Legacy coming to MTGO on March 31st

[Pinder]

So is anyone actually going to use this (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/other/030910a)? I have to say, rules enforcement would alleviate a bunch of MWS headaches, and it might be worth it just for that.

However, the article didn't specifically state that the entire Legacy card pool is coming to MTGO as well. So that might be a deal breaker.

[majikal]

I honestly think that MTGO has a worse availability problem than real-life Magic does. Certain sets just weren't opened in large enough numbers to provide the cards needed to play. Just look at the Exodus debacle. There's something like ~100 of each Exodus rare in existence online. Simply unacceptable.

[Artowis]

The entire Legacy card pool will be there in 2 years. Right now there's a signficant chunk of the tournament played cards on there. That said, getting a hold of those cards is a freaking joke. FOW is 60 and it's only worse for a bunch of other OOP cards.

[Nihil Credo]

Just look at the Exodus debacle. There's something like ~100 of each Exodus rare in existence online. Simply unacceptable.
Is that a typo or are you sure of that number? Because if so, it's completely ridiculous. Taking City of Traitors, Survival, and Manabond out of the metagame is already a massive warping.

[FoolofaTook]

It'll get around the Legacy paper card supply "problem" nicely. If they change the redemption policy to include single cards and not just sets it might also get around the paper problem and make WotC a huge amount of money in the process.

Oops, just read the intervening posts between the first and this one, I guess WotC enjoys rarity as a price factor online as much as they do offline.

[caiomarcos]

It'll get around the Legacy paper card supply "problem" nicely. If they change the redemption policy to include single cards and not just sets it might also get around the paper problem and make WotC a huge amount of money in the process.

I don't think redemption is available for OOP sets.

[majikal]

Is that a typo or are you sure of that number? Because if so, it's completely ridiculous. Taking City of Traitors, Survival, and Manabond out of the metagame is already a massive warping.
Not a typo at all, sir. Nobody turned up for the Exodus release, and for some stupid reason they stopped selling the packs in the store as soon as the release events were over, which was also early because of poor attendance.

[FoolofaTook]

I don't think redemption is available for OOP sets.

I looked it up and they say redemption is good for 4 years after a set is released. They don't say whether that's after the actual set is released or the virtual one.

[caiomarcos]

I looked it up and they say redemption is good for 4 years after a set is released. They don't say whether that''s after the actual set is released or the virtual one.

I believe it's after the actual release. I remember reading about it when Mirage was released online. Actually, I'm pretty sure redemption is not an option for old sets. People would be redeeming LEDs, Diamonds and Duals like crazy.

[FoolofaTook]

I believe it's after the actual release. I remember reading about it when Mirage was released online. Actually, I'm pretty sure redemption is not an option for old sets. People would be redeeming LEDs, Diamonds and Duals like crazy.

Here's the thing though, keeping the LED, Diamond or Dual would give you a big advantage online in whatever formats they were legal in, because if people were really redeeming these things enmasse you'd have part of a very small power pool. I think it's an interesting question as to how many virtual copies would be redeemed for paper.

[Artowis]

Redemption doesn't work for older sets. Otherwise the older sets wouldn't be the massive disaster they always are. If they ever did change the rule I suspect it would be for Master's Edition sets and it would be the first major Eternal reprint push.

To be clear here for those who don't use MTGO. There's a Redemption Guarantee Date which is typically a year and a half to two years in advance. People can redeem sets freely at that point and WOTC will restock the store with Redemption Requests until that date. After that is the Cutoff Date (Expiration Date), at which point the set stops being redeemable forever. If they run out of sets before the date, it's also gone forever, they won't make more.

[Aggro_zombies]

Are online constructed events free to play in? It just seems to make no sense to shell out a million dollars to build an electronic version of a deck I want to test, only to shell out even more money to figure out it's a total failure. I already have most of the staples in real life; getting online duplicates seems like a real pain for little gain when MWS sessions with competent opponents aren't hard to arrange.

[Clark Kant]

Meh, OCTGN 2.0 is better. Especially since they added drafting.

http://www.kickasstorrents.com/octgn-w-magic-the-gathering-2-8-t3429809.html

[menace13]

Oh yea!!!
Master's Edition packs while playing Legacy is so baller.
Surprised they decided to implement it so swiftly, glad they did it. Look forward to seeing some of you in the events.

