Swords to Plowshares
+2 Thoughtseize
+1 Containment Priest
+1 Ethersworn Canonist
+1 Volcanic Fallout
+1 Crop Rotation
-3 Liliana of the Veil
-1 Scavenging Ooze
-1 Maze of Ith
-3 Life from the Loam
-1 Sylvan Library
-1 Dark Confidant

ElvesOTP
+1 Golgari Charm
+3 Swords to Plowshares
+2 Thoughtseize
+1 Containment Priest
+1 Ethersworn Canonist
+1 Volcanic Fallout
+1 Crop Rotation
-1 Scavenging Ooze
-1 Maze of Ith
-1 Deathrite Shaman
-3 Life from the Loam
-1 Sylvan Library
-2 Dark Confidant
-1 Abrupt Decay

Lands

+1 Reclamation Sage
+3 Swords to Plowshares
+1 Crop Rotation
+1 Bojuka Bog
+1 Slaughter Games
-1 Dark Depths
-1 Gaddock Teeg
-3 Punishing Fire
-2 Chalice of the Void


SneakShow
+1 Slaughter Games
+1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
+1 Containment Priest
+1 Crop Rotation
+2 Thoughtseize
+1 Golgari Charm
+1 Reclamation Sage
-3 Punishing Fire
-1 Barren Moor
-1 Scavenging Ooze
-3 Life from the Loam

Storm
+1 Volcanic Fallout
+2 Thoughtseize
+1 Bojuka Bog
+1 Crop Rotation
+1 Golgari Charm
+1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
+1 Ethersworn Canonist
+1 Slaughter Games
-3 Abrupt Decay
-3 Punishing Fire
-1 Maze of Ith
-1 Sylvan Library
-1 Life from the Loam

Shardless
+1 Volcanic Fallout
+3 Swords to Plowshares
+2 Thoughtseize
+1 Garruk Relentless
-4 Chalice of the Void
-1 Gaddock Teeg
-2 Mox Diamond


Death and Taxes
+1 Volcanic Fallout
+2 Thoughtseize
+3 Swords to Plowshares
+1 Garruk Relentless
+1 Golgari Charm
+1 Reclamation Sage
-4 Chalice of the Void
-1 Scavenging Ooze
-1 Deathrite Shaman
-1 Dark Depths
-1 Gaddock Teeg
-1 Life from the Loam

Miracles
+2 Thoughtseize
+1 Garruk Relentless
+1 Reclamation Sage
+1 Volcanic Fallout
+1 Slaughter Games
-1 Maze of Ith
-2 Mox Diamond
-1 Scavenging Ooze
-2 Life from the Loam


Eldrazi
+3 Swords to Plowshares
+2 Thoughtseize
+1 Garruk Relentless
+1 Reclamation Sage
+1 Crop Rotation
-4 Chalice of the Void
-1 Deathrite Shaman
-1 Gaddock Teeg
-1 Punishing Fire
-1 Sylvan Library


Grixis Delver (with Young Pyromancer)
+3 Swords to Plowshares
+1 Volcanic Fallout
+1 Bojuka Bog
-3 Liliana of the Veil
-1 Gaddock Teeg
-1 Barren Moor


RUG Delver (old Canadian creatures)
+3 Swords to Plowshares
+1 Volcanic Fallout
+1 Bojuka Bog
-2 Punishing Fire
-1 Gaddock Teeg
-1 Dark Confidant
-1 Barren Moor

BUG Delver
+2 Swords to Plowshares
+1 Bojuka Bog
-1 Gaddock Teeg
-1 Dark Confidant
-1 Barren Moor

[rocco94]

Lands

+1 Reclamation Sage
+3 Swords to Plowshares
+1 Crop Rotation
+1 Bojuka Bog
+1 Slaughter Games
-1 Dark Depths
-1 Gaddock Teeg
-3 Punishing Fire
-2 Chalice of the Void




Thanks for all of this work, really appreciated.
Isn't chalice good vs Lands? i think that's better than Lili

[useL]

Thanks for all of this work, really appreciated.
Isn't chalice good vs Lands? i think that's better than Lili

Liliana in play for 3 turns without them using punishing fire = they loose half their lands.

[useL]

Are you changing the canonists for the thalias due to S&Sand Miracles?
Overall I think I prefer canonists due to the elves mu.

3 pfire 4 decay and 3 swords is probably too much no?
i would change 1 decay for the shaman(it smooths out the mana)

I will be there friday, will probably try and steal some byes also.


The amount of decks where Thalia goes in are more simply put. I can use Thalia vs decks with Daze to great success. I might agree that a split might be correct, but Canonist does too little against combo decks that does not play multiple spells each turn and still can win.

My main issue with the shaman except the fact that we play chalice is that he oftentimes has to eat our own lands. I really dislike eating my own stuff that I later on want to use to win the game.

[Claymore]

I agree, I like Liliana against Lands. Liliana gives you an out to a very fast Marit Lage, and having her and Wasteland in your deck makes pushing out their combo very awkward. They cannot create Lage on their turn risk-free in case you drop Liliana, and they cannot rely on creating Lage on your turn if you have Wasteland to drop in your mainphase.

That, and her largely neutral +1 and ensuing ultimate can decimate their board.

I do like Chalice against them to turn off Crop Rotation/gamble or just eliminate their deck with it on 2...you could probably cut one of each.

Cutting 2 chalice might be more correct so you don't turn off your incoming 4 1cc cards (StP x3 and Crop Rotation).


My main issue with the shaman except the fact that we play chalice is that he oftentimes has to eat our own lands. I really dislike eating my own stuff that I later on want to use to win the game.


With the amount of games I've watched and played, I've seen Deathrite be too crucial of a lynch pin to be cut. I think 3 Fire/3 Decay is a good removal suite.

[rlesko]

Please tell me you guys seriously don't leave in Gaddock Teeg against delver decks? I would never cut chalices against RUG or Grixis Delver. I could see the rationale for cutting them against BUG decks (higher curve, they have abrupt decay anyways). Niklas said it a few pages back- You can leave swords and chalice in. If you have a chalice on 1 out, you have 3 one drops in your deck whereas your opponent has 25+.

Also, I really DONT like Ethersworn Canonist in the deck. I like Thalia and Containment priest waaaaay more. Canonist is at his/her best against storm, but we already have chalice and Teeg, and thalia would be great against storm too while also dodging hurkyl's recall. Ethersworn canonist is pretty useless against Sneak and Show which is our worst match up whereas thalia and containment priest come in here and really shine. You can also bring thalia in against delver decks to really tax them. Also, Thalia/Priest can even be brought in against dredge decks to stop dread return / NArcos / Cabal Therapy. Against reanimator, thalia and containment priest are both excellent. Canonist can more easily be played around (EOT Entomb, main phase reanimate, for example). And I've actually found we can be vulnerable to a fast start from elves, containment priest ensure they will not NO for the win.

[apocolyps6]

I'm also in the Thalia camp. Canonist shines in the Elves matchup but otherwise Thalia is just better. Elves has never been a problem. for me, so I see no reason to play Canonist.

Sneak&Show feels like a 50/50 matchup. They can't cast Show&Tell into a big dude or we show knight into Karakas, teeg shuts off sneak attack. Post board things get swinger if they bring in pyroclasm or blood moon. Revokers have been great in this matchup

[schniggaz]

Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

It seems like you are really impressed by her. I did play a lot of Maverick back in the days, so of course I am in love with her as well. Considering my Maindeck /SB configurations from Post 3327: It could be possible to play a second one over the Ethersworn Canonist and/or a second/third one over the Slaughter Games.

-It is worse against Elves, but to be honest, going down on Abrupt Decays and Dark Confidants postboard didn't really convince me anyways.
-SneakShow (which is worse than 50/50 in my opinion) and Burn, "the bad matchups", are getting better
-The Storm matchup doesn't change a lot.
-I can also see bringing them in against Delver and Miracles, but here are my concerns:

What else could/should we board out against Miracles?

How much does it hinder ourself when playing against Delver? Wasteland can be really crippling.
Are we exposing ourselves to cards like Forked Bolt or Pyroclasm-Effects?
And what else should we board out? Every card just seems so good postboard?

That means: I can definitely see running more than one copy in the 75, but I am skeptical that we will be able to squeeze them in against Delver and Miracles.

[Koke_MTG]

I'm reading this thread every day and at the same time I keep testing the deck and I'd like to help to build the list.

Right now I'm playing a stock list with some SB changes based on Niklas' results at Frankfurt. This is what I'm playing:

1 x Dryad Arbor
1 x Scavenging Ooze
1 x Gaddock Teeg
4 x Dark Confidant
4 x Knight of the Reliquary

4 x Mox Diamond
4 x Chalice of the Void
4 x Abrupt Decay
3 x Punishing Fire
2 x Life from the Loam
2 x Green Sun's Zenith
2 x Sylvan Library
3 x Liliana of the Veil

4 x Wasteland
3 x Grove of the Burnwillows
4 x Verdant Catacombs
2 x Windswept Heath
2 x Bayou
1 x Savannah
1 x Scrubland
1 x Taiga
1 x Badlands
1 x Forest
2 x Barren Moor
1 x Tranquil Thicket
1 x Karakas
1 x Maze of Ith

SB:

3 x Leyline of the Void
3 x Thoughtseize
2 x Phyrexian Revoker
1 x Reclamation Sage
1 x Garruk Relentless
1 x Chandra, Flamecaller
3 x Swords to Plowshares
1 x Golgari Charm

I like a lot this maindeck, and I don't like even more singletones with DRS and the combo. DRS at least gives us some utilities, helps our manabase and it's pure card quality so I can understand this, but the combo makes our initial hand worse as our Delver matchup as well, and because of this we need to play 27 lands what is horrible when you are going to the top without any card advantage.

A couple of months ago I was searching for an impactful sideboard card to beat Shardless BUG and I tried Meren of Clan Nel Thoth, the second Garruk Relentless and the third Life from the Loam, but I think I've found it with Chandra, Flamecaller. It's the perfect bomb. From the other options I like a lot the third Life from the Loam to have the Wasteland engine ASAP, what is really helpful against many other archetypes or just win through card advantage with cycle lands, but as I said I like the maindeck so I'd see it as a sideboard slot.

About sweepers I don't think we need more of them right now, and I don't like the idea of giving more importance to red sources with more red cards. Maybe if you want a second sweeper the answer could be Pyroclasm over Volcanic Fallout... Yeah, this is great vs PW and can't be countered but you'll run it especially against Delver and D&T, and against them it's too hard to have two red sources available, they'll punish you a lot through Wasteland, Revoker on Mox Diamond, Stifle... And against Elves I don't think we need more meat, I think it's a good matchup. So as D&T and Delver are not especially hard matchups it's by this why I think that we don't need more sweepers.

As you can see I'm worried about the Sneak & Show matchup as well, and by this I bring in the third Thoughtseize and Revokers, that are more useful than Thalia, Canonist and Priest these days. You can board in them against D&T, Miracles, Elves, Storm, Sneak & Show... and the rest are not good against all of those. Depending on the expected amount of combo I'd run the third Loam over the third Thoughtseize or maybe another sweeper, but I'm pretty happy with the rest.

What do you think especially about this sideboard?

[rlesko]

That means: I can definitely see running more than one copy in the 75, but I am skeptical that we will be able to squeeze them in against Delver and Miracles.

I do not bring them in against miracles - I actually think this is bad (I have seen other people post they bring thalia in...why??). For delver variations, its possible that you can no longer bring them in now that we are potentially bringing in some number of swords to plowshares.

Vs all delvers I am cutting my Gaddock Teeg. I have had good experiences cutting Green Sun's Zenith because it is very difficult to resolve for X=3 vs their decks. So I've swapped those two for Thalia. By swapping an effective 4 CMC card for a 2 CMC card you increase your interaction in the early turns and reduce the chance you lose by playing into their soft permission. It slows them down a lot, which is great for us. Also a side note- I don't think any delvers will bring in sweepers vs us (such as rough // tumble). Grixis cant because it kills their own stuff, and as far as they know the only creature it will kill is Dark Confidant or 0 counters ooze.

VS Rug I could see taking swords to plowshares instead of thalia, simply because it answers Tarmogoyf. Vs grixis I think thalia may be better than swords to plowshares, since Gurmag Angler is the only guy who can't be answered via punishing fire / decay, so I Will just maze him or make them sacrifice him via Liliana. Unfortunately, Thalia is a nonbo with Golgari Charm (a card I love to have vs young P decks, also they might bring in or already have TNN). Vs bug delver she is great in the sense that their abrupt decay now costs 3 mana, but unfortunately they also have Tarmogoyf. But who plays that shit anyways? :tongue:

I am really high on 2 Thalia / 1 Containment Priest split. Thalia also comes in vs Burn to slow them. But the fact they are all effective vs Sneak and Show is the icing on the cake.

[mike1987]

I do not bring them in against miracles - I actually think this is bad (I have seen other people post they bring thalia in...why??). For delver variations, its possible that you can no longer bring them in now that we are potentially bringing in some number of swords to plowshares.

Vs all delvers I am cutting my Gaddock Teeg. I have had good experiences cutting Green Sun's Zenith because it is very difficult to resolve for X=3 vs their decks. So I've swapped those two for Thalia. By swapping an effective 4 CMC card for a 2 CMC card you increase your interaction in the early turns and reduce the chance you lose by playing into their soft permission. It slows them down a lot, which is great for us. Also a side note- I don't think any delvers will bring in sweepers vs us (such as rough // tumble). Grixis cant because it kills their own stuff, and as far as they know the only creature it will kill is Dark Confidant or 0 counters ooze.

VS Rug I could see taking swords to plowshares instead of thalia, simply because it answers Tarmogoyf. Vs grixis I think thalia may be better than swords to plowshares, since Gurmag Angler is the only guy who can't be answered via punishing fire / decay, so I Will just maze him or make them sacrifice him via Liliana. Unfortunately, Thalia is a nonbo with Golgari Charm (a card I love to have vs young P decks, also they might bring in or already have TNN). Vs bug delver she is great in the sense that their abrupt decay now costs 3 mana, but unfortunately they also have Tarmogoyf. But who plays that shit anyways? :tongue:

I am really high on 2 Thalia / 1 Containment Priest split. Thalia also comes in vs Burn to slow them. But the fact they are all effective vs Sneak and Show is the icing on the cake.


While everyone is high on thalia and all, can i suggest that pithing needle might be a good sb card against sneak attack as well? Thalia does slow them down but needle narrows their angle of going off. The compromise would of course be the storm match-ups which we aren't that bad against them to begin with. Plus needle is more versatile in matchups like miracles, nic fit, decks with aether vials.

Just 2 cents from a player that just started playing this deck :tongue:

[apocolyps6]

For reference, this is the list I'm playing

Land (27)
2x Bayou
1x Dark Depths
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Forest
2x Grove of the Burnwillows
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Karakas
1x Plateau
1x Savannah
1x Scrubland
1x Stirring Wildwood
1x Taiga
1x Thespian's Stage
2x Tranquil Thicket
2x Verdant Catacombs
4x Wasteland
4x Windswept Heath
Creature (11)
3x Dark Confidant
1x Deathrite Shaman
1x Gaddock Teeg
4x Knight of the Reliquary
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Scavenging Ooze
Instant (7)
3x Abrupt Decay
1x Dismember
3x Punishing Fire
Sorcery (5)
3x Green Sun's Zenith
2x Life from the Loam
Artifact (8)
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Mox Diamond
Enchantment (2)
2x Sylvan Library

Sideboard (15)
1x Choke
2x Dread of Night (might change after testing)
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Meren of Clan Nel Toth
2x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Reclamation Sage
3x Swords to Plowshares
2x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2x Pyroclasm

I've been playing the maindeck for quite a while like that. Maybe half a year ago I cut a cycle land or something. The board changes more frequently.

The way I board against Miracles is:

Out:
1 DRS
1 Scooze
1 Dismember
1 Pfire
1 Mox Diamond
1 Loam

In:
1 Choke
2 Thalia
2 Revoker
1 Rec Sage

It of course matters what kind of miracles the opponent is on, and how they play, how many creatures I see, etc.

Miracles' early game is weak to hatebears like Revoker and Thalia and landing them early can give us a lot of time to craft a strong position. They also tend to keep hands that rely on heavy top/cantrip use.

Every single time i've tried taking out the second Mox against Miracles, I've gotten mooned out of the game. It hurts us in the late game, but my goal is to establish an advantage in the early game. (Failing that, I'm also happy to go long against them)

I don't board in Thalia against Delver because she might actually backfire there. I'm quote low risk when boarding against non-bug delver as the matchup does not require much effort on my part. Something like IN: Clasms, Pulse if I see pyro OUT: Teeg, Bob, Pridemage

@mike1987

Revoker does all that you described, as well as interact with LED+Petal from storm. Needle's advantage is that it hits lands (against Lands) and can give you some more percentage points against Belcheresque decks. I prefer Revoker ATM.

[juppal]

Hey, I used to play a lot of Legacy but more recently took a break for real life stuff. Anyway, thought about going to the Grand Prix and played this list here a few days ago.
http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-constructed-league-2016-06-02

I had some questions about this deck though as I'm not really sure how aggressive or defensive this deck really is.

1. How often do you prioritize Dredging back Life from the Loam? Obviously this is very dependent on the situation, but it often felt to me that Loam was really just an afterthought for Wasteland or Grove and rarely an engine I wanted to depend on like if I was playing Lands or something.

2. I feel like I often board out Maze of Ith, but I still think it is worth keeping in the main-deck, but against decks where Karakas does nothing, is it reasonable to cut it on the draw for G2/G3? The land count in this deck is really confusing since I basically never want to have Dryad in my opening hand.

3. I'm not really sure how I feel about the Depths/Stage combo, I've never been in a spot where it would be ideal, and I find myself just happy attacking with Knight ect. Is there a real advantage I am not seeing here?

4. Lastly, I felt as though any opening 7 without Mox Diamond or GSZ on turn 1 had to be really solid (aka: Mana Color wasn't an issue and I could reasonably curve out). Basically, I'm not sure how aggressively I can mulligan with this deck.

Thanks a bunch. Sorry if this is already laid out somewhere in this giant thread.

[mike1987]

Hey, I used to play a lot of Legacy but more recently took a break for real life stuff. Anyway, thought about going to the Grand Prix and played this list here a few days ago.
http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-constructed-league-2016-06-02

I had some questions about this deck though as I'm not really sure how aggressive or defensive this deck really is.

1. How often do you prioritize Dredging back Life from the Loam? Obviously this is very dependent on the situation, but it often felt to me that Loam was really just an afterthought for Wasteland or Grove and rarely an engine I wanted to depend on like if I was playing Lands or something.

2. I feel like I often board out Maze of Ith, but I still think it is worth keeping in the main-deck, but against decks where Karakas does nothing, is it reasonable to cut it on the draw for G2/G3? The land count in this deck is really confusing since I basically never want to have Dryad in my opening hand.

3. I'm not really sure how I feel about the Depths/Stage combo, I've never been in a spot where it would be ideal, and I find myself just happy attacking with Knight ect. Is there a real advantage I am not seeing here?

4. Lastly, I felt as though any opening 7 without Mox Diamond or GSZ on turn 1 had to be really solid (aka: Mana Color wasn't an issue and I could reasonably curve out). Basically, I'm not sure how aggressively I can mulligan with this deck.

Thanks a bunch. Sorry if this is already laid out somewhere in this giant thread.

Not a pro here but i hope i can answer some of your questions.

1. For me, i would dredge if i am actively wastelocking or ahead on board. If there is a cycle land in graveyard, i will most likely be dredging too. Would not dredge if i am in dire need for an answer like liliana, decay,knight

3. Having depths combo is good against other combo decks as it increases our clock much faster with knight and crop rotation. Ultimately, the combo decks will have inevitability against us so we got to put a clock on them too. Not to mention it might garner us some free wins here and there.

[btm10]

Hey, I used to play a lot of Legacy but more recently took a break for real life stuff. Anyway, thought about going to the Grand Prix and played this list here a few days ago.
http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-constructed-league-2016-06-02

I had some questions about this deck though as I'm not really sure how aggressive or defensive this deck really is.

1. How often do you prioritize Dredging back Life from the Loam? Obviously this is very dependent on the situation, but it often felt to me that Loam was really just an afterthought for Wasteland or Grove and rarely an engine I wanted to depend on like if I was playing Lands or something.

2. I feel like I often board out Maze of Ith, but I still think it is worth keeping in the main-deck, but against decks where Karakas does nothing, is it reasonable to cut it on the draw for G2/G3? The land count in this deck is really confusing since I basically never want to have Dryad in my opening hand.

3. I'm not really sure how I feel about the Depths/Stage combo, I've never been in a spot where it would be ideal, and I find myself just happy attacking with Knight ect. Is there a real advantage I am not seeing here?

4. Lastly, I felt as though any opening 7 without Mox Diamond or GSZ on turn 1 had to be really solid (aka: Mana Color wasn't an issue and I could reasonably curve out). Basically, I'm not sure how aggressively I can mulligan with this deck.

Thanks a bunch. Sorry if this is already laid out somewhere in this giant thread.

1. Not all that often. There are a handful of times when I dredge Loam (this might not be correct, but it works well for me): when Wasteland/Loam lock is the priority (e.g., ahead on board against a deck with few/no basics AND out of Wastelands in hand), when Loam gets back a cycling Land AND a Land that does something immediately useful (e.g., Maze of Ith against Eldrazi) or multiple cycling Lands when I have a bunch of extra mana, to clear garbage or excess Lands to see more cards with Sylvan Library, and when I need Punishing Fire in particular. The last one rarely comes up, but there are times when you have better odds of finding removal by Dredging and hoping to hit a Punishing Fire than you are by naturally drawing and hoping to hit Decay or Liliana.

2. I board Maze out against decks where it's bad, like combo and Miracles. It's actually not bad against Reanimator since it contains one of their fatties indefinitely unless they go for Inkwell Leviathan or Tidespout Tyrant. You'd rather not have to use it there at all, but it does considerably more work that some of your other maindeck cards.

