[Deck] Aggro Loam

[sdematt]

I played it as both for a little while, and I wanted to damage to shoot Jace was basically what it came down to, and sometimes having Black was more of a problem than red.

-Matt

[Eventide]

Hi, I need your help: When playing against Loam, what do you think is the best moment to activate a Tormods Crypt? Well, obviously if they're tapped out, but what should I do, if they leave mana open for a cycle land?

[Aggro_zombies]

Hi, I need your help: When playing against Loam, what do you think is the best moment to activate a Tormods Crypt? Well, obviously if they're tapped out, but what should I do, if they leave mana open for a cycle land?
What deck are you running?

If you can somehow force them to cycle, you can Crypt in response to the activation, but I'm not sure how you could force an opponent to try to rescue Loam on your turn without using another piece of graveyard hate first. You can also Crypt them in response to Loam to fizzle it; they still have a Loam, but it will take some time for them to get it back up to full power.

Can you post some examples of game states or something? Often it's difficult to snag a Loam with Crypt unless you sandbag Crypt until they tap out.

[sdematt]

Played my Jund list today. Felt very solid. Lost some post-board matchups against RUG when I either a) drew into nothing, b) he had the quadruple Delver, Triple Mongoose Hand, c) had three Surgical Extractions.

Overall though, it felt super awesome, and I'd definitely run it again. I think I'd being in Perish against RUG though, since more things to kill Mongeese isn't a bad thing at all.

-Matt

[razvan]

I want to play this at Indy, but god-damn, I hope i don't punk out and ad-lib to something else. I have played Loam almost exclusively for so long, playing something else will just feel wrong.

And yes, I am thinking this is the possible best removal suite at this moment:

2 Engineered Explosives
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Punishing Fire
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Liliana of the Veil
3 Seismic Assault

Explosives are really good against Delver decks, especially as they are taking out stifles because they are "bad cards".

[Aggro_zombies]

The flipped side of Delver is cmc zero, right? Seems awkward to EE that because you want your Diamonds against RUG. But I guess between Bolt, Fires, and Assault there are plenty of answers to Delver.

[Dark Ritual]

Yeah delver shouldn't be much of a problem. You can race delver effectively as well as just lavamancer it, bolt it, EE it unflipped or if you have a diamondless draw it's just as easy to pop it for 0. Also seismic assault. Delver doesn't seem as big an issue as you getting locked out by wasteland or some other shenanigans, overall the canadian thresh MU though is quite good for loam though since if you resolve a loam targeting 2 or more lands it's typically GG's.

[Aggro_zombies]

Yeah delver shouldn't be much of a problem. You can race delver effectively as well as just lavamancer it, bolt it, EE it unflipped or if you have a diamondless draw it's just as easy to pop it for 0. Also seismic assault. Delver doesn't seem as big an issue as you getting locked out by wasteland or some other shenanigans, overall the canadian thresh MU though is quite good for loam though since if you resolve a loam targeting 2 or more lands it's typically GG's.
It's actually kind of draw dependent, though I generally agree. Ditching Stifle actually makes it better for you because it's harder for them to hamstring you on mana for the first couple of turns. Running Lavamancer really helps, too.

In the olden days (before Delver), my plan was usually to play conservatively for the first couple of turns, build mana, take some damage, then stabilize and Wasteland them out. They're almost 100% nonbasics, so it's not hard to destroy their mana and then ride a Crusher to victory. It's their fast hands that worry you.

[razvan]

The flipped side of Delver is cmc zero, right? Seems awkward to EE that because you want your Diamonds against RUG. But I guess between Bolt, Fires, and Assault there are plenty of answers to Delver.
Yeah, it is zero. I was mostly referring as an out to the stupid Mongoose. But it is too bad it can't hit both the flipped Delver and the Mongoose.

We shall see.

[Dark Ritual]

Yeah, typically their manabase is all trop's and volc's so wasteland locking them is pretty easy and if you get the wastelock going before they lay down a threat you're going to be heavily favored to win the game. And if one of your big threats resolves namely crusher and sticks around for a turn you're likely going to win if crusher grows at all and hits a good spell other than mox diamond. Just don't get blown out by stifle in the early game and you'll probably win the attrition war.

[sdematt]

If you've got the removal, keep them off Volcs if you can tie up the board with big dudes so they can't burn you out. Then, just land Assault and destroy them.

EE at 1 is your best bet, since it's your only real way of interacting with Goose.

Remember, REB out of the board is an effective answer for Delver, if you have to.

My removal suite:

2 Engineered Explosives
2 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Terminate
3 Seismic Assault

It is a bit less than what you've got going on, but to be fair, Sylvan Library is also the tits. I don't really mind cutting the slower removal (Fires is great, but slow and isn't the best against Maverick or anything) for the EE.

What's your current list with the Liliana, Raz?

-Matt

[Aggro_zombies]

You don't run Bolts, Matt? Do you have Chalices or are you just skipping the 1cc slot?

[razvan]

Matt, this is the latest right now:


4 Dark Confidant
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Liliana of the Veil (NOOOOOOOOOOO!)

4 Life from the Loam
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Seismic Assault
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Punishing Fire
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Sylvan Library

4 Mox Diamond
4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Badlands
2 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Taiga
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Forgotten Cave
2 Tranquil Thicket
2 Mountain
1 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Barbarian Ring / Volrath's Stronghold

I was looking at Terminate too, but I think Bolt is straight-up more solid. The rest seems very similar.

Also, the sideboard will be crucial for Indy, I think, more than anything. I think that it has to start like this:

4 REB/Pyro

Beyond that something like:

4 Leyline of the Void/Surgical
3 Devastating Dreams
2 Krosan Grip
2 Kitchen Finks?

I think burn is a pretty strong deck, and you generally cannot win or race it. Dreams is pretty fun against them. Block creatures, even with confidant, burn the others, try to keep your life up, and Devastating Dreams at 2 or 3. Dreams is so good, it's our one weapon against burn or combo or whatever :D

[Aggro_zombies]

Wait, no Crusher? Interesting.

Zuran Orb is probably a bit better than Kitchen Finks versus burn. A three mana three-power guy doesn't really pressure them much, is too slow to block, and I don't know how often you will get the full four life off of it. Assuming a Mox-less draw, it will come down right around the time they are getting close to killing you, and they can just not attack into it (or try to alpha around it) if they don't want you to gain another two life.

Orb is vulnerable to artifact hate and lifegain hate, sure, but it's great versus PoP and will generally slow them down a bit until they find a way to mitigate it.

[razvan]

Tony suggested using only Crushers. I don't know. I just think that the lower CMC is better. It's really up in the air. I wish I had space for them all. I might have to cut down on the hate.

Finks was a bad idea, it was more me thinking. What else could go in there? Noxious Revivals seem sort of eh, but they are good. Or can be, I don't know what to side them in against.

I honestly wouldn't mind putting in 2 Ancient Grudges either. More Affinity/other random crap hate. Put that and forget about burn, since I doubt we can swing that match in our favor too much.

[Aggro_zombies]

If you don't use Leyline of the Void, you don't need the full four graveyard hate slots. 2-3 Surgical is probably fine. Leyline is one of those really iffy cards whose potential upside has always masked its real mediocrity; you might dreamcrush Dredge players with it, but you can dreamcrush Dredge players with a combination of Oozes, Extractions, and Dreams, so...

I would probably wait to construct a sideboard until you get to the event. I don't know if there will be any last-chance grinders for byes, but if there are and you can scout them, that will help. I think a reasonable start on a board will be this:

2 REB
2 Pyroblast (or however you want to split it)
3 Surgical
3 Dreams
2 Grip
3 Flex

With options for the flex slots consisting of Ancient Grudge, Noxious Revival, Zuran Orb, Shattering Spree, Virtue's Ruin, Perish, and/or Thoughtseize. There might be some other niche cards I'm not thinking of, but that list looks like it covers most of what you could want for those last few slots.

[razvan]

Well, i have 3 byes, so I am only getting to indy friday night. I doubt I can scout.

I have played a few dredges with 3 extirpate/surgicals, and it didn't go too well. Leyline seems more solid. It just seems that all I do is cut down on the number of bad match-ups.

4 Leylines, 3 Dreams, 2 Oozes and maybe Explosives/Pulse/Luck should be enough for burn. :P

I might end up with 2 Lili MD and 1 SB. I really like that card :)

[Fade]

Well, i have 3 byes, so I am only getting to indy friday night. I doubt I can scout.

I have played a few dredges with 3 extirpate/surgicals, and it didn't go too well. Leyline seems more solid. It just seems that all I do is cut down on the number of bad match-ups.

4 Leylines, 3 Dreams, 2 Oozes and maybe Explosives/Pulse/Luck should be enough for burn. :P

I might end up with 2 Lili MD and 1 SB. I really like that card :)

I also agree with running some number of Crusher/Terravore in the deck. I'm running 3 Crusher and 1 Terravore which can be brought back with Stronghold. Other than that I think you have a lot of burn in your md and I would cut pfires if you aren't running chalice. They are a bit slow and mana intensive compared to bolts but are awesome if you have a chalice at 1.


On the note of Zuran Orb I'm not sure how effective it would be as I doubt the burn player would expect it game 2 but in game 3 they would have access to Smash to Smithereens.

[sdematt]

I'm not running Bolts, and instead running Terminates. I really don't like Knights, and the removal quality of Terminate is unparalleled in the colours we're running. I mean, I run into Knights and big Goyfs in my meta all day, so I *can't* run Bolt and get there. I use my Assault instead to take out the small guys if need be.

I think Terravore is REALLY good now. Most people aren't running whole-graveyard removal, they're running Surgical. I ran it out against Delver and they scooped, but it was a 6/6 on turn 2, so I'm not surprised.

"Wherever I may Loam"

4 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
3 Taiga
2 Badlands
1 Bayou
2 Mountain
1 Forest
3 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Barbarian Ring
3 Tranquil Thicket
3 Forgotten Cave

3 Countryside Crusher
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Dark Confidant
1 Terravore

4 Mox Diamond
4 Life from the Loam
3 Seismic Assault
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Sylvan Library
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Noxious Revival

----

First of all, my old list compared to this one was:

-1 Barbarian Ring
-1 Taiga
-1 Noxious Revival
-2 Engineered Explosives
-2 Scavenging Ooze

+2 Punishing Fires
+3 Grove of the Burnwillows
+1 Goyf
+1 Entomb

I like Fires combo, but I've found the EE's to be much better. Obviously running both is better, but I'm running a few more creatures. Goyf has still been superb, and the Oozes have been pretty good so far. Terravore is always amazing when I hit it, and the 1-of Revival: the tits.

I'm also wondering why y'all haven't run Sylvan Library yet. Maybe lack of space? Digging is so important in this deck, and Dredging more for free is great. Try it!

My board is something like:

3 REB
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Krosan Grip
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Noxious Revival
2 Virtue's Ruin
1 Perish

Surgical and REB come in against Combo, as does Revival if need be. Ruin and Perish come in against Maverick. Grudge, REB, and Grip against Stoneblade.

All in all, it's been super fun. Ideally, I'd be playing 1-2 Liliana and 3 Bolts in addition to what I'm running, but I have 0 slots. Sleeve up my list and give it a try. It's pretty decent, thusfar.

-Matt

[razvan]

Tested again about 20 games RUG vs. Aggro Loam with that decklist, and again it seems hopeless pre-board. Either I have a damn good RUG list or I have the worst luck ever.

[sdematt]

Really? I didn't have it that bad at all. I was winning most of my preboard games.

What do you find in your decklist that lets you beat RUG much better than my list?

-Matt

[Fade]

Tested again about 20 games RUG vs. Aggro Loam with that decklist, and again it seems hopeless pre-board. Either I have a damn good RUG list or I have the worst luck ever.

Have the matches been close at all? Essentially if you land a big goyf or crusher you should just win pre board. The fires and explosives clear way for their delvers and other creatures and if you ran chalice it blanks about half their deck if not more.


With sylvan library I used to run it as a one of for testing purposes but my list was tight and I shaved it. I might have to run them again though.

[razvan]

Hm, good question. Some have been close, but they are just able to burn me out from 6-8 or so. Sometimes, their wastes and dazes and forces are too much, and being able to burn down Confidants puts me in a bad attrition state, and they win handily.

These are all pre-board, btw. Post-board, it gets slightly better, since I have 4 REBs to counter their board. Funny enough, they have more cards to bring in against me (submerges and cranial extractions), but that dilutes their deck a lot more.

Honestly, that is probably the reason. RUG is fast, has cheap, undercosted threats that can be deployed really quickly, has burn and free counterspells to deal with whatever I play, and Delver + Mongoose are sick. I generally lose more games to a T1 delver or a couple of mongeese than goyf.

[razvan]

Ok so I sort of realized a few things. This might be completely wrong, and please feel free to bash me over the head with something (preferably Penny from Big Bang Theory). This is specifically for GP:Indy.

Right now, these are the decks that are going to be very popular: Burn, Dredge, Stoneblade, RUG delver, Maverick.

There will be a few others: BUG, SnT Combo, Elves, MUD, Bant of sorts, and Junk.

Aggro Loam doesn’t really have the greatest match-ups against most of those decks, however. Stoneblade and Maverick are pretty good for us, but the linear decks of burn combo and dredge could be bad. There is still the stupid RUG delver issue, but most of you say that’s not an issue. My RUG delver list runs 3-4 Chain Lightning, so maybe the overload of burn is the problem for me.

Dredge/Reanimator/Lands/Other GY decks can be answered from the sideboard. I am not sure why, but I feel like packing a healthy amount of GY hate. 4 Leylines, maybe even 1-2 Bojuka Bogs.

Burn and Combo, I think there is no way I can make that matchup even, but I will hope for the best, and hope that I can draw a Devastating Dreams against Burn (maybe 2!), and same against combo, alongside 4 REBs.

Also, I have (tentatively) decided to make a small change to the maindeck:

-3 Seismic Assault
-3 Countryside Crusher

Yes, I have gone mad. Here’s my thought through testing 60 games vs. RUG (and extrapolating it to similar decks, burn, UR delver).

First, this deck will be incredibly popular. It’s cheap, easy, smooth, fun to play, gets there quickly, thus giving a lot of rest time.

Secondly, there is no real late game. You will not be able to rely on resolving either of those 2 cards against them. You need stuff to get you there right now. Those cards do not seem like they can do so.

Crusher, IMO can be really bad. You cannot cast him once you hit 3 mana. Burn, Daze and such are a big deal. Even with a fetch or something, they can still deal with him in response to his trigger. Yes, if you ever untap with him, it’s probably game, unless they have a Delver and blockers, snapcaster, etc. So I think that at least for now, he’s not the greatest threat. Also, I have played without him, and never missed him. I have played with him, and sided him out a lot. He’s just too damned slow.

Same obviously goes for burn and other brutal decks.

Instead, I have gone back to this package of creatures:

4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Scavenging Ooze
1-2 Terravore

So why Terravore, the good old standby? Well, I have always been a fan of him. Secondly, he often starts out bigger than Crusher (and anything else), and he’s hard to burn or Dismember. Third, I like trample.

Ooze is amazing. Goyf isn’t that amazing anymore, but he is still goyf. He’s the perfect 2nd turn creature, when he’s a 3/4 for 2 mana.

Now, why not Seismic Assault? This card is phenomenal.

It is. It is very difficult to lose once you have Loam and Seismic and a nice life buffer. Problem is, you rarely have Loam and Seismic and a nice life buffer. I generally always have 2 out of 3, and that’s not always good enough.

So, I decided, on a non-precedential basis, to take out the Seismics. Just for one event.

So I end up with this:

4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Scavenging Ooze
1-2 Terravore

2 Liliana of the Veil

4 Life from the Loam
4 Lightning Bolt
3-4 Punishing Fire
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Sylvan Library

Mana base is according, 4 mox diamonds, 4 cycle, 6 fetch, 4 waste, 2 basic, 3 grove, 6-7 duals, 0-1 specialty land.

So more jund aggro with loam than aggro loam. But, we shall see.

[Aggro_zombies]

I think dropping all the Assaults is a mistake. Assault beats a lot of fair decks by itself and is far more crushing going long than Punishing Fires. I would consider keeping some in your 75 if you can.

If you are dropping Assaults, though, you may want to shave into the number of Loams you run. I think Loam's best uses, in order, are Wastelocking people, powering Assault, and drawing cards. You want the full four Loams if you are trying to accomplish all of those, but you don't need them if you're only trying to do some of them. You're probably okay with 3 Loams in an Assault-less build.

Consider Grim Lavamancer. Guy is good and gives you another way to interact with RUG and UR Delver early.

I agree that Crusher is not that great in Bolt.format. Terravore looks pretty sweet right now.

While the tiers are pretty defined at this point thanks to SCG, a GP event typically has a much more diverse field. Granted, you have three byes, so you're probably going to drop down into the middle of a DtB showcase. But I don't think it will be nearly as homogenous as an SCG event: Burn is on people's radars right now, so I don't think it will do as well at a bigger event. True combo decks (as opposed to "soft" combo decks like Burn and dredge) may be back in vogue now given the recent uptick in non-blue linears. Consider some Thorns of Amethyst.

[Hanni]

I see absolutely no reason to drop Assault. That's one of the main reasons for even playing Aggro Loam. At the point where you drop Crusher too, you'd be much better off cutting red altogether and playing either Rock Loam with Knight's, or some sort of blue splashes control Loam deck (like The Mind Harvester). I would never, ever cut Assaults from Aggro Loam. Punishing Fires is not a replacement.

[razvan]

Hanni: Lightning Bolt and Punishing Fire (although at this point I could see myself adding freaking Chain Lightnings for how good R->3 damage is) are the bomb. I really think Bolts will rule Indy. However, you are correct, I need to find a way to get them back. Stupid Seismic Assault.

A_Z: Ok, how about this:

-4 Punishing Fire
+2 Chain Lightning
+2 Seismic Assault

I actually do think CL is a good idea. It will allow me to get rid of the awkward Punishing Fire mana base, still have a lot of burn (which I like), put 2 Assaults back, and have more cyclers maybe?

Then just keep it at 1 Terravore as a miser draw (since I only freaking have one, what the hell, did someone eat the entire print run?)... you f-kers better not link me to eBay though :P

So now mana:

4 Mox Diamond
4 Wasteland
3 Badlands
3 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Mountain
1 Forest
5 Cycle Lands (3R 2G)
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Bojuka Bog

4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Terravore

2 Liliana of the Veil

4 Life from the Loam
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Chain Lightning
2 Seismic Assault
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Sylvan Library

If i haven't broken the thread with my stupid decklists...

[Aggro_zombies]

I would try Lavamancer over Chain Lightning. With the amount of red in the format right now, there's a decent chance they'll be able to chain it back at you. Lavamancer at least Duresses a removal spell, and if they don't have one he makes casting guys pretty awkward.

Bog in the main seems so-so. Without Knights to fetch it up, you're left drawing or dredging into it, which is fine for a powerful stand-alone effect like Stronghold, but not as hot for a hate card.

Also, I'd reeeeaaaaally consider Zuran Orbs in the board for the red matchups.

EDIT: I don't feel comfortable dropping all the Crushers. They're really a compelling reason to run the Loam engine. I'm wondering if you could go to three Goyfs, drop Bog, add two Crushers. But then you have a lot of threes...hmm.

EDIT 2: Liliannas are probably not maindeckable right now. Three mana for Edict + fog a guy just does not seem very well positioned versus tempo or burn-based decks. If you like her - and you seem to - you may want to consider boarding her for slower matchups. As-is, I'd suggest -2 Chain Lightning, -2 Lili, -1 Goyf, +3 Crusher, +2 Grim Lavamancer. Consider swapping Bog to Ring.

[razvan]

Problem with ZOrb is that i would need at least 3 or maybe even 4 to draw it quickly. And space is tight, unless i ignore the Dredge match-up and Reanimator match-up completely. What sort of board would you run?

Hm... I had Lavamancer and wasn't too impressed. It was difficult to get enough cards in the GY to make him work, between Loam and Ooze. I have to think about it.

I played a bit without crushers, and it was not a problem. They are nice if you untap with them. But sometimes, you don't get to do so.

edit: interesting on Liliana. However, Fog + Edict is pretty good against tempo, it kills something and gets me another turn from another. Hell, I have another in the SB for the really slow matchups.

And yeah, you are very correct on Ring to Bog.

[Aggro_zombies]

Fair enough on Crushers. Still not sold on maindeck Lili, though.

I'm not sure what I'd board. I would probably not make a decision until the day-of:

2 REB -obvious
2 Pyroblast - obvious
3 Surgical - Reanimator, Dredge, Snapcaster (Stoneblade)
3 Dreams - Maverick, combo
2 Grip - Equipment (Stoneblade), MUD

With the last three slots being some of the following:

Zuran Orb: Burn, UR Delver, storm
Thorn of Amethyst: Burn, UR Delver, storm
Noxious Revival: Attrition matchups, possibly tempo.
Virtue's Ruin: Maverick, NO decks, Bant
Perish: Maverick, NO decks, Bant
Ancient Grudge: Equipment, Affinity, MUD
Thoughtseize: Combo, midrange/control with combo finish
Chainer's Edict / Diabolic Edict: Reanimator, NO decks
Bojuka Bog: Reanimator, Dredge
Shattering Spree: Equipment, Affinity, MUD
Sylvan Library: Attrition, decks with discard
Cursed Totem: Stoneforge Mystic decks, Maverick, random decks

There's a bunch of overlap there, but some cards are better at one end of the overlap than the others. I wouldn't consider boarding heavily for Storm, since you can't really beat it (in b4 blue splash). The remaining "combo" decks you're likely to see are Reanimator, Burn, Dredge, Painter, and probably some form of Show and Tell. Reanimator and Dredge overlap in the hate department, Painter piggybacks off your artifact hate, and Burn and SnT need dedicated hate cards. SnT is unlikely to show up in large numbers, so I'd suggest something for burn.

[AggroSteve]

noxios revival should be really good against reanimator as well, placing their reanimation target on top of their library and taking one of their drawsteps in the course seem quite good to me, but i have to admit i am not that expierienced with that matchup.

i would probably use one of these or maybe a combination: zuran orb / ancient grudge /noxios revival

i also would cut 1 dreams but that would be personal preference

[Aggro_zombies]

Dreams are probably the softest spot of the cards I would definitely include. I used three because the land destruction element is surprisingly useful - I remember completely destroying Enchantress decks with resolved Dreams because of how mana-hungry they are. It's also pretty good against midrange decks and non-Vial aggro decks.

[sdematt]

It also hits Mongoose and Delvers so hard. Mind you, it's easily countered, but still.

I'd say cut 1 Dreams for a Virtue's Ruin. Serves double-duty against Reanimator, and it hoses Maverick.

With the 3 remaining Slots, I'd run at least 1 Noxious Revival and 1 Grudge. Grudge is too good not to play, and Affinity will be popular at Indy. It's cheap and good right now. Revival helps you survive their Surgicals, as well. Or, you can put garbage on top to pollute their draws, hose their graveyard, or give yourself a recursion for Assault/EE/etc.

I'm not even sure if you really *need* 4 Blasts. Not saying they're bad, just, it opens up a slot.

-Matt

[razvan]

Ok so that decklist above, I forgot the Bayou. Cut a Cave for it.

And I ran about 10 more games vs. delver, and now I am winning pretty good. I even got a 4-1 EE :P 2 geese, 1 unflipped delver and the top (well, top bounced itself, but still).

Lavamancers are a great idea A_Z. I had them before, cut them because of the fires, but with those gone, they are good. 2 is also enough.

