[Paranoia] Is U/B Reanimator the best deck in the format?

[troopatroop]

In light of Mullers recent win at GP Madrid, is it safe to say that Reanimator is currently the best deck? Several factors caused the deck to get much better, seemingly overnight (Entombs unbanning, Ionas printing, etc). How good is this deck? Does winning the GP make Reanimator a DTB? I'm curious to hear some opinions on this.

[FoolofaTook]

It's definitely not the best deck. I don't know what is at the moment but any deck that relies on the graveyard to win will never be the best. Too many ways to hate it out and everybody has answers in their sideboard.

Reanimator's a good deck but I'll be shocked if it stays dominant once people are actively looking for it.

[Rood]

Definetally a DTB no question right now. As far as best deck in the format...I wouldn't be so fast to deam it the absolute best deck...it's about even with probally 3-4 other decks. But it's damn good atm.

[Sims]

After playing the deck for a while I could sit here and debate card slots and play choices made by Muller, but I wasn't there and can't speak to it. However, I believe the deck is a DTB. Maybe not the pinnacle or the top deck, but it's strong and easily can hold it's own in the top tier of Legacy currently. It's straight forward as far as it's goal, but has the ability to protect it's combo and ride Iona and those Shroud creatures to victory while without the amount of thought and tight play it takes to pilot some of the better Storm decks in the format.

It's got it's flaws and weaknesses, like any combo deck, but I think it's easily a strong presence capable of being DTB.

[DrJones]

I think it will get banned, more due to Iona than Entomb, though.

[Nidd]

Interesting question, which card will get banned: Iona or Entomb?

[FoolofaTook]

Entomb is the no-brainer but Iona in any reanimation theme does something that is deeply undesirable for Magic as a whole: it weakens and in some cases invalidates mono-color themes. I was shocked when they printed her.

[majikal]

I agree that Entomb is on its way back to banland. There are too many overpowering creatures that have no business hitting play on turn 1 or 2, and being able to throw the combo into a blue control shell with FoW, Daze, and possibly Spell Snare/Pierce without sacrificing any kind of consistency only makes it more bannable, IMO.

The deck is so resilient to hate that it's not even funny. Faerie Macabre is really the only effective card against it outside of Leyline, and even then you have to have it in hand and hope they don't Thoughtseize it away.

[FoolofaTook]

Entomb would be broken as a Sorcery but it's completely out of control as an Instant. That's the problem. A blue deck can sit on Stifle, Brainstorm, Spell Snare, etc on turn 1 and then EOT Entomb anyway. I really don't think the deck as a whole is broken, but that interaction definitely is.

[Sims]

I really don't see it getting banned. The deck isn't as hard to disrupt as everyone makes it out to be. A resolved counterbalance is a pain in the ass to play through, as are Trinisphere and Chalice of the Void, black disruption spells, etc.

I lost playing the deck this past weekend to a B/G Rock/Dark Depths deck because he was playing enough hand disruption to keep me off game 1, I had bounce for his marit lage with a sphinx game 2, and then lost to a combination of duress' and seizes game 3.

Like any other combo deck, it can explode turn 2 or 3 if the opponent isn't putting up a fight, and the fact that you can run Force of Wills of your own is quite nice, but like any combo deck it can be hated out through hand disruption, counter magic, permanent combo hate (counterbalance, chalice, 3sphere, etc.), certain graveyard hate (Macabre, Leyline), and just shitting on itself if it doesn't draw well. I don't see FoW as being any different than the ANT player chanting you then going off, the major difference is that it's not as difficult to pilot as ANT or any Storm deck.

I don't see Entomb being re-banned, honestly.

[majikal]

I really don't see it getting banned. The deck isn't as hard to disrupt as everyone makes it out to be. A resolved counterbalance is a pain in the ass to play through, as are Trinisphere and Chalice of the Void, black disruption spells, etc.

I lost playing the deck this past weekend to a B/G Rock/Dark Depths deck because he was playing enough hand disruption to keep me off game 1, I had bounce for his marit lage with a sphinx game 2, and then lost to a combination of duress' and seizes game 3.

Like any other combo deck, it can explode turn 2 or 3 if the opponent isn't putting up a fight, and the fact that you can run Force of Wills of your own is quite nice, but like any combo deck it can be hated out through hand disruption, counter magic, permanent combo hate (counterbalance, chalice, 3sphere, etc.), certain graveyard hate (Macabre, Leyline), and just shitting on itself if it doesn't draw well. I don't see FoW as being any different than the ANT player chanting you then going off, the major difference is that it's not as difficult to pilot as ANT or any Storm deck.

I don't see Entomb being re-banned, honestly.
You could make the same argument for Tinker.

[elof]

You all forgot to mention the fact that Show and Tell makes the deck immune to graveyard hate. When I talked to the swedes playing the deck in the GP (One got place 33 and the other 57) they mostly said that there is no real hate against the deck, Crypts and Relics does basicly nothing.

I think and hope that Show and Tell gets the banhammer, basicly because the strategy to board in 4 SnT and 4 Progenitus (or other) is to boring.

I whould say reanimate is one of the top 3-5 decks right now.

[FoolofaTook]

Show and Tell is a 3cc sorcery and it's blue. I don't think it's as broken as it sounds.

[SMR0079]

Way to hijack the thread with baseless banning nonsense. There is no need to even mention anything being banned right now...unless you want another 20 pages of arguing about Goyf.

Reanimator should be considered a DTB for sure. It is more powerful and consistent then some of the other DTB on this forum. However, it doesn't have the resilience of Countertop decks or the raw power of Storm combo, or the consistency of Zoo.

[Jak]

A really good weekend for Reanimator and people want the bans already. It is a really good deck, but there are plenty of ways to hate it out. It does have a good protection suite, but it is still vulnerable to graveyard hate, removal still works on their creatures (bounce, diabolic edict, etc), and it is still a combo deck that relies on 1cc cards. People will be prepared for it next time and it most likely won't do as well.

Definitely deserves to be a DTB.

[majikal]

I don't think anyone is actively calling for bans at this point, but rather calling it like it is. Entomb is busted, there's no other word to describe it. If you look at the meta breakdown from GP Madrid, Reanimator was a very small slice of the pie, so the fact that so many Reanimator decks out of those ~2200 people did as well as they did is rather telling. I think following the win here, we will see more people playing it and the metagame begin to warp around it.

I could be wrong though. And I hope I'm wrong.

[Jak]

I don't think anyone is actively calling for bans at this point, but rather calling it like it is. Entomb is busted, there's no other word to describe it. If you look at the meta breakdown from GP Madrid, Reanimator was a very small slice of the pie, so the fact that so many Reanimator decks out of those ~2200 people did as well as they did is rather telling. I think following the win here, we will see more people playing it and the metagame begin to warp around it.

I could be wrong though. And I hope I'm wrong.

Well that's what I read. Anyway, I think one of the reasons it did well was because such a small percentage of people played it. No one was really prepared for it.

[Aggro_zombies]

Well that's what I read. Anyway, I think one of the reasons it did well was because such a small percentage of people played it. No one was really prepared for it.
Reanimator poses less of a problem of hate, and more a problem of deck construction. There's almost no deck in the format right now in a position to realistically beat a turn one or two Iona naming the color of that deck's removal, so in many ways it's like dredge in that respect (always picking up game one barring weirdness). However, unlike dredge, it is in a much better position to combat hate because of maindeck counters and bounce spells, as well as only needing the graveyard briefly.

Then again, even if people successfully split their removal package between two colors to combat Iona, the deck can always just find Inkwell Leviathan and kill you that way.

[johanessen]

You could make the same argument for Tinker.

Tinker is a one-card combo. Entomb needs some reanimate spell to put the creature onto the battelfield.

[Jak]

Reanimator poses less of a problem of hate, and more a problem of deck construction. There's almost no deck in the format right now in a position to realistically beat a turn one or two Iona naming the color of that deck's removal, so in many ways it's like dredge in that respect (always picking up game one barring weirdness). However, unlike dredge, it is in a much better position to combat hate because of maindeck counters and bounce spells, as well as only needing the graveyard briefly.

This is kind of what I am trying to say. The deck has such an advantage game one because people are only packing removal of one color and then a big advantage game 2 and 3 becuse people aren't packing the right hate there either. I think if people split things up (like Swords and Edict or Swords and Sower or bounce and Edict, etc) then there would be less domincance. Time will tell if this is healthy for the format though because then again, it is limiting deck construction (ie mono colored decks, green and red decks, etc).