3. I haven't played with it enough to say for sure, but there are times when it can completely turn the game around.

4. You can mulligan quite aggressively. The deck recoups value fairly easily over the course of a game, so always make sure your opener does something. That "something" can be as simple as "Fetch, Go, EOT cycle Thicket/Moor, untap, Land, Decay your thing", but it needs to have a plan. Keeps have to be much more coherent than in decks with Brainstorm. This is much easier games 2 and 3 when you get to know what you need to be doing, but most business + mana hands are keeps g1, especially on the play. Turn 1 plays are ideal, but if you have a reasonable curve of stuff to do at 7 I'd keep it.

[Griselpuff]

Dredge loam only if it's guaranteeing you a card of value
Having played the combo, it's hard to go back because it's just another huge angle of attack.
Role assessment is the hardest part with playing this deck, it can be aggro, midrange, control, prison or even combo. It depends a lot on the match-up and your draw, but in general this is a control deck and should be played as such. Against combo/miracles, it's an prison-aggro deck.

[schniggaz]

A couple of months ago I was searching for an impactful sideboard card to beat Shardless BUG and I tried Meren of Clan Nel Thoth, the second Garruk Relentless and the third Life from the Loam, but I think I've found it with Chandra, Flamecaller. It's the perfect bomb. From the other options I like a lot the third Life from the Loam to have the Wasteland engine ASAP, what is really helpful against many other archetypes or just win through card advantage with cycle lands, but as I said I like the maindeck so I'd see it as a sideboard slot.

...

As you can see I'm worried about the Sneak & Show matchup as well, and by this I bring in the third Thoughtseize and Revokers, that are more useful than Thalia, Canonist and Priest these days. You can board in them against D&T, Miracles, Elves, Storm, Sneak & Show... and the rest are not good against all of those. Depending on the expected amount of combo I'd run the third Loam over the third Thoughtseize or maybe another sweeper, but I'm pretty happy with the rest.

What do you think especially about this sideboard?

Glad that you like Chandra, Flamecaller,too :) Right now she is my sideboard card number 15 to 25. Sadly she gets cut more often, but it is really close. You could also just play the third Loam Maindeck for the second library. Postboard just remove some Loams when you expect a lot of graveyard hate.

Having more Thoughtseizes is definitely never a bad idea. Phyrexian Revoker is the kind of card I want and the card types I hate the most. Having a Pithing Needle that can name LED is huge. Being a creature as well as an artifact is bad. Most of the cards your opponents will bring in can most likely kill it.
Vs Miracles naming Sensei's Divining Top is great, but once you have it on the battlefield it gets interesting.
Do you attack in two open mana? Snapcaster Mage sometimes just wants to be an Ambush Viper!
How many more threats are you deploying? Two or three for ones with Terminus now get real.
Do you add an enchantment to the battlefield? Now Wear/Tear might completely destroy you.

As mike1987 mentioned: Pithing Needle might just be better.



Not a pro here but i hope i can answer some of your questions.


You realized that this is the perfect deck to play. You are a pro to me!


Hey, I used to play a lot of Legacy but more recently took a break for real life stuff. Anyway, thought about going to the Grand Prix and played this list here a few days ago.
http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-constructed-league-2016-06-02

I had some questions about this deck though as I'm not really sure how aggressive or defensive this deck really is.

1. How often do you prioritize Dredging back Life from the Loam? Obviously this is very dependent on the situation, but it often felt to me that Loam was really just an afterthought for Wasteland or Grove and rarely an engine I wanted to depend on like if I was playing Lands or something.

2. I feel like I often board out Maze of Ith, but I still think it is worth keeping in the main-deck, but against decks where Karakas does nothing, is it reasonable to cut it on the draw for G2/G3? The land count in this deck is really confusing since I basically never want to have Dryad in my opening hand.

3. I'm not really sure how I feel about the Depths/Stage combo, I've never been in a spot where it would be ideal, and I find myself just happy attacking with Knight ect. Is there a real advantage I am not seeing here?

4. Lastly, I felt as though any opening 7 without Mox Diamond or GSZ on turn 1 had to be really solid (aka: Mana Color wasn't an issue and I could reasonably curve out). Basically, I'm not sure how aggressively I can mulligan with this deck.

Thanks a bunch. Sorry if this is already laid out somewhere in this giant thread.

1.1. As soon as you have one Cycle Land and enough mana to cycle+play Loam+play a spell, that means 6 mana or more, you should always dredge. It just gives you a free redraw while also gaining more value by finding additional cycle-lands, Wastelands, Punishing Fires and making your Landdrops.
1.2 If you don't need anything right now ->you should most likely Dredge. Getting to point 1.1 is super important.
1.3 You need an answer and are constrained on mana or do not have a cycle land? Draw!

Always remember, as long as your opponent doesn't interact with your graveyard, use it as much as possible to win with it. Once your opponent is ready to deal with it, just using Loam to get back two or three lands means card advantage. Cards like Dark Confidant and Liliana will win while your opponent wasted too many cards to deal with your graveyard.

2. Against comboish decks and Miracles you can board it out, otherwise leave it in. Cutting Karakas gets more difficult once you start playing the best Sideboard-card.

3. It is just another angle of attack against Shardless and Miracles. Attacking twice for 6 damage with Knight is not going to do it when they topdeck the answer for it. Furthermore it helps to have a fast clock against Combo, the clock (can be really important as well) and it's perfect against elves. Often times they can block Knight forever with all their bounce shenenigans.

4. You are correct here. If you don't have a Mox or a GSZ and your mana seems not perfect -> you should probably mulligan. Once you start playing Swords to Plowshares in your SB (Best card!) you will get way more keepable hands postboard.

To learn more about Swords to Plowshares and the role in this deck you just need to read a few pages of this thread, starting at page 162.


Edit: ironclad8690 has exceeded their stored private messages quota and cannot accept further messages until they clear some space.

[juppal]

Glad that you like Chandra, Flamecaller,too :) Right now she is my sideboard card number 15 to 25. Sadly she gets cut more often, but it is really close. You could also just play the third Loam Maindeck for the second library. Postboard just remove some Loams when you expect a lot of graveyard hate.

Having more Thoughtseizes is definitely never a bad idea. Phyrexian Revoker is the kind of card I want and the card types I hate the most. Having a Pithing Needle that can name LED is huge. Being a creature as well as an artifact is bad. Most of the cards your opponents will bring in can most likely kill it.
Vs Miracles naming Sensei's Divining Top is great, but once you have it on the battlefield it gets interesting.
Do you attack in two open mana? Snapcaster Mage sometimes just wants to be an Ambush Viper!
How many more threats are you deploying? Two or three for ones with Terminus now get real.
Do you add an enchantment to the battlefield? Now Wear/Tear might completely destroy you.

As mike1987 mentioned: Pithing Needle might just be better.




You realized that this is the perfect deck to play. You are a pro to me!



1.1. As soon as you have one Cycle Land and enough mana to cycle+play Loam+play a spell, that means 6 mana or more, you should always dredge. It just gives you a free redraw while also gaining more value by finding additional cycle-lands, Wastelands, Punishing Fires and making your Landdrops.
1.2 If you don't need anything right now ->you should most likely Dredge. Getting to point 1.1 is super important.
1.3 You need an answer and are constrained on mana or do not have a cycle land? Draw!

Always remember, as long as your opponent doesn't interact with your graveyard, use it as much as possible to win with it. Once your opponent is ready to deal with it, just using Loam to get back two or three lands means card advantage. Cards like Dark Confidant and Liliana will win while your opponent wasted too many cards to deal with your graveyard.

2. Against comboish decks and Miracles you can board it out, otherwise leave it in. Cutting Karakas gets more difficult once you start playing the best Sideboard-card.

3. It is just another angle of attack against Shardless and Miracles. Attacking twice for 6 damage with Knight is not going to do it when they topdeck the answer for it. Furthermore it helps to have a fast clock against Combo, the clock (can be really important as well) and it's perfect against elves. Often times they can block Knight forever with all their bounce shenenigans.

4. You are correct here. If you don't have a Mox or a GSZ and your mana seems not perfect -> you should probably mulligan. Once you start playing Swords to Plowshares in your SB (Best card!) you will get way more keepable hands postboard.

To learn more about Swords to Plowshares and the role in this deck you just need to read a few pages of this thread, starting at page 162.


Edit: ironclad8690 has exceeded their stored private messages quota and cannot accept further messages until they clear some space.

Thanks for the responses, one thing I noticed was that I am never really sure how to go about playing Dryad Arbor from your hand. My opening hand last night was ( OTP in the dark)

Dark Confidant x 2
Liliana
Verdant Catacombs x2
Dryad Arbor
Abrupt Decay

I kept, and I felt like that wasn't particularly close. But would you lead on Arbor? I feel as though it is wrong due to the fact that 2 is such an important juncture in the game-plan with this deck, so letting your opponent be able to play a removal spell on T1 doesn't feel particularly good. Thoughts?

[Fergblaster]

Is there any reason why a singleton Gitrog Monster would be actively bad in this deck? I am interested in trying it. Triggers from fetches, wastes, cycling lands, dredged lands, extra moxen. Fetchable with GSZ, blocks really well. Two lands a turn is great for wastelocking and you can even use a draw trigger to dredge loam if you want to use the same Wasteland twice in a turn.

This thread is great by the way...I have been lurking for a while and look forward to playing against some of you in Prague!

[Djehuti]

Is there any reason why a singleton Gitrog Monster would be actively bad in this deck? I am interested in trying it. Triggers from fetches, wastes, cycling lands, dredged lands, extra moxen. Fetchable with GSZ, blocks really well. Two lands a turn is great for wastelocking and you can even use a draw trigger to dredge loam if you want to use the same Wasteland twice in a turn.

This thread is great by the way...I have been lurking for a while and look forward to playing against some of you in Prague!

The only reason I can think of is just deck space. What card would you cut to fit Gritrog? There has definitely been a few occasions where i wished i had an exploration effect so accelerate wastelock so i see where you're coming from.

[rlesko]

Is there any reason why a singleton Gitrog Monster would be actively bad in this deck? I am interested in trying it. Triggers from fetches, wastes, cycling lands, dredged lands, extra moxen. Fetchable with GSZ, blocks really well. Two lands a turn is great for wastelocking and you can even use a draw trigger to dredge loam if you want to use the same Wasteland twice in a turn.

This thread is great by the way...I have been lurking for a while and look forward to playing against some of you in Prague!

Just the fact that its 5 mana. I've wanted the exploration effect too but more in the early turns not after turn 4. It does seem like a bomb that can take over the game though.

[Aberosh1819]

Thanks for the responses, one thing I noticed was that I am never really sure how to go about playing Dryad Arbor from your hand. My opening hand last night was ( OTP in the dark)

Dark Confidant x 2
Liliana
Verdant Catacombs x2
Dryad Arbor
Abrupt Decay

I kept, and I felt like that wasn't particularly close. But would you lead on Arbor? I feel as though it is wrong due to the fact that 2 is such an important juncture in the game-plan with this deck, so letting your opponent be able to play a removal spell on T1 doesn't feel particularly good. Thoughts?

How did it play out?

I'd be likely to lead with Arbor, personally. If left unchecked, it still leads to T2 Bob / T3 Liliana.
- If you let it sit in your hand, it slows down Liliana until T4 (assuming no other lands)
- If they have the removal, I'd rather they hit the arbor than Bob or a future KotR
- If the removal is Wasteland, then you're basically netting even at that point (assuming you are on the play), and have a land in the yard for KotR

That being said, I absolutely hate having Arbor in my opening X.

[Fergblaster]

Just the fact that its 5 mana. I've wanted the exploration effect too but more in the early turns not after turn 4. It does seem like a bomb that can take over the game though.

What about Azusa? I guess she just doesn't do enough on her own to warrant taking a spot. I'm gonna test a little with Gitrog and a Ghost Quarter somewhere in my 60 and see how it fares.

[Aberosh1819]

What about Azusa? I guess she just doesn't do enough on her own to warrant taking a spot. I'm gonna test a little with Gitrog and a Ghost Quarter somewhere in my 60 and see how it fares.

What are you cutting for these? What match-ups do you expect this to thrive in?

Not being argumentative, and would love to do the same, but it hasn't appeared to be worth a cut from our 60 for Gitrog, and I can't see adding a GQ at all (unless you're non-DD/TS?)

[apocolyps6]

Gitrog is, if anything, an option for the Garruk/Meren/etc slot in the board. It does similar things. My biggest concern is that the card feels strictly unplayable if the opponent has grave hate. The rest of the deck is perfectly playable despite grave hate (esp if you board out a loam) so you get to choose whether or not to remove grave hate

Being able to ignore a RIP or Leyline from the opponent is a wonderful source of "card advantage." Now with the frog if there is a RIP, we need to eventually care about it.

[rlesko]

What about Azusa? I guess she just doesn't do enough on her own to warrant taking a spot. I'm gonna test a little with Gitrog and a Ghost Quarter somewhere in my 60 and see how it fares.

If I really wanted an exploration on a stick I would probably play Mina and Denn, Wildborn. Its a 4/4 so dodges bolt, explores, and gives knight trample.

EDIT: As a matter of fact, this sounds pretty good, anyone try this when OGW came out? haha

[btm10]

What are you cutting for these? What match-ups do you expect this to thrive in?

Not being argumentative, and would love to do the same, but it hasn't appeared to be worth a cut from our 60 for Gitrog, and I can't see adding a GQ at all (unless you're non-DD/TS?)

I can't speak to Gitrog, but I tested one Ghost Quarter over my fourth Wasteland and it wasn't bad. It's functionally identical most of the time and the worst downsides are fairly easy to mitigate by using it at appropriate times. The upside of being Strip Mine against 80% of Legacy decks is significant, and should at least be considered.

[schniggaz]

Thanks for the responses, one thing I noticed was that I am never really sure how to go about playing Dryad Arbor from your hand. My opening hand last night was ( OTP in the dark)

Dark Confidant x 2
Liliana
Verdant Catacombs x2
Dryad Arbor
Abrupt Decay

I kept, and I felt like that wasn't particularly close. But would you lead on Arbor? I feel as though it is wrong due to the fact that 2 is such an important juncture in the game-plan with this deck, so letting your opponent be able to play a removal spell on T1 doesn't feel particularly good. Thoughts?

First of all this hand is like a mulligan because of Dryad Arbor, but a solid 6 card hand on the play. You would most likely not keep the hand on the draw.
Playing the Dryad Arbor first and getting it removed is like being on the draw again which is horrible with this hand.
If you play your two Fetches on the first two turns, you have two more draws to draw a third land until it gets relevant. And even if you do not draw your third land in time (which is unlikely), you still have at least two other good plays with your two mana. If the first Dark Confidant lives you have even three draws to draw a third land. And now take into consideration that you could also draw a Mox Diamond. Now your Dryad Arbor gets kind of "good".

[Claymore]

If I really wanted an exploration on a stick I would probably play Mina and Denn, Wildborn. Its a 4/4 so dodges bolt, explores, and gives knight trample.

EDIT: As a matter of fact, this sounds pretty good, anyone try this when OGW came out? haha

Being able to bounce Bojuka Bog isn't too shabby either, though I can't name how often you want to bounce and replay Bojuka Bog. You could get saucy with Seijri Steppe.

It also lets you get some more benefit from playing out Cycle lands, although that's fairly rare, and lets you "untap" utility lands like Maze, Karakas, Grove, and Thespian's Stage.

Worth a shot.

How useful has Scavenging Ooze been lately anyway?

[Aberosh1819]

Being able to bounce Bojuka Bog isn't too shabby either, though I can't name how often you want to bounce and replay Bojuka Bog. You could get saucy with Seijri Steppe.

It also lets you get some more benefit from playing out Cycle lands, although that's fairly rare, and lets you "untap" utility lands like Maze, Karakas, Grove, and Thespian's Stage.

Worth a shot.

How useful has Scavenging Ooze been lately anyway?

Not that my thoughts lend credence to anything, but I have been considering Steppe. This entire line of thinking is attractive to me, although I can't see dramatically altering my GP list this late in the game.

[juppal]

First of all this hand is like a mulligan because of Dryad Arbor, but a solid 6 card hand on the play. You would most likely not keep the hand on the draw.
Playing the Dryad Arbor first and getting it removed is like being on the draw again which is horrible with this hand.
If you play your two Fetches on the first two turns, you have two more draws to draw a third land until it gets relevant. And even if you do not draw your third land in time (which is unlikely), you still have at least two other good plays with your two mana. If the first Dark Confidant lives you have even three draws to draw a third land. And now take into consideration that you could also draw a Mox Diamond. Now your Dryad Arbor gets kind of "good".

Wow. Okay I wouldn't have considered this hand to be a mulligan on the draw. Is there any other guidelines you had on mulligans? Specifically in certain matchups?

[apocolyps6]

Mina and Denn might be cool as a 2drop, but as a 4drop it is pretty underwhelming.

Exploration is an effect you want early, Bojuka Bog is mostly for fast GY decks like dredge and reanimator. We don't want to put in lands that are there mostly for situational ETB (Steppe seems really eh). It doesn't generate card advantage (by itself) in the late game. It is neat to get to use Maze for vigilance and removal, but that's kind of it

[Claymore]

It does feel like a win-more card, but I don't think this deck can utilize early game Exploration effects as well as Lands purely because we run fewer lands (24-26 vs ~35). This deck wants establish some early control effects (Chalice, Removal, Wasteland), little bit of board presence (Bob, Liliana, Knight) and then fire up the loam engine mid to late game and bury them in card advantage...which is when you can afford to GSZ for 5 mana.

The matchups where you would want Mina-Denn are where you want multiple Wastelands/Ghost Quarters a turn (Shardless, Lands, Eldrazi, Miracles if you want to be annoying and fuck up their Tops with GQ) or need the Trample effect (DnT, Grixis Delver, maybe Shardless to push through Strix). Or, where you need to combat tax/Wasteland effects (Lands, DnT) with extra land drops. Or you can churn Dryad Arbor as a repeatable blocker/sac target for Goyf/Liliana in Shardless.

The land drop effect would help power-up your board to churn the expensive Punishing Fire and Loam package to recover against DnT or Shardless, or let you still make progress with Wasteland drops.

Tireless Tracker or Gitrog might fit the deck more on that mid-late game end for pure card advantage plus game ending beatdowns. Tracker benefits for being cheaper and not relying on the graveyard against RIP and Leylines.

It seems like a good card to help the Shardless matchup the most, but without a high P/T to fight Goyf I think Gitrog would fit that requirement better.

I do feel like Scavenging Ooze has been lackluster for me, that slot feels fairly flexible overall. If I get some testing time I'll try it out.

[pocari79]

Went to a local tournament today and went an amazing 0-3 drop. Used the list that Schniggaz proposed a page or two back except I had three Leyline of the Voids instead of the Crop Rotation, Bojuka Bog graveyard hate in the sideboard. I played fairly bad today but felt like I didn't draw that well either so that didn't help. I wasn't that used to the new-ish manabase and felt like I kept on playing the wrong lands and fetching the wrong lands. Just miserable.

Thoughts about the deck as of now:
- I liked having the 3rd loam but only having 1 cycling land really makes the loams not as effective as before when you could dredge with loam and still draw a card with a cycling land.
- I know many people like having the Thespian's Stage + Dark Depth combo in the maindeck or sideboard but I've really grown to dislike it. I've had to mulligan multiple times today where I kept on drawing the Stage or the DD in my opening hand and there just wasn't enough colored sources in hand to keep and that was very frustrating. Going for the combo also felt very clunky and it always seems like the opponent had an answer ready for it.
- Also, this is probably just me but it seems like every time I resolve a Chalice on 1, in the next two draw steps, I always end up drawing the Deathrite Shaman and this has happened in multiple tournaments already which is very annoying. I will definitely change the Deathrite back to an Abrupt Decay as I have found that I missed having a 4th Decay. Maybe I'm not playing the deck right by always using GSZ to get the Deathrite out of the deck ASAP when there's a Chalice on 1 but I just feel I need to save the GSZ for a Knight as a Knight usually has higher impact.
- I've really missed having the Maelstrom Pulse in the sideboard for the past couple of tournaments and I feel like the deck needs some kind of effect like that to deal with problem threats like a fast Jace, the Mind Sculptor. Also, has anybody actually every destroyed multiple permanents with a Pulse? I've never done it and I want to try a Vindicate in place of a Pulse since I have many times wanted to have the ability to destroy a land when I had a Pulse in hand.
- I really want to also have a Pyroclasm type card in the sideboard. Didn't have one today and really felt the need for one. I could see running a Pyroclasm but if there are a lot of Mentors running around, maybe we need something like Sudden Demise instead? It'll cost more to kill big things but at least you're not paying tons of life like Toxic Deluge. The only issue this might have is that now the manabase post board is going to be stretched to need more white for Swords to Plowshares and red for the sweepers. Not sure if our mana can take the strain.

[Djehuti]

Went to a local tournament today and went an amazing 0-3 drop. Used the list that Schniggaz proposed a page or two back except I had three Leyline of the Voids instead of the Crop Rotation, Bojuka Bog graveyard hate in the sideboard. I played fairly bad today but felt like I didn't draw that well either so that didn't help. I wasn't that used to the new-ish manabase and felt like I kept on playing the wrong lands and fetching the wrong lands. Just miserable.

Thoughts about the deck as of now:
- I liked having the 3rd loam but only having 1 cycling land really makes the loams not as effective as before when you could dredge with loam and still draw a card with a cycling land.
- I know many people like having the Thespian's Stage + Dark Depth combo in the maindeck or sideboard but I've really grown to dislike it. I've had to mulligan multiple times today where I kept on drawing the Stage or the DD in my opening hand and there just wasn't enough colored sources in hand to keep and that was very frustrating. Going for the combo also felt very clunky and it always seems like the opponent had an answer ready for it.
- Also, this is probably just me but it seems like every time I resolve a Chalice on 1, in the next two draw steps, I always end up drawing the Deathrite Shaman and this has happened in multiple tournaments already which is very annoying. I will definitely change the Deathrite back to an Abrupt Decay as I have found that I missed having a 4th Decay. Maybe I'm not playing the deck right by always using GSZ to get the Deathrite out of the deck ASAP when there's a Chalice on 1 but I just feel I need to save the GSZ for a Knight as a Knight usually has higher impact.
- I've really missed having the Maelstrom Pulse in the sideboard for the past couple of tournaments and I feel like the deck needs some kind of effect like that to deal with problem threats like a fast Jace, the Mind Sculptor. Also, has anybody actually every destroyed multiple permanents with a Pulse? I've never done it and I want to try a Vindicate in place of a Pulse since I have many times wanted to have the ability to destroy a land when I had a Pulse in hand.
- I really want to also have a Pyroclasm type card in the sideboard. Didn't have one today and really felt the need for one. I could see running a Pyroclasm but if there are a lot of Mentors running around, maybe we need something like Sudden Demise instead? It'll cost more to kill big things but at least you're not paying tons of life like Toxic Deluge. The only issue this might have is that now the manabase post board is going to be stretched to need more white for Swords to Plowshares and red for the sweepers. Not sure if our mana can take the strain.