[MMogg]

That said, getting a hold of those cards is a freaking joke. FOW is 60 and it's only worse for a bunch of other OOP cards.

This! This, this THIS!! I seriously looked into building a Legacy deck online and even "cheap" decks are expensive, such as anything with Force of Will or duals or LED. I think one of the cool parts of online should be the cheaper prices, but that's not the way it has turned out and there's no way in hell I'm going to fork out $60 ea for virtual cards. I'll stick to Pauper and Mormir Basic. LOL

[Meekrab]

I have never understood the point of paying actual real money for things that only exist on the internet. Still don't. If MTGO was like, an online playtest/tournament community with unlimited card access and, say, a $5/mo subscription fee (obviously with tournament entry fees) then I might could be intersted in signing up.

[MMogg]

I have never understood the point of paying actual real money for things that only exist on the internet. Still don't. If MTGO was like, an online playtest/tournament community with unlimited card access and, say, a $5/mo subscription fee (obviously with tournament entry fees) then I might could be intersted in signing up.

Well, personally, playing Magic any time I want in my home, pretty much 24/7, 365 days a year, is a bonus, especially when no one in my town plays Magic.

[Meekrab]

Of course, but why should I have to pay for online cards per pack or buy separate digital singles? It just seems silly when I could put the money into real cards.

[walkerdog]

Is that a typo or are you sure of that number? Because if so, it's completely ridiculous. Taking City of Traitors, Survival, and Manabond out of the metagame is already a massive warping.

He is either stupid or just wrong. Oath, while uncommon, gets cracked daily due to $12 TSE drafts, and they're going for a "mere" $35-40.

manabond, CoT, Sur are all $35 (sur) or less, and while some hoarding is occuring, MTGO prices are not nearly as bad as paper. Dangerlinto wrote a sweet article about it on puremtgo.

[walkerdog]

Are online constructed events free to play in? It just seems to make no sense to shell out a million dollars to build an electronic version of a deck I want to test, only to shell out even more money to figure out it's a total failure. I already have most of the staples in real life; getting online duplicates seems like a real pain for little gain when MWS sessions with competent opponents aren't hard to arrange.

That's just... well, it's not as bad as your are thinking for a couple of reasons: You know what staples are. You will buy them, and they won't suck. Duals, FoW, 2-mana lands, etc are always playable in some sort of deck. It won't cost millions (could cost a few grand if you wanted 4x of everything). Also, cards are much more liquid on MTGO. Y'know how your options in paper for Legacy cards are friends, local dealers, online dealers and ebay? Well, imagine if you had a global bulletin board that you could trade cards on instantaneously. MTGO has that. You don't take much or any loss on selling off stuff you do not want.

[walkerdog]

This! This, this THIS!! I seriously looked into building a Legacy deck online and even "cheap" decks are expensive, such as anything with Force of Will or duals or LED. I think one of the cool parts of online should be the cheaper prices, but that's not the way it has turned out and there's no way in hell I'm going to fork out $60 ea for virtual cards. I'll stick to Pauper and Mormir Basic. LOL

From Dangerlinto's article on Puremtgo http://puremtgo.com/articles/embracing-legacy-online

Place Deck $ SCG $ MTGO
1st Zoo $834.00 $421.75
2nd 38 Land $1191.25 $626.25
3rd Fish $969.50 $683.25
4th Imperial Painter $1002.00 $381.25
5th Fish $533.25 $442.75
6th Fish $518.00 $426.00
7th Threshold $1109.75 $7 07.75
8th U/W Tempo $755.98 $509.75
9th Imperial Painter $987.50 $336.75
10th Dredge $189.00 $126.25
11th Fish $485.50 $420.75
12th Fish $514.50 $420.50
13th Aggro Loam $1029.75 $736.25
14th Dark Zoo $956.50 $484.50
15th ANT $603.25 $419.75
16th Countertop $1333.25 $853.25
19th Dream Halls $505.00 $435.75

So you're complaining because it's not super-free or what?

[Aggro_zombies]

(could cost a few grand if you wanted 4x of everything)
This would be the point, as I would want the ability to test decks I was thinking about taking to a paper tournament. I already have several grand locked up in paper versions of the staples, and I'm not keen to do it all over again for a program which is apparently buggy and has a UI I don't like.

