[Deck] Kor

[Tacosnape]

Kor is a project I've been working on to give players without a ton of money a viable contender in certain metagames.

The list.

21 Plains

4 Armament Master
4 Kor Duelist
4 Kor Firewalker
4 Stoneforger Mystic
4 Kor Outfitters
4 Kor Sanctifiers

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Path to Exile

2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Basilisk Collar
2 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Sword of Light and Shadow

SB:
4 Enlightened Tutor
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Pithing Needle
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Arena of the Ancients
1 Tsabo's Web
1 Limited Resources
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Powder Keg

Strengths:
-Fairly cheap. Can be built for roughly an ounce of pot.
-Pretty easy learning curve for newer players.
-Very consistent.
-Excellent removal and lifegain makes it strong against most all forms of aggro.
-Completely immune to Wasteland and most manabase disruption strategies.
-Capable of playing either offense or defense very well as the situation demands.
-Versatile hate package in sideboard to replace all but the most necessary equipment.
-A few very strong matchups, like Goblins and Merfolk.
-Several moderate matchups against high tier decks.

Weaknesses:
-Very little disruption or protection maindeck.
-Very little means of disrupting an opponent's manabase.
-Limited card draw and card advantage. Stoneforger and the Equipment is pretty much it.
-A few virtually unwinnable matchups, like 38 Land and Ad Nauseum Tendrils.

Card Selection:

Lands - 21 Plains feels like the right number. 20 felt like too little to keep paying equip costs, 22 got me flooded too often.

The Kor, in order of awesomeness:
1. Armament Master. Seriously retarded. A double lord who wins games.
2. Stoneforge Mystic. Guarantees you get your equipment.
3. Kor Duelist. The 1-drop. Originally ran him with Bonesplitter, which gave the deck more speed, but this guy with either Sword or Jitte is just absolutely bonkers.
4. Kor Firewalker. God on a stick against Goblins. Pretty solid against Zoo, Sligh, Burn, what have you.
5. Kor Sanctifiers. Slightly overpriced, but a solid way to fight off random artifacts and enchantments that cause problems, and the high toughness makes him carry equipment well.
6. Kor Outfitters. Provides 2-3 mana tempo boosts. Better, IMHO, than any of the other guys who could make this slot.

Swords/Path - Eight 1-drop removals? Good times.

Equipment choices - Swords and Jitte win games. The lone Basilisk Collar can be very useful at times, but might be the weakest link of the group.

Sideboard Setup: Okay, so the Enlightened Tutor thing is odd. Works so far, though. Relic and Crypt are for Yard hatery. Seal/Ring/Needle are versatile answers to things. Arena is an out against Iona and Progenitus. Tsabo's Web and Limited Resources are to try and wreck 38 Land. Canonist and Chalice help against Storm Combo and Belcher and the like. And the Powder Keg randomly solves things ranging from Empty the Warrens to low CMC artifacts to Goyfs/Mongeese.

Anyway. It's cheap and pretty effective. Play around with it if you're looking to add another cheap deck to your repertoire.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

Strengths:
-Fairly cheap. Can be built for roughly an ounce of pot.


You just cracked my shit up. XD

EDIT: As far as legitimate feedback, I think you could add a little pizzazz to the mana base. Flagstones of Trokair, Horizon Canopy, Wasteland, and Mutavault... these could all add a little oomph.

[Phoenix Ignition]

First off you really need the cards tag here, who the hell knows what those things are?


Kor is a project I've been working on to give players without a ton of money a viable contender in certain metagames.

The list.

21 Plains

4 Armament Master
4 Kor Duelist
4 Kor Firewalker
4 Stoneforger Mystic
4 Kor Outfitters
4 Kor Sanctifiers

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Path to Exile

2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Basilisk Collar
2 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Sword of Light and Shadow

SB:
4 Enlightened Tutor
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Pithing Needle
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Arena of the Ancients
1 Tsabo's Web
1 Limited Resources
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Powder Keg

.
Fixed

Also why no vials?

[Forbiddian]

Kor Outfitters is pretty nuts with Vial.

I think you'll end up outtempo'd paying to equip stuff and having your creatures killed in response without at least Vial. Mother of Runes also greatly helps with that problem, since she demands removal upfront or she can cover your troops while they're gearing up.

One copy of Thorn of Amethyst should be in the side. Why not?