I get what you mean with the fetching, i missed a top 8 yesterday for that reason =(

Statistically speaking, the poor results with getting cards you don't want at the wrong time sounds anomalous. If you have "always" draw deathrite after chalicing or frequently have a piece of the DD combo in your opener, you definitely won the lottery for downside of variance. I suppose it's not wrong to remove any of the aforementioned cards for something else if that's what you prefer but my experience with the cards has been nothing short of spectacular. Having a tutorable 1 turn kill is so powerful for a 2 slot investment, i just can't see dropping it for something else.

Can't say i have a strong opinion on any board wipes as of yet. i tried crop rotation + bojuka bog + tabernacle package yesterday and it worked out ok. it might be worse than a straight up pryoclasm effect but i just can't bring myself to cut it. The tabernacle is one hell of a drug.

[useL]

Talk me out of playing Titania, Protector of Argoth again please. She just looks so sweet and I really lack a fast win sometimes with multiple targets. Hate getting my Knight bounced by jace...

[Nocley]

Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

It seems like you are really impressed by her. I did play a lot of Maverick back in the days, so of course I am in love with her as well. Considering my Maindeck /SB configurations from Post 3327: It could be possible to play a second one over the Ethersworn Canonist and/or a second/third one over the Slaughter Games.

-It is worse against Elves, but to be honest, going down on Abrupt Decays and Dark Confidants postboard didn't really convince me anyways.
-SneakShow (which is worse than 50/50 in my opinion) and Burn, "the bad matchups", are getting better
-The Storm matchup doesn't change a lot.
-I can also see bringing them in against Delver and Miracles, but here are my concerns:

What else could/should we board out against Miracles?

How much does it hinder ourself when playing against Delver? Wasteland can be really crippling.
Are we exposing ourselves to cards like Forked Bolt or Pyroclasm-Effects?
And what else should we board out? Every card just seems so good postboard?

That means: I can definitely see running more than one copy in the 75, but I am skeptical that we will be able to squeeze them in against Delver and Miracles.

With regards to Thalia and Miracles, why is Thoughtseize better than she is there? Especially that we are keeping every Chalice in and not being quickly pressured (like combo matchups where TS and Chalice remain in), would she be a benefit there, especially now that every miracles player knows to play around wasteland (so we can't really be taxing them in that regard)?

[schniggaz]

With regards to Thalia and Miracles, why is Thoughtseize better than she is there? Especially that we are keeping every Chalice in and not being quickly pressured (like combo matchups where TS and Chalice remain in), would she be a benefit there, especially now that every miracles player knows to play around wasteland (so we can't really be taxing them in that regard)?

You are boarding out 2 Mox Diamonds, so having just a bit more early interaction is never really bad. Thoughtseize actually helps you to protect your key spells, like Library, Liliana, Garruk or Chalice. You can take their counter or their removal for the relevant card. Furthermore it can deal with their enchantments, Balance or Rest in Peace. You can also deal with Mentor or Jace. And what is also really important: you can deal with Blood Moon and Ruination. It is great to have Zenith + Rec Sage to deal with Blood Moon, but sometimes they do run some kind of Ruination-Effect now. Thoughtseize is just so versatile here.


Talk me out of playing Titania, Protector of Argoth again please. She just looks so sweet and I really lack a fast win sometimes with multiple targets. Hate getting my Knight bounced by jace...

Whatever is true for the Gitrog Monster is also true for Titania. 5 mana spells are only good in the slow matchups. We are talking about Legacy. There is no way you can make room for these cards maindeck and you have better options for your SB.


Wow. Okay I wouldn't have considered this hand to be a mulligan on the draw. Is there any other guidelines you had on mulligans? Specifically in certain matchups?

With this hand OTD you will lose to any comboish deck, any reasonable Delver,Shardless,Miracles,Eldrazi, Death and Taxes draw. I can hardly see any matchup you would be favored by keeping this hand OTD.

[Griselpuff]

Not the expert, but I would definitely keep that. As a 6 card hand with 2 lands 2 bob decay and lili, it's passable. You get to see their first turn to decide whether to lead with Arbor or fetch

[juppal]

You are boarding out 2 Mox Diamonds, so having just a bit more early interaction is never really bad. Thoughtseize actually helps you to protect your key spells, like Library, Liliana, Garruk or Chalice. You can take their counter or their removal for the relevant card. Furthermore it can deal with their enchantments, Balance or Rest in Peace. You can also deal with Mentor or Jace. And what is also really important: you can deal with Blood Moon and Ruination. It is great to have Zenith + Rec Sage to deal with Blood Moon, but sometimes they do run some kind of Ruination-Effect now. Thoughtseize is just so versatile here.



Whatever is true for the Gitrog Monster is also true for Titania. 5 mana spells are only good in the slow matchups. We are talking about Legacy. There is no way you can make room for these cards maindeck and you have better options for your SB.



With this hand OTD you will lose to any comboish deck, any reasonable Delver,Shardless,Miracles,Eldrazi, Death and Taxes draw. I can hardly see any matchup you would be favored by keeping this hand OTD.

Okay, that makes sense. Any other mulligan rules of thumb? Specific circumstances would be a great example too.

[aluisiocsantos]

Just logged in to congratulate Schnigazz for the finish!

I've been an admirer since the first days of glory at BOM and I'm back to try the deck again.
Trying to get prepared for the brazillian GP with this beauty, hoping to pilot your list from Frankfurt, with both planeswalkers on sideboard.

I've just ordered Garruk as I've never played him. I know it's probably been know to death but since I've never had one to try, I assume his biggest use is for grindy matches yeah? Such as DnT or Blade/Shardless? Where else he's most used?

I simply love this new Chandra, I look forward to demolish some miracles!

I'm expecting a meta with some Sneak Show decks so I might tech it out as you pointed recently.

[Nocley]

A few more questions regarding the SB plans listed a few pages back:

1. What does Crop Rotation get us against Elves, if you're not on Tabernacle? Are we just digging for Groves so we can start P Firing everything? Same for Eldrazi, is it just digging for Maze?
2. Why do Abrupt Decays stay in against Sneak and Show over the cards you're taking out like Scooze or P Fire? I know they're slow, but wouldn't you rather have a PFire in case they get greedy and go low off Griselbrand?

Also I'm leaning more and more towards Leylines over the Rotation/Bog package, but I'm not liking cutting the second sweeper (of Tabernacle/Fallout). If I went to 3 leylines, I assume the best cut would be the canonist (or 2nd Thalia, if you are in that camp), or would it be Slaughter Games?

The logic behind the Leylines over Bog is that Bog is better against Delver strategies, ones where it's fine to get a one shot effect. However, this is a bit less important now that we have swords to take care of an Angler that's landed, plus the matchup is already slightly in our favor. On the other hand, Leylines shore up a lot of the fringe matchups that are unfavored for us, like Dredge or Reanimator. With that being said, Delver is still a loseable matchup, and I'm much more likely to play that in a GP than the fringe decks (though at SeaTac last year I did play Dredge, Oops all Spells, and Reanimator in 13 rounds, and Delver only twice, but that's an anecdote and wouldn't be the norm). Additionally, I can hope that the presence of Eldrazi playing 3-4 Leylines of their own is enough to take care of those decks?

[Whitefaces]

2. Why do Abrupt Decays stay in against Sneak and Show over the cards you're taking out like Scooze or P Fire? I know they're slow, but wouldn't you rather have a PFire in case they get greedy and go low off Griselbrand?

SnS tend to play a few Blood Moon in the board.

[Seraphix]

A few more questions regarding the SB plans listed a few pages back:

1. What does Crop Rotation get us against Elves, if you're not on Tabernacle? Are we just digging for Groves so we can start P Firing everything? Same for Eldrazi, is it just digging for Maze?

...


Elves is really soft to Marit Lage.

[Nocley]

SnS tend to play a few Blood Moon in the board.

Ah, that makes sense. Forgot that they do have those. I wasn't thinking enough about their SB and could only think that the targets in there were the Petals.


Elves is really soft to Marit Lage.
Yes, but getting a second part of what is still a 2 card 1 of combo in our deck doesnt seem consistently fast enough? I know we have KotRs to search for the other half, but there's still a lot of specifics that we need to get to that point, as a KotR on turn 3 doesnt make a DD kill until T5, at which point we are typically dead unless we've seen another SB card as disruption. I could be wrong, this is what happens when every Elfs player locally either moved away or sold out.

[schniggaz]

Okay, that makes sense. Any other mulligan rules of thumb? Specific circumstances would be a great example too.

That is really hard. I don't have any specific rules. What you can't do is keeping a hand without Turn One interaction against Fast-Combo OTD. Even you have like double Thalia, Teeg, Bob and Lands.



Just logged in to congratulate Schnigazz for the finish!

I've been an admirer since the first days of glory at BOM and I'm back to try the deck again.
Trying to get prepared for the brazillian GP with this beauty, hoping to pilot your list from Frankfurt, with both planeswalkers on sideboard.

I've just ordered Garruk as I've never played him. I know it's probably been know to death but since I've never had one to try, I assume his biggest use is for grindy matches yeah? Such as DnT or Blade/Shardless? Where else he's most used?

I simply love this new Chandra, I look forward to demolish some miracles!

I'm expecting a meta with some Sneak Show decks so I might tech it out as you pointed recently.

Thanks sir. When is the brazilian GP? You should wait for the Top 8 Lists of Prague and Columbus, someone is going to get there ;)

Garruk is a must. Bring him in whenever the games are going long. He even got better with the last release, since Shardless can't Decay him once he flipped =)
Chandra is just awesome. You have to love her. But I probably won't find a place for her next weekend.


A few more questions regarding the SB plans listed a few pages back:

1. What does Crop Rotation get us against Elves, if you're not on Tabernacle? Are we just digging for Groves so we can start P Firing everything? Same for Eldrazi, is it just digging for Maze?

2. Why do Abrupt Decays stay in against Sneak and Show over the cards you're taking out like Scooze or P Fire? I know they're slow, but wouldn't you rather have a PFire in case they get greedy and go low off Griselbrand?



1. The cards we are taking out are not better. Crop Rotation allows us to combo a bit faster. It is not like you need a Knight for a turn, sometimes you just draw one piece of the Combo anyways. Getting Grove or sometimes just a Wasteland might be good as well.

edit: Maze, Wastelands and the combo are THAT good against Eldrazis, yes!


2. Blood Moon and Pithing Needle. That makes it definitely better than Fire or Ooze.




I tried to think about your concerns about the manabase and the missing cycle lands. I think I managed to get to enough Black, White and Green sources, while still playing two cycle lands, the DD Combo and all the other utility lands. I am now short a red source, but I also tried to reduce the red mana symbols:

34 spell stay the same (1 DRS, 3 Loam, 1 Library)
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Wasteland
1 Secluded Steppe
1 Barren Moor
1 Forest
2 Bayou
1 Taiga
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
3 Windswept Heath
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Thespian Stage
1 Dark Depths

Sideboard

1 Reclamation Sage
1 Golgari Charm
1 Garruk Relentless
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Thoughtseize
1 Crop Rotation
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Containment Priest
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Pyroclasm
1 Slaughter Games

[PCottell]

Is anyone going to GP Columbus with 4c Loam? Id love to meet up for a beer or coffee some time Friday and say hey. I have a small crew flying out with me from Portland, OR. We have a bunch of gauntlet decks to go around, and I used to live in Columbus so I know where to find all the good stuff. DM me or hit me up on Twitter at @Vanifestdestiny (the latter will be checked more often.

Good luck this weekend everyone!

[mike1987]

You realized that this is the perfect deck to play. You are a pro to me!





Thanks for the kind words sir!

1 Reclamation Sage
1 Golgari Charm
1 Garruk Relentless
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Thoughtseize
1 Crop Rotation
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Containment Priest
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Volcanic Fallout
1 Slaughter Games

Pertaining to this sideboard, what is your general gameplay and sideboard strategy towards the mirror and nic fit. I am totally lost for what to board out for mirror except maybe chalices? cause every card seems so good. For Nic Fit, i can see myself boarding in reclamation sage, swords to plowshares, garruk and thoughtseize.

[juppal]

That is really hard. I don't have any specific rules. What you can't do is keeping a hand without Turn One interaction against Fast-Combo OTD. Even you have like double Thalia, Teeg, Bob and Lands.




Thanks sir. When is the brazilian GP? You should wait for the Top 8 Lists of Prague and Columbus, someone is going to get there ;)

Garruk is a must. Bring him in whenever the games are going long. He even got better with the last release, since Shardless can't Decay him once he flipped =)
Chandra is just awesome. You have to love her. But I probably won't find a place for her next weekend.




1. The cards we are taking out are not better. Crop Rotation allows us to combo a bit faster. It is not like you need a Knight for a turn, sometimes you just draw one piece of the Combo anyways. Getting Grove or sometimes just a Wasteland might be good as well.

edit: Maze, Wastelands and the combo are THAT good against Eldrazis, yes!


2. Blood Moon and Pithing Needle. That makes it definitely better than Fire or Ooze.




I tried to think about your concerns about the manabase and the missing cycle lands. I think I managed to get to enough Black, White and Green sources, while still playing two cycle lands, the DD Combo and all the other utility lands. I am now short a red source, but I also tried to reduce the red mana symbols:

34 spell stay the same (1 DRS, 3 Loam, 1 Library)
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Wasteland
1 Secluded Steppe
1 Barren Moor
1 Forest
2 Bayou
1 Taiga
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
3 Windswept Heath
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Thespian Stage
1 Dark Depths

Sideboard

1 Reclamation Sage
1 Golgari Charm
1 Garruk Relentless
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Thoughtseize
1 Crop Rotation
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Containment Priest
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Pyroclasm
1 Slaughter Games

Some notes.

1. I tried the mana-base you suggested here and I genuinely felt that the mana-base you drafted earlier was much smoother and I actually felt that 2 Loams were much more ideal than 3 ( With the addition being the 2nd Sylvan). Honestly, Loam is just as pointless in multiples as Sylvan so there really didn't feel like a big difference. Obviously the 1 Cycle land + Horizion Canopy pushes me in this direction, but I actually feel like the Cycle lands are overrated as an engine and having a land that comes into play untapped ( Canopy) as well as having a better manabase ( Badlands ect) is really critical. Thoughts over 2 Library over 3 Loam?

2. What do you like Slaughter Games against Miracles for exactly? It feels as though this is similar to boarding in Surgical Extraction against a deck that doesn't entirely hinge upon their graveyard and therefore can be a dead card sometimes.

[NEELEY]

Is anyone going to GP Columbus with 4c Loam? Id love to meet up for a beer or coffee some time Friday and say hey. I have a small crew flying out with me from Portland, OR. We have a bunch of gauntlet decks to go around, and I used to live in Columbus so I know where to find all the good stuff. DM me or hit me up on Twitter at @Vanifestdestiny (the latter will be checked more often.

Good luck this weekend everyone!

I'll be there grinding trials, I need those byes!

[aluisiocsantos]

Thanks sir. When is the brazilian GP? You should wait for the Top 8 Lists of Prague and Columbus, someone is going to get there ;)

Garruk is a must. Bring him in whenever the games are going long. He even got better with the last release, since Shardless can't Decay him once he flipped =)
Chandra is just awesome. You have to love her. But I probably won't find a place for her next weekend.


It's on the first days of July! I'll definately look for those lists!

What do you mean about Garruk not being Decayable after flip?

Yeah I feel the only downside of Chandra is the high cost but I suppose one doesn't have a hard time getitng all the mana vs Miracles. Just watching out for that FOW.


Some notes.

2. What do you like Slaughter Games against Miracles for exactly? It feels as though this is similar to boarding in Surgical Extraction against a deck that doesn't entirely hinge upon their graveyard and therefore can be a dead card sometimes.

You mostly target Entreat the Angels. It's gotten me some insta concedes already.

[pocari79]

Some notes.

1. I tried the mana-base you suggested here and I genuinely felt that the mana-base you drafted earlier was much smoother and I actually felt that 2 Loams were much more ideal than 3 ( With the addition being the 2nd Sylvan). Honestly, Loam is just as pointless in multiples as Sylvan so there really didn't feel like a big difference. Obviously the 1 Cycle land + Horizion Canopy pushes me in this direction, but I actually feel like the Cycle lands are overrated as an engine and having a land that comes into play untapped ( Canopy) as well as having a better manabase ( Badlands ect) is really critical. Thoughts over 2 Library over 3 Loam?

Cycling lands actually function more than an engine for Loam in this deck. The cycling lands help grow Knights early on which is important. Also, relying on Horizon Canopy instead of a cycling land to draw really slows you down as you have to use up a land drop. For example, in many games, I have been able to Loam back a Wasteland and a cycling land and I can play a Wasteland, kill a land and also draw a card with the cycling land all on the same turn and repeat that over and over again. You can't do this as smoothly with Horizon Canopy. Even if you don't have a Wasteland and have a fetchland instead, you can bring back the fetchland and develop your manabase while building up cards in your hand via cycling which is also great.

The cycling lands do come into play tapped but I hardly play the cycling lands unless I really feel like I need the mana in play (usually after a mull to 5) so in my opinion, it's a really low downside compared to having a draw effect that doesn't require a land drop.

[apocolyps6]

I'm pretty firmly on 2 libraries. Library is our best way to see a bunch of cards. More importantly it prevents us from drawing cards that are dead in the matchup (or extra Mox/chalice when you don't need more).

Slaughter Games is good if you can guarantee that the opponent has no mentors. If they have no mentors they have a lower chance to win anyway. The way I play the matchup involved putting a teeg onto the board and keeping him there, so I'm biased against the card.

Canopy has less late-game upside than a cycle land, but it gives our knight another tool, as well as being better in the early game. I'm on 2 cycle 1 canopy ATM. I tend to side with whatever is better in the early game, cuz we don't need to devote more slots to winning the late game.

[Djehuti]

What do you mean about Garruk not being Decayable after flip?

Recently the rules were changed. Flip cards now retain their cmc on their flipped side. Therefore, garruk is 4 cmc on both sides and cannot be abrupt decayed.

[CutthroatCasual]

Just thought I'd drop by and say that I went to my first sanctioned event with this deck and was able to go 3-0-1 (ID into Top 4) and then split at a 15-man event last night. My other deck is Miracles and it must have taken me 2 or 3 events with that deck to get the same 3-0-1 record.

[Claymore]

What did you play against? Sideboard?

[Djehuti]

I've had the misfortune of being paired against reanimator, sneak and show, and tin fins in my last couple tournaments. Maybe leyline of the void was previously a crutch but I've missed it a couple times since i've switched to the crop rotation + bog package. Would any of you guys mind giving me critique on sideboard decisions for these matchups?

Reanimator: keep some number of abrupt decay for animate dead or for dark confidants that the opponent reanimates. chalice on 1 doesn't stop exhume or animate dead. Chalice on 2 seems too slow. I try to mulligan to T1 deathrite or scavenging ooze if possible, but crop rotation may be passable.

-4 chalice of the void
-2 punishing fire
-1 dryad arbor
-1 abrupt decay

+1 bojuka bog
+1 crop rotation
+2 thoughtseize
+3 swords to plowshares
+1 containment priest

Tin Fins: Chalice on 2 seems crippling but it'll also take a little while to get to that mana, I'd need ways of stalling the first few turns until i can drop it (this may be a poor strategy). Chalice on 1 seems insufficient as does chalice on 0. Does ethersworn canonist come in here? if so, what do i cut for it (thinking 1 chalice of the void)? Just like reanimator, i aggressively mulligan into some kind of graveyard hate or T1 interaction.

-3 abrupt decay
-2 punishing fire
-2 liliana of the veil
-1 barren moor
-1 life from the loam

+1 bojuka bog
+1 crop rotation
+2 thoughtseize
+3 swords to plowshares
+1 containment priest
+1 pithing needle

Sneak and Show: Expecting blood moon out of their sideboard so rec sage is more reliable than abrupt decay in that scenario and it also hits sneak attack if they get sloppy. My only worry is if i get blood mooned while i have karakas in play and having no instant speed answer stops me from bouncing a sneak attacked emrakul. Grave hate does nothing. I don't think i can afford to open on a tapped land so the cycle lands come out. Chalice only seems ok so i trimmed a few post board. I'm still not sure whether it is correct to drop chalice on 0 to limit their red mana sources or 1 to limit their cantrips. would love to find a containment priest in my opener, but will settle for karakas, thoughtseize, crop rotation, maybe even knight if i suspect my opponent kept something loose and i'll have time to deploy it.

-2 punishing fire
-2 abrupt decay
-1 deathrite shaman
-1 scavenging ooze
-2 chalice of the void
-1 barren moor
-1 tranquil thicket

+1 crop rotation
+2 thoughtseize
+1 pithing needle
+3 swords to plowshares
+1 thalia, guardian of thraben
+1 containment priest
+1 reclamation sage


Current sideboard:
1x the tabernacle at pendrell vale
1x bojuka bog
1x crop rotation
1x pithing needle
2x thoughtseize
3x swords to plowshares
1x golgari charm
1x thalia, guardian of thraben
1x containment priest
1x ethersworn canonist
1x reclamation sage
1x garruk relentless

[pocari79]

@Djehuti

VS Reanimator:
I would board out the Gaddock Teeg and the Life from the Loams first before boarding out any of the Chalices in general. If you are running Sylvan Library, I would board that out as well as it doesn't help you survive turns 1 and 2. I have considered boarding out all the of the Chalices when you are on the draw since playing a Chalice on 1 and then having your opponent cast Entomb in response makes Chalice really weak. I would leave in the Decays as I've had multiple reanimator opponents play a Pithing Needle naming Knight of the Reliquary. Boarding in the Thalia can't hurt either as you should have enough dead cards to take out from the maindeck.

