[Deck] Aggro Loam

[Cabs]

Hi all

I've just got back into legacy and have this deck built up.

Are people now advocating Burning Wish? I seem to remmeber people saying it was too slow?

Also, I read somewhere a suggestion to include Glissa with artifact lands - is this too cute? It does seem incredibly strong against tribal strategies but there's no way to tutor up the artifact lands... thoughts?

Cheers,
Ben

[kusumoto]

Artifact lands only make one color of mana. This deck generally runs a single basic. You would have to wreck the manabase to do that.
Recurring EE is kind of meh in this deck also. Beyond that Glissa isn't good for much.

Burning Wish is too slow in my opinion, but somehow people are apparently doing well with it. I find it's hard to keep up with the current metas speed without wishes. With them it seems almost impossible.

[Aggro_zombies]

Also, I read somewhere a suggestion to include Glissa with artifact lands - is this too cute? It does seem incredibly strong against tribal strategies but there's no way to tutor up the artifact lands... thoughts?

Cheers,
Ben
The tribal decks all run Wasteland or are combo decks, so I'm not sure how this qualifies as being "strong". This deck has enough issues with the tempo gain from mana denial and Vial anyway.

[sdematt]

The problem is, Aggro Loam is an excellent deck in the mid-game to late-game. Early on, it's not the greatest because it doesn't really interact with the opponent: you're really just trying to get Life and Assault up and running, or get some big beats out. In those first 4-5 turns though, you're usually not full on assaulting (no pun intended) your opponent.

Even before when this deck was widely played, one Chalice on the board isn't enough to screw over Combo, so you died to that. Dredge isn't a great matchup, so you die to that. Gravehate makes you cry like a girl. But, I feel that if you can interact, or just get to the midgame and still have a buffer of life left with your deck, against non-combo you should be alright. The problem IS the fact there's so much combo in the format. How do you deal with Show and Tell? Dredge? TES? You basically don't. But, this deck could improve the aggro matchup, but I don't think it's going to cut it.

I still think the deck can be tuned for the new meta, but I doubt it can up it's game against Combo based decks to the point where it becomes really good again, but I'll still keep trying.

EDIT: I forgot Counterbalance can also lock you out. Whoops.

-Matt

[Keiichi]

The problem is, Aggro Loam is an excellent deck in the mid-game to late-game. Early on, it's not the greatest because it doesn't really interact with the opponent: you're really just trying to get Life and Assault up and running, or get some big beats out. In those first 4-5 turns though, you're usually not full on assaulting (no pun intended) your opponent.

Even before when this deck was widely played, one Chalice on the board isn't enough to screw over Combo, so you died to that. Dredge isn't a great matchup, so you die to that. Gravehate makes you cry like a girl. But, I feel that if you can interact, or just get to the midgame and still have a buffer of life left with your deck, against non-combo you should be alright. The problem IS the fact there's so much combo in the format. How do you deal with Show and Tell? Dredge? TES? You basically don't. But, this deck could improve the aggro matchup, but I don't think it's going to cut it.

I still think the deck can be tuned for the new meta, but I doubt it can up it's game against Combo based decks to the point where it becomes really good again, but I'll still keep trying.

EDIT: I forgot Counterbalance can also lock you out. Whoops.

-Matt

Hey, I'm new to this particular thread (and the site, really), but I thought I'd point out that in the three color versions, Engineered Explosives can be useful for dealing with Counterbalance and early aggro. It's a great reset button by turn 4-5, and you can pay 4 or 5 mana with only two colors to make it uncounterable by Counterbalance and still able to blow it up. You just have to bait out the hard counters first...

[Aggro_zombies]

Hey, I'm new to this particular thread (and the site, really), but I thought I'd point out that in the three color versions, Engineered Explosives can be useful for dealing with Counterbalance and early aggro. It's a great reset button by turn 4-5, and you can pay 4 or 5 mana with only two colors to make it uncounterable by Counterbalance and still able to blow it up. You just have to bait out the hard counters first...
EE does nothing to early aggro. It's far too slow; even if you open with a turn one EE at one and then pop it on turn two, you've wasted a sweeper on answering a single threat against decks brimming with them. Granted, that line of play is probably correct against Vial because you just lose to it, but against Zoo you're better off with EE at higher numbers and with Firespout to clear out the one-drops. But even then you're usually losing a lot of life to do so.

Counterbalance as a deck covers a whole range of issues. You're okay against the midrange ones as long as they don't run NO to trump you (in which case, you probably just lose), but the Gerry T and Martell builds are rough because there's a lot of denial and Jace does some bad things to you. Life from the Loam is also too slow as an engine in today's format, and not flexible enough.

On a related note, waiting that long to get your EE out just gives your opponent cover to set you farther behind. Counterbalance will mop up basically all of the bottom of your curve, and you're short enough on powerful spells that running various three-drops into counters isn't the hottest. Furthermore, you get crushed by Tops and Jaces because the Counterbalance player will likely have more answers than you have relevant, counter-worthy threats.

This deck isn't good anymore, even as a metagame deck. I mean, I love me some midrange Life from the Loam decks, but I cannot imagine a metagame where this deck would be the best choice. Maybe a meta full of random jank, but then Tendrils would probably be better because the rounds are faster, so I don't know.

[TheSleeper]

I completely agree with TheShaun on the original lack of responses: saying you've solved the format because you beat Stacks and Slivers wasn't exactly floating anyones boat. Your list may be the best thing since sliced bread but I'm guessing people wanted to see more results before they invested in testing it etc.

Now you've added Mono-black, Junk? and Vial-Zoo to your list of defeated opponents.. again, I'd like to see some tourney results vs. Tier 1 decks. Unless your testing on MWS vs a quality testing partner I don't count beating random scrubs on there any more than I do goldfishing.

That said I am often bored at work these days and will test your list. I like that your still tuning the archetype, so props for that. Am also interested to see if Burnwillows can hold its own in Legacy.

[COBBLER]

Ya Pulp seems like he has no idea what he's talking about

[Pulp_Fiction]

Ya Pulp seems like he has no idea what he's talking about

I actually LOLed reading this, ty, that made my day :)

Once again on wednesday I went 2-0 drop (friends at bars > magical cards). Playing against mono-black infect ..... it wasn't even close in any game, and I beat burn 2-0. Burn is not nearly as tough as I thought it would be. Turn 4 DD with Knight on the board is pretty savage. The white Leyline is killer. I am really liking this card. It literally just shut him down. Now Crusher sucks here, you have to hold a fetch back and force the 2-1 but you will eventually run them out of spells or land Assault and just win in 4 turns. Again, not tier 1 decks but it can hold its own against literally everything but Dredge and combo. However, I have actually been about 40ish% against Belcher post board which is something for a deck like this.

The reason I keep advocating to at least test my list out is that it rapes the hell out of a lot of the format and has little reliance on the graveyard. The only card that actually hurts is Leyline of the Void, everything else is largely irrelevant. Playing 5 Swords, 2 PF, and 2 Grim Lavamancers gives the deck the early game it was lacking. You can easily make it 2 the mid-late game against most decks. Punishing Fire has been interesting, most of the time it just sits in my hand for a few turns but, in general, it is never dead and always has some kind of impact on the game. With 2x Knight and Loam it isn't very hard to find 1/3 Groves and the land isn't bad at all. The best thing about it is that that land does not dilute your manabase, it actually helps a little.

One of my buddies has been playing a more traditional list w/ 4x Chalice main and has gone 0-2 drop 2 weeks in a row. He keeps losing to grave hate. Chalice is not nearly as good as it was and is really not as good against combo like most people think. In the aggro matchups it sucks now since Pridemage exists and its horrid against Merfolk and Goblins unless it hits turn 1 on the play. I have really been liking 4x Swords in these slots. Chalice is really only good against CB and even then it has to come down turn 1 on the play. If they resolve a Top .... all you have done is turn off their cantrips. And against CBThopter they just EE it away. Chalice used to be ridiculously good in this deck, but now ... it is not nearly as back breaking as it used to be.

I will never understand why there is no love for Burning Wish. How is it bad? Its never dead and allows you to essentially play 7 copies of Loam and with the proper wishboard you can find answers to almost every situation you encounter. Its slow .... thats the argument? This card gives you access to Firespout g1 against Goblins and Elves. How is turn 2-3 (depending on Moxes) Firespout too slow? It even gives you an out against Empty the Warrens tokens. Where is Wish bad? Your opponent sees the card you wish for in advance ... so what. And how is it 2 slow? What you you rather play? Wish is the most adaptable card in the deck. Your playing against the Black Leyline ..... answer. Iona on white in play ...... answer. Too many goblins and merfolk in play .... answer. No threats ..... Worm Harvest. It adapts to every situation you can be in, and how is a turn 3 (at the latest) board sweeper too slow?

[TheSocMethod]

Pulp, I salute you for actually trying to innovate (or renovate?) this archetype. I've been testing a slightly modified version of your list with competent players and I'm becoming a tenuous believer that this could be a competitive deck. I definitely feel RGw is stronger than RGB, as StP can get you out of tight spots in the early game and Knight is a house in this deck. Yes, this deck scoops to Show and Tell and NO decks and dredge. That doesn't seem to be a huge percentage of the meta. (Except Sneak and Tell has been hugely popular around here.) AND it's really fun to play!

I've been testing Green Sun's Zenith as a wish target:

4x Leyline of Sanctity
3x Krosan Grip
1x Vexing Shusher
1x Firespout (2 MD)
1x Worm Harvest
1x Hull Breach
1x Regrowth
1x Devastating Dreams
1x Life From the Loam
1x Green Sun's Zenith

Yes, I know it misses the best creature in the deck, but snagging Shusher, knight or a huge beatstick when you absolutely need them is a nice option. This way, the most we will ever have to mess with the deck's balance post-board is 4 cards (Leylines or Grip and Shusher), and we dramatically improve our CB or Zoo/burn/storm/belcher matchup. Thoughts?

[Pulp_Fiction]

Ty sir :) Green Sun's Zenith is interesting. But usually when I want an alternate kill Worm Harvet is exactly what the deck needs because you now have recurring threats and the fact you have multiple creatures is important. Being able to tutor up a Pridemage would be pretty cool, but in that instance Hull Breach would most likely do the same for less mana. As long as it works for you certainly run it. It does however make the deck less reliant on the graveyard and if you are getting hosed by something unforseen throwing a Goyf into play can't be bad.

There is one person in my meta running Show and Tell stuff and one person who randomly plays NO so I really don't encounter them that often and I have never seen anyone running Sneak Attack. Progenitus could be dealt with by running any kind of wrath effect in the board or even Virtue's Ruin/Perish. Emrakul is a bit of a beating, but I never see him in my meta. If he is a problem, a tiny black splash for Shriekmaw in the main and and wrath effects in the wishboard should certainly help.

Another interesting route to take could be running Solitary Confinement in the board and turn the deck into one of the old CAL decks. This is probably not the best option since it makes the deck more grave reliant but its certainly something to consider.

[ivanpei]

Nice list Pulp Fiction! Grats on your results.

Btw on the topic of GSZ in aggro loam, has anyone every considered playing it as a 4 off maindeck? Aggro loam is a mana hungry deck with all the loam + cycle land interactions. Could 4 GSZ's + dryad arbor be fitted into the deck? If you run this, you'd be green heavy and can't afford to play Seismic Assault. IMO, the 2 best splashes are white for KOTR and black for Bob + Vindicate. Here's a prelim list:

35 Non land:
4 Mox Diamond
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of The Reliquary
2 Terravore
1 Qasali Pridemage

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Vindicate
4 Life from the Loam

25 lands:
4 Wasteland
4 Tranquil Thicket
2 Secluded Steppe
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
4 Windswept Heath
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Savanna
3 Bayou

Thoughts? IMO, you'd have an aggressive, less loam dependant stompy deck. You now have a high % of opening an acceleration card in your opening hand which is usually what Aggro-Loam wants. GSZ also powers out bombs later in the game or looks for the Pridemage.

[Aggro_zombies]

I don't think Chalice is the best way to interact with your opponent. It often doesn't come down fast enough against the decks you really want to disrupt, and a lot of decks in the format are resilient to Chalice at one (and those that aren't as much, like 4c Counterbalance, tend to be soft to Wastelands). I would not want Chalice in the main, and would instead start with discard: Duress, Thoughtseize, maybe Therapy. It gives you something to do on turn one in the event you don't open an acceleration piece.

I'm also not a fan of GSZ for Arbor in any deck, though I could see the appeal of doing so in this one.

[ivanpei]

Agreed that Chalice should be Thoughtseize. The deck wants to open with some turn 1 action, 4 Mox, 4 GSZ and 4 Seize gives you 12, which is a nice number. I find that mana hungry decks love GSZ as it is an excellent topdeck. I'm gonna give this list a dry run with Thoughtseize and see how it goes. Since I'm not running chalice, should the vindicates be Swords? Or is the land busting potential of vindicate more important?

[Aggro_zombies]

Agreed that Chalice should be Thoughtseize. The deck wants to open with some turn 1 action, 4 Mox, 4 GSZ and 4 Seize gives you 12, which is a nice number. I find that mana hungry decks love GSZ as it is an excellent topdeck. I'm gonna give this list a dry run with Thoughtseize and see how it goes. Since I'm not running chalice, should the vindicates be Swords? Or is the land busting potential of vindicate more important?
Vindicate should probably be Swords, but I'm not sure. One-for-ones are weak against tribal, and you can already beat Zoo by going large, so you might be okay with no maindeck removal at all depending on what your meta looks like. On the other hand, some number of EE is probably a good idea in the main because Aether Vial exists and is played in a wide variety of decks, and if left unanswered will just beat you. For a similar reason I would want to run more Pridemages, and would probably cut Loams to do so; Loam, as both a card and a strategy, is kind of a liability these days.

[Pulp_Fiction]

I was reading through the Loam thread on MTGSalvation and started wondering how good Cataclysm would be. The reason I quit playing DD was that it sucked against blue and I had to discard cards. Sure Cataclysm costs 4 but ... where is it bad? WW is not an issue with fetches and Moxes, if it gets countered it doesn't matter, and it has the added benefit of killing all planeswalkers. I was thinking of switching around the manabase and cutting Punishing Fire and putting 2 of these in. Not that I don't like Punishing Fire (because I REALLY do) but I am trying to make the deck as effective as it can be.

I can't really think of a matchup where I wouldn't want to see Cataclysm except against Tendrils or something but ... even then, PF is just as worthless. I certainly need to test it out but I really like the idea of it, since it is a way to play DD without all of the drawbacks. Now the inability to destroy ALL of the opponents lands is certainly missed but it more than makes up for it with the 4cc and the fact it can be countered and it won't matter. It is certainly less effective against EtW tokens but I guess keeping a DD in the board and running 2 of these main would solve that.

[Pulp_Fiction]

Another top 4. Loaned the build w Punishing Fire to my buddy and he ran it to a top 4 again. He played against:

round 1 - Random jank 2-0
round 2 - 4c CB 0-2. He didn't SB right and the guy got ridiculously good draws. Bad luck on this one.
round 3 - DDFT pllayed by me - I gave him the win 2-1 since he had better matchups against the top 8 and great chances of making the money.
round 4 - Blue Stax - Raped him hard 2-0
round 5 - Meandeck MUD - Ravaged 2-0

He really liked Punishing Fire and it won him 3 seperate games. He also really liked the removal suite and Grim lavamancer. We shortly discussed running a Wrath effect in the board for an answer to Emrakul and Progenitus. Perhaps in the place of Wing Snare since it essentially does the same thing for 1 more mana. I think a wrath effect may be what the deck needs to further help the D&T matchups as well as gobbos, elves, etc, even though it essentially costs 6 mana to get rid of an Emrakul ... its still something.

[Pulp_Fiction]

Just FYI, you are welcome for the list and savage results.

[Nelis]

I'd like to see the list, please. And what Wrath Effects were you thinking of?

[Dark Ritual]

Wrath effects means the cards wrath of god or day of judgment (either one will suffice; regeneration is usually a non issue). Pulp's list doesn't run black so he can't run virtue's ruin or perish. You ALWAYS run firespout as a 1 in the wishboard at least and is sometimes a wrath effect.

[Nelis]

If Firespout is an auto-include anyway in the Sb then Retribution of the Meek might be an option for the big ones like Emrakul and Progenitus.

Is the list the same as the one on the previous page?

[paK0]

I'd also like a list, I always thought Aggro Loam was an interesting deck and adding cheap removal and Fire seems like more my style, so I might pick it up =).

[Pulp_Fiction]

This is what I have been playing:

4x Burning Wish
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Crusher
4x Mox Diamond
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Loam
2x Qasali Pridemage
2x Grim Lavamancer
2x Seismic Assault
2x Knight of the Religuary
2x Punishing Fire
1x Path to Exhile

4x Wooded Foothills
4x Arid Mesa
4x Wasteland
3x Forgotten Cave
2x Taiga
2x Tranquil Thicket
3x Grove of the Burnwillows
1x Plateau
1x Savannah
1x Barbarian Ring
1x Mountain

Sideboard

3x Krosan Grip
2x Firespout
4x Leyline of Sanctity

4Wish Targets

1x Devastating Dreams
1x Worm Harvest
1x Loam
1x Firespout
1x Hull Breach
1x Wing Snare (may become Wrath of God)

Its current record is 3-1-2. I dropped twice to go drink beer but both time I dropped I was either 2-0 or 2-1. Just trying to get some discussion about stuff. Cards like Cataclysm, justification for no BW, wish targets against random meta, etc. It just seems no one cares or plays it anymore. However, regardless of the amount of people posting I will still post tournament results and lists.

[paK0]

I tried it out a little on MWS and it does seem nice, but I keep getting mixed results, probably a lot by my suboptimal plays:

"Controllish" or all threat hands are easy to play. My problems are the mixed hands. Start the Loam engine or drop a threat? Remove their stuff or drop your own? Dredge or draw? I stuill judge a lot of situations wrong, I really need to figure that out.

The only thing I can say is that it would probably fit my style more to have a greater number of removal-spells and a few less threats, but that might just be me.

[Tao]

Look what I made. It is probably not optimal, but maybe a start for a discussion.

I like bolt more than Chalice.


// Lands
4 [R] Taiga
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
2 [ZEN] Mountain (4)
4 [ON] Forgotten Cave
4 [ARC] Tranquil Thicket
1 [M11] Forest
4 [FUT] Grove of the Burnwillows
2 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold
1 [R] Badlands
1 [SHM] Fire-Lit Thicket

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [PRE] Demigod of Revenge

// Spells
4 [4E] Lightning Bolt
3 [RAV] Life from the Loam
4 [ZEN] Punishing Fire
4 [7E] Seismic Assault
4 [V10] Mox Diamond
4 [JU] Burning Wish
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives

//Wishboard
SB: 1 [M11] Duress
SB: 1 [NE] Reverent Silence
SB: 1 [TO] Devastating Dreams
SB: 1 [EVE] Worm Harvest
SB: 1 [TO] Chainer's Edict
SB: 1 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 1 [6E] Perish
SB: 1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
// Sideboard
SB: 3 [FNM] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [ZEN] Ravenous Trap
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives

[Opaco]

As a Burning Wish target against Emrakul/Progenitus have you considered Tariff? For half the cost of a Wrath it takes care any big creature without completely wipping your own team.

[Pulp_Fiction]

@pak0: I wouldn't go below 14 threats. That was a problem with the older Loam lists, most just ran 12 creatures and 2-3 Assault and they occassionally had problems drawing threats. But w 2 Lavamancer, 5 Swords, 2 PF, 4 BW and 2 SA you want more removal? I mean, maindeck Firespout would certainly be a house in certain metas, but adding 2-3 Path seems like the better overall call. However, since Swords is occassionally a dead card, it seems wrong to cut things like Pridemage/Goyf/whatever which are always going to be relevant since they can swing, for additional removal spells. What would you want them against?

Playing Loam is not easy, you have to anticipate your opponent's moves and try to figure out what will hurt them more based on their board position. There is really no general answer because each situation is unique. I tried to think of examples against CB and Zoo but ... I kept thinking, well, that depends also. Wasteland recursion is good if Zoo stalls on mana but sometimes laying a Goyf down to keep yourself out of burn range is the right call rather than kill their 2 lands if they have enough damage on the table. Use your judgment. Against basically everything I try to get Seismic Assault down ASAP (except CB) since that will win the majority of the games it resolves. But aside from that, its all different. Just think about what cards you want to see and how many cycle lands you have in the yard. With 2 cycle lands and an active Loam, almost always dredge since you have 2 chances of drawing a threat rather than 1 with the lands (and you make hit consistent land drops), and you may dredge into PF or Barb Ring. Just ask yourself what you need at the time and act accordingly.

I totally forgot about Tariff! Good call, I knew something like that existed but I always thought it targeted creatures. Very good to know, that would certainly be a great wish card. A case could be made for Wrath since it just totally punishes elves regardless of their Power/toughness and ravages D&T with their cute Mother of Runes tricks; but if you play against a lot of Progenitus/Emrakul stuff ... the fact that this could be cast as early as turn 2 w a Mox Diamond or wished for a cast in the same turn for only 4 mana is huge. That and it doesn't nuke your board if you are having a Tombstalker and Goyf standoff. I don't know, but now that I think about it, I kind of want both!

[paK0]

Thanks pulp, I guess I'll just have to play more. I've been a control player for most of my Magic-life, so its kinda hard to make the transition =)


On another note, I played some games with Wrath in the board and it is an absolute house, even though I didn't see a single Emrakul and only one Progenitus.

[Xiang]

So if you want to play Wrath and Tariff are you going to cut the 3rd Firespout as it is somewhat redundant with wrath?

[Pulp_Fiction]

Great to hear about wrath. I haven't really tested it out yet but positive resuts already seem promising :)

If you wanted wrath and Tariff, cutting Wing Snare and a Firespout seems like the right call. Since they essentially do the same thing against gobbos and Zoo, you can still board in 2 Firespout and have the extra sweeper lying in the board if needed. I wonder which would be better to board in. My initial reaction is Firespout, but then again, I almost never cast it on turn 3 and spending 5 mana with Firespout in the board is a lot better than 3RWW with wrath. Boarding in wrath may be the right call against gobbos but against Merfolk I know I would put the Firespouts in and have wrath waiting in case of some Lord overrun madness I have an out. Thoughts?

[Xiang]

My thoughts are, that this is exactly what I would do against Goblins and Folk.^^ Would you board in the wrath (with tariff side) against Emrakul? (Gives you one answer more but is worse to multiple show and tell (or natural order etc)l attempts.)

[Tao]

Hmmm, I've experimented a bit further and I think I am on a good way:

- Chalice of the Void is not good enough anymore. Preventing CC1 spells is good and all but it is so slow. Chalice puts the deck's reliance on Mox Diamond and winning the die roll to an extreme. Against Tribal it is only good when you have both, Mox and the right to start the game. This happens in exactly 20% of the games (less if you count Mulligans in).

- The deck would be better off to play CC1 spells itself. Thoughtseize and/or Inquisition of Kozilek are also disrupting our opponent's plans but do it much faster and more reliably. Imo Lightning Bolt should be in the deck without a doubt (unless you play W and more controllish for Swords). It is very good. It kills everything except Goyf/KotR for only 1 Mana which improves the Tribal and Zoo matchup significantly.

- Punishing Fire/Grove of the Burnwillows: It is solid. It can outcontrol Tribal pretty easily, helps in many matchups and having something to inevitably dredge into is nice. Still not 100% sold on it, though.

- Demigod of Revenge has been good in my testing. Unfortunately running Demigod in the same deck as Crusher is awkward. But it has the potential for extreme blowouts with dredging. It also adds a lot of late game power, Dredge into some Demigods and have Demigod or Stronghold in hand and Counterbalance/Jace/Moat etc. all do nothing against Demigod.

[Tao]

Edit: Site works again

[Tao]

Edit: Site works again

[Aggro_zombies]

- Chalice of the Void is not good enough anymore. Preventing CC1 spells is good and all but it is so slow. Chalice puts the deck's reliance on Mox Diamond and winning the die roll to an extreme. Against Tribal it is only good when you have both, Mox and the right to start the game. This happens in exactly 20% of the games (less if you count Mulligans in).
I...I love you so much... ;___;


- Punishing Fire/Grove of the Burnwillows: It is solid. It can outcontrol Tribal pretty easily, helps in many matchups and having something to inevitably dredge into is nice. Still not 100% sold on it, though.
Seems slow. How often is it better than Loam and Assault if you're not expecting graveyard hate? The colors don't seem too much easier considering it costs :1::r::r: to recycle one PF.