Terravore and 4 Goyf is good too. I managed to give him +3/+3 with a funky Life dredge (mox, assault, liliana).

As for the SB, I think 3 dreams is pretty key. It gives you the ability to steal a game from your really bad match-ups.

4 REB
3 Dreams
2 Grip
2 Grudge
4 Leyline

I think I would be happy with this, and if I run against burn, eh... can't win 'em all. I would rather shore up Dredge and Artifact hate rather than over-generalize.

[Swing4Five]

I'm a bit confused on how there hasn't been any discussion of Faithless Looting in this thread. The Looting + Loam interaction is the reason I'm thinking of picking this deck back up for bigger tournaments.

I don't have my list in front of me right now, but I think this is where I left it after a local weeknight event last week.

3 Faithless Looting
2 Inquisition of Kozilek

4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Life from the Loam
3 Punishing Fire

2 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Lilliana of the Veil
3 Seismic Assault

4 Mox Diamond
1 Forest
1 Mountain
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Bayou
2 Badlands
1 Taiga
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Forgotten Cave
2 Tranquil Thicket
4 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold

Sideboard (without this in front of me I just re-built it from the ground up)
2 Choke
2 REB
2 Lightning Bolt
1 Inquisition
1 Thoughtseize
1 Raven's Crime
2 Krosan Grip
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Faerie Macabre

[razvan]

Again, since you only have a basic forest and a basic mountain, make it 4 Foothills, 2 Mire.

Looting is not a bad idea, the problem is imo, you don't want to durdle around. You have a great long game anyway, it's your short game that needs help.

Also, you want bolts over punishing fire. The extra damage for one less mana is really good, and you don't have to mess around with a 2-card combo that would make the other card useless if an Extirpate effect hits.

[Aggro_zombies]

Looting seems fine but I think it's in third place after Bob and Sylvan Library. There's also the problem that a lot of lists are tight, and Looting doesn't do anything essential for you. In the early game, it's not as good at digging for answers as Library, and doesn't block or soak up removal like Bob; in the late game, it's going to give you fewer cards than an active Library or Bob would have.

I also don't like Inquisition. Discard as a disruption strategy tends to get better when it's surrounded with other discard, in the same way counterspells get better when you have a bunch of them as opposed to a few. Aggro Loam doesn't have a lot of room for discard and would get more mileage out of something more brute-forcey, like Raven's Crime.

[razvan]

So I played in a 31-man event today, and I sort of got rocked.

R1 - 2-1 vs. Stoneblade
R2 - 0-2 vs. Affinity
R3 - 2-0 vs. Maverick w/ Red
R4 - 0-2 vs. U/R delver
R5 - 0-2 vs. Dredge

I punted the matches vs. dredge, I could have easily won G1 if i wasn't an idiot. So that last round is sort of iffy. He (Dejan) is a good player, but I think I should have won.

The affinity match-up is a f-k-up anyway. He was attacking on turn 2 with cranial plating. Not much you can do against that despite having 2 Grudge, 2 Grip, 2 Pulse, 2 EE, Bolts, Lavamancer, none of which I saw G1 or G2.

The UR delver match-up was a bit of a bad luck too. In game 1, I dredged 6 times, never dredging a land, and I drew (off cyclers and such) about 16 cards, ALL land. He attacked with Goblin Guide game 1, I revealed a land, then killed the Goblin, and that was the ONLY damage any of his creatures did to me, in either game. He simply burned me to death.

So yeah, I am sort of depressed and don't really know if I want to take this to Indy. But I have to, since it's really the only deck I am comfortable with. Maybe GW-b or GW-r maverick. But this deck, I am so comfortable with, and it might just do really well because of that... or if I face Maverick and Stoneblade all freaking day.

So now, back to the discussion.

You cannot plan for both burn and GY hate. I am still thinking about trying Zuran Orb, but I don't know. I might just SB for one, and hope to dodge the other.

Also, Scavenging Ooze is simply amazing. It's good in pretty much EVERY match-up, except maybe most combo. It makes your good match-ups better, and it gives you a shot against your bad match-ups. It helps against burn, it would have won against dredge if I wasn't stupid.

I want to play 4.

Also, I think I will try without Seismic Assault. It might shave some points off some match-ups, but they are so bad in your bad match-ups, and don't really help your good match-ups that much.

I really wanna fit in 3 MD Ooze and another in the SB, or maybe all 4 MD. At some point, I believed that 4 Ooze might be a pretty standard thing, and I think now is the time.

You play it and it doesn't die against UR or RUG, and that's all. You have Ooze + Mox against Dredge, and you can win.

In the list above, I might take out the 2 Seismics for an Ooze and maybe another or something else.

So now, why would you play Aggro Loam without Seismics or Crushers?

Well, I think that having Goyfs + Bolts + Ooze + Bobs is the way to go, and this is the only deck that can run it. You still have Loams for wastelocks and drawing a few times off cyclers, but you are not so dependent on loams anymore, even though they win game 1.

I am tempted to even put 2 Strongholds in the deck, but that might be overkill.

Anyway, and I really need to rethink the SB. I might need to try something drastic.

Anyone else planning to play Aggro Loam going?

[Dark Ritual]

I might run loam at Indy, still undecided. I also played with Antonius' list in a tournament today, going 3-2-1 and lost in the deciding round to mono blue faeries + ninjas + standstills.dec, crushing him game 1, then drawing rather poorly in games 2 and 3 in game 3 I would have won if firespout resolved but he had force and I got loam flooded instead of drawing any practical cards like lavamancer, bolt, a black source, or anything really. Also lost to affinity, game 1 I couldn't answer tezzeret and game 2 he got turn 1 plating into turn 2 etched champion into turn 3 plating to kill me on turn 4. I really like the list though overall, cutting seismic's and crusher's is the last thing I want to do as seismic was a beating all day against every deck I faced, except when I didn't draw loam one time. Crusher is still the best creature in the deck by far in terms of power and toughness with bob still being the nuts. If I anticipate lots of blue at Indianapolis I will probably roll with Antonius' list there.

[timmycolossus]

My ignorance is showing here. Out of curiosity has any tried (I certainty have not) exploration or tabernacle in this deck? Would exploration give the deck a better turn 1 in combination with mox diamond? Is tabernacle to far from the decks purpose?

[Aggro_zombies]

My ignorance is showing here. Out of curiosity has any tried (I certainty have not) exploration or tabernacle in this deck? Would exploration give the deck a better turn 1 in combination with mox diamond? Is tabernacle to far from the decks purpose?
I tried Exploration once, years ago. It was so-so. It might be worth revisiting, but I honestly don't know what to cut for it.

Tabernacle really isn't needed, between Dreams, Assault, and potentially Firespout and Virtue's Ruin/Perish if you need them.

[timmycolossus]

What if you just run the land guys (knight, csc, terravore) with exploration loam devastating dreams, seismic, and lands. If you so desired punishing fire as well I guess. This is just a shot in the dark. I am not really experienced with the deck but from playing it the last month I felt as though the deck is missing something.

[Aggro_zombies]

What if you just run the land guys (knight, csc, terravore) with exploration loam devastating dreams, seismic, and lands. If you so desired punishing fire as well I guess. This is just a shot in the dark. I am not really experienced with the deck but from playing it the last month I felt as though the deck is missing something.
I would not want to maindeck Dreams in a format where the two best decks are blue decks with Spell Snare (and sometimes Spell Pierce). There are very few times where Mind Twisting yourself into a counter is safe, and the longer you try to bait out their counters, the worse your Dreams get.

That aside, I'm not a fan of decks with really polarized curves - that is, decks with a bunch of cheap accelerators and big spells. Not only do they tend to get really awkward draws (like all accel and nothing to accel into, or too much big stuff and not enough accel), I'm also not tremendously fond of running non-creature accelerators because then your accel cards don't do anything on the side: Hierarch can at least attack for one, for example. Extra Mox Diamonds are already weak draws because they are just totally blank once you have a lot of mana; having 4 Diamond 4 Exploration opens you up to a lot of blank draws, although I guess it's not significantly worse than the old 4 Diamond 4 Chalice builds where subsequent Chalices were actually the worst because you can't profitably cast them for anything but x=1, whereas an extra Mod Diamond is at least a little more mana.

Specific to your example, in a deck with all three-drop dudes and Assault, you really need an Exploration or Mox Diamond to do anything early, and Exploration tends to empty your hand of lands, weakening Dreams and Assault unless you have a Loam. I think I tried Exploration in a Naya Loam list that durdled around with a high curve, and Exploration felt more like a band-aid there than an actual power card, the sole exception being when you Wastelanded someone right out of the game.

As for what this deck's missing, it's a format where playing a Life from the Loam deck is a good idea.

[timmycolossus]

kk. Thanks.

[sdematt]

The main problem is we're a deck that's REALLY great at the long game. As in, insanely awesome. Very few decks have the long game potential that we do. Our main problem is landing and sticking a threat early, and successfully getting there with it. We have few cheap threats, and if you don't hit Loams or draw spells early, all you're doing is drawing lands and saying pass.

Loam was excellent, and just starting to catch on in a format shaped by Mental Misstep. By making Turn 3 the critical turn instead of turn 2, the format was shaped in such a way that we could be ourselves (=bad) in the early game, and make up for it by turn 4 or 5. Now, we don't have that kind of time to wait. Burn is a real deck for some reason, and Delver.deck is pretty fast. Sure, we'll still be the tits against Stoneblade, but still.

Also, I ran Dreams in the board at GP Seattle, and it was pretty decent. Held its own against White Weenie, Maverick, Elves, Goblins, etc.

-Matt

[Aggro_zombies]

The main problem is we're a deck that's REALLY great at the long game. As in, insanely awesome. Very few decks have the long game potential that we do. Our main problem is landing and sticking a threat early, and successfully getting there with it. We have few cheap threats, and if you don't hit Loams or draw spells early, all you're doing is drawing lands and saying pass.

Loam was excellent, and just starting to catch on in a format shaped by Mental Misstep. By making Turn 3 the critical turn instead of turn 2, the format was shaped in such a way that we could be ourselves (=bad) in the early game, and make up for it by turn 4 or 5. Now, we don't have that kind of time to wait. Burn is a real deck for some reason, and Delver.deck is pretty fast. Sure, we'll still be the tits against Stoneblade, but still.

Also, I ran Dreams in the board at GP Seattle, and it was pretty decent. Held its own against White Weenie, Maverick, Elves, Goblins, etc.

-Matt
I like Dreams, just not in the main. The card seems like a complete blowout against Maverick, for example.

[bfeingersh]

So I lent a friend my regular legacy deck for #GPIndy and ended up borrowing Aggro Loam for an 85-person tournament today. I had a great time, played the deck cold although I lost in the last round to miss top 8 at 4-2-1. On the way back we argued a bunch about the list, so I figured I'd throw it up here and see what people think.

4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Countryside Crusher
1 Terravore

4 Life from the Loam
2 Faithless Looting
3 Maelstrom Pulse

3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Seismic Assault

2 Lightning Bolt
3 Punishing Fire

4 Mox Diamond

2 Badlands
1 Taiga
2 Bayou
3 Forgotten Cave
2 Tranquil Thicket
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Volrath's Stronghold
6 Fetches of various colors
4 Wasteland
1 Mountain
1 Forest

Sideboard:
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Thoughtseize
3 Choke
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Pyroblast
4 Leyline of the Void

Matchups:
1 Burn W 2-1 (1-0)
2 Elves L 0-2 (1-1)
3 Stoneblade T 1-1-1 (1-1-1)
4 Zoo W 2-1 (2-1-1)
5 Bant Maverick W 2-0 (3-1-1)
6 Bant Maverick W 2-0 (4-1-1)
7 Stoneblade L 0-2 (4-2-1)

I'm doing this from memory and I hadn't seen the list before this morning, but I think that was it. It might be -1 Fetch +1 Punishing Fire, but I think it was 26 lands 4 Moxen. I wanted Scavenging Oozes, but both other guys in the car were using 2 each (in Red Maverick and Bant) and I couldn't find any to trade for.

Anyway, here are my questions/suggestions:

1) Where can I cut a land to get a basic swamp in there? I really wanted one to fetch up when I get Path-ed. It seemed very difficult to cast Liliana unless I had a Mox in my opener.

2) Looting felt pretty win-more. It didn't do much unless I had a Loam going.

3) If I wanted to add a Burning Wish sideboard, what could I cut from the main? I was thinking -1 Loam, -1 Pulse, -2 Looting.

4) I also wanted Oozes, but I didn't want to cut down on creatures since it felt pretty light there as is. Maybe -1 Liliana, -1 Goyf, +2 Ooze? I didn't draw Crusher a single time today so I'm not sure how I like him. Terravore is boss status though.

Anyway, had a great time fumbling through the tournament today. Definitely going to try putting this deck together to play again.

[Aggro_zombies]

To answer your questions:

1) You can shave a Wasteland, probably, or a Grove. I do not like Liliana in a Punishing Fires version of the deck because the manabase blows.

2) Agreed.

3) Don't do it. Burning Wish has a number of problems. For starters, it's an enormous tempo sink in a format largely defined by tempo plays; it also doesn't help that it has "Spell Snare me" written all over it and your build largely lacks other good Snare targets. More generally, it encourages you to run a gimmicky half-sideboard, which weakens your games two and three because you don't have much to bring in (limited space for non-Wish targets), while your opponents have some idea of what your countermeasures are thanks to g1 Wishes and can board appropriately. I also don't think it improves your game one all that much, although YMMV depending on the matchup and the cards you're getting with Wish.

4) 3 Liliana is probably too much. I would definitely either cut them completely (thereby improving your mana), or drop down to two and cut a Crusher for 2 Oozes.

EDIT: Updated the second post. People can now weigh on what additional stuff they want to see (aside from matchup analyses).

[alrightgame]

Has anyone tried faithless looting? I feel it could add to the decks end game consistency, and act as a really explosive cycle land. What do you guys think?

[Dark Ritual]

Has anyone tried faithless looting? I feel it could add to the decks end game consistency, and act as a really explosive cycle land. What do you guys think?

Maybe if you read the posts your question would be answered. Faithless looting is only good when you dredge it with loam and usually bad in hand because you'd rather be casting things other than durdling around with looting. But even when you dredge it with loam, it's 3 mana to flashback and I don't know about you but when I'm loaming I usually get cycle lands or utility lands and loam costs 2 mana. I'd rather go loam into double cycle land and a fetchland or wasteland, cycle those lands hopefully into threats, and waste the opponents land and hopefully drop a threat next turn or waste them again if my plan is to wastelock them out of the game. On top of that, looting is card disadvantage unless you dredge it with loam and cast it using its flashback. Oh and lists of loam are super tight in terms of how many flex slots you have, and I'm not going to advocate cutting crusher for faithless looting as one wins the game and the other does actually nothing to advance your gameplan.

With that list, you really want scavenging ooze and having only 1 crusher screams bad to me. I always run with the full set of crushers when I play this deck, as crusher helps to find loam, gets enormous, and doesn't get spell snare'd. Goyf, however, has been very disappointing for me hence the reason I run the 2/2 split of goyf and scavenging ooze since ooze is ridiculously powerful and isn't just a vanilla beater.

On terravore. I haven't run terravore for a while, but perhaps it's time to squeeze an additional copy in my list. Sometimes, terravore is a ridiculous card that can't be matched. Although the omnipresent question remains of what to cut for it.

[Aggro_zombies]

On terravore. I haven't run terravore for a while, but perhaps it's time to squeeze an additional copy in my list. Sometimes, terravore is a ridiculous card that can't be matched. Although the omnipresent question remains of what to cut for it.
Crusher. They fill basically the same role (large, late-game beater), but Terravore has more immediate pay-off and is better against certain kinds of removal.

[razvan]

I will write a report soon. I finished 85th or something. Great tournament, great deck. :)

[alrightgame]

Maybe if you read the posts your question would be answered. Faithless looting is only good when you dredge it with loam and usually bad in hand because you'd rather be casting things other than durdling around with looting. But even when you dredge it with loam, it's 3 mana to flashback and I don't know about you but when I'm loaming I usually get cycle lands or utility lands and loam costs 2 mana. I'd rather go loam into double cycle land and a fetchland or wasteland, cycle those lands hopefully into threats, and waste the opponents land and hopefully drop a threat next turn or waste them again if my plan is to wastelock them out of the game. On top of that, looting is card disadvantage unless you dredge it with loam and cast it using its flashback. Oh and lists of loam are super tight in terms of how many flex slots you have, and I'm not going to advocate cutting crusher for faithless looting as one wins the game and the other does actually nothing to advance your gameplan.

Thank you for the quick response. Forgive me for not reading other posts before this. I'm very busy in life and only frequent this thread to get an opinion on a card I might include in my deck.

[razvan]

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23344-85th-at-GP-Indianapolis-with-Aggro-Loam&p=625401#post625401

It's probably too big for this thread. I will make a small analysis of the cards at some point too.

[grim confident]

Grim Lavamancer really very good？
What is the role of it？
It and loam no conflict?:cry:

[Antonius]

Grim Lavamancer serves as both a clock and recurring removal. When you have loam going, I'd say that 1 fetch, 1 wasteland and 2 cycling lands are the minimum of what you want to keep in your yard/hand. Everything else, you can feed to the Lavamancer. Dredging with loam tends to give you endless shots.

For the most part, it works out; the only time the dissynergy can kick in is when you get lavamancer and cycling lands early then draw loam late after you've exiled all the cyclers, etc. However, usually when you find yourself in that situation, that means that Lavamancer has been killing dudes all day and carrying you through the game, so loam being not that great of a top deck isn't a big deal. Just resolve loam for no targets and start dredging to keep the Lavamancer online.

Also: against surgical extraction, use lavamancer to exile whatever card they targeted so they can't see your hand or dig through your deck.

[razvan]

As Antonius said, it is incredibly helpful against Surgical Extraction as well. It protects Loam and other key cards from this (I protected 1 Loam and 1 Ooze on separate occasions). Most people won't do this mistake, but you can still use your lavamancer if you have a cycle land.

So use the Cycle land, return Loam, then use Lavamancer if there is nothing you mind them hitting (or remove something you think they might hit, such as a creature, or a cycle-land if you have another).

[Dark Ritual]

Grim lavamancer is a house against maverick, assuming they don't get double mom out. It also lowers the curve of the deck. You can feed it with crusher, loam, or both or even seismic assault without loam to take out X/4's. Sure removing lands sucks but generating card advantage off of a 1 drop creature is quite powerful. It also works wonders against surgical as Antonius stated. The card is very solid.

[razvan]

Tony, congratulations on T4ing SCG:Sacramento. I said it before and will say it again... Hexproof sucks :(

[sdematt]

Nice job to the LA crew either way, win or lose. Koby, you lost against Tony?

-Matt

[soltakar]

Nice job to the LA crew either way, win or lose. Koby, you lost against Tony?

-Matt

Yes, unfortunately Tony and Koby had to play each other in the top 8. And Tony came out ahead.

Grats to both! Way to represent LA.

[Hanni]

Has Flame Jab been discussed? I ask because I just saw that Aggro Loam won a Modern GP. I know Modern is different than Legacy, but there are alot of targets for Flame Jab early, it can be dredged into with no drawback, and it's sort of like a Seismic Assault, albeit not quite as good, but still.

The Modern list was also running 4 Raven's Crime, which also doesn't seem like a bad idea, all things considered.

[Aggro_zombies]

Has Flame Jab been discussed? I ask because I just saw that Aggro Loam won a Modern GP. I know Modern is different than Legacy, but there are alot of targets for Flame Jab early, it can be dredged into with no drawback, and it's sort of like a Seismic Assault, albeit not quite as good, but still.

The Modern list was also running 4 Raven's Crime, which also doesn't seem like a bad idea, all things considered.
Raven's Crime is not that good because black is a tertiary color even in lists stretching to BB for Liliana (who is better, imo). In order to make it work well, you really want Urborg, and that card is very weak in this deck. Aside from the mana issues, Crime is pretty durdly; making the opponent choose and discard a card or two per turn for BB (with a likely 1G on top of it) is just not where you want to be most of the time.

As for Flame Jab, Lightning Bolt is just better. It's better in the early game because it kills more and does so at instant-speed, and Assault is better than both in the late-game (Jab just sits in your yard then). I would say Assault is still better in the mid-game because it's free to activate once you cast it, whereas Jab will still be RR and two lands for the same amount of damage.

Punishing Fires is much better than Flame Jab as well. It's easier on your mana and the damage output it roughly the same early on.

[sdematt]

Flame Jab is better is need to kill multiple small dudes, like Nobles, Thalia, etc. I was actually JUST going to ask if it'd been considered as a 1-of at all, as either Bolt #4 or #5. It also helps you gun down Jace in case you can't get Assault up.

-Matt

[Aggro_zombies]

Eh.

I'm trying to think of board states right now where one or more of the following wouldn't just be better:

Assault
Fires
Pyroclasm
Dreams
Lavamancer

There aren't a lot. I'm not sure that a card having more utility is necessarily a justification for running it over a more powerful but situational card, but that's just me.

Anyway, I think the time you'd want Flame Jab is early in the game, when the opponent has fast development because of multiple ramp spells, and you can't afford to fall behind on lands. Even then, Pyroclasm might be better just because it also kills Mystics and various other small-ish dudes for one card and the ability to retrace Flame Jab late is just not really relevant at all. Particularly in the mid- to late-game, it's probably going to cost you RRRG1 for three damage versus 2RRR for 3-4 damage from Fires or some amount of green and colorless for Assault.

I'm not really convinced. Maybe if you run Burning Wish? But I'm not sure what Wish target you'd take out for it.

[lavafrogg]

Would Zombie Infestation ever be considered in a list that did not run red?

Pros: makes a 2/2 zombie that can swing every turn
can chump block
runs off of dark confidant or loam
easier to cast
turns loam into a weapon without red

Cons:can't "combo kill"
doesn't provide reach over board stalls
doesn't insta-gib planeswalkers
can be spell snared
doesn't provide board control

It seems like a passable solution that pays homage to the old CAL lists that ran black.

[Aggro_zombies]

If you're not in red, you probably shouldn't be running Life from the Loam. The card just does not do enough then, and Zombie Infestation (snerk) does not make up for losing Assault.

[sdematt]

Could be a fun addition though, just to try :tongue:

-Matt

[Aggro_zombies]

Could be a fun addition though, just to try :tongue:

-Matt
Have at it, then. The card does not even seem worth trying to me.

[sdematt]

Oh, I'm not actually going to try it, just in theory, fun may be had.

I read the report from SCG for that guy that ran Loam and won, but he was playing a slightly awful build. My question is, how many of you are running Punishing Fires?

-Matt

[Aggro_zombies]

Oh, I'm not actually going to try it, just in theory, fun may be had.

I read the report from SCG for that guy that ran Loam and won, but he was playing a slightly awful build. My question is, how many of you are running Punishing Fires?

-Matt
Wait, what report and what build?

[Koby]

Wait, what report and what build?

Nathan Zamora's 1st Place deck from SCG: Dallas/FTW (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/23802_A_Tale_Of_Fortune_And_Romance_SCG_Legacy_Open_Dallas_1st.html)

[Aggro_zombies]

Ah, okay.

Well, his build has a couple of interesting things going for it:

- Terravore: great against aggro decks because of trample and almost always being bigger than Knight. I've been wondering about swapping some number of Crushers to some number of Terravores for a while.

- GSZ: I've been wondering about this card as well. GSZ for zero gets Dryad Arbor, as a sort of substitute Mox Diamond (although he doesn't run Arbor). It helps to find Oozes even when you run low numbers. I don't think you want to load up on targets a la Maverick, but one or two seemed worth exploring.

