[SCD] Noetic Scales

[Jon Stewart]

Noetic Scales

I'm impressed with this card. Do you guys think it can meet Legacy's powerlevel? Do you guys think it is a better inclusion in MBC, Quinn or Pox Decks to Ensnaring Bridge, Damnation/Wrath of God and Nevinyrral's Disk?

It certainly outclasses all other alternative in a pox deck...

I think the below list could do extremely well in the current metagame...

//Mana
18 Swamp
2 Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Mishra’s Factory
4 Dark Ritual

//1cc Disruption
4 Thoughtseize
2 Innocent Blood

//2cc Disruption
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Smallpox

//3cc Disruption
4 Pox
4 Oppression

//Lock/Win Conditions
4 Noetic Scales
4 Phyrexian Totem
2 The Rack/Chimeric Idol/Phyrexian Arena

//Sample Sideboard
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Powder Keg (Or just about anything else really).
2 Innocent Blood
1 Wretched Banquet

•How has the metagame changed or what new cards exist now to make this card playable?

Reanimator is now a Deck to Beat.

Progenitus is found in multiple Decks to Beat.

Dreadnought is played in a Deck to Beat.

And Tarmogoyf is played frequently in almost all Decks to Beat.

This first two seem like a perfect storm to get artifact based removal to be more popular.

•What deck or archetype can this card be used in and why?

It can be used in virtually every control deck in the format. But it's particularly strong in Monoblack Control and in Creatureless Pox, because both decks have a number of ways to cause your opponent to discard their hand.

In particular, the card is very effective with Oppression and Mind Twist should the latter get unbanned.

Pox decks that opt to utilize Mishra's Factory, Chimeric Idol, Phyrexian Totem, Gatekeeper of Malakir and such would greatly benefit from this card, where as Ensnaring Bridge is a card that couldn't played, even with such a threatbase because it addresses the attack phase, not the upkeep.

Gatekeeper of Malakir (and Shriekmaw/Mulldrifter to a lesser extent) are actually particularly strong with this card, acting as recurring removal/draw.

•How does this card fulfill the role of another card in an existing archetype more effectively than the card it would replace?

I actually want to hear your feedback in this area. How do you guys think this compares to Ensnaring Bridge, Damnation, Disk and other alternatives?

•Ideally, include a sample deck list (even if it's rough) that incorporates the card..

I already posted a Pox list above that I think could do fantastic in the current meta.

Here's a less illustrative MBC list that I really have little idea about how it would fare.

I'm just throwing in every card that would work in the deck, and including it as a one of.

//Mana
19 Swamp
4 Cabal Coffers
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Mishra's Factory

//Draw & Discard
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Oppression
1 Dark Ritual
1 Duress
1 Smallpox
1 Pox
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Persecute

//Removal and Threats
4 Innocent Blood
1 Chimeric Idol
1 Phyrexian Totem
1 Gatekeeper of Malakir
1 Shriekmaw
1 Chainers Edict

//Sweepers
3 Noetic Scales
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Nevinyrral's Disk
1 Damnation

//Finishers
2 Liliana Vess
1 Sorin Markov
1 Staff of Domination
1 Consume Spirit

The one ofs are all just cards that would work well in the deck. I have no idea in what proportion each of these cards should be run at. I leave that up to you guys.

So do you guys think this card has a role. Or can you make a logical argument that the alternatives are strictly superior?

[Forbiddian]

//Draw & Discard
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
...
1 Smallpox
1 Pox
1 Persecute

//Removal
4 Innocent Blood
3 Gatekeeper of Malakir
1 Shriekmaw
1 Chainers Edict

//Sweepers
...
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Nevinyrral's Disk
1 Damnation

With all of that, how scared are you of reanimator or Progenitus? You have 10 sac effects, disk, bridge, and damnation.

Adding crappy removal in Noetic Scales just doesn't make sense, you need to add something that ensures you don't scoop to other combo. If you're so scared of Iona, just run a bit of yard hate, but at some point you should focus on decks other than NOBant and Reanimator (the only two reasonable targets for Noetic Scales).

It's not like Noetic Scales is going to stop Zoo or Merfolk, the other two very popular decks right now, so what's the point?

[Jon Stewart]

Oppression + Pox + Smallpox + Noetic Scales + Hymn + Dark Ritual seems like perfect storm of synergitic cards that are all individually strong but work together to completely screw over 90% of the decks in the metagame.

