[Rise of the Eldrazi] Set Discussion Thread [Archive] - Page 2

FoolofaTook

03-29-2010, 10:31 AM

Well the ultimate is a little silly if you ask me. 90% of the time I see him used purely for card draw. And non-blue card draw is always nice.

He takes 5 mana to land and then the best way to abuse him is to use SDT to draw land out of your deck. If you have the 5 mana to land him you don't need the land. Come to think of it he might be kind of cool in a 43 Lands build though. They get to 5 mana whenever they want and then he draws an extra card a turn for them.

Sims

03-29-2010, 10:31 AM

Well the ultimate is a little silly if you ask me. 90% of the time I see him used purely for card draw. And non-blue card draw is always nice.

And even in Standard, you'd get maybe 2 draws out of him, tops. Between bolt in the format and the fact that his Bob flip hurts him, not you, it's game over if you play Sarkhan, activate his 0 and flip over Bloodbraid elf (assuming jund for a minute)... suddenly your Sarkhan is dead to a bolt. You only traded your Sarkhan for 1 card. That seems bad.

Infinitium

03-29-2010, 11:21 AM

The only use I see for All Is Dust would be a one or two-of in mono brown as a win condition. The problem is that it's quite rare that it will be much better than a wrath of god. Perhaps it's biggest advantage is that the mana cost allows it to fit into mono brown where wrath of god wouldn't have.

Then again MUD can afford to play 4x Eldrazi Temple and most likely an Eye of Ugin, giving it virtually 13 double lands with which to land (17 with Crystal Vein, but that is terribad so let's not dwell there). And that's not counting the extra mana such a deck could afford (whether that be Thran Dynamo or Metalworker or w/e). Being an out to enchantments, creature hordes, planeswalkers et al without hurting your own board development (a la Neverriyar's disc) patches up a lot of weaknesses such decks have traditionally had.

jrsthethird

03-29-2010, 11:32 AM

And even in Standard, you'd get maybe 2 draws out of him, tops. Between bolt in the format and the fact that his Bob flip hurts him, not you, it's game over if you play Sarkhan, activate his 0 and flip over Bloodbraid elf (assuming jund for a minute)... suddenly your Sarkhan is dead to a bolt. You only traded your Sarkhan for 1 card. That seems bad.

Depends. This is assuming your opponent is holding a Bolt, and you didn't play some dudes (BBE, Nighthawk, Gatekeeper, Geopede, whatever) that he would have spent the Bolt to kill.

You don't drop him turn 5. You drop him when your hand is empty and you need to reload. If you aren't ahead at this point, with a BR deck, you should be at least even and playing in topdeck mode. He will win you games when you're both playing off the top of your deck. Kind of like drawing a Sign in Blood in that situation, but with more lasting potential.

He's not great, but he's not terrible either. I like the idea of starting at high loyalty and then withering to nothing though.

Wrath_Of_Houlding

03-29-2010, 11:41 AM

He's not great, but he's not terrible either. I like the idea of starting at high loyalty and then withering to nothing though.

Yeah...I don't think it'll be a particularly competitive card...but the flavor is fantastic.

Rizso

03-29-2010, 12:00 PM

I think the new sarkhan is interesting in the standard format. Turning Ball lightning creatures and bloodghasts into 5/5 fliers after combat. He seem to be perfect for the Bazaar trader deck, with the threaten effects and able to kill your own Abyssal persecutor.

But imo his mana cost is 1 to many. He stiill looks really useful.

paK0

03-29-2010, 12:07 PM

Yeah...I don't think it'll be a particularly competitive card...but the flavor is fantastic.

Why make you opponent kill your shit if you can do it yourself?

jrsthethird

03-29-2010, 12:37 PM

I think the new sarkhan is interesting in the standard format. Turning Ball lightning creatures and bloodghasts into 5/5 fliers after combat. He seem to be perfect for the Bazaar trader deck, with the threaten effects and able to kill your own Abyssal persecutor.

Too bad you can run him along with old Sarkhan for maximum Threatening.

Bardo

03-29-2010, 01:08 PM

You realize that Bob himself is "on a stick," right?

Yeah, I didn't explain that well. I meant Bob as a non-creature. Planeswalkers are generally more durable than duders in a control deck.

I'm not saying the card is "good," or even playable, just that it's not strictly terrible and deserving of no more discussion other than pure derision.

Aesthetically, I love the design.

BreathWeapon

03-29-2010, 04:02 PM

Then again MUD can afford to play 4x Eldrazi Temple and most likely an Eye of Ugin, giving it virtually 13 double lands with which to land (17 with Crystal Vein, but that is terribad so let's not dwell there). And that's not counting the extra mana such a deck could afford (whether that be Thran Dynamo or Metalworker or w/e). Being an out to enchantments, creature hordes, planeswalkers et al without hurting your own board development (a la Neverriyar's disc) patches up a lot of weaknesses such decks have traditionally had.

All is Dust is really damn strong in a Wildfire esq. decks, or you could build mono-Brown midrange with Metal Worker to power it out - regardless I think it's the most promising card to be spoiled and if Grim Monolith ever gets unbanned I am so dropping Eldrazi on some poor unsuspecting bastard on MWS.

Parcher

03-29-2010, 05:25 PM

Not saying it would be any good, but X Lands could easily power out, and benefit from All is Dust....

Malchar

03-29-2010, 06:16 PM

Well, also the fact that in MUD or something like that, it kills all your opponent's shit while leaving yours alive...

For nearly double the cost, I don't know if it's really worth it. I don't see mud having a ton of creatures in play. I guess it depends on the deck. The mana cost is what really makes it great, though.

Lothian

03-29-2010, 07:02 PM

Jayzus..

That's the Rise of the Dogs.

The new planeswalker compared with new jace huh. 0 to get a card and kill himself with no + ability, compared with free brainstorm. :O

Tons of eldrazi all the same from 10 to 15 mana cost. And people think they'll play with 2 temples and Ugin all day long...

And the level-up.. Looks like as good as Kamigawa to me, except that I prefer Japanese mythology to Transformers

Well, it's only a fifth of the set I guess

dahcmai

03-29-2010, 07:48 PM

I keep thinking about those Eldrazi and even if you literally had a manabase with all double mana producers like Eye of Ulgin, that means Kozilek still costs 7.5 mana. Ouch! Yup he still sucks. Watch right at the very end, they slip in Shallow Grave as a common. I'd have to laugh.

puppektion

03-29-2010, 09:27 PM

Watch right at the very end, they slip in Shallow Grave as a common. I'd have to laugh.

Graveyard order is relevent with Shallow Grave. /nitpick

I can see this set being a beast for kitchen table magic, with tons of people on Troll and Toad crying for the fatties to be put on the "band list" (look at the customer reviews for Traumatize)

Personally, I can see some of these monstrosities seeing play (although probably not tier 1). Expect to see people trying to play Sneak Attack, Tooth and Nail/Defence of the Heart and Makeshift Mannequin/Shallow Grave.

As for Sarkhan... Great with top, although in the formats where that's legit, you've got better options (Counterbalance, Dark Confidant, Scrying Sheets). I can't speak for standard, and can hardly speak for extended, but I'm sure there are better options for them, too. I'll probably grab one for EDH, but I don't plan on using him elsewhere.

Edit: Sarkhan + Jace? Card advantage, yes. 9 total mana in 3 colors. Seems iffy :-\

Barook

03-30-2010, 12:05 AM

Is this basically Affinity for green creatures? (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=103537&d=1269921755)

Doesn't seem that bad if you play a deck with lots of mana-producing creatures like BoP or Noble Hierarch. The lack of self-protection sucks, though.

Tacosnape

03-30-2010, 12:19 AM

Sillyness = Khalni Hydra + Primalcrux.

And no, it's not quite Affinity unless Affinity is re-worded, because Affinity reduces colorless mana, whereas this is reducing colored mana. Maybe "Green Affinity for Green Creatures," but this sounds more like a bad indie band than an actual effort to simplify through keywording.

heroicraptor

03-30-2010, 12:34 AM

Wizards has managed to make my Rofellos EDH deck orgasm twice in a row.

Malchar

03-30-2010, 02:08 AM

9 total mana in 3 colors. Seems iffy :-\

Then again, the alternative is a deck that pumps out fatties for 15. Sarkhan could be useful as merely a draw source for black/red.

Wrath_Of_Houlding

03-30-2010, 09:06 AM

conboy31

03-30-2010, 11:28 AM

Out of curiosity I looked at the rules, Indestructibility + X Planeswalker, It does not work.

120.1b The number of loyalty counters on a planeswalker on the battlefield indicates how much loyalty it has. A planeswalker with 0 loyalty is put into its owner’s graveyard as a state-based action. See rule 704.

I was unsure if 0 loyalty meant it was "destroyed" or if it would SBE to the yard as I pondered the new vol.

bleuisforwhimps

03-30-2010, 03:11 PM

Spells:

4 trinisphere
4 chalice of the void
3 blood moon
3 magus of the moon
4 sneak attack
4 show and tell
4 mulldrifter
4 kozilek
4 emrakul

Mana:

4 simian spirit guides
4 chrome mox
4 ancient tomb
4 city of traitors
4 scalding tarn
3 volcanic island
2 island
1 mountain

I've been testing this and has shown promising results.
Sneak attack is definitely the way to go with the Eldrazi I think,
who cares about not taking an extra turn if you have annihilator 6 anyway.
It is still in development so any comment is welcome

rufus

03-30-2010, 04:04 PM

....
It is still in development so any comment is welcome
Alas, it seems like it's doomed to be inferior to Dragon Stompy since you require two cards for the Eldrazi wincon, and it doesn't have reach.

I wonder about something that uses:

Entomb
False Memories

plus

Shallow Grave
Footsteps of the Goryo

But I suppose it has the same issue of no reach.

Barook

03-30-2010, 04:10 PM

4 trinisphere
4 chalice of the void
3 blood moon
3 magus of the moon
4 sneak attack
4 show and tell
4 mulldrifter
4 kozilek
4 emrakul

Mana:

4 simian spirit guides
4 chrome mox
4 ancient tomb
4 city of traitors
4 scalding tarn
3 volcanic island
2 island
1 mountain
No Burning Wish to fetch Show and Tell or some utility? And the whole Dragon Stompy thing seems kinda meh.

DrJones

03-30-2010, 04:11 PM

Sharkan Vol might be good with damage prevention/redirection effects, but I don't like that he costs 5 mana.

Malchar

03-30-2010, 04:33 PM

HPB_Eggo

03-30-2010, 06:26 PM

http://www.gatheringmagic.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/angelheart1.jpg

Thoughts?

Personally, I think it would have to cost at least two less to be playable in Legacy, but maybe it's another card that deserves a look at in Brown something or other?

EDIT: It's not in English, so here is the card text...

Artifact

Whenever you’re dealt damage, you may put that many charge counter on ~.

Pay 2, tap, remove four charge counters : You gain 2 life and draw a card.

Aggro_zombies

03-30-2010, 07:05 PM

Personally, I think it would have to cost at least two less to be playable in Legacy
This. Even then, there's no clear home for it, and it would really need to be free to activate so that you're not tying up mana every turn to halve the power of one of your opponent's Tarmogoyfs.

Zork

03-30-2010, 09:28 PM

I'm gonna go ahead and call garbage. For card advantage its worse than Farsight Mask and for life its about as good as Sun Droplet. I wouldn't play either of those in Legacy, even if they crammed them into 1 card.

bleuisforwhimps

03-31-2010, 12:45 AM

Alas, it seems like it's doomed to be inferior to Dragon Stompy since you require two cards for the Eldrazi wincon, and it doesn't have reach.

I wonder about something that uses:

Entomb
False Memories

plus

Shallow Grave
Footsteps of the Goryo

But I suppose it has the same issue of no reach.

