[Premium Article] Visiting Wizards, Reprints and the Reserved List [Archive]

Smmenen

03-01-2010, 07:49 PM

Someone could please cross-post this to SCG for me, but if I were Wizards, here's how I would message the abolition of the Reserved List (and I should have put this in the article):

The people who made Magic had no idea how popular the game would be. Early expansions sold out instantly, and demand far outstripped production. There weren't enough early cards to satisfy players or collectors. This company reprinted a number of early cards in Chronicles and Fourth edition to give folks access to some of these difficult-to-find cards. They tried to a balance the desire to maintain collectibility by only reprinting some cards. However, after the printing of Chronicles and Fourth Edition, it became clear that players were deeply concerned about the value of the cards they had been collecting, and the way in which reprints at that time devalued those collectibles.

In 1996, the good folks who made Magic cared about the young game and its long-term health. They created the Reserved List as a way of keeping players in the game. It was a promise not to reprint cards. Due to a number of concerns, we've modified the Reserved List several times. We stopped adding cards to the reserved list in the late 1990s. We removed all of the uncommons and rares from the list. In all that time, we've kept the word made by folks who no longer work for this company.

Over time, it became clear that the Reserved List didn't actually serve the purposes for which it was created. We discovered that there were other natural constraints on reprints besides the Reserved List. Our experience in designing sets taught us the need to keep a balanced, fun, and interactive Standard format. Reprints of certain overpowered out of print cards like Mana Drain for Standard are out of the question. As we famously said, R&D would have to be hit by a bus before we'd reprint Mana Drain, despite the fact that we could. The fact that we could print cards didn't mean that we would or would even want to.

Although Magic is and will always be a collectible card game, it became clear that with the exception of cards printed from exceptionally low print-runs, playability in formats like Standard are the chief driver of card values. The promise to not reprint cards did little to prevent cards from falling in price. In fact, just the opposite. Reprints of older cards often caused older card prices to spike, as players sought out copies of those cards. Older cards that see little play, precisely because they are of no use to modern players, have often fallen quite sharply in value.

Then, we discovered that earlier editions of cards that have been reprtined kept their value, regardless of the number of reprints. It's not just functionality in relevant formats that creates value, but usefulness combined with certain edition. Numerous reprints on cards like Wrath of God and Birds of Paradise have done little to devalue the earliest printings of these cards. And more recent printings on other cards like Psionic Blast demonstrated the same thing.

But we kept the Reserved List around to keep a promise made by a young company with an uncertain future.

Then, we discovered that players and collectors alike enjoy products like duel decks, deck series, and special premium sets like From the Vault. These special products are great for getting new players involved the game and targeted to various customer niches. Our Slivers Deck Series suffered greatly from not featuring Sliver Queen. We realized that, more and more, the Reserved List was an impediment to common sense reprints that would neither devalue earlier printings nor harm the game.

The promise behind the Reserved List has always been the same: do what is best for the long-term health of the game. We promised not to reprint certain cards to give Magic customers confidence that their cards would not devalue. And, despite having not made that promise for over a decade on any new cards, it has not diminished the collectibility of sets printed since Urza's Block. Magic has not suffered for not having new cards added to the Reserved List. In fact, it's continued to grow. The fact that certain cards can be reprinted has not prevented them from acquiring tremendous value. Cards like Imperial Seal and Tarmogoyf are not on the Reserved List, but they haven't seem to suffer for it.

For these reasons, we are hereby abolishing the Reserved List, effective immediately. Our goal remains the same as the goal of the people who created the Reserved List: do what is best for the long-term health of the game. Magic is at a place where The Reserved List no longer accomplishes that purpose. In fact, it does exactly the opposite. We recognize that Legacy is one of our most popular formats. Legacy draws upon almost every card ever printed, and yet its generated our largest tourament attendance ever. While we have no immediate intention to reprint certain Legacy cards, we do recognize that reprints of certain Legacy staples might be necessary at some point. If it is, we will consider doing whatever is best for the game of Magic.

A big dose of common sense is called for. Just because we can reprint certain cards doesn't mean we will, as the fact that we haven't printed Mana Drain thus far demonstrates. And just because we reprint cards, doesn't mean it will cause older versions to lose value or become less collectible. We will always balance concerns that motivated the Reserved List against other needs. 12 years of common sense reprinting should demonstrate that we are sensitive to those concerns.

Collectors and players alike should have faith that the abolition of the Reserved List does not mean that we will radically harm your collection. We are simply freeing this company to do whatever it is that is ultimately in the best interest of this company's long-term future. 17 years of Magic has taught us many things. We are better at designing cards, sets, and formats than ever before. We have more experience and skill. We've designed products for all audiences, But the most important lesson in that time is that this game will continue to evolve and grow in unexpected ways. The folks who created the Reserved List did what they felt was in the best interest of the long-term health of the game. Our purpose is the same. We currently have no plans to reprint cards on the Reserved list other than in ways that the Reserved List premium exception permitted. At the same time, we are humble in our recognition that we do not know what the future may hold. Our brand and our product is stronger than ever. We have no intention of jeopardizing that. We want you to play Magic for decades to come. That means creating the best collectible card game product we possibly can for repeated enjoyment. That certainly doesn't mean reprinting Ancestral Recall for Standard.

We considered many possible amendments to the Reserved List, but we feel that the Reserved List, in toto, is fundamentally flawed. Continuing to keep any part of it unnecessarily hampers the options of this company in the future. While we could wait until that day when the Reserved List truly harms our product, we feel that abolishing the Reserved List now is the most fair way of dealing with it rather than wait until that distant day.

We value our promise to you, and although we are doing away with the Reserved List, our more important promise is and will always be the promise to make the best product we can and manage that product for the long-term health of the game. Do not mistake our motives here today: we are not abolishing the Reserved List because magic is dying or as a ploy to make FTV: Power for some quick cash. On the contrary, our actions here are informed and motivated by a commitment to the long-term health of this game. Magic is growing far beyond what its creators could have imagined, let alone what we imagined two years ago. We have a duty to the untold millions of players who will some day enjoy this game as much as we owe a duty to you. We strongly believe that abolishing the Reserved List serves them and you best.

We know that some of you may be unhappy with this decision. We understand your concern that future reprints may jeapordize the value of your cards, which some of you view as investments. To keep that end of our bargain, we will offer a one-time exchange program for cards that are currently on the Reserved List. Using the average market value of cards currently on the Reserved List over the last six months prior to this announcement, we will provide an exchange or rebate program. You can send your cards to a special address, and we will exchange any card o the Reserved List at market value, and send you a check for the cards, or we will send you retail product equal to the value of the cards you mailed to us, your preference. This program will be available to anyone who wishes to take part until August 31, 2010.

DrJones

03-01-2010, 08:42 PM

That really sounds like an official announcement. Because I can't access to premium content, I think it would be wise to clearly clarify after your post that it's something you have written yourself (even though you say it at the beginning). I would love to hear something like that from WotC because the Reserved List has been ruining sets for years, something I quickly realized when I tried to design a core set and discovered stupid things like being unable to balance white because the good cards were in the reserved list (tenth edition), or green not having any simple and playable answer against black or blue decks (sixth edition).

Forbiddian

03-01-2010, 09:46 PM

FoolofaTook

03-01-2010, 10:15 PM

I think it would be very tough for them to make that announcement and manage the economic consequences. I own about $12k worth of cards on the reserve list at this point. I never play Vintage. I'd turn in $5k worth of cards without thinking too hard about it. Then I have extra playsets of most of the duals, so that's another$2k give or take. I'd probably turn those in. I'd sell my Juzams (another $600 - and a strong argument play value is not all that is propping prices at this point), and my Abysses ($240) and probably my Moats ($450). The Tabernacle at Pendrall Vale? Well it's through the roof and has been for months.

I'd probably wind up with $9k in the end, a very good return on the investments I made from 1993 to 1996. I'd do this just because it made sense. I'm never going to play those cards competitively in Legacy and I don't play Vintage. I think other people would also turn in more cards than WotC expected them too, it's tough times out there at the moment.

I don't know that WotC could absorb all of the requests and still be happy with the bottom line. And I don't think they'd do this for Legacy. There's no point for them economically unless they think Standard is in decline.

Smmenen

03-01-2010, 10:18 PM

The last bit seems awfully expensive to them, especially since they printed the sold the card stock originally at a MUCH lower value.

If they abolish the reserve list without shelling out a ton of money, they shouldn't abolish the reserve list.

i dunno you really think so?

According to the spreadsheet in my article, there are 21 cards on the reserved list that are worth more than $50, and 34 more than are over $20. How many of those are going to be returned to Wizards? I would wager not very many. The rest of the reseved list is low dollar amounts. In fact, teh greater bulk of it is (as you can see from my article). People returning $1 cards doesn't actually sound like wizards would be losing money. Or, they could say that they'll only accept cards that are worth more than $10, or something, which limits returns to 74 cards or 13% of the list. I imagine that most people probably woudn't return cards.

Also, if they were, Wizards could also just repack them, like they did with Zendikar.

I don't see Wizards having to payout that much money if they implemented my suggestion.

Forbiddian

03-01-2010, 11:13 PM

mchainmail

03-01-2010, 11:55 PM

The question is if the negligible PR gains will outweigh the straight monetary cost of people like Foolofatook and Forbiddian. Even if it only costs them $200,000 I doubt that the positive PR will let them sell an extra 1,000,000 packs to make up the loss.

They have ONLY PR to gain and money to lose, so the calculation shouldn't be that difficult. Of course, we could drop our collections off at StarCityGames, but the question for the players is: who is the highest bidder? Your policy seems to imply that Wizards would have to be (since the reprint presumably crashed prices so much).

Also, if they could gain the new cards for cheaper, I would gladly "cash out" my old set for new sets. I don't give a fuck what my cards look like (I use 2 JvC Dazes and one Nemesis Daze). I assume there are a lot of players in my boat who would sell off their Trops/Volcanics/Tundras/other Duals and rebuy the new ones if there's ever a significant price gap. Which means Wizards is stuck with thousands of extra dual lands with no market to purchase them except at a lower market value.

I think they're better off trying to reprint the cards in such a way that the prices wouldn't crash.

Half the point of doing it is for wizards to say "we won't make things crash" because they have a stake in it.

Smmenen

03-02-2010, 12:13 AM

The question is if the negligible PR gains will outweigh the straight monetary cost of people like Foolofatook and Forbiddian. Even if it only costs them $200,000 I doubt that the positive PR will let them sell an extra 1,000,000 packs to make up the loss.

They have ONLY PR to gain and money to lose, so the calculation shouldn't be that difficult. Of course, we could drop our collections off at StarCityGames, but the question for the players is: who is the highest bidder? Your policy seems to imply that Wizards would have to be (since the reprint presumably crashed prices so much).

Also, if they could gain the new cards for cheaper, I would gladly "cash out" my old set for new sets. I don't give a fuck what my cards look like (I use 2 JvC Dazes and one Nemesis Daze). I assume there are a lot of players in my boat who would sell off their Trops/Volcanics/Tundras/other Duals and rebuy the new ones if there's ever a significant price gap. Which means Wizards is stuck with thousands of extra dual lands with no market to purchase them except at a lower market value.

I think they're better off trying to reprint the cards in such a way that the prices wouldn't crash.

Dude:

Daze is not in the Reserved List. Probably only a smal fraction of your collection is on the reserved list.

Only cards card the reserved list would be eligible for redemption.

Also, I specifically said in the post tht prices would be calculated from the average of the six months previous to the announcement.

I explicitly stated that NO reprints would occur in the near future, and that the redemption program would only exist until a specified end date 6 months or so in the future from this announcement.

Also, I was very clear that what they are trying to achieve is not PR, but to not hamper or constrain the options of future WOTC employees.

Bardo

03-02-2010, 12:20 AM

Someone could please cross-post this to SCG for me, but if I were Wizards, here's how I would message the abolition of the Reserved List (and I should have put this in the article)
Sounds like ban evasion to me (albeit through a third-party). Can't you add an addendum to this article in the next one you run?

Clark Kant

03-02-2010, 01:32 AM

Sounds like ban evasion to me (albeit through a third-party).

Wait, Smmenen is banned from SCG forums :eek:

How the hell does that happen. I mean he's their star writer for god's sake.

Back on topic, I completely agree with you Smmenen.

I don't think such a redemption program is neccesary, and even if it was, it would not cost Wizards much to do at all.

The fact is, when you're talking about the average price over the past six months, prices have exploded the past six months. So players would actually be better off selling their cards on ebay rather than shipping them off to WOTC.

Prices won't fall when the announcement is made. They might fall slightly when the cards get reprinted. But even that is doubtful because the fact is, if cards get reprinted especially as mythic rares for the pricy cards, they will hold their value or even appreciate in value thru out their stay in standard. Look at the price of Baneslayer Angel to see how much a popular standard card goes for.

It's not until the cards leave standard that the prices will fall back down. That gives collectors plenty of time to cash out.

Or WOTC can turn right around and sell the redeemed cards on ebay and make back their full money and then some.

jrsthethird

03-02-2010, 01:38 AM

Wizards selling cards on ebay is shady and would be absolutely terrible PR. It goes completely against anything they stand for. What's next then? Printing up some fresh Black Lotuses, playing with them without sleeves for a month or so, and then selling them on ebay for a quick dime?

FoolofaTook

03-02-2010, 02:22 AM

majikal

03-02-2010, 02:33 AM

The easiest thing for WotC to do is just keep on doing what they've been doing: support Standard heavily, support Extended, Legacy and Vintage with usable cards in the new sets and keep on trucking. We just had a Legacy GP with 2000+ people during an exploding secondary market. Nothing's broken here. WotC doesn't need to fix anything.
This is not indicative of the health of the market. How many of these players already owned their cards? How many of them borrowed from someone who already owned their cards? How many of them bought just before the price spikes? Perhaps so many players are the reason for the market explosion. It can only go up from here, so yes, WotC does need to fix something. This is just a warning sign of things to come.

Forbiddian

03-02-2010, 03:13 AM

Dude:

Daze is not in the Reserved List. Probably only a smal fraction of your collection is on the reserved list.

Only cards card the reserved list would be eligible for redemption.

Wait, when did I say that Daze was on the reserved list? I even said I'd only cash out my dual lands. Are dual lands not on the reserved list?

Dishonest debating technique #1: Glance through the other guy's post and take everything out of context.

After reading through your cheese again, I don't think you're understanding anything that I'm saying, so I'll try again:

The PR stunt is an empty promise. Wizards doesn't actually want to buy up any extra product, doing so is a strict money sink, and the people who would lose to the reserve list cancellation are the people who invest in old magic cards and want to see prices continue to increase. If you offer to buy them up at CMV, you do nothing to appease these people, since you still caused a lot of inconvenience and butchered their longterm investment. I don't think very many people give a shit about the reserve list, but the people that do would be the people investing for the long haul, and they'll be unhappy to send their most valuable stuff in (especially if it breaks up sets or w/e, I don't know, these are collectors).

You can't buy people off by just paying CMV, not to mention the inconvenience. If the problem is just bribing current WotC employees, then you can do it a lot cheaper with a non-public release on this deal.

Cancelling the reserve list will step on some toes, the question up to Wizards is if it's worth it or not, but implementing some cash back deal gets them nothing and costs them significantly. I'm sure they'll do the market research for this one, but I really doubt it'll show people are happy with CMV for a currently increasing investment.

Smmenen

03-02-2010, 03:22 AM

Wait, when did I say that Daze was on the reserved list? I even said I'd only cash out my dual lands. Are dual lands not on the reserved list?

Dishonest debating technique #1: Glance through the other guy's post and take everything out of context.

isn't that exactly what you did with my post? Talking about how the redemption program would have jacked prices because of the program itself, when it's clear I structured it to overcome that challenge. Mentioning dual land reprints and price crashes, when I specifically excluded the possibility of dual land reprints in the near term, and ensured that any such reprints would be outside of the redemption program date, etc. And so on.

Oh, and Magic cards are not investments. They hold value, but that doesn't make them investments.

Forbiddian

03-02-2010, 03:44 AM

Oh, and Magic cards are not investments. They hold value, but that doesn't make them investments.

Glad I read this gem before I logged off.

Please take an economics class or two before you suggest a financial plan for Wizards. Or just stick to writing about Legacy, even better.

Smmenen

03-02-2010, 03:47 AM

Glad I read this gem before I logged off.

Please take an economics class or two before you suggest a financial plan for Wizards. Or just stick to writing about Legacy, even better.

I have a degree in summa cum laude in economics, actually. Bonds, CDs, Real Property, Stocks -- those are investments. Anyone who 'invests' in magic should rethink their financial position.

Blitzbold

03-02-2010, 04:36 AM

I posted this on SCG's forums, but might as well c/p it over here:

One of the best articles you wrote since some time. I was actually looking forward on reading something like this after Ben Bleiweis talked about your meeting at Wizards.

I definitely fall into the (2) category if not even (1). I've been playing MtG since The Dark was the most recent expansion (with some breaks, though), but wasn't interested in all the high power cards back then. However, about half of my duals ar black bordered now, I love the Eternal formats and am able to play about 95% of all the decks Vintage or Legacy has to offer - as long as there aren't any Workshops involved. ;-)

But even with a collection built for such a long time I wouldn't mind if Wizards gave up on the reserve list. I can still remember the days when Chronicles came out and we opened broken stuff like Carrrion Ants, Nicol Bolas and so on. Even though Legends was in print not long before that, most of that cards were mere mythics (no punt intended) and were very hard to come by over here in Germany. So Chronicles made happy players out of us because suddenly we were able to play with all the cards we only knew from The Duelist or something like that.

It's a pity that Vintage seems to have retired over here, especially in Northern or Eastern Germany. There are quite a lot of Legacy players to be found, but the entry barrier for Vintage ist just too high. Because most players I know like to participate in sanctioned tournaments, proxies wouldn't be a solution.

Long story short, even though I fall into that 5% of players from your (1) and (2) category, I'd highly appreiciate the abolishment of the reserved list just for the health and growth of both Vintage and Legacy.

yawg07

03-02-2010, 06:06 AM

I have a degree in summa cum laude in economics, actually. Bonds, CDs, Real Property, Stocks -- those are investments. Anyone who 'invests' in magic should rethink their financial position.

Haha ZING!
I totally agree with this statement.
I have friends with really large pimped out collections, and could make a ton of cash if they sold them. Hello, JOE GEORGE!? I play with his cards all the time, and he can build everything in the format pimped out.
They aren't INVESTING in the cards, though, they just love the game. If MTG tanked, they'd go on with their normal lives.

paK0

03-02-2010, 08:53 AM

They aren't INVESTING in the cards, though, they just love the game. If MTG tanked, they'd go on with their normal lives.

This

My Gamecube holds a value as well, but I did buy it to kill time/have fun not to get money out of it. I assume this is true for 99%(probably even more) of the magic players. Now that I got it I couldn't care less weather my Tundraplayset it worth 10$ or 100$. It is doing what it is suppoded to do, helping me to play a game that I have fun playing.

undone

03-02-2010, 09:11 AM

I don't understand people saying magic isn't an investment. You can resell the cards without much trouble (well expensive cards anyway) and most people who quit don't just give the cards they paid money for away. Some Magic cards are like a car that appreciates in value and other depreciate. I personally try to avoid cards that become worthless post standard rotation and cards that will crash after standard rotation. The reason for this is simple. I don't want the value of my collection to crash. It is a lot easier to play the game when you have a bigger better collection and can build more decks, the easiest way to do this is buy smart instead of buying everything or buying a standard deck. The problem now will be that if they decided to abolish the reserved list and not just work around it VIA judge promos or whatever then it WILL cause problems in the end people quitting. Besides consider the following

1) We have had record turnouts and ever increasing attendance at EVERY Legacy GP and the SCG 5Ks

2) Legacy is a healthy format it is varied and most T8s represent combo, aggro, aggro control (Or aggro combo control), and sometimes even control.

3) Wizards has no financial interest in the secondary market unless it hampers attendance to GPs/PTs/PTQs The only time this happens is when the format's cost goes significantly up.

jrsthethird

03-02-2010, 09:13 AM

Do what I do. Sell your Standard staples a couple months pre-rotation. Come June or so, my Baneslayers are hitting ebay and I'm switching to a deck that is mostly Zendikar block for the time being.

Kojiro

03-02-2010, 09:56 AM

Oh, and Magic cards are not investments. They hold value, but that doesn't make them investments.For the past 10 years I've been buying and selling Magic cards profitably. It sure as hell beats the crap out of my 401k or IRA which literally sit there and lose value. Just in the last year alone, I've profited more off Magic than the entire value of my 401K @ 3% contribution with 75% match for THREE YEARS.

Watcher487

03-02-2010, 10:28 AM

For some odd reason here, I'm going to have to say this. I'm sorry if I offend.

But Stephen's right.

Let us be reasonable, Wizards (Hasbro) does actually care about the secondary market (to a point). That's probably why they asked Stephen, SCG and whoever to talk to them about abolishing the reserved list. If the secondary market for Legacy gets worse than it already is, I can find it reasonable that Columbus doesn't even get 800 for turn out. Yeah it's nice that wizards got that 2,220 for Madrid but that doesn't say that half of that total was playing decks a la anyone from Day 2.

Now my personal feelings about the situation aside, at the pace things are and the way things look. Everyone comes to a tipping point when the prices are just too much and selling out becomes a good thing, but when too many people do that, you end up playing by yourself.

We all can talk big stories about how we make money off of this game. But not everyone has people in bike helmets to sell cards to.

DownSyndromeKarl

03-02-2010, 10:31 AM

in·vest·ment
–noun
1. the investing of money or capital in order to gain profitable returns, as interest, income, or appreciation in value.

Now that the housing market has crashed and my house is worth ~$30,000 less than what I payed for it, it doesn't mean I didn't invest. The only people I know of that buy Magic cards solely for financial gain, are dealers. If I spend cash money(invest) on Magic cards and get a service out of them(i.e. play in tournaments, occupy spare time) then I've made an investment and received a return in quality. The same holds true for the house. I may be out some money, but I still have a roof over my head and my daughters have a place to grow up. Not everything is about finance.

Insulting comments removed. Keep it civil. - zilla

sourcefire

03-02-2010, 10:48 AM

I have a degree in summa cum laude in economics, actually. Bonds, CDs, Real Property, Stocks -- those are investments. Anyone who 'invests' in magic should rethink their financial position.

So are art pieces and antiques investments? Rare stamps and coins? Commodities?

Investments are generally anything that is acquired with the intention of future financial return or benefit. However, that doesn't mean that an acquisition must be devoid of current utility to be considered an investment (real estate obviously is the best example of this). Just because _you_ think magic cards are a poor investment (and to the extent that someone's portfolio is mostly comprised of any non-traditional investment, I would agree with you) does not disqualify them as investments. Claiming that they are not is just ignorance of basic economics.

aggro_zombies: any response I could give in regards to the entire population of magic players woud inherently be speculative. Personally, I rarely make magic purchases without at least considering the long term value of the cards I'm picking up and this especially applies to the type of cards at issue in these kind of threads (duals/goyfs/etc). Also, the main goal of a purchase does not have to be appreciation of value for it to be an investment. The vast majority of home owners buy a house with the #1 goal of having somewhere to live and #2 goal of capital appreciation. This does not make it any less of an investment.

Aggro_zombies

03-02-2010, 10:55 AM

So are art pieces and antiques investments? Rare stamps and coins? Commodities?

Investments are generally anything that is acquired with the intention of future financial return or benefit. However, that doesn't mean that an acquisition must be devoid of current utility to be considered an investment (real estate obviously is the best example of this). Just because _you_ think magic cards are a poor investment (and to the extent that someone's portfolio is mostly comprised of any non-traditional investment, I would agree with you) does not disqualify them as investments. Claiming that they are not is just ignorance of basic economics.
And how many Magic players buy cards specifically with the intent of cashing them in later?

But I'll admit I raised an eyebrow at Stephen's remark. It would be nice to know the exact definition he's using, as one can draw a lot of parallels between Magic card prices and stocks.

caiomarcos

03-02-2010, 10:58 AM

This redemption program would be a bitch for non-americans. Cashing a check in dollars is not the easiest thing, even if it's not that hard, still a pain, with fees involved.

I really don't know why all this hate about Chronicles, did anyone here lost money with it? For me Chronicles was a blast!!! I started playing right after Alliances, and those white bordered cards with symbols from a very old age were amazing. I have my Blood Moons and Crypts from there, and also many cards I've played at one time in the last 13-14 years like Erhnam Djinn, Feldon's Cane, City of Brass, Hell's Caretaker and so on... I'd love to see Chronicles 2, with cards up to Invasion or Odissey or whatever.

FoolofaTook

03-02-2010, 11:10 AM

This is not indicative of the health of the market. How many of these players already owned their cards? How many of them borrowed from someone who already owned their cards? How many of them bought just before the price spikes? Perhaps so many players are the reason for the market explosion. It can only go up from here, so yes, WotC does need to fix something. This is just a warning sign of things to come.

The point is that people are prophesying doom for the format with an inevitable decline in participation at the same moment in time that we have just had the largest organized Magic event ever. There's nothing broken here. If it turns out that things break down in the future with a decline in participation then maybe action on WotC's part would be justified.

Eternal Magic is expensive. That's part of its allure. Nothing has changed there based on recent events. The only thing that would have made me worried about Legacy is if prices had stayed constant or declined and turnout had been disappointing in Madrid.

majikal

03-02-2010, 11:31 AM

Bardo

03-02-2010, 11:58 AM

This thread is pissing me off. Keep it civil, don't make it personal or warnings will be gladly dispensed. I'm feeling especially trigger-happy and grumpy today. You've been warned.

Dishonest debating technique #1: Glance through the other guy's post and take everything out of context.

Note that we just updated our Site Rules to include a section on intellectual dishonesty. I'll make an announcement in Community when I have time later.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?7455-Site-Rules-for-MTS&p=174026&viewfull=1#post174027

FoolofaTook

03-02-2010, 12:07 PM

The allure of eternal magic is the depth of the card pool, not the pricetag. Nobody loves paying exorbitant prices for their cards. Have you not read any of the threads about the topic on every single Magic site in existence?

So, you have some people who don't like to spend a lot of money on Magic but do like to compete. For every one of those you have other people who like to foil out all their decks and generally enjoy playing expensive decks. Your suggestion that I am a troll because I do not agree with your position, and because there are threads started by people who do agree with you on every Magic site is disingenuous on the face of it. You don't want to acknowledge my position and so you obfuscate.

Sure, I've taken a few hits and bought some expensive things, but not because I thought to myself, "Gee, I want to blow all of my money on cardboard," but because I enjoy playing the game to its fullest extent and decided that I could more than recoup the loss in winnings and enjoyment over the long term.

That's certainly one way to look at it. My position would be that I very much enjoy investing in rare cards and it's cool as hell that I can also play with them instead of watching them fail to gather dust in some hermetically sealed vacuum somewhere.

Here's the point: When things get so bad that everyone cashes out and walks away, it will be too late to do anything about it.

Where exactly do you think the "cashed out" cards will go? Into hermetically sealed vaccum containers in collections somewhere? They'll get played by whoever bought them is my guess. Yes, people cash out of things they were once interested in and go do other things all the time in life. Other people, who purchased the things they cashed out of tend to use them for their intended purpose.

The trends we're seeing in prices are following those we saw in Vintage over the last decade, and that format is now broken beyond repair in terms of accessibility.

Vintage and Legacy have so little in common that I think you can't effectively compare them. WotC actively tried to minimize the type I archetype that then became Vintage. They were interested in changing the economic model of the game towards a sustainable revenue stream from new players without completely destroying the secondary market. Their method was to de-emphasize A/B/U and shunt it to the side. This worked and Vintage is the relic of that basic decision made more than a decade ago. WotC has worked to promote Legacy as their Eternal format of choice recently, and with event support like the GP's Legacy is in no danger of replacing Vintage as the red-headed stepchild of the Magic world.

Zach Tartell

03-02-2010, 12:24 PM

Someone could please cross-post this to SCG for me, but if I were Wizards, here's how I would message the abolition of the Reserved List (and I should have put this in the article)

Why can't you post it yourself?

alphacat

03-02-2010, 12:29 PM

I have a degree in summa cum laude in economics, actually. Bonds, CDs, Real Property, Stocks -- those are investments. Anyone who 'invests' in magic should rethink their financial position.

Is this a joke? We're throwing degrees around to prove a point? Believe it or not, I have a degree in economics too, and I work in private equity. Would you like to compare which school we graduated from to see whose point is more valid?

Anyway, you need to look up the definition of investment, I'm not sure how you can study economics, yet have such a narrow view. The range of things people invest in nowadays is mindboggling. There are people who invest in cars, in comic books, in coins, in stamps, in weather, in corn, in rice, and of course, in magic cards. (Do you know how much an Action Comics #1 is worth? I'm sure you know, it's rhetorical.) To say magic cards can not be an investment is perhaps the dumbest thing I've heard you say in quite a while.

Btw, just because people invest in cards doesn't mean they need to 'rethink their financial position'. Ever heard of hedging? (I'm sure you have, since you've got 'summa cum laude') Suppose I'm well off financially, and I understand magic, can't I allocate 1% of my portfolio into cards?

Seriously, grow up, stop throwing degrees around. Do realize that plenty of intelligent people play magic, so stop condescending.

When someone instructs you to "take a class" in something (implying that you have no knowledge of the subject matter) it is perfectly reasonable to point out that you have a degree in said subject. That's not "throwing degrees around". Let's keep things in context. Incidentally, "what you said is dumb" is not a valid debate tactic. -zilla

majikal

03-02-2010, 12:33 PM

So, you have some people who don't like to spend a lot of money on Magic but do like to compete. For every one of those you have other people who like to foil out all their decks and generally enjoy playing expensive decks. Your suggestion that I am a troll because I do not agree with your position, and because there are threads started by people who do agree with you on every Magic site is disingenuous on the face of it. You don't want to acknowledge my position and so you obfuscate.
You have those people in every format, not just Legacy. Your position is therefore invalid regarding this topic.