Going back to MBC,

Oppression is extremely effective against combo, and Hymn helps too. Especially if those cards are fueled out with a Dark Ritual.

Post board, you can bring in Chalice of the Void, Trinisphere, Leyline of the Void and cards of that nature. I think post board, 4 Hymn, 4 Oppression, 4 Chalice, 3 Trinisphere and 4 Leyline is enough to shut down combo of all sorts.

The main point is to ensure the deck consistently beats aggro and aggro control decks of all sorts in the maindeck without even needing any help from the sideboard, and you will have to make do with Hymn and Oppression game one against the occasional combo matchup, then consistently hate them out with your sideboard in games two and three.

I have no idea how the control vs. control mirror might play out, but considering that control is exceedingly rare in legacy these days, and that all this decks removal hurts control's threats and win conditions as well, that shouldn't be too big a problem.

[FoolofaTook]

With all of that, how scared are you of reanimator or Progenitus? You have 10 sac effects, disk, bridge, and damnation.

Adding crappy removal in Noetic Scales just doesn't make sense, you need to add something that ensures you don't scoop to other combo. If you're so scared of Iona, just run a bit of yard hate, but at some point you should focus on decks other than NOBant and Reanimator (the only two reasonable targets for Noetic Scales).

It's not like Noetic Scales is going to stop Zoo or Merfolk, the other two very popular decks right now, so what's the point?

He should definitely be afraid of Iona if he's running mono-black.

[Forbiddian]

He should definitely be afraid of Iona if he's running mono-black.

AHAHA! Do you ever think about your arguments? Man, by that logic, Death and Taxes should mainboard 4 Silence, 4 Chant, 4 Ethersworn Canonist, and 4 Thorn of Amethyst. Noetic Scales only affects 1 deck in the entire metagame, and this guy is maindecking 3.

[Jon Stewart]

Noetic Scales affects EVERY aggro and aggro control deck in the entire metagame.

Even without any discard, it effects every Tarmogoyf, Progenitus, Dreadnought and Reanimator target.

Between Oppression and Hymn (or Hymn + Smallpox + Pox in Pox lists), even weenie decks like Goblins and Zoo will have near empty hands.

And stop addressing the posted list rather than the card. That list was posted because the recommended criteria for posting an SCD is to post a decklist, even if it's rough. I'm not claiming that's an optimal or tested list.

The list is meant to illustrate the kind of cards that could supplement Noetic Scales. Nothing more. In retrospect, I probably should have posted a Pox list as well, because Noetic Scales seems like it could be even better there.

[SilverGreen]

I still prefer this card (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?14872-[SCD]-Moss-Monster&highlight=moss+monster) as "SCD da tech".

[FoolofaTook]

AHAHA! Do you ever think about your arguments? Man, by that logic, Death and Taxes should mainboard 4 Silence, 4 Chant, 4 Ethersworn Canonist, and 4 Thorn of Amethyst. Noetic Scales only affects 1 deck in the entire metagame, and this guy is maindecking 3.

I was just pointing out that if he's running mono-black he's probably a bye for any deck that can easily find and put Iona in play. Death and Taxes, BTW, has main deck answers to Iona in Karakas so it is a terrible deck to use as a pair for mono-black in this argument.

[Jon Stewart]

I still prefer this card (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?14872-[SCD]-Moss-Monster&highlight=moss+monster) as "SCD da tech".

Thanks for reminding me. Noetic Scales also works well in Stax :p

Seriously though, I provided a decklist (the Pox decklist here).

(Mana)
18 Swamp
2 Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Mishra’s Factory
4 Dark Ritual

(1cc)
4 Duress?
2 Innocent Blood

(2cc Disruption)
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Smallpox

(3cc Disruption)
4 Pox
4 Oppression

(Lock/Win Conditions)
4 Noetic Scales
4 Phyrexian Totem
2 The Rack/Chimeric Idol


Can you make a logical argument that such a deck wouldn't be competitive in the current legacy metagame? It's packed to the brim with removal, disruption, great options against combo both maindeck and sideboard, and I honestly can't think of too many poor matchups for that deck except perhaps 43 lands.