[arebennian]

Is the ability to equip Kor and have 1 Tribal Synergy outweigh playing

1) the 'best' WW creatures with Equipment
2) a Soldier Tribal (with or without equipment)
3) Kithkin (with or without equipment)

???
I can't see it being that much cheaper if one of these is actually a better option.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

Is the ability to equip Kor and have 1 Tribal Synergy outweigh playing

1) the 'best' WW creatures with Equipment
2) a Soldier Tribal (with or without equipment)
3) Kithkin (with or without equipment)

???
I can't see it being that much cheaper if one of these is actually a better option.

This.

And it's a fact I often lament that White Weenie isn't really a viable strategy anymore. Although I would love for this to be proved wrong, I don't think Kor is anywhere near broken yet. Maybe they'll get something nutty in the new set. But who knows...

[sclabman]

I suggest removing all Kor except the Stoneforge Mystic and maybe the Outfitters. Also I suggest the equip suite to be 2x Jitte, 1x Light and Shadow, 1x Fire and Ice.
Secondly, add Flickerwisp... It can let your stoneforge tutor again. If you're running Flickerwisp you should probably also run Kitchen Finks. Also add Mother of Runes and the best jitte carrier ever (Serra Avenger). Moreover, Jotun Grunt will let you recycle equipment to be tutored again if it's destroyed, aside from being a 4/4 for 2 mana.

Sorry for tearing apart your deck, I just don't get why Kor is even considered a tribe when there's just one of them that even references it as a creature type in it's abilities. Feel free to yell at me :)

[zabuza]

I was trying to develop a deck like this one, but using the good kors and the best creatures available on white to do it.
I think there are only few good kors to play with:

The good ones are:
4 Kor Firewalker (this guy is better if you play red spells too)
4 Stoneforger Mystic (the good tutor)

The acceptable ones are:
4 Kor Duelist
4 Kor Outfitters

Nowdays there are lot of aggro decks everywhere (zoo, naya,...) and this deck suffers a lot because all your dudes die with bolts (minus firewalker)

If you don´t play tribal (which i think is the best option) you could play something like:

4 Mother of runes
4 Kor Duelist
4 Silver Knight
4 Stoneforger Mystic
4 Kor Outfitters
4 Knight of white Orchid
4 Flickerwisp/Kor Skyfisher
2 Jotun Grunt

4 Path to Exile

2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Basilisk Collar
4 Aether Vial

I think this list is competitive wnough to have some success in the actual metagame. What do you think?

[Tacosnape]

If you don't play Tribal, you belong in another thread. This thread is titled "Kor" for a reason.

@Horizon Canopy: This is actually a fantastic idea. In my experimentations with the manabase, I never looked much at this. I'll be testing 18 Plains, 3 Canopy asap.
@Flagstones: Really isn't worth the times people can use Wasteland to shut you off STP for a turn or Blood Moon turning it into a mountain.
@Any Non-white producing land: Not worth it at all. There's way way too much cry for white here.

@Aether Vial: Probably the best card not in the main list. I Never had the draw to support it. It's possible it could find a spot in a Horizon Canopy build though.

@Why Kor versus other White Weenie creatures: Play them. Seriously. I absolutely hate to be this guy, but play them. Kor is the strongest mono-white tribe in Legacy right now, because it's best six are better than any other tribe's best six. These Kor were all printed on the good end of the power creep. Armament Master's a house. Stoneforger Mystic's a house. Kor Duelist is absolutely ridiculous with a Sword or especially a Jitte. Kor Firewalker and Kor Outfitters are pretty good too, and Kor Sanctifiers is currently the best mono-white Disenchant-Creature hybrid there is.

@Thorn of Amethyst: Interesting idea. Back it up. What would it replace and what would it help against?

@Duke: Back up why White Weenie isn't viable. I'd argue I could go 50/50 against the DTB/DTW forum with a deck that costs less than some people's shoes. Kor isn't broken by any means, and probably won't be ever, but for a budget deck, the thing can hang.

[junkdiver]

First, I like the idea of the deck alot.

What about Cataclsym? Maybe 1-3? Leaves you with an equipped kor and a land and leaves them somewhere worse, or resets when things get ugly. If you use cataclysm then obviously flagstones of trokair could become viable.

