[Deck] Aggro Loam

[Kich867]

Bakada, have you ever tried dropping two lands for two Sylvan Library? I made a build that ran them and the card was wildly powerful in it, and I genuinely don't believe you need 26 lands + 4 moxen. 24 + 4 is fine.

[bakada]

Bakada, have you ever tried dropping two lands for two Sylvan Library? I made a build that ran them and the card was wildly powerful in it, and I genuinely don't believe you need 26 lands + 4 moxen. 24 + 4 is fine.

I have been toying with that idea for sure... I tend to like my mana base but maybe ill try dropping my basic for a 1 of sylvan library, thanks for the input!

[FlyingSkull13]

After playing with the deck for last couple of weeks, i believe we need to have REB in the sideboard to give a shot vs the show and tell decks, also how do you guys deal with Bug, and RUG not delver but the midrange value town

[sdematt]

After playing with the deck for last couple of weeks, i believe we need to have REB in the sideboard to give a shot vs the show and tell decks, also how do you guys deal with Bug, and RUG not delver but the midrange value town

I haven't played Loam in a while, or against BUG Midrange, but I'm assuming your plan is stick Seismic assault to take out their little dudes, then land a Terravore and muck their face.

You're the control deck here, of course.

-Matt

[Petree]

After playing with the deck for last couple of weeks, i believe we need to have REB in the sideboard to give a shot vs the show and tell decks, also how do you guys deal with Bug, and RUG not delver but the midrange value town


It really depends on what build you have. If you have chalice main then you already give BUG a seriously tough time because everything aggro loam does is a threat. The only thing the deck can't really deal with is an active Jace. If you have chalice coming from the side then it's accurate to say yes play rebs bc your main should be playing 4 DRS. Now, if your kind of playing the newer build with punishing fire and you play tight enough your pretty good against most blue midrange decks. Show n Tell decks will always be a tough match-up for any aggro deck. That's where Jeff Hooglands list kind of gains the advantage. I wouldn't say his list is "aggro" loam but it has all the same stuff in it. His list is actually much better against show n tell decks because he plays knights and bring in creatures like Thalia. Against RUG you should never have a bad match-up lol.... No one is really playing aggro loam but in some ways it's a healthy deck to play.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Im new to this deck, for someone in a meta populated with fair aggro decks, show and tell and U/W Miracles, is Normal aggro loam better or 4 color?

[Petree]

Im new to this deck, for someone in a meta populated with fair aggro decks, show and tell and U/W Miracles, is Normal aggro loam better or 4 color?


Um well it's actually uo to your personal preference. The traditional build of aggro loam is very aggressive and fast which JUND builds tend to be. The 4 color loam gives you access to Knight of The reliquary and more options if you run a wish board. 4 color has had Swords of Plowshare in there before. The 4 color loam is also more control style, it's slower and requires good timing. Me personally I would say if your going to invest in aggro loam instead just invest in JUND. It's not to kill aggro loam love lol but it's bc DRS really screws this deck up, which this deck can answer but it isn't as fast. Jund is better in the meta right now, it lacks the raw power of aggro loam but it's not heavily reliant on the graveyard and it abuses discard which i think is relevant. I will say this though, Chalice turn one is still the shiets lol so it's up to you man. control or aggro-combo? and also the control version has beter answers to show n tell.

[Kich867]

I'm still thoroughly of the opinion that 4 color loam is just bad. It tries to do too much and isn't focused enough of a deck. One guy did well with it. Once. I'll be shortly experimenting with a build I designed with a good friend of mine and be posting the results here over the next few weeks.

[Richard Cheese]

I'm still thoroughly of the opinion that 4 color loam is just bad. It tries to do too much and isn't focused enough of a deck. One guy did well with it. Once.

This x1000

[Megadeus]

I'm still thoroughly of the opinion that 4 color loam is just bad. It tries to do too much and isn't focused enough of a deck. One guy did well with it. Once.

Im sorry but this is just false. Hoogland has done well with the deck many times. In fact this past weekend He finished 6-2-1 with the deck including blowing out Esper SToneblade on cam with the deck. He has top 4'd three times this year with the deck. It is more than a flash in the pan.

[Kich867]

Im sorry but this is just false. Hoogland has done well with the deck many times. In fact this past weekend He finished 6-2-1 with the deck including blowing out Esper SToneblade on cam with the deck. He has top 4'd three times this year with the deck. It is more than a flash in the pan.

Sorry, one guy did well with it. Three times.

[Megadeus]

so the deck is bad because only one dude plays it and has actually taken the.time to master it? I'm sorry that is poor reasoning in my opinion. His finishes prove that the deck is nota bad deck. nobody else had picked upthe deck though

[Kich867]

so the deck is bad because only one dude plays it and has actually taken the.time to master it? I'm sorry that is poor reasoning in my opinion. His finishes prove that the deck is nota bad deck. nobody else had picked upthe deck though

People regularly top 8 with elves, someone won something with Blouses, someone has won with Pox, people get to top 8 with Affinity, it doesn't make them good decks objectively. Aggro Loam itself isn't a particularly great deck either. But of Aggro Loam variants, I believe his version is just categorically worse.

[Koby]

People regularly top 8 with elves, someone won something with Blouses, someone has won with Pox, people get to top 8 with Affinity, it doesn't make them good decks objectively. Aggro Loam itself isn't a particularly great deck either. But of Aggro Loam variants, I believe his version is just categorically worse.

I do agree that Hoogland knows his deck inside and out extremely well. I disagree with some his card choices/numbers, but I think objectively, 4c Aggro Loam still is still a solid choice. It's still going to suck against combo just like 3c Loam variants. Where it excels are the mid-range matchups.

[Kich867]

I do agree that Hoogland knows his deck inside and out extremely well. I disagree with some his card choices/numbers, but I think objectively, 4c Aggro Loam still is still a solid choice. It's still going to suck against combo just like 3c Loam variants. Where it excels are the mid-range matchups.

I just can't imagine a circumstance where 3c Loam variants are still just as good, but more consistent, and don't lose access to realistic removal spells over his 4c variant.. I think about 0 people still play Aggro Loam besides him, given the deck's weakness to combo.

[HammafistRoob]

But going 4 colors completely destroys your matchups against Tempo strategies.

[Koby]

But going 4 colors completely destroys your matchups against Tempo strategies.

The same matchup where KotR eats their entire deck for breakfast.


I just can't imagine a circumstance where 3c Loam variants are still just as good, but more consistent, and don't lose access to realistic removal spells over his 4c variant.. I think about 0 people still play Aggro Loam besides him, given the deck's weakness to combo.

This is more valid than the comparison between 4c and 3c Loam.

[sdematt]

The same matchup where KotR eats their entire deck for breakfast.



This is more valid than the comparison between 4c and 3c Loam.

I think if you're running this deck nowadays anyway, running 3 Mox and 3 DRS isn't a bad idea to mana fix like a beast.

-Matt

[Megadeus]

DRS is not great with chalice though.is the issue. I could see it somewhere in the deck though

[sdematt]

Why run Chalice when you can run all the things!

Pretty sure my new lists start with 3 Terravore, 4 Knight, 3 DRS and go from there. Chump that, suckers.

-Matt

[Kich867]

I'll go ahead and post the list I brewed:

Naya Loam:

4x Tarmogoyf
4x Knight of the Reliquary
3x Thalia / Crusher / Terravore(Up in the air, willing to discuss the merits of this slot)
2x Gaddock Teeg

4x Life from the Loam
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Swords to Plowshares

2x Koth of the Hammer
2x Goblin Trenches
3x Seismic Assault

4x Mox Diamond
24x Lands
(3x Wastelands, Karakas, Maze of Ith, 6x Cycle, 7x mountain duals, 6x Fetch)

// Sideboard: Still up in the air but, some obvious staples imo:
3x Red Blast
2x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Thorn of Amethyst
3x Krosan Grip
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Scavenging Ooze
3x Tormod's Crypt

[HammafistRoob]

The same matchup where KotR eats their entire deck for breakfast.
The same matchup where he gets countered or Submerged? Or they kill you with Delver before he even matters? You really threw me off here, I thought someone would say that Moxes and Dr. Death could help mitigate the damage done to your manabase. Which is true for the 3c versions as well, less risk less reward I guess. All I know is I would gladly play RUG over 4c Loam if I got to choose which one I'd pilot in the matchup.

[Megadeus]

between abrupt decay and punishing fires, ill take the loam side.

[Aggro_zombies]

I'll go ahead and post the list I brewed:

Naya Loam:

4x Tarmogoyf
4x Knight of the Reliquary
3x Thalia / Crusher / Terravore(Up in the air, willing to discuss the merits of this slot)
2x Gaddock Teeg

4x Life from the Loam
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Swords to Plowshares

2x Koth of the Hammer
2x Goblin Trenches
3x Seismic Assault

4x Mox Diamond
24x Lands
(3x Wastelands, Karakas, Maze of Ith, 6x Cycle, 7x mountain duals, 6x Fetch)

// Sideboard: Still up in the air but, some obvious staples imo:
3x Red Blast
2x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Thorn of Amethyst
3x Krosan Grip
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Scavenging Ooze
3x Tormod's Crypt
I, uh, really don't like Thalia in a deck with Loam, Bolt, StP, and a bunch of 3+ cc noncreature win conditions. The whole point of Loam is being able to cast it over and over again; what the card actually does is just barely powerful enough in the context of the format to be worth it at two mana, but it certainly isn't worth it at three mana.

I also don't like the nonbo of Teeg and Koth in the maindeck. I guess Koth is more expendable than Teeg since I'm not really sure what he does for you - ultimate, I guess? But I would not want to play a planeswalker solely for his ultimate.

Why no DRS? You could use the ramp. You should probably also run Sylvan Library over Trenches - Trenches is pretty bad even when you can Loam lands back because at that point you're basically paying the same amount of mana for an Empty the Warrens, except the storm triggers resolve once per turn. Yay! You really need a counterpart to Bob to make the Naya version better than Jund or 4cc.

[Ayotte]

I'm still thoroughly of the opinion that 4 color loam is just bad. It tries to do too much and isn't focused enough of a deck. One guy did well with it. Once. I'll be shortly experimenting with a build I designed with a good friend of mine and be posting the results here over the next few weeks.

I built Hoogland's list and have played it in 4 local tournaments, each time going 3-1, for a combined record of 12-4. It's working pretty well for me so far, and I don't really even know what I'm doing yet.

[Qweerios]

How about incorporating Green Sun's Zenith here? Having more virtual access to Teeg, KotR, Qasali sounds like something I would gladly take over Goyfs in general. A single Sylvan Safekeeper can be devastating against certain decks when you have Loam available and, say, a Crusher or a KotR to kill your opponent.

How does a 2/2 split of Sylvan Library and Oracle of Mul Daya sounds as a replacement for Bob, therefore, black altogether?

[Aggro_zombies]

...why Oracle? What does it do for you that Crusher doesn't? The extra land every turn? Doesn't strike me as being particularly useful when it comes attached to a four-drop.

This isn't really a GSZ deck. Generally, if you start down the GSZ path you'll reach a point where you realize that you're basically just building Maverick with red, except instead of good cards you're running a ton of lands and Life from the Loam. That path doesn't really end well in the sense that it ends in netdecking a Maverick-with-red list.

[sdematt]

...why Oracle? What does it do for you that Crusher doesn't? The extra land every turn? Doesn't strike me as being particularly useful when it comes attached to a four-drop.

This isn't really a GSZ deck. Generally, if you start down the GSZ path you'll reach a point where you realize that you're basically just building Maverick with red, except instead of good cards you're running a ton of lands and Life from the Loam. That path doesn't really end well in the sense that it ends in netdecking a Maverick-with-red list.

Agreed. This is a Control deck that we're building here, not really a toolbox deck. We're trying to build technically the grindiest deck in the format. I don't think GSZ is a long-term advantage engine on the scale of Loam/Assault or Fires/Grove. This deck was an excellent choice in the Mental Misstep era when Stoneblade ran rampant. If Deathblade becomes super popular, so do my Korean Seismic Assaults.

The only issue is: run white for Knight, or don't. I don't even feel like I'd want STP here: Bolt, Decay, and Fires should clean up what you need to, and your bigger creatures outclass ones you do not remove. Plus, if we play Jund colours, or JUND+w, I get to Dreadbore/Pyroblast Jaces, which is one of my favourite moves.

-Matt

[Aggro_zombies]

Agreed. This is a Control deck that we're building here, not really a toolbox deck. We're trying to build technically the grindiest deck in the format. I don't think GSZ is a long-term advantage engine on the scale of Loam/Assault or Fires/Grove. This deck was an excellent choice in the Mental Misstep era when Stoneblade ran rampant. If Deathblade becomes super popular, so do my Korean Seismic Assaults.

The only issue is: run white for Knight, or don't. I don't even feel like I'd want STP here: Bolt, Decay, and Fires should clean up what you need to, and your bigger creatures outclass ones you do not remove. Plus, if we play Jund colours, or JUND+w, I get to Dreadbore/Pyroblast Jaces, which is one of my favourite moves.

-Matt
Knight is not so hot against DRS. Granted, you can kill DRS pretty easily, but I'm wondering if you really want to reach into white for what is going to usually be Just Another Big Guy. Is the added option to chain Wastelands into each other valuable enough to wreck your mana or abandon Bob/Decay/all abilities on DRS? I don't really think so. Terravore is a fine JABG if you're in Jund and feel you need more of that sort of thing.

[Megadeus]

Knight also acts as a tutor for your one of things like Karakas which helps you alot vs SnT decks, it finds Maze of Ith, and it finds a Bojuka Bog out of the Sideboard.

And it isnt only a dumb beater like Terravore. Along with the fect that White gives you much better cards vs stuff like the new mono U SnT deck like Thalia or Ethersworn canonist. And like Terravore a resolved devastating dreams with a KOTR on the board is usually GG.

[Aggro_zombies]

Knight also acts as a tutor for your one of things like Karakas which helps you alot vs SnT decks, it finds Maze of Ith, and it finds a Bojuka Bog out of the Sideboard.
Knight into Karakas is at best a turn three play, but probably a turn four play. SnT can win by then. Karakas is also not so great against Griselbrand if they decide to draw a bunch and try again, or they go for Omniscience and combo out on you that way.

I'm not sure what Maze is supposed to do here. Fog Griselbrand? Give one of your big creatures pseudo-vigilance? For a land that taps for nothing (thereby occasionally screwing up your mulligan decisions), I'm not really buying it.

Bog out of the sideboard is fine, but is hardly a huge push to run Knight when stacked up against the loss of Bob, all of DRS's abilities, and Decay, or against having a really rocky four-color manabase.


And it isnt only a dumb beater like Terravore. Along with the fect that White gives you much better cards vs stuff like the new mono U SnT deck like Thalia or Ethersworn canonist. And like Terravore a resolved devastating dreams with a KOTR on the board is usually GG.
I would love to be playing SnT and have an Aggro Loam player try to DD me. Nice random self-Mind Twist bro, here's a Force of Will and a cantrip for your troubles.

Anyway, even if you're bringing in a ton of hatebears, many of which are anti-synergistic with the Life from the Loam engine, the fact still remains that you're a deck that's somewhere between 40% and 50% mana sources/lands and your clock is not very good. SnT has days to set up against you unless you have a nuts hand. You can't count on seeing your hatebears because you're not running Brainstorm or Ponder to dig them up, nor are you running a critical mass of hatebears and cheap threats like Maverick does; probably about 30% of your deck post-board actually does something to your SnT opponent and the rest of your deck is whatever pieces of the Loam engine you couldn't side out plus piles and piles of cards that apply no pressure.

So, um, yeah, I'm not really buying "Knight is better against combo" because going from a terrible matchup to a slightly less terrible matchup is not really a huge improvement when you set it besides what you're losing in the matchups you can actually win. That's sort of why no one plays this deck anymore: no matter how cute you get with it, there's just no reason to be a grindy inevitability deck when you can be a combo deck and have inevitability on, like, turn four.

[Megadeus]

A single Mox Diamond makes KOTR a Turn 2 play. Also If your SNeak and show opponent cast a SnT and puts in something you can put in KOTR and search up Karakas. And I am pushing 4 color loam which gives you Bob and Abrupt Decay. Also Chalice of the Void is a very solid card vs All of the hand massagers that SnT runs to sculpt with. Sure you have a not so great MU against SnT, but just because a deck has a poor MU has that ever stopped anyone? Goblins cant beat fast combo, yet we have seen Goblins win SCGs lately. Everyone is going to have a poor MU and citing one of the poor MUs is not a very good way to discredit a deck, especially one that seems to have so many good MUs against all of the other fair decks.

[Koby]

The idea of using KotR as a toolbox enabler sounds more along the lines of Eternal Garden, not Aggro Loam. My thoughts about the deck with KotR are not to necessarily use it as a tutor (for which it's good in SB games, say finding Tabernable or Maze of Ith, or Bojuka Bog, or Karakas); but rather to increase the density of Big Fat Beaters from 8 to 10. In the last build I used, it took place of some sweepers (EE, Pulse) and 1-2 Seismic. The core of the deck does not change significantly, nor do I recommend switching to StP when we now have Abrupt Decay (to replace the Terminate of old).

Aggro Loam is still about buying incremental tempo while turning sideways with large beaters.

[Megadeus]

I mean the white splash gives you great options to fight combo like Teeg and Thalia, along with basically a better Terravore.

[Aggro_zombies]

A single Mox Diamond makes KOTR a Turn 2 play. Also If your SNeak and show opponent cast a SnT and puts in something you can put in KOTR and search up Karakas. And I am pushing 4 color loam which gives you Bob and Abrupt Decay. Also Chalice of the Void is a very solid card vs All of the hand massagers that SnT runs to sculpt with. Sure you have a not so great MU against SnT, but just because a deck has a poor MU has that ever stopped anyone? Goblins cant beat fast combo, yet we have seen Goblins win SCGs lately. Everyone is going to have a poor MU and citing one of the poor MUs is not a very good way to discredit a deck, especially one that seems to have so many good MUs against all of the other fair decks.
How are you tapping a summoning-sick Knight to go find Karakas? Or are you assuming they SnT in a Griselbrand/Emrakul, have no Sneak Attack, and can't draw enough cards off Griselbrand to try to give him haste somehow?

And also assuming there's no Omniscience. SnT isn't a monolithic entity.

I understand that you can get Knight itself on turn two if you have the two-card combo of Knight and Mox. You can't get Karakas with Knight until turn three, and then only by sacrificing a land. In my experience, Mox is more of a land drop you get a turn or two early; you are probably going to miss a land drop on turn three or four unless you have Loam or topdeck poorly. Trading a multicolor land for a Karakas fucks up your mana, although I guess you have a Knight still.

Chalice is significantly better in a deck with Sol lands because then you can reliably get it out on your first turn. The longer the game goes, the less Chalice matters: they've already cast their cantrips, they've had longer to find an answer to it, or they've had longer to draw a hand where they can just win. Chalice isn't awful on turn two, especially if you're on the play, but against combo you'll often be on the draw in subsequent games and then they've had two full turns to make your Chalice irrelevant. Of course, that would all be fine if there was no cost to running Chalice, but there is: you get no one-drops of your own. DRS, Bolt, and to a lesser extent stuff like StP, are all important to keeping you in the game early.

Four-color Loam is just greed. You can accomplish basically everything you need to accomplish within Jund colors - white just gives you Knight, some hatebears (a trap, since you aren't beating combo anyway), and StP (Abrupt Decay is close enough and uncounterable). Your mana gets worse unless you decide to ditch Seismic Assault, but then there really isn't a reason to run Life from the Loam at all, so you're just playing a bad deck at that point. I don't think it's a good trade-off, but whatever.

[Megadeus]

I think it is just a preference thing. I like having Teeg and Thalia as outs to combo. And I dont think that the deck needs to have seismic assault to make Loam good. Hoogland has proven that the deck works and is consistent. It just requires intricate knowledge and tight play. It is simply a preference. I like being greedy. Some of my favorite cards are in his deck. I love loam strategies, I love chalice of the void as my main disruption, I love Mox Diamond to gain Tempo, and I love Wish boards. Hoogland has made a deck that combines some of my favorite things. Is it greedy? Probably. Is it fun? Hell yes. All Im saying is that for the people who call it bad, I just don't think that you have even tested it. Every deck has its poor MUs.

[Tyrio]

Four-color Loam is just greed. You can accomplish basically everything you need to accomplish within Jund colors - white just gives you Knight, some hatebears (a trap, since you aren't beating combo anyway), and StP (Abrupt Decay is close enough and uncounterable). Your mana gets worse unless you decide to ditch Seismic Assault, but then there really isn't a reason to run Life from the Loam at all, so you're just playing a bad deck at that point. I don't think it's a good trade-off, but whatever.

Maindeck Chalice and Teeg, as well as sideboard Thalia and more Teegs are pretty good against storm-based combo; Hoogland beat both Prosak's ANT and Mitchell's TES deck. 4C mana is admittedly bad, but 7 copies of Life from the Loam and Mox Diamonds go a long way towards alleviating those mana troubles. In the end I think you're trading a few percentage points against RUG Delver and Omni-variants for locking up virtually all your other match ups. Resolved Devastating Dreams destroy pretty much every other fair deck in the format, and like I said earlier Chalice, Teeg and Thalia improve your Storm match up considerably.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Is it possible to run a wish engine in 3 color?

[Dark Ritual]

Is it possible to run a wish engine in 3 color?

It's possible, just not very good at all. Hoogland's list is a lot more geared around loam itself, it's probably the reason he runs wish. Jund loam is quite different in comparison in terms of card choices. Most lists don't run chalice anymore, most still run 4 goyf while Hoogland does not. Chalice of the void is a very bad topdeck and limits our choices. It also means we're a turn behind when we don't open with mox diamond, which is one of the problems with chalice lists/lists without 1 drops outside of cycling a land, which does actual nothing in terms of advancing out board state. Did I mention how bad wish is in terms of limiting our sideboard slots? I love that we only get half of our sideboard while the rest are basically spells that cost 1R more.

While knight is quite powerful, the splash into 4 colors is quite greedy. It makes us even more reliant on mox diamond in that without mox diamond we might have to make awkward choices fetching or naturally drawing dual lands might affect consistency.

[Petree]

I think it is just a preference thing. I like having Teeg and Thalia as outs to combo. And I dont think that the deck needs to have seismic assault to make Loam good. Hoogland has proven that the deck works and is consistent. It just requires intricate knowledge and tight play. It is simply a preference. I like being greedy. Some of my favorite cards are in his deck. I love loam strategies, I love chalice of the void as my main disruption, I love Mox Diamond to gain Tempo, and I love Wish boards. Hoogland has made a deck that combines some of my favorite things. Is it greedy? Probably. Is it fun? Hell yes. All Im saying is that for the people who call it bad, I just don't think that you have even tested it. Every deck has its poor MUs.


Yes! Yes!

Okay for the argument. Hooglands list is actually really good unless your a bad aggro loam player. For everyone arguing against it, why don't you just learn to play the deck first. Yes it does lose sesmic assault (my personal preference I don't like). What you have to understand about his version is that you have to slow the f*** down. The deck basically says yes counter this, counter that, keep on killing my stuff while i set up then when the "timing is right" then you play knight and cast devastating dreams for the win, sometimes it can be early or late it all depends on the position your in. I will admit it's a tough ass deck to play, has anyone here ever seen Hoogland play his games??? I have. He's actually a really good good magic player and he knows when to slow down and to speed up. Trust me, im saying this to the haters, if you don't play this deck at that level you don't understand the power of this deck. Everyone has good points about the 3 color version and the 4 color version. But it's like Megadeus says, it's all PREFERENCE. Me personally i'm still playing the 3 color version because I like a more tempo play and occasionally versions like that tend to run out of juice but it's the way I like the deck. One thing I'd like to note about Hooglands list, is that I rather player Countryside Crusher over Teeg and GSZ. I rather just board in combo hate. But thats my PREFERENCE.


The argument for Knight is annoying me. Knight's purpose is to just simply close the game out. DD or dredge enough, giant knight, smash for the win (if it still lives). What everyone isn't saying on here is why do we decide to stop running Countryside Crusher? The creature basically shines in this deck. If 1/3 + of my deck is lands, I'd probably want to be running a crusher. Why? Filter. He simply filters out the lands so you can basically gain card advantage. Not only does he do that, most of the time opponents tend to just let him grow lol idk why but he becomes very good if he stays alive. Chalice was only there in the first place to protect your creatures, simple as that. It just happened that it straight ruined main other cards lol.

I did talk to Hoogland. He was very clear on all his choices for the deck and even said it's not a deck people can just pick up and play. I was bare witness to that when he let one of his group memebers who was an 2 time open winner play the deck in a side event. His guy did not pilot it as well. The one thing we both admit was that devastating dreams is a very powerful card.


As for right now, imho i believe anyone playing this deck should at least be playing punishing fire in it. It helps the MU against esper and literally gets rid of the worst thing for this deck DRS.

^^ A wish sideboard in the 3 color version is terrible bc the deck was originally played like that, one thing I found was that; in the 3 color version you rather just be kind of fast if your playing abrupt decay. And if your not playing white you can always play Thorn of Amythest as your hatebear. There's a lot of thing this deck can do. I love love this deck. Still play it (replying to the one post asking if anyone still plays it). It was just a tough deck to play when RUG first started coming around but now that decay is printed the deck is still relevant. Also this deck has a tough time against it's old enemy lol counterbalance.