Where exactly do you think the "cashed out" cards will go? Into hermetically sealed vaccum containers in collections somewhere? They'll get played by whoever bought them is my guess. Yes, people cash out of things they were once interested in and go do other things all the time in life. Other people, who purchased the things they cashed out of tend to use them for their intended purpose.
Then tell me, where did all of the Moxes, Lotuses, Workshops, and Bazaars go when Vintage players cashed out? They're certainly not being played on the same level, so what happened?

Vintage and Legacy have so little in common that I think you can't effectively compare them. WotC actively tried to minimize the type I archetype that then became Vintage. They were interested in changing the economic model of the game towards a sustainable revenue stream from new players without completely destroying the secondary market. Their method was to de-emphasize A/B/U and shunt it to the side. This worked and Vintage is the relic of that basic decision made more than a decade ago. WotC has worked to promote Legacy as their Eternal format of choice recently, and with event support like the GP's Legacy is in no danger of replacing Vintage as the red-headed stepchild of the Magic world.
This is a flawed argument. You even said yourself that WotC shifted the focus away from Vintage in order to change the economic model of the game. Gee, I wonder why? Could it be because the format became prohibitively expensive? So tell me what happens when Legacy reaches that point? Logic will lead one to the conclusion that the same thing will happen to Legacy once it stops being profitable for WotC. They'll push it to the side and move on to something else, and we will have nobody left to play with.

Aggro_zombies

03-02-2010, 12:40 PM

Why can't you post it yourself?
I think he's banned from the forums.

Zlatzman

03-02-2010, 12:53 PM

I don't see the problem being people cashing out, but rather people not cashing out. "Knowing" that prices often increase, there isn't any reason to cash out today, even if taking a break from the game. Most people I know who bought power9 are no longer playing Vintage, but they still haven't sold their p9, rather choosing to keep them in case they might play Vintage some time in the future.

Meister_Kai

03-02-2010, 12:54 PM

The point is that people are prophesying doom for the format with an inevitable decline in participation at the same moment in time that we have just had the largest organized Magic event ever. There's nothing broken here. If it turns out that things break down in the future with a decline in participation then maybe action on WotC's part would be justified.

Eternal Magic is expensive. That's part of its allure. Nothing has changed there based on recent events. The only thing that would have made me worried about Legacy is if prices had stayed constant or declined and turnout had been disappointing in Madrid.

I think what people are trying to accomplish with discarding the reserved list etc is eliminating a potential problem before it gets out of hand. You are more or less right, nothing is "broken" right now, but I would like to think that making sure it never breaks by using routine maintenance is a much better way of doing things as compared to just waiting until revised duals average $70 a piece. At that point the damage is done, it could be too late to do anything about it, why would you want to wait until this could happen? It seems that when arguing this, many people forget that the prices of certain cards (duals, FOW etc) are not only too high for some people's taste, but that they will continue to rise unless something is done.

Also, I can see where you're coming from with the allure of the price. However, I believe that is the sort of thing new players feel, consider this hyopothetical example for instance:

Kid: "holy crap, he had Mox Diamond in his deck, my big brother used to play that card when I was little! Those things are like $50! I wish I could play that deck!"

Of course the kid can't, not because the cards are old, or that the kid is young, but because $50 is way too much money, for this kid and most adults. I also have to say I really disagree with your statement of:

For every one of those you have other people who like to foil out all their decks and generally enjoy playing expensive decks

I don't have any data to back my next statement wrong, but I have a very, very strong gut feeling that this is wrong. I would in fact wager the opposite, that most people don't like foils (I am biased, I think foils are tacky) and couldn't care less about pimping out their decks.

As for my own, personal opinion, I think that no widely used card should be above $20 a piece. I bought three Revised Tropical Islands for $20 a piece back in 2005 or so and I saw (and still see) nothing wrong with this. However, once they start going for ridiculous prices (such as $45 for ones in played condition) it gets to the point where people start to think, "you know, I could do a lot of other shit for the price of this manabase, like build an entire Standard deck" and that is where things start to go wrong.

As far as doomsaying goes, I think the people who think a mythic reprinting of Tabernacle making the original go down to $100 (the price it was for YEARS) are the ones making predictions of the apocalypse.

FoolofaTook

03-02-2010, 01:05 PM

You have those people in every format, not just Legacy. Your position is therefore invalid regarding this topic.

No it's not. It's equally valid. Some people play Magic because they enjoy playing with expensive cards. Those people tend to cluster in the Eternal formats because the Eternal formats are dominated by expensive cards. It is what it is. If you have a car to drive around that doesn't mean you have a right to enter the Indy 500. You need to buy a car that is allowed to race on that track.

Then tell me, where did all of the Moxes, Lotuses, Workshops, and Bazaars go when Vintage players cashed out? They're certainly not being played on the same level, so what happened?

For the power 9 there weren't all that many of them to begin with, given that they were rares in a total print run of about 45 million cards. A lot of them went to dust before the era of card sleeves. Type I was basically on life support after WotC's shift towards Type II along about the time Ice Age was printed. There's also the overseas effect given that A/B/U/ were never released anywhere but the US. Every collector who bought power 9 overseas removed a play set from the US Type I/Vintage meta. Vintage is basically close to unplayable without the power 9 and that's the biggest constraint on the format.

This is a flawed argument. You even said yourself that WotC shifted the focus away from Vintage in order to change the economic model of the game. Gee, I wonder why? Could it be because the format became prohibitively expensive? So tell me what happens when Legacy reaches that point? Logic will lead one to the conclusion that the same thing will happen to Legacy once it stops being profitable for WotC. They'll push it to the side and move on to something else, and we will have nobody left to play with.

WotC moved away from Type I for any number of reasons, but the bottom line came down to their desire to have greater control over the economics of the competition. Their method of accomplishing that was to minimize the effects on competition of cards that were out of print and that they thought were overpowered and should not be reprinted. If they'd been happy with Type I power levels they'd probably have moved in a different direction. They did have real pressure on them from dealers and venue operators, who made substantial income from the secondary market in the form of booth and card sales, not to damage the secondary market as they made the transition.

As to the point of what will happen when Legacy becomes prohibitively expensive? I don't know, but based on Madrid we're clearly not there yet, probably not even close.

majikal

03-02-2010, 01:09 PM

Smmenen

03-02-2010, 01:22 PM

No it's not. It's equally valid. Some people play Magic because they enjoy playing with expensive cards. Those people tend to cluster in the Eternal formats because the Eternal formats are dominated by expensive cards. It is what it is. If you have a car to drive around that doesn't mean you have a right to enter the Indy 500. You need to buy a car that is allowed to race on that track.

For the power 9 there weren't all that many of them to begin with, given that they were rares in a total print run of about 45 million cards. A lot of them went to dust before the era of card sleeves. Type I was basically on life support after WotC's shift towards Type II along about the time Ice Age was printed. There's also the overseas effect given that A/B/U/ were never released anywhere but the US. Every collector who bought power 9 overseas removed a play set from the US Type I/Vintage meta. Vintage is basically close to unplayable without the power 9 and that's the biggest constraint on the format.

WotC moved away from Type I for any number of reasons, but the bottom line came down to their desire to have greater control over the economics of the competition. Their method of accomplishing that was to minimize the effects on competition of cards that were out of print and that they thought were overpowered and should not be reprinted. If they'd been happy with Type I power levels they'd probably have moved in a different direction. They did have real pressure on them from dealers and venue operators, who made substantial income from the secondary market in the form of booth and card sales, not to damage the secondary market as they made the transition.

As to the point of what will happen when Legacy becomes prohibitively expensive? I don't know, but based on Madrid we're clearly not there yet, probably not even close.

I addressed alot of this in the article.

Can we please keep this thread on the topic of the article? Thanks

TheInfamousBearAssassin

03-02-2010, 01:22 PM

You're missing the point entirely, which is to do something before it becomes a problem, because you and I both know that it will. Jesus Christ, you don't honestly believe that everything is hunky dory while the data that states otherwise is staring you right in the face, do you?

Clearly it's irrational to do anything about the housing bubble before prices crash and fuck up the rest of the economy.

This is exactly why I never put on my seat belt until right before I get into an accident.

FoolofaTook

03-02-2010, 01:23 PM

You're missing the point entirely, which is to do something before it becomes a problem, because you and I both know that it will. Jesus Christ, you don't honestly believe that everything is hunky dory while the data that states otherwise is staring you right in the face, do you?

The only data that I see that is completely and without reservation indicative of the health or lack thereof of the Legacy format is the 2,220 people who traveled to Madrid to play Legacy last weekend. Everything else we're talking about pales in comparison to that as an immediate indicator of what's going on.

Smmenen

03-02-2010, 01:23 PM

I think what people are trying to accomplish with discarding the reserved list etc is eliminating a potential problem before it gets out of hand. You are more or less right, nothing is "broken" right now, but I would like to think that making sure it never breaks by using routine maintenance is a much better way of doing things as compared to just waiting until revised duals average $70 a piece. At that point the damage is done, it could be too late to do anything about it, why would you want to wait until this could happen? It seems that when arguing this, many people forget that the prices of certain cards (duals, FOW etc) are not only too high for some people's taste, but that they will continue to rise unless something is done..

Exactly. This is exactly the tone of the article, and my second main point.

Smmenen

03-02-2010, 01:24 PM

Clearly it's irrational to do anything about the housing bubble before prices crash and fuck up the rest of the economy.

This is exactly why I never put on my seat belt until right before I get into an accident.

Ha! Well put.

FoolofaTook

03-02-2010, 01:25 PM

I addressed alot of this in the article.

Can we please keep this thread on the topic of the article? Thanks

I believe everything I have posted in this thread pertains to the main topic covered in your article, which is the prospect of reprints and the reserved list. That I disagree with you on the topic does not mean that I am not addressing it.

FoolofaTook

03-02-2010, 01:27 PM

This is exactly why I never put on my seat belt until right before I get into an accident.

Show me the Magic accident that requires seatbelts as a pre-emptive measure and I might agree with this. Don't show me a hypothetical one, show me one that has occurred.

Bardo

03-02-2010, 02:04 PM

Can we please keep this thread on the topic of the article? Thanks

!

Nightmare

03-02-2010, 03:03 PM

Show me the Magic accident that requires seatbelts as a pre-emptive measure and I might agree with this. Don't show me a hypothetical one, show me one that has occurred.

Consider it more like changing the oil in your car every 3000 miles. Sure, your engine may not seize up on this trip if you don't. Sure, it may not happen for another 20,000 miles. But if you don't address the issue, it will cause problems at some point.

The fact that you've never had an engine seize up on you doesn't change a thing.

Smmenen

03-02-2010, 03:10 PM

Show me the Magic accident that requires seatbelts as a pre-emptive measure and I might agree with this. Don't show me a hypothetical one, show me one that has occurred.

The Housing crisis is a great example. By the time it reaches full blown crisis level, it's often too late to respond, or respond efficiently.

It's sort of like a Tsuanami. When it's way out at sea, it's just a little wave that grows and grows and crests into a destructive force of nature. If you can sense it before it strikes, you can evacuate rather than have to scramble at the last minute.

Wizards can wait until OR IF the situation arises where Legacy is getting crushed by high prices, and the format suffers, AND when it will be much moer difficult to abolish the reserved list because (as we've seen here in this thread!) more and more players are acquiring a sense of "investor entitlement" that they may not have had, especially in that same degree, before this recent rise in legacy prices.

The bottom line, as I say in the article, is dual lands. In order to compete in legacy in the long run, you will need dual lands. Wizards wants to support Legacy. If Dual lands reach $80-100 a pop, which is certainly not inconceivable, especially the longer the time horizon, then Legacy will suffer.

As people who love Legacy and, I would hope, want to see it grow, and, in my role as representative of this community, I advocated a position that I believe is in the best interest of the Eternal formats, their future growth and sustainability.

The fact is that Magic is growing. It's much larger than it was even two years ago. What if, 10 years from now, Magic has *twice* as many players as it does now? Don't we want those players to enjoy legacy?

Wizards has a duty to the future of the brand and the formats, not just to current players.

undone

03-02-2010, 03:20 PM

Consider it more like changing the oil in your car every 3000 miles. Sure, your engine may not seize up on this trip if you don't. Sure, it may not happen for another 20,000 miles. But if you don't address the issue, it will cause problems at some point.

The fact that you've never had an engine seize up on you doesn't change a thing.

Good logic. We should make Reserved list 2.0 with goyf baneslayer Jace the mind sculptor the 10 fetches dark depths, and path to exile. To prevent the prices from seizing up. The problem is that people dont understand

Magic is both a

Collectible Card Game

and a

Collectible Card Game

People dont understand and never will be able to see both sides well enough because we come from differant economic backgrounds. Another example would be people saying X price is ok, but 2X is too much. So is X 10? 20? 30? 40? 50? 100? 500? That is directly based on your economic position at the moment. Example

Rich person

"THAT BOAT'S A BARGAIN! I will take it, only 200,000 right?"

Normal people

"Thats a good home and a reasonable price only 60-100k right?"

Exct, its just too hard to say "It is too expensive" its all right to say "its too expensive for ME" When Eternal formats have a major DECLINE is when the magical 50% marker has been crossed and that is when the prices will be delt with. I see little problem with preventing the obliteration of all cards (as cards just go to nothingness over time) via say judge promos but when the intention of WOTC is only to control and manipulate the secondary market it is a terrible idea. Think for a moment if you will if baceball companies directly reprinted say Honus Wagner cards in the same style and sent them out so people could afford them and to make a profit.

majikal

03-02-2010, 03:43 PM

Think for a moment if you will if baceball companies directly reprinted say Honus Wagner cards in the same style and sent them out so people could afford them and to make a profit.
But... they already do this. All the time.

FoolofaTook

03-02-2010, 04:21 PM

The Housing crisis is a great example. By the time it reaches full blown crisis level, it's often too late to respond, or respond efficiently.

And in your example the Magic game as a whole will become horribly damaged if Legacy somehow reached a critical mass of over-pricing and only the people paying for those over-priced cards played Legacy? Really?

The housing crisis was a crisis because it almost unhinged the entire economy. This is not the same thing we're talking about here. WotC could turn their back on Legacy and probably keep going on Standard and Draft formats forever. If they couldn't then something much more unhealthy than the price of Eternal cards is afflicting the game and making Eternal formats more readily available is not likely to fix that.

Wizards can wait until OR IF the situation arises where Legacy is getting crushed by high prices, and the format suffers, AND when it will be much moer difficult to abolish the reserved list because (as we've seen here in this thread!) more and more players are acquiring a sense of "investor entitlement" that they may not have had, especially in that same degree, before this recent rise in legacy prices.

This mythical crushing that you see of Legacy is nowhere on the horizon. It's an invention of a fervid imagination. When we see the crushing begin there will be plenty of time for WotC too act: either by reprinting, or banning, or just letting Legacy proceed down whatever path it's headed on.

I could just as easily say that someday there will be 40k discrete Magic cards in print and neither of us knows which formats will even exist at that point. My point would be just as accurate and prophetic as your description of the doom that awaits an untampered with Legacy format.

The bottom line, as I say in the article, is dual lands. In order to compete in legacy in the long run, you will need dual lands. Wizards wants to support Legacy. If Dual lands reach $80-100 a pop, which is certainly not inconceivable, especially the longer the time horizon, then Legacy will suffer.

Your point that in order to compete in Legacy in the long run you will need dual-lands is false. In order to build many decks you will need dual lands, but there always have been and always will be competitive mono-colored decks in Legacy. If I sold every A/B/U/R dual land I own I could build Merfolk, Goblins, LED-less Ichorid, Burn, MUC, Elves, Quinn, Death and Taxes, and probably a dozen more decks that were at least randomly competitive in Legacy after having done so. If you want to build any deck that you might choose to play then yes, you need a full set of duals. Like any other Magic endeavor your ability to do this is constrained by your wallet. WotC has never made anybody a promise that they could play any type of organized Magic competition cheaply.

Wizards has a duty to the future of the brand and the formats, not just to current players.

The only duties that I see WotC having are to continue to print new cards, keeping Magic interesting even for jaded old-timers, to continue to administer the organized competition of Magic through the DCI (and really they don't need to do this but I'm sure it's part of their brand management - Magic the CCG that people actually compete with in organized competitions over multiple generations) and most importantly to make money so that they stay in business.

I've seen WotC in action before when they wanted to hone the economic model and make it more efficient moving forward and they were ruthless to the existing format, organizers and players at the time. If there's a bottom line where they can make money and continue to make money by reprinting they'll do that. If reprints would just be a sideshow with unpredictable consequences they won't. That's just my prediction based on actual observances of WotC in action.

Aggro_zombies

03-02-2010, 04:33 PM

mossivo1986

03-02-2010, 04:41 PM

Steve when you talked with WOTC did you have these kinds of thoughts on your mind? Did you share them?

Smmenen

03-02-2010, 04:55 PM

And in your example the Magic game as a whole will become horribly damaged if Legacy somehow reached a critical mass of over-pricing and only the people paying for those over-priced cards played Legacy? Really?

The housing crisis was a crisis because it almost unhinged the entire economy. This is not the same thing we're talking about here. WotC could turn their back on Legacy and probably keep going on Standard and Draft formats forever. If they couldn't then something much more unhealthy than the price of Eternal cards is afflicting the game and making Eternal formats more readily available is not likely to fix that.

I am coming from the Perspective of the Eternal Community. As Eternal players, we care about the future of Eternal. While I believe what is good for Eternal is good for magic, I don't doubt that Magic as a brand can survive without Legacy or Vintage. That's not the issue.

I think that most people here would prefer to see Legacy grow and thrive. If Legacy dual land prices reach a certain threshold, Legacy's ability to grow will be severely curtailed, and huge parts of the player base will be priced out. Wizards wants to see Legacy as a major supported format. Currently, it's the secod most popular constucted format, according to data Wizards shared with us.

I, for one, would like to see Legacy grow and enjoy sustained Wizards support. It appears you either disagree or don't care. We are coming from different viewpoints, that regard.

This mythical crushing that you see of Legacy is nowhere on the horizon. It's an invention of a fervid imagination. When we see the crushing begin there will be plenty of time for WotC too act: either by reprinting, or banning, or just letting Legacy proceed down whatever path it's headed on.

You are distorting what I said.

Wizards can wait until OR IF the situation arises where Legacy is getting crushed by high price

I said it can wait until OR If. I don't think that a price rise in dual lands to the levels that it becomes a serious problem for Legacy is inevitable, but I do think it is a possibility. My claim is that $80-$100 dual lands would be crushing for Legacy as a broad based format. You call this the invention of a fervid imagination or nowhere on the horizon.

It doesn't make much imagination to price dual lands at $80-$100 within a few years based upon the price trend lines of the last two years. It's just following a line over time.

You seem to deny this possibility. I disagree. While I would certainly agree that it's not a given, and I never said it was, it's foolish to deny the possibility. We can quibble about how likey it is - I think it's a strong possibility, perhaps even a probability. But to flat tu say that it's 'no where on the horizon' or just 'fervid' imagination seems to be a strong form of denial.

I could just as easily say that someday there will be 40k discrete Magic cards in print and neither of us knows which formats will even exist at that point. My point would be just as accurate and prophetic as your description of the doom that awaits an untampered with Legacy format.

My argument is that Wizards should abolish the reserved list. That argument is supported by a concern that eternal formats may some day need reprints. That doesn't mean that they will need reprints, but that Wizards should have all options available to it, and that waiting until that day to abolish the reserved list will make doing so more difficult. I am being neither prophetic nor fortelling doom. Rather, I am quite reasonably consider one possible eventuality, and suggesting that Wizards take steps to allow itself to take the best course of action if that eventuality arises.

Your disagree because you feel that this possibilty is remote. We disagree on how likely this possibilty may be. I think you are wrong to consider price of dual land at levels I stated as not a problem.

Your point that in order to compete in Legacy in the long run you will need dual-lands is false.

I suspect that the vast majority of Legacy players would disagree with you.

In order to build many decks you will need dual lands, but there always have been and always will be competitive mono-colored decks in Legacy. If I sold every A/B/U/R dual land I own I could build Merfolk, Goblins, LED-less Ichorid, Burn, MUC, Elves, Quinn, Death and Taxes, and probably a dozen more decks that were at least randomly competitive in Legacy after having done so. If you want to build any deck that you might choose to play then yes, you need a full set of duals. Like any other Magic endeavor your ability to do this is constrained by your wallet. WotC has never made anybody a promise that they could play any type of organized Magic competition cheaply.

So, your argument that my claim that in order to play Legacy in the long term is false is based on the point that you can build decks in legacy without dual lands?

That's a pretty silly argument. Of course you can play decks in legacy without dual lands. You can build many decks in Vintage without Power nine: Manaless Dredge, R/G Beats, Meandeck Beats, various Fish decks, burn, Goblins, and Elves. All of those decks have made top 8s in the last year. But that doen't mean you don't need Power 9 to compete in the long run. The same is true of dual lands in legacy.

The only duty that I see WotC having is to continue to print new cards, keeping Magic interesting even for jaded old-timers, to continue to administer the organized competition of Magic through the DCI (and really they don't need to do this but I'm sure it's part of their brand management - Magic the CCG that people actually compete with in organized competitions over multiple generations) and most importantly to make money so that they stay in business.

Making money to stay in business can be done in many ways. Wizards can operate a business model that emphasizes short term profits at the expense of long-term health. They do not. They actually want Magic to be around for a long time. They know that Wizards as a company will be there after people who are there are gone. They hope that there will be many more Magic players to come than there are now.

You have a very different view of Magic, and its future, than I think and I hope most people here would. I think most people in this community would like to see Legacy grow, enjoy more WOTC support, and survive in the long run.

I've seen WotC in action before when they wanted to hone the economic model and make it more efficient moving forward and they were ruthless to the existing format, organizers and players at the time. If there's a bottom line where they can make money and continue to make money by reprinting they'll do that.

That's clearly false. I can think of numerous cards they could reprint right now as a fast cash grab. Mana Drain and Force of Will spring to mind. They have not reprinted those card, despite the fact that they could sell many, many packs in doign so.

You are wrong about Wizards, and you appear quite cynical and jaded, not to mention indifferent to the long term health of Legacy.

FoolofaTook

03-02-2010, 04:57 PM

Wait, you actually like this format, right? This makes it sound like you don't care about Legacy at all, which seems weak on a Legacy-only board. People who care about this format would prefer for that not to happen, and after the largest tournament ever was played in this format, I think Wizards has realized there a lot of people interested in Legacy.

2,220 people. That's a lot of people who got their hands on a Legacy deck to go play the game. I don't see Legacy as in any peril at all right now, based on current events, and so I resist other people telling me that I need to give up thousands of dollars of card value for the health of the format. Come back and speak to me about this when the format is actually in trouble.

People played violin while the Titanic sank. It takes Wizards months just to print the cards, to say nothing of actually putting together a set, commissioning artwork, templating, etc. Bannings have already been discussed to death as being a bad option.

They also played trombone and tuba and clarinet. What are you saying here? That we should all be gathering our instruments because Legacy is sinking? Prove it.

A set of Forces for Merfolk, widely seen as the best budget option, will run you almost $200. Then the Wastelands will run you another $80 or so. The entire deck costs probably close to $400-$500. This is more than most Standard decks. Or are you seriously suggesting everyone play something awful like MUC (which itself isn't cheap for a deck that sucks so badly)?

Force of Will is not on the reserve list. Wasteland is not on the reserve list.

Here is the reserve list for those who need to see it:

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/TCG/Article.aspx?x=magic/products/reprintpolicy

Surprisingly few Legacy staples are on it. In fact, if WotC really wanted to make Legacy more affordable they could meet the existing player base halfway, in a manner that would help older players preserve the value in their reserve list cards and newer players offset some of the costs of getting into the format. They could reprint many of the non-reserve list Legacy staples in a volume that allows new players to easily acquire things like Tarmogoyf, Force of Will, Engineered Explosives and Wasteland. Legacy players would be equally hit by these reprints, since everybody has ponied up for goyfs and the like.

How does Legacy for new players sound when it makes your $90 goyfs into a $20 playset? Not as good, right?

Wizards can make more money by printing Legacy staples to support a competitive Legacy scene than by allowing the format to implode over cost concerns. Vintage in the mid-2000s is a good case of this: interest in the format briefly surged, but the staple cards were too expensive and players lost interest when they decided the format was too costly. Believe it or not, public perception of a format counts, and a lot of people who might otherwise be interested in Vintage are turned away at the door because they've heard it's a "rich man's format" and therefore decide that it would be a waste to look into a format they obviously won't be able to play. If Legacy becomes known as a Vintage Lite, what then?

I mean, I don't understand if you actually believe this, or if you're just trolling here.

Vintage is a terrible comparison, because WotC marketed the format split as a rich/poor issue when in fact they were doing the split for entirely different reasons. The public impression of Vintage as a rich man's game is actually inaccurate, it's much more of a cognoscenti's game populated by people who have owned most of the cards forever. If Legacy is like Vintage in 30 years it'll mean that most of the players are long-time veterans with a mix of younger players who have bought in because they like the format.

As to whether I'm trolling, I'm not. I really believe that you can take my card value out of my cold dead hands. I'm arguing to the extent that I am because I don't want anybody at WotC to think that this is a slam-dunk issue in favor of reprints in the Legacy community. It really isn't based on the polls I've looked at on various sites.

FoolofaTook

03-02-2010, 05:02 PM

You are wrong about Wizards, and you appear quite cynical and jaded, not to mention indifferent to the long term health of Legacy.

I'll agree to disagree with you and move on since we could do this for days without changing our arguments.

My cynical and jaded nature comes from the fact that I was here for the original typeI/type II split. It took me a decade to come back to Magic after that because my favored format had been marginalized in favor of a weaker and much less interesting competition.

I have no doubt that whatever WotC does will be done only for the bottom line.

Smmenen

03-02-2010, 05:18 PM

I'll agree to disagree with you and move on since we could do this for days without changing our arguments.

My cynical and jaded nature comes from the fact that I was here for the original typeI/type II split. It took me a decade to come back to Magic after that because my favored format had been marginalized in favor of a weaker and much less interesting competition.

I have no doubt that whatever WotC does will be done only for the bottom line.

That's an awfully broad statement. Again, it only takes one counter-example to disprove it, and I can offer many. Mana Drain. And, more generally, if what you say is true, than Wizards could have printed power nine years ago, Reserved List be damned.

There are natural constraints on Wizard desire to reprint, such as a concern for power-level of formats that generate the most interest and profit, like Standard.

You aren't the only one who was offput by the Type I/II split. I quit magic shortly thereafter, in dissapointment. But your arguments are mostly without merit, and deny the obvious. You refuse to acknowledge the obvious possibilty that price increases in dual lands create a significant barrier to entry, and could hurt legacy in the future. That doen't mean that these prices will manifest, but it's hard to deny that they are a realistic possibilty based upon simple trend line data.

You suggest that dual lands aren't really necessary for long-term enjoyment of Legacy. I think most people here would disagree with you.

And, you don't really seem to care whether Legacy dies or not. Again, I think most people here care very much.

Smmenen

03-02-2010, 05:20 PM

2,220 people. That's a lot of people who got their hands on a Legacy deck to go play the game. I don't see Legacy as in any peril at all right now, based on current events, and so I resist other people telling me that I need to give up thousands of dollars of card value for the health of the format. Come back and speak to me about this when the format is actually in trouble..

No one denies that Legacy is doing great now.The whole point is that if Wizards waits until the format is actually in trouble, then doing something about it will be much more difficult because of many reasons, including the fact that more players will feel invested/entitled and to a greater degree than is currently the case.

DrJones

03-02-2010, 05:29 PM

I would love being able to play a tourney without having to ask ten different people to lend me cards, and I can consider myself fortunate because I've been playing for longer than ten years and had access to a lot of the staples before they skyrocketed in price.

Smmenen

03-02-2010, 05:40 PM

Steve when you talked with WOTC did you have these kinds of thoughts on your mind? Did you share them?

Well, unfortunately, the price spikes hadn't quite manifested to the same degree in mid-January, when we met. So the issue was not as salient.

However, I was the first of the three guests to speak, and the first thing I said was that whatever Wizards does, it should do for the best interests of the game, and I reiterated my belief that that is best for Eternal formats is also what is best for the game.

It is worth noting that none of the big dealers really like the Reserved List either. And you would think that they have the most to lose, at least in the short-run.

Meister_Kai

03-02-2010, 05:55 PM

I really believe that you can take my card value out of my cold dead hands..

I guess the question then is that, if Magic is truly an investment (with money to potentially gain) when will the natural ebb and flow come into play considering the price of an expensive card? I will admit that I don't know a whole lot about economics, but show me one stock, one investment, that doesn't have the capacity to just bottom out. It seems to me (sorry if I'm assuming too much here) that you assume that:

1. Not only will your cards always be worth either what they are now, but
2. They will be worth more in the future, and
3. The possibility that this "investment" could potentially decrease in value is unacceptable.

Assuming a natural order of things, if you feel like your collection could potentially become worthless, but is worth something now, wouldn't now be the time to sell out? How many other investments go on, never depreciating?

It seems to me that this is a case of wanting to have your cake, and eat it too.

FoolofaTook

03-02-2010, 06:00 PM

1. Not only will your cards always be worth either what they are now, but
2. They will be worth more in the future, and
3. The possibility that this "investment" could potentially decrease in value is unacceptable..

The only thing that I assume in all of this is that WotC will never reprint cards that they have said as a matter of corporate policy will never be reprinted. Never is a pretty easy word to understand.

Smmenen

03-02-2010, 06:04 PM

The only thing that I assume in all of this is that WotC will never reprint cards that they have said as a matter of corporate policy will never be reprinted. Never is a pretty easy word to understand.

But you also said that Wizards will always do whatever will make them a buck. Which is it? They could have made plenty of money with P9 reprints years ago.

Bardo

03-02-2010, 06:08 PM

The only thing that I assume in all of this is that WotC will never reprint cards that they have said as a matter of corporate policy will never be reprinted. Never is a pretty easy word to understand.