- Fires: Seems not bad as early game control. If you're cutting down on Seismics I think it helps to have Fires as a bridge between Bolt and Assault in terms of creature control.

I don't particularly like Edict or IoK, though I can respect both.

[razvan]

I am writing an article on Aggro Loam. A bit of analysis, and I explain some things, and oscillate between 3 decks, Nathan's winning one, Tony's deck from Sacramento and my pile from Indy.

I think that we underestimate how good Nathan's deck is. I like IoK's, and I am going to make a very weird prediction.

Cutting down a few cards in the SB, and adding 6-7 discard could be a viable way of going forward, actually.

The rest of the SB should be Leylines, Dreams and Grips/Grudges.

[sdematt]

Um, meh. I'm not so sure discard is the way to go, to be honest.

Assault is what makes this deck. A resolved Assault wins, hands down. You can race pretty much anything.

-Matt

[Hanni]

Um, meh. I'm not so sure discard is the way to go, to be honest.

Assault is what makes this deck. A resolved Assault wins, hands down. You can race pretty much anything.

Exactly, and discard makes sure Assault resolves. I'm all aboard the discard train for Jund Aggro Loam, despite popular opinion.

I'm also really digging the Modern list that won the GP. He ran multiple Raven's Crime's maindeck, which I liked. I also really like Flame Jab as the bridge between Bolt and Assault, since it can be a mini-Assault with Loam going when you can't find or can't resolve an Assault.

[Aggro_zombies]

Exactly, and discard makes sure Assault resolves. I'm all aboard the discard train for Jund Aggro Loam, despite popular opinion.

I'm also really digging the Modern list that won the GP. He ran multiple Raven's Crime's maindeck, which I liked. I also really like Flame Jab as the bridge between Bolt and Assault, since it can be a mini-Assault with Loam going when you can't find or can't resolve an Assault.
Punishing Fires is also a bridge between Bolt and Assault, and it is generally better in terms of damage output versus resource input. For one thing, it's Loam-independent, while Flame Jab and Assault aren't. It's also slightly easier on your mana because it requires less red per point of damage than Flame Jab.

If you want discard, Raven's Crime is not the way to go about it: targeted spells like IoK, Thoughtseize, and Duress are. Raven's Crime runs into a huge number of issues in Legacy:

You need to build your manabase to cater to it. Crime is black-intense in a deck that does not normally need more than one or two black sources per game. You could leave the mana as-is and just try to milk what black sources you have to cast Crime repeatedly, but that runs into a couple of problems: first, it takes too long to get problem cards out of the opponent's hand, assuming their hands aren't nearly empty when you start; second, it clashes with how you're prioritizing fetching in the early game because you want R and G early, not B, so you either have to go for duals and open yourself up to tempo hits off of Wasteland or more damage from PoP.
It's not useful in many matchups. Tempo decks tend to empty their hands pretty quickly, as do midrange-y and fast aggro decks. You could argue that Raven's Crime could be used to put them into topdeck mode (more on that in a bit), but you honestly have better cards to punish them for overextending (Assault, Dreams, Lavamancer, Perish). It gets better the more your opponent wants to keep cards in hand, which is not many of the best decks right now.
It's a card you want to see early, but you don't want to see in multiples. You want to see it early because then you're more likely to preempt the casting of cards that are bad for you, but extra copies of the card are actual blanks. This is especially true in a format where the most common graveyard hate spell out of the sideboard is Surgical Extraction; when it was Crypt or Relic, you were okay with seeing a second Crime because then you'd still have it if they hit your yard.
It requires a land discard per subsequent casting, which imposes a high cost in terms of both time and resource input. Getting three cards from the opponent requires BBB and two lands. If you are casting this in the midgame, two lands is probably what you can expect to have barring an active Loam. With Loam, the cost for three cards goes up to 1GBBB, which is Fugue territory, and no one is arguing that card is good. You can argue that you can split the cost over subsequent turns, but this isn't good either: the fact that your opponent chooses what to discard means he has more opportunities to cast cards that hurt you the longer you take to get rid of his hand.
A resolved and active JTMS, Top, or Library weaken discard significantly. All of these allow the opponent to hide stuff they need on top of their libraries, which is part of the reason why discard is generally weaker than counters. Top doesn't see as much play as it used to, but many of the more controlly blue decks (the ones against which Crime is at its best) have JTMS, and some G/x aggro decks will run Libraries. All of these cards increase the chances of the opponent topdecking something that hurts you.
Snapcaster Mage reduces the pain of losing cards to discard. Normally you want discard because, once your opponent's spells are in the graveyard, they're basically gone forever and you no longer have to worry about them. Snapcaster being in the format (and most blue decks) increases the number of "bad" topdecks for you provided you have already Crimed a spell you didn't want to see.

If you want discard, you want to make sure you have control over what you're hitting. Crime is okay if you can completely get rid of their hand, but that usually requires that they not have many cards in hand to begin with. The fact that you can't just straight-up Mind Twist them with it without having a hand full of land makes it much worse.

[razvan]

Yea I thought about cutting assault, and it was a mistake. Tony and myself both somehow reduced it to two, and seems ok.

Also, Terravore is the real deal. Best between him, Crusher or Goyf.

[Aggro_zombies]

Yea I thought about cutting assault, and it was a mistake. Tony and myself both somehow reduced it to two, and seems ok.

Also, Terravore is the real deal. Best between him, Crusher or Goyf.
Yeah, Assault at two feels right if you have support. Assault being active basically signals that the game is over, but in the midgame it's clunky because you don't have enough mana to Loam as much as you need to to murder everything with it.

Has anyone tried IoK recently? I've been thinking about it in that guy's list and I'm wondering how good it is main. What do you prioritize taking in each matchup? Assuming you only ever draw into 1-2 of them, how much impact does it have on average? The cards I would want to hit - planeswalkers or Batterskull, for example - can't be taken with IoK; OTOH, it hits a lot of stuff that your removal already hits. Is it just to increase "removal" density by having a card that may often hit a creature but doesn't have to?

[ivanpei]

I think the 1cc discard spells are actually pretty good. They fit into your curve well and allows you to protect your broken plays. I've also been playing the punishing fire build with 2 Thoughtseize, 2 iok and 2 Dismember. I'm not a fan of edict, the deck has too many 2 drops. It's either Dismember or ghastly demise for me.

[Aggro_zombies]

I think the 1cc discard spells are actually pretty good. They fit into your curve well and allows you to protect your broken plays. I've also been playing the punishing fire build with 2 Thoughtseize, 2 iok and 2 Dismember. I'm not a fan of edict, the deck has too many 2 drops. It's either Dismember or ghastly demise for me.
Dismember, Thoughtseize and Bob all seem ouch together. Is the life loss ever an issue?

Can you give me a run-down of important discard targets in the big matchups? I haven't played with targeted discard in years with this deck, and I'm wondering what cards you want to prioritize taking.

[ivanpei]

So far the lifeless hasn't bitten me yet but I guess eventually ill lose to it. Bob usually flips lands in this deck since half the deck is 0cc. And also there's no risk of flipping something like force of will etc. Targeted discard is useful in bagging an important early game card to allow you to roll into the middle game where you dominate. Sometimes you get blown. Out early by a broken starts by the opponent. You can take stuff like Delver, cranial plating, sfm, removal etc.

Honestly I just like it because of the curve issues. You have less land go t1 plays which I've always felt was the issue with this deck. If people are dropping lackey, vial, Delver etc turn one and we are just dropping land, we're falling behind alot. Dismember, 4 discard and 4 Mox gives you 10 cards that can give you some sort of t1 play. Ideally I'd like 12 or more, but I'm comfortable with 10.

Also this deck is horrible vs fast combo. Having 4 md cards that can disrupt and 4-6 more out of the board, gives you a fighting chance.

[Aggro_zombies]

So far the lifeless hasn't bitten me yet but I guess eventually ill lose to it. Bob usually flips lands in this deck since half the deck is 0cc. And also there's no risk of flipping something like force of will etc. Targeted discard is useful in bagging an important early game card to allow you to roll into the middle game where you dominate. Sometimes you get blown. Out early by a broken starts by the opponent. You can take stuff like Delver, cranial plating, sfm, removal etc.

Honestly I just like it because of the curve issues. You have less land go t1 plays which I've always felt was the issue with this deck. If people are dropping lackey, vial, Delver etc turn one and we are just dropping land, we're falling behind alot. Dismember, 4 discard and 4 Mox gives you 10 cards that can give you some sort of t1 play. Ideally I'd like 12 or more, but I'm comfortable with 10.

Also this deck is horrible vs fast combo. Having 4 md cards that can disrupt and 4-6 more out of the board, gives you a fighting chance.
Do you run Bolt and/or Lavamancer?

[razvan]

I used IoK in my lands build and it was amazing.

I am not sure you need it in aggro loam. I think it's better in the sideboard to bring against your bad match-ups.

With Stoneblade going all white and stuff, I think REB is no longer really necessary. IoK removes everything RUG delver has anyway too, so IoK should be superior to REB in those regards.

Also it gives you a ghost of a chance against the really bad match-ups too, and maybe even against Maverick, as if you needed any help.

Basically, it's a turn 1 play, removes a lot of stuff before it becomes relevant, and it's not a bad idea to run it maindeck, but that changes the whole deck around.

There is a threat of overthinking this I think. I will have to see, probably running it against this weekend with 6 SB slots dedicated to discard. I will see how the bad matchups will go.

[Antonius]

I dislike discard for the same reason I dislike extirpate: getting access to black mana, especially in the first few turns, sucks. Sure, from time to time you'll get a mox diamond but otherwise, fetching up a badlands is risky business, especially if your keep is only like two lands and the other is also non-basic or a wasteland. I'd rather limit play on-color answers.

Also, crushing into a 1cc discard spell is pretty unimpressive.

[ivanpei]

I don't play crusher or bolts or Lavamancer. I play terravore, pulse and assault at the 3. So far its been good, however I've realised I've been winning most of my games with punishing grove. It's really hard to answer both punishing fire and loam. If you run into extirpate, both punishing and loam are equally dangerous. Grim/crusher are strong but a little fragile for my tastes. Also I'm trying scavenging ooze in the MD as a 2 off. So far he's just been ok. Prob a flex slot.

[BlackStarDeceiver]

In addition most people can be tricked into extirpating Punishing Fire while you have an untapped grove as you can still return the targeted Fire with the Groves mana ability.

[sdematt]

No one really plays Extirpate, most are running Surgical extraction.

I mean, if your opponent knows they're going to face Loam.deck all day, THEN you pack Extirpate.

Crusher is fragile, but great. The main thing is thinning your deck. If he was an enchantment that did what he did (and gave some bonus to something), he's be the tits, but unforts, he's just a creature that can swing for lethal. Oh noes. Honestly, he gets super huge and gravehate (minus Leyline ofc) doesn't hurt him.


-Matt

[Koby]

Abundance? Nevermind, poor interaction with Dredge. I shouldn't post without my 2nd cup of coffee.

[Aggro_zombies]

No one really plays Extirpate, most are running Surgical extraction.

I mean, if your opponent knows they're going to face Loam.deck all day, THEN you pack Extirpate.

Crusher is fragile, but great. The main thing is thinning your deck. If he was an enchantment that did what he did (and gave some bonus to something), he's be the tits, but unforts, he's just a creature that can swing for lethal. Oh noes. Honestly, he gets super huge and gravehate (minus Leyline ofc) doesn't hurt him.


-Matt
I like Crusher's filtering ability, but I also like Terravore's trample and immediate size. Crusher gets bigger going long, but that's going long; in Snapcast_Your_Removal.format, something that's huge right now becomes more attractive. I'm not sure I'd want to completely cut Crushers, but I would want to try at least a 3-1 Crush-Vore split.

[Richard Cheese]

Might be worth replacing Goyf with Terravore over Crusher. I still don't think Crusher's filtering can be understated, but having trample and dodging Spell Snare seems pretty good in the current meta.

Only question is whether it's worth the extra turn of waiting, especially against burn/UR Delver matchups.

[sdematt]

I'm running 3/1 Crusher:Terravore and have been doing so forever and have loved it.

-Matt

[Kich867]

I'm running 3/1 Crusher:Terravore and have been doing so forever and have loved it.

-Matt

Are those the only creatures you run? I've been looking intently at this deck, I'm currently playing UR delver and was hoping to adopt a RUG version of it, as the black splash seems to add A: card advantage, B: protection via discard. I feel like the biggest thing you'd be losing is Maelstrom Pulse but there doesn't seem to be a heavily reliance on that card as it stands anyways.

My biggest problem I'm running into is not having enough card slots to work FOW in there.. Cutting down on creatures and leaning more towards the Seismic Assault / Punishing Fires route + blue protection, with only a handful of creatures seems like it would work the best for what I'm trying to do.

[razvan]

FoW is losing its luster, even in blue control decks. This deck already overplays its hand, I think putting a FoW will definitely take it in uncomfortable directions. Your control is through removal and not caring about minor threats since your creatures and seismic assault can just go over the top.

I don't like discard main, but i also don't like losing to certain decks automatically. If you use discard, I think putting it in the SB will accomplish this.

[sdematt]

I'm running:

2 Grim Lavamancer
2 Scavenging Ooze
3 Tarmogoyf
3 Crusher
1 Terravore
4 Dark Confidant

So far, it's been very nice along with the 2 Sylvan Library :)

-Matt

[Jay_Gatz]

Possibly playing aggro loam tomorrow at the 5k, matt can I get your list?

[razvan]

So I ran my Indy list today, with -1 badlands, +1 bayou and this sb:

4 leyline
4 inquisition of kozilek
3 ancient grudge
2 devastating dreams
2 thoughtseize

R1 - 0-2 L maverick
R2 - 2-0 W merfolk
R3 - 2-0 W rug delver
R4 - 2-0 W painter servant
R5 - ID burn
T8 - 2-0 UR delver
T4 - split, but would have had to play TES :|

25 people.

- 4 Ooze is simply over-the-top amazing, this deck should play 4. It's so good against everything.
- Terravores were still good, haven't played against esper stoneblade, but i still like them better than crushers.
- Liliana is so good, I really want to get 3. I am NEVER sorry to see her.
- The mana still needs adjustments. Tony's list is probably lots better. This deck lives and dies by the mana.
- SB Grudges were amazing. This and Volrath's stronghold won G2 vs. Painter
- Inquisitions were amazing. I side them in against almost everything. Took Price of Progress against Chris with UR in top-8.
- Thoughtseizes are probably still good, didn't see a single one.
- Need to test more against combo.

[Aggro_zombies]

I've begun testing the following in preparation for me maybe attending SCG Phoenix:

2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Dark Confidant
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Scavenging Ooze
3 Countryside Crusher
1 Terravore

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Punishing Fire
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Seismic Assault

4 Life from the Loam

4 Mox Diamond
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Taiga
1 Badlands
1 Bayou
1 Mountain
1 Forest
3 Grove of the Burnwillows

3 Forgotten Cave
2 Tranquil Thicket
3 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold

The mana is pretty rocky, mostly owing to Grove and eleventy billion nonbasics opening me up to tempo Wasteland plays. I liked sdematt's creature base, so I stole it. As for the other cards, 4 Punishing Fire is too much. I like the card more in theory than I have so far in practice, but we'll see - I want a couple, but not a lot, and I'm not sure how the numbers will work out if I shave into the package for more slots.

I kind of want Sylvan Library. Maybe -1 Fire, -1 Grove, +1 Fetch, +1 Library.

I'm interested in trying out discard/Liliana versions, but not with Fires in them. If the mana feels too rough in a version like this, I can only imagine how much worse it gets in a version that wants BB too.

EDIT: The sideboard I've been working with is:

2 Zuran Orb
2 Krosan Grip
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Noxious Revival
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Perish
3 Thoughtseize

Haven't used all of them yet, but I might change the Grip/Grudge split because I haven't seen all that much Counterbalance and that's the main reason I'd want Grip over Grudge.

[sdematt]

3 Forgotten Cave
3 Tranquil Thicket
3 Wasteland
2 Mountain
1 Forest
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Volrath's Stronghold
3 Taiga
2 Badlands
1 Bayou
1 Barbarian Ring
26

3 Tarmogoyf
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Grim Lavamancer
3 Countryside Crusher
1 Terravore
4 Dark Confidant
15

4 Mox Diamond
4 Life form the Loam
3 Seismic Assault
2 Sylvan Library
2 Maelstorm Pulse
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Ghastly Demise (or Terminate, but if you're not running into infinite black creatures, Ghastly has been great)
20


Just remember a few things for tomorrow, if you play my list:

1) Virtue's Ruin is a bit better, at the moment than Perish, unless you're running into tons of Elves. Thalia's, MoM's, and the like are hard for you to gain value with, and really slow you down. You could Perish if you can't get Ruins, but you're also running Green creatures, so the wrath effect here is much more one-sided.

2) Sylvan Library lets you Dredge as much as you want for free, but let me explain. If you have 2 Life from the Loams and a Sylvan Library, you can Dredge twice for free off the library, then look at the top card and decide if you want it (if you do, you have to pay 4 life). If you have 1 Loam, you get to Dredge once and look twice (and pay 4 or 8 to take 1 or two cards). If you have 3, you can Dredge 3 times without paying ANY life, but you don't get to look at any cards. Just make sure you announce you're using Sylvan Library to Dredge, and which of the three cards you're either looking at or Dredging. I usually suggest (if you have one Loam): Look, Dredge, Look.

3) UWB Stoneblade can't beat a resolved Seismic Assault unless they pull Vindicate. So, bait them if you can before you drop it. If you know they have Clique, wait until your main phase to Dredge your Loam (using a cycler if possible), then immediately cast it so they never get priority to Clique you. It's slower, but you'll never lose your Loam.

--BOARD--

2 Ancient Grudge
2 Virtue's Ruin
1 Devastating Dreams
2 Krosan Grip
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Noxious Revival
3 REB/Pyroblast

Good luck tomorrow! :)

Post #1991. Oh noes teh palindromes! I hope it isn't a recognized restriction site :P

-Matt

[Jay_Gatz]

Thank you sir, given the opportunity I shall give you a shout out.

Edit: Played ANT, got 38th and the guy I split with got 17th. Daggers.

[sdematt]

How was Baltimore?

-Matt

[Aggro_zombies]

So I've been doing some thinking lately, looking at other people's lists and tinkering with the deck a bit, and I want to try this going forward:

2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Dark Confidant
3 Scavenging Ooze
2 Tarmogoyf
3 Countryside Crusher
1 Terravore

4 Life from the Loam
2 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Ghastly Demise

2 Seismic Assault
2 Sylvan Library
2 Liliana of the Veil

4 Mox Diamond
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
3 Taiga
1 Badlands
2 Bayou
2 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Graven Cairns

3 Wasteland
3 Tranquil Thicket
3 Forgotten Cave
1 Volrath's Stronghold

Sideboard:
2 Noxious Revival
2 Perish
1 Krosan Grip
2 Ancient Grudge
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Zuran Orb
3 Thoughtseize

The mana is a little awkward because I only own one Badlands. Lilianna might become something else, I dunno. I've only played a couple games with her so far and she's been so-so. I really want more than "three mana, Edict and fog a guy" out of a card that warps my manabase, and the discard is less relevant alone than I would like it to be. The rest of the deck feels fine, if a little lacking in the early game: Demise is so-so for the first couple of turns and I only have two Lavamancer.

I might shave into the creatures and Lilis for more removal. Alternately, I might move some stuff around to make room for more discard in the main and take the deck in a more BGr direction.

[razvan]

I tried demise, and it was alright, but sometimes I wish it was something else. The only real non-aggro loam creatures that you will face that might be able to kill it (and bolt doesn't) is Knight of the Reliquary, and often Tarmogoyf. Those are obviously huge, but I think that the ability to just Lightning Bolt something makes up for it. It's nice to have removal even when your GY is gone.

As for Liliana, as before, I am a huge fan, and want to slide the third one in somehow. I think the reason why I like her more is that I have more removal to have her be more than just the fog. Often I bring her on board with them only having one creature, and then can just grind out the discard. She was randomly an out to Show and Tell-Emrakul (before getting punted by ANOTHER SnT-Emrakul).

[Aggro_zombies]

I'm dissatisfied with my removal options right now. As I see it, Dreams is not a maindeckable card, and EE has been only so-so for ages. That leaves me with the following one-for-ones:

Grim Lavamancer
Lightning Bolt
Punishing Fire
Terminate
Ghastly Demise
Maelstrom Pulse

There's also various Edicts, theoretically, but I really don't like them outside of a few combo-ish matchups. I'm counting Assault more as a finisher than as a removal spell.

All of the removal spells listed have problems. Lavamancer is okay but provides serious diminishing returns in multiples. Bolt is okay but not universal. Fire is clunky but is attractive because it's a Loam-independent continuous damage source. Terminate is Spell Snare-able and is the kind of card you really only want to use on creatures that cost more than two mana; so many creatures these days either cost less or provide value when you cast them that paying two to kill your opponent's two-drop with a used CiP ability is just not good. Demise is a very bad StP approximation, and not just because of the non-black clause: it doesn't stack up favorably against Ooze and is awkward in the early game. Pulse costs too much mana but can destroy planeswalkers and equipment, so it stays.

Figuring out the right removal package is tricky and I feel like I want more removal than I have slots. I'm ambivalent on average about Punishing Fires: sometimes I love it and sometimes I hate how it warps the manabase and eats up tons of mana to use.

[razvan]

I like my removal:

4 Lightning Bolt
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Liliana of the Veil

2 Seismic Assault (sorta, agree with what you said).

Pulse is a necessary evil. Honestly, I side it out a LOT. However, sometimes, game 1, you don't want to lose to a random card or planeswalker you never could have imagined, and it really deals with EVERYTHING.

[Koby]

Why not just splash white for StP in that case? It wouldn't be hard to shift some of the duals to (savannah, plateau, bayou) while cutting some of the more questionable sources. I don't think that even the Bayou is needed, and you can realistically play Sav/Plat in place of the 3rd Taiga and Volrath's. StP really is the best there is for 1cc removal.

[Aggro_zombies]

Ugh, four color builds. The last time I attempted that, RUG Tempo/Canadian had Stifles and Wastelands, and that deck put the fear of God into me over stretching my manabase. I could probably get it to work, but Mox Diamonds and Life from the Loam are no compensation for greedy mana: the latter might diminish Wasteland's impact, but at the cost of time and mana, while the former are vulnerable to all sorts of removal and tempo counters, particularly if your opponent knows you need them to tie your mana together.

That said, access to StP is pretty attractive, and Knight of the Reliquary is a pretty cool guy. The deck's raw power goes up, but I'm still paranoid about four-color manabases.

[Koby]

I think that in general the metagame is shifting towards a :w: splash being better - RUG Delver is on the decline and is starting to cut Stifle which makes a greedy manabase somewhat safer. The added benefits of :w: shine especially against the rise of Maverick.

[Hanni]

If you're not happy with black removal, you could go into white for Knight and Plow and cut black... I still don't get the obsession with Confidant in a format with and over-abundance of spot removal in a deck with no means to protect him and no equipment to make him useful in the red zone.

Knight + Crusher sounds amazing, and improves consistency in assembling the Punisher combo.

[Aggro_zombies]

Jund builds have better sideboard options than Naya builds, though; it's not just Dark Confidant. Perish - and to a lesser extent, Virtue's Ruin - are pretty good against the format right now, and discard is better than just about anything white sideboard cards bring to the table. StP and Knight are not so much better that it's worth sacrificing percentage points in games two and three.

[sdematt]

Or, we could run Naya with a black dual or two + Mox for Black sideboard options...

