Could Legacy be a PTQ format?

[Anusien]

1) Do people think the cards exist in wide enough quantities to support Legacy as a PTQ format?
2) What would Legacy as a PTQ format do to the prices of the cards?
3) Is there an intermediary step between here and Legacy as a PTQ format?

[Skeggi]

1) Do people think the cards exist in wide enough quantities to support Legacy as a PTQ format?
No, people in general think not.


2) What would Legacy as a PTQ format do to the prices of the cards?

I guess this is a retorical question.


3) Is there an intermediary step between here and Legacy as a PTQ format?
Probably reprints of Legacy staples. They've already begun on StifelNought as Judge promo's. I wonder if they have the balls to print Duals as Judge promo's.

But since GP Madrid Wizards and the DCI will certainly look into their options on how to make Legacy a PT format.

[Jak]

1) Do people think the cards exist in wide enough quantities to support Legacy as a PTQ format?

No.


2) What would Legacy as a PTQ format do to the prices of the cards?

Go up... Unless they (Wizards) increases the supply, the cards would skyrocket up in value. The demand would be incredibly higher than it is now.


3) Is there an intermediary step between here and Legacy as a PTQ format?

Card availability. If more cards are readily available and cheaper to purchase, more people will be able to jump into the format. PTQs would then be possible since people would know about Legacy and be playing it.

Duals should be reprinted. These are the only cards I really care about being reprinted because they shouldn't be this high in price. In the past few years, the prices have at least doubled in value and this really impacts a lot of players. Almost every deck needs them and the manabase should be the cheapest part to build. Also, I hear people keep talking about printing them foil or white bordered. Fuck that. I don't want to stare at ugly pieces of shit across from me and if I do need to buy some new duals, I don't want to pay $50 or buy an ugly card. Make it normal, revised and unlimited duals will drop in value to hopefully where they were a while ago at $20 and everyone will be happy. I really doubt duals would go much lower than that if reprinted since the demand would increase with more people jumping into the format.

[Eksem]

Agreed. Print new beautiful duals in the next core set, please! John Avon, black bordered, full art.

[practical joke]

1) Do people think the cards exist in wide enough quantities to support Legacy as a PTQ format?

Yes, they have already calculated that there are enough cards available in the world to support the legacy format. (I'll edit the post when I found a link to where they said that.)
Also it has been a format used on worlds.


2) What would Legacy as a PTQ format do to the prices of the cards?

It will rise, but not much more than it already has after the SCG 5k tournaments and GP Madrid.


3) Is there an intermediary step between here and Legacy as a PTQ format?

Reprinting duals and other staples as promo foils or other foil reprints. For example dreadnaught/stifle, natural order, jitte, berserk ( not that it is a staple, but you never know what they are going to do), fetches.

[godryk]

1) Do people think the cards exist in wide enough quantities to support Legacy as a PTQ format?
Yes, there are plenty, but...


2) What would Legacy as a PTQ format do to the prices of the cards?
... this. Prices will go crazy.


3) Is there an intermediary step between here and Legacy as a PTQ format?

I've always thought that a mixed Legacy/Extended PTQ season feeding a Legacy PT would be interesting and perfectly doable. Why do this? I think that there are a lot of enternal and only-Legacy players out there that are totally out of the PTQ circuit. I mean, at least here in Spain Eternal players is a well differenced plyer grupo from PTQ-goers. This guys just made larger trips (300-600km) than us because of Pro Tour slots while a Legacy event needs an insane prize support to get this. Getting us, Legacy players, into the PTQ circuit would only be beneficalforWoTC. For example, some people I know that got pro points or PT slots on last weekend are seriously considering going to it or start playing another formats even though they're hardcore Legacy players.

Another interesting thing would be a Legacy portion in Worlds, not that teams crap. It would be interesting that everyone had to win some Legacy rounds to become Wolrd Champion.

[herbig]

I'd be interested in hearing Dube's take on this. Where has he been lately?

[GUnit]

Short answer: No.

Long answer: Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!

[MattH]

1) Do people think the cards exist in wide enough quantities to support Legacy as a PTQ format?
2) What would Legacy as a PTQ format do to the prices of the cards?
3) Is there an intermediary step between here and Legacy as a PTQ format?

