[Deck] Aggro Loam

[Dr_D]

Finished first MTGO league
Elves
S/S
Dredge
Elves
Elves



Combo summer incoming.... (Ended 4-1, lost to S/S)

It's like every new starcraft 2 expansion: When the expansion hits, there's a bunch of aggressive all-in builds (combo decks) that seem impossible to stop because nobody knows how the meta will settle, then people realize how fragile the builds are, and how to defend it (adjust sideboard) and suddenly it's not unstoppable anymore.

[Stuhl]

I would say Aggro Loam/Maverick > "fair" combo (ANT sytle). If you have at least 1-2 untap steps jam Thalia, chalice (on 0 in worst case) and try to get Teeg.
After boarding it usually gets even better.

It's combo > Loam/Maverick whenever it's T1 "do you have force of will?" style. But honest ANT players fear Thalia, Teeg and Chalice.

I think Maverick gets better now. Mom seems strong without Terminus. Yet, elves is a horrible Mav MU but a reasonable Loam MU.
However, if Nic Fit style decks rise... Maverick is better dealing with that.

Hard to say right now.

I need some Input fast :D MKM series next weekend!

[Claymore]

Sounds reasonable, but I don't think I agree with any of that, not in my experience at least.

ANT can go off turn 2 easily, especially once they see you're not running blue. For Loam you can get Chalice T1 and get there with that (except for Burning Wish - Shattering Spree), but still not a given. Maverick needs to win the die roll and then have turn 2 Thalia, and hope they don't die anyway. Game 2 and 3 they bring in countermeasures, so your Turn 2 Thalia/Teeg turns into Abrupt Decay your 1 hate bear, kill you.

Nic Fit is a terrible matchup for Loam and Maverick. Deeds for your entire board, your punishing fire doesn't do anything, no disruption to stop Explorer from landing, you're not fast enough to kill them before they accelerate into the late game. You can still stop them on the pure awkwardness of the deck though, with stuff like Chalice to get under Explorer or Pridemage to discourage open Deeds if they don't have a marquee opening.

I think discard and board wipes (Golgari, Deluge) out of the board will be strong. The control decks can't play off of the top anymore and Combo will be everywhere. Not sure if Thoughtseize or Hymns will be better. I'm interested if Leyline of the Void is better than Surgical right now. The Goyf version of Loam might be a bit stronger if everyone goes for BUG Midrange.

I'm actually really interested in Destructive Flow but likely not here.

[Stuhl]

Hm, maybe I was lucky in the past, but I'm sure my combo MU is positive.

But we will see how the meta adopts. Right now we only can guess.

[apocolyps6]

I've played Flow before, but you really have to be sure the opponent has 0-1 basics, because the card hits us pretty hard as well.

I really like my chances against ANT. If you are willing to mull to 5, your chances of getting a Chalice are 72.7%, and the chances of getting Chalice or Mox is 93.2% (mox hands have a decent chance for 2 mana disruption) Then there is the chances of acceleration into Zenith for Teeg. Not sure what the numbers are on that, but its pretty good. Even if the chalice only delays them by a couple of turns, that allows all of the supplemental disruption to turn on. and I'm not even rly talking about postboard.

My plan against Nic Fit is to turbo out Lage. Depending on the build, even if they see it they often can't stop it. Last night I played against Sneak Fit and 2-0ed him both times with Marit Lage. If they can deal with knight, I agree the matchup is rly unpleasant tho.

Edit: Also, it is far form obvious to me to cut second Library. If for no other reason than "colorless library" just got banned, but more srsly because it digs towards answers against combo, and wins games against fair decks.

[Claymore]

I agree on keeping 2 Libraries.

Do you people put out Chalice on 1 or 0 against ANT? I know it's different depending on TES or ANT...feel like ANT might be better to hit them on 1, and TES on 0.

[apocolyps6]

I think 1 is better against both (to turn off cantripping into answers) but against TES you have less time, so you play it if you have it. The real goal against both is Teeg, so you are looking primarily to buy time to Zenith/Libaray/Bob into Teeg. I thiink if I have chalice on the play against ANT (and no other disruption) its fine to wait that extra turn. Curious to see how others play it tho.

[Digitend89]

For both storm variants I just jam chalice on zero if I'm on the play because I'm just afraid to just die right then and there and it seems to work out, but that probably just confirmation bias talking. On the draw I'll usually do it on one

For nic fit I feel unfavored but I don't run the DD combo.

[Bobmans]

If my opponent has not made any play yet i put it on 1. Else, if he has already casted some Brainstorm then on 0. You always have to take that educated guess on what his hands looks like. What would Hurt him the most on that moment, is what i am asking myself. Sometimes they will preamptive drop led to avoid Chalice 0. If the game takes long enough, then Chalice on 2 can also Hurt a lot. Btw i always board Golgari Charm in case of Empty the Warrens. And Deluge if i am sure they have it.
Edit: Also they sometimes just cast stuff even while Chalice will counter it for storm, or just to poke if we forgot it.

[Ephemeron]

If my opponent has not made any play yet i put it on 1. Else, if he has already casted some Brainstorm then on 0. You always have to take that educated guess on what his hands looks like. What would Hurt him the most on that moment, is what i am asking myself. Sometimes they will preamptive drop led to avoid Chalice 0. If the game takes long enough, then Chalice on 2 can also Hurt a lot. Btw i always board Golgari Charm in case of Empty the Warrens. And Deluge if i am sure they have it.
Edit: Also they sometimes just cast stuff even while Chalice will counter it for storm, or just to poke if we forgot it.

Yeah, Golgari Charm is sneaky useful against ANT. More than once I've used it to regenerate Gaddock Teeg when he eats an Abrupt Decay.

I've always gone with chalice on 1 first and then chalice on 0 if it's game one. Chalice on 1 is just so much more back breaking I think it's worth risking getting blown out by a heavy LED/Petal hand, even if it's turn 2 on the draw. In sideboarded games, I'm always torn between whether the second chalice should be for 0 or just 1 again to hedge against Decay.

[Stuhl]

@MatsOle: Is Vindicate really better than Pulse? I mean, Vindicate hits a land but despite that Pulse is better. Also green is more in our colors than white. I'm really interested in the reason why you play Vindicate over Pulse.

[CptHaddock]

Yeah, Golgari Charm is sneaky useful against ANT. More than once I've used it to regenerate Gaddock Teeg when he eats an Abrupt Decay.

I've always gone with chalice on 1 first and then chalice on 0 if it's game one. Chalice on 1 is just so much more back breaking I think it's worth risking getting blown out by a heavy LED/Petal hand, even if it's turn 2 on the draw. In sideboarded games, I'm always torn between whether the second chalice should be for 0 or just 1 again to hedge against Decay.

Regeneration is such a fantastic mode, i've had people read the card multiple times after pulling a trick like that.

I'll usually try to play either a chalice on 1 or chalice on 0 if I can't play a chalice on 1 early enough. Postboard a chalice for 1 usually stops them from digging if they kept a hand without hate. Sometimes they just have the mono 2 drop hand or the hand that goes off without any petals/leds but what can you do?

[juzamjimjams]

From my experience ANT is reasonable, Chalice on one is usually where I want to be - you really do need pressure though, they can get there off 0 drops and Cabal Rituals alone.
Chrome Moxen make it interesting though, for TES and Belcher where you have less time, jamming on 0 can do some work while you dig for your Teeg.

I will definitely be sticking to two libraries for the time being, I'll also be moving to Dark Depths until the meta settles a little.

[MatsOle]

@MatsOle: Is Vindicate really better than Pulse? I mean, Vindicate hits a land but despite that Pulse is better. Also green is more in our colors than white. I'm really interested in the reason why you play Vindicate over Pulse.

It's better in your bad matchups and worse in your good matchups.

[Kirt]

Hi guys, without miracles maybe we need to do some changes, i was thinking about play only 1 sylvan library and maybe move gaddock tegg to sideboard, thougs about that?

[Digitend89]

As of right now, I think teeg should stay in the main. Storm and elves is rampant online right now, but adjust for local meta of course. As for library I'm torn, on one hand its slow, but on the other hand this deck does have consistency issues.

[justarandomdude]

I always played with only 1 sylvan library, so thats fine for me. We just don´t have enough space in the main/sideboard to play all cards we want to. Even more now, where we maybe want to play a sweeper in the main. More basics because of the bloodmoon decks, maybe the combo to be faster etc...

About Teeg, he needs to stay in the deck. Against elves and storm (ant,tes) he is a really good card. Elves can´t go for zenith/order so only normal draws except a glimpse. If you have a chalice he has to draw natural rec. sage. And game 1 against storm is a 99,9% auto win.

[apocolyps6]

Is speed really the criticism for library? IMO Bob is slower. They both do nothing for a turn, and then library sees more cards. Library is also more likely to survive.

Also, the last time we talked about the number of libraries was at the top of this very page. Just saying "hey how about 1" again doesn't add anything that wasn't said a couple days ago. Of course anyone can play anything they want, but the goal of having a legit discussion is to have good reasons for why certain decisions are made. Bringing up speed for example gives us an actual tangible metric to compare/evaluate

[Digitend89]

You know now that I think about it, I don't think speed is really an issue. Since most people are talking about replacing it with a sweeper in the main I got to thinking about how are the matchups we need that sweeper against pre-board. How much help is a singleton sweeper gonna do against TNN or elves vs library. You might kill a bunch of elves, but they rebuild pretty quick. You might kill a TNN or two but then what.

Library and loam helps dig for pfire against elves and helps us be proactive and develope our game plan against TNN and I think that more important than one sweeper.

[Pilhas]

The thing about Bob is that it presents a clock against combo while searching for lock pieces....

[Pilhas]

Can anyone share their plans against Sneak and Show. Struggling with the matchup against people who know what they are doing.

[rabidw0lf]

Containment priests if you are playing them. Teeg Karakas and praying for luck. I think i'm 3/10 in SneakShow matchup, its just been a horrid matchup. Even if you turn them off 1 with chalice, they can just go tomb petal and show.
I think i board something like -3 decay -3 pfire -1 Library +2 Thalia, +3 Swords +1 Golgari Charm +1 Rec Sage.

[Bobmans]

Holding a Knight in hand in case they SnT, untap, fetch Karakas, profit.

I wouldnt board Decay - > Pithing Needle on Karakas or KotR is not so nice.

[Kirt]

IMO vs show and sneak is like 60/40, if u have knight hold and wait for snt and gsz to gaddock (vs sneack attack), with karakas and gaddock tegg u cant lose.
The problem is Omnitell, karakas is useless, gaddock tegg is useless, in my experiencie vs Omnitell is 90% lose...

[hovercraft]

They have a lot of basics so they fetch around Wasteland easily. Chalice on 1 only shuts down their cantrips, 0 shuts out petals. Not always enough.
Diabolic edict in board maybe? Or anything to tax their mana more efficiently than chalice and wasteland, something like Thorn of Amethyst. Pyroblasts can hit SnT and Omni. Pithing needle and Revoker can hit Grisel and Sneak attack. It's really hard to find options that can work against both Sneak and Show. Trinisphere can help against Omni.

[Claymore]

Crop Rotations in the side to fetch Karakas could help.

Canonist in the side could help against Omni. It helped drag out a game last week for me (on top of Chalice on 1) but I couldn't finish, 1 turn from lethal.

Discard, hate piece, clock.

Qasali Pridemage can help against both decks, and good against the surge of DnT we're likely to see.

[Pilhas]

IMO vs show and sneak is like 60/40, if u have knight hold and wait for snt and gsz to gaddock (vs sneack attack), with karakas and gaddock tegg u cant lose.
The problem is Omnitell, karakas is useless, gaddock tegg is useless, in my experiencie vs Omnitell is 90% lose...

Omnitell makes it worse, but if you are playing against good players they will never do S&T->Creature unless they are almost dead... They only go for Sneal Attack or S&T->Sneak Attack.
Everytime I play the matchup it is horrible, unless they don't know what they are doing and just s&t->creature....

Nowadays (at least online) people now what we aim so they play accordingly.
Also try to leave a couple of decays in cause of Blood Moon/Pithing Needle.

I usually board
-2 loam
-1 library
-3 pfire
-2 decay
-1 toxic deluge
+2 thoughtseize
+2 canonnist
+1 priest
+2 golgari charm
+2 swords

[Digitend89]

Ouch looks like 4 out of the 5 sneak and show 5-0 list in the league pack omni main board

[CptHaddock]

Omnitell makes it worse, but if you are playing against good players they will never do S&T->Creature unless they are almost dead... They only go for Sneal Attack or S&T->Sneak Attack.
Everytime I play the matchup it is horrible, unless they don't know what they are doing and just s&t->creature....

Nowadays (at least online) people now what we aim so they play accordingly.
Also try to leave a couple of decays in cause of Blood Moon/Pithing Needle.

I usually board
-2 loam
-1 library
-3 pfire
-2 decay
-1 toxic deluge
+2 thoughtseize
+2 canonnist
+1 priest
+2 golgari charm
+2 swords

I'm roughly the same, I don't bring in the swords though. Plan is ideally to keep slamming threats and not die. I normally do the following.

-1 Loam
-3 Punishing Fire
-1 Maze of Ith
-2 Decay

+2 Thoughtseize
+1 Ethersworn Canonist
+1 Containment Priest
+1 Reclamation Sage
+1 Golgari Charm
+1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance

[apocolyps6]

Hey folks, I just lost in finals of a GPT and was wondering how others would have played this game.

Game 1: Opponent is the higher seed, and leads with duress, taking the chalice out of an otherwise bad hand. I draw chalice and figure it has to go on 1 to stop the opponent, so I wait a turn. Opponent has the kill on Turn 2.

I board in : 2 Thalia, 3 Leyline, 2 Thoughtsieze, 2x Choke

Game 2: My 7 is Thoughtsieze, Bayou, Mox Diamond, 2 Chalice of the Void, 1 Sylvan Library, 1 Choke.

Is this a keep?

I keep, figuring I have just over 50% chance to draw the second land (I'm playing 28), and have 2 live pieces otherwise.

I see 2 Cabal Ritual, Dark Rit, Cabal Therapy, Gitaxian Probe, Fetch, Echoing Truth. I figure I lose the 2nd chalice if I don't take Therapy, and in terms of combo pieces, all the opponent has is mana. If I disrupt the opponent's mana, I can maybe beat Truth.

I play a Chalice on 0, and pass (playing around some brainstorm+LED-based nut-draw, but decreasing my live land draw to 43%)

Opponent plays fetch, passes.

I draw a tapland, play it pass. Opponent brainstorm on my EOT, untaps, brainstorms, and plays a fetch.

I untap, draw a bob, and play chalice for 1 (opponent can't EOT Truth me, so I'm safe for 1 more turn.)

Opponent draws and passes.

I draw a Wasteland. I play choke, thinking an EOT Truth destroys 2 duals (opp's fetch can't get swamp) and then I lose to exactly topdecked IMS (opponent doesn't already have it).
Wastelanding here instead kinda plays around truth.

Opponent has it.

So, choke was for sure a mistake, But how about the rest of it? On one hand, we have 3 disruptive cards, on the other a hand with Mox or Leyline is probably better. I'm pretty sure I'd mull if I hadn't played 7 hrs of magic before this game :tongue:

[hovercraft]

I don't think I would have kept that hand, especially on the play. But it's tough. With a 2nd land it would be much better.

[iatee]

(I was watching the game from apocolyps6's opponent's side.)

I think the biggest mistake you made was taking Cabal Therapy with your Thoughtseize. If you take Probe, his hand is now nothing but mana, bounce and a blind Therapy. When I was looking at his opening hand, I considered it risky for that reason - he had a lot of mana, but he could just have a few poor draw steps and not really do anything. There is a chance he hits your 2nd Chalice with his blind Therapy, but the fact that you already played a Chalice would make him less likely to guess it. You could also play act that you're playing your Chalice on 0 just because you don't want it taken from your hand next turn, like think about the decision for a long time. I think in his spot I might have guessed something like GSZ instead. I'd still consider Chalice, but it really is surprising to see double Chalice so early two games in a row. Plus he's not even that scared of the card compared to some other form of disruption since he has Echoing Truth.

I think the % of your 6 card hands that were gonna be better than that 7 game 2 is extremely low, so I think that was an easy keep.

[apocolyps6]

Are the chances extremely low? I think I'm 67.8% to land non-Thoughtseize hate on turn 1 after mulling the 7 (not counting <5 card hands). And some of the hands that have turn 2 disruption might be better than that 7 as well.

Taking probe is something I briefly thought about, but clearly not enough. I think I concluded the opponent might just name the card he knew about anyway. Playing a chalice on 0 after seeing no 0s, and taking the cantrip looks really suspicious, doesn't it? Especially after I didn't play out a chalice on 0 in game 1.

[iatee]

I just asked Devin and he said

"Hmm I think it probably would have decided between Thalia, teeg, or gsz but I'm not sure. I had truth so I'm not worried about chalice for the moment."

Talking w/ a few Storm bros they seem to agree on the Therapy since Chalice on 1 is still more annoying than anything else you could possibly have, so maybe it was correct only because Devin (and I) aren't Storm experts.

[Bobmans]

Aggro Loam in top 8 in Frankfurt, excited to see the list tomorow.

Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-G935F met Tapatalk

[Digitend89]

It's up. Ghost quarter main and a collective brutality in side
http://series.magiccardmarket.eu/2017/04/30/felix-bolland-punishing-loam/

[Nelo]

Just came home from mkms Frankfurt, and there was a pretty decent amount of Loam players around - i even played the Mirror.

Dropped after 3 -1 -3 (I'm still a noob :tongue: )

I think Stoneblade was one of the most played Decks, and because of my bad skills i lost twice against it :rolleyes:

[Bobmans]

It's up. Ghost quarter main and a collective brutality in side
http://series.magiccardmarket.eu/2017/04/30/felix-bolland-punishing-loam/

Great job at getting to top8!

Though call, personally i am kind off torn between DD/Stage vs Cabal Pit/GQ. It seems that there lot of decks that have a hard time dealing with Marit Lage.

Collective Brutality seems interesting at some point. At least it is discard that plays around Chalice 1.

Would we still want Garruk Relentless in the current meta? I basically only boarded it vs Miracles.

[CptHaddock]

Would we still want Garruk Relentless in the current meta? I basically only boarded it vs Miracles.

Really? I found myself boarding in walkers in basically every noncombo matchup with the only exceptions being elves/painter so I have additional removal spells.

[NEELEY]

Really? I found myself boarding in walkers in basically every noncombo matchup with the only exceptions being elves/painter so I have additional removal spells.

I board it in for both those match ups. A kill spell into a tutor has always been good for me against elves ON THEY PLAY. A great card vs bloodmoon decks as well.

[Snowfire]

How do you guys approach all the BUG piles (TNN, Shardless, Aluren, Food Chain)? I really struggle against those.

[hovercraft]

You are definitely relying on Wasteland(+Loam) to get you ahead vs BUG. Having the DD-Stage out helps, as besides Diabolic Edict they don't have many ways to deal with it. Toxic Deluge main can help as well especially for TNN versions.

[Treacleson]

Hey all first time poster, been playing loam about a year now, I've been experimenting with red elemental blast as a post board answer to tnn, leovold and jace, It also adds a little protection against show and tell and just as interaction for countermagic.

I'm also experimenting with an odd configuration of lands creatures and sideboard slots, with a deathrite in the sideboard to come in against bloodmoon, burn decks graveyard strategies and a grim flayer in the main doing a sylvan library on a stick impression. It has strong synergy with Dark confidant life from the loam and punishing fire. I want another set of eyes on this deck just so I can get a second opinion.

Critique is welcome

http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/4colour-loam-tour-guides/

[Digitend89]

Hey all first time poster, been playing loam about a year now, I've been experimenting with red elemental blast as a post board answer to tnn, leovold and jace, It also adds a little protection against show and tell and just as interaction for countermagic.

I'm also experimenting with an odd configuration of lands creatures and sideboard slots, with a deathrite in the sideboard to come in against bloodmoon, burn decks graveyard strategies and a grim flayer in the main doing a sylvan library on a stick impression. It has strong synergy with Dark confidant life from the loam and punishing fire. I want another set of eyes on this deck just so I can get a second opinion.

Critique is welcome

http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/4colour-loam-tour-guides/

For the REB at least I don't think it worth the two side board slots because we don't have anything to dig for it when we need to like brainstorm decks do if you're looking to use it as a counter.

[justarandomdude]

Niklas kronberger played a "new version" of this deck at the mkm Series.
It looked like he did not play black, but instead blue for flusterstorm, Meddling mage, fow?

Would be nice to hear your reasoning (of course of the anticipated more combo) and how the deck performed :)

[schniggaz]

Dropped at 5-2 because I had some medical issues and decided to go home. Deck was awesome. It would need someone who has more time than me to test the deck. A friend of mine played it as well and we had a lot of fun. Like Dazing your opponents FOW on your Chalice, hitting a Primeval Titan with Telemin Performance or stealing a Blightsteel Colossus with Dack Fayden. It was great :D

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Vendilion Clique

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Life from the Loam
1 Sylvan Library

4 Punishing Fire
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Blessed Alliance
1 Councils Judgement

4 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice of the Void

2 Flusterstorm
1 Daze

4 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
1 Arid Mesa
2 Tundra
2 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island
1 Savannah
1 Plateau
1 Plains
1 Irrigated Farmland
1 Lonely Sandbar
1 Maze of Ith
1 Karakas
4 Wasteland
3 Grove of the Burnwillows

SB
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Meddling Mage
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Containment Priest
2 Wear//Tear
1 Telemin Performance
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Flusterstorm
1 Firespout
1 Dack Fayden

[Treacleson]

For the REB at least I don't think it worth the two side board slots because we don't have anything to dig for it when we need to like brainstorm decks do if you're looking to use it as a counter.

My reasoning on the REB is that it has a little more versatility in the late game as a top deck than thoughseize, but I see how thoughtseize would generally be better in the hard match-ups for the deck. I'm definitely keeping a close eye on that slot tho.

How do you feel about drs in the sideboard vs. In the main/ I've been having trouble identifying the flex slots. As far as I can tell They're the DRS slot, Maze of ith and the maelstrompulse/abrupt decay 4 slot. Is that accurate/ are there any I missed?

[Stuhl]

Hi everyone,

I'm the confused looking guy who top8'ed the MKM series with (classic) Aggro Loam this weekend. There is also one feature match on twitch (https://www.twitch.tv/videos/139161769) covering my only loss in the swiss rounds (ironically against Eldrazi).

I will share my thoughts about the 75 and give you a tournament report. I did not write down any notes so it will be rather short.


Main Deck:

4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Life from the Loam
2 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Sylvan Library
3 Punishing Fire
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
4 Wasteland
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 badlands
1 Taiga
1 Savannah
1 Barren Moor
1 Tranquil Thicket
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Maze of Ith
1 Karakas
1 Cabal Pit
1 Forest

Sideboard:

3 Leyline of the Void
1 Garruk Relentless / Garruk, the Veil-Cursed
2 Golgari Charm
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Containment Priest
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Thoughtseize
1 Collective Brutality

I think I played a pretty stock list (mixture of several MTGO results) this weekend. I will just point out the MD flex slots and the SB:

Main:

No Deathrite Shaman: A lot of people play DS as a one off. In the opening hand he is a sweet card. Drawing him during the game with a Chalice on 1 is weird. Zenith for 1 on T1 (via Mox) is in my eyes either a "I don't have anything better to do" or "my opponent plays Reanimator" action. Often this play is bad anyways when you figure out your opponent is on Storm and you just wasted your Zenith to get Gaddock Teeg.
Long story short: I felt like DS is not that impactful enough and decided to use this slot for Ghost Quarter.

Ghost Quarter: I felt like there will be a lot 4c good stuff lists consisting of a Leovold BUG core. As these decks do not play any basic lands Ghost Quarter essentially functions as Wasteland #5. Mana denial is really strong against all these greedy 4c lists.

Toxic Deluge: People have different tastes when it comes to the Deluge/Pulse/Vindicate slot. Inspired by MatsOle I started to test Vindicate. I never really liked it. In this new meta Elves, Stoneblade, Delver, DnT and other creature based decks seem to have a comeback and whenever I drew Vindicate I wished it was a Deluge.


Sideboard:


Planeswalker: I only played one Planeswalker in my SB. I definitely would like to play Chandra, Torch of Defiance again but right now it seems like more Planeswalker in the SB make our better MUs better (i.e. 4c greed lists, Delver, grindy MUs in general) but do not help in worse MUs (i.e. fast combo, Burn, UR Delver). However, I'm not sure if Garruk is the right choice as a Planeswalker (never really saw him this tournament anyways). I'm sure this is also a matter of taste.

Collective Brutality: Burn/UR Delver and fast combo decks are not a good MU for Aggro Loam. We also struggle with Deathrite Shaman. In my eyes Collective Brutality is a flexible card which can be used as a simple removal spell to handle a problematic creature (DS/Delver/Bob/...), taking a spell (combo piece/burn spell/removal/...) or simply gain some life against burn decks. The beaty is that all these possibilities can be combined by just discarding land cards (or recursion cards like Loam/PFire) to maybe grow our KotR or fill the grave for Cabal Pit. Moreover you can play this as a discard spell over Chalice on 1.

Reclamation Sage: With the rise of DnT, Stoneblade and Sneak and Show (possibly also Aluren and Food Chain) decks I think we definitely want this card.

Thoughtseize: In the fear of combo decks I decided to play 2 Thoughtseize as well. Against real combo we also want a T1 disruption which can handle everything. Especially in case of a no-Mox hand a T1 play is very important.