I don't get the reach thing, emrakul has flying and annihilator 6, and if put into play with sneak attack haste also. About being inferior to dragonstompy;this deck doesn't need to be hellbent, wich is a huge advantage over dragonstompy, mulldrifter is fantastic, and perhaps the magus could be replaced with thirst for knowledge giving it the carddraw that dragonstompy doesn't have. I do now that in a stompy shell it is hard to play 2 colors but you need show and tell here.

About burning wish; it's a possibility, however in my meta lands.dec and landstill are frequently played and therefore I prefer the magus and the blood moon,making these matchups very favorable, unless they play a humility before I have a moon or attacking Eldrazi into play. Also I haven't really thought about a toolbox for burning wish. I basically wrote down some decklists as soon as i saw those Eldrazi,and proxied this deck and went out to play. It definitely took some players by surprise, i can tell you that.

Aggro_zombies

03-31-2010, 12:46 AM

What do people think of Gideon, the new planeswalker? http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/stf/84

Costing five mana is a bit steep, but the +2 breaks games open and being able to revenge kill something and then rumble in with Gideon himself seems...not so bad. Difficult to evaluate, but probably under the curve for this format.

Vacrix

03-31-2010, 12:56 AM

How does it compare to Elspeth is the question. For 1 more you can kill stuff and it can swing. I think its better. It will probably be runnable in something like Quinn or DnT.

eq.firemind

03-31-2010, 01:19 AM

Could someone please post Gideon's text? Wiz site is blocked at my work =(

Mark Sun

03-31-2010, 01:21 AM

Could someone please post Gideon's text? Wiz site is blocked at my work =(

Gideon Jura 3ww
Planeswalker - Gideon Mythic Rare
[+2]: During target opponent's next turn, creatures that player controls attack Gideon Jura if able.
[-2]: Destroy target tapped creature.
[0]: Until end of turn, Gideon Jura becomes a 6/6 Human Soldier creature that's still a planeswalker. Prevent all damage that would be dealt to him this turn.
Illus. Aleksi Briclot #21/248

Since I just saw the dude about 10 seconds ago, I'm still up in the air on him.

eq.firemind

03-31-2010, 01:41 AM

Gideon Jura 3ww
Planeswalker - Gideon Mythic Rare
[+2]: During target opponent's next turn, creatures that player controls attack Gideon Jura if able.
[-2]: Destroy target tapped creature.
[0]: Until end of turn, Gideon Jura becomes a 6/6 Human Soldier creature that's still a planeswalker. Prevent all damage that would be dealt to him this turn.
Illus. Aleksi Briclot #21/248
Thanks!
The card's design is pretty cool!
And what about his starting loyality?

Jak

03-31-2010, 01:45 AM

Thanks!
The card's design is pretty cool!
And what about his starting loyality?

6

jrsthethird

03-31-2010, 02:00 AM

I like how he can act like Sleep and tap down your opponent's field to break a stalemate. He might be playable for us.

Aggro_zombies

03-31-2010, 02:12 AM

The more I think about him, the more I like him in the abstract.

The +2 is pretty much a game-ender. Your opponent pounds Gideon into the ground, and then probably take 6+ to the face on his next turn. Depending on his life total prior to your swing, he'll be in an awkward position if he survives because he can't really follow through on you being tapped out without risking losing to your final attack. However, if he doesn't attack, he misses a big opportunity. In most cases, it seems like the opponent will end up swinging with some guys and leaving some back as blockers, which isn't really effective and swings combat pretty far in your favor.

The -2 is pretty awesome. If you play Gideon the turn after your opponent swings with, say, an Exalted-boosted Tarmogoyf, he kills the Goyf and probably relieves your opponent of his best attacker while remaining out of easy burn range. Then you +2 him on your next turn and your opponent probably won't be in as good of a position to kill him with the attack, which is a huge nightmare.

The 0 ability is not bad. It's certainly more appealing as a win condition than Elspeth's tokens, as Gideon is impervious to damage and can kill most relevant creatures in the format if he gets blocked. Six power is also pretty good in this format.

The main issues here are the five mana and the lack of an application. Control would like him, but control sucks. Aggro-control decks won't want to shell out five mana for him because it's worse than NO or burn spells.

DukeDemonKn1ght

03-31-2010, 02:18 AM

I could see him going in something like Armageddon Stax, tag-teaming with Elspeth.

Also, here's the picture for everyone's reference (I know it always helps me somehow if I can see it):

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=103590&d=1270008131

spirit of the wretch

03-31-2010, 04:44 AM

I could see him going in something like Armageddon Stax, tag-teaming with Elspeth.

If I had a penny for every time someone suggests a new-spoiled card in a Staxx shell... It's not gonna happen!

More on topic: This guy costs 5 Mana. Let me reiterate that: 5. In words FIVE.

Against any aggro deck the first ability will probably buy you a turn (IF you ever get to cast him in that MU that is). Against aggro-control he will break the Goyfstall. You know what else breaks a Goyfstall: Elspeth/NewJace/Natural Order/every "Exaltet"-creature...

The second ability is interesting, but I don't think it's worth the mana.

The third ability is weird, making your killcondition susceptible to Swords. The one thing planeswalkers usually are immune to.

I can't think of a (realistic, non-narrow) situation where I would want this guy over Elspeth.

Barook

03-31-2010, 07:41 AM

I can't think of a (realistic, non-narrow) situation where I would want this guy over Elspeth.
There is also Baneslayer Angel for the same mana cost.

jrsthethird

03-31-2010, 08:23 AM

Infinitium

03-31-2010, 08:25 AM

I'm thinking this might actually be better than baneslayer in white chalice-aggro decks. Unlike Elspeth it has an immediate effect on the board (as it will either destroy the opponents best creature or break a standstill) and it presents a much faster clock than her. Also Elspeth has to be cast in a close-to-neutral boardstate in order to anything more than a speedbump whereas this can actually fiht back. I like.

rufus

03-31-2010, 09:21 AM

I think it might be instructive to look at the power level of 5cc+ spells that are hardcast in legacy these days.
Dream Halls - wins games the same turn.
Ad Nauseam - wins games the same turn.
Arc Slogger - wins games in 2-3 turns.

Roughly speaking, if a card costs 5, and can't win the same turn with support, or within 2-3 turns by itself, it's probably not legacy playable. Splinter Twin seems like a card with more potential than either of the planeswalkers since it combos with - for example - Pestermite,Battered Golem, Sunstrike Legionnaire or Sky Hussar for a win.

Pinder

03-31-2010, 03:40 PM

New card via Wizards' twitter:

http://www.wizards.com/mtg/images/tcg/products/riseoftheeldrazi/8ru1ysl51j_EN.jpg

It's pretty bad, though.

edit - On second though, the effect is repeatable, so maybe it's not all bad. Might see play in Reanimator, where nabbing this guy lets you hit a bunch of other fat from the top, and it's not like you had a lot of permanents anyway. Not sure if that's better than Iona, though.

Vacrix

03-31-2010, 04:36 PM

I'm going to try to run that Demon in SI. If it connects, you should win. If Belcher can win tournaments with jank like Deus of Calamity in its board, then SI can sure as hell play this. I'm going to test it for sure.

Other than that, its a jank rare. You need a huge threat density to abuse it.

xTrainx

03-31-2010, 04:45 PM

Definately going to try and pick up two or three of the new planeswalker, regardless of if he will have applicability. He looks like standard trade bait. Think about the soldier decks running around in Standard. Force Jund to attack him, leaving them wide open.

rufus

03-31-2010, 04:59 PM

edit - On second though, the effect is repeatable, so maybe it's not all bad. Might see play in Reanimator, where nabbing this guy lets you hit a bunch of other fat from the top, and it's not like you had a lot of permanents anyway. Not sure if that's better than Iona, though.

Seems like it should be strong enough to win the game. Style points for playing Kaervek's Spite, Restore Balance or Balancing Act with him.

Vacrix

03-31-2010, 06:02 PM

Wow. He's actually dam good with Restore Balance, and Wheel of Fate. That would be an odd deck though, that looks like it relies too much on the ideal situation.

jrsthethird

03-31-2010, 07:08 PM

Run a WB deck packed with discard, Rituals, and cheap removal like Swords, Path, Innocent Blood, and then drop this guy and hope for some Balancing Acts or Restore Balance.

Barook

03-31-2010, 07:38 PM

The Balance idea isn't bad, but I really hate how he fucks up your board position beyond recovery if he gets removed afterwards without any good replacement from the trigger.

Vacrix

03-31-2010, 07:58 PM

The good thing, though is that you are going to get some stuff afterwards. I can also see some tricks with Tutors that put stuff ontop the the deck... Worldly Tutor anyone?

xTrainx

03-31-2010, 08:02 PM

OMG THE NEW GUY IS KOZILEK CTHULU.DEC.

On a more serious note, I have a feeling that he has potential in Standard, by playing black, and then stacking your deck with (the good) Eldrazi. You would just remove your shit, and get extra turns, rinse and repeat.

I think he has no application in Legacy. He would if he had haste or shroud, but he doesn't.

EDIT: He could provide some lulz with Sneak Attack.

rufus

03-31-2010, 11:15 PM

EDIT: He could provide some lulz with Sneak Attack.

He's black and wipes out your permanents. Is there any reason *not* to use Shallow Grave/Necromancy if you're going to do that sort of thing.

Honestly, he looks potentially legacy playable. Critter with few restrictions on ways to cheat him into play, has evasion, and can go off like a bomb if he makes it to the red zone. Admittedly, it - more or less - coughs up a lung and dies in the face of 3sphere and such.

Barook

04-01-2010, 05:36 AM

Near-Death Experience (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=103663&d=1270094565) seems interesting, at least with an instant way to pay life.

Question: Does the trigger go on the stack automatically and checks later if you have one life, or does it only get on the stack if you have one life left?

BreathWeapon

04-01-2010, 07:34 AM

That Demon is really interesting, in Storm Combo he beats for 6 and then gives you a Mind's Desire for 6 on top of it every turn, that's a hell of a Living Wish target for sure.

Barook

04-01-2010, 07:50 AM

That Demon is really interesting, in Storm Combo he beats for 6 and then gives you a Mind's Desire for 6 on top of it every turn, that's a hell of a Living Wish target for sure.
I still think the best way to abuse the demon is with Emrakul - if you can set up Emrakul to be within those six cards (Worldly Tutor, Brainstorm, etc.), it's pretty much auto-win from there, considering you get a free Time Walk and a 21 points of flying power swing in that next turn, aside from the 6 damage you just delivered. I can't see many people surviving this.

Jeff Kruchkow

04-01-2010, 02:59 PM

Dreamstone Hedron 6
T: Add 3
3, T Sac: Draw 3 Cards.

Its essentially a triple mind stone. It could maybe see play in wildfire as an accel and carxd draw?

lolosoon

04-01-2010, 03:39 PM

Dreamstone Hedron 6
T: Add 3
3, T Sac: Draw 3 Cards.

Its essentially a triple mind stone. It could maybe see play in wildfire as an accel and carxd draw?
In Legacy ?! Dunno... Not enough accel nor love for Welder.dec

Maybe in Vintage, in a Slaver//Welder shell...?

Nightmare

04-01-2010, 03:45 PM

In Legacy ?! Dunno... Not enough accel nor love for Welder.dec

Maybe in Vintage, in a Slaver//Welder shell...?

Not when for one more mana you could Slave them.

xTrainx

04-01-2010, 04:12 PM

I'm going to pick up a couple copies of Near Death, it just looks fun to toy around with.

jrsthethird

04-01-2010, 05:08 PM

The Balance idea isn't bad, but I really hate how he fucks up your board position beyond recovery if he gets removed afterwards without any good replacement from the trigger.