1. No, not really.
2. Obviously through the roof. How is this even a question.
3. Yes, and it may surprise you: a legacy PT would be a lot smaller than a PTQ! It would mean abandoning the rule that PTQs are the same format as PTs, if that rule is still around, but ~300 pros could get legacy cards together easily enough, certainly a lot easier than ~300 randoms at a PTQ or 300*N for N PTQs.

[Anusien]

I find it interesting that in answering #3 almost everyone keyed on card availability, and not what I intended: tournaments. I think MattH is right in that the next step is an actual Legacy Pro Tour. And no, there hasn't been a PTQ/PT matching rule in a long time. For as long as I've been playing competitively, they've always been different.


010 PT Schedule: San Diego: Standard/Draft, Feb 19-21 (Sealed PTQs Oct 3); San Juan: ZEN Block/Draft, May 28-30 (Extended PTQs Jan 2); Amsterdam: Extended/Draft, Sep 3-5 (Standard PTQs April 17); Chiba Worlds: December 9-12.

If 2000 people in Madrid could easily get their hands on competitive Legacy decks, what's the problem? In the decks that did well, we didn't see any issue with budgetizing; no fake duals in any decks or budget replacements for cards. Hell, people even got Tabernacles.

And I've talked to higher-ups in the judge program; judge foil duals aren't in the cards for the forseeable future.


2. Obviously through the roof. How is this even a question.
Well, would they double? Triple? Go up slightly? On ebay, Force of Will is a $30-40 card. Would it go up to Mana Drain level prices? Underground Sea is a $60 card. Would it go to $80 or $120?


http://crystalkeep.com/magic/misc/rarity-info.php
Revised: 289,000 print run (per rare), so there are about 70,000 playsets of each dual land from Revised.

[MattH]

I'd be interested in hearing Dube's take on this. Where has he been lately?

Probably still recovering from the well-deserved beating his last article got him.


And I've talked to higher-ups in the judge program; judge foil duals aren't in the cards for the forseeable future.

Judge foil duals wouldn't solve any problems anyway. There would probably need to be at least 5k-10k of a given dual reprinted to get a price drop for Revised copies that's even noticeable. I don't actually know, but I suspect the judge foil prints are not that numerous. The big takeaway from Smmenen's article is that the likely way that reprints would help accessibility is not by having the old copies drop in price, but by introducing a new, cheaper version of the card.

[Anusien]

Then-Judge Manager John Carter showed me distribution stats on Bloodstained Mires last year. Given out to judges before they'd be retired, there were less than 3,000 given out. This doesn't count things like the FNM giveaways of course.

[MattH]

Then-Judge Manager John Carter showed me distribution stats on Bloodstained Mires last year. Given out to judges before they'd be retired, there were less than 3,000 given out. This doesn't count things like the FNM giveaways of course.
Well duals are in much less supply than fetches, so just because 3k didn't affect Mire's price doesn't mean 3k wouldn't affect Badlands. Still, given that there are what, maybe 300,000 of each dual? 10k seems like a reasonable minimum to affect prices, and if you actually want the price of a three-color manabase to drop under $300, probably more like 100k or more of each dual would need to be printed.

[jrsthethird]

Judge foil duals wouldn't solve any problems anyway. There would probably need to be at least 5k-10k of a given dual reprinted to get a price drop for Revised copies that's even noticeable. I don't actually know, but I suspect the judge foil prints are not that numerous. The big takeaway from Smmenen's article is that the likely way that reprints would help accessibility is not by having the old copies drop in price, but by introducing a new, cheaper version of the card.

How many MPR Damnations, Wraths, Wastelands, Cryptic Commands are in existence? I think that releasing the dual lands as the 20 tournament MPR card would be a better solution than Judge foils. Of course, you get 1 random dual out of 10 for each card for every 20 tournaments.

