[SCD] Goblin Recruiter

[Nessaja]

I actually did a search and didn't see this subject popping up. I'm wondering about this card for reference:


Goblin Recruiter 1R
Spelltype: Creature
Subtype: Goblin
When Goblin Recruiter enters the battlefield, search your library for any number of Goblin cards and reveal those cards. Shuffle your library, then put them on top of it in any order.
So yeah, amazing card lets put that first.

But is it really banworthy? It would allow Goblins to be a combo deck (charbelcher?) but that doesn't seem that beneficial, and it strays away from the overall gameplan quite a bit.
It would be pretty insane with with Food Chain as well, but again, this takes quite a few slots and I think that the Food Chain plan is already pretty fail safe.
Then lastly it would just make sure that Goblins would only have good topdecks for the rest of the game and allow you to chain Ringleaders together, but one could seriously make an argument for that being a winmore situation. Usually Goblins are pretty capable of winning when in that situation.

Even taking all that account, I'm not so sure if I would want to play this as a 4 off at all, surely as a 1-off for tutor lategame but it's a very midgame oriented card while you usually want to play the tempo game with Goblins.

So anyway, why am I asking this; I'm really wondering if this card might be unbanned anytime soon and I haven't seen this card discussed much. If it does get unbanned I can see it jumping up in price quite a bit and in that scenario I shouldn't trade mine away.

EDIT Wrong board... got too many screens open. Mod move please?

[Bigface]

Food Chain is still legal in Legacy.

Also, Goblin is strong enough without a turn 2 draw-fixer which gives you any answer you could possibly need to any possible threath/play of your opponents.

[Kangaxx]

Food Chain is still legal in Legacy.

Also, Goblin is strong enough without a turn 2 draw-fixer which gives you any answer you could possibly need to any possible threath/play of your opponents.

I don't get the point of this post. That should make it even less banworthy.

[IsThisACatInAHat?]

I don't get the point of this post. That should make it even less banworthy.
Then you don't understand why Recruiter was banned in the first place. Food chain+ recruiter (and ringleader) fix your draws so you can basically play half your deck out by turn 2 or 3. The way recruiter specifically works, you can also tutor up every answer your deck has to a given threat. The effect unbanning Recruiter would have on Goblins is similar to the effect unbanning Mind's Desire would have on NLS/ NLU.

[Nessaja]

But can't a Food Chain deck already combo out turn 3 if they wanted to? Seems like having Food Chain seems like you'll have high chances already.

I mean, you're talking about a two card combo here, I'm can name quite a few 2 card combos that will win you the game.

[Kangaxx]

Then you don't understand why Recruiter was banned in the first place. Food chain+ recruiter (and ringleader) fix your draws so you can basically play half your deck out by turn 2 or 3. The way recruiter specifically works, you can also tutor up every answer your deck has to a given threat. The effect unbanning Recruiter would have on Goblins is similar to the effect unbanning Mind's Desire would have on NLS/ NLU.

I realize how powerful the card is. You're just not getting the simple fact that I was actually retorting in response to Bigface's comment.

[ddt15]

If it were legal, it would maybe see play as a one of. I doubt anyone would play Food Chain over Vial. Maybe it would improve the Zoo matchup abit by being able to combo win out of the sideboard but it requires alot of adaptation. Unban plx.

[Forbiddian]

Combo Goblins doesn't exist today, so it's hard to describe it to someone who seems adamant that Recruiter wouldn't be a problem. I kinda feel like I'm explaining how Ad Nauseum Tendrils works to someone who'd never seen a Storm Combo deck before.

Put it this way: Even without the Food Chain they can stack their deck in insane ways, shuffle the deck if the combo fails at no cost, or even play spells to break up the opponent's answers, or just to fetch a specific set of Goblins they know will destroy your deck. How many decks could survive a Ringleader into 4 handpicked Goblins? That ability alone isn't very broken (you'd need a way to get the Ringleader to resolve or you're screwed), but the fact is that it's an unbelievably strong combo-enabler (guaranteeing a turn 2-3 kill) that also is extremely powerful outside of the combo.