- Demigod of Revenge has been good in my testing. Unfortunately running Demigod in the same deck as Crusher is awkward. But it has the potential for extreme blowouts with dredging. It also adds a lot of late game power, Dredge into some Demigods and have Demigod or Stronghold in hand and Counterbalance/Jace/Moat etc. all do nothing against Demigod.
Also seems very slow. How often do you find yourself needing a late-game blowout, and would you be better off running Terravore because it does something early? If you're still in Jund colors, Anathamancer seems interesting as a way to burn people out, though I guess it's not the best if you've been Wastelanding them. Still, five mana is pretty close to infinite mana in Legacy right now.

[Careve]

Well, did you actually test Fire/Grove? Most of its critics are just "theorizing" its effectiveness, while those who actually tried it in their decks seem to appreciate this duo.

I like fire/grove duo a lot and I play them alongside loam/assault.

[Pulp_Fiction]

Exactly, Punishing Fire is HOT. On paper it looks like total shit but in play it is the nuts. No joke, when I first ran it at my local cardshop people thought it was a joke. After watching what it does against .... most of the creatures in the format they changed their tune. In particular when I repeatedly drew blanks (lands) against goblins and had this active keeping their board in check till I drew something relevant.

On my tournament on wednesday I really liked Tariff. I lost due to horrid matchups and sub-par draws but ... this happens on occassion. On another note, I really wanted Flame Jab on the board .... but it just seems like overkill. In addition to that, I really like the idea of Thrun on the board. Given, there is no room but he seems like a house against a LOT of the control decks. Problem being is that he is just gonna get shown down w a Goyf so he seems sub par, but against something like Landstill and CB Thopter he seems really solid, maybe to a lesser extent against Merfolk. I just wanted the card there cause I really want to test it out since he seems a good fit for a mid-range aggro deck like this. Thoughts?

[novatinhu]

Im thinking in something like this:

//Creatures\\
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Countryside Crusher
1 Terravore
1 Eternal Witness

//Spells\\
4 Punishing Fire
4 Burning Wish
3Thoughtseize
3 Life from the Loam
3 Mox Diamond
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Seismic Assault

//Lands\\
4 Wasteland
3 Tranquil Thicket
3 Forgotten Cave
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Taiga
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Badlands
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Bayou
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Mountain
1 Forest


//Side\\
3 Duress
2 Archive Trap
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Krosan Grip
2 Firespout
1 Worm Harvest
1 Devastating Dreams
1 Life from the Loam
1 Chainer's Edict

Anyone have any idea to better the MD and the side i really dont know what to put againts: Standstill decks, S&T decks and High tide!!!

[Nidd]

I have to chime in on Punishing Fire being completely nuts. I know Legay players are kinda sceptical when it comes to new tech, but Punishing Fire is a lot like Counterbalance - at first it was dismissed by many people, but when they see it in action, you see the sheer power of the card.

Granted, I run it in a completely different deck, but this deck even plays a lot of the right color for PFire and it's arguably better to support the engine.

PFire eats Tribal alive and can also pose a big problem for other strategies.

[Mtre]

Hi, I’ve been following this thread for a couple of months now.
When I first read Taos post, was very sceptical. (And I’m still not sold on the Demigods. They seem to be too clunky and with a CMC of 5 it is really a pain to topdeck them with Dark Confidant. Also, they make you even more vulnerable to GY-hate)

At first I was playing the (almost) standard RGB McGregor List with a minimal splash for two Knights with some (minor) success.
Then I started tinkering and that’s what came up:

//Lands
1 Forest
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Forgotten Cave
2 Tranquil Thicket
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Wasteland
2 Taiga
1 Badlands
1 Plateau
1 Bayou
1 Mountain
1 Maze of Ith
1 Bojuka Bog

//Creatures
4 Countryside Crusher
3 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf

//Spells
4 Life from the Loam
4 Mox Diamond
2 Maelstrom Pulse

//Burn Package
3 Punishing Fire
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Lightning Bolt

//Sideboard
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 4 Chalice of the Void
SB: 4 Extirpate
SB: 4 Duress (Hide//Seek now)

First of all, Knight of the Reliquary is awesome. It provides some nice combat tricks with Bojuka Bog, Maze of the Ith (a card definitely worth considering in my opinion; I would never cut it) or even Grove of Burnwillows and helps you to recover after your yard got exiled. The downside is, that it stretches your manabase to the maximum, but i think it’s worth it, just try. (obv. you got to think about what you are fetching for, basically the same thing as with Assault)

Fire/Grove is a nice addition to this deck. Unlike Assault/Loam both cards are useful on their own and, as already mentioned, you can just dredge into it. The lifegain seems negligible. There is (almost) always a card you can kill with it: Lavamancer, Mother of Runes(one of the most annoying creatures you can play against), Steppe Lynx, Nacatl & Kird(after wasting their mana), Bobs, Stoneforges, Nobles, Pridemages, sometimes even Goyf (Goyf vs. Goyf + Fire) or KotR after exiling their yard with bog, and of course every Merfolk, Elf or Goblin. If you‘re expecting GY-hate you can just dodge it, by searching for a second grove (e.g. via Knight).
On the other hand, it’s a bit slow, just a bit and sometimes it’s just inferior to Assault because 10dmg/5 mana > 2 Pings or Shocks/5 mana. But it’s also kinda uncounterable which is useful in the Merfolk matchup. Nevertheless Fire/Grove gets worse with every lord effect. That’s where bolts take over.
All in all this engine is worth considering. I’m still not 100% sure, but i think I’ll keep them in the MD. Perhaps you should even play 4 Fires MD, due to the fact that one Grove can feed multiple Fires, but I guess not.

First I also had a singleton Karakas somewhere in my 75, but it proved too often as useless and just weakened the mana base, which seems quite solid now, since it's almost a 3c one.

With 12 SB solts dedicated to the combo matchup, these matchups are still far away from being favorable, but they are doable (with the exception of decks like Sneak/Show).
Also, Equipments caused some problems.


I’m not sure if this is the way to go. There are a few variants of Loam atm: Junk-style, Naya, traditional RGB, 4c, Cobra (not that good I think)… and none of them is really superior, so there is still some work to do.

A few sidenotes:
-Extirpate seems to be very great against Graveyard-based Decks (ofc.), but also against threat-light like *****, where Bolts and Fires are useless (you can also target Tropical, if they don’t play Basic Forests) . They could also be useful vs. Storm targeting Infernal Tutor or LED in rsp. to IGG.
-I never really missed Assault
-Perhaps a few more 1-drops would be nice
-A 3rd Pulse is should be considered due to the lack of Enchantment/Artifact removal
-7 Burn Spells might be too much, but I guess not. At least if you expecting more Aggro than Combo (playing Loam in a Combo meta is a bad idea in general)
-Getting chump-blocked sucks. At first I played Skarrg, but you know, the mana base thing…

[Dark Ritual]

I would seriously consider cutting black altogether right now. Because manabase issues will get exploited by a lot of decks and being 3 color helps against waste obviously while 4 color is a complete dog to wasteland unless you want to pack a LOT of lands like 30 lands or something ridiculous that can make your draws less than stellar. I would cut dark confidant (only black card) for StP or something or another in white or even red or green just to have a good manabase. With team america running around a lot lately 3 color is the only way to play this deck; I'm probably going to switch to RGW myself despite first turn bob being the nut high if unanswered he just isn't worth it. Stronghold is good but it strictly a lategame card pretty much and this deck flourishes in the lategame.

I'm going to try out PFire in here. At first glance it seems awful but really, it stomps merfolk, hurts zoo, kills goblins hardcore....and the interaction with them StPing your dudes is hilarious :tongue:

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

So, this is what I've been testing recently, and liking it pretty well (at least on MWS):

2 qasali pridemage
2 countryside crusher
4 knight of the reliquary
1 eternal witness
3 tarmogoyf
2 green sun's zenith
1 elspeth, knight-errant

1 seismic assault
2 punishing fire
4 swords to plowshares
4 thoughtseize
3 life from the loam
3 burning wish

4 mox diamond
1 forest
1 mountain
2 savannah
2 taiga
1 bayou
3 wooded foothills
2 windswept heath
2 grove of the burnwillows
1 volrath's stronghold
1 karakas
4 wasteland
3 tranquil thicket
1 maze of ith

The sideboard is still a bit of a work in progress (ie it's like 20 cards or so on MWS right now) so I'll leave that part out for now. It's pretty standard for a wishboard, really.

As far as the maindeck, I would cut black altogether, but I really wanted to run some disruption to help against combo and go through counters, etc. Also, I think Swords to Plowshares and Thoughtseize are just about the best 1cc spells in the format, and I like how Volrath's Stronghold enables recursive Witness. I think Dark Confidant, although he's obviously a great card, is unnecessary in this deck. Also, I think cycling lands + Loam usually provides me with a solid enough draw engine. I might try to fit in a Horizon Canopy or more cyclers if I end up wanting more draw... Basically, I play Aggro Loam like a midrange aggro/control deck, and I'm not wild about how Confidant doesn't beat for significant damage, and can cause excessive loss of life to the user. Idk though, maybe Confidant actually should be a cornerstone of this deck, I certainly am not one of the people that's been playing it the longest. But in this version, I haven't been missing him.

So far, 3 Tarmogoyf has been really good, because the 2 Green Sun's Zenith grabs the Goyfs you need, and the rest of the creatures fill their roles really well so I wouldn't want to cut anything for the fourth Goyf so far. I know some people will call me a heretic for this, but whatevs. Try it first, it actually works pretty well.

Anyhow... I'd really appreciate some comments. I'm thinking of putting this deck together as my second real life Legacy deck, since I randomly own a lot of the cardboard for it in my collection. The main things I'm missing out of this list are the Goyfs, 3 of the Moxes, Savannah #2 and Taiga #2, a couple fetches, and the Green Sun's Zeniths. So, if the list proves to be hot shit, and if I can get some great feedback from you lovely people, I may actually splurge on this shit.

Thoughts?

[Careve]

I think Zoo and Merfolks should be very difficult for such decklist and 4 seizes does not seem to do much against combo decks (well, maybe your whole sideboard is dedicated to combo matchups).

How does this decklist look against my mentioned decks?

Isn't elspeth redundant when you have so many fat creatures?

[lordofthepit]

I'm going to try out PFire in here. At first glance it seems awful but really, it stomps merfolk, hurts zoo, kills goblins hardcore....and the interaction with them StPing your dudes is hilarious :tongue:

Am I missing something?

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

I think Zoo and Merfolks should be very difficult for such decklist and 4 seizes does not seem to do much against combo decks (well, maybe your whole sideboard is dedicated to combo matchups).

How does this decklist look against my mentioned decks?

Isn't elspeth redundant when you have so many fat creatures?

Care to explain a bit? I don't entirely agree that the list I posted would have much trouble with Merfolk or Zoo in particular. And combo decks are usually accepted as being a bad matchup for Aggro Loam decks; I'm not pretending to reinvent the wheel.

I think it might be more helpful to me if you critiqued some of the individual card choices or something... I don't mean to be defensive, but you don't offer much in the way of support to your claim that Merfolk/ Zoo would be especially problematic. And if I was running this deck, I would pretty much accept some combo decks as a bad matchup. I'm not looking to reinvent the wheel, just hoping for a little feedback.

[Dark Ritual]

Am I missing something?

Oh yeah I just realized this but you are correct. It's the other way around that's funny (you swords their dude, they gain life, you pay R to get back PFire although this was probably obvious).

Elspeth gives evasion and gets around moat/humility rather well. The ultimate = game win usually but that's just icing on the cake. Only problem? 4 mana. Double white is also a slight issue.

[Careve]

Care to explain a bit? I don't entirely agree that the list I posted would have much trouble with Merfolk or Zoo in particular. And combo decks are usually accepted as being a bad matchup for Aggro Loam decks; I'm not pretending to reinvent the wheel.

I think it might be more helpful to me if you critiqued some of the individual card choices or something... I don't mean to be defensive, but you don't offer much in the way of support to your claim that Merfolk/ Zoo would be especially problematic. And if I was running this deck, I would pretty much accept some combo decks as a bad matchup. I'm not looking to reinvent the wheel, just hoping for a little feedback.

Well, what I wrote was my first impression of your decklist, but it might be wrong. You said you tested your decklist in MWS, so I just wanted to hear about your testing results before posting some criticism which might be entirely incorrect.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

I guess I might be coming at this from the wrong direction. Basically, I'm interested in picking up this deck, because dual lands are fucking expensive right now, and I happen to own most of the ones I'd need to make a decent version of this deck (1x: Taiga, Badlands, Scrubland, Savannah, Bayou).

What I've noticed though, is there doesn't seem to be much consensus on the best list at the moment. I'm just wondering what people see to be the essential elements to this deck right now: What creatures are best? Is it worthwhile to run a fourth color? What matchups should we look to improve, and which should we abandon as irreversibly unfavorable? Etc...

As someone who is looking to potentially pick up this deck, I'm just wondering if anyone who has been playing it for a while is willing to weigh in and give me an update on where it stands these days in the metagame.

[(nameless one)]

I think the person to talk to with that is Pulp Fiction.

Anyways, I'm here because I am trying to put together a 'budget' list. I don't own duals so I will be restricted to R/G, possible a little white but it doesn't look that good. I have most of the other pieces: Mox Diamonds, Wastelands, Loams, Fetches. I don't own Tarmogoyf (which might be a pickle).

Anyways, I haves asked before the viability of Punishing Fire/Grove of the Burnwillows combo and every has been split on it. My next question is if Bloodbraid Elf would be good? The only problem I see is cascading into a Mox with a landless hand but with Loam, that shouldn't be a problem. It's not like Devastating Dreams still see play right?

Even in the actual builds, why doesn't it see play? Beside cascading into something isn't really mandatory right?

Also, I have read discussions about Scroll Rack before. Is it a win-more or it just doesn't work with the deck?

[Tainted]

This days I'm returning to the black to test Entomb in the place of Burning Wish because this deck have many tech but with Burning Wish i often find myself with just one piece of those, and when the other pieces are not sorcery, i have to wait or dredge hoping to find them, for example if I've got Grove of the Burnwillows but not Punishing Fire with wish i can't do nothing more than wait, with entomb i just put it in the GY and start the tech; entomb allow me to play less copies of Life From The Loam and tutor it when i need it, i think that having 2 lftl in the GY is useless; entomb, however, can be recycled with witness for more tutoring, I can also tutor utility lands like Bojuka Bog or Volrath's Stronghold and take it with loam.
The list is something like:

4 Dark Confidant
4 Countryside Crusher
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Eternal Witness

2 Seismic Assault
2 Punishing Fire
2 Life From The Loam
3 Thoughtseize
4 Entomb
3 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Devastating Dream
4 Mox Diamond

4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
3 Badland
2 Taiga
2 Bayou
1 Mountain
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Forgotten Cave
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Wasteland

I'm testing if Garruk Wildspeaker can be any good in this deck as alternative to thoughtseize(I feel thoughtseize as suboptimal in this deck if you don't find it in the early round), it will allow me to cast another PFire each round, it give me some beasts as threat and give trample to goyf and crusher, and if it goes well I'll test even Death Cloud in the place of devastating dream(DC will be good also against progenitus/emrakul while DD is pretty poor).
Maybe mixing the 2 strategy will not be good enough but i was thinking that we don't have the elder, but we've got mox.
As sideboard I have Pyrostatic Pillar against storm, Leyline of the Void for dredge/reanimator/mirror, Krosan Grip for nasty enchantment/artifact/equip. Maybe I'll add Leyline of Sanctity if Storm or Burn/Slight begin to spread out.

[Pulp_Fiction]

@DDK: It depends on what you meta is like. If youplay against a lot of people running CB and Tempo decks then Chalice can make the cut. That is really the big discussion, as to the viability of the card right now. I personally think 4-6 StP effects are way better, but the combo matchup certainly takes a hit ... then again, even back in the old RGb lists w Chalice, combo was still a beating. On of my buddies runs a list w 4 Chalice main and Null Rod in the board and still has maybe a 30-35% chance against combo. He is also running 4 colors and a bunch of "cute" lands for Knight and it seems like everytime I see him in some weird position he is hampered because he has a Maze or Tabernacle in play that can't tap for mana.

The other undecided debate is on Burning Wish. The most common argument against is "its 2 slow" but I'm not sure how an answer-all spell that is never dead and starts to have relevance on turns 1-3 everytime is to slow but ... whatever. I will never understand why people don't run Wish in here but .. its always an option.

All of your questions can be answered by analyzing your meta. What do you expect to see? The best creatures in the deck ... that will never be decided. A while ago I ran Dark Confidant and just despised it but yet some people swear by it. My buddy runs a creature base of: 4x Terravore, 4x Knight, 4x Crusher which he seems to like and, well I don't. The only thing most can agree on is colors, 3 color is generally the best due to the manabase. When playing 4x Wasteland and 6-9 lands that only add 1 type of mana, 4-color manabases are very rough and quite reliant on Mox Diamond. I love the 4-color builds (mainly because I get to run Stronghold) but it sacrifices too much consistency.

Really the only matchups I have written off are Dredge and storm combo. However, storm is entirely beatable with the white Leyline, Wastelands and adequate pressure but its still not good. The Belcher matchup post-board was literally 50/50 when I tested which I was very happy with, but Tendrils is .... not great unless your playing against ANT which is the weakest Tendrils deck ATM. Dredge is and always will be a nightmare for this deck. Unless they mull into oblivion or get really unlucky you are gong to lose. Even if you run Morningtide or something like that in the wishboard ... its doesn't help. But against nearly every other deck in the format you have a great chance and Elves, Goblins, Merfolk, Zoo, Landstill, Team America, Bant, you are certainly a favorite.

@nameless one: One of my other buddies used to run Bloodbraid Elf and totally loved it, but he really only liked it when you hit DD. It can't block anything and live, dies to every form of spot removal and is entirely random in nature. He liked playing it for the LOLs but you just randomly hit Mox or another Loam and after that the creature is largely worthless. When he took 2nd at SCG Orlando he had totally cut Bloodbraid from his list. Is it a viable option, sure, but there are a lot better creatures to play.

Top is a lot better than Scroll Rack if you want to play a card filtering effect. Rack is only good if you have multiple cards in hand while Top is ALWAYS relevant. When you are winning its cool to draw three cards then put shit back on top an dredge them away but its really not entirely necessary. I would run Sylvan Library over Scroll Rack but thats me. Again, I have read a few people liking this card but it really only seems good if you are winning and have a lot of cards in hand. Totally awesome with Crusher but, lets be honest, ur probably winning at that point anyway.

[Patrunkenphat7]

Hey guys,
This deck seems pretty well-positioned going into the post-Mental Misstep metagame. The major issue I jave with this deck is the noticably lower win percentages when I do not see Mox Diamond. Has anyone tested a single Chrome Mox? I also like running a Sylvan Library in addition to the Bobs, and this has the potential for making up for the card disadvantage a bit...

[Keiichi]

After a casual read of the thread, I noticed that there's one card glaringly absent from the discussion: Gamble.

It is my opinion that Gamble is one of the best tutors available to us. I play it in Lands.dec, and it has advantages over Crop Rotation, Burning Wish, and Entomb; I'm wondering whether the card was tested and tossed aside or just forgotten...

Any thoughts?

[Mtre]

I guess Gamble never was an option, case this deck used to play Chalice main, but now, since CotV is more often moved to the board or cut in general, it might be useful.
The best cards to tutor for aside from Loam are probably Bojuka Bog and Wasteland (maybe also Maze of Ith and parts of the Punishing Fire engine if played). Unlike Lands you can't reliable tutor up solution cards like EE/Ruins. Another thing is that you will rarely gamble during your first turns, cause you don't want to risk to discard important cards like Confidant or Crusher. So Gamble does almost the same job KotR does, plus the Knight is not soft to MM which we run just a few targets for and which is very popular atm. The downside is that Knight can just eat a StP.
Gamble would be a nice 1-drop for the deck, but due to the fact it won't be played often during the first turns, it doesn't help beeing less Mox-dependent T1, so it could be included as a 2-3 of or something, but the space is really tight, so i doubt it will see play.

[lavafrogg]

Imma also post this here seeing how it fly's unseen in the rock thread. It is essentially aggro loam with black instead of red, for better combo options. I was the only other player playing loam in the emerald tourney and very easily could have top 8'd due to the metagame having a glaring weakness to wasteland(and my two losses coming to decks with all basics...:/). I would be more than happy to discuss card choices as the deck has remained mostly the same for over two years.

Take the good with the bad i guess.... I just went 3-2-1 at the southern california mox emerald tourney toady using my loam-tombstalker build.

// Lands
4 [ON] Barren Moor
3 [R] Bayou
1 [LRW] Forest (2)
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [R] Savannah
1 [b] Scrubland
1 [8E] Swamp (4)
4 [ON] Tranquil Thicket
3 [TE] Wasteland
3 [ON] Wooded Foothills

// Creatures
3 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
2 [OD] Terravore
3 [FUT] Tombstalker

// Spells
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (4)
4 [RAV] Life from the Loam
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
4 [b] Swords to Plowshares
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize

// Sideboard
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Smother
3 Gaddock Teeg
3 Vindicate
3 Runed Halo

I couldn't have been happier with the main deck but I feel that the fourth wasteland should be there somewhere. The sideboard was made when I saw the metagame at the event and also performed well.

I forgot to write down names but here is a brief report:
Round One(U/B Dark Depths)
Game One: I lead with a thoughtseize and a hymn and quickly follow that up with a terravore to apply some of the beats. He plays a dark confidant which is swords'd and a Jace which is irrelevant. I have no idea what is going on but get the easy win.
Game Two: Seeing how I put him on U/B control I sided in Gaddock Teegs for explosives, I thoughtseized him seeing the hexmage and by then it was too late and a 20/20 came to my side of the table to say hello.
Game Three: I keep a solid hand with two fast tombstalkers and a swords and he mulligans to five. On his turn two he combos off and meets the swords, on turn three he does it again. FML. 0-1

Round Two(Storm Combo)
Game One: He eats a double hymn and is never actually in the game, I am able to waste the two duals he plays and tarmogoyf/bob swing for the win.
Game Two: Turn One Gaddock Teeg turn two runed halo on tendrils....gg?

Round Three(Combo Elves)
Game One: I draw and play four thoughtseize this game, those remove a priest of titania, two natural orders and a perfect. That coupled with a swords and two goyf ended this game quickly.
Game Two: I keep a hand with swords and teeg and he keeps a fast natural order. With teeg in play he amasses an army of a perfect, two tokens and two other elf lords... I play and blow a EE for three and attack with the team to clear his board; he scoops the next turn.

Round Four(SDERock)
Game One: We trade some early disruption until wasteland/loam come online he is topping for mana sources while an untimely hymn empties his hand. A 13/13 terravore comes down to end the game very quickly.
Game Two: This game is similar to the first until I make my mistake of the day, which leads to this draw, with a knight in play I attacked with a huge terravore. For some reason I forgot bog existed and power cycled(no loams after siding) to ensure the vore would survive combat(I had the wasteland up for the maze). When he fetched the bog I face palmed and tried to salvage the game but he wound up top-shuffle-top for removal to seal the deal.
Game Three: This game was a beating with me drawing mass removal up the ass and trading 1-1 with deeds and explosives to run him out of gas. By the time I drew a threat to kill him, I had a tombstalker that was swords'd, the game was on turns and the vore could only do so much.

Round Five(G/W/u Mystic)
Game one:This game one went the way of so many game ones before it, with some wastelands being followed up by terravore and double tombstalker to seal the deal.
Game Two: In a role reversal my opponent plays turn one zenith for zero, turn two knight, turn three knight-fetch wasteland-wasteland me. Attack for 10......gg?
Game Three: I have answers for my opponents threats and he is color screwed, slightly wasteland induced, with a game breaking sower of temptation in hand.

Round Six(Elves...again)
Apparently elves believe in Karma because I got blown out these two games.
Game one: Turn 3 progenitus.
Game Two: Mulligan to five and I got the pleasure of watching my opponent draw a bunch of cards and play a bunch of elves...guess it wasn't meant to be.

All in all I had a great time and considering my lack of sleep and lack of competitive magic in the last three years I couldn't have been prouder of my performance. The store was great though i did feel for the 13 or so people that couldn't play due to table space. Thank you to all of the great people I talked to, traded and got to play today.

sdematt: your decklist is defiantly spreading and was played by quite a few people today across the room. I believe the junk list that top 8'd was your list and I have no idea what the aggro loam deck was.

my sideboard: perish for sure needs to go in the board as I saw green creatures left and right.

stoneforge mystic: this card was also everywhere and might actually be the real deal. Between the batterskull interaction and just fetching swords/jittes and attacking, the card is a very large threat when it is on the board and almost demands respect.