VS Tin Fins:
I'd board in the Thalia, Canonist and Containment Priest for sure since they are a reanimator and storm hybrid type deck. I wouldn't board in the Plows as most of their reanimation spells exile the creature at the end of turn and even if you had a plow: 1) they can still draw cards with Gristlebrand and 2) you can't target Emrakul if they decide to reanimate Emrakul. I would consider boarding out all the Loams and Punishing Fires and Maze of Ith before considering any other cards.

VS Sneak Show:
I would board in the Golgari Charm for sure as it's another way to get rid of Blood Moon and Sneak Attack at instant speed. Loams are the first thing that comes out in this match as well, the games you lose won't last long enough for you to loop Loams and Wastelands. I would also board out all or go down to 1 Sylvan Library since they don't really help you survive turns 1-3. I wouldn't board out the Deathrite because it's there for the mana making ability, not the drain or the gain life abilities and you need as much mana as you can generate in the early turns to survive. You also don't want the plows for the same reason mentioned in VS Tin Fins matchup, if you have a target for the Plows, you've probably already lost the match.

Hope this helps.

[Nocley]

Overall, yes, having no Leylines definitely hurts the rarer, GY heavy strategies that we are already unfavored against. I like the Crop Rotation Package more only because you just have to sacrifice some matchups for others, and I'd rather make sure my Delver matchup , which will be super popular, is as strong as possible.

I like the SBing for Show and Tell that was on page 167. As for reanimator/tin fins, you need to keep the chalices in against both. Against Tin Fins, I've been able to play it a bunch (since for a while there were 3-4 people running it locally), and I think that Decays need to stay in as well because of the fact that Decays hit every single one of their SB threats - Serenity (which is their primary way to deal with Chalice @ 1), Mentor, Stoneforge. All of the hate bears come in against all three decks for me (Thalia, Canonist, Priest), for obvious reasons.

For Reanimator, all the P Fires and Decays come out, as well as 1 Loam and 1 Cycle Land. For Tin Fins, I like to keep the removal in (since typically they're going to go away from the combo, at least with the lists I've locally played against), so for that I do something weird like:

+ 2 Thoughtseize
+ 1 Priest
+ 1 Thalia
+ 1 Canonist
+ 2 StP
+ 1 Slaughter Games
+ 1 Rotate
+ 1 Bog
- 1 Loam
- 1 Moor
- 1 P Fire
- 3 Liliana

And the other cuts are guesses based on what I think their SB is (typically the other P Fires will be first, but I like to keep in some if I really do expect their SB plan to be creature heavy). This is one I'm very fluid on, guessing what I think they'll look like post board (sometimes I'll trim a grave hate card like Priest or even Bog, just because their plan deviates so much from the yard)

[rlesko]

Punishing fire is the first cut for me against fast combo. I just leave my decays in for any stuff out of the board liek young pyromancer and the like.

Gaddock can shut off important things like Sneak Attack and Massacre...

[Djehuti]

@pocari79

I can dig it. I definitely over valued swords, sylvan, and life from the loam here. come next week, I'll have some practice with this sideboard strategy. Thanks for the reply :)

[Nocley]

Punishing fire is the first cut for me against fast combo. I just leave my decays in for any stuff out of the board liek young pyromancer and the like.

Gaddock can shut off important things like Sneak Attack and Massacre...

The issue with P Fire against Tin Fins is that the decks (at least those using the source as a discussion/ starting point) know that they are so vulnerable to any type of hate, and have SBs adjusted accordingly. Most commonly this is a Monastery Mentor and/or a Stoneforge Mystic package. This is what I've at least come to expect, which is why I'm able to value a couple of these over Swords (though StP is still great because of that same fact - removing mentors, etc).

But yes, against traditional Reanimator or Sneak and Show, all of the fires should be boarded out, without any question.

[mike1987]

[QUOTE=Djehuti;953913]I've had the misfortune of being paired against reanimator, sneak and show, and tin fins in my last couple tournaments. Maybe leyline of the void was previously a crutch but I've missed it a couple times since i've switched to the crop rotation + bog package. Would any of you guys mind giving me critique on sideboard decisions for these matchups?

Reanimator: keep some number of abrupt decay for animate dead or for dark confidants that the opponent reanimates. chalice on 1 doesn't stop exhume or animate dead. Chalice on 2 seems too slow. I try to mulligan to T1 deathrite or scavenging ooze if possible, but crop rotation may be passable.

-4 chalice of the void
-2 punishing fire
-1 dryad arbor
-1 abrupt decay

+1 bojuka bog
+1 crop rotation
+2 thoughtseize
+3 swords to plowshares
+1 containment priest

For reanimator, definitely leave in the chalice, you will need all four of it. A chalice for one stops so many of their cantrips, entomb, thoughtseize and careful studies. I dont think they have any means to get a creature in their graveyard except for entomb, thoughtseize. Maybe hapless researcher or discarding at end step. So chalice is critical in reanimator match ups.

I would board out:

-3 punishing fire
-1 Gaddock Teeg
-2 life from the loam

+2 Thoughseize
+1 Crop rotation
+1 Bojuka Bog
+1 Containment priest
+1 Thalia/slaughter games

I personally wouldn't board in the swords. The fact that they have landed a griselbrand in play means they have already won more than half the battle.


On a separate note, if you guys have a land and Green sun's zenith in your opening hand, how often do you all search for arbor on your first turn? I find myself split between ramping up or saving the zenith for a more important search later. Barring some matchups (miracles, sneakshow, elves, storm) aside, which i will save it for gaddock teeg.

Good luck to fellow aggro loamers both in Columbus and Prague!!!

[Djehuti]

Thanks for the tips guys, really appreciate it.

On the T1 Gsz for dryad arbor:
If its game 1 against an unknown opponent, I don't think fetching dryad arbor is a good idea. gsz can swing the game in your favor if you search for the right creature but you can't know which creature is correct to tutor for until you know what your opponent is playing.

If its game 1 against a known opponent or after sideboard, you can make a judgement call if the match is going to be won on the back of mana advantage. you can set up waste lock and punishing fire lock as early as turn 2 off the back of a T1 gsz for arbor and it could be a good way to slow down delver and eldrazi if they waste a turn getting rid of it instead of deploying threats.

[CutthroatCasual]

What did you play against? Sideboard?

Played against:

Burn
UR Burn (w/ Pyro, I don't know if that's a normal list it was my first time playing against it with either of my decks)
ANT
ID against DnT (we played a match for fun but only got through 2 games, with him winning g1 and me taking g2)

My SB:

3x STP
2x Thalia
2x Dread of Night
1x Deluge
1x Pyroclasm
2x Choke
1x Rec Sage
1x Pulse
2x Revoker

Was very happy with the SB given the MUs.

[apocolyps6]

About T1 GSZ:

If GSZ is the only threat in my hand, then I of course hold it. Otherwise, I almost always fetch up dryad arbor. This allows me to play through daze, T2 a knight, play bob+waste, T2 a Teeg. Having more mana in the early turns simply gives us more options, and more powerful plays. GSZ is not quite as good as Mox Diamond, but they can serve a similar role.

[Sidneyious]

Question

I can see the interaction with loom and cycle lands but why not just run top so Bob dont kill you more?

Is the loom engine really vital to the deck?

I think I'm missing something because wouldn't goyf be a better beater than trying to pump Knight?

Sorry if this is old hat.

[apocolyps6]

@Sidneyious

You are comparing apples to oranges in each of these cases.

The deck has a bunch of lands (cycle, waste, fetch) that are good to recur with loam. It is a card advantage spell.
Top is a 1drop (so it is bad with chalice) but the correct parallel here is sylvan library, which we do play. BTW, the average cmc of the deck is ~1.

You don't need to try to pump knight. Knight is easily in the 5/5 to 7/7 range by just playing magic. Goyf does not tap to cast Crop Rotation. He is both smaller and a vanilla.

[juppal]

I'm hoping Niklas can reply to this as I'm really torn over the sideboard. I really like the Swords package, but it feels as that the Crop Rotation package is really lacking. I think Burn is a pretty obvious bad matchup, but there must be some land that makes it bearable. I think replacing the package with Leylines is also reasonable especially in an 18 Round setting where one can only take two losses to win the tournament.

I've thought about having more GSZ bullets like Melira, but they feel like a waste of space in an already reasonable matchup. On the topic of side boarding specifically in certain match ups, against Burn I cut the Loams, Sylvan(s), and Teeg and bringing in Swords for my own Knights felt reasonable.

Lastly, I'm comfortable with feeling that 1 Cycle Land and 1 Canopy encourages playing only 2 Loams and 2 Sylvans. However, the more I play, the more I feel like the Canopy should be a Bayou due to actual "fetch able" land concerns and mostly due to color considerations.

Thanks a bunch guys, I've had a lot of fun playing this deck, which is pretty rare for Magic for me these days. Win or lose, it's nice to see a community of people willing to work on something for a shared benefit.

[Djehuti]

I think Burn is a pretty obvious bad matchup, but there must be some land that makes it bearable. .

If RG lands players havent found it, i don't think it exists. Glacial chasm is the only land that even comes close and that card is terrible. If you just need to get an edge on your local meta, you could try warmth. In a large tournament, just hope to dodge it.

[Claymore]

If you want to get really weird, pages and pages back there was Nomad Stadium and Diamond Valley. Another alternative being Miren, the Moaning Well. All likely too slow and narrow, but if you can survive to untap with Knight you could potentially fetch and try to gain breathing room.

[Djehuti]

GP prague: martin juza on 4c loam vs. miracles streaming now --> https://www.twitch.tv/magic

[Fergblaster]

Went 7-2 today at GP Prague, losing a close rd 9 to Ondrej Strasky. Lots of pros on miracles. I regret cutting Chandra. Just wanted to say thank you for this great resource which was invaluable in my preparation!

[mike1987]

Went 7-2 today at GP Prague, losing a close rd 9 to Ondrej Strasky. Lots of pros on miracles. I regret cutting Chandra. Just wanted to say thank you for this great resource which was invaluable in my preparation!

Congrats on the awesome performance!

Martin Juza is 8-1 with this deck and Nicklas is 7-1-1. Keep on rocking guys!

[Nocley]

On way home from Columbus. Was never mentally there all weekend after some personal things, so my play was definitely sloppy, but results are all disappointing.

Every one of my losses between gpts Friday, main event Saturday, and Sunday series was to dnt or shardless. Shardless wasn't surprising, it was just many games where they had t1 drs or suspend, and the tempo or card advantage set them up to a point where I was always on the back foot.

Dnt is more surprising, given that I definitely felt favored before this weekend, but I just was never hitting hands with more than two mana sources, and going 0-4 means there definitely is work I could have done play wise. Really not sure how I feel boarding out Chalices in this match up, still very likely swords are better, but again, I was just always on the back foot, even if they were wasteland locked. It seemed like every match needed to have a loam, and the p fire combo.

The most lack luster card all weekend was liliana, sure it's nice to make them sac, but in the above match ups when I'm already struggling to get an advantage, ticking up and discarding even better cards made her pretty much solely an edict + a single use maze of ith.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

[apocolyps6]

If you are not liking lili, feel free to try out my list. Link in the sig. Not having to support her gives you a lot of cool stuff.

I think the recent STP addition has finally made my matchup against D&T favorable.

[pocari79]

Dnt is more surprising, given that I definitely felt favored before this weekend, but I just was never hitting hands with more than two mana sources, and going 0-4 means there definitely is work I could have done play wise. Really not sure how I feel boarding out Chalices in this match up, still very likely swords are better, but again, I was just always on the back foot, even if they were wasteland locked. It seemed like every match needed to have a loam, and the p fire combo.

The most lack luster card all weekend was liliana, sure it's nice to make them sac, but in the above match ups when I'm already struggling to get an advantage, ticking up and discarding even better cards made her pretty much solely an edict + a single use maze of ith.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

For D&T, I take out 4 Chalices and minimum 2 Mox Diamonds because of Flickerwisp alone. Also, even if you do set a Chalice on 1, it just doesn't hit that many relevant spells in their deck. The majority of their threats are all 2cc or above to begin with. I would also board out as many Lilianas as well because Phyrexian Revoker and the fact that forcing them to sac 1 creature doesn't really mean a lot when they're running like 20+ creatures. I usually just have 0-1 loam left in the deck as well since I am expecting Rest in Piece and waste locking them doesn't really mean much since you can't color screw them with Wastelands. This is also a matchup where you want a Pyroclasm type card in the sideboard since trading 1 for 1 with D&T is difficult if they have an active Mother of Runes. I also board out the Maze of Ith in this matchup since they can just Port it as well as Waste it which makes it a miserable card.

[Claymore]

I think Liliana is still very good against them. On a blind T2 Revoker, they'll name Liliana because of how much havoc she can cause for them. She can also force their hand with Vial activations. She's not perfect because they do go so wide, but she can cause a lot of headaches for sure.

Likewise, Maze is just an additional tool against them that they have to answer. Often times I have to crawl back and stabilize in the mid/late game, and Maze is crucial for that to defend against their fliers. They may have Port, but we have Wasteland as well, and Loam to dig it back from their wastelands. Rest in Peace is the big problem card they bring in.

I board in:

1 Golgari Charm
3 Swords
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Tabernacle (sweeper of your choice)

Board out:

4 Chalice
1 Teeg
1 Scooze/Liliana

[PCottell]

Hey everyone,
Congrats to everyone here who did well with the deck this past weekend. No top 8's unfortunately, but solid enough performances to keep the dream of 4c Loam alive. I've had excellent local results with the deck up to this point- 5 top 8s of a monthly open series in Seattle, a GPT win, etc. I'm not a pro by any means, but I'd like to think I'm an above average pilot of the deck by now.

Anywho, I competed in GP Columbus this weekend and went 9-6 after all was said and done. My first day two of a legacy GP was super exciting, and I was only one W away from a pro point. Had some real bummer losses to D&T and Shardless, but the former was due to a loose keep and the latter was due to him having the nuts. It's important to understand that even a good hand in this deck can't match up with the raw card advantage and big dumb vanilla beaters that Shardless employs. I ravaged the deck two times earlier in the tournament, so I felt ok with it. I didn't get paired against Burn or Belcher all weekend, which was great- both are really terrible matchups that give me the feeldbads like no other. I played really tight for the most part, and only punted away two matches- one against Storm and one against D&T (the aforementioned greedy keep on the draw with 1 land, 1 mox and 5 removal spells, only one of which was an STP)

Rather than dole out a report, I'll share a few thoughts on the card selection and matchups. My list was based on the 61 Nikolas shared a few pages back when folks were discussing Sneak and Show (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?16436-Deck-Aggro-Loam&p=952510&viewfull=1#post952510), with a couple minor swaps: I ran 1 Plateau in lieu of the 2nd Scrubland to have more access to red mana for Volcanic Fallout from the SB (in place of Pyroclasm; more on this later), and my fetch setup was 4 Windswept Heaths and 2 Verdant Catacombs. Here we go:

-The shift away from Leyline into an SB with 3 STP, 1 Crop rotation, etc. is everything we've needed to get the edge in creature matchups. Having that turn one removal spell to answer a Mom, Delver (which I never actually saw, but it's Delver- you can't ignore it) or opposing Deathrite Shaman was crucial to many of my wins. It's also the only way to deal with Goyf before you're getting whapped on by too many other guys for Liliana to dig you out. I would not have beaten Shardless twice and D&T once- both matches being sad, one-sided blowouts- without access to STP. Chalice isn't totally dead vs Shardless, but their plan is to run out as many threats as they can before you waste their manabase into oblivion and deploy Liliana or P Fire + Grove.

-Stealing wins with having the combo main got me out of many sticky situations- far more than the amount of times I mulliganed away hands that had Depths as one of the only "lands" in hand. It's best to not keep those even if you have a diamond and think it'll get you there, because you still have a chance of getting blown out and you've given away info about the combo. The mystery of whether or not you're running it is a valuable asset. The one Shardless player I lost to brought in a Submerge, but this is not common from what I know. They have NO answer to Marit Lage. They're trying to grind, but you don't have time for that so kill them in one turn and move on.

-For the above reason, Crop Rotation is an auto-include vs any combo deck for the obvious reason of closing out the game faster than them while they durdle with cantrips to find the kill, but also because Blood Moon is an obvious problem. It's a good card to hang on to when you're unsure of whether or not it's about to come down. I lost a match vs Painter in a grinder on Friday, but I did steal game two by Crop Rotating away a Grove for a basic Forest to fix my mana in response to a Blood Moon hitting the table.

-Volcanic Fallout won me three games that a Pyroclasm would not have. Vs D&T I was staring down a board state that was 1 Thalia, 2 Moms, a Crusader carrying a Jitte with 0 counters, and a Revoker on Knight. My manabase was fully developed and I had a handful of removal, but the instant speed of Fallout was backbreaking when a bunch of Mom activations were on the stack. I would've died the next turn. I also stole a game against Dredge with Fallout in a similar situation. I never had trouble getting to the double red it required.

-I only drew Slaughter Games once vs combo, and it sat in my hand while I swung away with a Teeg and a Thalia. Not entirely sold on this card. It seems too slow to interact with really fast combo decks. I get that it might be good vs miracles because you can name Entreat (their scariest threat) or StP or Terminus, but I'd rather have access to a cheaper form of interaction with a broader range of uses. What that is, I don't know. Considering either Maelstrom Pulse or Revoker here. Revoker can be swords, but it keeps them from finding it with Top, and I'm ok with it eating a removal spell and landing Teeg shortly after. I didn't play a single match vs Miracles all weekend, but I feel like we have enough tools to grind that one out without hoping to luck in to getting the Entreats out of their deck before they get one off. I play in the Pacific Northwest, which is home to A LOT of Miracles players, a handful of them being very proficient with the deck. I've learned a lot from them and have fared well in this matchup. Any good Miracles player knows an early Entreat for 2 or 3 can be all the pressure they need to close out the game before we can stabilize. Would Virtue's Ruin be too much of a reach here? It's a 3-drop which is a relatively weak spot for Counterbalance. It kills our Teeg and Knights, but there's a good chance you're winning if Teeg has stuck. It's also a complete blowout vs D&T, which we've all unanimously concluded is a matchup that looks good on paper but is actually very loseable if you're one removal spell short at that crucial moment.

-I played one of my last rounds on day 2 vs the mirror. The fellow I was paired against made Top 8 of the Legacy event at the SCG Invitational in Columbus a month ago, so he's no slouch. Turns out StP is very good here. I won game one by getting Loam online before him, but game two was closer at the onset. He deployed a Bob on his second turn that would've been a huge problem is I didn't Swords it right away. He had P Fire + Grove going on, but I had a Knight and a Crop Rotation that closed out the match very abruptly. I felt shitty about the lopsided nature of the game- it sucks watching your brethren be on the receiving end of a Loam lock and a Marit Lage token, respectively- but it gave me an even better feeling about the new sideboard. Seriously folks, put Swords in your board. It's one of the top 5 most-played Legacy cards for a reason.

-In regards to the argument of what amount of Thalia and Canonists should be in your board, I've been converted to 2 Thalia/0 Canonist camp, mainly because the addition of Swords shores up the Elves match-up well enough that Canonist doesn't seem necessary here. All it's doing is buying time until you burn through all their creatures and combo kill them. Canonist gets hit with rec sage, which they always seem to draw naturally after adding one more post-board. Her performance vs Storm and Infect is close enough to that of Canonist, plus she's better vs a lot more decks. I sided her in on the play vs Shardless and Stoneblade, and it was brutal for them. They're usually not aggressive enough to go all in on landing a threat and wastelanding you to put you on the back foot, so the upside of slowing down their cantrips and removal is usually greater than the downside of making your own removal a little slower. A lot of the times her and one well-timed Wasteland is GG. I wouldn't bring it in vs RUG or BUG Delver because it slows down those key removal spells, but it may be good vs Grixis, which is highly susceptible to getting their manabase screwed with. I need to test this. Thoughts?

-People are playing Sneak and Show again. This bothers me. I beat it once in a very close match that would not have gone my way without the combo, and lost to it once when he sided in Omniscience and got me with Cunning Wish into whatever card it is that costs 5UR, has a dragon on it, and searches for some shit. It was Japanese and I had no answers on board so I scooped. I also mulled to five on the play that game. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

-For whatever reason, some folks are keeping the Stoneblade dream alive. TNN is worrisome, but the "newer" (circa 2013) lists rely on Deathrite to compensate for running 0 basics. I get that these folks are hanging on to a deck they paid a lot of money for that's theoretically OK vs everything, but Loam is still bonkers vs them. I'd be worried if people reverted to the older, slower lists with basics, another Jace, and maybe the Intuition/Snap/Souls package, but that doesn't appear to be happening anytime soon. That being said, don't keep Chalice in vs them. Swords their Deathrites, Thoughtseize their bigger threats, waste their Tundras and go over the top with Marit Lage.

-Went 1-1 vs Dredge. On the same token that sideboarding unsearchable answers for Burn like Warmth and CoP: Red is a bad idea, I don't think bringing Leyline back for this matchup is really worth it. You have enough stuff to make this matchup winnable. It's a combo deck- sometimes you have it, sometimes you don't.

##################

All in all, a very fun weekend. I enjoy the intricacy and interaction of the deck, and know we have far more good matchups than bad if you know what you're doing and have the correct sideboard plan. But we all know this.

Any epic stories from this weekend? Did anyone successfully cast a Chandra, Flamecaller vs Miracles this weekend? What's your opinion on a substitution for Slaughter Games?

Good luck out there, Loamers!

-Pete Cottell

[PetesMcskeets]

Went 12-3 at gp columbus, 39th place. Lost a Heartbreakers in Rd 15. I couldn't top 8 but I would have gotten 9th.

[PCottell]

Went 12-3 at gp columbus, 39th place. Lost a Heartbreakers in Rd 15. I couldn't top 8 but I would have gotten 9th.

Well done! What were you running in the sideboard?

[DaDitka]

Went 10-5 at Columbus. The deck felt great. Having the DD + Thespian's Stage combo maindeck was very useful, although I did board it out a few times.

