[Deck] The Gate

[AlterEgo]

I don't have a real sideboard *plan*, which may be a part of my underwhelming performance. When I build the sideboard, I just think about what I MIGHT run into that causes me problems. In this tournament I expected Reanimator (there were 3 of them) and the Jace-deck. I figured the Hexmages might be useful against Jace (obvious), Dredge (at least to remove Bridges) and any matchup that I would want to take out removal (e.g. Solidarity)

In the tournament I just took out what seemed unuseful and in what I wanted more of. I just did this by feeling - never thinking too much.

My matches were against Bant (#1), Bant w/Reliquary, Depths/Nought, PainterStill (#5) and New Horizons (#7).
What would you board? Mostly I took out Faeries (Macabre AND Blossom) or Duresses for the fourth Edict, Inquisition and Needles. I never took in Smothers or Hexmages.

@Swords - there are three reasons:
1st, as I wrote somewhere above, I only have one Jitte and the lifegain is necessary to balance Bob's and Blossom's loss
2nd, SoLaS gives protection from the most common removal in Legacy: StoP
3rd, the ability to recur Removal (Gatekeeper) is imo more useful than the chance to draw into it.

P.S.: Kenn ich Dich?

[Chubu!]

So... in light of the recent banning of Mystical Tutor, let's pretend that ANT and Reanimator cease to be Decks to Beat.

How does the decklist change? Is MacFaerie still a good choice for the maindeck? If not, what is the best replacement? How about the board? Can we cut combo hate in favor of more anti-zoo tools? Do we need more anti-zoo tools?

Frankly, I'm not ready to say that ANT and Reanimator are going to cease to be DTB; I'll believe it when I see it. However, I'm testing all the same. I'd love to run Jotun Grunt in the Faerie Macabre slot, except... oh yeah, it's white.

Other cards I've tried in the slot: Fleshbag Marauder, Oona's Prowler, Bitterblossom. I haven't played enough matches yet to make a judgement on what I think of the cards. I'm quite sure I'd like the slot to remain dedicated to some sort of a threat, because I feel that the bare minimum for threats in this deck is 18. I'd prefer to run 20.

As for the New Horizons matchup, I feel like it's favorable, but not as favorable as the Thresh m/u. Perish out of the board is golden in this one, especially if they board in Worm Harvest to try and neuter our edict effects.

I'd love to hear what others think of the matters mentioned.

[jrsthethird]

I mentioned this earlier, but Grim Discovery can be really good late game. Although there are only 4 returnable lands, you're likely to have drawn one of them previously (or if you run Stronghold it gives you a chance to get it back if it was Wasted). You can return several ETB creatures: (Gatekeeper, Fleshbag, Phyrexian Rager, Faerie Macabre), or a Nighthawk that traded with a Goyf. I would suggest runnign 2 since it's fairly useless (or a bad Raise Dead) in the early game (without fetches).

[makochman]

I mentioned this earlier, but Grim Discovery can be really good late game. Although there are only 4 returnable lands, you're likely to have drawn one of them previously (or if you run Stronghold it gives you a chance to get it back if it was Wasted). You can return several ETB creatures: (Gatekeeper, Fleshbag, Phyrexian Rager, Faerie Macabre), or a Nighthawk that traded with a Goyf. I would suggest runnign 2 since it's fairly useless (or a bad Raise Dead) in the early game (without fetches).

Grim Discovery does not fit this deck's theme of beatdown. And if you're running Volrath's Stronghold you don't need Grim Discovery.

I do think that 1-2x Volrath's Stronghold might be good though, although it would possibly necessitate 2-3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth. Volrath's Stronghold should be good against Zoo and random 3+ color decks as they generally don't play Wasteland.

[linux-ll-]

Because of banning Mystical Tutor, Faerie Macabre isn´t that important. Thus I´m searching for alternatives.
What about splashing White? We would be able to play cards like Stoneforge Mystic to get Jitte, Vindicate, Swords to Plowshare/Path to Exile, Jotun Grunts and some sideboardcards. The manabase should absolutly handle it.

[Michael Keller]

Because of banning Mystical Tutor, Faerie Macabre isn´t that important. Thus I´m searching for alternatives.
What about splashing White? We would be able to play cards like Stoneforge Mystic to get Jitte, Vindicate, Swords to Plowshare/Path to Exile, Jotun Grunts and some sideboardcards. The manabase should absolutly handle it.

How do you figure that Mystical Tutor's banning will render Faerie Macabre any less effective?

Last time I checked Entomb was still legal...

[linux-ll-]

Sure it is legal, but I think Reanimator lost a lot of power because of the lost of mystical tutor. I don´t think that it will be play so often anymore but time will tell.

[sporenfrosch1411]

srsly guys, go to page 1 and see why there probably wont be another color in "TheGate"....