Pros:
- More people play 20 tournaments than people who judge X tournaments (don't know the requirements for judge promos, but it's obviously a lot less)
- Tournament attendance will rise because people will want to get free duals
- No price-gouging of product/other shady business from retailers (since it's free from the company directly to the consumer)
- It provides people who play Standard or Extended to have a boost to get started in Legacy by giving them 1 or 2 free duals per year
- People who don't want to play Legacy can trade their free duals for Standard/Extended staples or sell them
- Full-art duals will be in high demand and reduce prices of ugly Revised ones (they don't have to be foil)
- Shows Wizards' willingness to both adhere to the Reserved List (since these are promotional releases), and their willingness to support Legacy as a viable and widespread format
- Avoids breaking Standard and Extended by not printing them in a Standard-legal set
- Avoids flooding the market since they will not be mass-released

Cons:
- Guy who gets Badlands will be pissed off at his friend who gets Underground Sea (this is a necessary evil for this system to work)
- Might not have enough distribution to really affect Revised pricing that much (look at numbers of Cryptic Commands, and divide by 10; could make this a steady promotion that lasts indefinitely, this won't be an issue anymore)

I think this is the best solution, and I've mentioned it 3 times in other topics and no one has addressed it. Maybe because it's so foolproof that no one can argue, so why post on the internet if you can't argue about something? Haha...

[slylie]

I think it would be extremely interesting to have a Legacy PTQ here. We had about 120+ people show up for a sealed PTQ, im guessing a bit less for a standard PTQ. Extended PTQ last weekend we had just over 30. If the format was legacy I doubt we would get 4.

For the longest time I was trying to convince people to play legacy, telling them how cheap it is, since once you buy cards and build a deck it holds its value for years. I can no longer make that argument now that a playset of bayous costs $200 when just a few months ago you could pick up a set for $80, along with all the duals and most of the legacy staples. I love that more people are getting interested in legacy now, but since basically 3 of the 4 top decks play $400-600 worth of lands alone, I'm guessing a lot of people will be discouraged yet again. I own 4 sets of dual lands and still I wouldn't mind wizards reprinting them to make legacy more accessible to new players. A perfect way to do this would be releasing "masters edition" booster packs which contain reprinted cards from the past as they did online, only in paper. Wizards has more stuff to sell and we get more legacy cards on the market.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

People want to get their duals before they start going to Legacy tournaments, not after. I would create Duel Decks in paired sets. The Rock vs. Boros Aggro with Bayou and Plateau, for instance. Five sets over the next couple of years.

[yankeedave]

People want to get their duals before they start going to Legacy tournaments, not after. I would create Duel Decks in paired sets. The Rock vs. Boros Aggro with Bayou and Plateau, for instance. Five sets over the next couple of years.

I wanna cry - I agree with IBA :cry:

[oldbsturgeon]

There really isn't much of a reason it cannot be a PTQ format in the abstract.
Of course realistically things would need to change to make it more feasible, i.e. printing more cards.

[MattH]

I wonder if this wouldn't be a good idea:

Sell a "Magic Treasure Chest" that has something for every type of player. You get:

1x random dual
a random duel deck including 2-4x old cards reprinted (Natural Order or Wasteland, good stuff like that)
1x random Planechase plane (from a new batch of planes)
a draft set of the most recent set
maybe some full-art basics?

You've got something there for everyone. Old goodies, multiplayer, draft, casual play. Kill two birds with one stone - get Eternal staples into the hands of Eternal players, while drawing Eternal players into casual or draft or multiplayer, where they will hopefully catch on and need to get more cards. A product that gets Eternal players to buy more non-Eternal product is probably a very, very big carrot for WotC.

[Bardo]

I wonder if this wouldn't be a good idea:

Sell a "Magic Treasure Chest" that has something for every type of player. You get:

1x random dual
a random duel deck including 2-4x old cards reprinted (Natural Order or Wasteland, good stuff like that)
1x random Planechase plane (from a new batch of planes)
a draft set of the most recent set
maybe some full-art basics?

Just going with my knee-jerk here, but I love this idea. The way to max sales (and so, greater release of cards) is to appeal to the casual players. An ancillary product aimed at the hardcore Legacy player just wouldn't sell that much. The casual base (the silent majority) probably outnumbers the Legacy enthusiast by 200:1. Dunno if the draft set is necessary to make something like this work. My gut tells me the typical casual guy/gal is far more interested in constructed.

[jrsthethird]

I think it would be extremely interesting to have a Legacy PTQ here. We had about 120+ people show up for a sealed PTQ, im guessing a bit less for a standard PTQ. Extended PTQ last weekend we had just over 30. If the format was legacy I doubt we would get 4.