-Matt

[Aggro_zombies]

Or, we could run Naya with a black dual or two + Mox for Black sideboard options...

-Matt
I suppose.

2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Qasali Pridemage
3 Countryside Crusher
3 Knight of the Reliquary

4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Life from the Loam

2 Sylvan Library
2 Seismic Assault
2 Engineered Explosives

4 Mox Diamond
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Windswept Heath
2 Arid Mesa
2 Taiga
1 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Badlands
1 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Mountain

3 Forgotten Cave
3 Tranquil Thicket
3 Wasteland

Alternately, cut Punishing Fire and add 1 Karakas, 1 Other Land in the Grove slots and GSZ and maybe something else in the non-land slots. I like the idea of Buried Ruin in the Other Land spot.

Sideboard gives Perish, Thoughtseize, IoK, Vindicate if you want it.

EDIT: Actually, screw Fires.

[Hanni]

Perish hits your own guys too, though. What matchups do you really need Perish for? Against RUG, Knight is going to be just as good for you against them as Perish, unless they nuts you with quad Mongoose or something.

Against Maverick, Knight outsizes everything but their own Knights, except this deck is built to grow its Knights better than they can grow theirs.

What matchups do you want discard for? You still roll over and die to combo, although hatebears like Teeg and Thalia aren't a bad option there.

[Aggro_zombies]

Perish hits your own guys too, though. What matchups do you really need Perish for? Against RUG, Knight is going to be just as good for you against them as Perish, unless they nuts you with quad Mongoose or something.

Against Maverick, Knight outsizes everything but their own Knights, except this deck is built to grow its Knights better than they can grow theirs.

What matchups do you want discard for? You still roll over and die to combo, although hatebears like Teeg and Thalia aren't a bad option there.
The problem with Maverick is that they can clutter the board up and make it hard to get through, particularly if they have equipment going. It's nice to be able to just Wrath and roll in for massive damage. Dreams may be an acceptable substitute for either Perish or Virtue's Ruin, though - I haven't done a straight-up comparison between the two.

As for discard - it's better against the non-storm combo decks than nothing. Particularly against SnT decks, where hatebears basically do nothing, or Reanimator, where it's Ooze or bust, discard lets you take out key pieces of their combo to buy time. You are going to lose to storm combo either way, but discard helps against some of the other combo-ish decks in Legacy.

[Hanni]

Wow. I was in the middle of posting while you guys responded, but I really like the idea of GSZ in here. Turning this deck into a mashup of Maverick and Aggro Loam isn't a bad idea, considering how strong of a deck Maverick is.

GSZ gives you Dryad Arbor. Between Mox Diamond and GSZ/Arbor, you get consistent mana ramp. GSZ gives you Teeg vs combo, Qasali vs problem artifacts/enchantments, and grabs Ooze, Goyf, or Knight. Friggin awesome.

Plus you still get to run Loam, Assault, and Crusher. Sounds like a winning idea if you ask me.

[Koby]

With both Crusher and Knight, I'd be tempted to just play DD main and go with the tried-and-true Fatty-geddon plan. It sweeps the leg under from all the small utility dorks which leaves only opposing Knights and/or Goyfs to worry about. At that point, StP would eliminate them too regardless of size.

[Aggro_zombies]

Hatebears are better against combo when you have a fast clock. They don't beat down well and the amount of time they buy varies a lot based on the opponent's sideboarding and what deck they're playing - Teeg is mostly a blank versus Painter, SnT (either Sneak Attack or Hive Mind versions), Reanimator, Elves, and so on. Thalia is a little better but having to pay 2G to cast Loam makes me not want to run her. Similarly, I don't like Ethersworn Canonist in a Loam deck, and I don't think I have enough sideboard slots to turn into a Zoo-style beatdown deck - particularly not with how much mana my deck runs.

I agree that GSZ for Arbor is worth looking into, and would probably add it to a Naya list.

GSZ and Library are probably adequate substitutes for Bob. Bob tends to survive longer than people give him credit for, and he gets work done when he does. I'd also rather have people plow Bob than Terravore, Ooze, or Crusher.

If Dreams is good enough against Maverick, it may be worth it to cut the black duals entirely and go straight Naya. You lose points versus fringe combo, but what can you do?

Also, that Naya deck really makes me want to try Ajani Vengeant, but that might be too greedy.

EDIT:
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Qasali Pridemage
3 Countryside Crusher
3 Knight of the Reliquary

4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Life from the Loam

2 Sylvan Library
2 Seismic Assault
2 Engineered Explosives

4 Mox Diamond
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Windswept Heath
2 Arid Mesa
2 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Dryad Arbor

3 Forgotten Cave
3 Tranquil Thicket
3 Wasteland

SB:
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Krosan Grip
2 Noxious Revival
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Devastating Dreams
1 Karakas
1 Buried Ruin
2 Choke

I really want another GSZ in there.

[razvan]

Oh god, how I tried Ajani in a naya built of lands or this deck. He's is really strong against a lot of strategies, but 4 mana!

Also, if you have Knight, I would add one Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale. It's simply too good against so many strategies to not have one maindeck, or at least SB.

I am not sure how ballistic Antonius will get when he sees these latest brews though :P

[Aggro_zombies]

I don't own a Tabernacle and can't borrow one, so that's out.

Ajani is cute but probably worse than Elspeth in virtually every way. At least Elspeth does something to win when you're in the midgame.

The Russians have been on Naya Loam for years - I remember one of them almost t8'd GP Paris years ago with a Naya Loam build, and then someone else almost t8'd a more recent European GP with virtually the same list. IIRC they run Plows, Bolts, and a bunch of large three-mana dorks. The deck looks a lot like Big Zoo.

[Koby]

I am not sure how ballistic Antonius will get when he sees these latest brews though :P

He's busy brewing up Vengevine lists right now :evilgrin:
Believe me, I've tried to get him to try KotR, but he doesn't respect the Knight.

[Antonius]

Believe me, I've tried to get him to try KotR, but he doesn't respect the Knight.

My beef with knight has always been that you can only play it in Naya colors and that it's a nonbo with Lavamancer. Bob and Lavamancer are major CA generators in the deck.

However, I've never tried naya with punishing grove. Recurring fires could re-create some of that CA. With merfolk out of the metagame, punishing fires might not be so big a liability. Naya would be nice, if only for the serious improvement to the reanimator match.

[Hanni]

I'm not trying to offend the guys that sware by Jund, but I really think Naya is the way to go in the current metagame right now. GSZ and Knight of the Reliquary are a huge improvement to your aggro plan.

GSZ/Arbor, along with Mox Diamond, increase the consistency of accelerated starts.

Knight of the Reliquary, along with Countryside Crusher, increase the consistency of dropping fatties (along with GSZ too, I suppose).

The fact that Knight can toolbox a few useful lands between maindeck and sideboard is awesome. Wasteland in particular is nasty against alot of decks, but now you get access to Karakas, Bojuka Bog, Maze of Ith, so on and so forth.

Plus, you get access to Swords to Plowshares in addition to Lightning Bolt.

Access to Gaddock Teeg and other hatebears seems like a solid plan vs combo, too. It's alot better than a mere 3 discard spells in the sideboard, at any rate.

[Antonius]

Access to Gaddock Teeg and other hatebears seems like a solid plan vs combo, too. It's alot better than a mere 3 discard spells in the sideboard, at any rate.

There is no solid plan against combo. The sooner you take your medicine and accept that the sooner you'll be happier for it and off to winning all your other matchups.

And yeah, running Swords to Plowshares would be sweet. Losing to sphinx of the steel wind is soooo fucking obnoxious.

all other gains seem negligible.

[Aggro_zombies]

A Knight toolbox is cute, but not very good. You're already running ~6 cycling lands and 3-4 Wastelands, which leaves 16-ish lands left in most builds. Factor in 8 or so fetches, and now you're down to 8 lands that do stuff, including making mana. You can't afford to get cute with a land toolbox unless you want to shave into spell slots, and this deck is already uncomfortably short on spells.

As for combo, yeah, what Antonius said. It's also worth mentioning that combo is not a monolithic, storm-based entity. Teeg is a blank versus Painter, Reanimator, and Elves, mostly bad versus SnT and High Tide decks, and only so-so against Tendrils storm and Dredge. The various other hatebears all have wildly varying usefulness depending on the matchups.

[Hanni]

The hatebear plan isn't any worse than sideboarding 3 discard spells, though.

[Aggro_zombies]

The hatebear plan isn't any worse than sideboarding 3 discard spells, though.
To be honest, I would either like more discard spells, or none at all. Discard is useful in a lot of matchups, as well, not just combo.

EDIT: There's a small local tournament tomorrow within 30 minutes walk of my apartment. I might go. I'd either play the last listed Naya build above, or this:

2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Dark Confidant
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Tarmogoyf
3 Countryside Crusher
1 Terravore

4 Life from the Loam
1 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Ghastly Demise
2 Maelstrom Pulse

2 Seismic Assault
2 Sylvan Library

4 Mox Diamond
3 Wasteland
3 Tranquil Thicket
3 Forgotten Cave
1 Volrath's Stronghold
3 Taiga
1 Badlands
1 Bayou
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Mountain
1 Forest

I'll have to sleep on it to decide which one I want to play. I've played both Naya and Jund Loam before and see merits in both, but it's been a long time since I've piloted either in paper.

[lavafrogg]

You could always play an offshoot of the lists that I play.....forgoing red completely in favor of white.... Just saying... Discard + GSZ for teeg or pridemage or ooze can shut down a large variety of decks in of itself.

[Antonius]

I don't think you can play GSZ, a flexible 8-piece removal suite and Seismic Assault in the same deck. So, whether you go Naya or Junk, the choice is there to be made.

and I think that you'd be better off going junk if you really want to play GSZ. If you've already got four knights, adding four crushers is just going to lead to you getting punished by Daze. With a solid 3cmc beater already in the deck, I'd rather play bobs.

oh, and I should amend that by 'combo,' i'm mainly referring to spell-based combo, like Sneak Show, Storm, Tide, etc. Permanent-based combo decks are extremely beatable because we run so much removal. That said, cutting red will make the elves and painter matchup much worse.

[Aggro_zombies]

I ended up deciding to play the Jund version at what was basically the last minute, although I had all the cards for both versions with me. I went 3-1 and would have played in the top 4 had it happened. I think there were 20 players or so. Here's what I played:

4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Scavenging Ooze
3 Countryside Crusher
1 Terravore

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Punishing Fire
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Seismic Assault
4 Life from the Loam
1 Sylvan Library

4 Mox Diamond
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Taiga
1 Badlands
1 Bayou
1 Mountain
1 Forest
3 Grove of the Burnwillows

3 Forgotten Cave
3 Tranquil Thicket
3 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold

SB:
1 Devastating Dreams
2 Perish
2 REB
2 Pyroblast
2 Noxious Revival
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Krosan Grip
3 Surgical Extraction

My matchups:

Round 1 - Red Maverick against Matt
Game 1: He opens with land, GSZ for Arbor. I open with Grove, Mox Diamond, Punishing Fire the Arbor. His creatures get worked by Fire while I kill him with Tarmogoyf and Crusher.
Game 2: I side out Pulses and a P. Fire for 2 Perish and a Dreams. The game starts well, with a Crusher, Bob, and piles of removal. But, at some point, things begin to unravel: my Crusher gets hit with a (eventually game-winning) StP, and then he draws Elspeth, and then he draws Jitte, while Bob and my draw step show me an awkward combination of lands and Mox Diamonds. I kill his tokens for several turns while attacking Elspeth with Bob, but I run out of removal while still in mid-flood and Jitte becomes active. I scoop once it's clear that Terravore is my only out.
Game 3: I don't remember exactly what transpired here, but I do remember it involving active Fire/Grove and Scavenging Ooze. He eventually Surgicals my Fire when I put the return trigger on the stack, but it's irrelevant as my Ooze is 5/5 and I have an active Bob to go with it.
2-1
1-0

Round 2 - Zoo against Jake
Game 1: He opens with land, GSZ for Dryad Arbor, while I open with land, Mox, Fire the Arbor. That play turns out to have been game-breaking as he gets stuck on mana while I work him with a Goyf and Fire all of his creatures.
Game 2: I don't remember how I sideboarded. I have Wastelands for days, however, and he eventually scoops after I lock him out of red (his hand was basically all burn).
4-1
2-0

Round 3 - Sneak Attack against A Different Matt
Game 1: I do some stuff and then die to Emrakul.
Game 2: -2 Pulse, -3 Fires, +2 REB, +2 Pyroblast, +1 Krosan Grip. I do some stuff and then die to Emrakul.
4-3
2-1

Round 4 - Show And Tell against Corey
Game 1: I play an early Bob and draw into a lot of burn. He gets a turn three Show And Tell into Progenitus, while I have nothing; he hits me with it and casts Magus of the Moon, while I am about 5 points of burn shy of killing him.
Game 2: I'm fairly certain he doesn't have Sneak Attack (he doesn't) and is mostly focused on the SnT plan. I side -2 Pulse, -3 Fire, +2 REB, +2 Pyroblast, +1 Surgical. He mulligans and then opens on a Leyline of Sanctity. I play a land and pass. He plays a land and Ponders, but I REB it under the assumption that it will buy me time to aggro him out. I get a Bob, who draws me into a Crusher, while he spins his wheels a bit. Infinite cycling lands and a Wasteland later, Crusher is smashing him for tons and he still doesn't have his combo.
Game 3: This game was interesting. The openings are similar, minus a Leyline from him, but this time he has Misdirection to protect the Ponder from my Pyroblast. However, his Ponder evidently doesn't show him enough, and I manage to accumulate a board of Bob, Ooze, and an 8/8 Terravore to his lands. I attack for what is basically lethal, only to walk into a Through the Breach (buh?), making an Emrakul that blocks my Terravore. I cast a post-combat Crusher, then Ooze away the Emrakul when it dies EOT. He scoops.
6-4
3-1

So, I got lucky in my last round (and my opponent was playing a suboptimal version of SnT), but overall the deck felt fine. I feel like I would have been able to put up more of a fight in the two combo matchups if I'd had discard to bring in instead of largely dead Blasts, but I don't know what I would re-arrange in the board to fit in 6-8 discard spells, and I don't know that the Sneak Attack matchup would have gotten that much better. Punishing Fire was great in the two aggro matchups, and I love how much removal I had there. I didn't ever see my sideboard cards against them, though, so I still have no idea if Dreams is enough of a sweeper on its own to support a Naya build.

EDIT: Forgot the 1 Sylvan Library.

[sdematt]

I think in the matchups you played the Blasts were dead, but I don't think that could be said about them in general.

-Matt

[lavafrogg]

So realistically you should have lost to both combo decks you played? Oh and the deck is now a DTB and now some obscure rouge deck.... I guess ignore combo and shore up your other match-ups is a really good plan.

[Aggro_zombies]

So realistically you should have lost to both combo decks you played? Oh and the deck is now a DTB and now some obscure rouge deck.... I guess ignore combo and shore up your other match-ups is a really good plan.
It is, considering I played both of the tournament's combo decks back-to-back. Unless you count Dredge, in which case there were three combo decks out of twenty people.

So yeah, dropping some of the best cards in the deck to fill up on discard seems like a great plan on average. I'd love to have a bunch of random discard spells versus Maverick or RUG.

Speaking seriously, though, Aggro Loam is a metagame deck. There is no deck that has perfect matchups versus everything; even the most broken decks in the history of the game have been soft to something. Sacrificing points against the top three decks (RUG, Maverick, Stoneblade) to make matchups that you won't hit often marginally less unwinnable (because seriously, you have 24-26 lands and 4 Mox Diamond, you are so scary to a combo deck) seems not very good to me. I don't think the Junk formula is that good right now - even Nic Fit, which is like Junk but does some sweet stuff, is squishy to Maverick.

So yeah, I got unlucky but lucked out anyway. I think it's fine.

[lavafrogg]

That is a bad break, 2 of the three combo decks, sounds like my luck:p. At a certain point don't you have to account for the dredge/burn/storm/show and tell decks in the format? They are getting more and more popular...

Loam has great "fair" deck match ups but in what you lose from punishing fires you gain in deed. Wiping the board at will is always beneficial, especially when the loam engine can kick on and outdraw the shit out of maverick. The part that I have been unable to respond to for the junk vs jund lists is seismic assault. Assault online is just gg in so many cases.

Have lists ever just pushed to maximize the effectiveness of Assault?

edit: can liliana take the place of assault in any way, it seems like the best replacement at the moment?

[razvan]

I think that REBs are losing a lot of value nowadays. I still think that 4 Inquisitions of Kozilek are better in the SB.

Looking at the top 3 decks:

Maverick: Obviously nothing blue to hit. IoKs are not "fantastic" but at least they can remove bad stuff (like Knights and Mothers and Oozes and Equipment).

Stoneblade: They are moving away from blue. Grudges and IoK are a good way to combat this new Esper deck.

RUG Delver decks: Honestly, since they are skimping on Chain Lightnings, they are becoming less of a problem. It's better to be proactive against them than hope to have mana to REB their stuff. Although Snapcasters sort of become better with no REB.

Now, I know we all (especially me) try to make a better game against combo, and like it was said, it's impossible. You will never have positive number.

However, it's a happy coincidence that REBs might not be the best, and replacing them with discard might be ok. 6 discard (4 IoK, 2 TS) is not enough to make up ground against combo, but it does help.

Anyway, I tried removing Assault. Bad idea. Liliana doesn't take the place of it, I use her alongside it. I think that 7 3cc cards are about as many as we can afford, and I have 2 Assault, 2 Liliana, 3 Terravore/Crusher.

Also, IoK's are randomly good against Surgical Extraction too, although usually I remove other stuff anyway. People overloading on GY hate... hey, here's creatures to bury them!

[Aggro_zombies]

That is a bad break, 2 of the three combo decks, sounds like my luck:p. At a certain point don't you have to account for the dredge/burn/storm/show and tell decks in the format? They are getting more and more popular...
Dredge and Burn are different beasts from Storm and Show and Tell.

The latter effectively kill you in one turn, require immediate answers and the ability to apply a lot of pressure quickly, and tend to be metagame drivers - that is, a rise in their presence tends to result in a delayed rise in the presence of blue decks.

The former, however, are easier to deal with because they kill you over multiple turns and present more openings for interaction. They also tend to have more permanents than spell-based combo, which plays into your strengths. These are the kind of combo decks where you can actually put up a fight.

As I wrote in the opening primer, spell-based combo matchups are basically unwinnable because your deck just doesn't do anything the combo deck cares about. You're close to half mana (if you aren't actually 26 land, 4 Mox Diamond), which greatly dilutes both your interactive cards and your clock. You are built around Life from the Loam, a late-game card in a matchup where you are not favored going late at all (the combo deck draws into a god hand and kills you anyway). You run big, clunky threats and clunky board control cards in a matchup where you either want cheap, fast threats or powerful threats backed up by a suite of answers. All of these lead to what is basically a systemic weakness to spell-based combo.

You can apply discard as a band-aid, but that only fixes some of the problems. You still have too much do-nothing mana, you are still trying to get there with Trained Armadons that may get bigger if you don't have spells on top of your library, you are still not favored going long. If spell-based combo becomes prevalent in the meta, you should switch to something blue to beat it; normal metagame cycling dictates that a rise in the abundance of fair decks on which Aggro Loam preys should also create favorable conditions for Storm and Sneak Attack/SnT decks...which suppress the fair decks that prey on blue decks, thereby creating an opening for those blue decks to return and rout combo, which creates an opening for the fair anti-blue decks, and so on. I think it's fine that Aggro Loam is not playable at all points in this cycle. Few decks are.


Have lists ever just pushed to maximize the effectiveness of Assault?
Yes and no. Assault tends to be mana-intensive because you will usually want to Loam for land, land, cycling land, then Shock twice, cycle to dredge Loam, then cast Loam and Shock three more times. Limiting yourself to a single Loam's worth of lands per turn is kind of hit-or-miss on the power scale.

Assault is a finisher that doesn't require the combat step. It's basically a Fireball: it grows in power over the course of the game as your ability to feed resources into it grows. There is probably a deck like 43lands out there that uses Assault and maybe Punishing Fire, but I do not know that it would be very good; relying solely on Assault opens you up to a bunch of other problems, mostly because it's difficult to kill someone with Assault in one turn.

That said, Assault is still a great finisher and a core piece of any Aggro Loam list.


edit: can liliana take the place of assault in any way, it seems like the best replacement at the moment?
No. Lilianna is not even close to being the same thing Assault is. Lilianna picks off a random creature once every other turn while marginally reducing your opponent's card quality, while Assault just straight-up kills them. If Lilianna's ultimate actually did something to win the game (which it doesn't), she'd be more worthwhile, but as it is she's a utility card.

[lavafrogg]

Im coming to that same conclusion. She is good but just not game crushingly good like assault. 8 discard spells plus 3 liliana are a beating against anything that wants a hand, combo and control, but you lose alot in aggro matchups.

[Aggro_zombies]

So if SCG Phoenix was tomorrow (and I had a ride there and a place to stay while in town), I would probably play the same maindeck, but I would overhaul the sideboard.

razvan's arguments regarding Blasts are convincing to me. Against blue non-combo, I feel like discard gives me a better shot of stopping my opponents from getting value out of cards like Snapcaster, Stoneforge, Jace, and so on. As much as I hate to admit it, Hanni may be right about Raven's Crime against slower blue decks - I will need to test it more, but it seems fine if you use other spells to hit their relevant cards early and then slowly run them out of a hand. As long as TMS doesn't stick, they're probably not going to be pressuring you that much.

So, I'm thinking:

3 Surgical Extraction
2 Perish
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Krosan Grip
3 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Noxious Revival

I still have no idea how to optimally use Revival. I think I am less attached to it for that reason, so I may just cut it for another Grip or something, I don't know. I'm also not sure about the Thoughtseize/IoK split, but I do know I only own one IoK and four Thoughtseize, so any split that favors me buying less makes me happy.

Also, I really, really hate Maelstrom Pulse. There has got to be a better card that can hit planeswalkers and equipment in game one without being overly narrow. Sadly, that card may just be Vindicate. Oh well.

EDIT: Actually, it just needs to be equipment. I have enough burn to handle most planeswalkers.

[lavafrogg]

Zombies, if you can get to Phoenix, I have a couch/floor for anyone to stay on.

I also fully disagree with your separation of "combo" decks. I feel the decks can be lumped into a non-interactive deck category instead of a "combo" category. Unless you have specific interactive ways to deal with the non interactive decks then you pretty much auto lose or hope for terrible draws/misplays.

Burn is a combo deck that combos over the first few turns of the game and dredge can just as easily kill you in one turn with a nasty dread return. I am also upping the list to include reanimator seeing how a protected anything spells gg.

If I was looking for a gauntlet at this point, due to the broad spectrum of legacy, I would say you need to have options against blade control, gsz aggro, tempo, and non-interactive. The last category is so large that you have to chose broad answers maindeck and specific answers post board i.e. crypt vs blast.

Loam decks in general, imho, have good vs tempo and vs control match ups and vs midrange aggro match ups but non interactive has never been favorable and is a growing category. We no longer just have to fear just storm or high tide.

How long can we blindly follow Antonius and not explore other options and colors? As dominating a card as life from the loam is, we have to be able to warp a format that seems to be ready to be taken over.

p.s. If you are going to like raven's crime than doesn't Liliana gain merit?

[Aggro_zombies]

Zombies, if you can get to Phoenix, I have a couch/floor for anyone to stay on.
Cool, thanks. I'm still trying to figure out who's going from here, though.