It'd be like if Exhume said, "OR counter target spell"

Also keep in mind that Vexing Shusher is a Goblin and not hard to add to the chain. Stick it on top, draw it next turn to cast the Food Chain around Force/Daze, then combo out.

[syssc9]

I hope I'm not being too pedantic here, but the original combo, as I only vaguley remember, required a bunch of fast mana in hand, cast Recruiter to stack the deck and Ringleader to draw the 4 pre-stacked goblins. Then cast Shrieking Mogg to tap all the opponents creatures and attaced with Chieftan and multiple Pile Drivers for lethal. Or something like that. This is way contrived, and required aggresive mulliganing (<--- is that a word?) to achieve, but killed on turn 3 or 4 when it could actually be pulled off and was deemed to fast for the environment back then. Today might prove different. Is there a better way I am missing?

[troopatroop]

Combo Goblins doesn't exist today, so it's hard to describe it to someone who seems adamant that Recruiter wouldn't be a problem. I kinda feel like I'm explaining how Ad Nauseum Tendrils works to someone who'd never seen a Storm Combo deck before.

Put it this way: Even without the Food Chain they can stack their deck in insane ways, shuffle the deck if the combo fails at no cost, or even play spells to break up the opponent's answers, or just to fetch a specific set of Goblins they know will destroy your deck. How many decks could survive a Ringleader into 4 handpicked Goblins? That ability alone isn't very broken (you'd need a way to get the Ringleader to resolve or you're screwed), but the fact is that it's an unbelievably strong combo-enabler (guaranteeing a turn 2-3 kill) that also is extremely powerful outside of the combo.

It'd be like if Exhume said, "OR counter target spell"

Also keep in mind that Vexing Shusher is a Goblin and not hard to add to the chain. Stick it on top, draw it next turn to cast the Food Chain around Force/Daze, then combo out.

+1. Food Chain Goblins would be a Tier 1 Deck in Legacy, and only make the Goblin deck even stronger. It should stay banned.

[Anusien]

It's worth noting that Vintage Goblins basically said, "Whoops, Food Chain is too slow" and just started playing pure beatdown.

But we probably don't want a Goblins deck that can race ANT.

[jrsthethird]

Someone could just proxy up a Food Chain Goblins deck and test it against the top decks in the format (Pro-Bant, Survival, regular Goblins, Zoo, Merfolk, ANT, Reanimator, and maybe a couple more). Write up your findings.

It's possible that this might be something that R&D is testing for the upcoming announcement.

[Zilla]

I hope I'm not being too pedantic here, but the original combo, as I only vaguley remember, required a bunch of fast mana in hand, cast Recruiter to stack the deck and Ringleader to draw the 4 pre-stacked goblins.
No. You spend the first turn or two playing small Goblins. Then you play Food Chain, and sac those Goblins into mana for Recruiter. At that point, you stack not just 4 cards, but 16 cards. the stack goes: Ringleader, 3 Goblins, Ringleader, 3 Goblins, Ringleader, 3 Goblins. You just chain one Ringleader into the next. Amongst those Goblins you have Warchief so they're all hasted and reduced in cost. Then you can either just alpha strike with your dudes, or sac them one at a time and repeatedly ping them to death with one or more Goblin Sharpshooters. Or both.

As Forbiddian mentioned, Recruiter also allowed for finding answers to specific problems (Incinerator for problematic creatures, Tinkerer for artifacts, etc.) Further, because the only non-mana non-Food Chain cards in the deck were Goblins, the deck functioned very similarly to Vial Goblins even when it couldn't combo out.

If Recruiter were unbanned, it would make for a combo deck slower and more open to disruption than ANT or Reanimator, but with an extremely reliable fallback plan. Food Chain Goblins is at least as strong as Vial Goblins. Honestly I think this metagame could handle an unbanned Recruiter, but it would be foolish to suggest that its unbanning would be completely without risk.