I like how Ben B. covered your position in his last article (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/misc/18849_Insider_Trading_The_Cost_of_Cards_On_Foils_and_One_Last_Reserved_List_Thought_Part_3_of_3.html):

"The only thing holding this back from happening is understanding – understanding from collectors that the Reserved List was a genuine mistake from a company that didn’t know any better at the time. Understanding that people (and companies) make mistakes, and that sometimes you need to acknowledge and forgive a mistake, and move on, rather than holding a grudge, or seeing the world in a strict Black-and-White that 'a promise is a promise.' If you know that the promise is hurting the majority of players, and the company that made it, isn’t it somewhat selfish to say 'A promise is a promise, and I don’t care how many people it’s hurting, I want Wizards of the Coast to keep their word, no matter what?'"

It's my (and I'm sure others) opinion that the Reserved List was an overreaction to a decision that was not fully thought through at the time -- by people who no longer even work there. Seems best to correct a bad decision/policy rather than slavishly abiding it.

If it's reasonably likely that the game will be more successful and popular by eliminating or greatly reducing the cards on the Reprint Policy (say, by leaving on P9), then I think WotC should eliminate or change the reprint. To not do so, seems pretty idiotic, imo.

Meister_Kai

03-02-2010, 06:10 PM

The only thing that I assume in all of this is that WotC will never reprint cards that they have said as a matter of corporate policy will never be reprinted. Never is a pretty easy word to understand.

Wizards could print over a million copies of FTV Dual Lands tomorrow and technically not break their promise one bit. Wizards has already done things like this. Wizards has already changed the Reserved List before. I guess i'll stop now, I don't think we can see eye to eye.

FoolofaTook

03-02-2010, 06:25 PM

But you also said that Wizards will always do whatever will make them a buck. Which is it? They could have made plenty of money with P9 reprints years ago.

I'm always prepared for a business to do the scurrilous thing. That's because frequently there is more money on the bottom line available for them if they skirt the high ground for a more direct path. I assume they won't do this in this case primarily because things seem to be going well for them. Why try to fix something that isn't broken?

What is surprising to me in the arguments I'm hearing on the other side is how little they take into account the realities of a sudden change in reprint policy by WotC at this point. People are upset that duals and other staples have gone through the roof with the advent of Legacy's new popularity. So the answer they advocate appears to be driving staple card prices down at a time when demonstrably (based on card prices) a bunch of new players have made big investments in the staples. Oh yeah, that'll work, just cut the noobs off at the knees and convince them that buying further into Legacy is just a trap.

People claim that Legacy would become so much cheaper to play if the duals were just reprinted and the price came down. What happens to the other staples though, the ones not reprinted? They go way up because more Legacy players are chasing fewer cards and the price rises. Unless WotC reprinted Tarmogoyf and a bunch of other staples at the same time the cost of Legacy would just switch from the mana base to the other cards played frequently. Legacy has a lot of staples at this point at mythic, rare and uncommon levels. WotC would have to do a lot of reprinting to have any real hope of countering the price rises in other cards. And they'd be facing a much larger legion of people owning cards like Goyf saying no to reprints. It's a steep slope for WotC to step out on without knowing all the ramifications of the early decisions. Much easier just to leave things be as long as things are good for them anyway.

Do you think WotC wants to be in the business of constantly checking secondary market prices and printing cards based on that to hold prices down in one of the formats? Really? That doesn't look like part of their business model to me and it's a slippery slope if they decided to try and make it part.

MMogg

03-02-2010, 06:39 PM

I like how Ben B. covered your position in his last article (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/misc/18849_Insider_Trading_The_Cost_of_Cards_On_Foils_and_One_Last_Reserved_List_Thought_Part_3_of_3.html):

"The only thing holding this back from happening is understanding – understanding from collectors that the Reserved List was a genuine mistake from a company that didn’t know any better at the time. Understanding that people (and companies) make mistakes, and that sometimes you need to acknowledge and forgive a mistake, and move on, rather than holding a grudge, or seeing the world in a strict Black-and-White that 'a promise is a promise.' If you know that the promise is hurting the majority of players, and the company that made it, isn’t it somewhat selfish to say 'A promise is a promise, and I don’t care how many people it’s hurting, I want Wizards of the Coast to keep their word, no matter what?'"

It's my (and I'm sure others) opinion that the Reserved List was an overreaction to a decision that was not fully thought through at the time -- by people who no longer even work there. Seems best to correct a bad decision/policy rather than slavishly abiding it.

If it's reasonably likely that the game will be more successful and popular by eliminating or greatly reducing the cards on the Reprint Policy (say, by leaving on P9), then I think WotC should eliminate or change the reprint. To not do so, seems pretty idiotic, imo.

Not @ Bardo, just in general in response: It's not even about the Reserve List any more, is it? It's about no one wanting to lose out on anything and everyone wanting to gain on everything. I think the recent discussions have been largely irrational and verging on hysterical. There's a long list of cards (Ben covered) that are not even on the list that haven't been reprinted. I'm getting tired of the list's demise being synonymous with endless reprinting considering they haven't reprinted stuff not even on the list.

I'm also a little tired of reprinting being synonymous with Japanese foil pimped to the max variants as if that is the only kind of reprint possible. People like JACO (yeah, I'm naming names) even admitted:

When I say a Legends Tabernacle would drop to $15 overnight with a reprint that's a bit of hyperbole.

Seems to me, if we want to have a rational and productive conversation, hyperbolic statements, particularly from people writing articles, is the opposite of constructive and only serves to polarize debate.

Bardo

03-02-2010, 06:55 PM

I'm always prepared for a business to do the scurrilous thing. That's because frequently there is more money on the bottom line available for them if they skirt the high ground for a more direct path. I assume they won't do this in this case primarily because things seem to be going well for them. Why try to fix something that isn't broken?

Yeah, they're a business, so? How and why does that taint things? They have a business to run; they're not a charity. I don't understand why this sentiment keeps popping up.

As people go, I'm pretty far left of center (on that political access, something crazy like -9.0/-8.5). As I see it, there are good decisions and bad decisions; it's not like their dumping toxic sludge into Puget Sound, organizing a coup in some third-world nation or obstructing a recall of dangerous consumer products.

So the answer they advocate appears to be driving staple card prices down at a time when demonstrably (based on card prices) a bunch of new players have made big investments in the staples. Oh yeah, that'll work, just cut the noobs off at the knees and convince them that buying further into Legacy is just a trap.
I'm not speaking for anyone but myself here; the issue I'd like to see addressed is 1) price stabilization (through new supply); 2) sustainable player base for eternal formats (specifically, Legacy). That some people bought cards in the last year at high prices and those cards will go down in price as new supply is added to the market and be upset, seems to less important than the continued price of entry and overall success of Legacy. Those people are looking at devaluation of their cards in any case: either through gradual loss of player interest (diminished demand) or new cards (increased supply).

People claim that Legacy would become so much cheaper to play if the duals were just reprinted and the price came down. What happens to the other staples though, the ones not reprinted? They go way up because more Legacy players are chasing fewer cards and the price rises.

Everyone needs a manabase (i.e. duals) to play many competitive decks. It's the price of the lands that are the principal barrier to entry right now. You've got to start somewhere. I'm not seeing this as a slippery slope; rather a way to aid long-term interest.

Do you think WotC wants to be in the business of constantly checking secondary market prices and printing cards based on that to hold prices down in one of the formats? Really? That doesn't look like part of their business model to me and it's a slippery slope if they decided to try and make it part.

Two things: 1) um, who cares? It's not for us to say what should or shouldn't be their business model. This shouldn't be a factor in the discussion. 2) We know they listen to customer feedback--any good business would. When there's enough people complaining that Affinity was sucking the life out of Standard, they listened (so long arti-lands). When they heard enough people whining about land destruction and counterspells, they listened (hello Cancel). When enough people are bitching about the cost of entry to a supported format (assuming this is true), they should listen.

FoolofaTook

03-02-2010, 07:12 PM

YI'm not speaking for anyone but myself here; the issue I'd like to see addressed is 1) price stabilization (through new supply); 2) sustainable player base for eternal formats (specifically, Legacy). That some people bought cards in the last year at high prices and those cards will go down in price as new supply is added to the market and be upset, seems to less important than the continued price of entry and overall success of Legacy.

Price stabilization is a myth. There's nothing that WotC could do short of completely destroying the secondary market to stabilize prices in any of the formats. All WotC can do is print the cards that they want to sell and let the market go where it goes with that. Flooding the market with a particular card will indeed drive that card's price down, but it is an expensive proposition and WotC needs to make sure that they are profiting from the endeavor as well as the players. And there is the strong possibility of unintended consequences.

Everyone needs a manabase (i.e. duals) to play many competitive decks. It's the price of the lands that are the principal barrier to entry right now. You've got to start somewhere. I'm not seeing this as the same slippery slope as you.

And it would be the price of other things that would be the barrier when duals were suddenly cheaper. If the duals were not legal in Standard and Extended then you'd have dual prices dropping at the same time other Legacy staples went up as cheap dual buyers stocked their decks. You can't have it both ways unless you want to stipulate a Legacy wide reprint of many staples all at once. It would be classic bait and switch for WotC to reprint the duals and not other staples for awhile. That'd keep the secondary market rolling along just fine, with players spending big money on the cards most likely to be invalidated by future options, and it would allow as many players as wanted too to buy the hooks, the dual lands, that let them then spend a lot of money on other cards to play Legacy. Legacy itself would probably not drop much if at all in price, you'd just spend your money on the emerging staples in a much larger meta. If WotC wanted to move off of Standard and towards Legacy as the main business generator that's probably how they would do it.

When they heard enough people whining about land destruction and counterspells, they listened. When enough people are bitching about the cost of entry to format (assuming this is true), they should listen.

This made me laugh out loud. If they've found religion on counterspells it's very recent and clearly not fully developed yet. I'll give you the LD argument because the decision not to reprint Sinkhole in Revised was due to their unhappiness with landkill. It was a very short-sighted move on their part and lead directly to counterspells dominating.

Forbiddian

03-02-2010, 07:38 PM

People played violin while the Titanic sank. It takes Wizards months just to print the cards, to say nothing of actually putting together a set, commissioning artwork, templating, etc. Bannings have already been discussed to death as being a bad option.

Hope I'm not taking this out of context, but I don't get the metaphor. The band played on to keep passengers calm and prevent a widespread panic. It wasn't like they didn't notice that the ship was sinking, they were making a sacrifice to save as many lives as possible.

Although I agree with the post, I was just very confused by the metaphor.

@Smennen: What definition of investment did you use to graduate with highest honors from Unnamed University?

EDIT:
This made me laugh out loud. If they've found religion on counterspells it's very recent and clearly not fully developed yet. I'll give you the LD argument because the decision not to reprint Sinkhole in Revised was due to their unhappiness with landkill. It was a very short-sighted move on their part and lead directly to counterspells dominating.

lolwut If you didn't notice, Countermagic defaults at 1UU instead of UU as it had been since the start of Magic. Countermagic is probably the only realm of Magic that got worse on average since Mirage.

They're been printing more and more powerful stuff, except Countermagic, which has just slipped down by a casting cost or more. Wizards is certainly responding to the market research by making countermagic less common, more costly, and more conditional. For instance: Market research shows casual players hate to see creature spells countered and would rather have them be removed. They print Spell Pierce (which specifically can't counter creatures) and also print Doomblade, which is much better and more flexible than Essence Scatter. How do you not notice that?

FoolofaTook

03-02-2010, 07:55 PM

lolwut If you didn't notice, Countermagic defaults at 1UU instead of UU as it had been since the start of Magic. Countermagic is probably the only realm of Magic that got worse on average since Mirage.

They're been printing more and more powerful stuff, except Countermagic, which has just slipped down by a casting cost or more. Wizards is certainly responding to the market research by making countermagic less common, more costly, and more conditional. For instance: Market research shows casual players hate to see creature spells countered and would rather have them be removed. They print Spell Pierce (which specifically can't counter creatures) and also print Doomblade, which is much better and more flexible than Essence Scatter. How do you not notice that?

They printed Counterbalance in 2006. A permanent that counters spells and sticks around. From the standpoint of Standard I'll agree that they have controlled countermagic fairly well except for the odd aberration here and there. Spell Snare was pretty hot for awhile there.

Anusien

03-02-2010, 07:59 PM

Do people think the cards are available enough right now to sustain Legacy as a PTQ format? What would that do to the price of Force of Will?

DrJones

03-02-2010, 08:01 PM

They're been printing more and more powerful stuff, except Countermagic, which has just slipped down by a casting cost or more. Wizards is certainly responding to the market research by making countermagic less common, more costly, and more conditional. For instance: Market research shows casual players hate to see creature spells countered and would rather have them be removed. They print Spell Pierce (which specifically can't counter creatures) and also print Doomblade, which is much better and more flexible than Essence Scatter. How do you not notice that?It's not only casual players, even R&D members acknowledge that they feel worse when a spell is countered than when a permanent is destroyed. My theory is that after having seen ten of thousands of Counterspell and the same number of Terror, your subconscious tracks the number of times those spells fizzled, and because counterspells almost never fail, you get the feeling they are not as fair as Terror.

FoolofaTook

03-02-2010, 08:16 PM

It's not only casual players, even R&D members acknowledge that they feel worse when a spell is countered than when a permanent is destroyed. My theory is that after having seen ten of thousands of Counterspell and the same number of Terror, your subconscious tracks the number of times those spells fizzled, and because counterspells almost never fail, you get the feeling they are not as fair as Terror.

Countermagic is disliked because it grants too much control to one player over the other.

Bardo

03-02-2010, 09:34 PM

Price stabilization is a myth. There's nothing that WotC could do short of completely destroying the secondary market to stabilize prices in any of the formats. All WotC can do is print the cards that they want to sell and let the market go where it goes with that. Flooding the market with a particular card will indeed drive that card's price down, but it is an expensive proposition and WotC needs to make sure that they are profiting from the endeavor as well as the players. And there is the strong possibility of unintended consequences.

[Emphasis added.] Kind of getting at MMogg's comment above, but if you're going to approach the discussion with this (as I see it) hyperbolic mindset, I don't see how we can have an intelligent discussion. You can carry on without me. Feel free to take my bowing out any way you like. Cheers.

About counterspells (which I used as an example on how they use player feedback), you've totally missed the point. Let me dig up a reference so I can set that straight.

Edit. Quotes and sources.

"While I can see the fun that Counterspell provides its caster, it gets seriously marked down for the fun on the other side of the table. One of the major reasons we've weakened counterspells overall is that the player feedback is pretty clear—it's not fun when you never get to resolve your spells." - http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/mm/80

"We've done a lot of research, both in focus testing and in the field, and we have learned that people really hate it when their spells get countered. They take it as a personal affront: my opponent kept me from doing what I want to do. That's a terrible feeling. Mysteriously, those people do not feel nearly as bad when they cast a creature that immediately dies to a Lightning Bolt or a Doom Blade. They feel like their card actually did something, even though it really did just as little as the creature that got hit with an Essence Scatter. This may not make logical sense, but it is consistent with all of our observations. ... One of our jobs is to ensure that playing Magic is fun. I've heard complaints from Magic players about the quality of counterspells we print now, but when a single counterspell can inspire so much sadness, it's clear to us that we should not be pushing decks that can play twenty-one of them. We know that counterspells need to be part of Magic, and some of them need to be powerful. Many players enjoy countering their opponent's spells, and counterspells also serve as an important defense against expensive, powerful cards. However, making a beautiful mana curve of versatile and powerful counterspells like the one in Randy's deck is something we try to avoid. - http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/ld/72

There are others, you basically just need to do a global search on mtg.com and do different permutations of "fun," "counterspell," and "sadness."

FoolofaTook

03-02-2010, 10:10 PM

Smmenen

03-02-2010, 10:12 PM

And it would be the price of other things that would be the barrier when duals were suddenly cheaper. If the duals were not legal in Standard and Extended then you'd have dual prices dropping at the same time other Legacy staples went up as cheap dual buyers stocked their decks. You can't have it both ways unless you want to stipulate a Legacy wide reprint of many staples all at once.

We don't want it both ways.

The real problems in Legacy aren't Force of Will or even Tarmogoyf. While those are pressing, they pale in comparison to the problem of dual lands. So, let's stop talking about Tabernacle of Pendral Vale, and all of these other red herrings.

The issue is dual lands. Dual lands are the building blocks of the format. They are as important as basic land, if not more so. The fetchland + dual land interaction is BY FAR the most important interaction in the entire format.

Even if every single other Legacy staple went up in price by reprinting dual lands, you would still have plenty of other deck building options, and new ones can emerge. Outside of playing mono color decks, there are no good deck building options to fall back on if you don't have dual lands. End of story.

It would be classic bait and switch for WotC to reprint the duals and not other staples for awhile.

Not at all. You don't need Aether Vials or Lion's Eye Diamonds or even Tarmogoyfs to play Legacy. No matter what spells you play, if you don't want to play a mono color deck, you need dual lands. It's the fundamental building block of the format. There is no avoiding it.

That's the main issue, and that's why the Reserved List could very well badly harm Legacy. So let's stop talking about these other red herrings that Jason Jaco wants to divert attention to.

Bardo

03-02-2010, 10:26 PM

Read it, and as I said above: recent conversion. That's a Jan 2010 article that explicitly references the last two runaway decks in Standard before Jund: Faeries in 2008 with 11 counters and 5 Color Control in 2009 with 9.

This is completely besides the point. Above (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?16676-%5BPremium-Article%5D-Visiting-Wizards-Reprints-and-the-Reserved-List&p=433552&viewfull=1#post433552), I was addressing your comment about Wizards' business model. You said they shouldn't have to monitor the secondary market as part of their business model. I said, "meh, what does that have to do with anything?" it's mainly the issue of listening to customer feedback, as any sensible business needs to do. When and where they decided to nerf Counterspell is as germane to this topic as when they nerfed Affinity in Standard (i.e., it's not).

The important thing is listening to what the customer wants to continue using their product; otherwise, the product goes away. If (potential or existing) customers are concerned about the cost of entry into eternal formats -- and those barriers are substantially restrictive (which I believe they are these days) -- they would be wise to address the problem. Reprints of certain cards (mainly, the original dual lands) seems to be the easiest and most logical solution.

FWIW, I fully agree with Stephen's post above this.

FoolofaTook

03-02-2010, 10:54 PM

Not at all. You don't need Aether Vials or Lion's Eye Diamonds or even Tarmogoyfs to play Legacy. No matter what spells you play, if you don't want to play a mono color deck, you need dual lands. It's the fundamental building block of the format. There is no avoiding it.

That's the main issue, and that's why the Reserved List could very well badly harm Legacy. So let's stop talking about these other red herrings that Jason Jaco wants to divert attention to.

Buying dual lands and then playing replacements for the high-priced staples is a worse solution than just playing the dual-less decks that can be built now. Owning Tropical Islands but not being able to afford Goyfs, Engineered Explosives and Wastelands doesn't help new players out in the least, and those staples would increase a lot as duals dropped assuming they were not reprinted. Goyf is selling for $70+ now and he's not a 16 year old mistake that WotC has on a do not print list. His price, BTW, has dropped about 20% from it's high just before the GP.

Magic is an expensive hobby. You can't turn it into some kind of paradise for new players where cards just float down from the trees so they can play the game.

FoolofaTook

03-02-2010, 10:58 PM

This is completely besides the point. You're quoting a two month old article to indicate that WotC is responsive to their customer's concerns and input. All you had to do in your initial response to me was say: "well recently WotC has become much more responsive to their customers concerns and here is my evidence..." No argument there.

BTW, I found the defensive nature of the article very amusing, seems like WotC having listened to their customers about the frustration of counterspells (finally) is now trying to soothe all the customers who are annoyed because blue is too weak.

Smmenen

03-02-2010, 11:04 PM

Buying dual lands and then playing replacements for the high-priced staples is a worse solution than just playing the dual-less decks that can be built now.

Owning Tropical Islands but not being able to afford Goyfs, Engineered Explosives and Wastelands doesn't help new players out in the least,

I completely disagree. That's just nonsense.

Of course owning Trops helps new players more. You don't need Goyfs or Wastelands in order to use Trops. There are thousands and thousands of uses for Tropical Island.

Magic is an expensive hobby. You can't turn it into some kind of paradise for new players where cards just float down from the trees so they can play the game.

Of course not. That's a ridiculous thing to say.

No one is asking for some sort of communist paradise. As I said in the other thread, though, can you imagine if basic Forest cost $50? Well, dual lands are just as important to deck building in this format.

Then again, I know this doesn't bother you. You already expressed your contempt for Legacy earlier in this thread. If it dies, it dies was your philosophy.

FoolofaTook

03-02-2010, 11:15 PM

I completely disagree. That's just nonsense.

Of course owning Trops helps new players more. You don't need Goyfs or Wastelands in order to use Trops. There are thousands and thousands of uses for Tropical Island.

There may be thousands of uses, but probably 99% of them are non-competitive without Goyf.

No one is asking for some sort of communist paradise. As I said in the other thread, though, can you imagine if basic Forest cost $50? Well, dual lands are just as important to deck building in this format.

Well, actually dual lands are more important than basic forests, but they're also not required. The requirement for dual lands comes in if you want to be able to build a wide and varied selection of decks. That's what you purchase with dual-lands. That purchase comes alongside a large investment in other cards, without which you cannot build a lot of different decks, and the overall expense is fairly large. This is normal for Eternal magic. Show me an Eternal magic format that has ever been cheap to play. Being able to pick from all the cards ever printed, or nearly so, is an expensive process. Duals are the cheap part. You make your one time purchase and you're done. If you need to you can sell your duals and recoup the investment. The other cards you purchased to play Eternal? Well many of them won't be worth what you paid for them when you bought them. Duals are the safe investment.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

03-02-2010, 11:20 PM

There are 32 potential color combinations for a deck: five monocolor options, ten two-color options, ten three-color options, five four-color options, five-colors or colorless.

Of these, monocolor, five color, and colorless can be built effectively in Legacy without using duals.

In theory, if every color option were equally viable, the player that can't afford duals would have access to roughly 20% of the potential decks in the format. 80% would be out of their reach.

To drive the point home; only five decks put numbers into the Top 8s of the two big Legacy tournaments this past weekend, the Starcity Open and the much bigger GP Madrid: CounterTop, Zoo, ANT, UB Reanimator and Merfolk.

For the first time in a long time we have a clear snapshot of what the top tier of Legacy looks like. And, shock, four out of the five, 80%, have dual-fetch manabases.

The budget legacy player that wants to build a top tier deck is limited to Merfolk. And even then they can't build the version that actually won the Starcity Open, which ran Trops, fetches and Goyfs on top of Force of Wills and Wastelands.

Smmenen

03-02-2010, 11:22 PM

There may be thousands of uses, but probably 99% of them are non-competitive without Goyf.

Even if that were true, and I know its not, that doesn't invalidate the basic point, which is about dual lands generally, not Trop in particular. The point being that reprinting dual lands to lower the price helps new players more, even if the prices of other legacy cards go up as a result.

Well, actually dual lands are more important than basic forests, but they're also not required. The requirement for dual lands comes in if you want to be able to build a wide and varied selection of decks.

Um, what do you think we are talking about? That's what I've been saying for 5 pages now and in this article. Yes, if you want to build able to play ANYTHING that isn't mono colored, you need dual lands.

Dual lands reaching certain prices will harm legacy. The Reserved List has the potential to be a severe impedinent to the health of Legacy. There is nothing more to it.

We've already been through this before.

Duals are the cheap part. You make your one time purchase and you're done. If you need to you can sell your duals and recoup the investment.

hardly.

To buy a set of dual lands is basically akin to buying power, at this point. That's hardly cheap. And, what's more, as duals become more expensive, they will price out larger parts of the magic player base, particularly as magic continues to grow.

The bottom line is that you don't care. And I said earlier in this thread, and what you repeat here again, is your contempt for Eternal Magic, and you indifference, at best, or hostility at worst, to seeing it grow and thrive.

Well, I strongly disagree with your attitude and your opinion.

Wizards and this community wants to see Legacy thrive. If you don't like it, then go somewhere where people don't like Legacy.

Amon Amarth

03-02-2010, 11:34 PM

I think that it is folly to consider dual lands as investments. I'm pretty sure this has been covered already but Magic cards really shouldn't be viewed as such.

Also while I agree with Stephen that duals are the issue here and not FoW, Wasteland and Co., the aforementioned cards are going to become an issue soon enough with the current growth of the format as they are staples in many Legacy decks. However, unless WotC finds some way to distribute more dual lands to Magic players via reprints in a base set or whatnot people not owning Goyf wont matter because the damage will already have been done. Legacy will suffer the same fate as Vintage; a victim of it's own success.

Some Guy

03-03-2010, 12:08 AM

I am fine with duals being reprint , but I think that they should make them ugly. give them a white border , or even an ugly purple border like timeshift cards. they could say anything with purple border not standard legal , it would not be confusing like they make it out to be. foil dual land reprints would hurt unlimited / revised duals , which are the most duals in print. but I do not think ugly purple would as much , maybe that is just me.

DuxDucis

03-03-2010, 04:19 AM

It is worth noting that none of the big dealers really like the Reserved List either. And you would think that they have the most to lose, at least in the short-run.

The big dealers are not stupid. They know abolishing the Reserve List is good for long term profits. While their inventory of older singles will take a short term hit, as you yourself point out the value of Alpha and Beta cards are quite stable. The short term loss on inventory will be easily eclipsed by the sales of whatever form of reprint Wizard's chooses.

If Magic 2011 or a Chronicles 2 included reprints like the original duals, FoW, Mana Drain, Wasteland etc they will sell boxes and boxes and boxes and boxes of it. It is almost guaranteed to big the largest selling Magic release of all time.

SCG is selling FtV:Exiled for $99.99. Wizards lists the MSRP as $34.99. Obviously SCG is paying less than the MSRP to Wizards. If Legacy staples are reprinted like this instead of a large scale release, the exact same effect is likely to occur. The dealers will make money hand over fist.

Businesses don't think short term, at least not the good ones. All they have to is convince the player base that this is good for the game and they win.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/18/Scroogeswim.jpg

oldbsturgeon

03-03-2010, 12:55 PM

Hi I would like to say that I read this site on a very regular basis, but have yet to feel the need to post anything. I do think though this topic to be very intriguing with a lot of input as opinions.
Here is what I conclude from reprints:

I am in a position to talk about collecting things as much as anyone, as I collect comics, coins, records, and did collect action figures and once a long time ago, sports cards. In each of the above listed area, the original version of each item is the most desired version of the item.

Right now I mostly deal in records, specifically jazz records. In records, the label Blue Note is the most sought after, and original mint/nm versions of these albums commanding pretty good prices.
One can certainly buy the music or a later pressing, or even CDs but the original still holds the higest value.

It is true that the original versions of cards will maintain the highest value despite reprints, but there is one thing that differs from all the other collectible items I mentioned and Magic the Gathering.
There is more direct interaction with what you are collecting. After all this is a game meant to be played with others.

What I see this meaning is that the majority of those 70,000 playsets of revised dual lands become the affected group, and never the original versions.
So what happens to them then. This is what I am unsure of. Though I do know this will be the primary target hit.

Other collectible areas do not really take a hit as Magic cards would, simply because the reprint is not as significant, going back to the interactive aspect of the game itself.
Still will that said, because this is a game, I would like to see more people play a game than not, and if this means printing cards, it should happen

TheInfamousBearAssassin

03-03-2010, 12:55 PM

The big dealers are not stupid. They know abolishing the Reserve List is good for long term profits. While their inventory of older singles will take a short term hit, as you yourself point out the value of Alpha and Beta cards are quite stable. The short term loss on inventory will be easily eclipsed by the sales of whatever form of reprint Wizard's chooses.

If Magic 2011 or a Chronicles 2 included reprints like the original duals, FoW, Mana Drain, Wasteland etc they will sell boxes and boxes and boxes and boxes of it. It is almost guaranteed to big the largest selling Magic release of all time.

SCG is selling FtV:Exiled for $99.99. Wizards lists the MSRP as $34.99. Obviously SCG is paying less than the MSRP to Wizards. If Legacy staples are reprinted like this instead of a large scale release, the exact same effect is likely to occur. The dealers will make money hand over fist.

Businesses don't think short term, at least not the good ones. All they have to is convince the player base that this is good for the game and they win.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/18/Scroogeswim.jpg

And God knows the last thing we really want is Legacy being more popular and affordable.

DuxDucis

03-03-2010, 02:20 PM

And God knows the last thing we really want is Legacy being more popular and affordable.

My point is the big dealers have nothing to lose. The math supports that original versions of cards hold their value. Reprints are win-win for them. It is in their best interested to have the Reserved List gone.

I'm not sure what your angle here is.

MattH

03-03-2010, 03:02 PM

My point is the big dealers have nothing to lose. The math supports that original versions of cards hold their value. Reprints are win-win for them. It is in their best interested to have the Reserved List gone.

I'm not sure what your angle here is.

He's just being snarky.

SlopeeJ

03-03-2010, 04:16 PM

FoolofaTook

03-03-2010, 10:49 PM

FoolofaTook, you can't honestly say you can't see the point about dual lands? I'm not even sure if you read the article, but reprinting of the dual lands will have minimal effect on the prices of older duals and it could open the doors for more players to play legacy. Then you go to say that dual lands are not required, which is just plain wrong. I do agree with you though, duals are not just the problem all the cards getting expensive is the problem. So printing the duals will help but something has to be done about the expensive cards in general.

Arrrrrr. Just when I thought I was out they dragged me back in...

Ok, let me try to make the point once, and coherently so that everybody understands where I am coming from. Magic The Gathering is a wonderful game. It's not wonderful because of Vintage or Legacy or Extended or Draft and certainly not because of Standard. It's wonderful because a huge number of cards have been printed over the years and the possibilities in deck construction really are kind of limitless, although in any given format only a fraction of the decks that can be constructed are actually competitive.