I want to try to put aether vial/wasteland into the deck, but I always hated wasteland when playing white weenie. Just too much WW, especially without vial. Also, trying not to get too janky, but I wonder about mask of memory? At least tutorable in the sideboard against non-aggro?

[Forbiddian]

@Thorn of Amethyst: Interesting idea. Back it up. What would it replace and what would it help against?

Which matchup do you think it would help? At the very least take out Ethersworn Canonist for it, since Thorn is much much stronger and at the same casting cost. I also don't see Chalice as getting you there, since the fastest you can tutor it up is turn 2 anyway, so I'd probably cut Chalice.



@Duke: Back up why White Weenie isn't viable. I'd argue I could go 50/50 against the DTB/DTW forum with a deck that costs less than some people's shoes. Kor isn't broken by any means, and probably won't be ever, but for a budget deck, the thing can hang.

*Checks deck to beat Forum* Ok, it includes ANT and two versions of Ichorid. I'll take that bet. :-P.

[TW_REB]

Nice deck and major props for taking on such a project (competitive budget deck). I have a couple of questions.

I) What do you consider the "optimal" meta for this deck?
II) What do you consider the worst meta for this deck?
III) Have you tried slight splashes or have you stuck to mono the entire time? The deck looks very WW hungry, but maybe a little blue for stifle and BS to go with some Vials. Just throwing it out there.
IV) No love for Hookmaster? Is the ability to tap down a huge blocker just not needed?
V) Skyfisher? Does it simply retard the board development too much?

EDIT: how would you feel running this into an unknown meta? /EDIT

[Vacrix]

Which matchup do you think it would help? At the very least take out Ethersworn Canonist for it, since Thorn is much much stronger and at the same casting cost. I also don't see Chalice as getting you there, since the fastest you can tutor it up is turn 2 anyway, so I'd probably cut Chalice.

Most combo decks have far more trouble playing around Chalice @ 1. You can't mystical tutor for removal, and you can't cast Chain of Vapor if you boarded it in. Burning Wish is the most immediate threat after Chalice @ 1, instead of giving combo more tutors to find their hate. Sure you might slow them down, but they are built to play around such plays. Chalice is more likely to give you more time to smash face.

[hi-val]

If you can handle ETBtapped lands, what about Rustic Clachan? You could alternately pack that most serious of historical WW cards, Armageddon!

[Mikeleroi]

Some cards that could fit in this deck (instead of 8 removals):

mana tithe ->>> simply awesome, usually the other player doesn´t expect a WW to run counters and you can counter a cmc 4 or 5 spell during the first game. And later you can move them to the SB, but the other player has to worry about possible counters.

to arms! ->>> it seems so harmless, but in a meta with many creatures allows a lot of combat tricks.

silence / orim chant ->>> almost a time walk for W!!

Maybe "honor of the pure"...

Sorry, can´t find the way to tag cards :frown:

[Tacosnape]

*Checks deck to beat Forum* Ok, it includes ANT and two versions of Ichorid. I'll take that bet. :-P.

Well, in my defense, I count Ichorid as one deck. But taking my loss against Ichorid and ANT and taking my wins against Goblins and Merfolk (I'll randomly lose to Merfolk about as often as I randomly beat Ichorid), This would mean I'd have to go 3-3 against Zoo, Tempo Thresh, Bant Survival, Countertop, BGW Survival, and Aggro Loam. I think this deck's quite capable of that. Of these six, the only one that's probably heavily unfavored is Countertop. The Survivals and Zoo are all about even, and Tempo Thresh is pretty workable given that their mana denial package can't touch you. I'd expect to 2-2 those four on average, and 3-1'ing more than I 1-3. So I'm assuming, on average, this is my result:

Win: Goblins, Merfolk, Tempo Thresh.
Lose: ANT, Ichorid, Countertop
Swing matches: Zoo, all Survival
Unknown: Aggro Loam

Because Aggro Loam I honestly haven't tested at all.


Nice deck and major props for taking on such a project (competitive budget deck). I have a couple of questions.

I) What do you consider the "optimal" meta for this deck?
II) What do you consider the worst meta for this deck?
III) Have you tried slight splashes or have you stuck to mono the entire time? The deck looks very WW hungry, but maybe a little blue for stifle and BS to go with some Vials. Just throwing it out there.
IV) No love for Hookmaster? Is the ability to tap down a huge blocker just not needed?
V) Skyfisher? Does it simply retard the board development too much?