[Megadeus]

exactly. this is a deck where the last thing that you care about is winning the game. you need to focus on getting one of your engines going. it is a very slow and extremely grindy deck.

[sdematt]

I'd likely run something like:

3 Seismic Assault
4 Life from the Loam
3 Mox Diamond
3 Punishing Fires
3 Lightning Bolt
4 Abrupt Decay
20

3 Countryside Crusher
3 Deathrite Shaman
3 Terravore
3 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Dark Confidant
16

3 Tranquil Thicket
2 Forgotten Cave
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Badlands
1 Taiga
1 Bayou
+1 Land (Stronghold, Wolf Run, Etc.)

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Slaughter Games
+4 cards

Bolts could be Chalice of the Voids, or just Bolts since infinite removal is nice for outgunning Deathblade/Jund and the like. Essentially, you run Knight to have a huge beater and maybe Teeg and stuff in the board.


-Matt

[Megadeus]

Played Hooglands list tonight except -2 Bobs -1 Maze of Ith, +1 Grove of the Burnwillows +1 Countryside Crusher +1 Tibalt, The Fiend Blooded (because why not?!). Went 2-1-1 in the swiss. Won my top 8 MU.

Round 1: UR Delver
Game 1: Wasnt too difficult of a game. On the draw I go double Mox Diamond, Fetch. Decay his delver after he Mainphases a BS to flip it. Get KOTR down, resolve Dreams, win the game.

Game2: He forces a chalice on 1, but he mulled to a very underwhelming 5 and couldnt keep up.

1-0

Round 2: Jund Vengevine Zombies
Game 1: I chalice for one and black a lot of his stuff. Wasteland him a bit while I get the loam engine going. Countryside Crusher comes down and quickly becomes a 12/12.

Game 2: A VERY long and grindy game and a nice beginning to my master punts. He gets a couple of Lol Trolls down and Gets Vengevines out a lot. I punt by not abrupt decaying his Lol Troll when he is tapped out, but finally get 3 Punishing Fires back to kill off the troll when he is tapped down. Then Resolve a very very late game devastating dreams with 2 KOTRs on the board. Man So many punts by me here.

2-0

Round 3: Goblins
Game 1 I keep a hand with double grove of the burnwillows, and a punishing fire. I keep firing all of his dudes. At some point I cast tibalt. Then pass because Tibalt sucks. He feels it is a threat and attacks it. I save tibalt with Fires and eventually devastating dreams and he just scoops.

Game 2 I keep a sketchy hand and he has a T1 lackey that connects and I cant keep up and just die.

Game 3 He keeps a one wasteland Aether Vial Hand. I punt by discarding my dryad arbor to my Mox Diamond and only have colorless sources other wise so I cant decay his T1 Vial. He never draws another land, but vial plus infinite lackeys gets him there as I draw no Devastating Dreams :(

2-1

Round 4: Deadguy (roommate)

We ID.

2-1-1

Top 8: Tin FIns (Phazonmuant on the Source)

Game 1 I keep a hand with no disruption and hope my Turn 2 KOTR for Karakas is good enough. He silence walks me T2 and I proceed to die

Game 2 I get a Thalia Down on T2. Between that and a Chalice which I top deck at some point, His serenity doesnt quite get him there. He Reanimates Griselbrand putting him to 3 life. I cast KOTR. He attacks me down to 13 and goes to 10 but doesnt pay life to try and win. He does Play a Pithing Needle naming Karakas however. I draw a burning wish. I tank for an eternity (because Im bad) and wish for Chainers Edict and take out Griselbeez and attack him to 6 (only had 2 lands in the yard). He is drawing pretty dead. I attack him to 2 next turn and forget I have PFire. Luckily he said something about a PFire and I remember to kill him!

Game 3 I keep a double Mox Diamond, Chalice hand with Dryad Arbor for the beats. On the draw I chalice for 1. He doesnt have any way to beat it for a couple of turns and I draw a Thalia. I have 2 chalice on board when he plays serenity to get them out. I Belive I cast another chalice and he plays serenity again but I wish for pulse to take it out. Then I draw a couple of KOTRs off of my infinite cycle lands and they get there.


I know the top 8 games seem confusing. They all kind of blur together. But I punted my way to victory which shows that the deck is quite powerful. Overall the deck felt great and I am very very confident once I actually get Bobs to play the deck with! I cut the Maze of Ith because I play so many awkward lands and I wanted another colored source. I wish I played one mismatched Grove just so I could see how often it would have been my Maze of Ith. I may make a change or two here and there, but overall I think the deck is excellent. Devastating Dreams is very appropriately named.

[Petree]

@ Matt

The only problem with running infinite removal is that they all might just go in the graveyard. I don't know what its like to play pnishing fire and assault but doesnt sound bad. I think though you have to adjust your creatures bc if you get a bob online dude flipping 3 crushers 3 terravore 3 knights 3 assaults is gonna kill you pretty fast. Aggro loam tends to damage you a lot in its own way.


^^^ Megadeus


For all you haters out there on Devastating Dreams, this dude just proved it's worth lol.... it has to be all timed corrctly though. but holy crap did you smoke a lot of dudes out w aggro loam. Once you get bobs bro the deck just becomes more efficient and faster lol.... Oh and another thing.... Crusher is seriously a monster haha 12/12!!! smh.... no joke lol

[Aggro_zombies]

I'd likely run something like:

3 Seismic Assault
4 Life from the Loam
3 Mox Diamond
3 Punishing Fires
3 Lightning Bolt
4 Abrupt Decay
20

3 Countryside Crusher
3 Deathrite Shaman
3 Terravore
3 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Dark Confidant
16

3 Tranquil Thicket
2 Forgotten Cave
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Badlands
1 Taiga
1 Bayou
+1 Land (Stronghold, Wolf Run, Etc.)

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Slaughter Games
+4 cards

Bolts could be Chalice of the Voids, or just Bolts since infinite removal is nice for outgunning Deathblade/Jund and the like. Essentially, you run Knight to have a huge beater and maybe Teeg and stuff in the board.


-Matt
Your manabase is set up such that you can only cast Knight off Mox Diamond, unless the one open land slot is Riftstone Portal or a white dual. I agree that you run too many three-drops - I don't think you need all of the big 3 cmc beaters. Knights could easily be some combination of Libraries, Dreams, or Tarmogoyfs.

You'd still be able to run Teeg out of the board, but I'm not digging the nonbo of Teeg and Chalice if that's your anti-combo plan. Honestly, I'm not sure why everyone's so fixated on combo to begin with - just take your free "crushing the fair decks" and be happy.

[Megadeus]

I mean it is one of the best cards vs all of the fair decks in the format. Wrathaggedon is no joke. And for those who say it eats a force or something, it isnt like you are just running it out there on T4 or something... It is a game sealing card. If they arent using their forces on your KOTR's and Librarys and such then you are probably winning anyway. Also Phazonmuant just posted a much better version of our Top 8 game that is probably much more accurate than mine in the tin fins thread. The deck is super duper greedy and can lose games due to just not drawing the right colored sources, but overall I think it is fine. Mox Diamond goes a long way to fixing our mana very nicely and Im not sure if cutting the maze of ith is right, but I can only be so greedy...

[Kich867]

For all you haters out there on Devastating Dreams, this dude just proved it's worth lol.... it has to be all timed corrctly though. but holy crap did you smoke a lot of dudes out w aggro loam. Once you get bobs bro the deck just becomes more efficient and faster lol.... Oh and another thing.... Crusher is seriously a monster haha 12/12!!! smh.... no joke lol

Crusher is run in 3c Loam variants, and Hoogland doesn't play them as far as I know..so I'm not sure how that goes towards justifying the 'goodness' of the list. How exactly did he prove the worth of Devastating Dreams? By beating UR Delver, which is pretty much a bye since none of their creatures have more than 2 toughness and they aren't going to clock you out with burn given the deck's blue density. By beating a jank-brew. Or by losing to Goblins, which is so wildly in Aggro Loam's favor it's silly, a matchup that should be approaching un-lose-able barring serious mulligans / unbelievably bad draws? Or by beating Tin Fins, inarguably the worst combo deck. I don't think I've ever seen a deck scoop so often to things like a discard spell or a deathrite shaman, or a vendillion clique, or a force of will, or a surgical..

Goblins has no way to stop Seismic Assault and has absolutely no interaction with your graveyard, you can literally just Seismic Assault + Loam their board over and over until they run out of cards and kill them.

I don't actually think Devistating Dreams is a bad card, it's not awful, it's just that Hoogland's deck requires you to not run 1 drops, of which there are incredibly powerful one-drops, the mana base is too greedy, and Knight of the Reliquary isn't a good enough card to make splashing white worth it.

[Megadeus]

Crusher is run in 3c Loam variants, and Hoogland doesn't play them as far as I know..so I'm not sure how that goes towards justifying the 'goodness' of the list. How exactly did he prove the worth of Devastating Dreams? By beating UR Delver, which is pretty much a bye since none of their creatures have more than 2 toughness and they aren't going to clock you out with burn given the deck's blue density.

But they do run Price of Progress which is an epic beating in the MU against my deck. He was a single land short of snapcasting back a price of progress for lethal, but thanks to Dreams I kept him off of mana.

By beating a jank-brew.

That Jank brew finished 6-3 at SCG ATL in February and is a very finely tuned deck. In addition to being sometimes quite explosive

Or by losing to Goblins, which is so wildly in Aggro Loam's favor it's silly, a matchup that should be approaching un-lose-able barring serious mulligans / unbelievably bad draws?

Like I said in my report, I misplayed in Game 3 which cost me the match.

Or by beating Tin Fins, inarguably the worst combo deck. I don't think I've ever seen a deck scoop so often to things like a discard spell or a deathrite shaman, or a vendillion clique, or a force of will, or a surgical..

Im not sure that you even know what you are talking about here. Tin fins just top 8'd the SCG Open, and the guy I played against last night top 8'd the SCG ATL open in April.

Goblins has no way to stop Seismic Assault and has absolutely no interaction with your graveyard, you can literally just Seismic Assault + Loam their board over and over until they run out of cards and kill them.

That is a fair point, but punishing fire is basically the same thing that doesnt require triple red and a do nothing enchantment (not that I think Assault is a bad card)

I don't actually think Devistating Dreams is a bad card, it's not awful, it's just that Hoogland's deck requires you to not run 1 drops, of which there are incredibly powerful one-drops, the mana base is too greedy, and Knight of the Reliquary isn't a good enough card to make splashing white worth it.

Devastating Dreams is very powerful and wins games. Getting Chalice of the void is perfectly fine to not play one drops when instead you get to hose 50% of the formats best spells. The mana base is extremely greedy and you will not hear me argue, but it does work most of the time. The white splash not only gives you knight of the reliquary who is basically a better terravore, but it also gives you Thalia out of the board who did a lot of work for me vs tin fins last night, as well as getting teeg. Do you know what miracles does vs a chalice on 1 and a Teeg on board? They scoop. The white is worth it in my eyes.

My comments in Bold

[Megadeus]

Hoogland took 12th this weekend. I think it is time that his deck were taken more seriously. The only thing is not very many people play his list. Does any one other than me play it? I also noticed he played a slaughter games out of the board. I like that allot. Game one against allot of combo decks you may be able to steal the game by naming the right cards

[Ayotte]

I've been playing his list with the only change being a Slaughter Games in the board and it's won me a few games.

[Kich867]

Jupiter Report: Top 16 with Aggro Loam,

List:
//Creatures: 12
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Dark Confidant
2x Countryside Crusher
2x Terravore

// Instants/Sorceries: 12
4x Devastating Dreams
4x Life from the Loam
3x Abrupt Decay
1x Maelstrom Pulse

// Stuff: 11
3x Seismic Assault
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Mox Diamond

// Lands: 25
4x Taiga
2x Badlands
1x Bayou
4x Wooded Foothills
2x Bloodstained Mire
3x Wasteland
4x Forgotten Cave
2x Tranquil Thicket
1x Forest
1x Swamp
1x Mountain

// Sideboard: 15
2x Nihil Spellbomb
2x Surgical Extraction
3x Hymn to Tourach
3x Thoughtseize
2x Liliana of the Veil
2x Golgari Charm
1x Engineered Explosives


Round 1: Hollywood playing Sneak and Show: 2-1
Game 1: He emrakuls me on turn 2, ok, that's fine.

Game 2: He keeps an ultra sketchy hand I guess, and I have an awkward hand with no pressure, but I get there. Each turn we tank hard, I'm actually convinced he's on Omnitell as I've seen nothing but blue, and it wasn't until the end of game 2 that I realized he was on Sneak and Show. I get there while trying to keep mana up for golgari charming omniscience or something.

Game 3: I realize he's on Sneak and Show and I keep a turn 1 Bob with Liliana and Golgari Charm hand. We get into an awkward board state where he gets pretty low from Bob beat downs and Liliana ticking away at his hand. He has to find a Sneak Attack to Show and Tell > Sneak Attack > Griselbrand, however he's too low to draw, so it'd literally just be there to kill Liliana and I would Golgari Charm it at the end of his turn then beat him to death with Bob. He draws Sneak attack a turn too late.

Round 2: Timur with BUG Delver: 0-2
This isn't even a real game, he has a god hand against me two games in a row (game 2 keeping double waste and then draws 1 and 2 are both wasteland). I die permanentless on a mull to 5.

Round 3: Paul Lake with Punishing Jund: 2-1
Game 1: I waste lock him to death and kill his deathrites.

Game 2: This is just absurd. I drop a turn 1 goyf, then I drop a turn 2 goyf, he wastes me, I waste him, he has 1 land, a deathrite, and a nihil spellbomb out. I swing with 1/2 goyfs, he blocks with deathrite, second main phase I Devastating Dreams for 1. He proceeds to royally punt the game by using nihil spellbomb wrong, losing his creature and land, and burning a bolt in an attempt to kill a 4/5 Goyf post combat on the one that didn't have damage on it. So I now have 8 power on the board and he's at 18. He plays a land for his turn, I hit him for 8, he plays a land for his turn, goyf, I hit him for 4, he plays a land for his turn and plays Bob and Deathrite and proceeds to climb out of it and win the game. I couldn't swing in with goyfs, I never draw another land but proceed to draw literally every single 3 drop in a row in my entire deck. If I swung with goyfs he'd just double block one, kill it, double block the other, kill it, and/or block and punishing fires it. No bueno.

Game 3: I play land mox go, he deathrites, I kill it, next turn I drop a crusher. Crusher goes apeshit for a few turns and puts him low. He top decks some Deathrites to try and stay in the game. I have him for lethal, but he abrupt decays. Time is called, I double cycle EOT and hit Goyf land. I proceed to topdeck goyf. I slam two goyfs and pass, he draws his card, slumps, and scoops. Earlier in this game I played Devastating Dreams for like 2 just for a double wasteland

Round 4: D-HAAAAAAASSS with Deathblade: 2-0
Game 1: He therapies me and sees a turn 1 chalice hand, but takes Bob. I slam turn 1 chalice. The game drags on, I drop a Terravore, he drops a Jace and bounces. I draw, find another land, and decide Bob + Abrupt Decay open is better than terravore right now. So I do that, he casts something, then brainstorms with jace, leaving 2 mana open. I feel like Snapcaster is going to chump Bob, but I swing at jace anyways, he tanks for a few moments. He cracks his fetch and casts brainstorm, I point to Chalice and tell him it's countered. I think that put him on tilt a little for forgetting the Chalice was there, Jace dies and he scoops the next turn.

Game 2: Things start off super weird and I'm very far behind, but it seems like he has no real action as just a Deathrite is beating me. I think I'm super fucked after getting wastelanded twice, but I eventually find land and a life from the loam and get back into it, as I've got no pressure on me. I land a chalice, he lets it resolve and abrupt decays it, two turns later I find another, it resolves. I maelstrom pulse his deathrite shaman a turn or two later, put a beater into play and pass, he draws his card and scoops. Apparently after the second chalice resolved it shut his whole hand off.

Round 5: Janene with Maverick: 2-1
Game 1: The dream game for Aggroloam. Turn 1 chalice, turn 2 Crusher, on her turn 3 she played garruk and made a dude (I had a fetch open). I fetch, untap, draw, cast dreams for 3, and kill garruk, she draws a wasteland, Crusher gets enormous and kills her.

Game 2: I keep a mana-sketchy hand I should have shipped and proceed to not see any more land or loams and just get rocked.

Game 3: I keep another mana-sketchy hand I should have shipped and proceed to get tempo'd the fuck out. She had double wasteland for my first two lands, + lands enough to play the rest of her hand, I was left with nothing and died to an infinity / infinity mirran crusader. =(

She rode in with me, and our driver (Mr. Rich Cali) pointed out that I didn't board out chalice, and that was wrong. I think Maverick is very favorable, but sketchy keeps won't get there. However, this was cool, since it gave someone in our car a guaranteed shot at top 8!

Round 6: Kevin (Arianrhod) with Scapeshift Nic Fit: 2-1
Game 1: Things happen, and we get to a board state where he has double veteran explorer out and I have a goyf. I think I dreams for most of his land, but then he Wishes for Innocent Blood and kills my goyf. I topdeck like a champ into a fetch, cast loam, and get back into the game. He manages to get 6 basics in play, things happen, I drop another Dreams for 5. I drop a 25/25 Terravore the next turn and we go to game 2. (This game is hazey, a lot of shit happened in this round and it was hard to remember all the details).

Game 2: I'm retarded and don't bring out Chalices which end up costing me the game. It gets to a point where I have terravore, he has Chameleon, but Chameleon is bigger, and then he scapeshifts me. Had I boarded out chalices, I think I could have Pulsed his Wood Elves, made him sac Chameleon to Liliana, and then ... actually I still would have died to scapeshift nevermind.

Game 3: I board out chalices. I bring in discard. I keep an aggressive hand I think, I don't really remember. The crucial turn though I play a 2/2 Terravore with a Goyf out and pass. He has double Veteran Explorer out and passes back, my eyes light up as I was hoping nothing would really happen this turn, I draw my card, loam up to the requisite number of cards, and Dream his land and board. He's left with 4 lands, Terravore and Goyf bash in for an absurd amount of damage. He draws, lays a land, and concedes. He had the Deed to blow me out, but correctly played around Abrupt Decay as he couldn't play it and kill the entire board until next turn. He can only kill the Goyf, and Terravore is wildly lethal at this point.

I end up making Top 16, and get enough store credit to buy a really nice quality foil Life from the Loam. I'm quite settled on the deck, and I think it's time to start thinking about pimping it out a little bit at a time =D.

Shout outs:
-Devastating Dreams and Chalice rock.
-Splashing white is totally unnecessary, and Chalice + a faster clock + having a real sideboard for combo decks and not a janky wishboard is substantially better.
-Foil Life from the Loam!
-Not getting tilted today, spent a lot of time mulling over the two matches I lost and how to improve them in the future though.
-Round 6 a friend from my local game store was also in top 8 contention and told me that it was unlikely that he'd top 8 if I didn't lose to Kevin. But I wanted to run Aggro Loam as hard as I could because I love the shit out of this deck, so I did, because I was confident I could win. I did win, Janene and I both made top 16, and Steve made top 8 anyways like a boss (going on to top-4 the event).

Not Shouting Out:
-Bug Delver god hands, to the left and right of me was a sea of favorable matchups.
-Having to play a friend for top 8 win and in =( .
-Not enough aggro loam pimp at Jupiter =( .

[Antonius]

^^Congrats on the top 16. 4 DD seems like a lot, though..

I'm starting to get back into it again after taking virtually the whole year off from magic. Maybe I haven't been back long enough to play enough games and I'm just putting out a knee-jerk reaction but I just don't feel good about 3cc creatures atm. It seems to me that the flagship big creatures we've always been winning with aren't as good as they were a year ago because of an overall metagame shift. Crusher and Ooze were amazing back in the day because the only decks well equipped to dealing with them were blade decks that were fundamentally weak to the rest our tools, engine and removal. Now, the most popular decks are other BGx, and even though they have glaring, fundamental weaknesses to loam they also have unparalleled ability to pull bullshit out of their ass and beat us with incredible tempo plays. BUG delver and Jund can be such a night and day matchups, depending on the hand. Either we dominate them with loam and acceleration or they spend the entire game one or two turns ahead of us with cheap removal, cheaper threats and bullshit like daze and cascade. The UW miracles nightmare match-up is still a significant part of the metagame and our creatures have always been bad against them.

My response to all this is to get slower and grindier. I've got something totally different that I'm gonna start testing:

4 Wooded Foothills
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Forest
3 Badlands
1 Bayou
1 Taiga
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Twilight Mire
2 Raging Ravine
4 Wasteland
4 Forgotten Cave
2 Tranquil Thicket

4 Mox Diamond

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant

4 Liliana of the Veil

4 Life from the Loam
2 Dreadbore

3 Abrupt Decay
4 Punishing Fire

3 Seismic Assault
1 Sylvan Library

[Kich867]

^^Congrats on the top 16. 4 DD seems like a lot, though..

I'm starting to get back into it again after taking virtually the whole year off from magic. Maybe I haven't been back long enough to play enough games and I'm just putting out a knee-jerk reaction but I just don't feel good about 3cc creatures atm. It seems to me that the flagship big creatures we've always been winning with aren't as good as they were a year ago because of an overall metagame shift. Crusher and Ooze were amazing back in the day because the only decks well equipped to dealing with them were blade decks that were fundamentally weak to the rest our tools, engine and removal. Now, the most popular decks are other BGx, and even though they have glaring, fundamental weaknesses to loam they also have unparalleled ability to pull bullshit out of their ass and beat us with incredible tempo plays. BUG delver and Jund can be such a night and day matchups, depending on the hand. Either we dominate them with loam and acceleration or they spend the entire game one or two turns ahead of us with cheap removal, cheaper threats and bullshit like daze and cascade. The UW miracles nightmare match-up is still a significant part of the metagame and our creatures have always been bad against them.

My response to all this is to get slower and grindier. I've got something totally different that I'm gonna start testing:

4 Wooded Foothills
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Forest
3 Badlands
1 Bayou
1 Taiga
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Twilight Mire
2 Raging Ravine
4 Wasteland
4 Forgotten Cave
2 Tranquil Thicket

4 Mox Diamond

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant

4 Liliana of the Veil

4 Life from the Loam
2 Dreadbore

3 Abrupt Decay
4 Punishing Fire

3 Seismic Assault
1 Sylvan Library

I -really- don't think going grindier is the way to go nor do you need Punishing Fire / Seismic. I do however, think that Seismic Assault is antiquated after the tournament. I never actually killed anyone with it, I just killed creatures, and Punishing / Grove is far more easily setup and functions separately from Seismic Assault. However, being able to Dredge the shit out of loam in order to find the entire combo is wonderful and profitable, so that's cool. I'll have to fix my mana base accordingly.

Also, why is UW Miracles a nightmare matchup? I just recently crushed this at FNM (sidenote: also placed second this friday at my LGS's FNM, beating UW Miracles and ANT, losing only to Omnitell) and what they did didn't seem inherently good against me. I landed a chalice for one, landed a creature, kept him off double white, got him low enough to drop a Seismic Assault and top deck lands until he died. The other game I won he got beat to death after I EE'd RIP and Counterbalance then dropped a chalice on 1 and 4 and proceeded to kill him with dudes / seismic assault land top decks.

[sdematt]

Counterbalance sucks. Sure, you have Decay, but if you don't have it, have fun getting locked out of Loam. Also, tutoring for Rest in Peace is also quite balls.

-Matt

[Kich867]

Counterbalance sucks. Sure, you have Decay, but if you don't have it, have fun getting locked out of Loam. Also, tutoring for Rest in Peace is also quite balls.

-Matt

Ah that's true I suppose, every time he got a counterbalance up I had the decay for it / sideboard I had the EE to blow out his enchantments.

[Antonius]

I -really- don't think going grindier is the way to go nor do you need Punishing Fire / Seismic. I do however, think that Seismic Assault is antiquated after the tournament. I never actually killed anyone with it, I just killed creatures, and Punishing / Grove is far more easily setup and functions separately from Seismic Assault. However, being able to Dredge the shit out of loam in order to find the entire combo is wonderful and profitable, so that's cool. I'll have to fix my mana base accordingly.

Also, why is UW Miracles a nightmare matchup? I just recently crushed this at FNM (sidenote: also placed second this friday at my LGS's FNM, beating UW Miracles and ANT, losing only to Omnitell) and what they did didn't seem inherently good against me. I landed a chalice for one, landed a creature, kept him off double white, got him low enough to drop a Seismic Assault and top deck lands until he died. The other game I won he got beat to death after I EE'd RIP and Counterbalance then dropped a chalice on 1 and 4 and proceeded to kill him with dudes / seismic assault land top decks.

Have you played against UW a lot? What were they running? Were they on UWr? Punishing Miracles? Or were they running factories or other non-basics? Because you make it sound like cutting them off WW was easy... out here, everyone plays joe lossett's list with 10+ basic lands. I've played against joe a lot and I can assure you, it's not a pretty matchup. Their mana is very difficult to disrupt, one of the reasons why they're pretty robust against our strategy.

Secondly, they can cut us off from loam with counterbalance or they can take loam away with Clique. Granted, we have an answer to CB in the form of abrupt decay but if you do not get rid of CB immediately they can just take over the game. If you spend a lot of time cut off from loam, you WILL fall behind, as the rest of our the deck is complete dogshit against them. They have nigh-infinite removal (4 swords, 2-4 snapcaster, 2+ detention sphere, 4 terminus...on top of Jace bounce) so getting there with the beatdown plan just isn't going to happen unless you're really lucky. If they cut you off from loam and then drop a jace and start fatesealing you, it's over. Active CB + pocket removal + Jace is very difficult to beat.