[Greenpoe]

Why Tombstalker over Knight of the Reliquary? With Knight, you can add the 4th Confidant without worrying about CMC or eating up your own graveyard. The new Sewer Nemesis from the EDH set is another option and comes down huge and keeps growing while throwing stuff in the 'yard.
Overall, nice list. Sounds like the Hymns were game-winners.

[lorddotm]

Why Tombstalker over Knight of the Reliquary? With Knight, you can add the 4th Confidant without worrying about CMC or eating up your own graveyard. The new Sewer Nemesis from the EDH set is another option and comes down huge and keeps growing while throwing stuff in the 'yard.
Overall, nice list. Sounds like the Hymns were game-winners.

That list looks really bad. Hymn's are kind of interesting, giving up Seismic and Crusher for Swords and Tombstalker doesn't seem like the business though. BB with RRR and needing lots of G kind of cuts out Hymn in Loam.

Not to mention the 3 Wastelands....

[Koby]

Round Five(G/W/u Mystic)
Game one:This game one went the way of so many game ones before it, with some wastelands being followed up by terravore and double tombstalker to seal the deal.
Game Two: In a role reversal my opponent plays turn one zenith for zero, turn two knight, turn three knight-fetch wasteland-wasteland me. Attack for 10......gg?
Game Three: I have answers for my opponents threats and he is color screwed, slightly wasteland induced, with a game breaking sower of temptation in hand.


You played against me Anthony. Here's what I remember -

G1 - The turn after you cast terravore, I drew GSZ, but only had enough mana to pay X=2. Had I drawn another land (or perhaps didn't lose all of them to your wastes XD), I would have matched your Terravore with my own. I think you Hymn'd me knocking out one of my lands too, but I can't recall exactly.

G2 - BOSH. I had a very aggressive draw which curved perfectly. Hierarch, KotR, KotR, and when you fetched at the end of my turn, you gave me the opportunity to wasteland you out of the game.

G3 - Again, I was stuck at the 3 mana mark. My hand was full of bombs - I was able to cast the Elspeth out first before you had a threat. Then you cast Tarmogoyf and wasted me back to 3 mana on the same turn, and I failed to draw land to cast Sower of Temptation and Batterskull. It was close!

[Mtre]

Game Two: I keep a hand with swords and teeg and he keeps a fast natural order. With teeg in play he amasses an army of a perfect, two tokens and two other elf lords... I play and blow a EE for three and attack with the team to clear his board; he scoops the next turn.


Uhm.. did I miss something?


That list looks really bad. Hymn's are kind of interesting, giving up Seismic and Crusher for Swords and Tombstalker doesn't seem likethe business though. BB with RRR and needing lots of G kind of cuts out Hymn in Loam.

Not to mention the 3 Wastelands....

I think its possilbe to play GWB, theres a guy at my local store who is quite successful with it. But you're right, 4 Wastelands is a must and Knight is so much better in Loam that Stalker.

Btw: I had some minor success in the pre MM Meta with the list i posted before going 4-2 twice in ~40 players tourneys (the only ones i played for a while). I won against Dreadstill, UBg Landstill, Infect Stompy, ThopterCT, Affinity, Maverick, TA & Zenith Bant, I lost to UW Landstill, Goblins (due to a abyssal misplay), Elves (yeah...) and TES.

[Antonius]

if you go junk, I think you have to give a nod to SFM. dude is insane. I'm tempted to try Naya Loam with him, since I have a hard time believing that an aggressive loam strategy can be good without Seismic assault.

[lavafrogg]

Ahhh, I read my note grind I guess....34 hours of no sleep does that to you I guess. Change explosives to swords to still clear his board.


Ruckus- you are amazing and I am sorry that I knocked you out of contention only to be curb stomped by elves.

I am think I am switching tombstalker to mystic and squeezing in the equipment package. I am not completely sold on knight yet and the 4th wasteland was for sure a mistake not to have.

[lorddotm]

Ahhh, I read my note grind I guess....34 hours of no sleep does that to you I guess. Change explosives to swords to still clear his board.


Ruckus- you are amazing and I am sorry that I knocked you out of contention only to be curb stomped by elves.

I am think I am switching tombstalker to mystic and squeezing in the equipment package. I am not completely sold on knight yet and the 4th wasteland was for sure a mistake not to have.

Don't forget the 4th Bob either, he's the best creature in Legacy.

[PanderAlexander]

Round Four(SDERock)
Game One: We trade some early disruption until wasteland/loam come online he is topping for mana sources while an untimely hymn empties his hand. A 13/13 terravore comes down to end the game very quickly.
Game Two: This game is similar to the first until I make my mistake of the day, which leads to this draw, with a knight in play I attacked with a huge terravore. For some reason I forgot bog existed and power cycled(no loams after siding) to ensure the vore would survive combat(I had the wasteland up for the maze). When he fetched the bog I face palmed and tried to salvage the game but he wound up top-shuffle-top for removal to seal the deal.
Game Three: This game was a beating with me drawing mass removal up the ass and trading 1-1 with deeds and explosives to run him out of gas. By the time I drew a threat to kill him, I had a tombstalker that was swords'd, the game was on turns and the vore could only do so much.


I was watching that game, tough luck when you had lethal with a Tombstalker and he fetched and topped in to a Go for the Throat, then you had a Terravore to kill him in the timed rounds but he topped in to a Maze of Ith.


Don't forget the 4th Bob either, he's the best creature in Legacy.

I thought that was Stoneforge Mystic, a tutor and vial wrapped up in one.

[lavafrogg]

Ok, deck changes after the mix tourney:
+1 terravore
+1 bob
+1 wasteland
+3 stoneforge mystic
+1 jitte/batterskull/sofi
-1 savanah
-1 cycle land
-3 tombstalker
-3 engineered explosives
-1 fetchland

And I also fixed the colors of my fetchlands...

In light testing the deck seems alot better with early mystic being alot stronger than expected... Against decks with removal I went for jitte and equipped it to a tarmo after they killed the mystic. The extra terravore helps in the "combo" kill of the deck with mass dredging... I am alot happier with the fact that I will never take 8 from bob again but I will miss Formosa crypting myself to play a beater.

I really want to get the fourth loam in the list and I'm sad I no longer run the full 8 cycle lands:/. The explosives were removed due to jitte and sword doubling as removal and not wanting to kill my own shit anymore.


@ pander tough luck for sure but if I didn't forget bog existed than I would have won earlier:/ I need to play more than once every couple years in person I guess

[Antonius]

I would play junk like this:

4 Heath
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats
1 Forest
1 Plains
3 Savannah
1 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Cabal Pit
1 Canopy
1 Stronghold
4 Waseland
6 Cycling
4 Mox

4 SFM
4 Bob
4 KotR
1 Terravore
1 Batterer
1 Light & Shadow, Feast and Famine or Lightning Greaves (mainly, you want equips that can protect KoTR/Bob from removal)

4 Swords

2 Deed

4 Vindicate
4 Loam

something like that. I don't think discard is very good with an aggro loam type shell because the commitment to 35 cards to the loam engine means you cant run a real density of discard to screw your opponent's hand consistently.

[Antonius]

double post.

[keys]

Switch the pulses to Deeds.

[CorpT]

Switch the pulses to Deeds.

And blow up your Moxen?

IMO, you can run all 4 colors to get the best of everything:

Dark Confidant
Knight of the Reliquary
Punishing Fire
Seismic Assault

Along with that, the lands to make it work:
Rift Portal
Volrath's Stronghold
Grove of the Burnwillows

I would start with that shell and work out. The mana is there for it.

[Mtre]

And blow up your Moxen?

IMO, you can run all 4 colors to get the best of everything:

Dark Confidant
Knight of the Reliquary
Punishing Fire
Seismic Assault

Along with that, the lands to make it work:
Rift Portal
Volrath's Stronghold
Grove of the Burnwillows

I would start with that shell and work out. The mana is there for it.

Yeah, it's possible. I tried and I'm quite happy with my list. The only thing which is problematic to cast is the Assault. I'm also not sure about the Portal, when you got Loam goin you usually have all colors you need, when not, the Portal is (nearly) useless and just colorscrews you.

[Antonius]

And blow up your Moxen?

If that is the sum total of your analysis on Deed, then you need to play both the card and the deck more. Despite its drawbacks and the potential for friendly fire, Deed is downright insane against a lot the more popular match-ups in the format right now.



IMO, you can run all 4 colors to get the best of everything:

Dark Confidant
Knight of the Reliquary
Punishing Fire
Seismic Assault

Along with that, the lands to make it work:
Rift Portal
Volrath's Stronghold
Grove of the Burnwillows

I would start with that shell and work out. The mana is there for it.

Punishing Fires is not nearly as good as Grim Lavamancer. Hell, I think you'd have a hard time convincing me that KotR is better than Grim Lavamancer. Dude is insane. I've won tons of games with just bob beats and lavamancer shocks its ridiculous. Lavamancer fills a unique roll within the deck, whereas KotR is distinguished by being not quite as good as Countryside Crusher. Stick to three colors, IMO. You don't gain that much from the fourth. STP is nice, but EE, Deed/Pulse and/or Edicts already do the same thing against big guys and Bolt is just straight better against little dudes.

If you really want to experiment with white, then try cutting black for it and abusing SFM. Don't just tack it on, because you're bound to have some color problems if you do.

[CorpT]

Punishing Fires is not nearly as good as Grim Lavamancer. Hell, I think you'd have a hard time convincing me that KotR is better than Grim Lavamancer. Dude is insane. I've won tons of games with just bob beats and lavamancer shocks its ridiculous. Lavamancer fills a unique roll within the deck, whereas KotR is distinguished by being not quite as good as Countryside Crusher. Stick to three colors, IMO. You don't gain that much from the fourth. STP is nice, but EE, Deed/Pulse and/or Edicts already do the same thing against big guys and Bolt is just straight better against little dudes.

If you really want to experiment with white, then try cutting black for it and abusing SFM. Don't just tack it on, because you're bound to have some color problems if you do.

I found Knight to be much better than Crusher. I really like the Lavamancer idea though. I don't know that he needs to be played instead of Punishing Fires though. The two can go together.

If you take Seismic out for Lavamancer, the mana requirements for everything become very easy. It's not like you're running any BB or GG cards at that point.

I like Deed a lot. But it seems to have a lot of anti-synergies with a lot of other cards. Mox, Chalice, Lavamancer, plus any other creatures you want to play. I'm not sure you need that much sweet when you could be playing more versatile ones like Lavamancer and Pulse.

[Antonius]

No way Knight can ever be better than Crusher in this deck. In other decks, yeah, but in a deck with 27 land, you want Crusher because he gets you the goods. If crusher stuck long enough for you to untap, chances are you will crush into removal (and win the game) or dudes (and have some gas for recovery if they get some removal) or you get loam (then the growth rate on crusher goes exponential and he essentially becomes the abyss) or you reveal diamond, which sucks, but happens a lot less than the other awesome scenarios.

The best Knight can manage is +3/+3 per turn or +2/+2 if you're trying to convert forests into wastelands to wear your opponent down. I suppose generating more mana during your main phase is pretty awesome too, but I generally don't want to tap my biggest creature to do something other than attack if I'm facing down a weenie deck. And if I'm not attacking against my opponent's empty board...then what the fuck am I doing exactly?
Knight doesn't fix your draw and getting more wastelands can be real good in a pickle but isn't always relevant when you can just get more wastelands via loam. Furthermore, the number one thing you want to do in this deck (cast life from the loam) shrinks knight, sometimes even into burn range! Seeing your three drop eat shit on a lightning bolt is terrible and I've killed more than a handful of knights with bolts to know that well enough. Knight doesn't play well with Lavamancer and Lavamancer is insanely good. Ever get a board of Lavamancer/Crusher? or Lavamancer/Seismic? Get your nut coming and going on the train to value town?

Knight also dies to Perish and loses to relic/crypt. If you're in Jund (the best colors for you to be in) then you can actually board perishes of your own and just destroy green decks. Goyf is your only green creature and he's the worst creature in the deck anyways.

Last thing I'll say on deed: You need some kind of sweeper if you're in Junk colors and Deed is the only sweeper you have. If you're in Jund, then yeah, play Seismic instead because Seismic is insane. But after boarding, Seismic is less consistently awesome because your opponents can bring in yard hate or needle type effects. Deed sweeps without Loam, crushes Affinity and gives you traction against dredge. Deed also helps you recover from a slow start and just dominates your opponent if it sticks on an open board. Don't be so antsy about collateral damage. Most of the time, you'd be willing to trade a mox and a deed for your opponent's hiearch, bob and goyf. Trust me on this: deed is a card you want in your sideboard.

[CorpT]

I don't think you're giving Knight a fair shake at all. I tested both and always wanted Knight over Crusher.

Crusher comes into play as a 3/3. Knight doesn't have to and most of the time it doesn't. Sure, you can cycle and fetch to make Crusher bigger on your turn, but you don't always have that. Knight can certainly manage more than +3/+3 a turn. Cycling lands and dredging puts lands into your yard as well. All without tapping your Knight to tutor. Crusher is far more vulnerable to Lightning Bolt than Knight. No question.

Knight also tutors. That means you can play specialty lands and get them when you need them. Maze. Tabernacle. Wasteland. Horizon Canopy. Grove of Burnwillows. Volrath's Stronghold. Bojuka Bog. Knight can fetch all of those. Crusher cannot.

The key to me is that Knight is good when you're behind and need a big creature now. Knight comes into play big. Crusher... doesn't. Crusher helps when you're already winning, but doesn't always get you to winning. Playing a Crusher without some type of backup, either Dark Confidant or Loam can strand you on land. If you don't have a way of drawing more land, he can be more of a liability than an asset.

I'm really having a hard time with this. All of the testing I and my group has done has shown that Knight far outclasses Crusher. Maybe it's a different style of deck or play, but Knight is a good reason to play white. He's that good.

[Antonius]

Cycling lands and Dredging apply to both Knight and Crusher. There wasn't a point in putting that up. Knight gets axed by Relics and Crypts. I've killed multiple Knights with Nihil Spellbong + Devastating dreams. I've shot knights with Lavamancers then cracked crypts. Its awesome. Crusher does not lose against those lines of play, only against Leyline... and Knight usually loses to Leyline too. Also, Crusher is never awkward with loam. Ever.

Of the specialty lands you mentioned the only truly necessary one is wasteland, which you can always use loam to get more of. Volrath's is great. I run it but I found the contingency to only be relevant in truly long games. Those other lands you mentioned, you generally don't need and can just end up screwing you when you draw them in an opening hand. I mean i would love to keep a hand of taiga, maze, the nuts... but you need to be able to cast the nuts. Maze doesn't do that.

Crusher isn't only good when you're winning. Crusher wins you games. Does knight bypass three lands to get you a maelstrom pulse when you're facing down double bob or double goyf? Or EE when you're up against a tapped out opponent with bob/SFM and batterer in hand? Of course, those are idealized examples, because what you reveal after crushing lands is random, but it still stands to reason that because this deck is all bombs, getting anything other than a land would drastically improve any of those situations. If you're up against bob/goyf or tapped out opponent with SFM/Bob, then ee, bolt, pulse or seismic all lead to insane plays. Revealing a bob of your own allows you to catch up, revealing a goyf allows you to start swinging without hemorrhaging revealing another crusher probably means that your opponent has to draw removal or lose in a turn or two (even batterer can't beat two crushers), especially if you already have loam. The only thing that wouldn't help is revealing loam (if you already have it...) or mox diamond - and that's an acceptable percentage to me.

Crusher is so much better and more robust than Knight in the context of this deck that it's not even a question. You run 4 crusher, then, maybe if you're in white you can add a knight or two. Not the other way around.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

So, I'm gonna repost my question from a couple months ago. I'm interested in putting this deck together as my second Legacy deck (other one is Merfolk), because I like the strategy, and I have a lot of the crucial cards. The important stuff I have is 2 Taiga, 1 Bayou, 1 Savannah, 1 Scrubland, 1 Badlands, 1 Mox Diamond, 2 Knight of the Reliquary, 3 Dark Confidant, playsets of Loam, Terravores, Wastelands, and a couple other cards that are worth minor loot.

I'm not really sure if I should go three color or four color. The duals I own are actually slightly more friendly to a four color deck, I think, but I don't want to be super soft to Wasteland.

The important stuff I would have to buy, as I figure it, is 3 more Moxes, X Goyfs, X fetch-lands, and X more dual lands. Plus moderately expensive stuff like 1 more Confidant or 2 more Knights, etc. I'd really like to run a version with either 1 or zero Tarmogoyf, since I don't own any and I think he's kinda dumb, etc. But only if I can find a version that I feel is optimal with a low number of Goyfs. I was thinking perhaps Green Sun's Zenith could be an option worth exploring, although probably only as like a 2-of. As far as fetch-lands, I have sets of Scalding Tarn and Misty Rainforest, but I figure that being able to fetch basics is pretty important, so I may have to buy most of the fetches I use.

So, anyways, I was wondering if anyone has advice based on all these qualifiers. Should I build Aggro Loam? If so, what colors should I use? How can I make the best deck with what I have, and not end up spending more than like a couple hundred bucks, ideally? Etc. Thanks in advance to any kind souls who have guidance on this.

[Careve]

Crusher is so much better and more robust than Knight in the context of this deck that it's not even a question. You run 4 crusher, then, maybe if you're in white you can add a knight or two. Not the other way around.

I'm more with CorpT. The main KoTR asset to me was that she usually enters the battlefield being at least 4/4 which makes her resistant to a single burn spell or Nacatl. I have often felt like I have to treat Crusher as some capricious primadona as you have to have some cycleland in your hand or a fourth land as a fetch to keep Crusher away from burn or simply do not even block with him in the first turn as he would die from almost any attacker.

Anyways, I tried many many Loam variations (standard BRG, with or without Bob/KoTR, BRGw, Bg, RG, Naya with Enlightened Tutor), all of them were without Mox Diamond (as I do not have them and neither want to play with them seeing how Loam underperforms in big events and people complain about the deck when not having the Mox in their starting hands), and came up with Naya (with tiny B splash) version as the best so far.

26 Lands
Windswept Heath 4
Verdant Catacombs 4
Plains 1
Forest 1
Taiga 1
Savannah 1
Plateau 1
Badlands 1

Forgotten Cave 3 (the minimum amount just to enable double loam in a turn for assault)

Wasteland 4
Kor Haven 1 (should be Maze of Ith)
Volrath's Stronghold 1
Grove of the Burnwillows 1
Sejiri Steppe 1
Bojuka Bog 1

Aggro package:
4 Wild Nacatl
2 Figure of Destiny
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Kitchen Finks (had to include something to help me against burn or aggro decks)

Removal:
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Path to Exile
3 Punishing Fire
3 Engineered Explosives

3 Seismic Assault (removal and win-con)

Control stuff:
3 Life from the Loam
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Crop Rotation

SB:
Sideboard Name
3 Chalice of the Void
4 Mindbreak Trap
2 Raven's Crime
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Punishing Fire
1 Path to Exile
1 Crop Rotation
1 Glacial Chasm

As you can see, I play very lightweight creatures for two reasons:
1) they can be dropped very early and fight against aggro (Nacatl is especially good in that) allowing me to stall until Assault-Loam;
2) they give me a fairly quick clock against combo;
I won many games by simply dropping two Nacatls and clearing the way by my removal (just like zoo). On paper it looks like I have too few creatures to maintain a good early pressure, but it really works for me (many of my opponents found Nacatl suprisingly good in this deck).

SDT is the latest addition and I'm extremely satisfied with it so far. It lets you dig through your lands and if you see 3 cards that are completely unnecessary, then you can simply dredge by exactly 3 by your Loam. Very good combination for deep digging (and looking for new threats or answers). Basically I dig for answers/threats instead of direct drawing via cyclelands.

Crop rotation allows me to play my land toolbox: it can be another wasteland, midgame CA engine in Volrath's Stronghold, Grove (for punishing fire), gravehate in Bojuka (useful even against zoo by unexpectedly reducing goyfs and KotRs), combat trick in Sejiri or Maze of Ith.

I won my local tourney, but it was too small to prove anything (won (and drew) against Big Zoo, Mighty Quinn, PSI combo), however in playtests it performed fairly well against many tier1 or less competetive decks.
I'm not sure if I'm damn lucky or what, but I have no problems with Combo decks (my meta has fully built decks like ANT, QSI, Belcher, Solidarity). In fact, I have nearly 100% score against them. Of course, as you can see, I have dedicated a lot of SB slots for combo matchups, but that really helps me to get wins against them.

[ESG]

Anyways, I tried many many Loam variations (standard BRG, with or without Bob/KoTR, BRGw, Bg, RG, Naya with Enlightened Tutor), all of them were without Mox Diamond (as I do not have them and neither want to play with them seeing how Loam underperforms in big events and people complain about the deck when not having the Mox in their starting hands) ...

I highly recommend at least testing Mox Diamond before you discount its power. Yes, I wish I could start every game with one in my opening hand, but every deck wants to see its key cards in the opening seven.

Your list is interesting (looks mostly like Big Zoo rather than a loam deck), although it seems to go in all directions at once. Let us know how it fares in future events, especially any large ones.

[Anarky87]

Sorry in advance for necro. I'm thinking of picking up Aggro Loam as my secondary deck (something not blue), but I'm not sure what lists look like For RGb or RGw. I've also been messing around with a B/g build (more controllish) that got 64th at GP: Providence. Is anyone able to provide updated decklists for either of the two previous builds? Thank you.

[Richard Cheese]

Sorry in advance for necro. I'm thinking of picking up Aggro Loam as my secondary deck (something not blue), but I'm not sure what lists look like For RGb or RGw. I've also been messing around with a B/g build (more controllish) that got 64th at GP: Providence. Is anyone able to provide updated decklists for either of the two previous builds? Thank you.

+1
I would love to see some updated deck lists and maybe even a refresh on the primer. Aggro Loam seems fairly well situated against the current meta based on how I've seen it function in the past.

[sdematt]

I ran some games against TA the other day and did some wonderful crush-ery:

4 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Mountain
1 Forest (I feel like I need a Swamp also, but we'll see)
4 Wasteland
4 Forgotten Cave
3 Tranquil Thicket
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Taiga
2 Bayou
1 Badlands

4 Countryside Crusher
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
1 Eternal Witness
1 Terravore

2 Sylvan Library
2 Go for the Throat
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Dismember
2 Terminate
3 Seismic Assault
4 Life from the Loam
4 Mox Diamond

BOARD:
2 Thrun
2 Krosan Grip
1 Ancient Grudge
3 Extirpate
2 Pyroblast
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Perish


I also crushed some Stoneforge builds, as well.

-Matt

[Anarky87]

Nice. I was leaning more towards the RGb version, but really was needing to buy some of the last pieces so I could go either way. Sucks that I recently traded Taiga's and Bayou's for some Jace that I haven't even used yet... >.<

The removal package seems pretty nice. How have your matchups against Zoo and Merfolk been? I only was able to play against 'Folk a couple games and some bad draws on my part coupled with god draws both times on his part left a bad taste in my house.

[sdematt]

It's not terrible against Folk. If I can get some creatures down, even if I don't get Loam online, I have bigger guys and 8 pieces of removal, so it's usually alright. Out of the board, Deed makes it even better. If I get Assault online, it's obviously game, as I just mow down their guys or go nuts and go for the face. I usually don't land Assault against Merfolk though; Most competent players save the counterspells for that.

Zoo I haven't tried much, but I'll have to see. We're pretty slow, but I'm hoping removal coupled with Deed out of the board and big guys should give us enough to get there. Sylvan Library is a great addition to Dark Confidant, as Confidant doesn't always stick around in this matchup :P

-Matt

[ESG]

How have your matchups against Zoo and Merfolk been?

Merfolk used to have a really hard time answering a quick Dark Confidant, although with builds adopting Dismember, that could change. I play a build with no Bobs but more mass removal (more similar to the G/B deck you spoke of), and Firespout and Engineered Explosives shine in both of those matchups. And yeah, Seismic Assault with Loam is game-winning against any aggro matchup.

@ Sdematt: Am I reading that right? You're playing no Moxes?

[sdematt]

No, I'm playing Moxes, it's just I was doing the list off the top of my head, and I forgot. I'll edit it.

Re: Firespout
I was playing that card for forever in Dreadstill, and in the board of this deck, and it never gets you there against Folk, unless it's very early. I mean, don't get me wrong, it does a fine job, but I never found I won games because of it. I know Deed wrecks your Moxen, and possibly your other permanents, but it kills everything. If you need to Deed at 3 and kill your Seismic Assault, you're probably already dead. Killing Moxen isn't fun, but sometimes you have to do things to win.

That's just my two cents. I can always try Firespout again, but killing Artifact lands, artifacts, enchantments, and all that other junk is great as well. I'm sure you can combine both in the same sideboard, but right now, Perish is serving double duty. With all the NO Rug, Maverick, and such around, wiping their board, coupled with Deed, will hopefully be devastating.