EDIT: how would you feel running this into an unknown meta? /EDIT

1. Something Aggro/Tribal heavy and combo-light. IE, a poor man's meta.
2. A very high tier, pro metagame. I wouldn't take this to a GP or a SCG open or anything. Three decks the pros like - Storm Combo, Lands, and Countertop, are all problematic matchups for Kor.
3. If I splashed, it'd be for black - A little discard would go a long way. But no. A nigh untouchable manabase is a huge pro here.
4. I like Hookmaster. I really do. I rank him #7 in a 6-kor slot deck. I just don't think he solves any problems we have. Kor is strong against aggro anyway.
5. Tempo losses kill the deck. Skyfisher's a monster in limited. Not here, though.
6. Me personally? I'd feel good about it due to how much I've been playing it lately. I'm confident taking any deck into an unknown metagame when I know I'm not going to screw up and lose games I should win.


If you can handle ETBtapped lands, what about Rustic Clachan? You could alternately pack that most serious of historical WW cards, Armageddon!

ETBT's kill this deck. I need to hit my land drops. And I actually ran Armageddon before the E-tutor board, and I'd run it and Flagstones if I got rid of the E-tutor board.


Some cards that could fit in this deck (instead of 8 removals):

mana tithe ->>> simply awesome, usually the other player doesn´t expect a WW to run counters and you can counter a cmc 4 or 5 spell during the first game. And later you can move them to the SB, but the other player has to worry about possible counters.

to arms! ->>> it seems so harmless, but in a meta with many creatures allows a lot of combat tricks.

silence / orim chant ->>> almost a time walk for W!!

Maybe "honor of the pure"...

Sorry, can´t find the way to tag cards :frown:

Mana Tithe, Chant, and Silence all got tested, and I came to the same conclusion on all of them. I never left mana open except for occasionally on the first turn, and beyond that they were dead and terrible.

To Arms I just had to look up. While cute, no. I beat creatures anyway. It's other things that kill me. Honor of the Pure is weak here, as I'd rather focus on going broken with my equipment or solving other problems.

EDIT: If anyone's bored and feels like testing this thing against Aggro Loam with and without Vial, let me know the results. Given how much Vial would improve the Countertop matchup, I have half a mind to try a 2-3 in main if it swings Aggro Loam as well.

[Zlatzman]

How much are the equip-costs slowing you down? I see you have tested Bonesplitter, is the aggro it provides that underwhelming compared to the utlility of, say, Basilisk Collar? The only (?) other half-decent cheap-to-equip equipment is Grafted Wargear, as well as Sigil of Distinction which doesn't really fit the deck.

[Tacosnape]

Some. It's why Outfitter is good. Basilisk Collar might get cut, and Bonesplitter might find it's way back in. The reality of it though is that everything pales in comparison to the two Swords and Jitte.

I've thought about Wargear. I'll get around to testing it at some point, given how it makes Duelist swing for 8, but the drawback could suck.

[Aggro_zombies]

I wouldn't drop Collar. In the absence of a lord, it's the only thing standing between you and having your entire team eaten alive by a defending Tarmogoyf. EDIT: Okay, yeah, and 8 Swords too. Let's assume Counterbalance here.

Cute but probably not-very-good thought: the "infinite targeted ability" components of the Life combo are all en-Kor creatures. Is it worth it?

[Citrus-God]

I personally think that a Turn 5 beater with an SoFI/LS is pretty weak sauce. Actually, Board development and dropping creatures is pretty hard to do in general. My suggestion? Run Ancient Tombs. It ramps up mana so you can drop Kors and Equipment. Cut the Collar and 3 Plains for a set of Tombs.

[kicks_422]

But he's got a lot of WW drops. Tombs would go better with the inclusion of Vials so he can Vial in creatures while using the Tombs for the ewuipment.

[Sigar]

I don't see this being any better than Kithkins, at all. They have relevant one drops, an actual lord and knight of meadowgrain. Without an equiped Armament Master the posted deck is very weak. Stoneforger Mystic is cool, but I'd rather just play 4 Jitte if I was forced to play a WW tribe. I understand this is a budget thread, but for the same reason I will still recommend the Kithkins.