Then again, even if people successfully split their removal package between two colors to combat Iona, the deck can always just find Inkwell Leviathan and kill you that way.

This too.

I just hate when people clamor for a banning when it did well on one weekend. Wait it out, see how it does. Don't just say ban when a deck does well.

[sco0ter]

Really funny to read this thread.

Half-a-year ago, people who opened Reanimator threads in some forums were laughed at and flamed before their thread was moved to the casual forum.

Seems like Entomb + Iona did a good job on its success. And I am actually quite glad that Reanimator is viable and no longer the casual kiddy deck, which many people believed it to be. Re-banning Entomb would probably push it back to its former status, which would be sad, since the concept of Reanimator is actually quite cool and outstanding and probably as old as the game itself.

[Tacosnape]

I love how the entire world went "Entomb is harmless" for years and now suddenly there's a movement to reban it. One mana tutors ALWAYS have the potential to be powerful.

Reanimator is top tier, but it isn't the best deck. It's just underprepared for at the moment. It will still be a strong contender when decks prepare for it, though.

[Nidd]

Really funny to this thread.

Half-a-year ago, people who opened Reanimator threads in some forums were laughed at and flamed before there thread was moved to the casual forum.

Seems like Entomb + Iona did a good job on its success. And I am actually quite glad that Reanimator is viable and no longer the casual kiddy deck, which many people believed it to be. Re-banning Entomb would probably push it back to its former status, which would be sad, since the concept of Reanimator is actually quite cool and outstand and probably as old as the game itself.
Problems might arise when less than 50% of the field can handle a resolved T1 or T2 Iona or Leviathan.
I'm not screaming "imbalanced" right here, I just think there might be some serious problems for other decks coming up in the form of Reanimator.

The question is whether the format can react to Reanimator or whether it warps around it. This remains to be seen. So, let's wait, tinker around with our SBs and find hate to combat Reanimator. Winning 1 big tournament means nothing, as we all know. We have yet to see how it faires on the long run.

[whienot]

Reanimator is top tier, but it isn't the best deck. It's just underprepared for at the moment. It will still be a strong contender when decks prepare for it, though.

This.

There is no need to clamor for bannings, just because your 75 doesn't do well against one relatively new deck. I hated, HATED, playing against so much CounterTop when it was the best thing since sliced bread. But the meta adjusted and things are fair now.

I imagine more people are pissed that they lose to reanimator because they did not take it seriously. I recall seeing a few quotes from the GP where players said "This will be the first time I've playtested against the deck." Thinking that you can side in your split of Crypt/Relic and win won't get you there.

Reanimator is incredibly strong. I've been playing it weekly since Nov. and have only missed Top8 3 times. It's also funny that it loses to things like Throatslitter and Staff of Dominance.

[DrJones]

Hey, I faced reanimator thrice on the GP and the results were pretty close. I won some games, I lost some games. I know there are ways to fight back. However, because the deck punishes monocolor strategies too much, too soon and too easily, I wouldn't be surprised if it gets the axe. Kind of what happened with Oath of Druids in Legacy, or with Trinisphere in Vintage.
Until then, I have a friend who is happy because he can play again with his four copies of entomb.

[Phoenix Ignition]

Funny thread.
1. Is reanimator the best deck now?
2. No, but it's close.
3. BAN SOMETHING IN IT QUICK, I HATE CHANGE!!!

I don't like Iona either as 3 good decks currently play her. Bant Survival, Ichorid, and Reanimator. I could see them banning her because wizards wants Magic to be more of a fun game and Iona's ability is definitely not fun enabling. I think she should have been a lot smaller than 7/7 to at least give decks time to find an answer in their off-colors.

But yeah, I think reanimator is a really good deck now, not the best, and probably doesn't deserve anything banned in it.

[sco0ter]

I don't like Iona either as 3 good decks currently play her. Bant Survival, Ichorid, and Reanimator. I could see them banning her because wizards wants Magic to be more of a fun game and Iona's ability is definitely not fun enabling. I think she should have been a lot smaller than 7/7 to at least give decks time to find an answer in their off-colors.


Yeah, let's ban Iona. It fits the "this-card-makes-magic-unfun criteria". Seriously, Worldgorger Dragon is banned, because it enables an infinite mana combo with Animate Dead... You still need the win card.
Iona seems much stronger than this...

Entomb shouldn't go, it enables a whole archetype. Probably similar to the "ban Mishra's Workshop or Trinisphere"-debate.

[clavio]

I'd say it's the best deck at the moment. It doesn't have any bad matchups as far as I can tell. Things will change before Columbus but it will certainly still be top tier.

I really hope wizards doesn't ban anything in this deck. The unfun argument is bull shit. How fun is it to get tendrils in your face on turn one? How fun is counterbalance? How fun is winter orb/trinisphere? How fun is watching your opponent take for fucking ever to figure out how hes gonna stack his cards after ponder?

EDIT: Also show and tell needs you to have the right creature in your hand. I don't think theres an easy way for the deck to get Iona other than entomb.

[xTrainx]

I'd say it's the best deck at the moment. It doesn't have any bad matchups as far as I can tell. Things will change before Columbus but it will certainly still be top tier.

I really hope wizards doesn't ban anything in this deck. The unfun argument is bull shit. How fun is it to get tendrils in your face on turn one? How fun is counterbalance? How fun is winter orb/trinisphere? How fun is watching your opponent take for fucking ever to figure out how hes gonna stack his cards after ponder?

EDIT: Also show and tell needs you to have the right creature in your hand. I don't think theres an easy way for the deck to get Iona other than entomb.

The difference between those and Iona is that those you have a chance of stopping.
Tendrils -> huge amount of pieces you can mess around in between.
Counterbalance -> won't work every single time, two pieces that are susceptible.
3sphere -> just wait a bit longer.

Iona -> oh shit, they just locked down over half of my deck.

I admit that playing against Tendrils/CB ect is unfun, but having half of your deck suddenly become worthless while you watch your life drop is just beyond unfun.

I would be really pissed off if they took out Entomb again, rather than just banning Iona.

[paK0]

Mh, the deck is quite strong, i lost to it twice before, but it never steamolled me.


But to hop on the banning train: SnT pls!


Reanimator is fine as long as it is gravedependant, mostly because then you are able to be prepared for it with your dredge hate.

[SMR0079]

For what it's worth, several pros have mentioned Reanimator as one of the decks that should be played, up there with Countertop and Storm.

Madrid confirmed this in my opinion.

I think the issue with Iona and monocolor is mute because those decks don't really have a serious shot at being considered top tier in a developed enviornment like a GP anyway.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

Reanimator is definitely a strong deck right now, and it's in a really good spot in the metagame: Most people who run some form of removal only run it in one color, and most prevalent graveyard hate is ineffective against it.

However, people need to chill out a little I think. It's not like it's without weaknesses. Reanimator has a hard time against Chalice, Trini, Counterbalance, and similar types of permanent lock elements. Especially Chalice, since about 80% of its business spells cost one mana. They have a weak spot against Karakas, although their threat-base is diversified enough that it doesn't stop their ability to play a creature, you basically prevent their best play (I-Own-Ya). Also, Reanimator is vulnerable to silly things that people don't run, but which could be considered: non-targeted removal (like Diabolic Edict/ Innocent Blood, etc), and some less traditional forms of graveyard hate like Faerie Macabre, Ground Seal (although they can still Exhume), etc...

I'm sure there's plenty of stuff I'm missing off the top of my head that's good against them. The point is, yes, it's a very good deck right now. Yes, it's probably DTB, probably even in the top 2 or 3. But I think anyone who calls for the banhammer this soon is just being reactionary.

I do agree though that Show and Tell is kind of busted in their hands, because it really gives them a strong backup against grave hate, so about the only thing that can permanently shut them down is to win the counter-war and make them waste their resources... Or else just get clever and nuke their shit creatively. Anyhow though, I think it's funny, because Show and Tell is one of the worst cards they use, yet somehow it's like their silver bullet against most of the ways you would try to hate them out.

[Clark Kant]

It's way too early to talk about banning. Give the meta time to adjust. It will work itself out.

[morgan_coke]

Well, this needs to be said:

Slide > Reanimator.

You're welcome.