@Faerie
Its no less effective now. U can still kick reanimator´s targets, goyfs countings, dregdes dredgers, loam´s lands, tresh´s trash and on and on and on !!!

@Reanimator
Yes, i also think many ppl will abandon their deck, but it is still a good Deck, most likely not Tier1 anymore, but still good imo :)

[Chubu!]

As far as splashing a color goes, every time I have tried, it leads to further changes to account for the inherent weaknesses of being multicolor, which leads to further changes, to shore up those weaknesses, etc. The end result is that I end up with a very different build that does not belong in this thread.

As for the future of maindeck Faerie, I'm not pulling it yet. Survival is still a valid archetype, as is dredge. Reanimator may continue to be a Deck to Beat, even without Mystical Tutor. Lands needs the Loam engine up and running to really be at full gas. As far as using Faerie to shrink goyf, Knight of the Reliquary, or Terravore, or remove threshold, I can think of only a handful of times I have used it for any of those purposes, but it's a potential use, nonetheless.

The New Horizons matchup is very winnable, and quite favorable after sideboarding. Perish hits all of their threats, unless they are running something like New Jace, which I have only seen once. (And I lost to it.) Folk is also very winnable, especially with E-Plagues coming in out of the board. Dredge and Reanimator are winnable, barring any Turn 1 blowout-type stuff. Combo was winnable (and stil willl be, if it sticks around despite the banning of MT.) The matchup that hurts bad is Zoo, and it is, consequentially, most likely going undergo a rise in popularity starting soon. (My opinion, obviously.) That is the matchup I will be testing out sideboard cards, in order to better shore up. Lifegain and creature kill are two things that black provides that Zoo doesn't like to see. Maybe a return of Spinning Darkness to the board... we'll see.

[Michael Keller]

As far as splashing a color goes, every time I have tried, it leads to further changes to account for the inherent weaknesses of being multicolor, which leads to further changes, to shore up those weaknesses, etc. The end result is that I end up with a very different build that does not belong in this thread.

As for the future of maindeck Faerie, I'm not pulling it yet. Survival is still a valid archetype, as is dredge. Reanimator may continue to be a Deck to Beat, even without Mystical Tutor. Lands needs the Loam engine up and running to really be at full gas. As far as using Faerie to shrink goyf, Knight of the Reliquary, or Terravore, or remove threshold, I can think of only a handful of times I have used it for any of those purposes, but it's a potential use, nonetheless.

The New Horizons matchup is very winnable, and quite favorable after sideboarding. Perish hits all of their threats, unless they are running something like New Jace, which I have only seen once. (And I lost to it.) Folk is also very winnable, especially with E-Plagues coming in out of the board. Dredge and Reanimator are winnable, barring any Turn 1 blowout-type stuff. Combo was winnable (and stil willl be, if it sticks around despite the banning of MT.) The matchup that hurts bad is Zoo, and it is, consequentially, most likely going undergo a rise in popularity starting soon. (My opinion, obviously.) That is the matchup I will be testing out sideboard cards, in order to better shore up. Lifegain and creature kill are two things that black provides that Zoo doesn't like to see. Maybe a return of Spinning Darkness to the board... we'll see.

The New Horizons match is laughable at best. I ended up playing against Dave Price of all people twice in the same tournament and won both rounds rather handily. There is just a plethora of hate and it just ends up being a nightmare for that deck, even before you consider siding.

[dropkickdude]

Howdy, I'm joining these forums to discuss this deck. A buddy of mine saw this thread and pointed me to it. I readthe initial decklist and went "that is literally a collection of my favorite acrds, all thrown into a deck together!" I read through everything and came up with my own list and am looking for thoughts.

Creatures:
3x Bloodghast
4x Gatekeeper of Malakir
4x Vampire Nighthawk
3x Abyssal Persecutor
2x Tombstalker

Equipables:
2x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of Light and Shadow

Kill Spells:
4x Smother
4x Diabolic Edict

Discard:
4x Inquisition of Kozilek / Thoughtseize
3x Cabal Therapy

Draw:
4x Phyrexian Arena

Land:
20x Swamp
2x Bojuka Bog

Sideboard:
4x Hymn to Tourach
3x Faerie Macabre
4x Sadistic Sacrament
4x Leyline of the Void

I haven't had a chance to test my list yet, but I've goldfished a ton and come up with some thoughts. First off, Bloodghast. I'm a former Pox player, and I fell in love with this little guy. Sure he can't block, but he makes a great Jitte carrier. Equip and swing without fear of blockers, Jitte gets it's counters and your next land brings him back for more. next, Tombstalker. he's a big guy with evasion that can potentially only cost BB. He was a house for me in Pox, but I'm liking him less and less here because I'm not filling my GY fast enough for my liking. If I end up taking him out the Arenas will convert over to Bobs (I'm liking that idea the more I think about it). Which brings me to my next point, Arenas. I've loved Phyrexian Arena in past decks, but here it always seems like I'd rather play out my hand before I end up playing it. It seems like I'd be better off running Infernal Contract or Sign in Blood for a more reloading effect as opposed to Arena's passive CA effect. My discard spell of choice fluctuates. At first it was Duress, as I feared the lifeloss from Thoughtseize. I decided that I needed a T1 answer for Lackey or Cursecatcher, and I thought that Inquisition sounded better than Innocent Blood as it gave me some flexibility at the cost of needing to be used preemptively. I'm now thinking that I may be able get away with Thoughtseize. Moving along to my sideboard. I know that my main deck is bad G1 against anything but creature-based decks, so I wanted to make a transitional sideboard that let me trade out my kill spells for control elements.

