[Help] Fake Beta Cards

[MasterC]

Hey Sourcers,
I just received a delivery of a beta playset,
and I am a bit concerned about their authenticity.

First of all I must admit that I havent had a closer look on another beta card before.
But they sort of look like the border has been painted black.

The Facts (valid for all 4 cards):
Rather Dark Picture (ok)
No Date (ok)
There are 2 borders visible on the card:
a rather narrow bright border next to the colored border and
a rather broad dark border "framing" the card. (?)
Also, in the two lower corners of all cards, there are small white triangles between the brighter and the darker border of the card??!

Is this normal?

[Bryant Cook]

Nightmare, Zach Tartell, and I had a run in with fake Beta cards awhile back. I went to sell beta Seas to a cardshop and they even thought they were real at first. Turned out it was collectors edition glued to the back of a beta back. Look for a line in the side on the cards. Beta doesn't have this line.

[anonymos]

can you get us a scan/picture? This would help a lot. You could also use the bend test. The 3/3 article on star city about magic financial value explains it when he talks about foils. Its either in that one or the foil article he links. I'd rather let a professional explain how to do it than me.

[Otter]

The Facts (valid for all 4 cards):
Rather Dark Picture (ok)
No Date (ok)
There are 2 borders visible on the card:
a rather narrow bright border next to the colored border and
a rather broad dark border "framing" the card. (?)
Also, in the two lower corners of all cards, there are small white triangles between the brighter and the darker border of the card??!

Is this normal?

This is pretty much how Beta looks, but obviously scans would be nice.

[Tha Gunslinga]

OK, it sounds like you don't know much about Beta cards, so PLEASE DO NOT do the bend test and inadvertently ruin your cards. Post some high-resolution scans and we can go from there.

[MasterC]

Hey Guys, thanks for your help.

I googled around a bit, and found several scans of beta cards that wore the same "white triangles" in the corners that disturbed me.
The cards aren't very valuable, so I don't think anybody made an effort like glueing Collectors Edition Fronts on Beta Backs.

Regards

[Tha Gunslinga]

Which cards are they, that you bought?

[majikal]

Hey Guys, thanks for your help.

I googled around a bit, and found several scans of beta cards that wore the same "white triangles" in the corners that disturbed me.
The cards aren't very valuable, so I don't think anybody made an effort like glueing Collectors Edition Fronts on Beta Backs.

Regards
MasterC - those white spots are completely normal for Alpha and Beta.

http://cdn1.ioffer.com/img/item/985/674/13/o_K24kiuQ5iGoJeGW.jpg
As you can see, there are two borders on this card. A slightly lighter, inner black border, and the one on the outer edge of the card. The white spots are the space between the rounded corners of the inner border and the sharp edges of the inside of the outer border.

[nicolasbol]

I confirm that the white triangles are normal, I have plenty of betas, from higly priced to 0.1$ and they all have this.

Regarding the double border, some played card have it, nothing alarming IMHO.

If you suspect a reback, try to perform a bend test or an UV light test.

[majikal]

Regarding the double border, some played card have it, nothing alarming IMHO.

If you suspect a reback, try to perform a bend test or an UV light test.
Nothing to do with whether the card is played or not. It's just the way they're printed. The inner border is comprised of dots like everything else on the face of the card, while the outer border is solid black.

[MMogg]

http://cdn1.ioffer.com/img/item/985/674/13/o_K24kiuQ5iGoJeGW.jpg


This looks shopped. I can tell from some of the pixels and from seeing quite a few shops in my time.

Sorry, couldn't resist. :tongue:

[FoulQ]

@ MMogg, you know what would be funny, if Majikal was the guy who sold the cards to MasterC and is BLUFFING US ALL

[Malchar]

I'll the beta cards I've ever heard of have the white triangles and double border. They just naturally happen to look rather fake by today's standards. That's just how Wizards made them back then.

[Aleksandr]

Last time I checked my Pink Hole, the triangle was there, too.

Seems the stuff is fine and Beta.

[Some Guy]

I'll the beta cards I've ever heard of have the white triangles and double border. They just naturally happen to look rather fake by today's standards. That's just how Wizards made them back then.

not volcanic islands , they do not have those


Last time I checked my Pink Hole, the triangle was there, too.

¿ you have a pink triangle ?


:eek:

[Pastorofmuppets]

Last time I checked my Pink Hole, the triangle was there, too.