[kabal]

Well, this needs to be said:

Tempo Thresh > Reanimator 95% of the time. True story and you're welcome

[majikal]

Well, this needs to be said:

Tempo Thresh > Reanimator 95% of the time. True story and you're welcome
This is indeed very true. However, it's also a hint of the subtle kind of warping that the deck will cause. It won't necessarily end up being Reanimator vs Anti-Reanimator, but it will cause blue decks to rise back to the top, because you basically have two options against Reanimator: out-hate it or out-counter it. Since the hate options aren't necessarily very effective against the deck that leaves you with one obvious conclusion - play heavy blue. Not that a lot of us have a problem with this, but it is counterproductive in the sense that it undoes all of the progress that has been made towards opening up the format to other color combinations.

[Clark Kant]

Between sideboard options like Leyline of the Void, and disruptive options like Duress or Thoughtseize, Black has a decent toolset to defeat the deck too.

I do agree though, the other three colors are kind of screwed.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

This is indeed very true. However, it's also a hint of the subtle kind of warping that the deck will cause. It won't necessarily end up being Reanimator vs Anti-Reanimator, but it will cause blue decks to rise back to the top, because you basically have two options against Reanimator: out-hate it or out-counter it. Since the hate options aren't necessarily very effective against the deck that leaves you with one obvious conclusion - play heavy blue. Not that a lot of us have a problem with this, but it is counterproductive in the sense that it undoes all of the progress that has been made towards opening up the format to other color combinations.

So, I can has my Merfolk deck be super-awesome in the meta again pretty soon? *crosses fingers*

[whienot]

Well, this needs to be said:

Tempo Thresh > Reanimator 95% of the time. True story and you're welcome

So true. Out of what, 15 games we've played, I won 2? Yeah, sure the two wins were in a top8 and I mulled to 5, details details. :smile:


The meta adjusted to Counterbalance, it will adjust to Reanimator, too.

[Eldariel]

Blah, next we know Karakas will be played in mono-colored decks and SBd as a 4-of to counter Iona...

[rleader]

I think the rush to play entomb has less to do with the deck being utterly superior and more to do with it being a lot more fun than the alternatives.

After all, as good as Iona is, the Protean Hulk build is considered by a lot of people to be better (win at instant speed, can use Pact of Negation as a second free counter, etc.) but no one plays it: it's less fun than running something huge out there.

[whienot]

Blah, next we know Karakas will be played in mono-colored decks and SBd as a 4-of to counter Iona...

I'm pretty sure I saw an Enchantress deck tech from Madrid that ran Karakas and Lignify as Iona protection. Oof.

And regarding the Hulk combo vs. traditional reanimator, I strongly prefer Iona over Hulk. The combo is clunky as hell and drawing multiple parts is miserable. I tried it in a few tournaments, but it didn't work out for me.

[BreathWeapon]

Can I play my Island of Wak Wak with out being laughed at now? Also Karakas and Vednilion Clique is kind of baller IMO, MDing that shit for sure.

[Happy Gilmore]

No, reaimator is not the best deck, but is a top tier deck. The deck will force individuals to run faerie Macabee instead of Crypt for their boards. Since they are well equipped for the later. And most importantly many other decks recieve major splash damage from the hate people will be packing for reanimator.

Zoo is still the best deck in the format allong with Counterbalance as a close second. reanimator is the new cool kid on the block and he is here to stay. The power level of the deck is very high and is reminiscent of flash to some extent, being both a combo control deck.

[DrJones]

Zoo is still the best deck in the format allong with Counterbalance as a close second. reanimator is the new cool kid on the block and he is here to stay. The power level of the deck is very high and is reminiscent of flash to some extent, being both a combo control deck.You are talking about its current configuration. We don't know if there's an even better build yet, and the list that won the GP looks frankly suboptimal to me.

[Happy Gilmore]

I consider the build that Alix and I took 6th and 16th with (respectively) at Richmond to be the best list at the moment. Of all the variations I have played over the last year, this one takes the cake.

Every Zoo list for the most part has a great number of cards in common, the fact that sub-optimal builds can do as well as they do only underscores the power and consistency.

[Peter_Rotten]

Legacy has SOOO much effective and easily splashed yard hate, that I doubt Reanimator will dominate. Most of this hate forces Reanimator to open with a counter or (if playing first) a discard spell. Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if Deck fell off the map again within a few months.

Crypts and Leylines are free and splashed into any deck.
Relics are next on the list, and are a very effective tool.


Random thought of the day: 41 Lands deck rise in popularity to foil Reanimator which has no solution to Glacial Chasm and sometimes Maze of Ith (not really :wink: ).

[Nessaja]

I'm not on the bandwagon of banning but saying that GY hate will kill reanimator is just wrong. It's not like dredge where the only way to win is by means of the graveyard; they still have show and tell and access to much better hate for hate then for instance dredge does. People are seriously underestimating the deck.

[Happy Gilmore]

Legacy has SOOO much effective and easily splashed yard hate, that I doubt Reanimator will dominate. Most of this hate forces Reanimator to open with a counter or (if playing first) a discard spell. Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if Deck fell off the map again within a few months.

Crypts and Leylines are free and splashed into any deck.
Relics are next on the list, and are a very effective tool.


Random thought of the day: 41 Lands deck rise in popularity to foil Reanimator which has no solution to Glacial Chasm and sometimes Maze of Ith (not really :wink: ).

41 lands isn't nearly as good as you think, for one thing chasm is in no way a foil to reanimator. A Iona naming green makes it irrelevant. Maze is a bigger issue and that can simply be taken care of with inkwell. I've also seen some builds with Gy hate of their own and other cards that hit lands effectively.

Running 41 lands in a format hating reanimator is a bad idea. The Gy hate that will be thrown at it will be extensive. Personally I wouldn't want to face that much hate out of the board in every match I play.

And you would have to be out of your mind to play Ichorid right now. Just sayin.

[Wargoos]

And you would have to be out of your mind to play Ichorid right now. Just sayin.

So basically the generall consens is the following:

1)Reanimator is awesome b/c it can play around gy hate.
People get to know and have to pack gy hatecards like the gy-robbing faerie instead of crypts to be able to fight reanimator effectively.

2)XXXXX

3)Whoever plays dredge right now is outta his mind! <- (huh?)
Please exaggerate this.

You think that people will try to fight reanimator with conventional gy hate and that it will become even more present than it is already (the Hate) which will make the world harder for dredge player? Like there is a "transition phase" or something till people realize that conventional yard hate against reanimator is doo-doo and just then start to play the macabre faeray?

If even gy hate does not work what should anyone do to fight a reanimator player?

[DrJones]

If even gy hate does not work what should anyone do to fight a reanimator player?Play a 8/8 trampling kavu predator on your first turn. That's what I did at the GP the three times I won. :laugh:

Playing a first turn chalice set at 1 didn't work out. :frown:

[Fatestitcher]

I would say YES, Reanimator is currently the best deck in Legacy. Back in the days, the old Reanimator decks were really sucky and only a few really paid attention to it. Reanimator carried this stigma until last year even after Entomb was unbanned and no skilled pilot is willing to trade their Tier 1 'Goyf' decks to a scrubby Iona and playtest this instead. Without the recent printing of these fatties (Empyrial Archangel, Inkwell Leviathan, Iona, Shield of Emeria, Sphinx of the Steel Wind) Reanimator would have remained suckky the whole time.

SO if the criteria for the BEST deck is 1) Consistency (Brainstorm, Tutors, Fetchlands) 2) Ability to pack disruption (FoW, Daze, Duress, Thoughtseize) 3) Having alternate ways of winning (Entomb/Careful Study, Exhume/Reanimate/Animate Dead/Show and Tell) 4)Having creatures that can win outright, outrace or definitely screw over an opponent (see fast fatties above) and 5) Speed or ability to win very early (Dark Ritual, cheap powerful spells) then this award goes to Reanimator for being the BEST deck in the format. :smile:

I'll be waiting to be gunned down once again as some of you may claim that other decks can also fit in my criteria above but I will firmly stand that only Reanimator can do all 5 with astonishing speed, consistency and resiliency in the hands of a Skilled pilot.

[troopatroop]

Legacy has SOOO much effective and easily splashed yard hate, that I doubt Reanimator will dominate. Most of this hate forces Reanimator to open with a counter or (if playing first) a discard spell. Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if Deck fell off the map again within a few months.

Faerie Macabre is the only hate card that can't be dealt with (apart from thoughtseize), and even then it's only a two for one. After that, you board Hurkyls Recall, Chain of Vapor, Echoing Truth, and still run 8 free counterspells maindeck + 3 Mystical Tutor. That's scary. Ichorid can still do well in the face of the hate, and that deck gets hit much harder by it.