Containment Priest: I just wanted to have some more hate against Sneak and Show decks.


I think the rest of the SB is pretty stock as well.

Tournament report:

Round #1: Mirror (2-1)

As it is the nature of Aggro Loam mirrors it was a grindfest. I won the 1st game with fast KotR.
Game #2 I started with Leyline but my opponent was able to stick his Bob early and take over the game.
Game #3 I again had a Leyline. After some grinding we both were in top deck mode. Besides my Leyline I had the better draws here so I was able to take over the game.


Round #2: Burn (2-0)

I think my opponent was pretty new to the format. He also seemed nervous. I won game #1 with a big KotR and Lili (for some reason he did not kill her, so he had to discard burn spells).
Game#2 he started with Goblin Guide. I played Brutality with all modes on T1 (living the dream, discarding two lands) followed by a 4/4 KotR T2.

Round #3: Elves (2-0)

Game #1 won Chalice on 1 and a timely Deluge.
Game #2 my opponent started with Leyline but the game was ruled by Gaddock Teeg, Lili and Ethersorn Canonist making it more or less impossible for my opponent to do anything. Yet, my clock was pretty slow (2/2 KotR) and I had to give him a lot of draws. In the end Lili ulti closed out the game.

Round #4: Infect (2-1)

Game #1 I was killed by a T3 Blighted Agent in berserk mode (did not find a removal).
Game #2 I killed his Hierarch and wasted his Topical Island. As it turned out he kept a one lander...
Game #3 I had a T1 Bob into several Decays so I could kill all the Infecters he played. Bob put me ahead from there.

Round #5: Jund (2-1)

Game #1 I had large KotR to grind the game out. Also Chalice on 1 did some little things like countering a cascaded DS.
Game #2 I was overrun by big Goyfs.
Game #3 my opponents mana base was soft and he could not handle my Wasteland/Loam hand. I finally won woth big KotRs.

Round #6: UR Delver (2-0)

We all know that this isn't the best MU. However, game #1 I resolved a Chalice on 1 and apparently got him totally on 1 cmc spells. After wasting one of his two Volcanic Islands the game was over.
Game #2 was also won by a Chalice on 1. He did not find his Smashes and Bedlam Reveller gave him three 1 cmc spells while being smaller than my KotR.


Round #7: Elves [Julian Knab] (2-0)

I honestly don't know how I won game #1. He was on the play, I mulled to five keeping a desperate one lander with Mox, PFire, Grove, Lili and KotR and scryed a land on top. All my draws were perfectly sequenced according to this starting hand so that I was able to fight through 2 active DS and take over the game.
Game #2 I had the nuts. T1 Ethersworn Canonist into T2 PFire with Grove into T3 Chalice on 1.

Round #8: Stoneblade (1-1-1)

Game #1 I lost to a TNN. He had 3 Noble Hierarchs not giving my Lili a chance to do something here. Did not find Deluge.
Game #2 I was able to take the game over with Wastelands.
Game #3 was a grindfest and at some point both of us had our hand full of removal spells but the battlefield was empty. Rec Sage killed his Batterskull which was very relevant.

Round #9: Eldrazi (1-2)

I did not play smooth in Game #1. As I did not know on what deck my opponent was I desiced to not play Mox on T1 but rater fake a BUG deck by just playing Catacombs. Apparently he knew that I was on Loam as he played his Chalice on 0 destroying my plan to play Lili on T2. He countered the Deluge I set up to get rid of 2 TNS and an Endless One. However, I should have known that he had Warping Wail as both TNS did not take my Deluge. With that in mind I shouldn't have wasted his Eye of Ugin but rather his mana producing land as this would have risen my chances that he does not have 2 mana to cast Warping Wail.
Game #2 I won through a very grindy fight.
Game #3 I kept a slow hand (Library, Zenith, Loam,Rec Sage) without Removal or Wastelands. As it turned out he had a super fast start. His board was weak but I was too slow to find answers. Should have mulliganed this hand for sure.

Round #10: 4c Czech Pile [Thomas Mar] (2-0)

Game #1 won a T1 Bob. He did not find an answer to Bob (concerning that he pondered really hard I think I was pretty lucky here) and soon a Chalice on 1 closed the game.
Game #2 I was on the Wasteland/Loam plan. With finally 6 Dual Lands in his graveyard the game was over.

Quarter Finals: BR Reanimator (1-2)

My opponent had a better placement so he was on the play and started with a T1 Griselbrand as he knew I was on Loam and had no disruption.
Game #2 I hade double Leyling into Ooze into Chalice on 1.
Game #3 I did not find a Leyline. My mulligan to 5 has at least a Chalice on 1. Well, he put a T1 Gravetitan on the battlefield...


I hope you found this useful. I felt very comfortable with the deck. However, I was lucky to never face any Sneak and Show decks in 10 rounds :D


The blue version of this deck seems interesting. However, I don't like blue.deck :D

[CptHaddock]

Dropped at 5-2 because I had some medical issues and decided to go home. Deck was awesome. It would need someone who has more time than me to test the deck. A friend of mine played it as well and we had a lot of fun. Like Dazing your opponents FOW on your Chalice, hitting a Primeval Titan with Telemin Performance or stealing a Blightsteel Colossus with Dack Fayden. It was great :D


Wow your list looks like a bigger pile than the original list. :tongue: So what were your matchups and what caused you to change to a bant splashing red deck?

@Stuhl

Congratulations on your result! How did you end up liking the Collective Brutality? I know that it's something that was previously discussed in this but it never really caught on.

[btm10]

Hi everyone,

I'm the confused looking guy who top8'ed the MKM series with (classic) Aggro Loam this weekend. There is also one feature match on twitch (https://www.twitch.tv/videos/139161769) covering my only loss in the swiss rounds (ironically against Eldrazi).

I will share my thoughts about the 75 and give you a tournament report. I did not write down any notes so it will be rather short.


Main Deck:

4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Life from the Loam
2 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Sylvan Library
3 Punishing Fire
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
4 Wasteland
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 badlands
1 Taiga
1 Savannah
1 Barren Moor
1 Tranquil Thicket
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Maze of Ith
1 Karakas
1 Cabal Pit
1 Forest

Sideboard:

3 Leyline of the Void
1 Garruk Relentless / Garruk, the Veil-Cursed
2 Golgari Charm
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Containment Priest
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Thoughtseize
1 Collective Brutality

I think I played a pretty stock list (mixture of several MTGO results) this weekend. I will just point out the MD flex slots and the SB:

Main:

No Deathrite Shaman: A lot of people play DS as a one off. In the opening hand he is a sweet card. Drawing him during the game with a Chalice on 1 is weird. Zenith for 1 on T1 (via Mox) is in my eyes either a "I don't have anything better to do" or "my opponent plays Reanimator" action. Often this play is bad anyways when you figure out your opponent is on Storm and you just wasted your Zenith to get Gaddock Teeg.
Long story short: I felt like DS is not that impactful enough and decided to use this slot for Ghost Quarter.

Ghost Quarter: I felt like there will be a lot 4c good stuff lists consisting of a Leovold BUG core. As these decks do not play any basic lands Ghost Quarter essentially functions as Wasteland #5. Mana denial is really strong against all these greedy 4c lists.

Toxic Deluge: People have different tastes when it comes to the Deluge/Pulse/Vindicate slot. Inspired by MatsOle I started to test Vindicate. I never really liked it. In this new meta Elves, Stoneblade, Delver, DnT and other creature based decks seem to have a comeback and whenever I drew Vindicate I wished it was a Deluge.


Sideboard:


Planeswalker: I only played one Planeswalker in my SB. I definitely would like to play Chandra, Torch of Defiance again but right now it seems like more Planeswalker in the SB make our better MUs better (i.e. 4c greed lists, Delver, grindy MUs in general) but do not help in worse MUs (i.e. fast combo, Burn, UR Delver). However, I'm not sure if Garruk is the right choice as a Planeswalker (never really saw him this tournament anyways). I'm sure this is also a matter of taste.

Collective Brutality: Burn/UR Delver and fast combo decks are not a good MU for Aggro Loam. We also struggle with Deathrite Shaman. In my eyes Collective Brutality is a flexible card which can be used as a simple removal spell to handle a problematic creature (DS/Delver/Bob/...), taking a spell (combo piece/burn spell/removal/...) or simply gain some life against burn decks. The beaty is that all these possibilities can be combined by just discarding land cards (or recursion cards like Loam/PFire) to maybe grow our KotR or fill the grave for Cabal Pit. Moreover you can play this as a discard spell over Chalice on 1.

Reclamation Sage: With the rise of DnT, Stoneblade and Sneak and Show (possibly also Aluren and Food Chain) decks I think we definitely want this card.

Thoughtseize: In the fear of combo decks I decided to play 2 Thoughtseize as well. Against real combo we also want a T1 disruption which can handle everything. Especially in case of a no-Mox hand a T1 play is very important.

Containment Priest: I just wanted to have some more hate against Sneak and Show decks.


I think the rest of the SB is pretty stock as well.

Tournament report:

Round #1: Mirror (2-1)

As it is the nature of Aggro Loam mirrors it was a grindfest. I won the 1st game with fast KotR.
Game #2 I started with Leyline but my opponent was able to stick his Bob early and take over the game.
Game #3 I again had a Leyline. After some grinding we both were in top deck mode. Besides my Leyline I had the better draws here so I was able to take over the game.


Round #2: Burn (2-0)

I think my opponent was pretty new to the format. He also seemed nervous. I won game #1 with a big KotR and Lili (for some reason he did not kill her, so he had to discard burn spells).
Game#2 he started with Goblin Guide. I played Brutality with all modes on T1 (living the dream, discarding two lands) followed by a 4/4 KotR T2.

Round #3: Elves (2-0)

Game #1 won Chalice on 1 and a timely Deluge.
Game #2 my opponent started with Leyline but the game was ruled by Gaddock Teeg, Lili and Ethersorn Canonist making it more or less impossible for my opponent to do anything. Yet, my clock was pretty slow (2/2 KotR) and I had to give him a lot of draws. In the end Lili ulti closed out the game.

Round #4: Infect (2-1)

Game #1 I was killed by a T3 Blighted Agent in berserk mode (did not find a removal).
Game #2 I killed his Hierarch and wasted his Topical Island. As it turned out he kept a one lander...
Game #3 I had a T1 Bob into several Decays so I could kill all the Infecters he played. Bob put me ahead from there.

Round #5: Jund (2-1)

Game #1 I had large KotR to grind the game out. Also Chalice on 1 did some little things like countering a cascaded DS.
Game #2 I was overrun by big Goyfs.
Game #3 my opponents mana base was soft and he could not handle my Wasteland/Loam hand. I finally won woth big KotRs.

Round #6: UR Delver (2-0)

We all know that this isn't the best MU. However, game #1 I resolved a Chalice on 1 and apparently got him totally on 1 cmc spells. After wasting one of his two Volcanic Islands the game was over.
Game #2 was also won by a Chalice on 1. He did not find his Smashes and Bedlam Reveller gave him three 1 cmc spells while being smaller than my KotR.


Round #7: Elves [Julian Knab] (2-0)

I honestly don't know how I won game #1. He was on the play, I mulled to five keeping a desperate one lander with Mox, PFire, Grove, Lili and KotR and scryed a land on top. All my draws were perfectly sequenced according to this starting hand so that I was able to fight through 2 active DS and take over the game.
Game #2 I had the nuts. T1 Ethersworn Canonist into T2 PFire with Grove into T3 Chalice on 1.

Round #8: Stoneblade (1-1-1)

Game #1 I lost to a TNN. He had 3 Noble Hierarchs not giving my Lili a chance to do something here. Did not find Deluge.
Game #2 I was able to take the game over with Wastelands.
Game #3 was a grindfest and at some point both of us had our hand full of removal spells but the battlefield was empty. Rec Sage killed his Batterskull which was very relevant.

Round #9: Eldrazi (1-2)

I did not play smooth in Game #1. As I did not know on what deck my opponent was I desiced to not play Mox on T1 but rater fake a BUG deck by just playing Catacombs. Apparently he knew that I was on Loam as he played his Chalice on 0 destroying my plan to play Lili on T2. He countered the Deluge I set up to get rid of 2 TNS and an Endless One. However, I should have known that he had Warping Wail as both TNS did not take my Deluge. With that in mind I shouldn't have wasted his Eye of Ugin but rather his mana producing land as this would have risen my chances that he does not have 2 mana to cast Warping Wail.
Game #2 I won through a very grindy fight.
Game #3 I kept a slow hand (Library, Zenith, Loam,Rec Sage) without Removal or Wastelands. As it turned out he had a super fast start. His board was weak but I was too slow to find answers. Should have mulliganed this hand for sure.

Round #10: 4c Czech Pile [Thomas Mar] (2-0)

Game #1 won a T1 Bob. He did not find an answer to Bob (concerning that he pondered really hard I think I was pretty lucky here) and soon a Chalice on 1 closed the game.
Game #2 I was on the Wasteland/Loam plan. With finally 6 Dual Lands in his graveyard the game was over.

Quarter Finals: BR Reanimator (1-2)

My opponent had a better placement so he was on the play and started with a T1 Griselbrand as he knew I was on Loam and had no disruption.
Game #2 I hade double Leyling into Ooze into Chalice on 1.
Game #3 I did not find a Leyline. My mulligan to 5 has at least a Chalice on 1. Well, he put a T1 Gravetitan on the battlefield...


I hope you found this useful. I felt very comfortable with the deck. However, I was lucky to never face any Sneak and Show decks in 10 rounds :D


The blue version of this deck seems interesting. However, I don't like blue.deck :D


Congrats on your finish! I agree that Deathrite is sort of a trap, and that Garruk is kind of underwhelming. I like having a threat that can be cast off of basic Forest against Blood Moon decks and is resistant to removal, but sometimes I want more than Garruk offers.

The only question I have is whether you missed a third Thoughtseize from the board. I really like Plow against Eldrazi and D&T, but that's about it. I'm currently on the full 4 Thoughtseizes, but will definitely be testing at least one Brutality when I get around to playing Loam again.

[Bobmans]

Hi everyone,

I'm the confused looking guy who top8'ed the MKM series with (classic) Aggro Loam this weekend. There is also one feature match on twitch (https://www.twitch.tv/videos/139161769) covering my only loss in the swiss rounds (ironically against Eldrazi).

The blue version of this deck seems interesting. However, I don't like blue.deck :D

Congratz!! And lolz..

[Digitend89]

Congrats Stuhl

And heres an interesting list from the firefly monthly legacy. Maybe this is what 4c loam look like if we wanted blue and no red for Pfire.
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=15395&d=293679&f=LE

[Stuhl]

Congratulations on your result! How did you end up liking the Collective Brutality? I know that it's something that was previously discussed in this but it never really caught on.

Thanks! Well, whenever I drew it I liked it. I didn't see it very often this weekend but my win against Burn in the 2nd game was definitely on the back of this card. Against Elves it is super strong, killing their dork and taking Decay/NO/Glimpse/Zenith. Against Delver/Deathrite Shaman decks I usually use it as a simple removal spell. You have to be careful concerning Daze. If you use it with discard modes and it gets dazed you are probably behind concerning ressources. Getting it forced is rather "ok" as both players lost effectively 2 cards.



Congrats on your finish! I agree that Deathrite is sort of a trap, and that Garruk is kind of underwhelming. I like having a threat that can be cast off of basic Forest against Blood Moon decks and is resistant to removal, but sometimes I want more than Garruk offers.

The only question I have is whether you missed a third Thoughtseize from the board. I really like Plow against Eldrazi and D&T, but that's about it. I'm currently on the full 4 Thoughtseizes, but will definitely be testing at least one Brutality when I get around to playing Loam again.

Thanks! The irony is that Chandra can be played against Blood Moon in any case, even without basics. I think Chandra is the better Planeswalker on her own. She generates value and is a decent clock which has to be handled. However, Garruk is a long time staple in this deck so there must be a reason (that's what I thought when I decided to play him this weekend :D). I think I will try Chandra in his spot in my next MTGO leagues.

I did not miss a 3rd Thoughtseize. However, I did not play against real combo decks (ANT, Belcher, ...) and just saw one Thoughtseize in my 11 matches against Eldrazi (taking Reality Smasher). I did not board them against Elves. So in the end I boarded my Thoughtseize only against Eldrazi and BR Reanimator (unfortunately I was stomped with T1 fatties here).

In my eyes Collective Brutality somehow functions as mediocre 3rd Thoughtseize if you want so.



And heres an interesting list from the firefly monthly legacy. Maybe this is what 4c loam look like if we wanted blue and no red for Pfire.
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=15395&d=293679&f=LE

By all means, this is not Aggro Loam anymore. No Chalice, no Mox, no KotR. I would rather call ist BUG Depths or something.

@schniggaz: I don't really understand the turn to blue cards. Is there any valid eason to do so? Also, playing blue without Brainstorm and FoW seems weird. Can FLusterstorm be played above Chalice on 1 such that only the main spell gets countered and the storm triggers resolve? If no, then this seems also weird.

I think the meta game shift does not necessarily put us in the need of changing things fundamentally. As people pointed out in this thread some slots may change but the core is still a strong deck with a lot of play against the most decks.

[Pilhas]

Thanks! The irony is that Chandra can be played against Blood Moon in any case, even without basics. I think Chandra is the better Planeswalker on her own. She generates value and is a decent clock which has to be handled. However, Garruk is a long time staple in this deck so there must be a reason (that's what I thought when I decided to play him this weekend :D). I think I will try Chandra in his spot in my next MTGO leagues.

I did not miss a 3rd Thoughtseize. However, I did not play against real combo decks (ANT, Belcher, ...) and just saw one Thoughtseize in my 11 matches against Eldrazi (taking Reality Smasher). I did not board them against Elves. So in the end I boarded my Thoughtseize only against Eldrazi and BR Reanimator (unfortunately I was stomped with T1 fatties here).

In my eyes Collective Brutality somehow functions as mediocre 3rd Thoughtseize if you want so.
[/QUOTE]

Gratz Stuhl.

One of the reasons why Garruk was the one that entered the list was that Chandra was still not around and Shardless was in the meta.
I am currently trying a no planeswalker approach but deciding between the two should resume in, are you expecting more creatures(need of blockers) or just grind...

I usually don't bring walkes against delver(except BUG where I bring Garruk). If it was Chandra I probably wouldn't bring it against BUG Delver.
Against blade either one is good. Both would be better but they are already favourable matchups.

[BeTeP]

Hi schniggaz! I like you loam with blue. Seems fun.
Can you tell me why you dont plaing in it some Green Sun's Zenith and a single Edric, Spymaster of Trest for card advantage? It seems that without dark confidant it is hard to ahive that goal.
And maybe a deck can use Intuition for p.fire or loam?

[Treacleson]

Thanks! Well, whenever I drew it I liked it. I didn't see it very often this weekend but my win against Burn in the 2nd game was definitely on the back of this card. Against Elves it is super strong, killing their dork and taking Decay/NO/Glimpse/Zenith. Against Delver/Deathrite Shaman decks I usually use it as a simple removal spell. You have to be careful concerning Daze. If you use it with discard modes and it gets dazed you are probably behind concerning ressources. Getting it forced is rather "ok" as both players lost effectively 2 cards.

Thanks! The irony is that Chandra can be played against Blood Moon in any case, even without basics. I think Chandra is the better Planeswalker on her own. She generates value and is a decent clock which has to be handled. However, Garruk is a long time staple in this deck so there must be a reason (that's what I thought when I decided to play him this weekend :D). I think I will try Chandra in his spot in my next MTGO leagues.

I did not miss a 3rd Thoughtseize. However, I did not play against real combo decks (ANT, Belcher, ...) and just saw one Thoughtseize in my 11 matches against Eldrazi (taking Reality Smasher). I did not board them against Elves. So in the end I boarded my Thoughtseize only against Eldrazi and BR Reanimator (unfortunately I was stomped with T1 fatties here).

In my eyes Collective Brutality somehow functions as mediocre 3rd Thoughtseize if you want so.

By all means, this is not Aggro Loam anymore. No Chalice, no Mox, no KotR. I would rather call ist BUG Depths or something.

@schniggaz: I don't really understand the turn to blue cards. Is there any valid eason to do so? Also, playing blue without Brainstorm and FoW seems weird. Can FLusterstorm be played above Chalice on 1 such that only the main spell gets countered and the storm triggers resolve? If no, then this seems also weird.


Congratulations on the top 8 Stuhl, I was wondering, Is there a reason you opted for two golgari charm over two toxic deluge? I'm playing 2 deluge in my list and was wondering if the other modes on charm are worth the trade off of being able to kill larger goons like gurmag angler.

This is my list I'd love if you'd take a look and give me some suggestions. Congrats again and may you reveal lands to bob and draw threats.

http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/tour-guides-4colour-loam/

[Pilhas]

Congratulations on the top 8 Stuhl, I was wondering, Is there a reason you opted for two golgari charm over two toxic deluge? I'm playing 2 deluge in my list and was wondering if the other modes on charm are worth the trade off of being able to kill larger goons like gurmag angler.

This is my list I'd love if you'd take a look and give me some suggestions. Congrats again and may you reveal lands to bob and draw threats.

http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/tour-guides-4colour-loam/

The thing about charm is that is good against more decks where you need it than deluge.

Charm is very good against storm to protect dorks/kill goblins(decay on the downswing but we still have to protect teeg from push)
Show/Omnitell to kill the pesky enchantments, especially good on the Show->Canonist->destroy omni
Good against go of turns from elves
Better(IMO) against grixis due to being 2 cmc and instant speed

[Treacleson]

The thing about charm is that is good against more decks where you need it than deluge.

Charm is very good against storm to protect dorks/kill goblins(decay on the downswing but we still have to protect teeg from push)
Show/Omnitell to kill the pesky enchantments, especially good on the Show->Canonist->destroy omni
Good against go of turns from elves
Better(IMO) against grixis due to being 2 cmc and instant speed

Well I'm convinced. Most of those cases will matter more than once, and Kotr can tango with gurmag angler anyway. Thanks for the advice!

[hovercraft]

Well I'm convinced. Most of those cases will matter more than once, and Kotr can tango with gurmag angler anyway. Thanks for the advice!

I play 1 of each in SB, charm is definitely a versatile card. The regenerate mode rarely comes up, but if it does it can be a huge momentum swing. Blocking a fatty with a big knight but saving it from dying as the main example.

[Stuhl]

Congratulations on the top 8 Stuhl, I was wondering, Is there a reason you opted for two golgari charm over two toxic deluge? I'm playing 2 deluge in my list and was wondering if the other modes on charm are worth the trade off of being able to kill larger goons like gurmag angler.

This is my list I'd love if you'd take a look and give me some suggestions. Congrats again and may you reveal lands to bob and draw threats.

http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/tour-guides-4colour-loam/

Well, as we do not have real lifegain and play Bobs I somehow never wanted two Deluges. Of course, your chances to hit one are bigger but if you draw both you often can only play one. Besides that Golgari Charm hits our True Name Nemesis. In most scenarios Charm and Deluge have the same effect. Sometimes it is annoying that Charm does not hit a Shaman. But I think it is definitely not wrong to play a 1/1 Charm/Deluge split.

The regenerate mode of Charm is very fringe. I think I used it maybe 1 or 2 times since I play this deck. But it may be a bigger thing if people start to play other UW control decks featuring maybe Supreme Verdict (don't know if this will happen, but who knows).

The destroy enchantment mode is essential and one reason to play this card over 2nd Deluge in my eyes. I feel like there is a rise in Aluren/Food Chain decks and most importantly Sneak and Show. Destroying an enchantment in the right moment can safe you here. And don't forget Blood Moon which for sure will come down in Sneak and Show matches.

If you face an Angler or large Goyf you will most likely prefer Swords/Decay or Lili to get rid of them. In my experience big threats are rather solo on the battlefield. So, if you want to 2 for 1 or 3 for 1 with Deluge one usually prefers to wait for the opponent to slam more threats. I however wouldn't like to do that with a 5/6 Goyf beating me every round.


Well, I'm not sure if Grim Flayer can really replace Sylvan Library. He can be fetched by Zenith, that's nice. But Library gives you so much more advantages in my eyes. Despite that Library doesn't die to Fatal Push and Bolts. With my first activation of Library I often draw all cards which puts me far ahead in terms of ressources.

I don't really see the advantage of Faerie Macabre over Leyline of the Void. Ok, if you draw Faerie it's better, however, a good reanimator player can play around a singleton exile effect. Also, your Dredge and Lands MU will be far more difficult. I'd rather play Surgical Extraction here.

I personally don't like Thalia. She is only good against Storm decks. Ethersworn Canonist as more applications than Thalia in the SB. Besides that we play very much non-creature spells ourself often making Thalia awkward.

I'd rather play a Choke if I wanted more hate against blueish decks (which honestly isn't necessary). Probably a Planeswalker or 3rd Sword/Thoughtseize fits better in that spot.

But overall your list seems fine (I mean, if you make -1 Flayer, +1 Library you end up with my list from above :D).

[Treacleson]

Well, as we do not have real lifegain and play Bobs I somehow never wanted two Deluges. Of course, your chances to hit one are bigger but if you draw both you often can only play one. Besides that Golgari Charm hits our True Name Nemesis. In most scenarios Charm and Deluge have the same effect. Sometimes it is annoying that Charm does not hit a Shaman. But I think it is definitely not wrong ti play a 1/1 Charm/Deluge split.