Those of you who have played against me and the decks I construct know that I am rarely interested in using the most powerful cards to try to blow out the field. In fact I tend to build oddball decks that do very strange things, sometimes effectively (as those of you who have watched a Lucent Liminid fly gracefully over my Moat under the protection of a Sterling Grove, while your ravening Goblins watched helplessly in their great mass on the other side know) and sometimes ineffectively (as those of you who have Stifled, Wastelanded, Spell Snared and generally made the same deck miserable before swooping in for a kill with a Goyf know.) I'm not a power player at all. My rating for Eternal formats last I checked was in the low 1700's. I'm not interested in destroying the field and winning most of the time. I'm interested in play-testing my decks against real competition and that's why I bother to go to tourneys at all.

To me Legacy is great, because it does allow best use of your existing collection to compete on a long-term basis. I'm under no illusions however that Legacy is going to last and prosper as an Eternal format till the end of eternity. It really isn't. It's going to eventually have happen to it what happened to Vintage and it will recede to become just a hobbyist's sport played by a dedicated few (although that few will probably be 100x the number of Vintage players for reasons of card supply.) I should say at this point that I really doubt Legacy is going to decline any time in the near future but having started play in 1993 I'm aware that we're likely to have Magic around for a long time and I suspect there will be many more formats created before I leave the scene.

The decline of Legacy will not be because dual lands will be too expensive, it'll be because the entire format will be too expensive for people to afford as new players. There are hundreds of staples already in Legacy, although only a few dozen are must have. New expensive staples are added every year, often several at a time. WotC, for all the talk about how they want to make Magic more accessible to people, has added a new rarity level of Mythic designed to keep secondary prices high. They've already printed at least one card (Elspeth, Knight-Errant) that everybody would want 2 or 3 of if they could afford it. They have others, like Jace, The Mind Sculptor sitting in the wings waiting to become the new $50 chase rare. They will always have cards that they want to be very expensive because the secondary market helps them sell Magic as a hot property.

What all of this means is that Legacy is, and always will be, expensive to play, even if dual lands come down to $5 apiece. Eternal Magic is always going to have $15-50 dollar cards feeding into it on a regular basis, because that's what works as a marketing model for WotC. If they stop printing hot eternal ready cards they wind up with problems selling the product. The slumps in Magic sales have concided pretty well with the periods when WotC found religion and decided to tone down the quality of the cards. They don't need to make all the best cards rares but they do need to have a few chase rares (now rares and mythics) out there in each set to sell product and so they do that. Nothing wrong here, BTW, it's a good business model and it keeps us all buying cards.

The primary issue that I have is that I know we're playing a zero-sum game here as players of Legacy when we look at the issue of what is causing the rise in prices in the format. Pointing at duals, which most Legacy players have accumulated over the years as they played, as the primary culprit misses the entire point of the rise in prices. The rise in prices is because many more players are playing Legacy right now than ever before and card prices have shot up across the board. People point at duals and say that's the biggest problem. Well, it's not. The biggest problem is the number of people playing the game. When I rejoined Legacy in mid 2006 I was pleasantly surprised to discover that my Tropical Islands had risen from about the $5 they were worth in 1996 to about $20. That was a pretty good return for a decade of sitting in sleeves on the top shelf of my closet. One of the first cards I purchased in the secondary market was a playset of Engineered Explosives. I got them for $14 for the 4. I look around now and my Tropical Islands have about doubled in the rush to Madrid. I can find them easily on line for under $40. The Engineered Explosives? They have quintupled in value in the same time frame. They're worth $18 apiece now. The same is true for a lot of other staples. You could still buy Tarmogoyfs for about $40 for a playset 3 months after they hit the scene. They're $280 a playset at this point. That's 7x the value they had before they became the it card in Legacy. All the staples are going through the roof.

Guess what? WotC is not going to regularly reprint the Legacy staples for us. They will reprint a few here and there but they service Standard. That's the format they want to succeed and do really well. It, alongside Drafts, is the lifeblood of Magic for WotC. What WotC WILL do, and I heartily approve, is to continue to print good, strong, in some cases ridiculously powerful cards for Legacy to latch onto. Many of these will be mythic and rare. They will be expensive as hell over time to acquire and Legacy Magic is going to remain a very, very expensive proposition for as long as it lasts.

In that situation I don't want them dropping the prices of duals. All that that will do is to take my current investment in the game and make it less valuable. All it will do is to bring many more players into the meta to compete with me for new Legacy cards and drive those card prices continuously upwards, making Legacy even more expensive to compete in than it is now. There's no gain for players who have heavily invested in this format to suddenly see a new flood of players enter the arena to compete for cards. It's not like you can't get a good Legacy tourney going basically anywhere in the country with a reasonable population. Those happen all the time.

The bottom line is that anybody who thinks that reprinting duals is going to make Legacy cheaper really hasn't looked at the underlying reasons it has gotten expensive. It's gotten expensive because lots of new players are playing the format. Making more new players will just drive prices up, even if the duals are reprinted. This problem will just get worse over time. Who saw The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale spiking over $300 at one point? That's not even a staple. And it certainly isn't a card that WotC is going to see any need to reprint.

wcm8

03-03-2010, 11:45 PM

Re: Mythic rares, sure, they lead to people having to crack more packs to get a playset, but they also coincide with sets that have a reduced number of rares. Beta had 117 rares. Zedikar has 15 Mythic and 53 rares. And it's not typical that only the Mythic rares become chase legacy cards. Often, uncommon cards become legacy staples (eg: Path to Exile, Ghostly Prison).

Regardless, I think that the mana base should not be the barrier of entry to play a deck. Sure, other cards might prevent all those but the most dedicated players to play them, but if roughly a third (okay maybe more like a 1/4) of a deck's cost is tied up in its lands, that's an obvious barrier of entry to potential Legacy players. And as you said yourself, a lot of people sitting on collections of Duals probably got them at times when they weren't so prohibitively expensive.

You bring up an interesting point about a big player influx effecting the cost of other legacy staples, and I think I would agree with it to an extent. But some of those staples should arguably be reprinted, eg: Force of Will.

And re: niche cards like Tabernacle of Pendrell Vale, well, so be it. Not everyone has to be capable of building every deck, and if 'annoying' cards like Tabernacle, Moat, etc. see limited play then that's not necessarily a bad thing. The meta-game will evolve accordingly.

Nebuchadnezzar

03-04-2010, 12:45 AM

I can't wait for WotC to reprint the duals. I've always wished for the day to come when I can play all my cards without sleeves again... It'll be just like the old days. Everyone (cuz we're all players, not collectors) can stop using sleeves because the cards aren't even worth protecting.

What's the two things that would make me, a customer of magic for the past 15 or so years, stop buying Magic cards? ... I. The game stopped being fun. II. The cards became worthless! What better way to make the game not fun, than to reprint all the most powerful cards from the past 15 years, in a simple and easy to obtain package? And what better way to make the cards worthless, than to do the exact same thing? Whether it's a TCG or CCG, how fun is Trading when everyone has the same & best cards?

I don't play Standard, or Extended. Guess why? Because they are too expensive! I really wish WotC would make these formats less expensive for me. I don't have shocklands. But they are sooooo necessary for me to play extended. What am I to do? Complain! I can't be resourceful, and make another deck, that doesn't rely on these, can I? I can't afford Jaces, or Baneslayers; woe is me. Others are preventing me from enjoying a game. I have every right to enjoy it. And someone (not me) should do something about it. I am a helpless chick. Feed me. Regurgitate into my mouth! Because I cannot go out and obtain it any other way, than for someone else to do it for me.

How on earth can you argue that Legacy is somehow suffering? GP Madrid was the largest Magic tournament in the history of the game! That is an un-arguable FACT. That's what arguments should be based on. But they are not. Every other argument I've heard is based on "predictions", future-sight and fortune-telling. Doomsday-ing. Or how about the FACT that Tarmogoyf has already begun a decline in value? Please people stop saying the format is dying when it's clearly not. Stop saying it has cancer when it just passed it's latest physical. Let the market work. This isn't Vintage where you need Black Lotus, otherwise your deck is worse. Will Legacy really be better off, when every deck is ANT, CounterTop, or Zoo? Maybe there will be more players, but there will be also a less variety in decks. I love Legacy tournaments cuz I see so many different decks. I see people being resourceful. I see ingenuity. I doubt a Legacy, where are the staples were reprinted/easy-to-obtain, would be the same as it is today.

MMogg

03-04-2010, 01:07 AM

Every other argument I've heard is based on "predictions", future-sight and fortune-telling. Doomsday-ing.

Do you mean, like this:

What's the two things that would make me, a customer of magic for the past 15 or so years, stop buying Magic cards? ... I. The game stopped being fun. II. The cards became worthless! What better way to make the game not fun, than to reprint all the most powerful cards from the past 15 years, in a simple and easy to obtain package? And what better way to make the cards worthless, than to do the exact same thing?

I believe the word is "touché".

Reprints don't equal worthless originals. You can check out Ben's (from Starcitygames) articles for proof of that.

Fun is subjective and although you qualified your statement by saying "me", it nevertheless hints at a generalizable quality. For me, fun IS everyone has access to the same cards, not I stomp all the poor people with my expensive deck. Been there, done that, it's boring. I want to be challenged and challenge others, mentally not financially.

Nebuchadnezzar

03-04-2010, 02:00 AM

Do you mean, like this:

No, I meant like this:
Will Legacy really be better off, when every deck is ANT, CounterTop, or Zoo? Maybe there will be more players, but there will be also a less variety in decks. I love Legacy tournaments cuz I see so many different decks. I see people being resourceful. I see ingenuity. I doubt a Legacy, where are the staples were reprinted/easy-to-obtain, would be the same as it is today.
I thought that one was much more obvious a doomsday-ing prediction. :tongue:

Reprints don't equal worthless originals. You can check out Ben's (from Starcitygames) articles for proof of that.
Most people don't have betas. I don't know why everyone is arguing that Alpha's and Beta's won't fall in price, which, while it is true, isn't what 99% (made up number) of the players own. Pointing out that 1% of cards won't fall in price is like saying Global Warming is fine for people in Antarctica.

Fun is subjective and although you qualified your statement by saying "me", it nevertheless hints at a generalizable quality. For me, fun IS everyone has access to the same cards, not I stomp all the poor people with my expensive deck. Been there, done that, it's boring. I want to be challenged and challenge others, mentally not financially.

I think what you are looking for then, is a Card Game. Not a Trading Card Game, not a Collectible Card Game. Not Magic... What you want to play is something like Hearts or Chess. Magic has always had the "rich kid syndrome". And it probably always will. Go into any FNM across the world and you can see it in action. So long as they have random booster packs, it will always have this element. Garfield knew this, which was why ante was in the game. But that's a whole 'nother topic.

I'm just so lost on the backward-ness and witch-burning style paranoia that seems to have infected otherwise sane individuals. Since when are increased popularity and rising values a bad omen? Like Legacy is seeing a huge growth spurt, people's collections are doubling in value, and somehow it's considered this horrible thing? You know what's worse? People leaving the game. The value of Magic cards declining. That's so far worse. Like it seems so obvious to me. I just can't understand how people can take the side that huge tournaments, big payouts, increased interest... all these things are precursors to something that's going to destroy the format? Like so bad that an immediate change is needed to something that has been in place for 15 years?

I just hope that, in people's haste to save Legacy from this "foretold" death, that they don't end up fulfilling their own prophecy, by trying to save something that doesn't need saving in the first place.

MMogg

03-04-2010, 02:22 AM

No, I meant like this:
I thought that one was much more obvious a doomsday-ing prediction. :tongue:

Most people don't have betas. I don't know why everyone is arguing that Alpha's and Beta's won't fall in price, which, while it is true, isn't what 99% (made up number) of the players own. Pointing out that 1% of cards won't fall in price is like saying Global Warming is fine for people in Antarctica.

I think what you are looking for then, is a Card Game. Not a Trading Card Game, not a Collectible Card Game. Not Magic... What you want to play is something like Hearts or Chess. Magic has always had the "rich kid syndrome". And it probably always will. Go into any FNM across the world and you can see it in action. So long as they have random booster packs, it will always have this element. Garfield knew this, which was why ante was in the game. But that's a whole 'nother topic.

I'm just so lost on the backward-ness and witch-burning style paranoia that seems to have infected otherwise sane individuals. Since when are increased popularity and rising values a bad omen? Like Legacy is seeing a huge growth spurt, people's collections are doubling in value, and somehow it's considered this horrible thing? You know what's worse? People leaving the game. The value of Magic cards declining. That's so far worse. Like it seems so obvious to me. I just can't understand how people can take the side that huge tournaments, big payouts, increased interest... all these things are precursors to something that's going to destroy the format? Like so bad that an immediate change is needed to something that has been in place for 15 years?

I just hope that, in people's haste to save Legacy from this "foretold" death, that they don't end up fulfilling their own prophecy, by trying to save something that doesn't need saving in the first place.

Actually this second post of yours has much less vitriol and is easier to see where you're coming from. Yeah, I can sympathize with the distaste of hysteria that is going on, but I think it's happening for two reasons. One is that people are wondering about the long-term viability of a format that is just now coming out of its shell. I think people are nervous that it will become like Vintage, although I hate that beaten-to-death far-from-reality comparison myself. Reason two is the ridiculousness with which prices jump, almost artificially so. Especially in December/January nearly any card/deck that won some tournament skyrocketed in price. I think that led to a hysteria of getting in on something before others/I miss out. That hysteria has trickled over into the debate of card prices.

Growth is good, but just like the housing market extremely rapid growth is not usually good. Slow and steady growth is usually good. When Tarmogoyf went from $25 to $70 in six months, that caused a panic. I think many people bring up Tarmo because of his unique position as the only creature played in nearly 50% of top 8 decks. Also, he's a recently printed card, comparatively speaking.

So, I can agree/understand your feelings towards the hysteria, but at the same time, I think you can understand why it's happening. These are unprecedented and rapidly changing times.

Also, no, I don't mean that everyone should necessarily have every card, but have access to them. There's a slight difference, but not merely a semantic one. I think most decks should be within affordability and not have to relegate new players to some tier 3 decks. I think that "buy in" margin can be generally managed if it were focussed on. And when I said "originals" I didn't mean Alpha/Beta per se. Ben's article, for example, looked at the FTV series.

jazzykat

03-04-2010, 02:24 AM

TheInfamousBearAssassin

03-04-2010, 02:40 AM

I know everyone is talking primaily about the manabase and I think that this needs to be taken further. You can have duals but without Tarmogoyf, Fow, etc. You'll just be playing watered down versions of decks. I would rather play a powerful 2 color deck just missing a few duals instead of 3 color thresh with werebere instead of goyf. I'm sorry to say more than dual lands need to be made accessible.

Duals, Force of Will. Tarmogoyf, frankly, needs to be banned. But other than those everything can be handled via promos. No reason player rewards can't be cards that will still be worth something in a year.

He's just being snarky.

That's part of it, but a larger part is concern for the long-term health of the format.

Arrrrrr. Just when I thought I was out they dragged me back in...

Ok, let me try to make the point once, and coherently so that everybody understands where I am coming from. Magic The Gathering is a wonderful game. It's not wonderful because of Vintage or Legacy or Extended or Draft and certainly not because of Standard. It's wonderful because a huge number of cards have been printed over the years and the possibilities in deck construction really are kind of limitless, although in any given format only a fraction of the decks that can be constructed are actually competitive.

Those of you who have played against me and the decks I construct know that I am rarely interested in using the most powerful cards to try to blow out the field. In fact I tend to build oddball decks that do very strange things, sometimes effectively (as those of you who have watched a Lucent Liminid fly gracefully over my Moat under the protection of a Sterling Grove, while your ravening Goblins watched helplessly in their great mass on the other side know) and sometimes ineffectively (as those of you who have Stifled, Wastelanded, Spell Snared and generally made the same deck miserable before swooping in for a kill with a Goyf know.) I'm not a power player at all. My rating for Eternal formats last I checked was in the low 1700's. I'm not interested in destroying the field and winning most of the time. I'm interested in play-testing my decks against real competition and that's why I bother to go to tourneys at all.

To me Legacy is great, because it does allow best use of your existing collection to compete on a long-term basis. I'm under no illusions however that Legacy is going to last and prosper as an Eternal format till the end of eternity. It really isn't. It's going to eventually have happen to it what happened to Vintage and it will recede to become just a hobbyist's sport played by a dedicated few (although that few will probably be 100x the number of Vintage players for reasons of card supply.) I should say at this point that I really doubt Legacy is going to decline any time in the near future but having started play in 1993 I'm aware that we're likely to have Magic around for a long time and I suspect there will be many more formats created before I leave the scene.

The decline of Legacy will not be because dual lands will be too expensive, it'll be because the entire format will be too expensive for people to afford as new players. There are hundreds of staples already in Legacy, although only a few dozen are must have. New expensive staples are added every year, often several at a time. WotC, for all the talk about how they want to make Magic more accessible to people, has added a new rarity level of Mythic designed to keep secondary prices high. They've already printed at least one card (Elspeth, Knight-Errant) that everybody would want 2 or 3 of if they could afford it. They have others, like Jace, The Mind Sculptor sitting in the wings waiting to become the new $50 chase rare. They will always have cards that they want to be very expensive because the secondary market helps them sell Magic as a hot property.

What all of this means is that Legacy is, and always will be, expensive to play, even if dual lands come down to $5 apiece. Eternal Magic is always going to have $15-50 dollar cards feeding into it on a regular basis, because that's what works as a marketing model for WotC. If they stop printing hot eternal ready cards they wind up with problems selling the product. The slumps in Magic sales have concided pretty well with the periods when WotC found religion and decided to tone down the quality of the cards. They don't need to make all the best cards rares but they do need to have a few chase rares (now rares and mythics) out there in each set to sell product and so they do that. Nothing wrong here, BTW, it's a good business model and it keeps us all buying cards.

The primary issue that I have is that I know we're playing a zero-sum game here as players of Legacy when we look at the issue of what is causing the rise in prices in the format. Pointing at duals, which most Legacy players have accumulated over the years as they played, as the primary culprit misses the entire point of the rise in prices. The rise in prices is because many more players are playing Legacy right now than ever before and card prices have shot up across the board. People point at duals and say that's the biggest problem. Well, it's not. The biggest problem is the number of people playing the game. When I rejoined Legacy in mid 2006 I was pleasantly surprised to discover that my Tropical Islands had risen from about the $5 they were worth in 1996 to about $20. That was a pretty good return for a decade of sitting in sleeves on the top shelf of my closet. One of the first cards I purchased in the secondary market was a playset of Engineered Explosives. I got them for $14 for the 4. I look around now and my Tropical Islands have about doubled in the rush to Madrid. I can find them easily on line for under $40. The Engineered Explosives? They have quintupled in value in the same time frame. They're worth $18 apiece now. The same is true for a lot of other staples. You could still buy Tarmogoyfs for about $40 for a playset 3 months after they hit the scene. They're $280 a playset at this point. That's 7x the value they had before they became the it card in Legacy. All the staples are going through the roof.

Guess what? WotC is not going to regularly reprint the Legacy staples for us. They will reprint a few here and there but they service Standard. That's the format they want to succeed and do really well. It, alongside Drafts, is the lifeblood of Magic for WotC. What WotC WILL do, and I heartily approve, is to continue to print good, strong, in some cases ridiculously powerful cards for Legacy to latch onto. Many of these will be mythic and rare. They will be expensive as hell over time to acquire and Legacy Magic is going to remain a very, very expensive proposition for as long as it lasts.

In that situation I don't want them dropping the prices of duals. All that that will do is to take my current investment in the game and make it less valuable. All it will do is to bring many more players into the meta to compete with me for new Legacy cards and drive those card prices continuously upwards, making Legacy even more expensive to compete in than it is now. There's no gain for players who have heavily invested in this format to suddenly see a new flood of players enter the arena to compete for cards. It's not like you can't get a good Legacy tourney going basically anywhere in the country with a reasonable population. Those happen all the time.

The bottom line is that anybody who thinks that reprinting duals is going to make Legacy cheaper really hasn't looked at the underlying reasons it has gotten expensive. It's gotten expensive because lots of new players are playing the format. Making more new players will just drive prices up, even if the duals are reprinted. This problem will just get worse over time. Who saw The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale spiking over $300 at one point? That's not even a staple. And it certainly isn't a card that WotC is going to see any need to reprint.

Tabernacle could easily be a promo. Really, this is silly. Magic cards are pieces of cardboard with ink. There's nothing limiting Wizards from printing supply except worries about the secondary market.

You're clearly not interested in the long term health of the game. Those who are seem to be pretty universal in supporting reprints. Reprints are clearly going to be necessary either now or later if Legacy is to remain as a format. It would be better to do it sooner rather than later and avoid drop offs in interest.

And please don't use this "I build my own decks" crutch. I build my own decks. I just don't use that as a crutch to justify a lack of competitiveness. Even top tier decks still had to be built by someone, even if these are often collaborative processes. But this is a challenge that is assumed voluntarily, not an cross to bear.

Maveric78f

03-04-2010, 03:06 AM

I think that the lack of cards availabilities concerns more P3K than anything else in legacy. I would feel sorry if these were banned. I would also feel sorry if they were reprinted, because I spent a lot of time to find my 5 P3K staples, why I don't play anymore btw. But, most of all, I'd be very happy if either one solution was made in order to make the format more accessible and thus to make legacy more popular.

eq.firemind

03-04-2010, 03:29 AM

Looks like they started to reprint money cards (http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=173106).
The next one on this line should be Grindstone, Tabernacle or some other niche card...

SlopeeJ

03-04-2010, 03:54 AM

In response to foolofatook's novel, its obvious that you are not concerned with legacy so I see trying to make valid points with you will get us no where. It has already been stated (with data backup) that reprinting old cards will not make you vast card collection worthless.

Some people actually like playing legacy and would like to have better/more access to certain cards. No one is saying magic should be free and everyone should have the same cards.

Coming out with a masters set to be released over a year (maybe 2) with old cards in it sounds pretty awesome to me. Just like all sets they have good rares and bad rares. You never know you might get the wasteland or dual land, but maybe you will pull the jank rare thats old but doesn't see play. Its kinda like the zendikar priceless treasures all over again. I'm sure that helped drive sales a little for wizards.

Why shouldn't a card like Tabernacle be reprinted? Magic cards are getting more expensive because more people are playing, so if you more cards are available they wouldn't be as expensive?Supply and demand? I don't have any degrees to back that statement up

Mr.C

03-04-2010, 03:55 AM

Looks like they started to reprint money cards (http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=173106).
The next one on this line should be Grindstone, Tabernacle or some other niche card...

Tabernacle would be sweet.

MMogg

03-04-2010, 04:37 AM

Tabernacle would be sweet.

As sweet as it would be, I doubt it. I can see them printing PD, because he's only $25, but a $250 card... I doubt it.

jrsthethird

03-04-2010, 08:37 AM

I don't play Standard, or Extended. Guess why? Because they are too expensive! I really wish WotC would make these formats less expensive for me. I don't have shocklands. But they are sooooo necessary for me to play extended. What am I to do? Complain! I can't be resourceful, and make another deck, that doesn't rely on these, can I? I can't afford Jaces, or Baneslayers; woe is me. Others are preventing me from enjoying a game. I have every right to enjoy it. And someone (not me) should do something about it. I am a helpless chick. Feed me. Regurgitate into my mouth! Because I cannot go out and obtain it any other way, than for someone else to do it for me.

Run White Weenie or some other mono-colored deck in Extended. Or just buy a set of shocklands, they're less than $10 apiece now. Make a deck in Standard that doesn't run Baneslayer or Jace. Be creative. You can put all the good cards in your deck that you want but if you can't play the game right it ain't worth shit.

eq.firemind

03-04-2010, 09:02 AM

Unfortunatelty, the next semi-expensive reprint is not Tabernacle. It's Natural Order (http://sales.starcitygames.com//carddisplay.php?product=173021)...

jazzykat

03-04-2010, 10:02 AM

You know, everyone is saying let's not reprint niche cards...why not?

IMO if you start reprinting and toss the reserve list, it is stupid not to reprint things that are needed for the format. Whoopdy shit, you reprint the dual lands and with the increased interest in the format so the other non-reprinted staples, and not so staple cards double in price again. Wow, great business for the card dealers but how does it help the players if the the price to play competitive deck X stays about the same.

EDIT: I love that they are doing judge promos. Putting cards directly into the hands of players/judges instead of card shops.

While we are on the subject, I have nothing against card shops but they need to charge more than a non-business to stay operating thus their prices should be higher as you primarily paying extra for convenience and reputability.

DownSyndromeKarl

03-04-2010, 10:44 AM

SpatulaOfTheAges

03-04-2010, 10:54 AM

mossivo1986

03-04-2010, 11:11 AM

they usually do uncommons for FNM promos, right? three words: Force of Will.

haha. seriously though, Eff the secondary market. Someone's going to lose money sooner or later, that's the nature of investing. Make the game more accessible.

I second the force comment.

I hold true to the feeling that wizards should reprint the duals, but do it in a way that screws only the dealers :). They should always be the ones to get hozed first as they are always the ones with the last laugh. Just 1 primary example. Stifle at gp chicago was 25$. I can't imagine goyfs at that rate going for much less then starcity premium in madrid.

The other problem is noob dealers tend to go to noob sites and rate their prices rambunctiously high. There has to be a way to control the secondary market and mantain some sort of balance in this format right now. 50 dollar force of wills and 75 dollar goyfs make the format ridiculously hard to play.

Allow 5 prox tournaments. Something....

socialite

03-04-2010, 11:14 AM

If that's the way the wind is blowing, let no one say I do not also blow.

Reprints are going to happen. Reprints have to happen for the long term health of the format.

A couple people will lose some value in the short term. If those people weren't planning on the long term, and don't actually enjoy the benefits of a healthy format, they should have put their money elsewhere.

I'm not sure where the argument is.

I think people with large investments would disagree.

If the secondary market tanks Magic will lose the collectible aspect except for fringe cards like Edgar, it will just turn into other CCG’s like Pokemon, where nothing holds real value. If I stop caring about my collection I stop caring about this game and eventually stop playing.

I understand where all of you are coming from in regards to accessibility and for the health of the format and thus I agree with reprints to a certain extent. If there is no way around reprints due to demand I at least hope they keep some semblance of the Reserve List and not reprint Power Nine.

Maybe I am taking your post the wrong way but it comes off like you really don’t care about people with large monetary investments in this game solely because you think they should have made a more wise choice of investing. It comes off as pompous and I could as easily say that I disagree with reprints because all the people who want them are people who are cheap and refuse to dump the same amount of money into the game as myself. It’s stupid and off base, at least respect where people like myself are coming from. Losing money sucks period.

Nightmare

03-04-2010, 11:23 AM

socialite

03-04-2010, 12:18 PM

Look dude.

I have alpha/beta/fbb duals. I have power. I have basically any blue deck in Legacy completely foiled out.

I have a collection that can put a fair down payment on a house.

I am FOR reprints of any cards in Legacy that will make this format better. You know why? Because I'm not getting these cards so I can sell them for a house. I have a mutual fund for that purpose. I have these cards because I love playing this game and I get a hard on for making people jealous when we play in events. That's really what "pimp" boils down to, regardless of what any of the other people who do it say. It's for personal gratification - and nothing else.

The people who have actual investments into these cards - the collectors, the store owners, the profiteers - they're all on board with reprints, because they recognize that their small hit in the short term will lead to profits in the long term as the game continues to thrive. The only people bitching are the people who have some reason to think that they'll be selling their cards to stop playing in some near future. "Cashing out," if you will. If you have no interest in the long term health of the format (which is tied to the long term health of the game, whether you're willing to accept that fact or not), then I have nothing further to gain from you or your opinion on this matter.

I apologize. I didn’t realize I would be at fault for wishing items I put down hard earned cash for to retain their value and for a company to stick to it’s word. I’m sorry you don’t care about your collection however I do. I have yet to see any decent evidence to suggest that reprints of high end cards are not going to cause their value to tank even in the long run. If you really think reprinting everything is the way to go then that is your opinion and you are entitled to it the same way I am entitled to my own.

Format health is a top priority for me. Even in New England Vintage has been on a decline and I would like to see it improve. It may seem trivial to some of you but seeing cards like the Power 9 reprinted as Japanese foils or offered in “Premium Foil Box Sets” cheapens the game for me and makes it less enjoyable, a loss of the same personal gratification you mentioned.

sourcefire

03-04-2010, 12:54 PM

Format health is a top priority for me.

It may seem trivial to some of you but seeing cards like the Power 9 reprinted as Japanese foils or offered in “Premium Foil Box Sets” cheapens the game for me and makes it less enjoyable

I think it's incredibly hard to agree that the format health would not be improved by more people becoming involved in the particular format and that this is accomplished by increasing the supply of the needed cards for the format whose pricetags are currently pricing out potential format participants. This trend is likely to worsen rather than improve. Yet your stance that reprints personally make the game less enjoyable is directly counter to your "format health is a top priorty" statement.

I think the MPR program would be a great way to increase the supply of staples as well as increase overall event participation (personally, I would make an effort to attend more events if I knew I was going to get a goyf in the mail rather than a lightning bolt - I don't think it's a stretch to say that I wouldn't be alone). However, this pales in comparison to the revenue WotC would make with a paper Masters Edition. Business-wise, as soon as the company makes the determination that the tangible printing costs and intangible cost of the PR hit from ending the reserve list policy (intangible costs being quite hard to calculate, of course) is outweighted by the revenues from reprints, this plan makes the most sense from WotC's perspective.

Meister_Kai

03-04-2010, 01:19 PM

I apologize. I didn’t realize I would be at fault for wishing items I put down hard earned cash for to retain their value and for a company to stick to it’s word. I’m sorry you don’t care about your collection however I do. I have yet to see any decent evidence to suggest that reprints of high end cards are not going to cause their value to tank even in the long run. If you really think reprinting everything is the way to go then that is your opinion and you are entitled to it the same way I am entitled to my own.

Format health is a top priority for me. Even in New England Vintage has been on a decline and I would like to see it improve. It may seem trivial to some of you but seeing cards like the Power 9 reprinted as Japanese foils or offered in “Premium Foil Box Sets” cheapens the game for me and makes it less enjoyable, a loss of the same personal gratification you mentioned.