-Matt

[Antonius]

Dismember seems like an awful idea. Do you really want to pay a total of 7 life for a removal spell?

Run Bolt and Lavamancer. You won't regret it.

[DragoFireheart]

This deck seems like it's in a very good position to take over the meta now that Counterbalance has disappeared off the face of the earth.

How well does this deck fare against Merfolk, Team America, and Zoo?

[Richard Cheese]

I guess CotV is a thing of the past. Anyone care to offer a comparison between RGw and RGb lists?

[Koby]

How well does this deck fare against Merfolk, Team America, and Zoo?

Merfolk - 50/50. They only need to counter Seismic Assault and Devastating Dreams. They can tap down any of your big blockers with Reejerey.

Team America - positive due to Wasteland recursion.

Zoo - positive if you're playing Devastating Dreams. 55/45 otherwise, mostly due to their burn. Builds with EE and CotV fare better.

[lorddotm]

Merfolk - 50/50. They only need to counter Seismic Assault and Devastating Dreams. They can tap down any of your big blockers with Reejerey.

Team America - positive due to Wasteland recursion.

Zoo - positive if you're playing Devastating Dreams. 55/45 otherwise, mostly due to their burn. Builds with EE and CotV fare better.

Are you just pulling these numbers out of your ass? Tony literally sits on Merfolk's face and shits all over it, every single time. You are a nonblue deck with Goyf, they can only attack if they have a Reejery, and with 4 Bolt, 2 Lavamancer, 3 Seismic, 2 Pulse, and 2 EE, how is that thing living long enough to matter.

I think the card Life from the Loam just straight up beats every control/tempo blue deck. The fact that BUG has smaller creatures and with no way to remove from the game, Volrath's Stronghold will beat them in the long game. The only time they can be scary is when they land a Jace and protect it for multiple turns while it is Brainstorming/Fatesealing, but even then, he usually doesn't beat Life from the Loam.

The Zoo match up definitely seems somewhat tricky on paper, but Seismic will always resolve, so just crush them with that, pretty much every aggro deck will get steam rolled by Aggro Loam.

The problem match ups for Aggro Loam are anything that tries to play in an unfair manner (every combo deck, although Painter Stone can be easy sometimes thanks to Grudges).

[Anarky87]

I think I'm gonna start out with Antonius's build for awhile and see how that feels. I like the idea of Lavamancer being able to gun down merfolk's team. It's kinda funny, in the 10-15 games I've played so far, I've only seen SA once, and it got countered. Still wanting to actually see/land one and go to town on people.

[Koby]

This is from playtesting last year. Merfolk will and can race you, especially when they counter your key cards.

I'd be interested to see the results from your testing, and whether the pilot knew what he was doing, because your post smacks of hyperbole. Granted, my list did not run Bolt and Grim Lavamancer. These are not widely accepted cards in the list; so it's a valid concern.

Can you build Aggro Loam to beat specific matchups? Sure!

Depending on the build of Zoo, they may just be too fast for you, and to follow up with Fireblast, Bolts, Chains, etc. If you run Devastating Dreams, then it's much easier. Without, you rely too much on Seismic (which is only a 3 of). Zoo also typically play 3-4 Pridemages, which will stop the Assaults.

You're assuming that Aggro Loam draws perfectly every game, and has all the necessary accel, bombs, and removal. This is a fallacy, and doesn't aid any discussion of actual gameplay.

[sdematt]

Dismember is just fine. Sometimes you're off colour, or sometimes you want to only pay 1 mana.

-Matt

[lorddotm]

This is from playtesting last year. Merfolk will and can race you, especially when they counter your key cards.

I'd be interested to see the results from your testing, and whether the pilot knew what he was doing, because your post smacks of hyperbole. Granted, my list did not run Bolt and Grim Lavamancer. These are not widely accepted cards in the list; so it's a valid concern.

Can you build Aggro Loam to beat specific matchups? Sure!

Depending on the build of Zoo, they may just be too fast for you, and to follow up with Fireblast, Bolts, Chains, etc. If you run Devastating Dreams, then it's much easier. Without, you rely too much on Seismic (which is only a 3 of). Zoo also typically play 3-4 Pridemages, which will stop the Assaults.

You're assuming that Aggro Loam draws perfectly every game, and has all the necessary accel, bombs, and removal. This is a fallacy, and doesn't aid any discussion of actual gameplay.

Talking about when a deck shits on itself doesn't actually help anything. I think that Tony has the perfect Aggro Loam list, so when I'm talking about it, I'm referring to that list, I'm going to go out on a limb and say the list you were using was suboptimal.

[Koby]

Talking about when a deck shits on itself doesn't actually help anything. I think that Tony has the perfect Aggro Loam list, so when I'm talking about it, I'm referring to that list, I'm going to go out on a limb and say the list you were using was suboptimal.

Perhaps it's suboptimal now. But I also have tournament data to back it up the list I ran.

http://www.mtgstats.com/Tournament.aspx?TournamentID=618

[Koby]

I ran into the following decks: (I didn't take notes on SBing, so these are guesses as to what I did - I literally built the SB 5 minutes before the tourney and haven't played the deck in over 4 months)

Round 1: Reanimtor (2-0)
SB:
+4 Leyline of the Void
-2 Devastating Dreams -2 EE

Round 2: CB-Top Thopters (2-0)
SB:
+2 Seismic Assault +3 Krosan Grip
-1 Countryside Crusher -1 Devastating Dreams -2 Maelstrom Pulse -1 KotR

Round 3: 4c Deed-still (2-0)
SB:
+3 Seismic Assault +3 Krosan Grip +1 Eternal Witness
-1 Countryside Crusher -1 Devastating Dreams -2 EE -1 KotR -2 Maelstrom Pulse

Round 4: Rgb Goblins (2-1)
SB for Game 2:
-3 Dark Confidant -1 Maelstrom Pulse
+3 Firespout +1 Pernicious Deed

SB for Game 3:
-4 Chalice
+1 Dark Confidant +1 Eternal Witness +1 Maelstrom Pulse +1 Seismic Assault

I completely messed up game 2 SB and didn't realize until I started the game. This is where the lack of SB experience showed, but I managed to get control of the game at 2 life and overcome his Wort.

I also noticed a lot of decks just scoop to Chalice @1, which is refreshing since I hate playing the long game vs blue decks with Jace, the Mindsculptor. Also, I like Seismic Assault better in the sideboard as it is a very mana intense card, and not that great against aggro decks. It's a good transformation when your opponents bring in creature hate and you side out a few dorks for the Seismic plan. In those matches, you have time to reach the late game to allow S.Assault to become inevitable. Also, even with the prevalence of g/y strategies - I did not run into any graveyard hate.

One last note: there was not a single Dredge deck in the tournament due to the card being banned online for game rules reasons. This may contribute to why there was a lack of yard hate, and made my matches a bit easier.

In case you're wondering. I back my statements up with results. Please show me your (and not Tony's) results, before you throw stones.

More examples of recent placing Aggro Loam (notice lack of Bolts/Lavamancer)
http://www.mtgstats.com/Deck.aspx?DeckID=329886 [6/12/11]
http://www.mtgstats.com/Deck.aspx?DeckID=318573 [5/27/11]
http://www.mtgstats.com/Deck.aspx?DeckID=318421 [5/27/11]

[Antonius]

In case you're wondering. I back my statements up with results. Please show me your (and not Tony's) results, before you throw stones.

You've seen my mox emerald right?

[Koby]

You've seen my mox emerald right?

No, actually I haven't. I've heard about it. Aggro Loam was a good choice, and I still think that Lavamancer/Bolt is a good plan (at least better plan than CotV). I am adding more beef to the discussion by showing instances of Aggro Loam decks with Knight of the Reliquary AND Crusher, not instead of.

I still stand by my statement that KotR is insanely good in Aggro Loam.

[lorddotm]

In case you're wondering. I back my statements up with results. Please show me your (and not Tony's) results, before you throw stones.

More examples of recent placing Aggro Loam (notice lack of Bolts/Lavamancer)
http://www.mtgstats.com/Deck.aspx?DeckID=329886 [6/12/11]
http://www.mtgstats.com/Deck.aspx?DeckID=318573 [5/27/11]
http://www.mtgstats.com/Deck.aspx?DeckID=318421 [5/27/11]

I play decks that can kill on turn 1, aka not this deck ever. Not being able to use Tony's results in this argument is equivalent to not being able to use scientific discoveries that I didn't make when talking about climate change or whatever. Facts are facts, who discovered them doesn't actually matter.

[Koby]

I play decks that can kill on turn 1

Then your opinion is not worth much in this thread, especially if it concerns specific matchups.

I value Tony's opinion on the deck, because he has played it, played it well, and has found a list that is optimal for his needs. I have played around with this deck, adjusted to the metagame at hand, and succeeded. The choices I made are valid and proved to be so.

You chiming in stating XYZ, without having played the deck is not useful. Moreso, you are supporting an unpopular list and discounting valid and powerful choices for the archetype that you have no basis to backup.

[sdematt]

Really? Settle down, children.

Do we really need the back and forth? You can still have two lists without one being suboptimal.

-Matt

[ESG]

Dismember seems like an awful idea. Do you really want to pay a total of 7 life for a removal spell? Run Bolt and Lavamancer. You won't regret it.

I meant that some Merfolk decks are running Dismember (and thus could answer a quick Confidant if they lacked a FOW). I'm not aware of Aggro Loam builds running Dismember, but I generally feel it to be a decent card. Lavamancer is huge against Merfolk if it resolves. I was not very happy with Bolt in my testing, but I'm sure some builds can use it to the best of its potential.

[lorddotm]

Then your opinion is not worth much in this thread, especially if it concerns specific matchups.

I value Tony's opinion on the deck, because he has played it, played it well, and has found a list that is optimal for his needs. I have played around with this deck, adjusted to the metagame at hand, and succeeded. The choices I made are valid and proved to be so.

You chiming in stating XYZ, without having played the deck is not useful. Moreso, you are supporting an unpopular list and discounting valid and powerful choices for the archetype that you have no basis to backup.

I played Aggro Loam right before I switched to Storm, for a like a year. I know the basics about the deck.

I don't really see any list but Tony's putting up results, so I don't think other lists are really valid. Tony has already said why Knight isn't as good as Crusher, mainly the fact that it is graveyard dependent and game 2 and 3 that is very bad.

[sdematt]

I can bet you I can put up results on Tuesday night, if you ask me to play the deck for Tuesday.

-Matt

[Antonius]

I can bet you I can put up results on Tuesday night, if you ask me to play the deck for Tuesday.

-Matt

Do we know you, Ser? Are you a west coaster?

Koby -
you know my opinions on all the cards. I feel that my 75% (+/- 5ish%) lifetime record with the list since I started playing it back in december speaks for itself. You've personally been to every tournament where i've done well and I don't think I need to elaborate any further. If you don't recall some of our discussions IRL you can just flip back in the thread where I address KoTR, Lavamancer, Bolt and Chalice and am mostly ignored.

[Koby]

I agree with you on the CotV, but I still think you haven't given KotR enough testing. I've had nothing but fun/crushing with it in Aggro Loam about this time last year, and I don't see how the metagame is any worse (in fact, more favorable) to the Knight. Crusher is still boss, and I don't advocate cutting him all together from the deck - merely shaving off 1 to make the curve fit nicer along with Knights. I don't like Crusher against Jace decks, and that's where he's weaker - I think there's also going to be many more Jaces creeping into Legacy now that he's both cheaper and more prevalent after being banned in Standard. KotR has, in all the decks I've played him in, been so useful in Wasting my opponent backs into the stone age that I can't imagine trying to be too cutesy with him. He also has amazing synergy with Crusher as you're aware.

It allows you a 2nd method to control the game when you don't have Life from the Loam - and in that aspect it's indispensible.

[Antonius]

I agree with you on the CotV, but I still think you haven't given KotR enough testing. I've had nothing but fun/crushing with it in Aggro Loam about this time last year, and I don't see how the metagame is any worse (in fact, more favorable) to the Knight. Crusher is still boss, and I don't advocate cutting him all together from the deck - merely shaving off 1 to make the curve fit nicer along with Knights. I don't like Crusher against Jace decks, and that's where he's weaker - I think there's also going to be many more Jaces creeping into Legacy now that he's both cheaper and more prevalent after being banned in Standard. KotR has, in all the decks I've played him in, been so useful in Wasting my opponent backs into the stone age that I can't imagine trying to be too cutesy with him. He also has amazing synergy with Crusher as you're aware.

It allows you a 2nd method to control the game when you don't have Life from the Loam - and in that aspect it's indispensible.

I might try it in conjunction with one of the alternatives i've listed later in this post. But for the established list, KoTR doesn't play well with Lavamancer. I can see how KoTR can stop jace if he comes in two turns before, but heads up he still gets bounced. Lavamancer is far more likely to come down early and an active lavamancer creates real problems for Jace.

@ESG:

Someone just posted a list with Dismember last page. You saw that, right?

what were you mainly testing against? There are definitely matchups where Bolt isn't amazing but given the way the format has progressed from all Goyfs and KotRs to SFMs, Bobs, Heirarchs, cliques and mirran crusaders, Bolt as removal is amazing against ~50% of the format. Bant aggro presents some interesting problems for my removal package though, one i only recently discovered. If merfolk uses mental misstep to counter bolt you generally dont care because you know you'll draw more removal or a Tarmogoyf wall or something that will crush them. Other blue decks tend to pitch their missteps to Force; Bant doesn't run force. They misstep lightning bolt then slap Fire/Ice or Feast/Famine on the offending creature and get way obnoxious. Granted, if they dont' have Misstep, bolt still torches every single dude in their deck save KoTR. I'll have to test the matchup more (from what I played it was still ~50%, but that's way too low for an aggro deck) but I have started considering alternatives.
1. Punishing Fires/Grove. I know I've talked it down in the past but it is powerful. Unfortunately it screws with the balance of your manabase thus making black that much harder to access. Cutting down on fetches also reduces the overall power of your Loam
2. I'm a big fan of Arc Trail. That card is an engine to value town.
3. Mas EE is never a bad idea. Cutting 1cmc spells means you lose a lot of speed and responsiveness but EE opens up possibilities of 2 or 3-for-1's thus rewarding you greatly for your slower play.
4. Black Removal: Pulse is versatile but slow. Deed is slow and unwieldy but creates massive value. Dismember costs seven life after you flip it off confidant. Smother/Terminate/Throat all feel subpar compared to the effectiveness of 1 mana - bolt which rides roughshod over elves, goblins zoo and every other aggro deck in the format. Well, i suppose that's the same with everything. Mental misstep throws forks in all kinds of great cards.

ah, and lastly before I forget: none of these cards, save pulse, are really great at killing Jace, as Lightning Bolt frequently is.

[Koby]

What about Crime / Punishment as a semi-Deed effect? It seems more specific (:1::g::b: Wrath Zoo), but has to be shot once. It does deal with Jace/Moat without wrathing yourself however.

[ESG]

It's been some time since I tested Bolt. I would be open to testing it again. (I still see more Goyfs on average than Stoneforge Mystics, though.) There was a period where I was seeing a number of Reanimator and Show and Tell decks, along with the Tarmogoyf decks, which shifted me to Swords to Plowshares.

I like Arc Trail, too. I run Grove/Fires in my build and really like it, although it is somewhat slower. It's decent against Jace. My list runs more like Control than Aggro (it has a wishboard), which is why I wasn't posting in this thread before. But now it seems like people are exploring the archetype more, so maybe there's greater interest in variants.

Yeah, I just saw Dismember in sdematt's list.

[GGoober]

I think the no-Chalice builds are more viable these days with combo being pushed out of favor. My main problem with Aggro-Loam is: If you don't open with a Mox hand, or have your 1st 2cmc play countered, you are pretty behind in the game. It really sucks to have a no Mox hand and pass the turn while your opponents start developing. Usually, it's not that bad since the turn 1 plays in Legacy don't win games immediately (except combo which was this deck's worst nightmare).

The no Chalice builds allow for turn 1 Lavamancer/StP/Bolt plays that follow up to a 2nd play. This is pretty nice for sure. Any advice if RGB or RGw lists are better these days? I'm still leaning towards Bobs because the deck is not as good without him. He's a little fragile, but he's one of those must-answer bombs, along with everything else in the deck. I've tried to fit 2 PFires + 2 Groves in my build, because they're great in the loam shell, and help cover the weaker tribal matchups the deck sometimes face. Lavamancer is great, but Merfolk these days pack dismembers. Not that it makes Lavamancer worse, but that's an issue where your key card against the matchup is no longer unanswerable. PFires (I've done lots of testing with PFires in other decks) is pretty amazing against anything that is tribal, and is pretty incredible against SFM/Hierarch/Clique.decks that pop up these days (also it is MM-proof)

[sdematt]

Antonius, I'm a West Coaster, but not LA. I'm from Vancouver.

I see the point of having T1 plays without Mox, but also, turning off Mental Misstep is kind of hot. Should this be the reason to NOT run cards? Of course not, but I just think it's kind of fun to have them hold dead cards.

Crime/Punishment doesn't deal with Jace, unforts. Pulse does! :)

-Matt

[Koby]

Doh - you're right. I didn't read until the end of Punishment. Pulse is still the preferred maindeck catchall. I like EE to suppliment it as well, with all the weenies running around.

[Antonius]

crime/punishment also flips for 7 off bob. Not the goods.

As for turning off misstep:

The only matchup where I wish i didn't have to play through misstep was SFM Bant, and that's generally because of their equipment.

[Anarky87]

Artifacts
4 Mox Diamond (http://sales.starcitygames.com//cardsearch.php?singlesearch=Mox+Diamond)

Creatures
3 Countryside Crusher (http://sales.starcitygames.com//cardsearch.php?singlesearch=Countryside+Crusher)
4 Dark Confidant (http://sales.starcitygames.com//cardsearch.php?singlesearch=Dark+Confidant)
4 Knight of the Reliquary (http://sales.starcitygames.com//cardsearch.php?singlesearch=Knight+of+the+Reliquary)
4 Tarmogoyf (http://sales.starcitygames.com//cardsearch.php?singlesearch=Tarmogoyf)

Enchantments
1 Sylvan Library (http://sales.starcitygames.com//cardsearch.php?singlesearch=Sylvan+Library)

Instants
2 Punishing Fire (http://sales.starcitygames.com//cardsearch.php?singlesearch=Punishing+Fire)
2 Swords to Plowshares (http://sales.starcitygames.com//cardsearch.php?singlesearch=Swords+to+Plowshares)

Sorceries
3 Burning Wish (http://sales.starcitygames.com//cardsearch.php?singlesearch=Burning+Wish)
2 Devastating Dreams (http://sales.starcitygames.com//cardsearch.php?singlesearch=Devastating+Dreams)
3 Life from the Loam (http://sales.starcitygames.com//cardsearch.php?singlesearch=Life+from+the+Loam)
2 Vindicate (http://sales.starcitygames.com//cardsearch.php?singlesearch=Vindicate)
1 Worm Harvest (http://sales.starcitygames.com//cardsearch.php?singlesearch=Worm+Harvest)

Basic Lands
1 Forest (http://sales.starcitygames.com//cardsearch.php?singlesearch=Forest)

Lands
1 Badlands (http://sales.starcitygames.com//cardsearch.php?singlesearch=Badlands)
1 Bayou (http://sales.starcitygames.com//cardsearch.php?singlesearch=Bayou)
1 Dust Bowl (http://sales.starcitygames.com//cardsearch.php?singlesearch=Dust+Bowl)
3 Forgotten Cave (http://sales.starcitygames.com//cardsearch.php?singlesearch=Forgotten+Cave)
3 Grove of the Burnwillows (http://sales.starcitygames.com//cardsearch.php?singlesearch=Grove+of+the+Burnwillows)
1 Maze of Ith (http://sales.starcitygames.com//cardsearch.php?singlesearch=Maze+of+Ith)
1 Plateau (http://sales.starcitygames.com//cardsearch.php?singlesearch=Plateau)
1 Riftstone Portal (http://sales.starcitygames.com//cardsearch.php?singlesearch=Riftstone+Portal)
1 Savannah (http://sales.starcitygames.com//cardsearch.php?singlesearch=Savannah)
1 Taiga (http://sales.starcitygames.com//cardsearch.php?singlesearch=Taiga)
2 Tranquil Thicket (http://sales.starcitygames.com//cardsearch.php?singlesearch=Tranquil+Thicket)
1 Verdant Catacombs (http://sales.starcitygames.com//cardsearch.php?singlesearch=Verdant+Catacombs)
2 Wasteland (http://sales.starcitygames.com//cardsearch.php?singlesearch=Wasteland)
1 Windswept Heath (http://sales.starcitygames.com//cardsearch.php?singlesearch=Windswept+Heath)
4 Wooded Foothills (http://sales.starcitygames.com//cardsearch.php?singlesearch=Wooded+Foothills)

Legendary Lands
1 Karakas (http://sales.starcitygames.com//cardsearch.php?singlesearch=Karakas)

Sideboard:
1 Tormod's Crypt (http://sales.starcitygames.com//cardsearch.php?singlesearch=Tormod%27s+Crypt)
2 Choke (http://sales.starcitygames.com//cardsearch.php?singlesearch=Choke)
3 Leyline of the Void (http://sales.starcitygames.com//cardsearch.php?singlesearch=Leyline+of+the+Void)
3 Red Elemental Blast (http://sales.starcitygames.com//cardsearch.php?singlesearch=Red+Elemental+Blast)
1 Devastating Dreams (http://sales.starcitygames.com//cardsearch.php?singlesearch=Devastating+Dreams)
1 Life from the Loam (http://sales.starcitygames.com//cardsearch.php?singlesearch=Life+from+the+Loam)
1 Perish (http://sales.starcitygames.com//cardsearch.php?singlesearch=Perish)
1 Pulverize (http://sales.starcitygames.com//cardsearch.php?singlesearch=Pulverize)
1 Retribution of the Meek (http://sales.starcitygames.com//cardsearch.php?singlesearch=Retribution+of+the+Meek)
1 Nomad Stadium (http://sales.starcitygames.com//cardsearch.php?singlesearch=Nomad+Stadium)

Micah Greenbaum just took first at SCG Baltimore with that 4c Aggro Loam list.

[kusumoto]

I love seeing Devastating Dreams used again. That card is a house against so much.

I'm pleasantly surprised it's been good with all of this blue running around.