Lastly and perhaps most crucially, they can just win games out of no where with entreat the angels. Because they have so much removal, you have to grind them out with loam and that gives them more than enough time to get to the 4-6 mana necessary to just crush us with angel tokens. I've lost quite a few games UW where I had turned the corner, taken over the game and started drawing multiple cards a turn. Their ability to just flip top and make guys like that is fucking frustrating--matter of fact, it's probably the scariest thing they have in their deck. Active CB into Jace with removal is difficult to beat, but if you have abrupt and punishing burnwillows you can answer it. There is no answer for Entreat. But, I think that if you can take away entreat (via slaughter games, maybe? Wishing for that seems a VERY interesting aspect to the Hoogland list and tempts me to test burning wish again) their deck becomes very beatable. As long as you're not completely flatfooted when they play Jace.

Now, your list is very different from mine and Chalice is a certified silver bullet against them. Because top and brainstorm are so essential to their strategy you're going to win games off the back of chalice for one. But everything I said still stands and I feel that how you fare in that matchup will generally revolve around how often you're able to stick chalice for one. Also worth noting that they have their own answer to chalice in the form of Detention Sphere.

[Kich867]

I mean, Joe Lossett is also like, a straight up fucking god sent from another realm so I can't fault you for losing to him ever haha. Those are all valid points though, I don't have much experience playing against it, -very- few players play Miracles in my area.

[Antonius]

I think the combination of punishing burnwillows and Liliana is what we want to be playing right now. They lock up the game against virtually everything the fair decks can throw against us and are very robust and difficult to disrupt. Liliana is almost always a 2 for 1, one of the advantages I think she has over dudes. Whether seismic is better than dudes or not is something I'll have to see in testing. As of now, though, I think being able to win outside of combat damage is very important.

[Megadeus]

I think the combination of punishing burnwillows and Liliana is what we want to be playing right now. They lock up the game against virtually everything the fair decks can throw against us and are very robust and difficult to disrupt. Liliana is almost always a 2 for 1, one of the advantages I think she has over dudes. Whether seismic is better than dudes or not is something I'll have to see in testing. As of now, though, I think being able to win outside of combat damage is very important.

So we should just play punishing jund?

[ESG]

@Antonius: Slaughter Games is very strong vs. Miracles. It's also generally decent against combo decks. You have enough acceleration for it to be threatening to them when they're on a hand that's relying on cantrips. At its best, it's your fastest way to get a concession. I would also play Chalice if I cared about improving the combo matchups, but I typically pick this deck up only when I expect fields of decks I can prey on, so it's usually geared to ignoring combo.

I also like EE and Krosan Grip vs. Miracles. I haven't run Dreadbore in a tournament yet, but it tested OK. It kind of competes with the REB slot.

I don't like the Hoogland list at all (manabase is the WORST), but he's certainly put up results with it.

[Kich867]

So we should just play punishing jund?

See, now, I was literally going to type something close to that out and it might just be it. It was sort of a morbid, "Have we really just reached the conclusion that Punishing Jund is where this archetype is going?". Maybe it's true, Aggro Loam is a very cool deck, but Punishing Jund has a far more linear gameplan with similar perks, except it has a faster clock, better disruption, and more relevant card advantage--triple cycling lands and dredging loams is really cool, but is it really worth it?

The big difference between my list and Jund is that I have Chalice and Devastating Dreams, which are cool, and disruptive, but Punishing Jund is disruptive in a far more direct way and is way less durdley.

[Megadeus]

I pay this over jund because I like loam strategies, I like lotsof decision trees, andI think chalice is well positioned. also like playing wrathageddon with knights of the reliquary

[Richard Cheese]

I think the combination of punishing burnwillows and Liliana is what we want to be playing right now. They lock up the game against virtually everything the fair decks can throw against us and are very robust and difficult to disrupt. Liliana is almost always a 2 for 1, one of the advantages I think she has over dudes. Whether seismic is better than dudes or not is something I'll have to see in testing. As of now, though, I think being able to win outside of combat damage is very important.

I agree that the big dudes don't seem to be pulling as much of their weight as they used to, but with RiP and Deathrite running around all over the place, I'm not sure that making the deck even more graveyard-focused with Deathrite and PFires is the right direction though. Between trying to run this and TinFins over the past few months, I can tell you doesn't feel like a great time to be heavily dependent on your graveyard as a resource. Last time I played Loam, the one card that really felt like it pulled its weight against Miracles was Koth, but he seems to have dropped off everyone's radar. I'd kinda like to go in a similar grindier direction and just clog up the board with Planeswalkers, but then I have to wonder what the point of still building around Loam is.

[Antonius]

So we should just play punishing jund?

Yes, and I'm sure that most stone blade players, upon seeing the brainstorms, jaces, stps and snapcasters in their deck think, "oh, what's the point! I might as well play miracles!"
...
don't get it twisted. I'm simply proposing playing the most robust and effective tools conducive to our strategy. If those are common to another deck, so the fuck what?

The reason to play this over jund is because discard is pretty unimpressive past turn five.

[Megadeus]

my point being that the core of pfire and liliana seems like it may just be better in jund. especially if you don'trun seismicassault

[Antonius]

my point being that the core of pfire and liliana seems like it may just be better in jund. especially if you don'trun seismicassault

How effective liliana and punishing burnwillows is in jund has nothing to do with how effective it is in our deck. And I assure you--they are extremely effective here. And what does seismic assault have to do with anything?

[Megadeus]

How effective liliana and punishing burnwillows is in jund has nothing to do with how effective it is in our deck. And I assure you--they are extremely effective here. And what does seismic assault have to do with anything?

if you are running pfire and lily, and not running assault, then what kind of deck are you playing? at that point you are just a bad jund deck.

[Megadeus]

I didnt say anything due to being disappointed last week, but I only got to play 2 rounds (odd luck and turnouts). Both against the same player playing Hypergenesis.

I played him in round 1, and he T2 SnT me, I put in a Bob, he puts in Omni, casts griselbrand, draws cards, cast emrakul. Well that was fun. Game 2, I board out Chalices (due to him not playing 1 drops) and bring in Thalias, and my one of Inquisition of Kozilek. My reasoning was that he was so fast that Wishing for my discard spell would never happen. So I would just hope to draw it. I plop down thalia on T1, and he is never able to hit the 5 mana he needs to cast his cascade spell, then pay the one for the spell he cascades into. Game 3, it was another quick one where he T2 Hypergens me and I die a horrid death to Progenitus and Emily.

Round 2 I got a bye, and round 3 due to the low turnout I was actually able to draw into top 8... (worked hard for that one!) I did play a game for fun against Junk Depths. It wasnt close. I had chalice on one, plopped down a KOTR, and Devastating dreams. He had three swords to plowshares in his hand. lol

Top 8: I play against the same Hypergenesis player. I actually win game 1. I figured out that chalice on 0 is pretty sweet against a hyper genesis. I get a KOTR down, and beat the living shit out of him with that and a Bob. Game 2 is a very very very tight game. I board out abrupt decays this time (because they are actually dead) and bring in thalia, but leave my inquisition in the board this time because I figure chalice on 0 is enough to slow down super fast hands. But I did also bring in my perish so I would have an out to progenitus.

He goes for a turn 2 Show and tell (I have a chalice at 0), and I have a Thalia and 2 KOTR in my hand. My board however is awkward with a badlands and a grove of the burnwillows. I drop a KOTR hoping that he just has emrakul. He does, but I still need a forest/plains to find karakas. I draw a cycling land, cycle it, and draw my singleton basic forest like a boss. I play it and sacrifice it to find a karakas and bounce emrakul. Next turn he KGrips my chalice (I think I may have misplayed by not casting thalia) and then on his turn hypergenesis into griselbrand and emrakul. I am able to bounce emrakul again, but have to take a hit off of Griselbrand. He draws 7 and passes. This turn I bounce Griselbrand, and attack him to something like 3 I think. On his turn though he is able to cast hypergenesis off of his cascade again, and he puts in the trio of fatties, griselbrand, emrakul and progenitus. I actually have drawn my perish at this point so I sadly have to cast it (and kill my own KOTRs) and bounce emrakul with Karakas again, but I dont have any way to get rid of griselbrand sadly and I die to him the next turn.

Game 3 I have to mull to 5 and it is a bad 5 and I lose horribly because he has force for my sylvan library. Looking back my 7 was decent but didnt have any hate so I was reluctant to keep it. It was: 4 Lands, Mox Diamond, Sylvan Library, KOTR. I thought that I may be able to do better by finding hate so I mulled, got a no lander, then mulled to 5 and then promply died to a SnT emrakul. Yay magic? That 7 was a good hand looking back at it, I just got a little bit greedy. (and stupid)

[Aggro_zombies]

if you are running pfire and lily, and not running assault,
I guess my question is: why even pose this hypothetical? Antonius's list on the previous page has three Assaults in it in addition to Lili and Fire. Is that deck worse than Jund, or sufficiently different on paper and in play style that it occupies a different niche?

EDIT: @Antonius: I really don't like Raging Ravine all that much in this deck. Four mana to simply attack - which deprives you of another mana - is way too much. It's also interesting that your deck actually presents fewer high-value targets for a BUG deck's Abrupt Decays than a normal Aggro Loam deck, which conversely makes Decay much, much better. Now your opponent knows that he can just sit on it to get your Assaults instead of having to decide whether to use it on a Crusher and risk getting Terravore'd or Assaulted or sit on it and potentially take a hit from an [Enormous]/[Enormous] Crusher.

I also really, really, really don't like slowing down as a solution in this format unless you are running Brainstorm. The longer the game goes, the more chances there are for something to go catastrophically wrong and destroy your hard-won board position. That's a large part of why Stax is bad: it can lock up the board just fine, but it can't actually win unless the opponent is willing to concede. Your deck basically needs Assault to win in anything approaching a timely manner, which I really don't like.

EDIT 2: Though that is probably just a fundamental difference in play style. It could be completely fine, I'll just never actually like it.

EDIT 3: Scrolling up, Kich867 sort of hit my line of thought on the head. Life from the Loam, as a card, has not really aged very well thanks to planeswalkers and power creep, so it follows that decks based around it are not going to age well either. Going for big midrange power plays like the four-color version does may really be the only remaining viable version of Aggro Loam in today's metagame, but it would help if more than one player could reliably do well with that build of the deck in big tournaments. Or is it getting play in Europe? I know the Russians are (or were) fond of a straight Naya version of the deck.

EDIT 4: I should mention there's a caveat to EDIT 3. Aggro Loam's prey has always been the fair decks of the format. Built properly, this deck should go over the top of those decks every time. Antonius's complaint - that the deck is soft to true control decks like Miracles - is pretty standard for midrange decks: they have just enough control to beat aggro but not enough aggro to actually threaten control, so they just sort of sit there and take it until the control player feels like ending the game. Taking this deck in a more controlling direction probably doesn't help all that much versus decks like Miracles because Brainstorm and Jace let them play the control role much more easily than you can - they can get the card advantage without having to spend as much mana or try quite as hard, which mitigates some of the inevitability Fires and Assaults are supposed to give you.

[Megadeus]

I guess my question is: why even pose this hypothetical? Antonius's list on the previous page has three Assaults in it in addition to Lili and Fire. Is that deck worse than Jund, or sufficiently different on paper and in play style that it occupies a different niche?


I was actually talking about this comment:

"I -really- don't think going grindier is the way to go nor do you need Punishing Fire / Seismic. I do however, think that Seismic Assault is antiquated after the tournament. I never actually killed anyone with it, I just killed creatures, and Punishing / Grove is far more easily setup and functions separately from Seismic Assault. However, being able to Dredge the shit out of loam in order to find the entire combo is wonderful and profitable, so that's cool. I'll have to fix my mana base accordingly."

But I do realize that I did an awful job of noting what I was commenting on. It is difficult to post on my phone sometimes...

But if you are going to be GRB deck, with PFires and Liliana, but not run Seismic Assault, then why even play a loam strategy? At that point you might as well cast Bloodbraid elves.

[Kich867]

I was actually talking about this comment:

"I -really- don't think going grindier is the way to go nor do you need Punishing Fire / Seismic. I do however, think that Seismic Assault is antiquated after the tournament. I never actually killed anyone with it, I just killed creatures, and Punishing / Grove is far more easily setup and functions separately from Seismic Assault. However, being able to Dredge the shit out of loam in order to find the entire combo is wonderful and profitable, so that's cool. I'll have to fix my mana base accordingly."

But I do realize that I did an awful job of noting what I was commenting on. It is difficult to post on my phone sometimes...

But if you are going to be GRB deck, with PFires and Liliana, but not run Seismic Assault, then why even play a loam strategy? At that point you might as well cast Bloodbraid elves.

You may have gotten a little confused here. I'm the one agreeing with you that running PFires with Liliana is basically just a bad Punishing Jund. The upside to PFires Loam is that you can dredge aggressively to find it, whereas if you dredge past a Seismic Assault, it's gone. The rather massive difference however, between Punishing Jund and Devastating Loam is that Loam is -far- more of a resource denial strategy. And it's unequivocally harder to play. I'm just drawing hands over and over with Punishing Jund and am baffled at how not-at-all-joking people are about how easy the deck is to play.

I don't run Liliana in my main deck (2 in the side) because she doesn't do anything particularly better than any of my other cards. Also, double black in a deck that already needs double red and green, no thanks. I'm going to be tweaking the maindeck to fit Punishing Fires in over Seismic Assault and the manabase to accommodate the groves. List will likely look something like this:

//Creatures: 12
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Dark Confidant
2x Countryside Crusher
2x Terravore

//Spells: 14
3x Punishing Fire
4x Life from the Loam
3x Devastating Dreams
3x Abrupt Decay
1x Maelstrom Pulse

//Artifacts: 8
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Mox Diamond

//Lands: 26
4x Wasteland
4x Grove of the Burnwillows
4x Taiga
2x Badlands
1x Bayou
3x Forgotten Cave
2x Tranquil Thicket
4x Wooded Foothills
2x Bloodstained Mire

//Sideboard: 15
1x Devastating Dreams
2x Liliana of the Veil
2x Golgari Charm
3x Hymn to Tourach
3x Thoughtseize
2x Nihil Spellbomb
2x Surgical Extraction

Seems pretty good.

[Aggro_zombies]

Loam isn't that hard to play, though? Or maybe it's just me.

Assault is really the only reason to run Loam in Legacy. Any of the card's other functions are either of low or variable value or are better accomplished by other cards that have been printed since Loam came out.

Also worth noting that P. Fire ups the amount of fodder you're okay randomly discarding to Dreams.

[Megadeus]

seems like a very solid list. I see what you are saying, but in a tournament setting, you basically have a jund deck that instead of discard as disruption, you play chalice, and instead of deathrite, you play mox diamond. I mean you have loam as your card advantage engine, but overall, you are the same deck as jund, except you open yourself up to losing to random graveyard hate. And yes jund is comically easyto play, but over a long tournament, the easier the deck, the less mistakes you will make

[Kich867]

Loam isn't that hard to play, though? Or maybe it's just me.

Assault is really the only reason to run Loam in Legacy. Any of the card's other functions are either of low or variable value or are better accomplished by other cards that have been printed since Loam came out.

Also worth noting that P. Fire ups the amount of fodder you're okay randomly discarding to Dreams.

Loam's decision trees are substantially more complicated I feel. Maximizing damage with Countryside Crusher and whether or not to dredge have always been things to really consider. I often find myself taking note of the likelihood of hitting certain cards if I dredge loam--when to start dredging it or not is also a fairly complicated metric to maximize.

Devastating Dreams is also a wildly complicated card to play when you end up having to start discarding real cards and not land, etc. I think replacing Seismic Assault however makes the dredging decision far easier, it's almost explicitly correct to dredge loam unless you have the engine for PFire in hand since dredging sets up both pieces.

[Megadeus]

Loam isn't that hard to play, though? Or maybe it's just me.

Assault is really the only reason to run Loam in Legacy. Any of the card's other functions are either of low or variable value or are better accomplished by other cards that have been printed since Loam came out.

Also worth noting that P. Fire ups the amount of fodder you're okay randomly discarding to Dreams.

I disagree that seismic assault is the only reason to play loam. The cycle lands make your loam into a card advatage engine, you can wastelock someome, or ensure you are making land drops. Hell lands is a very good deck and it doesn't run assault. I think punishing fire combo has outdated assault.

[Aggro_zombies]

I disagree that seismic assault is the only reason to play loam. The cycle lands make your loam into a card advatage engine, you can wastelock someome, or ensure you are making land drops. Hell lands is a very good deck and it doesn't run assault. I think punishing fire combo has outdated assault.
This is what I meant when I said Loam's other functions were low-value or better accomplished through other cards:

1) Jace TMS is better than Loam at providing long-term card drawing. GSZ, Sylvan Library, and Bob provide similar card advantage outside of blue. There's no reason to spend 1CCCG to get a Jace's Ingenuity in this format.

2) Wastelocking takes time to set up (trying to do so early hampers your development for an uncertain outcome) and flat-out doesn't work against some decks. It also loses a lot of its luster in a world of Deathrite Shamans since they get two mana off the card if you Wasteland them (and you lose one Wasteland).

3) Ensuring land drops is more of a side benefit and not a compelling reason to run Loam, otherwise other slow decks would run Loam in the main or out of the board. Depending on your build you're running something like 6-8 fetches and 5-6 fetchable lands anyway, so it's not like it's thinning your library to any great degree. If anything, you're doing more work just by dredging than you are by pulling lands.

I know what Loam does, I'm saying that it's not relevant anymore. Power creep and planeswalkers have long since dethroned Loam as the King of Long-Term Card Advantage.

[Megadeus]

I'm just saying that you talk as if loam is not a valid strategy at all without seismic assault. DRS has done a good job of weakening loam, but it is still a powerful strategy. it is just a different angle. and waste locking is a valid strategy against a lot of decks. also devastating dreams is a fucking blowout. everytime

[Antonius]

I'm the one agreeing with you that running PFires with Liliana is basically just a bad Punishing Jund.

I'M still trying to understand the logical jump inherent in this statement... what is the meaning of being a "bad jund deck"? are you saying that punishing fires and liliana are ONLY good in Jund? Or that Jund is the only deck that can run them profitably? Both are nonsense. Jund runs punishing fires and liliana because they are the most robust, effective removal-plus options in their colors. You've already listed the reasons why punishing fires can be quite good in this deck. Liliana has good synergy with loam, serves as removal and can create a mire of a boardstate that just swallows up your opponent in incremental CA.


@Antonius: I really don't like Raging Ravine all that much in this deck. Four mana to simply attack - which deprives you of another mana - is way too much.

It's an experiment. Five mana is a lot to attack , but as a pure beater ravine can end the game in five turns. Volrath's getting back crusher ends the game in four.. The fact that it's a manland also means it is not vulnerable sorcery speed removal out there and can be protected from instants by Liliana's +1. It also punishes people severely for tapping out to drop a planeswalker. It doesn't have the same flexibility as volrath's getting back bob but being able to tap for color is a big deal.


It's also interesting that your deck actually presents fewer high-value targets for a BUG deck's Abrupt Decays than a normal Aggro Loam deck, which conversely makes Decay much, much better. Now your opponent knows that he can just sit on it to get your Assaults

If you're executing your strategy as intended, then your opponent will be put into situations where they have abrupt a Liliana that's already edicted them. If they sit on that shit then they're going to have to deal with losing a card a turn, the occasional creature and eventually having to choose between a pile of green sources and the pile of black sources. The new rules makes liliana even stronger for us, as game states with lilianas on both sides of the battle field or with a spent liliana on the battlefield and another in the pocket are going to heavily favor the guy that's resolving life from the loam.

[JeffHoogland]

Howdy Folks,

Just wanted to poke my head into this thread and offer to answer any questions folks might have on my four color variation of this deck. I'm fairly certain that something close to what I have been playing is the current optimal build of aggro loam. Why? Because I've been having consistent results with the deck since I finally got the hang of grinding out games with it. I've been playing this as my legacy deck of choice since December of 2012 and have put up the following results with it:

SCG Columbus (First large event with the deck) - Top 64
SCG Indy - Top 4
SCG Atlanta - Top 4
SCG Milwaukee - Top 2
SCG Nashville - Top 32
SCG STL - Top 32
SCG Columbus - Top 16

I've also won a few local 5 and 6 round events. In fact the only event I've "scrubbed" since I've gotten the hang of the deck was SCG KC where I fell on my face with a 2-4 drop.

You can find the current 75 I am playing here (http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/midsummer-knights-dream-1/).

Cheers,
~Jeff Hoogland

[Megadeus]

I have a couple of questions/comments.

I have found the single plateau to be horribly awkward at times. What makes you want every single land that is fetchable via foothills?

Also what spurned you to play slaughter games? is it just due to the fact that some decks just auto lose to it?

Also watching a bunch of your matches, there were a whole lot of times where you seemed to have a very mediocre hand and yet you just keep dredging loam. What is your general thoughts on when to dredge and when not too dredge?

[JeffHoogland]

I have found the single plateau to be horribly awkward at times. What makes you want every single land that is fetchable via foothills?

To say my mana base is greedy is an understatement. There are a number of times that I find myself needing to fetch a land that makes both R/W mana - so I play a land that makes both of those colors. If Wooded Foothills could fetch a Scrubland I'd be playing one of those as well.


Also what spurned you to play slaughter games? is it just due to the fact that some decks just auto lose to it?

Pretty much this. The only way Sneak and Show really beats the 4 Color Loam is to get a Sneak Attack down - so if we can games that it is pretty much game over for them. It is also an ace VS high tide, hive mind, and Lands to name a few other decks it hoses.


Also watching a bunch of your matches, there were a whole lot of times where you seemed to have a very mediocre hand and yet you just keep dredging loam. What is your general thoughts on when to dredge and when not too dredge?

My general rule of thumb is that unless I need a non-land spell to prevent myself from dieing in the next turn or two I will pretty much dredge my loam every time. The reason for this is that we play five cycle lands. Eventually you will dredge into one of these and then you get the best of both worlds - dredging a loam and drawing a card every turn.

Cheers,
~Jeff

[Megadeus]

To say my mana base is greedy is an understatement. There are a number of times that I find myself needing to fetch a land that makes both R/W mana - so I play a land that makes both of those colors. If Wooded Foothills could fetch a Scrubland I'd be playing one of those as well.

That is a fair point. I have found basically every land that doesnt produce green to be awkward at times, but I guess it happens.



Pretty much this. The only way Sneak and Show really beats the 4 Color Loam is to get a Sneak Attack down - so if we can games that it is pretty much game over for them. It is also an ace VS high tide, hive mind, and Lands to name a few other decks it hoses.

I can see that. I personally love cranial effects so I like the change and I was really wishing that I had it last wednesday against hypergenesis.

My general rule of thumb is that unless I need a non-land spell to prevent myself from dieing in the next turn or two I will pretty much dredge my loam every time. The reason for this is that we play five cycle lands. Eventually you will dredge into one of these and then you get the best of both worlds - dredging a loam and drawing a card every turn.

This makes a lot of sense. One of the locals that posts on here was telling me how I was misplaying by not dredging when I had 2 cycle lands because at that point loam turns into a draw 2.

Cheers,
~Jeff

And one other question that I have been thinking of for awhile but forgot about earlier, have you ever considered playing another green sun or two and maybe playing like singletons of Pridemage, and scavenging ooze? Or maybe just like an Ooze? I realize that deck space is very tight in this deck, but I just love having tool boxes and have been toying with the idea of Scavenging Ooze as a one of.

[JeffHoogland]

And one other question that I have been thinking of for awhile but forgot about earlier, have you ever considered playing another green sun or two and maybe playing like singletons of Pridemage, and scavenging ooze? Or maybe just like an Ooze? I realize that deck space is very tight in this deck, but I just love having tool boxes and have been toying with the idea of Scavenging Ooze as a one of.

At one point this deck had 2-3 GSZ, 1 Pirdemage and 1 Ooze. As slots got tight, things got trimmed. Pridemage became much less relevant with the addition of Abrupt Decay and I felt Ooze didn't really lend and advantage in any of the deck's bad match ups to warrant keeping him around.

~Jeff

[Megadeus]

At one point this deck had 2-3 GSZ, 1 Pirdemage and 1 Ooze. As slots got tight, things got trimmed. Pridemage became much less relevant with the addition of Abrupt Decay and I felt Ooze didn't really lend and advantage in any of the deck's bad match ups to warrant keeping him around.

~Jeff

Huh I did not know that it had those at the beginning. So Ive been backtracking then... And I can agree. Ooze helps in fair matches where we should already be very good. Thanks for the feedback man! And I love the deck. It is wicked fun to play!

[Richard Cheese]

Jeff,

How do you find the Miracles matchup? Also, why the single Nantuko Monastery? I'm assuming it works as a recurring blocker/Jace-immune beater, but why it over Factory or something that could be used for mana like Treetop Village or even Stirring Wildwood?

[JeffHoogland]

How do you find the Miracles matchup?

This is a very skill intense match up on both sides. It gives both players a lot of room to screw up. This is the one fair match up where I board in my hate bears. Thalia and Teeg put a lot of pressure on the UW player and only hinder us a small amount (because Loam isn't super good in this match up - too many basics).


Also, why the single Nantuko Monastery? I'm assuming it works as a recurring blocker/Jace-immune beater, but why it over Factory or something that could be used for mana like Treetop Village or even Stirring Wildwood?