[MMogg]

Of course, but why should I have to pay for online cards per pack or buy separate digital singles? It just seems silly when I could put the money into real cards.

What's the difference? Physical cards are just paper and can be ruined or damaged, are a pain in the ass when you move, etc. Considering MTGO has been functioning for more than half a decade, I think it's fairly safe that the cards will remain yours. They have actually been expanding MTGO, and now have high level events, so I don't see why one would worry their cards would somehow disappear. If that isn't your concern, then what is? You just wanna snuggle up to your cards. Sleeve and desleeve? LOL

I can't understand the "why should I have to pay" comment. It's not a free product produced by the government and based on taxes. It's a corporation providing entertainment, so why shouldn't you have to pay? If your question is more, why not a flat fee, well, that really is antithetical to the whole idea of a CCG/TCG.

Also, this way may be cheaper. You can build a decent Pauper deck for $3-5, and then you can play that one deck over and over and over. No extra fees. Your way, I would have to play a flat fee (what? $9.99) each month, even if I hardly played or regardless of how many decks I built. Once you've build a deck and bought the cards it turns out to be cheaper in the end.

Lastly, it's funny how you distinguish MTGO and paper MTG with the word "real". They're both real. Is your email account not real? Is correspondence with your friends not real? I think we need to shift the paradigm with which we think of digital products. Anyway, just thought that was funny.


From Dangerlinto's article on Puremtgo http://puremtgo.com/articles/embracing-legacy-online

Place Deck $ SCG $ MTGO
1st Zoo $834.00 $421.75
2nd 38 Land $1191.25 $626.25
3rd Fish $969.50 $683.25
4th Imperial Painter $1002.00 $381.25
5th Fish $533.25 $442.75
6th Fish $518.00 $426.00
7th Threshold $1109.75 $7 07.75
8th U/W Tempo $755.98 $509.75
9th Imperial Painter $987.50 $336.75
10th Dredge $189.00 $126.25
11th Fish $485.50 $420.75
12th Fish $514.50 $420.50
13th Aggro Loam $1029.75 $736.25
14th Dark Zoo $956.50 $484.50
15th ANT $603.25 $419.75
16th Countertop $1333.25 $853.25
19th Dream Halls $505.00 $435.75

So you're complaining because it's not super-free or what?

What exactly is "super-free"? Is there a degree of "free"? I thought free meant, well, free. :laugh:

No, but I would expect that virtual cards would be cheaper than their paper counterparts. I'm all for MTGO costing money for singles, but I do think that they should be able to keep prices a little reasonable. MTGOtraders.com has zero LEDs at $60 each. Paper LEDs are about $30 (give or take), and even judging by online single retailer prices, the MTGO is higher.

Edit: let me preempt your reply. I can see on the whole deck prices are cheaper, but the problem is I'm already heavily invested in paper, so I cannot afford to also heavily invest in virtual. So, certain singles do act as a barrier to my own personal decision over whether to get into online Legacy or not. I hope that explains my "complaining" a little more articulately.

Also, learn to multi-quote. :tongue:

[walkerdog]

This would be the point, as I would want the ability to test decks I was thinking about taking to a paper tournament. I already have several grand locked up in paper versions of the staples, and I'm not keen to do it all over again for a program which is apparently buggy and has a UI I don't like.

As I said above, there is a pretty high rate of liquidity online. You can cash out with little-to-no loss in eternal formats. Look at it like this: I bought Goyfs for ~15ish each online, FoWs for 17.5, LEDs when they were in the teens, same with Noughts, Stifle at 4 (where it still is), enemy fetches are still under $5 each, etc. You don't tend to take much of a loss if you need to sell or swap around your cards. I'm not saying you have to play online, but it is not a bad way to play, and you can play tournaments every day of the week.

[Artowis]

I have never understood the point of paying actual real money for things that only exist on the internet. Still don't. If MTGO was like, an online playtest/tournament community with unlimited card access and, say, a $5/mo subscription fee (obviously with tournament entry fees) then I might could be intersted in signing up.

Getting good competition at any time of day or night regardless of location is of some interest to people. Especially those who want to get better at Magic and have to work or school (or both) a lot.


Are online constructed events free to play in? It just seems to make no sense to shell out a million dollars to build an electronic version of a deck I want to test, only to shell out even more money to figure out it's a total failure.