[honz]

before this weekend's legacy tournament, i lent my enchantress deck to my friend in exchange for his aggro loam deck. i played around with it some, and ended up with this list going into the tournament:

1 maze of ith
1 bojuka bog
1 volrath's stronghold
1 dryad arbor

4 wasteland
2 taiga
1 badlands
1 bayou
1 plateau
4 wooded foothills
1 bloodstained mire
3 grove of burnwillows
4 forgotten cave
2 tranquil thicket
4 mox diamond

4 dark confidant
4 countryside crusher
3 tarmogoyf
3 knight of reliquary
2 grim lavamancer
1 birds of paradise

4 life from the loam
3 green sun's zenith
3 punishing fire
2 maelstrom pulse

sideboard:
4 leyline of the void
4 chalice of the void
3 cabal therapy
2 ancient grudge
2 gaddock teeg

Match 1 - rbg something (stoneforge mystic, lavamancer, confidant, discard)
g1: keep hand of mox, confidant, fatty, and some land. He burns my confidant, and topdecks 3 wastelands to keep me on 2 lands. Eventually i hit loam, start recurring wastelands until hes has no lands. Kotr beats for the win.
g2: -1 bog, -1 lavamancer +2 ancient grudge
keep hand of confidant, goyf, cycler, and lands. He opens with lavamancer, which i feed my confidant to, making my next turn goyf bigger. He swords a pair of my goyfs, and drops stoneforge mystic. I rip punishing fire off the top, and combined with my grove already in play, i burn every creature he tries to play. A 3rd goyf goes the distance
(1-0)

Match 2 - Dredge (no LED)
keep hand of: birds of paradise, zenith, mox, lavamancer, and lands. He opens with putrid imp, and i realize my only hope is to zenith for KotR and tap it for bog. Turn 2 i get my KotR, but he goes off before i can tap him.
game 2: -2 lavamancer, -3 punishing fire, -1 maze, -2 loam, -2 goyf +4 chalice +4 leyline +2 teeg
Opening hand has 2 leylines and confidant. He cant find an answer to leyline before bob and a goyf tap for the win.
game3: mull into hand of: leyline, goyf, lands. Again he fails to answer leyline before goyf and a crusher go to town.
(2-0)

Match 3 - Dragon Stompy
opening hand of birds, zenith, zenith, kotr, lands. Turn 2 kotr, turn 3 zenith -> kotr, turn 4 zenith -> kotr is more than he can handle.
game 2: -2 punishing fire, -2 lavamancer, +2 ancient grudge, +2 gaddock teeg
keep hand of: mox, confidant, crusher, crusher, lands. We exchange fatties and beats for a while, and both end up really low on life. I get lucky on a confidant trigger and hit a land. A top decked bird of paradise chumps his rakdos pit dragon and lets me swing for the win.
(3-0)

Match 4 - UBG Landstill
win dice roll, and keep hand of mox, confidant, crusher, lands. Turn 1 confidant gets countered, but turn 2 crusher lands. I lucksack with the crusher trigger, and he gets huge fast. Wasteland stall long enough for him to turn sideways twice, and win.
Game 2: -2 lavamancer -1 maze -1 bog, -2 pulse, +2 teeg, +4 chalice
Keep hand of bob, goyf, crusher, loam, and lands. His deck works like its supposed to, and i quickly realize he has more answers than i have creatures. I go into loam mode, and eventually find punishing fires and grove. I slowly burn him to 0 while keeping his factories and jace in check. After the game he admits that he didn't know what i was playing since all he saw game 1 was crusher, so he didn't board in any graveyard hate. Lucky on my part, but i will take what i can get.
(4-0)

Match 5 - burn/sleigh (elementals, figure of destiny, misstep, scroll)
I drop confidant and some other beats while he plays mountains and passes the turn for a while. Then he plays 2 price of progress which is more than enough to kill me.
game 2: -2 lavamancer, -2 punishing fire, -1 bog, -2 pulse, +4 chalice, +3 therapy
(in hindsight, i should of taken out loam and kept in some of the burn)
my first 7 is nothing short of the best possible hand against a burn deck: chalice, chalice, mox, kotr, lands. Turn 1 chalice at 1, turn 2 KotR, turn 3 chalice at 2. He scoops.
game 3: I mull to 5 looking for chalice, but am forced to keep: crusher, zenith, birds, fetches. For the first time i realize hes playing more of a sleigh deck than a burn one, and my fatties outsize his. He wastes alot of his burn killing my crushers and goyfs, but eventually i land a KotR at 10/10 or so, and he cant answer it. i win while at 2 life.
(5-0)

Match 6 - Enchantress
now in the top 8, i manage to get matched up against my friend playing my enchantress deck. Since i play enchantress alot, i realize that there is no chance in hell i am going to win game 1. I get some good confidant / goyf beating in, but he finds solitary confinement, and we go to game 2
-3 punishing fire, -2 lavamancer, -1 maze, -1 loam +3 cabal therapy, +4 chalice
Keep a hand of therapy, bob, loam, crusher, lands. I blindly therapy away his argothian, and sac bob to get his grove. Alas, he top decks another enchantress and its downhill from there.
(5-1)

Conclusions:
zenith was amazing all day. One of its most important uses is as a pseudo-mox turn 1 for dryad arbor, allowing you to cast crusher or KotR turn 2. It also avoids KotR's pesky mana cost, which is his biggest problem. I was running BoP as a color fixer and zenith target, but i never actually cast zenith for it. Most the time when i had 2 mana i would rather be casting bob/loam/fire/goyf. However, the BoP did come in handy several times; noble heirarch may be useful in this slot as well.
Lavamancer did not impress me at all. Using his ability early on hurts your goyf/loam/knights/pfire way too much. Using his ability later in the game is subpar, because you have pfire, and the ability to recur your fatties

[honz]

double post

[Richard Cheese]

On RGb vs. RGw:

One of the primary draws to running black seems to be Bob, but is Bob's extra draw really necessary when you have cycle lands and Loam for card advantage? Don't get me wrong, I love me some Bobs, but it seems like this is one list where you could live without him.

For white lists, has anyone considered running Jotun Grunt to make up for the lack of Stronghold? It's definitely clumsier, but you always have access to fetches, he provides an extra body, and is less mana intensive. Unlike Stronghold though, there's no guarantee he'll see play. He can recycle more than creatures though.

Seismic vs. P.Fire - Is it criminal to try and run both? PFire+Grove is pretty inevitable as the game goes on (barring grave hate), so it seems to me that you could run 1/2 of each, mostly as a backup to Seismic against heavy control decks or the unfortunate event of dredging all your Assaults away.

[ESG]

@ Richard Cheese: The extra draw is good. You don't always start with Loam, and post-board you're Loam can be Extirpated, which is bad times. I don't have Dark Confidant in my list, but if I was running black, I would find a way to run him. He usually sets up a win if he survives even a few turns unanswered. Jotun Grunt doesn't tend to play well with Loam. You'd be better off running Zeniths and Goyfs. I run both Seismic Assault and Punishing Fire in my build.

@ honz: It's funny: I remember Stephen Menendian saying (or it might have been Doug Linn recalling something Menendian said) that they liked Enchantress's chances in the Open series but that they didn't run it because it couldn't beat Aggro Loam. But that version had Devastating Dreams, EE and Firespout, all of which make a huge difference in the matchup. Outside of Wasteland, Maelstrom Pulse, Chalice of the Void and Gaddock Teeg (and beaters), there aren't a lot of great cards you have in that matchup.

[ESG]

@ Richard Cheese: The extra draw is good. You don't always start with Loam, and post-board your Loam can be Extirpated, which is bad times. I don't have Dark Confidant in my list, but if I was running black, I would find a way to run him. He usually sets up a win if he survives even a few turns unanswered. Grunt doesn't tend to play well with Loam. You'd be better off running Zeniths and Goyfs. I run both Seismic Assault and Punishing Fire in my build. Punishing Fire helps make up for the lack of Bobs.

@ honz: It's funny: I remember Stephen Menendian saying (or it might have been Doug Linn recalling something Menendian said) that they liked Enchantress's chances in the Open series but that they didn't run it because it couldn't beat Aggro Loam. But that version had Devastating Dreams, EE and Firespout, all of which make a huge difference in the matchup. Outside of Wasteland, Maelstrom Pulse, Chalice of the Void and Gaddock Teeg (and beaters), there aren't a lot of great cards you have in that matchup.

[Antonius]

Turn 1 bob is probably the most powerful play in the format, after turn 1 brainstorm and bob and turn 1 dark rit dark rit ad nauseam.

[sdematt]

Remember boys and girls: Dark Confidant is the best creature in the format. You're really going to give that up?

-Matt

[GGoober]

Bob dies to Mogg Fanatic, Goyf doesn't, also, you might not draw the Mox Diamond to play turn 1 Bob so don't run Bob please.

[Richard Cheese]

Remember boys and girls: Dark Confidant is the best creature in the format. You're really going to give that up?

-Matt

Right but that's not exactly a reason to include him in a deck is it? Brainstorm is one of the best cards ever printed in any format...should we play blue so we don't have to give that up either? I'm not asking if it's worth running him if you're already going RGb. I'm just asking if Bob alone makes black a more appealing choice over white when you already have Crusher, cycle lands, and Loam for filter/draw/card advantage, or if all the targeted removal black gives you access to is the real reason, and Bob is more of a bonus. I'm just trying to learn my way around the deck and figure out if I want to start with a RGw or RGb list. Right now I'm leaning towards white for KotR, Grunt, StP, and access to Armageddon as a Wish target.

Also, what say ye about the new M12 land:


Buried Ruin
Land
T: Add to your mana pool.
:2:,T, Sacrifice Buried Ruin: Return target artifact card from your graveyard to your hand.

Good enough with EE to include as a 1-of?

[Antonius]

Bob is the reason to run black. Bob is better than all of those white cards you listed put together.

[sdematt]

You don't have a draw engine otherwise. That's the problem. Drawing extra cards at almost no disadvantage is hot, which is very similar to running him in the board of 43 lands. It's just really good.

-Matt

[Aggro_zombies]

You don't have a draw engine otherwise. That's the problem. Drawing extra cards at almost no disadvantage is hot, which is very similar to running him in the board of 43 lands. It's just really good.

-Matt
This is true. The Loam draw engine is gravy but also glacially slow and extremely mana intensive; it's strictly late-game. You need something to fuel you early in the game and as a backup in case you can't Loam (for any of a variety of reasons). If you lose Bob by cutting black, you basically have to run Sylvan Library, which is not nearly as strong except in cases where you have multiple Loams and Assault going.

This deck is a classic midrange deck. It needs a draw engine to stay together, and it needs redundancy to make up for the lower overall power level of its cards.

[Richard Cheese]

I will definitely be giving the black version a try. I finally got around to throwing a list together in Cockatrice and I completely see what you mean now. Just feels kinda dead in the water without an active Loam.

[Richard Cheese]

Sorry for the double post, but what do you guys recommend for the Painted Stone matchup? Sneak/Show?

[Admiral_Arzar]

Sorry for the double post, but what do you guys recommend for the Painted Stone matchup? Sneak/Show?

Sneak/Show: We lose.

Painted Stone: Krosan Grip, Ancient Grudge, burn out the wazoo.

[CorpT]

There are answers to Show if you run a Wishboard. Either Retribution of the Meek or Persish. Or Chainer's Edict if they don't have any other creatures. Sneak is much harder if they play correctly with enough mana to activate.

Is anyone actually playing Sneak though?

[Koby]

Pithing Needle helps against Sneak Attack, and REB helps against Show n Tell. Those answers aren't very robust or solid - it's probably a very poor matchup.

[Richard Cheese]

Sneak/Show: We lose.

Painted Stone: Krosan Grip, Ancient Grudge, burn out the wazoo.

How many SB slots are worth devoting to artifact hate though? Right now I have 3x Grip and 1 Pulverize to wish for. Maybe Pyroblast/REB are worth a shot? I've just not been able to burn out painter fast enough running Lavamancer, Seismic, and PFires. I could run Bolt over Lavamancer, but it feels like this is the only match it helps. I may just drop PFires, just threw it in because I like the inevitability vs. control, and a few people in this thread were raving about it.

[sdematt]

We had a small 7-man at the local Legacy event (tons of people had to work or are away for the summer on internships).

I took 3rd place with this list. I played some games against UW Stoneforge Landstill before the tournament, and was unfavoured both pre and post board, but I also drew like crap.

I won against Dredge, lost to Merfolk (narrowly, I drew like crap) and beat Elves.

My list:

4 Forgotten Cave
3 Tranquil Thicket
2 Taiga
1 Badlands
2 Bayou
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Mountain
1 Forest

4 Mox Diamond
4 Life from the Loam
3 Seismic Assault
2 Terminate
2 Dismember
2 Go for the Throat
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Sylvan Library

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Countryside Crusher
1 Eternal Witness
1 Terravore

BOARD

2 Pernicious Deed
2 Pyroblast
2 Thrun, the Last Troll
3 Extirpate
2 Perish
3 Krosan Grip
1 Ancient Grudge

-----

I also played against Painter Combo, and he had 3+ Counterspells for my removal at all times. Them's the breaks. I was thinking of adding in 2 Fires and 2 Groves, but I'm not sure if 2 Groves are enough.

-Matt

[Richard Cheese]

I've been liking 2 Groves in testing online. It's really more of a backup plan against decks that can counter Assault. I actually thought about cutting it to 1, since like Stronghold it's only meant to be abused in the late game, and you'll find it eventually with dredging.

Also, why 2 Bayou/1 Badlands instead of the other way around? Assault is usually the only thing I have issues casting.

[Dark Ritual]

Well at worst punishing fire is 1R: Kill target X/1 or X/2 or win target goyf war. Grove of the burnwillows + punishing fire is best in builds packing KotR because it can tutor for the grove and punishing fire can just get dredged into.

Interesting list Matt. Maybe splash white solely for KotR and vindicate instead of pulse? I dunno. KotR is just so awesome so much of the time. Also opens you up to swords but maybe that stretches the manabase then again Micah Greenbaum ran 4 color loam to great results in Baltimore.

[CorpT]

I like the idea of 4x Punishing Fire 0x Seismic. They really accomplish the same thing by having a late game win condition and removal for creatures that need to die.

The differences IMO:
Fires can be dredged over to no loss.
Fires is easier to cast.
Fires is hard to deal with (can't even be Extirpated).
Fires can be cast earlier to stop Bob, Noble, etc...

Fires is slower and more mana intensive.
Fires cannot reach as big or as many. Not reaching to 3 is a pretty big deal.

I'm not so concerned with Fires being slower. If it's a late game, inevitability kill, it doesn't matter if it takes a little longer to pull off. Not being able to hit x/3 efficiently is bad though. Maybe that means that Fires needs to be played along side other, more versatile removal like Pulse, Vindicate, DD and/or Firespout to handle the big dudes and the swarms.

One of my main reasons to dislike Seismic is the RRR. The other is that I hate dredging over it. It makes me want to play bad cards like E. Witness and I really don't want to do that. The fact that Seismic can be dealt with is also another concern.

[sdematt]

The thing is, Seismic Assault wins the game now. I raced Dredge with a Seismic Assault online. I landed Assault, and raced Tokens + Narcomoebas + Ichorids. I had a 9/9 Terravore and a Bob keep me alive until I hit Assault, at which point I killed him in a turn and a bit. Grove/Fires is pretty saucy, but Assault is freakin' brutal in terms of doing 6+ damage a turn. I definitely agree that RRR is also brutal, as I'm usually wanting 2 green and 2 red up.

I know Mitch took 1st at Baltimore, but his manabase looks SO shaky. I tried a 4C list a while back, and found it was tough balancing white for removal, green for your Loams, and reds for Assault/Crusher. But, I can always try it again.

-Matt

[leander?]

Corpt, if you don't like getting your good cards dredged away, I guess you could always just run bad cards. My point is that you might not really get the point of dredging LftL. Sure, you 'lose' three cards, but you get one. No more, but neither any less than you would've drawn anyway. And this way it's the card you actually want. You can't run only self-retracable cards just because you don't like to see useless cards in your graveyard. Then you'd be playing Ichorid-dredge. With that deck you want to dredge as much as you can, but with LftL you need to consider it every turn. What do I want to draw? How likely is it that I will? Is a LftL better/more reliable? This concideration is to me still one of the toughest and most important of a regular game.

About the rest of the deck; I haven't played MTG for about a year, but recently kinda picked it up again. I always used to play RGb Aggro Loam and have been playing pretty much the same 75 as, say, two years ago. I've never been that fond of the white splash for KotR. Besides the fact that I never really got convinced of Knight (in fact, I still prefer Terravore), I partly dislike it because I don't beleave in a 4c manabase. My own 26-lands 3c manabase with duals/fetch instead of basics is about as vulnerable to colorscrew as I can bare. Also it's because I feel that playing white implies running StP over Chalice of the Void and I'm still convinced that a CotV build is the way to go. We can never run enough good 1-drops to outpower the tier 1 decks' ones (most notably Brainstorm) and we run Moxen anyway, so Chalice fits perfectly.

Another card many people seem to have cut is Burning Wish. Even though the M10 ruleschange made it slightly worse (It's a little less effective against Extirpate, which doesn't see play, and you can't play your flashbacked Chainer's Edict for a third time. Big deal.), I never experienced the conistency in testing without Wish that I felt when playing with it. Also, I realise the card is pretty mana-ntensive, but as long as you run 0-2 cmc targets only, that really shouldn't be a problem.

This is my list. As said, it has been roughly the same for some time and I really feel that it's pretty much optimal.

4 Mox
4 CotV
2 Terminate
2 DDreams
3 LftL
4 Burning Wish
2 Seismic Assault

4 Confidant
4 Goyf
2 Terravore
3 Crusher

1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Barbarian Ring
3 Tranquil Thicket
3 Forgotten Cave
4 Wasteland
7 Verdant Catacombs/Bloodstained Mire/Wooded Foothills
1 Bayou
2 Badlands
4 Taiga

1 LftL
1 DDreams
1 Chainer's Edict
1 Shattering Spree
1 Reverent Silence
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Thorn of Ametyst
3 Krosan Grip
3 Kitchen Finks

-Volrath's Stronghold might get cut. It's been a long-time basic, but I feel it only improves good matchups (control) and gets you colorscewed too often.
-Many people like to run a full playset of Crushers, but I really tried to limit the curve as much as possible. I tried 4 Crushers and 1 Vore, but I missed Vore's raw power and got screwed too often because of Crusher's antisynergy with DDreams and SAssault.
-I realise that Maelstrom Pulse is expensive, but I feel I need to have an answer to Planeswalkers besides burning or attacking them.
-I guess the Finks could be Firespouts, but I've been boarding the Ouphes in against so much more than just fast aggro. I love swapping them with Vores against decks that I expect to have a lot of SB graveyard hate. It leaves you with a deck that isn't even all that vulnerable to GY removal.
-I used to run a Firespout as a wishtarget, but even in that role it hardly ever got me anywhere and I never picked it so it got axed for Shattering Spree, wich is way more usefull.

Comments are always welcome, obviously.

[PanderAlexander]

Fires is hard to deal with (can't even be Extirpated).


Why can't it be extirpated? Punishing Fire's return is a triggered ability, they can respond to it with extirpate. You'd have to have two groves out to be tricky where you can tap the 2nd in response to have them gain one life and trigger in-response to extirpate, but at that point they would know better and can just wait until you tap the 2nd one.

[Aggro_zombies]

I like the idea of 4x Punishing Fire 0x Seismic. They really accomplish the same thing by having a late game win condition and removal for creatures that need to die.

The differences IMO:
Fires can be dredged over to no loss.
Fires is easier to cast.
Fires is hard to deal with (can't even be Extirpated).
Fires can be cast earlier to stop Bob, Noble, etc...

Fires is slower and more mana intensive.
Fires cannot reach as big or as many. Not reaching to 3 is a pretty big deal.

I'm not so concerned with Fires being slower. If it's a late game, inevitability kill, it doesn't matter if it takes a little longer to pull off. Not being able to hit x/3 efficiently is bad though. Maybe that means that Fires needs to be played along side other, more versatile removal like Pulse, Vindicate, DD and/or Firespout to handle the big dudes and the swarms.

One of my main reasons to dislike Seismic is the RRR. The other is that I hate dredging over it. It makes me want to play bad cards like E. Witness and I really don't want to do that. The fact that Seismic can be dealt with is also another concern.
Witness isn't as bad as you make it seem, but it pushes the deck in a more control-oriented direction. You have to build to it if you want it to be effective.

Hitting the opponent with Fires and then getting it back requires 1RR, of which one R is guaranteed from Grove. Hitting the opponent with more than one Fires requires an additional 1RR for each extra Fires, of which none of the red mana are guaranteed unless you have multiple Groves. This is contrast to Assault, which is RRR up front and requires no additional red mana afterwards (although you do need at least one green mana per time you cast Loam).

Between the two of them, I kind of prefer Assault. Extirpate is mostly a non-issue. Actually, how prevalent is graveyard hate right now?

[sdematt]

Well, when I show up to a tournament, I get hated out at times. But, there's also two (2! ffs) 43 Land players, so Extirpate for me is a bit common. I usually end up siding out 1-2 Lftl against the 4 Extirpate plan, and I still get there. Big creatures still seem to get there.

As for the 2 Bayou 1 Badlands split, more often you'll need Green for Loam and Black for removal in times of desperation. Green allows you to play real threats (Confidant, Tarmogoyf, Sylvan Library) or much needed removal or Loam.

-Matt

[Richard Cheese]

After playing a dozen or so games online, I think I may drop Grove/Fires for EE and a Buried Ruin. PFire has been decent in game 1, but once they board in hate, it just turns into a shitty Shock. I think EE/Ruin, while more mana intensive, has the potential to be much more flexible, and EE is a lot more useful as a single-use under a Leyline.

[CorpT]

Why can't it be extirpated? Punishing Fire's return is a triggered ability, they can respond to it with extirpate. You'd have to have two groves out to be tricky where you can tap the 2nd in response to have them gain one life and trigger in-response to extirpate, but at that point they would know better and can just wait until you tap the 2nd one.

Ok, it can be Extirpated. If you're playing correctly, it shouldn't be. The Extirpate is just an example anyway. Extirpate is probably the best GY hate card to play against Loam and even it is underpowered compared to Fires. Extirpate* Loam and Assault starts to look pretty bad. Extirpate Loam and Fires doesn't care.

*Insert any GY hate here.


Hitting the opponent with Fires and then getting it back requires 1RR, of which one R is guaranteed from Grove. Hitting the opponent with more than one Fires requires an additional 1RR for each extra Fires, of which none of the red mana are guaranteed unless you have multiple Groves. This is contrast to Assault, which is RRR up front and requires no additional red mana afterwards (although you do need at least one green mana per time you cast Loam).

Between the two of them, I kind of prefer Assault. Extirpate is mostly a non-issue. Actually, how prevalent is graveyard hate right now?

Remember, you can also split these up over turns. You can leave a Fires in the yard if you need to.

GY hate may be low, but Enchantment hate is still seeing reasonable amounts of play.

Look at it this way: why are you playing Assault? Typically, the answer is that it is a late game threat that can be used with Loam to fairly quickly finish someone. It isn't particularly useful at dealing with early creatures and typically isn't used to deal with big creatures because it's probably better just to go to the dome. It can sort of deal with swarms, but only with Loam and a good amount of mana. If you're looking for big creature kill and/or swarm kill, there are better cards in the deck already to handle that. That leaves us with late-game finisher. And Assault is great at that. (I do think that you're underestimating the amount of mana that Assault takes though. 1G only does 6 a turn and you lose a draw step. If you really want to end it fast, you'll need a lot more mana than that to cycle lands and get back Loam)

What does Fires do that Assault does? It ends the game, albeit slower. No question here. Fires is much slower than Assault.

But, what does Fires do that Assault does not? It gets those early creatures that can be a hassle to deal with. It kills Bob. It kills Noble. It kills SFM. It wins Goyf wars. All of those nuisance creatures you don't really want to waste a Pulse/Vindicate on but still need to be dealt with. All of that for 1R, not RRR or 1RR. You can just leave the Fires in the yard until you get a Grove or need to get it back.

What about answers to them:
Assault:
Krosan Grip
Pithing Needle
Extirpate/Surgical Extraction, etc... (on Loam)
Qasali Pridemage

Fires:
?

Really, there are very few good answers to Fires.

*shrug* I just think it's worth exploring. I've played a lot of Assault and when it is rolling, it is very good. But I've also been disappointed in Assault.

[Antonius]

You ever get

Seismic Assault
+
Dark Confidant

out?

Its sort of like a throat punch. Also, turn 2 seismic is the only way you can ever expect to win against Time Spiral. Turn 2 seismic with loam is the only way you're ever beating storm. Seismic assault is insane. and yeah, its brittle against some hate but thats why you can just board it out for your sideboard techs that are ringers for whatever match it is you're facing. Against swarming dudes? Board seismic out for Pernicious deed and head their graveyard hate off at the pass. Against blue control? Board them out for Pyroblasts.

I tried playing fires instead of bolt and found that its dog shit. My percentage against merfolk instantly went down by about twenty percent.

[sdematt]

Woah, you board out Assault for Deed? You don't rawdog BOTH?

-Matt

[Koby]

Extirpate/Surgical Extraction do get rid of Fires. It's just as vulnerable to targeted GY hate as Loam is.

[CorpT]

Extirpate/Surgical Extraction do get rid of Fires. It's just as vulnerable to targeted GY hate as Loam is.

Then you're not playing Fires right.

[Koby]

There is always an opportunity to Extirpate them in response to the life gain trigger.

[sdematt]

With two, though, it's nearly impossible.

-Matt

[Antonius]

Woah, you board out Assault for Deed? You don't rawdog BOTH?

-Matt

against some matchups, i do just board out 2 cycling lands and a mox for deed. But it all depends.

[Richard Cheese]

With two, though, it's nearly impossible.

-Matt

Just seems like a completely suboptimal situation though, and that's why I say grave hate essentially makes PFire garbage. You either hold it until you get two Groves down or let it sit in the yard until you find the second one.

[CorpT]

Just seems like a completely suboptimal situation though, and that's why I say grave hate essentially makes PFire garbage. You either hold it until you get two Groves down or let it sit in the yard until you find the second one.

By that argument, Loam is terrible in the deck. You either hold it until you have enough mana and cycle lands or hope they don't have GY hate. Oh, except that you can protect Fires from Extirpate, but you can't protect Loam from Extirpate.

[Richard Cheese]

By that argument, Loam is terrible in the deck. You either hold it until you have enough mana and cycle lands or hope they don't have GY hate. Oh, except that you can protect Fires from Extirpate, but you can't protect Loam from Extirpate.

Are you saying that there's the same likelihood of getting 2 Groves (out of a max of 4, but more likely 2) into play as there is of holding 1 out of 6+ cycling lands? Or are you trying to suggest that Punishing Fire is somehow better than Loam because it can dodge one hate card? Because by that argument, every card in the deck is worse than Punishing Fire except basic lands.