I ran 3 Leyline's and was happy with them, although they do take up lots of slots. They seem key to me in the mirror and against lands, dredge, reanimator, and storm (so much stuff to come out and it can really limit their optuons). I'll need to test more with crop + bog to see how the mirror and lands matchup feels without leyline.

Of my 5 losses, 3 were to Shardless. I also only played against shardless three times, so I had a 0% win percentage against them this weekend.

In my testing, it seemed that Shardless was a 50-50 matchup.

Generally, I sided like this:

+3 STP
+1 Toxic Deluge
+1 Arlinn Kord (she was good in testing and over the weekend I tried to resolve her four times, each time she ate a force of will)
+1 Garruk

-4 Chalice
-1 Teeg
-1 Karakas

In addition the above, on the play I often brought in two thoughtseize and took out two mox diamonds.

The SB plan seemed solid, but every time I just got buried in card advantage, even if I got the loam engine going. Should I be trying to keep 2 or 3 chalice to drop on zero to stop visions? It seems no as they have ways to remove it but I don't know.

Any tips or pointers to coverage of the matchup would be most appreciated.

Unfortunately I never played Miracles all weekend, which is a bit of a bummer. There was lots of grixis delver to feed ok though, so that was great.

The good news is the deck still seems excellently positioned and very powerful. The inclusion of STP in the board is a nice innovation and only makes the deck better.

[apocolyps6]

Congrats on the finishes.

About the Slaughter games question:

Phyrexian revoker is live against Miracles. Usually in a bigger way than Slaughter games. The deck often relies on spinning top to make lands drops in the early game, and to find answers to other cards. You can name LED against Storm, and Petal/Belcher/Undercity Informer/etc against fast combo.
It also importantly shuts off S&S strongest card against us by naming Sneak Attack.

I am also interested in finding good sideboard cards for Shardless.

Edit: Preferably one we are not all already playing

[rlesko]

I am also interested in finding good sideboard cards for Shardless.

Swords to plowshares.

[TLK]

I top 8'd this event yesterday:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?30703-Los-Angeles-CA-Knight-Ware-06-12-2016-20-25-Trop-Tundra&p=954456&viewfull=1#post954456

My 2 losses were to Stoneforge decks - the deck that placed 1/2 during round 4 of Swiss, and the D&T deck that placed 3rd during the Top 8. It was my first time piloting the list, so I wasn't sure what typical matchups were like, but the Stoneforge-based decks seemed rough. Batterskull in particular was a pain. I understand we have Abrupt Decay for Jitte and random Sword of X&Ys, but it's possible I just couldn't find the right answers in time. Is it just me, or are these types of matchups unfavorable? I definitely want to find room for a Maelstrom Pulse in the board, as it's also a good answer to a resolved Jace.

[PetesMcskeets]

Well done! What were you running in the sideboard?

2 Thalia
3 stp
1 toxic deluge
1 golgari charm
3 leyline of the void
1 phyrexian revoker
1 containment priest
2 thoughtseize
1 reclamation sage

[Pilhas]

Got 10-5 at GP Prague after starting 8-1 :(
I'll do a report of the event with the sb that I made since I have all written down.

[Fergblaster]

I dropped after losing my first three rounds of Day 2 in Prague. Round 10 I cast three spells in the match due to mulligans/unfortunate draws. Round 11 at X-3 I lose to Ivan Floch playing Miracles - I hear he's a good control player. :tongue: Round 12 I face burn. Game one I mulligan and don't know what my opponent is on so keep an OK looking value hand, and quicky lose to his grip full of 3 damage spells. Game two I mulligan to six and find Chalice and Thalia, and my opponent draws all of his Price of Progress and Fireblast.

I am really torn about the Dark Depths combo in the main. It does give us outs to otherwise unwinnable games, but at the expense of consistent mana. Liliana often felt impossible to cast and I often drew a second copy with one festering in my hand.

I played a Maelstrom Pulse MB in one of the flex slots (some play 2x Sylvan Library, I only had one). It was pretty good. I definitely expected to face more Eldrazi decks than I did though. I also didn't play against anything oddball or unknown all weekend. My opponents were on:-

3x Miracles (Larsson, Strasky, Floch)
2x Storm
1x Shardless
1x Burn
1x 4c Delver
1x Eldrazi
1x Punishing Jund

[Aberosh1819]

Just dropping in my results / thoughts from the GPCOL weekend.
- I ran a list w/ 1x Deathrite, 2x Library, DD/Stage, 3 Lili
- Board was standard core and: 3x Leyline, 1 Thalia, 1 Priest, 1 Pyroclasm, 1 Chandra (never drew her, really wanted her against Jund / Miracles)
- Pyroclasm should have been Volcanic Fallout, and would have gotten me two additional G3 wins (BURG and D&T).

1. Was great to accidentally meet PCottell on Friday. Grind on!

2. I played abysmally over the weekend. Unclear if it was the awful travel / sleep schedule, or if I've really just fallen off in ability due to lack of reps since GPSEA last year.
Overall weekend record: 7-10

Grinder #1:
Lost to Storm (guessed wrong on G1 Chalice, then again on G2 Chalice)

Grinder #2:
Beat: Junk Pox, Mask-Naught
Lost to Elves (roommate, first loss to him in a LONG time)

Main Event:
Beat: Stoneblade, UR Delver
Lost to: Punishing Jund x2, BURG Delver

SSS:
Beat: UR Delver, Punishing Jund (!!!), Bye
Lost to: Lands, D&T, BURG Delver, Miracles, Infect

Evidence of sloppy play was in full effect on my part, and I don't believe that any of the losses are actually bad match-ups.
Elves: For some reason, I put the second chalice on 2 instead of dropping a second on 1. His Cavern let him slowly play through while I bricked.
Lands: I generally feel favored in this match-up, and felt that I was playing decently in this one, but Tireless Tracker got me low and a Molten Vortex finished me off. Made the mistake of dropping a Chalice on 2 before a Chalice on 1 in order to hold up StP against Lage. That got him to 35, but I then couldn't land a Chalice on 1 to prevent the Vortex from coming in. Maybe not a misplay, but it felt like it.
BURG Delver: Not clear where I went wrong as we had OUTSTANDING games.
Miracles: I didn't PFire down Jace. Just straight up forgot to.

Thoughts:
1. The only match in which I was able to beat Punishing Jund was the final match, which was the only match which didn't feature Bloodbraid Elf getting value against me.
- Do other folks struggle in this one? All of their removal lines up very well against us. I struggled to stick a Knight through Hymn / Thoughtseize / Abrupt Decay, and the rest of my dudes kept dying to bolts.
2. I need more reps. I went into this without getting nearly the amount of practice I needed to, and I could see situations which could easily have been managed with better preparation.
- Looks like I'll be "scheduling" time on MODO since getting to paper events doesn't work with my work schedule.

Overall? Had a blast, and am more excited than I was before to finish pimping this and playing it more.

[Pilhas]

For anyone who want to read how it went http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?30767-140th-at-GP-Prague-with-Knight-Depths(4C-Loam)&p=954836#post954836

[CutthroatCasual]

For D&T, I take out 4 Chalices and minimum 2 Mox Diamonds because of Flickerwisp alone. Also, even if you do set a Chalice on 1, it just doesn't hit that many relevant spells in their deck. The majority of their threats are all 2cc or above to begin with. I would also board out as many Lilianas as well because Phyrexian Revoker and the fact that forcing them to sac 1 creature doesn't really mean a lot when they're running like 20+ creatures. I usually just have 0-1 loam left in the deck as well since I am expecting Rest in Piece and waste locking them doesn't really mean much since you can't color screw them with Wastelands. This is also a matchup where you want a Pyroclasm type card in the sideboard since trading 1 for 1 with D&T is difficult if they have an active Mother of Runes. I also board out the Maze of Ith in this matchup since they can just Port it as well as Waste it which makes it a miserable card.

After speaking with a very, very good DnT player, he said that on the play keeping in Chalice is strong as it offers the possibility of locking out their Vial, Mom, and STP. On the draw, though, taking out some number of them (he said 2) along with some number of Mox Diamonds is correct.

My point is, I don't think taking out all Chalices against DnT is correct.

[apocolyps6]

I was on the 0 chalice plan for a while. I'm still mostly there.

Your friend is probably more used to playing Eldrazi, MUD, and stompy decks where T1 challice is a much more frequent occurrence They have enough ways to get 2 mana on turn 1 that they only need to mull to chalice. We need to have exactly chalice + mox to play one on turn 1, so having a 6+ card hand with a chalice in it is not that likely.

Chalice is always good against STP, but if we give the opponent a turn and they play mom/vial, then they don't need redundant copies of that card. We get value by making all of those potential draws blanks, but the second mom/vial is waay worse than the first anyway. That is why I think a turn 2 chalice is not good enough against the deck.

Then there is the argument that once they get to 3+ mana, they are able to flicker the chalice, and dump their 1drops, making any follow-up chalice basically useless.

Then there is the matter of the 1drops we bring in, 3 STP is auto include. So if we don't see mox+chalice in the opener and they lead with vial, we can play this 2drop that turns off 4 of their good cards and 3 of ours. Redundant and late chalices are also often dead draws because it is really hard to take time off to cast a 2 mana non-creature spell that does not interact with the board against D&T.

Maybe before STP there was an argument to keep 1-2 in, but in recent testing I've been beating D&T pretty easily. So much so that I'm strongly considering cutting Dread of Night (a while back I would have said that they are one of our worst matchups)


Edit: By the way, I've had some free time recently and I've started recording myself playing the deck (https://youtu.be/cnNPIDgnJ-o). My goal is to play all the matchups people say are bad

[pocari79]

After speaking with a very, very good DnT player, he said that on the play keeping in Chalice is strong as it offers the possibility of locking out their Vial, Mom, and STP. On the draw, though, taking out some number of them (he said 2) along with some number of Mox Diamonds is correct.

My point is, I don't think taking out all Chalices against DnT is correct.

In this matchup post board, your sideboard cards should be taking care of Vial and Mom already so you don't need the Chalice on 1 to get rid of those cards. There has been too many games where I play a turn 1 or 2 Chalice on 1 and then proceed to lose because they just keep on playing 2cc and 3cc threats and I couldn't deal with it because I was drawing useless Chalices.

This is just my preference though. For example, I feel like I'm the only person on this thread who dislikes to have the Dark Depths combo in the 75 and I've actually had better results when I'm not running the Dark Depths combo so I'm going to stick with what works for me. If you are having positive results with Chalices postboard in this match, then that's great. I'm only giving advice on what has worked best for me.

[TLK]

In this matchup post board, your sideboard cards should be taking care of Vial and Mom already so you don't need the Chalice on 1 to get rid of those cards. There has been too many games where I play a turn 1 or 2 Chalice on 1 and then proceed to lose because they just keep on playing 2cc and 3cc threats and I couldn't deal with it because I was drawing useless Chalices.

This is just my preference though. For example, I feel like I'm the only person on this thread who dislikes to have the Dark Depths combo in the 75 and I've actually had better results when I'm not running the Dark Depths combo so I'm going to stick with what works for me. If you are having positive results with Chalices postboard in this match, then that's great. I'm only giving advice on what has worked best for me.

I tend to agree with this. I lost to D&T in the top 8 of an event last weekend, and Chalice didn't do much if you couldn't land it turn 1. Even if/when you do land it for 1, they just start dropping Thalia/Stoneforge/Avenger/Crusader/Flicker/etc, as pocari stated.

I'm not sold on the Depths package in the main or board. It won me a single game in the tournament, but other than that, I was torn on siding it in vs siding out Chalice.

[mike1987]

I top 8'd this event yesterday:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?30703-Los-Angeles-CA-Knight-Ware-06-12-2016-20-25-Trop-Tundra&p=954456&viewfull=1#post954456

My 2 losses were to Stoneforge decks - the deck that placed 1/2 during round 4 of Swiss, and the D&T deck that placed 3rd during the Top 8. It was my first time piloting the list, so I wasn't sure what typical matchups were like, but the Stoneforge-based decks seemed rough. Batterskull in particular was a pain. I understand we have Abrupt Decay for Jitte and random Sword of X&Ys, but it's possible I just couldn't find the right answers in time. Is it just me, or are these types of matchups unfavorable? I definitely want to find room for a Maelstrom Pulse in the board, as it's also a good answer to a resolved Jace.

I dont think stoneblade are tough decks for us cause in the end we will find inevitability with punishing fire for their batterskull and jace. Chalice for one helps a lot in locking out their key spells like brainstorm, swords to plowshares, lightning bolts (if they are on UWR), discards (if they are on esper). The only problem i foresee is them chaining TNN and equipping it with batterskull or jitte. Perhaps then you can race them with the depths combo if you are playing it.

[PCottell]

I dont think stoneblade are tough decks for us cause in the end we will find inevitability with punishing fire for their batterskull and jace. Chalice for one helps a lot in locking out their key spells like brainstorm, swords to plowshares, lightning bolts (if they are on UWR), discards (if they are on esper). The only problem i foresee is them chaining TNN and equipping it with batterskull or jitte. Perhaps then you can race them with the depths combo if you are playing it.

I faced Stoneblade pretty late in GP Columbus- round 12 maybe. It was not close. Game 1 I got a Loam lock going very quickly, hit an SFM and a DRS with Punishing Fire and he never really had a chance. Game two I kept a sketchy hand and he Thoughtseized my Sylvan Library so I was stuck in topdeck mode and lost to a TNN with a Batterskull. Game three he got an early RiP which took out a fetch, a Grove and a P Fire, but I got it with a Rec Sage, got Lili and Loam online, and steamrolled him in short order after that. The key to this matchup is keeping them off double blue for TNN. I always hit Tundras because it keeps them off Swords as well. Chalice on one is pretty good, but don't go in to game two thinking it's an autowin. This is a grindy matchup that requires any incremental advantage you can get. Like the Shardless matchup, you need quality topdecks and card advantage here. I take two Chalices out, as well as a couple moxes, because 2-for-1'ing yourself is pretty bad in any stage of the game past turn 3. We want the Loam engine going here as quickly as possible. They'll probably bring in Surgical Extraction, so save those cycle lands to use in response to that or other graveyard hate. Don't decay Jitte right away if it doesn't have a guy to equip- save it for RiP or other GY interaction, then keep them off the mana they need to cast Jace and TNN, which are really their only trump cards. They might try to clique the Loam out of your hand, so look out for that. The combo is a good way to slam the door on this matchup, as they will be on the backfoot with mana most of the game and probably won't be in good enough shape to be using one of their three Wastelands on your Stage or whatever. Don't bother playing around FoW- if they keep some amount of those in, well they're probably not very good at this game. I'll take them 2-for-1'ing themselves all day long.

Regarding D&T: I faced this matchup three times on the weekend. Lost once to a pretty bad player who drew what seemed like all his revokers every game and a bunch of Flickerwisps, then beat a decent player and a very good player the other two times. I really don't like the idea of keeping in Chalice- unless we're on the play and jam it t1, it's just terrible. You should be bringing in 2 Thoughtseize, 3 StP and 1 Crop Rotation in the matchup, all of which are much better than keeping them off their own StP and that early Vial. You can turn the corner quickly and come back from very little life in this matchup- once you have a board state with Lili and some way to keep her from getting whapped with fliers you'll gain inevitability and cruise to victory. Thoughtseize is great in this matchup, as they often try to hoard creatures in their hand until they can deploy all of them at once to swarm you out. It grabs equipment too, which is great. Taking moxes out might seem like a plausible idea because it sucks when they get Flickerwisped, but I would gladly let them hit a mox instead of a Lili that's about to ultimate or a blocker when a sword is about to trigger. Don't keep a hand that doesn't have at least one hard removal spell like StP or Decay. Luckily the color of our removal gets more diverse here so an Mom can be tolerated for a while until we pull a sweeper. I really liked Volcanic Fallout being instant speed in this matchup, especially when they are trying to use Mom to prevent some amount of carnage and Port to keep you off the red. In the 7 total games I played vs D&T, not once did they use Wasteland to keep me behind on mana. It was more frequently used to get a Maze or Karakas off the table. So keep that in mind- you interact with and potentially strain their mana enough that unless they have an active Vial on 2 or 3 in play, they're probably either saving their lands to cast spells, or they're bricking their draws and dropping one Plains after the next, which is a good situation for us (and the reason why I quit playing that deck) about 85% of the time.

[TLK]

Perhaps I just drew poorly against the Stoneblade deck, but TNN with an equipment is rough.

I went 1-2 last night. Lost in 4 games (yes, 4) to UR Delver, which is typically an OK matchup aside from Price of Progress, which he top decked in game 4 the turn before I would've won.

Round 2 beat Landstill fairly easily. Recurring Wastelands for all of his land creatures make it a breeze.

Round 3 lost 0-2 to Storm. He Duress'd my Chalice game 1 then went off. Game 2 I mulled to a mediocre hand and lost on turn 2. I really dislike playing against Storm. I don't even get to play Magic. I just sit there and watch. Sigh.

[Claymore]

Would Sylvan Safekeeper be worthwhile testing? A lot of people are cutting Deathrite Shaman, Safekeeper can protect critical targets like Teeg, Marit Lage, and Knight, and we can recur lands with Loam to get around his cost. It can also let us reuse Bojuka Bog and cycle lands that were played earlier in the game.

[apocolyps6]

@PCottell

If your D&T opponents are not using their LD against our 4 color mana intensive deck (which can't rely on moxen anymore), then it is only polite to buy them a drink after the game. Just make sure the judge doesn't think it is collusion/bribery :p

[Claymore]

Thoughtseize is great in this matchup, as they often try to hoard creatures in their hand until they can deploy all of them at once to swarm you out.

...

In the 7 total games I played vs D&T, not once did they use Wasteland to keep me behind on mana.

Yeah...my friend is a very good D&T player...to be honest I wouldn't take much out of those games. They definitely shouldn't be trying to storm out their creatures. D&T needs to provide early and constant pressure to overwhelm our removal. T1 Vial, T2 Waste/Mom + Thalia, T3 Waste or Port, SFM/Revoker, T4 Flickerwisp/Crusader, etc. Giving us time to stabilize and grow our mana (without Wasteland pressure) is a terrible mistake on their part.

I would not bring in Thoughtseize. D&T is very much a hellbent deck, and while Thoughtseize can prevent their Vial tricks, it's not a good use of the slot.

[Djehuti]

Yeah...my friend is a very good D&T player...to be honest I wouldn't take much out of those games. They definitely shouldn't be trying to storm out their creatures. D&T needs to provide early and constant pressure to overwhelm our removal. T1 Vial, T2 Waste/Mom + Thalia, T3 Waste or Port, SFM/Revoker, T4 Flickerwisp/Crusader, etc. Giving us time to stabilize and grow our mana (without Wasteland pressure) is a terrible mistake on their part.

I would not bring in Thoughtseize. D&T is very much a hellbent deck, and while Thoughtseize can prevent their Vial tricks, it's not a good use of the slot.

I have to politely disagree with you here. It might be lackluster late game, but it has way more impact than any of the 9 cards I'd be boarding out in this matchup. I would also argue that the tempo of the first few turns is so critical that thoughtseize is justified. Thoughtseize can can be the compliment to your removal by taking the thing that you are least equipped to deal with. Rest in Peace and Absolute law are very annoying cards to play against that i'd like to have more answers for in the early game since inevitability is on our side with punishing fire lock.

If finding worse cards to cut in the main is the issue, it may just be a difference in build. deathrite shaman seems like an easy cut but not everyone plays em. Here's how I'd board:

In:
3x swords to plowshares
1x garruk relentless
1x reclamation sage
1x golgari charm
1x pithing needle
2x thoughseize

Out:
4x chalice of the void
1x deathrite shaman
1x scavenging ooze
1x gaddock teeg
2x mox diamond

[Digitend89]

Hi guys long time lurker. Read a lot of different thread on The Source and went reaminimator-->miracles-->and finally aggro loam (maybe deathblade). Good thing I listened to that always proxy advice...Anyways, I was watching all the aggro loam videos I could get my lands on and GP Prague was a huge help, but the only part I could not wrap my head around was when to dredge for loam. I would cringe every time a Lili or a knight got put into the graveyard. If I got it right from reading this thread, its better to get guaranteed value like recurring wastelands or cycle lands than something you could have drawn next turn or a few turn later?

[apocolyps6]

The general rule for dredging is to leave the loam in the yard if there is nothing you want already in there. If you assume that you mill no good targets, is Loam still a good draw for you in this situation?

There is a bunch of corner cases (5+ mana and a cycle land, ooze and low life total, ooze/knight and opponent 1 life away, need to draw pfire exactly this turn, clearing the top of the deck after sylvan library)

[pocari79]

Went a miserable 3-3 yesterday. Ran the following list:

4 Verdant Catacomb
4 Wasteland
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
1 Savannah
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Windswept Heath
1 Barren Moor
1 Secluded Steppe
1 Forest
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire
3 Life from the Loam
2 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Vindicate
4 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Sylvan Library
3 Liliana of the Veil

3 Leyline of the Void
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Thoughtseize
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Containment Priest
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Golgari Charm
1 Volcanic Fallout
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal

Won against UR Delver, BG Turbo Dark Depths and Elves. Lost against Infect twice and Elves. Feel that post board, the mana just gets really stretched if I don't get a Mox Diamond early and that's probably due to my sideboard choices. It felt really difficult to fetch for the right lands to get GB, W, R, RR, BB and BW in the early game as the removal suite postboard. I had multiple games where I just had some removal stuck in my hand cause I didn't have the right mana to cast it even though I had fetchlands. So I'll definitely have to change some of the sideboard choices.

Was trying out the one Vindicate for fun and I was able to kill a relevant land so I think I'll keep it in the main. I like having the ability to kill a planeswalker without relying on recurring Punishing Fire. The badlands also felt super bad whenever I saw it in my hand and I never wanted to fetch it, I think I want a Plateau in it's place. I'd need to change the fetchlands around though in order to consistently fetch for the Plateau.

[ironclad8690]

Man, I have been losing a lot to UR Delver.

I know, I know "Chalice this, Chalice that".

It is a rare circumstance that you can resolve Chalice unmolested.

