[Paranoia] Stopping Lands

[Tacosnape]

Chris Woltereck's Lands (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=31843) deck is a behemoth. If you're not preparing for this deck to some degree it's understandable, as most people can't afford to play it or just can't play it right for shit. But if you want to win, you need to start.

I pack six decks together in my box ready to go at a moment's notice. Merfolk, Goblins, Landstill, Zoo, Survival, and Reanimator. In testing these 6 decks in quick matches against lands, I went 0-6 in matches, 2-12 in games. Against a player I actually caught making mistakes. Piloted correctly, I'd have gone 1-12.

So other than "Play Belcher or ANT," I think it's time that more serious methods of stopping this deck be discussed. This is a thread for that purpose.

So what can my decks do to gain a fighting chance? In essence, what the hell hurts this deck?

Merfolk: Are there any more attractive options than Pithing Needle and Back to Basics in SB?
Goblins: Are there any more attractive options than Pithing Needle and Blood/Magus in SB?
Zoo: Is Price of Progress enoough to get you by Glacial Chasm if timed right? Or do you need Blood/Magus in board?
Survival: NO/Progenitus tends to meet Glacial Chasm or Tabernacle and landlock. Any plan besides Survivaling up a Magus?
Reanimator: Is there a better plan than getting an Inkwell down at all costs, protecting it at all costs, and hoping for the best?
UWR Landstill: Is Limited Resources remotely viable in conjunction with Ajani Vengeant and Pithing Needle? Is there any other trick I can work with?

[Sureshot]

His sideboard looks damn capable of even facing ANT or Belcher.

[morgan_coke]

Hi, Tsabo's Web is still legal. As are Winter Orb, Zo-zu, the Punisher, Tormod's Crypt, Leyline of the Void, Extirpate, Ravenous Trap, and Suppression Field. Thanks.

Honestly, it's not a bad deck, but there are a ton of ways to beat it, this isn't an OMG! Brokenz! situation.

[alderon666]

His sideboard looks damn capable of even facing ANT or Belcher.

By that you mean 4x Chalice of the Void? Yeah, not good enough.

Its best chance is a Chalice for 1 and a Wastelock. But the storm deck get infinite time to respond your Chalice and win.


On the SCG webcast I noticed people didn't have graveyard hate against it. Once that deck loses Life from the Loam it's just a clunky deck with random land. Sure he can tutor for some, but it's just not that good anymore. Extirpate seems like a fine answer, but the regular Crypt/Relic should give you a fighting chance. And even when they had, they didn't mulligan after it, goblins vs Tabernacle is just not a fair fight.

[walkerdog]

Hi, Tsabo's Web is still legal. As are Winter Orb, Zo-zu, the Punisher, Tormod's Crypt, Leyline of the Void, Extirpate, Ravenous Trap, and Suppression Field. Thanks.

Honestly, it's not a bad deck, but there are a ton of ways to beat it, this isn't an OMG! Brokenz! situation.

And with decks like Zoo and Loam, you CAN work towards running a basic-heavy base to support cards like Blood Moon or PoP. I think the main adjustment to make is to change your SB mindset.

[Eldariel]

Of course, it's worth figuring out if you're playing the match optimally first; Lands has a lot of red herrings but few cards that actually hurt and there's a multitude of gameplans. Can't go comprehensively over all archetypes you listed as I lack sufficient experience in some to figure out the optimal plan, but I've noticed that mostly, aggro decks can ignore most of the rest and focus on Maze/Tabernacle/Chasm/Academy Ruins.

Tabernacle can often be beaten via. basic lands, but Maze tends to require a Needle and the other two require some addressing as well. If tempoing them out by slowing down the Loam-engine (through counters/gravehate) and countering Manabond/Explo, just hoping they don't draw them is a viable plan as you're generally dealing with maybe one-two Mazes and a Tabernacle. Nothing you can't Waste/Vial your way through. This, of course, requires you to be mono-colored for sufficient basics to have enough lands to live through Ports+Tabernacles under their Waste-pressure. Multicolored decks need either tons of basics or an alternative strategy; sitting on fetches to force extra Waste/Port activations is pretty good tho.