Seems the stuff is fine and Beta.

you know, the letter "P" is nowhere near "S." What are you smoking?

[majikal]

you know, the letter "P" is nowhere near "S." What are you smoking?
http://sales.starcitygames.com/cardscans/MAGBET/sinkhole.jpg
It's pink. Well, purple-pink.

[heroicraptor]

That black boarder is obviously shooped on.

[majikal]

That black boarder is obviously shooped on.
It's from Star City Games.

[Kangaxx]

MasterC - those white spots are completely normal for Alpha and Beta.

http://cdn1.ioffer.com/img/item/985/674/13/o_K24kiuQ5iGoJeGW.jpg
As you can see, there are two borders on this card. A slightly lighter, inner black border, and the one on the outer edge of the card. The white spots are the space between the rounded corners of the inner border and the sharp edges of the inside of the outer border.

This is exactly right. Anyone with the privilege of previously owning Beta/Alpha realize the white streaks are perfectly normal. I'd actually be more concerned if the white streaks weren't present.

Someone isn't going to make a fake Beta card unless it is totally obvious, like thicker card stocks, colored in borders, etc. Collectable crooks haven't caught on to Magic yet and see no interest in the game, even though the technology is avalaible. MTG hasn't gotten to the point of a 1986 Fleer Jordan rookie card being the holy grail of cardboard...... yet.

[dahcmai]

I wouldn't say that, I have seen some ungodly good fakes. I saw one that would pass a bend test, light tests, looked fine under a loupe, and even had the distinctive blue glue in between. It was practically flawless and I saw where it had been made. I doubt you could really catch one to be honest. The ones I saw were made by a guy who made his own proxies and had some expensive printing equipment. They were nothing short of amazing. Seems to be all about that glue and paper quality. Makes me wonder how many other people figured out the combination required.

[death]

I was very happy then sad when I got this in the mail today
http://imageshack.us/a/img211/5129/929201244927pm.jpg

Water test = failed
Light test = failed
Blacklight = failed

This is not a rebacked card but a high quality fake card. Looks like it's been played for years until someone (me) discovered that it's a fake. Why am I posting this shit? To give warning to the public that fake beta dual lands like this do exist.

[lochlan]

Why am I posting this shit? To give warning to the public that fake beta dual lands like this do exist.

Sorry to hear you were scammed (probably unknowingly). I think that it's already known, however, that high quality beta fakes exist. Unfortunately, even fake Unlimited duals of this quality exist, there is a market out there and producing this stuff is very cheap. But I still haven't seen anybody who can duplicate the exact printing process used on the original cards.

Can you post some high-resolution scans? I would be interested to see the print quality.

I have never seen any fakes that have the same "circle" printing that real A/B/U cards have. (I forget what it's called--"dot" printing or something?) IMO all you need to "test" these cards is a jewler's loupe or another magnifying device to see the printing--whether or not it has the circles. Personally I can tell with the naked eye although I like to look at cards magnified just to be sure.

[death]

Not sure if the printing processes were the same but it appears that the card also has those small dots. In this case, the water test (ink comes off easily) and the light and blacklight tests (card more translucent; the pigments were luminous in blacklight) confirmed that both the ink and cardboard used to fabricate this were of different quality compared to the materials used to produce an authentic Beta Magic card.

[ColeM]

Sorry to hear you were scammed (probably unknowingly). I think that it's already known, however, that high quality beta fakes exist. Unfortunately, even fake Unlimited duals of this quality exist, there is a market out there and producing this stuff is very cheap. But I still haven't seen anybody who can duplicate the exact printing process used on the original cards.

Can you post some high-resolution scans? I would be interested to see the print quality.

I have never seen any fakes that have the same "circle" printing that real A/B/U cards have. (I forget what it's called--"dot" printing or something?) IMO all you need to "test" these cards is a jewler's loupe or another magnifying device to see the printing--whether or not it has the circles. Personally I can tell with the naked eye although I like to look at cards magnified just to be sure.

The 'circle' pattern is the rosette pattern of a CMYK offset press. This pattern can sometimes look very similar to what a digital/laser device produces, although from what I've seen there is usually more inconsistency in the pattern with digital printers. It may be possible to mimic the rosette pattern with an ink-based printer, but I suspect there would still be inconsistency.

A high-resolution scan would be nice, but I can easily tell that whatever printed that dual was a very quality device. Thankfully the forger has not yet duplicated the other defining features of the cards.