Crypts and Leylines are free and splashed into any deck.
Relics are next on the list, and are a very effective tool.

Pithing Needle and Chain of Vapor are 1cc SB Solutions that are played. Yes they can be effective, but considering they also have to draw them, Resolve them, and Protect them in some instances, you really can't see Reanimator as fragile.

My point is really, that no deck is as unfair as Reanimator. Iona says, you can't play magic. Once you've given the deck an inch it's over.

[Zinch]

A hate card you all seem to be ignoring is Coffin Purgue. It's inmune to discard, bounce spells and needs 2 counterspells from the opponent. If you can avoid the show and tell (discard it or counter it), it's the best gy hate against reanimate IMHO.

On the other hand, I agree that reanimate is not that weak to traditional gy hate (it has discard, counters, bouncers and show and tell)

[rleader]

Iona says, you can't okay magic. Once you've given the deck an inch it's over.

Wizards is just mining an old card game for ideas:

http://www.trollandtoad.com/p126706.html

[Fatestitcher]

Wizards is just mining an old card game for ideas:

http://www.trollandtoad.com/p126706.html

not really. But the art looks a lot like my mother though.

[Wargoos]

In all seriousness.
I think it's mainly just the hype.
Contender yes, maybe even metagame warper but no dominator.

[whienot]

Faerie Macabre is the only hate card that can't be dealt with (apart for thoughtseize), and even then it's only a two for one.

Macabre can still be Needled and Stifled. Stifle is something I've been considering. It's only downside is that it costs an extra U the turn you want to do fun things.

Good catch on Coffin Purge. That card may very well be a gamebreaker in the mirror simply because you can Entomb it and flash it back.

[rleader]

not really.

AFAIK, it means you really *must* ask your opponent permission to play spells. Which really isn't that different from Iona.

[hi-val]

Blah, next we know Karakas will be played in mono-colored decks and SBd as a 4-of to counter Iona...

Karakas has disappeared from The Internet very recently. People will be happy to have paid $20 for it by the time of the GP. I fully expect it to be the next speculative card.

[majikal]

Karakas has disappeared from The Internet very recently. People will be happy to have paid $20 for it by the time of the GP. I fully expect it to be the next speculative card.
God I hope not. Anything that forces cards from Legends to be format staples is horrible for the format. Just imagine Karakas hitting Mana Drain prices...

The sad part is it's not even that effective of an answer. If they see Karakas they go get Inkwell instead. Or just start running Stifle/Waste.

[Rico Suave]

I would say YES, Reanimator is currently the best deck in Legacy. Back in the days, the old Reanimator decks were really sucky and only a few really paid attention to it. Reanimator carried this stigma until last year even after Entomb was unbanned and no skilled pilot is willing to trade their Tier 1 'Goyf' decks to a scrubby Iona and playtest this instead. Without the recent printing of these fatties (Empyrial Archangel, Inkwell Leviathan, Iona, Shield of Emeria, Sphinx of the Steel Wind) Reanimator would have remained suckky the whole time.

SO if the criteria for the BEST deck is 1) Consistency (Brainstorm, Tutors, Fetchlands) 2) Ability to pack disruption (FoW, Daze, Duress, Thoughtseize) 3) Having alternate ways of winning (Entomb/Careful Study, Exhume/Reanimate/Animate Dead/Show and Tell) 4)Having creatures that can win outright, outrace or definitely screw over an opponent (see fast fatties above) and 5) Speed or ability to win very early (Dark Ritual, cheap powerful spells) then this award goes to Reanimator for being the BEST deck in the format. :smile:

I'll be waiting to be gunned down once again as some of you may claim that other decks can also fit in my criteria above but I will firmly stand that only Reanimator can do all 5 with astonishing speed, consistency and resiliency in the hands of a Skilled pilot.

The best decks that have ever existed are missing at least 2 of your criteria.

Methinks your criteria are wrong. =(

[Tacosnape]

Also, you guys do realize that a colorless-themed block is coming out next, right? I think the chances are pretty high there'll be a viable answer to Iona in this.

[DrJones]

And we are leaving a land-themed block that was supposed to have good lands in it.

[Jak]

And we are leaving a land-themed block that was supposed to have good lands in it.

Yeah and none see Legacy play. There isn't anything new either like a dual/man land. Fuck Zendikar, amirite?

[ddt15]

The best, most powerful deck is no doubt ANT. It also one of the most boring decks to play against. You play magic wondering each turn "am I dead yet?, am I dead yet?". Oh you didn't draw any of your sideboard cards, too bad you stand no chance then. Probably one of the biggest fun killers in Legacy. You just sit there while he goldfishes to storm 9 + Tendrils. Reanimator is a relief to play against in comparison to ANT.

[cwt1220]

ANT is the most powerful deck in the format, if everyone you play against has no responses whatsoever.:tongue:

-Chris-

[Forbiddian]

The graveyard hate that people are currently playing is designed to beat Ichorid, not Reanimator. People think now that Reanimator is immune or very resistant to hate, but I predict in the next few weeks there will just be a shift in which yard hate people are buying.

Which is better hate: Yixlid Jailer or Ground Seal? In the days of Ichorid, it's not even a question/it's a joke, but if you only see Reanimator, you're better off with Ground Seal.

Hell: Which is a better yard hate: {card}Phyrexian Furnace{/card} or Relic of Progenitus? HAH! Bet you didn't even know that card existed.


Like people have pointed out, Reanimator is resistant to the types of yard hate people are currently running. I wouldn't say that means that it's resistant to yard hate in general.

Crypt is not the best yard answer because of these many situations:

If you play it out early, they wait to draw bounce, Show and Tell, or Exhume/Entomb combo.
If you wait for them to bin a guy, it might be too late because Entomb Reanimate only costs BB, even very early it's easy to threaten that.
Even if you trap a binned guy, they can Exhume, then after your Crypt Entomb and they only lose one combo element.

On the other side, Withered Wretch and Coffin Purge are a poor answer to Ichorid because they're so slow and only can take one or two problematic cards while Ichorid can bin 10-20 more in a single turn. Even with the slothiest hand, they could combo through that. Reanimator spends its first few turns running setup, and then removing a single targetted card is the same as removing the entire graveyard.

I guess I've only talked about black yard hate, but Extirpate seems also very good against Reanimator. You can counter Mystical Tutor with it, or Extirpate Iona and it can't be countered.


On the whole, Reanimator will be more consistent due to countermagic, but to say that yard hate isn't a problem for it is ludicrous. The right yard hate could shut down every card except 1 (and the tutors for that 1), and possibly even force them to send out a subpar creature.


Just remember when Ichorid came out: It didn't have any bad matchups. It was immune to countermagic because it didn't play any spells. It basically dominated everything. But then within a month, it was just another deck, because people started devoting 4+ sideboard slots to handling it.

It's just a matter of time before people: 1) start spreading their answers among two colors. 2) start running yard hate that ducks countermagic and focuses more on removing a single card multiple times. Even after that point, Reanimator will probably still be tier 1/tier 2, but it's certainly not some untouchable pinnacle.

Hell, I mean, this format has faced turn 2 12/12 tramplers with tons of counterbackup and turn 3 10/10 pro everythings, immune to yard hate. It's not too big of a deal some 7/7 flyer.

[Aggro_zombies]

Also, you guys do realize that a colorless-themed block is coming out next, right? I think the chances are pretty high there'll be a viable answer to Iona in this.
But will there also be a viable answer to Inkwell Leviathan, Empyrial Archangel, and Robot Akroma?

I don't know what the fixation with Iona is. Sure, you can answer Iona until you're blue in the face, but it's important to realize that the deck runs other creatures for just this reason. Sometimes it's not correct to just go for the Iona, and most of the hate for her does jack shit to Leviathan or Robot Akroma.

[paK0]

Just remember when Ichorid came out: It didn't have any bad matchups. It was immune to countermagic because it didn't play any spells. It basically dominated everything. But then within a month, it was just another deck, because people started devoting 4+ sideboard slots to handling it.




Yeah, but sb space is at a premium anyways.


I'm not saying that it should be possible to be prepared for everything, but if I have to pray before every round that I get an MU that is actually beatable I might as well go play rock-paper-scissors.


I wonder how much decks that need specific hate Legacy can actually bear.

[Peter_Rotten]

But this is already typical of Legacy. Every deck has a deck that will steamroll it. Most SBs would include Yard hate, Counter Balance hate, Enchantment hate (if not covered in CB hate), Artifact hate (of course you can usually double up on Enchantment and Artifact hate), and Combo hate. Depending on the deck, a SB you pack some extra Critter hate.