The regenerate mode of Charm is very fringe. I think I used it maybe 1 or 2 times since I play this deck. But it may be a bigger thing if people start to play other UW control decks featuring maybe Supreme Verdict (don't know if this will happen, but who knows).

The destroy enchantment mode is essential and one reason to play this card over 2nd Deluge in my eyes. I feel like there is a rise in Aluren/Food Chain decks and most importantly Sneak and Show. Destroying an enchantment in the right moment can safe you here. And don't forget Blood Moon which for sure will come down in Sneak and Show matches.

If you face an Angler or large Goyf you will most likely prefer Swords/Decay or Lili to get rid of them. In my experience big threats are rather solo on the battlefield. So, if you want to 2 for 1 or 3 for 1 with Deluge one usually prefers to wait for the opponent to slam more threats. I however wouldn't like to do that with a 5/6 Goyf beating me every round.


Well, I'm not sure if Grim Flayer can really replace Sylvan Library. He can be fetched by Zenith, that's nice. But Library gives you so much more advantages in my eyes. Despite that people Library doesn't die to Fatal Push and Bolts. With my first activation of Library I often draw all cards but me far ahead in terms of ressources.

I don't really see the advantage of Fearie Macabre over Leyline of the Void. Ok, if you draw Fearie it's better, however, a good reanimator player can play around a singleton exile effect. Also, your Dredge MU will be far more difficult.

I personally don't like Thalia. She is only good against Storm decks. Etherswon Canonist as more applications than Thalia in the SB. Besides that we play very much non-creature spells ourself often making Thalia awkward.

I'd rather play a Choke if I wanted more hate against blueish decks (which honestly isn't necessary). Probably a Planeswalker or 3rd Sword/Thoughtseize fits better in that spot.

But overall your list seems fine (I mean, if you make -1 Flayer, +1 Library you end up with my list from above :D).


Thats totally reasonable, I think I will swap the deulge for a charm, If just for a little more sped on my removal. May as well net deck the top 8 deck :P

I find that the synergy between flayer, bob, loam, knight and pfire is worth it, but you are right that it is less pure advantage than library. I'll probably go back to the library as is but I definitely think people should try playing one as it feeds itself and can really enable the deck while filtering your draws.

I see your point with thalia for sure though, I'm looking at garruk though and feeling a little underwhelmed, my kingdom for 4 loyalty on garruk.

Is the general consensus that chandra should be the planeswalker that goes in nowadays? What do you think of tireless tracker in that spot? Thanks for taking the time to help.

edit: I quite like faerie macabre as I find most reanimator players are more conditioned to leyline/surgical and rip and almost always play my faerie macabre hands as though I'm holding surgical, plus macabre has the upside of blanking their exhume even if they have two creatures, and it is uncounterable. I'm willing to punt dredge as it is not an extremely popular archetype where I play, plus the only real threat that frightens me post board is the dread return plays they have, where faerie macabre is astounding. for the rest we have removal and creatures to beat up on two twos and maze for grave trolls. Not trying to be argumentative just stating my reasoning,

[Stuhl]

Tireless Tracker could be a thing. However, I am a fan of non-creature threats and non-decayable threats. That said, Planeswalkers. I don't if Garruk, Chandra or Ajani is better. Well, probably Jace the Mindsculptor is better than all, but that is another story :D
I really think the Planeswalker slot is a personal style choice. I think MatsOle i.e. started to play Ajani to have +1 on the mana denial plan.

I could see the Grim Flayer in the Deathrite Shaman spot. In my list this spot is currently occupied by Ghost Quarter (inspired by MatsOle :D).

[Treacleson]

So what you are saying is splash underground sea for post board Jace :P

I see your point Ajani is interesting, but I don't have one right now so I'll probably stick to garruk. I've always had trouble identifying the flex slots in the deck, how important do you think the GQ is?

I'm very tempted to just swap Ghost quarter for Flayer, perhaps drop a golgari charm or a hatebear, maybe even the garruk slot since garruk shines against BUG style decks and land destruction seems the most reliable way to hate them out of a game

edit: Made some changes

http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/tour-guides-4colour-loam/

[Stuhl]

So what you are saying is splash underground sea for post board Jace :P


Well, no, it was more a reference to Patrick Chapin's super hit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnYhG_ekoH8 :laugh:

[Treacleson]

Man, a pay raise, true love, and a top 8 title. Good thing Jace can't be abrupt decayed. Maybe I should take a Jace to ask my boss for a raise.

"That card cost how much?"

"75 USD"

"I only just now realized how little I actually wanted to know."

[Eldrazi Grandfather]

Sthul I play your list, except for the sideboard:

1 reclamation sage
1 garruk relentless
1 collective brutality
1 toxic deluge
3 leyline of the void
2 swords to plowshares
2 containment priest
1 thalia, guardian of thraben
1 ethersworn canonist
1 chandra tod
1 golgari charm

Do you think the two thoughtseizes are essential in this meta? Is Sneak n Show a winnable mu?

[CptHaddock]

Do you think the two thoughtseizes are essential in this meta? Is Sneak n Show a winnable mu?

I'd say so, maybe even 3 if you aren't playing Containment Priest. I think the top 3 right now are elves, delver and storm with sneak being a close 4th and thoughtseize is great in 3 of those matchups. The matchup is certainly winnable but it's very difficult....

[Pilhas]

I'd say so, maybe even 3 if you aren't playing Containment Priest. I think the top 3 right now are elves, delver and storm with sneak being a close 4th and thoughtseize is great in 3 of those matchups. The matchup is certainly winnable but it's very difficult....

What do you take out against elves to make room for the thoughseize if you don't mind me asking? I usually do not bring them.

[Treacleson]

I personally cut the slower cards, things like library, loams and karakas which I feel is usually pretty dead against them. The priority I feel is establishing a threat and just keeping them suppressed with as much disruption as possible as opposed to just trying to really grind it out. Pull the rug out from under their feet and then throw punishing fires at anything that moves on their side of the board.

If we can get the table hellbent then it makes it extremely unlikely that they can even try to grind. Even if they do establish a board state like wirewood symbiote+elvish visionary, it becomes very vulnerable to any top deck removal at sorcery speed and hand disruption from lili or just a good old fashioned clunky late game thoughtseize after you get them to block+bounce.

[CptHaddock]

What do you take out against elves to make room for the thoughseize if you don't mind me asking? I usually do not bring them.

-1 Centaur Vinecrasher
-1 Deathrite Shaman
-1 Scavenging Ooze
-2 Liliana of the Veil
-2 Life from the Loam
-1 Sylvan Library
-1 Maelstrom Pulse
-1 Maze of Ith

+2 Toxic Deluge
+2 Thoughtseize
+2 Swords to Plowshares
+1 Ethersworn Canonist
+1 Containment Priest
+1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
+1 Golgari Charm

Now that I look at it I might just be overboarding. Vinecrasher, shaman, ooze and maze should be pretty self explanatory. I don't like Liliana in this matchup as at best she gets rid of maybe 1 of their many creatures, so it might look odd that i'm bringing in Chandra but I think that having a removal spell alongside a card draw is worth the 4 cmc. Loam and Library are just too slow and i'm okay with losing a slightly clunkier sorcery speed removal spell (Pulse) in favor of board wipes.

I have yet to change my list post top ban.

[Pilhas]

-1 Centaur Vinecrasher
-1 Deathrite Shaman
-1 Scavenging Ooze
-2 Liliana of the Veil
-2 Life from the Loam
-1 Sylvan Library
-1 Maelstrom Pulse
-1 Maze of Ith

+2 Toxic Deluge
+2 Thoughtseize
+2 Swords to Plowshares
+1 Ethersworn Canonist
+1 Containment Priest
+1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
+1 Golgari Charm

Now that I look at it I might just be overboarding. Vinecrasher, shaman, ooze and maze should be pretty self explanatory. I don't like Liliana in this matchup as at best she gets rid of maybe 1 of their many creatures, so it might look odd that i'm bringing in Chandra but I think that having a removal spell alongside a card draw is worth the 4 cmc. Loam and Library are just too slow and i'm okay with losing a slightly clunkier sorcery speed removal spell (Pulse) in favor of board wipes.

I have yet to change my list post top ban.

I actually like ooze quite a bit in the matchup. usually the matchup goes into lockdown if we survive and then we need something to out grind where ooze is stellar.
@Treacleson I advise at not taking karakas since we are low on white mana and landing those canonists/swords are very important.

[CptHaddock]

I actually like ooze quite a bit in the matchup. usually the matchup goes into lockdown if we survive and then we need something to out grind where ooze is stellar.
@Treacleson I advise at not taking karakas since we are low on white mana and landing those canonists/swords are very important.

That sounds reasonable. For me it just comes down the surviving the initial onslaught (the first couple of turns) and if I make it past there I feel very favored to win the matchup and I felt like ooze just didn't help me do that. I'm probably very spoiled in that I play against the same 2 elves players all the time so I tend to know how they play.

I wouldn't take out Karakas in the matchup either. The white is important and every once in a while you get to protect your teeg from a removal spell or even rarer bounce a Leovold or Ruric Thar.

[Treacleson]

Hmm fair enough. I haven't been punished for it yet, but I suppose it wouldn't hurt to have the extra white source thank you for the advice.

Has Centaur vine crasher been good? I saw that card months ago and it took all my friends to talk me out of trying it, that said there was a lot of miracles around at the time. It seems rather spicy in a less STP/terminus heavy meta.

[Nocley]

Dropped at 5-2 because I had some medical issues and decided to go home. Deck was awesome. It would need someone who has more time than me to test the deck. A friend of mine played it as well and we had a lot of fun. Like Dazing your opponents FOW on your Chalice, hitting a Primeval Titan with Telemin Performance or stealing a Blightsteel Colossus with Dack Fayden. It was great :D

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Vendilion Clique

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Life from the Loam
1 Sylvan Library

4 Punishing Fire
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Blessed Alliance
1 Councils Judgement

4 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice of the Void

2 Flusterstorm
1 Daze

4 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
1 Arid Mesa
2 Tundra
2 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island
1 Savannah
1 Plateau
1 Plains
1 Irrigated Farmland
1 Lonely Sandbar
1 Maze of Ith
1 Karakas
4 Wasteland
3 Grove of the Burnwillows

SB
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Meddling Mage
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Containment Priest
2 Wear//Tear
1 Telemin Performance
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Flusterstorm
1 Firespout
1 Dack Fayden

How was Goyf is one of the biggest questions I have here. I know you're not in black so you can't run Bob, but I don't see the meta shaping up to be that great for Goyfs right now either (outside of chumping things that p fire doesn't kill well).


Tireless Tracker could be a thing. However, I am a fan of non-creature threats and non-decayable threats. That said, Planeswalkers. I don't if Garruk, Chandra or Ajani is better. Well, probably Jace the Mindsculptor is better than all, but that is another story :D
I really think the Planeswalker slot is a personal style choice. I think MatsOle i.e. started to play Ajani to have +1 on the mana denial plan.

I could see the Grim Flayer in the Deathrite Shaman spot. In my list this spot is currently occupied by Ghost Quarter (inspired by MatsOle :D).

Tracker is something I really like, but I just can't stand having so many 3 drops when combined with kotr and lily. I know I have been brewing around a bit with BUG loam variants, and for a while I adopted Ancient Tomb into those lists. Could we get to a point where our mana base just isn't stretched, and we can reliably wrap that into a T1 tracker with mox?

DRS as a singleton has over performed for me. My testing the past few days has been insane and I never want to trim that card again.

[CptHaddock]

Hmm fair enough. I haven't been punished for it yet, but I suppose it wouldn't hurt to have the extra white source thank you for the advice.

Has Centaur vine crasher been good? I saw that card months ago and it took all my friends to talk me out of trying it, that said there was a lot of miracles around at the time. It seems rather spicy in a less STP/terminus heavy meta.

Can't really say, I don't think I have gotten enough games. I do like him so far, he allows you to trample over pyroman tokens, tnn, griffins and other random creatures. In general i'll board him out vs any deck that plays swords to plowshares, i've yet to make changes postban and people playing all the fun decks they couldn't play while miracles was a thing makes it hard to test. :tongue:

[Treacleson]

Tracker is something I really like, but I just can't stand having so many 3 drops when combined with kotr and lily. I know I have been brewing around a bit with BUG loam variants, and for a while I adopted Ancient Tomb into those lists. Could we get to a point where our mana base just isn't stretched, and we can reliably wrap that into a T1 tracker with mox?

DRS as a singleton has over performed for me. My testing the past few days has been insane and I never want to trim that card again.

I'd be interested in a spicy ancient tomb mox diamond brew. The issue there is our mana costs are so greedy we're doing things like curving teeg into lili and then punishing fire I feel like if the deck wanted to play tombs and the like it would probably require cutting atleast one colour and turning the shell into something a little more stompy.

This sorta removes the play from the deck, theres potential in some kind of r/g tracker, punishing fire, chalice, thorn of amethyst style strategy.

edit: and I don't think I've seen city of traitors in a deck with loam in it so that could be nifty.


Edit: @CptHaddock

I totally get it I'm kinda feelin the same about grim flayer, some games it eats removal, other games its a 4/4 trampling draw three on combat damage.

But atleast the board wipes cost 3 mana now.

[Nocley]

I'd be interested in a spicy ancient tomb mox diamond brew. The issue there is our mana costs are so greedy we're doing things like curving teeg into lili and then punishing fire I feel like if the deck wanted to play tombs and the like it would probably require cutting atleast one colour and turning the shell into something a little more stompy.

This sorta removes the play from the deck, theres potential in some kind of r/g tracker, punishing fire, chalice, thorn of amethyst style strategy.

edit: and I don't think I've seen city of traitors in a deck with loam in it so that could be nifty.



If it does work, I think it would have to be in something like the Bant-red list that was also referred to. That has a lot less stress on the mana base (Jace is UU but the mana works out so much nicer with less of a dependency on u than b). Especially because youre basically just GW splashing for UU and RR (which is P Fire's real cost). I'll have to actually test the Bant-red list first to see how much that is worth going towards

[Bobmans]

So today someone had another 5-0 in the league. First of all, it is very nice to see this deck keeps getting some solid results. Lot of 5-0 finishes and top 8's, even at large events like last weekend in Frankfurt.

Ok so, interesting about this list is that it ran 2 different copies of the new bicycle lands. Not sure if Blackmetal666 (https://mtgdecks.net/deck/mtgo_competitive_legacy_constructed_league/legacy/aggro_loam_blakmetal666/683639/) is also on the Source, but i would be happy to hear about the new cycle lands.

[CptHaddock]

How do you guys normally board for the mirror match? I always feel like I have more to bring in than actually take out.

The givens for taking out are probably:
-4 Chalice of the Void
-1 Gaddock Teeg

Is there anything else that you usually take out?


I'm assuming we want to bring in the following:
# Leylines
# Toxic Deluge
# Walkers
# Swords
# Other removal spells

[Stuhl]

How do you guys normally board for the mirror match? I always feel like I have more to bring in than actually take out.

The givens for taking out are probably:
-4 Chalice of the Void
-1 Gaddock Teeg

Is there anything else that you usually take out?


I'm assuming we want to bring in the following:
# Leylines
# Toxic Deluge
# Walkers
# Swords
# Other removal spells

Well, it may sound weird but I usually board out 2 PFires. It is just depressing having PFire while facing Leyline and most of the time you hit just 4 creatures with it, namely Bobs. As we anyway board in 2 Swords and Deluge and stuff I think PFire is the weakest removal we have. Of course, the ability to kill Planeswalkers is great but in my opinion all the SB we bring in are better than PFire.

If I'm sure my opponent does not play the DD combo I also may board out Karakas.

I also bring in Rec Sage and the Golgari Charms. They hit Leyline and you never want to give your opponent a Bob or Library. Charm handles both. Taking a Mox with Rec Sage is also very strong in my opinion. But primarily I board him against Leyline. But not always, maybe it depends on "on the draw" or "on the play".

[Pilhas]

Lately I do not bring Leylines.
What I do is:
-4 Cotv
-1 Teeg
-1 Deluge
+3 swords
+2 charm
+1 rec sage

Sometimes I bring 2 thoughtseize instead of the 2nd charm and cut 1 GSZ , but I am not in love with this.

Note: I am not running planeswalkers, just upped the swords count by 1

[MatsOle]

Congrats @Stuhl on the finish.

I think vindicate might be a tad slow in the post top ban meta, it also doesn't look like aluren and food chain are as big as they used to be so maybe even playing brutality main might be good? Better vs s&t, elves, storm game one then most other options.


Also maze really doesn't do much in the mirror post board, all it does is fog for a turn. As all you care about is knight and if you're winning it could just be another card.

[Nocley]

Congrats @Stuhl on the finish.

I think vindicate might be a tad slow in the post top ban meta, it also doesn't look like aluren and food chain are as big as they used to be so maybe even playing brutality main might be good? Better vs s&t, elves, storm game one then most other options.


Also maze really doesn't do much in the mirror post board, all it does is fog for a turn. As all you care about is knight and if you're winning it could just be another card.

I've always liked Brutality in this deck recently, but I was only trimming it for the 3rd liliana, which I keep going back and forth about. I don't like having 0 vindicates in the 75, I sometimes really want a 1 spell destroy and problem 4 cmc walker. But I think that could be replaced with a Pulse, and that I'm comfortable with as a single one in the 75.

[Bosque]

I saw this list mentioned in an article about MKM Frankfurt, where it made top 8 (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/this-week-in-legacy-mkm-frankfurt-and-the-first-week-without-top). I'd never seen a blue splash like this before.

Creatures (10)
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Vendilion Clique

Planeswalkers (2)
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Spells (10)
2 Flusterstorm
1 Blessed Alliance
1 Daze 1u
2 Life from the Loam
4 Punishing Fire
1 Council's Judgement

Artifacts (10)
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Mox Diamond

Enchantments (1)
1 Sylvan Library

Lands (26)
1 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Irrigated Farmland
1 Karakas
1 Lonely Sandbar
1 Maze of Ith
1 Plains
1 Plateau
1 Savannah
2 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
2 Windswept Heath

Sideboard (15)
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Wear // Tear
1 Flusterstorm
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Containment Priest
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Meddling Mage
1 Dack Fayden
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Firespout
1 Telemin Performance

[Bobmans]

I saw this list mentioned in an article about MKM Frankfurt, where it made top 8 (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/this-week-in-legacy-mkm-frankfurt-and-the-first-week-without-top). I'd never seen a blue splash like this before.




Dropped at 5-2 because I had some medical issues and decided to go home. Deck was awesome. It would need someone who has more time than me to test the deck. A friend of mine played it as well and we had a lot of fun. Like Dazing your opponents FOW on your Chalice, hitting a Primeval Titan with Telemin Performance or stealing a Blightsteel Colossus with Dack Fayden. It was great :D




Yes, we know. Very interesting list. See Kronbergers post on the list.

[Bosque]

Yes, we know. Very interesting list. See Kronbergers post on the list.

Oops, sorry I didn't go back far enough!

[Treacleson]

I haven't read the list , but it's kind of a shame that all development efforts are being focused on the U version of the deck. I hope the stock build doesn't shift to another u/x goodstuff shell featuring jace and deathrite, theres a little to much of that in legacy already.

So long moderately budget builds of the deck.

[apocolyps6]

Wat. Niklas posts a loam-ish brew like a day ago and suddenly the archetype is dead? I think you are overreacting just a tad.

[Nocley]

I was jamming the blue version for a bit these past few days, it's cute, and extremely fun to play, but I'm not convinced it is any better than the traditional black version. Liliana is still absurdly good, and the blue version has less ways to deal with a JTMS that's resolved. But wow, with blue it feels like playing a legacy cube deck in a constructed tournament. Overall, having Jace in the 4 slot makes hands much more awkward than before - there's a lot of hands that are way too slow.

[Jo4source]

Hi everyone,

I'm the confused looking guy who top8'ed the MKM series with (classic) Aggro Loam this weekend. There is also one feature match on twitch (https://www.twitch.tv/videos/139161769) covering my only loss in the swiss rounds (ironically against Eldrazi).

I will share my thoughts about the 75 and give you a tournament report. I did not write down any notes so it will be rather short.


Main Deck:

4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Life from the Loam
2 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Sylvan Library
3 Punishing Fire
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
4 Wasteland
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 badlands
1 Taiga
1 Savannah
1 Barren Moor
1 Tranquil Thicket
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Maze of Ith
1 Karakas
1 Cabal Pit
1 Forest

Sideboard:

3 Leyline of the Void
1 Garruk Relentless / Garruk, the Veil-Cursed
2 Golgari Charm
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Containment Priest
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Thoughtseize
1 Collective Brutality

I think I played a pretty stock list (mixture of several MTGO results) this weekend. I will just point out the MD flex slots and the SB:

Main:

No Deathrite Shaman: A lot of people play DS as a one off. In the opening hand he is a sweet card. Drawing him during the game with a Chalice on 1 is weird. Zenith for 1 on T1 (via Mox) is in my eyes either a "I don't have anything better to do" or "my opponent plays Reanimator" action. Often this play is bad anyways when you figure out your opponent is on Storm and you just wasted your Zenith to get Gaddock Teeg.
Long story short: I felt like DS is not that impactful enough and decided to use this slot for Ghost Quarter.

Ghost Quarter: I felt like there will be a lot 4c good stuff lists consisting of a Leovold BUG core. As these decks do not play any basic lands Ghost Quarter essentially functions as Wasteland #5. Mana denial is really strong against all these greedy 4c lists.

Toxic Deluge: People have different tastes when it comes to the Deluge/Pulse/Vindicate slot. Inspired by MatsOle I started to test Vindicate. I never really liked it. In this new meta Elves, Stoneblade, Delver, DnT and other creature based decks seem to have a comeback and whenever I drew Vindicate I wished it was a Deluge.


Sideboard:


Planeswalker: I only played one Planeswalker in my SB. I definitely would like to play Chandra, Torch of Defiance again but right now it seems like more Planeswalker in the SB make our better MUs better (i.e. 4c greed lists, Delver, grindy MUs in general) but do not help in worse MUs (i.e. fast combo, Burn, UR Delver). However, I'm not sure if Garruk is the right choice as a Planeswalker (never really saw him this tournament anyways). I'm sure this is also a matter of taste.

Collective Brutality: Burn/UR Delver and fast combo decks are not a good MU for Aggro Loam. We also struggle with Deathrite Shaman. In my eyes Collective Brutality is a flexible card which can be used as a simple removal spell to handle a problematic creature (DS/Delver/Bob/...), taking a spell (combo piece/burn spell/removal/...) or simply gain some life against burn decks. The beaty is that all these possibilities can be combined by just discarding land cards (or recursion cards like Loam/PFire) to maybe grow our KotR or fill the grave for Cabal Pit. Moreover you can play this as a discard spell over Chalice on 1.

Reclamation Sage: With the rise of DnT, Stoneblade and Sneak and Show (possibly also Aluren and Food Chain) decks I think we definitely want this card.

Thoughtseize: In the fear of combo decks I decided to play 2 Thoughtseize as well. Against real combo we also want a T1 disruption which can handle everything. Especially in case of a no-Mox hand a T1 play is very important.

Containment Priest: I just wanted to have some more hate against Sneak and Show decks.


I think the rest of the SB is pretty stock as well.

Tournament report:

Round #1: Mirror (2-1)

As it is the nature of Aggro Loam mirrors it was a grindfest. I won the 1st game with fast KotR.
Game #2 I started with Leyline but my opponent was able to stick his Bob early and take over the game.
Game #3 I again had a Leyline. After some grinding we both were in top deck mode. Besides my Leyline I had the better draws here so I was able to take over the game.


Round #2: Burn (2-0)

I think my opponent was pretty new to the format. He also seemed nervous. I won game #1 with a big KotR and Lili (for some reason he did not kill her, so he had to discard burn spells).
Game#2 he started with Goblin Guide. I played Brutality with all modes on T1 (living the dream, discarding two lands) followed by a 4/4 KotR T2.

Round #3: Elves (2-0)

Game #1 won Chalice on 1 and a timely Deluge.
Game #2 my opponent started with Leyline but the game was ruled by Gaddock Teeg, Lili and Ethersorn Canonist making it more or less impossible for my opponent to do anything. Yet, my clock was pretty slow (2/2 KotR) and I had to give him a lot of draws. In the end Lili ulti closed out the game.

Round #4: Infect (2-1)

Game #1 I was killed by a T3 Blighted Agent in berserk mode (did not find a removal).
Game #2 I killed his Hierarch and wasted his Topical Island. As it turned out he kept a one lander...
Game #3 I had a T1 Bob into several Decays so I could kill all the Infecters he played. Bob put me ahead from there.

Round #5: Jund (2-1)

Game #1 I had large KotR to grind the game out. Also Chalice on 1 did some little things like countering a cascaded DS.
Game #2 I was overrun by big Goyfs.
Game #3 my opponents mana base was soft and he could not handle my Wasteland/Loam hand. I finally won woth big KotRs.

Round #6: UR Delver (2-0)

We all know that this isn't the best MU. However, game #1 I resolved a Chalice on 1 and apparently got him totally on 1 cmc spells. After wasting one of his two Volcanic Islands the game was over.
Game #2 was also won by a Chalice on 1. He did not find his Smashes and Bedlam Reveller gave him three 1 cmc spells while being smaller than my KotR.