[sdematt]

That was the one off Ebay right? It was pretty fake from the get-go, and his feedback warned that he sold fake cards before. Why did you bid, if this is the same one?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/magic-card-MTG-BETA-VOLCANIC-ISLAND-Excellent-condition-dual-land-VERY-RARE-/200812835113?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2ec160b129&nma=true&si=osSbZiekYoOLvFrw0te7O8qUmhQ%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

Fake cards suck. Refund the rest of my money.
Member id bahr0000000000000000000000000000000000000dstar ( Feedback Score Of 3532Red star icon for feedback score in between 1,000 to 4,999)
Apr-02-06 12:36
-- (#8760884395) --

Good seller, cards mint. Library of Alexandria was just a low quality copy.



Look, even Ben Carp posted and said the cards before were fake. Blurry pics for Beta duals means you don't fucking bid.

-Matt

[door]

I thought every beta card should have those white triangle dots on the bottom of the border. What do you guys think of this one (http://www.ebay.com/itm/mtg-beta-volcanic-island-artist-autographed-mint-/300787189844?pt=Trading_Card_Games_US&hash=item4608504854)?

[Lemnear]

I was very happy then sad when I got this in the mail today
http://imageshack.us/a/img211/5129/929201244927pm.jpg

Water test = failed
Light test = failed
Blacklight = failed

This is not a rebacked card but a high quality fake card. Looks like it's been played for years until someone (me) discovered that it's a fake. Why am I posting this shit? To give warning to the public that fake beta dual lands like this do exist.

Beta did have other coloring. Imo easy to tell off the red and the Land-border-color. Sux non the less

[death]

I thought every beta card should have those white triangle dots on the bottom of the border. What do you guys think of this one (http://www.ebay.com/itm/mtg-beta-volcanic-island-artist-autographed-mint-/300787189844?pt=Trading_Card_Games_US&hash=item4608504854)?

Yes, Beta (the only edition where the card exists in English blackborder) Volcanic Islands are the exception.

[nedleeds]

Philosophy question:

If it's good enough to be played for years; and pass constant inspection with no problem is it still a fake?

[Koby]

Philosophy question:

If it's good enough to be played for years; and pass constant inspection with no problem is it still a fake?

Yes.

[sdematt]

Yes, a fake is a fake. If I discovered my Monet was a forgery, I wouldn't shrug it off.

-Matt

[nedleeds]

Yes, a fake is a fake. If I discovered my Monet was a forgery, I wouldn't shrug it off.

-Matt

Agreed, but you can't tap a Monet and add blue or red mana. In other words a Monet has no utility ... if this Volcanic has all the utility and looks as good as a beta is it really that much less valuable? I suppose for the collector; very much so. For a person wanting to sleeve it up; not much (though obviously they didn't get what they paid for).

[sdematt]

I mean, using a Sharpie on a basic land and writing "UR - Volc" has the same utility to a player as a fake card does as well. Both can't be used in a tournament setting, albeit one more easily than the other, but both do the same job.

-Matt

[nedleeds]

Agreed. But lets be realistic ... if you need a water test, light test and a spectrometer to spot the fake it's as good as real for DCI purposes. It would still get the same wow / pimp factor on the table as a beta dual.

What would somebody pay for these things knowing they are fake, but real enough that it wouldn't matter in a tourney?

Magic cards are a unique collectible (compared to baseball cards or comics or paintings) in that they are both cool to look at and show off and they are actually used in a competitive game. I can't tap my Cal Ripken rookie. Well I can but it doesn't make orange mana.

I mean ... at vintage worlds I wasn't de-sleeving my opponents to bend test their beta Tropicals, nor were they de-sleeving me to jewelers loupe my scrublands and savannahs.

[door]

It's a matter of your own choice, I guess. If you are comfort with the fact, that you play with fake cards and pretend to be a "pimp guy", than do it. But what if someone unmasks you? That will be a god damn shame, enough for not playing competitive magic ever after. A Bertoncini effect :wink:
Also the fact that you paid the price of a real beta card doesn't help. It is still fake. :frown:
I don't know what to do in such a situation. It sucks.

[nedleeds]

I wouldn't do it; but I happen to have decent enough cards to play with from having discretionary income and having had played since 1994 ... However being on the receiving end of a large investment into a bunch of super high end fakes ... good enough to pass any test to be performed at an event might make me feel differently.