[syssc9]

I knew there had to be more to it than I remembered. Perhaps what I described was an extended level ploy around Onslaught time? Thanks for the full and lucid description, Zilla. Makes me want to go out and find some Food Chain - I already have Recruiters! Probably work good even against many opponents at the multiplayer table!

[Anusien]

http://www.themanadrain.com/primers/fcg.htm
Old Vintage FCG primer.

[SpikeyMikey]

I am vehemently opposed to recruiter coming off the banned list. There was no need for contrived Shrieking Mogg crap, they beat with a dozen goblins and just used Sharpshooter or SGC to burn you out if you managed to survive that somehow. I'm sure a lot of us here remember the deck before the split. It was competitive with Worldgorger Dragon. It would be competitive with ANT now. Yes, the power level of the format has come up since then, but Goblins is still a strong deck and people would absolutely play FCG. Your assumption that it requires god hands to go off turn 3-4 consistently (without mana accel) is incorrect.

Furthermore, what this format needs is *less* deck type X with combo thrown in decks, not more. Thresh with Prog, Survival with Iona, Dreadstill, etc. I'm currently toying around with Bant Survival with both Iona and a Painter's combo. I don't want to see a point at which real live actual aggro decks can't compete in 1.5. That's what drove me out of T1 when Mirrodin came out.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

First of all, I think it's funny that so many people seem to think this is an [SCD] for Food Chain....

Anyhow, I think the unbanning of this one card would completely shake up the meta-game. I firmly believe Combo-Gobs would be one of the top two or three decks in the field, because the ability to turn regular Goblins into a combo deck by including 8 additional cards (4 Recruiter, 4 Food Chain) would just be too strong. Gobs is already a pretty strong aggro deck, and Recruiter really is a fantastic card even outside of the combo, so that basically means the only "combo" cards you'd actually have to work in would be the 4 Food Chain. And so you would basically have an already-strong aggro deck with an incredibly easy to pull off "oops I win" button. I don't think Recruiter is anywhere near "safe to unban" status.

[Zilla]

I'm sure a lot of us here remember the deck before the split. It was competitive with Worldgorger Dragon.
This is a little bit misleading. Fully powered Worldgorger Dragon was almost certainly the strongest deck in 1.5, but so few people owned Bazaars that you would face it only very rarely at a tournament. Toe to toe, Dragon walked all over FCG. Its best bet was to side in 4 Crypts, mull into them aggressively, and pray the Dragon player couldn't go off turn 1. FCG was extremely strong, but the only reason it was viable in the face of powered Dragon was because Dragon was played so infrequently due to card rarity.

I don't think an unbanned Recruiter would wreck the current metagame, but it would definitely make an impact.

[rufus]

No. You spend the first turn or two playing small Goblins. Then you play Food Chain, and sac those Goblins into mana for Recruiter. At that point, you stack not just 4 cards, but 16 cards. the stack goes: Ringleader, 3 Goblins, Ringleader, 3 Goblins, Ringleader, 3 Goblins. You just chain one Ringleader into the next. Amongst those Goblins you have Warchief so they're all hasted and reduced in cost. Then you can either just alpha strike with your dudes, or sac them one at a time and repeatedly ping them to death with one or more Goblin Sharpshooters. Or both.


Today, if Food Chain is in play, you can combo out with:
Ringleader -> Mogg War Marshal, Mogg War Marshal, Lightning Crafter, Kiki-Jiki

Without Food Chain, you want to be able to do something like:
Ringleader -> Skirk Prospector, Goblin Warchief, Mogg War Marshal/Lackey, Ringleader -> Mogg War Marshal, Mogg War Marshal, Lightning Crafter, Kiki-Jiki

There's also the recent addition of Warren Instigator.

[arebennian]

If Recruiter were unbanned, it would make for a combo deck slower and more open to disruption than ANT or Reanimator, but with an extremely reliable fallback plan. Food Chain Goblins is at least as strong as Vial Goblins. Honestly I think this metagame could handle an unbanned Recruiter, but it would be foolish to suggest that its unbanning would be completely without risk.