Round #7: Elves [Julian Knab] (2-0)

I honestly don't know how I won game #1. He was on the play, I mulled to five keeping a desperate one lander with Mox, PFire, Grove, Lili and KotR and scryed a land on top. All my draws were perfectly sequenced according to this starting hand so that I was able to fight through 2 active DS and take over the game.
Game #2 I had the nuts. T1 Ethersworn Canonist into T2 PFire with Grove into T3 Chalice on 1.

Round #8: Stoneblade (1-1-1)

Game #1 I lost to a TNN. He had 3 Noble Hierarchs not giving my Lili a chance to do something here. Did not find Deluge.
Game #2 I was able to take the game over with Wastelands.
Game #3 was a grindfest and at some point both of us had our hand full of removal spells but the battlefield was empty. Rec Sage killed his Batterskull which was very relevant.

Round #9: Eldrazi (1-2)

I did not play smooth in Game #1. As I did not know on what deck my opponent was I desiced to not play Mox on T1 but rater fake a BUG deck by just playing Catacombs. Apparently he knew that I was on Loam as he played his Chalice on 0 destroying my plan to play Lili on T2. He countered the Deluge I set up to get rid of 2 TNS and an Endless One. However, I should have known that he had Warping Wail as both TNS did not take my Deluge. With that in mind I shouldn't have wasted his Eye of Ugin but rather his mana producing land as this would have risen my chances that he does not have 2 mana to cast Warping Wail.
Game #2 I won through a very grindy fight.
Game #3 I kept a slow hand (Library, Zenith, Loam,Rec Sage) without Removal or Wastelands. As it turned out he had a super fast start. His board was weak but I was too slow to find answers. Should have mulliganed this hand for sure.

Round #10: 4c Czech Pile [Thomas Mar] (2-0)

Game #1 won a T1 Bob. He did not find an answer to Bob (concerning that he pondered really hard I think I was pretty lucky here) and soon a Chalice on 1 closed the game.
Game #2 I was on the Wasteland/Loam plan. With finally 6 Dual Lands in his graveyard the game was over.

Quarter Finals: BR Reanimator (1-2)

My opponent had a better placement so he was on the play and started with a T1 Griselbrand as he knew I was on Loam and had no disruption.
Game #2 I hade double Leyling into Ooze into Chalice on 1.
Game #3 I did not find a Leyline. My mulligan to 5 has at least a Chalice on 1. Well, he put a T1 Gravetitan on the battlefield...


I hope you found this useful. I felt very comfortable with the deck. However, I was lucky to never face any Sneak and Show decks in 10 rounds :D

Congratulations on the top 8

The blue version of this deck seems interesting. However, I don't like blue.deck :D

Hey sthul I like to ask why you did not include a tab or chains in the SB. I know they are expensive pices of card board but I like to know if they would help in any matchup?

[Treacleson]

suddenly the archetype is dead?

Your words not mine. I'm just loathe to see the deck devolve into ubgx good stuff like every midrange deck in the format.

[CptHaddock]

Hey sthul I like to ask why you did not include a tab or chains in the SB. I know they are expensive pices of card board but I like to know if they would help in any matchup?

I haven't tried chains but I like tabernacle, neither is 100% necessary though. Tablenacle is just a nice tool to have in any matchup where your opponent is going to be playing a bunch of creatures creatures. At the same time you are muddying up your already sketchy manabase and it the tax can hurt you in certain games.

[Bobmans]

I haven't tried chains but I like tabernacle, neither is 100% necessary though. Tablenacle is just a nice tool to have in any matchup where your opponent is going to be playing a bunch of creatures creatures. At the same time you are muddying up your already sketchy manabase and it the tax can hurt you in certain games.

I guess this confirms that 1000, - for a situational nice tool is not worth it.

[Stuhl]

Hey sthul I like to ask why you did not include a tab or chains in the SB. I know they are expensive pices of card board but I like to know if they would help in any matchup?

Hi,

well, first there is of course the money thing. I do not own either card although I had the possibility to play them as I have connections. However I decided to practice without those cards as I really like owning stuff and not being depended on other people. I know this is not a really competitive habitude but it's somehow my thing.

That is the reason why I did not practice with Tabernacle online although it is really cheap (like 13 tix). I don't like to practice with cards I may not have available in paper magic for 100%.

The night before the tournament however I played some games with Tabernacle (one always tends to netdeck and do things other good players do -> speaking of MatsOle's lists). Nevertheless, I felt uncomfortable as I had no experience with it and did not board very good enough so I decided to not play it. I think you always should play what you tested and stick to it. In legacy it is not paying out to copy good lists just because they won very often. You need the experience more than any online results.

Besides that I always felt like it isn't necessary in MUs like Delver or BUG. It always felt clunky in my hand and sometimes it is random whether your opponent keeps a land or creature heavy hand.

I think I had 2 online games against Storm were I would have won with KotR into Tabernacle against Empty the Warrens. Actually I think Tabernacle is at its best against Storm and DnT.

DnT feels actually pretty good these days (imo) and I feel like I have lots of tools to beat Storm. Against all other creature decks I think Swords or a clean answer often solves your problems in a better way.

Even against Elves Tabernacle is not an auto win. They often can negate it with Cradle and just go for Natural Order. Elves is a good MU anyways.

Yes it is a very good card. So I think it is totally legit to play Tabernacle as it is totally legit to not play it. It depends on what you want.

Chains on the other side I wouldn't play for sure despite owning it or not. I think the card is not necessary. We have Chalice to lock them from cantripping and other good answers to blue decks. Chains also put no pressure on the board, too.

[Digitend89]

Played a couple of standstill list online and am looking for tips.

Standstill on empty board: break at the end of their turn when their hand is full and they have to discard?
Standstill with a threat on their side: just pop it?
Standstill with a threat on your side: no reason to pop it?

[Jo4source]

@ sthul thanks for your time and reply. I'm a guy that wants to play this style of deck loam, grindy, jund like. Also I kept getting beaten by fish as a delver player. Any ways I own a beat up tabernacle and want to make sure my list is optimal because I do want to win and hone in on the deck. I also don't really find my self as a blue player but I like to win so I gravitated to blue. Do you think this is the best deck that dose not play blue?

Hey if your committed to aggro loam want to start a fb group?

[CptHaddock]

Played a couple of standstill list online and am looking for tips.

Standstill on empty board: break at the end of their turn when their hand is full and they have to discard?
Standstill with a threat on their side: just pop it?
Standstill with a threat on your side: no reason to pop it?

In most cases it's just correct to break it EOT.

[inevitablepnut]

I see people talking about "goodstuff" and I have been milling this around in my head lately. What about a bug list? It would almost be like bug control with a depths finisher. Bug imo just has the best tools at its disposal and the loam engine is just soo powerful. You be able to recure gouf and leovold with volraths stronghold. Also having access to brainstorm and abruptly decay alone is good! Any thoughts?

[Bobmans]

I see people talking about "goodstuff" and I have been milling this around in my head lately. What about a bug list? It would almost be like bug control with a depths finisher. Bug imo just has the best tools at its disposal and the loam engine is just soo powerful. You be able to recure gouf and leovold with volraths stronghold. Also having access to brainstorm and abruptly decay alone is good! Any thoughts?

I suppose you could take a look at UBGx Landstill. Another thing that has some interesting interaction is Intuition and Life from the Loam. But anyway, if we are going to talk U and Brainstorm, then the deck isn't really Aggro Loam anymore; besides, wasn't the Aggro Loam build not more of an ANTI blue deck?

[CptHaddock]

I see people talking about "goodstuff" and I have been milling this around in my head lately. What about a bug list? It would almost be like bug control with a depths finisher. Bug imo just has the best tools at its disposal and the loam engine is just soo powerful. You be able to recure gouf and leovold with volraths stronghold. Also having access to brainstorm and abruptly decay alone is good! Any thoughts?

There is a BUG Loam (http://www.mtgtop8.com/search?player=Lincoln+Baxter+Iii) that someone has played to some success although it's more control based than midrangey.

[Bobmans]

Stuhl did a 5-0 on mtgo, yesterday? List (https://mtgdecks.net/Legacy/stuhl-5-0-decklist-by-stuhl-684963)

Most notable where 2 MD Collective Brutality, have have those performed?

[Pufftrees]

Collective brutality has been a great 1 of main board, I'm going to try two now.

@stuhl thank you very much for sharing your tournament report, and congrats! I know this is a big request, but could you tell us how you sideboarded in those matchups? And if you did anything different on play vs draw. I've been playing this deck exclusively for months and always interested in how people are boarding. Thanks

[Stuhl]

Yes, I can try :) I will do it (and answering the other questions) tomorrow evening. But probably I won't be able to remember most stuff. I a usually not boarding after a strict plan.

[Stuhl]

Played a couple of standstill list online and am looking for tips.

Standstill on empty board: break at the end of their turn when their hand is full and they have to discard?
Standstill with a threat on their side: just pop it?
Standstill with a threat on your side: no reason to pop it?

Well, if they have a threat and you not then you need to ignore it imo. Just play something, ideally EOT, such that they have to discard. But don't wait too long. I mean, people draw 3 with Ancestral Vision and we still can win. It is not easy but it's doable.

If it comes down on an empty board I usually just say go and play lands. If you have a fetch go into the Dryad Arbor beatdown. Keep your Wastelands for their manlands and just see how the game proceeds. Usually they have to play something at some point.

If your opponent lands it with a threat on your side he is not a very good player or has some very weird plans. Just do not play anything. And be careful with Moxes! Sometimes they do not feel like a spell but more like a land :D (speaking of experience)



@ sthul thanks for your time and reply. I'm a guy that wants to play this style of deck loam, grindy, jund like. Also I kept getting beaten by fish as a delver player. Any ways I own a beat up tabernacle and want to make sure my list is optimal because I do want to win and hone in on the deck. I also don't really find my self as a blue player but I like to win so I gravitated to blue. Do you think this is the best deck that dose not play blue?

Hey if your committed to aggro loam want to start a fb group?

Well, I think Death and Texas is probably the best deck that does not play blue. However, 4c Loam is close and in the end it all depends on the Pilot (like always in eternal formats). Chalice of the Void is the reason to play this deck. Also, Bob and Lili are just such strong cards. I enjoy it to draw cards and play Planeswalkers. I always disliked the lack of card advantage in Maverick (I played Maverick before) and DnT. But actually all nonblue decks in Legacy have the same good MU against midrange/Delver strategires. Be it Chalice, Thalia or Mother of Runes.
Also, big creature decks (Nic Fit, Show and Tell) and fast combo (T1/2) are probably the worst MUs of these decks.

I don't think we have enough people for a reasonable fb group? :D




Stuhl did a 5-0 on mtgo, yesterday? List

Most notable where 2 MD Collective Brutality, have have those performed?

Well, I boarded Brutality so often that I decided to play it main. I moved Ghost Quarter to SB again as I think it does not really help in bad MUs but rather in good MUs (Delver/4c Piles). I also removed Toxic Deluge as the TNN hype seems to fade (at least in my experience).
I really like the card. It helps against combo, gets rid of Shamans/Delvers/Goblin Guides, sometimes finishes the game or gives you one more turn (having access to some lifegain feels good in this deck) and has nice synergy with Loam/Pfire.

Here is the tournament report with SB as far as I remember. At least it is as I would do it today.
Note: I never changed my Board in G3. I don't think there is any particular reason to do that. In general I more or less only board in G3 when I realized I did not board correctly in G2 (i.e. forgot an important card) or when I saw something in my opponents deck that I did not see in G1/2.
In this tournament this did not happen as far as I remember.

Round #1: Mirror (2-1)

As it is the nature of Aggro Loam mirrors it was a grindfest. I won the 1st game with fast KotR.
Game #2 I started with Leyline but my opponent was able to stick his Bob early and take over the game.
Out: -1 Gaddock Teeg, -4 Chalice, -2 Pfire, -1 Maze (kept Karakas as I was not sure if he played DD combo.)
In: +3 Leyline, +2 StP, +1 Rec Sage, +1 Garruk, +1 Golgari Charm
Game #3 I again had a Leyline. After some grinding we both were in top deck mode. Besides my Leyline I had the better draws here so I was able to take over the game.
Same Board


Round #2: Burn (2-0)

I think my opponent was pretty new to the format. He also seemed nervous. I won game #1 with a big KotR and Lili (for some reason he did not kill her, so he had to discard burn spells).
Game#2 he started with Goblin Guide. I played Brutality with all modes on T1 (living the dream, discarding two lands) followed by a 4/4 KotR T2.
Out: -1 Gaddock, -4 Bobs, -1 Karakas
In: +1 Brutality, +2 StP, +1 Rec Sage, +2 Golgari Charm

Round #3: Elves (2-0)

Game #1 won Chalice on 1 and a timely Deluge.
Game #2 my opponent started with Leyline but the game was ruled by Gaddock Teeg, Lili and Ethersorn Canonist making it more or less impossible for my opponent to do anything. Yet, my clock was pretty slow (2/2 KotR) and I had to give him a lot of draws. In the end Lili ulti closed out the game.
Out: -2 KotR, -1 Karakas, -1 Maze, -1 Library, -1 Ooze, -2 Zenith, -1 Loam, -1 Lili (against Elves I keep Gaddock just as a beater and nice to have draw but nevertheless I think Zenith on Gaddock is not worth it. I have to board out stuff for my huge SB plan against elves, so I think this is ok. My strategy after boarding is "kill all the elves" and then think about your own victory. Racing against elves makes no sense imo [at least without DD combo]. They just block your dudes anyway.)
In: +2 TS, +2 StP, +2 Golgari Charm, +1 Brutality, +1 Containment Priest, +2 Canonist

Round #4: Infect (2-1)

Game #1 I was killed by a T3 Blighted Agent in berserk mode (did not find a removal).
Game #2 I killed his Hierarch and wasted his Topical Island. As it turned out he kept a one lander...
Out: -1 Gaddock, -1 Karakas, -1 Ooze, -4 Chalice, -2 Zenith (The curve of Infect makes Chalice bad imo. It is nice to have game 1 but in SB games we want removal. Always. When they pass the turn without a creature in game we probably have won.)
In: +2 StP, +2 TS, +1 Brutality, +2 Canonist, +2 Golgari Charm
Game #3 I had a T1 Bob into several Decays so I could kill all the Infecters he played. Bob put me ahead from there.
Same Board

Round #5: Jund (2-1)

Game #1 I had large KotR to grind the game out. Also Chalice on 1 did some little things like countering a cascaded DS.
Game #2 I was overrun by big Goyfs.
Out: -1 Gaddock, -1 Karakas, -4 Chalice
In: +2 StP, +1 Garruk, +1 Brutality, +2 Golgari Charm (Charm against random Library/Leyline or primarily Bobs. In this MU the one sticking a Bob that does not get handled wins. I think it is the best card I can board in after the 4 obvious ones.)
Game #3 my opponents mana base was soft and he could not handle my Wasteland/Loam hand. I finally won woth big KotRs.
Same Board

Round #6: UR Delver (2-0)

We all know that this isn't the best MU. However, game #1 I resolved a Chalice on 1 and apparently got him totally on 1 cmc spells. After wasting one of his two Volcanic Islands the game was over.
Game #2 was also won by a Chalice on 1. He did not find his Smashes and Bedlam Reveller gave him three 1 cmc spells while being smaller than my KotR.
Out: -1 Gaddock, -1 Karakas, -1 Maze, -1 Loam
In: +2 StP, +1 Brutality, +1 Rec Sage (Rec Sage against Vortex)


Round #7: Elves [Julian Knab] (2-0)

I honestly don't know how I won game #1. He was on the play, I mulled to five keeping a desperate one lander with Mox, PFire, Grove, Lili and KotR and scryed a land on top. All my draws were perfectly sequenced according to this starting hand so that I was able to fight through 2 active DS and take over the game.
Game #2 I had the nuts. T1 Ethersworn Canonist into T2 PFire with Grove into T3 Chalice on 1.
Out: -2 KotR, -1 Karakas, -1 Maze, -1 Library, -1 Ooze, -2 Zenith, -1 Loam, -1 Lili (same boarding plan as in my previous Elves MU).
In: +2 TS, +2 StP, +2 Golgari Charm, +1 Brutality, +1 Containment Priest, +2 Canonist

Round #8: Stoneblade (1-1-1)

Game #1 I lost to a TNN. He had 3 Noble Hierarchs not giving my Lili a chance to do something here. Did not find Deluge.
Game #2 I was able to take the game over with Wastelands.
Out: -1 Teeg, -1 Karakas, -1 Ooze, -4 Chalice
In: +2 StP, +2 Goglari Charm, +2 TS, +1 Rec Sage (TS against TNN and Equipment)
Game #3 was a grindfest and at some point both of us had our hand full of removal spells but the battlefield was empty. Rec Sage killed his Batterskull which was very relevant.
Same Board

Round #9: Eldrazi (1-2)

I did not play smooth in Game #1. As I did not know on what deck my opponent was I desiced to not play Mox on T1 but rater fake a BUG deck by just playing Catacombs. Apparently he knew that I was on Loam as he played his Chalice on 0 destroying my plan to play Lili on T2. He countered the Deluge I set up to get rid of 2 TNS and an Endless One. However, I should have known that he had Warping Wail as both TNS did not take my Deluge. With that in mind I shouldn't have wasted his Eye of Ugin but rather his mana producing land as this would have risen my chances that he does not have 2 mana to cast Warping Wail.
Game #2 I won through a very grindy fight.
Out: -1 Gaddock, -1 Karakas, -4 Chalice
In: +2 StP, +2 TS, +1 Rec Sage, +1 Garruk
Game #3 I kept a slow hand (Library, Zenith, Loam,Rec Sage) without Removal or Wastelands. As it turned out he had a super fast start. His board was weak but I was too slow to find answers. Should have mulliganed this hand for sure.
Same Board

Round #10: 4c Czech Pile [Thomas Mar] (2-0)

Game #1 won a T1 Bob. He did not find an answer to Bob (concerning that he pondered really hard I think I was pretty lucky here) and soon a Chalice on 1 closed the game.
Game #2 I was on the Wasteland/Loam plan. With finally 6 Dual Lands in his graveyard the game was over.
Out: -1 Gaddock, -1 Karakas, -1 Maze
In: +2 StP, +1 Brutality

Quarter Finals: BR Reanimator (1-2)

My opponent had a better placement so he was on the play and started with a T1 Griselbrand as he knew I was on Loam and had no disruption.
Game #2 I hade double Leyling into Ooze into Chalice on 1.
Out: -1 Gaddock, -3 PFire, -3 Decay
In: +3 Leyline, +1 Containment Priest, +2 TS, +1 Brutality
Game #3 I did not find a Leyline. My mulligan to 5 has at least a Chalice on 1. Well, he put a T1 Gravetitan on the battlefield...
Same Board

[Bobmans]

Well, I boarded Brutality so often that I decided to play it main. I moved Ghost Quarter to SB again as I think it does not really help in bad MUs but rather in good MUs (Delver/4c Piles). I also removed Toxic Deluge as the TNN hype seems to fade (at least in my experience).
I really like the card. It helps against combo, gets rid of Shamans/Delvers/Goblin Guides, sometimes finishes the game or gives you one more turn (having access to some lifegain feels good in this deck) and has nice synergy with Loam/Pfire.



GQ underperformed for me as well. Wasteland is really enough, imo. Also i am not so sure about Cabal Pit, the only real reason to run this, is against Prelate, so Cabal Pit should be a SB slot at most. For now, DD/Stage has more impact as it is still a win button, and the threat is something to consider for opponents. I like to believe that it forces them to think about the angles of attack we can take. For example, they can try and wasteland our Groves to shut out PFire, which in it's turn removes the wasteland threat against a potential Marit Lage. In so many cases it can break symmetry, where the board is in a deadlock.
Interesting to hear about the Deluge, aside of Elves and TNN the card provides anough value. We do not have any sweeper and sometimes our removal G1 isn't sufficient. I have been considering between QPM and Deluge, but decided that Deluge more actuall usage G1 then QPM. Most of the time i try to fit PFire #4, replacing both with Brutatility might be interesting to try.

Again a 5-0 for Aggro Loam (https://mtgdecks.net/Legacy/aggro-loam-decklist-by-stackz-685138), one Bicycle land in this version, still wondering how good those actually are.

[Pilhas]

Again a 5-0 for Aggro Loam (https://mtgdecks.net/Legacy/aggro-loam-decklist-by-stackz-685138), one Bicycle land in this version, still wondering how good those actually are.

The bicycle land was interesting. It impacted the times when I was digging since you want cmc1 cycle ones. The thing that was great was to be able to run a basic swamp for the barren moor and the badlands for this one....
Turns your matchup against wasteland and against moon decks more solid. Still needs a lot more testing.

I am also thinkin on taking GQ to the sideboard once again or even out of the list since it does not really fit my playstyle. Need to get my hands on Brutality to test it out.

[CptHaddock]

The bicycle land was interesting. It impacted the times when I was digging since you want cmc1 cycle ones. The thing that was great was to be able to run a basic swamp for the barren moor and the badlands for this one....
Turns your matchup against wasteland and against moon decks more solid. Still needs a lot more testing.

I am also thinkin on taking GQ to the sideboard once again or even out of the list since it does not really fit my playstyle. Need to get my hands on Brutality to test it out.

Are they releasing the other half of the bicycle lands in the next block? I'd be more willing to experiment once they release a :w:/:r: and :g:/:b: one, having more lands that can be sac'd with Knight is always a good thing.

[Stuhl]

GQ underperformed for me as well. Wasteland is really enough, imo. Also i am not so sure about Cabal Pit, the only real reason to run this, is against Prelate, so Cabal Pit should be a SB slot at most.

Well, I don't think that Cabal Pit is bad right now. I think there are way more applications than Prelate. It is basically a removal spell we can get out of KotR. With Loam it is a recurring removal spell. I won lots of games by killing a critical Delver with Pit. I don't want to miss it right now. Even in weird situations in which you have to kill your own Bob to secure the game state it shines. I enjoy this flexibility more than having the DD combo out.

I'm not sold on the bicycle lands. I think it is very critical to cycle for 1. In most Loam/cycle land scenarios you have exactly 1 mana open to start the engine. The fact that it produces two colors is not worth the downside of cycling it for 2 imo.

[Pilhas]

Are they releasing the other half of the bicycle lands in the next block? I'd be more willing to experiment once they release a :w:/:r: and :g:/:b: one, having more lands that can be sac'd with Knight is always a good thing.

You can easily go the other route and replace the tranquil thicket with the G/W and keep barren moor. Maybe that is not a bad ideia



I'm not sold on the bicycle lands. I think it is very critical to cycle for 1. In most Loam/cycle land scenarios you have exactly 1 mana open to start the engine. The fact that it produces two colors is not worth the downside of cycling it for 2 imo.

Just to clarify that I am not sold on those by any means.... Just trying to get a more stable manabase if possible.

[apocolyps6]

I watched/assisted a friend of mine playing the deck on modo with a bicycle land, and every time we used it to actually cycle, it was strictly worse than Tranquil Thicket. Like.. it kept us off of plays and changed the outcome of games. Maybe there is some logic to the black-based fetches, but I don't play those as my manabase is Gxxx (no Badlands) and I almost never actually play cycles as lands.

I'm hearing a lot of "Move x to the board", and tbh my board is more tight than my main right now.

I don't think moon-stompy has ever been a bad matchup. If you mull to a green source you basically auto-win. On the draw that's 80.6% if you are willing to go to 5, and like 98%+ on the play. Plus the scry.

Is anybody still liking GQ? I was gonna finally test it in the main tonight, but I'm very willing to buy the argument against it and save the trouble.

I'm evaluating Cabal Pit as a better Maze of ith (it makes mana in its bad matchups) to justify playing it *and* the combo. Its obv worse against Sneak&Show, Goyf, Eldrazi, but I think tapping for mana makes up for all of that.

[Pilhas]

I don't think moon-stompy has ever been a bad matchup. If you mull to a green source you basically auto-win. On the draw that's 80.6% if you are willing to go to 5, and like 98%+ on the play. Plus the scry.

Really? It stops most of your deck and you only know what you are playing against in g2 or 3.
They also got the new commander card to mess with our moxes and creatures(except knight). Besides, you are never sure which version they are running since the shell is much of the same but the winning conditions vary greatly (Planeswalker/Creatures/Sneak Attack)

If this is not a bad matchup I am not sure what would qualify as one....

[apocolyps6]

Hm, so when I play against the deck I tend to know my opponent is on it, which skews my perception.

And I get the sense that I have a stronger tendency to mull to moxen then most other pilots. IMO going to 6 is perfectly fine cuz the deck will unmull with bob/library/pfire/loam/etc eventually.

I'm also playing Pridemage main and 3 GSZ so I probably should not have been so general in my statement.

So the ways in which my list deviates from the stock one make the matchup pretty decent for me personally, but I can see why the stock list is struggling.

Even so, if you start each postboard-game with a mox now you have pfire+plow against magus, and Zenith for Rec Sage against Moon. I guess Sneak Attack is bad either way because your defense is proactively zenithing for Teeg and hoping to dodge Inferno Titan or w.e. But against random dudes/walkers I think you have enough time to Library/Bob into another mox to turn on the rest of your spells, at which point their gameplan just melts to our interaction.

[CptHaddock]

Hm, so when I play against the deck I tend to know my opponent is on it, which skews my perception.

And I get the sense that I have a stronger tendency to mull to moxen then most other pilots. IMO going to 6 is perfectly fine cuz the deck will unmull with bob/library/pfire/loam/etc eventually.

I'm also playing Pridemage main and 3 GSZ so I probably should not have been so general in my statement.

So the ways in which my list deviates from the stock one make the matchup pretty decent for me personally, but I can see why the stock list is struggling.