I bet a return to BW homebrew would be a good foil for Reanimator. With a ton of access to the best yard hate, OK beaters, and the best critter removal including Sac-effects for Shroud critters. Plus, Iona would have to guess if she would be Plowed or Edicted.

[SpikeyMikey]

It is strong. So is ANT. It might change the format but it's not an unstoppable juggernaut. With ANT, Zoo was well placed because of how they naturally ruined Ad Nauseam. Blue obviusly has a shot because countermagic is a potent answer to almost everything. With Reanimator, the aggro deck of choice may become BGW Junk because of it's ability to split it's removal suite between StP and Edict as well as it's ability to disrupt mana bases (and this is a weak point, since they curve out at 3 they tend to not run enough lands). This is how I beat them with my new UB Control; Spell Pierce packaged with Wasteland and Crucible. I let them put whatever they want in the yard but I counter reanimation spells and eventually run into one of the two MD Bojuka Bogs. I do have Reanimator board, but it's just more Thoughtseize and Spell Pierce and a pair of 3spheres. Nothing gamebreaking or off the wall, the same comes in against ANT.

[DrJones]

Yeah and none see Legacy play. There isn't anything new either like a dual/man land. Fuck Zendikar, amirite?Zendikar "enters-the-battlefield-tapped" block has failed miserably at designing interesting or playable lands (Eye of Ugin, heh), and while the new fetches are good, they just added redundancy to the existing set of fetchlands. For succesful land design, take a look at the lands from Time Spiral block: Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, Dryad Arbor, Vesuva, Academy Ruins, Urza's Factory, Dakmor Salvage, Tolaria West, Flagstones of Trokair, Gemstone Caverns, Horizon Canopy, Terramorphic Expanse... even the reprints are interesting: Desert, Gemstone mine, Pendelhaven. It puts Zendikar block in shame, and would do the same with the lands of Urza's Block if they weren't so stupidly powerful.

The only land from Zendikar block that is barely interesting is Bojuka Bog. Which I mention here for two reasons. The first being that it can be used in green decks with Crop rotation against the dreaded Reanimator, and the second one because otherwise this post wouldn't belong to this thread. We have to stay on-topic. :tongue:

[Pulp_Fiction]

Reanimator is alright. Best deck in the environment? No, thats the ANT Hybrids, NLS, and newer TES builds. Reanimator has quite a few weaknesses, and Fleshbag Marauder owns every creatures they have and turns off Exhume. Sac effects, and StP (on some) of their creatures deals with them. The deck is not this unstobbable juggernaut, its ok, but similar to dredge, a lot of people might not know how to play against Reanimator or are just playing inferior decks and expecting to win with 2-4 hate cards. Reanimator is similar to combo in that it can do broken stuff before you even get a turn but ... whatever, nature of playing a format like this, its no more broken (or mindless) than turn 1 Top turn 2 CB.

[FoolofaTook]

I bet a return to BW homebrew would be a good foil for Reanimator. With a ton of access to the best yard hate, OK beaters, and the best critter removal including Sac-effects for Shroud critters. Plus, Iona would have to guess if she would be Plowed or Edicted.

I've been thinking that if Iona and UB Reanimator becomes a meta defining deck that maybe it would bring Ubw Fish back from the dead. Tarmogoyf has really trashed that particular concept.

[Forbiddian]

I like the thread's new name.

[troopatroop]

I bet a return to BW homebrew would be a good foil for Reanimator. With a ton of access to the best yard hate, OK beaters, and the best critter removal including Sac-effects for Shroud critters. Plus, Iona would have to guess if she would be Plowed or Edicted.

I bet that deck would be 50% at BEST against Reanimator, and much worse against the format. Sundering Titan seems like a good target there.

People don't seem to realize that Reanimator can ALSO adapt with the hate. Chain of Vapor, Stifle, or Spell Pierce deal with almost everything being said.

[Zinch]

I bet that deck would be 50% at BEST against Reanimator, and much worse against the format. Sundering Titan seems like a good target there.

People don't seem to realize that Reanimator can ALSO adapt with the hate. Chain of Vapor, Stifle, or Spell Pierce deal with almost everything being said.

A deck with up to 4 duresses, 4 thoughtseizes and 4 hymns along up to 4 swords, 4 Paths and/or 8 edicts effects, and with Jotun grunt in the MD to return the discarded creatures if they stay there for more than one turn will have 50% at best against reanimator?? (that's without mentioning sideboard).

I think you are overrating reanimator a little bit (I don't say the deck would be good against the rest of the field, but it will beat reanimator)

[Forbiddian]

People don't seem to realize that Reanimator can ALSO adapt with the hate. Chain of Vapor, Stifle, or Spell Pierce deal with almost everything being said.

I'm sure a combination of three spells that contribute absolutely nothing to the combo, have almost no overlap in terms of hate that they answer, currently are being only sparingly played (or not at all being played), and contribute to making the combo more expensive to fire I'm sure will be an easy adjustment for Reanimator and will ensure that all the diverse hate that will be filling up sideboards in the coming months will have no impact.

People understand that Reanimator will adjust to the hate. So did Ichorid. But Ichorid was never as dominant as it was in the first few months when people in half the games reached across the table to read what Bridge from Below did.

[MattH]

People don't seem to realize that Reanimator can ALSO adapt with the hate. Chain of Vapor, Stifle, or Spell Pierce deal with almost everything being said.

Every time reanimator adds a Stifle, it has to take something out - mana, card manipulation, or combo pieces. God save us from having decks play the meta-game (in the original sense of the term)!

Arms races are the name of the game in Magic, and Legacy is no exception. If you don't like it when strategies adapt to each other, there's always Shandalar.

[OurSerratedDust]

What are Reanimator's worst matchups? Countertop lists like supreme blue? Thanks.

[hi-val]

I'm sure a combination of three spells that contribute absolutely nothing to the combo, have almost no overlap in terms of hate that they answer, currently are being only sparingly played (or not at all being played), and contribute to making the combo more expensive to fire I'm sure will be an easy adjustment for Reanimator and will ensure that all the diverse hate that will be filling up sideboards in the coming months will have no impact.

People understand that Reanimator will adjust to the hate. So did Ichorid. But Ichorid was never as dominant as it was in the first few months when people in half the games reached across the table to read what Bridge from Below did.

It's easy, though, to slot out some of those Dazes for Spell Pierce on the draw. Same can be done with sideboarded Duresses. It isn't exactly giving up one slot of one kind for another disparate slot, it can also exchange disruption for disruption. I can think of several matchups where I'd probably side out some number of Force of Will for Spell Pierce, for example.

[XiaN]

Arms races are the name of the game in Magic, and Legacy is no exception. If you don't like it when strategies adapt to each other, there's always Shandalar.

Well said sir :)


What are Reanimator's worst matchups? Countertop lists like supreme blue? Thanks.

Basicly everything with Chalice/Counterbalance main, with the Stifle/Wasteland/Force/Daze pack or a good clock combined with countermagic. To name a few : Tempo Thresh, Meerfolk and CB x ... maybe even Dreadstill.

But i would not agree with Death Guy Ale as bad mu. Of cause, the sac spotremoval slows you down, but once you have your dudes in the grave, you get a reanimator spell every 2 turns per average ( due to card draw, brainstorm, 8 reanimator spells and 4 mystical tutors ). I can't see how a DGAle without carddraw can keep up with this in a non-magical wonderland environment.

[Mayk0l]

I'm not saying that it should be possible to be prepared for everything, but if I have to pray before every round that I get an MU that is actually beatable I might as well go play rock-paper-scissors.


I agree with this. I've noticed that at tournaments, regardless of playskills, it mostly comes down to the matchups. It's all become a bit dull and feels like a big Rock, Paper, Scissors

I should be playing ANT, that's the only solid deck in the format. Reanimator? Mweh, not so scary.

[Aggro_zombies]

I agree with this. I've noticed that at tournaments, regardless of playskills, it mostly comes down to the matchups. It's all become a bit dull and feels like a big Rock, Paper, Scissors

I should be playing ANT, that's the only solid deck in the format. Reanimator? Mweh, not so scary.
You have a bad matchup against Counterbalance.

Just sayin'.

[Mayk0l]

You have a bad matchup against Counterbalance.

Just sayin'.

With the amount of Merfolk played, Cb Top is all but dead here
It might sound as a paradox, but Merfolk made ANT the best deck.