Sounds like Glimpse Elves and they are not setting the world on fire.*
Unban and see what happens for 3-6months.



*I realise that they are not as strong but the deck has a number of parallels.

[bakofried]

Why not just ban Food Chain and unban Recruiter? It's not like Goblins would play the sucker on turn 2; it's a pretty mana-hungry deck, and slogging through 16 or so goblins wouldn't exactly be beneficial. It would, however, be there as a one or two of, to get Gobs a ridiculous mid to late game plan.

[jrsthethird]

Why not just ban Food Chain and unban Recruiter? It's not like Goblins would play the sucker on turn 2; it's a pretty mana-hungry deck, and slogging through 16 or so goblins wouldn't exactly be beneficial. It would, however, be there as a one or two of, to get Gobs a ridiculous mid to late game plan.

I think the problem is the deck stacking itself; you can still chain together Ringleaders without Food Chain and get insane card advantage, something that only a resolved Progenitus, Iona, or Humility can deal with. I can't think of anything else in Legacy that can keep up with that much power (not to mention that in a Recruiter build you can run champion creatures and a sac outlet like Prospector to be able to use more than 4 Ringleaders). Even if you don't chain together Ringleaders he gives you the guarantee to always draw a business spell, practically giving you inevitability in (practically) every matchup.

So I guess after looking at it that way I don't think he would be healthy for the format.

[bakofried]

Hmm...
I guess, but it doesn't guarantee a win if it resolves, it just give you quite a bit of CA. Feh.

[ddt15]

They are both legal in type 1, and noone plays it there. People that play normal goblins in t1 dont even play recruiter without FC in their deck. It used to be good in type 1.5 when everyone was playing retarded decks (as in: before the power creep). You can't search for the combo and on top of that if the recruiter or chain gets countered you are screwed. In short; its crap, maybe slightly less crap than glimpse elves, but crap nonetheless. Vial is ten times better.

[Zilla]

In short; its crap, maybe slightly less crap than glimpse elves, but crap nonetheless. Vial is ten times better.
You can search for half the combo with Matron. It's an exceedingly consistent deck. Putting together the combo by turn four is extremely common, and even if you don't, you can just play it aggro like Vial Goblins. It's definitely not crap, and it's certainly on par with Vial Goblins in terms of power. It's weaker against control because it's trading Vials for Food Chains, but it gets an improved game against combo and other aggressive decks because of an ability to "just win" very early on in the game. To suggest that the deck is strictly inferior to Vial Goblins is to miss the mark by a very wide margin.

[Forbiddian]

I think in the metagame, it still might be a good idea to run Vials, since Vial + Recruiter is a combo by itself. With recruiter in the deck, you can also run a lower goblin count and still get good use out of Ringleaders.

@people comparing it to Vintage: That's just a stupid comparison. In Vintage, it's just a combo deck -- Goblin beatdown won't get there very often (vanilla goblins hasn't had a top 8 since June 2009 on DC). In Legacy, Goblin Beatdown is a legitimate tier 2 strategy.

It doesn't surprise me that in Vintage, people sacrifice the beatdown plan for Goblins. In Legacy, both are pretty viable (compare Food Chain to Survival of the Fittest -- both cost a similar amount, both have legitimate decks without the combo, and both can go nuts when they resolve the right element).

[rufus]

Why not just ban Food Chain and unban Recruiter?

It's quite doable without food chain - though I'm not sure where the aggro/combo balance ends up being.

Turn 1: Lackey / Fast mana + Instigator.
Turn 2: Matron / Ringleader -> Recruiter or just Recruiter...
Turn 3: Ringleader -> Prospector, Warchief, War Marshal, Ringleader -> War Marshal, War Marshal, Lightning Crafter, Kiki-Jiki

Turn 1: Vial
Turn 2: Instigator/Recruiter...
Turn 3: Recruiter (off Vial) , draw Ringleader & play off Lackey/Instigator -> ...