I think Monastery is lightyears better than Factory. 4/4 First Strike allows it to beat loads of creatures a 2/2 (or 3/3) fold against. First Strike also means it beats a Batterskull Germ. I've tested Raging Ravine and Treeptop in this slot, but the entering tapped is a huge draw back when five of our lands already do this. Only so much room to have slow starts in legacy.

~Jeff

[Megadeus]

Jeff,

Do you ever wish you had more fetchlands in the deck? When I played this deck back in the day, getting back fetchlands with Loam was one of the keys to making the deck consistent. I would imagine this would be more necessary in a four color build. Would it be wrong to cut something like the Monastery and Maze for a couple more fetches?

I actually have personally cut Maze of Ith for another grove of the burnwillows. I think I will be going back to the Maze, but not having Maze as my only land in my opening hand has been kind of nice.

[Megadeus]

Also went 2-2 tonight with 4 color. Changes from hooglands list: +1 Grove of the Burnwillows, +2 Countryside Crushers; -1 Maze of Ith, -2 Bobs. I couldnt find 2 more Bobs again so I played the next best thing! ;)

Round 1: Maverick Phazonmuant from the source

Game 1: This one goes really really long. Almost 40 minutes worth. We start off jockeying for position, I get down early PFire and Grove, and have loam engine going. He has an early batter skull. I finally am able to kill off his stoneforge mystics, and get rid of the germ token with a Teeg out so he cant replay it. I also have Chalice at 1. At some point he plays Ooze and makes it like 7/7, but I have a PFire in hand and block his Ooze with a KOTR and fire it to kill it off. Finally I get down a couple of country side crushers and get a dreams to fire off. Despite him being at ~45 life I beat him down finally.

Game 2: He gets down KOTR + Sylvan Safekeeper and im somewhat stumbling on mana. He had surgical'd my PFires but I chump block for a coule of turns until I rip a Wish. Wish for Perish and swing back the momentum in my favor and finally dreams him out of the game.

1-0

Round 2: Junk Depths

Game 1 he makes a Turn 3 marit Lage, I have countryside crusher who is big but he cant race a 20/20 sadly...

Game 2 I mistakenly don't play the chalice in my hand and instead opt to try to Bob plsu Sylvan Library to gain card advantage. He ends up making a turn 4 Lage and I dont find the Karakas.

1-1

Round 3: 4 color... Stuff. Nedleeds from the source

He had a build somewhat similar to Team Italia, with the standard RWB stuff, but splash green for decay.

Game 1:I get down 2 KOTR after a chalice on 1 and they become 10/10's after a devastating dreams.

Game 2: He has a hand with double inquisition, but he draws some crap while I get a loam engine with 2 cycle lands and PFires going. He never really draws anything and just scoops when I get a crusher out.

2-1

Top 8: Miracles w/Blood Moon Alphastryk from the source

Game 1 goes very long. I get a chalice on one after he forces my first chalice. He terminuses away my country side crusher who was about to go huge. But I green sun for 3, then as I am about to slam my KOTR into play I remember how good teeg + Chalice is vs him. Put in Teeg and slowly my Bob + Teeg knock him down to 3. He DSpheres my chalice of the void, and I mistakenly decay it, for some reason thinking it comes back with one counter... He STPs my Teeg, then plays Energy field. On my turn I could Dreams for one which would kill my Bob, but I have PFire to kill him, to get rid of the field but I dont realize it until after I ship the turn. He plays RIP and locks me out for a LONG time. After him getting a couple of small entreats and me killing off the angels My Sylvan Library finally digs into an Abrupt decay and my KOTR and Crusher that have been sitting around kill him.

Game 2 I mull to six but keep a sweet one of double mox diamond, 3 lands and crusher. Oh yeah. All in baby lol. I T1 Crusher. He plays EE for 0 and blows up my Moxes, countryside gets huge, but unfortunately I dont ever hit another land drop. My crusher actually got to lethal on T3 thanks to me milling like 7 lands in a row off of his upkeep trigger. Unfortunately he Terminuses and I die from Jace. This is definitely a game where having the Bobs would have been excellent.

Game 3 I am tilted a bit after that raping and he goes T2 Meddling Mage naming Decay while I have 2 decays in hand. T3 Meddling Mage naming Burning Wish, and T4 Jace into T5 Blood Moon. Yep. Sad day as the awkward mana base finally gets me and the whole game I had Teeg and KOTR stuck in my hand with only Grove of the burnwillows, Dryad Arbor, and Bayou in play.

2-2

Overall the deck was great in my opinion as usual. Im sure that if I had access to more Bobs I would have 3-1'd, and if I had been playing better probably 4-0'd. The other guy at the store playing the deck 3-1'd I believe (Beating the dreaded omni-show on the way). This deck is a very powerful deck. Blood moon is rough, but at major events it isnt a card that you really have to worry about too much, and with Mox Diamonds plus a basic forest, it is not too difficult to get Decay mana. It was kind of funny that I played against 3 other major sourcers though... Oh well. Had a great night, the deck is still wicked fun to play and hopefully next week I can borrow Bobs!

Also does anyone have any suggestions as to other possible replacements for Bobs just incase? I think Crushers are solid as being huge and stuff was sweet, but Im always down to try other things!

[L0cke]

Round 2: Junk Depths --That was me, fyi


I am on here too, I just don't post nearly as much as the rest of them. And game two you could have not died that turn by instead of cycling and searching for karakas, just punishing firing my D.Shaman with your mox diamonds, making a land drop then wishing for chainer's edict and edicting the token, which would have left me with basic forest in play to your 4 lands and 2 mox diamonds.

[Megadeus]

I am on here too, I just don't post nearly as much as the rest of them. And game two you could have not died that turn by instead of cycling and searching for karakas, just punishing firing my D.Shaman with your mox diamonds, making a land drop then wishing for chainer's edict and edicting the token, which would have left me with basic forest in play to your 4 lands and 2 mox diamonds.

Damn did not realize everyone at Super was on the source lol. But see! So many mis plays and I still somehow win games... This is a powerful deck. I cant wait until Im not totally awful at this game. Like I said, I think that if I had played tighter then I would have been 3-1 or 4-0 tonight. Sadly between not having key cards like Bobs and making misplays I lose games... Its rough but you know. First World problems.

[Tyrio]