We've been over this time and time again, multiple prints of Wrath of God and Birds of Paradise did not "tank" the value of the orginals. Were these not "high end" cards until fairly recently? If these are not "high end cards", then what are?

Also, I read a lot of collectors who apparently all buy into the slippery slope side of things. When you say things like "reprinting everything" do you honestly believe Wizards will reprint the entire P9, or hell, the entire reserved list, just because they could? Nobody, and I mean nobody with a brain in their head wants the rookie cards of Magic reprinted. If that happened, I would be pissed off with you (and no, I don't own any P9).

It is basically unstated fact that Vintage is the rich man's format. Everyone knows and excepts this, because isn't that what it more or less was designed to be? However, Legacy was not designed to become the rich man's format. Therefore, if one sees there is a possibility it could become such, shouldn't we take action? I understand how you can see this as just blind "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" mentality, but when the co-owner or whatever of the Magic world's largest secondary market retailer comes out and says "yeah, this reprint thing should maybe happen", don't you think that means something?

I'm not saying Ben is some Magic Demigod we should all look up to for answers like a dictator or something, but in an financial aurgument, his breath holds weight.

socialite

03-04-2010, 01:50 PM

@ Sourcefire: My post directly before the one you quoted.

I understand where all of you are coming from in regards to accessibility and for the health of the format and thus I agree with reprints to a certain extent. If there is no way around reprints due to demand I at least hope they keep some semblance of the Reserve List and not reprint Power Nine.

@Meister_Kai: Both of the articles posted by Jason make some solid points against the analysis Steve presented.

Also: I don't really see where the affordability comes in when the 39.99 USD MSRP Dual Land Box O’ Japanese Foils is selling for 300.00 USD a pop on Ebay. But then again I guess you could argue that this proves that my cards won't be devalued. I guess we will have to wait and see.

FoolofaTook

03-04-2010, 02:07 PM

It is basically unstated fact that Vintage is the rich man's format.

This is a fundamental misrepresentation of what Vintage is. The vast majority of American Vintage players are Magic hobbyists who have accumulated the cards over time and maybe occasionally bought a missing staple of the power 9 in the process. This may not be true in Europe, where the power 9 were never disseminated in retail distibution but it is certainly true in the states. Again this may just be a cultural thing due to the economics of naturally occurring power 9 versus the necessity to have imported them through the secondary market.

Everyone knows and excepts this, because isn't that what it more or less was designed to be?

Vintage was never "designed" to be anything in particular. Vintage turned out to be what it is because WotC made a decision early on that they had printed among the best cards they would ever be able to print, without substantially altering the form of the game, in the very first set printed. They wanted to take control of the economics of the game and be able to print consistently interesting cards moving forward and so they had to eliminate the best ever as an option. The way to do that was to segregate those cards in one format and aggressively promote another. That's why Vintage is what it is. It was never WotC's intent to make Type I/Vintage a "rich man's game." If they'd thought they could get away with it they'd have called "do-over" and just removed those cards from competitive play all together, to sit as collectibles and examples of broken Magic. They didn't think they could do that and so instead we got the format split and a diminishing Type I/Vintage format.

Occam

03-04-2010, 02:55 PM

It's getting pretty warm in here. I can tell that the majority of this board is for reprints. I have also seen that those who are arguing against reprints are getting hammered, even though some of their points are valid insofar as a discussion is taking place. I'm going to try to put a few of those points across in a fashion that isn't emotional or aggressive, and hopefully it should clarify some of the points made by those against reprints.

Let me preface by saying that I am all for judicious reprints, ie a reprint policy that minimises fallout and maintains a tradeoff between solving the issue at hand quickly and incurring the wrath of those whose collection values will drop. I think I qualify as a collector, and obviously stand to lose monetarily should certain cards be reprinted -- even though I mainly deal with rarities these days, I started playing in 1994/1995 and was lucky enough to have amassed quite a lot of expensive cards for low sums, and there is still quite a bit of value at risk for me. To be completely honest, I'd dislike losing money on my collection, so I can definitely empathise with the people against reprints.

Some thoughts:

1) Magic isn't an investment.

Well, magic is an alternative investment, as is the dealing with coins, real estate, venture capital, art, wine, comic books etc. Magic is not just an alternative investment, but has been a fantastic one as well. The market isn't competely efficient as you can't short sell, prices go up with growing player bases, you have plenty of nigh risk-free targets to buy and hold, and you evade capital gains taxes as well. Magic absolutely qualifies as an alternative investment for those seeking to treat it as such.

2) Collectors who have bought for low prices aren't hurt by price falls.

Well, the opportunity cost of owning a card is whatever reinvestment returns you can get if you liquidate the card, and falling prices absolutely hurt people holding on to the cards, despite the gains (losses) being paper gains (losses) rather than realised ones until liquidation, because reinvestment gains would be higher if based on a higher base sum. That isn't to say that it is correct to say that lower collection values are a bulletproof reason to not have reprints, just that people who own cards affected by reprints are going to get hurt in the event of prices falling.

3) Collectors don't care about prices falling, because if they were real collectors, ownership is enough.

Speaking from personal experience and opinions as far as magic goes, I can honestly say that I've bought certain cards not simply because I wanted to own them, but because of what ownership bestows. Those intangible benefits are largely linked to prestige, which in turn is linked to monetary cost and scarcity, which of course are intertwined. Using a quick example, the painting in Bardo's avatar is desired by art collectors not because it is a great example of abstractionist art (which it apparently is), but partially because it costs a lot of money as well. One of Rothko's paintings went for upwards of $70m, and I'm sure that part of their aura and collectibility is due to that extravagant price. Even in a typical shopping mall, higher prices typically signal higher quality, regardless of whether it's true, and the same concept applies to magic as well. When you show something off in the "pimp" thread, you're not just flaunting the aesthetics, you're flaunting your ability to locate AND purchase the cards in question, making yourself unique among those who cannot.

4) Prices of original cards will not fall.

This one is tricky, because no one is going to be able to predict what happens here exactly. Sure, Birds and Wrath are still expensive in alpha/beta form, but a lot of that is due to nostalgia, the same reason why a summer royal assassin can go for more than a dual. Added to that is the fact that the reprints of Birds/Wrath have been around forever. Saying they haven't gone down through multiple reprints doesn't work as the largest hit to their prices would have come from the printings of revised and 4th, and the game wasn't anywhere near well-developed at the time to anticipate what their prices would have settled at if printings had stopped after revised. Berserk hasn't been affected much by ftv, but then and again not everyone likes foils, and berserk sees almost no play -- prices stay relatively constant as a lot of it is due to the card's collectibility, which skews purchases towards the original printings anyway.

As far as reprints go, depending on how they are printed (aesthetics, foil, asian foil), they may or may not act as good substitutes for the originals. The aim, of course, is to increase supply, but more importantly to create a situation in which the reprint is either markedly lower than the original printings, or that the reprint acts as a superior substitute (think duals with black borders and possibly foiled) for the worst original printing, and the prices of said original printings (revised, in this case) fall. It's likely to be a combination of both. Alpha and beta are less likely to be affected as the supply is low enough such that people who want them are likely to have them already. AN/LG/AQ originals are almost definitely going to fall quite a bit, especially as part of their prices come from scarcity.

5) Abolishing the reprint policy is tantamount to an ethical violation of trust.

I fundamentally agree that a lot of anger with regards to this comes not just from what breaking the reprint promise entails, but that it was even broken in the first place. Regardless, in my opinion, I can definitely see where the anger comes from -- your mortgage broker has an unwritten ethical and professional promise to act in a client's best interests, but what happened when that promise was broken and mortgage brokers engaged in predatory practices? Yeah, the subprime crisis. That was an exaggeration, but corporate trust counts for a lot, and is difficult to earn, while easy to lose. Whether or not it sounds idiosyncratic, plenty of the old-timers, so to speak, are worried about a slippery slope in which one broken promise can easily lead to another. Abolish the reprint policy today, reprint duals tomorrow. It increases the possibility (however minute) that the pillars of vintage will be eventually reprinted if the situation somehow calls for it, without any prior warning that the reserved list would provide at times. If a mutual fund manager has made a promise to not make investments in tobacco companies, despite hurting profits, you can honestly see the outcry that would ensue from the investors who place value in that promise due to personal beliefs (didn't like Thank You for Smoking etc). Once again, not a perfect example, but the idea is there.

6) The health of the format should take precedence.

Once again, I fundamentally agree with this, which is why I support reprints. However, I think that the people who don't have a play-first mentality that a lot of sourcers have are being cut a short stick here. I don't believe for a second that the majority of those who oppose reprints don't care for the format by extension. Some people don't mind their collection values tanking, which is fine. Some people want to preserve their collection values, which is fine, especially as large amounts are fundamentally at risk for some. I'm not sure why one should take absolute precedence over the other, and I dont think that should be the case. Long-term health of Legacy may see values rise again to assauge the losses, but people can't be blamed for being opposed to having to take large monetary hits just to see the chance of that happening, especially as the glass ceiling on Legacy is exponentially higher than that of Vintage due to greater card availability and better support, in addition to the fact that Legacy is doing so well.

My basic train of thought is that if Wizards wants to affect a solution, sooner is better than later. No point bolting the barn doors after the horses have escaped. Despite Legacy doing well, the testing and printing of new sets takes the better part of a couple of years, which is plenty of time for something averse to happen to Legacy without Wizards being able to react quickly enough. Better to create an image of strength and forward thinking by addressing future problems when the format is doing well, than to be forced into emergency countermeasures when desperate times do call for desperate situations. I just hope the higher ups think it through carefully and are prepared to be steadfast under the inevitable backlash.

There're probably more points that I should address from a collector's point of view, but time is short. Hopefully I have made some decent points at least, and hopefully there is less needless bickering between both sides of the tape.

Smmenen

03-04-2010, 03:06 PM

4) Prices of original cards will not fall.

This one is tricky, because no one is going to be able to predict what happens here exactly. Sure, Birds and Wrath are still expensive in alpha/beta form, but a lot of that is due to nostalgia, the same reason why a summer royal assassin can go for more than a dual.

The assertion I make in this article, supported with data, is that reprinting dual lands would not negatively affect, and in fact, might increase, the value of A/B duals. The reason Birds and Wrath, Beta, are worth $200, is not because of nostalgia but because they are good. There are other examples.

Added to that is the fact that the reprints of Birds/Wrath have been around forever. Saying they haven't gone down through multiple reprints doesn't work as the largest hit to their prices would have come from the printings of revised and 4th, and the game wasn't anywhere near well-developed at the time to anticipate what their prices would have settled at if printings had stopped after revised. Berserk hasn't been affected much by ftv, but then and again not everyone likes foils, and berserk sees almost no play -- prices stay relatively constant as a lot of it is due to the card's collectibility, which skews purchases towards the original printings anyway.

Again, there are 300,000 Revised dual lands, but A/B Underground Seas are worth MORE than A/B Mox Pearl, Mox Jet, Mox Emerald, and Mox Ruby.

Alpha and beta are less likely to be affected as the supply is low enough such that people who want them are likely to have them already. AN/LG/AQ originals are almost definitely going to fall quite a bit, especially as part of their prices come from scarcity.

I completely disagree. AN print runs are tiny. Reprinting Arabaian Night/Anitiquities cards will not affect their value any more than reprinting Beta cards does to Beta.

Otherwise, I appreciate the tone of your post and most of the content. Well thought out.

Nightmare

03-04-2010, 03:13 PM

For the most part, Occam, your points are well received - by me at least. It's nice to get a variation of the things we've been hearing from someone with real money at risk. At the same time, I have to object to this point:

However, I think that the people who don't have a play-first mentality that a lot of sourcers have are being cut a short stick here. I don't believe for a second that the majority of those who oppose reprints don't care for the format by extension. Some people don't mind their collection values tanking, which is fine. Some people want to preserve their collection values, which is fine, especially as large amounts are fundamentally at risk for some. I'm not sure why one should take absolute precedence over the other, and I dont think that should be the case. Long-term health of Legacy may see values rise again to assauge the losses, but people can't be blamed for being opposed to having to take large monetary hits just to see the chance of that happening, especially as the glass ceiling on Legacy is exponentially higher than that of Vintage due to greater card availability and better support, in addition to the fact that Legacy is doing so well.

This is a Legacy strategy site, first and foremost - regardless of the other discussions the site contains. It is not a rarities site. It is not an auction site or a trading site. It is not a place for people to shoot the shit on various non-magic topics. Certainly it has the capacity to incorporate these things under the MTS umbrella, although we choose not to do some of it, but primarily and fundamentally it is a source for Legacy strategy. THE Source, if you'll grant me the pun.

As such, the primary focus of the vast majority of people reading and contributing to this site is the Legacy format, and the health of it is the paramount purpose of our efforts. It stands to reason, then, that the play-first mentality of a lot of Sourcers is correct in the context of this site. It's not out of line, nor out of character, for those people seeking this site as a strategic advantage over the competition to take umbrage with those who put their personal monetary values over the health of Legacy as a whole. It's this same "good of the format" attitude that saw us rally for the banning of Flash even as we sought to break it. What may be poor for a few is good for the many, and that is for certain the goal of MTS.

Michael Keller

03-04-2010, 03:28 PM

I completely disagree...Reprinting Arabaian Night/Anitiquities cards will not affect their value any more than reprinting Beta cards does to Beta.

I just had to chime in and state you are clearly incorrect on a given example of a card most thought would never be reprinted...Underworld Dreams. Before it was reprinted, an original Legends NM copy fetched between 35 and 40 dollars on the secondary market, no sweat (I assume you also wanted to include Legends in your assumption).

You can get them today for less than 15 dollars. And after looking at the big picture of Magic, this was arguably one of the boldest attempts at reprinting a playable, older card that most thought would never see the light of day again.

And look what happened. I don't care if people don't think it isn't playable anymore; the subject of collectibility came up in this conversation, and this clearly and advertly affected it. Older cards that are still collectible that people discuss for reprint really don't know or understand the repurcussions of doing such a thing. Magic may be a complex game when it comes to pricings and the fluxuation of prices because of the area you live in, but the truth is when you reprint a card more people have access to obtaining it. And because the vast majority of newer players prefer playing (relatively) newer cards, the prices on these cards remains unstable because of who you talk to and what is most valuable in a given population of players.

Smmenen

03-04-2010, 03:48 PM

caiomarcos

03-04-2010, 03:58 PM

I just had to chime in and state you are clearly incorrect on a given example of a card most thought would never be reprinted...Underworld Dreams. Before it was reprinted, an original Legends NM copy fetched between 35 and 40 dollars on the secondary market, no sweat.

You can get them today for less than 15 dollars. And after looking at the big picture of Magic, this was arguably one of the boldest attempts at reprinting a playable, older card that most thought would never see the light of day again.

If I was a Legends collector I'd be pretty happy, or at most indifferent, with the new price of Underworld Dreams. Either it would be easier and cheaper for me to get a card I'm missing or I'd already have the card in my collection and it wouldn't matter what's the current price.

As I player, I was quite happy with the reprinting, I could get some new, white bordered Underworld Dreams to build casual decks.

If I was a scalper trying to make fast money on Underworld Dreams, then I'd be pissed off, but I don't see why WotC or us players have to take pity on them or worry about their business.

I see no way a reprint would bother collectors and/or players regarding the value of the cards.

I collect Mirage, different languages and so on, so LED and Phyrexian Dreadnought reaching 50 dollars does not make this collector happy. Let the market be flooded by WB, with ugly new art, lame flavor text and no cool palm tree as it's expansion symbol, that way I can get the original ones I'm after for cheaper and easier. It wouldn't matter a bit what the price of the ones I already have would reach because... uhm... I already have them in my collection, that means I have no intention of "cashing out" on them.

Occam

03-04-2010, 04:03 PM

The assertion I make in this article, supported with data, is that reprinting dual lands would not negatively affect, and in fact, might increase, the value of A/B duals. The reason Birds and Wrath, Beta, are worth $200, is not because of nostalgia but because they are good. There are other examples.

I'll be honest here. I can't view it.

I'm not disagreeing that they ARE good. Because they are. In fact, I've already pretty much agreed by saying that alpha/beta is unlikely to be affected much, as reprints for duals are likely going to be substitutes for revised versions primarily. The point is, you can't expect to extricate nostalgia from the equation and make conclusions from there, and I've basically stated that there is little to showcase what would probably happen, because none of the cards that I've seen highlighted for trends is a great, much less perfect, parallel. It's like when you get an Egyptian company's required rate of return, simply taking the yield spread between US and Egyptian bonds as country risk premium isn't great because the correlation between the company's returns and the bond yields may not be high.

In the end, what I'm trying to say is that anticipating future prices isn't just about pulling out exhibits A and B and hoping they are perfect correlations with the card being analysed. I'm sure that you can appreciate that.

Again, there are 300,000 Revised dual lands, but A/B Underground Seas are worth MORE than A/B Mox Pearl, Mox Jet, Mox Emerald, and Mox Ruby.

Which is fine. The issue, of course, is that duals are a lot more ubiquitious than either birds or wrath can hope to be now, or in the future, for that matter. More commonplace than Mox Pearl. The point isn't to make a comment on what prices on Birds and Wrath should or should not be. The point is why any trends set by those two may not map over well to duals.

I completely disagree. AN print runs are tiny. Reprinting Arabaian Night/Anitiquities cards will not affect their value any more than reprinting Beta cards does to Beta.

Alpha/beta are subject to a different set of substitution factors. With alpha/beta cards, either unlimited and/or revised cards are the cards at risk with regards to replacements by reprints. No such luck with AN. If revised and unlimited didn't exist, alpha/beta prices would be exponentially higher than they are today, and reprints would then directly threaten those cards, causing prices to fall. This is of course more pertinent to players who are more price elastic and sensitive. Chronicles has practically singlehandedly proven that even playables like Erhnam Djinn or City of Brass fall on reprinting. The fall is less drastic, but undeniable.

@ Nightmare:

That's definitely fair to say that this is a site populated by people who put playing first. I guess what I'm saying is that there is a healthy amount of real estate between disagreeing on a fundamental level in terms of mindsets and causing a situation where the discussion is mucked up by constant sniping. Of course, it takes two hands to clap, but I'm sure you can see what I'm saying.

Smmenen

03-04-2010, 04:55 PM

I'll be honest here. I can't view it.

I'm not disagreeing that they ARE good. Because they are. In fact, I've already pretty much agreed by saying that alpha/beta is unlikely to be affected much, as reprints for duals are likely going to be substitutes for revised versions primarily. The point is, you can't expect to extricate nostalgia from the equation and make conclusions from there,

No one has. Juzam Djinn makes this point.

But we can't also allow nostalgia to obscure and obfuscate what's really going on: which is that A/B cards retain their value because there is a separate demand for A/B cards, of which nostalgia is only a component part.

and I've basically stated that there is little to showcase what would probably happen, because none of the cards that I've seen highlighted for trends is a great, much less perfect, parallel.

I disagree. There is plenty of evidence. Just look at my post in the other thread:

Jason:

The facts in my article are simple:

1) Beta Underground Sea is worth as much or more than most Moxen, and 2/3s of Power Nine:

http://blacklotusproject.com/cards/Limited+Edition+Beta/

Limited Edition Beta

$12391.89 / 683 volume
Most valuable cards
1 Black Lotus 1379.85 (0.00%) 6 volume
2 Ancestral Recall 860.00 (17.81%) 1
3 Mox Sapphire 791.00 (0.00%) 5
4 Underground Sea 583.00 (0.00%) 2
5 Mox Pearl 508.20 (0.00%) 4
6 Mox Emerald 493.90 (0.00%) 4
7 Mox Jet 490.95 (0.00%) 4
8 Mox Ruby 458.70 (0.00%) 7
9 Time Vault 455.00 (0.00%) 1
10 Volcanic Island 441.34 (0.00%) 5
11 Time Walk 405.01 (0.00%) 4
12 Tropical Island 316.17 (0.00%) 4
13 Timetwister 285.55 (0.00%) 7
14 Tundra 236.51 (9.83%) 5
15 Taiga 219.16 (0.00%) 4

Yet, there are 90% more Seas printed than Moxen. The point is simple: the quantity of Seas is print has very little affect on the price of Beta/Alpha power nine.

You said that of my statement making exactly that point: "more asinine words and a conclusion based on many unaccounted for factors have rarely been written." Yet, the facts support me. Not you.

2) Original edition printings of Alpha and Beta cards do not lose value through reprints. My article carefully documents this in the case of Birds of Paradise, Wrath of God, and Shivan Dragon, which have each seen numerous reprints, but have not affected the price of Alpha and Beta, and arguably have increased their value.

Birds of Paradise (A) - $200
Birds of Paradise (B) - $200
Birds of Paradise (U) - $25
Birds of Paradise (RV) - $12.50
Birds of Paradise (4th) - $9
Birds of Paradise (5th) - $10
Birds of Paradise (6th) - $10
Birds of Paradise (7th) - $10
Birds of Paradise (8th) - $10
Birds of Paradise (RAV) - $10
Birds of Paradise (10th) - $10
Birds of Paradise (M10) - $6

Many other cards make this point: Mana Vault, Demonic Tutor, etc.

Mana Vault:

* Fourth Edition 2.08
* Revised Edition 2.01
* Unlimited Edition 7.84
* Limited Edition Beta 114.72
* Limited Edition Alpha 119.95

Demonic Tutor:

* Revised Edition 4.99
* Unlimited Edition 7.85
* Limited Edition Beta 49.01
* Limited Edition Alpha 80.00

Swords To Plowshares

* Ice Age 2.38
* Fourth Edition 2.79
* Revised Edition 2.39
* Unlimited Edition 4.58
* Limited Edition Beta 15.20
* Limited Edition Alpha 23.84

3) Alpha and Beta Underground Seas, and other A/B dual lands, have recently risen substantialy in price. The demand for Alpha and Beta dual lands is clearly related to the demand for dual lands generally, but it is none the less not the same.

If Wizards were to reprint dual lands in M11, I think the facts clearly show that prices on Alpha and Beta dual lands would not be negatively affected. If anything, I think they would go up since they would be legal in standard, and the demand for pimp duals, the demand for the A/B elite prints, which far outstrips supply, would increase. Prices, accordingly, would increase.

Prices only go down if the supply for a good is fungible or a perfect substitute. Alpha and Beta Underground Seas are not perfect substitutes, to say, Unlimited Seas or M16 Seas or FTV Seas, if they were to print the latter. They are functionally simiilar, but the demand is different.

You misrepresent my position. I never say that reprints don't negatively affect price. What I say is that

"The Reserved List neither preserves value nor collectability, at least, not to the extent that its defenders imagine. " There are times when reprints have no appreciable effect on price, and times when prices actually go up. The conventional wisdom is that prices always go down because supply increases. Experience has taught that this is not always the case, and the principle point of my article was to demonstrate this fact, and the consequence of the Reserved List on the potential future viability of Legacy.

Which is fine. The issue, of course, is that duals are a lot more ubiquitious than either birds or wrath can hope to be now, or in the future, for that matter. More commonplace than Mox Pearl. The point isn't to make a comment on what prices on Birds and Wrath should or should not be. The point is why any trends set by those two may not map over well to duals.

Duals are FAR less common that birds or wrath can hope to be. Birds or Wrath have each been reprinted many, many times.

The fact that beta Sea is more valuable than beta Mox Pearl is quite revealing: the point is that reprints don't devalue beta card values.

Alpha/beta are subject to a different set of substitution factors. With alpha/beta cards, either unlimited and/or revised cards are the cards at risk with regards to replacements by reprints. No such luck with AN. If revised and unlimited didn't exist, alpha/beta prices would be exponentially higher than they are today, and reprints would then directly threaten those cards, causing prices to fall. This is of course more pertinent to players who are more price elastic and sensitive. Chronicles has practically singlehandedly proven that even playables like Erhnam Djinn or City of Brass fall on reprinting. The fall is less drastic, but undeniable.
.

But that doesn't prove that reprints of Arabian nights or Antiquities would drop the price of those cards today. The reasons that those prices don't fall today didn't exist in 1995, or, least, not to the degree it does now. If they had reprinted cards that only appeared in A/B/U in Chronicles, those cards would have fallen just as City of Brass did. But reprints of cards from A/B don't cause A/B prices to fall.

android

03-04-2010, 05:01 PM

I wanted to write something intelligent but then I just said fuck it and settled for some abstract ideas. Everything has already been covered to some extent anyhow so reiterating what someone else already wrote is just killing this thread.

Some abstract ideas as a point of reference;

Magic cards are made of paper
Iberian Ham
Fine Wine
Bicycles (not Huffy)
Classic car restoration
Diamonds & Gold

Anyhow, getting down to it.

If you take a look at this whole debate from an abstract point of view, it becomes apparent that just about every factor or viewpoint is one of three irreconcilable forces. I'm not going to get into the fact that a large percentage of our sample set are likely both players and collectors (this just totally complicates things). Let's also assume we are talking about single cards and not Magic as a whole.

The issue of collectors vs. players is really about cost. Cost going up being a boon to collectors but a bain to players, though driven one, the other and by both a different times. Of course cost can be further refined to being part of the rarity and power level triad, both of which are at times independent of one another and at others mutual. Perhaps cost could also be replaced by availability in the collectors vs players triad as it happens to drive cost for different reasons. I will cite nostalgia as one potential reason and perhaps hype as another example of a cost driver.

From a player perspective, there is no dilemma with nostalgia or rarity's effect on cost just so long as the card is not required within a given card pool needed to play competitively in the format in question. Reprinting rare or nostalgic cards of value will do nothing but hurt collectors. The danger comes when cards which are both rare and valuable are reproduced in numbers. Often, those are the cards that also may be higher on the power scale and thus would be desirable to the players who care little for the devaluation that may affect the collectors.

With that said, I'm all for reprinting staples in limited supply. I think this is really the ultimate answer. The supply should be so limited that the release should really do nothing to quell the rising value of magic cards in general. It should only serve to make available cards that are in short supply. I like that my collection is worth more each year and I think that's a reasonable expectation on my part as a collector.

To summarize:

$50 is not too much for a dual land.

Iberian Ham is hella expensive but people swear it's worth every penny. Also note that once you eat it, you'll never see it again (unless you like looking in the toilet).

Every hobby is a money pit. Just be thankful that after you get your countless hours of enjoyment out of playing with your paper, you can still sell it and at the very least get something back.

Quit bitching, buy some cards, play the game, introduce others, spread the love.

Smmenen

03-04-2010, 05:10 PM

The issue of collectors vs. players is really about cost. Cost going up being a boon to collectors but a bain to players, though driven one, the other and by both a different times.

Not collectors, but investors. It is important to distinguish, as I do in this article, between collectors and investors, which are often different groups of people.

Meister_Kai

03-04-2010, 05:29 PM

This is a fundamental misrepresentation of what Vintage is.

You are right. However, ask any group of casual players (or hell, almost any group of relatively ignorant players) if Vintage is the "rich man's format" and I think you know what kind of answer you'll receive. I know this because in mid 2000 when Vintage was gaining speed I wanted to start up a Vintage community where I lived. Everyone's number one complaint was that it costs way too much money to play (even with 10 proxies, which admittedly I thought sounded stupid). I know that 20 people calling the green grass blue doesn't make it so, but if so many people call it so, something must be up.

Vintage was never "designed" to be anything in particular.

You are right on this too, I didn't phrase this very well. What I meant to get at is that knowing that intergal cards like P9 would never be reprinted, it can be reasonably thought that one day people could see it as becoming the "rich man's format" since the required broken old card could potentially cost so much.

3) Collectors don't care about prices falling, because if they were real collectors, ownership is enough.

Speaking from personal experience and opinions as far as magic goes, I can honestly say that I've bought certain cards not simply because I wanted to own them, but because of what ownership bestows. Those intangible benefits are largely linked to prestige, which in turn is linked to monetary cost and scarcity, which of course are intertwined. Using a quick example, the painting in Bardo's avatar is desired by art collectors not because it is a great example of abstractionist art (which it apparently is), but partially because it costs a lot of money as well. One of Rothko's paintings went for upwards of $70m, and I'm sure that part of their aura and collectibility is due to that extravagant price. Even in a typical shopping mall, higher prices typically signal higher quality, regardless of whether it's true, and the same concept applies to magic as well. When you show something off in the "pimp" thread, you're not just flaunting the aesthetics, you're flaunting your ability to locate AND purchase the cards in question, making yourself unique among those who cannot.

I could be very wrong, but I think this has much more to do with the debate than what many give it credit for. I am literally at a loss for words when I read this. Not because I am aghast about its contents in a offended sort of manner, but because there is no way I can think up to satisfy something as innately subjective as this. All my duals are revised not because they are all I can afford (well, if I were buying them now then they would be) but because outside of piddly $1 cards like Ice Age Swords to Plowshares I don't care about what my cards look like, or what my opponent's cards look like. I'll admit that there are some pretty baller alternate arts out there that would be awesome to have, but when it comes to stuff like Summer Magic cards (which I doubt many actually play in their decks) I just don't care.

Of every hypothetical (or not) "market" we have discussed throughout all these threads, I would argue that the people described above in Occam's writing is the most purely subjective. If someone buys Beta duals just to give others a bad case of penis envy, and that person is pissed because now people are flashing Japanese duals because thats the cat's meow, how am I supposed to sympathize with that person? It's like when you hear about that huge slut in high school who looked smoking hot until she got pregnant, you laugh and go on. I would wager that is close to human nature.

Occam

03-04-2010, 05:31 PM

No one has. Juzam Djinn makes this point.

But we can't also allow nostalgia to obscure and obfuscate what's really going on: which is that A/B cards retain their value because there is a separate demand for A/B cards, of which nostalgia is only a component part.

Correct.

On the same note, we also can't allow the fact that a card is playable to obscure and obfuscate what's really going on: which is that A/B cards retain their value because there is a separate demand for A/B cards, of which playability is only a component part.

Point is we can't cherry-pick one facet and focus on it exclusively.