Even so, if you start each postboard-game with a mox now you have pfire+plow against magus, and Zenith for Rec Sage against Moon. I guess Sneak Attack is bad either way because your defense is proactively zenithing for Teeg and hoping to dodge Inferno Titan or w.e. But against random dudes/walkers I think you have enough time to Library/Bob into another mox to turn on the rest of your spells, at which point their gameplan just melts to our interaction.

Doesn't it seem a tad unreasonable to say it's heavily favorable when you your only results seem to be playing against locals who you know are playing the deck and you mulligan to your outs?

[apocolyps6]

I've basically walked back that statement, but I'm not only playing against confirmed moon ppl. I do lose the surprise game1s. But I also do keep a *lot* of Mox hands, and tend to fetch a basic with those hands, so I'm not winning the g1s purely from anticipation either

[Stuhl]

Well, besides Blood Moon which can be handled via Moxes we just lose to Sneak Attack and Through the Breach. Usually the mono red stompy decks ramp and can put an Emrakul/Worldspine Wurm into play within the first turns and we can do nothing against it. Gaddock Teeg often is too slow.
Chalice on 0 is ok preboard to prevent Petals/Moxes at least.

In my opinion this MU is horrible besides the Blood Moon discussion.

[apocolyps6]

Yeah, the sneak attack version is quite hard. My understanding is that it was more fringe and less consistent than the others. Is that not the case?

[CptHaddock]

Yeah, the sneak attack version is quite hard. My understanding is that it was more fringe and less consistent than the others. Is that not the case?

I don't know about real life but on mtgo it certainly feels like there are more sneak decks out there than stompy decks. No idea about the consistency either, I imagine it's roughly the same. Midwestern players need to stop with the degeneracy honestly. :cry:

[Richard Arschmann]

Matthias Hunt said on stream at SCG Louisville yesterday that Lands does everything Loam does better. Why do you disagree? It seems like having the ability to run W hatebears to improve combo matchups as the single largest reason to play 4c Loam.

[Claymore]

Mainboard Chalice, discard, hatebears, board presence, not losing to a Blood Moon or Rest in Peace or Surgical...4C Loam is a very adaptable deck to each matchup. The decks are similar but very different game plans.

Those two SCG commentators have had some room for improvement lately.

[Pilhas]

The decks are similar but very different game plans.

[apocolyps6]

The deck is cosmetically similar to Lands, but it plays much closer to Jund or Maverick.

A couple years ago people would have disagreed that they are even similar.

The Loam-Lands comparison is a bit like saying a Swiss Army knife is just a worse screwdriver.

[Claymore]

http://itsjulian.com/too-much-information-mkm-series-frankfurt/

From here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?31698-Every-Match-Revealed-A-Comprehensive-Analysis-of-all-2-000-matches-played-at-MKM-Fra

Really good breakdown, and shows how 4c loam is positioned against various decks in the meta. It's one tournament, but still a good amount of data for the 13 players on this deck in a 436 person event.

[juzamjimjams]

The deck is cosmetically similar to Lands, but it plays much closer to Jund or Maverick.

A couple years ago people would have disagreed that they are even similar.

The Loam-Lands comparison is a bit like saying a Swiss Army knife is just a worse screwdriver.

To expand on these remarks a little, I think it's interesting to consider the perspective of the player looking at the deck.
A Lands player, or an 'older' (for lack of a better term) legacy player can identify the cosmetic similarities to lands, and may view the strategy as diluted.
Jund and Maverick players may see the similarities to their own deck alongside the anti-blue hate pieces, and therefore may be more attracted to the strategy over Lands players.

I've noticed a trend that the major proponents of Loam tend to be either players with quite a good amount of experience with it, or players that play the deck pretty much exclusively. It seems that the flexibility of the strategy isn't an aspect that is largely appreciated, and I am not sure if Matthias is a big legacy player or not - but I don't believe this is a huge failing on his part. Don't get me wrong, SCG commentary of legacy when it's not Ceddy P and P sully leaves much to be desired, but when a deck isn't fully appreciated by even the community of it's own format, it's bound to be misrepresented in coverage.

[Claymore]

Players in my shop (and others I've run into) seem to have trouble telling the difference between Turbo Depths, RG Lands, and Jund Depths. Some even roll 4c Loam into the 'Lands' archetype, so fairly easy to see that point. Now it seems all Lands decks play both Sylvan Scrying, Entomb, and Life from the Loam.

But, for a commentator, he should know the difference between at least RG Lands and 4C Loam.

[CptHaddock]

But, for a commentator, he should know the difference between at least RG Lands and 4C Loam.

I think you mean Punishing Abzan. :tongue:

[deakmana]

I think you mean Punishing Abzan. :tongue:

#triggered

[Snowfire]

Since Miracles is gone, is Gaddock Teeg still worth it in the main board only for the Storm/Belcher matchup? Or are there an other matchups where he shines?

[Barachai]

Since Miracles is gone, is Gaddock Teeg still worth it in the main board only for the Storm/Belcher matchup? Or are there an other matchups where he shines?

I've won more than one game where storm duresses me and I happened to have the teeg in hand. Also very useful vs moon stompy, most of their scary things cost 4.

[Claymore]

Sneak Attack, Natural Order, GSZ, Jace (Czech midrange), Invigorate. I think he's okay still. Not amazing though.

What could he be replaced by? Scavenging Ooze or a firm DRS slot would be my first two options. Tarmogoyf could be considered as an additional beater.

[Seraphix]

Jeff Hoogland streaming some Wish Loam today:


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DAwHHBUXsAANcRn.jpg:large

[Claymore]

Looks pretty decent. This is based on his old Devastating Dreams lists that kickstarted this archetype.

Burning Wish does seem nice against the meta that packs a ton of Surgicals now.

[rabidw0lf]

Wow that's quite the flashback.. needs some seismic assaults for complete nostalgia

Isn't Burning Wish a little slow in the current meta?

[juzamjimjams]

Isn't Burning Wish a little slow in the current meta?

Resilience to Surgical Extraction is definitely cool, but I've always thought that one of the strengths of the deck is that it doesn't completely fold to these effects (KOTR is definitely backbreaking but that isn't usually feasible). IMO Burning Wish just adds an extra hoop to jump through to try to achieve a flexibility the deck doesn't really need anymore, density and diversity of threats is both resilient and doesn't rely on resolving a 2 mana spell that doesn't impact the game state - you're also diluting the SB a bunch by including wish cards.

[apocolyps6]

Yeah, IMO Burning Wish is not really where you wanna be. I might have been the last person to abandon the card, but we simply have better things to be doing.

Think of it as a virtual 4drop. The deck can't afford any 4drops now, so I don't see it changing any time soon.

TBH towards the end most of what I was doing with the wishes was baiting counterspells.

That list has actually devolved since he last played it (back to monestary, goyf, etc)

If people are looking for more of a linear "answers deck" that might actually be up their ally tho

[Stuhl]

Since Miracles is gone, is Gaddock Teeg still worth it in the main board only for the Storm/Belcher matchup? Or are there an other matchups where he shines?

Well, recent results show, that Miracles isn't gone. Chalice on 1 + Gaddock Teeg is hard lock for the new Miracles lists:

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/legacy-wur-37971#paper

[btm10]

I've been toying around with a new list that looks a lot more like apocalyps6's than Kronberger's. It's more proactive and eschews Liliana and Bob for more on-board power and consistency. I'm pretty happy so far as it seems that my combo and Delver matchups haven't gotten worse. Might this actually be reasonable?

4 Mox Diamond
3 Wasteland
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Windswept Heath
1 Forest
1 Swamp (this might be better as a creature-land or Plains)
1 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Plateau
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
1 Dryad Arbor
1 City of Traitors
1 Maze of Ith
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Cabal Pit (better as Barbarian Ring?)
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Dark Depths

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Punishing Fire
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Sylvan Library
2 Life from the Loam
2 Toxic Deluge (maybe 1/1 with Fiery Justice, but killing TNN seems better than going 1-for-1 with Angler, Smasher, and Tombstalker)
1 Crucible of Worlds

4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Qasali Pridemage

Sideboard
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Thoughtseize
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Sphere of Resistance
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Kjeldoran Outpost

The SB Outpost might be better as a Garruk, but with the more controlling decks moving toward the actual card Counterspell I like 4 drops a lot less than an endless stream of uncounterable tokens. I could also see cutting the MD Crucible and Depths for some combination of a fourth GSZ, third Tireless Tracker, Thalia, and Tarmogoyf. Stage has been good enough on its own so far that Depths doesn't seem necessary (but is mostly free with Stage).

[Sergi]

Now that miracles is gone, we can move to the original Jund colors (better manabase),

I tried the olds lists with Seimic Assault + the new Shadow of the grave and is game ending (also as Jeff used, devastating dreams for clearing tokens).

Instead of punishing fires: barbarian ring + loam could be enough and avoid color protections. Turning the deck more red, makes the deck less vulnerable to blood moons, in fact helps casting seismic assaults.

[rabidw0lf]

Now that miracles is gone, we can move to the original Jund colors (better manabase),

I tried the olds lists with Seimic Assault + the new Shadow of the grave and is game ending (also as Jeff used, devastating dreams for clearing tokens).

Instead of punishing fires: barbarian ring + loam could be enough and avoid color protections. Turning the deck more red, makes the deck less vulnerable to blood moons, in fact helps casting seismic assaults.

Miracles is not gone. I just played against the Portent Miracles. Terminus is still a real threat. Lili was a house here.

Id love to play Seismic again except RRR is asking alot to go with BB and GB and dies to Decay which is still in basically every deck that isn't combo.

[juzamjimjams]

Now that miracles is gone, we can move to the original Jund colors (better manabase),

I tried the olds lists with Seimic Assault + the new Shadow of the grave and is game ending (also as Jeff used, devastating dreams for clearing tokens).

Instead of punishing fires: barbarian ring + loam could be enough and avoid color protections. Turning the deck more red, makes the deck less vulnerable to blood moons, in fact helps casting seismic assaults.

As stated before, Miracles is not gone. Regardless of that however, I can't imagine dropping Knight of the Reliquary to be defensible.

[CptHaddock]

Now that miracles is gone, we can move to the original Jund colors (better manabase),

I tried the olds lists with Seimic Assault + the new Shadow of the grave and is game ending (also as Jeff used, devastating dreams for clearing tokens).

Instead of punishing fires: barbarian ring + loam could be enough and avoid color protections. Turning the deck more red, makes the deck less vulnerable to blood moons, in fact helps casting seismic assaults.

Imo the only thing that you get by moving back to the original Jund colors is a slightly more stable manabase and slightly improved fair matchups. Losing the hatebears is a BIG deal, it's no longer 2012 and almost every popular combo deck has gotten a big boost along the way. I guess you're kind of priced into running more discard or maybe a playset of thorns however there is nothing lost from trying.

Jeff's list looks really threat light...

[apocolyps6]

The Seismic Assault thing feels like pure nostalgia. We simply are not living in a world where decks can be built around decayable engines. All power to you if you want to prove that wrong, but decks like stiflenaught have been struggling with this for years now.

About btm10's list, there is a lot going on here.

I've recently been kind of meh on bob, so I'm tempted to try some of this out. In particular I've thought about Tracker and sol lands before, but not together. I'm gonna try something like this:

Land (28)
2x Bayou
1x Cabal Pit
1x Dark Depths
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Forest
2x Grove of the Burnwillows
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Karakas
1x Plateau
1x Savannah
1x Scrubland
1x Taiga
1x Thespian's Stage
2x Tranquil Thicket
2x Ancient Tomb
1x Verdant Catacombs
4x Wasteland
4x Windswept Heath
Creature (11)
3x Tireless Tracker
1x Deathrite Shaman
1x Gaddock Teeg
4x Knight of the Reliquary
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Scavenging Ooze
Instant (6)
3x Abrupt Decay
3x Punishing Fire
Sorcery (5)
3x Green Sun's Zenith
2x Life from the Loam
Artifact (8)
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Mox Diamond
Enchantment (2)
2x Sylvan Library

I don't like cutting the 2nd catacomb for a colorless land, but I'm not sure what to cut instead. I've wanted to play 1-2 tomb to get better chalices and zeniths, but with only 7 cards that fully benefit the tomb did not do enough. It also makes value chokes out of the board quite good. At this point, we are kind of dipping into Sylvan Plug territory, and all the clunkiness that comes with playing sol lands with decays.

I'd love to see how the list performs. Especially how the 0 cycle lands are for you.

[bakofried]

Hey folks,
I don’t post much anymore, but I’ve been playing 4 Color Loam on and off since last summer, and it’s what I’ll (in all likelihood) be taking to Grand Prix Vegas. There was a trial at my LGS today, and I played this deck to a 4th place finish out of 17 players, going 3-1-1 prior to top 8, where I was knocked out in the semifinals. I thought I’d post a tournament report so I could get some opinions, pointers, et cetera from you fine people.

First off, here’s the list that I played:

Creatures:
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Dark Confidant
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Dryad Arbor

Artifacts:
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond

Enchantments:
1 Sylvan Library

Planeswalkers:
3 Liliana of the Veil


Sorceries:
2 Life from the Loam
2 Green Sun’s Zenith
1 Collective Brutality

Instants:
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire

Lands:
4 Wasteland
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Cabal Pit
1 Barren Moor
1 Tranquil Thicket
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
1 Forest

Sideboard:
3 Leyline of the Void
2 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Golgari Charm
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Collective Brutality

The way I figure it, there’s about 3 flex slots in the main, 2 of which can be filled with spells, and one that’s a land. The configuration I used was 1 Deathrite Shaman, 1 Collective Brutality, and 1 Cabal Pit. I played a similar set up at Knightware’s last GPT (-1 Cabal Pit, +1 Swamp), but was unimpressed by the extra basic, which I included as a hedge against Blood Moon decks. I don’t necessarily like the dissonance between DRS and Chalice, but the littlest planeswalker is a great hedge against hands without Diamond, and I always regret cutting him. Pit wasn’t significantly better than Swamp or an extra cycling land, but it’s never lost me a game and is occasionally quite useful. Brutality is a fantastic catch all, thus the inclusion. Anyhoo, on to the tournament. Last names won’t be included for privacy reasons. All my opponents were humble in victory, gracious in defeat, and made every effort to keep the matches from becoming too serious. The particulars of my sideboarding plans I can’t quite remember, though on the whole they’re accurate. Cards that I’m unsure will be marked with a ‘*’.

Round 1: Sean playing Black-Red Reanimator
Game 1: Win
He kept a relatively slow, disruptive hand, and I derped my way into a Liliana of the Veil. It was only afterwards that I realized I jammed it straight into a Chancellor of the Annex trigger, but both of us forgot about it. I’d like to say that I mindtricked my way through a proverbial Chalice trigger, but it was simply a misplay on my part that happened to work out. If I’m not remembering the rules concerning triggers correctly, please let me know.
Sideboard:
-3 Abrupt Decay, -3 Punishing Fire, -2 Life from the Loam, -1 Sylvan Library
+3 Leyline of the Void, +2 Containment Priest, +2 Swords to Plowshares, +1 Toxic Deluge, +1 Collective Brutality
Game 2: Win
I don’t remember if I mulled at all to search for my Leyline of the Void, but I know I had one in play. That, in conjunction with other disruption sealed the game.


Round 2: Fernando playing Grixis Delver
Game 1: Loss
I kept a solid, but slow hand that was made slower by playing around Stifle, which it turns out he wasn’t playing. I should have pushed more of a board presence, but failed to do so until turn 3 or 4. His turn 3 and turn 4 True-Name Nemesis mopped up quickly after that.
Sideboard:
-1 Gaddock Teeg, -1 Sylvan Library, -1 Green Sun’s Zenith*, -1 Karakas*
+2 Golgari Charm, +1 Toxic Deluge, +1 Collective Brutality
Game 2: Win
I don’t remember the particulars of this game, but it went long, and I never actually presented a win condition. Rather, between Chalice, Lili, and Loam+Wasteland+Pit+Thicket, he was locked out, and scooped to try and win a quick game 3 against me.
Game 3: Draw
The details are lost on me, once again. We played as quick as we could, he disrupted me to no end with Probe+Therapy, but I got a lock going. Sadly, I couldn’t close the game out: he had therapy’ed away 2 of my Knights, so I had no pressure.

Round 3: Cliff playing Big Red
Game 1: Loss
Blood Moon got there, despite my best attempts to the contrary.
Sideboard:
-4 Chalice of the Void, -2 Life from the Loam, -1 Karakas
+2 Golgari Charm, +2 Swords to Plowshares, +1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance, +1 Toxic Deluge, +1 Reclamation Sage
Game 2: Loss
I fought a little harder this time, but the game stalled out due to Ensnaring Bridge, which gave him time to amass a considerable array of threats, disruption, etc. Strong start but he closed it out handily.

Round 4: Ted playing Shardless BUG
Game 1: Loss
His list was a little unorthodox in that he runs a playset of TNN, which makes me (a Maverick player at heart) pretty anxious. I tried to land a Lili, but he got there without too much trouble from me along the way.
Sideboard:
-4 Chalice of the Void, -1 Gaddock Teeg, -1 Green Sun’s Zenith*, -1 Karakas
+2 Golgari Charm, +2 Swords to Plowshares, +1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance, +1 Toxic Deluge, +1 Collective Brutality
Game 2: Win
I can’t quite remember how I got there in game 2, but I’m pretty sure it involved Dark Confidant resolving and running for some turns before getting nixed. He stalled the board out with a TNN, but Deluge for X=2 swept away all his blockers and let Knight take the game.
Game 3: Win
He fetched basics to play around my Wastelands, but unfortunately his deck decided to hand him duals and Wastelands, so the Loam engine effectively sealed the game away.

Round 5: Jeremy playing Burn
Game 1: Loss
I kept a passable, if not great hand, but it didn’t get there. Chalice showed up late to the game and my removal hardly mattered.
Sideboard:
-4 Dark Confidant, -1 Sylvan Library, -1 Karakas*
+2 Ethersworn Canonist, +2 Golgari Charm, +1 Reclamation Sage, +1 Collective Brutality
Game 2: Win
All the possible hate showed up. Chalice did great work, as did Rec Sage. Collective Brutality is a house in this match-up.
Game 3: Win
This game was somewhat one sided, as he had to mull to 4, and I had a hand chock full of spells, and was able to contain his few attempts at breaking out.

Top 8
I know, a Top 8 out of 17 players might not sound like much, but it’s huge for my area. Here’s hoping that we recruit more players to the local legacy scene.

Quarter Finals: Jacob playing Belcher
Game 1: Win
At this point, we all know what each other is playing, so I snap keep a hand with Chalice even though I don’t have a Mox. He was on the play, but didn’t realize I play Chalice, so he just passed the turn to me with rocks in hand. Later he said he wanted to keep them for Storm count. My Chalice for 0 does solid work, as does my turn one Confidant off of a Diamond, but he’s able to Empty for 10 goblin tokens and passes. I make a Knight and pass back, taking 8 and losing my Confidant. Next turn Knight gets a Grove for P. Fire (which I can cast twice in said turn) and I take 5, the turn after I get a Lili, block with Knight, and find a Maze, and eventually stabilize at 4. From there I take over.
Sideboard:
-3 Abrupt Decay, -3 Punishing Fire, -2 Life from the Loam
+2 Ethersworn Canonist, +2 Golgari Charm, +1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance (I’m aware this was loose), +1 Toxic Deluge, +1 Reclamation Sage, +1 Collective Brutality
Game 2: Win
He leads with a Land Grant and a few rocks, alongside a Probe. I cast a Chalice turn 1 for 0, and pass back hoping he doesn’t have it. He doesn’t, but turn 2 I spend some time debating whether I should cast Teeg or Chalice for 1 (my line of reasoning that while Teeg is immediately better, I couldn’t cast Chalice at 1 if I did play him). I decide on Teeg, which was the right choice. I took care not to run my Teeg (or later, Dark Confidant) into his Tinder Wall, but almost did. He looked a bit sad after I passed the turn without attacking. Eventually I get rid of his Tinder Walls with Lili, and start clocking him.

Semi Finals: Kevin playing Black Red Reanimator
Game 1: Loss
He leads with Chancellor reveal into turn 1 reanimated Chancellor. I try to dig to a Maze, a Lili, something before he kills me, but Chancellor gets there.
Sideboard:
-3 Abrupt Decay, -3 Punishing Fire, -2 Life from the Loam, -1 Sylvan Library
+3 Leyline of the Void, +2 Containment Priest, +2 Swords to Plowshares, +1 Toxic Deluge, +1 Collective Brutality
Game 2: Win
Leyline turn 0 was backed up by Lili, Maze, and other goodstuff.
Game 3: Loss
I kept a 6 card hand that had a bit of play to it, but I should have just mulled. Chancellor into Grave Titan made me a sad panda, and though the game went long, once the Titan hit the field it was a foregone conclusion.

Overall Record: 5-1-1
On the whole, I like how the deck felt. The main ran super smooth and only gave me problems a few times. The sideboard might need a bit of work; I think I want to go up to 4 Leyline, but don’t know what to cut. Comments are appreciated, especially as I may have missed something.

[Sergi]

The Seismic Assault thing feels like pure nostalgia. We simply are not living in a world where decks can be built around decayable engines.

Yes, sure it's nostalgia, but well, Seismic Assault is as decayable as knight with the addition that does not has summon sickness or being weak to swords. Just want to share some ideas if the meta is filling with blood moons.

[apocolyps6]

I did use the word engine for a reason. This isn't just the "dies to doomblade argument" as the Seismic Assault deck is much worse without Assault. You end up having to play more GY dependent cards and cycle lands than you would otherwise want.

There are less drastic changes that can be made if you are drowning in moons.

[btm10]

Land (28)
2x Bayou
1x Cabal Pit
1x Dark Depths
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Forest
2x Grove of the Burnwillows
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Karakas
1x Plateau
1x Savannah
1x Scrubland
1x Taiga
1x Thespian's Stage
2x Tranquil Thicket
2x Ancient Tomb
1x Verdant Catacombs
4x Wasteland
4x Windswept Heath
Creature (11)
3x Tireless Tracker
1x Deathrite Shaman
1x Gaddock Teeg
4x Knight of the Reliquary
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Scavenging Ooze
Instant (6)
3x Abrupt Decay
3x Punishing Fire
Sorcery (5)
3x Green Sun's Zenith
2x Life from the Loam
Artifact (8)
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Mox Diamond
Enchantment (2)
2x Sylvan Library

I don't like cutting the 2nd catacomb for a colorless land, but I'm not sure what to cut instead. I've wanted to play 1-2 tomb to get better chalices and zeniths, but with only 7 cards that fully benefit the tomb did not do enough. It also makes value chokes out of the board quite good. At this point, we are kind of dipping into Sylvan Plug territory, and all the clunkiness that comes with playing sol lands with decays.

I'd love to see how the list performs. Especially how the 0 cycle lands are for you.

I'm glad that someone is interested in this approach.

While I'm only a handful of matches into my own testing (~15 over the past week), I have been able to come to some reasonable preliminary conclusions. The most important is that the cycling lands are unnecessary in this build, with tracker providing so much incidental card draw. If you're on 3 Trackers and 2 Sol Lands, you'll see quickly that turn 1 Tracker hands lead to disgusting turn 2s and 3s with regularity. Not only does that lead directly into plays like turn 2 GSZ for Knight or turn 2 Loam + Scooze/Library, even mediocre hands that 'just' curve Tracker into a fetchland mean you're swinging for 5 and drawing two cards on turn 2. The fetchland interaction alone means that Tracker has to be killed more quickly than Bob since letting you untap with it is often a 3-for-1. I'm running the City main with a Tomb in the board because I found that I was taking too much damage from Tomb over a long game, especially when Deluge matters, but mana stability is much more important than life total against combo, hence the SB Tomb. The Sol Land+ Decay issue has come up a few times, but it's never been so detrimental that I've lost a game because of it. I'd love to find another removal spell that's slightly easier to cast, so maybe something like MD Collective Brutality would be good.

EDIT:

Hey folks,
I don’t post much anymore, but I’ve been playing 4 Color Loam on and off since last summer, and it’s what I’ll (in all likelihood) be taking to Grand Prix Vegas. There was a trial at my LGS today, and I played this deck to a 4th place finish out of 17 players, going 3-1-1 prior to top 8, where I was knocked out in the semifinals. I thought I’d post a tournament report so I could get some opinions, pointers, et cetera from you fine people.

The way I figure it, there’s about 3 flex slots in the main, 2 of which can be filled with spells, and one that’s a land. The configuration I used was 1 Deathrite Shaman, 1 Collective Brutality, and 1 Cabal Pit. I played a similar set up at Knightware’s last GPT (-1 Cabal Pit, +1 Swamp), but was unimpressed by the extra basic, which I included as a hedge against Blood Moon decks. I don’t necessarily like the dissonance between DRS and Chalice, but the littlest planeswalker is a great hedge against hands without Diamond, and I always regret cutting him. Pit wasn’t significantly better than Swamp or an extra cycling land, but it’s never lost me a game and is occasionally quite useful. Brutality is a fantastic catch all, thus the inclusion. Anyhoo, on to the tournament. Last names won’t be included for privacy reasons. All my opponents were humble in victory, gracious in defeat, and made every effort to keep the matches from becoming too serious. The particulars of my sideboarding plans I can’t quite remember, though on the whole they’re accurate.