Constructed events aren't free, but it's not hard to spend very little on them if you don't suck and quite a few people 'go infinite' by just playing Constructed and not drafting much. The other nice thing is that you can spend a bunch on your deck, find out it's a failure, and usually get all the money back that you spent on it. Or like 75-80% if it was some 'hot deck' that suddenly had a major card take a price plunge. It really isn't tough to trade decks around on MODO and sometimes you can even profit if you sell when a deck has seen an uptick in play.

Extended this season was a good example. I bought in early and got two decks for about 150. After two and a half months of use I dumped all the stuff worth money for about 225 and have an entirely different deck. When you get in at the beginning of format cycles then it isn't hard to spend a lot upfront and make a profit even if the deck isn't that good.

[walkerdog]

I should have mult-quoted; I just kept seeing more things to reply to. I can understand not wanting to heavily get into digital when you have paper stuff, but barring PTQs, GP, semi-high levels of competition, I wouldn't even bother with paper anymore. MTGO is too easy. Plus, as mentioned above, it is not terribly hard to limit the amount you spend online or go infinite. I buy cards when new sets come out, but otherwise, I spend nothing online.

[walkerdog]

Derpdoublepost.

[Elfrago]

Constructed events aren't free, but it's not hard to spend very little on them if you don't suck and quite a few people 'go infinite' by just playing Constructed and not drafting much.


I second this, I'm going infinite this way.
And, for the sake of god, don't compare MTGO to Workstation or stuff like that. Not having to deal with countless idiots is worth the initial investment. Also, you're not going to improve as a player if you keep playing against the amazing competition of the Workstation public server.

Anyway, bottom line is: we shouldn't complain about this, it's more exposure for our format and more ways to play it. Workstation will still be there for those who don't want to play on MTGO.

[Forbiddian]

http://www.mtgotraders.com/cgi-bin/shop-bin/sc/productsearch.cgi?storeid=*2645aea004a115553e5ef7e05eb7f1d1994c7c9f8b

There have to be more than 100 of each Exodus rare. Sorry, that doesn't make any sense for one online retailer to have >10% of the market share and only charge $40 bucks for it. Among other signs like I routinely see people playing with Survivals/Mana Bonds. I think there's maybe 500, maybe 1000 out there? Certainly more than 10-20 playsets, though.



About the embracing MTGO article: I would gladly trade a lot of paper stock to get to play the MTGO cards that I want. The problem is that I can't do that easily. The only way I can see to get more MTGO stuff is to spend a huge amount USD in one shot. Which means I have to sell through an online intermediary, like Ebay, which creates a huge hassle for me.

A big part of why I play Legacy is that I don't have to do this. I can update my card pool, trade for a few things, and I'm good to go, investing maybe only $100 or $200 a year on this game. The fact that online cards are cheaper if you sum up the dealer prices isn't as impactful as the fact that the online cards would cost me $500 out of pocket and the offline cards would cost me $50-$100 out of pocket even if I had to trade for an entire 75.

[majikal]

http://www.mtgotraders.com/cgi-bin/shop-bin/sc/productsearch.cgi?storeid=*2645aea004a115553e5ef7e05eb7f1d1994c7c9f8b

There have to be more than 100 of each Exodus rare. Sorry, that doesn't make any sense for one online retailer to have >10% of the market share and only charge $40 bucks for it. Among other signs like I routinely see people playing with Survivals/Mana Bonds. I think there's maybe 500, maybe 1000 out there? Certainly more than 10-20 playsets, though.



About the embracing MTGO article: I would gladly trade a lot of paper stock to get to play the MTGO cards that I want. The problem is that I can't do that easily. The only way I can see to get more MTGO stuff is to spend a huge amount USD in one shot. Which means I have to sell through an online intermediary, like Ebay, which creates a huge hassle for me.

A big part of why I play Legacy is that I don't have to do this. I can update my card pool, trade for a few things, and I'm good to go, investing maybe only $100 or $200 a year on this game. The fact that online cards are cheaper if you sum up the dealer prices isn't as impactful as the fact that the online cards would cost me $500 out of pocket and the offline cards would cost me $50-$100 out of pocket even if I had to trade for an entire 75.
Somebody said they're doing nix pax TSE drafts now, so I guess there's probably more than there were when I stopped playing online. At any rate the number is most likely not even in the quadruple digits. Quoting the current prices is useless as they're just going to skyrocket when Legacy is implemented.