I'm the other guy who has been playing Hoogland Loam at the store Megadeus is at. My list is the same as Hoogland's except for +1 Volrath's Stronghold main instead of the basic Forest. Tonight I also put the Bojuka Bog main (cutting a Burning Wish) because it's great against roughly third of our LGS. I replaced it in the sideboard with a Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale because I can. Unfortunately my game memory is a lot worse than Megadeus's, so bear with me.
~~~~
Round 1 was against Jund Zombies. It's a pretty sweet deck; it has Carrion Feeders, Lotleth Trolls, Cabal Therapies, Basking Rootwallas, Vengevines, Gravecrawlers, Bloodghasts and Angers in it. I believe I boarded out -1 Teeg and -1 Loam for +1 Decay and +1 Tabernacle.

Game 1 he kept a sketchy keep and his only play was a Gravecrawler for some time. I went to town with a Bob and a Knight and he never drew a green source for Decay before my Knight got lethal around T5~

Game 2 he has a Pithing Needle for Wasteland and I respond with a Chalice on one. He then has two Lotleth Trolls that I simply can't deal with. I cycle some removal on his trolls to fog them for a few turns but I can't draw a Knight to block or a Wish (for Perish) and I eventually die after choosing to not dredge for a few turns. At one point I could have potentially Volrath'd back my Bob to draw more cards, but I didn't think I'd get more than 1 draw out of Bob before I had to chump.

Game 3 he starts off pretty quickly with Lotleth Trolling away an Anger and a Rootwalla and bashing for 5 on like turn 2. I hastily assemble Loam and get a Knight into play. He discards a Filth and bashes me down to 6 with a Bloodghast, Rootwalla and the Troll in play. On my turn I eat my Bayou with my Knight to turn off swampwalk. On his return swing I go to 1 after Mazing his Troll and eating a Rootwalla pump. I untap and Devastate his Dreams, eating all my lands and keeping my Maze against his Bloodghast and get there.

1-0

Round 2 was against Omnitell. The player piloting it swapped decks with Phazonmuant for the tournament (he has like 90% money rate with Maverick). I boarded -3 Decay and -1 Punishing Fire for +3 Thalia, +1 Teeg.

Game 1 on the draw I keep a hand with Chalice, and proceed to rip the Mox Diamond to play it turn 1. He brainstorms but bricks on the Force. Turn 2 I play out a Knight and turn 3 I Devastate his Dreams (off the top) to put the game away with Knight.

Game 2 I Chalice on turn 2. He Show and Tells in his Omniscience but I put in Teeg. He has the Cunning Wish and I assume I'm just dead to Eladamri's Call->Emrakul, but apparently Phazonmuant's list didn't have the Emrakul main. My opponent showed his inexperience with the deck by boarding in the Wipe Away, so his only answers to Teeg in the board were Slaughter Pact and Vision Charm. He gets the Vision Charm, and it promptly gets countered by Chalice. We laugh about over the next 10 turns as Teeg slowly, slowly beats him to death with his walking stick.

2-0

We had 17 people tonight, but for some reason are only playing 3 rounds. I ID with Alphastryk playing UW Miracles. We play it out for fun. I boarded -3 Punishing Fire, -1 Loam and -1 Knight for +3 Thalia, +1 Teeg and +1 ADecay.

Game 1 is a huge grindfest with him playing out all his RIPs and multiple Jaces. I manage to stick an early Sylvan and eventually filter my way to a Burning Wish->Reverent Silence for 2 RIPs, saving an Abrupt Decay for his last. I grind my way through Jaces with a Dreadbore and then a Punishing Fire after he uses it as a 4 mana Unsummon against Bob. In the end I manage to kill him with Nantuko Monastery.

Game 2 he sticks a turn 4~ Blood Moon and I've got all these sweet Wastemountains and Nantuko Mountains. I start taking 8 from my Libraries as I dig for Mox Diamond and when I finally find one he Forces it. The turn after he assembles Helm-RIP.

Game 3 I keep a hand with turn 1 Thalia, but manage to brick on lands for the next 6 turns. Top 8 is announced then but this game was most definitely a loss.

2-0-1 (but really probably 2-1)

Quarterfinals of top 8 was against slightly budget Goblins (no Ports). I boarded -1 Teeg and -1 Bojuka Bog for +1 ADecay and +1 Tabernacle.

Game 1 I mulligan and begin with double Mox Diamond into Loam, then a turn 2 Knight. He has a T2 Vial into Stingscourger into Ringleader, but it's too slow when I Devastate his Dreams, leaving him with only a Vial. My Knight 2 shots him after I Punish his feebly Vialed in blockers.

Game 2 he as a T1 Vial, but I have a T1 Abrupt Decay for it. He has a Tin-Street Hooligan to nuke my Mox, and my hand is suddenly a lot worse with 2 Bobs, 2 Tranquil Thickets and a Taiga in play. I draw a GSZ and use it to get a Dryad Arbor and play out a sad Thicket. He Wastes my Taiga and battles. I find a Maze of Ith on my turn and play it. He makes a Goblin Chieftain and I Maze one of his attackers going to 16. I rip a Wooded Foothills, grabbing a Badlands to play Bob. He makes a Lackey and battles with everyone. I Maze his Lackey and decide that I need to trade my Bob away (???) away for his Tin-Street. I play out another Bob, desperately needing to find white mana for the Knight in my hand. On his turn he makes a Goblin Matron and finds a Ringleader with it. He attacks with everyone again and this time I don't trade my Bob away (Mazing Lackey). Bob finds me white mana and I play a 6/6 Knight. His Ringleader finds him a Kik-Jiki, a Krenko and another Ringleader but I manage to Devastate his Dreams when I untap and 2-shot him with Knight.


3-0-1 Top 4 split!

TL;DR Hoogland Loam is super sweet and super powerful. I think it has pretty advantageous matchups against most of the field sans combo and completely crushes other fair dork decks. Wrathageddon is too stronk.

[Kich867]

Played 10 rounds against Omnitell tonight, went 8-2 against it with the list I posted previously. I'm convinced this isn't a bad matchup whatsoever for my list if I have a chalice or devastating dreams, and is wildly in my favor if I have both. The only games I lost is when he had all 3 combo pieces in hand and had it by turn 2. However, this is highly unlikely, and as I've found, they -rarely- have it.

It's simply too slow of a combo deck--it's a 3 card combo, they don't run many sol lands, their only relevant counter is force, chalice on one forces them to naturally draw the combo, devastating dreams on their second turn is often a blow out. More than one game I blew up both his islands, he had 2 more islands in hand, but never found a third source of mana and just died to Goyfs. I brought surgicals in every game and found them often which was lucky, they don't do a ton here, but more than one time I simply confirmed that there was no force and jammed Dreams on them.

Between Chalice, Dreams, and the potential for a fast clock I don't think combo is that terrible for me. Also--if you're not playing Hooglands list to have a shot at combo, I guess I'm wondering what you're doing? That's literally the only upside to splashing white, to have a better combo matchup--you get Knight to tutor Karakas and Bojuka Bog, and you get Teeg to shut down most other combo, and I guess Thalia out of the board.

Inherently, running Chalice means you have a decent shot at getting there vs combo. I've found early Devastating Dreams to be wildly effective against most combo since they often only run like 15-18 land.

However, so far with my list I've beaten Sneak And Show, Omnitell (pretty positive this is way in our favor), and ANT. I'm confident elves is a bye, TES and ANT get shit on by dreams and chalice, high tide I need to test, I want more testing vs sneak and show (only beat hollywood in tournament).

[Megadeus]

@Tyrio Go go Wrathageddon! Im nervous as to if and how the store responds to us doing so well...

@Kich sounds about right. What I have learned just from watching various matches is that the deck generally needs its hand massage spells to find the combo since it does need a few cards to go off, and also, similar to storm decks, it needs to actually have a fair amount of cards in hand to go off. I did not realize how good Liliana is vs that deck. It seems like SnT is basically a storm deck that doesnt have a storm engine to actually win the game unless they are topdecking like a champ. At least Sneak variants had the ability to oops a griselbrand or emrakul into play and win on the back of T2 fatty. Like you said, chalice plus a bit of either land hate or a quick clock is actually good enough most of the time barring insane top decks.

[Megadeus]

Between Chalice, Dreams, and the potential for a fast clock I don't think combo is that terrible for me. Also--if you're not playing Hooglands list to have a shot at combo, I guess I'm wondering what you're doing? That's literally the only upside to splashing white, to have a better combo matchup--you get Knight to tutor Karakas and Bojuka Bog, and you get Teeg to shut down most other combo, and I guess Thalia out of the board.


Does anyone in here run white but not run Thalia and Teeg? And I have beaten Omni and Tin Fins (havent played TES or ANT yet) with Hoogloam (HAH!). But Im sure that the tin fins game is similar to what I would be facing when it comes to TES at least. Chalice on 1 is a tad weaker (but still very strong) vs ANT. I did lose to hyper genesis but that dude was a sack... And the first time I played vs him I misboarded. I dont hate the combo MU. Its definitely rough, but most of the time it is very winnable.

[HammafistRoob]

@ Megadues- Don't cut Maze, it basically gives all your Knights vigilance along with being VERY solid against a lot of decks.

@Jeff H- Do you think it's possible that -1 GSZ, -1 Arbor, +1 Grove, +1 Bob is where you want to be? I'm not seeing GSZ being that great here, except mainly being Knight #5. I know it fetches a few combo hate pieces in the board, but you can just jam more Thalias instead. Just a thought, stay golden.

[JeffHoogland]

@ Megadues- Don't cut Maze, it basically gives all your Knights vigilance along with being VERY solid against a lot of decks.

This right here. It allows for SO much flexibility.


@Jeff H- Do you think it's possible that -1 GSZ, -1 Arbor, +1 Grove, +1 Bob is where you want to be? I'm not seeing GSZ being that great here, except mainly being Knight #5. I know it fetches a few combo hate pieces in the board, but you can just jam more Thalias instead. Just a thought, stay golden.

I really do not think this is right. GSZ+Arbor acts as a "mox" #5, Knight #5 and a Teeg #2 main deck. Personally, I've never wanted a 3rd Grove. I really don't want the 4th Bob back. Since I cut back to three the number of games where 2 of them gum up my hand has gone way down.

Also Dryad Arbor allows your Wooded Foothills to block Goblin Lackies/Unflipped Delvers. Plus it protects your active Knight from edict effects.


Do you ever wish you had more fetchlands in the deck? When I played this deck back in the day, getting back fetchlands with Loam was one of the keys to making the deck consistent. I would imagine this would be more necessary in a four color build. Would it be wrong to cut something like the Monastery and Maze for a couple more fetches?

As mentioned above - Maze is never a cut. It allows for a lot of Utility. Just remember when you are counting your lands - Maze counts as a spell. Another fetch *might* be useful, but honestly I already find myself running out of fetchable lands quite often in most games with my current list. Between Loam/Knight I generally find them pretty quickly. Plus all my existing lands serve a purpose - not sure I'd want to cut any of them.

Someone commented on missing Bobs - I have actually been kicking around cutting these... Once the new legend rules go into effect I might be trying:

-3 Bob
+1 Sylvan
+1 Dark Depths
+1 Stage

I'm also kicking around playing 61-62 cards in my main deck. The increase simply being main decking the Bog and the 4th Decay I keep in the board right now.

~Jeff

[JeffHoogland]

However, so far with my list I've beaten Sneak And Show, Omnitell (pretty positive this is way in our favor), and ANT. I'm confident elves is a bye, TES and ANT get shit on by dreams and chalice, high tide I need to test, I want more testing vs sneak and show (only beat hollywood in tournament).

Pretty much every deck on this list also gets hosed by a Slaughter Games as well :)

~Jeff

[Kich867]

Yeah, I've been thinking about cutting the surgical for slaughter games which is most likely what will be happening soon.

[Claymore]

Can you reliably get to 4 mana fast enough against the combo deck though? I suppose Chalice at 1 will buy time, which also would go against your Surgicals.

[JeffHoogland]

Can you reliably get to 4 mana fast enough against the combo deck though? I suppose Chalice at 1 will buy time, which also would go against your Surgicals.

Chalice on something buys times normally. Plus you can Games turn 3 on the play - fast enough some times all on it's own.

~Jeff

[Ayotte]

I cut reverent silence for slaughter games because I can't find a silence. Slaughter games has been my most-wished-for non loam/non dreams card, and it's been awesome every time.

[JeffHoogland]

I cut reverent silence for slaughter games because I can't find a silence. Slaughter games has been my most-wished-for non loam/non dreams card, and it's been awesome every time.

I'm pretty sure Pulse is the right cut. I've wished for Silence more times than I can count. It is very good in a number of match ups.

~Jeff

[nedleeds]

Round 2: Junk Depths

Game 1 he makes a Turn 3 marit Lage, I have countryside crusher who is big but he cant race a 20/20 sadly...

Game 2 I mistakenly don't play the chalice in my hand and instead opt to try to Bob plsu Sylvan Library to gain card advantage. He ends up making a turn 4 Lage and I dont find the Karakas.

1-1

Round 3: 4 color... Stuff. Nedleeds from the source

He had a build somewhat similar to Team Italia, with the standard RWB stuff, but splash green for decay.

Game 1:I get down 2 KOTR after a chalice on 1 and they become 10/10's after a devastating dreams.

Game 2: He has a hand with double inquisition, but he draws some crap while I get a loam engine with 2 cycle lands and PFires going. He never really draws anything and just scoops when I get a crusher out.

2-1

You didn't even have chalice game one. I took your Abrupt Decay and your Chalice. But you top decked the Wish. I just have zero ways to interact with DD; and didn't have a Vindicate / STP / Decay for either Knight. I had to hope you made some horrible misplay when I attacked with Batterskull which you didn't.

Game 2 my hand was Arid Mesa x 3, Marsh Flats, IoK, Iok, Thalia which I should have just mulliganed. I didn't see hate until after you'd DDed and the spellbomb was just a slap in the face by then. My first draw was another Marsh Flats and then Alpha Scrubland. Terrible mulliganing on my part.

Even though I didn't draw my Surgical's this game I thought you played a little loose by not keeping cycling mana up when you had a Loam in your yard (especially since you'd wished one out of your board so I'm assuming all 4 were up for grabs); I almost have to assume you can cycle if you have mana up and fizzle my Surgical even if you don't have it. and that game I couldn't find anything resembling a threat (despite 24 dudes). I can't imagine mainphasing it so much matters unless you are searching for answers.

<Edit: snip steven is on here lurking>

[Megadeus]

@Everyone I have realized that I do really want Maze of Ith. I have played 3 or 4 games where maze of ith would have either made the win easier or straight up just won me the game.


You didn't even have chalice game one. I took your Abrupt Decay and your Chalice. But you top decked the Wish. I just have zero ways to interact with DD; and didn't have a Vindicate / STP / Decay for either Knight. I had to hope you made some horrible misplay when I attacked with Batterskull which you didn't.

Game 2 my hand was Arid Mesa x 3, Marsh Flats, IoK, Iok, Thalia which I should have just mulliganed. I didn't see hate until after you'd DDed and the spellbomb was just a slap in the face by then. My first draw was another Marsh Flats and then Alpha Scrubland. Terrible mulliganing on my part.

Even though I didn't draw my Surgical's this game I thought you played a little loose by not keeping cycling mana up when you had a Loam in your yard (especially since you'd wished one out of your board so I'm assuming all 4 were up for grabs); I almost have to assume you can cycle if you have mana up and fizzle my Surgical even if you don't have it. and that game I couldn't find anything resembling a threat (despite 24 dudes). I can't imagine mainphasing it so much matters unless you are searching for answers.

<Edit: snip steven is on here lurking>

Ah yes now I remember. I didnt have Chalice at 1, I was just hoping you didn't have STP X2 for both of my KOTR.
Yeah that game 2 was some pretty awful draws.

That is a fair point. Surgical is not a card that I have played around too much. I got blown out by Greg in round when when he Green Sun'd for a scavenging ooze with no mana open and I had grove online and Fire in the yard, I thought he mis played but he mind tricked me and surgicaled my PFires.


@Jeff: Why cut down the Bobs? Im not too sure of stage depths personally... It may just be too cute. I could see main decking the Bog and Decay and just playing with 13 cards in the board. That doesnt sound too bad.

[JeffHoogland]

Why cut down the Bobs?

He is the easiest cut. He dies a lot and is a huge non-bo with Devastating Dreams


Im not too sure of stage depths personally... It may just be too cute.

Might very well be. It is something that would need a lot of play testing time. My thoughts on it is this - there are a number of times where I'd love a second Maze or Monastery. Stage would allow me to have both of these. Depths on it's own isn't too awful. There are a number of games that go long where I could see myself simply paying full price for a 20/20 that ends the game.


I could see main decking the Bog and Decay and just playing with 13 cards in the board. That doesnt sound too bad.

This is my current plan.

~Jeff

[nedleeds]

@Everyone I have realized that I do really want Maze of Ith. I have played 3 or 4 games where maze of ith would have either made the win easier or straight up just won me the game.



Ah yes now I remember. I didnt have Chalice at 1, I was just hoping you didn't have STP X2 for both of my KOTR.
Yeah that game 2 was some pretty awful draws.

That is a fair point. Surgical is not a card that I have played around too much. I got blown out by Greg in round when when he Green Sun'd for a scavenging ooze with no mana open and I had grove online and Fire in the yard, I thought he mis played but he mind tricked me and surgicaled my PFires.


It's not absolute. But while I'm not threatening and you are in almost control mode you might want to think about playing conservatively -- e.g. just run through in your head "what beats me". I'd also just keep your sideboard close at hand; and I'd keep a die in front of you and tick it -- when it's odd during your draw step look at your sideboard quickly or something ... or next level people and look at it when you don't have wish. We live in a world with Cabal Therapy and Meddling Mage.

[Megadeus]

It's not absolute. But while I'm not threatening and you are in almost control mode you might want to think about playing conservatively -- e.g. just run through in your head "what beats me". I'd also just keep your sideboard close at hand; and I'd keep a die in front of you and tick it -- when it's odd during your draw step look at your sideboard quickly or something ... or next level people and look at it when you don't have wish. We live in a world with Cabal Therapy and Meddling Mage.

That's fair. So many triggers and things to think about... I had a board state at one point where I had Bob, Crusher and Library out, along with Loam in the yard. Its like reveal for bob, trigger crusher, then dredge the top three, then look at 2 from library. And now my turn begins lol. It feels like playing UB Tez Stax all over again...

[Zllig]

Jeff,
Have you ever experimented with Unburial Rites? My friend and I went to SCG Philly last weekend and he was attempting to put together your list, due to various circumstances he couldn't get a 4th Burning Wish (this isn't asking to switch the 4th for a rites) so he just slotted the rites in because why not. During the tourny he said that the rites performed really well acting as a 5th (or 6th if you count the GSZ) knight.

[JeffHoogland]

Jeff,
Have you ever experimented with Unburial Rites? My friend and I went to SCG Philly last weekend and he was attempting to put together your list, due to various circumstances he couldn't get a 4th Burning Wish (this isn't asking to switch the 4th for a rites) so he just slotted the rites in because why not. During the tourny he said that the rites performed really well acting as a 5th (or 6th if you count the GSZ) knight.

Thought had crossed my mind on more than one occasion. After testing it a (very) small bit it seemed strictly worse than playing a stronghold and a stronghold is only good it matchups that are already very good.

~Jeff

[Kich867]

Went 3-1 tonight with the list I posted a page or two ago with punishing groves in it. Tied for second/third/fourth place.

Round 1: ANT 2-1
Game 1: I have the nut against him but he's on the play. My hand is Mox, Badlands, Wasteland, Tarmogoyf, Chalice, Terravore, and Dreams (Can I just draw this hand every game please?). He fetches for an underground sea and therapies me naming chalice (he knows what I'm on). I waste his underground sea and promptly rip a fetch off the top next turn to slam Goyf, then rip another land to slam terravore or something.

Game 2: The game gets weird after I dreams, and I pull a thoughtseize, his hand is Cabal Ritual - Past in Flames - Infernal Tutor. What would you take with thoughtseize here? I took Infernal Tutor, thinking that if I don't, he just goes Cabal Ritual > Infernal Tutor for Ad Nauseam, kill me. He promptly rips a red source off the top, rituals into past in flames into a tutor chain to 20 me.

Game 3: I mull to 4. He keeps a disruption heavy hand, which is now sort of useless. I keep Land, land, surgical, terravore. I play a land, he duresses me and takes surgical. I promptly rip a goyf, play it, pass, next turn I pull another land, play the terravore, I draw a wasteland and if I waste my own land I put him on a two turn clock. I rip a thoughtseize, see that he has no action, and hit him for 9 twice.

Round 2: Deadguy Ale 2-0
Game 1: Punishing Fires and Dreams
Game 2: Punishing Fires and Dreams
Game 3: We play again for fun, I pull legit the most god-hand god-hand I can imagine against them. Land, Grove, Mox, Land, LFTL, Punishing Fire, Countryside Crusher. I naturally draw the next Mox, and go Mox Mox Grove, punish your guy EOT, get it back, untap into Crusher and he scooped.

Round 3: UR Delver 2-0
Game 1: Tarmogoyf and Wastelands get there
Game 2: Chalice on one turn 1, followed by turn 2 terravore, followed by turn 3 terravore, followed by Dreams and a swing out with 10/10 terravores.

Round 4 Grixis Affinity 0-2
Game 1: I misplay and don't completely destroy his board with dreams forgetting how ravager works and die to a 4/6 ornithopter.
Game 2: He shits stuff out onto the board and hits me for 10 infect with an inkmoth nexus pretty quickly.

[Claymore]

What about Last Chance as a wish target?

[Megadeus]

What does that do for us?

[nedleeds]

What does that do for us?

Win with one 8 power Knight and an opponent @ 16. Or get blown out if they Decay him.

[Kich867]

Playtested about 12-15 games against Deathblade, piloted by Jupiter NELC champion / legit best esper pilot I've ever witnessed on/off camera, only dropped 2 games. One was to a little unluckiness and a sketchyish keep (he turn 1 wasted me, I cycle, draw, pass, play land, cycle, draw, and didn't hit a third land), the other was just this train of him getting ahead. Took my turn 1 chalice, surgicaled my fires, got jace in play, and it just went down hill quick.

The 11-13 games I won were hyper consistent: I'm better at going into the long game, Punishing Fires + Chalice + Dreams + Wastelock are all just wildly powerful, I'm confident this is positive for us both pre and post-board.

I'm slowly beginning to believe this deck isn't nearly as bad as I thought it was. I've since beat every combo deck I've played, both storm and not-storm combo, and I've been getting hyper consistent draws.

In regards to Burning Wish, I'm also quite positive that this is a trap. Burning Wish in any deck that doesn't win the turn Burning Wish resolves, is a deck that shouldn't be playing Burning Wish. It's too much information, it ruins your sideboard options, and all it really does is give you a handful of bullets that cost more than they should. What's burning wish doing for you against what decks main deck? Get you thoughtseize? You run Chalice, Dreams, Knight, and Gaddock Teeg--a single thoughtseize isn't going to get there, blowing up all their land and turning their 1 drops off might though. Like, we're not Nic Fit, we're not doming them for 36 off of burning wish, it just seems so outrageously mediocre compared to having a more consistent maindeck and a sideboard dedicated to hosing combo.

My board against Deathblade is just -2 Abrupt Decay +2 Golgari Charm. But against combo I bring in 3x hymn, 3x thoughtseize, 2x liliana, and 2x surgical. Between the heavy discard, land destruction, chalices, and a fast clock, my matchup vs combo feels quite nice.

[Vandalize]

Playtested about 12-15 games against Deathblade, piloted by Jupiter NELC champion / legit best esper pilot I've ever witnessed on/off camera, only dropped 2 games. One was to a little unluckiness and a sketchyish keep (he turn 1 wasted me, I cycle, draw, pass, play land, cycle, draw, and didn't hit a third land), the other was just this train of him getting ahead. Took my turn 1 chalice, surgicaled my fires, got jace in play, and it just went down hill quick.

The 11-13 games I won were hyper consistent: I'm better at going into the long game, Punishing Fires + Chalice + Dreams + Wastelock are all just wildly powerful, I'm confident this is positive for us both pre and post-board.

I'm slowly beginning to believe this deck isn't nearly as bad as I thought it was. I've since beat every combo deck I've played, both storm and not-storm combo, and I've been getting hyper consistent draws.

In regards to Burning Wish, I'm also quite positive that this is a trap. Burning Wish in any deck that doesn't win the turn Burning Wish resolves, is a deck that shouldn't be playing Burning Wish. It's too much information, it ruins your sideboard options, and all it really does is give you a handful of bullets that cost more than they should. What's burning wish doing for you against what decks main deck? Get you thoughtseize? You run Chalice, Dreams, Knight, and Gaddock Teeg--a single thoughtseize isn't going to get there, blowing up all their land and turning their 1 drops off might though. Like, we're not Nic Fit, we're not doming them for 36 off of burning wish, it just seems so outrageously mediocre compared to having a more consistent maindeck and a sideboard dedicated to hosing combo.

My board against Deathblade is just -2 Abrupt Decay +2 Golgari Charm. But against combo I bring in 3x hymn, 3x thoughtseize, 2x liliana, and 2x surgical. Between the heavy discard, land destruction, chalices, and a fast clock, my matchup vs combo feels quite nice.

Can you throw me your current list? I feel that Burning Wish is mainly to get GOOD stuff like Slaughter Games, Devastating Dreams, Life from the Loam and Tsunami. Thoughtseize/Duress are really weak targets.

[Aggro_zombies]

Can you throw me your current list? I feel that Burning Wish is mainly to get GOOD stuff like Slaughter Games, Devastating Dreams, Life from the Loam and Tsunami. Thoughtseize/Duress are really weak targets.
If you're running Chalice, I would agree. On the other hand, 4 Chalice plus 3-4 Wish for discard gives you eight maindeck ways to (very slowly) interact with combo, so maybe they're not as bad as they look at first blush.

That said, I would not run more than five-ish dedicated Wish targets. The temptation to build a terrible sideboard just to maximize Wish is both strong and something to be avoided. However, if you're running multiples of other sorceries, you can leave one in the board and bring the rest in - particularly relevant if they're discard since you're super soft to combo and need some way to maximize your disruption.

[Megadeus]

Yeah I am really liking burning wish. I don't think there had been a time where I have been unhappy to draw a wish

[JeffHoogland]

Yeah I am really liking burning wish. I don't think there had been a time where I have been unhappy to draw a wish

Red demonic tutor is pretty good :)

~Jeff

[phazonmutant]

In regards to Burning Wish, I'm also quite positive that this is a trap. Burning Wish in any deck that doesn't win the turn Burning Wish resolves, is a deck that shouldn't be playing Burning Wish. It's too much information, it ruins your sideboard options, and all it really does is give you a handful of bullets that cost more than they should. What's burning wish doing for you against what decks main deck? Get you thoughtseize? You run Chalice, Dreams, Knight, and Gaddock Teeg--a single thoughtseize isn't going to get there, blowing up all their land and turning their 1 drops off might though. Like, we're not Nic Fit, we're not doming them for 36 off of burning wish, it just seems so outrageously mediocre compared to having a more consistent maindeck and a sideboard dedicated to hosing combo.

Isn't DD actually just gg in most matchups? Against almost every fair deck, it seems like that and Loam are cards you want to see early every game. For that reason alone it seems like Burning Wish is good.

[Aggro_zombies]

Isn't DD actually just gg in most matchups? Against almost every fair deck, it seems like that and Loam are cards you want to see early every game. For that reason alone it seems like Burning Wish is good.
Weeeeeell...

The slower and more controlling this deck gets, the better Burning Wish is. You really don't need more than a handful of targets for it - Loam, Dreams, Slaughter Games, and one or two meta slots (Shattering Spree/Vandalblast, Reverent Silence, Dreadbore/Pulse, discard, whatever) - to make it worthwhile. However, as the deck gets more aggressive, Wish gets worse because the windows where it's good become narrower. The move towards a more focused midrange aggro deck a few years ago is why Wish was originally cut, although I think people at the time made other arguments for its exclusion similar to Kich's (I certainly did). You just didn't need Wish: it was a tempo sink, it gave away information, it messed up your sideboard, it ate slots for "real" cards in the main.

That model of Aggro Loam has been dead since before the advent of Jund. The slower, more powerful three- and four-color lists people are playing now get more mileage out of Wish. It's also why Chalice has come back into vogue: the longer the game goes on, the less not having one-drops matters and the more Chalice bites into your opponent's game plans.

[birds of paradise2]

What is the opinion on Liliana in loam (in the MD that's it)?

[Megadeus]

What is the opinion on Liliana in loam (in the MD that's it)?

I think in the jund lists she is good. 4 color I don't think the mana base can support her without tweaking. I think she is great though I am biased since she is my second favorite walker only to garruk primal hunter

[Kich867]

Can you throw me your current list? I feel that Burning Wish is mainly to get GOOD stuff like Slaughter Games, Devastating Dreams, Life from the Loam and Tsunami. Thoughtseize/Duress are really weak targets.

// Creatures: 12
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Dark Confidant
2x Countryside Crusher
2x Terravore

// Spells: 23
4x Life from the Loam
4x Punishing Fires
3x Devastating Dreams
3x Abrupt Decay
1x Maelstrom Pulse

4x Chalice of the Void
4x Mox Diamond

// Lands: 25
4x Grove of the Burnwillows
3x Taiga
2x Badlands
1x Bayou
4x Wooded Foothills
2x Bloodstained Mire
4x Wasteland
3x Forgotten Cave
2x Tranquil Thicket

// Sideboard: 15
2x Slaughter Games
2x Nihil Spellbomb
2x Golgari Charm
2x Liliana of the Veil
1x Devastating Dreams
3x Thoughtseize
3x Hymn to Tourach

Fairly sure that's the list at the moment, I'm getting super consistent draws with it so far and it just feels great. And I tend to disagree with this:

I think in the jund lists she is good. 4 color I don't think the mana base can support her without tweaking. I think she is great though I am biased since she is my second favorite walker only to garruk primal hunter

Like ramping her out is cool and all, but what's she doing? Where does she go for instance, in the list above? I could probably cut decays or a punishing fire for her, but now that's straining the manabase and making Grove draws bad which seems awful, we don't need more removal and her +1 just isn't actually that great. I can test her out main-deck though tonight and see how it goes. She seems like she doesn't really add anything to what I want to be doing. The only upside is that we can profitably/negate her +1 regularly which is cool, but what's that really doing for us? That's not good enough against combo to get there and her removal isn't targeted. I tried to design my deck such that any card that isn't mox or land is high impact--sometimes Terravore just hits the field and one shots people, I wont at least 4 games yesterday that way against Deathblade, Chalice on one, Terravore comes down, and it's just too much damage.