They are all playing 4 Price of Progress and Stormchaser doesn't die to p fire. Anyone else having trouble with this matchup?

Anyone have any tips for the matchup?

[btm10]

Man, I have been losing a lot to UR Delver.

I know, I know "Chalice this, Chalice that".

It is a rare circumstance that you can resolve Chalice unmolested.

They are all playing 4 Price of Progress and Stormchaser doesn't die to p fire. Anyone else having trouble with this matchup?

Anyone have any tips for the matchup?

It's not a great matchup since they're basically Burn with counterspells in my experience. With Shardless and Jund I've found Tombstalker to be the best card against them since he doesn't die to Bolt alone or trade with Delver and Stormchaser Mage the way Strix does. Unfortunately Stalker isn't a great fit for Loam since it's not GSZ-able, but the list of playable GSZ targets with Flying or Reach is pretty short. Plows might just better tha Chalice in the matchup, especially with the addition of some incidental lifegain + value creature like Courser or Kitchen Finks?

[ironclad8690]

I was thinking about trying lightning helix in the plow slot, because at least it doesnt nonbo with chalice. Other considerations are journey to nowhere, orzhov charm, darigaaz and rith's charms, fiery justice, and a ton of lifelink stuff (i just like these).

Sideboard Chandra isn't necessary for me, might replace with Choke or Ajani Vengeant, or mentor of heroes.

[apocolyps6]

Have you tried jamming (T2) knight into marit lage? That usually gets the job done against that kind of deck.

The last time I played the local UR Delver guy something like 5 months ago, but he insisted I was his worst matchup. This was before the Stormchaser Mage + 4 PoP builds.

It would be helpful if you can give play-by-play for a couple games. Are you playing around PoP? Does he force each of your haymakers every time? etc etc

[ironclad8690]

I have only played 1 match with my new sideboard, but Lightning Helix was freaking awesome! (match was against Grixis Delver).

The life swing is huge in these aggressive/midrange matchups. I was feeling the pressure of an uncontested Delver while I struggled to hit my land drops g2 & 3 (after he used most of his resources finding wastelands and wasting me).

Once I found the mana it felt like cheating, because I got to kill his threat and essentially Time Walk him. It also helps to make up for lost life from Bob and Toxic Deluge (which I am running now too).

I boarded out my 2 Loams, 2 libraries, 2 Bobs, and 1 Teeg for 3 Helix, 1 G Charm, 1 Toxic, 1 Engineered Plague, and 1 Choke.

The Helixes aren't as good vs Eldrazi, but I think they will still be fine there too because it often comes down to a race or weird standoff board state.

Knight into Marit often feels too slow in this sort of matchup to me, and playing around PoP is super hard with a bunch of bomby 3 drops. I leave up Wasteland when I can, but sometimes you feel the heat and have to walk into their Dazes/tap out into PoP.

As an aside, how has your Stirring Wildwood been @Apocalyps6? I really want to include a manland into my build, and I am leaning towards Stirring or Shambling.

[apocolyps6]

The Wildwood is great in my build (I have much less of a black requirement)

It threatens to eat delvers and other legacy-sized creatures in case you flood out. It hits for just enough to kill Jace.

In terms of manlands in general, you can use them to "beat" removal targetting knight. They are good recurrable threats in the super grindy games.

[Pilhas]

I was thinking about trying lightning helix in the plow slot, because at least it doesnt nonbo with chalice. Other considerations are journey to nowhere, orzhov charm, darigaaz and rith's charms, fiery justice, and a ton of lifelink stuff (i just like these).

Sideboard Chandra isn't necessary for me, might replace with Choke or Ajani Vengeant, or mentor of heroes.

Using helix instead of swords is the same mistake as using hymns instead of thoughtseize. You are using 1CMC cards because you need early interaction, if you are putting in 2 CMC you still lose for fast opening.

[DudeItsCorey]

Using helix instead of swords is the same mistake as using hymns instead of thoughtseize. You are using 1CMC cards because you need early interaction, if you are putting in 2 CMC you still lose for fast opening.

Not to mention the matchups that you're bringing in swords, you're boarding out chalice. I typically wouldn't board into swords in a delver matchup, because 6-8 removal (not including Liliana) should be plenty for a delver deck. I only really board Swords to Plowshares in against D&T, Eldrazi and Shardless Bug, where it's so midrangy that chalice for 1 doesn't really do a whole lot.

[ironclad8690]

3 Decays, 3 P Fire and 3 Lili has NOT been doing it for me. You really have to answer Delver and Pyro immediately, and it isnt very hard for them to counter the knights and win with angler.

Maybe those slots are better as something else because I do enjoy chalice vs the delvers, but more removal is a must have for me.

[Pilhas]

There is not a problem with playing chalice and swords at the same time.
Think like this, if you resolve a chalice@1 you have 3 swords dead, they have 20 cards dead.
If you don't resolve a chalice you have early interaction.

Also don't be afraid to take some beats from delver if need be. The problems are usually pyro tokens or angler(can't decay).

[ironclad8690]

Well, finished 3-2 in my league today making:

2-3 (first time playing the deck, punted at least 1 game away)
4-1
3-2
3-2

My matches for this one were:

Shardless 1-2
Shardless: 1-2
Sneak and Show: 2-1
Grixis Delver: 2-1
Manaless Dredge: 2-1

I see what you guys mean about the Swords to Plowshares. The Shardless games were super close, they always seem to come down to 1 extremely crucial turn that ends up deciding the game: either they do have Force of Will and I lose, or they don't and I win.

Would have really like Swords to Plowshares instead of the Helix vs Shardless.

Is Chandra 'just' for Miracles? I love her, don't get me wrong, but I feel there has to be something a bit more universally applicable (the 6 cmc is super prohibitive, bringing her in against wasteland decks feels bad).

[ironclad8690]

3-2 again :/

2-0 Shardless
2-1 Maverick
2-1 Shardless
1-2 Grixis Delver
1-2 Eldrazi

It feels so awful to lose to those stupid Elemental tokens all the time. I hate Young Pyromancer, maybe the Volcanic Fallout in my board should be Deluge or a Tabernacle, IDK. Any suggestions?

[Claymore]

Tabernacle or Toxic Deluge are always key in my wins over 4C Delver. How often are you able to get out Knight? You can essentially count any game you untap with Knight as a win against 4C Delver, cause at that point you can grab Tabernacle to wipe their board, turn off Pyro, and severely restrict their board development. From there, grab a Maze with Knight to hold off Delver and wait for the rest of your deck to catch up and overwhelm them.

You can also try Fire Covenant, 4C Delver has been using it to good effect. It's an instant speed targeted removal or sweeper in one package. I'm not sure if it's better than Deluge but they for sure are comparable, and being instant speed lets you play around their countermagic.

I think Deluge is probably stronger with all of the Shardless and Eldrazi you're running into to be able to wipe out large creatures as well.

What's your sideboard?

Since you asked and no one responded, Chandra does seem to be only for Miracles and any other matchup where you'd get to a lot of lands in play. Chandra can dig like crazy, especially with Loam to fill your hand with a bunch of lands and then draw gas off of her ability. I'd consider her for any long control matchup and maybe Shardless...I haven't had much opportunity to play test this matchup recently.

[apocolyps6]

If you are able to activate knight twice and not get wastelanded, why not just go for marit lage? That's usually how I win the games where my opponent runs away with young pyro. Generally tho, chalice, wastelands, and pfire work to keep pyro under control. I kind of like Maelstrom Pulse as a catch-all to the threats that matter in this matchup.

[Claymore]

Depends on board state, going for Lage is likely better generally, but facing down a swarm of Tokens when you're at low life doesn't afford you time to get Lage...which has generally been the case for me when I stabilize against DnT, Pyro, etc decks.

Tabernacle cleans out their excess creatures and time walks them every turn if they want to keep a 3/2 and 2/1 around. It also affords you the ability to out spend them on mana and reposition for a clean Lage kill, if you couldn't get Lage fast enough previously.

[ironclad8690]

Guys, I have been wondering about how to sideboard for some matchups. Can you guys tell me if I am on the right track?

Here's my list:


1 Dryad Arbor
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary

3 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire
2 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Life from the Loam
2 Sylvan Library
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond

1 Badlands
1 Barren Moor
1 Dark Depths
1 Forest
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Taiga
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Tranquil Thicket
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Bayou
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

Sideboard
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Leyline of the Void
2 Thoughtseize
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Chandra, Flamecaller
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Golgari Charm
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Ethersworn Canonist


Miracles:

In:
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Chandra, Flamecaller
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Reclamation Sage

Out:
2 Life from the Loam
1 Maze of Ith
1 Scavenging Ooze

Shardless BUG:

In:
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

Out:
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Gaddock Teeg

Grixis Delver:

In:
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Golgari Charm
1 Toxic Deluge

Out:
2 Dark Confidant
2 Sylvan Library
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Life from the Loam

Eldrazi Menace:

In:
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Toxic Deluge

Out:
4 Chalice of the Void

BUG Delver (Hymn Version):

In:
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Garruk Relentless

Out:
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Gaddock Teeg

BUG Delver (Stifle Version)

In:
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Golgari Charm (Bob, TNN)

Out:
2 Sylvan Library
2 Dark Confidant
1 Gaddock Teeg

UR Delver:

In:
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Toxic Deluge

Out:
2 Dark Confidant
2 Life from the Loam

Infect:

In:
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Golgari Charm
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Ethersworn Canonist

Out:
1 Life from the Loam
2 Sylvan Library
1 Dark Depths
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg

Burn:

In:
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Reclamation Sage

Out:
2 Sylvan Library
2 Life from the Loam

RUG Delver:

3 Swords to Plowshres
1 Toxic Deluge

Out:
2 Sylvan Library
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Dark Confidant

Death and Taxes:

In:
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Golgari Charm
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Garruk Relentless

Out:
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Dark Depths
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Gaddock Teeg

Mirror:

In:
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Garruk Relentless

Out:
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Gaddock Teeg

Deathblade:

In:
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Golgari Charm
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Garruk Relentless

Out:
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Karakas
1 Sylvan Library

Storm:

In:
3 Leyline of the Void
2 Thoughtseize
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Golgari Charm (Empty the Warrens)

Out:
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire
2 Life from the Loam

Sneak and Show:
In:
2 Thoughtseize
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Golgari Charm
1 Reclamation Sage

Out:
3 Punishing Fire
2 Life from the Loam
1 Abrupt Decay (Blood Moon)

Reanimator:

In:
3 Leyline of the Void
2 Thoughtseize
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Ethersworn Canonist

Out:
3 Punishing Fire
2 Life from the Loam
1 Abrupt Decay (In case of Jace, VP/Animate Dead/Pithing Needle)
1 Gaddock Teeg

Dredge:

In:
3 Leyline of the Void

Out:
3 Liliana of the Veil

EDIT: Just finished another league, 3-2 again.

Deathblade: 2-1
Grixis Delver: 2-0
Omnisneak: 2-1
Omnisneak: 0-2
Shardless: 2-1

[Claymore]

You really need a Bojuka Bog in your deck...consider replacing the Taiga, a Fetch, or a cycle land.

Miracles:

In:
1 Golgari Charm (Keep Thalia out)
1 Chandra, Flamecaller
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Reclamation Sage

Out:
1 Maze of Ith
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Karakas
1 Mox Diamond (Keep Loams in)

Golgari Charm against RIP, Counterbalance, and whatever else they want to try (Blood Moon, Moat). Loam is your card advantage engine with Cycle Lands so you need it to try and keep pace. You can also threaten their duals with Wasteland and target their fetches without remorse. Scooze could probably be kept in to fight against Snapcaster, replace with Mox Diamond. Karakas isn't essential. You don't exactly need the speed of Moxes in this matchup, but they help hedge against Blood Moon or Back to Basics. Thalia doesn't really impact them too much when you can't keep up the pressure, but I might be mistaken here.

Shardless BUG:

In:
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Toxic Deluge

Out:
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Karakas

Remove the Karakas, we can take the 1 land hit when running 26 lands. Shardless can swarm the board so a Deluge can help equalize things. I would consider Chandra here, I haven't played the matchup with her in mind recently. Replace with Thalia.

Grixis Delver:

In:
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Garruk Relentless (Remove Thalia)
1 Golgari Charm
1 Toxic Deluge

Out:
2 Dark Confidant
2 Sylvan Library
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Life from the Loam

You really like Thalia. She slows down our removal in this matchup in my opinion. Garruk can churn out blockers, kill a DRS profitably, kill a flipped Delver.

Eldrazi Menace: Seems okay

BUG Delver (Hymn Version):

In:
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Garruk Relentless

Out:
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg

From what I remember, BUG Delver is a midrange deck that relies heavily on 1cc cards...why take out the Chalices? I'd consider bringing in Golgari Charm for Karakas or Sylvan Library.

BUG Delver (Stifle Version): Seems okay.

UR Delver: Seems okay.

Infect: Seems okay.

Burn - Burn is essentially a storm combo deck that spans several turns. I board as such.

In:
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben (slow them down)
1 Ethersworn Canonist (slow them down)
2 Thoughtseize (grabbing any spell is a net gain since it would deal 3+ damage)
1 Golgari Charm (Sulfuric Vortex, Eidolon of the Great Revel)

Out:
2 Sylvan Library
2 Life from the Loam
4 Dark Confidant (too dangerous)
1 Karakas

RUG Delver: Seems okay.

Death and Taxes:

In:
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Golgari Charm
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Garruk Relentless

Out - Keep Depths Combo, sometimes they just can't answer it, and it keeps them scared.
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Liliana of the Veil/Mox Diamond

Mirror: Seems fine. I really want to put 3 Leyline of the Void but I don't know what else to cut...Punishing Fires?

Deathblade

In:
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Golgari Charm
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Garruk Relentless
(I don't see the appeal of Swords here)

Out:
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Karakas
1 Sylvan Library
1 Scavenging Ooze

Keep the Chalices in, they're a 1cc heavy deck. Consider Chandra here. Scooze is probably the weakest card to make room for your incoming cards, except maybe don't bring Garruk in.

Storm: Seems okay, but my storm boarding is pretty weak.

Sneak and Show:
In:
2 Thoughtseize
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Golgari Charm
1 Reclamation Sage

Out:
3 Punishing Fire
2 Life from the Loam
1 Scavenging Ooze (Keep Abrupt Decay in)

Reanimator:
In:
3 Swords to Plowshares (many of their targets can be STP'd)
3 Leyline of the Void
2 Thoughtseize
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Ethersworn Canonist

Out:
3 Punishing Fire
2 Life from the Loam
1 Abrupt Decay (In case of Jace, VP/Animate Dead/Pithing Needle)
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Liliana of the Veil (her +1 is pretty risky)
2 Sylvan Library (too slow)

Dredge:

In:
3 Leyline of the Void
1 Toxic Deluge
3 Swords to Plowshares

Out:
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Sylvan Library
2 Life from the Loam

[ironclad8690]

Thanks for the response!

So I went 3-2 5 leagues in a row which I can't complain about, but most recently I have gone 0-3 losing to Burn, Death and Taxes, and Storm (who managed to beat a chalice @ 0, @1, Gaddock Teeg all in the same turn and win through Leyline from only 7 health), and then a 1-3 losing to Butakov in the mirror, Death and Taxes, Legend Miracles (boy what a grindy match, was card for card attrition battle all of both games, he wins g2 with 1 minute left on the clock), and beating a Grixis Delver.

I think I am going to cut the DD/Stage package and add in 1 Abrupt Decay and 1 Punishing Fire. I would really like to beat these small creature fair decks more often, and I feel I will be able to Jund em out better with this configuration, as well as increase the number of keepable hands vs Delver.

[TheExtraMile]

I'm also considering cutting the DD/Stage (replacing with a cycle land and horizon canopy for smooother draws), but would like to keep it in the 75.

Has anyone played or tested the combo in the sideboard? I know that configuration has had success but am not sure what matchups I should be bringing it in against. Any help would be much appreciated!

[ironclad8690]

Here is an example of how most of my matches vs Grixis Delver seem to go (outside of me opening with a completely nut hand):

https://youtu.be/-y_Lf6ZMFao

I am starting to think that people who say this is a favorable matchup are deluded. I'd say 45% at best.

Other Delver variants are fine, but this one is not good.

[apocolyps6]

Some of these are true:

1. You are having problems that nobody else (that we've heard from) is having through no fault of your own.
2. There are aspects of your game that you can improve on.

It is obviously not all #2, but it isn't all #1 either.

Does anyone else here think Bayou, Savannah, Knight, Teeg, Pfire, Badlands, Bob is a good hand? It is pretty weak in the blind.
Both times your opener was weaker than your opponents.

This deck is insane with a mana advantage, especially against Delver. Delver can't play a CA game so whatever CA we have trumps theirs. It is very much worth it to go to 6 to get a stronger manabase.

The matchup is 70+% for me

[ironclad8690]

I don't think you can mull that hand in the blind on the play. It has tools for every matchup.

Edit: Here is another cool match I just played vs Miracles, but I think I made some mistakes. Let me know if you guys would have done anything differently:

https://youtu.be/iKwUj8STvkc

[btm10]

I don't think you can mull that hand in the blind on the play. It has tools for every matchup.

It's very close to a mull on the play, but I agree that it's likely too clunky on the draw. If you had fetch + cycling land on the play I definitely like the hand since you at least get to do something turn 1 while being more insulated against Wasteland.

As for the Grixis matchup more generally, I think it's in Loam's favor, but only slightly. I find 70% an extremely difficult figure to believe.



Edit: Here is another cool match I just played vs Miracles, but I think I made some mistakes. Let me know if you guys would have done anything differently:

https://youtu.be/iKwUj8STvkc

Game 2, I think you need to put the Blood Moon in the pile with the lands. Your hand either beats Jace if you can cast spells or likely finds Diamond or Forest before your opponent does anything threatening under Blood Moon.

Game 3, I would've cycled the Thicket at my opponent's first end step since you've got plenty of lands already. I also might have run out the second Chalice sooner.

[Moroklumpen]

So, I'm playing in a local invitational tournament tomorrow, and if my estimates are correct, there will be six Miracles players in a field of sixteen. My board is appropriately geared for the matchup, with 2nd Teeg, Garruk and Chandra, but I'm always interested in hearing any tips and suggestions you guys might have. Also, I'm never sure how many Punishing Fires to keep in, especially if I don't see Mentor in game one. Sure, it's a handy way to grind them out, but it's very low impact without Grove and very easy to hardlock with Counterbalance. Should I keep in one? Zero? All three? Thoughts? Anything helpful would be appreciated.

[ironclad8690]

So, I'm playing in a local invitational tournament tomorrow, and if my estimates are correct, there will be six Miracles players in a field of sixteen. My board is appropriately geared for the matchup, with 2nd Teeg, Garruk and Chandra, but I'm always interested in hearing any tips and suggestions you guys might have. Also, I'm never sure how many Punishing Fires to keep in, especially if I don't see Mentor in game one. Sure, it's a handy way to grind them out, but it's very low impact without Grove and very easy to hardlock with Counterbalance. Should I keep in one? Zero? All three? Thoughts? Anything helpful would be appreciated.

I really like keeping all 3, i have been doing what claymore recommended and that has been working out.

For reference that was taking out 1 mox, 1 ooze, 1 karakas, and 1 maze.

My reason for leaving them in is that we are too cold to Jace without them.

[apocolyps6]

I keep in 2 Pfires. I want to go down to 1, but they might side into a more creature heavy strategy. I have a lot of good cards to bring in against Miracles so Pfire #3 is really not desirable

Edit: Just got around to watching the miracles game.

G1 I'm not seeing the advantage to shocking him for 2 on turn 2. I get that Pfire loses a lot post-CB but you are just throwing away the card like this waay before you are able to tell if the life will matter (getting it back is a real cost given all the 3s in hand). I'd fetch out Scrubland in order to cast all the non-pfire cards in hand. That way the 2 knights are not stuck in your hand at the cost of Pfire bring a bit more awkward to cast, or just a card to go with lili.

G2 I might have actually thought about keeping the Forest, GSZ, Chalice, Library hand if you kept in arbor. If you see 1 land in 2 cards the keep is pretty good. I would play out lili a turn sooner, even if you don't want to use her +1. That way you are more mana efficient, and can keep up decay for CB/Moon next turn. The split was to good for him IMO. It just makes him more all-in.

G3 I agree there's no reason not to cycle. I'm not sure if I would have Rec'd the top rather than waiting for a CB or a moon, but neither is a mistake and your opponent probably messed up there. I'd play out the cycle tapped to get 6 mana a turn faster in case the opponent can answer a Teeg, but it probably does not matter.

Good plays otherwise

[ironclad8690]

Sweet! Thanks for the tips :)

Just finished 4-1 in my league!

Miracles: 2-1
UR Stiflenaught/Delver/Pyromancer: 1-2
Manaless Dredge: 2-1
RUG Delver: 2-1
Burn: 2-1 (i have no idea how i won this match).

I can post replays of these matches if you guys want/think I should. Are the replays too fast? I kind of want to have a library of my matches to watch for analyzing my play and tightening up.

[apocolyps6]

I watch your videos on 0.5 speed and pause to think about my plays. Slowing down the replays promotes critical analysis, but it isn't a huge deal.

I'm always down to watch or weigh in on games if I have the time.

[ironclad8690]

Dang, I was going to boot up mtgo to watch the replays and I started to get a "main navigation has stopped working" crash error. I looked up how to fix it, and I had to completely delete all of my MTGO data and then reinstall. I think this will delete all of my replays unfortunately.

[ironclad8690]

Another frustrating loss to Grixis Delver 0-2.

https://youtu.be/TUjHEjOMh9Q

I am playing Niklas Kroberger's MKM list, and it really doesn't feel like there is enough removal for Pyro in the sideboard. It could be that it was stupid of me to keep these hands, but I felt like g1 it was good enough because I had a cycle land and loam and chalice, and then in g2 P fire + grove I think is too good to throw back.

In hindsight, I probably should have tried to play the control game more and left up P fire mana on turn 2 rather than loam, and then I can rebuy and do again on his turn. If he has FOW + Daze I still get blown out, but at least I don't get tempod out as soon. I also drew like complete crap.

By far the two decks I have been playing against the most are Grixis Delver and Shardless BUG, so I think I have to change my list. Anyone have any suggestions to improve those two matchups?