Either way, if the tempo-plan doesn't work, just trying to build a board of basics and some way to get stuff into play means you can eventually overwhelm Mazes+Tabernacle and just need that Waste in hand to take out Chasm and swing for the win. With Slaverlock added to the pile, this obviously gets harder and the win needs to be more expedite, but counters can slow down the Slaver-crap by a decent amount, and buy a turn where Glacial Chasm isn't coming back for that matter.


Merfolk: Are there any more attractive options than Pithing Needle and Back to Basics in SB?

B2B seems like by far the best option here. Honestly, it should be enough too; use your counters to protect it and just make sure you land it; Needle Port if you have to. Between Aether Vial, Wastelands of your own and B2B, this shouldn't be terribly difficult when played correctly, especially with the addition of Tropical which negates their manlands as blockers, leaving them down to Maze and Tabernacle.

Of course, Mindslaver may require some actual actions from you, but your counters should be sufficient to make it a non-issue. Stifle might also be key here, dealing with EE trying to blast your Vials and B2Bs. Of course, graveyard hate is also worthwhile as a tempo tool; that and trying to Force the Manabond means they'll have a hard time digging out their Mazes. I particularly like Crypts and rarely try to hit Loam itself; countering Loam is fine tempo-wise while Crypt can be used to negate it and get rid of particularly troublesome lands in the grave for good.


Goblins: Are there any more attractive options than Pithing Needle and Blood/Magus in SB?

Mayhap Price of Progress? It's like the others. Again, gravehate and Aether Vial are your friends.


Zoo: Is Price of Progress enoough to get you by Glacial Chasm if timed right? Or do you need Blood/Magus in board?

Price should be enough, at least if you run the Wastelanded build with Knight of Reliquary (with fetches, basics and Sylvan Library, it's possible to get there manawise). Otherwise, you may want some more hate. Moon-effects seem rather poor with your general gameplan, though they might work here. Maybe SB Wastes? Not the only match they're good for. Note that gravehate is fine in stopping Glacial Chasm recursion as there's no instant way to get lands outta the grave. Your choice of gravehate could perform just fine here.


Survival: NO/Progenitus tends to meet Glacial Chasm or Tabernacle and landlock. Any plan besides Survivaling up a Magus?

Depends on your colors. Something random, crappy and techy like Guiltfeeder would kill fine through Glacial Chasm. Mostly though, I'd utilize your Survival to find that Faerie Macabre and take Chasm out in the grave again. Basics > landlock; they only have so many Ports. And yeah, Magus-plan might be doable too. You could try something bad like Realm Razer but...well, don't.


Reanimator: Is there a better plan than getting an Inkwell down at all costs, protecting it at all costs, and hoping for the best?

Sideboard in Bringer of the White Dawn and Mindslaver (totally Entombable) and Slaverlock them? Seriously, probably not. You could SB B2B if you want additional help here; that combined with, once again, fetches and basics could get there. Other than that, Leviathan+counters seems hot.


UWR Landstill: Is Limited Resources remotely viable in conjunction with Ajani Vengeant and Pithing Needle? Is there any other trick I can work with?

I guess Limited Resources works as long as you ensure they don't just Waste your lands and play more of their owns. If you can keep Manabond out of game anyways, since you'll look real silly locked to 0 lands while they drop their hand every turn, anyways. So probably not. Meddling Mage their LftL and play basics (for a change)? They still have Barbie Ring tho. So play two MMs. Maybe Tsabo's Web? Just...shut down the engine and you may have a game.

Without LftL, Waste/Crucible eats them alive, as does Ajani or any Planeswalker, really. So take out LftL. That's really all there is to it. Gravehate, MMs, friggin' Counterbalance or Chalices, whatever it takes. For Landstill, it's just a nightmare MU though as your draw engine is completely unusable, your gameplan is the same but they're about 100000 times better at doing it and so on. With Landstill, I wouldn't waste much time working on the MU as chances are no matter how much you SB, it doesn't become good. But if you SB MMs and gravehate anyways, they could incidentally help out here a lot.

[Rico Suave]

3 things:

1) Play combo. Yes, this is a perfectly legitimate option. It crushes Lands, and most of the format for that matter, and no their SB isn't going to save them.