I'm hoping we can generate some discussion as to card selection, as this deck really has me excited. Let me know what you guys think.

[Nekrataal]

Went to a tourney with the "standard" list except packing 2 Smother main and 2 SB. They were relevant the whole day against manlands and other flashed or vialed in stuff. I won against Canadian Thresh and Goblins and lost to a BWg Planeswalker.dec and 2 times Combo (Dredge, Donate/Illusions) mostly because none of the Hate cards like GY hate or Extirpates showed up. I wasn't too satisfied with the last 3 matches because the possible interactions from the deck was almost 0. I felt helpless because the deck has almost no draw and no filter options and if you get a mediocre opening hand you have to take mulligans to ensure you get any hate (which I did without any success). Well , this is nothing new from the theory of the deck but it is always different if you really experience it 3 times in a row after a very pleasant start.

[linux-ll-]

What is about adding Sensei Divinig Top and some Fetchies for a better card draw?

[sporenfrosch1411]

Especially when u play Confidants, i would tend to add Top´s too. Its just an awesome combination - u filter for 1 and often enough just put the land top, leaving ur opponent in the unknowing zone about what else u draw and loosing zero life :)

But i wonder.... what could be cut for let´s say 3 Top´s (which would be my thought considering the number of top´s needed)
Fetchies....hm y actually Fetchies + Top is just "the good stuff" but ur also more vulnerable to stifle n shit :/
I tend to believe many more Mask/Stifle-Nought´s will show up in the Future....i´d just add tops without fetchies, to prevent having a weak spot vs ***** and Horizons and all that other stifling decks ;)


edit:

WHY does the forum block T R E S H and censors it with stars ?!?!? like this : *****

[Hawdes]

WHY does the forum block T R E S H and censors it with stars ?!?!? like this : *****

Because it's actually called Thresh... derive from Threshold, since it's the ability Nimble Mongoose has and it's in that deck. And I believe it played a lot more threshold creatures before back in the days.

[sporenfrosch1411]

hm i still dont get why it gets censored with that incorrect spelling :D
Is there some translation thingy im missing or some slang ^^ ?

[Chubu!]

What is about adding Sensei Divinig Top and some Fetchies for a better card draw?

Top is great. I like card quality. Thing is, running top in this deck is a bit like castling in chess. It sets you up for some better plays down the road, but costs you tempo to get the Top down initially. When I tested Top in the deck, I often found myself sitting on a Top that I drew in my opening hand for several turns, because I could not spare the tempo loss to play it. Decks like tribal aggro and Zoo can end the game very quickly if not disrupted in the first few turns of the game. In order to play "catch up," I feel as if the deck would need something to enable you exploit the card quality advantage provided by top, without losing tempo and dying an untimely death. Basically, adding Top pushes the deck in a more controllish direction, which then wants other cards which complement and exploit Top, in order to shore up the control role. In turn, some of the more aggro-ish cards must be cut, in order to make room, etc. The end result is a much different deck.

However, by all means test top plus fetches, if you think it's worth a shot. I'm interested to hear what you feel after testing, even if you end up totally disagreeing with me.

[sporenfrosch1411]

I Pretty much agree:

VS Zoo i couldn´t cast the Top, ever. It was in my hand for 2 whole games -.-
VS Combo i would have been to slow if i had cast it, so pretty much the same like vs Zoo
VS Landstill....it owned. Srsly, i had Confi + Top and just had such a good game, controlling my Library like i was playing Blue :D
VS NewHorizon i just casted it first turn, which was OK.....but just because i had no Duress/Therapy to play ;) 2nd Game i did that again, and won again, but im not sure if it was rly the Top who won my game or my godlike Draw....which leads me back to the Top...... *confused* :D

The thing is, i found a turn 2/3 Top to be fine, but u just rarely can cast it Turn1. Also, cutting the Diabolic Edict sent me in some trouble sometimes.
I was thinking about cutting 2 Vampire Nighthawks for the Tops, but havent tried it yet.

[dropkickdude]

I don't like Top here. Maybe because I don't run Bobs, but I don't think we can handle the tempo loss personally. For those of you running Phyrexian Arenas (or anyone really), what are your thoughts on Graveborn Muse? She costs 4, but she gets straight nasty in multiples and ups the threat count as well.