I'm somewhat surprised to see al of your Decays come out against BR Reanimator since Decay is an answer to Animate Dead (you can kill it with the trigger on the stack and nothing happens) as well as a way to deal with Pithing Needles and Blood Moons out of their sideboard, and I like the fourth Leyline a lot. I also trim 1-2 Chalices against Grixis on the play and cut them completely on the draw since supplemental removal in the form of Swords is more important than the possibility of locking them out. Thalia and Sphere effects are also excellent there in my experience.

[bakofried]

@btm10:
Regarding Decays and Reanimator, I don't know how I feel about that. I never feel like I have enough control over the Reanimator MU to warrant playing a step ahead of their counter-hate. If there's something else you think I should cut to keep AD in (even as a 1 or a 2 of in that MU), I'm all ears, but there's not a whole lot of room, especially if I go up to 4 Leyline. Regarding Grixis Delver, I understand boarding out Chalices on the draw, but I don't think I've ever lost a game to them with Chalice on the field that didn't involve a TNN or a Tombstalker. And I'd certainly rather have Chalice over sphere effects, as our removal is more expensive than their threats. Throwing spheres into the mix wouldn't alleviate that, IMO. If others are on a similar game plan I'd be glad to hear it.

[CptHaddock]

@btm10:
Regarding Decays and Reanimator, I don't know how I feel about that. I never feel like I have enough control over the Reanimator MU to warrant playing a step ahead of their counter-hate. If there's something else you think I should cut to keep AD in (even as a 1 or a 2 of in that MU), I'm all ears, but there's not a whole lot of room, especially if I go up to 4 Leyline. Regarding Grixis Delver, I understand boarding out Chalices on the draw, but I don't think I've ever lost a game to them with Chalice on the field that didn't involve a TNN or a Tombstalker. And I'd certainly rather have Chalice over sphere effects, as our removal is more expensive than their threats. Throwing spheres into the mix wouldn't alleviate that, IMO. If others are on a similar game plan I'd be glad to hear it.

I usually keep in 1 decay and board out a teeg, but other than that my boarding is the exact same as yours. Baring some random cards like Reverent Silence he's not really stopping anything. I keep 1 decay in as a hedge but most of the times the games are usually over by turn 1 or 2. I don't think it's worth keeping in the full set since you're hitting exactly 4 cards with it and keeping it in your hand when your opponent plays a ton of discard is very hard.

[bakofried]

In hindsight I may have boarded out Teeg in that MU, keeping in Library.

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[rabidw0lf]

Got my byes for Vegas this weekend. And now
Got these gems in the mail today. Now i need to find a 3rd one to replace the FTV one.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/ZaHm50GONV2homkImdgIV5i4DzdaIYPHGntfgs2Tacw6lGWGxv_-jxyLPOZqlYqN44JzmL4wgnOvMJlLgFqY9ul5zk4dtSuku7rP_RxweGIE1Z39uJCkCsp-GLRjq3SqEt3YdNLTqEmRwjp1IEA3eCcszWZPedwYaO6EeGfCdS95T1609ZHNtTzU4muO1sJ4KAKRuH0RoNO0G63Cc8RV5lZgcdQSLOESqVDxuPuFImA0iCBTtBqO99iJO0TWozjr2-RfCVALCcWz8CjSLsbb9-9tGwAgnTxb8ZQCi2uQdvJi80GB7b5Z1-D14aMUxBtRdEsEsoShUpatcVJGhTDx1ndZCivwZC6hrl7Zh19FYvlIwjmT5Cy4_pa9NWCei_0fA3PRM22DlbNl-gFdsQMPYmD4jCUiQMQiPz2BWYZJCJtDesrarebmZ930wGLaVNzEYA6nQeVD4Kgm2hIWeMMe31RBd-PG7ZubTKicVbrMWu-qNqpKWpbJswaUff1gkSDJaPbwIiY2r7cUBOCqx7Ch9VhhEceq0rgkokgpZndWV9fRdlzXu-wK4mXmtE5eUW291H0sJiumtgP5KzpXiAzcCJ3GSoSHUW2uNTeTHTiyGSRFAlL7IP8MemihcxuiJ7nmh2UqbbNYmqaBtplmVkJ9VSIkA-Yw1xhYUsAY-ULcXg=w1299-h974-no

[bakofried]

Proposed changes to my last list: cut Sylvan Library altogether, move the 2nd copy of Collective Brutality from the side to the main, and up the number of Leylines from 3 to 4. Thoughts?

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[B is for Big Job]

Proposed changes to my last list: cut Sylvan Library altogether, move the 2nd copy of Collective Brutality from the side to the main, and up the number of Leylines from 3 to 4. Thoughts?

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I do not play the deck often so take this with a grain of salt but I am a big advocate for Sylvan Library. With Knight, fetches, and GSZ it does let us see a lot of cards if it is in play. Also drawing extra cards with life instead of with Loam/ mana could help turn the tide if you need a land/ removal spell.

[CptHaddock]

I do not play the deck often so take this with a grain of salt but I am a big advocate for Sylvan Library. With Knight, fetches, and GSZ it does let us see a lot of cards if it is in play. Also drawing extra cards with life instead of with Loam/ mana could help turn the tide if you need a land/ removal spell.

I agree, I wouldn't go down to 0 Sylvans unless you are running something like 2 chains in your maindeck. Sylvan is such a game changer in the midrange/control matchups, just having the ability to be up cards/find what you are looking for in those matchups is so great in a nonblue deck.

I also wouldn't go up to 4 leylines.

[bakofried]

I agree, I wouldn't go down to 0 Sylvans unless you are running something like 2 chains in your maindeck. Sylvan is such a game changer in the midrange/control matchups, just having the ability to be up cards/find what you are looking for in those matchups is so great in a nonblue deck.

I also wouldn't go up to 4 leylines.
My issue with Library lately is that in many of the midrange match ups these days, I'm contending with Leovold. While this deck has plenty of answers for Leovold, it's handy to be able to ignore half of his text. Brutality is a card I'm always glad to see, especially in our bad match ups.

Why not 4 Leyline?



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[CptHaddock]

My issue with Library lately is that in many of the midrange match ups these days, I'm contending with Leovold. While this deck has plenty of answers for Leovold, it's handy to be able to ignore half of his text. Brutality is a card I'm always glad to see, especially in our bad match ups.

Why not 4 Leyline?



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I've been liking brutalities as well, I can't decide if I want 2 in the main or a split between deluge and brutality. I don't think you should be that worried about Leovold, it's been very rare that I can't answer him at the same time I have a library active. At the very worst, you're not digging for a turn or two. As for the 4 leylines I don't think the increased % of having it in your opening 7 or substantially mulligans is worth for having dedicated yard hate. I would rather have other utility cards in the spot but I have lost my fair share of games because of stubbornly refusing to mulligan down to leyline so I don't really know.

Edit: With the 2 containment priests in your sideboard I certainly would not play 4 leylines.

[T-101]

I've been liking brutalities as well, I can't decide if I want 2 in the main or a split between deluge and brutality. I don't think you should be that worried about Leovold, it's been very rare that I can't answer him at the same time I have a library active. At the very worst, you're not digging for a turn or two. As for the 4 leylines I don't think the increased % of having it in your opening 7 or substantially mulligans is worth for having dedicated yard hate. I would rather have other utility cards in the spot but I have lost my fair share of games because of stubbornly refusing to mulligan down to leyline so I don't really know.

Edit: With the 2 containment priests in your sideboard I certainly would not play 4 leylines.

I think leylines are a 4 or 0 type of card. They are very good in the opener, and very bad at any other time. When I consider playing a leyline, it's because of the power it offers in the opening hand and I assume I will not cast the card. From there, it seems obvious that it's 4 or 0 to maximize the chance of getting one in the opener.

If I can't find room for 4, then I play other cards. Containment, Spellbomb, Tormod's, Grafdigger's, etc.

[apocolyps6]

3 leylines also gives reasonable percentages to mull into one. If you go down to 2 it is pretty clear something else would be better there. Obv 4 leyline is better than 3, but leyline is just about the best vanilla gy hate we can play. Everything else comes with a harsher downside.

I'm wondering if the meta allows for something like a cage instead if leyline. The fact that we can draw if off of Bob/library makes it better as a 2-of of we don't need it in the opening hand. Even playing a mix of surgical/cage/priest is better if we don't expect decks like Lands.

Given that we can Bob/library/zenith into scooze with some consistency something like nihil spellbomb or crypt isn't insane either.

Gonna have you all a rest from my Library fanboying but just about nothing can convince me to play less than 2. these days I've been front-loading the life payments a bit more against bug

[Bobmans]

4 gives about 33% in the opener and 3 about 28%.

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[T-101]

4 gives about 33% in the opener and 3 about 28%.

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I'm not a hypergeometric mathemagician, but here's what I've found.

With 4 copies in 60, there is a 33% chance you get EXACTLY 1 in the opener.

40% chance for 1 OR MORE.

- - -

Leylines are an all-or-nothing card. Sometimes they are an uncounterable, un-Decayable hammer that start working before their first upkeep... and sometimes they are an uncastable brick you rip off the top of the deck. Even if it's mathematically efficient to go for 3 (which is debatable), I feel like 3 is a "half-assed all-in."

[apocolyps6]

I'm not either, but i wrote a tool to do these calculations for me a while ago. If you have 4 leylines and are willing to go to 5 (IMO if you board in Leyline you HAVE to be willing to mull to it for the reasons already stated.) You have a 72.7% chance of seeing one. With only 3 leylines that drops to 61.9%. That's a bit over 10%. Now the question is, how much is a sideboard card worth? We are already favored without those 10% and there is a chance that that those 10% are never needed.

To look at it from another perspective, lets say we have exactly 3 slots for the problem. What do we play instead?

[bakofried]

Wait....why are we favored? The match ups I bring Leyline in for we are not favored, certainly not enough to warrant cutting my chances of seeing a game changer by 10%.

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[apocolyps6]

Sorry, was typing in a rush. Meant to say we are favored to draw it in the opener rather than not. Tho 4 Leylines is 53% over 2 games(right?) and 3 Leylines is 38% which is probably significant.

IDK, I feel like 4 slots is too much to devote to any one strategy. Blue decks have access to brainstorm/ponder so they can play a smaller number of trump cards, and most non-blue decks are either linear or have clear strengths and weaknesses. Meanwhile we are kind of a jack-of-all-trades so we end up in this situation where you want cards for every way that you can lose the game (Leyline for GY combo, canonist for Storm combo, Deluge for decks that out-creature you, Plow for decks that out-efficiency you, walkers for decks that outgrind you). Decks like Dragon stompy only lose a couple of ways, so they only can play 4 Leyline, 4 Ensnaring Bridge, 4 Sudden Shock, 3Volcanic Fallout or something of the sort. We have to take all comers, and can't really advance a proactive gameplan through whatever the opponent is doing.

Does anyone else feel similarly?

[Stuhl]

Since a long time this deck plays 3 Leylines. I think 3 is the number if you do not want commit everything to gravehate but still want a reasonable chance to draw it.

SB slots are worth a lot and by playing 3 Leylines you have one more spot.

If people want to play 4 they should play 4. But honestly, 5-10% more or less, you probably won't really play enough SB games to really feel that difference.

In my mirror match at MKM Series my opponent boarded 4 Leylines against me, I boarded my 3 against him.

In both SB games I had T1 Leyline, he never saw one...

Statistics is real, so do not give too much about numbers...

[CptHaddock]

Since a long time this deck plays 3 Leylines. I think 3 is the number if you do not want commit everything to gravehate but still want a reasonable chance to draw it.

SB slots are worth a lot and by playing 3 Leylines you have one more spot.

If people want to play 4 they should play 4. But honestly, 5-10% more or less, you probably won't really play enough SB games to really feel that difference.

In my mirror match at GP my opponent boarded 4 Leylines against me, I boarded my 3 against him.

In both SB games I had T1 Leyline, he never saw one...

Statistics is real, so do not give too much about numbers...

Speaking of numbers what is up with the 2 hymn to tourach's in your latest 5-0 list? Did you find that brutality's psuedo duress mode is not good enough?

[Stuhl]

Speaking of numbers what is up with the 2 hymn to tourach's in your latest 5-0 list? Did you find that brutality's psuedo duress mode is not good enough?

Don't know. Just experimenting with that one slot. It feels like a lot of games are about value these days. I 2for1ed myself very often with Brutality. Like, opponent brainstorming in response and only having non-instant/sorcery cards in hand. Not hitting Planeswalker, artifacts, enchantments really sucks sometimes... :(

But I think I'll just go for the 2nd Library main again.

For the SB probably Planeswalkers are a good thing again. Lots of BUG piles and the new Miracles deck is real, too.

[CptHaddock]

Don't know. Just experimenting with that one slot. It feels like a lot of games are about value these days. I 2for1ed myself very often with Brutality. Like, opponent brainstorming in response and only having non-instant/sorcery cards in hand. Not hitting Planeswalker, artifacts, enchantments really sucks sometimes... :(

But I think I'll just go for the 2nd Library main again.

For the SB probably Planeswalkers are a good thing again. Lots of BUG piles and the new Miracles deck is real, too.

Agreed on all accounts. I've been looking for that value cards in the same spot. The 2 I ended up liking the most were Grim Flayer and Brutality, I kept running into UR delver online so I stuck with Brutality. I cut my walkers initially but i'm back to Garruk and possibly Chandra if I can find some room in my sideboard. :frown:

[Richard Arschmann]

Collective Brutality exists as burn hate. You grab a burn spell, kill a weenie, and gain 2 by trading the two worst cards in your hand. The net result of this transaction is the burn deck being severely depleted of resources, which they can't easily rearm.

[bakofried]

Collective Brutality exists as burn hate. You grab a burn spell, kill a weenie, and gain 2 by trading the two worst cards in your hand. The net result of this transaction is the burn deck being severely depleted of resources, which they can't easily rearm.
It's also a removal spell that isn't dead in the SnT, ANT, or Reanimator match ups. Escalation is always optional.

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[Stuhl]

Of course, Brutality is great. I played one main, one side a few weeks ago. However, I had a lot of situations recently in which I 2for1ed myself (kill Shaman but didn't get a card to discard, due to Brainstorm). Not sure if the card still has MD potential.

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[juzamjimjams]

If you've got a clean first mode and haven't got cards that you can pitch for value (loam/pfire/land), you probably shouldn't be escalating for the reasons you've stated.

If you're able to leverage the escalation cost regardless of a brainstorm messing with the second mode, you still benefit from some information and it isn't a clean 2for1. The card has some pretty neat potential, you just shouldn't be opening yourself to be blown out by it.

[CptHaddock]

Hey there, I top 8'd the quest for power event which had 131 people. I wasn't playing a list out of the ordinary, somehow managed to avoid delver the entire day. You can watch me get slaughtered by my opponent who was on mono answers in the top 8 on the snapcasters stream (https://www.twitch.tv/videos/149453626?t=08h04m02s). I did keep a significant number of 7s which is extremely rare based on my my MTGO experience. :wink:

4 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Collective Brutality
2 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Tranquil Thicket
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire
1 Karakas
4 Mox Diamond
1 Forest
1 Badlands
1 Barren Moor
2 Bayou
1 Cabal Pit
1 Sylvan Library
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Maze of Ith
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Taiga
2 Life from the Loam
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Windswept Heath
4 Dark Confidant
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Toxic Deluge

3 Leyline of the Void
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Golgari Charm
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Containment Priest
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Collective Brutality

Matches:
2-0 TES
2-0 W/r Eldrazi
1-2 Deathblade
2-1 D&T
2-1 Maverick
2-0 Bant Stoneblade
2-1 Dredge
0-2 Waterfalls (4c Cascade)

[Digitend89]

Just watched your game and ouch waterfalls guy had everything. During game two do you remember why you didnt wastland him when he was on 3 lands, tho that probably would not have made a difference.

Also was the deathblade deck you lost to the one with 4 TNN cause I have been having trouble with that lately.

Congrats on your top 8!!

[Nocley]

Nice to see decent results with the deck, we had the stream on in the background while I was getting my butt kicked in by "miracles" in a testing session.

Though I was testing the Tireless Tracker + Tomb engine proposed a few pages back, but with some weird cuts to slot in Lilianas still. Wasn't too impressed by it - I'm going to do some testing with 1 Tomb and 1 Tracker as miser's whatever for the next few days, and then if not sold go back to stock for the GP. Tracker is insane, but the deck is too overloaded on 3 drops, and the trackers +tombs really hurt your consistency.

Few comments though:

Flex Slots - In 2 maindeck flex slots, right now I've been running 1 Hymn and 1 Blessed Alliance. Both have been great, as opposed to Collective Brutality or 3 drops like Deluge. At the very least, Blessed Alliance is something I prefer over Diabolic Edict in most cases to handle TNN-Depths, with some bonus fun against other matchups. Both of these may just end up being Hymns though, but that tempts me to end up running an Urborg again.

SB Against Blue Decks - Does anyone feel like we're having too much stuff that we want to board out against Delver decks (and the "Miracles" lists)? I'm on 1 choke right now but because my two flex slots are already kind of preboarded against them, I feel like I could be doing more against them? Is it that wrong to go back to say, Thalia in the SB hatebear spot over canonist?

Walker in the SB - Is anyone still actually excited for Garruk Relentless SB? I feel like the most common thing I want against blade/shardless/etc decks is something to kill a leovold, but still live after. Which has led me to Chandra, Torch of Defiance or Ajani Vengeant, but neither of these sound that great against the UW/Miracles lists where Garruk is indeed the nuts. Is there just not enough of those decks to warrant them over Chandra? I don't think there's room for 2 4-mana walkers in the SB.

[CptHaddock]

Just watched your game and ouch waterfalls guy had everything. During game two do you remember why you didnt wastland him when he was on 3 lands, tho that probably would not have made a difference.

Also was the deathblade deck you lost to the one with 4 TNN cause I have been having trouble with that lately.

Congrats on your top 8!!

Thanks!

Nope it was actual deathblade i.e. esper stoneblade splashing for drs. The games were super close, I mostly just kept him off mana but lost because I couldn't find a decay/rec sage for a Jitte with 10 counters on it. I was thinking about the wasteland play but the turn before he had brainstormed so I assumed that he would have been able to find another land. Maybe it was right since it forces him to wait to find a land before casting the shardless agent. I feel like the matchup isn't as bad as it looked in that match, game 1 we have fires + loam/wasteland which hit everything in their deck. Maybe I should have mulliganed more aggressively in game 2. I just played the game like he was a shardless deck that was splashing red.

[CptHaddock]

Nice to see decent results with the deck, we had the stream on in the background while I was getting my butt kicked in by "miracles" in a testing session.

Though I was testing the Tireless Tracker + Tomb engine proposed a few pages back, but with some weird cuts to slot in Lilianas still. Wasn't too impressed by it - I'm going to do some testing with 1 Tomb and 1 Tracker as miser's whatever for the next few days, and then if not sold go back to stock for the GP. Tracker is insane, but the deck is too overloaded on 3 drops, and the trackers +tombs really hurt your consistency.


I'm not a big fan of the lists that were posted on the last couple of pages. I can see an argument for not playing Liliana and depending on Deluge for a cleaner manabase but playing sol lands just seems abymsal. Tezz can sometimes do it because of the number of mana rocks they play and even then it's still shaky. I think that the "stock" list is really well positioned right now and you have a bunch of flex slots to adjust it to your metagame. Imo deluge should 100% be played in the main currently.




SB Against Blue Decks - Does anyone feel like we're having too much stuff that we want to board out against Delver decks (and the "Miracles" lists)? I'm on 1 choke right now but because my two flex slots are already kind of preboarded against them, I feel like I could be doing more against them? Is it that wrong to go back to say, Thalia in the SB hatebear spot over canonist?


What's your list looking like? So if we're talking about the stock list I don't think so. In any non RUG/UR delver matchups I board out my chalices and teegs and basically bring in more board wipes/removal. I normally do the following:

Grixis:
-4 Chalice, -1 Teeg
+1 Charm, +2 Swords, +1 Deluge, +1 Ghost Quarter, +1 Brutality

BUG:
-4 Chalice, -1 Teeg, -1 Loam/GSZ
+2 Swords, +1 Deluge, +1 Ghost Quarter, +1 Brutality, +1 Garruk

Just based on the stock list it's a favorable matchup just on the back of running 6+ removal spells and kotr. Thalia is completely defensible as well, i'm not really sure if I would bring her in against delver though.



Walker in the SB - Is anyone still actually excited for Garruk Relentless SB? I feel like the most common thing I want against blade/shardless/etc decks is something to kill a leovold, but still live after. Which has led me to Chandra, Torch of Defiance or Ajani Vengeant, but neither of these sound that great against the UW/Miracles lists where Garruk is indeed the nuts. Is there just not enough of those decks to warrant them over Chandra? I don't think there's room for 2 4-mana walkers in the SB.

I think the reason to play Garruk over the other walkers is just the manacost. It's significantly easier to a single G walker than RR or RW, I think all the others are still playable.

[apocolyps6]

I did some testing with tracker, but chickened out of the list I posted. I tested 1 tomb 1 tracker over a flex land slot and a bob.

Tomb always did a bunch of damage to me. Usually the advantage it gave also saved me dmg, but I didn't test against delver and the like, where it is probably even worse. Even in nut hands like tomb + chalice I was only really making use of tomb on turn 1.

Tracker.... Well the only time I ever zenithed for him was when opponent was representing decay and I had a land to play. And any tracker board means my mana is really taxed.

I played an EE platinum event with the flex slot as a 7th fetch and the bob slot as a bob and that felt quite good. The next thing to try might be maining the 2 deluges over pridemage and something else. But I'm just as likely to stick to this configuration for the GP

[Ephemeron]

Grixis:
-4 Chalice, -1 Teeg
+1 Charm, +2 Swords, +1 Deluge, +1 Ghost Quarter, +1 Brutality

Just based on the stock list it's a favorable matchup just on the back of running 6+ removal spells and kotr. Thalia is completely defensible as well, i'm not really sure if I would bring her in against delver though.


Coming from the Grixis side of this, I'd say definitely keep Chalice in, and least on the play. No abrupt decays means the deck can get completely wrecked by it. The amount of artifact hate is pretty skimpy in the board these days, usually just 1 Ancient Grudge. Shutting off Deathrite/Delver/all the cantrips that find Grudge is huge. If you can T1 or T2 chalice against grixis and get it to stick, you're probably like 90% to win.

I'd also board in Thalia if you had one, she makes Young Pyromancer look embarrassing (more so than his stupid haircut and Chandra cosplay already do).

[bakofried]

Coming from the Grixis side of this, I'd say definitely keep Chalice in, and least on the play. No abrupt decays means the deck can get completely wrecked by it. The amount of artifact hate is pretty skimpy in the board these days, usually just 1 Ancient Grudge. Shutting off Deathrite/Delver/all the cantrips that find Grudge is huge. If you can T1 or T2 chalice against grixis and get it to stick, you're probably like 90% to win.

I'd also board in Thalia if you had one, she makes Young Pyromancer look embarrassing (more so than his stupid haircut and Chandra cosplay already do).

While I don't know about Thalia (again, expensive removal on our end), I don't think I'd ever board out Chalice against Grixis Delver. I play fairly frequently against a local guy on Grixis Delver, and Chalice is a house against him pre and post board.

[CptHaddock]

Coming from the Grixis side of this, I'd say definitely keep Chalice in, and least on the play. No abrupt decays means the deck can get completely wrecked by it. The amount of artifact hate is pretty skimpy in the board these days, usually just 1 Ancient Grudge. Shutting off Deathrite/Delver/all the cantrips that find Grudge is huge. If you can T1 or T2 chalice against grixis and get it to stick, you're probably like 90% to win.

I'd also board in Thalia if you had one, she makes Young Pyromancer look embarrassing (more so than his stupid haircut and Chandra cosplay already do).

I can see keeping maybe 2 in on the play but in general I don't really like them. Don't get me wrong i've had games where I chalice on 1 and my opponent just concedes but in general they have so many different angles of attacks it's just hard to shut the deck down. Postboard I would rather have cards that are good in most stages of the game and not just dead draws later on. I don't really like Thalia either since she taxes your removal spells and Grixis can frequently just negate the taxes with DRS. I can see bringing her in against RUG or UR though.

[bakofried]

I can see keeping maybe 2 in on the play but in general I don't really like them. Don't get me wrong i've had games where I chalice on 1 and my opponent just concedes but in general they have so many different angles of attacks it's just hard to shut the deck down. Postboard I would rather have cards that are good in most stages of the game and not just dead draws later on. I don't really like Thalia either since she taxes your removal spells and Grixis can frequently just negate the taxes with DRS. I can see bringing her in against RUG or UR though.

If you have a spell powerful enough that it forces the opponent to concede on the spot, I don't think it's wise to board it out. I don't know why you think it's a dead draw later, either; it's not like a late game Daze or Spell Pierce. Slamming that late in the game during the topdeck war has won me several games. Shutting off their ability to toss Bolts at the dome is critical.

*Edit
Additionally, boarding out Chalices doesn't mean that the Delver player will board out Grudges; they'll just assume you haven't drawn one. In that case they might start pointing those Grudges at your Diamonds, and THAT is how I lose games against Delver: when my mana is unstable.

[rlesko]

When are you guys typically bringing in ghost quarter?

[CptHaddock]

When are you guys typically bringing in ghost quarter?

In general any deck with a few basics or a greedy manabase. I personally bring one in against elves since you need to kill cradles asap and they usually fetch out their forests anyways, i'm not sure about ANT still (I would 100% never bring them in against TES) and it's very hard to GQ out Skill and Show since if you are at that stage of the game you're probably winning anways and they can always shuffle back the lands via discarding Emrakul.