Well don't swing until you know Balance is in order.

chris_acheson

04-01-2010, 05:18 PM

Phoenix Ignition

04-01-2010, 05:38 PM

Near-Death Experience (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=103663&d=1270094565)

So mana burn is indeed dead.

I wish the demon was not a mythic, I will never get it now regardless of its cool factor. I doubt it will ever make it in a deck because there are far better creature bombs, but we can always dream.

Arrowni

04-01-2010, 05:58 PM

Sadly enough, the new demon combos with pretty much every turn-winning card in the game.

Except the flip a coin one.

Vacrix

04-01-2010, 06:04 PM

Near Death Experience looks pretty sick. I am the only one who noticed its tech with Angel's Grace?

Aggro_zombies

04-01-2010, 06:05 PM

Near Death Experience looks pretty sick. I am the only one who noticed its tech with Angel's Grace?
No, I'm pretty sure everyone figured out the EOT Angel's Grace, Ad Nauseum, untap, win (as long as your opponent isn't playing red).

Vacrix

04-01-2010, 06:11 PM

No, I'm pretty sure everyone figured out the EOT Angel's Grace, Ad Nauseum, untap, win (as long as your opponent isn't playing red).

Well it makes no sense to play this in Ad Nausuem. If you can get off Angel's Grace + AdN, you should win with Tendrils anyway, without having to pass the turn.

I think it could make for an interesting deck taking advantage of both Angel's Grace and NDE, and probably other cards that let you pay life cleverly such as Righteous Aura. At the very least it will be a funny ass casual deck.

BTW:
There is the problem of burn though. How could that be solved? Chalice? The deck could play with Ancient Tomb/City of Traitors to gets some stall pieces out quickly, while Tomb also acts as a way to get your life total to 1, though over time.

TheDarkshineKnight

04-01-2010, 07:12 PM

thebadmagicplayer

04-01-2010, 07:20 PM

worship.

Vacrix

04-01-2010, 07:43 PM

Oh, sweet lord. There HAS to be a way to break that.

Fire Covenant + Stuffy Doll/Near Death Experience = Your opponents jaw cleaning the floor
:D

Barook

04-01-2010, 08:00 PM

Oh, sweet lord. There HAS to be a way to break that.
You could go with Academy Rector, Cabal Therapy, Phyrexian Tower and other stuff to fetch it. Black also offers various ways to get to one life rather easily, e.g. Blood Celebrant which also fixes your mana.

The problem is rather how to protect the combo (or better said, yourself) from stuff like Krosan Grip or burn.

Conficker

04-01-2010, 10:44 PM

Oh, sweet lord. There HAS to be a way to break that.

R/W Jank.dec
http://www.mtgcombos.com/images/cards/ts/fortune_thief2.jpg
At the least, this card serves as a lightning rod for bolts and burn without risking to reduce your life to 1 when an opponent can finish you off.

Angelfire

04-01-2010, 11:39 PM

Its like midnight now, this was my April fools joke lol

New card on the spoiler:

Aqueduct Saboteur :U:
Creature - Merfolk Rogue

Whenever Aqueduct Saboteur deals combat damage to a player, tap target permanent that player controls. That permanent doesn't untap during its controller's next untap step.

1/1

Vacrix

04-01-2010, 11:52 PM

What spoiler? Not MTGsalvation's spoiler. Thats the one I follow and its pretty reliable.

That card seems pretty good, if its real. It feeds into Merfolk's mana denial strategy pretty well in the early turns of the game. It doesn't look that great against Zoo though. It still has to connect.

ktkenshinx

04-01-2010, 11:52 PM

New card on the spoiler:

Aqueduct Saboteur :U:
Creature - Merfolk Rogue

Whenever Aqueduct Saboteur deals combat damage to a player, tap target permanent that player controls. That permanent doesn't untap during its controller's next untap step.

1/1

Where is the source for this? I checked both the MTGS Rumor Mill and the Wizards website and could not find it.

-ktkenshinx-

jrsthethird

04-01-2010, 11:56 PM

New card on the spoiler:

Aqueduct Saboteur :U:
Creature - Merfolk Rogue

Whenever Aqueduct Saboteur deals combat damage to a player, tap target permanent that player controls. That permanent doesn't untap during its controller's next untap step.

1/1

Definitely playable. Kind of like Merfolk's Goblin Lackey, but instead of speeding you up, it slows them down. Especially against opposing blue decks once it gets Islandwalk from a Lord. You can keep their Goyf locked down all day.

Vacrix

04-02-2010, 12:00 AM

You can keep their Goyf locked down all day.

How would you get it to connect when Goyf down? Make it unblockable first?

Its terrible against Zoo and Goblins just cause its not going to hit home, if the opponent knows whats good for them.

Vacrix

04-02-2010, 12:07 AM

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=232299

Student of Warfare W
Creature - Human Knight
Level Up: W (1/1)
Level 2-6 First Strike (3/3)
Level +7 Double Strike (4/4)

That guy looks pretty dam good. WW for a 3/3 First Strike? Hells yea. He slowly gets bigger too until you are swinging for 8. I like him. Maybe he will get run in DnT?

ktkenshinx

04-02-2010, 12:09 AM

Wizards has posted their newest preview. I, at least, was excited to see it.

http://www.wizards.com/mtg/images/tcg/products/riseoftheeldrazi/j3q65js112_EN.jpg

This might be strong enough for Zoo. Certainly for White Weenie. 1 mana gets you a regular 1/1. With a single mana investment, this pumps to a 3/3 first striker. What does this compare to? Wild Nacatl and Steppe Lynx. Against Wasteland, Student is probably better than Nacatl, as it pumps to the same p/t, gives first strike, and does not require you to invest in unstable lands. In regards to Lynx, Student has lower p/t, but consistently remains 3/3. First strike also matters in the aggro matchup.

All in all, I think this is a card that deserves serious consideration in the deck. While I may be overblowing its virtues, Student is definitely a worthy card (definitely in White Weenie).

-ktkenshinx-

Vacrix

04-02-2010, 12:12 AM

DnT is going to kick ass with that man. Its dam good against aggro, especially if you land a Mom. Not to mention you can tutor up 2 of them with Rangers of Eos.

Vacrix

04-02-2010, 12:20 AM

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=103734&stc=1&d=1270181773

Interesting. It might fit into mono-black as a finisher. Its certainly huge if it lands. The lack of evasion is a bit of a drawback though, considering how huge it will likely be if you aren't cheating it into play.

Nihil Credo

04-02-2010, 12:33 AM

Unless there is some extremely good Drain Life-esque spell in the set (i.e. that requires lots of exclusively black mana), Nirkana looks pretty pathetic compared to Ob Nixilis, which is even in the same Block Constructed.

Student of Warfare, on the other side, is one of the best White creatures ever printed. Kind of a blatant cash-rare, though - in terms of design and complexity it feels like an uncommon, which then got the gold symbol purely because of power level.

EDIT: I, too, missed that it takes two pumps to become 3/3. That makes it rather less nuts, but still very good.

Meekrab

04-02-2010, 12:35 AM

That guy looks pretty dam good. WW for a 3/3 First Strike? Hells yea. He slowly gets bigger too until you are swinging for 8. I like him. Maybe he will get run in DnT?
Level up creatures come into play at level 0. So it's WWW for a 3/3 First strike. Not quite as awesome.

Vacrix

04-02-2010, 12:47 AM

Level up creatures come into play at level 0. So it's WWW for a 3/3 First strike. Not quite as awesome.

WTF? Really? Levelers dont start at level 1? Thats SO lame. Thats like having conception days instead of birthdays...

Are you sure thats how it works? I might have to move my Birthday back like 9 months.

rufus

04-02-2010, 12:50 AM

Are you sure thats how it works? I might have to move my Birthday back like 9 months.

Yeah, a bunch of the levelers get upgrades at level 1.

slylie

04-02-2010, 01:05 AM

Realms Uncharted seems awesome but not so much in lands. Intuition is better so it might have a chance at replacing gamble/tolaria west. The problem is that the former can get you non-land cards, which is very important. If anything I feel like gifts ungiven would be better than Realms Uncharted because it can get Life from the Loam.

gifts is 10 times better than Realms Uncharted. Just getting the worst 2 of 4 lands will be really crap if you don't have loam (or crucible). The extra 1 mana is almost insignificant in a deck that usually has 5-7 lands on the table turn 2. I don't play lands but just looking at the card it seems like its just much worse than gifts or crop rotation as a way to tutor lands.

As for the set in general, nothing has impressed me yet. It seems as if wizards decided to really slow down the game with these big mana spells and monsters. 15cc creatures, 6cc Artifact mana, 5cc removal, and this level up stuff.. I'm hoping the rest of the 150 odd cards are more legacy playable. Zendikar gave us some good stuff to work with, but this set seems really borning so far, unless you are a casual player.

Vacrix

04-02-2010, 01:12 AM

I'm hoping the rest of the 150 odd cards are more legacy playable.
Likely they are the 150 original Pokemon based on how this set has been going so far. I completely agree man. Its been pretty disappointing, maybe with the exceptions of stuff that looks moderately playable in some archtypes like All is Dust and Student of Warfare.
The resemblance to Pokemon and Yugioh is unmistakable though. "Hey guys my creature is bigger than your creature. Now I'll play Bill and draw 3 cards for 0."

Otter

04-02-2010, 01:15 AM

WTF? Really? Levelers dont start at level 1? Thats SO lame. Thats like having conception days instead of birthdays...

Are you sure thats how it works? I might have to move my Birthday back like 9 months.

Yeah, it's pretty stupid. I can't think of any games that I've played which start you at level zero.

Arsenal

04-02-2010, 01:38 AM

worship.

This actually sounds reasonable with Near Death Experience. Hmm...

TorpidNinja

04-02-2010, 06:03 AM

Yeah, it's pretty stupid. I can't think of any games that I've played which start you at level zero.

Cave Story.

In other news, who cares? How would this be any different if they did start at 0 and just increased the level requirements by one? Besides which, this makes tracking the current level marginally easier - I'd rather see people tracking the level of their creatures correctly every time than games lost to people thinking counters mean something wholly different for these creatures than they have for every other creature ever printed.

Barook

04-02-2010, 06:20 AM

Student of Warfare (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=103733&stc=1&d=1270181048)

Thoughts? It's at least much more cost-efficient than the other level up crap we have seen so far. But would it be really worth to play it alongside FoD?

jrsthethird

04-02-2010, 07:59 AM

Starting at Level 1 would cause too much clutter on the card. You have to squeeze another line (This ETB with 1 Level counter on it) into the box of an already crammed bunch of cards.

Cards naturally ETB with no counters or anything, so there's no reason to complicate it for a subtle difference many people won't even notice or care about.

Cabal_chan

04-02-2010, 01:09 PM

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=103767&d=1270224520

Momentous Fall 2gg
Instant Rare
As an additional cost to cast Momentous Fall, sacrifice a creature.
You draw cards equal to the sacrificed creature's power, then you gain life equal to the its toughness.

There has to be some use for that.

MattH

04-02-2010, 01:23 PM

scrumdogg

04-02-2010, 01:33 PM

What an interesting way to 'fizzle' a removal spell. That being said, what deck in Legacy would want this instead of either A) a way to counter the removal or B) pro-active protection like Chalice/3Sphere/Sword of Something-or-other etc? The card is both too expensive & too conditional for combo decks & using it intentionally not only runs the risk of 2:1 ing yourself (and being -2CA before you draw anything) but why would you want to shank one of your best creatures? Someone will play it, but can it be done efficiently?

hyperchord24

04-02-2010, 01:47 PM

I'm thinking Momentus Fall could work in Combo elves, but the only creature probably worth using it on with Regal Force. At that point it might just be win more.