21 Plains

4 Goldmeadow Stalwart
4 Figure of Destiny
4 Wizened Cenn
4 Knight of Meadowgrain
4 Spectral Procession

4 Honor of the Pure
3 Ajani Goldmane/Elspeth/Glorious Anthem/Crusade
4 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Path to Exile

SB obviously depends on your meta, O. Ring for CB/Stax, Canonist/Chalice/Chant/Silence for Combo, Relic/Crypt/Trap for Dredge, yada yada ;D

[Forbiddian]

Head to head, each Kithkin is worse than each Kor, so what the hell, man?

Kor are MUCH better than Kithkins, I think if you take yourself back from the situation and look again, you'll see that, too.

[NecroYawgmoth]

...what about Kitesail Apprentice? ...seems to be good with Equipment, and it's a Kor =P

It's a better version of Auriok Glaivemaster IMO, and I liked Glaivemaster in WW-like decks...


YawG

[Draener]

Could snow lands and scrying sheets work here?

[Forbiddian]

Could snow lands and scrying sheets work here?

It's an aggro deck.


@Taco: Hate to go over your head, but this deck really is missing Aether Vial. It gives the deck a much-needed combat trick and explosive punch. I'd run 18 plains, 4 Vial, cutting I guess 1 SoFI, but that's cause I don't like SoFI.

Is there any particular reason why you're not running three or four Vials? They're absolutely broken with Outfitters and SFM and the tempo boost is amazing. I mean, maybe for budget reasons, Aether Vials are getting pretty pricey, but they'll help this deck for sure.


Incidentally, I have a very funny recorded game playing this deck. I'm posting it up on Youtube in a minute.

[Draener]

@Aether Vial: Probably the best card not in the main list. I Never had the draw to support it. It's possible it could find a spot in a Horizon Canopy build though.


Only suggested scrying sheets for this reason.

[Tacosnape]

Aether Vial warrants Horizon Canopy and vice versa. I'm doing a lot more testing with this. Generally I don't run Vial unless there's draw to support it, but with Canopy and the Swords, there might be.

The list I'm currently testing out would be:

17 Plains
3 Horizon Canopy

4 Kor Duelist
4 Armament Master
4 Stoneforger Mystic
4 Kor Firewalker
4 Kor Outfitter
4 Kor Sanctifiers

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Path to Exile
3 Aether Vial

2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow

[Baumeister]

You really should run six pieces of equipment even with the Stoneforge Mystic. Maybe take a page out of Angel Stompy's book and run Mask of Memory. That'd give you enough draw to use Aether Vial with some degree of reliability. And you should just go up to four Vials. They're probably the best turn one play in the deck. Of course, that puts you at about 65 cards. I'd probably trim out some of the Kor Sanctifiers.

[kicks_422]

Angel Stompy successfully ran Mask of Memory because it had evasion creatures such as Soltari Monks and Exalted Angels. The craetures he uses don't have that.

[DuxDucis]

Incidentally, I have a very funny recorded game playing this deck. I'm posting it up on Youtube in a minute.

The video was funny, that should definitely go into the MWS thread :D

I haven't had a chance to set this deck up in MWS but it looks like a fun deck to play.

[Darkenslight]

If you're goin the equipment route, then I'd suggest Auriok Steelshaper as en Equipment-Lord.

Also, I'd add in the Auriok Champion, which is only a 1/.1, but has Pro-R'N'B.

[Guevera59]

The problem that I have with this deck is that it's not really a tribal deck. The one card that grants a tribal bonus, Armament Master, blows. He's a bear that is terrible by himself and only gives a bonus by keeping an equipment alive. I don't see how it's worth it to run bad Kor creatures just to benefit from a terrible lord.

[nodahero]

I certainly agree with Guevera and whoever suggested Kithkin.

Kithkin critters are each better in a head to head against the Kor. The only time I would say otherwise is if you have the Kor "lord" equiped; otherwise Kithkin would run them over.

Allow me a rudementary demonstration, below you will find the Kithkin and Kor armies laid out with their most analgous counterparts side by side and my personal views of the stronger contender.

Goldmeadow Stalwart VS Kor Duelist: on the surface both 1 mana critters. Assuming turn 1, Stalwart wins hands down (statistically). Every turn after the first the Duelist gets a pinch better. The Duelist CAN beat the Stalwart from turn 3 on although this requires a turn of playing equipment and then 2 mana of equip costs (usually).