If you have a spell powerful enough that it forces the opponent to concede on the spot, I don't think it's wise to board it out. I don't know why you think it's a dead draw later, either; it's not like a late game Daze or Spell Pierce. Slamming that late in the game during the topdeck war has won me several games. Shutting off their ability to toss Bolts at the dome is critical.

*Edit
Additionally, boarding out Chalices doesn't mean that the Delver player will board out Grudges; they'll just assume you haven't drawn one. In that case they might start pointing those Grudges at your Diamonds, and THAT is how I lose games against Delver: when my mana is unstable.

Like I said I can see keeping in some number on the play. I understand that chalice is amazing against Grixis but I feel like their angles of attack are too varied to make chalice 100% reliable in games where they don't have a mono 1 drop hand. I've run into tons of situations where I am digging for answers but end up drawing chalice where any removal spell or creature would have been good enough. I would much rather be attacking their creature base where I know that I can just can overload on removal rather than rely on chalices sticking.

Most of the games that I lose aren't really to mana stability issues (although that does happen) it's more that my answers line up poorly with their threats e.g. I have a decay and fire against an Angler/TNN or just don't have an answer for a threat. If your opponent sees that they can stifle your mana via grudge wouldn't they be attacking the moxes anyways? You do save on 1 grudge activation by forcing them to hit the chalice but that just feels like more of a blowout.

[apocolyps6]

juzamjimjams wrote a pretty sweet article earlier today. (https://thesaltminesite.com/2017/06/06/putting-the-aggro-back-into-loam-naya/)

I don't think I can convince myself to play goyf but there is a lot of solid stuff in there otherwise

[juzamjimjams]

Cheers dude!

[Claymore]

I'd actually consider Kessig Wolf Run in place of Horizon Canopy. This build wants to put down soft disruption (Chalice, Teeg) and then overrun with Goyf, Knights, Vinecrasher etc. Wolf Run can crush a board stall or get through a True Name, Baleful Strix, Pyromancer tokens, Mother, etc. If Wolf Run is too expensive, then that alternate lands that activates for RG(T) to give +1/+0 and trample.

Canopy is a little redundant with the cycle lands.

[CptHaddock]

I'd actually consider Kessig Wolf Run in place of Horizon Canopy. This build wants to put down soft disruption (Chalice, Teeg) and then overrun with Goyf, Knights, Vinecrasher etc. Wolf Run can crush a board stall or get through a True Name, Baleful Strix, Pyromancer tokens, Mother, etc. If Wolf Run is too expensive, then that alternate lands that activates for RG(T) to give +1/+0 and trample.

Canopy is a little redundant with the cycle lands.

Skarrg, the Rage Pits.

I don't think that trampling over creatures is a big problem unless you are against mono TNN, you already have punishing fire to clean up most of the board and with that creature base your creatures should be significantly bigger than anything your opponent is playing. I like the manabase being better (although I think I would -1 plains, and +1 dual since you are mostly green based anyways) but my only gripe with the deck is the lack of CA engines now that Confidant/Lili aren't there.

Shifting away from black is perfectly reasonable but I think that you gotta make up for the CA that you are losing. Niklas's Bant list he posted a while he does this by adding Jaces, Cliques, increasing the number of punishing fires and playing some Dacks in the board. I feel like you can easily go up to 4 GSZ here since your creature base is entirely green sunable. The list looks like very neat though, it reminds me a lot of punishing maverick.

[bakofried]

Don't know. Just experimenting with that one slot. It feels like a lot of games are about value these days. I 2for1ed myself very often with Brutality. Like, opponent brainstorming in response and only having non-instant/sorcery cards in hand. Not hitting Planeswalker, artifacts, enchantments really sucks sometimes... :(

But I think I'll just go for the 2nd Library main again.

For the SB probably Planeswalkers are a good thing again. Lots of BUG piles and the new Miracles deck is real, too.
The interesting thing I noted about that list was the 2nd Rec Sage in the SB. I'm expecting not just a lot of Blood Moon, but Dragon Stompy at the GP, and would really like to improve that MU. Potentially, I'd remove the one copy of Chandra from the SB, but we'll see.

Sent from my SM-G920T using Tapatalk

[13b]

Cheers dude!

Is there anywhere you have vods or any matches to watch you pilot? I tried looking but was unsuccessful

[juzamjimjams]

I'd actually consider Kessig Wolf Run in place of Horizon Canopy. This build wants to put down soft disruption (Chalice, Teeg) and then overrun with Goyf, Knights, Vinecrasher etc. Wolf Run can crush a board stall or get through a True Name, Baleful Strix, Pyromancer tokens, Mother, etc. If Wolf Run is too expensive, then that alternate lands that activates for RG(T) to give +1/+0 and trample.

Canopy is a little redundant with the cycle lands.

I'm not certain I agree that Canopy is redundant with only a single other cycle land in the deck, it improves the mana of the deck, and has some good application in a list with very few sources of tangible card advantage.





I don't think that trampling over creatures is a big problem unless you are against mono TNN, you already have punishing fire to clean up most of the board and with that creature base your creatures should be significantly bigger than anything your opponent is playing.

As stated here, the creature base generally outclasses your opponents creatures (outside of TNN) to an extent that just brute forcing and causing chump blocks is usually pretty effective - at least to an extent that the lack of evasion doesn't feel hugely detrimental.




I like the manabase being better (although I think I would -1 plains, and +1 dual since you are mostly green based anyways) but my only gripe with the deck is the lack of CA engines now that Confidant/Lili aren't there.

Shifting away from black is perfectly reasonable but I think that you gotta make up for the CA that you are losing. Niklas's Bant list he posted a while he does this by adding Jaces, Cliques, increasing the number of punishing fires and playing some Dacks in the board. I feel like you can easily go up to 4 GSZ here since your creature base is entirely green sunable. The list looks like very neat though, it reminds me a lot of punishing maverick.

I have definitely not been impressed by the plains, I think I will stick with the two basics for at least the next couple weeks with the amount of Burn/Blood Moons I'm expecting to face.

Increasing GSZ sounds fantastic, I'm honestly just struggling with what to cut.

My list for testing this evening:

Lands: (27)
1 Barbarian Ring
1 Dark Depths
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Forest
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Plains
2 Plateau
2 Savannah
1 Taiga
1 Thespian’s Stage
1 Tranquil Thicket
4 Wasteland
3 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills

Creatures: (13)
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Renegade Rallier

Non-Creature Spells: (20)
2 Council’s Judgment
2 Green Sun’s Zenith
2 Life from the Loam
4 Punishing Fire
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
2 Sylvan Library

Sideboard: (15)
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Containment Priest
1 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Faerie Macabre
1 Reclamation Sage
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale


Trying to get closer to the ground with this list, hoping that cutting big daddy Centaur Vinecrasher pays off.
Still need to try Sanctum Prelate and Blessed Alliance.


Is there anywhere you have vods or any matches to watch you pilot? I tried looking but was unsuccessful

I have unfortunately not made it in front of camera yet, if I do so this weekend I'll make sure to post here. I will be putting together the deck on MODO shortly after GP Sydney (as long as funds don't become an issue) and as soon as I can I'll be looking at producing video content.

[13b]

Skarrg, the Rage Pits.

I don't think that trampling over creatures is a big problem unless you are against mono TNN, you already have punishing fire to clean up most of the board and with that creature base your creatures should be significantly bigger than anything your opponent is playing. I like the manabase being better (although I think I would -1 plains, and +1 dual since you are mostly green based anyways) but my only gripe with the deck is the lack of CA engines now that Confidant/Lili aren't there.

Shifting away from black is perfectly reasonable but I think that you gotta make up for the CA that you are losing. Niklas's Bant list he posted a while he does this by adding Jaces, Cliques, increasing the number of punishing fires and playing some Dacks in the board. I feel like you can easily go up to 4 GSZ here since your creature base is entirely green sunable. The list looks like very neat though, it reminds me a lot of punishing maverick.

Assuming you are referring to a bant blade that dropped black, do you have a link to that ?

[rlesko]

Assuming you are referring to a bant blade that dropped black, do you have a link to that ?

He is referring to a loam shell that Niklas played. It drops black to play blue for Jaces, Cliques, and Flusterstorms.

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/this-week-in-legacy-mkm-frankfurt-and-the-first-week-without-top

[Aberosh1819]

Good video here of Bonde playing Loam in the Legacy Premier League with an interesting build of Loam: https://youtu.be/okCZtJz7yTk

4 Fires main
26 lands, no Pit
Library in board
No grave hate

I suspect the last bit is due to expected lists from his opponent, but seems ballsy to me.

Thoughts on his approach?

[apocolyps6]

I definitely think those games are worth watching. As to the list, it is clear that he was prepared for a narrower range of decks and that's reflected by the 75. I'm don't think any of it is a particularly strong endorsement either way.

[maharis]

I've been intrigued by Collective Brutality & Loam for a while and wanted to do something different before I spend the rest of the week playing DRS into TNN, so I brought a junk list to a win a box yesterday and finished top 4. I basically took the first list I found and cut the red for Brutality and some other utility lands. My theory was that the mana is better, which makes more utility lands playable, Cabal Pit is enough for repeatable removal, and we are in a position to get a lot of value off the escalate.

4 Dark Confidant
3 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Grim Flayer
1 Dryad Arbor

4 Chalice OTV
4 Mox diamond

3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Collective Brutality
3 Abrupt Decay
2 GSZ
2 Loam
1 Toxic Deluge

4 verdant catacombs
4 wasteland
2 windswept heath
2 bayou
2 scrubland
1 savannah
1 forest
1 swamp
1 cabal pit
1 thespian's stage
1 dark depths
1 karakas
1 ghost quarter
1 maze of ith
1 tranquil thicket
1 barren moor
1 riftstone portal

4 leyline of the void
3 thalia, guardian of thraben
3 swords to plowshares
2 ethersworn canonist
1 golgari charm
1 reclamation sage
1 sylvan library

Rd 1 storm -- I know he's on storm, he doesn't know what i'm playing and assumes UBx midrange. I lose die roll, we both mull and I keep chalice, brutality, a couple lands, maybe a zenith and find a mox diamond on top. So here's a puzzle: He probes me and then preordains keeping both on top. What would you do on my turn (drawing the mox diamond)? FWIW, I lost the first game then won the next two with chalice into thalia and chalice into marit lage.

Rd 2 turbo depths -- same deal where I know what he's on and he assumes I'm on some blue pile. I was really hoping to knight up my stage when he played his own depths but it didn't line up that way. I wasted/GQ'd him out of a couple games and won the round

Rd 3 infect -- this is where it hurts to not have punishing fire, brutality is bad against Inkmoth Nexus. I got turn 3'd in the first game and then I don't think I boarded right. I brought in all my hatebears, charm, and stp and boarded out all chalices and bobs and I think teeg. my thinking was that unless I have chalice t1 it might not do anything, because they have a window to get down elf, or even if I do they can win with nexus/agent & invigorate/become immense. plus I want the STPs and they are dead under Chalice even if I need them for one of the non-elf creatures. I played a t1 Thalia and felt good but he drew three hierarchs and a blighted agent and I couldn't find STP or brutality or charm.

T8 deathblade -- i think he won game 1 with liliana and jace in play and I just gave up, but in game 2 & 3 the mana denial went a long way and just as he was about to turn the corner in g3 I found an 11/11 knight that he had to STP then I assembled the combo which also ate an STP. as soon as I found a loam for the combo he scooped with me at 40+.

top 4 split from there. I liked how the deck worked but honestly feel like the brutalities could've just been hymns and been just as good. of course, that doesn't remove creatures. that may have been matchup + variance. what really seemed to pay off vs. other times I've played this deck with PF was being able to play the DD combo without it being awkward, having Ghost Quarter, and even having Riftstone Portal to tap depths for mana vs. storm to transform itself. i plan to run this at some side events at vegas, though I am extremely tempted to play it in the main event as well...

[CptHaddock]

Rd 1 storm -- I know he's on storm, he doesn't know what i'm playing and assumes UBx midrange. I lose die roll, we both mull and I keep chalice, brutality, a couple lands, maybe a zenith and find a mox diamond on top. So here's a puzzle: He probes me and then preordains keeping both on top. What would you do on my turn (drawing the mox diamond)? FWIW, I lost the first game then won the next two with chalice into thalia and chalice into marit lage.


This is a tricky one. The lines are either chalice for 1 or chalice for 0 and collective brutality, I guess you can make an argument for getting an arbor/shaman but if we manage to survive a turn without losing our GSZ we just instant win. My opponent gitaxian probing me to see a hand like that and keeping on top with preordain either means that chalice on 1 isn't going to stop them from going off anytime soon or they're getting ready for the long game. I would chalice for 0 and collective brutality (maybe pitching a land to gain 2 life to force to storm 1 more) here but I think that the chalice for 1 play is also defensible here.

What did you end up doing and what did they end up having?


Assuming you are referring to a bant blade that dropped black, do you have a link to that ?

Yeah see below. I think with miracles out of the format it's slightly worse, but I might be wrong. I've been working on a BUGr list getting rid of the white entirely and playing Leovold/TNN/Clique as your 3s but it just feels like something is missing. It is really fun dazing your opponent's force on chalice though. :cool:



4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Vendilion Clique

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Life from the Loam
1 Sylvan Library

4 Punishing Fire
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Blessed Alliance
1 Councils Judgement

4 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice of the Void

2 Flusterstorm
1 Daze

4 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
1 Arid Mesa
2 Tundra
2 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island
1 Savannah
1 Plateau
1 Plains
1 Irrigated Farmland
1 Lonely Sandbar
1 Maze of Ith
1 Karakas
4 Wasteland
3 Grove of the Burnwillows

SB
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Meddling Mage
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Containment Priest
2 Wear//Tear
1 Telemin Performance
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Flusterstorm
1 Firespout
1 Dack Fayden



I have definitely not been impressed by the plains, I think I will stick with the two basics for at least the next couple weeks with the amount of Burn/Blood Moons I'm expecting to face.

Increasing GSZ sounds fantastic, I'm honestly just struggling with what to cut.

I can't fault you for that, I don't mind losing to moon but hate losing to burn. I put together your list on MTGO (minus the basic plains :tongue:) and I ran into the same exact problem for what to cut. I will get back to you when I get the time to test it out some more. >_>

[maharis]

This is a tricky one. The lines are either chalice for 1 or chalice for 0 and collective brutality, I guess you can make an argument for getting an arbor/shaman but if we manage to survive a turn without losing our GSZ we just instant win. My opponent gitaxian probing me to see a hand like that and keeping on top with preordain either means that chalice on 1 isn't going to stop them from going off anytime soon or they're getting ready for the long game. I would chalice for 0 and collective brutality (maybe pitching a land to gain 2 life to force to storm 1 more) here but I think that the chalice for 1 play is also defensible here.

What did you end up doing and what did they end up having?

I came to the same conclusion as you and played collective brutality first. He revealed: LED, Infernal Tutor, Cabal Ritual, Ad Nauseum, and a couple lands.

Now what?



Ehh I'll just post it now. I took Infernal Tutor, then Chalice 0. This was a mistake, but it's because I didn't think about chalice 0 (to nuke the LED in hand) until after I already picked the card.

I think I should've taken the Ad Naus then Chalice 0. I don't remember what he did next turn but the turn after he managed to thresh up for Cabal Rit->Ad Naus and then won by finding a couple rituals into dark petition. (He also ran a bunch of 0 cost artifacts into my Chalice to build storm count).

I guess I'm not sure if my line was bad or he just had a good hand. Infernal without LED in that situation isn't very scary, if he spends his next turn getting another Cabal Ritual he still has to find a way to make red for PIF or find another business spell (which of course was a couple cards down) and in that time I can draw a lot of other disruptive cards.

I wasn't able to GSZ because I used both my lands on turn 1 and the next land I drew was Barren Moor.

[Claymore]

I think Chalice on 0 was fine, but agree that the better pick was probably Ad Nauseam, or possibly Cabal Ritual. By taking out AN and eliminating LED, they have to play out their whole hand naturally to use Infernal Tutor to get Past in Flames, then play out their graveyard and IT to fetch Tendrils. That could give you time to get Teeg or a DRS online.

Taking the Cabal Ritual would need them to draw into probably just one Ritual to fire off AN, but be limited on mana with just one Dark Ritual, so they need to draw more lands or wait to draw more rituals. They would need at least:

- 4 lands plus Dark Ritual to kill with AN (make 5 mana, 1 land open, draw into at least 2 more rituals plus either Dark Petition or a bunch of LEDs/Petals plus Tendrils itself)
- 3 Lands, Threshhold, and Cabal Ritual (same as above)

But if he kept Dark Ritual on Top, he could draw it, next turn Infernal for a Dark Ritual, then go off with 3 lands and 2 dark rituals -> AN.

That's my take on it at least, as a non-storm player.

[ironclad8690]

Hey guys,

I just bought back into this deck on modo again, and I was hoping you could provide me with:

1) a "stock" list

2) Common cards to board out whether vs combo/fair/delver/control. Sometimes it's not intuitive whether you will need chalice still or not.

Thanks <3

[LOLWut]

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/attachments/163/749/636329523577535185.jpg

[apocolyps6]

Crucible dude seems pretty cool. Definitely something to pick up for the maybe-board.

[Claymore]

I love it. Probably still as a one-of, and maybe some creature recursion to grab it, but seems like a huge card to me. Supplements the Loam plan without having to give up your drawstep or mana each turn, can be flexible with how many due to GSZ. Gives an alternative to Loam in case it gets Surgicaled.

[juzamjimjams]

I can't fault you for that, I don't mind losing to moon but hate losing to burn. I put together your list on MTGO (minus the basic plains :tongue:) and I ran into the same exact problem for what to cut. I will get back to you when I get the time to test it out some more. >_>

How's it gone so far? I came 25th out of 90 players at Australian Eternal Masters last weekend with the list I posted earlier in this thread. Started the day 4-1 and was running really hot, winning rounds 3, 4 and 5 2-0. Eventually in round 6 I punted against Shardless in G3, something I'll try to put on the fact that I had 3 hours sleep, but eh a punt is a punt.

Overall the deck has felt super smooth, there's definitely tuning to be done though. My next article for the Salt Mine will give a proper rundown of my tournament, and I'll look at some of the more common match ups.

Would anyone be interested in joining a 4c Loam specific Facebook group? A couple of the other communities have these as an easier, less formal means of bouncing ideas off of eachother. If you're keen, chuck me a PM and I'll send you the URL.

[Bobmans]

Overall the deck has felt super smooth, there's definitely tuning to be done though. My next article for the Salt Mine will give a proper rundown of my tournament, and I'll look at some of the more common match ups.

Would anyone be interested in joining a 4c Loam specific Facebook group? A couple of the other communities have these as an easier, less formal means of bouncing ideas off of eachother. If you're keen, chuck me a PM and I'll send you the URL.

Awesome, looking forward to the article. Currently i am still on a depate if i want to keep this deck as my main competative deck or switch to combo.

Is it also ok to consider this post as the PM?

[CptHaddock]

How's it gone so far? I came 25th out of 90 players at Australian Eternal Masters last weekend with the list I posted earlier in this thread. Started the day 4-1 and was running really hot, winning rounds 3, 4 and 5 2-0. Eventually in round 6 I punted against Shardless in G3, something I'll try to put on the fact that I had 3 hours sleep, but eh a punt is a punt.

Overall the deck has felt super smooth, there's definitely tuning to be done though. My next article for the Salt Mine will give a proper rundown of my tournament, and I'll look at some of the more common match ups.

Would anyone be interested in joining a 4c Loam specific Facebook group? A couple of the other communities have these as an easier, less formal means of bouncing ideas off of eachother. If you're keen, chuck me a PM and I'll send you the URL.

It's been a nice change of pace from 4c Loam, having a goyf to drop/GSZ for late game has been significantly better than chump blocking Anglers with confidants. I do really miss having the Leylines though, Macabres while good haven't really been as game ending as Leylines. I might try some tormod's crypts and if that doesn't work go back to playing Leylines.

Only other problems that I have had are the same as 4c loam where I end up drawing lands when I need spells and spells when I need lands but I guess that is the price of not playing cantrips. :tongue:


Hey guys,

I just bought back into this deck on modo again, and I was hoping you could provide me with:

1) a "stock" list

2) Common cards to board out whether vs combo/fair/delver/control. Sometimes it's not intuitive whether you will need chalice still or not.

Thanks <3

Niklas's list is probably still a good starting point. You have a bunch of flex spots to play around with too, i'd recommend a pit (there seem to be way more D&T players on mtgo now) and maybe a deluge main for the school of TNNs that are out and about. I think that Stuhl's or Mat's lists are still good starting points if you want something a little more up to date.

[ironclad8690]

Niklas's list is probably still a good starting point. You have a bunch of flex spots to play around with too, i'd recommend a pit (there seem to be way more D&T players on mtgo now) and maybe a deluge main for the school of TNNs that are out and about. I think that Stuhl's or Mat's lists are still good starting points if you want something a little more up to date.

Awesome thanks.

I have been playing this list:

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/673459#online

and so far I am 8-3 in matches on mtgo. I lost to BUG Control, Painter, and BR Reanimator, with wins against BR Reanimator x3, Death and Taxes, Burn, Grixis Delver, and New Miracles.

I feel as though the positioning of the deck is better than it was with top in the format, more decks that get hosed by chalice @ 1 flying around.

[iatee]

Crucible dude seems pretty cool. Definitely something to pick up for the maybe-board.

I think you guys should be more excited about this dude. This is a very powerful magic card and it fits in super well with everything this deck is doing. With GSZ you have 5 copies. KotR Wasteland-locking somebody came with some cost to your own manabase before now. I can't imagine not playing one in the main.

[CptHaddock]

I think you guys should be more excited about this dude. This is a very powerful magic card and it fits in super well with everything this deck is doing. With GSZ you have 5 copies. KotR Wasteland-locking somebody came with some cost to your own manabase before now. I can't imagine not playing one in the main.

I 100% agree although most lists don't run 4 GSZs like Maverick. I can see where apocolyps6 is coming, he tends to play a more conservative list than most.

[apocolyps6]

I'm not unexcited, I'm cautiously optimistic. The pros are pretty clear. The cons, IMO are that Crucible Dude is a grave-deponent 3drop, which puts him in competition with Knight. Not in deck building obviously, but in situations where you are zenithing for 3 or have both in hand. I think most of the time I'd prefer to have a knight. I've played other zenithable 3drops like Leovold/Courser/Tracker before, and I almost never ended up picking them over Knight.

That being said, I'm going to swap him in for a bob as soon as I can, and hope that my concerns are proven wrong.

[Jo4source]

How's it gone so far? I came 25th out of 90 players at Australian Eternal Masters last weekend with the list I posted earlier in this thread. Started the day 4-1 and was running really hot, winning rounds 3, 4 and 5 2-0. Eventually in round 6 I punted against Shardless in G3, something I'll try to put on the fact that I had 3 hours sleep, but eh a punt is a punt.

Overall the deck has felt super smooth, there's definitely tuning to be done though. My next article for the Salt Mine will give a proper rundown of my tournament, and I'll look at some of the more common match ups.

Would anyone be interested in joining a 4c Loam specific Facebook group? A couple of the other communities have these as an easier, less formal means of bouncing ideas off of eachother. If you're keen, chuck me a PM and I'll send you the URL.

I'm down for a FB Group. I asked stihl(guy that top 8 the mkm event) he felt 4color loam dose not have enough of a following.

[juzamjimjams]

I'm down for a FB Group. I asked stihl(guy that top 8 the mkm event) he felt 4color loam dose not have enough of a following.

I can't really see how you can make a following without being willing to promote it.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1598499410162313/

[Aberosh1819]

Best of luck to everyone at the GP today!

[o_boogie]

Over the last three weekly legacy events I am 9-2-1. The deck has exceeded expectations and of course is a blast to play. Here is the list:

4 verdant catacombs
2 windswept heath
2 bayou
1 badlands
1 savannah
1 scrubland
1 taiga
1 forest
4 wasteland
3 grove of the burnwillows
1 karakas
1 maze of ith
1 barren moor
1 tranquil thicket
1 dark depths
1 thespian's stage

4 dark confidant
4 knight of the reliquary
1 dryad arbor
1 gaddock teeg
1 scavenging ooze

4 chalice of the void
4 mox diamond

3 liliana of the veil

3 abrupt decay
3 punishing fire
2 green sun's zenith
2 life from the loam
1 sylvan library
1 toxic deluge

sideboard:
3 leyline of the void
2 thoughtseize
2 ethersworn canonist
2 swords to plowshares
2 golgari charm
1 garruk relentless
1 reclamation sage
1 toxic deluge
1 collective brutality

Matchups:
Esper Stoneblade - W - 2-0
Elves - W - 2-0
Nic Fit -W - 2-0
Death and Taxes - W - 2-0
Grixis Delver - W - 2-1
Noble Bant - W - 2-1
Team America - W - 2-1
ANT - W - 2-1
Topless Miracles - W 2-1
ANT - L - 0-2
Dark Maverick - L - 0-2

I am aware of the recent slant toward Ghost Quarter and Cabal Pit over Dark Depths combo, but I prefer the latter. I understand that occasionally having Dark Depths in hand can be annoying, but the amount of free wins it generates is worth that downside. Personally, when I stick a Knight I would rather have a tutorable win rather than a tutorable 5th Wasteland or creature removal; the deck is already flush with answers. I have gotten out of many sticky situations with the combo where GQ/CP would not have made a difference, such as flying over a bunch of Elves gumming up the board, racing an ANT opponent, and ignoring a True-Name with equipment.