[CorpT]

Are you saying that there's the same likelihood of getting 2 Groves (out of a max of 4, but more likely 2) into play as there is of holding 1 out of 6+ cycling lands? Or are you trying to suggest that Punishing Fire is somehow better than Loam because it can dodge one hate card? Because by that argument, every card in the deck is worse than Punishing Fire except basic lands.

I'm saying it is ridiculous to say that grave hate makes Fires garbage when it is stronger against GY hate than anything else GY based (Loam, Knight, Goyf, etc...) in the deck.

[Richard Cheese]

Let me rephrase then. 1R to do 2 damage is garbage. 1RR +1 life to do 2 damage/turn is good. 1RRR + 2 life to do 2 damage/turn postboard is garbage.

I actually like Grove/Fires, I just don't think Aggro Loam is the best place for it. The deck's overall reliance on the graveyard means it's going to come up against a lot of hate, and while Fires can dodge most of it, it does get considerably worse against almost all yard hate. If you look at all the most common hate, only Leyline and Wheel of Sun and Moon hose the entire deck, and Fires has no outs against them either. Fires requires extra Groves/mana even to play around Crypt or Relic, whereas Knight, Goyf, and Crusher don't really care.

I think the original debate is whether it can replace Seismic Assault, and I just don't think it can. Assault is easier to deal with, but even so you can usually nuke their entire board in response. It's just something that flat-out wins games if it stays on the board.

[Aggro_zombies]

Let me rephrase then. 1R to do 2 damage is garbage. 1RR +1 life to do 2 damage/turn is good. 1RRR + 2 life to do 2 damage/turn postboard is garbage.
It's not even that: assuming you're burning your opponent, you're paying 1RR for one damage, which is far worse than Assault. 1RR and 1 life for the opponent only nets two damage to creatures, and there aren't a lot of decks that run a ton of x/2 guys (even Merfolk's guys buff each other). That means you'd need to muster 2RR per turn plus the R from Grove to even start killing stuff, which is terribad.

But that aside - what deck runs Extirpate? If Extirpate is a problem, you shouldn't be running a LftL deck. Pretty much every other form of graveyard hate can be played around.

[honz]

in my mind, it plays out like this:

punishing fire / grove:
+ ignores counters
+ pieces can be tutored with KotR / dredged into
+ resistant to some grave hate
- slower than loam + seismic
- mana intensive
- completely ruined by some grave hate

loam / seismic:
+ more explosive
+ doesn't require a graveyard
- vulnerable to enchantment hate (qsali pridemage)
- without loam, its slower than pfire+grove, and has dissynergy with crusher
- counterable
- if dredged into, can't be recovered; untutorable

If seismic sticks, and you have loam, your gonna win most the time. If you have fire and grove, you can still easily lose. However, every good deck has an answer for seismic, but most don't for fire. I'd say fire is more consistent but less powerful, but both are viable options.

fire has worked out better for me

[Antonius]

For those interested, I've written a fairly thorough primer on my particular build (http://www.westcoastlegacy.com/press/2011/jund-a-summary-of-aggro-loam/#more-13) of Aggro Loam.

[Richard Cheese]

Quick question: If you were to build a list with Wish, what do you think it would look like?

Also, Buried Ruin...worth cutting a cycler for to recur EE?

Nice writeup btw, about time an updated primer came out for this deck.

[Aggro_zombies]

For those interested, I've written a fairly thorough primer on my particular build (http://www.westcoastlegacy.com/press/2011/jund-a-summary-of-aggro-loam/#more-13) of Aggro Loam.
I've added the link to the front page. Thanks.

[sdematt]

Dropped a single game last night to win the weekly Legacy:

2 Taiga
2 Bayou
1 Badlands
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Forgotten Cave
3 Tranquil Thicket
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Mountain
1 Forest
4 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold

4 Mox Diamond
2 Seismic Assault
4 Life from the Loam
2 Punishing Fires
2 Terminate
2 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Putrefy
2 Go for the Throat
2 Sylvan Library

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Countryside Crusher
4 Dark Confidant
1 Terravore

BOARD:
2 Perish
2 Crypt/Deed
3 Extirpate
2 Grip
1 Grudge
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Pyroblast
2 Thrun

Took it down against 43 Lands, Junk, and Stoneblade in the finals. We split for prizes, then played for glory. I won in 3; my game 2 here was terrible, and I lose because I didn't hit Seismic Assault or Punishing Fires or Grip or Grudge in the 45 cards I went through. Ugh.

Seismic Assault > Batterskull, just so you all know.

-Matt

[Keiichi]

For those interested, I've written a fairly thorough primer on my particular build (http://www.westcoastlegacy.com/press/2011/jund-a-summary-of-aggro-loam/#more-13) of Aggro Loam.

What would you think of Scavenging Ooze in place of Lavamancers in your build? It seems strong, and having played against it, I think we could use its power quite effectively.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Ruckus suggested we move the discussion of this list here, where it belongs. Quoting myself:


This is my most recent Jund-colored list (yes, it is 61 cards):

4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Countryside Crusher

4 Mox Diamond
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Punishing Fire
4 Burning Wish
3 Life from the Loam
2 Seismic Assault
2 Maelstrom Pulse

4 Forgotten Cave
3 Tranquil Thicket
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Bayou
1 Taiga
2 Badlands
1 Forest
1 Mountain

Sideboard
1 Shattering Spree
1 Life from the Loam
1 Devastating Dreams
1 Firespout
1 Perish
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Reverent Silence
1 Worm Harvest

1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Krosan Grip
4 Chalice of the Void

This list is burn-heavy, which is very appropriate for my meta - full of Stoneblade.dec, Dark Confidant, Cat Sligh, and Tribal decks. Burning Wish -> Devastating Dreams is, for lack of a better word, devastating in non-blue matchups. Burning Wish -> Perish also gives it a shot against NOPRO decks, which are otherwise a very bad matchup. Chalice comes in a against combo or decks like Cat Sligh and Burn where it saves your ass. Combo is still an incredibly bad matchup though, I don't ever really expect to win unless they go all-in on Empty the Warrens or whatever. I run no grave hate because nobody but me plays graveyard decks in my meta. This deck has performed pretty well, but I think I'm going to experiment with cutting black and running Knight and STP, as there's a lot of red spells in my meta and Bob rarely lives long enough to make a difference.

[Richard Cheese]

What would you think of Scavenging Ooze in place of Lavamancers in your build? It seems strong, and having played against it, I think we could use its power quite effectively.

The problem with this is that they don't do remotely the same thing. Grim is creature removal + reach, and Ooze is grave hate + fattie.

@Arzar, a few questions.

1. 2/3 Assault/Fires split...I would have thought the opposite would increase the chance of drawing rather than dredging Assault, has that ever been an issue?

2. Maelstrom Pulse - I've been running EE in this spot but haven't really tested enough to have to use it yet, just wondering how good Pulse has been and if you've tried anything else there

3. On the wishboard, how often do you wish for Firespout as opposed to just Dreams, especially with Bolt and Fires main?

4. Does D-Ho ever play Aggro Loam anymore?

[Admiral_Arzar]

@Arzar, a few questions.

1. 2/3 Assault/Fires split...I would have thought the opposite would increase the chance of drawing rather than dredging Assault, has that ever been an issue?

2. Maelstrom Pulse - I've been running EE in this spot but haven't really tested enough to have to use it yet, just wondering how good Pulse has been and if you've tried anything else there

3. On the wishboard, how often do you wish for Firespout as opposed to just Dreams, especially with Bolt and Fires main?

4. Does D-Ho ever play Aggro Loam anymore?

1. Yes, sometimes dredging assault has been an issue. However, there are a lot of times when you really don't want to draw Assault, so I limit it to two copies. Punishing Fire is better if you just need removal early, and so gets the nod.

2. I like Pulse over EE as it's not as slow assuming you're not EEing at one (and this deck kills cheap creatures very easily). Pulse is sometimes awkward as it kills your own Goyfs, but EE does too and this deck has lots of ways to win Goyf wars. Pulse is also a viable out to Jace/Moat/Humility/etc. whereas it's difficult to get 4 colors with EE. Pulse is a swiss army knife, and as long as I play black I want at least two of them.

3. Firespout is in the board specifically for Merfolk/Mystic decks with blue, or for the corner case where Dreams would not leave you at an advantage against aggro.

4. He hasn't played it in the year I've been down here, but gives me advice and lends me cards lol.

[Antonius]

@Admiral: I've been thinking about running a Burning Wish build and yours seems to have the most promise. I like how burning wish in your build shores up the inclusion of Punishing Fires over more versatile removal, like EE. Do you ever miss having access to a full sideboard?

[Admiral_Arzar]

@Admiral: I've been thinking about running a Burning Wish build and yours seems to have the most promise. I like how burning wish in your build shores up the inclusion of Punishing Fires over more versatile removal, like EE. Do you ever miss having access to a full sideboard?

Yes, against combo I greatly miss the whole sideboard. But I pretty much gave up on ever winning that matchup when I built this deck, so whatever.

EDIT: With rare exceptions, the maindeck is a beast against aggro and control, so I'm not worried much about boarding cards. Chalices help shore up questionable aggro matchups (Burn, Cat Sligh) as well as Tempo ********* and other blue decks with extremely low curves. It might even get you there against TES if you're the luckiest man on Earth. Also feel free to board it in against decks which bolt isn't that good (Landstill). Grip is a good catch-all - I run it primarily because my meta is being overrun by Batterskulls but it could be any random answer depending on what worries you the most.

[Aggro_zombies]

So I'm going to be honest here: I've played Legacy exactly twice in the past year, and I haven't played this specific deck in over a year (Zoo is my current weapon of choice, but I love me some Loams and would be happy to play this deck again). If people want to send me data, current matchup analyses, and the like I can update the opening posts.

Thanks.

[Hanni]

All this talk of Jund, Naya, and 4c... but no love for the blue splash? I've seen it mentioned briefly here and there (it's usually me who brings it up), but it seems permanently dismissed by the community.

To me, Aggro Loam can be built in a vast number of ways. This can be said for most aggro/control decks, and I think there are many pros and cons to each variation.

As far as true Aggro Loam is concerned (i.e not a deck like Bant Loam or Rock Loam), R/G is the basic shell. Straight R/G plays just fine with no splash, and there are obvious reasons to splash a 3rd (and in some cases, 4th) color. I do not deny the power of Jund. I've played Jund quite a bit back in Aggro Loam's heyday (when it was a dominant force in the metagame, don't remember the year). However, I'd like to post my R/G with a blue splash:

R/G/u Aggro Loam

// Lands (24)
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
3 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
1 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [R] Taiga
1 [R] Volcanic Island
1 [R] Tropical Island
3 [UNH] Mountain
1 [UNH] Forest
3 [ON] Forgotten Cave
1 [ON] Tranquil Thicket
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures (8)
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [MOR] Countryside Crusher

// Spells (28)
1 [EVE] Worm Harvest
1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
4 [CST] Brainstorm
4 [TE] Intuition
4 [JU] Burning Wish
4 [R] Lightning Bolt
3 [EX] Seismic Assault
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [SH] Mox Diamond

// Sideboard (15)
SB: 1 [EVE] Worm Harvest
SB: 1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
SB: 1 [TO] Nostalgic Dreams
SB: 1 [PS] Hull Breach
SB: 1 [TO] Devastating Dreams
SB: 1 [SHM] Firespout
SB: 2 [4E] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 4 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
SB: 1 [LG] Karakas

Just as a prelimary, my sideboard is still in its testing phases, so feel free to make suggestions.

I think blue lends an inredible amount of power to the deck.

Brainstorm increases the decks overall consistency tremendously, throughout the entire course of the game. Early game, Brainstorm helps increase the consistency of land drops, finding a tutor, so on and so forth. Once a Loam is online, Brainstorm essentially becomes an Ancestral Recall.

Intuition is so rediculously powerful for any deck runing Life from the Loam, that I cannot understand why others haven't tried to pioneer with a blue splash before. Intuition is essentially card advantage in a deck that uses its graveyard as an extension of its hand. Intuition for Loam/Worm Harvest/fetchland (or any card here if you have a fetchland already in the graveyard) sets up a horde of 1/1 tokens as soon as you're capable of hitting 2GGG (shouldn't be hard). Intuition also allows the deck to tutor up Ruins/EE, Wasteland, and cycle lands.

In regards to the cycle lands, between Intuition and Brainstorm, the deck can run less of them. This is a good thing, since an early flood of cycle lands can often be disastrous. It also lets the deck cut down to 1 maindeck copy of Loam, which is typically a dead draw in multiples. Also, since this deck is rather mana hungry, and I tend to use my Wastelands to destroy utility lands rather than manascew my opponent, I'm also able to cut down to 1 copy, using the space to make my manabase alot stronger.

If you ask me, Intuition > Dark Confidant, but that's my personal opinion. The deck runs no protection for the 2/1, who may or may not go the distance for you, whereas a resolved Intuition is almost always gg.

Thoughts?

EDIT: Just for some amusement...

<-------- New Game Started -------->
Hanni's Security Code: A0BA3084 [Type 1.5]
Loop's Security Code: 2C23F8A8 [Type 1.5]
It is now turn 1 (Loop)
It is now the Beginning Phase, Untap Step
<Hanni> hello
Loop shuffles library
Hanni rolled a 12, using a 20 sided die
<Loop> hi
Loop rolled a 12, using a 20 sided die
Loop rolled a 10, using a 20 sided die
Loop shuffles library
Hanni rolled a 1, using a 20 sided die
Hanni draws 7 cards
<Loop> p
Loop draws 7 cards
<Hanni> kp
<Loop> kp
It is now the Precombat Main Phase
Loop plays Island from Hand
<Loop> End my turn
It is now turn 2 (Hanni)
It is now the Beginning Phase, Untap Step
It is now the Beginning Phase, Draw Step
Hanni draws a card
It is now the Precombat Main Phase
Hanni plays Mountain from Hand
<Hanni> End my turn
It is now turn 3 (Loop)
It is now the Beginning Phase, Untap Step
It is now the Beginning Phase, Upkeep Step
It is now the Beginning Phase, Draw Step
Loop draws a card
It is now the Precombat Main Phase
Loop plays Island from Hand
<Loop> End my turn
<Hanni> EOT
Hanni taps Mountain
Hanni plays Forgotten Cave from Hand
Hanni draws a card
Hanni puts Forgotten Cave to Graveyard from Play
It is now turn 4 (Hanni)
It is now the Beginning Phase, Untap Step
It is now the Beginning Phase, Upkeep Step
Hanni untaps his/her permanents
It is now the Beginning Phase, Draw Step
Hanni draws a card
It is now the Precombat Main Phase
Hanni plays Taiga from Hand
Hanni taps Mountain
Hanni taps Taiga
Hanni plays Tarmogoyf from Hand
Loop taps Island
<Hanni> Ok?
Loop plays Spell Snare from Hand
Loop puts Spell Snare to Graveyard from Play
Hanni puts Tarmogoyf to Graveyard from Play
<Hanni> End my turn
It is now turn 5 (Loop)
It is now the Beginning Phase, Untap Step
Loop untaps his/her permanents
It is now the Beginning Phase, Upkeep Step
It is now the Beginning Phase, Draw Step
Loop draws a card
It is now the Precombat Main Phase
Loop plays Island from Hand
Loop taps Island
Loop taps Island
Loop taps Island
Loop plays Vedalken Shackles from Hand
<Loop> End my turn
It is now turn 6 (Hanni)
It is now the Beginning Phase, Untap Step
It is now the Beginning Phase, Upkeep Step
Hanni untaps his/her permanents
It is now the Beginning Phase, Draw Step
Hanni draws a card
It is now the Precombat Main Phase
Hanni plays Scalding Tarn from Hand
Hanni puts Scalding Tarn to Graveyard from Play
Hanni's life total is now 19 (-1)
Hanni is looking its Library...
Hanni puts Volcanic Island into play from Library
Hanni shuffles library
Hanni stops looking its Library...
Hanni taps Mountain
Hanni taps Taiga
Hanni taps Volcanic Island
Hanni plays Intuition from Hand
<Hanni> Ok?
<Loop> Ok
Hanni is looking its Library...
Hanni puts Worm Harvest into play from Library
Hanni puts Life from the Loam into play from Library
Hanni puts Academy Ruins into play from Library
Hanni shuffles library
Hanni stops looking its Library...
Hanni puts Intuition to Graveyard from Play
<Loop> Thinking
<Loop> ruins to hand
Hanni puts Academy Ruins to Hand from Play
Hanni puts Worm Harvest to Graveyard from Play
Hanni puts Life from the Loam to Graveyard from Play
<Hanni> End my turn
It is now turn 7 (Loop)
It is now the Beginning Phase, Untap Step
Loop untaps his/her permanents
It is now the Beginning Phase, Upkeep Step
It is now the Beginning Phase, Draw Step
Loop draws a card
It is now the Precombat Main Phase
Loop plays Island from Hand
Loop taps Island
Loop taps Island
Loop taps Island
Loop taps Island
Loop plays Jace, the Mind Sculptor from Hand
Jace, the Mind Sculptor now has 3 (+3) counters.
<Hanni> Ok
Loop draws a card
Loop draws a card
Loop draws a card
Loop puts a card on top of Library from Hand
Loop puts a card on top of Library from Hand
<Loop> End my turn
It is now turn 8 (Hanni)
It is now the Beginning Phase, Untap Step
It is now the Beginning Phase, Upkeep Step
Hanni untaps his/her permanents
It is now the Beginning Phase, Draw Step
<Hanni> Thinking
Hanni draws a card
It is now the Precombat Main Phase
Hanni plays Wooded Foothills from Hand
Hanni puts Wooded Foothills to Graveyard from Play
Hanni's life total is now 18 (-1)
Hanni is looking its Library...
Hanni puts Forest into play from Library
Hanni shuffles library
Hanni stops looking its Library...
Hanni taps Mountain
Hanni plays Lightning Bolt from Hand
<Loop> Thinking
Loop puts Jace, the Mind Sculptor to Graveyard from Play
Hanni puts Lightning Bolt to Graveyard from Play
Hanni taps Taiga
Hanni taps Volcanic Island
Hanni taps Forest
Hanni plays Engineered Explosives from Hand
<Hanni> Ok?
<Loop> Thinking
Engineered Explosives now has 3 (+3) counters.
Loop plays Force of Will from Hand
Loop plays Counterspell from Hand
Hanni puts Engineered Explosives to Graveyard from Play
Loop's life total is now 19 (-1)
<Hanni> End my turn
Loop puts Counterspell to RFG from Play
Loop puts Force of Will to Graveyard from Play
It is now turn 9 (Loop)
It is now the Beginning Phase, Untap Step
Loop untaps his/her permanents
It is now the Beginning Phase, Upkeep Step
It is now the Beginning Phase, Draw Step
Loop draws a card
It is now the Precombat Main Phase
Loop plays Island from Hand
Loop taps Island
Loop taps Island
Loop taps Island
Loop plays Back to Basics from Hand
<Loop> End my turn
<Hanni> Ok
It is now turn 10 (Hanni)
It is now the Beginning Phase, Untap Step
It is now the Beginning Phase, Upkeep Step
Hanni untaps his/her permanents
It is now the Beginning Phase, Draw Step
Hanni puts Life from the Loam into play from Graveyard
Hanni puts Forgotten Cave into play from Library
Hanni puts Engineered Explosives into play from Library
Hanni puts Countryside Crusher into play from Library
Hanni puts Forgotten Cave to Graveyard from Play
Hanni puts Engineered Explosives to Graveyard from Play
Hanni puts Countryside Crusher to Graveyard from Play
Hanni puts Life from the Loam to Hand from Play
It is now the Precombat Main Phase
<Hanni> Thinking
Hanni plays Mountain from Hand
Hanni taps Forest
Hanni taps Mountain
Hanni plays Burning Wish from Hand
<Hanni> Ok?
<Loop> Ok
Hanni is looking its Sideboard...
<Hanni> Thinking
Hanni puts Hull Breach into play from Sideboard
Hanni puts Hull Breach to Hand from Play
Hanni stops looking its Sideboard...
Hanni puts Burning Wish to RFG from Play
<Hanni> End my turn
It is now turn 11 (Loop)
It is now the Beginning Phase, Untap Step
Loop untaps his/her permanents
It is now the Beginning Phase, Upkeep Step
It is now the Beginning Phase, Draw Step
Loop draws a card
It is now the Precombat Main Phase
Loop rearranges cards in Loop's Hand
<Loop> Thinking
<Loop> End my turn
It is now turn 12 (Hanni)
It is now the Beginning Phase, Untap Step
It is now the Beginning Phase, Upkeep Step
Hanni untaps his/her permanents
It is now the Beginning Phase, Draw Step
Loop puts Spell Snare to Hand from Graveyard
<Hanni> ?
<Hanni> why did you just put spell snare to hand from graveyard?
<Loop> ?>
<Hanni> you just put spell snare to your hand from your graveyard
<Loop> no...
<Hanni> dont act stupid
<Hanni> it says it in the chat log
<Hanni> fucking cheater
<Loop> ??
<Loop> wtf
<Hanni> SPELL SNARE
<Hanni> you moved it from your graveyard to your hand
<Hanni> idiot
<Loop> ok, if you're going to accuse me of stuff i didn't do
<Loop> bye
<System> Player Lost

[sdematt]

No offense, but just an observation: you like blue in everything. First Rock, now this?

:tongue::cool:

Interesting list. I think it looks cool, but I'm not sure if blue pulls its weight. Dark Confidant and removal are pretty good.

By the way, all our removal is Green or Red or doesn't kill artifacts. We lose to a resolved Sphinx of the Steel Wind (as narrow as that is, Iona on black or Sphinx can't be killed). I know it's a very niche observation, but Reanimator is around.

-Matt

[Koby]

If you're already going into blue, then why not just go with :u::r::g: Valakut Lands with Treasure Hunt and Seismic. This isn't the thread for blue splashed Loam builds, however. IIRC, we discussed the idea several months ago, and it detracts the "Aggro" element from the deck. Fundamentally it makes the deck more control than aggro.

[Hanni]

No offense, but just an observation: you like blue in everything. First Rock, now this?



Interesting list. I think it looks cool, but I'm not sure if blue pulls its weight. Dark Confidant and removal are pretty good.

By the way, all our removal is Green or Red or doesn't kill artifacts. We lose to a resolved Sphinx of the Steel Wind (as narrow as that is, Iona on black or Sphinx can't be killed). I know it's a very niche observation, but Reanimator is around.

-Matt


Yes, I do. Blue has been my favorite color in Magic for about the last 15 years or so. However, Blue also happens to be the best color in Legacy (well, it seems all formats at the moment), so why not? At least in this deck, it's only for two spells.

As far as Sphinx goes, I concede that point. I can't answer everything. I rarely see Sphinx though. I'm sure if Reanimator pulls off an early Sphinx, I'm screwed. Iona on black is answerable by double Bolt or Seismic Assault, although I don't run black and I'm sure they would name Iona on red.

Karakas, Bojuka Bog, Spell Pierce, and possibly the REB's out of the sideboard, are pretty solid against Reanimator, though. Probably still a bad matchup, but again... I rarely run into Reanimator. Besides, I already accept "combo" as being a bad matchup.


If you're already going into blue, then why not just go with Valakut Lands with Treasure Hunt and Seismic. This isn't the thread for blue splashed Loam builds, however. IIRC, we discussed the idea several months ago, and it detracts the "Aggro" element from the deck. Fundamentally it makes the deck more control than aggro.

Why? I'm not splashing blue for Force of Will or anything. How does Brainstorm and Intuition take away the aggro element and turn the deck into a control deck? Brainstorm itself does literally nothing to change the deck from aggro to control. Intuition can be considered a transition from aggro to control, but I'm using Intuition as a replacement for Dark Confidant. Beating for two less without Dark Confidant to set up Worm Harvest to generate 6+ 1/1 tokens a turn in a few turns seems like a fair trade-off to me (and many games, it's 10 1/1 tokens a turn). More midrangey, yes, less aggro, no.

I fail to understand why I would need Valakut lands or Treasure Hunt if I splash blue, and I don't understand how I'm fundamentally removing the aggro component and going control, when I still run 4/4/3/1 Goyf/Crusher/Assault/Harvest, which are essentially the best aggro spells the deck has access to. I gain some additional control elements via Ruins/EE to be sure, but still.

Everyone knocks the blue splash, but nobody tries the blue splash... sad panda. FWIW, my decklist isn't using blue as a central focus, it's merely a light splash for two of the best spells available.

[sdematt]

I wasn't meaning the comment on Sphinx as a slight against your build; On the contrary, I was just saying for Aggro-Loam in general, it's a pretty shitty state of affairs if that happens.