[thickasabrick]

Of course, but why should I have to pay for online cards per pack or buy separate digital singles? It just seems silly when I could put the money into real cards.

You feel better investing your money in cardboard?

Personally I've completely cashed out my paper collection in exchange for online cards. It's so much more convenient. I love being able to get a game any time of the day without leaving the house, not having to deal with traveling to paper events, and the ability to play a tournament while lying in bed with my girl. I still get together with friends to play casually, but when it comes to tournaments my paper days are over.

[SilverGreen]

Both intuition and logical thinking leads us to the same conclusions Dangerlinto came to in his article. Legacy at MTGO is the next step to the format, and a really big one, we all may agree with it or not, we all may like it or not. I personally loved it. It's extremelly difficult for me to play tournaments in loco nowadays, and the simple fact that I'll be allowed to play Legacy everywhere, every hour, everyday, makes me anxious to clear my wallet and become moneyless and indebted, but happy. And for sure there'll be a substantial portion of the community that'll feel and act the same way. The prices of Legacy singles will skyrocket in the next weeks and months, and this phenomenon can even start in the next few days, as soon as people begin to be aware of the anouncement.

In another note, it's simply ilogical, irrational, suicidal, that Wizards create an artificial and controlled environment where the barrier to entry is so high that the format's own flourish would make it collapse. We know it and they know it even better. I'm 100% sure that in the wake of the discussions about the Eternal formats growth, the abolishing of the Reserved list and others, things will change. Because they might change, and quickly.

I dare to say that yet in this early half of the year we'll hear some breaking news. The Reserved List will fall, it's general consensus (and perhaps an already decided matter). Wizards even allowed Smnemm and Ben Bleiwess to act as "official unofficial" heralds to this upcoming event. MTGO Masters Editions' experience could also be the basis to a similar retail procuct in paper. I even think (I hope for sure, but logically think it too) that they'll finally start to putting real stuff in their FtV and other premium series. Mox Diamond and/or Lion's Eye Diamond would be HUGE additions to From the Vault: Relics for example, speaking logically, commercially and strategically.

Another thing I see as inadmissible is the discontinuance of the sellings of older sets at the MTGO Online Store, based in a collectability line of thought similar to the one that holds the Reserved List, and the fool belief that sellings of an older set would have an impact over newer ones. I want (as dealers will want) to be able to crack packs and "boxes" of Exodus every time I feel the need to find a fresh City of Traitors. I can understand this discontinuance in what reffers to cardboard Magic, but to digital Magic? It only serves to create artificial scarcity, artificial overpricings and artificial entry barriers.

One more final, unrelated thought: Online Legacy will only be Legacy in about two years, and only if they release something like Masters Edition IV and V (or if they start to furiously insert reprints in newer sets). I still need a digital Reverent Silence for my online Aggro Loam and some digital Sinkholes for two or three other online pet decks.

[Tychoides]

Honestly, I'd really love to be able to play Legacy online and not use MWS, but MODO is kind of a poorly designed application despite doing a better job at enforcing rules and such. Maybe it's the programmer in me, but I can't stand MODO's design layout. Call me crazy, but if I could play online with a MODO card pool using the Duels of the Planeswalkers XBOX Live Arcade game, I'd do that in a heartbeat...

Like other people here, though, I think I'm way too invested in the real cardboard to make that leap. I already own playsets of the duals, FoW, and tons of other Legacy staples and having to rebuy digital versions is just not that appealing unless they make it easier to get singles or do some really nice re-releases of some sets.

That said, if the online Legacy really takes off, I'd consider selling my cardboard for the digital while the iron is hot, so to speak.

[walkerdog]

MODO's interface is awful, but after ~6 months you kind of get over it. I still hate it, but it's a silent hate, beneath the surface.

[MMogg]

MODO's interface is awful, but after ~6 months you kind of get over it. I still hate it, but it's a silent hate, beneath the surface.

Wow, that's funny how subjective these things are. After struggling with MWS, I absolutely love MTGO's interface. The only bad thing is it is too good in that optional triggers like Masticore's would have a reminder, which takes away the chance of your opponent screwing up and making mistakes. At the same time, the whole double click, fudge I skipped my attack phase, really blows.