[sporenfrosch1411]

4 Abyssal Persecutor
4 Dark Confidant
2 Faerie Macabre
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
2 Bloodghast

4 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Bitterblossom
3 Innocent Blood
4 Hymn to Tourach
1 Umezawa´s Jitte
1 Sword of Light and Shadow

17 Swamp
4 Wasteland
1 Urborg Tomb of Yawgmoth


So, pretty much the so far standard list with one exception
Cut out 2 Faeries for:
Bloodghast -> I think he fits very well in the theme, he can provide card advantage by returning and is ok to sac in Innocent Blood :) When he comes back, there will be a Jitte or Sword waiting for him, which then makes him a huge threat

What do you think :) ?

[Hopo]

hm i still dont get why it gets censored with that incorrect spelling :D
Is there some translation thingy im missing or some slang ^^ ?

Because it's irritating to see people misspell a simple word. It's not that difficult, try it.

[sporenfrosch1411]

Because it's irritating to see people misspell a simple word. It's not that difficult, try it.
Funny board, i like that :)

But, back to Topic:

What do you think about adding those 2 Bloodghasts? Playable? Reasonable?


Also:
What do you think can be added to the sideboard to be a good runner vs MuD. I think it will show up often in my Meta :/
Is there anything more effective than Gate to Phyrexia :( ? Or do you think needles do all the needed work?

[linux-ll-]

I like the idea of playing Blooghast instead of the Faeris...
I´m playing two Oblivion Stone for the MUD/Enchantress/Slow Control with shit like Humility,Moat etc. and I´m really happy with it.
These decks are so slowly that you should be able cast and activate O-Stone.

Why are you playing 1 Sword of Light and Shadow over a secound Jitte?

I´m testing IoK instead of Hymn to Tourach... don´t know which one is better.

[sporenfrosch1411]

The Sword (of Light and Shadow) protects from Swords (to Plowshares) and it pumps up so hard..... the 4/5 Nighthawk is just awesome :) giving u 7 Life and a creature from your grave with just one Attack

Rather than the Stone i´d play Nevinraels Disk, way better imo....but a nice idea afterall.... i think i´ll add 2 or 3 to the sideboard
But im worried that it´s way too slow and too mana-intensive ( i mean cmon....cc4 is tough) :/
Once the Staxx or the Tanglewire is on the board....im in some kinda trouble :)

[Chubu!]

Rather than the Stone i´d play Nevinraels Disk, way better imo....but a nice idea afterall.... i think i´ll add 2 or 3 to the sideboard

I went to Oblivion stone out of the board after falling victim to Jace, TMS a few times. I'm not a huge fan of O-Stone or Nev's Disk, but I figure, since I need to run one or the other, I may as well be as thorough as possible. This deck doesn't have any other way to answer walkers, unless one runs either Pithing Needle or Vampire Hexmage in the board. I can't spare the slots for either, so O-Stone it is for me.

[Lorgalis]

This deck can use Phyrexian Tower as a 1-2 to provide additional uncounterable outs to the demon...

[Osmin]

Made it to top4 at local 14-man tournament. Many people went to National Champ instead of Legacy))
I used this build:
18 Swamp
4 Wasteland

4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Dark Confidant
3 Abyssal Persecutor
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir

2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
3 Diabolic Edict
3 Bitterblossom
3 Innocent Blood
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Duress

// Sideboard
4 Pithing Needle
3 Engineered Plague
4 Ravenous Trap
3 Perish
1 Free slot

Card choices: 3 Persecutor because I own only 3. SoFI instead of 4th Persecutor, SoLS should be better.
Sideboard: I just picked cards, that I had))

Round 1
2-1 against Merfolks
G1 he didn't have any counters and I simple overrun him with Persecutor.
G2 I see only lands, 2 blossoms and some removal
G3 I started with inquisition, saw Vial, Standstill and 2 Lord of Atlantis, named Vial. Opponent was surprised, but next turn I casted Cabal Therapy naming Lords :)

Round 2
2-1 against CounterRebels with Training Grounds
G1 I kept bad hand and he was faster
G2 and G3 I don't remember, but discard and Persecutor ruled.

Round 3
0-2 against 4c Survival
Both games he quickly set up Survival and I didn't side in Needles. Also in G2 I really was manaflooded, but I don't think I could win either.

Round 4
2-1 against Goblins
G1 First turn Lackey and I didn't have Innocent Blood.
G2 First turn Cabal Therapy into Lackey :) And then 2 Hymns.
G3 After his attack with 3 Piledrivers I cast second Plague :)
I think 4th round I win only due to luck.

So I am very satisfied with this deck.

[workingdude]

I went 3-1 at a tournament of 23 (Lost to my undefeated friend, to whom I loaned TES). Ended up 6th because of tiebreakers, and there was no cut.