I also fully disagree with your separation of "combo" decks. I feel the decks can be lumped into a non-interactive deck category instead of a "combo" category. Unless you have specific interactive ways to deal with the non interactive decks then you pretty much auto lose or hope for terrible draws/misplays.

Burn is a combo deck that combos over the first few turns of the game and dredge can just as easily kill you in one turn with a nasty dread return. I am also upping the list to include reanimator seeing how a protected anything spells gg.
Combo isn't really a monolithic entity. Dredge is generally considered a combo deck but you can run maindeck Ooze to exile their good cards (and Surgicals post-board to do the same), large creatures like Tarmogoyf and Terravore to block, burn to keep their Zombies and power creatures in check, and Assault to go over the top if things head south. You can put up much more of a fight here than, say, Ad Nauseum storm, wherein you have Jack, Diddly, and Squat to stop them from going off.

Burn, for example, can be improved by running more cheap blockers and boarding into Zuran Orbs and discard spells. Burn is basically a very slow stack-based combo deck with a very bad topdeck mode; whether you have large blockers early and the ability to gain some life will dramatically change how much they have to draw to actually kill you. Discard spells are basically the equivalent of Healing Salves or better here. Again, you can put up much more of a fight than against a deck like, say, High Tide, wherein you can't stunt their mana and basically have to Mind Twist them to buy yourself enough time for your clocks to get there.


If I was looking for a gauntlet at this point, due to the broad spectrum of legacy, I would say you need to have options against blade control, gsz aggro, tempo, and non-interactive. The last category is so large that you have to chose broad answers maindeck and specific answers post board i.e. crypt vs blast.

Loam decks in general, imho, have good vs tempo and vs control match ups and vs midrange aggro match ups but non interactive has never been favorable and is a growing category. We no longer just have to fear just storm or high tide.
This is an issue of trade-offs. In your average tournament, how many of these non-interactive decks will you face, relative to the number of interactive decks? Keep in mind that interactive decks will be bringing in cards against you; presumably, their decks will be better against you in games two and three, so cutting out sideboard slots for them to handle combo means you will not gain a power boost, and may be losing edge. With that in mind, you need to answer the following questions:

(1) How often will I face non-interactive decks in X rounds, on average?
(2) How often will I face interactive decks in X rounds, on average?
(3) What do the interactive decks do in game one that causes me trouble?
(4) What will the interactive decks be boarding in games two and three that will cause me trouble?

The last two questions should be used to calculate approximate sideboard space needed to maintain an edge in your good matchups. The first two questions answer whether or not it's worth it to pursue anti-combo strategies; when the density of combo is low, you are better off shoring up your interactive matchups because you will lose more points on average by focusing on something you don't see very often while neglecting things you will.

However, it's also worth remembering that, if the answer to #1 is "a lot," this is not the deck you want to play. Tempo RUG has a very strong anti-combo match and would be better suited to a combo-heavy metagame. Again, remember that you're playing a deck that's 50% mana with a heavy focus on the late game. Adding discard doesn't change the fact that you're just not that scary to a combo deck.


How long can we blindly follow Antonius and not explore other options and colors? As dominating a card as life from the loam is, we have to be able to warp a format that seems to be ready to be taken over.

p.s. If you are going to like raven's crime than doesn't Liliana gain merit?
I tested a bit with Crime and it's way too win-more. It also doesn't stack up well against Jace TMS or Sylvan Library.

I would also argue that LftL is not really that good anymore. Jace TMS gives you far more card advantage and can kill the opponent all on his own, while the increase in immediately powerful effects - Stoneforge, GSZ, planeswalkers - weakens Loam's incremental card advantage plan. I love Aggro Loam, and it's a pet deck of mine, but any deck built around Life from the Loam is going to have serious inherent flaws stemming from the fact that it uses Life from the Loam as a central engine.

[Vacrix]

Punishing Fire was great in the two aggro matchups, and I love how much removal I had there. I didn't ever see my sideboard cards against them, though, so I still have no idea if Dreams is enough of a sweeper on its own to support a Naya build.
I like your list but I was curious as to why Devastating Dreams is only a 1'of in the board. I'm assuming this is because Punishing Fire destroys most shit in the format right now as Delver and Goblin Guide are heavily played and both have only 2 toughness. I was going to start playing Aggro Loam on Cockatrice and I wanted some advice on sweepers.

Or maybe as you were saying here a Naya build doesn't function as effectively with Dreams. Maybe another build runs Dreams more effectively? I've always thought it to be a staple in Aggro Loam.

[Aggro_zombies]

Perish is a known quantity against Maverick/random green stuff, but I wanted to see if Dreams specifically was enough. If it was, then going Naya becomes easier because you can just swap Perishes in the board to Dreams and still be good against aggro decks.

Dreams has the upside of destroying lands, which is randomly useful in non-aggro matchups. However, Perish is more effective as a Wrath. So I dunno.

EDIT: I should add that Dreams was a 1-of in my board for testing purposes. I probably won't use it if I stay on Jund.

[lavafrogg]

Your burn/dredge match ups involve them keeping sub par hands. Discard can usually get you from the start of the game to landing your hate card on turn 3, especially against more traditional combo. Usually you will be dead by the time an ooze gets active, not saying turn one ooze=> go cant happen, it just is not reliable.

I also find a hole in the 24-26 land as a negative in that 4-6 of those land cycle into gas. I constantly play games with loam where I see ever card I want to see in a matchup. 1 piece of disruption can buy time for the cyclers and confidant to find more disruption. 20 lands with 2-6 cantrips has a better chance of finding cards it needs.

Against interactive decks game one I feel loam has the edge in that card quantity can overwhelm an underprepared opponent. Games two and three you have to plan to play most of the game without loam/without a graveyard and plan accordingly. Jace is a game winner, their is no question when you have no hand/no board and they have no hand/no board and they drop a jace, you probably lose that game. But loam has an effect way before a jace should hit the board, recurring wastelands should keep their mana in check and recurring cycle lands and stronghold should keep creatures on the table. I feel like the loam deck can always be ahead in a control matchup and it is up to the control player to combat loam or lose.

I dont even know what I am arguing at this point. The beliefs on this forum and only changed by the opinions of the few and a tournament report from a winning list. I have no support and no report to offer. Ill be waiting with my junk lists if anyone feels that loam can do better than just a metagame deck.

[Vacrix]

Perish is a known quantity against Maverick/random green stuff, but I wanted to see if Dreams specifically was enough. If it was, then going Naya becomes easier because you can just swap Perishes in the board to Dreams and still be good against aggro decks.

Dreams has the upside of destroying lands, which is randomly useful in non-aggro matchups. However, Perish is more effective as a Wrath. So I dunno.

EDIT: I should add that Dreams was a 1-of in my board for testing purposes. I probably won't use it if I stay on Jund.
I would think that Dreams would be good against aggro actually considering it can wipe their entire board and keep them off lands, while Aggro Loam has a much easier time recovering from DD and then stabilizing. Also it gets rid of basics which compliments wasteland nicely. I'd imagine against a deck like Goblins they'll have an easier time recovering given that they play Vial, but Maverick wouldn't have it so easy. Also, in the non-aggro matchups you risk it getting Snared or Pierced, which is makes it a much more costly investment given that the discard is an additional cost.

I guess I'll find out in a few minutes when I start playing your list. Gotta say though.. Punishing Fire coupled with Seismic Assault looks pretty savage.

[Aggro_zombies]

The annoying parts about Dreams are that it's really not good if you don't have an active Life from the Loam, and it's random discard. I have definitely Dreams'd myself out of games doing exactly this - randomly discarding the land in my hand that I needed to Loam back my other destroyed lands, then not drawing another land for a few turns. I have also been in situations wherein I randomly discarded cards I wanted to keep and couldn't get them back fast enough. It's not a card I'm happy with playing because its usefulness varies so much. Perish doesn't have the same highs, but is much more consistent.

@lavafrogg: I'm not sure what to tell you, then. True Junk lists (that don't have Life from the Loam, run fewer lands, and have more discard and creatures) tend to struggle with combo precisely because discard alone does not get there; eventually, they will draw themselves into a good hand and kill you if you don't pressure them. Every time you pay mana to cycle a land, you are giving them more time to recover. Every time you brick by drawing a Mox Diamond, or a land that doesn't cycle, or a random Loam, you give them time to recover. Have you ever watched RUG versus, say, Ad Noz? Or, better yet, have you ever played RUG versus storm combo? I have. Doing so is pretty instructive and will tell you a lot about why Aggro Loam can't beat combo.

As for Loam, well...the metagame is full of Surgical Extractions and Snapcaster Mages right now. Constantly playing around that is a pain in the ass. I don't feel that Loam automatically favors you going long against control, especially not versus Snapcaster and Jace; UW Stoneblade's mana is not as shaky as you might think, and it is particularly easy for them to fetch basics and just blank Wasteland.

So yeah, dunno what to tell you. I prefer to talk about things that put up results because they're known quantities that can do well in large competitive settings.

[kortero]

Hello,

Last saturday I played a stock jund list in a 5 round tournament here in Finland. I started out 3-0 against UB delver, burn and a homebrew bgw loam with new Sorin's and such. After that I got paired against hivemind. I even won the game 1 as he didn't find any action, but in the next two he topdecked his way out of my thoughtseize into surgical starts. In the last round I got paired against an almost identical jund list. The mirror is pretty boring as the first one to find loam pretty much wins it. My hands were fine in g1 and g2, but his was just better. 3-0 into 3-2. Well, one can't win it all. Oh, and seismic assault (I played 3 of them) was as good as always winning me games here and there. Noxious revival was also nuts out of the sideboard. On the paper it felt like "meh", but during the games it was really good. The card is just so versatile that it's one of the few cards that are non-questionable in my sb in the future.

While I still enjoy the deck as much as I did enjoy it the first time I tried it more that two years ago at gp madrid (even made day2), I've been thinking if a legacy version of the "modern loam" would be any good. This is my latest list:

4 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Badland
2 Bayou
1 Forest
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronhold
2 Forgotten Cave
1 Tranquil Thicket

3 Mox Diamond

4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Life from the Loam
4 Faithless Looting
1 Thoughseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Raven's Crime
2 Flame Jab

3 Punishing Fire

3 Liliana of the Veil

3 Seismic Assault

The list is really tight. I had to go down to 25 lands and 3 moxes instead of 27/4 to fit in the spells I wanted. Lootings also help to dig for lands and get rid of useless moxes later on. The basic configuration of 7 cycling lands became 4 looting and 3 cycling lands. Btw., Looting is nuts in this kind of build, but that shouldn't come as a big surprise to anyone. 3 point discards + 2 raven's crime feels like a solid amount. 3 punishing fires + 2 (one mana) burn spells should work as well. I'm not sure though if the flame jabs are a good fit in legacy, and if few lightning bolts would just be better. The deck needs to have a critical amount of cards that one wants to dredge and loot to gy and that's one of the reasons why I currently have the jabs in. Few Scavenging Oozes might/would/should be good also, but I haven't been able to fit them either. Again, I though that the md of a stock jund loam is tight, but this deck.. Manabase might look sketchy, but it has worked well so far. Filter lands might fix things, but the biggest problem with them is the fact that they don't provide colored mana on turn 1 and this build has 9-11 t1 plays. Other basics than forest are really hard to justify, but I feel that the forest is needed for loaming purposes against mana denial.

Anyway, this is what I'm goldfishing at the moment. The deck feels solid and I'm eagerly waiting to try it out in a tournament to see if it really is any good in legacy. I understand that it's risky to get more gy oriented as splash hate will hit the deck even harder than before, but other than that, I feel that this kind of build might be worth pursuing into.. Try it out or comment just by looking at the build. Any feedback is welcome!

B r,
Roope

[sdematt]

That Jund list looks like a Modern list with Mox Diamonds and 3 Cycling lands. This isn't to say that's bad, just an observation.

RE: Maelstrom Pulse

It also doubles as creature removal, Aggro. Sure, it's slow, but it does also kill Jace, which can be a problem if you're not active, or Elspeth or whatever that's going to kill you.

If your real trouble is the equipment or the creatures, I ran Putrefy back when MM was in the meta and it was great. Instant speed was REALLY nice. But, if creatures aren't the issue for you AT ALL, just run 1 or 2 Ancient Grudge in the main. You won't care if you mill them, and you free up sideboard space, allowing you to play something else, like discard, etc.

RE: REB from the board

REB gives you more game against Counterbalance, which literally murders us, and Maelstrom Pulse also takes out Counterbalance. RUG is playing it in the board. Sure, it is really slow for them to do so, and probably not worth bringing in, but if you're facing it, it's fucking miserable to get locked on 2. But, the same could be said about preemptive discard, so whatever.

I used to play 2 Fires and 3 Grove, again, back during the MM meta, but I keep coming back to the fact that it's slow and I don't get as much value as I feel I should be getting. Maybe running a full set would make me "see the light," but it just feels REALLY derdly.

I'm thinking:

4 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Barbarian Ring
3 Forgotten Cave
3 Tranquil Thicket
3 Taiga
2 Badlands
1 Bayou
3 Wasteland
26

3 Countryside Crusher
4 Dark Confidant
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Terravore
13

4 Mox Diamond
2 Sylvan Library
3 Seismic Assault
4 Life from the Loam
13

2 Maelstrom Pulse (or 1 Pulse 1 Putrefy, or 2 Grudge, or 1 Grudge 1 Pulse, etc.)
3 Ghastly Demise
4 Lightning Bolt (or 2 Bolt, 2 Lavamancer, or whatever, just brainstorming)
9

--BOARD--
2 Virtue's Ruin
1 Devastating Dreams
2 Krosan Grip
1 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Ancient Grudge (or if these are in the main, something else)
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Noxious Revival

-Matt

[kortero]

That Jund list looks like a Modern list with Mox Diamonds and 3 Cycling lands. This isn't to say that's bad, just an observation.

That's absolutely true. What the deck gains compared to the modern version is Mox Diamonds for acceleration and Punishing Fire/Grove combo. I just don't know yet if that's enough :)

[Aggro_zombies]

@sdematt: I haven't had a problem with P Fire being durdley. It's a pretty solid way to keep everything smaller than Tarmogoyf off the table and gives you another way to kill planeswalkers. What I dislike most about it is having to run Grove of the Burnwillows.

As for Pulse - I get that it can kill creatures, but it's often something I'm reluctant to do because, with the exception of Knight, basically every creature I'm killing with it costs less, and many of them have CiP abilities to make Pulse feel even sillier. I suppose I can see keeping it in over Grudge or discard spells because it also kills Jace, but it's the first thing I take out in a lot of matchups.

@kortero: I have a couple of issues with that build. For starters, I don't think either Raven's Crime or Flame Jab is good enough in Legacy; the latter is pretty eclipsed by Lavamancer, Punishing Fire, Lightning Bolt, and Seismic Assault, while the former is often win-more when it isn't being downright terrible (i.e., against aggro decks). I'd considering swapping the Crimes to IoKs and turning the jabs into extra cycling lands or maybe a Scavenging Ooze or two. I feel like that build is a little threat-light, making it softer than normal to StP + Snapcaster, but that may be something you can remedy in game two.

[Richard Cheese]

I think Beast Within is a decent substitute for Pulse in Aggro Loam. A 3/3 is rarely anything you care about, and a pretty small downside for something that's easy on the manabase, and instant.

Just a thought, but Aggro Loam could pretty easily board in Cursed Totem, as it hoses Maverick pretty bad, but doesn't affect our own creatures. Probably not worth the spots though, as Maverick isn't a terrible matchup to begin with.

If Snapcaster --> Extraction is really the biggest hurdle the deck has to overcome in the current meta, there's always Torpor Orb! Turns off SFM too, along with a handful of other oddball creatures.

[Aggro_zombies]

I think Beast Within is a decent substitute for Pulse in Aggro Loam. A 3/3 is rarely anything you care about, and a pretty small downside for something that's easy on the manabase, and instant.

Just a thought, but Aggro Loam could pretty easily board in Cursed Totem, as it hoses Maverick pretty bad, but doesn't affect our own creatures. Probably not worth the spots though, as Maverick isn't a terrible matchup to begin with.

If Snapcaster --> Extraction is really the biggest hurdle the deck has to overcome in the current meta, there's always Torpor Orb! Turns off SFM too, along with a handful of other oddball creatures.
My beef with Pulse is the 3cmc. If it was just BG, I'd run it all day and be happy. But then again, Pulse for BG seems too good in general.

Snapcaster's power can be mitigated by running your own Surgicals (although I'm wondering if Surgical is necessarily better than Extirpate here). My biggest issue out of the blue decks is Jace + board control. If they cast Jace and Brainstorm, or cast Jace and have a bunch of cards in hand, you are probably screwed because they'll be able to protect him from removal and your dorks for several turns (or at least until you run out of removal and dorks). P Fires are quite good here, but I want something else. Jace is the blue deck's biggest out to you just smashing them.

[sdematt]

But, Surgical is also mitigated by Grim Lavamancer, Cycling Lands, and Noxious Revival. You're also boarding out 1 Loam and 1 Seismic in Game 2, usually.

Oh for sure, if Pulse was BG, I'd run that shit to the point of infinite.

RE: Beast Within,

You'd be surprised how good a 3/3 is. Sure, not as good as a Jace, but if you have to use it on an Equipment or something, a 3/3 pounding your face in, in addition to the other creatures they have, it's nothing to sneeze at. It's definitely an option though, I do like instant speed Planeswalker removal. Response to your Jace-storm, muck it?

RE: Cursed Totem

Totem is pretty good, and does bone Ooze (what a cunt) and Qasali (again, cunt). I'm good with this, but, what are you cutting? In reality, I'd almost want to run more regular removal.

RE: Removal

So guys, in general, let's get down to brass tacks, what are we worried about? What cards/creatures are giving us trouble? We're having trouble deciding on the removal to use to due , a) being in Jund for the most part, thereby giving us more but worse options than per the normal, b) no general consensus as to what's boning us.

I know this was posted above, but consider the following: /Bill Nye voice

Bolt: Hits Jace (most of the time they'll Brainstorm, since we usually don't have pressure), so this kills Jace. Doesn't kill Goyf, Knight, Ooze (depending).
Lavamancer: Reusuable 2-damage, but mucks our own graveyard. Bad with Ghastly, but decent overall.
Maelstrom Pulse: Hits Jace, takes out tokens (important possibly in the Esper matchup), hits Goyf, Knight, etc. Slow.
Ghastly Demise: Hits everything except Jace and Batterskull token, but bad really early on, fine otherwise. Soft to Ooze.
Putrefy: Bad on the mana, but instant speed equipment and creature removal. Kills all the creatures, even Knight, Ooze, Goyf, etc.
Engineered Explosives: Can kill Jace, but can also have friendly fire. Soft to Stifle and Qasali.
Punishing Fires: Inevitability, but slow as hell. Hits Jace, but doesn't kill Knight, Ooze, Goyf, etc.
Deathmark: Doesn't hit Jace, but kills Knight, Goyf, Ooze regardless of P/T. Not graveyard dependent. Doesn't cost 2.
Terminate: Kills all the creatures, but Spell Snareable, not graveyard dependent.

So essentially, we're facing down a few main threats here. Equipment/Batterskull, Jace, Knight, and Ooze. Ooze bones our Loam gameplan and graveyard, Batterskull is crafty to deal with, Knight is huge and can avoid non-destroy removal, and Jace is a huge problem regarding creature combat and pulling ahead.

So, we have 9-10 slots in the main (I suggest 9-10 dedicated to removal, like back when it was MM.meta) to be able to deal with the tide of stuff. I think if we're running Jund, we NEED 2-3 sweepers in the board, either Perish or Virtue's Ruin.

Ideally, we're looking for a combination of card(s) that overlap our 4 main categories the most: kills big things, kills Jace, not graveyard dependent, kills little things.

By my calculation, Bolt covers 3/4, Terminate covers 3/4, Putrefy covers 3/4, Ghastly covers 2/4, Deathmark covers 2.5/4 (limited), Punishing Fires covers 2/4, Lavamancer covers 2/4, Pulse covers 4/4 (but slow, more like 3.5), beast covers 4/4 (but 3/3, so 3.25/4). By this assumption, our removal suite should be some combination of:

Maelstrom Pulse (awkward mana)
Lightning Bolt
Terminate (Spell Snare)
Putrefy (awkward mana)
Deathmark (kills Ooze/Knight/Goyf, easy on mana)

What about:
1)

1 Putrefy
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Deathmark
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Terminate
@ 10 pieces of removal.

total score: 3+3.5+5+12+6=29.5

Or:

2)

1 Putrefy
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Deathmark
2 Terminate
@ 10 pieces of removal = 30

Or:

3)

1 Putrefy
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Deathmark
2 Terminate
@ 9 pieces of removal

My point is, we need to see what's doing what and why and when. So against the top decks, like see what's a dead card, assuming suite one or two:

Delver: Deathmark is the only one that's not the greatest here, but save it for Goyf.

Stoneblade: Deathmark only good against the tokens or SFM, everything else is fine. Maelstrom and Bolt only hit Jace, none of your other stuff does.

Maverick: Bolts don't kill Knights, but everything else, but Deathmark is the nuts here.

As we can see even from before, Deathmark isn't the tits in 2/3 of the big matchups, but is insanely good in the 1/3. I'd almost warrant running it unless you're all Delver in your meta.

I don't like Beast, in all honesty. You're creating another problem.

Thoughts?

-Matt

[Aggro_zombies]

The problem with Putrefy is that it's like a bad Terminate when aimed at a creature and a bad Maelstrom Pulse when not aimed at a creature. I generally want my creature removal to either cost less than the things it's killing or come with some awesome bonus.

I think Terminate is fine for killing big things. There aren't a ton of decks right now that run big creatures AND Spell Snare - Stoneblade, for example, gets mopped up pretty handily by Punishing Fire. Against Maverick, Bolt, Lavamancer, and Fire can keep small guys in check, and they probably don't have a way to stop Terminate aside from Mom. It seems less narrow than Deathmark to me, but maybe the narrower card is fine given how many creatures are green or white these days.

Burn can occasionally kill a Tarmogoyf, either in conjunction with Ooze or post-combat if they blocked with it. Fire is great for this if they aren't keeping track of it in the graveyard.

I really, really like how much card advantage P Fires provide. There are points in the game against aggro where having an active Fire means the opponent is just dead to your guys because they will never be able to keep a blocker on the table. It also makes semi-swarm strategies (like Maverick) way worse because they usually can't play guys quickly enough to outpace your Fires...and then all their guys die, and they die to your Crushers. The card is great at mopping things up.

That said, I agree that the removal suite needs work. Lightning Bolt feels good against aggro because it increase the density of kill spells early, but I haven't yet felt like a game came down to Bolting the opponent for the last points of damage. I like the flexibility on paper, but in practice...maybe a Bolt/Deathmark split is worth it. I don't know.

Also, the 1-of Library in my build can probably go. It's the definition of "okay" when I get it, but only running one means I rarely see it, and I feel like that slot could be better as something else. Fires provide a lot of card advantage, so I don't feel like I need more, per se.

[bfeingersh]

Is there any reason to board Dread of Night? I like the idea of playing it ever since I saw it in Nick Spagnolo's invitational list, but is it better than other alternatives we could be playing (Virtue's Ruin, Devastating Dreams, etc.)?

I'm going to bring some to my weekly legacy thing tonight and see how it goes.

[Aggro_zombies]

Is there any reason to board Dread of Night? I like the idea of playing it ever since I saw it in Nick Spagnolo's invitational list, but is it better than other alternatives we could be playing (Virtue's Ruin, Devastating Dreams, etc.)?