2) A draft deck with Islands and Sphinx of Jwar Isle will beat Land.dec. Shroud win conditions, especially bigger ones that can trump Factories, will be easy to pay with Tabernacle and they have very little they can do to stop it. ProGen counts too.

3) I know people don't want to hear it, but there are a lot of decks in the format that people cling to and continue to play despite the fact the decks aren't that good. Perhaps instead of asking "what can my deck do to fight this," perhaps you should be asking yourself "why am I playing this deck?"

[KrzyMoose]

As far as Zoo goes, all you need in the SB are 2-3 Price of Progress and some number of Faerie Macabres (or whatever GY hate is more relevant in your meta). Then, all you have to do is just fetch your basic lands.

Narrow cards like Tsabo's Web, while good against Lands, aren't what you want to be playing (unless, of course, Lands is a major player in your meta). You want your sideboard cards to be as good against a large number of decks, and this is especially true in Legacy.

I really don't think the deck is that spectacular. I think that it's good against bad players, but that's about it.

[walkerdog]

3 things:

1) Play combo. Yes, this is a perfectly legitimate option. It crushes Lands, and most of the format for that matter, and no their SB isn't going to save them.

2) A draft deck with Islands and Sphinx of Jwar Isle will beat Land.dec. Shroud win conditions, especially bigger ones that can trump Factories, will be easy to pay with Tabernacle and they have very little they can do to stop it. ProGen counts too.

3) I know people don't want to hear it, but there are a lot of decks in the format that people cling to and continue to play despite the fact the decks aren't that good. Perhaps instead of asking "what can my deck do to fight this," perhaps you should be asking yourself "why am I playing this deck?"

This is an interesting point, and I think it will be highlighted more as online play grows with MTGO. A lot of pet decks are going to get hammered into oblivion by people who don't play their pet decks and have nigh-complete collections. This is not a good thing necessarily, but I fully expect to see quite a few, "Deck x is so hard/overpowered/broken, can anything beat it?" which will see replies like, "Yes other tier one decks..."

[Meister_Kai]

I would just like to point out that I made a thread called "43 What?" back a couple months ago (that I either fail at finding or that has mysteriously disappeared) in which almost everyone therein discounted my opinion that the deck was definitely a DTB. The deck has changed somewhat, but not a whole lot since then. However, its consistently done well in basically every event it places in. What has changed? Has anything changed?

EDIT: I realize that the fact that Lands is always is such a small part of any given meta game is a factor into why it wins (no one really wants to commit SB spaces to a match that they probably won't play) but I also think that what Rico says is very, very true. At SCG Indianapolis I played against Counterslivers. That is not a good deck anymore. He realized it wasn't a good deck anymore. This is all fine and good, but if Lands or other decks steal wins from people who just play pet decks when they could be playing "better" decks, well, that creates a situation.

[caiomarcos]

The price of Tabernacle alone will keep it from showing up in many, many metas.

[majikal]

The price of Tabernacle alone will keep it from showing up in many, many metas.
I think it will be more of a problem online, where Tabernacle is only a couple of tickets.

[walkerdog]

The price of Tabernacle alone will keep it from showing up in many, many metas.

I bought 4 for 2 per on MTGO. They have since risen, but not to "keep it from showing up" levels. It will get heavy play once the 2-3 missing lands are "printed" on there.

[4eak]

I'm actually a fan of Black GY hate here. Extirpate (split second, strips all Loams), Ravenous Trap (information advantage; they won't play around it as effectively as they might against Crypt/Relic), Leyline (It actually can be played in non-black decks, and it proactively prevents the Loam and Intuition/Ruins engines).

Reanimator should already have a singleton Extirpate (for Mystical), but adding a Ravenous trap or going the Leyline Route is a real possibility. Play more land yourself, perhaps even going up to 2x Island/Swamp (which I think it largely unnecessary, but against Lands it would be nice).