18 Swamp
4 Wasteland

4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Shriekmaw
Nantuko Shade
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Deathmark
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Bitterblossom
4 Phyrexian Arena
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Sword of Light and Shadow
Syphon Life

SB:
3 Pithing Needle
4 Planar Void
Syphon Life
3 Engineered Plague
2 Extirpate
Damnation
Tendrils of Corruption


As you can see I opted to do a few changes. First I took out Abyssal Persecutor and replaced it with Shriekmaw. I was able to get an evoke shriekmaw with Sword of Light and Shadow loop going, and against reanimator, was trying to dump it in the yard as soon as possible.

Inquistion of Kozilek + Thoughtseize because since I have no Persecutor, there really is not a big reason to run Cabal Therapy.

Phyrexian Arena instead of Dark Confidant, because I need my draw to stick.

Syphon Life for some late game lifegain as I draw into the bulk of my lands (especially off Arena). I loved this card and may include more in my next draft.

Nantuko Shade may be replaced, and I want to bring in some Bojuka Bog in the mainboard. I faced no one with green or white creatures so Deathmark will probably be replaced next time.

SB:
Planar Void makes so much sense in this deck. Other than Syphon Life/SoLaS for me, and perhaps Therapy for the other players, we are completely independent from the graveyard. Bojuka Bog in the MD would clean up any cards that might slip in before you drop it.

Syphon Life and Tendrils of Corruption are for lifegain against aggro. These spots are probably replaceable.



Round 1
2-1 vs Mono Red Burn

Game 1: I see all 3 Deathmarks while he is able to burn me out after a turn 2 hymn.
Game 2: I Thoughtseize him, take Chain Lightning and am able to keep 2 nighthawks on the board to beat for the win.
Game 3: I Inquisition him, take Sulfuric Vortex. Nighthawk wins the game again.

Round 2
2-1 vs Mono Red Sligh (This player was not very experienced and made plays like bolting BB tokens. He won the first game due to some bad deathmark draws)

Round 3
0-2 vs TES

Game 1: I turn 2 Hymn and get Ad Nauseam and Brainstorm. My pressure is far too slow. He combos off turn 4ish by Burning Wish for Ill-Gotten Gains then getting back Ad Nauseam to combo off.

Game 2: I turn 1 Planar Void. Turn 2 Hymn getting chrome mox and brainstorm. Turn 3 Engineered Plague for Goblins. Turn 4 land nighthawk which he burning wishes for flame slash to kill. Then he is able to combo off with Ad Nauseam after a hellbent Infernal Tutor.

Round 4
2-0 vs Reanimator (he chose to run Bogardan Hellkites over Iona, sac effects and the cards out the sideboard were too much)

I was able to play mainly against the underdeveloped part of the meta and therefore deathmarks were completely useless. At the top tables of Round 4 I saw Bant countertop, Landstill, Goblins, and TES. So my testing of this deck is a little incomplete.

[dropkickdude]

Man Siege Gang Commander is a tough beat... I was running 4x Smother and 4x Diabolic Edict alongside 4x Gatekeeper, and thus I had no way of dealing with him outside of trading (which is rough when he comes down T2 off a Lackey). I'm rethinking Smother as my targeted removal slot simply because SGC owned me time after time. I'm thinking Vendetta might have a slot here.

On another note: What are some thoughts on SoFI vs SoLS here? SoFI is better against Goblins and Merfolk due to the protection, and can be really good against Zoo as well by negating their burn. It also ups the damage count and provides some nasty CA. SoLS gives our creatures some prtection vs non-burn spot removal, and is extremely good in the mirror. It gives us some (often much needed) lifegain and allows us to trade creatures without fear. Overall I like SoFI, but I'm a CA nut and therefor bias. I'd love to get someone else's thoughts.

[imanujakku]

Man Siege Gang Commander is a tough beat... I was running 4x Smother and 4x Diabolic Edict alongside 4x Gatekeeper, and thus I had no way of dealing with him outside of trading (which is rough when he comes down T2 off a Lackey). I'm rethinking Smother as my targeted removal slot simply because SGC owned me time after time. I'm thinking Vendetta might have a slot here.




On another note: What are some thoughts on SoFI vs SoLS here? SoFI is better against Goblins and Merfolk due to the protection, and can be really good against Zoo as well by negating their burn. It also ups the damage count and provides some nasty CA. SoLS gives our creatures some prtection vs non-burn spot removal, and is extremely good in the mirror. It gives us some (often much needed) lifegain and allows us to trade creatures without fear. Overall I like SoFI, but I'm a CA nut and therefor bias. I'd love to get someone else's thoughts.

what about doomblade ?

the swords are nice but too slow for me. if i had to go with an equip to back up jitte it would probably be basiilik collar. this turns your faeries and gatekeepers into real threat.

which bring me to gatekeepers which after playing a lot this past week in mtgo i find to be a subpar card. it seems like card advantage but you are essentially playing 3 mana for in the best case scenario a fusion of two cards that would never make your deck on their own. grizzly bear and a 3 mana chainers edict. at best i think gatekeeper is 1-2 slot utility back up to diabloic edict/innocent blood in decks that run percy not the star of the show.

the hippy and nantuko are still what i want to see early. they may not be the houses they once but they draw out your opponents best cards. the same goes for confidant. he may not live very long but the amount of pressure he puts on your opponent to find a solution is well worth it imo and he carries jitte whch is something the arena cannot do.