Wizened Cenn VS Armament Master: Both 2 mana 2/2s. The Cenn can pump any other kithkin in play immediately. The Master requires at least another 2 mana investment to pump his comrades. To see the comparison more clearly consider that the Master needs essentially 4 mana (2 for him and 2 for the equip plus any cost to cast the equipment) for the +2/+2. Essentially It is 2 mana and a card for each +1/+1 the master grants. In a deck built to be aggressive I would wager Cenn wins just through speed although if it goes long the Master will eventually overtake.

Knight of Meadowgrain VS Kor Firewalker: 2 mana 2/2s. Both with some form of a life gain built in. The knight can gain you 2 life a turn from turn 3 on. The Firewalker can gain you anywhere from 0 to possibly 3 (dependent on your opponent casting red spells) a turn from turn 2 on (if you are on the play). The longer the game goes the more the Knight shines due to his steady 2 a turn gain. In combat the Knight will also always win out except against red creatures (a rarity in this format except for Lavamancer and Goblins).

Spectral Procession VS Stone forger Mystic: This is the most abstract comparison. Essentially the way I see this is 3 mana for 3 midgets who can try and go the distance but otherwise stave off roughly 9 damage (3 damage per token). The mystic provides card advantage also although his is more powerful because it allows you to pick your weapon. Each of these cards is hard to study because 1/1s rarely impact a game on there own and Mystic rarely impacts the game by himself because you need an additonal threat lest he die and your euipment sits idol.

Personally, I stand by my assertion that the Kithkin stand about the Kor (in a vacum) or a Kithkin VS Kor battle. The longer the games go though, the more power the Kor deck provides due to the higher power per card they have although it needs more mana.

[Forbiddian]

Unsurprisingly, I completely disagree with everything that Nodahero said.


Kor Duelist is far, FAR better. He's not a piece of shit off the topdeck, he doesn't require you to reveal your gameplan to your opponent (even knowing that more creatures are coming can change how your opponent plays in response to e.g. equipment), and most importantly, he actually has an upside. A 2/2 without any abilities is not going to get there, and hasn't been able to get there for a very long time. There's even a lot of talk of chopping Isamaru in Death and Taxes (not an expert on DnT, but I think that's right) because it's just a piece of shit whenever you don't combo it with Karakous.

In Kors, you're allowed to run 11 equipment with SFM, so you can almost guarantee that you can get an equipment down on the Duelist (or they have to answer the Duelist). Either way, a 2/2 isn't going to get there, but a 1/1 doublestrike with any of the equipment has a ton of upside, especially later on in the game when Stalwart might cost 3W and be terrible, but a doublestriker off the topdeck provides essentially a one-turn clock against any deck.


Wizened Cenn vs. Armament Master: Maybe. Again, Armament Master has a lot more upside. You're not going to get there like make a 2/2 that gives another 2/2 +1/+1. I'm not entirely convinced that Armament Master should be in the deck at all. The strength of White Weenie is that its guys are pretty good on their own, and Armament Master alone is a 2cc bear, but I dunno, maybe Wizened Cenn is better. I'm thinking about cutting them for Ethersworn Canonists and then also playing Mother of Runes. But the bottom line is: Wizened Cenn is THE BEST KITHKIN. Armament Master is probably the worst Kor, and it's the one that I'd recommend be cut (thus removing all ties to tribal from the Kors deck and opening up other options).


Knight of Meadowgrain vs. Kor Firewalker: Not even close, not even by a thousand country miles. You say you're "comparing the cards in a vacuum" which favors Knight of the Meadowgrain completely and makes Kor Firewalker look like a Bear without abilities. "Pro Red" is a very significant ability and you're completely ignoring it (you only mention that it's better against Goblins and Grim Lavamancer, which doesn't even scratch the surface of how important immunity to removal is), and the fact that your opponent can block the KoM so you won't normally cash in on the lifegain doesn't seem to occur to you. You have to pay attention to what "looking at a card in a vacuum" does to the card.