[Link Ramirez]

I would gladly trade a lot of paper stock to get to play the MTGO cards that I want.

I did exactly this after they announced that Legacy will go online this year. After playing Classic for a few weeks now (Bazaar powered Dredge is unfair) waiting for the Legacy launch I have to say rule enforcement is great. There is no "wait, I wanted to Stifle your fetch"
And being able to play whenever (except on Wednesday) is also huge.

And for the price debate. Moat for 4.5$. Just saying...

[Gocho]

The next time press F3 ;)

MTGO II interface was better than MTGO III, sometimes I try to start a game and the program shuts down. The connection is very slow, but the play works fine.

I hope that MTGO IV would improve it

[ImpinAintEasy]

I can personally attest that there are more than 100 copies of Surival online, because I drafted/cracked 9 of them. There have been Nix Tix/Pax drafts for awhile now and I've been doing at least 2-3 every weekend. Some of the higher prices have nose dived recently. I think they will start a nice incline though, esp duals.

I am super stoked about Legacy coming online because I've never had the opportunity to play Legacy on paper.

As far as prices for cards go:

Paper magic had the Duals reprinted in Revised, it is my opinion that at some point MTGO will have Duals reprinted.

I think WOTC is testing the waters by bringing Legacy online quicker than expected. If there was ever a time to do it, the time was now, right after the biggest tournament ever!

Sorry to lazy for quotes, but the person who said LED is at 60 is wrong, price for MTGOtraders is currently 48. The card prices will balance out for those willing to make the investment.
Plus, you are silly if you think WOTC isn't watching the market. If/when it becomes a problem, I look for a FTV:Relics to solve it.

Sure the interface isn't the best, but there are ways to improve that if you are willing to take the time.

The fact that I can sit in my house, feet propped up on the desk, listening to the latest Muse track is a bonus beyond all imagination! You really can play a match anytime, heck they even have 2-man tournaments that are fast and easy.

[caiomarcos]

Did everything double in proce already?

Seriously, how are the prices of Legacy staples doing?

[ImpinAintEasy]

I've been tracking the prices of 31 legacy staples since 3-8-10. Some of them have increased, some have stayed the same.

Underground Sea when from 41 to 45
Tundra from 32 to 34
Taiga from 21 to 24
Bayou from 18 to 20
Tropical Island from 26 to 32
Plateau from 12 to 16
Volcanic from 16 to 18
Scrubland from 15 to 16
LED from 40 to 48
Manabond from 11 to 12
Natural Order from 17 to 20
Entomb from 18 to 25
Force of Will from 64 to 66
Dreadnought went down from 28 to 26
City of Traitors went down from 27 to 26
Wasteland went from 13 to 13.50

[menace13]

I've been tracking the prices of 31 legacy staples since 3-8-10. Some of them have increased, some have stayed the same.

Underground Sea when from 41 to 45
Tundra from 32 to 34
Taiga from 21 to 24
Bayou from 18 to 20
Tropical Island from 26 to 32
Plateau from 12 to 16
Volcanic from 16 to 18
Scrubland from 15 to 16
LED from 40 to 48
Manabond from 11 to 12
Natural Order from 17 to 20
Entomb from 18 to 25
Force of Will from 64 to 66
Dreadnought went down from 28 to 26
City of Traitors went down from 27 to 26
Wasteland went from 13 to 13.50

These prices will only get higher from here IMO, Sea will hit 60 and Taiga will hit 40( that is embarrassing for digital productions}

[morgan_coke]

keeping all the legacy only legal sets on sale fixes this problem. every time the prices get high enough that the EV on packs gets worth selling, more packs will be bought and opened, thus increasing the supply until the EV drops enough to not make it worth it anymore. Won't make the cards cheap, but it will stabilize their prices no matter how much the player pool expands.

[ImpinAintEasy]

These prices will only get higher from here IMO, Sea will hit 60 and Taiga will hit 40( that is embarrassing for digital productions}

I agree the prices will continue to rise, but keep in mind the prices have already risen recently even before the announcement of Legacy coming to mtgo. While I know the prices haven't peaked, they certainly have already substained increases up to this point.

I talked about card pricing in my article "To Infinity and Beyond (http://puremtgo.com/articles/infinity-and-beyond)" over at pure.

