Sudden Spoiling + Progenitus

[Deviruchi]

My opponent attacks me with Progenitus. Before block I cast Sudden Spoiling and than after it resolves I block with something and kill Progenitus. Will it shuffle back into the library or stay in the graveyard ? I was looking for a silver bullet vs Progenitus that dodge Spell Snare and almost CB but I'm confused because I've already asked two judges about this situation and received different verdicts so I need additional help ;)

[Barook]

Loss of all abilities means it stays in the graveyard.

[rufus]

More specifically, the ability on Progenitus has to be in effect before it hits the graveyard, since it's a replacement, but progenitus won't regain the ability until it gets to the graveyard. There's no 'in-between' zone.

[Malchar]

Since the game is battlefield-centric, when something moves to or from the battlefield, you consider its condition when it is on the battlefield to determine which abilities it has (and which other abilities trigger). In this case, Progenitus is moving from the battlefield to somewhere else, so you look at what abilities it had while it was on the battlefield. Since Progenitus lost its ability to be shuffled into the library, it goes to the graveyard as normal.

[rufus]

Since the game is battlefield-centric, when something moves to or from the battlefield, you consider its condition when it is on the battlefield to determine which abilities it has (and which other abilities trigger). In this case, Progenitus is moving from the battlefield to somewhere else, so you look at what abilities it had while it was on the battlefield. Since Progenitus lost its ability to be shuffled into the library, it goes to the graveyard as normal.

That's not actually true, consider something like Guile, and the following:


603.6c Leaves-the-battlefield abilities trigger when a permanent moves from the battlefield to another zone, or when a phased-in permanent leaves the game because its owner leaves the game. These are written as, but aren't limited to, "When [this object] leaves the battlefield, . . ." or "Whenever [something] is put into a graveyard from the battlefield, . . . ." An ability that attempts to do something to the card that left the battlefield checks for it only in the first zone that it went to. An ability that triggers when a card is put into a certain zone "from anywhere" is never treated as a leaves-the-battlefield ability, even if an object is put into that zone from the battlefield.

So, if it were guile and then blocked, it would end up getting reshuffled.

[majikal]

That's not actually true, consider something like Guile, and the following:


So, if it were guile and then blocked, it would end up getting reshuffled.
Guile has an ability that triggers once it is already in the graveyard, so it wouldn't matter if it didn't have that ability on the battlefield. Progenitus has a replacement effect that would prevent it from going to the graveyard in the first place.

[RogueMTG]

Progenitus's ability triggers from the graveyard so it will get shuffled back in. Same is true for Humility, etc.

The fact that the ability triggers regardless of where the card started is a good indication of this - i.e. cards in your library do not have abilities but the hydra still shuffles back if he is milled.

At least - that's how it was explained to me in a match involving Progenitus and Humility :smile:.

This is wrong, it can't trigger from the graveyard, it's a replacement effect. Under normal conditions Progenitus should never even hit the graveyard.

I'm pretty sure Sudden Spoiling & Humility both cause an in-play Progenitus to be put into the graveyard if killed.

[Anusien]

More specifically, the ability on Progenitus has to be in effect before it hits the graveyard, since it's a replacement, but progenitus won't regain the ability until it gets to the graveyard. There's no 'in-between' zone.
This is exactly correct. Progenitus has a static ability that generates a replacement effect that changes what would happen if it goes to the graveyard. It doesn't have this abiilty since Sudden Spoiling removes it, so it happily (or unhappily, it was a mighty Hydra!) goes to the grave like a common creature.

Note that there's no trigger here.

[Malchar]

That's not actually true, consider something like Guile, and the following:


So, if it were guile and then blocked, it would end up getting reshuffled.

Guile's ability doesn't functionally exist when it's on the battlefield, it only happens when Guile is in the graveyard. My original statement still holds true: For abilities that function on the battlefield, the abilities are determined in a battlefield-centric way.

[Maveric78f]

Why does Guile triggers under Humility although it's well known that Academy Rector does not?

[Nihil Credo]

Because Guile's ability is "from anywhere", while Rector's is "from the battlefield". Triggered "from anywhere" abilities are treated differently, I believe because they can trigger when coming from a hidden zone. (Note that Prog's ability is "from anywhere" but it's not a triggered ability, so the exception doesn't apply).


603.6c Leaves-the-battlefield abilities trigger when a permanent moves from the battlefield to another zone, or when a phased-in permanent leaves the game because its owner leaves the game. These are written as, but aren't limited to, "When [this object] leaves the battlefield, . . ." or "Whenever [something] is put into a graveyard from the battlefield, . . . ." An ability that attempts to do something to the card that left the battlefield checks for it only in the first zone that it went to. An ability that triggers when a card is put into a certain zone "from anywhere" is never treated as a leaves-the-battlefield ability, even if an object is put into that zone from the battlefield.

[Maveric78f]

One more inconsistency in the rules. Very difficult to understand that "Whenever [something] is put into a graveyard from the battlefield, . . . ." abilities are considered as a Leaves-the-battlefield ability. It should be considered as an Enters-the-graveyard ability.

Does that mean that Academy Rector will trigger even with Yixlid Jailer on the battlefield?

[rufus]

Does that mean that Academy Rector will trigger even with Yixlid Jailer on the battlefield?

Yes.

Triggers (abilities that are "when" or "at" clauses) which have a "leaves the battlefield", "from the battlefied" or "enters the battlefield" clause are determined based on the object's condition when it is on the battlefield.