I'm going to bring some to my weekly legacy thing tonight and see how it goes.
What does Dread of Night actually kill?

Dies:
Mother of Runes
Spirit tokens
Aven Mindcensor
Thalia

Does not die:
Qasali
Knight
Stoneforge
Geist
Teeg
Canonist

Of the things that die, Mom seems like the most important, followed by Thalia (who is more annoying than actually game-changing). Not killing Knight, Qasali, Stoneforge, or various other niche cards seems kind of bad, though.

I guess against Esper versions the Spirit tokens are annoying. But you have other ways to soften up an Esper deck.

[Koby]

I still think that DD is the best way to fight Maverick. Just make sure to not get locked out from re-Loaming after the DD.

[Aggro_zombies]

I still think that DD is the best way to fight Maverick. Just make sure to not get locked out from re-Loaming after the DD.
Dreams, huh. I've been on the fence about Dreams or Perish versus aggro decks. I like that Perish kills Knight and mana dorks, no questions asked, but also murdering half my own guys does not feel good.

[Koby]

That is, provided that Knight can also be answered. Perish/Virtue's Ruin is good in that respect. Also, DD is just better in Naya Loam too since the alternative doesn't exist.

[Aggro_zombies]

That is, provided that Knight can also be answered. Perish/Virtue's Ruin is good in that respect. Also, DD is just better in Naya Loam too since the alternative doesn't exist.
I've been trying to get a feel for the relative sizes of post-Dreams Knights versus post-Dreams Crushers in the Jund versions. If Crusher is usually bigger, it's not unreasonable to just race. Plus, if I'm going to switch up my removal package to include Terminates and/or Deathmarks, Knight does not seem like that much of an issue.

I also like that you can tempo Dreams on turn three or so for a couple of points and just wipe the board of opposition. Provided, of course, that you have a Mox Diamond and your Crusher is large enough to survive a Dreams.

Dreams seems fantastic in Naya builds not just because you have no alternative (for the record, I think Perish still edges out Virtue's Ruin despite nuking your team), but also because you are running Knights of your own. Having a Knight and a Crusher active post-Dreams seems like an absolute thrashing.

[Richard Cheese]

As far as targeted removal goes, has anyone tried out Ghastly Demise?

Against Maverick I agree that sweepers are best. Dreams seems pretty bad main with Spell Snare being everywhere...maybe just a 2-of Burning Wish in its spot (without moving a Loam to the board)? Against control it's probably still going to get countered, but if it doesn't you can always grab something more relevant like Worm Harvest or Pulse. I know there have been cases made against Wish in the past, but I'm talking about maybe 3-4 cards in the board max rather than devoting 10+ spots to targets.

[Aggro_zombies]

As far as targeted removal goes, has anyone tried out Ghastly Demise?

Against Maverick I agree that sweepers are best. Dreams seems pretty bad main with Spell Snare being everywhere...maybe just a 2-of Burning Wish in its spot (without moving a Loam to the board)? Against control it's probably still going to get countered, but if it doesn't you can always grab something more relevant like Worm Harvest or Pulse. I know there have been cases made against Wish in the past, but I'm talking about maybe 3-4 cards in the board max rather than devoting 10+ spots to targets.
sdematt likes Ghastly. I think it's so-so.

I don't like Burning Wish in Aggro Loam. It's a tempo black hole, has "Spell Snare me" written all over it and wrecks your sideboard. One could, like you said, just run 3-4 dedicated Wish slots, but then Wish loses value because you have a narrower range of stuff to get with it, and to be honest there's not a whole lot I'd want to Wish for right now. Worm Harvest is pretty expensive for what it is (and an especially tempting Surgical target), Dreams is fine but you really want multiples so you can side it in against the aggro matchups (which is the lion's share of where you want it), and then what else do you run? Pulse? Raven's Crime? There aren't a lot of good options for a Wishboard, even a small one.

[Koby]

It might be win-more to include the DD, but the land destruction is pretty much the icing on the cake and 90% of agrgo decks can't recover from an early sweep - like on turn 2/3.

[sdematt]

I'm running a 1-of DD instead of 3rd Ruin because of the land destruction aspect. Take Maverick, for instance. If you DD on T3 for 3, you're taking out all their lands, and presumably, all their guys. You, on the other hand, will hopefully have Loam or a Mox Diamond you've run this off of. It'll be MUCH harder for them to recover from both a board-sweep and the land destruction, even if they now have a 5/5 Knight.

Ghastly has been fine for me, but like I said, it only covers 2/4 of our removal requirements. I've never had problems with it, but I could see an early Ooze causing a bit of headache...maybe. Once you've Dredged once or twice, it's fine (or if you've cracked fetches or played anything, for that matter).

-Matt

[Aggro_zombies]

I'm running a 1-of DD instead of 3rd Ruin because of the land destruction aspect. Take Maverick, for instance. If you DD on T3 for 3, you're taking out all their lands, and presumably, all their guys. You, on the other hand, will hopefully have Loam or a Mox Diamond you've run this off of. It'll be MUCH harder for them to recover from both a board-sweep and the land destruction, even if they now have a 5/5 Knight.

Ghastly has been fine for me, but like I said, it only covers 2/4 of our removal requirements. I've never had problems with it, but I could see an early Ooze causing a bit of headache...maybe. Once you've Dredged once or twice, it's fine (or if you've cracked fetches or played anything, for that matter).

-Matt
I think I just have a number of historical hangups to running Ghastly. Playing this deck in Crypt_and_Counterbalance.format was a real bad time.

That said, Deathmark kills 90% of what Ghastly does on average. Goblins isn't really a deck anymore (and you are handily beating it if you see it), Merfolk isn't really a deck anymore (and you are probably beating it if you see it), and various black/whatever decks are resistant to both Deathmark and Ghastly Demise. So yeah, instant-speed aside, I think Deathmark takes it here.

[sdematt]

I've been on the Deathmark wagon for months, especially in Rock. Our meta went really Delver for a while, so I've replaced them with Ghastly, but not sure if it'll swing back.

-Matt

[Aggro_zombies]

I've been on the Deathmark wagon for months, especially in Rock. Our meta went really Delver for a while, so I've replaced them with Ghastly, but not sure if it'll swing back.

-Matt
I don't think there's too much of a cost to running, say, 2 Deathmark main. In the Delver matchups it still hits Tarmogoyf, at least.

[sdematt]

Oh, for sure, but I still wanted a bit more versatility. I'll probs be switching it back.

-Matt

[bfeingersh]

Man would Dread of Night have come in handy. I left it out of the board and faced Esper Spirits and D&T :(

2-1, but I'm not playing close to optimally and making infinite small mistakes

[Tamariz]

Hey, guys

I've been playin naya loam for a while, and i think it's stronger than jund and 4c loam builds. The only reason for B is DC and some side, but I have cut him for library and fires, which add those "little" combos. Fire is great against mystic and planeswalkers.

here's my last build:

-34 spells

4 knight
3 crusher
3 tarmogoyf
1 terravore

4 wish
3 loam
2 dreams

3 punishing fire

2 assault
1 sylvan library

4 mox
4 chalice


-26 lands

4 wfoothills
2 mire
3 wasteland
3 grove
3 taiga
1 plateau

3 thicket
3 cave

1 forest
1 mountain

1 maze
1 barbarian ring (maybe some other tool land?)


SB:

2 grip
2 EE
2 Thrun
2 scavenging ooze
1 loam
1 dreams
1 worm harvest
1 tariff
1 reverent silence
1 shattering spree
1 karakas

I think that 4 chalice are definitely better than our 1cmc options (except, maybe, for swords). My opinion is that lavamancer/bolt<chalice in almost all our pairings. Also, fire is a better direct damage source option in this deck.

I'm not sure about the side, maybe could add more grave hate, or 3 confinements against combo.

What do you think about it?

[sdematt]

This may be true that Chalice is better than Bolt is most settings, but, what would you rather have against Jace: Chalice, or Bolt?

Now, your argument is sound, in a sense. Chalice of the Void is a good card right now. However, by playing Chalice, we do lose some of our own efficiency by not being able to use Bolt/Ghastly. Now, when MM was around, this was a different story. I ran zero 1-drops to avoid MM and earn 4 dead cards played in almost every deck, without nutting myself at all.

My problem with Chalice is this:

a) remove all 1-drops
b) Play Chalice on either turn 1 or 2, but now, if we don't draw Mox, we're definitely doing NOTHING on turn 1, for sure.
c) Land Chalice. Subsequent Chalices now become awful. Subsequent Bolts, however, do not.

I understand it from a removal and an advantage point of view to stopping STP and Brainstorms and whatnot, but it's not like Stax where we're also stopping them from doing anything else using Tangle Wire or Trinisphere.

But, do tell us how you find it. Maybe I'm just caught in the past, but I've never really liked Chalice in this deck.

-Matt

[kusumoto]

This may be true that Chalice is better than Bolt is most settings, but, what would you rather have against Jace: Chalice, or Bolt?

Now, your argument is sound, in a sense. Chalice of the Void is a good card right now. However, by playing Chalice, we do lose some of our own efficiency by not being able to use Bolt/Ghastly. Now, when MM was around, this was a different story. I ran zero 1-drops to avoid MM and earn 4 dead cards played in almost every deck, without nutting myself at all.

My problem with Chalice is this:

a) remove all 1-drops
b) Play Chalice on either turn 1 or 2, but now, if we don't draw Mox, we're definitely doing NOTHING on turn 1, for sure.
c) Land Chalice. Subsequent Chalices now become awful. Subsequent Bolts, however, do not.

I understand it from a removal and an advantage point of view to stopping STP and Brainstorms and whatnot, but it's not like Stax where we're also stopping them from doing anything else using Tangle Wire or Trinisphere.

But, do tell us how you find it. Maybe I'm just caught in the past, but I've never really liked Chalice in this deck.

-Matt

I find myself missing chalice not for the offensive as much as the defensive. Chalice at one still shuts off most removal. I've had too many games where I got blown out by decks that just had a plow/path then snapcaster->path/plow for all of my guys.

How are we fixing that issue with 1cmc things?

[Aggro_zombies]

Snapcaster for infinite removal can be fixed by Surgical/Extirpate and damage spells like Punishing Fire and Seismic Assault.

Past that, there aren't really that many 1cc things that you're afraid of.

[lavafrogg]

How good is punishing fires/grove right now? This seems to be the main power play in many of these loam reports. They basically read: kill all utility creatures and all plainswalkers, is this the new strongest reason to play loam?

[sdematt]

Placed 2nd at a local tournament, report to follow.

Had to play the mirror match in the semi's, Punishing Fires version vs. Mine. Suffice to say, I fucked shit up and got there like a fucking champ. Crush that shit!

-Matt

[lavafrogg]

I imagine the fires versions will be the worst in the mirror match due to the huge creatures that fires cannot touch. Vs say, maverick or blade the fires version should perform better....

[sdematt]

My list:

4 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Mountain
1 Forest
3 Wasteland
1 Barbarian Ring
1 Volrath's Stronghold
3 Tranquil Thicket
3 Forgotten Cave
3 Taiga
2 Badlands
1 Bayou

3 Countryside Crusher
1 Terravore
4 Dark Confidant
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Scavenging Ooze

4 Mox Diamond
4 Life from the Loam
3 Seismic Assault
2 Terminate
2 Deathmark
1 Maelstorm Pulse
1 Putrefy
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Sylvan Library

--BOARD--
1 Devastating Dreams
2 Virtue's Ruin
2 Noxious Revival
3 REB
2 Krosan Grip
2 Ancient Grudge
3 Extirpate

Round 1: Chad with Esper Stoneblade

I think I win the die roll for the first game, and we go back and forth a bit. I get some stuff countered, but eventually land Loam + Assault. He scoops.

In: +2 Ancient Grudge, +2 Noxious Revival, +1 Krosan Grip
Out: -1 Loam, -1 Seismic Assault, -1 Ooze, -1 Deathmark, -1 Putrefy

Game 2, Pretty sure he either Jaces me out or some crap like that. I draw into land, land, land, etc. I lose Loam to Surgical.

Game 3, I get Loamed Surgicaled, I dodge with a cycling land. I loam again, he plays Surgical, I attempt to Noxious dodge. He has a counterspell. Fair. I drop two Countryside Crushers and Seismic. I rumble in for lots. Scoops!

Round 2: Jacob with Maverick

Game 1 is basically 100% drama. I've got Dark Confidant and Countryside Crusher online with a Loam, while he's got a SFM I couldn't deal with (SoLaS, i had Deathmark a turn too late), and a bunch of other garbage online. He drops 2 Qasali and swings in, I draw and lay out a Mox diamond, pitching a land, but forgetting the trigger to Countryside Crusher. I put down a fetchland and have a Cycler in hand with Loam in the bin.

Now, at this point, he has 2 Qasali's and a tapped SFM with a Light and Shadow. At best, he's got a 5/6 and I've got a 5/5 for sure. But, I figure I can cycle Dredge Loam and get to 6/6 or more. Fair enough.

So, we move to his main phase, and he attacks with SFM at 5/6. I crack my fetch, ticking my Crusher up. He stops and calls the judge. He asks for the oracle text on my Russian Crusher, and then says I missed a trigger last turn. I missed it, so I say I totally did, and sorry. Judge says since it's been less than a turn cycle, that to apply the counter now and get some warnings. He then accused me of cheating and missing the trigger on purpose to try and juice him in combat (by then saying, "Oh yeah, missed the trigger, now I juice your SFM").

So, it gets into a bit of an argument, since my Crushers are Russian. He says I'm trying to use that as an edge to try and get him. I tell him he could've asked for the oracle at any time, and the judge is letting him back up to before combat. He says he wants to back up to the previous turn, since he fetched a Qasali with the GSZ instead of an Ooze. Judge no-sirs him on that, and we continue to play, but he gets super belligerent. Basically, he says if I don't know my deck, don't play it. I basically tell him that missed triggers happen, and asked him about his perfect technical play. I swing in with Crusher for almost lethal leaving him at 2), but not cycling my lands to kill him on the spot. Instead, I let him come back on the swing back into my Ooze (which pumped itself up to a 6/6, blocked his SFM, killed it, and I didn't die). Take that, champ.

In: +2 Virtue's Ruin, +1 Devastating Dreams, +1 Noxious Revival.
Out: -1 Life from the Loam, -1 Seismic Assault, -1 Putrefy, -1 Goyf

Game 2, I get overrun when I don't draw lands.

Game 3, I open with a Mox opener into T2 Seismic Assault, mucking his Turn 1 Noble. I can't get multiple Loams per turn due to me mana, so I have to only 6 him per turn. He lucksacks the Qasali, and i drop another Seismic. He has another Qasali, and I drop Crusher, then Crusher. He has a Swords, but then drops Sylvan Library. Eventually, he plays out a turn with Knight, Mother, SFM, Teeg, and something else white. He Bogs the fuck out of me, and I start cycling (was tapped out at the time) to look for removal. His Knight is tapped, but has enough on the swing back to kill me, and he only has to chump with , well, anything. I cycling four times and get Virtue's Ruin, muck his entire board, swing for exact. He doesn't believe Virtue's Ruin is a card. By God, it is.

Rest of the report to follow soon!

-Matt

[sdematt]

Round 3: Nixon with Esper Stoneblade:

Game 1 I get locked out of the game with Jace very early on, and he was discard and many counters. Sigh.

Same boarding as before.

Game 2 I end up getting there by pulling a needed Ancient Grudge and Terravore gets there in two swings through a token army and Batterskull (that died to Grudge).

Game 3 I keep a 6 of Ooze, Goyf, Crusher and 3 lands. Slow, but not a bad 6. He has 3 pieces of discard, then I flood on lands for the next ten turns. What the fucking fuck.

Round 4: Brandon (winner of the SCG SLC Open) with Aggro Loam

Brandon plays this deck in Modern, but he has much less experience with it in Legacy. He starts off with a Turn 1 Loam, but I'm on Turn 1 Bob. He Fires my Bob, then passes. I drop Loam, and cycle. I fetch all basics, and leave his Wastes dead. I push Seismic and kill him in a single turn with Bolt + many lands.

In: +3 Extirpate, +2 Noxious Revival, +2 Grip
Out: -4 Bob (Fires, yuck), -1 Putrefy, -1 Deathmark, -1 Loam

I get stuck on one Badlands and a Wasteland, but then I get greedy and Waste him. He draws into lands and plays Assault. I sit for ten turns and don't draw lands while he derdles and I just scoop it up.

Game 3, however, is great. I go turn 1 Loam, he plays Goyf. I play Pulse, he plays Loam. I dredge, then drop Ooze and suck up Goyf. He plays Ooze (tapped out), and I suck up more Dredges creatures to have a 5/5 Ooze. I start beating in. I draw Deathmark, and juice him. He tries to Dredge Loam, but I have double green to get rid of it. I then Extirpate his Fires. GG. Experience and knowing the deck definitely helped, I'd say.

Overall, I place 2nd on tiebreaks, since Jacob didn't beat Nixon (if he had, I would have won). Oh well.

Overall, I loved the list. Putrefy came out every time due to Grudge being better, but Game 1 instant speed artifact removal theoretically seems good. My split of Deathmark/Terminate/Bolt however was awesome, I loved it.

-Matt

[Aggro_zombies]

Matt, what are your thoughts on Extirpate over Surgical? And why didn't you board Extirpate in against Stoneblade?

EDIT: derp.

[sdematt]

What am I going to hit? Souls? Seems fine, but I didn't have much to cut...

I knew I was going to be playing against Loam possibly, so I ran Extirpate over Surgical. Otherwise, it'd be Surgical.

-Matt

[Aggro_zombies]

What am I going to hit? Souls? Seems fine, but I didn't have much to cut...

I knew I was going to be playing against Loam possibly, so I ran Extirpate over Surgical. Otherwise, it'd be Surgical.

-Matt
I was thinking removal, mostly, or their Surgicals.

Doesn't Stoneblade typically only run a few pieces of equipment? I'm wondering if you need all the artifact hate.

[sdematt]

True, but they can be super annoying.

-Matt

[Arcadia]

Long time since I played loam, I would like to use it again.
Has anyone tested GSZ? REALLY tested, not sth like 'it's awesome/ it sucks' I mean. I think it could go really well in this deck, as you can play a big monster on turn 3, or fetch a big monster afterwards. Furthermore, you can run it with chalice MD and have 8 turn one plays.

[razvan]

I have tested it. It was mediocre, because you can only really run 1, max 2. I added a Dryad Arbor, and used only Ooze/Terravore MD, and Loaming Shaman SB. I basically did add it only for the Loaming Shaman, and it was good every time i needed it, because even turn 3/4, it's nice to reset the dredge player, when Ooze is just not enough the previous turn.

But unfortunately, sometimes getting to turn 3/4 is rough, and without Mox Diamond, it's a problem, but there is always that.

Either way, I don't think many people like it, and it's not really worth it, because you have to warm your MD a bit around it.

I still don't like Chalice, because I think Lightning Bolt is so great.

[Anarky87]

Came back after a long hiatus and picked this deck back up for our local legacy and made 3rd with it. I didn't have any Noxious Revivals, but I am curious what they're used for? Are they there just to save your Loams from gettign Extracted? Thanks.

[sdematt]

Save your Loams; bring back Ooze, Pulse, Assault in counter heavy matchups, etc.

-Matt

[lavafrogg]

It is really good when people are trying to extract your loams but not when they are trying to extirpate them. It really just plays as a random utility cars and a pseudo-mirage tutor in the mid-late game.

[kusumoto]

I think another honorable mention goes to Chalice these days in that it stops most of the graveyard hate people are packing now i.e. Extraction and Extirpate.

[sdematt]

True, but then your bolts get fucked. Now, this is not to say I won't try it again, but cutting things is hard :(

-Matt

[alrightgame]

This is a report from SCG Des Moine with a 150 player showing. Not all of it may be accurate completely accurate, but the results are. I played tony's list only with ancient grudge instead of krosan grip. I ended up placing 19th, just short of tiebreakers to the top 16.

Edit: Sorry for all the grammatical and misplaced sentence structure. Didn't feel like taking too much time on this report.

Round One: burn
Game 1: Guy suspends rift bolt and I know it is a race. I bolt him to the face turn one because my hand is all tempo. I proceed to win the race with Tarmogoyf.

-1 seismic, -1 crusher +2 orb

Game 2: I have seismic in my hand and an orb. He plays sulfuric vortex on his third turn (naturally playing first), and I knew I needed to land seismic to win the race, so orb didn't do anything. He got there just before I did with a fireblast.

Game 3: (forgot to include this game) I played a turn 1 dark confidant and an orb. He didn't burn the confidant and died to it.

1-0
Round two: MUD.

This game was me making a stupid mistake of killing a wurm coil engine that comes down turn 2 with seismic assault while not killing welder because I wanted to draw into my out and let my crusher live instead of blocking the wurm coil. Either way I would have been dead with out an out to a token, but I feel I should have killed the welder after the fact.

-2 tarmogoyf

Game 2 he plays turn 2 hasted metalworker for 8 mana into monolith into lodestone golem and forgemaster and I don't have ancient grudge until my dredge with loam..

1-1

Round three: maverick

Game 1 was a long game of me drawing answers and lands, but no threats. 35 minutes later, I had 4 land in my library and 3 creatures drawn, total.

-4 goyf
+2 perish +2 ancient grudge

Game 2 was another long game involving engineered explosives destroy jitte, then maelstrom pulse mopping up two knights and beating in with multiple very large crushers.

Game 3 didn't happen. Opponent complains about drawing.

1-1-1

Round 4: BWR zombies w/tombstalker

Game 1: I beat his early tombstalker with double lightning bolt and eat him with a 5/6 tarmogoyf.

-1 mox -2 tranquil thicket -1 crusher -1 goyf

+1 nihil spellbomb +2 noxious revival +2 surgical extraction

Game 2: He mulls to five and draw perfectly into tombstalker and, crawler, and carrion feeder and I draw no removal. He also casts tragic slip on bob.

Game 3: He casts crawler, and 2 bloodghasts. He taps out turn 4 for something I don't remember. I bolt his crawler, play a ooze and eat the crawler. I let him beat me down with bloodghasts, so his tragic slips are dead. I dredge into creatures and play a few more to seal the deal.

2-1-1

Round 5: Esper Stoneblade

Game 1: We both mull. I cast turn 1 bob, turn 2 bob, tarmogoyf, ooze, and crusher. I stupidly remove lingering souls and brainstorm before attacking so goyf is small, creatures and card advantage get there.

-1 mox diamond, -2 tranquil thicket, -2 goyf, -1 seismic assault
+2 pyroblast, +2 noxious revival, +1 anicent grudge, +1 surgical extraction

Game 2: I don't recall how most of this game goes, but I believe jitte did me in. He tries to extract loam but I cycle a land.

Game 3: Opponent mulls to five with one land. I have no threats, but wasteland him out. I eventually kill him with creatures.

Note: I don't know if this opponent actually honestly thought this or not, what happened seemed fishy at the end: He tried to force a draw by telling the judge next to us that it was 1-1 when it was 2-1 me. I generally don't keep notes besides a Me-You life total pad. I do reveal all three note pages, but they are the same as all the rest from the previous matches. After about thirty seconds of insisting it was 1-1, he remembers the match he lost and apologizes. Has something like this ever happened to you guys?
3-1-1

Round 6... or was it 7? can't recall: Esper Stonebloat.

Game 1: Stoneblade into batterskull into second stoneblade with jitte with force backup. I scoop after the first swing.

Same strategy for sideboarding above except +1 ancient grudge because it is an academy ruin version.

Game 2 and 3 could be switched. I can't recall.

Game 2: Opponent mulls. An extremely well timed explosives allows me prevent my death and kill him with seismic.