Reanimator, again, is not. It's really good and solid. But I've even seen decks race fatties, beating Iona's with Vials and Inkwell's with burn to the face after the Reanimate spell. Multicoloured decks can play removal in more colours (in Landstill I play white removal, Virtue's Ruin (Progenitus and Iona) and Jace 2.0, with the option of playing more untargetted black removal). The question is, are you willing to change your deck to fight Reanimator? I am.

[FoolofaTook]

Basicly everything with Chalice/Counterbalance main, with the Stifle/Wasteland/Force/Daze pack or a good clock combined with countermagic. To name a few : Tempo Thresh, Meerfolk and CB x ... maybe even Dreadstill.

I love Dreadstill but I don't know that I see it as a bad matchup for Reanimator at this point. Iona naming blue basically destroys the deck. Blazing Archon makes Dreadnought a non-factor. Thoughtseize and Duress are the thing most likely to stop the early Dreadnought that might win a game. Dreadstill's removal, limited to Engineered Explosives with Red Blasts and Firespout in the sideboard is non-applicable and Iona will name blue to make bounce invalid. I think it's going to be a nasty matchup for Dreadstill.

I think really aggressive disruption is going to be the answer. Tempo Threshold, Sui BW, Team America, anything that goes bump in the night very quickly and then tries to exploit with a fast beater probably has at least a puncher's chance of knocking Reanimator off of it's feet and down for the count. Sinkhole is probably an MVP against the deck because it can get rid of the basic swamp fast if the draw is not right there for them.

[XiaN]

Hm ... Dreadstill packs MainDeck Stifle, Wasteland, Counterbalance, Force, Daze and a very fast clock. I think this might be enough to sneak the game. But of cause you right saying that Iona Blue is Game Over and that most of the sb choices are blanks.

We'll so how this works out.

[Artowis]

I love freaking out over nothing as much as the next guy, but do realize this is essentially a revamp of the Extended Reanimator deck from 5 years ago. It gained Force and better reanimation targets sure, but the decks it had to beat were just miles worse than what's available to you in Legacy. Not saying the deck is bad or anything, but some of you make it sound like they unbanned Tinker and errated Iona into an artifact creature. Hate still hurts the deck, combo is still veryyyyy reasonable to race with and in general the deck isn't doing anything you shouldn't expect really strong strategies to be doing.

When I read certain posts I'm amazed some of you want to play Legacy, it sounds like Standard would be more your speed in terms of having time to execute your strategy.

[practical joke]

I've redisigned the deck right before entomb got unbanned and I started to look into legacy. Took out a few 2k7 lists and figured out a new one and up to date. (it had to rely on intuition -.-), not much later entomb got unbanned ( like a week or 2). Choises were never soo easy.

I like to play and have acces to different decks despite having had a lot of time ( sept. last year till now) to get a whole new collection of legacy staples.

Reanimate should be a DTB, because it's resilient and disruptive. What makes it different from being the best deck. It still need 3 turns to finish it.
ANT combo's when it has the mana, and then blow it all in your face. Despite reanimate being a 2-card combo, it dies to a lot.

Example zoo: if you play no mana enhancers the zoo match-up is far from easy, even when you dropped an iona, you have not won. They have 1-2 creatures drops, setting you on low life and the finish it off with some burn. Reanimate is in no form to make attack plans.
( see match T8 and T4 matches from muller vs zoo, also mind his topdeckskills)

Where can you disrupt a reanimate player. Good cards;

a good counterpackage: cursecatchers,dazes,Force of Will, spell pierce and maybe even dispell. We can overcome this with mysticals, but it takes a lot of time.
A good handdisruptive package: even though we can take down an opponent with a single reanimate creature, we can lose to this. Make your choises carefully and take out their option to put something in the grave. As long as nothin hits the grave, there's nothing to fear.
A decent gy-disruptive package: things that hurt the deck, extirpate (split second ftw), fearie macabre ( also not much to do about it), tormod's crypt with a beater ( can be a kird ape, goyf or anything) this sets a serious clock and will take some time for us to get our act together, relic ( mostly to slow since it gives us an additional turn), leyline ( this is good untill we bounce it or destroy it), planar void ( pretty good, since we can't even rely on our opponents graveyards if we have to).
Glacial chasm lock: This can work, but depends on the build. We can wait, target 3 beaters, counter that single loam that hunts the chasm, beat for way too much and win. ( maze of ith's can be avoided, if not we have to do the above mulitple turns.)

I played against lands a few times, and they have no chance. After Sideboarding the extirpates take out that single lock/loam-engine and inkwell clears the way. Tabernacle/wastelock doesn't work without lftl and the like.

Vials are also considered not a friend. ( stingscourchers and merfolk lords are no fun, might seem slow, but winning after casting a reanimate might get into danger with the build muller used) These are both mono-colored decks merfolk is a hard match-up and goblins decent to good. ( depends on the speed of the build)



Worst match-ups: ( taking mullers build as example)

Merfolk
Counterbalance
tempo treshhold ( especially the black version with confidants)

[Sims]

I'd like to throw out there, that while I agree with Practical Joke that the hardest matchups are ones like Merfolk, CBTop lists, Tempo Thresh, etc... I'd like to also add in BGW disruptive lists to that.

Over the past few weeks since I finished the Ub version, I've played it in our local events (usually around 16 people) and went 3-1 into the cut to t4, this week 3-1 into t4, beat Bant Survival in t4, only to lose to a Frank D'aloia (reverend damaged) special in the finals. Both weeks my loss was to a B/G/x rockish list, one playing DDepths/Hex and the other just being BGW Doran/Goyf/Jitte with vindicates, edicts, plows, etc.

The duress/thoughtseizes and hymns do a number on you when sinkholes and vindicates are blowing up lands, and in the bgw list the removal is spread between 2 colors to make iona less effective. You don't always have enough countermagic to stop it or make them discard it. G3 against the DDepths list was lost due to my thoughtseizing to clear the way for the beatstick i was about to careful study and reanimate, and a topdecked duress just ruined me as i drew lands the rest of the game. It's just a bitch to play against.

[(nameless one)]

Here is how I see it:

U/B Reanimator is not the best deck in the format, but it is one of the Tier 1 decks out there.

Remember back in the days when Onslaught Goblins entered the scene? Remember the unified hate against Goblin Lackeys? Lackeys never got banned and everything was alright.

Remember when Chicago showed us Counter-Top? Remember the unified hate against Counterbalance and Sensei's Divining Top? Both never got the banhammer and the format seemed just as fine.

Remember how some of you guys went on and on about how Entomb is safe to be reintroduced? Entomb is a good card but it needs its parts to work. Its not like its Flashing for the win (although it could be close).

The thing is, like what the title said, everyone is paranoid about Reanimator because it renders a lot of decks useless. What? I spent more than $300 so that my Goblin deck can turn into a casual deck? Well, Engineered Explosives did that to Meathooks already. Hey, at least you get to use your manabase on something else.

The sad thing about about all this though is that the format will never be the same. I remember when I started playing the format, I can actually consistently win with my Elves. Now, I have to cry blood just to get a win over ANT, even CounterTop decks.

As the format develops into the WotC consumer mainstream, the format will be more expensive as we will be forced to play with Tier one deck. No more thinkering around with Astral Slide deck or Kithkin deck as decks like those get rendered useless by new cards, along with their interactions with older cards.

As time goes by, I actually see this format turning into what Type 1 turned. Starting with the sky-high prices, a lot of archetypes being a joke. And eventually turning the format into something that has only around a dozen viable decks.

But hey, that the evolution of a format for you.

[Nessaja]

Remember when Chicago showed us Counter-Top? Remember the unified hate against Counterbalance and Sensei's Divining Top? Both never got the banhammer and the format seemed just as fine.
This never happened.

[Tychoides]

I agree with the majority of people here who are stating it's a "Tier 1" deck, but not the best. I know it's easy to see the result of a 2200+ tournament and that it won and assume it must be the best, but keep in mind, if it weren't for a bad flop off of Ad Nauseam, ANT would have won the tournament. Would we have this discussion about Reanimator being the best if ANT had won?

[Skeggi]

Would we have this discussion about Reanimator being the best if ANT had won?
No, we would have the same discussion about ANT, which is a more just question I think. ANT is probably the best deck.

[Shabbaman]

As time goes by, I actually see this format turning into what Type 1 turned. Starting with the sky-high prices, a lot of archetypes being a joke. And eventually turning the format into something that has only around a dozen viable decks.