Akuma

04-02-2010, 01:52 PM

Lol, Momentous Fall + Phyrexian Dreadnought combo, watch out!

rufus

04-02-2010, 02:34 PM

Lol, Momentous Fall + Phyrexian Dreadnought combo, watch out!
It's basically a single use improved Greater Good. Also has potential to work with other stuff like briarhorn or Death's Shadow.

Cabal_chan

04-02-2010, 03:23 PM

Lol, Momentous Fall + Phyrexian Dreadnought combo, watch out!

It works (without the whole Stifle thing)?

lolosoon

04-02-2010, 03:38 PM

It works (without the whole Stifle thing)?
Of Course !

Play Dreadnought, in response to the CiP trigger play Momentous Fall sacc'ing the Nought => 2 cards 'combo', GG3, Draw 12, Gain 12Life.

Arrowni

04-02-2010, 06:20 PM

Better yet, Dreadnought + Momentous Fall + Nourishing Lich!

Now, thats card draw.

Barook

04-02-2010, 07:51 PM

Main problem is its price - for :2::g::g: and a creature, you could just NO ftw. That said, it could be fun with pump effects.

LordEvilTeaCup

04-02-2010, 09:54 PM

It's basically a single use improved Greater Good. Also has potential to work with other stuff like briarhorn or Death's Shadow.

Doesn't work too well with Death's Shadow unless you are really low on life. The card doesn't look at printed power and toughness, but on what it actually is on the field.

Nicol Bolas

04-02-2010, 10:15 PM

http://img40.imagefra.me/img/img40/2/4/2/f_tavofc0thm_dd30637.jpg

Any takers?

whienot

04-02-2010, 10:34 PM

Throw in Academy Rector and you may have something. Entwine, sacrificing Rector, digabunch, win?

Probably a little too slow to be competitive.

(nameless one)

04-02-2010, 10:37 PM

I love that alternate art for Near Death Experience

Conficker

04-02-2010, 11:18 PM

I love that alternate art for Near Death Experience

A full-art textless version will be given out as DCI Player Rewards card so watch out for it in the mail in the coming months.

Oiolosse

04-03-2010, 02:42 AM

Main problem is its price - for :2::g::g: and a creature, you could just NO ftw. That said, it could be fun with pump effects.

I have a bit of a problem with justifying that so-and-so spell has the same CMC as another so therefore why even play it. Not saying you said just that but it did remind me that I read that argument quite often here. I mean, sure, NO is terrific and there are many decks playing heavy green with 3-4 slots in limbo that could (maybe well should) consider it, but not necessarily. It is always worth looking at the possible uses for a card disregarding how same CMC cards hold up.

jrsthethird

04-03-2010, 02:44 AM

A full-art textless version will be given out as DCI Player Rewards card so watch out for it in the mail in the coming months.

That would be terrible. I doubt they would do that with a niche card like this.

Vacrix

04-05-2010, 12:14 AM

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=103866&d=1270440427

I think its hilarious that you can turn a Kobold into an Eldrazi..

EDIT:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=103857&stc=1&d=1270440134
I doubt he will get played in legacy. He can generate some mad card disadvantage but you have to get him to 2/4 to get him out of bolt range, and he's a huge mana sink.

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=103865&d=1270440395

This guy is meh. Too costly an investment to get played anywhere.

Barook

04-05-2010, 12:21 AM

This thing is so much better than Mythic Proportions when combined with Academy Researchers.

I don't know if it's viable, but 12/12 trample with annihilator 2 for :1::u::u: doesn't sound that bad. More expensive than Stiflenought, but at least it doesn't get hit by cards which only hate artifacts.

DukeDemonKn1ght

04-05-2010, 01:03 AM

As far as Eldrazi Conscription goes, it seems like Zur the Enchanter just got a new toy to play with.

EDIT: Nevermind, I'm an idiot. D'oh!

BreathWeapon

04-05-2010, 06:51 AM

Hell yes, a 3/3 First Strike for WW? Screw FOD, I'd rather have a creature that ate Nacatl's and Geese - that thing is awesome.

DukeDemonKn1ght

04-05-2010, 06:58 AM

Unfortunately I'm pretty sure you have to pay :w::w::w: to make him a 3/3 first strike. Personally I was a little disappointed when I realized...

Barook

04-05-2010, 06:59 AM

Hell yes, a 3/3 First Strike for WW? Screw FOD, I'd rather have a creature that ate Nacatl's and Geese - that thing is awesome.
Actually, it's :w::w::w: - it needs level 2 to become a 3/3 first striker. Still good with Vial, though.

Ch@os

04-05-2010, 08:19 AM

Barook

04-05-2010, 11:35 AM

Mythmaker would also grant at least some resilience against removal. Aside from StP, white could also provide search in form of Enlightened Tutor or a Tallowisp shell.

troopatroop

04-05-2010, 12:15 PM

I'm pretty sure Student of Warfare is a WW for 3/3. 1 to play it, 1 to level it up, and it only needs to be level 2. Am I missing something?

Seems like the best card in the set.

Nightmare

04-05-2010, 12:21 PM

I'm pretty sure Student of Warfare is a WW for 3/3. 1 to play it, 1 to level it up, and it only needs to be level 2. Am I missing something?

Seems like the best card in the set.

You're missing the fact that creatures start at level 0.

Vacrix

04-05-2010, 12:32 PM

Hell yes, a 3/3 First Strike for WW? Screw FOD, I'd rather have a creature that ate Nacatl's and Geese - that thing is awesome.

I made the same mistake. Level 0 is such a dumb idea. I'm surprised that WoTC would do something so dumb when they are clearly trying to streamline the game.

Aggro_zombies

04-05-2010, 12:40 PM

I made the same mistake. Level 0 is such a dumb idea. I'm surprised that WoTC would do something so dumb when they are clearly trying to streamline the game.
Actually, it's not. Having a creature come into play at level one would necessitate an extra line of text: This creature enters the battlefield with a level counter on it and is Level 1. That takes up more space on the card and makes the templating less clean. Omitting it and still having the creature CIP at level one would eat up too much mental space as people would have to remember that a creature's level is actually X+1, where X is the number of level counters on it, and they would have to remember all of this without on-card reminder text.

I mean, sure, other games don't work that way (character is always level 1 at start), but there's no good way to do that on these cards without making the text impossibly small or cutting down on the number of potential level-ups the creature could have.

Sims

04-05-2010, 12:43 PM

This.

The precident of having text stating "~this~ comes into play with x counters" is already set on cards, if a creature doesn't state that it comes into play with counters, than it has 0 counters on it. Why should that change with level up creatures? they come into play with 0 Level Counters, but have the opportunity for growth and leveling up.

jrsthethird

04-05-2010, 01:30 PM

Aggro_zombies

04-05-2010, 02:14 PM

No one noticed your post the first time, since they're still bitterly complaining about the mechanic's execution, so I figured I'd reiterate it (with buyback).

:P

DukeDemonKn1ght

04-05-2010, 02:21 PM

The way leveling up is templated definitely makes the most sense with creatures starting at Level 0.

However, Student of Warfare would be a lot stronger if it only had to reach Level 1 in order to get 3/3 first strike. It's not like that would be such a ridiculous creature by today's standards (think White/ Silver Knight with +1/+1 and one less ability), and White Weenie really needs the love as an archetype. It's not like 4/4 double strike is going to happen realistically anywhere outside of Standard, and I really don't think this guy cuts it for Legacy the way they printed him.

I really really wish they wouldn't have pussed out, and had actually printed a ridiculously good White Weenie card. It certainly wouldn't be anywhere near broken compared to Wild Nacatl. And White is supposed to have good weenies anyways, which is a piece of the pie that Green is steadily taking over.

Right now, White's function in Legacy is basically "Play me if you want the best creature kill (although Black and Red also can do this), or you want Qasali Pridemage, or you want to run some enchantment-based strategy, or you want to play a ponderously slow control deck like Quinn. Otherwise, keep right on walking, there are other better colors out there." It just makes me sad, because I love the flavor and mechanics of White's cards, but I'm not a fan of how it generally plays out in Legacy, which is my favorite format.

Aggro_zombies

04-05-2010, 02:26 PM

DukeDemonKn1ght

04-05-2010, 02:42 PM

That would be a nice post, except Wizards doesn't design cards specifically for the Eternal formats. White Weenie is already a pretty good deck in Standard, and this card is clearly very strong in a deck that can pay four mana to find two of them and put a 3/2 into play to boot.

Yeah, but I don't really think it would have made White Weenie the best deck in Standard or anything if they had printed him as a functional 3/3 for :w::w:. It would be a lot like Watchwolf, except stronger.

Gheizen64

04-05-2010, 03:36 PM

Yeah, but I don't really think it would have made White Weenie the best deck in Standard or anything if they had printed him as a functional 3/3 for :w::w:. It would be a lot like Watchwolf, except stronger.

It wouldn't be like Watchwolf. It would more like an hasted watchwolf with first strike. Or a 3/3 first strike echo at W (just better). The split cost make this so much better than a comparable card at cmc 2.
Also, this not being conditional like Goyf was means they can't make it too good as they have to keep in mind standard and extended.

I like the card as it is. The problems of white wouldn't have been solved by a cheap vanilla creature anyway. White suffer from the fact it has mediocre threats (except some slower cards like BSA) and very narrow answers. But i'm disgressing.

Cire

04-05-2010, 05:46 PM

Haha this set is fun as hell...

heres an other minicombo

Play any creature, Even shrouded creatures...actually the latter would be perferable.
Get to 4UW mana and playSovriegns of Lost Alara
Attack with a creature, search out Eldrazi Conscription
Party Time

Put in Noble heirach, mana elves, maybe a worldy tutor or two, some draw, some counterspells, good times?

Willoe

04-05-2010, 05:57 PM

Actually, it's :w::w::w: - it needs level 2 to become a 3/3 first striker. Still good with Vial, though.

Not that good since dudes only levels up at sorcery speed. Level up would be insane if it could be used at instant speed, sadly it can't.

Aggro_zombies

04-05-2010, 06:13 PM

Not that good since dudes only levels up at sorcery speed. Level up would be insane if it could be used at instant speed, sadly it can't.
It would be good, yes, but not interesting. They made it sorcery-speed for the same reason they took combat damage off the stack: there are fewer situations where you just autopilot the decisions involved.

DukeDemonKn1ght

04-05-2010, 06:16 PM

It wouldn't be like Watchwolf. It would more like an hasted watchwolf with first strike. Or a 3/3 first strike echo at W (just better). The split cost make this so much better than a comparable card at cmc 2.
Also, this not being conditional like Goyf was means they can't make it too good as they have to keep in mind standard and extended.

I like the card as it is. The problems of white wouldn't have been solved by a cheap vanilla creature anyway. White suffer from the fact it has mediocre threats (except some slower cards like BSA) and very narrow answers. But i'm disgressing.

White probably has the most flexible answers of any color in Legacy, with the notable exception of Force of Will (which is obviously strong enough to tip the scales in Blue's favor). White suffers because its threats are sub-par compared to the best options available, it has very few relevant ways to disrupt the opponent (note that even Red has more playable disruption thanks to Moon effects, the only color with less ways to interact with combo is Green), it has no creature "tribes" with enough depth to compare to Goblins Merfolk or Elves, and most of the things that only White cards can do aren't really things you want to do in competitive level play anyways.

I mean seriously, let's take a look at the color pie right now. What are the things that White can do that no other color can do at the moment? Hmm... Hate-bears and life-gain? Yeah, I want to build a Legacy deck around that shit fuh sho.