Zoo could possibly run (lol) Impending Disaster (I'd probably go the Magus route) with GY hate and PoP (of which you should definitely have 4x if you are worried about the match). You should even consider PoP main if you expect Lands to be that problematic. Zoo, also should consider running a few more land if it expects to battle Land.dec. Getting Port/Waste locked is too easy if you are only running a minimal manabase.





peace,
4eak

[xsockmonkeyx]

Merfolk: Are there any more attractive options than Pithing Needle and Back to Basics in SB?
Goblins: Are there any more attractive options than Pithing Needle and Blood/Magus in SB?
Zoo: Is Price of Progress enoough to get you by Glacial Chasm if timed right? Or do you need Blood/Magus in board?
Survival: NO/Progenitus tends to meet Glacial Chasm or Tabernacle and landlock. Any plan besides Survivaling up a Magus?
Reanimator: Is there a better plan than getting an Inkwell down at all costs, protecting it at all costs, and hoping for the best?
UWR Landstill: Is Limited Resources remotely viable in conjunction with Ajani Vengeant and Pithing Needle? Is there any other trick I can work with?

Telemin Performance is pretty effective if you are running blue. It's especially good in Reanimator as they already have Mystical Tutor.

[kabal]

Telemin Performance is pretty effective if you are running blue. It's especially good in Reanimator as they already have Mystical Tutor.

It has been beaten 2 different Lands players in my meta. Guy played 4 color CB with one telemin perf in the board.

[SpikeyMikey]

Yeah, no Burning Wish means this deck has a serious problem with Extirpate. Intuition lets them get around a single Faerie Macabre, but there's enough Reanimator backlack that I don't see Lands being a serious problem until things die down again. Blood Moon also shuts the deck down since it runs no basic green to utilize Ray.

[Rico Suave]

Yeah, no Burning Wish means this deck has a serious problem with Extirpate. Intuition lets them get around a single Faerie Macabre, but there's enough Reanimator backlack that I don't see Lands being a serious problem until things die down again. Blood Moon also shuts the deck down since it runs no basic green to utilize Ray.

Mox Diamond.

[Mark Sun]

UWR Landstill: Is Limited Resources remotely viable in conjunction with Ajani Vengeant and Pithing Needle? Is there any other trick I can work with?

I agree that his list was absolutely insane.

My boarding plan for N-Lands at the 5K was (List in the thread to not clutter space):

+3 Relic of Progenitus
+2 Dismantling Blow
+4 Counterbalance
+2 Faerie Macabre

-2 Firespout
-2 Humility
-4 Spell Snare
-3 Standstill


Even with that, still an absolute nightmare with a shitty proxy deck that we tested with. Macabre definitely helps, but having to remove Standstills kills the CB curve @2, which was meant to stop Loam. I don't know, I still need to fiddle with the deck. That, or I could just play UWb again. It seems that with Reanimator and Lands being problem matchups for Landstill to start with, Extirpate has suddenly increased in its in-game value. Or at least that's the way I see it.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

We're really having this conversation because of one tournament?

I'm all for discussing SB tech in the appropriate deck threads, but this reeks of Chicken Little.

[Forbiddian]

We're really having this conversation because of one tournament?

I'm all for discussing SB tech in the appropriate deck threads, but this reeks of Chicken Little.

It's because people stopped posting in the other paranoia thread.

When this dies, insert paranoia thread about Belcher.

[mchainmail]

A deck that basically can't win if you resolve a three-mana enchantment? Clearly not too absurd. (B2B or Blood Moon.)

Sure it can beat them. But aren't you doing something else while Lands answers?

/Owns 2 Tabernacles and has lands built.

[practical joke]

Reanimate should win from lands, at least I never lost against it.

Inkwell and a basic land is win.
They can only do a single thing and that is locking themselves with glacial chasm. That is easily interruptable.
After SB-ing I bring in a few extirpate and some anti-gy hate, taking out daze in the progress(on the draw) and some utility creatures.
that single extirpate can take their deck apart while you can wait for a chance with thoughtseize to take out theirs, or get a second summon going on.

It's a very good match-up for reanimate, even though extirpate and chalices make it a bit harder.

[SilverGreen]

So, this Paranoia Series are starting to become boring, don't you think too?

[Mark Sun]

So, this Paranoia Series are starting to become boring, don't you think too?

I will not be satisfied until we have a Paranoia thread dedicated to Landstill.