Twelve decks is a lot in a metagame. It sounds like a nice metagame :)

[(nameless one)]

This never happened.

Im not saying everyone hated it. There was a lot of people crying that it should be banned. Only if the search engine here worked properly.


Twelve decks is a lot in a metagame. It sounds like a nice metagame :)

Kinda like Type 1?

[Gheizen64]

It's funny what history do. One different flip, and this thread wouldn't even exist. Though probably we would have a 30 pages long thread on AnT. Meh

[whienot]

It's funny what history do. One different flip, and this thread wouldn't even exist. Though probably we would have a 30 pages long thread on AnT. Meh

Exactly. Reanimator didn't win, ANT lost to itself. Either way, I'm glad the deck is getting more attention.

[Avier]

To be fair in testing Reanimator has been very good.

We played a few matches with U/W Tempo list and it was never even close.
A 3 color Counterbalance deck that won one game when reanimator got an Archangel while Bitterblossom held it off and counters kept it off a second target.

People keep saying Merfolk is a bad match up for Reanimator, when I played against Ryan McKinney at the 5k he blew me out. Afterwards he said Merfolk and Zoo were good match ups, I'm inclined to agree with him.

The survival deck didn't have a chance.

[DrJones]

Fortunately we have Force of Will in this format, always ready to prevent decks like these to thrive and becoming dominant.

[Sims]

To be fair in testing Reanimator has been very good.

We played a few matches with U/W Tempo list and it was never even close.
A 3 color Counterbalance deck that won one game when reanimator got an Archangel while Bitterblossom held it off and counters kept it off a second target.

People keep saying Merfolk is a bad match up for Reanimator, when I played against Ryan McKinney at the 5k he blew me out. Afterwards he said Merfolk and Zoo were good match ups, I'm inclined to agree with him.

The survival deck didn't have a chance.

I wouldn't mind seeing his notes for any tests he ran against Zoo. I haven't had the chance to play merfolk yet but every time I play zoo it ends up being a veery tight match that's difficult to win. They can race Inkwell, out damage archangel, path/swords sphinx, and play around Iona (white- burn her, red? path her).... it's not an unwinnable match but it's always a very difficult match to me.

[AngryTroll]

I think the important question about Reanimator is this:

Is Reanimator better than Dredge?

Both are very resistant to countermagic and creature removal. Both are weak to cards like Leyline and Extirpate. Why is there suddenly so much talk about banning Entomb?

[FoolofaTook]

Reanimator has a consistency to it that Dredge could only hope for. The two instant tutors (Mystical and Entomb) aren't as broken as Flash/Hulk but they're kind of reminiscent of the ability to find what you need on the fly and go off fairly quickly after that.

[Avier]

I guess what gets me is that in testing the deck just has so much consistency. Its pretty easy to get past a FoW or a Spell Snare, or a Daze.

In game one at the 5k he goes to EOT (my turn) crack his fetch, I stifle it, he cracks his other one, I stifle it. He shrugs it off with 2 FoW and on his turn exhumes Iona. Game two I stop his first one, he then does the math for Iona vs my board, gets Blazing Archon, then on his following turn gets Iona.

I'm not saying it needs to be banned right away, we can find hate, but its obviously very good. I honestly cannot find a way for a non-blue deck to compete though. Game one is like dredge where you get walloped. Game two you board in Graveyard hate, then proceed to lose to Show and Tell. The only out that I have seen is that the Reanimator player casted Show and Tell against survival, who then went and got Progenitus.

How do non-blue mono-colored lists beat Reanimator? I just cannot seem them doing it. Then we run into the situation where everyone has to be playing two color decks and needs the duals. -->Keep in mind I'm not against that, but it does affect the metagame and we have to ask ourselves if we are okay without mono-colored lists.

[dahcmai]

As one of the original pilots of the Bazaar Reanimator deck, this thread makes me smile. : )

[Dark Ritual]

The deck is a lot more busted than dredge....the resiliency, the non reliance on the GY via show and tell and they can spell pierce your turn 1 relic/crypt, wipe away relic before you pop it so you can cast reanimate on Iona/inkwell....the deck is pretty silly. It curb stomps dredge G1 too all they have to do is get a blazing archon in play and just like that they won the game. And if they get Iona and archon out I've found it near impossible to win. And the fact that the deck packs FoW and daze doesn't help either. I think entomb may get banned IF reanimator has a heavy presence at GP Columbus and dominates like flash hulk did a few years ago.

[troopatroop]

I wouldn't mind seeing his notes for any tests he ran against Zoo. I haven't had the chance to play merfolk yet but every tiem I play zoo it ends up being a veery tight match that's difficult to win. They can race Inkwell, out damage archangel, path/swords sphinx, and play around Iona (white- burn her, red? path her).... it's not an unwinnable match but it's always very difficult match to me.

I'll admit that the Zoo matchup is dicey, but learning to mulligan is the real test here. A quick Iona on White, or Red. Sphinx if you have FOW. I've seen that matchup from both Decks perspectives, and I'd much rather be playing Reanimator. Faster Sligh-esque lists do better though.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

Personally, I hope that if anything gets banned, it's Show and Tell. It's basically the one thing that makes Reanimator so impervious to graveyard hate, and it enables way fewer interesting decks than Entomb does, imho.

But I suppose all the Dream Halls players would be uber-pissed if that happened...

[XiaN]

Show and Tell is nowhere near getting banned. If something gets the axe, which i doubt, it will be Mystical Tutor. But we'll see. Most likely the meta will shift more towards CB and/or Chalice decks. Control profits the most from the current hype around Reanimator.

[Forbiddian]

Show and Tell isn't a great backup plan, and certainly not the one people are making it out to be, "Lol, they don't if you Chal 1 or Tormod's Crypt, because they'll just play their singleton Show and Tell, yeah!"

Show and Tell Dream Halls/Progenitus is a decent deck, but Dream Halls and Progenitus are both massively stronger cards than Iona or something against the field.

Maybe it's not quite as vulnerable to yard hate as, say, Ichorid, and it's vulnerable on the whole to different types of yard hate, but it's still very vulnerable.

[Gheizen64]

Show and Tell is nowhere near getting banned. If something gets the axe, which i doubt, it will be Mystical Tutor. But we'll see. Most likely the meta will shift more towards CB and/or Chalice decks. Control profits the most from the current hype around Reanimator.

Meh, i don't think anything is getting banned right now. IF i had to ban a card, i'd ban brainstorm. Power up too much blue in general and aggro-control, combo-control archetype. I believe also that it power up more combo-control than anything else. But i don't see anything being banned anyway.

Trinket mage + Aether spellbomb and Meekstone ftw.

[DrHealex]

Show and Tell isn't a great backup plan, and certainly not the one people are making it out to be, "Lol, they don't if you Chal 1 or Tormod's Crypt, because they'll just play their singleton Show and Tell, yeah!"

Technically, they generally sideboard in more show and tells game 2-3 to get thru the hate better.

I also don't see much in the banning department, either. The unbanning department, on the other hand, is a different story.

[Aggro_zombies]

Control profits the most from the current hype around Reanimator.
Not really, mostly because control gets the living shit kicked out of it by literally everything else in the format. Merfolk and Zoo both crush control, as do things like Enchantress and Progenitus Counterbalance.

EDIT: Tendrils can beat Reanimator and should have won Madrid. Like, if he'd flipped pretty much anything other than Tendrils, he would have won. Pity. On the other hand, if people respond to Reanimator by playing more blue decks, Tendrils will get hit with a lot of collateral damage.

[Nidd]

Not really, mostly because control gets the living shit kicked out of it by literally everything else in the format. Merfolk and Zoo both crush control, as do things like Enchantress and Progenitus Counterbalance.

EDIT: Tendrils can beat Reanimator and should have won Madrid. Like, if he'd flipped pretty much anything other than Tendrils, he would have won. Pity. On the other hand, if people respond to Reanimator by playing more blue decks, Tendrils will get hit with a lot of collateral damage.
1. Play 6 Chant effects MD
2. Play 3 Xantid Swarm SB
3. ?????
4. Profit!

On a more serious note, I think ANT has no problem fighting Blue as a whole. If CounterTop rises once more, it's a different story.