Bottom line? Yes, Student of Warfare would be ridiculously good if it was 3/3 on Level 1. But I really don't think it would be "broken-good," and I really don't even think Mono-White would be one of the best decks in Standard or anything. This is me bitching because I want the card to be super-powerful, and yes, I think Standard could handle it. (Also there's the fact I don't give a rat's ass about Standard, but I digress....)

MMogg

04-05-2010, 06:41 PM

It would be good, yes, but not interesting. They made it sorcery-speed for the same reason they took combat damage off the stack: there are fewer situations where you just autopilot the decisions involved.

The funny thing is my natural inclination is still "dmg on the stack, do stuff". To me, autopilot is to abuse dmg on the stack. *sigh*

White probably has the most flexible answers of any color in Legacy, with the notable exception of Force of Will (which is obviously strong enough to tip the scales in Blue's favor). White suffers because its threats are sub-par compared to the best options available, it has very few relevant ways to disrupt the opponent (note that even Red has more playable disruption thanks to Moon effects, the only color with less ways to interact with combo is Green), it has no creature "tribes" with enough depth to compare to Goblins Merfolk or Elves, and most of the things that only White cards can do aren't really things you want to do in competitive level play anyways.

I mean seriously, let's take a look at the color pie right now. What are the things that White can do that no other color can do at the moment? Hmm... Hate-bears and life-gain? Yeah, I want to build a Legacy deck around that shit fuh sho.

Bottom line? Yes, Student of Warfare would be ridiculously good if it was 3/3 on Level 1. But I really don't think it would be "broken-good," and I really don't even think Mono-White would be one of the best decks in Standard or anything. This is me bitching because I want the card to be super-powerful, and yes, I think Standard could handle it. (Also there's the fact I don't give a rat's ass about Standard, but I digress....)

Are you saying Soldiers aren't the strongest tribe?! :wink: Or what about Humans? lol It's really an eye opener when you do start to break down white's slice of the colour pie, that they have a lot of reactive and/or slow stuff like board sweepers (reactive and slow) and creature exiling cards (reactive) and fat assed angels (slow). They have weenies, but they are too small to compete with, primarily, green beef. That's a good question to pose to Wizards R&D... just what CAN white do that makes it a competitive choice for a mono-coloured deck?

DukeDemonKn1ght

04-05-2010, 07:02 PM

It just occurred to me that they could have made Student of Warfare at least be a Human Knight Ally, that alone would have given him room to be a lot better, since Kazandu Blademaster is a pretty lonely fella these days. *Sigh...

In other news, Maro's article today seemed to me like it should be subtitled "Or, how we decided to make this set full of huge Timmy-tastic creatures that cost a bazillion mana, then we realized we had to actually make sure they were playable in some format, and so we sort of got shoe-horned into filling up about ~33% of the set with a bunch of unexciting filler cards so we can make sure Timmy can play his Blue Eyes White Godzilla in Standard or Limited. You know, the "cash cow" formats. And then there's the leveler creatures, which we had to balance for Limited, so they pretty much all cost umpteen zillion mana before they even get mediocre in competitive formats. Y'all enjoy that." //:END RANT

Link: On The Rise, Part II (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/mm/85)

It seems to me that "power creep" is going in exactly the opposite direction of how people assumed it would: Instead of everything just getting balls-to-the-wall better over the course of time, they seem to be trying to balance that out by gradually slowing down the game on a fundamental level.

Malchar

04-05-2010, 07:58 PM

It seems to me that "power creep" is going in exactly the opposite direction of how people assumed it would: Instead of everything just getting balls-to-the-wall better over the course of time, they seem to be trying to balance that out by gradually slowing down the game on a fundamental level.

With this in mind, I wonder if there will be any rediculous "defensive bombs" coming up in future sets, a.la. Trinisphere. Maybe we could see something like Sixsphere if they continue the theme of "pay a lot, get a lot."

Barook

04-05-2010, 07:59 PM

In other news, Maro's article today seemed to me like it should be subtitled "Or, how we decided to make this set full of huge Timmy-tastic creatures that cost a bazillion mana, then we realized we had to actually make sure they were playable in some format, and so we sort of got shoe-horned into filling up about ~33% of the set with a bunch of unexciting filler cards so we can make sure Timmy can play his Blue Eyes White Godzilla in Standard or Limited. You know, the "cash cow" formats. And then there's the leveler creatures, which we had to balance for Limited, so they pretty much all cost umpteen zillion mana before they even get mediocre in competitive formats. Y'all enjoy that." //:END RANT

Nice assumption, but with the current course the set is taking, I doubt it's going to sell well because the power level is (and I'm quite euphemistic here) quite low.

And this part of the article was absolutely retarded:

The idea behind totem armor was to offset the inherent card disadvantage of Auras. Normally when you play an Aura on a creature you have the vulnerability of being "two-for-oned"—that is, your opponent can spend one card (a kill spell) to make you lose two cards (your creature and your Aura). Totem armor prevents the two-for-one because it saves your creature. The Aura acts as a safety net.
You can still kill the creature in response to the aura and still 2-for-1 your opponent. Or use stuff like StP, PtE or whatever exile effect is currently popular. Why can't they print just something like this:

New Rancor (insert CC here)
Enchantment - Aura
Enchant creature
Split Second
Enchanted creature gets +2/+0 and has trample.
When the enchanted creature leaves the battlefield, return New Rancor to its owner's hand.

No more 2-for-1 due to creature removal, but you can still destroy it using enchantment removal, unlike the normal Rancor. Also bonus points for being uncounterable.

Malchar

04-05-2010, 08:10 PM

@Barook: True, but it might be a little too good if you were always guaranteed to break even on card advantage. Totem armor seems fair, if they have an instant-speed answer, then you lose 1 ca. If the armor resolves, then you always break even plus you get the passive bonus of the aura.

Gheizen64

04-05-2010, 08:29 PM

White probably has the most flexible answers of any color in Legacy, with the notable exception of Force of Will (which is obviously strong enough to tip the scales in Blue's favor). White suffers because its threats are sub-par compared to the best options available, it has very few relevant ways to disrupt the opponent (note that even Red has more playable disruption thanks to Moon effects, the only color with less ways to interact with combo is Green), it has no creature "tribes" with enough depth to compare to Goblins Merfolk or Elves, and most of the things that only White cards can do aren't really things you want to do in competitive level play anyways.

I mean seriously, let's take a look at the color pie right now. What are the things that White can do that no other color can do at the moment? Hmm... Hate-bears and life-gain? Yeah, I want to build a Legacy deck around that shit fuh sho.

Bottom line? Yes, Student of Warfare would be ridiculously good if it was 3/3 on Level 1. But I really don't think it would be "broken-good," and I really don't even think Mono-White would be one of the best decks in Standard or anything. This is me bitching because I want the card to be super-powerful, and yes, I think Standard could handle it. (Also there's the fact I don't give a rat's ass about Standard, but I digress....)

I disagree. White has answers for everything, but the card themselves ARE narrow. Burn is (was, hi Goyf) good because it can work as removal AND as reach. It's a treath but it can also control the board. Card drawing it's another thing that's always good, and help you find answers. That's green, blue and black. Discard is a mechanic similar to card draw, less generally useful, but still quite universal (see Duress variants). White has also only 1 decent tutor, enlightened, while green, blue and black have more. Counterspells, also universally useful, are all blue. The best anti-aggro card was StP, it's now Tarmogoyf. White has many good but narrow or slow cards (WoG, Geddon, Abeyance, Disenchant, Suppressing field, Ghost prison... etc).

White and Red have big issues in Legacy. However, i see hope for white, more than i see for red. Red would really need a red dark ritual, but that's unprintable by today's standards. Bolt isn't good anymore, and red creatures aren't as useful if burn can't remove blockers. Dunno what you could do to help red. White's much easier, having basically 60% of the color pie.

Vacrix

04-05-2010, 08:42 PM

Aggro_zombies

04-05-2010, 09:17 PM

The issue I see here is that, except in Standard, there are no decks that want this that wouldn't just shell out for Tarmogoyf and have a constant 4/5 for :g: less.

Elves might want it, but it seems like it would be better to just play a lord in the three-drop slot and make combat awkward for your opponent.

xTrainx

04-05-2010, 09:22 PM

Red would really need a red dark ritual, but that's unprintable by today's standards.

Rite of Flame?

At the new card:

I really like it - definitely going to have to pick up four of it. He's a 5/5 on turn 3 with Top, and I could see a list with

x4 Hierarch
x4 Tarmogoyf
x4 Newcard
x3 Vendillion Clique(or RWM, whatever floats your boat)

Succeeding, you have 1/4 of your deck as creatures, and with Top/Brainstorm/Fetches, you can almost always manipulate the creature to stay. If you have open mana, you can reveal the creature for the attack, and then hide it again so that you can reuse it.

I really really like this card.

DukeDemonKn1ght

04-05-2010, 09:24 PM

Nice assumption, but with the current course the set is taking, I doubt it's going to sell well because the power level is (and I'm quite euphemistic here) equivalent to that of a newborn kitten with low-birth weight and feline Down Syndrome.

Fixed. :wink:

rufus

04-05-2010, 10:21 PM

Link: On The Rise, Part II (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/mm/85)

It seems to me that "power creep" is going in exactly the opposite direction of how people assumed it would: Instead of everything just getting balls-to-the-wall better over the course of time, they seem to be trying to balance that out by gradually slowing down the game on a fundamental level.

"Auras Matter"
"Walls Matter"
...
Yeah, maybe they'll make the 'blocking matters' set next.

Malchar

04-05-2010, 10:43 PM

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=103897&stc=1&d=1270510520\

This looks decent. 3 for a potential 5/5 is pretty legit. Its excellent with SDT, Mirri's Guile or Sylvan Library. I can see this being played in legacy. Its even flexible for dropping some sort of big guy or spell if you run into it with Top + Fetches or something.

EDIT:
On a side note, those shaman things look like Gothic Navi.

I don't think any green deck in legacy has enough creatures to support this. For example, in threshold, you could use brainstorm/sdt to keep a goyf on top of your library, but that seems pretty silly when you would rather just play the goyf. Besides, many decks tend to minimize their number of creatures (especially with combo on the rise, decks tend to want more counters/removal.) Besides, doesn't anyone remember how good Lorescale Coatl looked until people actually started playing with it? The only exception would be elves, where it fits in quite well. There's the obvious tribal bonus, plus it acts as a fatty, which is exactly what elves wants. This might be what elves needs in order to reach a critical density. It could finally have something to even out it's board position against a goyf.

Arrowni

04-05-2010, 11:01 PM

xTrainx

04-05-2010, 11:06 PM

Barook

04-06-2010, 12:30 AM

If the thing was a 3/3 gaining +2/+2 we could talk, currently the guy is at his best when giving mana, maybe it can be used in Ziggurat survival decks or something twisted like that.

Is it me or RoE is just pretty much Kamigawa all over again? Legendary expensive creatures, check. High cost cards that are supposed to win the game but don't quite work, check. Transforming mecanics that are plagued with underwhelming creatures and effects, check.

Edit: Heck, even one of the chase rares is pretty much Gifts Ungiven.

Last time Japanese culture, this time Lovecraft.

Figure of Destiny is probably sitting in the corner now, crying. Why must all these levelers be so horribly expensive?

Lastest example (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=103906&d=1270526505)

:7::w::w: for 6/6 lifelink or :3::w::w: for Baneslayer Angel. Sure, you can split up the manacost, but the cost difference still seems ridiculous.

Considering that Emrakul is a prerelease card, how are they going to sell packs?

Aggro_zombies

04-06-2010, 12:39 AM

how are they going to sell packs?
By pandering directly to the target audience for this set:

http://www.rankopedia.com/CandidatePix/36730.gif

DukeDemonKn1ght

04-06-2010, 12:50 AM

Compared to anything I've seen so far with the leveling up creatures, Figure of Destiny is still basically a Harlem Globetrotter.