That deck may need some tweaking (more lands, more threats or perhaps thoughtseize instead of duress), but overall, I think there is a solid strategy there. And it revolves around Noetic Scales to lock out the opponent's threats while keeping them at 0 cards thanks to Oppression, or stuck at 1-2 lands and cards thanks to Pox/Smallpox.

[FoulQ]

I don't know if it is maindeck material for a pox like deck, but definitely a decent sideboard card for two (and possibly more) matchups. Unfortunately it seems that ignoring combo really isn't possible in today's metagame, so you would have to devote a lot of sideboard space to that, then you have noetic scales, and then probably something to deal with another strategy popular in your metagame (underdeveloped ones might have burn, maybe landstill still is clawing for life in your meta, etc.). This would leave you with little room for grave hate. But you would be able to stop reanimator with extirpate, and you could use extirpate as a decent card against ichorid, loam, etc. So maybe that would be a more applicable card for a pox sideboard than noetic scales, it's hard to say without a really solid understanding of one's personal metagame.

I don't think the question is, "does noetic scales make the cut in a pox like deck?" As it probably does in the right meta, at least sideboard. The real question is, "why the hell are you playing pox?"

[Jon Stewart]

I don't think the question is, "does noetic scales make the cut in a pox like deck?" As it probably does in the right meta, at least sideboard. The real question is, "why the hell are you playing pox?"

Why the hell wouldn't I?

The metagame is perfect for Pox. Pox has fantastic game against aggro and aggro control, and incredibly potent sideboard and maindeck options against combo.

Assuming a decklist similar to what I posted above (with Thoughtseize instead of Duress), how can you realistically argue that Pox has fewer good matchups than bad ones (the standard criteria to decide if a deck is worth playing)?

Assume a sideboard along these lines to supplement the above maindeck....

4 Leyline of the Void
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Powder Keg
2 Innocent Blood
1 Wretched Banquet

(Just off the top of my head).

Exactly what common matchups do you think will be very difficult for such a Pox deck?

[FoolofaTook]

Disruption-based themes that do not include counters or card advantage/quality promoters tend to be glass cannons in the Legacy metagame. They look wonderful when they are clicking or facing the opponent they want and terrible when the draws are mediocre or the opponent not favored.

Tempo Threshold is good because it has ways to look at a bunch of cards and it has counters to handle leakage early on all combined with very effective disruption.

[Jon Stewart]

Just about every card the deck plays HAS to be countered. And every permanent is a lock piece all by itself.

Duress effectively stops a counterspell.

Hymn effectively stops a counterspell.

Smallpox, Pox and Noetic Scales all produce card advantage when used properly because of the manner in which the deck is designed.

And Oppression is an extremely powerful bomb against all those cantrip based decks you just mentioned.

So I don't see your whole, you must play blue to be competitive in legacy argument. When every card the deck plays is a bomb, it doens't much matter that the deck doesn't play blue. Because your opponent would have to counter every single thing you play in order to stay afloat.

[FoolofaTook]

Just about every card the deck plays HAS to be countered. And every permanent is a lock piece all by itself.

Duress effectively stops a counterspell.

Hymn effectively stops a counterspell.

Smallpox, Pox and Noetic Scales all produce card advantage when used properly because of the manner in which the deck is designed.

And Oppression is an extremely powerful bomb against all those cantrip based decks you just mentioned.

So I don't see your whole, you must play blue to be competitive legacy argument. When every card the deck plays is a bomb, it doens't much matter that the deck doesn't play blue. Because your opponent would have to counter every single thing you play in order to stay afloat.

And what happens when you draw Duress or Hymn to Tourach instead of Innocent Blood or Smallpox with a Tarmogoyf on the board already? What happens when you draw 2 Dark Rituals and 2 Swamps over a 4 turn span when you needed business instead? What happens when the opponent, through your disruption, lands Sensei's Divining Top and then uses top to make sure they can land Counterbalance?

The deck would look really good when it was working, probably quite dominant in fact. It wouldn't work as smoothly as you think though because it has no way to promote the cards you need when you need them.

[Jon Stewart]

If you want to have a serious discussion on the merits of Pox, please post your concerns over a the Pox thread.

Pox is an established deck, it has a ton of players. And it's top 8ed at many tournaments over the years. If you have questions about how it functions, there's dozens of posters over at the Pox thread you can talk to.

So there's no reason for comments along the lines of "why the hell are you playing pox" here.