[dropkickdude]

I honestly forgot that Vendetta was nonblack... FAIL! But anyways, I've been wanting to vary my kill spells' mana costs, as all of them get shut off by Chalice @ 2. Any suggestions?

I run a single sword alongside a pair of Jittes. You're right, Jitte is a house, but I want 3 equipables and running 3 Jittes leaves me drawing multiples far too often.

Gatekeeper is a house imho. BBB = Cruel Edict + Bear = VCA.

I don't play Hippie or Nantuko. I almost always either tap out for discard or a beater, or leave my mana open for a kill spell (or bluff), so I don't think I like Shade here. Hippie is just too slow without DRit, and I don't like that here either. This deck isn't about explosive aggro like the more traditional MBA, the Gate is about controlling the board, at least mine is. I'm looking to capitalize on the aggro-filled meta right now post Mystical Tutor getting banned.

[Chubu!]

What are some thoughts on SoFI vs SoLS here?

Although I love both of the swords, in a general sense, I do not run either in my build of the deck. Running a 1-of without a tutor such as Stoneforge Mystic (who, umm... doesn't play well in a monoblack deck) means I draw into the sword so inconsistently as to make it an undependable card. I run three jittes because 1.) I want to see it in a good number of games, and 2.) The first one often gets forced, legend-killed, Pridemaged, etc... (I also like legend-killing their jitte, btw.)

Vs. Zoo, I do not think that either of the swords is the answer. In fact, I have been siding out one of my jittes and all of my Bobs vs. Zoo, lately. Equipment, while devastating to Zoo once you get it up and running, is often too slow, and can crush your tempo (which is already vastly outmatched by theirs) when you go to equip, and they bolt or path in response.

If I had to pick one of the swords, I would go with SoLS, because many of our creatures are already out of burn range due to its +2/+2, and it handles the other two common colors of removal like a champ. Granted, card draw and free shocks are hard to pass up, but it feels a bit win-more to me, given that we have E-plague to help with tribal aggro. I'd also add that RB goblins, which I used to see in my local meta, isn't nearly as fearful of SoFI as the mono-red builds.

[sporenfrosch1411]

What do you think are the Pro´s and Con´s of replacing Confidant with Phyrexian Arena?
I currently consider swapping them, thinking "Arena´s cost me less life, and Confi will ALLWAYS be handled the turn i play it, while the Arenas mostly will be handled only Post-Board "

Just for shits and giggles, ill throw in my recent list:

4 Abyssal Persecutor
4 Dark Confidant
2 Faerie Macabre
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Vampire Nighthawk
2 Bloodghast

2 Bitterblossom
3 Innocent Blood
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy

2 Umezawa´s Jitte
19 Swamp
3 Wasteland

SB:
4 Deathmark
2 Perish
3 Nevinrael´s Disk
3 Pithing Needle
2 Faerie Macabre
1 ____________


Ps:
I abandonend the Swords, they are just too expensive (mancost) and jitte just seems to be the best deal in a way.... What im concerned about atm...i feel like i play too less removal, not sure here :)

[linux-ll-]

I´m playing Dark Cofidant because he can carry the Jitte and beats.
With 10 cc1 Discardspells (4x Duress, 4x Cabal Therapy, 2x Inquisitions of K.) I´m mostly able to protect him a few turns.

What´s about adding Fetchies for Bloodghast. They can recover him twice. But we would take 1 damage and Stifle becomes stronge.

[sporenfrosch1411]

I think just to be able to sac the Ghast twice into lets say Innocent Blood / Cabal Therapy, thats not worth giving all the Thresh/Horizon / Random Stifle - Players out there the chance to disrupt my game ;)
I think Ghast is fine supported by having 22 Lands :)

About Confidant:
Yes the beatstick ability.... i kinda overlook that a lot lately.

[Khurtz]

Here is my list that went 4-0 (1st place) at the RIT tournament in Rochester, NY this past Saturday while beating several high grade decks in the process:

1cc//

4 Duress
4 Innocent Blood
3 Cabal Therapy

2cc//

4 Dark Confidant
3 Gatekeeper of Malakir (I like to think of him more of a 3 drop though)
3 Bitterblossom
3 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Smother

3cc//

4 Vampire Nighthawk
3 Faerie Macabre

4cc//

4 Abyssal Persecutor

// Lands
X17 [A] Swamp
X4 [TE] Wasteland

SB:

3 Mindbreak Trap
3 Disfigure
2 Gate to Phyrexia
2 Oblivion Stone
2 Executioner's Capsule
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Faerie Macabre

I might be making a few slight modifications to the SB for this deck however the mainboard functioned almost flawlessly so I probably won't be making any changes.