I disagree. There is plenty of evidence. Just look at my post in the other thread:

There is plenty of evidence, just not plenty of evidence that has presented itself to be a perfect correlation to what we're looking at here, which is primarily dual lands. I'm going to discount the statement that U Sea is worth more than certain members of the p9, because that isn't really illustrating anything here. What we're looking for in order to project duals is very simple. A rare card printed ONLY in A/B/U/R and which is a staple (and by staple I mean widely played) in both eternal formats would be a great start. I'm drawing a blank here. Demonic tutor and mana vault fail for obvious reasons, as their current value isn't linked to the recent boom in Legacy prices, which is why U Sea is worth more than a Mox Pearl in the first place. Stp? nope, because it isn't a rare and has been reprinted plenty of times. Birds and Wrath aren't played widely at all. I'm not trying to be a stickler for detail, and I hope you understand that. I just don't think that pulling out trends of cards that aren't subject to the same market forces is a fair representation. The same way Microsoft and IBM may be similar companies in theory, but they assuredly have markedly different fundamentals.

Duals are FAR less common that birds or wrath can hope to be. Birds or Wrath have each been reprinted many, many times.

The fact that beta Sea is more valuable than beta Mox Pearl is quite revealing: the point is that reprints don't devalue beta card values.

I'm not referring to the number of copies existing in the market. I've already stated in my first post that birds and wrath have been reprinted many times, whereas duals have not. What I'm saying is that duals are a pillar of eternal, which is exactly why the reprint debate regarding duals is ongoing with regards to Legacy health. The high prices of duals right now definitely have something to do with Legacy's popularity, plus the fact that they are played by the majority of Legacy decks. Birds and wrath have nowhere near that kind of ubiquity.

But that doesn't prove that reprints of Arabian nights or Antiquities would drop the price of those cards today. The reasons that those prices don't fall today didn't exist in 1995, or, least, not to the degree it does now. If they had reprinted cards that only appeared in A/B/U in Chronicles, those cards would have fallen just as City of Brass did. But reprints of cards from A/B don't cause A/B prices to fall.

No it does not, but as long as one is a substitute for the other, regardless of whether or not it is a good substitute, Vegas money is on downward price pressure, especially if reprint numbers are as large as Chronicles print runs, and if we're talking about the long run. Once again, we haven't seen any good example that can be extrapolated from, as there haven't been any recent promo reprints of cards from AN-AQ or even the portal sets. I'm not discounting the chance that you might be correct and AN prices are completely unaffected. Suffice to say I'd be very, very surprised.

As for A/B/U, the fact that unlimited and revised, for many cards, exists means that reprints affect them first, as those sets, along with the reprints, are going to be looked at as comparatively inferior goods to A/B. That automatically means they are much stronger substitutes for themselves than they are for A/B cards.

I could be very wrong, but I think this has much more to do with the debate than what many give it credit for. I am literally at a loss for words when I read this. Not because I am aghast about its contents in a offended sort of manner, but because there is no way I can think up to satisfy something as innately subjective as this. All my duals are revised not because they are all I can afford (well, if I were buying them now then they would be) but because outside of piddly $1 cards like Ice Age Swords to Plowshares I don't care about what my cards look like, or what my opponent's cards look like. I'll admit that there are some pretty baller alternate arts out there that would be awesome to have, but when it comes to stuff like Summer Magic cards (which I doubt many actually play in their decks) I just don't care.

Of every hypothetical (or not) "market" we have discussed throughout all these threads, I would argue that the people described above in Occam's writing is the most purely subjective. If someone buys Beta duals just to give others a bad case of penis envy, and that person is pissed because now people are flashing Japanese duals because thats the cat's meow, how am I supposed to sympathize with that person? It's like when you hear about that huge slut in high school who looked smoking hot until she got pregnant, you laugh and go on. I would wager that is close to human nature.

Edit to answer to this point.

You're right that this probably is a mostly overlooked point, and definitely that taste and appreciation are both subjective, as the debates on the "pimp" thread that pop up every couple of pages point towards. I'm not trying to solicit sympathy for people who own cards for prestige, because to me the risks of ownership counterbalance the benefits of ownership. I'm just trying to say that I don't agree that collectors aren't hurt by price falls because they're happy to just own the cards and aren't necessarily looking to earn a buck. Collectors, be it art collectors, wine collectors or memoraphilia collectors, all are in some way influenced by the value of an item. It's linked with exclusitivity, which in turn is linked to scarcity and a high intrinsic value. A lot of this is a rough generalisation, but the point of my initial post isn't to put forward concrete truths (and neither do I state that my opinion is infallible) -- it is rather to address certain lines of thought that are used to counter arguments put forth by the collectors. I don't agree with the thought that real collectors simply want ownership rather than what said ownership entails, which is why I put forth an opposing line of thought.

I think that the argument for reprints carries enough weight because Legacys long-term health depends on it. I don't think any dangerous generalisations or projections like the one we are discussing are needed to sugarcoat the long-term need for reprints. Not directed at anyone in particular, but it's easy for me to see why collectors and people opposing reprints are getting defensive when arguments for reprints include some very speculative and subjective statements which are supposed to lessen the expected impact of reprints. That's not to say that those opposing reprints aren't guilty of that either, but it doesn't really help the discussion at hand.

MMogg

03-04-2010, 05:32 PM

For all the people who don't want duals reprinted out of worrying about prices going down, how about we just ask Wizards for Triple lands?

Bant Land
Land - Forest, Island, Plains
T: add :g:,:u: or :w: to your mana pool.

That way everyone can bitch equally about how we all have to acquire new cards. :tongue:

Smmenen

03-04-2010, 05:47 PM

I think Swords to PLowshares is a fine example. It was reprinted in 4th Edition and Ice Age, not just A/B/U and 4th and IA had huge print runs.

Pastorofmuppets

03-04-2010, 06:16 PM

For the most part, Occam, your points are well received - by me at least. It's nice to get a variation of the things we've been hearing from someone with real money at risk. At the same time, I have to object to this point:

This is a Legacy strategy site, first and foremost - regardless of the other discussions the site contains. It is not a rarities site. It is not an auction site or a trading site. It is not a place for people to shoot the shit on various non-magic topics. Certainly it has the capacity to incorporate these things under the MTS umbrella, although we choose not to do some of it, but primarily and fundamentally it is a source for Legacy strategy. THE Source, if you'll grant me the pun.

As such, the primary focus of the vast majority of people reading and contributing to this site is the Legacy format, and the health of it is the paramount purpose of our efforts. It stands to reason, then, that the play-first mentality of a lot of Sourcers is correct in the context of this site. It's not out of line, nor out of character, for those people seeking this site as a strategic advantage over the competition to take umbrage with those who put their personal monetary values over the health of Legacy as a whole. It's this same "good of the format" attitude that saw us rally for the banning of Flash even as we sought to break it. What may be poor for a few is good for the many, and that is for certain the goal of MTS.

Thank you, Nightmare.
All I've ever owned are my two crappy Tundras (which got even worse, if anyone remembers that thread) as far as duals go. Do I care if there's a reprint? Not particularly. Wizards wouldn't give them away like flu shots, after all. I think some new players with opportunities to play with duals might bring a creative change to the format. And if they don't like these prices, they can either keep crying about them and not do anything or shell out the $100 for Ichorid and start winning some duals at events. Anyone who co plains about the prices either isn't proactive enough to make the money to buy them, or doesn't have the method to get said money. It really boils down to priority. When there's not a single dual on Ebay, MOTL, or in stores, that's when they should be reprinted. That's when the format will stagnate. Until then, it all comes down to what your priorities are, and how much you're willing to spend. People bought the cards low and now have a chance to sell high. Isn't that really the fun of having a free market? Go figure out what's going to spike in price next and capitalize.

android

03-04-2010, 07:27 PM

Not collectors, but investors. It is important to distinguish, as I do in this article, between collectors and investors, which are often different groups of people.

I understand the distinction you made but didn't want to expand into market forces and the powers that drive them. I figure that for many Magic players concerned about the "affordability" of magic, the forces behind the fluctuation in prices are less a concern than the prices themselves (thus the desire for a simple solution: reprints).

Simplified, the player base is expanding and the quantity of cards available (especially for eternal formats) is static. Naturally, the only solution that will ensure that the format continues to thrive while scaling to meet the increased player body is to guarantee a supply to accommodate the needs of the body now and into the future.

What does that mean for the speculator, collector and investor? Well, the speculator seems to be doing just fine lately on everything from vintage up through standard. This will not always be the case as I've been guilty myself of stockpiling cheap cards that I'd hoped would spike at some point due to a new card being introduced and been left hanging. As for the collector, I don't feel that an intelligent collector (investor) will ever really be harmed (reprints or not) by WotC changing reprint policies revoking the reserve list. Counterfeiting seems to me to be the only real threat to investors. When I think of investors, I'm thinking about people who collect truly rare and high grade cards, not people who have a collection of Urza's Saga and Masques. I guess I personally would place investors in this class of people who understand what's worth investing in. These people should be comfortable with dumping their entire collection if it looks like things are going south. Your run of the mill collectors should never really be worried about loss in value and should collect for the sake of collecting (I'm one of these).

Nebuchadnezzar

03-04-2010, 08:51 PM

Mr.C

03-04-2010, 09:19 PM

SpikeyMikey

03-04-2010, 10:09 PM

What confuses me is the impartiality that some seem to agree with when concerning reprints off the reserved list. Their argument that format A is expensive because cards B are required to play, thus the format A will reach a point where growth is no longer possible because the cost of B is too high. Which is a fine argument. But the how can one argue for the reprinting of duals for Legacy but at the same time against the reprinting of power for Vintage? How is this not a double standard?

If you remove the reserve list, and reprint duals, I see no reason why power or other similarly outrageously expensive cards should be exempted from your argument.

I think you have succinctly summed up the main point of the anti-reserve list crowd. But nobody (almost nobody) is arguing that the supply will not limit the format growth. What the pro-reserve list crowd is saying is that action should be taken when that point is reached. They believe that there will be time when this happens to correct the deficiency then. I believe that this is already beginning to happen and that when we hit that glass ceiling, there will be no saving the format. I believe that reprints can and should be done now and that they can be done in ways which will not cause heavy losses for collectors.

If dual lands were $5000 a piece, you would not play Legacy. Nobody here would. If you have $200,000 in cardboard in a binder in your room, you would cash that shit in with a quickness. If you could afford not to, it'd be because you're already cruising around the Med on your yacht surrounded by scantily clad women and drinks with umbrellas in them. So the question is not "can price drive the format under?" The question is "at what point does price drive the format under?" Obviously, it varies from person to person. I got out of T1 when Mirrodin was released, because I could no longer play my beloved Sligh competitively. It was either mulligan aggressively for FoW or play Workshop, Trinisphere, go. So I sold off my power, all my restricted goodies, my Morphlings (which had dropped in value significantly after the printing of Exalted Angel), etc. I switched over to Legacy. Now I hear that there are competitive decks in T1 that operate with no jewelry whatsoever, like Ichorid. In the Goblin Recruiter SCD thread, I even learned that there's a GOBLINS deck in T1. So maybe the format's not that expensive to play anymore. But it doesn't matter. Because if I were to play T1, I'd WANT to play with the P9. Why play a format if you can't access the most fun cards in the format? I was priced out of T1 and I will never go back.

The same holds true of Legacy. I sold off all my cards. I play MWS only now. I will never buy back into Legacy, because even if prices dropped to half of what they are now, I still wouldn't be willing to pay that price for them. I'm not dropping a mortgage payment on a deck, that's ludicrious. If prices had reached half of what they are now and stabilized or even dropped slightly, I'd probably still be playing. But now that I'm out, I'm not going to buy back in unless I can buy in for what I paid originally, and duals will never again reach $5 a pop, nor will FoW's. That's part of why skyrocketing prices can and will eventually kill the format. The other part is this. What if your duals were worth $50 each, but you were the only person in a 500 mile radius that played Legacy? You'd probably dump them and take the $2,000. When Legacy caps out, and the backlash to the rising prices happens, it will grow exponentially. As the format's popularity dies, that death will slow exponentially as well; the format will never really die, but it will never again be viable as a serious tournament format. There will be nothing Wizards can do about it, because even flooding the market with staples will not revive the format at that point. Even if you can put an entire deck together for $500, duals and all, why spend that kind of money if you're the only one playing it?

I do understand where the pro-reserve list crowd is coming with in not wanting to lose money. After all, who wants to lose money? But as I explained in Jaco's thread, a smart company could run their reprints in such a fashion as to not devastate the secondary market, and WotC is nothing if not a smart company. As a side note, the argument that if it's good for SCG, it's good for guys like Jaco is inherently flawed, and severely so. If the price on Seas were to drop from $50 to $5 over the next 2 months, SCG would not lose money. They would take decreased profits, but they'd also move 200 Seas in that time frame, at a reduced net. They would feel a hit in their profits, but they would not lose money, and when the prices stabilized, they would make tons on the increased volume. Jaco, on the other hand, would feel the full $45 loss, since he's not selling and rebuying his Underground Sea during that time. That's why you can't draw a parallel between vendors and collectors, the market dynamics are not even close to the same.

Finally, one thing that FoolofaTook said in his last post that hasn't been addressed and ought to have been is that Wizards doesn't care about the secondary market. This is a fallacy based in ignorance of how businesses operate. Wizards does not meddle in the secondary market because to do so would be to enter into direct competition with their largest customers. If they wanted to, they could put SCG out of business tomorrow by selling packs at just above cost. You don't kill the goose that lays the golden egg, however. It's my opinion that this is the reason that they pulled all their retail stores and also the reason that the retail stores NEVER sold singles. They sold packs at MSRP so as not to undercut their customers. If I go to Wizards and ask to buy 6 skids of product, they're going to turn me down unless I can demonstrate that I am a legitimate vendor. They'll tell me to buy from a collectibles store or an online vendor. Much the same as if one of my company's customers tried to go direct to one of our vendors. Our vendor would direct them back to us.

If, however, Wizard's customers come to them and say "our market is becoming increasingly volatile and we're at risk to lose significant market share and profits" then Wizards will ABSOLUTELY step in. And I would lay great sums of money on the fact that Wizards watches the secondary market every bit as closely as SCG and far more closely than anyone here. Because that secondary market is the largest driving force behind their primary market, pack sales. I don't have access to the numbers, but I'd be willing to bet they lose money every time they host a PT or GP, but the pro circuit drives the semi-pros to buy more product, and the semi-pros, to an extent, drive the casual players (the casuals are to a great extent self-driven, but if the Pro Tour were to die, that market segment would take a significant hit as well, just like Pee Wee football would lose popularity if the NFL went bankrupt). If you think about it, you realize that the secondary market is hugely important to them.

Finally, I'd like to reiterate that reprints /= falling card prices. If done with a little thought invested in them, they could be used to inflate, stabilize or deflate the secondary market. As much as it pains me to say it (because I'd like to kick the everloving shit out of the guy that thought up M10 combat damage rules, and will, if I ever meet him), Wizards is nothing if not a savvy company. They won't screw it up. I deal with dozens of companies on a professional basis, and I know what gross corporate incompetence looks like, and it's not these guys.

SpikeyMikey

03-04-2010, 10:11 PM

Because reprinting Power would certaintly destroy the value of the Unlimtied versions, as you can only use one of each in a format nobody plays, whereas duals are 3-4 of each in a very popular format.

As I said in my post in the thread about Jaco's latest two articles, P9 reprints could be done with affect current P9 values. You simply release the cards into the market very slowly. If a new Black Lotus comes out, but only 200 of them are printed, it will not decrease the value of other Lotuses, even Unlimited ones. If anything, it will cause prices on all versions to rise, out of increased interest. This is what I meant in my previous post about using reprints to inflate secondary market value.

FoolofaTook

03-04-2010, 11:21 PM

Finally, one thing that FoolofaTook said in his last post that hasn't been addressed and ought to have been is that Wizards doesn't care about the secondary market. This is a fallacy based in ignorance of how businesses operate. Wizards does not meddle in the secondary market because to do so would be to enter into direct competition with their largest customers. If they wanted to, they could put SCG out of business tomorrow by selling packs at just above cost. You don't kill the goose that lays the golden egg, however. It's my opinion that this is the reason that they pulled all their retail stores and also the reason that the retail stores NEVER sold singles. They sold packs at MSRP so as not to undercut their customers. If I go to Wizards and ask to buy 6 skids of product, they're going to turn me down unless I can demonstrate that I am a legitimate vendor. They'll tell me to buy from a collectibles store or an online vendor. Much the same as if one of my company's customers tried to go direct to one of our vendors. Our vendor would direct them back to us.

I need to respond to this to point out that I have never said that WotC doesn't care about the secondary market. I think they care a great deal about it and always have. The secondary market is how the chase rares that they print wind up valued, making Magic a hot property to own. The secondary market is one of the main reasons they didn't just bite the bullet the first time around and retire the power 9 and their ilk from all organized play. The secondary market sells product for them as long as they print cards good enough for the formats in question and that market has been strong when they do this.

Mr.C

03-04-2010, 11:33 PM

As I said in my post in the thread about Jaco's latest two articles, P9 reprints could be done with affect current P9 values. You simply release the cards into the market very slowly. If a new Black Lotus comes out, but only 200 of them are printed, it will not decrease the value of other Lotuses, even Unlimited ones. If anything, it will cause prices on all versions to rise, out of increased interest. This is what I meant in my previous post about using reprints to inflate secondary market value.

How likely would it be for them to only print two sheets? Not very.

thulnanth

03-05-2010, 01:47 AM

I do understand where the pro-reserve list crowd is coming with in not wanting to lose money. After all, who wants to lose money? But as I explained in Jaco's thread, a smart company could run their reprints in such a fashion as to not devastate the secondary market, and WotC is nothing if not a smart company. As a side note, the argument that if it's good for SCG, it's good for guys like Jaco is inherently flawed, and severely so. If the price on Seas were to drop from $50 to $5 over the next 2 months, SCG would not lose money. They would take decreased profits, but they'd also move 200 Seas in that time frame, at a reduced net. They would feel a hit in their profits, but they would not lose money, and when the prices stabilized, they would make tons on the increased volume. Jaco, on the other hand, would feel the full $45 loss, since he's not selling and rebuying his Underground Sea during that time. That's why you can't draw a parallel between vendors and collectors, the market dynamics are not even close to the same.

Finally, one thing that FoolofaTook said in his last post that hasn't been addressed and ought to have been is that Wizards doesn't care about the secondary market. This is a fallacy based in ignorance of how businesses operate. Wizards does not meddle in the secondary market because to do so would be to enter into direct competition with their largest customers. If they wanted to, they could put SCG out of business tomorrow by selling packs at just above cost. You don't kill the goose that lays the golden egg, however. It's my opinion that this is the reason that they pulled all their retail stores and also the reason that the retail stores NEVER sold singles. They sold packs at MSRP so as not to undercut their customers. If I go to Wizards and ask to buy 6 skids of product, they're going to turn me down unless I can demonstrate that I am a legitimate vendor. They'll tell me to buy from a collectibles store or an online vendor. Much the same as if one of my company's customers tried to go direct to one of our vendors. Our vendor would direct them back to us.

If, however, Wizard's customers come to them and say "our market is becoming increasingly volatile and we're at risk to lose significant market share and profits" then Wizards will ABSOLUTELY step in. And I would lay great sums of money on the fact that Wizards watches the secondary market every bit as closely as SCG and far more closely than anyone here. Because that secondary market is the largest driving force behind their primary market, pack sales. I don't have access to the numbers, but I'd be willing to bet they lose money every time they host a PT or GP, but the pro circuit drives the semi-pros to buy more product, and the semi-pros, to an extent, drive the casual players (the casuals are to a great extent self-driven, but if the Pro Tour were to die, that market segment would take a significant hit as well, just like Pee Wee football would lose popularity if the NFL went bankrupt). If you think about it, you realize that the secondary market is hugely important to them.

Finally, I'd like to reiterate that reprints /= falling card prices. If done with a little thought invested in them, they could be used to inflate, stabilize or deflate the secondary market. As much as it pains me to say it (because I'd like to kick the everloving shit out of the guy that thought up M10 combat damage rules, and will, if I ever meet him), Wizards is nothing if not a savvy company. They won't screw it up. I deal with dozens of companies on a professional basis, and I know what gross corporate incompetence looks like, and it's not these guys.

Well said - I agree completely, thanks for sharing :smile:

Smmenen,

I think you have a point wrt the value of A/B cards like Birds and Wrath vs newer reprints, but along Occam's line I have a hypothetical question for you - what do you think the value of A/B Underground Seas would be if they were never reprinted in Revised? No one can say for sure, of course, but I've always felt under that circumstance they'd be worth more than even a Lotus (if for no other reason than play value and 4x needed). I think all duals in fact would be worth more than Moxen. Did the reprint of them in Revised hurt their price? I would say "yes" (glad they were, however, as I wouldn't have as many as I do, lol).

I think this is what people are getting at when they say reprints will drop the prices of never-before reprinted cards - with a new alternate copy available fewer people will need the original, so the price will drop. As that seems to be the goal of reprints to some degree that might not be bad, but I do believe it will happen. How bad? Depends on how Wizards handles it.

Like SpikeyMikey, I think Wizards is more than capable of doing a good job at pleasing players, dealers and collectors - they are rather adept at managing the game to help everyone. This, more than anything, is why I'm not too worried about how all this plays out :wink:

Take it easy,
Jared

jazzykat

03-05-2010, 05:20 AM

Things that I have not seen on this site are:

1. A clear and concise definition for what a healthy legacy format is.

2. How much $ is too much money for a card or a deck.

3. What is damaging to the format. Entry price and/or (rapid) change in the entry price.

4. Does higher/lower value of cards hurt the format?

5. What is the right price for a card? I mean should wizards just print Legacy cards like poker decks and just charge a shit load for entering tournaments? How much should the best/worst card cost?

6. Why do tournaments need to be sanctioned? Are people OK with proxy tournaments?

Also, while the idea that that A/B duals probably wouldn't suffer much of a price hit is in every other recent post, I find it interesting that, while acknowledged, the vast majority of the duals (i.e. Unlimited, and especially Revised) would almost certainly take a considerable hit.

Another thing I don't get is that while dual lands are what we build Legacy manabases on, why there is a lot less screaming for the reprint of Tarmogoyf, who is usually the staple of our "creature" base? In fact I would be willing to bet there are more Tarmogoyf in a lot of top 8's then there are any 1 specific type of dual land...

Goodguy6666

03-05-2010, 06:32 AM

Eksem

03-05-2010, 06:44 AM

Another thing I don't get is that while dual lands are what we build Legacy manabases on, why there is a lot less screaming for the reprint of Tarmogoyf, who is usually the staple of our "creature" base? In fact I would be willing to bet there are more Tarmogoyf in a lot of top 8's then there are any 1 specific type of dual land...

Because it's fun to buy powerful cards that do cool things and boring to buy mana to cast them with.

MMogg

03-05-2010, 07:09 AM

Zlatzman

03-05-2010, 07:31 AM

I have a question: how far from the original card does a card need to be not to violate the "Reserved cards will never be printed again in a functionally identical form."-clause? Could they print -1 life duals? What about giving the M10 lands forest/mountain subtypes (as well as making sure that the first one played enters the battlefield tapped)? What about a strictly better dual, granting 1 life when it enters the battlefield?

I ask this because if Wizards wont break the reserved list, I believe they should print something new that can replace the most needed cards on the list (aka duals).

DrJones

03-05-2010, 08:00 AM

Been lurking on The Source forever so thought I would just add as one of the silent masses. I would hate heving my cards reprinted. I collected them since Unlimited and spent alot of $$. I think theres plenty of formats that people can play without having to spend alot of dollars, why does everyone have to afford the format when its still growing and healthy.

Do we have to convert legacy to T2 where everyone can affort entry with top tier decks ? (which are also very expensive, ironically) Why ? The format is doing well and I dont buy into a "sudden" collaps of the format. I see no indications of this happening...much like I dont believe the people with a large sign saying "the end of the world is comming" ! Never been more expensive and never done better, cant see the problem.

A promise was made and some of us based our collections on this promise (and played with the cards meanwhile). Play what you can afford...I drive the car I can afford, why is this different.

Ah, well....wont influence the people at wizards, but at least I got it off my chest :)Hi, goodguy. Even though the reserved list and the reprint policy might seem the same, they are not. For example, Mana Drain, Balance and Force of Will are not covered by the reserved list but wizards has chosen not to reprint them for power-level reasons. The reserved list, however, has been a source of troubles and headaches to Wizards and to players since it was created. Core sets have been historically unbalanced due to it. Theme decks have been crippled due to it. It has been circumvented a lot of times because it's broken. You cannot pretend wizards not to print again 5/5 black creatures for 4cc just because Juzam exists, but everytime a card like this is printed there is an uproar because of this stupid policy. Wizards can no longer create cards like Sol Ring or Mox Diamond because the added redundancy would be too much for Vintage and Legacy, and they cannot just reprint the originals because they are on the reserved list. Note also that your collection that costed you so many dollars to build ten years ago would cost you now more than ten times that amount. Look at your collection and think about only having 10% of those cards. Now think about five years from now on, and think about only having 2% of those cards, because that's the way the game is gearing right now.
Players come and go, but they can't come if they can't afford the cards, and even if you lend the cards to them, people don't like playing with cards they don't own just in case they break or are stolen. I can no longer play Vintage because I no longer have people to play with, and I live in Spain which has the biggest player base of Vintage and Legacy in the world (the reason GP Madrid was so successful is because 1600 of those players were from Spain). Most of those players had been building their decks and collections for +10 years which is easier than trying to enter the format now, and even then, I'll say above 80% had to ask their friends to lend them cards because the cost of building a competitive legacy deck is prohibitive. This problem can only aggravate in the following years, and the only way to prevent it is either:

1. Marginalize the format so that nobody plays it. This is what happened with Vintage, and note that nobody plays it even in MWS were you can get your cards for free.
2. Ban the most expensive cards. Which is what I think will happen soon, seeing that it already has happened with cards like Mana Drain and Illusionary Mask. This action will totally tank your collection value.
3. Reprint alternative cards. This alleviates the problem a bit, because then not all people needs to play the same card. This is what happened with Force of Will (pact of negation, Mindbreak Trap) and Birds of Paradise. Cannot be used effectively because then the redundancy in certain decks would be too much.
4. Reprint the damn cards. Think of what would have happened with Vintage and Legacy if Dual lands had been only in A/B/U. If we can still play this format in the first place is because the dual lands got reprinted in Revised, plus the German and French versions. Can't you honestly see the difference between having to pay the cost of a mox to play, and the cost of a dual land? Even if revised edition "tanked" the prices of dual lands, haven't their price go up since then? Don't you see that reprints help the game last longer, and that card values are relevant as long as the format in which they are played is relevant? Do you honestly think prices will never go up again if the card are reprinted? That prices are going to stay at this value if they are not reprinted? Would you be worried about the amount of money you have invested in the cards had they been cheaper to acquire? Do you already own all the cards, or would you want to acquire new cards later? Wouldn't you prefer those cards to be cheaper?

bruizar

03-05-2010, 08:47 AM

Actiually, modern art is a clever technique to avoid paying tax. Just because you can benefit on the buying and selling of a certain good, doesn't mean its an investment. If anything, buying magic cards is a liability.

SpikeyMikey

03-05-2010, 09:26 AM

How likely would it be for them to only print two sheets? Not very.

No, I agree. I imagine they'd probably run a thousand or two of all the jewelry, possibly serialized but likely not. The point of large print runs is to be able to amortize the setup costs more efficiently into the per card cost. You don't want to pay a $500 or $1000 setup charge every couple thousand cards. But for something like this, Wizards could easily eat the setup. Then they could pass out these cards to T8's at PT's and/or top 32 at Worlds. They could also use them as ultra-rare inserts in packs. At the end of the day, a lot of these cards would end up in the hands of collectors, because of high value and low playability, but it might shake loose some ABU power to trickle down to players and at least some of the new promos would stay in circulation.

You don't think they'd do a print run of half a million, do you?

UrDraco

03-05-2010, 09:46 AM

I am very curious, is the Vintage community is discussing this topic as well? I can't access the mana drain from work so I don't know. Personally I love playing both Vintage and Legacy and would love i if Wizards could come up with some sort of fix for both formats. It seems impossible to come up with a solution but it would be awesome for Legacy and Vintage to show up as regularly as other formats at card shops.

SpatulaOfTheAges

03-05-2010, 10:15 AM

I think people with large investments would disagree.

If the secondary market tanks Magic will lose the collectible aspect except for fringe cards like Edgar, it will just turn into other CCG’s like Pokemon, where nothing holds real value. If I stop caring about my collection I stop caring about this game and eventually stop playing.

I understand where all of you are coming from in regards to accessibility and for the health of the format and thus I agree with reprints to a certain extent. If there is no way around reprints due to demand I at least hope they keep some semblance of the Reserve List and not reprint Power Nine.

Maybe I am taking your post the wrong way but it comes off like you really don’t care about people with large monetary investments in this game solely because you think they should have made a more wise choice of investing. It comes off as pompous and I could as easily say that I disagree with reprints because all the people who want them are people who are cheap and refuse to dump the same amount of money into the game as myself. It’s stupid and off base, at least respect where people like myself are coming from. Losing money sucks period.

I don't think that anybody is advocating reprinting duals in a core set, and I don't see how reprinting duals in a limited aspect will hurt their long term value.

There's also this assumption that the prices the dual-lands are at now is normal. They weren't at this level a year ago. There's good reason to believe their value will drop sharply after GP Columbus. There's also very good reason to believe there will be more Wizard's support for the format next year. And there will again be a spike in demand for duals. This cycle can't be sustained with the current pool of of duallands.

Kuma

03-05-2010, 01:13 PM

Things that I have not seen on this site are:

1. A clear and concise definition for what a healthy legacy format is.

A healthy Legacy format is one in which there are a handful of top-tier decks that keep each other in check sort of like rock-paper-scissors. There also needs to be a large number of viable decks that while not top tier can devastate certain metagames that have become unbalanced. Having a few inferior, yet viable decks that can be built relatively inexpensively is a plus as they can ease new players into the format. By these criteria, Legacy is a healthy format.