KoM doesn't net you two life a turn if your opponent has ANY creatures on the board. Kor Firewalker is immune to almost all the removal in the most commonly played Aggro deck, and hoses the hell out of like Burn/Goblins (probably singlehandedly turning them from a poor or even matchup to a dominating matchup). KoM is terrible in a real game situation and Kor Firewalker is outstanding in a number of matchups (and functionally about equivalent to KoM in other matchups except Merfolk and Storm where KoM isn't even that great anyway). In most all MUs where life matters, Kor Firewalker is a lot better, like against Zoo. Kor Firewalker you play it, equip a Jitte (or better a SoLS and either way they can't remove it), and you win. KoM is walled out by a Kird Ape, Nacatl, or Tarmogoyf, run over on offense by ever single creature in Zoo, then destroyed by a Grim Lavamancer, having never gained you two life.

Spectral Procession vs. Stoneforge Mystic: Here's where your argument goes from being bad to being dishonest. Spectral Procession is shit. How much shit, you ask? It's so much shit that Kors doesn't run it, even though it could RUN IT JUST AS EASILY AS KITHKINS. This obvious fact doesn't phase you. I'm not sure whether it's worse to be a liar or not to notice that Spectral Procession has no Kithkin synergy. Either way, it's pretty low.

And at any rate, Stoneforge Mystic is the best Kor. It should go head to head against the best Kithkin. Would you rather A) Give a creature (or perhaps two creatures) +1/+1, or B) get an Umezawa's Jitte. Damn, these trivia questions are so hard.


If you really think Kithkins are better, you could make your own Kithkin thread, but this is getting stupid. Stoneforge Mystic is in a league of its own.

[Jon Stewart]

Is the ability to equip Kor and have 1 Tribal Synergy outweigh playing

1) the 'best' WW creatures with Equipment
2) a Soldier Tribal (with or without equipment)
3) Kithkin (with or without equipment)

???
I can't see it being that much cheaper if one of these is actually a better option.

This. First madprops to you for attempting this, but I do wish you picked Kithkin. It is actually fairly nuts in terms of powerlevel and synergy. I would build that before this. Just test a direct port of a Kithkins deck from standard two years ago to try and youll see what I mean. Kithkin decks have a lot more internal synergy (thanks to bombs like Mirror Entity or even that 4cc 5/5 Kithkin First Striking Lord or the 3cc card creature that puts Kithkins into play directly from the top of your library) than this deck does. And by not having to play equipment, the deck can get away with playing 8 creatures all with internal synergy with eather rather than just 6 creatures only 2 of which actually have any internal synergy.

This deck seems overly reliant on eqiupment with no way to ensure they resolve or stay in play. Also other than Stoneforge, every single creature you play is extremely conditional...

Kor Outfitters is pretty much crap. It can occasionally save you two mana to equip something. That's not exactly gamebreaking.

Kor Sanctifiers is pretty much crap. The majority of the time, it's just a 2/3 for 3. It's pretty situational.

Kor Firewalker is largely useless unless your opponent plays red which stands as probably the 4th or 5th least played color in legacy. It's a solid sideboard card, nothing more.

Kor Duelist is crap when it's not equipped and, very easy to block and kill or remove or burn even when it is equipped.

It sounds like you already realize that Armament Master is a lot worse in practice than it looks on paper. It's a good card, but one of the only two decent Kor creatures in the whole deck.

And even Stoneforge Mystic, while decent isn't exactly broken enough to build a whole Kor deck around. Trinket Mage is almost strictly superior (it can fetch lots of decent equipment and bombs like EE and Chalice) and yet, Trinket Mage barely sees any play in a meta filled with tons of creature based blue decks... Bant, Top and Merfolk blue aggro decks that could easily utilize it.

Maybe once Wizards gets around to printing more decent Kor creatures or other Kor lords atleast as good as Armament Master, this deck will be viable. But as it stands, I don't see any reason to play this tribe over Kithkin or Soldiers or maybe just a ton of great white creatures like Serra Avenger with Stoneforge Mystic.

[nodahero]

I have no idea what your problem is Forbiddian... I was not be condescending in the least unlike you. I stated my opionion and each assumption I used. You can only compare cards like this in a vacum due to the variability of any game of magic. You wont always have the equipment. Your opponent may have a Needle. Your opponent may not have any red period such as Countertop decks. Simply put and as I stated, the longer the game goes the better the Kor gets and the worse kithkin becomes.

Perhaps I misunderstood you, although personally it seems like you have an issue which I don't get.

