Archetype Classification Take 2 - The Revenge of Progenitus

[godryk]

Hello fellow sourcers! It's godryk here, begging for assistance once again.

Last time (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?16081-About-the-Zoo-archetype&p=416796) our heroic writer tried to understand what the Zoo archetype includes. The wide specter of RGW decks we saw back then needed some classification and you really helped me to form an opinion. I find myself in a dead point again, this time regarding to UGW Progenitus decks, so, let's go to de point.

Remember the day we started seeing Natural Order+ Progenitus? One of the first appearances of the Hydra Avatar that I remeber were those UGW Countertop Progenitus deck played before GP Chicago. For reference, check out this list:

Progenitus Threshold by Alix Hatfield (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=23884)
1st at Dual for Duals, Vestal, Feb-09

After GP Chicago more controllish CB lists spread, and the Natural Order plus Progenitus combo was left apart for a while. Soon after, creatures of the Bant colors started being considered by Legacy players. At first, some of them used Noble Hierarch to power out third turn Natural Order and enjoyed Rhox War Monk combat features. Those lists soon proved powerful and had been played for months without relevant changes.

Countertop Progenitus by Calosso Fuentes (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=31522)
2nd at Richmond SCG Open Series, Mar-10

Ok, let's start with the question thing:
Is that Countertop?

I assume not every deck running CB+Top is to be considered Countertop "That Control Deck". For reference we had The Fear as a succesful archetype running CB+Top, though not included in the Countertop discussion and classification and deserving its own thread in all Legacy boards. I think Counterop has been a wide category for control decks running Tarmogoyf (not always), Counterbalance, Sense's Divining Top, Brainstorm, Ponder, some number of removal cards, board control cards (EE, Vedalken Shackles, Elspeth) and some more creatures, usually utility creatures (Trinket Mage, Sower of Temptation). Sometimes there is a very specific variant of an existant archetype which becomes so popular, that deserves to get tracked separately.

Do you think that Progenitus Countertop decks should have their own thread and deck status (DTB, DTW, etc.) here?
Do you think that Progenitus Countertop decks should be counted as another Countertop variant (just like Nassif or Supreme Blue)?

There were also some people playing ports of other format's Bant Aggro decks, which eventually ended up including Natural Order due to the huge amount of green creatures available. Those decks have also got certain success in Europe, to the extent that it got a top 8 slot at GP Madrid.

Bant Progenitus, by Lluis Restoy (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=32841)
6th at GP Madrid, Feb-10

Though this kind of list may seem odd for american audiences, it's not that rare in the old continent and has to be considered for metagame observation. Do we lump it into the same category that Countertop Progenitus lists?

I suposse we don't, I'm just sick of hearing people saying things like "there will be lots of Bant decks at GP Madrid"? I mean, when people says that, not everyone has the same thing in mind. Most of them refer to Natural Order decks, and other refer to anything running Noble Hierarch (is that an archetype?). And, once again, I have to criticize deckcheck. Have you checked the 'Bant Aggro' (http://www.deckcheck.net/list.php?type=Bant+Aggro&format=Legacy) category? It is what in spanish we call "una casa de putas": a big mess.

There you can see listed both Lluis Restoy (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=32841) and Ruben Gonzalez's (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=32840) decks.

When making the next DTB update, would you consider González's deck (or Calosso's) a Countertop deck?
Would you consider Gonzalez's deck the same as Restoy's (Bant Progeniuts)?

And this (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=32785)?

I think that the 'Bant' tag has been overused on the internet, leading to a certain chaos about it on sites like deckcheck. As always, this may be a dumb discussion, but I'd appreciate to hear some of your thoughts on the topic.

[Shimi]

I played SupremeBlue , CTop UGW list(without Pro), CounterTop Progenitus like Calosso and now I'm playing ProBant( more like Lluis Restoy) and I can say that there is a HUGE diference between these lists, SBing is very diferent and the game plan change change from aggro to control hole, and deckcheck or wizards classification is just a big mess, you look for CTop lists and they don't have CB in it.If you are playing CTop + Pro you have some out to CB lock so the game goal could be bait your opponent with CB and then smash them with NO, ProBant could just put pressure or can build an hand where NO + counter backup is end.The way you fetch your lands is totally diferent since sometimes you need GG instead of UU or you ponder or brainstorm to put pressure instead of find CB lock ou assembling it, or you just use your fetch to suffle and not correct you mana base because noble can do it, some times you open forest with more aggro hand or plan or you can open with island.

So, the deck plays so diferent that my opinion is that should have 3 Archetypes: BantAggro and ProBant , CB without NO (Nassif list, SupremeBlue, UGB and UGW) and CTop Progenitus.

[BreathWeapon]

NO PRO and Balance/Top decks do deserve their own thread, the traditional control elements of Balance/Top decks have shifted towards the combo-control elements of a Vintage(sq) control deck and the archetype itself is unique to the others.

Also the metagame has shifted past Tarmogoyf and has moved to Tarmogoyf + mechanic to win Tarmogoyf stalemates, a deck that can't fore thru' Tarmogoyf is now essentially quagmire vs a Tarmogoyf deck that can, hence why Exalted, Trinket Mage and Basilisk Collar, Stoneforge Mystic and Umezawa's Jitte or Mother of Runes are pretty much necessary in any aggro-control deck.

[godryk]

See metagame breakdown for SCG Open at Richmond:
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/18925_Too_Much_Information_StarCityGamescom_Legacy_Open_Richmond.html

What's Natural Order Progenitus? (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=32784)

Yeah, we know they refer to Countertop Progenitus (and maybe Countertopless Countertop Progenitus or straight good ole' Countertopless Progenitus). More seriously, I also think that running Countertop or not makes a huge difference, makes different decks, it's just everyone else not seeing it...