However, and more to the point of this thread, for Legacy to be healthy it needs players. If people aren't interested in the format, or can't afford the staples, they won't play. Players who have a large collection of staples, and therefore multiple decks will often loan them out. This is a huge help, but this essentially allows a few people to control the metagame. In my experiences, the people who borrow decks week after week eventually stop showing up to tournaments. If you had little say in which deck you play, would you keep playing Legacy?

Some of these players gradually acquire the cards to build a deck they want to play over a period of months. Many people tout this as the ideal way to get into Legacy. But what happens when that deck they spent months acquiring isn't as good as they thought it would be? Either they quit out of frustration, or they try to acquire staples for a new deck, often gutting the first for trade bait. The process begins anew.

Ideally, Legacy players would have two or three viable decks so they could adjust to metagame shifts and have something viable to play while building a new deck. In order to have a healthy Legacy community this needs to happen. Let's face it, most people can't afford to keep that much money tied up in Legacy. I don't know about you guys, but I'd much rather face a diverse metagame of top-tier decks than scrubs with bad homebrews, tier-two budget shit like Burn, a few guys who play the same deck every week because it's all they can afford, and only a handful of people who can keep me on my toes by rotating between top-tier decks.

If your metagame is made of a dozen-plus guys in the last category, lucky you. We need more people like that in Legacy, and card prices present a huge obstacle. I own a playset or more of almost every Legacy staple, and I hope to God that Wizards kills the reserve list and prints a decent amount of Legacy staples. I didn't spend money on cards because I wanted to make money by cashing out in a few years. I spent hundreds of dollars because that's how badly I wanted to play competitive Legacy. And I want other people who are just as dedicated but not as fortunate to be able to join me at the top tables with a powerful deck they enjoy playing. I want people not as dedicated as I to be able to taste the fruits of the format, because I believe that Legacy, beautiful Legacy, will hook them and not let go.

Shred the reserve list.

Nebuchadnezzar

03-05-2010, 07:03 PM

@SpikeyMikey: Nice post :) I agree with you, that I would sell my shit with a quickness if they got to be that expensive! The fact you still play Legacy on MWS (and I have a friend who does as well, he doesn't have all the cards like you) makes me think... WotC could support Legacy online. I don't know how much ME costs online, but maybe they could re-release it online, and have a healthy Legacy online format, where they could have as many duals as they want, everyone can now afford it and play it, even in sanctioned tournaments. (online is sanctioned, right?) The format can grow, evolve, new players can play, make new decks, you can have foil duals and whatever you want. WotC would make money, support the format, there'd be more tournaments, a lower cost of entry, and the reserve list would still be intact. Everybody wins!

That being said I do agree if WotC decided to do reprints, they'd do so in a reasonable & judicious manner, I do agree they for the most part know what's best for the game.

***

In response to JazzyKat,
1. A clear and concise definition for what a healthy legacy format is.
Lots of different archetypes. Card availability contributes positively to this?
Lots of players. Card availability contributes negatively to this?
Regular local tournaments. Not weekly like standard, but maybe monthly or bi-monthly.

2. How much $ is too much money for a card or a deck.
I would say $100 per card is too much for a card that 4x of is needed. But $100 for a single card like Loyal Retainers or Tabernacle is not too much.

3. What is damaging to the format. Entry price and/or (rapid) change in the entry price.
Rapid change in price = means rapid change of interest. More people interested, more people want to play. This does not = damaging to the format. Damaging = people leaving or never getting started due to cost of entry.

4. Does higher/lower value of cards hurt the format?
Both.
+ Tournaments are more worthwhile, TO's can offer cards which are worth more, therefore charge a higher buy-in. Higher price in cards = TO make more, have more incentive to hold tournaments. Players have more incentive to drive/attend/spend time and money to build a deck. Better prizes, more turnout.
+ Higher cost means less "flavor of the month" decks like you have in standard. I've argued before that the high cost leads to more variety in the format. Some folks play Merfolks because they are cheaper than say, BANT. Some people play Burn, or Dragon Stompy or whatever for the same reason. I've seen many tournament results where decks like these are top 8ing or even winning. Right now there are about 5 or so top tier decks, 10 or so tier 2, and lots of tier 3 decks. I argue with enough reprints all the tier 3 decks and half the tier 2 decks would die and everyone would play the top 5 or so tier 1 decks. I don't know about any of you, but I've lost to decks like MBA, Pox, Burn before. I guess I like the variety. Some people don't.

- Turns off newer players. But, there are some players, who like the idea that the cards don't go down in price. It makes some more willing to spend $50 on a dual, as opposed to $50 on a Baneslayer. I have a friend who got into Legacy and this was a selling point.
- Increases the "rich kid syndrome", like Vintage, those with the most money, will have the most/best cards and could have an advantage...

5. What is the right price for a card? I mean should wizards just print Legacy cards like poker decks and just charge a shit load for entering tournaments? How much should the best/worst card cost?
WotC needs to determine the demographic of Legacy players. So they know average age, median income, etc. From that I think they can extrapolate their disposable income and set the price point that keeps the majority of them interested and willing to spend. Then print quantities accordingly. Maybe this means print zero. Maybe it means print X amount. I DO NOT think they should print poker decks, they have those gold-bordered world championship decks, which I rarely see people playing with. Part of the fun is Trading for the cards you need, not getting everything in one package. Magic was founded on this principle; destroying it would be a terrible idea.

6. Why do tournaments need to be sanctioned? Are people OK with proxy tournaments?
I don't really care if it's sanctioned or not, but I wouldn't want to play with proxies if I had to pay for entry and there's money/cards to win.

I am very curious, is the Vintage community is discussing this topic as well? I can't access the mana drain from work so I don't know. Personally I love playing both Vintage and Legacy and would love i if Wizards could come up with some sort of fix for both formats. It seems impossible to come up with a solution but it would be awesome for Legacy and Vintage to show up as regularly as other formats at card shops.

UrDraco, I would also like to know Vintage's stance on this. I play Legacy, but wouldn't mind dabbling in Vintage. I never got into it because of the prohibitive cost. I say if they are going to reprint duals for Legacy, then Power for Vintage should be reprinted using the same argument.

***

Also I would love to know, if anyone knows, the amount of duals printed (i read 70,000 playsets?) vs. the amount of say, Ravnica Duals. I would love to know that number. Are they really that rare? Or are they just that popular?

Cabal_chan

03-05-2010, 08:49 PM

If you did a Legacy online release, wouldn't you still run into the same 'price devaluation' issue that's been brought up?

SpikeyMikey

03-05-2010, 09:38 PM

I need to respond to this to point out that I have never said that WotC doesn't care about the secondary market. I think they care a great deal about it and always have. The secondary market is how the chase rares that they print wind up valued, making Magic a hot property to own. The secondary market is one of the main reasons they didn't just bite the bullet the first time around and retire the power 9 and their ilk from all organized play. The secondary market sells product for them as long as they print cards good enough for the formats in question and that market has been strong when they do this.

I apologize. I swear I read someone saying that Wizards doesn't pay attention to secondary market and I thought it was in your post, but I can't find it anywhere looking over the last couple of pages. I don't know what to say.

FoolofaTook

03-05-2010, 10:00 PM

I apologize. I swear I read someone saying that Wizards doesn't pay attention to secondary market and I thought it was in your post, but I can't find it anywhere looking over the last couple of pages. I don't know what to say.

It's no problem at all, just wanted to set the record straight :)

When you blather as much as I do it's easy to get misquoted.

FoolofaTook

03-05-2010, 10:03 PM

If you did a Legacy online release, wouldn't you still run into the same 'price devaluation' issue that's been brought up?

Real assets would not be devalued by virtual ones. I'd have no problem at all if WotC chose to do a complete Legacy Online release of all the staples. I wouldn't play that, because I like holding the cards, but I would not be offended by it at all or worry about it doing anything positive or negative to the value of my cards and the cost of playing Legacy paper.

dahcmai

03-06-2010, 03:06 AM

So Steve, you were there and have not mentioned anything about a response to your position. Was there one? It would be nice to know their side and opinion on the matter. Did they just sit there and say thanks for spilling your guts about it or actually have something to say?

I would have to laugh at the redemption thing btw. I know a couple of people with a collection that would make them balk and I don't mean just a measly playset of power. I bet they would cash in quickly if something like that came about just for the sheer ease of the sell. Seems like they would take a heck of a large hit if they implemented something like that.

jazzykat

03-06-2010, 03:30 AM

If there was going to be redemption at market values over the past x months I would be out so fast. Hello house down payment or new car. I'd then rebuy everything when it is reprinted. That's just me though.

So, I was thinking more and more about this topic and I started wondering:

1. @Steve M: Why were you as opposed to say Bardo, Nightmare, Pete Hoefling, LSV, etc. selected to go to wizards and provide your ideas?

2. Is wizards open to receiving a panel of representatives from the "Legacy Commnunity" or do they pick and chose the voices they want to hear from?

3. Does all this discussion actually matter? We've gone back and forth and we are discussing actions and policies that could bring with it significant valuation changes but how much is all this writing and effort going to be taken into account when a decision is made?

4. While anyone is certainly able to write whatever they want and do whatever they want with the IP, of all articles and ideas posted forward shouldn't this one be free to all the Legacy community? This thread is primarily concerned with cost and accessibility of cards, shouldn't an article about this subject be accessible to all?

Bardo

03-06-2010, 01:24 PM

1. @Steve M: Why were you as opposed to say Bardo, Nightmare, Pete Hoefling, LSV, etc. selected to go to wizards and provide your ideas?

Stephen has definitely earned it and he's rightly more of a rep for eternal. Ben Bleiweiss works for Pete, and presumably is more of an expert on the secondary market than his boss. The other person invited, per Ben's article (part 2) was Eric Reasoner. I dunno who that is but he's done some coverage for Wizards on the pro tour. Outside that, maybe he's chatted up Forsythe & co. making the PT rounds and has some good ideas.

Also, Steve doesn't get to decide which article are premium and which aren't. He's a writer on the premium side, so most of his article will be premium. I'm guessing Pete decided to make free some of Stephen's premium articles as Madrid approached (maybe to generate card sales?)

FoolofaTook

03-06-2010, 01:25 PM

I would have to laugh at the redemption thing btw. I know a couple of people with a collection that would make them balk and I don't mean just a measly playset of power. I bet they would cash in quickly if something like that came about just for the sheer ease of the sell. Seems like they would take a heck of a large hit if they implemented something like that.

If they seriously wanted to do a redemption program to avoid offending people who have significant numbers of cards on the reserve list they'd have to do an exchange in kind is my guess. They reprint fancy new duals with black borders and full card art and they offer to exchange 1-for-1 the new ones for old ones, with the proviso that duals turned in will be destroyed. That neatly gets around the cash cost of the old duals and also dodges the questions that would arise because of card condition. Any dual that arrives in one piece turns into a new one even if it is rag-eared and moth-eaten.

That would put the onus on value collectors to turn in their old duals for new ones, since doing so would be the only way to effectively take duals out of circulation. WotC then releases the new duals in some fairly limited manner (player rewards, judge promos, event promos, etc) and then follows up with them in a set sometime down the road when they decide it's time.

Collectors get ample warning that their investment is not guaranteed, although it will likely hold some value, players get to play with more duals, and those players that have invested heavily in duals get full sets of the pimp new duals to use right away whereas the average player will take either some time or a lot of cash to do so. WotC can use the entire process to effectively abolish the reserve list, while establishing the precedent that value collectors will get some form of compensation for having a card on it reprinted.

BTW, the side effect of all this would be that the Vintage market would crash as people sold their jewelry and other expensive cards in preparation for possible reprints of cards that clearly would not be worth hundreds of dollars in a reprint environment.

Antonius

03-06-2010, 11:35 PM

FoolofaTook

03-06-2010, 11:41 PM

IMo that kind of redemption process might make some people hold onto their old duals (esp. Beta ones) that are in good condition. Value of old duals would shoot up after redemption process because there would be so few of them less, thus increasing their desirability as collectibles.

If WotC did it right they new duals would be so nice that only collectors with mint Revised duals for their collection would hold on to them. Beta and Alphas would never get turned in unless they were really ragged. I don't think Revised duals have anywhere to go but down in a reprint scenario.

Bardo

03-07-2010, 12:05 AM

If WotC did it right they new duals would be so nice that only collectors with mint Revised duals for their collection would hold on to them. Beta and Alphas would never get turned in unless they were really ragged. I don't think Revised duals have anywhere to go but down in a reprint scenario.

So what? I own a few dozen RV duals (mostly NM-) and have no issues if they fall in value. Like most people, I bought my duals to build and play decks -- not try to make money. It's cool they have value, but that's besides the point. As a player, I want people to play Legacy. Difficult to do when a single Underground Sea costs $60 - $70. If Wizards reprints duals (and I really hope they do), I'll continue playing my RV duals. They work just fine.

FoolofaTook

03-07-2010, 02:47 AM

So what? I own a few dozen RV duals (mostly NM-) and have no issues if they fall in value. Like most people, I bought my duals to build and play decks -- not try to make money. It's cool they have value, but that's besides the point. As a player, I want people to play Legacy. Difficult to do when a single Underground Sea costs $60 - $70. If Wizards reprints duals (and I really hope they do), I'll continue playing my RV duals. They work just fine.

Again, I really believe you are not seeing the big picture here. If they just reprint duals and not a lot of other staples there's going to be just as big a barrier for new people to join the format as there is now. The only difference is that it will be skyrocketing staples that people can't afford that will be the problem instead. If they doubled the number of duals in circulation without reprinting Tarmogoyf he'd go to $150 within months. Force of Will would go to $75. Other staples would go straight up in price also.

Dual lands are not the problem in the Legacy cost curve. They're a symptom. The problem is that Legacy is a format dominated by rare cards that WotC would rather not reprint. We're the repository of almost broken to broken cards that are likely to always be in short supply because WotC considers them mistakes not in keeping with a healthy Standard or Draft environment. As that repository Legacy is always going to be short of the staple cards and very expensive. If you really want a cheap Legacy the answer is periodic bannings based on card price. Nothing else is going to keep this format from going through the roof in cost to play as long as it remains popular. If it becomes unpopular then card prices will stay flat or decline. But when people want to play Legacy, like they have over the last 6 months, the only place for prices to go is up. Reprint dual lands and the price spiral will start upwards again. Duals won't go up in price if the market is flooded with them but everything else will.

All of that aside, on the topic of reprints, I'd definitely rather be playing nice new black bordered duals with full card art as opposed to the revised duals which are mostly ugly. If I had the opportunity to turn in for the nice new ones in a reprint scenario I'd probably take it.

Antonius

03-07-2010, 04:38 AM

I've said it before, I think earlier in this thread, but WotC should just make an entire reprint set, a la Master's edition. Pump it full of our most important legacy staples, add in more old cards, just for nostalgia's sake, then balance it so that it could also be fun in sealed/draft play.

This would be great--not just for helping new people getting into legacy, but for legacy tournament organizers, who can then start putting up boxes/cases of this new "Masters Edition" as prizes.

Bardo

03-07-2010, 12:42 PM

Again, I really believe you are not seeing the big picture here. If they just reprint duals and not a lot of other staples there's going to be just as big a barrier for new people to join the format as there is now. The only difference is that it will be skyrocketing staples that people can't afford that will be the problem instead. If they doubled the number of duals in circulation without reprinting Tarmogoyf he'd go to $150 within months. Force of Will would go to $75. Other staples would go straight up in price also.

Honestly, I hadn't imagined a reprint scenario where Wizards only reprinted the dual lands. The duals, I believe, are the most obvious and critical cards needing to be reprinted (which is why people keep on bringing them up). Force, Wasteland, Goyf and quite a few others should also see reprint.

FoolofaTook

03-07-2010, 02:20 PM

Honestly, I hadn't imagined a reprint scenario where Wizards only reprinted the dual lands. The duals, I believe, are the most obvious and critical cards needing to be reprinted (which is why people keep on bringing them up). Force, Wasteland, Goyf and quite a few others should also see reprint.

I could be wrong on this and if so I'll concede your point. I think though that what you and many others are effectively asking WotC to do is to prioritize Legacy and put their main business model on the back burner while they do so. I honestly don't believe that they are likely to do this. Legacy is the effective holder of 99.99% of things eternal for Magic. The whole point of the format is to allow players to leverage the cards they have collected over the years and make really cool decks out of them that do things well beyond the power level that WotC ever wants to see assembled in a current set. It would cheapen Magic as a whole if the entire history of Magic was suddenly opened up with the most powerful cards reprinted and easily available. The entire point of a collectible game in which collectability partly stemmed from the power in the cards would be blunted heavily in the process.

There was a point when WotC had to make the choice between a relatively limited card set, heavily controlled and promoted and with a few additions now and then, and printing hundreds of new cards a year. That point basically happened at the time of the original format split. Once they decided to go the route of thousands and thousands of cards added over time they also gave up the ability to easily reprint cards, because doing so would have resulted in an effective cannibalization of their long-term plan. You can't keep reprinting powerful staples in set after set and expect people to also buy the thousands of new cards you want to put out over time.

Legacy is a reward for long-term players who have supported Magic over the years. It's their chance, given by their devotion to the game, to assemble some of the most powerful decks ever created. When people buy in to Legacy heavily, spending a lot of money on the secondary market to do so, the odds are very strong they'll join this devoted long-term legion of Magic fanatics. This is good for Magic and WotC as a whole. It exemplifies the value of Magic: The Gathering as a long-term force in the gaming world. Magic is the only survivor of the first generation of CCG's. It's the only long-term CCG that adults choose to play that is still in print. It's also the only game that has carefully provided multiple formats for players to play in over the years, and by so doing rewarded players for their ongoing investment in the game.

Will WotC suddenly throw everything up in the air and make Legacy a non-eternal format by reprinting much of what you need to play it in a short-term timeframe? It just doesn't seem plausible. The only way I see it as likely to occur is if WotC thinks that the relatively limited scope of Standard no longer appeals to enough new converts to keep the game going. If that's the case then they'll do whatever they think they need to do to keep the game alive.

Bardo

03-07-2010, 03:08 PM

I think though that what you and many others are effectively asking WotC to do is to prioritize Legacy and put their main business model on the back burner while they do so.

What are you talking about and who are you to argue for or against their business model? Is this really how you're going to frame your argument?

Legacy is a reward for long-term players who have supported Magic over the years. It's their chance, given by their devotion to the game, to assemble some of the most powerful decks ever created.

This is an assertion, posed as a fact. Who are you to say what Legacy should or shouldn't be? Legacy is an officially-supported format, not a "reward" for "devoted" fans. What a weird thing to say.

Will WotC suddenly throw everything up in the air and make Legacy a non-eternal format by reprinting much of what you need to play it in a short-term timeframe?

No. I've said this before, but it's difficult to take you serious. No one is suggesting WotC "suddenly throw everything up in the air." I and others are urging WotC to explore available options to make sure Legacy doesn't go the way of Vintage. I wouldn't argue that we see Taiga printed M12 or Force of Will in Rise of the Eldrazi (or whatever). Ben Bleiweiss goes into a few of these options here (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/misc/18824_Insider_Trading_The_Cost_of_Cards_Mr_Bleiweiss_goes_to_Washington_Part_2_of_3.html). (Personally, I like numbers 1 and 5 the most: 1) Reprints in Duel Decks/Premium Deck: Slivers type products; 5) Make Master's Edition reprint sets, like they have online.)

FoolofaTook

03-07-2010, 04:57 PM

What are you talking about and who are you to argue for or against their business model? Is this really how you're going to frame your argument?

I'm not doing this, you are. You're explicitly asking them to do things that they have not done in the past in order to support Legacy. That's asking them to go against their existing business model. I'm just pointing out that this is in effect what you are doing.

This is an assertion, posed as a fact. Who are you to say what Legacy should or shouldn't be? Legacy is an officially-supported format, not a "reward" for "devoted" fans. What a weird thing to say.

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtgcom/daily/bd182

“We have had many contacts from players asking what we were going to do with the Legacy format,” explained DCI Program Manager Scott Larabee. “With the Extended rotation happening in October, we felt that it is the perfect time to promote this format. The Legacy format will provide a place for players to play with their older cards after they rotate out of Extended. At the same time, Legacy-format Grand Prix will provide a new challenge for the advanced players that attend Grand Prix.”

"The expense of some of the older cards – notably the dual lands and Force of Will – will give some newer players pause. I asked Randy Buehler how much consideration was given to the format's costs to entry and what involvement R&D has had in the decision to move forward with these high profile events. He explained that they would be paying careful attention to the attendance at both tournaments to determine how to proceed in the future.

“We do have some concern over the availability and affordability of cards, but we currently think this format will be much closer to Extended than Type 1," Buehler said. "These Grand Prix are very much an experiment – if it turns out that lots of people come out of the woodwork because they've been waiting for a chance to play with some of their favorite old cards, then we'll know that we should support the format even more. If no one turns out because no one can get the cards they need, then we'll know that the barrier to entry is too high and we should support it less."

Kind of wraps up neatly the point I've been making about Legacy depending on the players, not the players depending on WotC to support Legacy.

BTW, the Steve Menendian article on Legacy in July of 2005 specifically noted that Underground Seas were selling for $38 and other blue duals and Force of Will for $30. Things really have not changed very much since then. Staples were expensive and still are. The difference is that the number of staples has risen exponentially as the years passed. This will be true in the future also.

Smmenen

03-08-2010, 12:31 AM

I'm not doing this, you are. You're explicitly asking them to do things that they have not done in the past in order to support Legacy. That's asking them to go against their existing business model. I'm just pointing out that this is in effect what you are doing.

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtgcom/daily/bd182

“We have had many contacts from players asking what we were going to do with the Legacy format,” explained DCI Program Manager Scott Larabee. “With the Extended rotation happening in October, we felt that it is the perfect time to promote this format. The Legacy format will provide a place for players to play with their older cards after they rotate out of Extended. At the same time, Legacy-format Grand Prix will provide a new challenge for the advanced players that attend Grand Prix.”

"The expense of some of the older cards – notably the dual lands and Force of Will – will give some newer players pause. I asked Randy Buehler how much consideration was given to the format's costs to entry and what involvement R&D has had in the decision to move forward with these high profile events. He explained that they would be paying careful attention to the attendance at both tournaments to determine how to proceed in the future.

“We do have some concern over the availability and affordability of cards, but we currently think this format will be much closer to Extended than Type 1," Buehler said. "These Grand Prix are very much an experiment – if it turns out that lots of people come out of the woodwork because they've been waiting for a chance to play with some of their favorite old cards, then we'll know that we should support the format even more. If no one turns out because no one can get the cards they need, then we'll know that the barrier to entry is too high and we should support it less."

Kind of wraps up neatly the point I've been making about Legacy depending on the players, not the players depending on WotC to support Legacy.

BTW, the Steve Menendian article on Legacy in July of 2005 specifically noted that Underground Seas were selling for $38 and other blue duals and Force of Will for $30. Things really have not changed very much since then. Staples were expensive and still are. The difference is that the number of staples has risen exponentially as the years passed. This will be true in the future also.

SCG was selling Seas for $38. Now they are selling them for $89.99. The same Revised card.

That's obviously not the same price. Your flat wrong.

FoolofaTook

03-08-2010, 01:02 AM

SCG was selling Seas for $38. Now they are selling them for $89.99. The same Revised card.

That's obviously not the same price. Your flat wrong.

Why are you, or anyone else for that matter, buying cards that are 30% over-priced based on what you can get them for in many peer-to-peer internet sales arrangements?

Underground Seas can be had for $55 or so online at this point. That price has dropped by $10 in just the week since Madrid. It'll be back down to high 40's by this time next month, and then will probably go back up some before the next GP.

Editing to say: I went and found 3 commercial sites that both have stock on Underground Seas (dozens in one of the sites) and are selling in the range of $61 to $69 at this point. That makes the price you quoted seem a bit out of touch with the card's actual value, don't you think? It's important that we not let the argument over card values be defined by the outfits that charge the most, because they're really not good indicators of where a card's value really is. I was also really surprised to see a site selling Underground Seas at a very high price that was also out of stock on them. That tells us a little bit about the strangeness of the economics involved - one site is selling dozens of the card at a price 30% lower than another site that is apparently out of stock.

Smmenen

03-08-2010, 10:49 AM

Why are you, or anyone else for that matter, buying cards that are 30% over-priced based on what you can get them for in many peer-to-peer internet sales arrangements?

Underground Seas can be had for $55 or so online at this point. That price has dropped by $10 in just the week since Madrid. It'll be back down to high 40's by this time next month, and then will probably go back up some before the next GP.

Editing to say: I went and found 3 commercial sites that both have stock on Underground Seas (dozens in one of the sites) and are selling in the range of $61 to $69 at this point. That makes the price you quoted seem a bit out of touch with the card's actual value, don't you think? It's important that we not let the argument over card values be defined by the outfits that charge the most, because they're really not good indicators of where a card's value really is. I was also really surprised to see a site selling Underground Seas at a very high price that was also out of stock on them. That tells us a little bit about the strangeness of the economics involved - one site is selling dozens of the card at a price 30% lower than another site that is apparently out of stock.

The 2005 quote you found from me was citing SCG prices. You want to be able to cite 2005 SCG prices, but not 2010 SCG prices to compare them too? You want to cite the highest 2005 prices, but the lowest 2010 prices.

Your arguments and your points are nonsense.

FoolofaTook

03-08-2010, 10:56 AM

The 2005 quote you found from me was citing SCG prices. You want to be able to cite 2005 SCG prices, but not 2010 SCG prices to compare them too? You want to cite the highest 2005 prices, but the lowest 2010 prices.

Your arguments and your points are nonsense.

You cited the highest prices in 2005 to make your point that Legacy was very expensive and this might be a barrier to entry to the format.

Now, in the immediate aftermath of the largest organized Magic tourney ever, you are citing the highest prices to point out that Magic is expensive and this might be a barrier to entry to the format.

Who exactly is talking nonsense here?

majikal

03-08-2010, 11:08 AM

The 2005 quote you found from me was citing SCG prices. You want to be able to cite 2005 SCG prices, but not 2010 SCG prices to compare them too? You want to cite the highest 2005 prices, but the lowest 2010 prices.

Your arguments and your points are nonsense.
I hate to say it, but Foolofatook is right here. Revised USeas are pretty consistently ending on eBay at an average of about $55, with outliers at 40 and 70.

DrJones

03-08-2010, 11:20 AM

I hate to say it, but Foolofatook is right here. Revised USeas are pretty consistently ending on eBay at an average of about $55, with outliers at 40 and 70.No, you are both wrong. What stephen meant is that in 2005, ebay already existed and was far cheaper than StarcityGames. To illustrate how much the prices have raised in five years, you can either compare ebay prices, or Starcitygames prices, but you can't compare prices from different sources. If you can't understand this simple concept, you have no place in this discussion.

android

03-08-2010, 11:39 AM

Mint Revised Underground Seas will reach $100 on Ebay this summer. Mark my words folks. It's no joke.

majikal

03-08-2010, 11:41 AM

So that means we can expect SCG to sell them at $200, amirite?

android

03-08-2010, 11:54 AM

$137.50, but you're basically right. They will always set the price higher and people will always buy at the inflated price. Then Ebay sellers will list their BiNs reflective of SCGs pricing and the cycle continues. SCG should undercut the competition (by like 50¢) and just work with volume sales. I don't agree with Ben's assessment that if they drop their price the competition will buy them out and then list at the "true market value". That's horseshit. Besides, his example of listing at like $2 below actual value is just an exaggeration to gain sympathy in the debate. SCG could run a lucrative business whilst listing competitive pricing and get a lot of admiration and many more loyal customers. It could be a virtual monopoly. But instead, they just hop on board with all the other big retailers and contribute to the price fixing that we're all complaining about. They don't want more cards printed so they can lower their prices, in fact I'm sure they're happy where the prices are right now. They just don't want to turn anyone away due to limits in their stock. This is capitalism and this is why capitalism is a terminal system that can't support itself indefinitely. I know that's a broad generalization and not exactly relevant to the discussion we're having but it felt good to write it.

FoolofaTook

03-08-2010, 12:01 PM

The model android discussed is being overtaken somewhat by events in the evolution of online sales. It is not uncommon now for many sites to gather their assets into one location for easier access. Those sites then effectively become downward pressure on prices because they are competing directly with the other sites displayed alongside them and the incentive for them is to downwardly price the cards they try to sell and work for volume and rapid inventory turnover instead of squeezing out every last dime.

I'm not going to list URL's because that's in violation of The Source policy, but if you go looking it's not really hard to find prices on cards from commercial sites that make the high end prices look absurd.

android

03-08-2010, 12:40 PM

And all I'm sayin' is that SCG arguably being the highest volume online retailer should represent the bottom of that spectrum (and they do well will junk/bulk card pricing). Even if you they are beating the price by 1¢. And the problem is not really with junk/bulk, it's with hype/card of the second.

Bardo

03-08-2010, 01:26 PM

FoolofaTook

03-08-2010, 02:20 PM

I read the article and your quotes and don't logically follow you. As I read it, Legacy was created as a place where cards/decks rotating out of Extended could still have a home. I believe that is the case and your link support that. That is far from being a "reward for long-term players who have supported Magic over the years" (quoting you directly) as you charactertized it, which I think is fundamentally wrong and suggests that reprints should not be done, since, presumably, only long-term "fanatics" (your term) are entitled to play this format. That conclusion, I believe, is complete rubbish and not consistent with an open-minded interpretation of the article you cited.

The specific quote "These Grand Prix are very much an experiment – if it turns out that lots of people come out of the woodwork because they've been waiting for a chance to play with some of their favorite old cards, then we'll know that we should support the format even more." sounds very much like what WotC intended was to reward players who had assembled a card collection and had no place to play it competitively. They explicitly say that if existing players are interested enough in playing their favorite old cards to support the format then so will WotC.

Nightmare

03-08-2010, 02:25 PM

Bardo

03-08-2010, 02:53 PM

The specific quote "These Grand Prix are very much an experiment – if it turns out that lots of people come out of the woodwork because they've been waiting for a chance to play with some of their favorite old cards, then we'll know that we should support the format even more." sounds very much like what WotC intended was to reward players who had assembled a card collection and had no place to play it competitively. They explicitly say that if existing players are interested enough in playing their favorite old cards to support the format then so will WotC.