[NecroYawgmoth]

...has anyone tested a bit more with this deck?

What about the Bonesplitter idea for the Duelists?

I'm tinkering around with 3-4 Lightning Greaves for the Arnament Master to make him removal-proof and to have a permanent +2/+2 boost...

anyone else has some new results / testings with the deck?


YawG

[Forbiddian]

I had some success playtesting, and I'm even 1-0 vs. combo (1-2 games). You can see the one game I casted on my youtube.

I think it's pretty good. The problem is that it's only good in the MTGSalvation sense of good.

[NecroYawgmoth]

I know your youtubevids...

I just was thinking: "maybe some people are still interested in improving this deck"

...and I know that it's not THAT good =( , but we can still try to get it to Kor-optimum

[obituary 95]

what do you guys think about Lone Missionary in this type of deck

[bakofried]

I think Firewalker kind of fills that role, but I'm unsure.

[NecroYawgmoth]

Hi

I've tested the deck a bit more... I'm very happy with the main right now, except that I think I am flooded too often with 4 Vials... maybe I do -1SC-Plains +1 Equipment, but I am unsure about it, and it needs more testing...


4 Armament Master
4 Kor Duelist
4 Kor Firewalker
4 Kor Outfitters
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Kor Sanctifiers

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Path to Exile

4 AEther Vial
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Basilisk Collar

17 Snow-Covered Plains
3 Horizon Canopy

I'm really unsure about the Sideboard:

atm it looks like that:

4 Enlightened Tutor
1 Arena of the Ancients
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Pithing Needle
1 Powder Keg
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Tsabo's Web
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon


I've taken Tacos Sideboard... but I kicked the Seal of Cleansing because we are playing Sanctifiers main, and Oblivion Ring does almost the same when there is an Artifact/Enchantment which is really annoying, so I think Seal is not needed...

...furthermore I kicked Limited Resources because I can't see how ths is any good against Lands... If they lead with Manabond ---> lots of lands it screws us more than the lands player, and Tsabos Web is a lot better against Lands as Resources is... I know that Limited Resources is also good against MUC or Landstill, but against these Decks it won't resolve anyways...

The 2 free Slots I filled with Wheel of Sun and Moon & Thorn of Amethyst...

Reasons:

I don't think that Tutor for Chalice or Cannonist is as good as Tutor---> Amethyst ... IMO it's the best 2nd turn against combo for this deck..., and then if you have a 2nd Tutor you'll search the Cannonist... but we can't cut COTV or Cannonist from the Board because of Burn, Elves, and random stuff like that...

Wheel is easy explained...
It helps against all Graveyardbased Decks, and a good Dredge Player can beat you Regardless of Crypt & Relic... Dredge knows how to fight against these 2 cards, and Wheel is a cool suprise for them =P ...also, can you have enough Dredge hate???

Anyways...
I think this deck is weak against Enchantress, so I think I want to play 1 Aura of Silence as a Tutor-target [it also helps against random decks], but I don't really know what to cut in the SB... IMO Pithing Needle looks really weak... What do you guys think about it?


YawG

[NecroYawgmoth]

yeah... sry to doublepost, but the last post is somewhat older...

I played this deck in our local Tournament...

...went 12th out of 20 with 2/3

I played this list, and the main and side was quite good, but I had very stupid MUs...

4 Armament Master
4 Kor Duelist
4 Kor Firewalker
4 Kor Outfitters
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Kor Sanctifiers

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Path to Exile

4 AEther Vial
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Basilisk Collar

15 Snow-Covered Plains
4 Horizon Canopy

/////

4 Enlightened Tutor
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Powder Keg
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Tsabo's Web
1 Aura of Silence
1 Absolute Law
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon


1st game against Zoo 2/0 SoLaS & Law = win
2nd game against Merfolk 2/0 because its easy for Kor
3rd game against Reanimate 0/2 because Iona is a bitch
4th game against Dredge 0/2 because Iona is a bitch
5th game against ANT 0/2 lot first game, because it's unwinable, lost 2nd game due to first turn kill [with 2 Plains, Thorn, Cannonist, Jitte, Tutor in hand -.-]


...anyone still interested to develop the deck???


YawG

[Moczoc]

gz to the wins, maybe you want to add some Karakas to the SB / one MD? to improve the matchup against Iona based decks.
Intrepid Hero could also help.