Edit: I know I keep spamming stuff into this thread, but I am super into this deck right now. Check out this list Butakov used to 5-0 a league:

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/436222#online

I think this might be the list I have been looking for.

4 Decays main down to 1 Sylvan library, improving tempo matchups but slightly hurting midrangey ones (and Miracles, but it's an even trade there IMO)

The sideboard has 2 Deluge which I find really essential in Grixis.meta, as well as Choke replacing Chandra (as you guys have seen, I cannot seem to hit the magic 6 mana needed to cast Chandra, even when I have 5 mana and 6 turns to hit a 6th), and a Pulse for additional removal.

[apocolyps6]

Your opening hand was Chalice, Wasteland, Arbor, Bob, Loam, Cycle, Grove.
Bob is uncastable, Loam with just 1 cycle land I don't like (in the early game, but especially as a gameplan) , Arbor is not a magic card. So you have Grove for colors, Wasteland as a second mana source and chalice. I'd keep this some of the time but I'd be very concerned about not not having a game plan if Chalice does not do it.
Also, I'm sure you did this just to F6 but cycling in response to therapy is never correct. Worst case scenario you draw a copy of what your opponent is going to name, best case you give him extra info.

G2 you are all in on Pfire being good, which it usually is. Your wastelands are probably weak given the lack of acceleration in your hand, and how mana-intensive Pfire is. Surgical is usually trash against the deck, but happens to blow you out there. I'm not sure what the lesson here is. There was also an opportunity to use Verdant catacombs as a removal spell against an X/1, which might have bought you a turn.

I really like Maelstrom Pule in the matchup. It answers their strongest plays against you.

I would suggest you try mulling more aggressively to acceleration + threat in this matchup. Don't keep 7s without a Mox, Zenith, or DRS for the sake of testing. Being ahead on mana is really strong for the deck. Once that happens, your Wastelands, Zeniths, Pfires, 3drops etc get better while their Dazes and Wastelands get worse.

I also like proactively getting Scavenging Ooze when possible to turn off Angler and DRS as well as gaining life to keep you out of burn range.

[btm10]

I'm not in love with either keep (any hand with Arbor is basically a mulligan anyway, so I ship any seven with it that doesn't have Diamond and a two drop), but the only play error I can see is that you cast a Punishing Fire at Sorcery speed in game 2 and gave him a free shot with a token. The biggest problem in these games, especially game 2, was your opponent's draw lining up well with yours, especially with the Surgical and you flooding out.

EDIT: I'm maindecking a Maelstrom Pulse that Niklas isn't, and definitely see the appeal of a 7th non-Liliana removal spell if you aren't running one already.

[ironclad8690]

Sweet, thanks guys. Going to try again tonight and we will see if i can finally win against grixis delver.

[apocolyps6]

This list (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=104495) just top 16ed a SCG Legacy Classic. 2 Lili 4 Decay

[kungfugeek]

That is really hard. I don't have any specific rules. What you can't do is keeping a hand without Turn One interaction against Fast-Combo OTD. Even you have like double Thalia, Teeg, Bob and Lands.
I tried to think about your concerns about the manabase and the missing cycle lands. I think I managed to get to enough Black, White and Green sources, while still playing two cycle lands, the DD Combo and all the other utility lands. I am now short a red source, but I also tried to reduce the red mana symbols:

34 spell stay the same (1 DRS, 3 Loam, 1 Library)
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Wasteland
1 Secluded Steppe
1 Barren Moor
1 Forest
2 Bayou
1 Taiga
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
3 Windswept Heath
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Thespian Stage
1 Dark Depths

Sideboard

1 Reclamation Sage
1 Golgari Charm
1 Garruk Relentless
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Thoughtseize
1 Crop Rotation
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Containment Priest
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Pyroclasm
1 Slaughter Games

Is this what you played in Prague? How did you like it? Any changes you recommend?

[ironclad8690]

Here is an epic match I played against Miracles. I ended up winning, though I played sloppily enough that perhaps I shouldn't have.

https://youtu.be/2cy0908J-m4

Specifically, in g2 when I am p firing him to death at the end of the match, I fetch a Savannah instead of a forest, colding myself to Blood Moon. Post Blood Moon, I also play a "Mountain" Wasteland from my hand instead of sandbagging it for Mox Diamond, which I draw the next turn. Luckily my bob was alive for infinite turns, so I ended up drawing into more creatures and lands and stuff.

Game 3 is super epic, with very swingy back and forth plays. He put up way more of a fight than I thought he would have been able to after Chalice @ 1 turn 1, and Punishing Fire did some gnarly work in this game, for example I would not have beaten that Entreat the Angels after the C Priest and Clique. My opponent misplayed here I think, trading the c priest for a Wolf makes it so that I can -2 without having to use a p fire on the C Priest first, which allows me to kill 1 more Angel (I think? this matchup can get complicated :P).

Anyhow, let me know what you guys think, misplays, strong plays, keeps, etc.

I am playing a list of my own for this league, it is same main deck as Butakov but SB is:

3 Leyline of the Void
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Thoughtseize
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Golgari Charm
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Choke

[ironclad8690]

2nd match of the league, vs Bant Stoneblade, 2-1

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxx82s2wBe4&index=2&list=PLOaIHi8nuWW7qZ6XnQA1iVrotezLt_m0t

Probably could have won g2 if I go for Knight over Garruk, stage comes online before I get lethal'ed if I go that route. Dunno why I played Garruk, just kind of wanted to do the "fun" thing when I should have been trying to win.

[rlesko]

I tend to agree that grixis delver is not favorable. Pyro can easily get out of control, angler is extremely hard to handle, deathrite can mess with loams / p fires, they can force our business spells, and nothing in the hand is safe. Not saying I haven't beaten this MU before, but I dread facing it. If you think you are anything more than 55% against this deck I can promise you thats not true. If the grixis pilot is skilled its bad news.

EDIT:
Example 1- Board is empty except for a chalice on 1. He casts a pyromancer and spams 4-5 spells into my chalice. I don't miss a single trigger but 6 bodies and 7 power is pretty darn good.
Example 2- I have a nut hand, T1 bob, T2 sylvan, wasteland. He bolts bob and forces my library (after wasting him down to 0 lands to play around daze). I easily flood after that and he pulls away.

Grixis is the real deal, guys.

[ironclad8690]

Match #3 vs Lands:

https://youtu.be/k0v_JdT2UGM

Kind of just a "do you have it?" back and forth in the first couple of turns. Somewhat uneventful match.

[ironclad8690]

Match 4 vs Miracles

https://youtu.be/KRZhe3L6jn8

I lose to mzfroste. Probably made some mistakes, though they are getting less and less.

[ironclad8690]

Last but not least BUG Delver:

https://youtu.be/Lzc3AJvICcY

Finished 4-1 :D

I like this build and sideboard.

[Pilhas]

Is this what you played in Prague? How did you like it? Any changes you recommend?

Niklas was in the same 75 than me, except for a Chandra instead of the containment priest.

@rlesko To be fair your 2nd scenario can happen against any delver :smile:

@ironclad8690 will try to watch the vods during this week. Maybe I learn something or can give some feedback

[kungfugeek]

Niklas was in the same 75 than me, except for a Chandra instead of the containment priest.

@rlesko To be fair your 2nd scenario can happen against any delver :smile:

@ironclad8690 will try to watch the vods during this week. Maybe I learn something or can give some feedback

Just found your report, thanks!

[ironclad8690]

Lost to Goblins :mad:

https://youtu.be/PIIwRhXwAoI

g1 didn't have any removal in hand, get punished by t1 lackey on the draw.

G2 I keep a slightly sketchy hand, but it pays off.

g3, I have to pitch Depths to mox diamond early in the game, and I never find loam. Meanwhile my opponent plays 3 Aether Vials and proceeds to draw all 4 Goblins Ringleaders. I mess up by forgetting I pitched Depths early in the game, so instead of attacking/fetching better things with Knight, I float two random mana and try to search out Depths and Stage (only way I would have won this game I think, mana was too choked after he Tin Streets my Mox Diamond).

Really frustrating losing to swarm decks. Had him down to Matron, Piledriver 3 aether vials on board, then ringleader into ringleader x infinite.

[apocolyps6]

Jim Davis was your Goblins opponent and was streaming the match. It is probably worth it to watch the recording when it becomes available here (https://www.twitch.tv/jimdavismtg/profile)

[Claymore]

Would Tabernacle have helped at that point? I did some testing the past day or two and found it helps slow down 4c Delver.

[ironclad8690]

Just watched the match from his side.

I am not sure if Tabernacle really helps, because he had 3 Vials and I was very choked on mana. I think the main turning point of the game was when he Tin Street'ed my Diamond. That was enough to slow me down for the rest of the game and give him enough time to draw all of his cards. If I have that Diamond, the Punishing Fire in my yard comes online 1 turn sooner and I start mowing down his dudes (after searching up Grove with Knight). Once I do that, I can start attacking with knight and pressuring him while keeping up p fire mana each turn/casting multiple spells per turn.

His draw was also quite insane though, where mine was just average. Don't underestimate the Gobs, they can still get there.

[kungfugeek]

Just watched the match from his side.

I am not sure if Tabernacle really helps, because he had 3 Vials and I was very choked on mana. I think the main turning point of the game was when he Tin Street'ed my Diamond. That was enough to slow me down for the rest of the game and give him enough time to draw all of his cards. If I have that Diamond, the Punishing Fire in my yard comes online 1 turn sooner and I start mowing down his dudes (after searching up Grove with Knight). Once I do that, I can start attacking with knight and pressuring him while keeping up p fire mana each turn/casting multiple spells per turn.

His draw was also quite insane though, where mine was just average. Don't underestimate the Gobs, they can still get there.

This is a perfect example of why main deck depths is so good. You could have just played D with knights and found the pieces at the end of turn. He had no way to deal with that.

[Pilhas]

This is a perfect example of why main deck depths is so good. You could have just played D with knights and found the pieces at the end of turn. He had no way to deal with that.


Stingscourger Would like a word with you. And don't think it is a one of, with the matrons + ringleader he will appear. But Lage is a good way to close out the games, just don't go all in if you don't need it.

[apocolyps6]

I played some games against miracles. (https://youtu.be/qOGhtW7NEsA) Hopefully I'll be able to do the same for Grixis Delver in a couple of days.

[mike1987]

I wonder where did Nicklas go to :tongue:

Very interested in this experience at GP Prague - what went well and what didnt and moving forward any changes to the decklist he played.

[aluisiocsantos]

Played a side event at brazil GP today (got to meet Mark Tedin and RK Post yay!) and went 3-1.
Piloted Niklas deck from Frankfurt, with the combo in the side, plus Chandra.
Matches were Grixis Delver (win), Affinity (Loss, dude hit me for 15 damage turn 3 in one of the games), Reanimator (win) and Jund (win).

I kinda think the combo place should be maindeck right now, because in some matches I wanted to bring the big ol 20/20 in action for a lack of things to do, like I had stalled the game vs reanimator at 5 hp, with him attacking with a Ashen Rider, and all I could do was punishing fire him down, with the knight standing there and getting me lands for additional P.Fires. Sure, the match was pretty much won for me at that point but I feel like it surely dragged long enough for him to find a comeback (which he didnt).

I might go to the bigger event tomorrow, if I can wake up early enough! Fun times!

[Whit3boy316]

Hello,
Can you guys tell me what kind of meta rhis dexk eants to be in? To give you an example of that im playing against here is my 9 man tourny that went off today.
3 infect (could easily be 4 but my friend was a no show)
1 d&t
1 junk deathblade
1 brew (like red blue flyers...looked like jank)
1 burn
1 manaless dredge
Shardless(me)

I also play against r/u delver.....woukd this deck be good in the meta?

[Pilhas]

Hello,
Can you guys tell me what kind of meta rhis dexk eants to be in? To give you an example of that im playing against here is my 9 man tourny that went off today.
3 infect (could easily be 4 but my friend was a no show)
1 d&t
1 junk deathblade
1 brew (like red blue flyers...looked like jank)
1 burn
1 manaless dredge
Shardless(me)

I also play against r/u delver.....woukd this deck be good in the meta?

Not really the best deck to play on that meta.

Infect is a hard mu if the player is good;
junk deathblade might be good or bad, depending on the build;
burn is just bad;
manaless dredge is pretty average IMO.

The best matchup you list would be against yourself.
You can adapt the deck to that meta and it gets just fine, playing the shaman, playing a 2 thalia/2canonist sb for the infect and burn MU.

[mgrinshpon]

Quick tournament report from Eternal Extravaganza 4 and some thoughts.

Background: I've been playing Aggro Loam as my main deck since SCG DC in 2015 with a 9 month break somewhere in between. Before that, I alternated between RUG Lands and Jund Depths.

Decklist (61):
1 Barren Moor
2 Bayou
1 Dark Depths
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Forest
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Savannah
2 Scrubland
1 Taiga
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Tranquil Thicket
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
2 Windswept Heath

3 Abrupt Decay
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Dark Confidant
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Life from the Loam
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Mox Diamond
3 Punishing Fire
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Sylvan Library


Sideboard:
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Containment Priest
1 Crop Rotation
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Golgari Charm
1 Pyroclasm
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Slaughter Games
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Thoughtseize

I've had the dark depths combo in the main deck for a while now, variously cutting cards like Sylvan Library or Deathrite Shaman to fit it in.

M1: Taylor on Grixis Delver (0-2, 0-1 overall)
G1: My notes are particularly spares here. I lose the draw and he opens up with a quick delver. I play a land, a mox, and a chalice which he dazes. He then runs out a young pyromancer while I'm just not drawing the correct half of my deck, drawing a knight and some other cards. He has wasteland on the board for the dark depths combo so I can't go for that. Eventually, I draw an abrupt decay but by then, it's too little to late.
SB: -Karakas, -Teeg, -Depths, -Stage, -Library, +2 Thalia, +GCharm, +Pyroclasm, +Garruk Relentless
G2: He draws multiple deathrite shamans and young pyromancers, I draw knights and a deathrite shaman. He bolts the shaman and goes wide. Again, no removal was drawn. I can't recall what my opening hand was but my notes show me mulling to 5 and keeping.
Firstly, Grixis Delver can't be a positive matchup. I feel like I always lose to this deck. Secondly, boarding in StP is amazing in this matchup and is definitely something I should have done.

M2: Elton on R Imperial Painter (1-1-1, 0-1-1 overall)
G1: I win the die roll and open up on fetch->forest+mox+chalice. He goes city of traitors, simian spirit guide, blood moon. I play a basic mountain, drop a knight, and we're off to the races. Teeg joins the onslaught as Chalice locks him out of the combo. He drops an ensnaring bridge, but I play my sandbagged abrupt decay and he dies to the awesome power of a 3/3 knight and a punishing fire for lethal.
SB: -2 Lili, -1 Confidant, -2 Life from the Loam, -Gaddock Teeg, -Dark Depths, -Karakas, +2 Thalia, +1 Reclamation Sage, +1 Garruk Relentless, +2 Thoughtseize, +1 Crop Rotation, +1 Golgari Charm. The Stage stays in just in case I can copy a basic forest or a basic plains.
G2: This match took over 40 minutes. As a RUG Lands player, I know that if I can win the first game against a bad matchup, I can maybe durdle long enough to tie game 2. No deck can durdle like RUG Lands (Smokestack+Wasteland, oh yeah!). My line of play here is prolong the inevitable, or maybe even win. He goes first and drops a Divining Top. I play a Chalice off of a Mox and a fetched Forest. His blood moon is a few too many turns late, by which point I have lands in my graveyard, an active Deathrite, and a Thespian's Stage copying the basic Forest. He has an Ensnaring Bridge, a Painter, and a Blood Moon. I drop a Thalia in play and we play mexican standoff for a few turns. My hand consists of a few lands which I won't play, a Chalice, and a Lili which costs approximately infinite mana right now. Eventually, I draw an Abrupt Decay, Decay the bridge, and get a good hit in. I play my second Chalice so he can't just Smash to Smithereens my Chalice and drop a Grindstone. What I didn't expect was a Ratchet Bomb which blew up all of my moxen and Chalices. I play Garruk Relentless, get in a fight with Painter, and continue to durdle. He plays a Grindstone he draws off of the top and activates it. I mill about 20 cards and eventually, about 10 turns later, lose to decking myself. There are 3 minutes left on the clock.
G3: We're going to time but I'm fighting hard regardless. Chalice, Forest, a GSZ'd Deathrite Shaman, and fightin' Garruk all come down. He Blood Moons me, recruits a Simian Spirit Guide, and plays it in face-up defense mode. Garruk has made some 1/1 deathtouch tokens as an Ensaring Bridge drops and the 5th turn of turns is called.

M3: Andy on R Goblins (2-0, 1-1-1 overall)
G1: Andy is new to legacy, he explains, and borrowed his friends' deck. I say that's okay, we're nearing the fun portion of the tournament where points don't matter and everyone's a winner. After winning the die roll, he opens up on Cavern into Lackey. I open up into Mox, Wasteland, Punishing Fire. He has no turn 2 play. I Wasteland his Cavern, play a Chalice off of another land, and that about sums it up. A Dark Confidant and a Dryad Arbor deal 20 points of damage as Wastelands take his mana base apart and Chalice prevents him from ever playing another spell.
SB: -Karakas, -Liliana of the Veil, -Teeg, -Sylvan Library, -Scavenging Ooze, -Dark Depths, -Thespian's Stage, +Containment Priest, +2 Thalia, +3 Swords to Plowshares, +1 Pyroclasm
G2: He fetches a mountain and passes the turn. I play a fetchland. He plays something a port and a top-decked lackey. I swords his Lackey in response. On my turn, I play Mox, Wasteland, a top-decked Chalice, and Wasteland his port. He never gets to play another spell for the rest of the game as a Clegane-sized Knight slams into him.

M4: Greg on Tin Fins (2-0, 2-1-1 overall)
G1: I curve out into a T1 Abrupt Decay for a Chrome Mox, T2 Wasteland+Gaddock Teeg, T3 Dark Confidant+Dryad Arbor. He Chrome Mox'd a burning wish for a faithless looting pitching a Griselbrand, cantripped a bit, and animates the Griselbrand. I respond by putting Knight into play. He attacks, taking me down to 9. My Knight is a 7/7 at this point and is ready to fetch up a Maze of Ith for his puny demon. That chance never comes. He tries comboing off. Always, always, always make them complete the combo. He draws is entire deck dancing between 8 and 40 life before he tries Snuffing out my Knight of the Reliquary. I point to my Gaddock Teeg, he thinks and looks at his 40 card hand, then scoops.
SB: -Dryad Arbor, -3 Punishing Fire, -Dark Depths, -Thespian's Stage, -Knight, -2 Loam, +2 Thoughtseize, +Slaughter Games, +2 Thalia, +Crop Rotation, +Bog, +Containment Priest, +Reclamation Sage
G2: T1 Thalia, T2 Chalice+Wasteland, T3 Decay for Chrome Mox, T4 Confidant. Confidant deals 8 damage to both me and him. I've never had problems with Renaimator or Tin Fins in general. This seems like a hideously positive matchup for Aggro Loam.

M5: Matt on Esper Cards I Own (2-1, 3-1-1 overall)
I didn't take notes on this match since it took so long to complete.
G1: I remember that Chalice won me the game and Confidant killed almost half of my life total.
SB: No idea, but I'd probably get Thalias, Garruk, Reclamation Sage, Thoughtseize and take out Scooze, Karakas, Maze of Ith, Dryad Arbor, Life from the Loam, and maybe some other cards.
G2: He dropped a Jace+Lili.
G3: Wastelands, Chalices, and creatures knocked him out.

M6: Michael on Death and Taxes (1-0, 4-1-1 overall)
G1: Michael received a game loss for some reason and arrived about 20 minutes late. We got a 10 minute game extension. He won the chance to play first because of the one-sided game loss and opens up on a mother of runes. I play Mox, basic Forest, Punishing Fire. He drops a Stoneforge fetching a Sword of Fire and Ice. I play Grove, return the fire, and punishing fire his stoneforge. He plays a port, drops his sword, and I decay it. He plays Karakas and a Mangara. I Wasteland Karakas, Punishing Fire the Condor, and drop a Chalice and a Confidant. The writing is on the wall as I bury him card advantage and blank the removal in his hand.

M7: Kosmo on BUG Food Chain (2-1, 5-1-1 overall)
So at this point, I've fought my way back up to somewhere near the top tables. I need to win 2 of the next 3 matches to get some cash.
G1: I Chalice him, remove his Deathrite, and do my best to prevent him from ever getting to 4 mana. Punishing Fire does tremendous work here in a close game 1. Eventually, Liliana comes down and locks him out of effectively casting Griffins forever. Deathrite Shamans and Baleful Strixes are locked out due to Punishing Fire.
SB: -Dark Depths, -Thespian's Stage, -Life from the Loam, -Scavenging Ooze, -Karakas, -Teeg, +2 Thoughtseize, +Pyroclasm, +Golgari Charm, +Reclamation Sage, +Slaughter Games
G2: I mull to 5 and he crushes me. I remember attacking with a Dark Confidant and he played Ambush Viper. Actual, factual Ambush Viper. Apparently, it's been amazing for him all day.
G3: He mulls to 5, goes Misty fetching an Underground Sea into a Deathrite Shaman. I Wasteland his Underground Sea and Punishing Fire his deathrite shaman. He never sees another land and dies permanentless.

M8: Anuraag on Miracles (0-2, 5-2-1 overall)
G1: I lose the die roll and grab some cards. My opening 7 is as follows: Dryad Arbor, Grove of the Burnwillows, Chalice, Dark Confidant, Dark Confidant, Liliana of the Veil. Knight of the Reliquary. I choose to mull the hand but now I'm not so sure. I know that Anuraag is on Miracles from seeing a tournament report or two of his. He probably won't Swords my T1 Dryad Arbor and has around a 40% chance of having Force of Will on turn 2. I can turn 2 Chalice and only need to draw a single black source in the next 3 turns to make this hand great. Each turn gives me a ~30% chance of drawing a black source, so I have something like a 95% chance of turning this hand into something pretty fantastic. Instead I mull to 5 and do nothing as a Jace ticks up and empties my library.
SB: -2 Life from the Loam, -2 Mox Diamond, -Wasteland, -Dryad Arbor, -Dark Depths, -Scavenging Ooze, +2 Thalia, +2 Thoughtseize, +Golgari Charm, +Pyroclasm, +Garruk, +Reclamation Sage (I should have also added in Slaughter Games)
G2: I again mull down to 6, get my turn 1 Sylvan forced, and I'm never really in the game. I need more practice against Miracles, generally speaking, and I'm not at all sure that my sideboarding plan was correct.