[Aggro_zombies]

Like ramping her out is cool and all, but what's she doing? Where does she go for instance, in the list above? I could probably cut decays or a punishing fire for her, but now that's straining the manabase and making Grove draws bad which seems awful, we don't need more removal and her +1 just isn't actually that great. I can test her out main-deck though tonight and see how it goes. She seems like she doesn't really add anything to what I want to be doing. The only upside is that we can profitably/negate her +1 regularly which is cool, but what's that really doing for us? That's not good enough against combo to get there and her removal isn't targeted. I tried to design my deck such that any card that isn't mox or land is high impact--sometimes Terravore just hits the field and one shots people, I wont at least 4 games yesterday that way against Deathblade, Chalice on one, Terravore comes down, and it's just too much damage.
You have to build around Liliana. Not so much to break her +1 symmetry - you do that anyway - but to make her worth a slot in the first place. Slower versions of the deck will appreciate her for the same reasons they appreciate Burning Wish.

[Megadeus]

she is a fairly solid card vs storm and omni tell variants. also decent vs control. I'm not saying she is amazing but I could see her usefulness in this deck

[Kich867]

You have to build around Liliana. Not so much to break her +1 symmetry - you do that anyway - but to make her worth a slot in the first place. Slower versions of the deck will appreciate her for the same reasons they appreciate Burning Wish.

Sorry, what's that mean?

What version of this deck isn't slow--and what are you doing beyond breaking her +1 symmetry to make Liliana any better?

[Aggro_zombies]

Sorry, what's that mean?

What version of this deck isn't slow--and what are you doing beyond breaking her +1 symmetry to make Liliana any better?
A very control-oriented version of the deck, like Antonius posted previously, would love Liliana because it can leverage the card advantage planeswalkers provide as the game drags out. A more midrange version of the deck would be better served with another threat, or another way to immediately protect or clear the way for threats, since it is less primarily concerned with card advantage than it is with sculpting a favorable board state and holding it long enough to end the game. A control deck wants to do that too, to be sure, but the time frames they're operating in are different: a midrange deck wants to hold position for two to three turns while it piles in damage while a control deck can do so for longer while it runs an opponent out of resources.

Put another way: an aggressive midrange version of the deck doesn't need Liliana - you'd activate her +1 maybe a couple times and use her -2 to clear a blocker out and then your Crushers or Terravores end the game. A control version can use her +1 turn after turn to put the opponent into topdeck mode, using the -2 occasionally to keep a threat off your back, while it sets up P. Fires or Assaults.

[Antonius]

i went 3-0 at a legacy mini today playing this list. Beat junk deathblade, burn and enchantress

4 foothills
2 catacombs
1 forest
3 badlands
1 taiga
1 bayou
3 burnwillows
1 graven cairns
4 wasteland
1 volrath's
3 tranquil
2 barren moor
1 forgotten cave

4 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice of the Void

4 Dark Confidant
4 Countryside Crusher

4 Liliana of the Veil

3 Punishing Fires
3 Abrupt Decay

3 Loam
4 Burning Wish

Sideboard --
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Devastating Dreams
1 Thoughtseize
1 Slaughter Games
1 Loam
1 Dreadbore
4 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Trinisphere
1 Engineered Explosives

I decided to play chalice and burning wish for the first time in years to see why everyone's been switching over and was pleasantly reminded of how effective they can be. However, i didn't matchup against any of the blue-based tempo decks where both of these cards and the way they slow down the deck are liabilities. After the tournament was over, I played against jund and a four-color natural order homebrew, where I was once again reminded that it doesn't fucking matter how much goyf removal you run because nothing--and I mean NOTHING--can matchup against opposing goyfs quite like a goyf of your own. Playing against decks with 4+ goyfs (ie, the NO deck with zeniths...) with 0 goyfs is very unforgiving. The BUG delver and thresh matchups could be even more stressful, but only testing will tell. The NO homebrew ran like five mana dorks and two dryads and Jund is pretty good at crowding the field with dudes too. BUG/Thresh can't really do either of those...Still, after the tuning's all done I think i might have to run at least two of those dumb shitheads, which kind of upsets me.

part of me wants to say fuck it and just keep jamming my summer 2K11 lists, because despite all the new toys that have come out in recent sets those lists still feel powerful. I don't think I've had a good feel for this deck since innistrad, which is sad considering that it's the only deck i've really been playing for 3 years. I miss EE and Pulse and other amazing cards that have been displaced BECAUSE OMG YOU HAVE TO RUN ABRUPT DECAY IT'S ABRUPT DECAY.

[Aggro_zombies]

Firespout is a worthwhile Wish target against Jund/swarmy decks. Actually, Pyroclasm may be better because those decks tend to have a lot of x/2s and then some things bigger than x/3, so the mana efficiency might matter more.

EDIT: This is really just a suggestion for emergency situations when you can't Dreams effectively. Dreamsing vs. aggro decks is Easy Mode most of the time.

[Megadeus]

I think devastating dreams is good enough to deal with swarm style decks. if need to fire it off early it may be awkward but if you have loam you should be fine

[Antonius]

I think I would choose seismic assault over dreams because seismic is a lot better without loam and doesn't lead to blowouts when it gets countered.

[Richard Cheese]

@Antonius - You have to come back to Loam. We are all a little worse off without your tournament reports.

[Megadeus]

I think I would choose seismic assault over dreams because seismic is a lot better without loam and doesn't lead to blowouts when it gets countered.

If you suspect your opponent has a counter.then don't cast dreams. Itis more of a finisher. Ihave definitely used itto sweep away a pesky board state, but it even does a great job at getting tempo back. And if they sand bag counters for dreams you can just gain advantageby activating our attacking with a knight or something

[jhhdk]

@Antonious How often are you hellbent? I mean would Blood Scrivener be worth considering as 2/2 split with Dark confidant? I mean in theory it makes cycle lands twice as good in those situations. Not to mention life loss would be more predictable. If you are rarely hellbent I realize it would completely useless.

[Aggro_zombies]

@Antonious How often are you hellbent? I mean would Blood Scrivener be worth considering as 2/2 split with Dark confidant? I mean in theory it makes cycle lands twice as good in those situations. Not to mention life loss would be more predictable. If you are rarely hellbent I realize it would completely useless.
Not sure why you'd cut down on the card that always works to run a card that only works sometimes. Why not run Sylvan Library first?

[Megadeus]

library is very good. I love it. I don't top deck very often with this deck either. loam bringing lands back prevents this and having a hand full of cards is what you want when you cast devastating dreams

[Kich867]

library is very good. I love it. I don't top deck very often with this deck either. loam bringing lands back prevents this and having a hand full of cards is what you want when you cast devastating dreams

Library is the definitely the card I want most badly to run in this deck but can't find the space. I ran a list once with it, and it felt so damn powerful. Not to mention the -absurd- interactions with Loam it has (Dredging is not drawing, so you can dredge all 3 draws you get for the turn and put none back, since you have not actually drawn any cards this turn, you replaced them all with dredges). As well as letting you do nifty things like dodge Clique if you have a read on them (sandbag the card you actually want to draw this turn on the top of your deck, they clique you, after it resolves, cycle land!).

Not to mention, often the deck is just digging hard, and one great way to dig hard is with Sylvan Library--but it may be better in a deck that has a much greater threat density.

One change I'll be making to my list for sure, soon, is to run a singleton Volrath's Stronghold. Aggressively dredging loam with PFires feels so good, and having an option to start top decking bomb after bomb just sounds too spicy.

[Megadeus]

Library is the definitely the card I want most badly to run in this deck but can't find the space. I ran a list once with it, and it felt so damn powerful. Not to mention the -absurd- interactions with Loam it has (Dredging is not drawing, so you can dredge all 3 draws you get for the turn and put none back, since you have not actually drawn any cards this turn, you replaced them all with dredges). As well as letting you do nifty things like dodge Clique if you have a read on them (sandbag the card you actually want to draw this turn on the top of your deck, they clique you, after it resolves, cycle land!).

Not to mention, often the deck is just digging hard, and one great way to dig hard is with Sylvan Library--but it may be better in a deck that has a much greater threat density.

One change I'll be making to my list for sure, soon, is to run a singleton Volrath's Stronghold. Aggressively dredging loam with PFires feels so good, and having an option to start top decking bomb after bomb just sounds too spicy.

Library makes a somewhat threat light deck like ours find a threat. I think that is why I like it so much. and yeah volraths seems fun. sometimes I dredge a KOTR in 4 colorand wish that I could get him back

[Tyrio]

I run a Volrath's in place of the basic forest in Hoogland's list. He said it was win-more in already good match-ups but I've found it to be pretty invaluable for closing out games. If you dredge two of your Knights away and another gets killed/countered/exiled, how are you supposed to close out the game? Punishing them to death doesn't seem particularly viable and dredging Loam for cycle lands can easily just dredge away your last Knight and GSZ. I think making the manabase slightly worse (it's already terrible yolo all-in!) for some insurance is fine.

[Antonius]

I run a Volrath's in place of the basic forest in Hoogland's list. He said it was win-more in already good match-ups but I've found it to be pretty invaluable for closing out games. If you dredge two of your Knights away and another gets killed/countered/exiled, how are you supposed to close out the game? Punishing them to death doesn't seem particularly viable and dredging Loam for cycle lands can easily just dredge away your last Knight and GSZ. I think making the manabase slightly worse (it's already terrible yolo all-in!) for some insurance is fine.

nantuko first striking beatdown like a bizzoss. I want to run rager for the same reason.

[Megadeus]

I wont go into too much detail because I'm on my phone, but went 2-1-2 (2 ID) tonight. my loss was to death and taxes in the top eight. I an about 90% sure I played wrong in the top 8 and lost because of it. Country side crusher continues to be very awesome, though allot of times I wish I had bob just to draw cards... I keep forgetting to put maze of ith back into my deck and I'm sure it cost me at least one, maybe two games. also I have missed maelstrom pulse in the board and I may add it back and figure out something to cut. overall I feel pretty good with the deck. like my friend said about his maverick deck, I feel comfortable playing the deck, and I feel like I have the tools to win any match up. I may also play virtues ruin over perish next week due to allot of random white creatures seeing play in my meta.

[jhhdk]

Not sure why you'd cut down on the card that always works to run a card that only works sometimes.
Because with cycling lands you could get multiple activations per turn.

[Megadeus]

@Jeff where do you find nantuko monastery to be decent? I'm sure that I have been forgetting aboutit allot, but I haven't activated it in two weeks probably. I just haven't felt the need for it...

[Kich867]

@Jeff where do you find nantuko monastery to be decent? I'm sure that I have been forgetting aboutit allot, but I haven't activated it in two weeks probably. I just haven't felt the need for it...

Batterskull, early game tarmogoyfs, bloodbraid elves, after a dreams to wipe the board. Just a handful of ideas.

[Megadeus]

the only issue with bskull and goyf is that it is difficult to hit thresh hold that early in the game where it is relevant

[ajslim88]

I played in a Legacy event this week on Wednesday and went 4-0-1. My decklist is as followed:

11 Creatures
3 Dark Confidant
3 Tarmogoyf
3 Countryside Crusher
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thrun, the Last Troll

22 Spells
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
3 Burning Wish
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire
3 Life from the Loam
2 Devastating Dreams
1 Seismic Assault

27 Lands
2 Taiga
1 Bayou
1 Badlands
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstatined Mire
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Forest
1 Mountain
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Tranquil Thicket
3 Forgotten Cave
4 Wasteland

15 Sideboard
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Great Stable Stag
1 Pyroclasm
1 Devastating Dreams
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Dreadbore
1 Life from the Loam
1 Raven's Crime
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Trinisphere


I've been playing Aggro Loam for a few months now, and I really enjoy the deck. I haven't had to opportunity to play the 4-Color version of the deck because I don't have the funds for the manabase, but I'd play it if I could. That being said, the deck above is what I arrived at with my restrictions.

Round 1 - 4-Color Loam

Game 1 - I've played against my opponent before and most of the time he plays Jund. This is not the case as he goes 2x Mox into Knight of the Reliquary. I play Mox and Decay his guy right away. He gets his loam engine going on his turn and follow up with a dark confidant. He loams for the few turns and I start gaining cards with bob plus attacking. Eventually, I get land a Crusher and get Grove/P. Fires established, killing his second knight. He can't get this third Knight to stick and beaten by Crusher.

Sideboard: -4 Chalice +2 Decay +1 Thrun +1 Great Stable Stag


Game 2 - He starts with Mox, Land, Loam. I play Mox, Land, pass. He dredges and hits a Knight, Wish and Decay, plays his land and another mox then passes. I get 2 Goyfs on the board 2 turns later and ride them to victory.

Side Notes: This was my opponents first time playing the deck. He also took some extended time off from playing Legacy so I'm sure he was extremely rusty.

Round 2 - Dragon Stompy

Game 1 - I lose the dice roll but get a good 7. Mox, Land, Land, Land, Crusher, Bob. My opponent goes Ancient Tomb, Lotus Petal, Trinisphere. Awesome. We draw go for a few turns, I resolve my Bob and he resolves a Koth. My draws get a little better but my mana is horrible by this time with Grove, Badlands, Wasteland. He plays a Karagan Dragonlord, and then drops Blood Moon. I'm pretty thrilled about this and drop Seismic, Killing his Koth then P. Fires his Dragonlord. He's left with no cards in hand, I drop Crusher and win in 2 turns.

Sideboard: -3 Chalice +2 Abupt Decay +1 Thrun

Game 2 - He mulligans and goes turn 1 Chalice. I play mox, waste his land. The next few turns he plays mountains and Magus of the Moon and I play P. Fires to clear the way for Goyf + Crusher beat down. He can't find an Ensnaring Bridge and is beaten down.

Side Notes: I'm very certain that if he doesn't drop Blood Moon in Game 1, I lose to Koth. Also, my memory is little vague on Game 2. I just remember he didn't have a lot of Action.

Round 3 - Storm

Game 1 - Lost the dice roll. He plays Underground, Probe, Probe, pass. I go Mox, Wasteland and he doesn't have a follow up land. I get Loam online and end the game quickly with Crusher.

Sideboard: -2 Abrupt Decay, -2 Punishing Fire, +4 Trinisphere

Game 2 - We both mulligan. My 6 is grand with 2x Trinishpere, Mox, 3x land. He's doubtful of his 6 but keeps anyway. He probes me and is a little disheartened but not worried and passes. I draw Chalice (like a boss) and he just sinks. I then Turn 2 Trinishpere, draw go a few turns and end the game with Goyf.

Side Notes: He tells me he pretty much drew dead in Game 1 and that Trinishpere just ruined him in Game 2.

Round 4 - Burn
ID with Mr. Bobby Kovacs for Top 4. He normally plays Lands.

Top 4 - UW Stoneblade

Game 1 - Played Chalice for 1 that was met with a FoW. I manage to land a Bob while he is mana screwed and doesn't have a white source for StP/PtE. When he does get his white source (Tarn into Tundra) I wasteland it. A few turns later I land a Crusher, attack for lethal, he flashes in V. Clique, I P. Fires it, he scoops.

Sideboard: +1 Thrun +2 Great Stable Stag -3 Tarmogoyf

Game 2 - I go turn 1 Bob, turn 2 Crusher. He lands a stoneforge, that I P. Fires leaving Batterskull in hand. He PtE's my Crusher during attacks and I follow up with Seismic Assault. He plays Geist at some point but I wish for Loam and end the game quickly with Seismic in play.

Side Notes: Me and my opponent know each other, so we both knew what the other was playing. The first game he kept a very land light hand and in game 2 he kept a no counter spell hand. Also, I was very lucky on my Bob triggers. I'd always hit a land with him, then draw gas on my draw step.

Top 2 - Unknown.
We had decided earlier to do a Top 4 split so we decided to not to play the finals. I'm sure I would've had to play the finals had Bobby not lost in top 4 because he loves beating me...

Thoughts on the deck:

Originally, I had 4 Dark Confidant in the deck, but I kept drawing them in multiples a lot and sometimes (due to my carelessness) not having the mana to cast them. 3 seems pretty good right now. The 1 of Thrun was there to test tonight, I replaced Terravore for him. I'm sad to say I never drew him once. I may just take of the Thrun and put in another Crusher. Crusher was outstanding all night and I feel maxing out on him is good. I also used to have Volrath's Stronghold in my 60 but took it out when I added the Grove/P. Fires combo, I'd like to put it back in but I'm not sure what to remove. My sideboard was a little underwhelming tonight. Obviously, the Trinispheres were good against the matchup I needed it but everything else ok. I'm sure that's because I didn't draw many Wishes throughout my matches. I was sad that I didn't see my Great Stable Stags at all. I originally thought we were going to have a lot of Abrupt Decay decks there but the people who normally play them didn't show. I'll probably play this same 75 next week and hope that I play more common decks such as Esper Stoneblade, Show and Tell variants and Deathrite Shaman decks.

[Kich867]

Great Sable Stag? Like sweet performance but seriously? What's that card doing?

[ajslim88]

Great Sable Stag? Like sweet performance but seriously? What's that card doing?

Can't be Abrupt Decayed or countered. I expected to play against a lot of BUG but didn't.

[Megadeus]

he still seems underwhelming. he just gets blocked by.goyf...

[ajslim88]

he still seems underwhelming. he just gets blocked by.goyf...

That's true, he does. As I said, my sideboard was a little underwhelming. Also, I never did draw it when I sided it in.

[Megadeus]

Had a rough night with Hoogloam last night. Lost to Mono Red Sneak attack. Seems like a Horrid MU for us. Chalice does almost nothing. Teeg is very good, but even post board we only have 3 teeg (Counting GSZ for 2). Also lost to punishing Jund. He just had the T1 DRS, T2 Hymn me taking all of my colored sources and I just never got back into the game. I tried a Hull Breach over Shattering Spree (never really got to wish for anything but Loam...) and Maelstrom Pulse over Reverent Silence. Ill probably try it again Next week. Also as a meta call because of the abundance of white decks I played a Virtues ruin overt the Perish due to usually seeing at least 2 D&Taxes.

[sdematt]

Ran this to a 3-1 finish, losing only to bad draws against Jund:

3 Countryside Crusher
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
2 Terravore
12

3 Punishing Fires
3 Decay
3 Devastating Dreams
2 Sylvan Library
4 Life from the Loam
3 Seismic Assault
1 Crucible of Worlds
+ can't remember since it's late and I'm running on empty
19

4 Wooded Foothills
2 Blood Mire
2 Mountain
1 Forest
3 Wasteland
2 Forgotten Cave
1 Thicket
3 Taiga
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Badlands
1 Bayou
25

Overall rreally like the list. Chalices were in the board.

-Matt

[Megadeus]

Ran this to a 3-1 finish, losing only to bad draws against Jund:

3 Countryside Crusher
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
2 Terravore
12

3 Punishing Fires
3 Decay
3 Devastating Dreams
2 Sylvan Library
4 Life from the Loam
3 Seismic Assault
1 Crucible of Worlds
+ can't remember since it's late and I'm running on empty
19

4 Wooded Foothills
2 Blood Mire
2 Mountain
1 Forest
3 Wasteland
2 Forgotten Cave
1 Thicket
3 Taiga
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Badlands
1 Bayou
25

Overall rreally like the list. Chalices were in the board.

-Matt

A couple of ?'s.

Why No Mox Diamond?
Only 3 Wasteland?
1 Crucible? Is it just a 5th somewhat loam effect?
if the Chalices were there, are they fast enough to be effective without Moxen?

[Kich867]

A couple of ?'s.

Why No Mox Diamond?
Only 3 Wasteland?
1 Crucible? Is it just a 5th somewhat loam effect?
if the Chalices were there, are they fast enough to be effective without Moxen?

I often play turn 2 chalice if I don't have a mox in hand and it works just fine. Matt inspired me to try and find spots for Sylvan Library in the list. 3 Cycle lands sounds low as well, I'm running 5 right now and feel like I rarely see them.

[Megadeus]

Dont get me wrong, T2 chalice is fine, but I mean against fast combo, DRS decks, and just other decks with like infinite cantrips and such just the ability to play a T1 Chalice on the play and potentially ruin their hand that they may have kept on the back of a brainstorm finding them lands or something is amazing. Also I guess really it is more of a question of why no moxen. The card is extremely synergistic with our strategy and it rampsu us to begin loaming on Turn 1.

[Aggro_zombies]

Turn one Chalice entails land, other land, Mox, Chalice, three cards that actually do something. Against combo decks, where you most need Chalice, at least one of the extra three cards needs to be a creature - preferably Tarmogoyf, since that hits the sweet spot between cost and being large right out of the gates. So your keepable starting hand is land, land, Mox, Chalice, Goyf, two other cards, which is actually a really specific hand as far as mulligan decisions are concerned. It really doesn't come up that often.

Diamond is also only really good for about the first three turns, and maybe at some point later if you want to DD for almost all of your lands. In the midgame, it's a pretty lousy topdeck.

Three cycling lands seems fine. LftL is a shitastic draw engine - I'd wager it actually gets more work done by dredging you into recurrable card advantage elements than it does doing a bad Harmonize impression. In that case, you only ever need to see one cycling land per game, and you can dredge yourself into it naturally. Running fewer cycling lands also makes running Groves less painful since you're not cutting into fetchable land slots when you add them.

I'm not sure how I feel about the lack of DRS in sdematt's list, but I guess you're either running that or you're running Dreams. Still, no maindeck Chalice and no maindeck one-drops or acceleration strikes me as odd and a little too slow.

[sdematt]

Turn one Chalice entails land, other land, Mox, Chalice, three cards that actually do something. Against combo decks, where you most need Chalice, at least one of the extra three cards needs to be a creature - preferably Tarmogoyf, since that hits the sweet spot between cost and being large right out of the gates. So your keepable starting hand is land, land, Mox, Chalice, Goyf, two other cards, which is actually a really specific hand as far as mulligan decisions are concerned. It really doesn't come up that often.

Diamond is also only really good for about the first three turns, and maybe at some point later if you want to DD for almost all of your lands. In the midgame, it's a pretty lousy topdeck.

Three cycling lands seems fine. LftL is a shitastic draw engine - I'd wager it actually gets more work done by dredging you into recurrable card advantage elements than it does doing a bad Harmonize impression. In that case, you only ever need to see one cycling land per game, and you can dredge yourself into it naturally. Running fewer cycling lands also makes running Groves less painful since you're not cutting into fetchable land slots when you add them.

I'm not sure how I feel about the lack of DRS in sdematt's list, but I guess you're either running that or you're running Dreams. Still, no maindeck Chalice and no maindeck one-drops or acceleration strikes me as odd and a little too slow.

It was super late when I typed out the list. The list is missing 4 Mox Diamond.

I want more cycling lands, sure, but I also want good mana development, especially with Dreams now coming back into the deck. I don't want to have a hand full of CipT lands after a Dreams. As well, you don't need as many cyclers since even though DRS can suck up stuff, usually you Dreams or kill their DRS before you start gaining advantage with Loam. Recall you also have the Fires engine to rely on as well.

You don't really want Chalice against every deck, though. I brought in Chalice mostly to fight Extirpate/Surgical/Nihil rather than screwing over the decks I played. It's bad against Gobbos, against Miracles it's only so-so (yes, they run Top and Brainstorm, but I'm not going to keep hands on the draw where if they drop Top before it, I'm fucked).

I liked Chalice where it was. Slaughter Games was ridiculously good since it handles the cards we don't like to see, such as Jace/Entreat out of Miracles, E. Bridge/Nether Void/Liliana against Pox (since I was playing against Pox), etc.

The Crucible was nice because it was the fifth Loam effect. It was sometimes nice not having to rely on a Dredge to be able to get lands back. This replaced Entomb, but I'll be trying the Entomb again since it fetches Loam, a particular Land, Grove, or Punishing Fires.

I'd change my sideboard to this:

2 Slaughter Games
3 Pyroblast
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Darkblast
2 Golgari Charm
2 Rakdos Charm
4 Chalice of the Void


Only 3 Wasteland?

a) You're digging so deep in this deck you'll see one either way.

b) I like to run 25-26 lands and run 3 basics and 4 Grove. If the Entomb makes it's way into the main, 3 Grove will be a thing, and Waste will go up to 4 (or 3 Waste 1 Ghost Quarter).

-Matt

[Megadeus]

Went 2-1 making top 8 at the local tonight. Lost in top 8 to Miracles.

Game 1: Maverick

Game 1 went long, I remember a batterskull coming in and out, and I had a chalice on 1 for a while, but overall my loam and PFire engine took over and I got down a crusher and he and KOTR crushed after a very devastating dreams. Game 2 I lost fairly quickly to Scavenging Ooze if I remember correctly... Kept a sketch hand and got punished for it. Game 3 he had a Mom hand with Karakas as his only white source. I proceeded to PFire Mom, then waste his Savanahh and take out his hierarch and stranded a bunch of green cards in hand.

Match 2: Dredge

Game 1 He had he nut of on the play play LED, cast faithless, discarding Grave troll to the LED, dredge a lot and I just couldnt do too much. Game 2 I had an awkward hand of like Savannah, Bojuka Bog, and a wasteland, a chalice of the void, and 2 Burning Wishes. I ended up Keeping and Bog slowed him down but he pressured me with Putrid Imp who kept the gas going. I missed his cabal therapy being countered by one of my chalices. I messed up a couple of times and lost.

Match 3: Team Italia

The guy had never played the deck and was newer to legacy so I was able to capitalize on a lot of mistakes. He fetched up almost exclusively non basics and I wasted him out over a long game 1. I was able to Hull Breach His Batterskull which he Mainphased for some reason. Also he would fetch but not do anything and just pass the turn. So Eventually PFires got him. Game 2 was a bit tougher. He began with lavamancer into SFM, but I wasted his plateau and that was his only colored source for awhile. He then got a scrubland, but extirpated my Wastes. He also got down a Relic of Progenitus to slow my roll down but blew it a bit early I think to shrink a could of KOTRs down. It ended up with me getting down to 4 life after a lingering souls but I got him to 2. Then I ripped a PFire like a champ to finish it the turn before he could kill me.

Top 8: UWR Miracles

Game 1 was rough. He FOW a Chalice and then I drew another, but I couldnt really capitalize. The moment I tap my only green source he lands Blood Moon. I didnt think he had it since I had Abrupt Decay in Hand, and he cliqued me and left the Decay there. So I tapped out of green and I lost. Game 2 I mull to six and he to 5. I go turn 1 double diamond into Thalia, but he finally gets rid of Thalia by FOW her. I never really draw another threat and I get entreated by 4 Angels.

Rough Night overall. That miracles deck is a bad MU for me between MB RIP and Blood Moon. I made a handful of misplays and it hurt me. I also tried something similar to SDE Matt. I tried out 3 Wastelands instead of 4 and I didnt hate it. Also as I said I played a Hullbreach tonight over a Reverent Silence. Next week I may play 61 and play another PFire to go to main board because it is so solid vs so many decks in my meta.

[alphastryk]

...
Top 8: UWR Miracles

Game 1 was rough. He FOW a Chalice and then I drew another, but I couldnt really capitalize. The moment I tap my only green source he lands Blood Moon. I didnt think he had it since I had Abrupt Decay in Hand, and he cliqued me and left the Decay there. So I tapped out of green and I lost. Game 2 I mull to six and he to 5. I go turn 1 double diamond into Thalia, but he finally gets rid of Thalia by FOW her. I never really draw another threat and I get entreated by 4 Angels.
...


In game 1 your read was reasonable, I'm just a sack and drew Blood Moon for turn.

[Megadeus]

Not sure if you still read this thread Mr. Hoogland, but if you happen to, could you go over some of your sideboarding thoughts vs certain MUs? I understand SB out dead stuff like decay and PFire vs combo, but but other fair MUs I have a much more difficult time boarding. For example vs miracles you take out PFires. Is that because you just assume RIP will come down to ruin the fun? PFire is a decent answer to grind out a jace. Not quite as clean as wish for dreadbore, but it is a thing. Also just curious if you ever tested the -3 Bob, +1 Library, +1 Stage, +1 Depths.

[sdematt]

Not sure if you still read this thread Mr. Hoogland, but if you happen to, could you go over some of your sideboarding thoughts vs certain MUs? I understand SB out dead stuff like decay and PFire vs combo, but but other fair MUs I have a much more difficult time boarding. For example vs miracles you take out PFires. Is that because you just assume RIP will come down to ruin the fun? PFire is a decent answer to grind out a jace. Not quite as clean as wish for dreadbore, but it is a thing. Also just curious if you ever tested the -3 Bob, +1 Library, +1 Stage, +1 Depths.

Against Miracles, I usually take out Goyfs and Terravores. They're really awful even if you manage to get rid of Rest in Peace, so you might as well board them out. You can always hold Fires until after Rest in Peace is gone. I've found Slaughter Games to be AMAZING in this matchup. If RIP hasn't hit yet, you usually name that, or Jace/Entreat if you fear it.

In other news, I miss Volrath's Stronghold. Le sigh. I'll have to cut something for it...

-Matt

[JeffHoogland]

Against Miracles, I usually take out Goyfs and Terravores. They're really awful even if you manage to get rid of Rest in Peace, so you might as well board them out. You can always hold Fires until after Rest in Peace is gone. I've found Slaughter Games to be AMAZING in this matchup. If RIP hasn't hit yet, you usually name that, or Jace/Entreat if you fear it.


The version of Loam I play is very, very different from this.

I plan on playing Stage+Depths this weekend in Somerset. With Knight/Loam to find both pieces I think it is very good. My current deck list is this (http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/midsummer-knights-dream-1/).

Against UW I generally board like this:

+3 Thalia
+1 Teeg

-3 P-Fire
-1 Bojuka Bog

P-Fire just doesn't do much against them. I always cut them unless I see SFM (which most no longer play).