I found that although 3 Bitterblossom seems high and there are several people here who cut down to 2, you can usually count on at least one of them to get countered or nuked and since this card wins games it's worth including a backup.

Most of the deck is pretty much cookie cutter off of Hollywood's list so I won't really include explanations unless you want to know why I include a certain quantity of such and such a card.

In regards to SB:

Mindbreak trap: I'm paranoid about the combo matchup however since combo appears to be dead in my meta I may actually be cutting these for something else

Disfigure: I included this to improve my Goblins matchup and for Merfolk and so far it's done the job. Yeah it doesn't kill Goyf's or a bunch of the Zoo guys but there currently no Zoo in my meta and it still kills tons of relevant creatures and prevents swarm decks from building up threats.

Gate to Phyrexia: Might get kicked up to 3 copies since it's sooooo damn good in my meta. Anything that relies on artifacts gets beasted by this card, plus it can kill off Persecutor.

Oblivion Stone: Only reason I run this over disk is Planeswalkers since I lost to Jace last time I played the deck and I had Disk on the board. Didn't get a chance to see this guy in action but it seems good on paper.

Executioner's Capsule: My answer to Reanimator since I can get this puppy out turn 1 and then nuke Iona if necessary. Probably will get cut as Reanimator doesn't really exist in my meta and there are better meta choices.

Hymn to Tourach: Disgusting against combo and control and a must-run for every mono black deck. Period.

Extra Macabre: I could've run Extirpate/Leyline/Crypt in this spot but Macabre is exceedingly efficient and the fact that I can beat in with him makes him the best choice, IMO, for graveyard hate in this deck.


I'll weigh in quick on a few things I'm seeing here:

@ Confidant vs. Arena: Confidant is clearly better as it synergizes more with Therapy, Jitte and the general beatdown of this deck. Also increasing the mana curve of the deck with another 3 drop just seems bad to me. The only thing I like is that it doesn't bite it to Innocent Blood but that really doesn't make much of a diff. Run Confidant.

@ Bloodghast: This guy could work but it's largely because he gets Jitted. I will test with him and get back to you on this. I'll probably try cutting 1 Persecutor for him since Persecutor was a bit lackluster in my tournament.

@ Nantuko Shade: Awful awful awful awful, and trust me I love Shade as I played him for 4 years. This deck needs to be constantly playing down threats and disruption and it can barely afford the mana to equip Jitte. Tying up your mana in one creature is a surefire way to get stomped by fast aggro decks since you don't gain the same advantages you would with Gatekeeper and Nighthawk and they'll just chump block, or kill, your shade. Basically it's an opportunity for them to make you waste your mana with pumps before STP/Pathing your dude.

@ Sword of Light and Shadow: Why? Jitte is straight up better and 3 of generally doesn't result in overdrawing of the card. You shouldn't have to recur creatures since the deck is very threat heavy and Bitterblossom provides you with infinite dudes that fly. Lifegain is also completely unneccessary as well and when recurring guys you'll have the same issue of shade in that you won't have enough mana to play down what you draw as well as what you recur and you'll get bottlenecked.

@ Inquisition of Kozilek: Sorry, but I hate this card. It doesn't hit FoW, it doesn't hit Ad Nauseum, it doesn't hit Belcher or Empty, it doesn't hit Natural Order. The point of Duress is to disable combo decks and plow the road against control. This card does neither of those effectively and basically will just give you overkill against aggro by hitting their dudes. The build runs 9+ removal spells plus Nighthawk and Jitte for crying out loud so why would you need more creature removal? If you want to play with this card, play type 2.

[Osmin]

Did anyone try Extirpate? With such number of discard it can be good.

[Khurtz]

@ Osmin: I actually had Extirpate in my board originally but due to the low number of graveyard based decks I've removed it. Were I to add in any additional graveyard hate on top of Macabre it would be Extirpate since it cripples Loam decks and does some serious damage against most other graveyard based decks. I wouldn't recommend it over Macabre in the main though since Macabre doubles over as a beater and Extirpate will probably be sub par against most Aggro and Control decks.

[imanujakku]

bloodghast is ok. you get some nice synergy with innocent blood and therapy. i just played a game against stiflenaught where i emptied his head with turn 1 duress -> turn 2 therapy-?thereapy -> turn 3 bloodghast -> 2 flashbacked therapies.

against zoo its ok because it makes them find swords or path instead of bolts and chain. its also nice to have a constant jitte threat. i also like how he makes your 5th land useful. if you run bloodghast i think bitterblossom is cut.

percy is ok. if the bloodwitch was 4 mana she would be my finisher of choice in this deck for sure.