For the longest time I was trying to convince people to play legacy, telling them how cheap it is, since once you buy cards and build a deck it holds its value for years. I can no longer make that argument now that a playset of bayous costs $200 when just a few months ago you could pick up a set for $80, along with all the duals and most of the legacy staples. I love that more people are getting interested in legacy now, but since basically 3 of the 4 top decks play $400-600 worth of lands alone, I'm guessing a lot of people will be discouraged yet again. I own 4 sets of dual lands and still I wouldn't mind wizards reprinting them to make legacy more accessible to new players. A perfect way to do this would be releasing "masters edition" booster packs which contain reprinted cards from the past as they did online, only in paper. Wizards has more stuff to sell and we get more legacy cards on the market.

People would crack a shitload of packs and flood the market with a ton of useless old cards that no one wants. Every card in the Masters' Edition would drop in price if this happened because the supply is so great. Also, it would cause confusion with newer players who would buy the packs and then realize later that they cannot play them at FNM and that would upset a lot of people. It also will cause standard-legal set sales to drop, so standard prices will get even more ridiculous because there is less supply.


People want to get their duals before they start going to Legacy tournaments, not after. I would create Duel Decks in paired sets. The Rock vs. Boros Aggro with Bayou and Plateau, for instance. Five sets over the next couple of years.

This is a better idea, but still inherently flawed. The point of DD is a cheap way for people too pick up a couple decks and play. Releasing duals in Duel Decks causes a couple problems:
1. People will mass-purchase DDs, so the market will be flooded with useless reprints, like before.
2. If you put them at standard MSRP of $20, things happen:
- Mass-market stores (Target, Wal-Mart) will not know what they're selling, and will not buy enough to satisfy demand. People will be camping at Wal-Mart to pick up the latest shipment of DDs and buy the whole thing before anyone else can.
- Similar thing will happen at card shops, but a lot of them would mark up the prices to likely $50 or more.
3. You can avoid this by increasing the MSRP, but then:
- The supply will decrease and the effect on Revised duals will be marginal, making the effort useless.
- The point of Duel Decks becomes nullified when people can't just grab a $20 box at Wal-Mart and play for a while. If they have to shell out $40-50 for a couple decks why not just buy 2 intro packs and play with them? Or buy a video game instead.
4. The distribution of duals will be tipped in favor of certain colors unless they release all 5 sets at once. This is why every single "dual" land has been printed as part of a cycle (with minimal exceptions). So if your example was released first, there would be a spike in new players, but almost all of them will be playing Boros-style or Rock-style decks, because those will be the cheapest lands that they can get until the next DD set comes out.

If you're talking in reference to my MPR idea, MPR works for any sanctioned event, even Prereleases and FNM. So if you play at 20 FNMs, you get a free dual land, which can help to be a stepping stone into Legacy.

The only cards that need to be printed for it to be a viable PTQ format is more dual lands. You can adapt to other things but Rav Duals just don't cut it in Legacy.

[Forbiddian]

People want to get their duals before they start going to Legacy tournaments, not after. I would create Duel Decks in paired sets. The Rock vs. Boros Aggro with Bayou and Plateau, for instance. Five sets over the next couple of years.

How much would this MSRP for and how much would it sell for? Dual lands are currently like $30 a pop and Duel decks are now $19.99. Assuming that there's even $5 worth of other cards in the other 118 cards that you're given, that would mean that you're giving out Plateaus and Bayous for $7-8 a pop. We want dual lands to reduce in value, but not go down to like $10 (which is less than M10 duals).

I think it'd be nice to release two mono colored Duel decks in a pack and then add some multicolored cards and a dual land together in a separate pack so you can combine the duel decks. I think some of the draw of duel decks is that you can pick them up and play, but they're missing out on the deck design aspect of Magic.

Like say you get Jace vs. Chandra, and then you also get a pack of 10 multicolor cards or so like Prophetic Bolt, Fire/Ice and a Volcanic Island. So you buy JvC, your buddy buys Divine vs. Demonic (and gets a scrubland, maybe a spectral lynx and a tidehollow sculler in his bonus pack). You can mix and match all the different battles like normal, then create your own two color decks and battle Jace AND Chandra vs. Divine AND Demonic to see who's the ultimate Planeswalker.