-Matt

[Hanni]

I wasn't meaning the comment on Sphinx as a slight against your build; On the contrary, I was just saying for Aggro-Loam in general, it's a pretty shitty state of affairs if that happens.

-Matt

Agreed.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

@Hanni: I think Intuition is sexier in this deck than Brainstorm. Academy Ruins is pretty nice too. Not that Brainstorm is a bad card obviously, but I don't know if it's an automatic four-of in this deck, especially since you're not trying to up your blue count for Force of Will.

The lack of real removal in your list does seem like a factor though, especially since your creatures get chumped pretty easily. Terravore is an option to increase your threat density, but he's so-so. I might go four color honestly... Either white for StP/ some number of Knights or black for Go for the Throat/ Bob.

[Koby]

Well it doesn't necessarily prevent you from attacking. Just sac it during your upkeep (by not paying the 2 life), swing with your dudes during combat, and then Loam + play it during your second main. It still feels like a pain though. If your opponent has Progenitus out, it's not like you really want to be attacking into that.

Loam/Lands hybrid would indeed be interesting. I think Confidant should be dropped in favor of an Intuition package. Crusher could be kept as a beater and a faster way to find the Loam to get an engine going. Knight can fetch out a one-of Tabernacle or Chasm. The manabase would need some retooling, probably adding Maze of Ith, and the aforementioned Tabernacle and Chasm, along with Rishadan Ports. Chalice and rest of removal package should be dropped, except maybe a lone explosives. I don't know too much about the Lands deck, but here's a list I quickly threw together:

4 Countryside Crusher
4 Knight of the Reliquary

4 Intuition
4 Life from the Loam

4 Mox Diamond
4 Exploration

1 Engineered Explosives

4 Wasteland
3 Rishdan Port
4 Maze of Ith
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Academy Ruins
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Windswept Heath
2 Taiga
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Isalnd
1 Tundra
1 Savannah
2 Tranquil Thicket
2 Forgotten Cave
1 Forest
1 Island

Manabase feels VERY shaky. The list just looks like it can't really do what Aggro Loam does well and can't really do what Lands does well. Without Chalice, our fatties are prone to removal. Without enough lands, we can't abuse things like manabond. I really don't think its worth it, but maybe there's a build out there that will prove me wrong. Looking forward to seeing your list Aggro_Zombies.

Something like this Hanni? This is from April 2010, and the idea never took hold. Intuition as a enabler is costed too highly for Aggro portion, and setups inevitability (i.e. control) rather than setup quick kills.

Also, you posted this back last summer:



U/G/w Bant Loam

Lands (22)
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
2 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Savannah
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Academy Ruins
2 Lonely Sandbar
4 Wasteland

Creatures (12)
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary

Spells (26)
1 Worm Harvest
1 Life from the Loam
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Intuition
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Engineered Explosives


Most of the discussion resolved that the mana base was too unstable to include blue, when it didn't provide any key element of cohesion in the archetype. Green and red, naturally, and black provides a glue that ties it up with recurring card advantage. Blue will give you spot advantage without gaining you cards turn over turn. I would sooner run Jace TMS than Brainstorm in the deck, just because he's repeatable. However, at that point you can just win with Seismic Assault or Worm Harvest - the latter is easier to grab with BWish, and probably better to be in the sideboard for the reason that it's highly situational and unuseful most of the time during which you'lll draw it in the early/mid game.

I don't think that this archetypes stands to gain much from filtering as it does from raw card advantage. Treasure Hunt provides that, and when paired with Valakut/Exploration is able to capitalize on it. Hence why I suggest you steer towards those cards if you're adamant about playing with blue in every deck.

[Hanni]

@ the Lands list

Wha does that list have anything to do with the blue splash list I posted? The only similarity is Intuition, and that's where the similarities end.

The list I posted is an entirely green/red Aggro Loam shell that cuts the black splash for a blue splash, favoring Intuition over Dark Confidant. I fail to see how Intuition is too slow yet Confidant is not. Intuition sets up an I-win position for this deck as soon as it resolves, whereas Dark Confidant being I-win is far more conditional. With Mox Diamond and my stable manabase, hitting 2U is typically a non-issue.

@ my Bant list

I've tuned up that Bant list more since the last time I posted it in this thread, with the most recent list being posted in the UGB River Rock thread in N&D. That deck is pretty good; it's different than the traditional red/green based lists, but it's still a really good deck. I agree that it belongs in a different thread, and that's why I no longer post it in here. However, saying that it lacks card advantage or raw power, needs Jace or Treasure Hunt, blah blah blah is wrong, but we don't need to discuss that list in here.

You're assessment of Brainstorm is also completely off.

I've playtested with various Aggro Loam decks, from Jund to Bant, and I know what is strong and why in each of those decks. Intuition is extremely powerful in any sort of Loam shell, regardless of whether the deck is more aggro or more comtrol.

Suggesting Treasure Hunt and Valakut lands vs Intuition, in an Aggro Loam shell, simply means you are underestimating the power of Intuition. I do not know if this is because you've never tried it, or tried it in a poorly built version, but I will go into more detail as to why Treasure Hunt sucks and why Intution is powerful.

Even in a deck with 30 lands, that averages Treasure Hunt to a draw 2. Even drawing 3-4 cards with it, which would be incredibly lucky, pales in comparison to the draw 3 a turn from Loam. Don't get it twisted; Treasure Hunt only ever draws you 1 business spell, and the rest are lands. In a deck like the one I posted, with 24 lands... there is literally no relevance to suggest Treasure Hunt - just because it is also blue is pointless.

Intuition in a Loam shell is effectively a draw 3 for 3. No wait, that is also wrong. Intuition is a tutor 3 for 3. Aggro Loam uses its graveyard as an extension of its hand... it doesn't matter where Loam, Wasteland, or Worm Harvest go to, for example.

Intuition isn't just setting up Loam, its setting up the entire deck/engine. Normally, Loam by itself, without Assault or Crusher, is in dig mode until it draws a threat. Intuition sets up Worm Harvest. Through Loam, ramping to 2GGG is extremely easy. Worm Harvest tokens help to stabalize against aggro and then quickly shift you into the beatdown, and they provide a nearly impossible to deal with win condition against control.

[GGoober]

Blue splash definitely seems do-able these days. Totally forgot that with Mental Misstep printed, you can now be fairly competent in a blue-splash Loam list even without packing FoW. Previously, blue-splash list were awkward, because we were playing blue cards for the sake of supporting FoW e.g. Ponders/Brainstorms. Now, we can just have 4 MM, 4 Intuition and be fine with just those blue cards. Brainstorm is nice in the blue-splash builds, but it is definitely not as good as Intuition.

[Richard Cheese]

Speaking of the deck being soft to Sphinx, I've notices that Sneak/Show and NO-Pro are also fairly unfavorable. Has anyone considered running something like Fleshbag Marauder to try and shore up those matchups? I guess Diabolic/Chaier's Edict would work just as well (or better in some narrow cases), but I like the potential interaction between Fleshbag and Volrath's Stronghold.

On the blue splash, I've toyed with the idea myself, but never bothered putting anything together because I don't have blue duals or intuitions. I think it's an idea worth exploring though. I wouldn't discount Treasure hunt entirely, just because it's a one-time Crusher effect, and Crusher filtering through even 2-3 lands to get you to a business spell is just priceless.

[Antonius]

I do believe that bant loam is fundamentally a different deck from Aggro Loam. It already has its an established archetype thread.

further: I would not want to play less than 24 lands in a loam deck. Consider adding Maze and Nantuko Monastery. Your Knights will be very, very powerful.

[Hanni]

Blue splash definitely seems do-able these days. Totally forgot that with Mental Misstep printed, you can now be fairly competent in a blue-splash Loam list even without packing FoW. Previously, blue-splash list were awkward, because we were playing blue cards for the sake of supporting FoW e.g. Ponders/Brainstorms. Now, we can just have 4 MM, 4 Intuition and be fine with just those blue cards. Brainstorm is nice in the blue-splash builds, but it is definitely not as good as Intuition.


I agree that Brainstorm is definitely not as good as Intuition. That's not really a fair way to evaluate Brainstorm though, since Intuition is the best spell in my deck. However, I do agree that Brainstorm isn't necessary, but the tempo loss of paying a single U in this deck is minimal compared to the huge gains in card quality and overall consistency.


On the blue splash, I've toyed with the idea myself, but never bothered putting anything together because I don't have blue duals or intuitions. I think it's an idea worth exploring though. I wouldn't discount Treasure hunt entirely, just because it's a one-time Crusher effect, and Crusher filtering through even 2-3 lands to get you to a business spell is just priceless.

Treasure Hunt is rarely going to be better than a single casting of Life from the Loam, which can also draw business spells with the cycle lands. The difference being, Treasure Hunt doesn't recur itself every turn. In a deck like 43 Lands, I can see justification for Treasure Hunt, but in Aggro Loam deck with 24 lands, the card is utter garbage.

Compare that to Intuition, which is a guarunteed tutor 3 for 3, that also sets up a recurring draw 3 for 2, and there's literally no comparison between Treasure Hunt and Intuition, for this deck.


I do believe that bant loam is fundamentally a different deck from Aggro Loam. It already has its an established archetype thread.

further: I would not want to play less than 24 lands in a loam deck. Consider adding Maze and Nantuko Monastery. Your Knights will be very, very powerful.


That Bant Loam list is a bit outdated, and like I said, I know the discussion doesn't belong in here, I'm not the one who brought it back up. I posted that decklist in this thread back in 2010, and have since stopped discussing it in here. The central focus of the deck is blue, whereas the central focus of traditional Aggro Loam is R/G.

The decklist I'm trying to discuss is the one I posted a page back, which is a traditional R/G Aggro Loam shells that drops the black splash/Dark Confidant for a blue splash/Intuition. Basically, I'm trying to open up a dicussion about why I think Intuition is a far more powerful spell for this deck than Dark Confidant is. So far, I haven't seen a whole lot of valid points for why Dark Confidant is the better choice.

[Richard Cheese]

Wait did I compare Treasure Hunt to Intuition somewhere?

[Hanni]

No you didn't, I just wanted to get the message across about Treasure Hunt. You can thank rukcus for my response. Sorry dood. We are still friends, right?

[Richard Cheese]

Yeah it's cool. I think Intuition is just as nuts here as in Lands, I was just saying that Treasure Hunt is like extra crushings, which could be cool if there were slots available.

[sdematt]

Did some more grinding last night, and again, I really didn't drop many games. Punishing fires is so good. Having outs to Revoker, Dark Confidant, and Qasali is pretty hot. The fact that it was recurring was even better. I love this deck so much :)

-Matt

[Dr.Jones]

Intuition while a good card on its own is not what this deck needs i believe. Its too slow and we already have burning wish.

For my part on MTGO i am having the most success with 4 color builds. I believe the reason is once COTV is dropped for 1cc removal spells (which speeds the deck vs aggro) you prefer having swords in your deck rather than bolt. Maverick, zoo, rock etc ...they all play goyfs and especially knights which are the reason this deck can ever lose to these strategies and good luck at fighting them with bolts. Sure bolt its better vs T1 nacatl (when you dont have mox) but swords handle it almost as good and being infinitely better in other circumstances, in mirror also.

I was so annoyed to lose to knights that i added a singleton bojuka main to help my punishing fires killing it.

My list:

4x Mox Diamond

4x Tarmogoyf
4x Dark Confidant
3x Countryside Crusher
3x Knight Of The Reliquary

2x Punishing Fire
3x Swords To Plowshares

1x Seismic Assault

4x Burning Wish
3x Life From The Loam
2x Vindicate
1x Gamble

4x Wooded Foothills
1x Windswept Heath
1x Verdant Catacombs
1x Badlands
1x Bayou
1x Forest
3x Forgotten Cave
3x Grove Of The Burnwillows
1x Karakas
1x Maze Of Ith
1x Plateau
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Savannah
1x Taiga
2x Tranquil Thicket
3x Wasteland

SB

1x Wheel of Sun and Moon
1x Leyline Of The Void
3x Red Elemental Blast
1x Devastating Dreams
1x Life From The Loam
1x Perish
1x Shattering Spree
1x Chainer's Edict
2x Enlightened Tutor
1x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Worm Harvest
1x Maelstrom Pulse


I used the winning list of Baltimore for playtesting and changed what i felt underperforming accordingly. I will explain briefly those changes:

SB enlightened tutor package: Well some decks needs very specific answers and you better have them in your opening. The tutor fixes the sideborad slots you are dedicating for that and improves most of your abyssimal matchups like ANT, Dredge etc. I added 1 Seismic to maindeck so it can fetch for that when the game develops. Canonist helps also against Elves, enchantress and hivemind combo. You can adapt this sideboard by adding more singletons like chalice, nihil spellbomb, engineered plague, deed etc..

Gamble: He helps in few things but is a nice addition i believe. Early he finds loam. Midgame punishing fire and late he is (almost) demonic tutor. He is very good with singleton utility lands or to fix both parts of the grove combo.

[Hanni]

Intuition while a good card on its own is not what this deck needs i believe. Its too slow and we already have burning wish.

Too slow... in relation to what? It only costs 1 more mana than Dark Confidant.

This is a midrange aggro/control deck, that also happens to run 4 Mox Diamonds. It's slower than Dark Confidant, yes; it costs 2U, Confidant costs 1B, and you're not getting a body.

Too slow has to be relative though. Too slow against what? Merfolk? Blade Control/Stone Blade? G/W Maverick? The deck is entirely a red/green shell. It has Lightning Bolt for early guys, it has Engineered Explosives as an early removal option, and it has Tarmogoyf as a huge wall. Seismic Assault already rapes Merfolk, Goblins, and Blade Control/Stoneblade, but you have to have Loam online for it to be truly effective. Stabalizing against aggro with a swarm of 1/1 Worm Harvest tokens is far better than hoping your Confidant will draw you additional removal, if you ask me.

I'm not claiming that the blue splash is strictly superior to straight R/G, Jund, Naya, or 4c. I'm just pointing out that the blue splash is incredibly powerful, and I don't see why everyone is so resistent to the idea. Have you even tried it, before dismissing it?

[Aggro_zombies]

Too slow... in relation to what? It only costs 1 more mana than Dark Confidant.

This is a midrange aggro/control deck, that also happens to run 4 Mox Diamonds. It's slower than Dark Confidant, yes; it costs 2U, Confidant costs 1B, and you're not getting a body.

Too slow has to be relative though. Too slow against what? Merfolk? Blade Control/Stone Blade? G/W Maverick? The deck is entirely a red/green shell. It has Lightning Bolt for early guys, it has Engineered Explosives as an early removal option, and it has Tarmogoyf as a huge wall. Seismic Assault already rapes Merfolk, Goblins, and Blade Control/Stoneblade, but you have to have Loam online for it to be truly effective. Stabalizing against aggro with a swarm of 1/1 Worm Harvest tokens is far better than hoping your Confidant will draw you additional removal, if you ask me.

I'm not claiming that the blue splash is strictly superior to straight R/G, Jund, Naya, or 4c. I'm just pointing out that the blue splash is incredibly powerful, and I don't see why everyone is so resistent to the idea. Have you even tried it, before dismissing it?
Yes. It's not as good.

You don't have Bob, so you have to run Sylvan Library to make up for his loss. Intuition is a one-shot thing and therefore not equivalent from a redundancy standpoint. But running Library puts you in the same spot as Naya, and Naya gets real removal and Knight while blue has...a tutor and Treasure Hunt? Yeah, color me not interested. If you want a tutor that adds redundancy, you're better off with Burning Wish.

Blue doesn't go in every deck, Hanni. :P

[Hanni]

Why would you have to run Sylvan Library if you don't run Dark Confidant?

You're missing the point. Intuition is not a one-shot thing. If you were grabbing Assault/Assault/Assault, that would be one thing. That is very rarely ever the case. Intuition grabs Loam; Loam is a recurring draw 3. Why in the world would you need Sylvan Library when you can be gaining +2 CA every turn from Loam? While Loam may be slow, this entire deck is designed around Loam, so that point seems irrelevant in the first place. Besides, if Intuition only grabbed Loam, I wouldn't be advocating it. It also grabs two other spells, namely Worm Harvest, which gives the deck not only a means of card advantage via cards in hand, it directly affects the board state by allowing you to swarm the board with 1/1 tokens.

Either way, it feels like I'm beating a dead horse in here, so I'm just gonna let this one go.

[C Rayz Walz]

I played some games with the blue splash for Intuition and I have to agree that the card is very powerful in this deck. It is probably the best card in the deck since it finds what ever you want it to be. Just pointing out that there is someone who agrees with you that the blue splash is very good and people should at least try it.

[Dr.Jones]

Too slow... in relation to what? It only costs 1 more mana than Dark Confidant.

This is a midrange aggro/control deck, that also happens to run 4 Mox Diamonds. It's slower than Dark Confidant, yes; it costs 2U, Confidant costs 1B, and you're not getting a body.

Too slow has to be relative though. Too slow against what? Merfolk? Blade Control/Stone Blade? G/W Maverick? The deck is entirely a red/green shell. It has Lightning Bolt for early guys, it has Engineered Explosives as an early removal option, and it has Tarmogoyf as a huge wall. Seismic Assault already rapes Merfolk, Goblins, and Blade Control/Stoneblade, but you have to have Loam online for it to be truly effective. Stabalizing against aggro with a swarm of 1/1 Worm Harvest tokens is far better than hoping your Confidant will draw you additional removal, if you ask me.

I'm not claiming that the blue splash is strictly superior to straight R/G, Jund, Naya, or 4c. I'm just pointing out that the blue splash is incredibly powerful, and I don't see why everyone is so resistent to the idea. Have you even tried it, before dismissing it?

Well... actually i already tried intution and it seems that unlike you i am willing to accept when a card is not performing appropriately. No one argues that intuition has synergy with loam but the problem is "so what? i don't want to pass my full 3rd turn intuitioning for an even slower 4th turn!" its a commitment which is "too slow" for the "aggro" spirit of this deck. After all there is a reason its called AGGRO loam and not CONTROL loam. But why not creating a topic for that and discuss it there instaed of repeating the same "correct but irrelevant" arguments over and over?

Intuition is in fact so slow with loam that even blue control decks using loam (aka BUGstill) does not play him and prefer to play multiple copies of loam.

[sdematt]

You should be playing Sylvan AND Dark Confidant if you're running RGB; It's really freaking good.


-Matt

[sdematt]

So now that Ichorid won, would you say this would be "safe" to play at SCG Seattle? I'm thinking perhaps not. Winning through hate can be done obviously, but what are your guys' thoughts? Should WE be packing more grave-hate as well?

-Matt

[Koby]

I think that Leyline is one of the preferred methods for fighting graveyards with this deck, then supplemented by Exitrpate. The answers to Leyline are few and in between, and most graveyard decks scoop to such a card. That said, it's a pain in the ass to find one through mulligans.

[Aggro_zombies]

So now that Ichorid won, would you say this would be "safe" to play at SCG Seattle? I'm thinking perhaps not. Winning through hate can be done obviously, but what are your guys' thoughts? Should WE be packing more grave-hate as well?

-Matt
That is not a typical Ichorid deck. The likelihood of hate exploding in the next SCG seems low.

More importantly, look at all those NO RUG (and the NO Bant) lists. I'm wondering if Perish is sufficient to beat Progenitus given the number of decks packing him and lots of counters.

EDIT: To clarify, I expect people to add more generic hate cards to their sideboards, like Crypt and Relic. I don't expect them to increase in a big way, and I certainly wouldn't expect an increase in things like Leyline or Extirpate that can't really be played around.

[sdematt]

I'm actually alight with Extirpate hitting Loam, as I usually board out 1-2 if I'm expecting the Extirpate plan (and board in Crucible of Worlds).

I'm wondering, for my board, what the thoughts are:

Set in stone: (cards needed to beat Stoneforge)
2 Thrun
2 Grip
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Pyroblast
1 Crucible
Unsure:
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Extirpate
2 Perish

At first, I wasn't sure if Deed should become another Perish and another Grip, but I figure Deed works double duty against Maverick, Painter, Affinity, Dredge, random.deck, Goblin tokens, Merfolk, etc.

I think if you're running Perish and Deed , you should at least have a shot at beating RUG. Personally, I found RUG to be alright at best. I was playing it against Rock (running Gauntlets for Rock, specifically) and it has few green creatures (Arbors are an issue, mind you) and seems to struggle with tons of removal, especially non-STP removal. I don't think the deck is a menace, but I agree that Perish is important to kill Progenitus. I was possibly thinking of running Nature's Ruin so I could Regenerate my Thrun through a Perish-effect :P

To be honest, I think I'll still run this deck (or Rock) at Seattle. Having a positive matchup versus Stoneblade and Merfolk is really good.

Also, anyone notice the absence of Stoneblade at Cinci last night? There were a few, but the T8 wasn't dominated.

Also, I think this deck, even with being on the radar with the 1 win a month ago, will be a good choice. It's not even on the Hatfield's win % list, which I think many people are looking at before they pick a deck to play or play against for practice.

-Matt

[AggroSteve]

@ sdmatt: i was wondering how the combination of BOB and Sylvan Lybrary would be soooo powerfull, could you explain your thoughts on it?

[sdematt]

It's like having 4 Bobs and 2 Tops/Bobs. You essentially have 50% more draw power than just the Confidants. For 4 Life, you can Dredge an extra time, or if not, you can just look and rearrange the cards for either a Confidant flip next turn, or just digging a total of 3 or more cards a turn.

It also lets you know for next turn if you want to Dredge away what is on top or not, much like Top (but without costing 1).

Redundancy is a good thing, basically. Card draw in this deck is especially needed, since you want to hit all the cards you need when you need them.

-Matt

[Aggro_zombies]

It's like having 4 Bobs and 2 Tops/Bobs. You essentially have 50% more draw power than just the Confidants. For 4 Life, you can Dredge an extra time, or if not, you can just look and rearrange the cards for either a Confidant flip next turn, or just digging a total of 3 or more cards a turn.

It also lets you know for next turn if you want to Dredge away what is on top or not, much like Top (but without costing 1).

Redundancy is a good thing, basically. Card draw in this deck is especially needed, since you want to hit all the cards you need when you need them.

-Matt
You don't have to pay four life to dredge an extra time. Dredge replaces a draw, and Library references "cards drawn" - which dredged cards are not. You will have to pay life for draws not replaced with dredges (assuming you want to keep the cards), since you have to put back two cards you've drawn this turn, even if you haven't drawn two cards yet.

But yeah, I agree that redundancy is very good for this deck. In the Naya version, I was happy with both Library and Scroll Rack since both were good early on, and then did something to help supplement LftL. Redundancy is key for this deck.

EDIT: from Oracle (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=159317) -

"If you choose to draw two cards, then replace one or more of those draws with some other effect, the rest of Sylvan Library's ability still happens. If you've actually drawn only one card that turn, you must choose that card and either pay 4 life or put it on top of your library. If you haven't actually drawn any cards that turn, the rest of the ability has no effect."

[CorpT]

There are three options with Loam and Sylvan:

Replace both Sylvan draws with Dredges: Pay 4 life or put the one card you drew on top of library.
Replace one Sylvan draw with Dredge: For each of the two cards you drew this turn, pay 4 life or put them back.
Replace zero Sylvan draws with Dredges: For two of the extra cards draw this way, pay 4 life or put it back.

[Mtre]

I'm not sure cause I've never played library manipulation in this deck, but wouldn't be Mirri's Guile better? It resolves at the beginning of the upkeep, so you can set up Crusher and Bob and it provides the information if it its useful to dredge or not, when digging for a card (e.g. pulse). Not to mention that it's a 1-drop(yeah MM, i know...) which could help fixing the curve when you don't have a mox in your starting 7.

[Koby]

Mirri's Guile operates fundamentally different from Sylvan Library. Sylvan lets you actually draw extra cards when you can afford to. This also mean you get to replace those draws with Dredge. Scroll Rack and Mirri's Guile do not allow you to draw any extra cards.

[sdematt]

I asked in the Rules forum and they said you replace the Sylvan draw with a Dredge if you want, and pay the 4 extra life. Obviously you can't put any cards back, since you didn't draw any (usually, unless you active Dredge on your first card, then Sylvan your next two without Dredging).

Maybe I should ask again?

-Matt

[Aggro_zombies]

I asked in the Rules forum and they said you replace the Sylvan draw with a Dredge if you want, and pay the 4 extra life. Obviously you can't put any cards back, since you didn't draw any (usually, unless you active Dredge on your first card, then Sylvan your next two without Dredging).

Maybe I should ask again?