This is an SCD thread. And the point I"m making is that Noetic Scales does indeed work better than all other alternatives in an already well established legacy deck.

But I'll quickly answer the two situations you just posed...


And what happens when you draw Duress or Hymn to Tourach instead of Innocent Blood or Smallpox with a Tarmogoyf on the board already?.

To correct your false assumption, no Innocent Blood and Smallpox aren't the only answers to Tarmogoyf that you play.

You play 4 Noetic Scales, 4 Smallpox, 4 Pox, 4 Thoughtseize and 2 Innocent Blood. That's 18 cards, which means that you start out with 2-3 in your opening hand just on average, and draw them as frequently as most decks draws lands.

You play way more removal than aggro control decks play threats. Your removal can hit several multiple creatures at the same time to boot. Not to mention that Totem can easily race Tarmogoyf if push comes to shove.


What happens when you draw 2 Dark Rituals and 2 Swamps over a 4 turn span when you needed business instead?

It's just as likely that those Dark Rituals help you drop down all the lock pieces and disruption in your hand and screw your opponent out of the game completely. But assuming that's not the case and those Dark Rituals are indeed poor draws.

The same thing that happens when any other deck draws 4 lands in a row when they need something else.

You're picking out things that happen to most every deck. Zoo, Geddon Stax, Dragon Stompy, Fairie Stompy, Merfolk, 43 lands pretty much every deck can draw 4 mana sources in a row. Plenty of successful legacy decks don't play cantrips. I don't see what point you're proving.

Like most prison decks, the plan is to lock down your opponent with either Oppression or Noetic Scales or Pox or Smallpox or some combination there of. If you can't resolve a lock piece and then get a series of bad top decks you lose. This can happen to even the best deck in the format, Zoo. If Zoo can't resolve a threat and get a series of bad top decks, it loses. Welcome to magic, bad top decks happen, and they cost games.

If you want more of a follow up, please post your concerns over in the Pox thread. Thanks.

If instead, you want to talk about Noetic Scales in particular, whether in Quinn, MBC, Pox or anywhere else (rather than about the merits of those decks as a whole), here's the place to post.

[FoolofaTook]

You're playing 24 cards that are of no use but as mana/acceleration. You have no way to follow fast disruption up with a quick win. Your disruption tends to be good in some situations and bad in others.

Ask people in the Pox thread how often they get a soft lock and cannot win anyway because the opponent wiggles out of it or their own draw suddenly goes cold and gives the opponent recovery time. There's a reason that Pox isn't a tier 1 deck or even close, and it isn't the cost of building it.

[Pastorofmuppets]

with landstill on a downward spiral and xLand not being as popular as we thought it was, Scales actually isn't too bad. With recurring 187's and Factories to beat with, you've got yourself a nice little control deck. It's not the new uber legacy tech, though.
Tombstalker won't like it very much.

[kilukru]

Im a pox player so here I go :

The scales is 4cc, right there the card is bad for pox. Hitting 4 mana is pretty hard to do on a consistent basis with the deck, unless you play ritual, wich is really sub par for a pox list.

Oppression is good in the early game, so once again it need to be ritual powered to be effective. Pox is pretty good at raping opponent mana base, so in the long run the will have plenty of cards in ahnd and will only play crucial spell anyway so they wont care for oppression.

Drop by the pox thread, you seem to have the right mindset (raping baby's) to play pox, youll find a lot of fun tricks there.

[Jon Stewart]

If you have a question about how Pox works, you can go ask it in the Pox thread. Here's we should talk about if the function Noetic Scales serves is useful for Pox, if it's better than alternatives, and if there's any other cards that function well with it.

The deck does play Ritual, and Phyrexian Totem which doubles as a mana source. So reaching 4 mana won't be difficult.

As you said, Oppression is fantastic especially with Ritual. Which is why I play it. It's great even without being ritualed out. Tons of decks play cantrips. Oppression decimates those strategies. It also rapes combo decks, and makes things tough for everything else.

Pox works great in topdeck mode. That's the mode it wants to get opponents to asap. Because other decks have a really tough time when they're in topdeck mode. Oppression helps with that goal.

I already posted the list in the Pox thread.

Let's talk about the card itself. So...

Is it better than the alternatives?

Does it have a useful function in Pox type decks?

What cards that I forgot about work well with it?

Stuff like that...