M9: Rog on Grixis Delver (0-2, 5-3-1 overall)
I don't have any notes from here and don't remember anything because of how tired and miserable I was. The room was closing in on 100F from the teeming horde of magic players and the malfunctioning AC.

Thoughts/changes:

Dark Depths and Thespian's Stage were hot garbage. There are so few matches where the straight wasteland lock isn't just better. I mulliganed a non-negligable number of times because of these cards where a basic Swamp or Barren Moor would have been worlds better. I will definitely be cutting these, though I'll need another edge in the Eldrazi matchup to replace them. If I get a basic swamp, I think removing a Windswept Heath for a Bloodstained Mire is a good swap.
I also don't like the second Scrubland and would probably prefer Badlands, although with a basic Swamp, I'd likely grab a Plateau.
In the sideboard, I never got a chance to see Crop Rotation or Bojuka Bog. Leyline of the Void seems much more impactful.
I feel like I need help in the Delver matchup and perhaps Kolaghan's Command could be a good addition that also helps in grindy matchups like Shardless BUG and artifact-heavy decks like Eldrazi. It seems good on paper, as does Maelstrom Pulse.
Cutting Deathrite Shaman is a huge mistake. Against Delver, getting a mana advantage is huge and Deathrite is invaluable here. Deathrite fixes mana, counters opposing Deathrites, and provides life gain until our powerful high-mana cards can go online. He's an additional turn one and turn two play (through GSZ) that helps our curve out and keeps us running as mana-efficiently as possible.
Mono-red imperial painter should really run a singleton Goblin Settler somewhere in the main 60.
A singleton Ghost Quarter would be nice. It gives us a way to cut Miracles off of double white for Entreat and stops the random singleton/two-of basics that so many decks run. I could see cutting something for it, either Wasteland or some other land.

[Pilhas]

Quick tournament report from Eternal Extravaganza 4 and some thoughts.
Thoughts/changes:

Dark Depths and Thespian's Stage were hot garbage. There are so few matches where the straight wasteland lock isn't just better. I mulliganed a non-negligable number of times because of these cards where a basic Swamp or Barren Moor would have been worlds better. I will definitely be cutting these, though I'll need another edge in the Eldrazi matchup to replace them. If I get a basic swamp, I think removing a Windswept Heath for a Bloodstained Mire is a good swap.
I also don't like the second Scrubland and would probably prefer Badlands, although with a basic Swamp, I'd likely grab a Plateau.
In the sideboard, I never got a chance to see Crop Rotation or Bojuka Bog. Leyline of the Void seems much more impactful.
I feel like I need help in the Delver matchup and perhaps Kolaghan's Command could be a good addition that also helps in grindy matchups like Shardless BUG and artifact-heavy decks like Eldrazi. It seems good on paper, as does Maelstrom Pulse.
Cutting Deathrite Shaman is a huge mistake. Against Delver, getting a mana advantage is huge and Deathrite is invaluable here. Deathrite fixes mana, counters opposing Deathrites, and provides life gain until our powerful high-mana cards can go online. He's an additional turn one and turn two play (through GSZ) that helps our curve out and keeps us running as mana-efficiently as possible.
Mono-red imperial painter should really run a singleton Goblin Settler somewhere in the main 60.
A singleton Ghost Quarter would be nice. It gives us a way to cut Miracles off of double white for Entreat and stops the random singleton/two-of basics that so many decks run. I could see cutting something for it, either Wasteland or some other land.



DD+Stage are weird indeed, but I believe the free wins they provide are enough reason to maintain them. It also makes your mu againsts Lands/eldrazi/elves/combo a lot better
10000% agreed on that, Leylines are way more reliable and powerful.
The problem with Kolaghans is the same problem with pulse, it is awful against daze so it is not impactful enough in the sideboard. I think you severely oversideboarded(the wrong cards also). I would bring the 4 swords and pyroclasm for Teeg and 3 Lilianas. Lilis are bad cause pyromancer and teeg does nothing. Against delver you cannot take lands out or you might get manascrewed and DD+Stage is awesome when he goes wide. We can also easily play around Submerge.
No knowledge on the MU.
I have been thinking on changing my approach in the matchup but running more colorless lands is not in my books. A singleton manland can help in the mu but since the addition of mentor, the MU got tough.

Just my opinion, hope it helps :smile:

[nditiz1]

Let me preface this report with the fact that I had a semi hard stop at 6PM due to family obligations. Players with spouses and kids will know exactly what I’m talking about. I decided to play Aggro Loam for the Quest for Power #8 (Quest Four Workshops) at MTGFirst in Glen Burnie. I have done considerably well since picking up the deck back in Feb so why change a good thing. I played my list from SCG Baltimore http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=100766 adding a 61st card in a second Sylvan Library. The deck is so tight and after seeing Chris Wessel’s top 16 with having one less Lili and an added DRS I thought let’s give it a go with 61. My sideboard is the same from the above link except a Slaughter Games in for Choke. Choke came out after seeing how useless it was. I usually only play it when I’m ahead and sometimes when not ahead it doesn’t win you the game. S.Games also gives you an out to OmniTell if you can get it off before they do. This will probably change as I feel I am behind the times with my sideboard. While I’m still not sold on the Crop Rotation/Bojuka Bog for my Leylines I am partially sold on needing some STP’s. The few times I faced Eldrazi I have defeated it, but it can only help the matchup. So now on to the matches:

Round 1 – Rudy B – playing Kory’s version of the Mirror

Game 1 – I win the die roll and setup a turn one Bob off Diamond with Wasteland and Loam still in hand. He goes for a turn 1 Bayou, GSZ, Dryad. I don’t know what his hand is, but going for non-basic here is pretty bad. If I have wasteland/Loam, which I do, I can hinder him to two mana for the entire game. I end up running my bob into him to see what he does. He blocks which is mistake number 2. Yes, Bob is bad on the opposite side as card advantage wins this game, but if I have a wasteland I restart his board with nothing and me at two lands. I follow my play up with a waste on his Bayou then into a Loam and he concedes.
SB – Out 4 Chalice, Dark Depths – In Garruk, 3 Leyline, Maelstrom Pulse
Game 2 – He gets an early start with Leyline and Diamond into Bob. I can’t keep up and slowly die to card advantage and not being able to Loam.
Game 3 – I don’t have a fast start, but do have turn 0 Leyline. He gets an early Bob, which later dies, and eventually a library. I cannot keep up even though I am punishing fire his 2/2 Knights. I eventually die to his Arlann (Don’t think this card is good for the deck, but Kory likes it)
0-1

Round 2 – Jordan playing TES

I have known Jordan for a while and we talk about our lives/wives/kids while shuffling. I believe I won the die roll.
Game 1 – I keep a decent starting hand with a turn 1 bob. He proceeds to make 12 goblins and pass. I proceed to revealing a land off bob into playing land and knight. He attacks for 12 making the goblins go to 10 and my life and bob taking one on the chin. I play depths and pass. He sighs stating “You had to draw it.” I grin happily. He attacks dropping me to 1 and I make a Laige and end the game.
SB – Out Scooze, 3 P.Fire, Maze, Karakas- In Revoker, 3 Leyline, 2 Thalia
Game 2 – I have a slow hand that he punishes by making 12 goblins on turn 3. I get a Knight in play that he bounces next turn off a top deck Tutor for Chain of V.
Game 3 – I have a slow start again, but with a turn 2 Bob and I think I had turn 0 leyline. He does not combo off before I rip a Thalia followed by double CoTV.
1-1

Round 3 – Micah – Mirror

Game 1 – I win the die roll and play Scrubland go. I see Diamond into CotV turn 1. I am thrilled as I know what I’m playing against and his turn 1 play does nothing. He sees me play Badlands Bob. He figures out it is the mirror when my bob flips library or something I can’t remember. He eventually loses to my CardA and Knights.
SB – Same as Rd 1
Game 2 – He have a back and fourth game, but he is under a turn 0 Leyline and I am not. There is a crucial point in the game where he has Stage/Depths active Knight and I have active Knight and wasteland. I had several possibilities at my disposal like wasting his Stage and in response to him activating it knighting for another waste to blow up his DD. I end up passing the turn in which he knighted for a waste. A fair move it I didn’t have my own knight. He ends up trying to waste my waste which I go for his DD. He activates in response. I let it happen. After all said and done I knight up Karakas and bounce the token. He realizes his critical play error. Sorry Micah, but hey you got into the tourney report:smile:
2-1

Round 4 – Tommy – Playing ANT

Game 1 – He wins the die roll and I think he probes me. I play a first turn CotV on 1. He ends up going for it the turn after, but miscalculates his graveyard size and his CR’s only make 3 mana instead of 5. He ends up double duressing me which get countered by CotV. I blow up his LED at end of turn with Abrupt Decay. Knight joins the party and goes the distance.
SB – Same as Round 2
Game 2 – I think I had a slow hand that ended up losing to 12 goblins on turn 2.
Game 3 – I can’t remember what happened here. I think Leyline, Thalia, Teeg.
3-1

So now I have played 4 rounds and only faced 2 different decks

Round 5 – Zach – Infect
Game 1 – I mop it up pretty quick with an early grove/fire, Abrupt Decay, Wasteland, Loam.
SB – Out Teeg, Scooze, Karakas, ? – In Garruk, Pulse, 2 Deluge
Zach mentions after game 1 about how he was trying to dodge this matchup all day.
Game 2 – I take over quick once again with Lili, Decay, Bob. He can’t keep up with my removal.
4-1

Round 6 – Ralph – Shardless
Ralph and I know each other from the local scene
Game 1 – I think I won the die roll and I get an early Library. I keep Ralph off non basics with loam waste recursion. We trade Lili’s and Decays back and forth. My CotV on 0 negates his Vision coming off the stack. I eventually beat him with Knights.
SB – Out 3 CotV, karakas, Teeg – In pulse, Garruk, 2 Deluge, Revoker - I Think, my notes are at home
Game 2 – This game is long and grindy with each player throwing back removal. I keep him off DRS with Punishing fire, but an early removal of my DD proves to be problematic as I can’t close the game early enough. I kill his Library and his board with Lili/pfire. I end up sticking my own Library and munch at my life to stay in the game after he came off a resolved vision. I clear the board once again with removal and drop Garruk. Playing so poorly with missing activations I get the game in turns. His friend Andrew is watching the final parts of the game and he ends up being my next opponent.
5-1

So standings come out and I have been here before, last Power event actually and had to play against a friend that ended up beating me to take my spot. Standings show most 15 pointers have to play with the exception of 3rd and 4th. Sitting in 10th I get ready for the last round.

Round 7 – Andrew playing ANT
He has an advantage as he knows what I’m playing. I also check the clock and see that my time here is almost up. Before sitting down I ask Andrew if he would like to prize split since one of us will make it and the other will not. He agrees and we play it out
Game 1 – I win the roll and proceed to get rolled as he Tendrils me on turn 2. My hand was good in the dark, but definitely not good enough for this matchup
SB – Same as above
Game 2 – I get a monster starter which he sees off his probe. I drop a CotV for 0 and 1. I follow up with Thalia and Bob.
Game 3 – I keep a decent hand and believe I have a turn 0 leyline. He doesn’t have the nuts and I can develop my board and GSZ for a turn 3 Teeg. This holds him off long enough for Thalia and Lili to join the party and he does to creatures.
(6-1)
5-2 – I end up conceding the match as I needed to leave. Top 8 end up splitting so not a bad way to end the day. I also made top 16 even with my concession :smile:

[apocolyps6]

Congrats on the finish.

Word of advice tho: if your hand is more than 4 cards and is slow, your chances to win against TES almost always increase if you mulligan. The deck takes a while to beat your first piece of interaction (barring nut draws), so having one in your opening hand and into play on turn 1 usually wins you the game. Once we have a piece of interaction, they are playing catchup while while the majority of our cards become live. This is also slightly true for ANT.

[hofzge]

Yesterday I went 1-1-1 at my LGS playing against Monoblack Storm (2-1), MUD Stax(1-1-1) and Jund(1-2).

I won 2 games with DD/Stage and I think if you play responsibly it is a out of prison free card sometimes while the Depths may ruin some hands. stage itself is one of the best lands there are as it can randomly be MAze#2, Wasteland#5, a basic Land, ...
-> Would play

The Swords in the sideboard are great i feel. A lot of mediocre matchups become better/great (e.g. Infect, DnT)
-> Would play

The Crop Rotations are IMHO not good as against the decks you need grave hate it is crucial the hate comes early. Bojuka Bog is not good there and while I can see the appeal of another tutor for the DD/Stage combo that too becomes way weaker against e.g. Reanimator when they already have a Griselbrand in the grave.
-> Would not play and keep the Leylines

[kungfugeek]

Round 3 – Micah – Mirror

Game 1 – I win the die roll and play Scrubland go. I see Diamond into CotV turn 1. I am thrilled as I know what I’m playing against and his turn 1 play does nothing. He sees me play Badlands Bob. He figures out it is the mirror when my bob flips library or something I can’t remember. He eventually loses to my CardA and Knights.
SB – Same as Rd 1
Game 2 – He have a back and fourth game, but he is under a turn 0 Leyline and I am not. There is a crucial point in the game where he has Stage/Depths active Knight and I have active Knight and wasteland. I had several possibilities at my disposal like wasting his Stage and in response to him activating it knighting for another waste to blow up his DD. I end up passing the turn in which he knighted for a waste. A fair move it I didn’t have my own knight. He ends up trying to waste my waste which I go for his DD. He activates in response. I let it happen. After all said and done I knight up Karakas and bounce the token. He realizes his critical play error. Sorry Micah, but hey you got into the tourney report:smile:
2-1


Haha, yeah, I won't make that mistake again! Was nice meeting you none the less.

[monaco.errante]

Hi,

just to have also different opinions... what do you think of the new Liliana in the deck?

http://mythicspoiler.com/emn/cards/lilianathelasthope.jpg

+1 seems not bad as with -2/-1 you can kill a lot of things... additionally, I have always found that dredging creatures (expecially KotR) can create situations you cannot recover and -2 might help....

I'm not saying it is stronger that the Veil version, but maybe it might worth to give it a try...

[hofzge]

+1 seems not bad as with -2/-1 you can kill a lot of things... additionally, I have always found that dredging creatures (expecially KotR) can create situations you cannot recover and -2 might help....

I'm not saying it is stronger that the Veil version, but maybe it might worth to give it a try...

The "+1" is ok and -2 Power helps a lot in all situations besides killing the creature, but the "-2" is quite bad as we play little creatures and thus often will not even net you cards while the -2 on the old Liliana was always card parity and also was able to deal with Griselbrand, Emrakul and Marit Lage.

The Ultimate is ok and will win against things like Miracles (it is similar to Garruk Relentless) but it will not bring you back if you are behind, which the old Liliana did wonderfully (all abilities). Also the old Liliana's +1 fit wonderfully into a deck with LftL and Punishig Fires.

[Claymore]

Actually, new Lili in here might not be too bad. Probably not better than Veil overall.

I don't thinks she's a perfect fit, but she does has some decency about her.

On paper to me, she plays the best when she's surrounded by creatures that can defend her, since in Legacy her +1 defense ability isn't really that great. -2/-1 doesn't really kill anything that you would worry about anyway. Sure she can ping the rare unflipped Delver, Thalia, or Strix, but for actively played creatures in major decks that's about it.

So, the +1 doesn't really fit that great here. Veil's +1 is also more synergistic because we can discard more crap than the opponent, and it puts the screws on an opponent much more than soft removal. Aggro loam currently is a leaner hellbent midrange deck that doesn't need to hold anything.

The -2 plays pretty well here. It can dredge some additional lands or Loams, and actually synergizes with the deck's built-in feature of milling kill conditions. Being able to recur your very limited yet high impact creatures that died to removal - Bob and Knight - can't be overlooked.

The ultimate itself will eventually win the game against most decks, unlike LotV (blashpemy, I know). Veil does have the great ability to threaten to kill a Jace that's about to ultimate, a very bothersome RIP or Counterbalance, or just Armageddon, but past that it's still up to you to win. Watch some old Kennan Haas Jund Depths playing against a Death and Taxes that survived and might have won through two Lili ultimates simply because he kept RiP. Last Hope can at least win without the graveyard or casting spells.

I think she's best in a Goyf Loam Rock deck, where her +1 can muddy combat math in your favor yet still rely on an army for defense and her -2 can get further high impact creatures. Maybe toss in a Vial and some mass destruction (Damnation) or countermagic that Veil wouldn't let you keep. Fuck it, Vhati-Il Dal too.

I think this deck plays too few creatures overall, but she could see some use. Likely not over Veil. Something to think about though.

[aluisiocsantos]

She sounds pretty good, IMO, and as claymore pointed out, maybe not as a replacemente, but perhaps as additional removal or by sideboarding. She is better versus miracles than the current lili too due to the ultimate being more powerful too in this case, though the +1 wouldn't help. She probably has to be used in addition to the other.

[Claymore]

Unfortunately I can imagine you get too many situations where you'd have both Lilianas in hand and can't use both due to the Legendary rule, and then Veil would make you discard everything anyway. I think you'd have to make a choice or swap them in the board. I think new Lili would be better against the likes of Shardless, which have oodles of Abrupt Decays, rather than Miracles with RIPs, Swords, and Termini.

[DaGarver]

I've played this list at the past two weeklies; 2-2 in my first and 3-0-1 (ID) in my second. It feels really strong.

Lands (25):
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Bayou
1 Badlands
1 Barren Moor
1 Forest
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Taiga
1 Tranquil Thicket
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills

Creatures (12):
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Dark Confidant
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Tireless Tracker

Spells (23):
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire
2 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Life from the Loam
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Dismember
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Sylvan Library

Sideboard:
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Thoughtseize
1 Choke
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Golgari Charm
1 Pithing Needle
1 Pyroclasm
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Slaughter Games
1 Toxic Deluge

The 75 is definitely tailored to the current state of my local metagame: Shardless, Loam, Lands, Eldrazi, Miracles, Death and Taxes, and Storm. I've been trying out Tireless Tracker as my "second Sylvan Library" that doubles as a threat and can be found with Zenith. It's been surprisingly powerful and has won me quite a few games with its size. The synergy with Knight is definitely win-more, but it snowballs a game that is already in your favor.

Most recent weekly matchups:

Death and Taxes: Won game one off of a pair of big Knights. Second game went long and I struggled to find more threats to fight through his removal, which made me miss the pair of Chalices that I had cut for more density. Got there on the back of Garruk Relentless. (-2 Chalice, -1 Loam, -1 Teeg, +1 Pyroclasm, +1 Deluge, +1 Garruk, +1 Pithing Needle) I'm honestly not sure how I should be boarding out in this matchup. Chalice seems bad, but it protects our threats. Maybe I should be cutting some amount of spot removal to fit in the sweepers.
Storm: Won game one by finding a turn 3 Gaddock Teeg on the play. Won game 2 with the sequence: turn 2 Teeg, turn 3 Waste a Trop to force Decay into Ad Nauseam and follow-up with Chalice. Played a Knight on turn 4 to have him dead in one turn. My opponent found a Hurkyl's but misstepped and fetched the wrong land on his turn 5.
Bant Cloudpost: Lost game 1 due to not enough Wasteland. Won games 2 and 3 because I had 2+ Wastelands. His list was interesting; I cut my Chalices, a Punishing Fire, and 2 Decay for 3 Plows, 2 Thoughtseize, a Sage, and a Slaughter Games.


Opinions on how I board are appreciated; I love hearing other players' thoughts on sideboarding strategies.

Things that I've considered recently:

Tabernacle over Pyroclasm. I'm mostly out on this one for price reasons right now, but I am considering testing it.
Dark Depths combo. I feel like I would want to cut Lilianas from the deck to safely fit this into the manabase.
Volrath's Stronghold. This seems like a reasonable concession to not being able to fit Dark Depths into the deck while still giving us a recurring threat base with Life from the Loam. I'm mostly down on this right now due to the abundance of Swords to Plowshares in my metagame, though it would help out the Shardless and mirror matchups.
Stoneforge package, probably 2 Mystic + Batterskull + Jitte. I'm honestly not sure where I would find room for this given how much space it takes up. Maybe cutting the sweepers?

[apocolyps6]

Hi DaGarver,

There has been some good discussion about Tabernacle, DD Combo, and Volrath's Stronghold in the last 10 or so pages here, so it is probably worth going back and rereading that.

I played with that SFM package during the Treasure Cruise era instead of the Dark Confidants. The best deck in the format was an aggro deck, and the SFM package helped us stabilize against 1/1 Elementals. These days I don't think doing this would be a good meta call, and the package is way too large to cut anything else for it.

It looks like the only deck that Slaughter Games rally shines against in your meta is Storm, which is a fine matchup without it, so I would be tempted to cut it for something better.

I'm personally a big fan of Marit Lage over Lili, and given your other mana-intensive cards (Tireless Tracker, Pulse) I think the change of lowering the curve and upping the mana source(s) would be good for you

[Claymore]

Word on the street is that Thalia Heretic is very good, especially when you can force her out early, and could be strong in a deck that utilizes Loam and Wastelands. I don't know where to put her aside from either Liliana or Dark Confidant. Thoughts?

[apocolyps6]

My initial thought is that it isn't a great fit. She is pretty dead later in the late game, shifts the gameplan a lot, etc. That being said, it doesn't make sense to evaluate these kinds of cards without testing. So I'm looking forward to being wrong :p

[btm10]

My big concern is not being able to find her with GSZ. My guess is that she's about as good as Kolaghan's Command, but isn't quite worth cutting one of the core cards for.

In other news, I'm off of Bog, Stage, Depths, and Crop Rotation. I missed Badlands more than I expected, and definitely missed the second Sylvan Library.