Game 3: I take 10 damage from a snapcaster mage while I toy with his mana base, preventing a jitte from coming down. Game gamestate finally comes with me at 2 life and him at 5 life with 2 souls and a jace and him tapped out to my very large crushers. I ignore jace and force blocks and win from there.

Round 6 or 7 (can't recall) : Vial Angel Stompy

Game 1: Opponent proceeds to play vial into mom, which was bolted. I then made a mistake and swung into jotun grunt with my ooze ( I did think about jotun grunt, but I didn't think he played more then 2 in his opening and it looked like he was setting up for a stoneforge mystic in the way he played his lands). He then plays his stoneforge mystic and a serra avenger (my favorite angel :)) and he equips with jitte and sword of feast and famine. I draw maelstrom pulse and died.

-2 goyf +2 grudge

Game 2: This was an extremely long game where I answered his jotun grunts with ooze and equipment with grudge and hit him down to four, but he stabilized with swords (on a crusher that were the size of skyscrapers) and flickerwhisps, thalia and avenger due to two moms on the table. Thalia slowed the game to a crawl. I eventually overtake the game with maelstrom pulse, engineered explosves (which I was saving since my opening hand), and a grim lavamancer.

Game 3: Didn't happen. Deck really can durdle sometimes.
4-1-2

Round 8: I played an invisible opponent that the judge thought wasn't invisbile, but was instead too short to be seen from above the table.

5-1-2

I preferred the ancient grudges and didn't regret having them all day. They were extremely relevant. I hate that the deck can durdle on removal and land and I think it could use a third seismic to finish the game faster in stalemates. I also feel like it needed a maze of ith, but that could be my opinion from dieing to collosus and batterskull with jitte.

[sdematt]

I would never go down to 2 Seismics in a million years, I just love having three far to much.

-Matt

[lavafrogg]

As much as I don't play seismic at all I have to agree that if you play 1 you play at least 3.

[sdematt]

Anyways, I'm going to try playing 3 Chalice in the board over our REB's (or in my case, 2 discard and 1 Crucible of Worlds, since the Crucible is there for the control matchups anyways...).

I'll let y'all know how it goes. Basically, my line of thinking is Chalice comes in during the Stoneblade and RUG Delver/burn/Tempo matchups.

-Matt

[Aggro_zombies]

Anyways, I'm going to try playing 3 Chalice in the board over our REB's (or in my case, 2 discard and 1 Crucible of Worlds, since the Crucible is there for the control matchups anyways...).

I'll let y'all know how it goes. Basically, my line of thinking is Chalice comes in during the Stoneblade and RUG Delver/burn/Tempo matchups.

-Matt
Don't they keep in Spell Snare against you?

[sdematt]

I've asked me Esperblade opponents, and most of them don't seem to be running all 4. And, if they are, they say countering Loam usually isn't worth it, so they cut down on them anyway.

If this is a legitimate boarding strategy, bringing in 2-drops isn't necessarily a bad deal.

-Matt

[ESG]

Seems like they should counter your Bobs, Goyfs, Oozes and possible Grudges unless you're light on land and they're tempoing you to death. Matt, I want your opponents.

Against RUG, Chalice is huge if it resolves, but that deck has too many ways to keep it off the board. I would just run more 1cc removal instead. Chain Lightning.

[sdematt]

Still, there's already enough two drops for them to counter, whether or not they keep them all in or not. They might actually Ponder or something Turn 1, allowing you to gank them on your Turn 2, or they cast something irrelevant, and you gank them.

The part of it I don't like it shutting off YOUR effective removal. Ex. Bolt, Deathmark, Noxious Revival, etc.

-Matt

[Aggro_zombies]

In my experience, Chalice is rarely as crushing against RUG as you want it to be. After the first couple of turns, a lot of their 1cc cards start precipitously losing value, and you simply don't care about them anymore. It's the first 2-3 turns of the game that are the roughest (the place where Stifles and fast beats are the best), and you have better ways to control that than Chalice - more removal, careful fetching, Mox Diamond, etc.

[sdematt]

Most of the RUG decks have dropped their Stifles in favour of other crap. More burn, Spell Pierce, etc. I think Chalice may still be decent.

As well, Esperblade HAS dropped most of their Snares, it wasn't my imagination. Why run Snare when you can run Inquisition, seems to be the general consensus. Most are running 2, and even Delver isn't always playing them (opting for Pierces at times).

Point being? Chalice may actually be decent enough to run. The tricky part comes into play regarding how many of our 1-drops to cut if we are going to bring Chalice in. If Chalice never lands, you don't want to nut yourself by boarding efficient removal out, yet, if it does land and stay, you don't want a hand full of now-useless cards.

-Matt

[sdematt]

So I hear some of y'alls may be going to SCG Phoenix. What are you planning on playing?

-Matt

[Aggro_zombies]

So I hear some of y'alls may be going to SCG Phoenix. What are you planning on playing?

-Matt
My ride just had a change of plans, so barring me being able to set something up tonight, I'll be playing nothing. Assuming I do get up there, though, I'll be playing something similar to what I took to the local event, but with a different spell mix.

[sdematt]

Feel like trying my mix and seeing what you think?

2 Deathmark
2 Terminate
1 Putrefy
3 Lightning Bolt

Plus, you get to see people's faces when you maindeck Deathmark them, and they say, "In the main? What the fuck?" But, then you get to give no fucks, since you're winning :)

-Matt

[Aggro_zombies]

Went 3-3 drop from SCG Phoenix. My matchups were 2-1 Death and Taxes, 0-2 Death and Taxes, 2-0 UR Delver Burn, 2-0 Maverick, 0-2 Antonius on a storm brew, and 0-2 Esper Doomsday. I might do a report later, but I just got home and I'm tired right now.

And no, this is not evidence for needing to "fix the combo matchup," so let's not start that again.

[lavafrogg]

At least you got to play! It was nice to meet you and hopefully I will see you again on may 5th in Tucson! The combo loses are understandable with the list I think you are playing, how did you go 2-3 against death and taxes? That is the part that confuses me!

[Aggro_zombies]

At least you got to play! It was nice to meet you and hopefully I will see you again on may 5th in Tucson! The combo loses are understandable with the list I think you are playing, how did you go 2-3 against death and taxes? That is the part that confuses me!
A combination of bad draws and punting in one of the second round games. I don't remember exactly what happened in round two because I had a raging headache at the time.

[lavafrogg]

Sorry to hear that! The top 8 was just ripe for you to wreck, minus the two combo decks, 6-8 good match-ups would have increased your chances.

[Aggro_zombies]

Sorry to hear that! The top 8 was just ripe for you to wreck, minus the two combo decks, 6-8 good match-ups would have increased your chances.
The field was very stratified, and not in a good way. Once I picked up the loss to Death and Taxes, I dropped into the bracket that seemed to be rife with combo: Sneak-Show, Hive Mind, various flavors of storm, loads of Dredge, and so on. It was only a matter of time before I got ground out.

I'll write up a tournament report later, probably this evening. Round 2 is kind of a blur because my head was about to explode and the round went very quickly (Serra Avengers and Jotun Grunts carry SoLS tends to do that), but I remember the rest of it reasonably well enough.

[Koby]

Yes, I can corroborate the X-1 bracket was brimming with Combo decks. Three people out of my car ended up playing the same Show and Tell/Dream Halls deck. It was very disheartening :(

[Aggro_zombies]

I figured I would write a report for this even though I didn’t really do well (3-3 drop) because, eh, why not. So here it is.

For the few days leading up to the tournament, I waffled really hard on the exact configuration of my Aggro Loam list. I’d played in a local event (going 3-1) but hadn’t been completely happy with my spell configuration or my manabase; despite liking Punishing Fire in my build, I was worried that I was trying to get too clever with it. In particular, in the matchups where I wanted to side out the Fires for various reasons (it was too slow, it didn’t do enough, etc.), I had no way to get rid of the Groves, and Grove without Fire is just terrible. I was also deeply unhappy with Maelstrom Pulse, mostly because the dream two-for-one scenario came up very rarely and you almost always lost on mana or card advantage when you aimed it at something else. So up until the night before the event, my spell slots were constantly changing: Terminate, Putrefies, Pulses, even maindeck Deathmarks. At one point I tried some Lilianas in the main, but after opening a hand of Grove, Mire, Mire, Crusher in my very first test game, I realized that trying to support her was too greedy.

I settled on this maindeck the night before the event:

4 Dark Confidant
3 Tarmogoyf
3 Scavenging Ooze
3 Countryside Crusher
1 Terravore

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Punishing Fire
1 Terminate
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Seismic Assault
4 Life from the Loam

4 Mox Diamond
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Taiga
1 Badlands
1 Bayou
1 Mountain
1 Forest
3 Grove of the Burnwillows

3 Forgotten Cave
3 Tranquil Thicket
3 Wasteland
1 Volrath’s Stronghold

As I wandered around the venue the morning of the event, I became aware of an unpleasant fact: the field was going to be full of dredge. I knew at least six people coming from Tucson with dredge decks, and found four more people testing, sleeving, or registering the deck while I walked in circles. I was worried: would people be switching to more graveyard hate? How was Faithless Dredge different from the dredge lists I’d played against two years ago, when I was last really active in the format? I had coached my friend through some dredge game ones against me the night before and had gotten destroyed each time, but I wasn’t sure if that was because I was telling him exactly the right plays to beat me, or if it was because my deck at the time had Lilis and a shitty manabase, or what. I decided to play it safe, however, and swap out a pair of discard spells for two Tormod’s Crypts, leaving me with the following sideboard:

2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Thoughtseize
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Krosan Grip
2 Devastating Dreams
2 Noxious Revival
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Tormod’s Crypt

In retrospect, this was probably a mistake, since it seemed like many of the dredge players (at least, many of those I knew) got eliminated early on. However, at the time I was pretty worried about it, and despite Antonius’s assurances that he hadn’t lost a sanctioned match to dredge in about as long as I hadn’t played against dredge (years), I decided I was better safe than sorry.

As the event started, I came to realize that the sore spot in my neck I’d woken up with was now blossoming into a full-blown headache, possibly en route to migraine territory. I decided I would drop as soon as colors started doing weird things (always a sure sign of a migraine), but vowed to soldier on until then.

We had 158 (or was it 138?) players, for a total of eight rounds.

Round 1 against Bryce (Death and Taxes)
Game One: I sit down across from a chill-looking gentleman and shuffle up while making some jokes. He wins the roll and elects to play first; my hand has the Punishing Fires combo and a Dark Confidant, so I keep it. He opens with Plains, go, which makes me think “Maverick with a loose keep”, but I quickly realize otherwise when he gets a turn two Leonin Arbiter (buh?). It promptly dies to Fire because I want to fetch. He follows with another one, which also dies to Fire. I eventually cast Bob, who goes farming; I topdeck another one, but he goes farming too. We then enter an awkward (and fifteen-minute-long) period wherein I don’t draw an Assault or a creature and every creature he casts dies to Punishing Fire. I eventually draw Countryside Crusher and reduce him from 30 to zero in two turns.
I decide to sideboard as follows: -Pulse, -Loam, -Terminate, +2 Dreams, +1 Grudge
Game Two: My hand is stacked, so I decide to lead with a turn two Bob. Unfortunately, my opponent has the turn one Wasteland for my turn one Bayou, and I can’t draw a land to save my life for several turns. I eventually get to two mana and cast a succession of Scavenging Oozes and Tarmogoyfs, but they don’t do anything to stop his Vials into Flickerwisps plus Serra Avengers. Apparently nine power in the air is hard to beat when you only have two mana.
Game Three: I don’t remember what I kept, but I do remember him casting a turn one Horizon Canopy into Vial and then not having a land on turn two. I decide to hamstring him on mana and Dreams for one. He limps along with Vial for a while before finally drawing a land to play a second and then third Vial. Unfortunately, I’m not clocking him very quickly; my Tarmogoyf is only a 3/4 and he keeps Vialing in blockers. Eventually I stick a Scavenging Ooze, eat his (very large) graveyard, and kill him.

---

Round one finished just before time was called, but in all fairness, game one took twenty-five very awkward minutes. My headache had been growing all the while, turning from simply a nuisance into a dull, throbbing ache that was making it hard to concentrate. Unfortunately, all my friends were still in the event, so there was no way I could ask someone else to go find some pain medication for me.

---

Round 2 against Robb (Death and Taxes)
To be honest, this round is kind of a blur. Robb has a better build than Bryce, dropping the terrible hatebears for Mirran Crusaders and what seems like a Stoneforge Package. I have a Punishing Fire to curtain some of his game one shenanigans, but he Wastes my Grove and then eats me alive with a Jotun Grunt followed by Serra Avengers. I sideboard the same as previously. Game two I don’t see nearly enough spot removal, hold my Devastating Dreams for way too long (for reasons I can’t remember), and I die to a Crusader with a Jitte. It turns out pro: green is some good against a Tarmogoyf wall.

---

By this time, the pain had wrapped around from the back of my head, a single raging ache that went from my right eye to back behind my right ear. I’m not sure if it was exacerbated by the fact that I was mildly tilted about losing to a creature deck, annoyed with myself for punting game two, or that it was actually just getting worse, but regardless, I was now in actual pain by the time pairings for round three went up.

---

Round 3 versus Donald (UR Delver Burn)
I know Donald from the store closest to my apartment in Tucson; he’s a great player and a pretty nice guy, and between my headache and his rating, I’m worried that I’ll be 1-2 drop by the end of this. Luckily for me, that’s not how it works out.
Game One: He opens with Delver; I open with Bolt. He follows with Goblin Guide, who works my life total but thankfully gives me lands. I slowly build up a board (fighting through counters as I go), and by the time my opponent’s Goblin Guide gains a happy little friend, I’ve got a grip full of removal and dudes. I stabilize on five and demolish him with Assault.
I sideboard as follows: -1 Terminate, -1 Pulse, +2 Noxious Revival
Game Two: My opponent opens with a dead Delver into Goblin Guide (again), while I open on removal into Scavenging Ooze. I lose my Loams to a Surgical, and then lose my Fires when I try to recur one on his EoT, but at that point it’s not really relevant; he looks at my hand and get a peek at Terravore and a Crusher, and his follow-up play of Sulferic Vortex turns out to be The Goggles. He scoops once it becomes clear I’m about to kill him with Terravore.

---

The third round ended quickly enough, but I couldn’t remember if we’d passed any drugstores or supermarkets on the way in. The concession stand in the lobby didn’t have any Tylenol (of course), and neither did the card dealers. One of my friends had scrubbed out, but didn’t have any pain medication on him. Desperate, I walked up to the registration/main booth and asked them, operating under the assumption that there should be a first aid station and that said station should have pain medication. There apparently wasn’t such a thing, but one of the people working the booth just so happened to have some Aleve, so I gratefully took some and waited for it to kick in (which it dutifully did right before round four started).

---

Round 4 against Ryan (GWu Maverick)
Ryan is another local player, also a nice guy with an impressive skill set. I receive word that he’s on dredge (ugh) and sit down to discover that there are dredge vs. X matchups raging for several tables to either side of me. Fun!
Game One: My opponent shuffles up and opens with Windswept Heath (sweet!) into GSZ for Dryad Arbor. I open with a Bolt on the Arbor on my turn and assemble the Punishing Grove combo to keep his board clear of little utility guys. He sticks a Knight with a Jitte, but I manage to whittle down his mana to just a Horizon Canopy and a Wasteland, and stick a Seismic Assault just as I’m about to die. The three Loams I’ve accumulated kill his Knight and then kill him.
I sideboard as follows: -1 Terminate, -1 Pulse, -1 Loam, +2 Dreams, +1 Grudge
Game Two: My opponent goes for the turn one Arbor again, and I have the turn one removal spell again. He uses Enlightened Tutor to fetch up a Relic of Progenitus, but I keep a steady stream of lands going to my graveyard to mitigate its tap ability. We trade removal for a while, but eventually I stick a Crusher, who promptly gets very large and then finds himself joined by a second Crusher. My opponent scoops. During de-sideboarding, he reveals that he has 1 Tropical Island and brought in Submerge against me. Interesting.

---

My headache was now gone and I felt good about dodging combo matchups so far. The tournament had taken on a layered structure by this point: the top tables were relatively diverse, but just underneath them was a large cap of scary-looking non-interactives. I figured it was only a matter of time until the cap either dropped to where I was, or until I ran into it. When the pairings for round four went up and I saw a familiar name, I realized the reckoning had come.

---

Round 5 versus Antonius (UB Storm Brew)
I’d met Tony (a pretty cool guy) the day before when I was watching the Legacy Challenge side event. He had wanted to sleeve up Aggro Loam for the event, but a friend had borrowed his Wooded Foothills and was nowhere to be found until a few minutes before the player’s meeting. In the Challenge event, Tony played an interesting-looking storm brew that ran maindeck Snapcasters alongside Cabal Therapy; I was incredulous, but it seemed to perform well. This was the brew against which I was now paired.
Game One: I do some stuff but do not apply nearly enough pressure. I die to a storm chain.
I sideboard as follows: -1 Pulse, -1 Terminate, -2 Punishing Fire, -1 Loam, +2 Inquisition, +1 Thoughtseize, +2 Surgicals.
Game Two: I keep a hand with Inquisition, Loam, Surgical, and some mana. It lacks pressure, but between the discard spell and the Extraction, I figure I have a few turns to draw into something. I Inquisition him and see a hand with Ad Nauseam (his only one) and some other stuff, and take...a card I don’t remember (I didn’t write it down). He goes for a nonbasic into Brainstorm and I Wasteland him in response. What follows is an awkward dance, wherein I draw stone nothing and he’s mana-screwed. I eventually Thoughtseize his Ad Noz, but I still can’t find something to clock him (hello infinite mana draw), but he rips a second LED and goes for it. I die to an IGG loop.

---

Bad beats. Tony assured me that X-2 still had a good shot at prize and maybe even a top 8 slot, although I was certain my tiebreakers were not nearly good enough for that. Still, a top 16 finish would be worth it, so I decided to soldier on to see if I could get there.

---

Round 6 against Lowell (Esper Doomsday)
Game One: My opponent opens with Strand into a blue/x dual and a Brainstorm, which makes me think he’s on Esper Stoneblade, but then he follows his Brainstorm with a Ponder and I become confused. Ponder doesn’t usually see play outside of RUG and combo, but combo these days doesn’t usually play white...does it? I don’t really keep track of combo lists because it’s not a deck type that really appeals to me, so I’m not motivated to learn it...but at the same time, unless he’s on a bad Stoneblade list, there’s no other reason he’d be playing Ponder. I start to get That Sinking Feeling, the one you get when you realize you’re about to scrub out. Sure enough, my opponent goes off a couple turns later, and a cracked LED reveals a pair of Doomsdays. Well, I know jack about Doomsday, so I guess that explains it. On to the next game!
I sideboard as follows: -1 Terminate, -1 Pulse, -2 Fire, -1 Loam, -1 Assault, +2 Inquisition, +1 Thoughtseize, +3 Surgical.
Game Two: This game is pretty unexciting. My opponent Doomsdays into a combo kill and I drop. Ah well.

---

I wandered around a bit afterwards because my ride had joined the Draft Open while I’d been playing, and I was now waiting for him rather than the other way around. The meta had condensed quite a bit: many of the fair decks and a lot of the dredge players were gone at the start of round seven, and it seemed like most of what was left consisted of combo and L.A. players. I watched a couple of rounds, but none of them were particularly interesting: flipped Delvers doing what flipped Delvers do, 12/12 Grave-Trolls mauling people, Sneak Attacks making Noodly Monsters, that sort of thing. I sold off some of my Legacy staples to an L.A. vendor (mtgdeals.com, for those interested). I bought some EDH cards, both to pimp out existing decks and to help build new ones. I wandered back over to Tony’s table in the middle of round eight to discover him paired against the Esper player I lost to in round six, and decided to watch some hilariously exciting games that eventually ended in a...well, I don’t want to steal Tony’s thunder, since I think he’s writing a report. My friends both scrubbed out of the draft open and we left to eat some delicious pork tenderloin (courtesy of my ride’s mother) and head back to Tucson.

In retrospect, Aggro Loam was not as optimal a choice as I’d thought it would be. Following a top eight overflowing with RUG decks, I expected people to show up with Maverick and similar fair decks, and to stay off of combo. In fact, the opposite happened: a lot of RUG did well this time, and a lot of combo did well, too. I guess the West Coast is a pretty combo-heavy metagame? I know Sneak-Show and Dredge are both popular in Tucson. Either way, Aggro Loam’s prey matchups dried up pretty quickly after the first few rounds, and I would have eventually lost out to things I couldn’t beat even with a full set of five discard spells in the sideboard. On the plus side, I did get to meet Koby, Antonius, lavafrogg, and Que, who are all interesting people who unfortunately live too far away from me.

So yeah, that’s a wrap. I picked up a couple of important things from this tournament:

I’m still really on the fence about Punishing Fire. I liked it when I had it, but the x/3 and x/4 guys in the two DnT matchups gave me fits. I could easily see cutting Fires for more removal, but none of the other options in that category really excite me.
Maelstrom Pulse is easily the worst card in the deck. It’s just very bad at doing anything you want it to do...the problem is, because it does everything, there’s not really a very clean substitute for it. If you want to hit equipment, the next best card is Ancient Grudge, and that’s not really maindeckable. If you want to kill creatures, there’s Deathmark, Ghastly Demise, Terminate, and a bunch of other cards that are depressingly bad because they aren’t StP. If you want to kill planeswalkers...well, there’s burn spells, but Jace and Elspeth both move out of easy burn range when you activate their plus abilities. Pulse is less situational than another removal spell but pays for it by being embarrassing at everything it does.
Terminate is not far behind Pulse in the “being bad” category. Two mana is not where you want to be. You often lose on mana, and even when killing two-drops you often lose on value because of all the CiP abilities creatures have these days. Being an instant and having no targeting restrictions attracted me to it, but the card is just very meh.
I’m once again dissatisfied with how durdly the deck can be. Several of the games I lost were to just not being able to find the right cards, and having to make painful choices about whether or not I had the time to dredge into and then recur them. The deck really needs something else to be good, but I don’t know what it is. Sylvan Libraries might have been the answer for my build, but they’re competing with removal, albeit bad removal. The problem is, if I cut Terminate and Pulse for 2 Library, I have no way to kill large creatures in the main.
There were plenty of times where I just wanted to cut the Loam engine and play some sort of Jund control deck with fewer mana sources. I feel like Loam, as both a card and a strategy, is bad for a couple reasons: relying on it too heavily opens you up to Surgical-based blowouts, removing Loam improves your draws by cutting down on how much mana you have, removing Loam allows you to do real things instead of durdling with cycle to draw or Wasteland, dredge, Wasteland. Most of the games I won this weekend involved Loam only tangentially, and once I won without even having them in my deck (hi, Surgical); in many of the games I lost, Loam, Moxen, and all those lands were so much dead weight that stood between me and the cards that mattered. Loam is powerful in theory, but I don’t think it’s nearly as good in practice.


We’ll see where the meta goes once Avacyn Restored hits, but unless it makes Maverick both ridiculously powerful and ridiculously good against combo, I don’t foresee this deck continuing to be a good choice. It really hasn’t aged well since the last time I picked it up two years ago, which is kind of depressing since I like it a lot. I’m not sure what they could print to revitalize it: probably a black StP, a cheap red or green planeswalker, and maybe something else that synergizes with Loam without relying too heavily on Loam (and thereby introducing the old Survival of the Fittest conundrum where Survival decks built too heavily to rely on Survival completely fell apart without their namesake card).