~Jeff Hoogland

[Megadeus]

Dropped the Nantuko Monastery for Bojuka Bog MD.. Interesting. I do like having Bog MD though.

[ventouza6969]

The version of Loam I play is very, very different from this.

I plan on playing Stage+Depths this weekend in Somerset. With Knight/Loam to find both pieces I think it is very good. My current deck list is this (http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/midsummer-knights-dream-1/).

Against UW I generally board like this:

+3 Thalia
+1 Teeg

-3 P-Fire
-1 Bojuka Bog

P-Fire just doesn't do much against them. I always cut them unless I see SFM (which most no longer play).

~Jeff Hoogland

Congrats Jeff for the top8 scg invitational. I hope to see you in a feature match tomorrow...

[Kich867]

Congrats Jeff for the top8 scg invitational. I hope to see you in a feature match tomorrow...

Grats Jeff. You may want to consider removing Thoughtseize from your sideboard, this is at least the second or third time I've seen you walk into your own chalice with it on turn 2.

[Woe_Bringer]

With M14 rules does the Depths + Sage combo work?

[Aggro_zombies]

With M14 rules does the Depths + Sage combo work?
Do you mean Depths + Thespian's Stage? If so, then yes - it's been discussed elsewhere on the site.

[Woe_Bringer]

I did and thank you

[Megadeus]

Congrats Jeff. I caught the tail end of that awesome game vs Deathblade. Thank you for taking that match down... Also there were some changes I saw that you have made since you posted your list in here a few days ago. I saw you vs Deathblade when he had GOST out and I thought to myself, this kind of thing is why we should play massacre, then you got it and I lol'd. I personally am still having some difficulty with damn batterskull. I cant seem to beat an early batterskull, and it seems like GOST is also a problem for us. I also saw you werent playing stage depths. SO far I have been unimpressed with it myself. Overall I like the changes you made for the invi. 2 Green Suns also seems very good, and I may test out an Ooze in the board.

Edit: . Goyf honestly seems really really good. Two big problems I have found for this deck are BSkull and GOST. And Goyf trumps both of them nicely. Basically just being a cheap wall that survives smaller Devastating dreams is awesome.

[KntrellCL]

If you play Punishing Fire.... batterskull is just an easy cake... everytime he attacks you can get back your punishing fire with those lives... I just saw Jeff's MU and he didnt bring it back with the first attack. I always use opossing Bskull to punishing fire everthing else...

[JeffHoogland]

Thanks guys!

That match VS Brad was some of the worst magic I've played in a very long time.

The thoughtseize in the wish package is fine. I just need to be less of an idiot.

~Jeff

[Ayotte]

Which rounds / what time in the recorded video did Jeff have feature matches?

[Serbitar]

Anything in particular that made you decide against Stage-Depths?

[Megadeus]

Not sure about why Jeff didn't but, I have found it underwhelming. We can't really crop rotation up the pieces to just get them with their shields down. And if we are activating knight we are already in a great spot. The stage actually by itself has been useful to me. I may just board the depths, though for what I do not know.

[Megadeus]

Let my friend play my deck tonight. Took out Stage Depths, slipped in a Daybreak Ranger while he wasnt looking for the lulz. Daybreak was actually pretty decent lol. Eating Goblins Alive, and eating small Tarmogoyfs. Still wish I had Goyfs because that is probably the superior card lol. Also Massacre was very good. Dunno Why I thought it might not be good enough. Watched it wipe away a couple of Slivers. He beat Counter Slivers, Goblins, and in top 8 Mono U SnT. Whoever thought that adding white was a joke because you auto lose to combo anyway was dead wrong. Teeg, Thalia and Chalice give you plenty of ways to slowly lock your opponent out. Devastating Dreams continues to live up to its name. He did lose to punishing Jund, but I believe he misplayed. His opponent top decks scavenging ooze with nothing else on board and my friend has a full GY and instead of Wishing for CHainers Edict he just passes and Ooze just shuts everything down activating something like 8-9 times just eating everything. I think he just forgot that ooze doesnt only eat creatures. He said he would have liked a Volraths Stronghold but I still disagree a bit. Just be smart with KOTR and should be fine.

[codegoblin]

Yo Jeff, have you tested stage + depths in your list? If so, can you comment on your feelings towards it? I've been having *tremendous* success with the new x2 goyf list (although I still will throw the bobs in there if a tourney meta is more UW) but I'm really scared that depths will be a terrible thing to see come out of my library a large percentage of the time.

BTW ... I ran into you at GP Vegas ... super-excited-to-meet-you-guy wearing a tie dye wizard tshirt that called over his friend to say "This is the guy that invented my loam list!"

[JeffHoogland]

Yo Jeff, have you tested stage + depths in your list? If so, can you comment on your feelings towards it? I've been having *tremendous* success with the new x2 goyf list (although I still will throw the bobs in there if a tourney meta is more UW) but I'm really scared that depths will be a terrible thing to see come out of my library a large percentage of the time.

BTW ... I ran into you at GP Vegas ... super-excited-to-meet-you-guy wearing a tie dye wizard tshirt that called over his friend to say "This is the guy that invented my loam list!"

Stage depths is too cute. Most of the time when you win with it you'd win the game without it as well. I really like the goyf change as well, it was an impulse swap that ended up being great.

~Jeff Hoogland

[Megadeus]

After two weeks of top 4ing the local with the deck, my roommate said he will be borrowing cards to play it at SCGATL. Apparently the day break ranger I slipped in as a joke is still there doing work. Not sure if it is actually good or not still, but time to test this week! I'm still attempting to figure out what to drop for a second GSZ as well. Right now playing 3 groves has been solid for me being great to color fix. I'll probably drop the fourth abrupt decay I guess.

[Madmankevinx]

So the consensus is that we drop the 3 Dark Confidant from Jeff's original list to make room for zenith #2 and 2x Tarmogoyf?

[Megadeus]

Depends in the meta. Goyf is great for blocking geists and is a wall vs tribal. Bob draws extra cards vs control and helps to grind

[codegoblin]

So the consensus is that we drop the 3 Dark Confidant from Jeff's original list to make room for zenith #2 and 2x Tarmogoyf?

I agree that it depends on the meta. Goyfs are great when you expect a field full of non-UW fair decks and bob is spectacular otherwise. Me, I've just started testing x3 young pyromancer + volrath's stronghold in Hoogland's old bob list (replace bob w/ pyromancer) and it's ... very, very powerful once you get loam and/or pun fire going. Will probably keep going with this =).

The list:
1 Badlands
1 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Forest
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Nantuko Monastery
1 Savannah
2 Forgotten Cave
2 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Taiga
2 Tranquil Thicket
4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
2 Sylvan Library
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire
1 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Devastating Dreams
3 Life from the Loam
4 Burning Wish
3 Young Pyromancer
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 1 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Shattering Spree
SB: 1 Perish
SB: 1 Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 1 Dreadbore
SB: 1 Chainer's Edict
SB: 3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
SB: 1 Life from the Loam
SB: 1 Devastating Dreams
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Reverent Silence
SB: 1 Slaughter Games

Reverent Silence stays in sb because of my UW-dominated local meta ... it + shattering spree are all-star wish targets ... also put morningtide in sb one friday tournament due to 2 reanimator + dredge decks being there and it was an all-star as well

[Megadeus]

Young ordinance pyromancer (and bob) are both so bad with devastating dreams lol

[phazonmutant]

Young ordinance pyromancer (and bob) are both so bad with devastating dreams lol

Have you gotten around to testing Pyromancer? It seems like it could be very good in this deck, although it does incentivize you to play fewer DDs. It turns every Loam into draw 3 + make a dude. It gums up the board like Goyf, can close fast, and produces value like Bob.

[Megadeus]

While I think it could be interesting, this decks spells (chalice versions at least) cost at least two mana. So at least not until turn 4 can this deck really make more than one dude per turn. And why gum up the board when we can wrathageddon it? I do see the synergy and think it seems fun, and I'm willing to test, but overall it just seems underwhelming in a deck that lacks cheap spells and free spells.

Edit: I do like that he doesn't rely on the graveyard like goyf. Good knows RIP rapes 4 color hard enough

[Wozmaz90]

Hi everyone, it's my first time posting on here but I have been following this thread for quite some time.

So I have been play testing a list very similar to Jeff's with a burning wish SB and 2 GSZ main and I absolutely love it. I was curious if anyone has tried using Qasali pridemage in the sideboard? I feel that it would make great use of the second GSZ giving us another way to deal with annoying artifacts and enchantments while not relying so much on burning wish. In play testing it's worked really well for me. I'd love to hear your thoughts on it.

[Megadeus]

@Wozman: I have thought about Pridemage and Ooze as a couple of great flexible options to have as GSZ targets, but Between Abrupt Decay and Wish I havent really needed it too much.

I went 2-2 last night due to some bad beats

Round 1 4 Color Thresh

I feel like this shouldnt be an overly difficult MU, but G1 I mull to 4. Yay! Apparently 27 lands is not enough... Game 2 I have a great start, but I run my Loam into Daze and it gets eaten by DRS. He said he boarded all but 1 daze out because of how terrible they are vs me, but apparently sometimes you get there :/

Round 2 Jund Zombardment

Game 1 I Get an early Chalice for 1 and Stop his threats and then waste him out of the game. Game 2 He gets a T2 Lol troll, discard anger discard basking rootwalla attack and aggros me out. Troll is a somewhat difficult to deal with threat. Game 3 He opens with a Black Leyline. I play a chalice for 1, and Punishing Fire his Lol Troll when he taps out hoping he didnt have enough dudes to make it an X/3 and he didnt. Eventually I get KOTR and Crusher out and get there.

Round 3 Junk

Game 1 I have a double Mox Diamond hand into a T1 KOTR. He Wastes my Wasteland and KOTR just hits him for 5 for four turns. Game 2 I have another double Mox Diamond hand but Opt to play a chalice instead of Running a Countryside crusher out there. He gets a T2 Hymn me (my last 2 cards being Devastating Dreams and Crusher) and T3 KOTR and I dont find an answer. Game 3 I get loam engine going and just annihilate him with PFires and at one point he attacks with a Scooze as a 2/2 and my Nantuko Monastery eats it.

Round 4 the nightmare MU of Mono Red Sneak Attack. Not much to see here. I didnt find a Teeg and I got raped by Emrakul. Game 2 He got a blood moon, but with Burning Wish for Hullbreach it is pretty easy to deal with a Moon. But unfortunately Emrakul Eats my board again

[Wozmaz90]

@ mega -- Thanks for your response. What is the current list that you have been playing at your LGS with?

[Megadeus]

I play a modified 4 color loam list:


34 Spells

4 KOTR
4 Burning Wish
3 Life from the Loam
1 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Devastating Dreams
3 Punishing Fire
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Countryside Crusher
1 Daybreak Ranger
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Sylvan Library
4 Mox Diamond

27 Lands

4 Wooded Foothills
1 Plateau
1 Bayou
2 Taiga
1 Badlands
1 Savannah
2 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Maze of Ith
1 Nantuko Monastery
4 Wasteland
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Tranquil Thicket
2 Forgotten Cave
1 Forest
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas

61 Cards

SB:
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Slaughtergames
1 Dreadbore
1 Hull Breach
1 Chainer's Edict
1 Duress
1 Perish
1 Devastating Dreams
1 Life From the Loam
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Massacre
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Maelstrom Pulse



As you can see it is very close to Hooglands list. I play Hull Breach over Shattering Spree because of the infinite Blood Moons/RIP in my local meta (but also alot of BSkulls) so it is easy to cast under a blood moon, and is a way to take out RIP, as well as taking out Skull or other random enchantments. I play the 4th Decay in the board for the same reasons. I play Countryside Crushers because I dont Own Goyfs (but I will borrow them for SCG ATL over crushers, only guy I know that would let me borrow them has foils and that makes me uncomfortable week to week), and Day Break Ranger has actually proven to be quite a house. Actually debating keeping him in for SCG ATL. I used to feel a bit safer playing a 3rd Grove of the Burnwillows, but I dropped one this past week and I didn't find myself missing it. Actually may cut the 4th Wasteland. Not sure what for, but if I think of something I would like to try out Waste may be cut. Duress over Thoughtseize is also another fact that I just dont own TS. Massacre has been AMAZING. Probably one of my most wished for cards at least locally. Card is just such an awesome blow out. Heres to hoping there are no RIP at SCG ATL. That is really the one card I despise playing against. Blood Moon I can deal with. RIP... God I hate it.

[Madmankevinx]

Has anyone tried Volrath's Stronghold? I find that occasionally I dredge too many threats away and get into long grindy matches with my Nantuko Monastery whilst wishing I could get a KotR back to just finish the game out.

[Megadeus]

Tyrio posted this a few pages back:

"I run a Volrath's in place of the basic forest in Hoogland's list. He said it was win-more in already good match-ups but I've found it to be pretty invaluable for closing out games. If you dredge two of your Knights away and another gets killed/countered/exiled, how are you supposed to close out the game? Punishing them to death doesn't seem particularly viable and dredging Loam for cycle lands can easily just dredge away your last Knight and GSZ. I think making the manabase slightly worse (it's already terrible yolo all-in!) for some insurance is fine. "

[jarvisyu]

Tyrio posted this a few pages back:

"I run a Volrath's in place of the basic forest in Hoogland's list. He said it was win-more in already good match-ups but I've found it to be pretty invaluable for closing out games. If you dredge two of your Knights away and another gets killed/countered/exiled, how are you supposed to close out the game? Punishing them to death doesn't seem particularly viable and dredging Loam for cycle lands can easily just dredge away your last Knight and GSZ. I think making the manabase slightly worse (it's already terrible yolo all-in!) for some insurance is fine. "

the old Extended Assault Loam decks with Burning Wish ran Nostalgic Dreams. It may or may not be good, but it's certainly something to consider once you've gassed up on lands (via loam) and convert them all into win cons that have been dredged away.

[Megadeus]

Doesnt seem like the worst thing in the world, but we already run Devastating Dreams which is already taxing on our hand. Now if only there were a regrowth with flashback... But honestly Ive never had a huge problem with bringing the Nantuko beats lately. I used to never use it, but I just wasnt being aggressive enough. 4 per turn (even if your opponent is at like 24 from Grove) isnt bad. You could always try out Something like Lavaclaw reaches or Raging Ravine.

[jarvisyu]

Doesnt seem like the worst thing in the world, but we already run Devastating Dreams which is already taxing on our hand. Now if only there were a regrowth with flashback... But honestly Ive never had a huge problem with bringing the Nantuko beats lately. I used to never use it, but I just wasnt being aggressive enough. 4 per turn (even if your opponent is at like 24 from Grove) isnt bad. You could always try out Something like Lavaclaw reaches or Raging Ravine.

The Ext build also maxed out on DDreams (3 main 1 boarded). It's not impossible to play both, and Nostalgic Dreams eats up so little space to let you basically dredge w/o any sort of worry that you'll run out of win cons.

[Wozmaz90]

Here's the current list I am testing.

Creatures: (8)
2 Dark Confidant
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Scavenging Ooze

Spells: (26)
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Burning Wish
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Devastating Dreams
1 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Life from the Loam
4 Mox Diamond
3 Punishing Fire
2 Sylvan Library




Lands: (26)
1 Badlands
1 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Forest
2 Forgotten Cave
2 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Nantuko Monastery
1 Savannah
2 Taiga
3 Tranquil Thicket
1 Volrath's Stronghold
3 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills

SB: (15)
1 Chainer's Edict
1 Devastating Dreams
1 Dreadbore
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Life from the Loam
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Reverent Scilence
1 Hull breach
1 Slaughter Games
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Thoughtseize


After play testing this deck for a little bit I noticed I am never grabbing perish from my SB. Is most of the cases where I felt I'd use perish (elves), I opted to grab DD instead. Anyone have any thoughts on this? I also decided to not use Goyf because of how common it is for me to run into RIP. Confident has been working great for me so far.

[Megadeus]

Here's the current list I am testing.

Creatures: (8)
2 Dark Confidant
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Scavenging Ooze

Spells: (26)
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Burning Wish
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Devastating Dreams
1 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Life from the Loam
4 Mox Diamond
3 Punishing Fire
2 Sylvan Library




Lands: (26)
1 Badlands
1 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Forest
2 Forgotten Cave
2 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Nantuko Monastery
1 Savannah
2 Taiga
3 Tranquil Thicket
1 Volrath's Stronghold
3 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills

SB: (15)
1 Chainer's Edict
1 Devastating Dreams
1 Dreadbore
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Life from the Loam
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Reverent Scilence
1 Hull breach
1 Slaughter Games
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Thoughtseize


After play testing this deck for a little bit I noticed I am never grabbing perish from my SB. Is most of the cases where I felt I'd use perish (elves), I opted to grab DD instead. Anyone have any thoughts on this? I also decided to not use Goyf because of how common it is for me to run into RIP. Confident has been working great for me so far.
Interesting changes. Why no Plateau? I personally am not a huge fan, but it is a necessary evil unfortunately for me. I like the Scooze MB, though I feel like if I ran Scooze I would want to run a second GSZ. As for perish, I do not wish for it very often either, but it helps vs Maverick decks and Elves and even BUG it isnt the worst. Mainly maverick though because it is very difficult to kill an opposing KOTR protected by Mom. Also having a pridemage in the board makes me think you may want the second GSZ

[Hencules]

I'd love to get into a loam deck. Since the printing of young pyromancer, I wanted to abuse his powers. Repeating Loam and Punishing fire seemed like the way to do it. However, I feel Loam is so weak to combo. Why do so few people pack a set of therapies? I'd has great synergy with most of the deck (dredge into flashback, just sac a token).

The other thing is that i'd like to abuse the tokens even more. Perhaps a singleton vault of the archangel or a singleton gavony township? You'd have to add white, but you'll wreck REAL quickly. Tips, comments, ideas?

[Megadeus]

I'd love to get into a loam deck. Since the printing of young pyromancer, I wanted to abuse his powers. Repeating Loam and Punishing fire seemed like the way to do it. However, I feel Loam is so weak to combo. Why do so few people pack a set of therapies? I'd has great synergy with most of the deck (dredge into flashback, just sac a token).

The other thing is that i'd like to abuse the tokens even more. Perhaps a singleton vault of the archangel or a singleton gavony township? You'd have to add white, but you'll wreck REAL quickly. Tips, comments, ideas?

Well the white splash version generally runs Chalice of the Void to help out vs Combo. Which also makes Therapy kind of bad. But it would allow for a gavony splash. My big thing with Pyromancer is that all of the spells we want to cast are 2 or more mana, and that he is such a nonbo with Devastating Dreams.

[Ayotte]

I agree. If Devastating Dreams weren't locked into the deck, I think Young Pyromancer would fit perfectly. Unfortunately...

[Megadeus]

Yeah like making 2 1/1's per turn at max (assuming pyromancer lives considering we have no way to protect him) just seems underwhelming.

[Wozmaz90]

Interesting changes. Why no Plateau? I personally am not a huge fan, but it is a necessary evil unfortunately for me. I like the Scooze MB, though I feel like if I ran Scooze I would want to run a second GSZ. As for perish, I do not wish for it very often either, but it helps vs Maverick decks and Elves and even BUG it isnt the worst. Mainly maverick though because it is very difficult to kill an opposing KOTR protected by Mom. Also having a pridemage in the board makes me think you may want the second GSZ



Good point on perish being good for maverick. I guess my initial thought is to always go for massacare, but it's true... that leaves me vulnerable to KOTR still. As for the second GSZ. I just have been having difficulty finding room for it. Same with plateau. Got any suggestions on what land you'd remove for plateau? Maybe remove the bog? and SB it instead?

[Megadeus]

Good point on perish being good for maverick. I guess my initial thought is to always go for massacare, but it's true... that leaves me vulnerable to KOTR still. As for the second GSZ. I just have been having difficulty finding room for it. Same with plateau. Got any suggestions on what land you'd remove for plateau? Maybe remove the bog? and SB it instead?

Sorry. I forgot to actualy press the submit reply button earlier... Massacre is still a decent option as it kills off MOM protecting the Knight from your Abrupt Decay. I see that you play 60 cards. I play 61 so that would be my second GSZ but I just like playing 61 card decks. Bob would be another possible cut, but if you are in a grindy meta I could see keeping them. As for Plateau, I also play one more land than you so that is where my Plateau goes. Yeah either adding a 61st card to be GSZ, or cutting both Bobs than adding GSZ + Green Threat (Daybreak Ranger :cool: ) or something is a possibility.

Went 2-2 (really 1-2 Thanks Bye!) but actually felt like a good night for practice

Dredge in round one was a beating. Game 1 I get smashed in. Game 2 I had a double Mox Diamond hand with Bojuka Bog and wasteland and loam. That was a sick one. Game 3 I mull to 6 and fin Mox Diamond, Bog, Thicket, 2x Chalice, Library. Meh Awkward but I keep. I play Mox Diamond go hoping to get him with Bog, but he plays a Natures Claim on it :( and I lose to him grinding me with Putrid Imp and never really do too much. That was a frustrating game.

RIP Miracles with Blood Moon!!!!! Yay! Game 1 I Decay his first RIP. He plays a T4 Helm, then rips a RIP off of the top to kill me on T5 :( Game 2 goes long and grindy, but in the end after he entreats me for 4 angels and I deal with them and blood moon a few times, he gets there with another Entreat I believe after we grind for a long time.

Bye! I play EDH because I suck at magic! I found out that Arcum Dagson is a very ridonkulous general. Borby Enraged wasnt ready.

Round 4 we end up playing for the lulz (Alphastryk) against RIP Miracles featuring more blood moons!

Game 1 goes way long. I library myself down to 1 life, but His only V Clique is dead and I have Slaughter Games'd his Entreats. He Helms me for 7 (No RIP out) and gets a KOTR but I decay it. Throughout this game I have used all 4 of my wishes (HullBreach destroying Blood Moon, Maelstrom Pulse Destroying RIP, Slaughtergames naming Entreat, then finally a Dreadbore targeting his final Jace which gets forced. Eventually after PFiring him a bunch earlier I EOT a Dryad Arbor with him at one and get there. Game 2 he gets an early RIP and Helms me. Game 3 he gets Blood Moon Down with Meddling Mage naming Decay, but luckily my hand is 2x Countryside Crusher and 4x spells I will never cast. I end up Crushing Countrysides. Man I love that dude.

Overall, like Jeff said, Miracles is an incredibly skill intensive MU. I feel it is winnable, but very difficult. I will definitely be playing Reverent Silence next week. I continue to love Hull Breach in the board in my Meta full of Blood Moons. Was going to test Goyfs out but the guy I was going to borrow from got sick. God at this point Im half debating playing Verdant Catacombs as my Fetches and playing basic Forest and Swamp in this hostile Meta.


EDIT: I remember in round 2 Game 2 I played a DDreams for 4 with him at 5 lands out and a couple of Entreat Tokens. He proceeds to rip RIP. Plays his second land and fucks me. I regret not just DDreams for 5. Would have at leasxt kept him off of a RIP for at least one turn.

[CaptainTwiddle]

I'm really interested in brewing a Loam list with Young Pyromancer. It has been touched on briefly earlier in this thread already, so here is my list.

CREATURES
2 Countryside Crusher (Not sure on this. Deck needs a beater and this seemed like the best at closing out games and avoiding land flood late game)
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
4 Young Pyromancer
SPELLS
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Burning Wish
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Faithless Looting
3 Life from the Loam
3 Liliana of the Veil (Not sure on number. With DRS and Mox, turn 2 Lilly seems strong, but maybe not relevant enough against combo. Thoughtseize?)
3 Mox Diamond
3 Punishing Fire
LAND
23
# Grove of the Burnwillows
# Wasteland
# ON Cycling lands
# Fetches
# Taiga, Bayou, Badlands
? Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

I'm having a hard time with the mana base, as the deck is color hungry but also wants to run Wasteland and some number of ON Cycling lands (Forgotten Cave, Tranquil Thicket, Barren Moor).

Sideboard would contain assorted wish targets as a toolbox, including Raven's Crime, and possibly Flame Jab, to combo w/ Pyromancer, as well as LftL number 4.

[Aggro_zombies]

The lack of Dark Confidant or Sylvan Library in that list is puzzling. The 1/1 tokens are not particularly relevant unless you can kill literally all of your opponent's creatures (not happening) or you have a lot of them, and 1-2 Loams per turn is just not going to cut it. Plus, relying on Loam to trigger Pyromancer regularly makes you super easy to shut down post-board. Confidant and Library provide extra sources of long-term card advantage and dig you into more spells to fuel Pyromancer without needing the graveyard to do so.

Not running Assault or Dreams also seems wrong to me. Why run Loam at all, then? You can just play Punishing Jund and not have to stuff your deck full of lands and Diamonds and other do-nothings. Hell, Pyromancer seems fine in Punishing Jund, especially in conjunction with a bigger discard suite to strip your opponent of his ability to stabilize against your 1/1s.

[Megadeus]

The lack of Dark Confidant or Sylvan Library in that list is puzzling. The 1/1 tokens are not particularly relevant unless you can kill literally all of your opponent's creatures (not happening) or you have a lot of them, and 1-2 Loams per turn is just not going to cut it. Plus, relying on Loam to trigger Pyromancer regularly makes you super easy to shut down post-board. Confidant and Library provide extra sources of long-term card advantage and dig you into more spells to fuel Pyromancer without needing the graveyard to do so.

Not running Assault or Dreams also seems wrong to me. Why run Loam at all, then? You can just play Punishing Jund and not have to stuff your deck full of lands and Diamonds and other do-nothings. Hell, Pyromancer seems fine in Punishing Jund, especially in conjunction with a bigger discard suite to strip your opponent of his ability to stabilize against your 1/1s.

Im glad someone agrees with me about YP. In a deck that is only trying to cast 2 CMC spells for the most part, getting an extra 1/1 per turn is very meh. This deck is all about synergies and all, but the only synergies that an extra 1/1 provides in this deck is a chump blocker

[CaptainTwiddle]

Im glad someone agrees with me about YP. In a deck that is only trying to cast 2 CMC spells for the most part, getting an extra 1/1 per turn is very meh. This deck is all about synergies and all, but the only synergies that an extra 1/1 provides in this deck is a chump blocker

The idea with YP is to gain added value while disrupting the opponent. Burn a creature, get 1/1. Make them discard, get a 1/1. And the synergy of YP with Cabal Therapy is insane.

In looking over the list again, I think that it does need more instants/sorceries to take better advantage of YP. I'm thinking cut 2 Liliana for a Thoughtseize and a Raven's Crime.

As for Aggro_zombies's comments, you're probably right that the deck needs either Dark Confidant or Sylvan Library. But Devasting Dreams seems really bad, as it kills you YP and all the tokens you've made. Seismic Assault seems hard on the mana, is not a instant/sorcerie, and failed to impress me in previous Loam builds.

Another problem I'm having is the number of different cards I'd like to run in this list. Smallpox and Lightning Bolt both come to mind. I've also considered splashing white for Knight of the Reliquary and Lingering Souls, but I don't think the mana could support it.

In the end, maybe Hooglan's 4C Loam Control list is just better.

[Megadeus]

The idea with YP is to gain added value while disrupting the opponent. Burn a creature, get 1/1. Make them discard, get a 1/1. And the synergy of YP with Cabal Therapy is insane.

In looking over the list again, I think that it does need more instants/sorceries to take better advantage of YP. I'm thinking cut 2 Liliana for a Thoughtseize and a Raven's Crime.

As for Aggro_zombies's comments, you're probably right that the deck needs either Dark Confidant or Sylvan Library. But Devasting Dreams seems really bad, as it kills you YP and all the tokens you've made. Seismic Assault seems hard on the mana, is not a instant/sorcerie, and failed to impress me in previous Loam builds.

Another problem I'm having is the number of different cards I'd like to run in this list. Smallpox and Lightning Bolt both come to mind. I've also considered splashing white for Knight of the Reliquary and Lingering Souls, but I don't think the mana could support it.

In the end, maybe Hooglan's 4C Loam Control list is just better.
But like he said, if you aren't paying stuff like dreams and assault, why not just skip loam and play jund? You basically have named everything from jund except instead of BBE you play loam and ravens crime. I see your point, but loam is already a somewhat underwhelming engine, and assault and dreams gives you a splashy effect that makes loam worth it

[Aggro_zombies]

As for Aggro_zombies's comments, you're probably right that the deck needs either Dark Confidant or Sylvan Library. But Devasting Dreams seems really bad, as it kills you YP and all the tokens you've made. Seismic Assault seems hard on the mana, is not a instant/sorcerie, and failed to impress me in previous Loam builds.
Seismic Assault is only hard on the mana if you're also going to run Liliana, since then you need to hit BB, RRR, and at least GG reliably, or if you want to be greedy and run four colors. Also, for several years, Assault was literally the only good reason to consider running a Life from the Loam deck; if it "failed to impress" you, you probably don't want to be playing Aggro Loam.

Dreams completely crushes a number of non-blue fair decks in the format, so it is at least a sideboard consideration. Pyromancer merely chumps in many of those matchups, while Dreams will take your opponent out of the game, so the swap is usually pretty clean.

Raven's Crime is a really bad Mind Twist. If you're considering running Crime, you might want to try drawing up a Punishing Jund list and stick YP in that - it is probably far more effective.

[Hencules]