Granted, only about 1/3 of the set has been spoiled so far, but I'm underwhelmed to the Nth degree. It's basically a bunch of cool (somewhat derivative) flavor, being wasted on a bunch of terrible cards. I don't really think any of the viable ways to play the Eldrazi creatures in Legacy (Show and Tell, Vesuva/Cloudpost, etc) seem all that worthwhile.

It would make me smile immensely if Landstill starts running Polymorph and 1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn. (What-what, new NO/Progenitals on the block-- you heard it here first?...) But other than that, I can't even think of anything that I would seriously run in a Legacy deck thus far.

EDIT: Just to bring the best part of this post to the foreground: Polymorph. Emrakul, the Aeons Torn (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=103210&stc=1&d=1269384672)

jrsthethird

04-06-2010, 01:01 AM

Last time Japanese culture, this time Lovecraft.

Figure of Destiny is probably sitting in the corner now, crying. Why must all these levelers be so horribly expensive?

7WW for 6/6 lifelink or 3WW for Baneslayer Angel. Sure, you can split up the manacost, but the cost difference still seems ridiculous.

Would you pay :wr::wr::wr::wr::wr::wr::wr::wr::wr::wr::wr: for an 8/8 flying first strike? Seems excessive, doesn't it?

Broham

04-06-2010, 01:16 AM

Compared to anything I've seen so far with the leveling up creatures, Figure of Destiny is still basically a Harlem Globetrotter.

Granted, only about 1/3 of the set has been spoiled so far, but I'm underwhelmed to the Nth degree. It's basically a bunch of cool (somewhat derivative) flavor, being wasted on a bunch of terrible cards. I don't really think any of the viable ways to play the Eldrazi creatures in Legacy (Show and Tell, Vesuva/Cloudpost, etc) seem all that worthwhile.

It would make me smile immensely if Landstill starts running Polymorph and 1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn. (What-what, new NO/Progenitals on the block-- you heard it here first?...) But other than that, I can't even think of anything that I would seriously run in a Legacy deck thus far.

Side note here, if you run Painter's Servant, you can Natural Order Emrakul and the other eldrazi into play, plus Grindstone for the alternate win

Meekrab

04-06-2010, 01:23 AM

Side note here, if you run Painter's Servant, you can Natural Order Emrakul and the other eldrazi into play, plus Grindstone for the alternate win
I'm pretty sure that once you pay the cost of sacrificing the Servant, your Eldrazi aren't green anymore. Unless you mean you can sacrifice one of your manlands to Order out Emrakul. But why bother playing a 2GG spell when Polymorph is already in your color?

Broham

04-06-2010, 01:31 AM

I wasn't suggesting saccing the Painter's Servant. I was merely pointing out that there is another way to power out the Eldrazi creatures, that's all. And running Painter's Servant allows you to also play Grindstone, which could be fun, especially game two.

Vacrix

04-06-2010, 01:47 AM

I can't believe I'm saying this... but could Proteus Staff.dec make a come back? It was decent with DSC back in the day but these Eldrazi's smack for so much more.

DukeDemonKn1ght

04-06-2010, 01:48 AM

I think the most efficient way to play Eldrazi in green would be to put together an especially mana-ramping version of Elves combo and just hard-cast the mofo.

However, I really don't think it has as much potential as Polymorph. I could see either Landstill or Mono Blue Control putting that little trick to pretty good use, actually, since they're both decks that could pretty easily run zero creatures (or rather, 1 Emrakul and some man-lands). MUC would have to squeeze in some man-lands, which might fuck with the Back to Basics plan, but who knows it could be worth it. Polymorph into Emrakul seems like a natural fit for Landstill though. And it would only take up like 3-4 slots in the deck to have a win condition that basically outright wins once it hits play. Here's hoping it turns out to be awesome, gets adopted, and revitalizes some struggling control archetypes a little bit.

Meekrab

04-06-2010, 02:16 AM

Reading cards before posting at 1am is savage tech

DukeDemonKn1ght

04-06-2010, 02:21 AM

It'll also replace Natural Order/Progenitus in Counter-top type decks, because who wants to play a spell that requires two forests? Nobody. Ever.

It's a slim possibility, but it seems like your average Counter/Top deck would have to strain a lot in order to 1.) run no creatures other than Emrakul, and 2.) include at least 4 man-lands. Counter/Top loves them some Tarmogoyf and Dark Confidant, as well as other creatures, and I don't see too much reason to mess with that part of the formula. They tend to run like 12-16 critters.

Vacrix

04-06-2010, 02:58 AM

It'll also replace Natural Order/Progenitus in Counter-top type decks, because who wants to play a spell that requires two forests? Nobody. Ever.
You don't require 2 forests. Quite a few CB.dec variants play Wall of Roots to accelerate into it on T3. I dropped a game to it once while playing DnT.

rufus

04-06-2010, 07:04 AM

I can't believe I'm saying this... but could Proteus Staff.dec make a come back? It was decent with DSC back in the day but these Eldrazi's smack for so much more.

I don't think annihillator x is any more compelling than Progenitus. Windbrisk Heights in some kind of elf deck could lead to something tough. Summoning Trap doesn't give the hardcast benefit, but elves can easily afford to pay :g::g::4: for one of the big bad mama-jammas.

Barook

04-06-2010, 07:58 AM

Would you pay (lol image limit) for an 8/8 flying first strike? Seems excessive, doesn't it?
You could also get a 1/1 for :wr:, a 2/2 for 2x :wr: or a 4/4 for 5x :wr: on the way. The mana can also be invested at instant speed and doesn't take huge steps until you get at least some benefit out of it.

Transcendent Master, however, is a glorified, white Trained Armodon at Mythic Rare until you invest lots of mana to get an mediocre fatty for its cost.

Infinitium

04-06-2010, 08:04 AM

Emrakul better than Progenitus as a Polymorph target all right. Being able to attack into Glacial Chasm, Solitary Confinement and impending alpha strikes whilst enjoying protection from 90% of the spells that matters as well as being roughly as unchumpable is rock solid. As bonus perks it provides inherent protection versus millling strategies and can theoretically be hardcast (which also plays well with, say, Standstill).

rufus

04-06-2010, 10:07 AM

Transcendent Master, however, is a glorified, white Trained Armodon at Mythic Rare until you invest lots of mana to get an mediocre fatty for its cost.

Joraga Treespeaker seems like a joke - because more mana production is what you need when you've got 11 to spare.

Of the levelers so far, the most playable seems to be Lord of Shatterskull Pass at a marginal maybe for Dragon Stompy decks.

ScatmanX

04-06-2010, 12:28 PM

You could also get a 1/1 for :wr:, a 2/2 for 2x :wr: or a 4/4 for 5x :wr: on the way.
Transcendent Master, however, is a glorified, white Trained Armodon at Mythic Rare until you invest lots of mana to get an mediocre fatty for its cost.

So Figure is a glorified Tundra Wolfes, but worse, then a glorified Grizly Bears, but worse, then a glorified (insert a 5cc 4/4 creature here), then, well, you get the picture...

I think some Levelers will see play. The investiment isn't that great. We're just not used to cards like that.

And how is Transcendent Master a Trained Armodon, since it can attack turn 2?

Barook

04-06-2010, 12:55 PM

So Figure is a glorified Tundra Wolfes, but worse, then a glorified Grizly Bears, but worse, then a glorified (insert a 5cc 4/4 creature here), then, well, you get the picture...
Except Figure is all of this at once a reasonable costs for its upgrades.

I think some Levelers will see play. The investiment isn't that great. We're just not used to cards like that.

The most potent card out of the levelers so far is probably still Student of Warfare.

And how is Transcendent Master a Trained Armodon, since it can attack turn 2?
Have you actually read the cards?

Trained Armodon :1::g::g:
3/3

Transcendent Master (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=103906&stc=1&d=1270526495) :1::w::w:
3/3 (until you invest lots of mana)

Or were you talking about Student of Warfare?

ScatmanX

04-06-2010, 03:46 PM

Have you actually read the cards?

Or were you talking about Student of Warfare?

No sir, I had not. I was talking about Student of Warfare indeed.
Transcendent Master does look quite overcosted.

Malchar

04-06-2010, 04:32 PM

If level up were instant speed then it might have a chance. As it stands, it looks like a great way to waste a lot of mana.
Transcendent master is a 3/3 for 3 on turn 3. Turn 4, pay 4, now it's a 3/3 for 7 (total). Watch as I play a doom blade and destroy your 3/3 that cost you 7 mana. The funny thing is that even if it survives to become a 6/6 (lifelink) for 9, it's still not worth it.

DukeDemonKn1ght

04-06-2010, 04:52 PM

The funny thing is that even if it survives to become a 6/6 (lifelink) for 9, it's still not worth it.

This. Transcendent Master is utter garbage in any constructed format, just like it looks like 98% of the level up creatures will also be. This is going to be like a $0.50 mythic rare if I've ever seen one.

The take-home lesson is that flexibility doesn't really matter if none of the options are any good.

SpeedOfDark

04-06-2010, 04:55 PM

Although I have not taken an exceptional liking to any leveler card thus far, I thinkthat our judgements might be a bit premature.

In the same way that some cards look "amazing" on paper and end up being bad in practice, I think leveler is a good example of a mechanic that looks bad on paper, but might actually end up to be quite useful in practice. Its hard to get a good "feel" for how much extra mana you will have or how long a game might last just by thinking about it.

Also, I'm assuming they still haven't spoiled the best one(s).

:D

EDIT: Just to bring the best part of this post to the foreground: Polymorph. Emrakul, the Aeons Torn (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=103210&stc=1&d=1269384672)

I had a mostly-built mono-blue polyprog deck (or rather, proteusprog). And since emrakul is the prerelease promo... I think I will make the substitution :P

DukeDemonKn1ght

04-06-2010, 06:11 PM

Vacrix

04-06-2010, 06:16 PM

Also, I'm assuming they still haven't spoiled the best one(s).

On the contrary, it makes sense to spoil all the good stuff first, that way it entices people to buy a box or singles before the prices go up. The spoilers are a great way to get people excited, and force people to make good decisions about what they think will get good. Remember WoTC makes its money primarily from selling boxes.

What they might do is underpower the mechanic now, and make it better once its proven to be good or bad. It seems balanced in Standard. Hexmage takes off all the counters so I'm curious as to why they didn't make Leveler's more powerful. They might print something that doubles the counters, if something like that doesn't already exist.

Lothian

04-06-2010, 07:24 PM

Hexmage takes off all the counters so I'm curious as to why they didn't make Leveler's more powerful. They might print something that doubles the counters, if something like that doesn't already exist.

Hexmage against levellers would be a bit dumb. You sacrifice a card to remove counters that can be put back. Not the best of options, use terror instead..

I think the mechanic is not underpowered as such, in standard. But for sure, since Tarmo is a bit of a loser against AnT or Rea, don't try it out with a level-up creature. The level-up is way too mana intensive to get your guy StP for 1 stupid mana. Just not worth it...

On another point, Emrakul will possibly be the defining card of the set.
It will be tried in Legacy, with show and tell and polymorph at least(oath of druids unbanned ;-). Possibly the most powerful creature ever printed, making Lord of the Pit begging for mercy, what will be the best cards to fight against that monster?

There's Aether spellbomb, but that's very narrow.
The classic innocent blood.

Any other ideas?

Vacrix

04-06-2010, 07:34 PM

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=103932&d=1270595812

Translation:
Die Sanften auffressen (something like "kill the meek")
3BB - Instant - Rare
Destroy all creatures with converted mana cost 3 or less. They cannot be regenerated.
100/248 - Illus: Chippy

Instant Board sweeper? I think monoblack is going to love this shit guys. Very viable in legacy imo.