On 2-4-10 here were some of those card prices,

Badlands -14
Bayou - 14
City of Traitors -19
LED - 38
Mox Diamond - 32
Plateau - 12
Savannah - 15
Scrubland - 12
Taiga - 17.50
Tropical Island - 18
Tundra - 23
Underground Sea - 32
Volcanic Island - 14
Wasteland - 10

As you can see there was already increases from 2-4-10 until 3-8-10 with only an announcement of Legacy slated for Dec 2010.

DangerLinto made a well written article already posted here showing ppl the differences between paper and digital.
While I expect many people to not play online simply due to cost, I also expect many people to play online due to convenience(sp) factor.

[MattH]

I can personally attest that there are more than 100 copies of Surival online, because I drafted/cracked 9 of them. There have been Nix Tix/Pax drafts for awhile now and I've been doing at least 2-3 every weekend.
I believe The "100 copies" thing was in reference to the amount opened on the release weekend, which was cut short, or poorly attended, or both (or so I heard from people who actually play online). I would hope the supply has gone up since then!

[menace13]

I believe The "100 copies" thing was in reference to the amount opened on the release weekend, which was cut short, or poorly attended, or both (or so I heard from people who actually play online). I would hope the supply has gone up since then!

One would hope that MTGO has more than 25 Survival decks online.
I think i know 25 people whom own SotF, But it is rather priced high due to all the major singles dealers NOT cracking a Booster.
The prices are going to become an issue unless WotC steps in-folks are already apprehensive to buying expensive digitals as is-.

[ImpinAintEasy]

One would hope that MTGO has more than 25 Survival decks online.
I think i know 25 people whom own SotF, But it is rather priced high due to all the major singles dealers NOT cracking a Booster.
The prices are going to become an issue unless WotC steps in-folks are already apprehensive to buying expensive digitals as is-.

I know I own 4, so that would leave 21 lol.........oh plus I sold at least 4 more I received in drafts, so down to 17.

The comment of 100 is so far from the truth it's not even funny.

[majikal]

I know I own 4, so that would leave 21 lol.........oh plus I sold at least 4 more I received in drafts, so down to 17.

The comment of 100 is so far from the truth it's not even funny.

I believe The "100 copies" thing was in reference to the amount opened on the release weekend, which was cut short, or poorly attended, or both (or so I heard from people who actually play online). I would hope the supply has gone up since then!
Reading is tech.

[Nihil Credo]

Reading is tech.
This is what you wrote:

I honestly think that MTGO has a worse availability problem than real-life Magic does. Certain sets just weren't opened in large enough numbers to provide the cards needed to play. Just look at the Exodus debacle. There's something like ~100 of each Exodus rare in existence online. Simply unacceptable.
So don't act snippy. Any misunderstanding has been your fault.

[ImpinAintEasy]

Reading is tech.


Key word in his sentence......."Believe" meaning he doesn't know what the person originally posting the comment was referring to.

Whether he was referring to release weekend or not is irrelevant. His comment would lead people to believe this to be fact when it simply wasn't true.

Reading might be tech, but knowing the facts as opposed to spewing falsehoods is true tech!

[MMogg]

What I find funny, and I find myself thinking this way too, is the development of an either/or situation: either paper or online. It seems that the cost of online Magic is not low enough to make it easy to enter competitively for one who is already heavily invested in paper. A couple people in this thread have already said they have given up paper for online Magic and others (myself included) find themselves wanting to play online, but are trapped in paper. I don't really like that too much and I wish the online version were cheaper. Not free, but cheaper. I know and understand why it isn't, but I nevertheless wish my Magic fun weren't mutually exclusive. Is someone really meant to buy staples (or even a deck) twice? It has taken me many years to accumulate the paper I have and it seems like my choices are to sell out my paper for online or have limited and mediocre paper and online resources.

I know this won't change, but I just feel like a great chance is missed to develop a good combined online and offline Legacy community.

[Forbiddian]

I know and understand why it isn't [cheaper], but I nevertheless wish my Magic fun weren't mutually exclusive.

I actually have no idea why it isn't cheaper. The reason for the skyhigh prices is that some cards went out of print, which doesn't really make sense since Wizards can always pick up $4 for free off anybody who wants to buy a pack.