[Little Red Riding Hood]

I will not be satisfied until we have a Paranoia thread dedicated to Landstill.

Looks like the script for Mission Impossible 4. :laugh:

Back to topic: I played Goblins for quite some time. If you want to combat Land.dec you've all the tools you need. Gravehate + Magus/Blood Moon (Magus is the better option; clock + can't be stopped by Ray of Revelation/Krosan Grip) is often enough.
But I have seen like 2 Land.decs around here (Germany/Netherlands) during the last six months so I really don't care about that deck.

[yankeedave]

It's because people stopped posting in the other paranoia thread.

When this dies, insert paranoia thread about Belcher.

Is this a bad time to mention that Belcher is playing Moon effects more and more?

[Antonius]

I've tinkered with the lands archetype a lot and I don't understand the mad hype over this build. I mean, running intuition is hardly groundbreaking. Tolaria West is amazing, but again, not incredible new tech. Other features of the build I simply do not understand.

For example: why smokestack? Without Trinisphere or some other extremely punishing locking mechanism, it is terribly slow. The only way it's going to eliminate a Progenitus or a Leviathan is if you're already secure under a Chasm lock. And if you've reached that point, why not make gargoyles and fly over?

I do not understand Ensnaring bridge, either. I suppose it often serves as a second chasm, but if the point is to hose reanimator, isn't Noetic Scales far better?

Against storm, you need double-chalice and waste/port lock to stop them from smashing you on turn 3. After that, you need to get a THIRD chalice, set on 2, to seal the game for good--and that third chalice will also shut off your loam.
Tolaria West gives you a better chance, but it is still an incredible longshot. And even IF you can get as far as double chalice AND wastelock, there's nothing to stop them from drawing into "Pitch SSG, play blue land, tap, Hurkyll's Recall, go off in your face" before you can get the third to close it up. Storm combo doesn't even have to go off in full--they just need to cast telemin performance.
Trinisphere with Waste lock is the only way to really get them under control and you can't get trinisphere online early enough unless you have Ancient Tombs to supplement moxes.

Its probably still better to punt the matchup entirely and use those for sideboard spots on cool shit like Devastating Dreams or Geddon, on grips or on other answers to the hatred that can so easily cripple your deck.

Slaver... Whaaaat? Potential, definitely, but 10 mana is a lot to pay to kill your opponent's creatures. Especially when you can just fly over those creatures with an armada of gargoyles. Coliseum seems interesting. I'll have to try it. Mega-dredge until you find chasm? coool.

I'm surprised that Ghost Quarter isn't being run, especially in a list that has a recurring, uncounterable way to tutor for it. It is, in my opinion, far better than having a main deck Crypt. Hell, it's better than running smokestack, as quarter-lock guarantees that tabernacle will eat all creatures that get in your way.

Chris won big the same way that other lands players before him won: he played it very tight and raped a favorable metagame.

[mchainmail]

Slaver... Whaaaat? Potential, definitely, but 10 mana is a lot to pay to kill your opponent's creatures. Especially when you can just fly over those creatures with an armada of gargoyles. Coliseum seems interesting. I'll have to try it. Mega-dredge until you find chasm? coool.


Slaver lets the deck win in a quicker amount of time than traditional kills; I watched a Lands! player finish 2-0-3 (yes, three draws) in the course of a tournament.



I'm surprised that Ghost Quarter isn't being run, especially in a list that has a recurring, uncounterable way to tutor for it. It is, in my opinion, far better than having a main deck Crypt. Hell, it's better than running smokestack, as quarter-lock guarantees that tabernacle will eat all creatures that get in your way.

Chris won big the same way that other lands players before him won: he played it very tight and raped a favorable metagame.

I really like running Ghost Quarter as well, because oftentimes decks only have four basics and you can draw concessions by getting it out.

[practical joke]

Ensaring bridge does for 1 not hose reanimate, it's considered a minor inconvenience.
Lands. doesn't often have a lot of cards in hand when they don't need to. This way they can shut down 4/4 angel tokens, progenitus, possibly tarmogoyfs, in the end even all goblins and merfolk due to excess lords. This way they can keep free the mazes for the lesser creatures.