[BreathWeapon]

Reanimate is just resilient in the same sense as Control Slave from Vintage, if you focus on abusing the graveyard while having a solid back up plan (either Mystical Tutor for S&T or Burning Wish for S&T) you'll have a combo-control deck that's difficult to disrupt. That doesn't mean it's "unbeatable," it just means the format is approaching the "combo-finisher" esq metagame of Vintage past and you'll have to adapt by diversifying your removal vs Iona (boo fucking hoo) or die out.

You'll have to SB Aether Spellbomb for your Trinket Mages now or Maze of Ith for your Knight's of the Reliquary, big deal. That Green Trap that destroy flying creatures or anything that destroy White creatures aren't bad choices either.

[Cabal_chan]

Reanimate is just resilient in the same sense as Control Slave from Vintage, if you focus on abusing the graveyard while having a solid back up plan (either Mystical Tutor for S&T or Burning Wish for S&T) you'll have a combo-control deck that's difficult to disrupt. That doesn't mean it's "unbeatable," it just means the format is approaching the "combo-finisher" esq metagame of Vintage past and you'll have to adapt by diversifying your removal vs Iona (boo fucking hoo) or die out.

You'll have to SB Aether Spellbomb for your Trinket Mages now or Maze of Ith for your Knight's of the Reliquary, big deal. That Green Trap that destroy flying creatures or anything that destroy White creatures aren't bad choices either.

With WotC potentially pushing Legacy more, and some staples being hard to find and costly for new players, mono-color is a cheaper, somewhat competitive alternative. And what does Iona punish people for doing? Running mono-color.

It strikes me as rather insensitive to say 'adapt by diversifying your removal vs Iona (boo fucking hoo) or die out' when some people might not be able to do that.

[practical joke]

The 2 mostly played mono-color decks can face iona without much problems due to them having very good 1-drops ( merfolk has cursecatcher + vial, and goblins have lackey and vial) both cards can take down reanimate, especially if it's a vial.
If reanimate goes insane it can win, but it doesn't always win against a goblin deck that goes insane or a merfolk deck that can drop lord after lord while beating iona's 7 damage a turn with only vial drops.

goblins will likely adapt to it and play a few more stingscourchers to match their vials, a single lackey is a huge threat already.
Merfolk can adapt by playing sowers mainboard, or pack a few more tempo cards like stifle, spell pierce or anything. These adaptions are already made in the deck and reanimater decks weren't even needed to make them do so.

Do consider that 9 life is a lot to lose on T1 ( even more when they fetch), and playing against someone that has 10 or less life from start on is still very possible.

Be creative in your Sideboard when you have to deal with reanimate, a fearie macabre or leyline slows the deck for a quite a few turns in most cases.

The funny thing is, you only argue about iona. How would you feel if you play 43.lands and the first thing you see is an inkwell leviathan? it prevents you from playing after 3 turns as well, since lands hardly has an answer.

Goblins also start crying when they face a T1 akroma, since that card stops the deck completely. Sure they can play, but it will have no effect at all.

Calling a deck broken when it wins a single GP, while it doesn't dominate the format by far, is nonsense. Every deck can pack hate against this deck, might it be a chalice @ 1, eather spellbomb, fearie macabre, tormod's crypt and the like. It if doesn't win you the game, it at least slows the deck that much so that you can set-up a few good threats and take him down.
Iona, makes the deck more viable than it would have been otherwise, but she doesn't break the format by far.

[Zappa]

Since Vial was mentioned and just racing their creature was discussed. Could Vial Affinity actually fight through it? With Cranial Plating, a Big Master of Etherium, and a combo-esqe finish with ravager disciple... I'm curious. I've stopped playing Affinity ever since M10, but if Reanimator does get popular, I was wondering if it's a good choice to combat it.

[Mayk0l]

Maybe, but Affinity scoops to anything else, and will, probably, still have a hard time against Reanimator.

[practical joke]

It'll have a hard time against it, but it does stand a fair chance of getting there.
Iona, is useless, but sphinx of the steel wind and blazing archon are not.

[Gui]

Amount of sideboard options won't make a deck less broken. Every deck in this format is got badmatchs. If everyone has to side-in solutions against a deck (meaning it's never a goodmatch), that's proof enough that the deck is broken.

That said, I don't think this deck is broken. In my opinion it's just a very consistant deck with an optimal list. Aggro have to deal with combo since the beggining, and so Zoo and his fellow aggro will always have some problems with Reanimator. ANT is another combo, faster with less protection, and can win against Reanimator. Combo-control decks tends to have problematic matchups against more controllish decks, and thus, control shall appear to show it's strenght, via Counterbalance+TOP, Standstill, and so on...

[jazzykat]

Paranoia is right in my opinion. Oh noez it won 2 big tournaments. How many zoo decks were in Madrid? Is it a good deck, yes. In fact I've thought that reanimator might win the Madrid GP for months but I don't think anyone remembers me saying that.

IMO the metagame has to adapt because this deck is for real. However, I don't think an aggro control deck or a highly disruptive deck needs to do more than go back to crypt/relic instead of playing Ravenous Trap in the board and they are certainly back on even footing. I don't feel this is a deck that everyone and their brother should run out and make if they already have a highly competitive deck (this is not Flash).

What I find somewhat disconcerting is the doubling of the price on Entomb after the win, but I'll point to the price of dreamhalls dropping way below $10 on ebay after it hasn't placed in a while. While I never thought that Dream Halls was all that good of a deck I do believe Reanimator is a contender. However, $45 entombs on SCG...no thank you I'll wait for the theoretical reprints or the hype to die.

[Shabbaman]

Since Vial was mentioned and just racing their creature was discussed. Could Vial Affinity actually fight through it? With Cranial Plating, a Big Master of Etherium, and a combo-esqe finish with ravager disciple... I'm curious. I've stopped playing Affinity ever since M10, but if Reanimator does get popular, I was wondering if it's a good choice to combat it.

I think tutorable Hurkyl's recall is strong against Affinity.

[Barook]

Can't Reanimate be used against them? It's cheap for the low cost of :b: and black is the color of creature kill and discard. Why not steal your opponents' stuff? With the trend towards extremely cost-efficient creatures or cheating fatties into play, isn't it worth considering? Especially if you back it up with your own, cheap creatures like Goyf which you can get back as long as they didn't get StP/PtE'ed.

[Atwa]

Can't Reanimate be used against them? It's cheap for the low cost of :b: and black is the color of creature kill and discard. Why not steal your opponents' stuff? With the trend towards extremely cost-efficient creatures or cheating fatties into play, isn't it worth considering? Especially if you back it up with your own, cheap creatures like Goyf which you can get back as long as they didn't get StP/PtE'ed.

In my own home-brew WBG Goyf Control deck, I played 3 Reanimates maindeck. Most of the time to get back my goyfs (or the ones of my opponent when I killed them), but I've been pulling all sorts of stuff from my opponents grave. Keep in mind this was right after the printing of Future Sight, so we didn't even have Thoughtseize yet, but even then I almost always had a target for a top decked Reanimate.

Ask White_Ghost how he felt when he blew up his board for a Razormane (Crystal Veins) which met a Grip and Reanimate in an online tournament :)

Now, when we see more reanimator being played, and with decks like bant playing Iona, I see a lot more potential for this strategy, I've always wondered why people didn't play it outside of Reanimator.

People play lots of fun creatures (and get them killed), in the few months I played the deck, I've pulled out graves (not limited to): both Akromas, Razormane Masticore, Goblin Welders, Goyf, Mystic Enforcer, Mother of Runes, Exalted Angel, Terravore, Goblin Shapshooter, Mongose, Dark Confidant, Birds of Paradise, Eternal Dragon and lots of other stuff. Hell, I even once reanimated a Kobolts of Kerr Keep when I needed a chumpblock for the win (which is an awesome play when people are watching you btw, earns you lots of style points). I simply used the 3 reanimates in my deck as creature 11-13, but with the added benefit it's a flexible spot, so you can adjust it to the gamestate.

When building a deck with packs black, I would always try to fit in some Reanimates, it's that good (if you like to take advise from a guy who swears on versility over consistency in deck design. However, to quote my favored all time writer: "Consistency is the defense of a small mind" - David Eddings)

[AngryTroll]

Can't Reanimate be used against them?

Biggest downside is that Entomb is an instant. If your opponent suspects it, you'll never get their dude; even if they don't suspect it, you probably won't get a shot at their Iona.

Reanimate does grab Goyfs for one mana and two life, so that's probably fine if you have countermagic or non-StP removal.

[Jon Stewart]

Yeah, I think every Sui Black or Eva Green variant should play a couple of Reanimate alongside Thoughtseize and other Removal. They're awesome.