In the late 90s there was a big (for Usenet at the time) load of high end fakes a guy from California (who was a decent size usenet seller of the era) sold on usenet. He claims he was faked out, and I think issued a ton of refunds. I believe he also said these were printed on presses, not just ink jets.

I don't think (who knows though) that I've had a fake pass through me since then.

[sdematt]

I remember that those were professionally printed and everything, and even some were PSA graded iirc.

I mean, if it doesn't bother you and they look "real enough," then it doesn't really matter. I wouldn't suggest knowingly bringing fake cads to a tournament, though, but if you did, there's nothing I could do.

-Matt

[joemauer]

If anyone was able to create fake magic cards that are realistic enough to use in tourneys then that could cause a crash of the secondary card market.
Right?

[lordofthepit]

Philosophy question:

If it's good enough to be played for years; and pass constant inspection with no problem is it still a fake?

Yes, it's still a fake.

[Sloshthedark]

well question is - is profitable enough to print them yet?

I mean serious attempt, maybe some family press company or so, it's not like printing money (well in fact is), cards have nearly to none protection so I would assume identical visual copy can be made +/- easily in time by industry professional, good enough you won't tell fake aside paper composition...
I believe market is not going to crash due to relatively small market and distribution problems... obviously you can't print A/B in a massive scale, so imagine - most likely you have x0 000 mint wb duals, how'd you sell them and not be suspicious? and is it profitable to print/sell new "money cards"? maybe in small runs, likely... btw. are new cards better protected (some kind of pattern somewhere to be distinguished by manufacturer/why not? - ok I read sci-fi too much)

and likely some chinese guys do this already... I always wondered how comes there are so many nice A/B duals at a GP ;)

[DLifshitz]

well question is - is profitable enough to print them yet?

Someone's doing it already, apparently, and there's little reason to do it except to make money. So, yeah.

One day WotC will get paranoid enough to put some unobtrusive copy protection on their cards, like a hologram.

[nedleeds]

If anyone was able to create fake magic cards that are realistic enough to use in tourneys then that could cause a crash of the secondary card market.
Right?

If they could pass 2 or 3 of the standard tests then maybe. But distributing them would be a mother fucker. You'd have to charge real prices, maybe try to pawn them off one at a time to smaller dealers and individuals. It's not like making crystal meth where you can just sell it to a wholesaler like Gus Fring.

[sdematt]

IIRC the Italian Mafia (in Italy) was doing counterfeit Beta stuff back in the 1990's from what I heard, since it was literally easier and more profitable than cash. Whether this was true or just some story, who knows, but I wouldn't be surprised.

None of the fakes have been good enough. They've been good, but if you know your stuff, it's easy to spot a fake.

-Matt

[death]

I was very happy then sad when I got this in the mail today
http://imageshack.us/a/img211/5129/929201244927pm.jpg

Water test = failed
Light test = failed
Blacklight = failed

So yeah the price of Beta Volcanic Island has tripled since I posted this. I've had 2 Volcs, seller agreed to refund this fake and I also sold the real one. I stopped buying Beta (after completing a playset of Bayous) and went with German black-bordered Volcs instead to match my Underground Seas. Their prices have also doubled now. Since I play Sultai (BUG) and Grixis (BUR), I think I'm settled.

[Barook]

If they could pass 2 or 3 of the standard tests then maybe. But distributing them would be a mother fucker. You'd have to charge real prices, maybe try to pawn them off one at a time to smaller dealers and individuals. It's not like making crystal meth where you can just sell it to a wholesaler like Gus Fring.
Distributing Legacy staples like Duals would probably be easier due to higher demand.

[Sloshthedark]

@Zilla - ok, Death necroed the thread of a fake card that failed all tests, I do not mean to promote or encourage anyone to buy the cards I linked (yet I obviously did as those are sold now), just want to find out if the time has really come when one cannot tell the difference using common test as all the previous fakes were more or less easy to distinguish in person or it is just bragging of the seller to better sell his "proxies"

[nedleeds]

Distributing Legacy staples like Duals would probably be easier due to higher demand.

Animate Dead targeting this thread resolves. Yeah I agree with you, the sweet spot is in the hundreds or a little lower. Revised Savannah at a dealers booth at Gencon will rarely get the jewelers loupe or the bend test out. But a great condition beta Sapphire will every time.

An anonymous buddy got a batch of the latest from China; it was a set of unlimited power and a beta lotus. I'll be interested to touch them and compare to my beta lotus.