[Ziveeman]

Hey you never got to meet me D: Come and say hi sometime at an event, I don't think I'm that hard to spot, there's two of me :D Oh also, Lowell is Mostly_Harmless on here. He's the resident storm player up here in Phoenix.

Where did you play for the local event? Showtime or Amazing D? Or some magical place I hadn't heard of?

[Aggro_zombies]

Hey you never got to meet me D: Come and say hi sometime at an event, I don't think I'm that hard to spot, there's two of me :D Oh also, Lowell is Mostly_Harmless on here. He's the resident storm player up here in Phoenix.

Where did you play for the local event? Showtime or Amazing D? Or some magical place I hadn't heard of?
Amazing D. Showtime isn't within walking distance, so I can't be bothered to go there.

[razvan]

Well, it was a good fight. Damn Antonius… switched to storm because he couldn’t find foothills, eh? :P

Lightning Bolt is really where you need to be at the moment. It just does so much more without making your mana base ridiculous. There is only so many Taiga variants you can support and you cannot cut down actual Taigas. EE is still good, Pulse is bad but necessary. Terminate and Ghastly Demise, I never was a big fan of. Deathmark is interesting, but it cannot kill Delver, Guide, Bobs, Snapcasters and a lot of little crap that will make your life hell. It can kill Knights and Goyfs though, which Bolt is bad at. Eh.

You only really dredge for 2 reasons: Seismic or Wasteland. It’s a pain in the ass to dredge just for a cycle-land. Yes, you maintain card-parity, but you spend 3 mana. Bad. I try to dredge as little as possible. Sometimes, I cut a Loam when I sideboard stuff, in order to make them over-estimate how much the deck needs Loam. It does not.

I also thought about jund, but losing loam and mox diamond can be an issue.

I like Liliana. I really like her, she is so good whenever I draw her. I seem to be one of the few, but I still like her. The new red cheap planeswalker is bad though, so we are probably not getting anything good in Avacyn.

I don’t think our deck needs to age well, because it doesn’t need to change that much. We are removal, good creatures, and good card advantage.

I am gonna play it again this weekend with 3 Lilianas and 6 sideboard discard. Hopefully it will work out 

[lavafrogg]

You could always be like me and play 6 discard and 3 Lilly's main deck!
Jokes aside, Lilliana is the absolute nuts in a loam deck, she does everything we need a card to do and her ultimate just causes scoops. One an opponent realizes that they get no hand and no creatures for the rest of her existence.... Things look pretty grim.

She is in my vindicate/pulse slot and pridemages take care or artifacts/enchantments. The only card type I cannot directly deal with is other planeswalkers but so far discard+land destruction+dudes have been enough to keep walkers off the table.

Even with 6 main deck discard spells and 3 Lilliana's, 1-2 hate cards are needed from the side. I have GSZ for teeg and a meta dependent 3-of. With that hate package the most important part of the game is landing the early goyf to make sure they cannot recover.

[Aggro_zombies]

Lili wrecks the mana. I like Punishing Fires because it clears out the shitty guys so Lili's -2 actually has some bite, but the mana can't support Groves and the ability to hit BB before, say, turn five.

As for the discard, meh. I like discard in decks with less mana and faster clocks.

[lavafrogg]

I said," be like me", which would imply that you dropped red altogether to play white and a heavie black mana base. If combo is something you are worried about, and you still want to play loam, it is proably the safest bet outside of mainboard discard and chalice(which I wouldn't recommend).

It has been stated before that the red version with assault has better matchups with certain decks than the white version, but as time goes on the differences are becoming smaller and smaller as the white version evolves.

And with discard, I don't think I could ever play a deck that could not interact with either blue or black disruption. As fun as "dumb" aggro decks are I feel that letting your opponent do whatever they want and then trying to answer is a scary feeling.

[Oxmo39]

Lavafrogg, your bgw list really intrigues me...would you mind sharing it ?

[Aggro_zombies]

Lavafrogg, your bgw list really intrigues me...would you mind sharing it ?
It's here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?21143-Junk-AggroDirt

[lavafrogg]

Right now my list is up in the rock thread and my own junk thread(that noone ever goes into). Unless discussion takes off in the thread about gbw I will leave it over there. The aggro loam thread usually devolves into a "discard is bad" and "you need to play red" whirlwind, that I try to stay out of for the most part;)

Thank you for your interest though! I look forward to your input over there!

P.S. AggroZombies is so leet! He beat me too it!

[razvan]

So I played this weekend in a 40man event. Basically the changes from my previous deck:

+1 Liliana (to 3)
-1 Pulse (to 1)

These were the games:

R1: Matt with Stoneblade. W2-1, Matt conceded with enough time to draw because he was in a worse position.
R2: Tim with Stoneblade. W2-1
R3: Adam with ANT. W2-1, there was not much science with this, Adam got very unlucky, and as did I. He was short of killing me G3 by ANY card off his Ad Nauseum, and he hit his 2nd instead of anything else.
R4: Steve Wolfman, RUG Delver, W2-0
R5: ID with Galen, Painter
R6: ID with Ben, Sneak and Show

Top8: Harant with Stoneblade. L1-2

Harant uses Invisible Stalkers. Hexproof. Ugh.

So this was the most frustrating match ever. I win game one off a turn 2 Terravore. He counters my ooze, and I draw only land for the rest of the game. But, he cannot kill the Terravore that ends up being 9/9 or 10/10.

G2, I don't remember much. He was pretty behind, but I hit a stream of ONLY lands and Mox Diamonds, allowing him to come back. He counters like one or two spells all game.

G3 is even worse. He keeps a hand with plains, mishra's, and no islands.

Me:

Turn 1: Bob. Swords to Plowshares.
Turn 2: Bob. Swords to Plowshares.
Turn 3: Terravore. Swords to Plowshares.

Him:

Turn 4: Cast Invisible Stalker, with me at 25 life.
Turn 13: Cast 2nd Invisible Stalker, with me at 16 life.
Turn 18: Cast 3rd Invisible Stalker, with me at 8 life.

He countered one spell from Turn 3, and I drew only fetches, mana lands, a couple of wastelands, mox diamonds, and 2 thoughtseize, which would have been great it i drew anything.

By the end, my deck was like 30 cards or so, like 25 non-land.

Yeah.

[Aggro_zombies]

Sounds like bad beats. Aggro Loam has some pretty shitty draws sometimes.

[razvan]

Ok, so I am going to try this next time:

4 Dark Confidant
4 Scavenging Ooze
3 Terravore
1 Grim Lavamancer

3 Liliana of the Veil

4 Thoughtseize
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Life from the Loam
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Sylvan Library

4 Mox Diamond
4 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Tranquil Thicket
2/3 Barren Moor
2/3 Bayou
2 Badlands
2 Taiga
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Volrath's Stronghold

Sideboard
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Ancient Grudge
3 Thoughtseize
3 Devastating Dreams
2 Something else

Might be a mistake. It's not really aggro loam anymore that much. More like Control Loam. But since there is no thread on that anymore...

[Aggro_zombies]

Not running Seismic Assault strikes me as the mistake. There is not a whole lot of reason to run Life from the Loam as an engine if you can't kill people with it. Can you drop EE and then add a Fire-Lit Thicket and/or Graven Cairns?

[trivial_matters]

Not running Seismic Assault strikes me as the mistake. There is not a whole lot of reason to run Life from the Loam as an engine if you can't kill people with it. Can you drop EE and then add a Fire-Lit Thicket and/or Graven Cairns?

Agreed on Seismic Assault. 4 Ooze seems too many. Why not play some Goyfs instead?

Was the reason you picked Terravore over Crusher mainly because of trample? I've only ever played Crusher and he may be a bit clunky sometimes, but all in all I think he's very good in Aggro Loam.

EDIT: You have 7 Thoughtseizes in your list.

[Aggro_zombies]

Agreed on Seismic Assault. 4 Ooze seems too many. Why not play some Goyfs instead?

Was the reason you picked Terravore over Crusher mainly because of trample? I've only ever played Crusher and he may be a bit clunky sometimes, but all in all I think he's very good in Aggro Loam.

EDIT: You have 7 Thoughtseizes in your list.
Trample is pretty good on Terravore. That said, the card filtering from Crusher is pretty nice.

There are a lot of matchups where Ooze does good work. That said, I think the upper limit is three of them - there are plenty of times where you'd have a 3/4 or 4/5 Goyf but only have a 3/3 or 2/2 Ooze because there's no fodder for him. They also have serious diminishing returns in multiples.

[trivial_matters]

There are a lot of matchups where Ooze does good work. That said, I think the upper limit is three of them - there are plenty of times where you'd have a 3/4 or 4/5 Goyf but only have a 3/3 or 2/2 Ooze because there's no fodder for him. They also have serious diminishing returns in multiples.

Yeah, Ooze undoubtedly has many, many uses but in various situations Goyf is still better, for example to stall in the early game. And as you pointed out, Ooze gets much worse in multiples, whereas Goyf doesn't.

EDIT: Aggro Loam should be seeing more play at the moment, since I reckon it has good matchups against Thresh (Wasteland in conjuction with Loam wrecks their mana base and they can't get rid of a resolved Crusher provided you play around Bolt) and Maverick (with additional hate in the board, such as Virtue's Ruin/Perish). Stoneblade doesn't seem too bad either. I'm wondering why, but as far as I know this deck was never really popular, right? The lack of tournament results has to do with the fact that not many people are playing it.

Lastly, I have a question for Antonius: Why are you not playing Virtue's Ruin over Perish? Seems equally useful against Maverick yet doesn't kill your own Goyfs and Oozes.

[sdematt]

The only reason I can think: In LA, seems to be a lot of combo Elves, or for killing Mongeese.

-Matt

[razvan]

Agreed on Seismic Assault. 4 Ooze seems too many. Why not play some Goyfs instead?

Was the reason you picked Terravore over Crusher mainly because of trample? I've only ever played Crusher and he may be a bit clunky sometimes, but all in all I think he's very good in Aggro Loam.

EDIT: You have 7 Thoughtseizes in your list.
Wow.

I have decided cheating is the best way moving forward.

Stupid headache :(. Maindeck should be 4x Inquisition of Kozilek.

Yes, Terravore is because of the Trample, and the fact that he arrives big. Either is a fine choice.

I wanted to move away from heavy red, especially RRR. I find myself never really needing Seismic Assault. When it resolves, it's awesome, when it doesn't, it's still ok. It's just too big, and arrives too late, and is too easily disrupted by most things.

4 Ooze is amazing. I want goyfs, but there is just no space. Maybe the Inquisitions should be goyfs, but I think Ooze is nothing but amazing. It is rarely a turn 1/2 play if they can bolt it, but otherwise, it goes out pretty quicky.

Maybe 3 Ooze, but I don't know, I have been nothing but happy with 4 Oozes.

I might try 4 Goyfs instead of IoK.

[Aggro_zombies]

I was happy-ish with a 3-3 Ooze-Goyf split, and even then I felt like Ooze occasionally showed up too often. Your mileage does appear to vary, though.

I say "keep Assault" mostly because there's no reason to hobble yourself by being a Loam deck unless the payoff is pretty big, and Assault is one of those ways. I mean, the best uses of Life from the Loam are, in order:

1) Assault
2) Wastelock
3) Reusing fetchlands
4) Showing your opponent information about your deck
5) Drawing cards

Numbers two and three can be accomplished with 1-2 Loams and an infinitely better ratio of mana to spells. Number five is pretty terrible, since trading a mana and a card in hand for a random card on the top of your library is not hot in a deck with 50% lands/Mox Diamonds, and it's even less hot when you don't have Crushers to buff through doing so. I get that there's some synergy with Liliana, but I would ask at what cost: her +1 is not amazing, her -2 is so-so, and really, "You sacrifice a guy and send a couple of creatures Lili's way" is not what I want to be doing. You have plenty of ways to grind people out going long - too many, in fact. What you don't have is a medium-term game plan or early-game consistency. If not supported well enough, Loam can be an active hindrance to developing either of those.

[bfeingersh]

Here's the RUG Aggro Loam deck I've been working on. Strongly considering bringing it to SCG Providence in 2 weeks assuming nothing huge in AVR shakes up the format before then.

Creatures:
1 Terravore
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Tarmogoyf

Enchantments:
2 Exploration
3 Seismic Assault

Artifacts:
4 Mox Diamond
2 Engineered Explosives

Sorceries:
4 Life from the Loam
1 Forked Bolt

Instants:
3 Lightning Bolt
4 Punishing Fire
3 Intuition

Lands:
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
2 Taiga
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Academy Ruins
3 Tranquil Thicket
3 Forgotten Cave
4 Wasteland

Sideboard (Tentative):
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Flusterstorm
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Devastating Dreams
3 Noxious Revival

Looking for any feedback. Intuition has been awesome, it allows you to fill in the holes in your engine (Loam/Cycling lands, Grove/Fire, Ruins/EE) or just find a win condition.

[trivial_matters]

Aggro Loam wrecks RUG; I almost feel sorry for them. I just played about 7 rounds consecutively against RUG and practically the only way they can win is with a fast start with multiple Delvers.

[sdematt]

Were your opponents bad? I've found my opponents to always be on the "Daze you, Spell Pierce you, Spell Snare you, Force that, Tarmogoyf, kill you" plan. This is a plan I'm not a fan of, since post-board, they also Submerge.

I'm not saying I haven't won many games against RUG, but they has so many free things. Ugh.

-Matt

[trivial_matters]

Were your opponents bad? I've found my opponents to always be on the "Daze you, Spell Pierce you, Spell Snare you, Force that, Tarmogoyf, kill you" plan. This is a plan I'm not a fan of, since post-board, they also Submerge.

I'm not saying I haven't won many games against RUG, but they has so many free things. Ugh.

-Matt

I played repeatedly against one person only. He appeared to be running a stock RUG list.

Their counterspells and especially Daze are a pain in the ass, but you have the inevitability if you can make it through the early game. Engineered Explosives (this card has been great for me in general) is useful for getting rid of Mongoose and Lightning Bolt kills Delver.

Post board, you have some number of REBs/Pyroblasts to help you. Also, if you have at least one Mox out you can, to a certain extent, play around Submerge.

For reference, I'm testing Antonius' list with Virtue's Ruin instead of Perish.

[Antonius]

^^

yeah, things usually play out that way. Thresh is definitely a lose-able matchup but for the most part it's favored on our end.

[Anarky87]

RUG was the one deck I lost a round to in our local tourney. Game 1 I had turn 1 Crusher, which got bolted, then turn 2 I ran out double Confidant, which got forked bolt and then I drew umpteen land and died. Game 2 I had to mull to 5 and he had the 'counter everything you play, ride my 1 mongoose to victory' hand. So sometimes the draws can kinda screw you hard. Though getting to burn out a burn player with 12 to the face was pretty satisfying.

[razvan]

I replaced the 4 IoK MD with 3 Goyfs and 1 Sylvan Library.

Tomorrow, we shall see how it goes!

[CookedChestnuts]

I replaced the 4 IoK MD with 3 Goyfs and 1 Sylvan Library.

Tomorrow, we shall see how it goes!

Aggro Loam wins again...

[sdematt]

4 Dark Confidant
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Terravore
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Countryside Crusher


4 Mox Diamond
4 Life from the Loam
3 Seismic Assault


4 Lightning Bolt
2 Sylvan Library
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Deathmark
2 Terminate

3 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
3 Tranquil Thicket
3 Forgotten Cave
1 Bayou
2 Badlands
3 Taiga
2 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Barbarian Ring


My numbers are off since I'm not at home looking at the list, and it's been a while since I played it, but I'm going to try to squeeze in 2 Faithless Looting.

-Matt

[razvan]

So this is a mini-report from my tournament:

R1: 2-0 DJ with UR Delver
R2: 2-0 Mike with RUG Delver
R3: 2-0 Chris Szafran with RUG Delver
R4/5: ID

Top-8: 0-2 to Szafran again

Game 2, he had 4 3/3 Mongeese, and he kept topdecking Submerges for my Ooze, and I only had 2 land. Despite that, had I drawn a forest, bayou or taiga that last turn, or ANY land on before turns, I would have pulled it out.

I had a bit of bad luck this round, and he had bad luck in our round 3 match, so it kinda evens it out.

Also, Delvers and Goyfs are so much less important than Mongeese. God-damn!

I will paste my list later, but it had 4 Ooze, 3 Terravore, 3 Goyf, 3 Liliana. I like that combination.

[Facethemindsculptor]

So I won, the Starcitygames open, two weeks ago.

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=45962

[sdematt]

Congrats, Dave.

How long have you been playing Loam? did you get any idea from this thread?

-Matt

[Aggro_zombies]

So I won, the Starcitygames open, two weeks ago.

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=45962
How are Faithless Lootings for you? In particular, how are they in the first 2-3 turns of the game? Did you ever test them in conjunction with Sylvan Libraries?

[Antonius]

@David: Playing faithless looting in the lavamancer slot seems very interesting. I'm so attached to my lavamancers that I'd have a hard time making that subsitution but it seems to have worked out for you.

What's the darkblast and grudges for in the sideboard? Was firespout better than perish?

[Richard Cheese]

I've got two words that will change the future of this deck, and possibly the Legacy format:

Orcish Lumberjack.

[trivial_matters]

Any ideas on how to combat the Sneak Attack/Show and Tell decks which are bound to pick up in popularity?

REBs and Pyroblasts in the SB counter Show and Tell but they play lots of counters too. Mana denial only works so far because they have enough basics, Lotus Petal and can drop a Tomb or City of Traitors on the critical turn.

[Aggro_zombies]

Any ideas on how to combat the Sneak Attack/Show and Tell decks which are bound to pick up in popularity?

REBs and Pyroblasts in the SB counter Show and Tell but they play lots of counters too. Mana denial only works so far because they have enough basics, Lotus Petal and can drop a Tomb or City of Traitors on the critical turn.
I've found discard spells are generally better than Blasts versus Sneak-Show. It's pretty frustrating to keep a Blast shield up only to have them use some Lotus Petals to hardcast Sneak Attack and then own you.

I kind of want to run a package of Thoughtseize and Duress to combat decks like that (since Duress is generally better than IoK against Show and Tell decks), but honestly it's not a very good matchup. You need to have a very aggressive start backed up by at least a couple discard spells, which might be consistently doable for a more traditional Jund deck, but not Aggro Loam.

[sdematt]

Any combo deck can be hindered by discard + surgical extraction. Combo is not our best matchup, let's put it that way. Revoker would be fine to combat Sneak Attack/Griselbrand, but you can't win them all.

-Matt

[bradstone]

So what are people's thought on faithless looting? Is it godly in this deck or what? I haven't gotten a chance to test it out yet. I was going to run them as a 3 of this past Sunday at my store but I decided more creatures and instead threw in kitchen finks. He wasn't spectacular, but I still went 3-1 with my only loss being to manaless dredge (didn't think anyone was dredging that day and had no GY hate) and got some credit

[Aggro_zombies]

So what are people's thought on faithless looting? Is it godly in this deck or what? I haven't gotten a chance to test it out yet. I was going to run them as a 3 of this past Sunday at my store but I decided more creatures and instead threw in kitchen finks. He wasn't spectacular, but I still went 3-1 with my only loss being to manaless dredge (didn't think anyone was dredging that day and had no GY hate) and got some credit
I'm undecided on it.

The card sees play in the Modern versions of the deck because they don't have access to either cycling lands or Sylvan Library, making Looting the next best thing. Of course, the Legacy version of the deck runs cycling lands and probably should run Sylvan Library, but Looting isn't clearly worse than either of those.

On the cycling land side, it doesn't work that well with Loam (I mean, you can painlessly pitch lands and stuff, but you could mostly do that anyway given how many you run) and can only be used twice per copy. At the same time, your opponents aren't likely to waste a Surgical or Ooze activation on your in-graveyard Looting, so you will likely get both castings out of it.

On the Library side, it doesn't provide long-term, recurring card advantage and doesn't enable as much dredge shenanigans. At the same time, it does allow you to filter dead cards out of your hand, isn't subject to anti-enchantment cards, and does actually draw the cards without a life cost.

On the one hand, I don't really think this deck needs what is essentially a glorified - and even then, not very good - cantrip. But on the other hand, there's definitely been situations, particularly in the midgame, where the deck will start to shit on me and I'll draw a bunch of lands and Mox Diamonds in a row and then lose. I feel like Looting would be a good card to have in those situations, but I don't know if it pulls its weight enough elsewhere to justify the slots. I'd have to test it, but I'm kind of down on this deck right now so I'm not really motivated to do so.

[bradstone]

I'm looking for some advice on my current build of this deck. For a while I was doing chalice, burning wish, and devastating dreams build but it fell to slow and inconsistent, especially if I didn't get a turn 1 diamond. After reading this thread and checking out the recent builds that have topped I've come to this.

Creatures:
4 Dark Confidant
3 Tarmogoyf
3 Countryside Crusher
2 Scavenging Ooze

Instants:
4 Lightning Bolt

Sorcery:
4 Life From the Loam
1 Maelstrom Pulse

Artifact:
4 Mox Diamond
2 Engineered Explosives

Plainswalker:
2 Liliana of The Veil

Enchantment:
3 Seismic Assault

4 Wasteland
4 Forgotten Cave
1 Tranquil Thicket
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
2 Badlands
1 Bayou
3 Taiga
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Barbarian Ring

If you count that list its only 57 cards because as of right now I've got 3 spots I can't figure out what to put in them. The last two weeks I've tried Kitchen Finks and Grim Lavamancer as a 3 of.

Finks was solid, I liked having more beaters and his recursion/lifegain was always really good but he didn't have a whole lot of synergy with the deck

Lavamancer I felt was awful almost everytime I saw him, he went against pretty much all the cards in the deck as there's never really anything I want to remove from my graveyard.

Some other cards that I want to try out are Faithless Looting and Thoughtsieze, or try and find some other creatures that work well to be more aggressive (that aren't terravore). Faithless looting seems solid in mid to late game as aggro zombies points out but I'm not sure how well it'll play in the first few turns. Thoughtsieze also feels nice (I like it more than IoK) but I also feel fine running it out of the board.


TL;DR: What should I put in my 3 flex spots

[Aggro_zombies]

TL;DR: What should I put in my 3 flex spots
1 Scavenging Ooze, and possibly 2 Faithless Looting. Also consider adding a Graven Cairns to the manabase.

[Antonius]

Lavamancer I felt was awful almost everytime I saw him, he went against pretty much all the cards in the deck as there's never really anything I want to remove from my graveyard.

Incorrect. Lightning Bolt, Maelstrom Pulse, EE and Seismic Assault don't do anything in your graveyard. You're not running Volrath's so creatures in your graveyard don't do anything either. Hell, the lands in your graveyard don't do anything unless you have Loam. And if you have loam going and you're feeding useful lands to Lavamancer then you're probably playing against a deck composed of X/2 dorks and you're winning really hard.


TL;DR: What should I put in my 3 flex spots

A land that cycles. Basic swamp and barbarian ring both seem terrible. If you insist on playing Liliana, then I'd suggest:

+1 Tranquil Thicket
+1 Graven Cairns
-1 Swamp
-1 Ring
+1 Badlands
+1 Fetchland

+1 most effective removal for your meta (Forked Bolt, EE or Maelstrom) or Sylvan Library

[Hanni]

But on the other hand, there's definitely been situations, particularly in the midgame, where the deck will start to shit on me and I'll draw a bunch of lands and Mox Diamonds in a row and then lose. I feel like Looting would be a good card to have in those situations, but I don't know if it pulls its weight enough elsewhere to justify the slots.

If you did some brainstorming, I'm sure you'd come up with a solution.