Arsenal

04-06-2010, 07:39 PM

Needs to cost 1 mana less. But it still looks like it'll be decent in Standard at least.

Vacrix

04-06-2010, 07:46 PM

Really? I think its viable in Legacy. You can play high CC stuff like Tombstalker and it makes it an instant speed, 1 sided WOG. Thats well worth the investment of 3BB when it literally kills everything in Zoo and Merfolk, while I think the only things in Gobos that dodge it are Siegegang and Ringleader, and Elves has a few guys that dodge it too. Either way, its going to clean out most of their team while hardly affecting yours, if you build the deck with this card in mind (ie. high cc creatures).

What other high CC creatures are there that could fit into a deck like this?

Barook

04-06-2010, 07:57 PM

It costs :1: more than Damnation, but has instant speed and can be more or less a one-sided WoG if used cleverly.

Overall, a great card, but the better question is what deck in Legacy could make use of it?

Apex

04-06-2010, 08:10 PM

Going from 4 mana to 5 mana is a pretty big deal in legacy. While there are a bunch of 4 mana playables like Humility and Moat, the most playable 5 mana card? Force of Will (jk, the most played 5 mana hardcastable spell is probably Arc-Slogger, and that's in Dragon Stompy, where they can generate the mana easily).

I don't think MBC or whatever will eschew Damnation for this (and do they really need a Damnation 5-8? I mean, we still have Mutilate), and this card probably won't see any play in legacy.

Though this will be pretty good in standard, killing KotR and Putrid Leeches and whatnot really nicely.

Aggro_zombies

04-06-2010, 08:12 PM

This may be interesting in a Rock-type deck interested in cheating large creatures into play. It kind of sucks to NO out Progenitus, swing, and then die because the other guy swung in with his entire team and then burned you out. This wipes his board so that you don't have to worry about lethal counterattacks when rumbling in with your hydra.

Vacrix

04-06-2010, 08:14 PM

>= 4CC Black creatures, search yields the following viable creatures:
Viable and Semi-Viable creatures:
Abyssal Persecutor
Shriekmaw
Tombstalker
Bane of the Living
Creakwood Liege
Blizzard Specter
Body Snatcher
Braid, Cabal Minion
Demi-god of Revenge
Grinning Demon
Korlash, Heir to Blackblade
Magus of the Abyss
Thrashing Wumpus
Vampire Noctornus

They actually don't look that great. Then again.. cards like Bloodghast and Nether Spirit look pretty nice as recurring creatures to hold a Jitte, while this spell blows the board.

jrsthethird

04-06-2010, 08:26 PM

I really hope it's called Kill the Meek. Such a blunt and awesome name.

Leave it to the Germans to make something sound raw and badass.

Vacrix

04-06-2010, 08:30 PM

I really hope it's called Kill the Meek. Such a blunt and awesome name.

Leave it to the Germans to make something sound raw and badass.

Unfortunately, it looks like they just changed the translation to Consume the Meek. Its not that bad.

kicks_422

04-06-2010, 08:38 PM

The German version still has DIE in it, so I guess that's still cool.

Barook

04-06-2010, 08:41 PM

Vacrix

04-06-2010, 08:48 PM

Nobody said you have to play shitty high CC creatures to abuse the card. You can still play stuff like manlands or Phyrexian Totem. The best part of the card is instant speed.

Hence the caveat at the end of the list. I didn't cover man lands because I figured it was self-evident that they were good with board sweepers.

Pastorofmuppets

04-06-2010, 09:04 PM

So am I the only one bothered that the level up creatures start at level 0? I mean, what RPG have you played where you start at level 0?
@ the big new Damnator: Damn, that's going right into Black Quinn.

morgan_coke

04-06-2010, 09:41 PM

Wow, Wizards decided to give control some love in this set. I can't believe you people aren't impressed with Consume the Meek. The deck it goes in is obviously Landstill-esque u/b control. I mean, you get to Wrath aggro ON THEIR TURN. What more are you wanting from a card? I mean seriously. Lets make a quick list of all the commonly played Legacy creatures that survive super-smother.

1. Siege-Gang Commander
2. Tombstalker
3. Goblin Ringleader
4. Progenitus
5. Iona
6. Loxodon Hierarch? Abyssal Persecutor? Rafiq of the Many? I mean, seriously, I'm reaching here at this point.

This is totally the kind of card controls been wanting for awhile now to help it become viable. Win. (yes, I know its 5 mana. its not like it won't be mixed with decent spot removal/early blockers/counters/what have you)

Vacrix

04-06-2010, 09:46 PM

So am I the only one bothered that the level up creatures start at level 0? I mean, what RPG have you played where you start at level 0?

That was discussed a few pages back. I agree. Its really dumb and its surely going to cause some confusion initially.

jrsthethird

04-06-2010, 09:56 PM

Level 0 is intuitive. It would be even more confusing having to cram more text on these cards to make the 'start at level 1' thing work. Just think about it, and remove yourself from the idea that you have to start at level 1. Think of them as charge counters or something.

And Abyssal Persecutor will see more play in the months coming up to GP Columbus once people realize how good he is. However, you don't always want him to survive your sweeper.

Don't forget Arc Slogger, Gathan Raiders, and Sower of Temptation.

n00bas4urus_r3x

04-06-2010, 10:12 PM

God damn that new sweeper is sexy. Soooo much better than Marsh Casualties in Block. Train Wreck will love this card. I really hope they have some decent targeted removal in the set though. Smother, Disfigure and Urge to Feed aren't going to cut it against all the fat butts in this set.

majikal

04-06-2010, 10:57 PM

Train Wreck will love this card.
If it weren't for the fact that it's an Instant, I'd disagree with you. As it stands, I still probably wouldn't want it over plain old Damnation. Five mana is just so much in this format...

MrShine

04-06-2010, 11:59 PM

Wow, I gotta say this looks pretty interesting.... Combined with Veteran Explorer, anyone? Sac the explorer, let them over extend... Although I guess this doesn't do anything that Damnation doesn't in this example :P

What I guess we should be asking ourselves is in what situations is having an instant sweeper going to be more desirable than a Damnation... The only thing I can think of ATM is vs haste dudes (ie Goblins), in which case it'd be a total blowout, as you'd get to drop a threat on your turn as well instead of allowing them to reload again.

Malchar

04-07-2010, 12:10 AM

Well, I like how it's an instant. That could be interesting. I still wonder whether it will really see play in legacy. Damnation is quite a bit better. I mean, the only realistic time that this would be better than Damnation would be if you have a Tombstalker (or other bomb), and you're still losing to weenies. Oh yea, and you need five land. Besides, it's garbage in the mirror match or if you're up against another fatty. Also, adding one mana cost is quite significant when the target is a weenie horde. It's likely that every turn counts, and turn five is usually too slow.

morgan_coke

04-07-2010, 12:36 AM

Situations new sweeper is better than Damnation:

Opponent has manlands.

Opponent has guys with haste.

Opponent has Aether Vial out.

You have enough life to take a hit and want to wait until the end step to tap out.

You want to save your counterspells and wrath them during their turn after they cast some dudes instead of countering said dudes.

Aggro_zombies

04-07-2010, 12:43 AM

Situations new sweeper is better than Damnation:

Opponent has manlands.
Fair enough, but Wasteland is an even better solution.

Opponent has guys with haste.
This is pretty much only applicable to Goblins, which - granted - is spiking in popularity.

Opponent has Aether Vial out.
This is generally only applicable to Goblins or Merfolk. The former can mitigate it somewhat with Wort or post-Wrath Matron into Ringleader into 3 or so men, and the latter has Force and Daze. Needing to shell out five mana for your sweeper makes Merfolk's mana denial plan more relevant as well.

You have enough life to take a hit and want to wait until the end step to tap out.
There is no good deck in Legacy that wants to do this for a sweeper. If you're waiting until the end step to tap, you're most likely tapping for Mystical Tutor into a Ritual or Ad Nauseum.

You want to save your counterspells and wrath them during their turn after they cast some dudes instead of countering said dudes.
Control is and will continue to be awful for the foreseeable future.

jrsthethird

04-07-2010, 12:51 AM

New cards:

White Wall of Blossoms. Same thing, word for word. Think Planar Chaos leftovers.

Tuktuk the Explorer
Legendary Creature - Goblin
1/1
Haste
When he is put into graveyard from battlefield, put a 5/5 colorless legendary Goblin Golem token into play named Tuktuk the Returned.

I got a new toy for legacy and a new toy for standard! I'm excited.

burigo

04-07-2010, 01:00 AM

Vacrix

04-07-2010, 01:03 AM

Tuktuk the Explorer
Legendary Creature - Goblin
1/1
Haste
When he is put into graveyard from battlefield, put a 5/5 colorless legendary Goblin Golem token into play named Tuktuk the Returned.

Here's the full card

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=103962&stc=1&d=1270614269

I don't think that this will see any play. The opponent can just let it through every time. Its good against board sweepers, and he's a good chumper, but meh I think goblins would much rather drop a lord with vial @ 3.

Jak

04-07-2010, 01:04 AM

The only place I see the Instant sweeper going is as a 1-of in a Cunning Wish board.

jrsthethird

04-07-2010, 01:14 AM

Here's the full card

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=103962&stc=1&d=1270614269

I don't think that this will see any play. The opponent can just let it through every time. Its good against board sweepers, and he's a good chumper, but meh I think goblins would much rather drop a lord with vial @ 3.

Swing, opponent swings back with 4/5 Goyf, cycle Incinerator to kill Tuktuk, all of a sudden Goyf is attacking into a 5/5. Only thing holding it back is the fact that it's an artifact creature and can be Pridemaged. But better to Pridemage a dude than a Vial.

Jak

04-07-2010, 01:15 AM

Swing, opponent swings back with 4/5 Goyf, cycle Incinerator to kill Tuktuk, all of a sudden Goyf is attacking into a 5/5. Only thing holding it back is the fact that it's an artifact creature and can be Pridemaged. But better to Pridemage a dude than a Vial.

It costs three in a deck already overflowing at that slot. It is also only a 1/1 and the only way to make it decent is with those tricks.

Broham

04-07-2010, 01:47 AM

Red Legends are all about defense right now; Kazuul, Tyrant of the Cliffs, lol where is the color pie?

Malchar

04-07-2010, 03:22 AM

It costs three in a deck already overflowing at that slot. It is also only a 1/1 and the only way to make it decent is with those tricks.

This card actually gives goblins something that it needs, for once. It completely levels the playing field against tarmogoyf. The smartest play would be to leave it as a blocker while you build up an alpha strike of other goblins. The only problem is that it's legendary. This is the first card I'll actually be picking up from this set.

Antonius

04-07-2010, 04:41 AM

i know prospector and sharpshooter aren't usually played anymore, but they're still my favorite goblins. and they're pretty good with this dude

thorin_the_king

04-07-2010, 05:16 AM

just play 2 of these and let them die, ala flagstones of trokair style...

Opterown

04-07-2010, 05:17 AM

just play 2 of these and let them die, ala flagstones of trokair style...

Both tokens are also legendary, so the tokens also go poof. :X

thorin_the_king

04-07-2010, 05:35 AM

reading is tech, sorry guys :)

Skeggi

04-07-2010, 05:52 AM

Put them into play, let them die, triggers on the stack, now use Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir to cast Sharuum the Hegemon to bring back Mirror Gallery you've put into your graveyard the previous turn using Wild Mongrel. And presto! You've got two 5/5 Gollems!