I'm trying to be fair and open-minded about this, but cannot see how you're arriving at that conclusion.

WotC's quote (from 5 years ago): "These Grand Prix are very much an experiment – if it turns out that lots of people come out of the woodwork because they've been waiting for a chance to play with some of their favorite old cards, then we'll know that we should support the format even more."

This isn't rocket surgery: if attendance (at GPs Philly and Lille) tanks, they'll write it off as an "experiment" that failed (i.e. don't expect to see more Legacy GPs anytime soon). If attendance is good (as it was), they'll consider doing more of these (which they've done).

Doesn't sound remotely fuzzy or vague as to what they intended. Remember that Legacy wasn't quite a year old at that point and they weren't sure what (if anything) they were going to do with it as far as Organized Play went. They needed data, they got data, they did more GPs.

In any case, it doesn't seem to refute or support your argument in any way, but it makes me wonder how you're approaching the discussion.

caiomarcos

03-08-2010, 05:32 PM

I found it interesting and somewhat related.

"Richard Garfield, creator of Magic: The Gathering, on the collectible aspect of the game. US Nationals 2008"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gtqv5vYANI&feature=player_embedded

DukeDemonKn1ght

03-08-2010, 06:02 PM

I think this shows that Garfield has a healthy attitude towards the speculative end of Magic collectibility: It's first and foremost about the players. I like it that he sets his target price-point for a "high value card" at around $20 and says that he doesn't want too many people to feel driven away by the amount of investment it takes to play competitively... (Of course, the irony is that the sets he designed single-handedly are where we get most of our broken/ crazy-monetarily-expensive cards from in the first place.)

If anything, I think that clip suggests that the game's creator wouldn't mind too much if, for example, they reprinted the dual lands in such a way as to make them more accessible.

Anyhoo... Cue the discussion about "R&D is evil and they're holding Garfield hostage and trying to promote crazy levels of speculation."

Zilla

03-08-2010, 06:44 PM

I'm not going to list URL's because that's in violation of The Source policy, but if you go looking it's not really hard to find prices on cards from commercial sites that make the high end prices look absurd.
Just a point of clarification: linking outside card vendors is not against site policy, unless you are a representative of that site promoting your own product to generate sales. Individuals attempting to sell their cards here or promote their ebay auctions here are in violation of site rules, but linking outside retailers is not an inherent violation of site policy. Rule of thumb: don't advertise your card sales on these boards to make personal profit. You are welcome to link retailers as a point of reference or as a resource for other members.

FoolofaTook

03-08-2010, 08:18 PM

Zlatzman

03-09-2010, 02:58 AM

www.bidwicket.com

As cheap as you'll find Magic cards from any retail sites and probably worth 30-40% off the cost of many staples (by the big vendors standards) to players just starting out and veterans alike. I've ordered from their vendors a half dozen times (different ones each time) and have never had a problem with delivery.

I might also suggest www.findmagiccards.com in that case. They don't have a cart-system (you have to go to each site specifically to buy), but they list all the vendors selling from bidwicket, plus a few others. Makes comparison of dealers even easier.

bakofried

03-09-2010, 03:44 AM

DownSyndromeKarl

03-09-2010, 09:19 AM

I really like that Richard Garfield video.

jazzykat

03-09-2010, 09:33 AM

One assumption that I will bet my last dollar on is that Wizards won't do anything about the Legacy card supply until after the US GP, if they do anything at all.

IMO an anouncement about reprints would drop the price of cards before they were even available. Why pay $60 for the RV underground sea when I should be able to get it for 1/2 the price or less once its reprinted. Since Wizards is not in the habit of hurting dealers when card prices could be the highest ever, I think they will stay mum on such a point until afterwards.

FoolofaTook

03-09-2010, 11:35 AM

Actually, I think they're the same people, just one is more specific for CCG's.
At any rate, FoolofaTook, why do you think the format should stay expensive? What's wrong with Duals at $20, FoW at $15, or even Tarmogoyf at $25? I mean, the more people playing the format, the more minds you get on it, the better the decks get, etc., etc. Sure, you'll have a bit more chaff to deal with, but what's wrong with just chalking those up as an easier, if not easy, match, due to their supposed ignorance of the format?

In order for Legacy to become both widely played and less expensive WotC would have to stop printing chase rares and regularly reprint many of the staples. I have no problem with that concept at all but there's a snowball's chance in hell it would happen. I don't want them to reprint dual lands and a small handful of staples because that would make Legacy much more expensive in the long run.

I might also suggest www.findmagiccards.com in that case. They don't have a cart-system (you have to go to each site specifically to buy), but they list all the vendors selling from bidwicket, plus a few others. Makes comparison of dealers even easier.

Yes, that's another spot you can look. I did not reference it because my anti-virus has on occasion claimed that it was a re-director sending me somewhere much less desirable. As you point out it also aggregates sites and is much cheaper than the individual stores tend to be.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

03-09-2010, 04:24 PM

I agree on the Garfield video. Frankly, I don't see why Wizards can't just have a standing offer of $20 for any card ever printed. That wouldn't, as noted by Garfield, touch on special aspects of cards like foil, textless, original set or whatever. But $20 for a purple-symbol dual land seems reasonable to me.

Nebuchadnezzar

03-10-2010, 11:37 PM

I think in the Garfield video he's talking about Standard not Legacy. The question is never stated, but his answer is. It can be viewed however you wish. But he does also make the comparison with collecting stamps, in that you buy them for retail, save and collect them, then years later they appreciate in value. Kinda like old Magic cards!

caiomarcos

03-11-2010, 09:41 AM

FoolofaTook

03-11-2010, 01:53 PM

He is OK with cards getting expensive due to collectability but not playability, and is playability that is inflating the prices.

You can't have expensive cards and a system that creates scarcity without having playable cards become an issue in that system. For all of the talk about Magic the Gathering being a collectible card game the emphasis has always been on the game and not the collectibility. As an example there are Alpha rares that were never reprinted after Unlimited that are going for well under $30 at this point 17 years later. They're not playable and so their value never rose to high levels, and obviously all the pure collectors who want them have them despite that fact that very few were ever printed.

On the other hand, you have rare cards printed in the latest set that have spiked to nearly double that cost on speculation that they will be highly playable in Standard and possibly quite good in eternal formats after that. I admire Richard Garfield very much for his creative talents but he's as clueless about the economic ramifications of the game he created now as he was 17 years ago when he created it.

MattH

03-11-2010, 02:04 PM

You can't have expensive cards and a system that creates scarcity without having playable cards become an issue in that system. For all of the talk about Magic the Gathering being a collectible card game the emphasis has always been on the game and not the collectibility. As an example there are Alpha rares that were never reprinted after Unlimited that are going for well under $30 at this point 17 years later. They're not playable and so their value never rose to high levels, and obviously all the pure collectors who want them have them despite that fact that very few were ever printed.

On the other hand, you have rare cards printed in the latest set that have spiked to nearly double that cost on speculation that they will be highly playable in Standard and possibly quite good in eternal formats after that. I admire Richard Garfield very much for his creative talents but he's as clueless about the economic ramifications of the game he created now as he was 17 years ago when he created it.

When Garfield talks about 'collectability' he means things like foils, different borders, alternate art, textless, etc. Things that are different without being different in-game. He doesn't necessarily mean "high prices". Garfield is saying that he is fine if there are collectable versions of cards which are expensive, as long as a budget version also exists. Which I am pretty much in agreement with.

FoolofaTook

03-11-2010, 02:29 PM

When Garfield talks about 'collectability' he means things like foils, different borders, alternate art, textless, etc. Things that are different without being different in-game. He doesn't necessarily mean "high prices". Garfield is saying that he is fine if there are collectable versions of cards which are expensive, as long as a budget version also exists. Which I am pretty much in agreement with.

All WotC has to do to make this happen is to do away with the rare and mythic rare category of cards. Prices would definitely come down on the most playable cards and staples if they did that. They would also need to periodically reprint or otherwise replace staples such that those roles were always available in some shape or form that roughly corresponded to the power scale of the format in question.

WotC's actions lately, with the creation of Mythic Rares and the printing of power cards at that and at the Rare level suggest to me that they think that the model described above is not the right one for the product.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

03-11-2010, 02:48 PM

Which is why they're specifically revisiting the banned list with the obvious desire to reprints duals to promote Legacy, which they're clearly priming to be a core format to replace Extended.

FoolofaTook

03-11-2010, 02:57 PM

If Legacy becomes the default second constructed format then the WotC model that has worked will be in full bloom: a large format into which they can endlessly print chase rares with the certainty that lots of packs will get cracked to feed both the secondary market and tournament play. It'll be like a dream scenario for them.

So yes, I could see them reprinting duals to make that happen. It would make the Legacy format very expensive to play in, but that's the breaks.

Zilla

03-11-2010, 03:10 PM

So yes, I could see them reprinting duals to make that happen. It would make the Legacy format very expensive to play in, but that's the breaks.
Just to reiterate: I think most proponents of reprints are not suggesting they want only duals to be reprinted, nor would it be a likely route that Wizards would take if they got serious about supporting Legacy in the long term and keeping the format accessible for years to come. Duals have been a focus of this discussion because a) they're certainly the most important things to be reprinted if Legacy is to remain accessible, and b) their presence on the reserved list.

I don't think anyone in favor of reprints wants only duals reprinted, and (correct me if I'm mistaken) that seems to be the perspective from which you're approaching this discussion.

MrShine

03-11-2010, 03:47 PM

Hey guys,

This has been one hell of a discussion, and I don't really know where I stand exactly. I do have a few ideas, though, that I'd like to share.

As a newer player getting into legacy over the past two years, I feel like my investment into it so far has been significant; for instance, I recently ponied up for a playset of Goyfs (just before they spiked, luckily), and I have been slowly accumulating dual lands and the like. To have them depreciate at this point would, in a word, suck, as I would hate myself for spending all this money for stuff that I could have gotten cheaper. Now, I understand this is mostly a psychological construct, as I obviously have been playing with them and enjoying them thoroughly. Unfortunately, market value is far easier to quantify than enjoyment thus the presence of my disappointment should these cards devalue. Basically, half the reason I have had the balls to drop 1000s of dollars on magic is the knowledge that I could always get it back if I needed it (the other half of this equation being my actual love/obsession with the game :D).

Also, I just want to say that I've been playing Magic almost all my life now, and part of what makes it what it is to me is the presence of the crazy, rare, old cards such as Black Lotus and the Moxen. As far as I'm concerned, reprinting A/B/U cards (and to a lesser extent, cards from Arabian Nights) undermines the richness of Magic's history and would cheapen the memory of those cards for me. Now, while in terms of playing this only applies to vintage, the fact that one needs these bizarre, valuable and rare cards has always been intrinsically part of the format in my eyes and I think that's exactly what makes it cool.

In a nut-shell, while I feel like I would initially be pissed off if cards devalued due to reprinting, I would probably get over it in the long run, as allowing better access to cards and in turn better competitive environments in the long run is definitely a good thing. However, I wouldn't want to see reprints of the Power 9 or other rare cards (ie Arabian Nights). As far as addressing playability of Vintage, I don't really have a problem with Proxy tournaments, as the more I have developed my legacy collection I have realized there are potential Vintage archetypes I could potentially build (given the 10 proxy grace), increasing any possible interest I, as a potential new-comer to the format, would have in it (which would increase the likelihood of winning pieces of power). Concerning non-proxy tournaments, they are just bad-ass. If people can amass the collection to be able to play in them, then the rewards should be great indeed.

Again, these are just my feelings on the topic, and hopefully something will come of sharing them here.

Thanks, MrShine

Bardo

03-11-2010, 04:45 PM

All WotC has to do to make this happen is to do away with the rare and mythic rare category of cards.

Playable / balanced Limited environments would pretty much disappear overnight, which is why this will never happen. Limited is fun. A Limited environments with Umezawa's Jitte at uncommon, for instance, would be played by no one.

I don't think anyone in favor of reprints wants only duals reprinted, and (correct me if I'm mistaken) that seems to be the perspective from which you're approaching this discussion.

I've been following this thread fairly closely and don't believe anyone has said that only duals should be reprinted. They keep coming up for the reason you mentioned: they're (arguably) the primary obstacle for new players to play most archetypes and they're on the Reserved List.

FoolofaTook

03-11-2010, 05:12 PM

Just to reiterate: I think most proponents of reprints are not suggesting they want only duals to be reprinted, nor would it be a likely route that Wizards would take if they got serious about supporting Legacy in the long term and keeping the format accessible for years to come. Duals have been a focus of this discussion because a) they're certainly the most important things to be reprinted if Legacy is to remain accessible, and b) their presence on the reserved list.

I don't think anyone in favor of reprints wants only duals reprinted, and (correct me if I'm mistaken) that seems to be the perspective from which you're approaching this discussion.

It almost doesn't matter what WotC chooses to reprint once they reprint dual lands. Unless they reprint just about everything that typifies the Legacy metagame you're going to see some of the excluded cards go straight up in value. Obviously reprinting Force of Will is a no-brainer for them if they choose to reprint duals, as is Wasteland. After that you have to think that Tarmogoyf is either a reprint or a ban. Engineered Explosives, Vindicate and Pernicious Deed are either reprints or through the roof. Dark Confidant, Grim Lavamancer and Mutavault are reprints or straight up in price. Chain Lightning, Life from the Loam and Thoughtseize are reprints or go up a lot. Counterbalance, Humility and Daze need to be reprinted or they put price pressure on the format. Chalice of the Void, City of Traitors, Chrome Mox, Mox Diamond, Survival of the Fittest? Leyline of the Void, Krosan Grip, Path to Exile, etc. There are literally dozens of cards in the Legacy meta right now with the potential to put extreme pressure on the cost of play and those don't even include corner case cards like Dark Depths, The Tabernacle at Pendrall Vale, Girindstone and Magus of the Moon.

Assuming WotC makes rational decisions on what they reprint alongside the duals, and doesn't think really hard about how to best make money out of the situation, then you wind up with a meta where WotC's decisions on what to reprint and what not to shapes the meta fairly decisively over the short-term: people are going to buy what is readily available and new entries to the format are going to be playing mostly the decks enabled by those choices.

Is that really what we want out of Legacy? A meta formed by the cards WotC chooses to reprint alongside the new cards they put out with occasional diversions as new cards enable semi-degenerate combos with older material? Do we really want WotC to lock in Reanimator as a perpetual DTB by reprinting Entomb, Reanimate, Exhume, Force of Will, Daze and Mystical Tutor in sufficient quantities that hordes of new players will decide to buy them and buiild the deck? Do we want WotC to guide people towards ANT by reprinting LED, Orim's Chant, Mystical Tutor and Chrome Mox? Do we really want to be staring at Tarmogoyf.dec forever at this point?

There's no good answer to the reprint question. Either WotC is going to heavily steer by R&D reprint decision or they're not. If they choose to reprint and steer we're going to wind up with an explosively powered format with the actual play selection of Standard - a few DTB's, a few DTW's, a few also-rans. If they choose to reprint and not steer, by just reprinting the duals, then the format gets very expensive. I see both alternatives as diminishing Legacy significantly.

Zilla

03-11-2010, 06:28 PM

It almost doesn't matter what WotC chooses to reprint once they reprint dual lands. Unless they reprint just about everything that typifies the Legacy metagame you're going to see some of the excluded cards go straight up in value.
This seems like fallacy. First, it ignores the fact that there's a far greater supply in modern print runs than there were in A/B/U and the earlier sets like Alliances. Reprints of staples from those sets, as you've already mentioned, are kind of a no-brainer. As for chase rares from modern sets, like Tarmogoyf, they're really the exception to the rule. Goyf is expensive because it's insanely strong in essentially every format where it's legal. The supply must therefore meet the needs of every constructed format rather than just Legacy. The price will come down some as they rotate out of other formats, but yes, it will probably need to be reprinted as well.

Garfield's point about $20 being a reasonable price point for a staple rare card seems pretty reasonable, and not an altogether unfitting guide for what to reprint. If a card's market value goes to much above that point, reprint it. Otherwise, leave it alone. Sure, the overall cost of staples below this price point will likely rise as interest in Legacy grows, but so long as it's under that point, no playset should be unobtainable by a serious player.

Assuming WotC makes rational decisions on what they reprint alongside the duals, and doesn't think really hard about how to best make money out of the situation, then you wind up with a meta where WotC's decisions on what to reprint and what not to shapes the meta fairly decisively over the short-term: people are going to buy what is readily available and new entries to the format are going to be playing mostly the decks enabled by those choices.

Is that really what we want out of Legacy? A meta formed by the cards WotC chooses to reprint alongside the new cards they put out with occasional diversions as new cards enable semi-degenerate combos with older material? Do we really want WotC to lock in Reanimator as a perpetual DTB by reprinting Entomb, Reanimate, Exhume, Force of Will, Daze and Mystical Tutor in sufficient quantities that hordes of new players will decide to buy them and buiild the deck? Do we want WotC to guide people towards ANT by reprinting LED, Orim's Chant, Mystical Tutor and Chrome Mox? Do we really want to be staring at Tarmogoyf.dec forever at this point?
You make it sound as though cost has been the most significant determining factor in what people play in Legacy, to which I respond: poppycock. Obviously cost will affect the decisions of some players in terms of what they decide to sleeve up and play at a tournament, but several years' worth of tournament history has shown us that the strongest decks are the ones that get played most and win in this format at a competitive level. At this moment, the only deck I think would have a more significant impact on the metagame if prices weren't an issue would be 43 Lands because of the cost of Tabernacle.

The decks that are popular now are not popular because they're cheap. To use your example of Reanimator, it's got a playset of the most expensive dual land and of FoWs, just to name a few. It's popular because it's strong, and it will remain that way until some force in the metagame changes that. This notion that card availability is going to be the sole indicator in what gets played in this format is simply disingenuous. The variety we see in today's metagame is a result of the card pool's size, and perhaps of disparate metagames, not because a bunch of kids can't afford to play the best decks.

I strongly disagree with the idea that reprints will harm the diversity inherent in Legacy. There's simply no evidence available to support this.

There's no good answer to the reprint question.
There's no easy solution, that's true. Nevertheless, it's a question that needs answering.

FoolofaTook

03-11-2010, 08:36 PM

With respect for your point of view: the Legacy metagame we see right now is populated by a vastly different audience than the one that would populate it if the staples were easy to obtain and the cost of entry was cheap. The Legacy population right now is a mix of long-term hobbyists and relative newcomers who are fascinated enough by the incredible diversity of cards available in the Legacy pool to make a significant initial investment in the staples required to play the game.

The Legacy population if the format became much cheaper and more widely available would likely become younger, more focused on net-decking (which is the norm for Standard) and less interested in the multitude of potential ideas out there and more in the here and now of what is hot and wins big. Most of them wouldn't look far past the power reprints, assuming the reprints were powerful, because cards outside that realm would be even more expensive than they are now.

The Legacy meta would likely become much less diverse with the influx of players who were largely playing the same collection of decks made easily available by the reprints.

It's true that the popular decks now are not the cheap ones. That's because the players playing them have already made the heavy investments (often years ago) in the cards needed to play them. They're leveraging a multi-year acquisition process into playing exactly the builds they want to play. To expect somebody (or 100,000 somebodies) to arrive at the same place as the dedicated Legacy player as they enter the format is unrealistic. The new popular decks will be the strongest decks made easily available by the reprints.

Zilla

03-11-2010, 09:00 PM

The Legacy meta would likely become much less diverse with the influx of players who were largely playing the same collection of decks made easily available by the reprints.
This seems like a gross oversimplification. For example, if they decided to reprint Wasteland, what single deck is everyone suddenly going to play because of it? Same question, but for FoW? Tarmogoyf? The very popularity of the cards which would likely require reprinting would be due to the fact that they enable not one deck but a great many of them. That's what makes them staples.

Furthermore, your premise seems to be that cost of cards is not affecting format diversity now. If the cards only get cheaper, why would less decks be viable? Even if your assertion that newcomers will largely choose their decks based on what's being reprinted (which I think is arguable), that would not equate to less viable decks in the format; it would, at worst, equate to a higher number of the most popular decks being played. I don't see that there's any problem with that. If anything, a more predictable metagame comprised more consistently of "top decks" is inherently more exploitable by talented, innovative deckbuilders who know how to find and abuse niches in the metagame. That's actually good for diversity.

majikal

03-11-2010, 09:52 PM

For example, if they decided to reprint Wasteland, what single deck is everyone suddenly going to play because of it? Same question, but for FoW? Tarmogoyf?
Canadian Thresh, obviously! What better way to counteract the unfairness of Reanimator than by pushing the deck that hates it the hardest? :tongue:

In all seriousness, though, Foolofatook's arguments are becoming tiresome, as they are obviously based on his own fear of what the format might become rather than any kind of sound logic or reasoning.

FoolofaTook

03-11-2010, 10:35 PM

My premise is that the cost of cards, in a population that has already paid most of the upfront costs, has much less effect on the meta than it would in a population in which selected cards had been reprinted and effectively emphasized for inclusion in said meta. There is room for disagreement on the issue.

In your postulated situation in which the dual lands, Wasteland, Force of Will and Tarmogoyf were reprinted but few other staples initially I think it is reasonable to assume that the newer players might cluster around the decks that that combination of cards promoted. Merfolk, Supreme Blue, Tempo Threshold and a few others. The number of reprints would be a huge factor. If small numbers of cards were reprinted then it might not effect the overall meta at all, just drive prices through the roof. The more reprints of a given card the better the chance of bringing the price of that card down but also the greater push towards decks that featured that card.

It's kind of a case of supply-side convergence. The more WotC tries to effect the card supply the more they cause the meta to converge on the reprints. So to effect the meta the least they should do the widest possible scattering of staple reprints.

FoolofaTook

03-11-2010, 10:43 PM

Canadian Thresh, obviously! What better way to counteract the unfairness of Reanimator than by pushing the deck that hates it the hardest? :tongue:

In all seriousness, though, Foolofatook's arguments are becoming tiresome, as they are obviously based on his own fear of what the format might become rather than any kind of sound logic or reasoning.

I look at the entire reprint argument and I see a bunch of well-intentioned people trying to make an eternal format much less eternal. I think that is a hopeless task unless you want to try to convince WotC that their interests lie in reprinting past cards instead of making new and better ones. Have at it though.

Bardo

03-11-2010, 10:54 PM

@ Everyone not FoolofaTook - Sometimes it is best to read a statement that you Think is Wrong (or Know with a High Degree of Metaphysical Certitude IS Most Certainly Wrong) and just move on with things. By this point, everything that could be said has been said. The only thing left to be said is what has already been said with slightly different words. Please let this thread die a dignified death.

I will personally thank each and everyone one of you (via PM) who feels compelled to respond to this thread but refrains. PM me to get your personal thanks. I will gladly oblige.

Smmenen

04-01-2010, 01:50 AM

Apologies to Bardo :) But this article is now free. Enjoy :)

quadibloc

04-02-2010, 11:54 AM

Then, we discovered that earlier editions of cards that have been reprtined kept their value, regardless of the number of reprints. It's not just functionality in relevant formats that creates value, but usefulness combined with certain edition. Numerous reprints on cards like Wrath of God and Birds of Paradise have done little to devalue the earliest printings of these cards. And more recent printings on other cards like Psionic Blast demonstrated the same thing.This strongly depends on the price of the cards.

A foil reprint of Black Lotus in a Duel Deck, for example, would cause the value of Unlimited Edition Black Lotuses to drop. Of course, Black Lotus is no more likely to be reprinted than Mana Drain. But the original duals, however, are at a price level where reprints are more likely to decrease their value than improve it.

Most of the cards on the Reserved List would benefit by being reprinted. Abolishing the Reserved List is a good idea, but reprinting the original duals is not. But they're the cards that apparently most need to be reprinted, in order to allow for an expanded pool of Legacy players.

People whose Mirrodin collections are rotating out of Extended should have somewhere to go. A Legacy Lite, which does not allow the original duals, as a new format in addition to Legacy, avoids pitting one group of Magic players against another. This may have its own problems for Wizards, in that an eternal format with no real barrier to entry might lead to people not buying as many boosters as they would if they were playing Standard. I don't think that this will be a problem, but I accept that Wizards will have to do careful market research before deciding.

pippo84

04-02-2010, 12:14 PM

I still haven't commented the article so I will do it now.
I am sure everyone agrees that P9 must not get reprinted. The problem with the reserved list are the dual lands as already mentioned.
If I where in WotC and had to reprint duals I would print them in WB and not foil versions. A foil Underground Sea with black borders would probably cost more than the FBB duals. Printing them non foil and WB the revised duals would not lose value (and I think that printing other BB duals they would lose value). Alpha and Beta would not lose value in any way. Maybe FBB would,but I don't think so, just if they would be reprinted in foil.
But Wizards will not reprint them, so no point on discussing this article further.

jrsthethird

04-02-2010, 01:06 PM

people whose mirrodin collections are rotating out of extended should have somewhere to go. A legacy lite, which does not allow the original duals, as a new format in addition to legacy, avoids pitting one group of magic players against another. This may have its own problems for wizards, in that an eternal format with no real barrier to entry might lead to people not buying as many boosters as they would if they were playing standard. I don't think that this will be a problem, but i accept that wizards will have to do careful market research before deciding.

cyos.

quadibloc

04-04-2010, 11:49 PM

cyos.Yes, Choose Your Own Standard is a great fun format.

But I think it's like Cube Draft in that it's a format that really provides no encouragement to people to spend money on boosters of current sets. So the support Wizards has already given to those formats - describing them on their sites, having forums about them, and so on - is all that we can expect of them.

A Legacy Lite, on the other hand, belongs to the chain Standard, Extended, Legacy, and Vintage. Legacy and Vintage receive support to help maintain the value of older cards - and the same is true of Extended. If Standard were the only supported format, people would be hesitant to buy new cards to just play with them for only two years - outside of casual play.

So, basically, I want to ask Wizards for as little as possible, so as to be as reasonable as I can.

Incidentally, I finally came across an article recommending one of the possible forms for Legacy Lite I had been thinking of:
http://power9pro.com/blog/2010/03/happened-legacy-reserved-list/

I had been thinking of Mercadian Masques as a starting point for power level reasons rather than it being when the Reserved List ended, but that is another valid reason.

DrJones

04-09-2010, 09:07 AM

I still haven't commented the article so I will do it now.
I am sure everyone agrees that P9 must not get reprinted.No, I don't see why P9 cannot be reprinted. I can see why some people and dealers could be hurt by a reprint, but not reprinting staples was what destroyed Vintage. "Players" don't want reprints because it hurts their "monetary investment"? Well, enjoy the stupid format that nobody plays and nobody can afford (neither could them, hadn't they bought the cards for cheap many years ago). In Shandalar there was a format called unrestricted in which you could play 4 black lotus, I guess you can also play that with your friends if money is not a concern.

The reason for the strengthening of the Reprinting Policy was "because the best interests of the individuals aren't always the best interests of corporations", well, then I'm boycotting WotC until they find a way to make both interests agree, because I'm not supporting a company that hurts themselves and their players for arbitrary and moronic reasons. If they weren't already owned by Hasbro I would say that they deserve to be bought by another company. Just because I play Legacy it doesn't mean I haven't bought plenty of theme decks, assisted to every release, assisted to tournaments and bought plenty of product for drafts. Well, I'll no longer do so, because I just realized that the purpose of the game is not to play, but to sit on my collection and sell it at astronomical prices a few years later to people that don't know better.

Ciberon

04-09-2010, 09:54 AM

I really loved reading the article, but I'm still sceptical that they really want to support legacy. I'm not sure if I believe so.

I definatly support reprints for everything you mentioned, including power nine. I love the game and I would like that others would be given the opportunity to enjoy it as much.

If it's really true, Wizards needs to decide wether this is a Collectible Card Game or a Collectible Card Game.

quadibloc

04-10-2010, 03:02 AM

The reason for the strengthening of the Reprinting Policy was "because the best interests of the individuals aren't always the best interests of corporations", well, then I'm boycotting WotC until they find a way to make both interests agree, because I'm not supporting a company that hurts themselves and their players for arbitrary and moronic reasons.Suddenly losing a big pile of money really hurts.

So while I think that they shouldn't have given in to panic over cards like a foil Phyrexian Negator the way they did, I can't agree that not reprinting expensive cards is arbitrary and silly.

I definatly support reprints for everything you mentioned, including power nine. I love the game and I would like that others would be given the opportunity to enjoy it as much.

If it's really true, Wizards needs to decide wether this is a Collectible Card Game or a Collectible Card Game.The Power Nine were dropped from the Core Set, igniting the whole problem of some cards having inflated values, precisely because they were so powerful that they were hurting the game.

Of course, reprinting the Power Nine would only hurt the game if they were reprinted (presumably as Mythics!) in boosters of a standard-legal set, such as a forthcoming Core Set.

I do favor a compromise solution when it comes to the P9. Being able to put down a Black Lotus on turn 1 for three extra mana does add a little zest to the game. Lotus Bloom can't do that. But this zest needs to be present in a measured dose.

So what I would like to see is cards like the P9 in effects and mana cost, but very limited in their presence in decks. How can you have a card, though, that says that only a fraction of a copy is allowed in a deck? One way to do it would be something like the way Battle of Wits did it - cards like the P9 that can only be put in a deck with 400 or more cards initially. As that would probably be going too far, I've thought of other more complicated schemes to achieve this goal, such as starting the game with a "hole" card - dealt out to the side like the ante card, but face down - with one card in the deck that stands for the hole card... except when it's a basic land with a picture of a P9-ish card in the art area, in which case it's the "hidden card".

So each deck has a card in it that could have about a 1/3 chance of being one of the too-expensive and too-powerful cards. As this makes the game swingy, it would probably be for casual play only, the way Planechase and Vanguard are.

And, as a bonus, these special basic lands would make dandy proxies that don't violate Wizards' copyrights or trademarks - proxy Vintage would become just another format, and so Wizards could safely loosen the rules on events in that format.