The kid in me thinks that'd be really fun. Anyway, they release 10 sets over the next few years MSRP for like $20-30 each. Expensive enough that people aren't buying them up just for the dual lands, but inexpensive enough that new players can still buy this as a way to get into magic (in particular it adds the element of deck design to the duel decks, which I think was missing), and you're jump started with a lot of trade materials.


Of course, this does nothing about Wasteland, Force of Will, etc. etc.

[jrsthethird]

I wonder if this wouldn't be a good idea:

Sell a "Magic Treasure Chest" that has something for every type of player. You get:

1x random dual
a random duel deck including 2-4x old cards reprinted (Natural Order or Wasteland, good stuff like that)
1x random Planechase plane (from a new batch of planes)
a draft set of the most recent set
maybe some full-art basics?

You've got something there for everyone. Old goodies, multiplayer, draft, casual play. Kill two birds with one stone - get Eternal staples into the hands of Eternal players, while drawing Eternal players into casual or draft or multiplayer, where they will hopefully catch on and need to get more cards. A product that gets Eternal players to buy more non-Eternal product is probably a very, very big carrot for WotC.

MSRP of this product that won't break the entire market?

Secondary market values of the things included in this box:
Dual land - $25-60
Random deck with relevant legacy cards (where your examples are $20 cards) - $60-100
Planechase plane - $1
Draft set - $12
Full-art basics - $5/set, assuming they aren't ZEN lands

So the part of the box that deals with casual players ~ $20, the part that appeals to Legacy ~ $100-150

So if you sell it at $50 (absolute minimum for this quantity of product), no casual people will buy it. If you sell it for any less, you have the same problem that happens in every other example. It will not be fairly distributed to the player base, it will go to whoever gets to the store first, and the price will end up being over $100 in the secondary market if you missed the release date.

People need to pay attention to what happened with FTV: Exiled when you want an example of a faulty reprint model.

[jrsthethird]

How much would this MSRP for and how much would it sell for? Dual lands are currently like $30 a pop and Duel decks are now $19.99. Assuming that there's even $5 worth of other cards in the other 118 cards that you're given, that would mean that you're giving out Plateaus and Bayous for $7-8 a pop. We want dual lands to reduce in value, but not go down to like $10 (which is less than M10 duals).

I think it'd be nice to release two mono colored Duel decks in a pack and then add some multicolored cards and a dual land together in a separate pack so you can combine the duel decks. I think some of the draw of duel decks is that you can pick them up and play, but they're missing out on the deck design aspect of Magic.

Like say you get Jace vs. Chandra, and then you also get a pack of 10 multicolor cards or so like Prophetic Bolt, Fire/Ice and a Volcanic Island. So you buy JvC, your buddy buys Divine vs. Demonic (and gets a scrubland, maybe a spectral lynx and a tidehollow sculler in his bonus pack). You can mix and match all the different battles like normal, then create your own two color decks and battle Jace AND Chandra vs. Divine AND Demonic to see who's the ultimate Planeswalker.

The kid in me thinks that'd be really fun. Anyway, they release 10 sets over the next few years MSRP for like $20-30 each. Expensive enough that people aren't buying them up just for the dual lands, but inexpensive enough that new players can still buy this as a way to get into magic (in particular it adds the element of deck design to the duel decks, which I think was missing), and you're jump started with a lot of trade materials.


Of course, this does nothing about Wasteland, Force of Will, etc. etc.

I like this idea. Pricing needs to be worked on but in theory it's pretty good. The secondary value of the cards in the DD needs to be nerfed a little to price it effectively.

[MattH]

Just going with my knee-jerk here, but I love this idea. The way to max sales (and so, greater release of cards) is to appeal to the casual players. An ancillary product aimed at the hardcore Legacy player just wouldn't sell that much. The casual base (the silent majority) probably outnumbers the Legacy enthusiast by 200:1. Dunno if the draft set is necessary to make something like this work. My gut tells me the typical casual guy/gal is far more interested in constructed.

Well, that was just the best I could come up with for something to appeal to the non-eternal tournament crowd. The point is to make something that everyone can buy. Package it with those "deckbuilder's toolkits" that are coming out this year, I dunno, whatever people will buy.