A mindslaver lock requires 13!! mana, but it's an instant win. You won't draw cards and can take over their deck untill they are decked out. Also a single activation can kill combo/dredge and can destroy any control deck's gameplan.

[Eldariel]

Slaver also ensures inevitability where many decks with sufficient numbers of basics to only be bothered by Ports have previously been able to just deal with Maze, pay for Tabernacle and plain win in the midgame. If Slaver-lock gets going, it's all over. And setting it up with Intuition is quite easy. And yeah, winning fast is a boon too.

[Maveric78f]

This deck has a lot of flaws: somebody said extirpate. There are a lot. In France, this kind of deck is very well known since it has been played for 3 years now (I posted it in the Eternal Garden thread). It plays only 35/36 lands, with no Manabond but with Ghost Quarter, Sensei's Divining Top, Mox Diamon, Crucible of Worlds and Crop Rotation. It's far less graveyard dependant and Crop Rotation offers very good instant effects that lack to the 43-landish version presented in this thread.

Just to say that the only person who played this deck in Madrid is Patrick Bouvier and he did 36. His list for record.



Spell: 26
4 crucible of worlds
4 exploration
4 intuition
4 mox diamond
4 crop rotation
3 sensei's divination top
1 life from the loam
1 engineered explosives
1 zuran orb

Lands: 35
4 mishra's factory
4 wasteland
4 rishadan port
4 maze of ith
4 tropical island
3 city of traitor
4 Misty Rainforest
1 barbarian ring
1 The tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 taiga
1 forest
1 glacial chasm
1 ghost quarter
1 academy ruins
1 horizon canopy

SB:
3 krosan grip
1 Nature's claim
4 chalice of the void
4 trinisphere
2 pithing needle
1 Bokuja bog

He got 3 byes

Ronde 4 : Landstill 4CC
4-0

Ronde 5 : Probant
5-0

Ronde 6 : Zoo
6-0

Ronde 7 : Merfolk splash Faery (hard MU)
6-1

Ronde 8 : MonoU control Energy Field (B2B versus Krosan Grip loss)
6-2

Ronde 9 : Merfolk (hard MU)
7-2, Day 2.

Ronde 10 : Boros
8-2

Ronde 11 : Wstacks
9-2

Ronde 12 : ANT (very difficult)
9-3

Ronde 13 : Probant.
10-3

Ronde 14 : 40 Lands!
11-3

Ronde 15 : Tempo-Thresh
12-3

Ronde 16 : Painter 4CC (impossible MU)
12-4

Ronde 17 : 43 Lands!
13-4

[FoolofaTook]

So, this Paranoia Series are starting to become boring, don't you think too?

The Legacy meta is speeding up fairly dramatically over the last 6 months or more. We're moving towards what we would have considered Vintage speeds not too long ago. That kind of change usually produces culture shock. It's really easy to drop a 5/6 Goyf on turn 3 right now and lose anyway because the opponent either has you locked out in other ways, is about to go off for lethal or has something much bigger down on the table opposite you.

[Kuma]

While we're discussing ways to stop Land.dec, Bant Survival beats the crap out of anything Loam based. The only thing you have to watch out for is Glacial Chasm, but your graveyard hate can answer it.

[nitewolf9]

Counterbalance decks are also very well equipped to fight Lands, especially those packing NO->Progenitus. Bant builds with lots of basics are especially difficult for Lands to beat.

[Aggro_zombies]

We're really having this conversation because of one tournament?

I'm all for discussing SB tech in the appropriate deck threads, but this reeks of Chicken Little.
This thread was probably created as a subtle joke to poke fun at the Reanimator Paranoia thread.

[SpikeyMikey]

Mox Diamond.

Ok, so in roughly 1 out of 4 games, they'll have a solution to the moon in their opening. That's not really a game plan for beating a card that completely hoses you.

[Julian23]

From what I know the chances of having a 4of in your oppoening hand are around 50%. I'm sure someone knows the exact number.


While we're discussing ways to stop Land.dec, Bant Survival beats the crap out of anything Loam based. The only thing you have to watch out for is Glacial Chasm, but your graveyard hate can answer it.