I am not sure whether Ramunap Excavator is viable in this deck, but I am going to start testing it by cutting one Dark Confidant for it. Having a tutorable quasi-Loam seems reasonable.

[Digitend89]

How did we do my fellow lands players :cool:?

[MatsOle]

How did we do my fellow lands players :cool:?

7-2 with no byes, :/

[ironclad8690]

7-2 with no byes, :/

Day 2 is when you'll face all the decks on modo that you're used to, and you'll crush them all and top 8 :cool:

Glad to see you played loam. I saw your name on the standings and was wondering if you were on this or d&t

[apocolyps6]

I got nicfitted out of the GP on day 1.

[Rockman000]

10-4-1 no byes. Lost to BR reanimator, Czech Pile, Noble Fish, and Burn. If anyone wants to hangout for some casual games and discussion, hit me up.

[Aberosh1819]

Scrubbed out against a pair of UW Stoneblade decks after an interesting UB Eldrazi build pushed me into the draw bracket.

Things didn't go well for me, but I am now firmly in the Ajani camp after running him in GPTs on Wednesday and the card being an MVP all day on Thursday. If only he was good against Batterskull on True-Name.

[juzamjimjams]

Scrubbed out against a pair of UW Stoneblade decks after an interesting UB Eldrazi build pushed me into the draw bracket.

Things didn't go well for me, but I am now firmly in the Ajani camp after running him in GPTs on Wednesday and the card being an MVP all day on Thursday. If only he was good against Batterskull on True-Name.

Vengeant?

[maharis]

I didn't play this in the main event but I did play the junk loam list in a few side events to mostly subpar results. However, I do think there is some merit to the discussion. I'll just run through all the rounds that I played. There were some changes I made throughout the weekend; most notably playing vindicate in the last version over 1 decay 1 lily and moving sweepers to the side. played a second cabal pit as well

Miracles W 2-1, in the game he won he got gideon ally of zendikar
Elves L 1-2, just couldn't put it together in game 3 after winning game 2 on the back of t1 canonist

Grixis Delver L 1-2, g2 he forced my golgari charm that would've cleared his board, g3 i mulled to 5 but had t1 thalia which ate a force, t2 chalice ate a force and then he drew better than me because his deck had 18 lands not 26
Shardless W 2-0 g1 wastelock g2 marit lage
Burn L 0-2 I died to Flame Rift twice with marit lage in play. g2 i had chalice on 1 and he had price, price, rift bolt, rift bolt, flame rift

Storm W 2-0, g1 i was on the draw with t1 chalice 0 and chalice 1, but he duressed my mox diamond, then i drew another one and made the play. vindicated basic swamp then GSZ for teeg and he conceded with no permanents in play. g2 i had the same opening turn, he gripped the chalice for 1 but i had wasteland into another chalice. luck > skill
BUG delver L 0-2, honestly i just got owned by hymn in these games, i don't know what to say
Miracles L 1-2, he had mentor which i never saw in the first miracles match and it made a huge difference especially since i moved sweepers to the side so g1 had 0 outs
Grixis Delver L 0-2 just another miserable lose die roll vs. delver match

honestly I don't feel like I missed punishing fire much unless you want to assume I always would have it and grove when I need it. I lost a game against the BUG deck where he couldn't stick anything through my cabal pit recursion anyway and i had vindicate for Gurmag Angler (I think i lost to TNN) and I imagine pit + loam is basically the same odds as grove + fire. going wide is a problem, i thought about buying a tabernacle but... yeah. I'd be interested to know how other people did vs. the DRS/Delver decks as I expected a better matchup but it was just miserable every time. vindicating basic island vs. miracles also felt outstanding.

if I had to pick a card I wanted to draw all the time... it would be Painful Truths. Or maybe sylvan library I guess. Just something so when we are seeing 1 card a turn and the other decks are seeing 4-5 with cantrips we can keep up, especially given the high land count. I had my loams extracted a lot. There's only two but just knowing stuff is gone is so miserable.

[Stuhl]

Hi everyone,

I recently tried some different kind of Aggro Loam. I designed it to crush the annoying Grixis lists :D

4 Dark Confidant
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Grim Flayer
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
2 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Life from the Loam
2 Collective Brutality

4 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Forest
1 Barren Moor
1 Tranquil Thicket
1 Karakas
2 Ghost Quarter
2 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
2 Scrubland
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Cabal Pit
1 Maze of Ith
1 Volrath's Stronghold


SB:
2 Thoughtseize
2 Containment Priest
3 Leyline of the Void
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Reclamation Sage
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Centaur Vinecrasher


As I played Maverick a long time I really missed the Thalia opening hands which are so often dominant along side Wasteland. Yet, Chalice and Mox are such strong openings that I don't want to miss them either.

So my thoughts are: Why not playing all of it?

Of course Thalia limits some of the classic Aggro Loam cards like PFire and Lili. I decided to cut red as it is only there for PFire. I also cut Lilis as they are so mana intense an demand BB.
Brutality kind of exchanges the PFires as someone suggested earlier in the thread. I play a full playset of Decay as it is the best way to play around Daze and kill anoying Shamans in the early game.

Playing 4 Bobs, 4 Thalia, 4 KotRs and one Grim Flayer makes one single Cavern of Souls (on human) legit. Also, Volrath's Stronghold is a great card to regain value. Playing Thalia suggests more offensive play so Grim Flayer takes the spot of Sylvan Library.

With 4 Chalice, 4 Bob and 4 Thalia nearly any Mox hand is super strong as we more or less always have a 2 drop to play.

2 Ghost Quarters along 2 Loams make sure we always have some lands to destroy. Maybe it's better to play 1 GQ and 3 Loams? Not sure about these small adjustments yet.

I played 4-1 in my first league with the deck and it feels super strong. I'm not sure about specific slots, sometimes the huge colorless mana base was a problem. However, not playing cards like Lili surround this problem little bit.

If you deploy an early Thalia followed by a Bob or KotR closes out games very fast. Cards like Fire and Ice or Forked Bolt hurt really much sometimes. Howver, these cards are rarely played.

With a deck like this some MUs change. The combo MU is super strong. However, the Elves MU gets little worse MD.

I just started to test the list but I feel really (dark) confidant about the direction. It seems greedy in the first spot but the hands seem to be really consistent in its function.

[Nocley]

Hi everyone,

I recently tried some different kind of Aggro Loam. I designed it to crush the annoying Grixis lists :D

4 Dark Confidant
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Grim Flayer
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
2 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Life from the Loam
2 Collective Brutality

4 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Forest
1 Barren Moor
1 Tranquil Thicket
1 Karakas
2 Ghost Quarter
2 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
2 Scrubland
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Cabal Pit
1 Maze of Ith
1 Volrath's Stronghold


SB:
2 Thoughtseize
2 Containment Priest
3 Leyline of the Void
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Reclamation Sage
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Centaur Vinecrasher


Playing 4 Bobs, 4 Thalia, 4 KotRs and one Grim Flayer makes one single Cavern of Souls (on human) legit. Also, Volrath's Stronghold is a great card to regain value. Playing Thalia suggests more offensive play so Grim Flayer takes the spot of Sylvan Library.

With 4 Chalice, 4 Bob and 4 Thalia nearly any Mox hand is super strong as we more or less always have a 2 drop to play.

2 Ghost Quarters along 2 Loams make sure we always have some lands to destroy. Maybe it's better to play 1 GQ and 3 Loams? Not sure about these small adjustments yet.

I played 4-1 in my first league with the deck and it feels super strong. I'm not sure about specific slots, sometimes the huge colorless mana base was a problem. However, not playing cards like Lili surround this problem little bit.

If you deploy an early Thalia followed by a Bob or KotR closes out games very fast. Cards like Fire and Ice or Forked Bolt hurt really much sometimes. Howver, these cards are rarely played.

With a deck like this some MUs change. The combo MU is super strong. However, the Elves MU gets little worse MD.

I just started to test the list but I feel really (dark) confidant about the direction. It seems greedy in the first spot but the hands seem to be really consistent in its function.

Always interesting to see new approaches to this. Do you think Canonist in the board with the newly freed slots is a good possibility for elves if that's a matchup that you fear? Same with TNN - I'm not seeing much more than the 2 -1/-1 effects SB, is the goal just to race it?

You mention concerns with the manabase, Can we not fit the combo still, especially without red if we're still having such a heavy reliance on black? Especially if we're just racing a bunch of decks now.

Volrath's is definitely my favorite card to see back, I always had concerns with losing creatures and being unable to get them back.

[Stuhl]

Well, the DD combo might indeed be a thing in there.
I think Elves shouldn't be too bad as Chalice still does a lot here. Canonist and Containment Priest are still VIPs against Elves. Lili wasn't that strong either.
My thoughts to TNN: These decks usually struggle with Thalia. The idea is to fight their mana base while deploying creatures like Bob or KotR which they need to handle.
Also I don't play a lot against TNN these days. More against Angler.

Yeah, but as I said without Lili and PFire the decks shifts little bit and plays differently.

This list is just a first attempt. I just felt like I want to play Maverick again but keep the upside of Mox and Chalice :D.

The reason behind Volraths is also to gain some value out of the Loam engine. Finding PFire always is one part of the reason to dredge. With Volrath you can now find creatures to use by dredging Loam. It is slow often there is a spot to use it. Especially with a KotR.

Maybe Vinecrasher Centaur also has MD potential in a list like this. Maybe in the spot of the 4th Thalia.

[Pilhas]

Well, the DD combo might indeed be a thing in there.
I think Elves shouldn't be too bad as Chalice still does a lot here. Canonist and Containment Priest are still VIPs against Elves. Lili wasn't that strong either.
My thoughts to TNN: These decks usually struggle with Thalia. The idea is to fight their mana base while deploying creatures like Bob or KotR which they need to handle.
Also I don't play a lot against TNN these days. More against Angler.

Yeah, but as I said without Lili and PFire the decks shifts little bit and plays differently.

This list is just a first attempt. I just felt like I want to play Maverick again but keep the upside of Mox and Chalice :D.

The reason behind Volraths is also to gain some value out of the Loam engine. Finding PFire always is one part of the reason to dredge. With Volrath you can now find creatures to use by dredging Loam. It is slow often there is a spot to use it. Especially with a KotR.

Maybe Vinecrasher Centaur also has MD potential in a list like this. Maybe in the spot of the 4th Thalia.

That mana base :cry::cry:

Cutting the red should make it better... My attempt to contribute.
27 Lands is too much if no DD is around.
Too much colorless around and not enough basics



4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath(Maybe split with Marsh Flats)
1 Forest
1 Swamp
2 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah (Still the worst dual in the deck)

1 Barren Moor
1 Tranquil Thicket
1 Karakas
1 Cavern of Souls (Like it!)
1 Cabal Pit
1 Maze of Ith

4 Wasteland
2 Ghost Quarter

1 Dryad Arbor


In case you want the DD+Stage combo I would advise to either put DD in SB and swap a GQ for the Stage or both GQ for the combo.

----------

Just has a fun contrast, this is my list from GP Paris:
(Was new to Legacy so did not have a lot of cards. BUG Delver was on high and every1 was using their confidants)

2x Barren Moor
2x Bayou
1x Cabal Pit
1x Cavern of Souls
1x Dark Depths
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Forest
1x Karakas
1x Maze of Ith
2x Scrubland
1x Thespian's Stage
2x Tranquil Thicket
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Wasteland

1x Gaddock Teeg
4x Knight of the Reliquary
2x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Sylvan Safekeeper
2x Green Sun's Zenith
2x Hymn to Tourach
4x Life from the Loam
1x Maelstrom Pulse
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Mox Diamond
2x Sylvan Library
3x Abrupt Decay
3x Liliana of the Veil


Sideboard (15)

1x Bojuka Bog
2x Choke
3x Engineered Plague
1x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Golgari Charm
1x Hymn to Tourach
1x Krosan Grip
1x Massacre
2x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1x Toxic Deluge

[Aberosh1819]

Vengeant?

Yes, Vengeant. Sorry for the delay!

Also, it may be worth checking out this report (http://www.buglands.com/event-results/16th-place-at-grand-prix-las-vegas-tournament-recap-plus-4-0-legacy-double-up/) from a BUG Loam/Lands player. He made top 16, and there are pieces / parts here which we have seen crop up with slightly more frequency in the past weeks. Clearly this is a very different deck than our One True Love, but it has me thinking.

[Stuhl]

Cutting the red should make it better... My attempt to contribute.
27 Lands is too much if no DD is around.
Too much colorless around and not enough basics

Actually 27 lands including Dryad Arbor is pretty usual. It's 26 mana producing lands without Arbor and we always want to throw something into Chalice. With DD combo it is more like 27 lands + Arbor as DD is not really treated as a land.

[CptHaddock]

Yes, Vengeant. Sorry for the delay!

Also, it may be worth checking out this report (http://www.buglands.com/event-results/16th-place-at-grand-prix-las-vegas-tournament-recap-plus-4-0-legacy-double-up/) from a BUG Loam/Lands player. He made top 16, and there are pieces / parts here which we have seen crop up with slightly more frequency in the past weeks. Clearly this is a very different deck than our One True Love, but it has me thinking.

I think that a BUGr list could potentially be viable, I threw something up a while back but never had the chance to play/test it. I do like his idea of pernicious deed though, that actually seems like a better board wipe than Golgari Charm/Toxic Deluge in this build.

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wasteland
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Karakas
2 Sylvan Library
3 Punishing Fire
1 Cabal Pit
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Mox Diamond
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
4 Dark Confidant
1 Island
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
4 Polluted Delta
1 Bayou
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Lonely Sandbar
2 Life from the Loam
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Barren Moor
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Cephalid Coliseum

1 Telemin Performance
1 Dack Fayden
2 Krosan Grip
2 Golgari Charm
2 Flusterstorm
3 Leyline of the Void
3 Thoughtseize
1 Diabolic Edict

[apocolyps6]

If only Deed didn't blow up our Mox/Chalice/everything :(

[CptHaddock]

If only Deed didn't blow up our Mox/Chalice/everything :(

If only there was a way you could play around your own board wipes. :(

[Ephemeron]

If only there was a way you could play around your own board wipes. :(

Those are cards you always play on turn 1-2 though, well before you'd cast or even need a Deed. You have to slow yourself down too much to play around it. Deed just isn't good in this deck.

[apocolyps6]

Right, no way in hell am I gonna not play some of the best cards in the deck just in case I draw a board wipe. The solution is either to not play a card that hurts you more than most decks, or to play nic fit instead. I guess I could see it out of the board for the GBx midrange mirror, but our curve makes it not all that effective.

If you notice, Baxter dropped his moxen to play deed.

[CptHaddock]

Those are cards you always play on turn 1-2 though, well before you'd cast or even need a Deed. You have to slow yourself down too much to play around it. Deed just isn't good in this deck.


Right, no way in hell am I gonna not play some of the best cards in the deck just in case I draw a board wipe. The solution is either to not play a card that hurts you more than most decks, or to play nic fit instead. I guess I could see it out of the board for the GBx midrange mirror, but our curve makes it not all that effective.

If you notice, Baxter dropped his moxen to play deed.

I get it, chalice and mox diamond are important cards in this deck and you probably don't want to be destroying your expensive cardboard when you play. I'm not saying that the deed is 100% a replacement for deluge or charm, just that it has the potential to be way better. Just looking at the DTB section the only matchups where I can see deed being worse is against D&T (since it can get revokered), elves (you obviously want chalice on 1 and a board wipe here) and UR Delver/Grixis Delver (You probably don't want to be deluging at all in the UR matchup and charm is pretty useless unless they're playing pyromancer). I still don't like chalice in the grixis delver matchup but you probably don't want to be losing chalice. Past those decks what are other decks where you want both Chalice and Deed? Chalice comes out in nearly every BUG matchup and (imo) against the 4c Control variants/Deathblade/Bant/Etc. It's okay to lose a mox diamond at the stages of the game where deed really comes into play, that's kind of the point of playing board wipes. Golgari Charm kills Dryad Arbor and Bob and Toxic Deluge has the potential to kill most of the creatures in the deck, you still play those right?

I don't know his thought process but I don't think that is the reason that he dropped his moxen. Just looking at his results with the deck for the last couple of years it seems more like he realized that Mox Diamond and Brainstorm are pretty bad in the same deck and swapped out the diamonds for DRS and saw that deck where loam can be either your primary or backup strategy deed seemed like a good board wipe. I'm sure you can ask any Nic Fit player, it's not that hard to hold threats in your hand or only deed for 1-2 to wipe your opponent's board but not yours.

[hovercraft]

Having blue and counterspells allows you to not play chalice+mox. If you aren't playing blue, you need the Chalice+mox to gain momentum.

[apocolyps6]

I think we really should not be comparing the way that Deed works in Nic Fit to the way it will work here. That whole deck is designed to work with deed. Most of their threats dodge it with their CMC, and veterans are designed to be sacrifices. The deck can also easily play and pop it in the same turn. Meanwhile, we will probably have to play it out one turn and then hope to dodge decay to use it the turn after. How often do you have a spare 6 mana? I think Leo/TNN are big enough actors that we want to be considering them when estimating the activation on Deed.

What non-creatures are we trying to blow up? I mean, there are lots, but what do you have in mind? I'm not really seeing an urgent need for that kind of stuff.

I usually take out bobs in the (non-midrange) deluge matchups, so I don't often hit my own creatures with it.

You also seem to not think chalice is all that well positioned right now. That may be true, but if we agree on that the deck is gonna have to change in some pretty big ways. BUGLands is not a bad way to go if chalice becomes not worth maining

[CptHaddock]

I think we really should not be comparing the way that Deed works in Nic Fit to the way it will work here. That whole deck is designed to work with deed. Most of their threats dodge it with their CMC, and veterans are designed to be sacrifices. The deck can also easily play and pop it in the same turn. Meanwhile, we will probably have to play it out one turn and then hope to dodge decay to use it the turn after. How often do you have a spare 6 mana? I think Leo/TNN are big enough actors that we want to be considering them when estimating the activation on Deed.

What non-creatures are we trying to blow up? I mean, there are lots, but what do you have in mind? I'm not really seeing an urgent need for that kind of stuff.

I usually take out bobs in the (non-midrange) deluge matchups, so I don't often hit my own creatures with it.

You also seem to not think chalice is all that well positioned right now. That may be true, but if we agree on that the deck is gonna have to change in some pretty big ways. BUGLands is not a bad way to go if chalice becomes not worth maining

Not sure why I need to keep on spoonfeeding the aggro loam master. :rolleyes:

The takeaway from the Nic Fit example is that it's okay to exchange a few of your threats for most of theirs. Yes we don't have the ability to abuse explorer like Nic Fit does but at the same time that deck is usually playing some number of creatures that they're losing as well whether it is DRS, Hatebears or commonly played cards like Leovold/SFM. You shouldn't be overcommitting to the board and then deeding it all away, that's just dumb. You also don't have to pop it immediately which can force your opponents to play around it by slowrolling their threats allowing you to deal with them easier. I don't quite understand taking out bobs but you do you.

So where did I say it's primarily for noncreatures? Just off the top of my head: aether vial, equipment i.e. swords, jitte and batterskull if you have the mana and cards like sylvan library.

Chalice is chalice, sometimes it's good and sometimes it's bad. I think it's bad when I play against mono decks that don't care about it and it's good when I play against decks where it stops half of their deck.

[Stuhl]

The beauty of Deluge is that you only hit your non Knight creatures. KotR is always big enough. Also it is a reliable spell for 3cmc. Against Elves waiting one more turn to crack Deed micht be crucial.

Overall I don't like Deed in this deck. Imo Deluge is still the best board wipe for the low on creatures mana base.

I never had serious issues with non creature spells. If at all it's Jace. And Deed does nothing here.

By the way: The Thalia list I posted earlier doesn't seem to be a thing :D I was in the mood. However, it doesn't work out [emoji14] It's just not a Thalia MD deck.

Gesendet von meinem SM-G935F mit Tapatalk

[Claymore]

If killing your own stuff was that big a deal, we would play Fire Covenant.

[bakofried]

I tested a junk list very similar to maharis's last night to good results against Elves, Infect, and a UB Death's Shadow list. Mana feels great. Brutality not being an instant was relevant a few times, but the deck ran so much smoother that I didn't mind. Cabal Pit is a house.

Sent from my SM-G920T using Tapatalk

[Claymore]

With the new Crucible on a stick, plus our own Loams and Knights which love lands in the yard, what about sideboard Impending Disasters for certain matchups?

A lot of these Leovold and Snapcaster decks are getting very mana hungry.

[CptHaddock]

With the new Crucible on a stick, plus our own Loams and Knights which love lands in the yard, what about sideboard Impending Disasters for certain matchups?

A lot of these Leovold and Snapcaster decks are getting very mana hungry.

That seems pretty janky, you could just play Thalia and punish both fair and unfair decks.

[apocolyps6]

If the card did not trigger on your upkeep, it might be worth talking about. Also, if the opponent is okay with 3 lands in play the card becomes pretty awful. Rancid Earth is kind of neat in that it can blow up a land and kill X/1s, but its also not worth a sideboard slot.

That being said playing actual Armageddon is not the worst idea if the meta calls for it. Mox Diamond, Knight, and playing 27+ lands make the effect less symmetrical.

[Megadeus]

Played straight Junk Loam Blade tonight to 4-0. Best RB Reanimator, UWR Stoneblade, GB Depths, and RUG Delver. No chalice. Played STP and Thoughtseizes instead. Deck looked kind of junky, but felt really good once I added a couple cycle lands. Also Collective Brutality with extra lands and Lingering Souls to discard was pretty fucking sick.

I can't wait for Crucible Man so I can play him with Green Sun and Armageddon

[Thoughtsauce]

Played straight Junk Loam Blade tonight to 4-0. Best RB Reanimator, UWR Stoneblade, GB Depths, and RUG Delver. No chalice. Played STP and Thoughtseizes instead. Deck looked kind of junky, but felt really good once I added a couple cycle lands. Also Collective Brutality with extra lands and Lingering Souls to discard was pretty fucking sick.

I can't wait for Crucible Man so I can play him with Green Sun and Armageddon

Oh God please post a list. This sounds so awesome.

[Megadeus]

Only played the four matches so far, so I never got into awkward situations where I dredge away stoneforge weapons. But it felt good. Rallier was alright. Not sure how great he actually is. Truths may be better off as Bob's as well.
4 Mox Diamond
3 Tarmogoyf
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Collective Brutality
2 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
2 Life from the Loam
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Painful Truths
3 Lingering Souls
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawas Jitte
2 Renegade Rallier

4 Wasteland
2 Savannah
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Forest
1 Swamp
3 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Rogues Passage
1 Tranquil Thicket
1 Barren Moor
2 Mishra's Factory
1 Karakas

Side:
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Choke
1 Surgical Extraction
3 Faerie Macabre
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Krosan Grip
1 To the Slaughter
1 Pithing Needle

Eats a fat one to True Name so that's what Rogue Passage is for. Also I think crop rotation is worth it since no chalice, as well as a SB bog.

[Thoughtsauce]

Thanks for the list! I def think you want to be on Bobs and Lilis, and some of the lands seem unnecessary. But overall I like the direction! My biggest complaint about traditional shells is no main board hand interaction (the Modern Junk player in me is sad) and this list helps scratch that itch.

[Griffith]

4 Mox Diamond
3 Tarmogoyf
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Collective Brutality
2 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
2 Life from the Loam
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Painful Truths
3 Lingering Souls
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawas Jitte
2 Renegade Rallier

4 Wasteland
2 Savannah
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Forest
1 Swamp
3 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Rogues Passage
1 Tranquil Thicket
1 Barren Moor
2 Mishra's Factory
1 Karakas

Side:
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Choke
1 Surgical Extraction
3 Faerie Macabre
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Krosan Grip
1 To the Slaughter
1 Pithing Needle


The list looks alright, but I'm not sure what your delver matchups look like without chalice, have you had many games against Grixis? This reminds me more of a Maverick list that's loose to combo and tempo (thoughtseize effects only get so far against them) , but I'd imagine you beat up a fair amount of other midrange decks as this is more aggressive than the typical control shell.

[Megadeus]

I literally just threw the list together right before the event so I haven't tested it against many decks. I just felt it had some merit while I played it. No chalice because I get to play real one drops and chalice can be clunky. Against Delver I have bigger threats, a lot of removal, and I can make fast mana and land drops to not get tempo out of the game. The Ralliers may be loose. And I'm sure the board needs work, but I have looked the deck so far

[Fatal]

Wanted to write it..

Rogues Passage < Kessing Wolf Run, then I realize you cut red .. anyway this land should be consider in normal punishing build.

[Megadeus]

Maybe my deck is more suited to the Rock Thread. It's a weird blurred line, but the deck does play more like that than most traditional aggro loam decks

[Claymore]

looks like a good rock deck. It blurs a bit, but by running 1 mana interaction and no chalice/fires I think that takes it out of Aggro Loam Loam classification. Rock used to run Mox Diamond and Hymns anyway.

Batterskull seems redundant with Goyfs and Knight, I'd replace with SoFI. Did you have good results with it?

I kind of like the Truths over Bob (T2 Brutality, T3 Truths or 3 drop...like Rallier for what you discarded) but would consider Library or Liliana that slot instead.

[TTX]

If you're not playing Chalice, why would you not play DRS?


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