MSRP of this product that won't break the entire market?
Couple points.
1. I've explained this before in other threads, but the market for eternal cards is NOT synonymous with the market for Magic. It's only a small fraction, and it's dishonest to conflate the two.
2. It is not at all clear that original printings of eternal cards will suffer all that much. Most likely the original printings will retain their value, and the reprints will simply be a cheap but functional version.
3. But even if they do, I don't care. Making legacy cheaper is the entire point of reprints! Any proposal that does not lower the barrier to entry for the format is worthless. If the price of that is tuning my duals into $10 cards, so be it.

[Forbiddian]

2. It is not at all clear that original printings of eternal cards will suffer all that much. Most likely the original printings will retain their value, and the reprints will simply be a cheap but functional version.

Revised duals will for sure take a hit, you're kidding yourself to pretend otherwise. A lot of people buy Revised dual lands because they're the cheapest (does anybody play them because they look better?), and if there's a large price gap between Revised and the new type of dual, some percentage of those people will cash out their Revised dual lands and rebuy the cheaper new type of dual. You're right that it's unlikely to be a major hit, though, and Revised dual lands will still command a premium over the new duals (unless the new duals are printed black border -- I really hope not).

Beta, unlimited, and Alpha are very safe, since people play them for style points regardless. Unless the new duals are printed black border, I'd actually bet that A/B/U prices will go UP because Legacy will be more popular and some influx of people will want to pimp their decks.



3. But even if they do, I don't care. Making legacy cheaper is the entire point of reprints! Any proposal that does not lower the barrier to entry for the format is worthless. If the price of that is tuning my duals into $10 cards, so be it.

I would be willing to tank my collection value if it meant good things long-term for Magic: the Gathering and Legacy in particular, but I don't agree that price stabilizing methods are worthless.

If Dual lands stayed at $50 for Seas, $40 for other U duals, and $30-$40 for other duals, I'd be happy (assuming that Legacy got more popular, of course). My fear is that dual land prices will continue to increase as demand increases and that dual lands could hit maybe $400+ for a playset. Then it will be very hard to get into Legacy and very tempting to cash out (and again very difficult to get back in).

[kkoie]

I don't see the price of dual lands staying where they are. They will inevtiably go up. Dual lands have always been a great investment for magic collecting because they always go up in value.

I think it's possible that reprinting dual lands may not negatively effect revised duals, depending on how they are printed and distributed, and market reception. If they market it in a way to increase demand among non-eternal players, I think that would actually increase the value of revised duals (and others) over time, due to increase in demand for the cards. Sure the initial impact of reprinting duals might cause revised copies to take a hit. But in the long run, when the re-printing is O.O.P., the revised copies would go back up in value due to demand for the cards.

[undone]

I think it would be extremely interesting to have a Legacy PTQ here. We had about 120+ people show up for a sealed PTQ, im guessing a bit less for a standard PTQ. Extended PTQ last weekend we had just over 30. If the format was legacy I doubt we would get 4.

For the longest time I was trying to convince people to play legacy, telling them how cheap it is, since once you buy cards and build a deck it holds its value for years. I can no longer make that argument now that a playset of bayous costs $200 when just a few months ago you could pick up a set for $80, along with all the duals and most of the legacy staples. I love that more people are getting interested in legacy now, but since basically 3 of the 4 top decks play $400-600 worth of lands alone, I'm guessing a lot of people will be discouraged yet again. I own 4 sets of dual lands and still I wouldn't mind wizards reprinting them to make legacy more accessible to new players. A perfect way to do this would be releasing "masters edition" booster packs which contain reprinted cards from the past as they did online, only in paper. Wizards has more stuff to sell and we get more legacy cards on the market.

Thats terrible logic. Limited is always a bigger format because it costs next to nothing to play compared to standard/extended. If GP's are any indication of size its proof that a healthy highly varied format makes price an afterthought in many peoples minds.Considering Legacy is the closest thing to a perfectly healthy format WotC has ever had (representing all archtypes nearly equally besides slow as heck control)

There is a limit to how many can play yes infact many cant play because they cant get cards, but if every one could play turn outs like GP madrid would be peanuts (seriously can you think if price was no barrier at all people would be turned away because of physical space issues. And You have to factor in travel costs.)

[alphacat]

People who say reprinting won't affect the values are kidding themselves. It's been proven time and time again that reprinting a card in anything other than limited quantity will severly sink the price of the original version. The most recent examples are Meddling Mage and Psionic Blast.