-Matt
It's a replacement effect, so I'm not sure how you're supposed to pay four life or put back a card you didn't draw. The Oracle clarifications would suggest that, since drawing no cards by replacing all draws with another effect does not result in losing 8 life, that replacing one of the draws would only result in losing four life if you decided to keep the card you're drawing. If you don't, you shouldn't lose life.

[Richard Cheese]

I believe it's exactly as CorpT said above. The oracle text on the card is:


choose two cards in your hand drawn this turn. For each of those cards, pay 4 life or put the card on top of your library.


So you can take your normal draw for the turn, draw another off Library, then replace the third with dredging loam. You just have to put back the two cards you already drew, or pay 4 life for each. Doesn't really matter which of your 3 draws you replace.

[AggroSteve]

so for dummys like me, it means if you "draw" the 2 cards with library and replace one of them with dredge, and put the one card you actually drew back, you will still have to pay the 4 life for the dredged card, right?

EDIT: or at least put 2 cards back to not take damage, including the one you would have drawn normaly, is that correct?

[Richard Cheese]

No. Any time you dredge, you replace the draw. That draw never happened so Library won't count it. Library just cares that you put any two cards you drew this turn back, or pay 4 life per card to keep it.

If you have two Loams in the yard and dredge them both, only drawing one card, you have to put that card back or pay 4.

If you have three Loams in the yard and dredge them all back, you didn't draw anything so you have nothing to pay life for.

If you had a Library in play and cast Ancestral Recall during your upkeep, you can put back any two of the six cards you drew that turn, or pay 8 and keep them all like a pimp.

[sdematt]

I was thinking about it in the way that you're paying life for the extra Dredges, not the cards you choose not to put back. Interesting.

Point being, I took the Legacy tournament down again. Hooray me?

-Matt

[sdematt]

Tournament report:

Round 1: J.I. with Hive Mind 2-1

He wins the die roll and drops Island, I drop T1 Dark Confidant off Mox Diamond. I pass. He drops Ancient Tomb into Show and Tell, and I have a Goyf. He drops Emrakul. I lose.

In: 2 REB, 2 Perish (I'm thinking he's on Sneak and Show), Thrun, etc.
Out: Useless removal

G2 I have two Goyfs online, and he counters my Seismic Assault and another backbreaking spell. I pitch Mox Diamond to the bin and start swinging for 10. He loses.
I have REB's for his awesomesauce.

G3 is tight. I have a 3/4 Goyf, and I have 3 lands, with a a few lands in hand, and a Seismic Assault, and a Mox Diamond. He drops Emrakul, I drop Seismic. I life from the Loam for 3 Lands, and play the 4th. He's at 15 or so. I want him to block my Goyf to have the possibility of burning it out, but I know he'll let it through. He does, and he ticks down to 11. He swings in with Emrkaul, I burn him for 6 in response, and sit and do some math. I can't win with just Seismic assault, since I won't have mana to play Loam. I decide to sac everything except Goyf, then I swing back to kill him.

Round 2: Andrew with Mono Blue Control 2-1

Andrew's new to Legacy, but had Mono Blue control with Stifle Naught Combo. Ugh. I keep a great 7, and pump out Dark Confidant on the first turn. It sees a Force. I drop Sylvan next turn, and fetch into my basics. I start trying to lay threats, they get countered. He lays Shackles and taps out. I drop Seismic with Loam online. He drops Back to Basics, I cease to care. I kill him in 2 turns.

In: Grip, Grip, Grudge, Crucible, Thrun, Thrun, REB, REB
Out: Go for the Throat x2, Terminate x2, and then I shaved numbers.

I keep a decent 6, but get blown out by T2-3 Stifle Naught. I have Pulse, but he has Force. I pack it up.

In: 2x Terminate
Out: random

He has the Nought, but I have the Terminate. I run out Goyf, Bob, etc. but he counters actual threats and plays Shackles. He starts playing Energy Fields, so I wasteland his factory and start the Thrun beats. He plays another Field, I Pulse him. He loses to Thrun and Seismic Assault.

Round 3: Jason with the Rock

We draw so I pass go and collect $20, as does he, but I know the matchup well and I usually win.


----

Also, thoughts on this banner for the frontpage?

http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t284/XenoSlicer/AggroLoam.jpg
-Matt

[Aggro_zombies]

A different font? The fake spray paint tagging looks kind of meh.

Also, congrats.

[sdematt]

I didn't do it, but I can ask for them to change it. Other than it, it looks okay?

-Matt

[NilsH]

It says "Löam", looks strange, should be Loam. Also I think the picture of Loam should be more in front.

[sdematt]

Going into this weekend, and after reading the relevant Legacy articles this week, it looks like:

-People have finally learned how to beat SFM or at least do better against it.
-People may pack more Dredge hate.
-U/R Landstill looks like an alright deck on paper (it has Blood Moons)
-Loam is being talked about as a good card.
-Natural Order decks are doing REALLY well.

With this, I'm wondering what I should do with my board before the tournament in SCG Seattle.

Again, right now, I'm on:

1 Crucible of Worlds (extra late game power, great in case my Loams get Extirpated, etc.)
2 Perish (Maverick/Progenitus/Bant)
2 Pernicious Deed (Dredge, Affinity, randoms, Maverick, Zoo, Merfolk)
2 Red Elemental Blast (blue decks, answer to Jace/Back to Basics/Clique etc.)
2 Krosan Grip (SFM decks, Crucible, Shackles, etc.)
1 Ancient Grudge (With the possibility of Blood Moon and less Crucible/SFM, I'm thinking 3rd Grip?)
3 Extirpate (other Loam decks, Dredge, Combo, etc.)

I'm wondering if Grudge should become Grip (there's some extra value in getting 2 artifacts with Grudge, and it's not useless if flipped into the yard) and if Deed should become another Perish and another piece of Grave-hate (Crypt?).

Or, maybe go with 3 Leylines and 1 Extirpate? I'm not sure.

-Matt

[sdematt]

I played in SCG Seattle, and I had this happen:

-Played against 0 Stoneforge
-Lost my Bant matchups to Progenitus (after switching to Edict in the board, fearing Reanimator)
-Lost a game to not drawing a life from the loam in 15 turns and several cycling lands.
-Opened infinite crap hands that had no real mana.

Overall, the deck was fine, I just drew like crap. So sad. I'm thinking about adding maybe 2 Burning Wish, as other Aggro-Loam players REALLY suggested it, but I'm not so sure.

-Matt

[Admiral_Arzar]

-Lost my Bant matchups to Progenitus (after switching to Edict in the board, fearing Reanimator)

Overall, the deck was fine, I just drew like crap. So sad. I'm thinking about adding maybe 2 Burning Wish, as other Aggro-Loam players REALLY suggested it, but I'm not so sure.

-Matt

Burning Wish is the NUTZ, partially because you can go Wish -> Perish/Virtue's Ruin against Hydra Avatar.dec. I started out running 3 and eventually went up to 4 because I was wrecking my sideboard anyways, and it's just awesome.

On another note, I tested a Naya build and found it to be even slower than the Jund build, and thus not particularly good. Sure, KOTR is good, but I ended up with hands clogged with 3-drops that didn't do anything without Mox Diamond.

[Richard Cheese]

Burning Wish is the NUTZ, partially because you can go Wish -> Perish/Virtue's Ruin against Hydra Avatar.dec. I started out running 3 and eventually went up to 4 because I was wrecking my sideboard anyways, and it's just awesome.

On another note, I tested a Naya build and found it to be even slower than the Jund build, and thus not particularly good. Sure, KOTR is good, but I ended up with hands clogged with 3-drops that didn't do anything without Mox Diamond.

Been trying a 4-color build lately and while Knight is hit and miss, StP and Vindicate have been excellent. The manabase is just so greedy though, consistency has been an issue.

I saw some discussion of Gamble a few pages back...did anyone actually test it out?

[AggroSteve]

could someone post a list how a burning wish - list would look optimized in jund colors in your opinion, and maybe some suggestions for sideboard

thanks a lot

[Aggro_zombies]

Been trying a 4-color build lately and while Knight is hit and miss, StP and Vindicate have been excellent. The manabase is just so greedy though, consistency has been an issue.

I saw some discussion of Gamble a few pages back...did anyone actually test it out?
If you're running Burning Wish, Wish is better. Otherwise, Entomb is probably better.

@sdematt: sorry to hear that.

I personally don't like Burning Wish, for the typical reasons: lack of a real sideboard, Wishing for an answer and then casting it is slow, redundancy in the main helps to solve most of the deck's problems.

[Richard Cheese]

If you're running Burning Wish, Wish is better. Otherwise, Entomb is probably better.

@sdematt: sorry to hear that.

I personally don't like Burning Wish, for the typical reasons: lack of a real sideboard, Wishing for an answer and then casting it is slow, redundancy in the main helps to solve most of the deck's problems.

I would think the advantage of Gamble over Entomb comes when you aren't just looking for Loam, but again I haven't tested it. I've been running wish because I like the flexibility and not being as susceptible to grave hate, but I may proxy up a list just to see how big the differences are.

[sdematt]

Wish gives you faster answers to Leyline of the Void (via Wish for Hull Breach, cast Hull Breach).

Other than that, good for Perish (not Chainer's Edict. I watch a guy lose to Bertoncini by getting Edict and Bertoncini having a Clique to sac in response) and possibly Hull Breach/Firespout/Dreams. We'll see how the meta goes. All this Hive Mind makes me very blah.

-Matt

[Aggro_zombies]

I would not want to play this deck in Hive_Mind.meta.

If you're going to do Burning Wish and sideboard answers like Perish, why not do 2-3 Perish and 2 or so Burning Wish? That way you can board in some Perish in games two and three, but you (a) save board space while (b) increasing your virtual Perish density (with 2 main plus two Burning Wish for one in the side, you save one sideboard slot over having four). It also gives you the flexibility to wish for other things as the situation arises.

TBH, though, Leyline is very rare. Even the decks that could cast it don't often run it. I would rather just run Grips in the side because they have value against Mystic decks as well. Furthermore, with the amount of burn you run, Firespout seems actually kind of weak, and Dreams is Dreams (read: I still hate it).

EDIT: to elaborate a bit on my reasoning:

Burning Wish typically eats up ~6 or so sideboard slots, leaving ~9 "real" sideboard cards. I don't think that the ability to Wish for cards dramatically improves game one scenarios against various decks, and missing a sideboard means you're probably actually losing some percentage points in games two and three because all (or most) of your relevant cards are one-of Wish targets, while your opponent gets to board in live stuff. There actually aren't a lot of things worth Wishing for that wouldn't just be better off as 3-4-of sideboard cards; Perish is one because of all the RUG and Bant decks. However, against those decks, you really want Perish. There are a couple of options here:

1) Run more Wishes. This plan has a number of flaws. First, if you run four Wish but only have a couple targets, the Wishes lose a lot of value - and then it's not worth running four. In order to justify running that many, though, you run into the previous problem of eroding sideboard space. Plus, RUG has a bunch of counters; while they're mostly conditional, I still don't want my answer to my opponent's trump card to be a chain of spells wherein I have to resolve both in a precise order.

2) Run more Perishes. If you board in four Perish, you're more likely to see it. The problem is, I don't know if Bant/RUG (basically, Progenitus decks) make up enough of the field to justify going all-out like that, and Progenitus is the real issue with those decks. Furthermore, other decks that get hit by Perish, like Zoo or G/x aggro, are already soft to your high amounts of removal and card advantage. Perish might not even be necessary there.

3) Run a mix. This frees up some sideboard space while giving you more control over how often you see Perish in various matchups; where you really want it, you can board some in and still have Wish, whereas it will always be an option in other matchups. I'm not sure this will work but it might be worth looking at if you want to try Wishes.

[ESG]

I played my Fires-heavy Wish build at SCG Seattle. I fared better on the day than Matt, but, at 56th place out of 189 players, still finished far below what I was expecting. I would have liked to play against more aggro and more aggro-control decks on the day. Merfolk would have been nice. I was paired against a rogue storm combo deck (won), GW Maverick (won), Hive Mind (lost), BW Stoneforge (won), Blue Zoo (lost), Hive Mind (lost), Micah's Aggro Loam list with Leylines (lost), Zoo with Leylines (won). I'm convinced I could have won the match against Blue Zoo and Micah's list, so my fault on those. I won't make the same mistakes next time. Overall, the deck performed great. Burning Wish was a house all day. The biggest mistake I made was not having Angel's Grace in my sideboard, which would have made all the difference in the Hive Mind matchup. That deck was everywhere. I want to see the breakdown the next time the Hatfields roll out the data.

[sdematt]

I was thinking of running 2 Wish, 2 Perish. Board 1 in, and keep 1 in the board. In the board, I'd also run a 1-of Regrowth. I've been missing E. Witness, since it's so freaking slow, but I've missed it nonetheless.

RE: Angel's Grace:

Sure, there's a slot in the board, but is it worth it? Are the 4 of them you board going to destroy your other matchups sideboard space? Plus, then you have to run 4 colours :P

RE: Punishing Fires

Run the freaking combo. I'm running 3 Grove and 2 Fires, and it's fucking amazing. Zoo really doesn't like it, Dark Confidants, Stoneforge, Factory, Jace, B/W Aggro, Merfolk, etc. REALLY good. Plus, you basically get to run extra Taigas. I'm down :P

-Matt

[Richard Cheese]

Ok, someone school me on the BUGstill matchup. I tested this last night and it was just this terrible war of attrition. He kept countering loam and I kept dredging it back. I'm thinking now I shouldn't have cracked his Standstills and used the opportunity to build up a hand. I tend to just play terribly when games get long and repetitive like that, any advice is appreciated.

[sdematt]

Board in Grip for Deed. Profit. Bring in Crucible. Profit. Land Seismic Assault. Profit.

Basically, bait Deed. Make him NEED to blow Deed with minimal pressure. Then, just play a threat. Constantly bombard him with Wastelands and kill his Jaces (Fires is good for that).

-Matt

[ESG]

Worm Harvest is a strong answer. It doesn't care about Pernicious Deed.

[Hanni]

If you can get the Loam engine going, Landstill should be an easy matchup. They have no effective way of dealing with Worm Harvest outside of Cunning Wish for Extirpate, but who really runs CWish in Landstill anymore?

[Admiral_Arzar]

could someone post a list how a burning wish - list would look optimized in jund colors in your opinion, and maybe some suggestions for sideboard

thanks a lot

Quoting myself from page 21:


This is my most recent Jund-colored list (yes, it is 61 cards):

4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Countryside Crusher

4 Mox Diamond
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Punishing Fire
4 Burning Wish
3 Life from the Loam
2 Seismic Assault
2 Maelstrom Pulse

4 Forgotten Cave
3 Tranquil Thicket
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Bayou
1 Taiga
2 Badlands
1 Forest
1 Mountain

Sideboard
1 Shattering Spree
1 Life from the Loam
1 Devastating Dreams
1 Firespout
1 Perish
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Reverent Silence
1 Worm Harvest

1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Krosan Grip
4 Chalice of the Void

This list is burn-heavy, which is very appropriate for my meta - full of Stoneblade.dec, Dark Confidant, Cat Sligh, and Tribal decks. Burning Wish -> Devastating Dreams is, for lack of a better word, devastating in non-blue matchups. Burning Wish -> Perish also gives it a shot against NOPRO decks, which are otherwise a very bad matchup. Chalice comes in a against combo or decks like Cat Sligh and Burn where it saves your ass. Combo is still an incredibly bad matchup though, I don't ever really expect to win unless they go all-in on Empty the Warrens or whatever. I run no grave hate because nobody but me plays graveyard decks in my meta. This deck has performed pretty well, but I think I'm going to experiment with cutting black and running Knight and STP, as there's a lot of red spells in my meta and Bob rarely lives long enough to make a difference.

I experimented with the Naya list and found that it was even slower (too many three-drops). Also, Bob > KOTR.

[Richard Cheese]

If you can get the Loam engine going, Landstill should be an easy matchup. They have no effective way of dealing with Worm Harvest outside of Cunning Wish for Extirpate, but who really runs CWish in Landstill anymore?

The hard part was getting Loam going. I managed to stick an Assault and kill some Jaces (Jacei?), but he countered Loam probably 8-10 times over the course of the game, and I did a lot of dredging to get it back, which canned all my wishes. I think my mistake was breaking Standstill to try and cast Loam again. I was just trying to exhaust his counters before he found a Deed and nuked my Assault, but I probably should have waited it out and sculpted a hand so as to apply a lot of pressure at once.

[Hanni]

If he was able to counter Loam 8-10 times, my guess was that he nut draw'd against you. I'd say try the matchup a few more times before coming to any conclusions about the matchup. From my experience as both the Landstill player and the Aggro Loam player, Aggro Loam is favored.

[CorpT]

Wish/Fires makes any of those slow control decks much easier.

[Richard Cheese]

Well he was basically drawing everything but Deeds off Jace/Brainstorm/Standstill, and the couple Loams I punched through went towards killing Jace so he couldn't keep digging for counters/Deed...but yes, this is the first time I've tested that matchup and I still think it's favorable for Loam, just wondering about the correct lines of play.

@Corp, I was really hurting for some PFires that game, but I've been tinkering with various builds and this one didn't have them.

Question: If your meta is infested with combo, is it worth trying to run Chalices main, or should I just switch to Junk/Rock?

[sdematt]

When you're playing this deck, you're conceding to the point that you lose to combo. Unless you start running 4 Chalice and 4 Thorn of Amethyst, you're not getting there. Even then, you're still probably not getting there. And that's for TES; Against Hive Mind, you're basically fucked. I suggest boarding in Cursecatchers, Dazes, and Spellstutter Sprites :P

-Matt

[CorpT]

Yeah, there's no point in playing an Aggro Loam deck in a combo meta. You're just going to lose. And be frustrated while you do it.

[sdematt]

Took down the once-a-month Legacy playing Aggro Loam again.

My list:

3 Groves
2 Taiga
2 Bayou (should be 1 Bayou 2 Badlands I think)
1 Badlands
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Forest
1 Mountain
4 Wasteland
3 Forgotten Cave
3 Tranquil thicket
1 Volrath's Stronghold

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
3 Countryside Crusher
1 Terravore

2 Burning Wish (seems just about right, not too many, not too few)
2 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Life from the Loam
3 Seismic Assault
2 Sylvan Library
4 Mox Diamond
2 Go for the Throat
1 Putrefy
1 Terminate (I miss the 2nd a bit...but it became a Wish)
2 Punishing Fires

BOARD:

1 Firespout (really good in this tournament)
2 Perish
1 Hull Breach
1 Life from the Loam
1 Regrowth
3 Extirpate
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Krosan Grip
1 Ancient Grudge

Played against Elves, Folk, and Zoo. So delicious. Dropped a game against Merfolk, due to the "not having anything" plan, and Zoo happened to be living the dream with 3-4 PTE on my Goyfs. Luckily, I lived the dream and dropped Assault. All in all, a good day.

-Matt

[PanderAlexander]

Took down the once-a-month Legacy playing Aggro Loam again.

Played against Elves, Folk, and Zoo. So delicious. Dropped a game against Merfolk, due to the "not having anything" plan, and Zoo happened to be living the dream with 3-4 PTE on my Goyfs. Luckily, I lived the dream and dropped Assault. All in all, a good day.

-Matt

Congrats man, very nice deck choice and your sideboard basically ignored combo, sweet meta call going up against all creature decks.

[sdematt]

I prayed I didn't play against Hive Mind, let's put it that way.

Unless you redesign this deck, you're not beating that deck.

-Matt

[ESG]

Hive Mind sometimes gets poor draws, just like any deck. If you play Naya colors, the matchup improves because you pretty much make them combo you rather than Showing out an Emrakul, meaning they have to find Hive Mind. (You can also sometimes steal Game 1 if they plop down Emrakul without knowledge that you run Knight.) The matchup is still bad, but if you run Angel's Grace, then it vastly improves. But, in general, if Hive Mind is going to be a heavy part of your meta, I would not recommend Aggro Loam unless the rest of your meta is made up of favorable matchups.

[Richard Cheese]

What about dropping some removal for Hymns? Seems to work ok for Junk.

[Aggro_zombies]

What about dropping some removal for Hymns? Seems to work ok for Junk.
Why? Without an actual 8-10 card discard package, there's no benefit in the combo matchup. And even then, this deck isn't consistently fast enough to capitalize on the few turns discard will buy you.

Also, post-board, Hive Mind has Leyline of I-Have-Shroud (whatever it's called).

[Richard Cheese]

Oh, not necessarily for the combo matchup, just in general. I play Arzar's list almost exactly, just haven't felt any great need for the Bolts with Assault and Fire.

That said, I don't really know what problem Hymn solves, just looking for something that the deck doesn't already do well in the 1-2 cmc range. Maybe Gamble is better, maybe Edict, maybe Misstep, maybe Bolt is as good as it gets...

[Aggro_zombies]

Oh, not necessarily for the combo matchup, just in general. I play Arzar's list almost exactly, just haven't felt any great need for the Bolts with Assault and Fire.

That said, I don't really know what problem Hymn solves, just looking for something that the deck doesn't already do well in the 1-2 cmc range. Maybe Gamble is better, maybe Edict, maybe Misstep, maybe Bolt is as good as it gets...
I'm leery of having random disruption cards in a deck without any sort of "disruption architecture" to take advantage of them. One or two pieces of disruption tend to just not matter in-game, regardless of whether they're counters, discard, or whatever. It's easy to play around your opponent's disruption when you know that (a) he doesn't have a lot of it, and (b) you know exactly what all of it is - hell, in some cases you don't even have to play around it because, even if your opponent has the spell, it's not that bad for you, and if he doesn't, it's fantastic.

[sdematt]

In a deck with Multiple XRR, XGG, and RRR spells, I don't think adding BB would be a great idea. This manabase is already at the brink; adding a BB spell is backbreaking.

Plus, like people said, there's no way to capitalize on the advantage gained by Hymn. You honestly don't get enough out of it. 4 cards of interaction with your opponent isn't worth the effort, although I've always wanted an 8 piece disruption suite in this deck, there's just no room.

I think the deck is fine as is, unless a card comes out that makes Loam even better than it is, or a creature that's even better than the ones we're playing. Like something that searched for lands and put them into your hand, and Dredged, and lived in Christmas Land, where everything went your way.

-Matt

[C Rayz Walz]

sdematt- In your list why do you run go for the throat over smother? I don't really understand why people think gftt is better.

[sdematt]

There have been situations where Go for the Throat is better. I'll just have to think of them....but there have been occasions, mark my words! (Looks up the situations, doesn't find many...Reanimator?)

-Matt

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

There have been situations where Go for the Throat is better. I'll just have to think of them....but there have been occasions, mark my words! (Looks up the situations, doesn't find many...Reanimator?)

-Matt

Stuff Smother doesn't hit and GFFT does: Tombstalker, Dark Confidant, any creature from Reanimator, many Dread Return targets, etc...

Stuff Smother *does hit* which GFFT doesn't: Metalworker, Phyrexian Revoker, um....... *drawing a blank*...

I think Go For the Throat is usually better these days.

[Serbitar]

Stuff Smother doesn't hit and GFFT does: Tombstalker, Dark Confidant, any creature from Reanimator, many Dread Return targets, etc...

Stuff Smother *does hit* which GFFT doesn't: Metalworker, Phyrexian Revoker, um....... *drawing a blank*...

I think Go For the Throat is usually better these days.

Ehm, Smother hits Dark Confidant too. There is also most of Affinity.

[Serbitar]

Stuff Smother doesn't hit and GFFT does: Tombstalker, Dark Confidant, any creature from Reanimator, many Dread Return targets, etc...

Stuff Smother *does hit* which GFFT doesn't: Metalworker, Phyrexian Revoker, um....... *drawing a blank*...

I think Go For the Throat is usually better these days.

Ehm, Smother hits Dark Confidant, too. There is also most of Affinity and Painter's Servant.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

Ehm, Smother hits Dark Confidant, too. There is also most of Affinity and Painter's Servant.

D'oh on Confidant. This is 'Drunk Duke' talking... Anyhow, Painter's Servant is still relevant, but Affinity is kinda bad right now. I think Dismember + GFFT would be a pretty safe mix of spot removal currently, leaving hugeass artifact creatures as the stuff you can't hit. And there's always Diabolic Edict for the fatties if you want to mix it up more. I'm still not feeling Smother atm.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

Ehm, Smother hits Dark Confidant, too. There is also most of Affinity and Painter's Servant.

D'oh on Confidant. This is 'Drunk Duke' talking... Anyhow, Painter's Servant is still relevant, but Affinity is kinda bad right now. I think Dismember + GFFT would be a pretty safe mix of spot removal currently, leaving hugeass artifact creatures as the stuff you can't hit. And there's always Diabolic Edict for the fatties if you want to mix it up more. I'm still not feeling Smother atm.