If all the packs were still in print, we wouldn't see stuff like $40 Survivals, $60 Forces, $60 dual lands, etc. Wizards could just put those packs back on sale, sell a ton of product, and everyone's happy.

[MMogg]

I actually have no idea why it isn't cheaper. The reason for the skyhigh prices is that some cards went out of print, which doesn't really make sense since Wizards can always pick up $4 for free off anybody who wants to buy a pack.

If all the packs were still in print, we wouldn't see stuff like $40 Survivals, $60 Forces, $60 dual lands, etc. Wizards could just put those packs back on sale, sell a ton of product, and everyone's happy.

This is pure speculation, but considering whenever I go online to play I see a list of 60% Standard, 30% Extended, and 10% other, I would say that the bulk of product being opened is not Legacy/Classic. Even if packs were available, I don't think people who wanted to play Legacy would be cracking packs to get Force of Will.

I can understand the high prices of singles because people have to pay a pretty high price for packs and I don't think that many online packs get opened (in comparison with paper). Lately, I think an increasing amount of people are becoming interested in online gaming, but there aren't enough opened singles to support this emerging player base. Lastly, unlike paper, a lot of the older sets as they emerge already have established chase cards in them and the prices are sort of artificially fixed based on their long standing paper counterparts. For example, Wasteland, LED, Force of Will, duals, etc. are known as amazing cards before the online sets are released whereas all of those cards were normal or even under appreciated at the time of their original paper release. (Is that at all making sense?) These cards aren't potentially good and "chasey" like Jace, Mind Sculptor or that new fat Butcher, they ARE great and we already know it, which leads to artificial price fixing and hording or even less nefariously, a desperate need for a ton of those great cards and only limited amounts around.

Sorry that was long.

[dahcmai]

I bet if Wizards made a version that had all the cards and had a really high monthly fee like $15 to $20 a month or so, I think it would empty out MTGO instantly. I know I'd be on it.

I never understood the reasoning behind not reprinting digital cards. It just made Invasion block the Beta of online play and warped the prices compared to the paper versions. It's so strange how they have it set up now.

[walkerdog]

I bet if Wizards made a version that had all the cards and had a really high monthly fee like $15 to $20 a month or so, I think it would empty out MTGO instantly. I know I'd be on it.

I never understood the reasoning behind not reprinting digital cards. It just made Invasion block the Beta of online play and warped the prices compared to the paper versions. It's so strange how they have it set up now.

To give some guarentee of rarity... the same people who are all for reprinting packs online freak out about ABUR etc possibly having reprints from them, or the reserved list dying, and so forth.

[majikal]

This is what you wrote:

So don't act snippy. Any misunderstanding has been your fault.

Somebody said they're doing nix pax TSE drafts now, so I guess there's probably more than there were when I stopped playing online. At any rate the number is most likely not even in the quadruple digits.
Again, reading is tech.

[menace13]

Again, reading is tech.

That is so corny!

[TommyTopdecker]

Lastly, unlike paper, a lot of the older sets as they emerge already have established chase cards in them and the prices are sort of artificially fixed based on their long standing paper counterparts. For example, Wasteland, LED, Force of Will, duals, etc. are known as amazing cards before the online sets are released whereas all of those cards were normal or even under appreciated at the time of their original paper release. (Is that at all making sense?) These cards aren't potentially good and "chasey" like Jace, Mind Sculptor or that new fat Butcher, they ARE great and we already know it, which leads to artificial price fixing and hording or even less nefariously, a desperate need for a ton of those great cards and only limited amounts around.


This observation is right on. Also look at the flip side - the older sets are full of cards that are known to be unplayable in eternal formats (which is the only format older sets see play). You end up with a set where 3 or 4 rares are desired and everything else is complete junk. Contrast this with Worldwake where there are 4-5 formats where a card can be played and people aren't yet sure which cards will be broken which helps to inflate the value of future junk rares and deflate the value of future power rares. So it kind of makes sense that Null Rod is a $30 card online. Even with $30 Null Rods, it's still not +EV to crack Weatherlight packs at $4 each even if they were available.

Wizards has a tough problem here with singles prices on older sets. The best way out of it is to run "nix tix" events and promote them more. You guys would all play online MVW draft for $12 w/ $6 per player coming back in the form of prizes, right?