This will especially be apparent if you reprint stuff like duals and powers. It's true that A/B versions won't be affected much, but you guys realize that most people own WB version of those cards right? Like the poster above said, if you reprint duals, revised duals will SINK. People prefer older cards if they are BLACKBORDERED. If given a choice, I doubt many people will use revise duals over new BB foiled duals. Also, please consider that the majority of duals and powers out there are unlimited or revised. Thus, saying this won't affect the value of people's collections is just false.

I do support them reprinting staples, however, in limited capacity only. I think what they're doing with judge reward is good enough, there is no need to reprint stuff that is less limited than judge, even FTV: Duals is not a good idea.

[DrJones]

Aaron Forsythe just posted this in his twitter account:

"Doesn't 2200+ at Madrid lend credence to the idea that Legacy could be a PTQ format?"

If I believed in twitter accounts, I would totally follow him (instead of, you know, just visiting his page). :laugh:

[sigfig8]

I've been thinking some about this, and I've got an idea I want to throw out there. I do think reprinting some of the ridiculously valuable legacy staples (including dual lands) would be a good idea. BUT, only in limited quantities. And here's how Wizards can control the quantities as finely as they want: they sell packs of packs.

Basically, for about 25$ you get one box containing 3 random booster packs. These packs can go back to Unlimited (to protect Alpha and Beta black border prices) up through the most recent sets. With this strategy, Wizards can effectively distribute as many or as few duals as they want. Not only do you have to be lucky enough to get an Unlimited-Revised pack, but you also have to pull one within these packs! So if you assume there's 1 dual per 20 packs. And there's one Unlimited-Revised pack per 50 boxes, then effectively you have a 1 in 1000 chance of getting a dual land. And if wizards wants to sell 10 million of these tri-packs, they've effectively circulated an additional 10,000 dual lands. But they've done so in a way that is accessible to any player, rather than only judges, for example.

Plus how fun would it be to draft these tri-packs?

[mchainmail]

I've been thinking some about this, and I've got an idea I want to throw out there. I do think reprinting some of the ridiculously valuable legacy staples (including dual lands) would be a good idea. BUT, only in limited quantities. And here's how Wizards can control the quantities as finely as they want: they sell packs of packs.

Basically, for about 25$ you get one box containing 3 random booster packs. These packs can go back to Unlimited (to protect Alpha and Beta black border prices) up through the most recent sets. With this strategy, Wizards can effectively distribute as many or as few duals as they want. Not only do you have to be lucky enough to get an Unlimited-Revised pack, but you also have to pull one within these packs! So if you assume there's 1 dual per 20 packs. And there's one Unlimited-Revised pack per 50 boxes, then effectively you have a 1 in 1000 chance of getting a dual land. And if wizards wants to sell 10 million of these tri-packs, they've effectively circulated an additional 10,000 dual lands. But they've done so in a way that is accessible to any player, rather than only judges, for example.

Plus how fun would it be to draft these tri-packs?

You'd have to be careful in creating a package people would actually *pay* $25 for. Three packs is just meh, even if they can contain duals. But 3 packs, in a semi-coherent and draftable format in a package for $15 or less would sell. Look at the all-foil packs versus regular packs. Nobody cracks the all-foils, because they're at a price point unattainable for the average person!

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

How is this thread still open? It has gone from simply retarded to fairy tale land.

I lol'ed more than a little, reading this whole page of the thread and then getting down to this comment. Perfect timing, sir.

Anyhow. I just thought I'd throw my hat in. I am personally all for reprinting of the dual lands, largely for selfish reasons: I don't own as many as I'd like to, and I don't want to pay what I'd have to because I don't have that much money to spend on a hobby at this point in my life. I don't really care how it happens, so much as that it does happen, because I think it would be good for my favorite format.

However, the point that I want to make is that if it happens, it should be a much, much longer print run than From the Vault: Exiled. Whatever hypothetical product containing these would be pretty much guaranteed to sell in large numbers, and if making the duals accessible is part of the goal, WotC should go the distance to make sure they're available. Anything less would not really make a significant dent in the availability of the dual lands, and I think it's silly that some people seem to think that if this were to happen, the product should be either incredibly expensive or incredibly scarce. That wouldn't really end up making Legacy any more accessible, at least not to an appreciable degree.