I can confirm this. It's all about Kira + the occasional Iona on green.

[Forbiddian]

This thread was probably created as a subtle joke to poke fun at the Reanimator Paranoia thread.

If it started out as a joke, the joke was long since owned by some serious business.

Re: [Paranoia] Stopping Ironic Thread Titles From Making Source Members Look Dumb

[FoolofaTook]

From what I know the chances of having a 4of in your oppoening hand are around 50%. I'm sure someone knows the exact number.

40% assuming no mulligans. With a few basic lands tossed into the mix you're over 50% to have some protection from even a turn 0 Blood Moon against you.

[Rico Suave]

Ok, so in roughly 1 out of 4 games, they'll have a solution to the moon in their opening. That's not really a game plan for beating a card that completely hoses you.

The person I quoted said there was no chance of beating Blood Moon.

25% of having an answer in their opener is a lot more impressive. And Mox Diamond + Loam in the opener means they can dig pretty hard for an answer.

I think that's a lot different from what has been said before about it being a complete hoser.

[Brad Herbig]

I actually played against Chris in the 3rd round of the swiss with a modified version of TES. I beat him first game, no problem. However, second and third games he was able to not only slow me down with chalice, but wastelock and ported me out of any mana, and then slow rolled me with factories while I tried to dig for a land and a SSG to play my Echoing truth to even have a chance of going off against chalices at 0 and 1. The deck was definitely really good. I think there was one play mistake 2nd game that I made that may have costed me the game, but it was still tough once he got going.

[Aggro_zombies]

If it started out as a joke, the joke was long since owned by some serious business.

Re: [Paranoia] Stopping Ironic Thread Titles From Making Source Members Look Dumb
Deck of the Day: SRS BZNESS



All you have to do to beat lands is take out Life from the Loam. Losing Life from the Loam to, say, Extirpate, makes the deck [i]a lot more manageable.

[Pulp_Fiction]

IMOP that list is far inferior to the new Eternal Garden lists. However, decks like this are very difficult to play right, and have so many viable options at any point in time, that play mistakes would be all to common by someone who doesn't know the deck inside and out. But Garden is just better, the lack of Crucible in the main and Burning Wish is just bad. I also don't see any Crop Rotation .... this card wins games and is a lot easier to cast than Intuition. I also think Rotation is superior to Intuition in that it deals with whatever you need on the spot, especially against Goblins when you Rotate into Tabernacle or stupid 5/5 flyers that become lost in a Maze :)

As far as beating it:

Price of Progress
Moons
Play combo
Back to Basics
Grave hate + hand destruction
Meddling Mage
Jotun Grunt

All these cause serious problems, especially when you aren't running Wish as an answer all and Crucible to bait the grave hate.

[Atwa]

I don't see much of the problems with Garden. I run Wish into Rolling Earthquake to deal with pesty creatures, deal with multiple Magus of the Moons and clear the board against tribal decks. I even use it to finish off opponents when they manage to restabilise.

Circle of Protection helps against Price of Progress (and Progenitus) and I've started to test out maindeck enchantment hate for Back to Basics and Blood Moon. Crypt and Relic aren't that much of a problem, however if they start to go rampant in the meta, you could always start to board Null Rod, it helps with the combo matchup too.

I agree with everyone that Lands is a very powerfull deck, and I sure as hell have to agree with Pulp Fiction Eternal Garden is Lands 2.0. I like the innovation with Intuition, however I've been playing that card in Garden and even cut it from the list because it was underpreforming. I might take another look at that recent list and see what else I can learn from t though.

[DuxDucis]

Another narrow card suggestion Wheel of Sun and Moon :laugh:

[Arsenal]

It doesn't seem that narrow to me. Assuming you can reliably cast it on Turn 2, it appears to cripple Ichorid/Reanimator/Loam decks pretty well; it won't shut them out completely, but it will slow them down enough so that (a.) they cannot execute their gameplan in the manner that they chose and (b.) it buys you time to win or shut down their plan B.

[MattH]

The most hilarious answer I know of is Mesmeric Orb, although that can be blown up by EE.

Cranial Extraction is not terrible, although I wonder if Extirpate isn't just better.