A few posts ago, I was a pyromancer believer as well. Megadeus explained it perfectly. Yp might be a nice engine, but not with loam. It's just too cute. Furthermore, you don't want that extra value of the token and you certainly don't want it to be your kill. If you want tokens as a kill, I found a singleton worm harvest to be awesome. There are a lot of long, grindy match ups in my meta. Worm harvest helps.

So you should either play a more traditional loam list (4cc, aggro, control, June, whatever suits your needs) play a whole bunch of games and gently start tweaking if necessary, or just play another shell for Yp.

I'm fairly confident that the best shell for Yp is a tempo type build, u/r or something. A whole bunch of brainstorm, lightning bolt, chain lightning, ponder, daze, fow, delver etc. But I might be wrong.

Currently I play Jeff hooglands list, it's just a breath of fresh air to have so many options. It's just exactly my style of mtg.

[KntrellCL]

My eyes were bleeding on that round 6. Awful performance

[Megadeus]

I just caught the tail end of it. Looked tough. Lots of mis plays or what?

[KntrellCL]

I just caught the tail end of it. Looked tough. Lots of mis plays or what?

Sorry for my english, Im an american who forgot his own native language hehe (18 years away).

I cant remember all the missplays I saw but i would do my best.

On G1, He was on the draw with a very good hand. Opp started with land into DRS. He draws, plays a wasteland mox diamond (pitching badlands I think) into Sylvan library which got countered by FOW (he had chalice of the void in hand, which is a very good FoW bait or in any other case, it would stop any second DRS copy, brainstorms or bait an abrupt decay which could destroy your library -which you play only 2 copies and would give you plenty more advantage on the draw). Second turn his opponent landed a second DRS... then a goyf, jace, decay, GG.

On G2, he started just with a Wooded Foothills, his oponent with a Creeping Tar Pit. T2 chalice at 1 (he fetches a savannah telegraphing a turn 3 KOTR or Thalia and having no protection for his lands, people underestimate the power of your SINGLE basic land). The oponent land a trop island and end his turn. Turn 3 (he commits I think the worst thing you can do) He had 1 Thalia, 1 LFTL, 1 Wasteland and I think a burning wish on hand. He wasteland the creeping tar pit and cast the Thalia with no other land drops on his hand. EVERY single time he should have Loam, he's not the beater deck... BUG shardless play at least twice creature than his deck (he could land the third land into Agent-Goyf or worst) or just wasteland your green source and GG.

Another missplays I remember, He fetches for a Plateau (which was the best dual land in that turn) but he took it back and played a second Taiga (He had KOTR on his hand and then he couldnt cast it).

His oponente board was 5 lands 2 DRS 1 Agent. He draws a Devastating dreams (he did have a burning any case). Burning wish for Loam, put a wasteland on play and THEN cast a devastating dreams for 3 (having 4 cards left in his hand). He should keep that wasteland on hand and do a dreams for 2 instead of 3 (was he afraid of jace? :S) he discarded his single loam which got exiled before the resolution of dreams with the shaman.

At some point he was at 4 and just a single land, he draws a cycle land and draw... risking a safe land drop for a random card from the top (he top decked a Maze of Ith, but it was a suboptimal play any case).

On early game on G1 he had a online DRS, his oponent used the DRS giving him a window for loaming. He had Nantuko Monastery on the GY and he just picked any land he first saw. If you have 1-of cards, you should try to save them most of the times, especially Nantuko Monastery which can take down a PWs pretty easily.

Anyway, he didnt draw any Punishing Fire and drew GSZ with dryad on hand. Bad luck, dude! He was 4-1-1 at the end of that round... I hope he can do a straight 3 wins for top8!

[KntrellCL]

In other news, Jeff Hoogland is 7-1 until now...great!

PS: He did 3 straight wins to top 8! I hope to see both aggro loam on finals hehehe

[Hencules]

In other news, Jeff Hoogland is 7-1 until now...great!

PS: He did 3 straight wins to top 8! I hope to see both aggro loam on finals hehehe

He isn't in t8, right? Too bad, would've love to see that.

[edit] duh, kurt is....

[KntrellCL]

He isn't in t8, right? Too bad, would've love to see that.

Yes, he won R9 against deathblade making 3 wins in a row since R6. Quarter final against belcher -.-

[Megadeus]

Super awkward vs Belcher. Our chalices aren't overly effective vs them unfortunately. I personally think Chalice on 0 > Chalice on One in this match up. Either way they are kind of meh. (not that I would board them out).

[KntrellCL]

led is the most effective card (0x3 mana) to either activate belcher or a good burning wish

[Hencules]

Too bad, he lost. He did have nice hands, but Ben starting seemed the doom.

[Megadeus]

Twas rough. Unfortunate. Ugh Blood Moons are going to be everywhere in two weeks when I play the open lol. I may play reverent silence and Hull Breach both in my SB...

[Aggro_zombies]

Twas rough. Unfortunate. Ugh Blood Moons are going to be everywhere in two weeks when I play the open lol. I may play reverent silence and Hull Breach both in my SB...
Welcome to the perils of playing a greedy deck.

[Hencules]

I love the 4C loam list of Hoogland, but I have a problem. Nic Fit is terrible to play against, in particular the Scapeshift version. I have chalice on one and gaddock teeg as good cards against them, but they have plenty of answer to those. A scary scapeshift wrecks me. Perhaps it's not a deck you run in too often, but some local players play it here.

I really have the feeling that a better player than me would win, though. I still suck at the decision-making process, I guess. Do more experienced players have some clear do's and don'ts with the 4C Hoogland list?

[Megadeus]

I love the 4C loam list of Hoogland, but I have a problem. Nic Fit is terrible to play against, in particular the Scapeshift version. I have chalice on one and gaddock teeg as good cards against them, but they have plenty of answer to those. A scary scapeshift wrecks me. Perhaps it's not a deck you run in too often, but some local players play it here.

I really have the feeling that a better player than me would win, though. I still suck at the decision-making process, I guess. Do more experienced players have some clear do's and don'ts with the 4C Hoogland list?

I haven't played against it before, but it looks like it would be a nightmare match up. I don't know much about the match up, but I feel like early wasteland and devastating dreams is key considering how mana heavy they can tend to be. Also I think you should board out chalice. Maybe it is wrong, but I don't know.

[Hencules]

I haven't played against it before, but it looks like it would be a nightmare match up. I don't know much about the match up, but I feel like early wasteland and devastating dreams is key considering how mana heavy they can tend to be. Also I think you should board out chalice. Maybe it is wrong, but I don't know.

Chalice is quite usefull, more so on the play. On the draw it's kinda meh. Wastelands certainly help. However, thinking about this, I think this tells me I need a slaughter games in the board. I can race to burning wish-- pact faster than they can assemble their stuff. And games on scapeshift is a great play. However, they still have 4 burning wish and a scapeshift in the board. That's the best I can think of.

[Megadeus]

0-2-1 tonight. The deck is fine. I'm just a terrible player... I'm losing confidence in my ability to play this deck (not that I ever thought I was good). Hopefully I can right the ship here. Otherwise I may end up switching decks again unfortunately :/ Other wise I played against Dredge in round 1 (third week in a row Ive played dredge in round 1 I believe), and got mauled. Round 2 I played vs. Shardless BUG, game 1 went long and he scooped. Game two I got battered by multiple goyfs, Game 3 Im not really sure what happened. I guess I just got outplayed. Round 3 was vs RIP Miracles with Blood Moon (Third week in a row vs this as well I believe) and it went to time. I lost game 1 (he plays 10 basics~!!!!!!!!!!!) finally to an eot Entreat for lethal. I win game two because he draws 3 lands (2 of them non basic and I waste him out), and game 3 we go to time. Im not really sure who would have won. It was still up in the air. Honestly I may just play 4 Leyline next week. No one plays storm up at my store anymore since Phazonmuant moved. All of the combo is dredge, and a decent amount of the fair decks are loam decks.

[Hencules]

0-2-1 tonight. The deck is fine. I'm just a terrible player... I'm losing confidence in my ability to play this deck (not that I ever thought I was good). Hopefully I can right the ship here. Otherwise I may end up switching decks again unfortunately :/ Other wise I played against Dredge in round 1 (third week in a row Ive played dredge in round 1 I believe), and got mauled. Round 2 I played vs. Shardless BUG, game 1 went long and he scooped. Game two I got battered by multiple goyfs, Game 3 Im not really sure what happened. I guess I just got outplayed. Round 3 was vs RIP Miracles with Blood Moon (Third week in a row vs this as well I believe) and it went to time. I lost game 1 (he plays 10 basics~!!!!!!!!!!!) finally to an eot Entreat for lethal. I win game two because he draws 3 lands (2 of them non basic and I waste him out), and game 3 we go to time. Im not really sure who would have won. It was still up in the air. Honestly I may just play 4 Leyline next week. No one plays storm up at my store anymore since Phazonmuant moved. All of the combo is dredge, and a decent amount of the fair decks are loam decks.

Meh, that sucks. I'm doing well in my meta, only Nic Fit is giving me trouble here. Lots of fair decks, lots of storm (both of which I have a good game against). Most decks remain a meta-call, right?

[Megadeus]

Meh, that sucks. I'm doing well in my meta, only Nic Fit is giving me trouble here. Lots of fair decks, lots of storm (both of which I have a good game against). Most decks remain a meta-call, right?

Yeah. Last night out of like 15 players I think 3 were on dredge (20 percent lol). My meta is just super weird right now and I probably should tweak it a bit for the meta.

[Tyrio]

I managed to top 4 split at Megadeus's store last night. I'm running the stock 4C List except with no Bobs, -1 Burning Wish and -1 Badlands for +2 Goyf, +1 Scavenging Ooze, +1 GSZ and +1 Bojuka Bog. Sideboard is the usual fare but with a Massacre instead of the Chainer's Edict. Our store is obsessed with durdly graveyard decks so I decided to maindeck the Ooze and Bog to metagame.

Rd 1 was 2-0 against Meekstone White Weenie

Punishing Fire and Chalice for 1 stop a lot of his early beats, with a Devastating Dreams killing 3 creatures and wiping his board while leaving me with a Goyf and a fat KotR. A timely Meekstone locks me down for several turns while he rebuilds with a Mirran Crusader. I hurrdurr and forget that Nantuko Monastery is green and white and not colorless and chump attack with it into his Crusader. Another Devastating Dreams wipes his board again and I kill him with the Insect Monk.

Round 2 he has an extremely slow start and I eventually just DD him again with a lethal KotR.


Rd 2 was 2-0 (!) against Dredge

He starts with a PImp and I start with a Chalice on 1. He discards a Stinky Imp with his PImp but brainfarts and forgets to dredge on his turn 2. He plays a second land and Breakthroughs but gets a bit unlucky and doesn't flip another dredger after his Imp. A couple turns pass and he builds up a board of 3 Narcomoebas, a zombie token and some Ichorids while I have a KotR and a Goyf. He goes for the Dread Return on Griselbrand and I sink him in the Bojuka Bog. He can't rebuild in time through my Chalice and main Ooze causes him to scoop.

G2 I keep a hand with Bog, Waste and Loam. T2 Bog slows him down again while I build towards Wasting my own Bog, and then Loaming+Replaying. I herpderp somewhere on T5 and play a land before I Waste my Bog and Loam it, giving him another turn to do shenanigans but once again his dredges prove mediocre. He brings me very low with a Threshold PImp and 2 Nacromoebas, but I eventually Wish for a DD and kill him.

Rd 3 - ID with Stoneblade.

Quarterfinals 2-0 Shardless BUG

I start with Chalice on 1 and then later a Chalice on 0. He Decays my first Chalice and plays a DRS and Brainstorm. I kill his DRS and build up mana while he plays out 2 Shardless Agents - the first of which gets him an Ancestral Visions (hah!) and the second of which gets a Baleful Strix. I proceed to Devastate his Dreams and smash him with a KotR and a ScOoze.

G2 plays out similarly, I get a KotR and get to work ravaging his manabase. At one points he FoWs my Loam so I can't double waste him in one turn. I make a Wish and Devastate his Dreams once again, leaving him with nothing (but a suspended AV) and me with everything. His AV goes off and he makes a Nihil Spellbomb, shrinking my Knight to non-lethaI. I make a few misplays where I allow him to get back to 2 mana to Decay my Knight and then promptly dredge my other 3 Knights and a Goyf away. I probably make another misplay where I decide to Loam back my Waste to kill another land instead of murdering a DRS. However, he declines to eat my Loam and then dies to a followup Goyf.

~~

TL;DR - As mentioned in the thread, most Legacy decks simply cannot ever beat a resolved Devastating Dreams. With popular decks running fewer and fewer counterspells, Loam seems pretty well positioned (3 Loams in te t16 at the latest open I think). BUG and Deathblade seem like easy matchups - no basics and only a few FoWs to protect its dreams. Sucks that Megadeus has been having such poor luck - he gets the worst matchups every week.

[Megadeus]

Rd 2 was 2-0 (!) against Dredge

He starts with a PImp and I start with a Chalice on 1. He discards a Stinky Imp with his PImp but brainfarts and forgets to dredge on his turn 2. He plays a second land and Breakthroughs but gets a bit unlucky and doesn't flip another dredger after his Imp. A couple turns pass and he builds up a board of 3 Narcomoebas, a zombie token and some Ichorids while I have a KotR and a Goyf. He goes for the Dread Return on Griselbrand and I sink him in the Bojuka Bog. He can't rebuild in time through my Chalice and main Ooze causes him to scoop.


Your Dredge opponent forgot to Dredge? FML

Why do I have to play vs the competent dredge players?!

I mean part is my MUs but part is play skill as well. That game you played vs Shardless was a good one. Much better than when that same Shardless player somehow ended up beating me.

[Madmankevinx]

So in regards to Volrath's Stronghold: I love it. Lately I have been finding myself in a few awkward positions where I have cast Devastating Dreams just to hit the reset button. I know, I know. Risky play! It hasn't lost me a game yet though since we are running 26 lands and are much more likely to recover first. Volrath's has been the deciding factor in these games since I am aggressively dredging and throwing my beaters in the yard. I am starting to really enjoy this deck! I'm still undecided on Bobs vs. Goyfs though...

[Hencules]

So in regards to Volrath's Stronghold: I love it. Lately I have been finding myself in a few awkward positions where I have cast Devastating Dreams just to hit the reset button. I know, I know. Risky play! It hasn't lost me a game yet though since we are running 26 lands and are much more likely to recover first. Volrath's has been the deciding factor in these games since I am aggressively dredging and throwing my beaters in the yard. I am starting to really enjoy this deck! I'm still undecided on Bobs vs. Goyfs though...

Bobs and goyfs are a meta call IMO. Bobs have been working great for me, so I'll keep them. Hoogland has discussed Volrath's stronghold and why he doesn't like it. He says that since it isn't intended to make mana (and you don't want to cut utility lands or a color land for it), you should cut a spell for it. And since space for spells is so tight, there's very little you could remove for a copy of stronghold without making the deck worse.

When playing correctly (which I, by all means, am not even close to do), you'll often won't need it. In a multiple-round tournament, where fatigue might cause error, having that bit of buffer might be nice though. When I play around the kitchen table, advantageous situations where stronghold gets me the kill often allow me to kill some time later without it anyway. It feels like win-more to me.

I play the Bob-Hoogland list, but -1 Bob and +1 devastating dreams. It's just thát powerful IMO.

[Megadeus]

Me and my roommate just split a set of goyfs so I'll be trying out 2 giyf Wednesday and then, SCG ATL this weekend! Hopefully you guys will see me playing on my prime titan play mat!

[Hencules]

Me and my roommate just split a set of goyfs so I'll be trying out 2 giyf Wednesday and then, SCG ATL this weekend! Hopefully you guys will see me playing on my prime titan play mat!

Awesome! Would love to see a report of it, later on. I still could use all the information on the deck I can get!

GL this weekend!

[Megadeus]

Thanks! I will definitely need it! Having played against Dredge three weeks in a row and Blood Moon/RIP miracles every week pretty much has torn my heart out at the local. My goal truthfully is to finish the tourney and have a positive record. Ive never finished an SCG event... Best I have gone is 4-3 (drop). Hopefully I can change that this weekend!

Also it has been super cool seeing Loam decks top 8'ing and being on feature matches lately.

[defector]

@Megadues: Good luck at the SCG please let us know how it went.

I just started playing this deck and it is my new favorite KOTR deck. I just piloted it to a 4-0 at my local with the following match ups and list.

Lands 26
Wooded Foothills 4
Wasteland 4
Tranquil Thicket 2
Forgotten Cave 2
Grove of the Burnwillows 2
Taiga 2
Karakas 1
Nantuko Monastery 1
Badlands 1
Bayou 1
Plateau 1
Dryad Arbor 1
Savannah 1
Forest 1
Bojuka Bog 1
Maze of Ith 1



Artifacts 8
Chalice of the Void 4
Mox Diamond 4

Green 9
Life from the Loam 3
Tarmogoyf 2
Sylvan Library 2
Green Sun's Zenith 2

Red 9
Burning Wish 4
Punishing Fire 3
Devastating Dreams 2

Gold 8
Knight of the Reliquary 4
Abrupt Decay 3
Gaddock Teeg 1





Sideboard 15
Ethersworn Canonist 2
Abrupt Decay 1
Slaugher Games X1
Gaddock Teeg X1
Massacre X1
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben 4
Devastating Dreams 1
Life from the Loam 1
Maelstrom Pulse 1
Reverant Silence 1
Shattering Spree 1

Round 1: Zoo Went 2-1. Chalice for 1 g1, got bolted out g2 and then Wasteland locked him out g3.
Round 2: Painter Stone: Had Diamond and AD and Bog opening and was able to keep them of the combo G2 my opp got mana fucked and I stole one.
Round 3: DnT: Devastating Dreams won me G1 and G3. Lost to a B Skull G2.
Round 4: AnT: Runner runner chalice G1 got it done, lost g2 and had the full hate out g3.

I love this deck, so much fun to play and so many ways to play it. I am making a few changes and was looking for some feedback on a few questions. I am cutting one of the Tarmogoyfs for a Terravore to test out this Saturday. I want to cut Slaughter Games, Teeg, and Massacre out of the board to put in 3 Bobs. I want to add Bob because it seems wrong to not play Bon in a deck with 34 zero costs and nothing over 3. I see Bob has gone in and out of different lists over the history of the deck and I was wondering if anyone could give me some insight into that evolution. I understand that the mana base isn't that black friendly and that DD is bad for Bob, but is that really enough to warrant not running what is one of the best cards in magic? I've seen some creature configs like:
KOTR X4
Bob X4
Teeg X1
Which looks amazing, but I haven't tried it out yet. Does that force you to choose Crusher over KoTR to drop white? Just kind of running ideas around in my mind. Is Dreadbore really warrant a sb slot? It seems like everyone runs one, but I haven't needed one yet.
Anyway, any and all sideboard insights welcome.
cheers!
defector

[Megadeus]

@Megadues: Good luck at the SCG please let us know how it went.

I just started playing this deck and it is my new favorite KOTR deck. I just piloted it to a 4-0 at my local with the following match ups and list.

Lands 26
Wooded Foothills 4
Wasteland 4
Tranquil Thicket 2
Forgotten Cave 2
Grove of the Burnwillows 2
Taiga 2
Karakas 1
Nantuko Monastery 1
Badlands 1
Bayou 1
Plateau 1
Dryad Arbor 1
Savannah 1
Forest 1
Bojuka Bog 1
Maze of Ith 1



Artifacts 8
Chalice of the Void 4
Mox Diamond 4

Green 9
Life from the Loam 3
Tarmogoyf 2
Sylvan Library 2
Green Sun's Zenith 2

Red 9
Burning Wish 4
Punishing Fire 3
Devastating Dreams 2

Gold 8
Knight of the Reliquary 4
Abrupt Decay 3
Gaddock Teeg 1





Sideboard 15
Ethersworn Canonist 2
Abrupt Decay 1
Slaugher Games X1
Gaddock Teeg X1
Massacre X1
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben 4
Devastating Dreams 1
Life from the Loam 1
Maelstrom Pulse 1
Reverant Silence 1
Shattering Spree 1

Round 1: Zoo Went 2-1. Chalice for 1 g1, got bolted out g2 and then Wasteland locked him out g3.
Round 2: Painter Stone: Had Diamond and AD and Bog opening and was able to keep them of the combo G2 my opp got mana fucked and I stole one.
Round 3: DnT: Devastating Dreams won me G1 and G3. Lost to a B Skull G2.
Round 4: AnT: Runner runner chalice G1 got it done, lost g2 and had the full hate out g3.

I love this deck, so much fun to play and so many ways to play it. I am making a few changes and was looking for some feedback on a few questions. I am cutting one of the Tarmogoyfs for a Terravore to test out this Saturday. I want to cut Slaughter Games, Teeg, and Massacre out of the board to put in 3 Bobs. I want to add Bob because it seems wrong to not play Bon in a deck with 34 zero costs and nothing over 3. I see Bob has gone in and out of different lists over the history of the deck and I was wondering if anyone could give me some insight into that evolution. I understand that the mana base isn't that black friendly and that DD is bad for Bob, but is that really enough to warrant not running what is one of the best cards in magic? I've seen some creature configs like:
KOTR X4
Bob X4
Teeg X1
Which looks amazing, but I haven't tried it out yet. Does that force you to choose Crusher over KoTR to drop white? Just kind of running ideas around in my mind. Is Dreadbore really warrant a sb slot? It seems like everyone runs one, but I haven't needed one yet.
Anyway, any and all sideboard insights welcome.
cheers!
defector

A few questions regarding this list, the general decklists everyone has posted has 5 Cycle lands and you play 4? Did you just feel that a Bojuka Bog MB was better? People still run Bob to great success and I do not see why it wouldn't work out! Goyf just has better synergy with the decks gameplan, but Bob is great for drawing cards. In a Miracles heavy meta or something of the sort he is definitely a great CA engine.

I think KOTR and white are definitely where you want to be in this deck. Land Tutoring with KOTR and having acces to real combo hate is just awesome. I have used dreadbore allot. Probably the second most out of my SB slots (after Loam). But that is because I seem to play a Jace deck every week.

This week I will be playing Reverent Silence and Shattering Spree over Hull Breach and Duress. I havent wished for Duress in a long long time. I may also play a Morning Tide as well due to Dredge being so heavily represented in my meta right now... That one was Tyrio's idea though.

[defector]

I wanted another source of black as well as the gy disrupt main. The fifth cycle land seemed like it was least necessary. I guess the Miracles density drives the Bob vs Goyf debate, makes sense. I'm still too new to the deck to claim any expertness, I may be totally wrong about the bog. I love KotR and couldn't cut him. I haven't tested dredge at all morningtide seems like a draconian solution, but hey if thats what it takes than so be it. Looking forward to yourresults.

[Megadeus]

I wanted another source of black as well as the gy disrupt main. The fifth cycle land seemed like it was least necessary. I guess the Miracles density drives the Bob vs Goyf debate, makes sense. I'm still too new to the deck to claim any expertness, I may be totally wrong about the bog. I love KotR and couldn't cut him. I haven't tested dredge at all morningtide seems like a draconian solution, but hey if thats what it takes than so be it. Looking forward to yourresults.

Thats fair. I will not claim to be a good player at all so Im sure that a majority of my decisions are below average. I have also debating cutting a cycle land at times, but I also like them because not only are they our uncounterable draw spells, they also can second as a bad basic land if needed. But cutting one may be right. To anyone playing Horizon Canopy over the third Tranquil Thicket, how has that been for you?

[KntrellCL]

I dont like Horizon Canopy on Loams deck. You have to pay 1 mana and lose a land to draw a card, which is the same as paying 1 for a cycle land (which you WANT on the GY) and draw the card. In aggro loam you dont have any booster to get presence on board as Lands deck do with exploration. So, losing a land for a draw seems pretty bad to me, and Im telling you this with testing not just words

[Megadeus]

I believe it. I just like that it is a T1 source of mana. I have a lot of hands where I have Mox Diamond and 2 Tap lands and wish the cycle land would be able to cast my chalice for 1 or something On t1. Just my random thought, but yes I see what you are saying about Canopy taking up a land drop hurting allot.

[defector]

The killing part about this deck is the lands we dont get to play. Id love an academy ruins, v stronghold and second karakas, but we end up with only 1 flex slot. I think at the end of the day you can't kill yourself over the 60th card, but in my mind they rank: bog>V. Stronghol>cycle#5>academy ruins>Karakas#2. I think you could any one of them and see good things thats just how they rank up in my mind.

[Megadeus]

I play 61 cards :p 2 Flex Slots ftw

[defector]

61 cards, it's unorthodox, some might even call it HERESY!! I can't bring myself to do it, maybe I'll test some of it. Can something that feels so wrong be right:) Anyway good luck with it:)

[KntrellCL]

I always use the 16th sb card as the 61 card on my main deck. Especially on loams deck which you can dredge through your deck so easily. I play 27 lands on my aggro loam and 34 spells

[Megadeus]

I always use the 16th sb card as the 61 card on my main deck. Especially on loams deck which you can dredge through your deck so easily. I play 27 lands on my aggro loam and 34 spells

This. With Dredging and having KOTR as a tutor effect, the 61st card really doesnt change much in percentages compared to other decks. I believe Im at 28 lands right now. Id like to cut another one for a GSZ though.

[Megadeus]

I apologize for double posting, but... Someone please convince me that Daybreak Ranger is a shitty card and that I shouldn't play it at the open.

[pointicus]

Its a shitty card, you shouldn't play it at the open. You play punishing fire to kill x/2s, why play pfire on a stick that costs more than tarmogoyf and is not kotr/crusher/terravore.

[Aggro_zombies]

I apologize for double posting, but... Someone please convince me that Daybreak Ranger is a shitty card and that I shouldn't play it at the open.
Okay.

1) It has the same CMC as Knight, Terravore, and Crusher, all of which are more synergistic with this deck's game plan. Overloading on three-drops makes the deck top-heavy and susceptible to tempo plays or aggressive starts from opponents.

2) The day-side tap ability is not very relevant. It is worse than either Grim Lavamancer or Punishing Fire since it has targeting restrictions and requires a tap.

3) The day-side body is not very relevant. Vanilla 2/2s Do Not Cut It in Legacy.

4) Flipping this creature from day- to night-side involves giving up casting spells on your turn, which is not a normal line of play in a deck with a number of recursion elements. You could hope that your opponent can't play spells on his turn, but given the cheapness of spells in Legacy, this is plan is suspect.

5) The night-side body is approximately Tarmogoyf-sized, but for more mana and the cost of tempo. A blue opponent can easily flip this card back over unless you have Chalice in play first, in which case you're using a reasonably card to enable a crappy one. It's also smaller than a Knight, Crusher, or Terravore would be, but for the same amount of mana.

6) The night-side body is easy for you to flip back over: a Loam plus any other spell will do it, or multiple Punishing Fire casts in a single turn will do it (often necessary when taking out larger targets).

7) The fight ability on the night-side either involves tapping your 4/4 to take out something much smaller than a 4/4 or suiciding your 4/4 into your opponent's creature. Neither of those things are exactly something you want to do with the beefy guy you spent a turn to level up.

8) The day-side will not survive most Devastating Dreams, and the night-side will not survive most mid- to large-sized Dreams.

But hey, if you like it, then run it.

[Megadeus]

You guys convinced me. Still the card isnt the worst thing in the world. Played with Goyfs for the first time ever in a tourney setting and I gotta say. That is a damn good card. All in all I went 2-2, but thems the beats. Our local meta is horribly hostile to Loam decks at the moment unfortunately.

Round 1: UWR Delver

Game 1 He gets a T1 Delver to flip, counters my punishing fire, and gets a Geist down and I die to a top decked red source for lethal Lightning Bolt

Game 2 He begins with Delver and Meddling Mage naming Punishing Fire and begins the beats. He gets a GoST down and the turn before Im dead I rip a Burning wish for Massacre and wipe his board. He puts in a Batterskull at some point but I have a larger KOTR. I play Gaddock Teeg and begin beating him with Teeg and Dryad Arbor. He plays RIP and shuts down PFire and loam, but at some point I play a chalice for 1 and he just draws stone nothing threat wise.

Game 3 He doesnt do too much. I get early PFire for his delvers and stuff and waste him down. He gets down a RIP but I wish for Reverent Silence and get it. Eventually after a few turns of dryad Arbor Beats I get a 5/5 KOTR and he doesnt have any lands and he dies.

1-0

Round 2: Burn Yuck

Game 1 I keep a decent hand, but not decent vs burn. I die on like T4 to double Lightning Bolt.

Game 2 I get a chalice on one and get 2 KOTR down, but from 13 life he double Price of Progress, and then Fireblasts me. Hooray!

1-1

Round 3: UWR Stone Blade

Game 1 He gets an early V Clique against me and Tempos me down by countering my recurring PFire every turn. He eventually gets me to 1 until my PFire finally does the job. Damn Spell Snare. I get KOTR, Goyf and Teeg down and he mis plays by chump blocking with his Snapcaster. He doesnt draw the red source he needs for Lightning Bolt in hand to finish the job.

Game 2I get early Teeg down and Punishing Fire some stuff. He Casts Stoneforge getting BSkull, along with having something else on board. I Devastate his Dreams and he gets mana screwed a bit, but gets RIP down which slows me down, but the Grey Ogre of KOTR gets there. Chalice for one also came down at some point and ruined his day. I believe Blood Moon also came down at some point in this game and I had to wish then hard cast reverent silence to kill off Blood Moon and RIP.

2-1

Round 4: UWR RIP Blood Moon Miracles. These goddamn Blood Moon RIP decks are everywhere. I guess its better than being paired vs the Belcher guy.

Due to awkward Breakers I had to play to get in.

Game 1: He gets Blood Moon and RIP against me, but Reverent Silence kills them both. I also get a chalice for 1 down, but unfortunately I cant do anything about his Clique, plus Jace, plus second RIP and I die to a top decked Helm.

Game 2 I get a bit mana screwed but Im not doing horribly with Thalia and Teeg out. He Swords Teeg and Casts Jace and Bounces Thalia. I get a chalice for 1 at some point but he gets counterbalance so instead of recasting Thalia, I save my Decay for the CB at the EoT. He casts a RIP. EoT I cast Decay on CB. He Misdirections it back at my chalice. Im so deflated I just scoop out of frustration. I wasnt going to end up winning anyway...


Overall I felt like I made tight plays for the most part. I missed only one sylvan library trigger, and managed to make sure no one cheated one drops through my chalices. Reverent Silence was a house, but I also wish that I had been playing the Hull Breach tonight. Ill probably play Hull Breach at the open. Its just such a good answer to Blood Moon. I have dropped the Daybreak Ranger to add in a second Green Sun's Zenith. My buddy is letting me borrow his foil Goyfs for the Open... That will be nice alongside my anti pimp everything else lol. Hopefully the Open Meta isn't as hostile towards loam decks as my local is at this point. At least I got to test versus all flavors of UWR tonight!

[defector]

Good luck! Looking forward to a report when you get back:)

[Megadeus]

2-0 so far. Beat URW Delver then (yikes!) Hypergenesiz

Finished 6-2-1. Tourney report probably tomorrow

[Megadeus]

Report is up for anyone who cares/wishes to read about a bad player being good
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?26751-30th-at-SCG-ATL-with-4-Color-Loam&p=752041#post752041