I agree that printing them with white borders or the fugly new frame design is a good idea, since this would keep the value of the older printings from diminishing too much from where they are now. Honestly, I think if Legacy is given good exposure (as it increasingly is being given), and the card-pool becomes somewhat more accessible to more people, it could be a huge success in terms of popularity. It's not like we all love this format for no reason: it tends to be incredibly fun, and it's an amazing feeling to play decks that are this powerful if what you're used to is Standard or Limited or whatever.

I think I had a point in there somewhere or other...

[andrew77]

The SCG 5k Legacy events have all drawn over 100 people. The last one got over 200. The large p9 events in vestal got like 130 and 180 respectively. GP madrid got 2200. BOM3 had like 500 people. I'm sure that we can have a legacy ptq season as is. Prices will rise even more, but who cares. Its not like people are all that excited to play extended.

It is my opinion that if anyone truly wants to play legacy they can easily do it. Decks aren't as expensive as type 1 decks and anyone should be able to save up a few hundred bucks for a good legacy deck.

[JACO]

1) Do people think the cards exist in wide enough quantities to support Legacy as a PTQ format?
2) What would Legacy as a PTQ format do to the prices of the cards?
3) Is there an intermediary step between here and Legacy as a PTQ format?
1) Yes.
2) Prices have already risen as people prep for the largest GPs in history, so I don't see the prices going too much higher in general. Obviously prices for specific singles will go up as people discover technology or new sets are printed that make certain cards more viable.
3) There doesn't have to be an intermediary step. Wizards' has already explored rotating Legacy into the GP pool with great success, so I don't see why anything else would be needed.

[Forbiddian]

I think the American GP will see prices in USD higher than ever, especially now that there's a precedent of paying $85 for a Tarmogoyf.

[SilverGreen]

In the last days I can't stop to ask myself: how strange or how possible (in terms of power level, at least) would be a straight reprint of the original Dual Lands and other staples in, say, the next core set or large expansion? My personal thought is: today, it could be totally possible.

Try to keep your minds open if you intend to answer this question, because: (1) Wizards is getting better and better at breaking it's own paradigms in the last few years (as they did with Hyppie, Incinerate, Bolt and others); and (2) Legacy is a so diverse and healthy format nowadays, that turning former inconceivable Eternal material into modern Standard stuff makes more and more sense right now (without even touch that matter of average low power level of yore VS modern power creep).

[Anusien]

There were 76 PTQs in the US & Canada. If we get 30 unique players per PTQ, the season will beat GP Madrid.

The real issue:

[10:36:48] <BrassMan> I remember when they brought legacy to worlds
[10:36:54] <BrassMan> and terry soh was pissed because
[10:36:59] <BrassMan> his country never got duals and forces
[10:37:14] <BrassMan> so you can ONLY ebay them

[FoolofaTook]

There is a limit to how many can play yes infact many cant play because they cant get cards, but if every one could play turn outs like GP madrid would be peanuts (seriously can you think if price was no barrier at all people would be turned away because of physical space issues. And You have to factor in travel costs.)


The only positive aspect on Legacy of flooding dual-lands into the market would be that we might finally get back to the situation we had in 1994 where I could find a 128+ tournament somewhere in the tri-state area, or maybe going to Philly at the outside, every weekend and I could find a 512+ tourney somewhere there monthly. The argument from the player's point of view for creating the expensive and chaotic environment that a dual-land flood would create is that it would create a lot of choices for us and expand the competitive environment greatly. Your theoretical gigantic turnouts would be more likely to regionalize into manageable numbers at different venues each weekend, limiting travel somewhat and encouraging the development of regional tournament metas.

On the downside Legacy would fairly quickly become so expensive to play that people would probably begin dropping out as they sold their play stock and were unable to buy back in later, and the barrier to entry for new players would effectively be no lower than it is now, with dual-lands coming down and everything else skyrocketing in price.

In 1995 the average player who joined the competitive Magic scene became discouraged not by the cost of dual-lands, which were at the $5 level, but by the cost of acquiring all the staples they had to have in addition to the dual-lands. This history will probably repeat itself if dual-lands go back to a reasonable price level.