ChillerKiller0815

04-07-2010, 07:11 AM

Tuktuk could still be a 2-of sb card alongside cabal therapy in Rb-builds, if you play the mogg war marshal main. As already pointed out cards like skirk prospector, Sharpshooter or goblin Sledder might find its way into the deck again by taking the Goblins-Deck from an Lackey dependend route to an more swarmbased route.
Just my 0.02 $

jrsthethird

04-07-2010, 07:20 AM

It costs three in a deck already overflowing at that slot. It is also only a 1/1 and the only way to make it decent is with those tricks.

You can run Frogtosser Banneret instead of Warchief and have less clutter at 3cc.

Kuma

04-07-2010, 11:03 AM

Tuktuk is probably better in Dragon Stompy than in Goblins, but I'm not sure it's an improvement over Taurean Mauler.

rufus

04-07-2010, 03:28 PM

Tuktuk is probably better in Dragon Stompy than in Goblins, but I'm not sure it's an improvement over Taurean Mauler.

Seems like he'd be better in some kind of Pox or Stax deck. Makes me wonder if they'll ever print cards with "you may not sacrifice this".

Skeggi

04-07-2010, 03:46 PM

Lol. Dare I say "Perhaps in a Stax shell?" :tongue:

Edit; oh bah it has been mentioned. But he was actually serious I guess :wink:

socialite

04-07-2010, 04:07 PM

I haven't bothered to read the previous posts in this thread (beyond the first two pages) out of pure spite for this horrendous and awful set.

From what has been spoiled this whole set looks to be chock full of win-more and garbage.

How many variations of Timmy "Win The Game" cards do we need?

Fucking yawn.

Thoughts? Did I miss anything decent so far?

Skeggi

04-07-2010, 04:17 PM

Thoughts? Did I miss anything decent so far?
Next to the Eldrazi cards? There's a white Wall of Blossoms and there's this guy:

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=103733&stc=1&d=1270181048

May be 'Zooable', but I'm not sure, it's still alot of mana you need in the early turns.

DukeDemonKn1ght

04-07-2010, 04:39 PM

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=103733&stc=1&d=1270181048

I think Zoo isn't even remotely interested in this dude. I think he'll pop up in some White Weenie decks, maybe Death and Taxes, but I really don't think he's all that great. I wouldn't want to start leveling him up until I had a little more board presence than just my 1/1 dork, and wasting the extra :w::w: on him is basically like putting your pants down for him to eat removal and waste your tempo (assuming you could have done something else useful with that mana, and if not it's probably late enough in the game that Student of Warfare has been sitting there pinging for 1 and looking mighty unimpressive.)

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=103962&stc=1&d=1270614269

As far as this dude, he seems pretty ok in a Recurring Nightmare (Edit: fixed, thanks Skeggi) deck, I'm surprised no one seems to have mentioned this. More of a natural fit than with Dragon Stompy or Goblins, methinks.

Skeggi

04-07-2010, 04:50 PM

Why Survival of the Fittest? Don't you mean that other Exodus rare, Recurring Nightmare?

DukeDemonKn1ght

04-07-2010, 04:56 PM

Why Survival of the Fittest? Don't you mean that other Exodus rare, Recurring Nightmare?

Lol. Oops. Correct you are sir.

Malchar

04-07-2010, 05:23 PM

The problem with Taurean Mauler is that if the opponent plays a goyf, he can proceed to win the game without having to play any other spells, so the mauler never gets bigger. With Tuktuk, the opponent won't even be able to attack you without "pumping" the Tuktuk.

DrJones

04-07-2010, 05:41 PM

TukTuk is a lot like Rukh Egg except that it doesn't combo with City in a Bottle. Well, Rukh Egg no longer works with City in a bottle, but some time ago it was a pretty strong strategy... in AN drafts.

Lothian

04-07-2010, 06:58 PM

in AN drafts.

WoW

That's a long way Dude. Hope FOW hasn't spoilt your party ;-)

Tuktuk would be great if he was from Thailand and non-legendary (token).
In Khao San Road, he would get you in the sack with a gorgeous girl for sure !

Malchar

04-07-2010, 07:26 PM

Goblins would probably be happy to use Rukh Egg, the key here is that Tuktuk is a goblin.

rufus

04-07-2010, 07:59 PM

Goblins would probably be happy to use Rukh Egg, the key here is that Tuktuk is a goblin.

Combow with Warren Weirding?

dahcmai

04-07-2010, 10:14 PM

It's kind of sad in a way when TukTuk is the best legacy playable we've seen so far. lol This might be Prophesy II for us.

Vacrix

04-08-2010, 12:20 AM

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=103988&d=1270699331

Easily the most attractive card in the set so far.

EDIT:

This one was also just spoiled.

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=103987&d=1270699305

It costs too much to be broken in Legacy, and the ability is meh..

DukeDemonKn1ght

04-08-2010, 12:22 AM

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=103988&d=1270699331

Easily the most attractive card in the set so far.

That is kinda dope... Elves maybe?

Vacrix

04-08-2010, 12:23 AM

I was thinking Survival of the Fittest. Chain them together to get them in the yard, and then just cast 2 small dudes.

EDIT:
I'll be picked up a playset either way. Badass art.

Humphrey

04-08-2010, 12:29 AM

A really useful card for the actual DTB is not spoiled yet, but

I will try All is Dust in colorless Staxx
Consume the meek could be playable in a UB Landstill Build
Khalni Hydra looks playable too - somewhere xD
Emrakul is to big to ignore him..

DukeDemonKn1ght

04-08-2010, 12:39 AM

In other words, are they really reprinting fucking Glory Seeker????? Suck Satan's cock. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6D90lJ2RJg)

DrJones

04-08-2010, 06:06 AM

Vengevine wants to befriend Wild Mongrel and Basking Rootwalla.

eq.firemind

04-08-2010, 06:14 AM

Vengevine wants to befriend Wild Mongrel and Basking Rootwalla.
Replace Wild Mongrel with Survival of the Fittest and it'll be ok.

DrJones

04-08-2010, 06:20 AM

Replace Wild Mongrel with Survival of the Fittest and it'll be ok.Well, I've always played Wild Mongrel alongside with Survival of the Fittest in Madness.

Barook

04-08-2010, 07:22 AM

In other words, are they really reprinting fucking Glory Seeker????? Suck Satan's cock. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6D90lJ2RJg)

It's even worse because they reprint it along with Knight of Cliffhaven, which is a Glory Seeker with the level up mechanic. Utterly pointless and basically customer trolling. Or to quote Maro's article from Monday:

The first trick to getting out large creatures is making the game last to the point where you can cast them. This is obviously a big shift from Zendikar and Worldwake, one that is important to understand when you sit down to play Rise of the Eldrazi. These games (I'm talking Limited here) are going to go longer. A card like Glory Seeker (:1::w: for a 2/2) that would be a reasonable attacker in most Limited formats is significantly weaker in this format.

Seriously, fuck that.

On another note: Vengevine looks interesting.

Skeggi

04-08-2010, 07:54 AM

Well, I've always played Wild Mongrel alongside with Survival of the Fittest in Madness.

Perhaps you would like to contribute your ideas here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?17115-Surviving-Madness&p=445426).

jrsthethird

04-08-2010, 08:46 AM

It's even worse because they reprint it along with Knight of Cliffhaven, which is a Glory Seeker with the level up mechanic. Utterly pointless and basically customer trolling. Or to quote Maro's article from Monday:

So MTG Salvation lists the Orb as the source. The words "Glory" and "Seeker" can appear in card names but not together. What if Barren Glory and Seeker of Skybreak were reprinted together in a set? Would you look at an Orb search and assume that they're reprinting Glory Seeker just because the two words showed up?

There's no reason for them to print Glory Seeker, because it's strictly worse than another card in the same set. People are just getting hyped up over the Orb.

Demystify is a different case. How many times would you expect to see the word 'demystify'? Not often.

Barook

04-08-2010, 08:55 AM

So MTG Salvation lists the Orb as the source. The words "Glory" and "Seeker" can appear in card names but not together. What if Barren Glory and Seeker of Skybreak were reprinted together in a set? Would you look at an Orb search and assume that they're reprinting Glory Seeker just because the two words showed up?

There's no reason for them to print Glory Seeker, because it's strictly worse than another card in the same set. People are just getting hyped up over the Orb.
It was confirmed by Captain Black (or whatever his name is) who is from WotC and spoiled and still spoils a lot of stuff.

Nekrataal

04-08-2010, 09:17 AM

Vengevine seems playable in Mono G Chalice Aggro.

Arrowni

04-08-2010, 09:45 AM

Vengevine + Survival + Rootwalla is a rather cheap way to put it into play, with extra mana you can put even several Vengevines into play.

whienot

04-08-2010, 03:39 PM

Not of this World :7:
Tribal Instant - Eldrazi
Uncommon

Counter target spell or ability that targets a permanent you control.

Not of this World costs :7: less to cast if it targets a spell or ability that targets a creature you control with power greater than or equal to 7.

Artist: Izzy
#8/248

Hahaha! Free counters for my Eldrazi!

If this is real, that's another hearty laugh for my Show & Telldrazi deck.

walkerdog

04-08-2010, 03:45 PM

Free counters to protect iona?!?!?

AngryTroll

04-08-2010, 04:30 PM

Free counters to protect iona?!?!?

Iona protects herself-you really want free counters to protect the Entombs or the Reanimation effects. It's still cool...but I doubt it'll see any Legacy play.

dahcmai

04-08-2010, 06:40 PM

I wouldn't be so sure about that. I saw that card and thought about it for a bit. I would actually like a card that protects my guys that normally can be swords. I wouldn't bitch about protecting my Sphinx of Lifelink and shit if I only had to ditch this for it. It's really narrow I will admit, but I think I could find room in a board for this, especially for decks that think they are all sneaky and can play Vendetta or some shit to kill my Iona's post board. i will be picking up 2. It's worth that.

Nihil Credo

04-08-2010, 08:27 PM

I wouldn't bitch about protecting my Sphinx of Lifelink and shit if I only had to ditch this for it.
The syntax of your sentence makes it slightly ambiguous, but: the card can't be played for free to protect Sphinx, which is only a 6-power.

ktkenshinx

04-09-2010, 12:28 AM

http://www.wizards.com/mtg/images/tcg/products/riseoftheeldrazi/mmbe7rmg3r_EN.jpg

This is an excellent card. Period. The vast, vast majority of playable cards in Legacy, with the sole exception of Force of Will, are discarded by this spectacular discard spell. This is more than just the budget version of Thoughtseize. Inquisition does not involve the nasty life loss, a frequent problem that Thoughtseize encounters against decks like Zoo. That said, this is definitely an excellent budget card for the cost-minded Legacy player.

-ktkenshinx-

Vacrix

04-09-2010, 12:30 AM

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=104046&d=1270786189

When you use spells to protect it or clear the way so it connects, you will draw more cards. This guy is nuts. You refill your hand every time it connects so that you can clear the way again to get it to connect again, and protect it at the same time. I don't know where it could be played, but surely this is the best card we've seen so far.

kicks_422

04-09-2010, 12:31 AM

Yup, Inquisition's a great card. Especially if you run it in a deck that aims to not let the opponent get to 4 mana or Turn 4.

EDIT: Spellblade looks really nice as well. U/R Storm?

Vacrix

04-09-2010, 12:33 AM

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=104047&d=1270787234

Probably not Legacy playable, but I like the design.

Vacrix

04-09-2010, 12:41 AM

Spellblade looks really nice as well. U/R Storm?

Snap. Thats a sick idea. I automatically thought it would be sick in control. Shit. Its going to be sick in combo, if its playable. I'd imagine it falls into the 'danger of cool things' category.

Goaswerfraiejen

04-09-2010, 12:41 AM

Yay, Inquisition! Now that's a decent move on Wizards' part.

jrsthethird

04-09-2010, 12:44 AM