[IamPhil]

Hollywood - love the deck, love the thread. Keep on truckin'!

I've read the first ten pages or so and thoroughly enjoyed the deck and evolution. I'll probably tackle something close to the version on page 4. Here is the version with a few tweaks:

// Lands
16 [A] Swamp
4 [TE] Wasteland
2 [WWK] Bojuka Bog

// Creatures
4 [WWK] Abyssal Persecutor
4 [ZEN] Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
3 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
4 [ZEN] Vampire Nighthawk
1 [ZEN] Bloodghast

// Spells
3 [JU] Cabal Therapy
1 [CS] Deathmark
1 [FUT] Slaughter Pact
4 [OD] Innocent Blood
2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 [US] Duress
3 [MOR] Bitterblossom

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 [WL] Spinning Darkness
SB: 3 [MR] Oblivion Stone
SB: 4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach
SB: 3 [ZEN] Sadistic Sacrament

Most notably, I've swapped numbers with Bitterblossom and Jitte back to 3/2, respectively. Second, I trimmed the Deathmarks. Throughout the thread, I have been pro-DM as a great, efficient, yet narrow removal spell that fulfilled your needs. Unfortunately, my meta is vastly different from Hollywood's that I cannot effectively use it. I've replaced two of the three Deathmarks with a Slaughter Pact and a Bloodghast, and I've retained the one as a blowout against the various Bant, New Horizons, and Aggro Loam decks we have floating around.

Edit: O-Stone > Disk, after seeing Chubu's post.

Bloodghast cannot block, often cannot get through, but he's strong in the mirror and every land turns into another Jitte-body. He also keeps coming back against Zoo. Invest once, recur excessively? Seems plausible, or at least testable. I cannot see running more than three 'Ghasts, but one is a good starting point.

I cannot see running three Sadistic Sacrament over two Nether Void and a Dystopia because I can borrow the cards. We do have two Enchantress players here, but Disk seems to do double duty. We have no Combo players but I have ANT ready and we have enough experienced players.

Lastly, before I take this out for a Friday night of sushi and testing, I haven't seen the Elfball matchup addressed. [B]Hollywood, if you're still reading this thread, I would appreciate your thoughts. To anyone else, if the matchup has been addressed, just post once and I'll find it. (And please accept my humble apologies).


PS: Is anybody else amused that nobody mentioned Slaughter Pact in a Bob-deck (through page 10)? I know the deck eats mana for breakfast, lunch, and dinner, but I still think it absurd nobody considered running it!

[dropkickdude]

Slaughter Pact is indeed interesting, I always forget about it...

[imanujakku]

what do you guys think about finding some room for 2-3 tops in here ?

with so many sorceries/creatures we are pretty dormant on our opponents turn and mid game can start to chug by top decking hymns/duress etc. the top would be a good way to spend spare mana, find the sac outlet for percy, keep the confidant from hurting us. it also gives us a broader range of turn one keeper hands.

ive found bitterblossom to me rather underwhelming so that would be my first cut for top. bitterblossom seems better for pox or if you are running contamination. there is a lot of stuff competing for what we do on turn 2 and bitterblossom is my least favorite option.

some other cards i want to play around with are :
basilisk collar (fits a little better with the overall theme of the deck and lets malakir trade with zoo creatures instead of chumping)
cabal pit.
bojuka bog (though i dont really like come into play tapped stuff) i played a guy tonight who knew the list and needled the faerie macabre

id also really the sideboard to include more creatures to keep the balance of the deck relatively the same in games 2 and 3.

stillmoon cavalier
necroplasm as an alternative to plague

and finally something fun :

the alt win con of leyline/helm of obedience

[linux-ll-]

I´m not sure about playing Bojuka Bog because I´m playing 14 cards with cc1 and don´t know if I can support them. And Wastelands can hurt us.

[sporenfrosch1411]

Can we discuss hymn to tourach a bit?
I see many ppl playing it in the Sideboard, but i dont understand it. In Control Matchups, Hymn is a must have as far as im concerned, but even vs Zoo and Stuff.... why would u not want to have it main there? I think of it as a good card in all Matchups :)
(U are invited to consider other matchups than zoo, its just my "number 1 this needs to be fixed as a matchup" deck :D )

[imanujakku]

i would argue hymn is the only reason to even play this deck. it only get sided out versus dredge.

[Michael Keller]

i would argue hymn is the only reason to even play this deck. it only get sided out versus dredge.

By all means, please...argue. Explain to us all why you feel one discard spell - by itself - justifies picking up an entire deck and playing with it.

Even if you're advocating its use simply by its power level, Hymn to Tourach isn't the only catalyst that wins this deck games.

[imanujakku]

what else are you putting in its place that can swing a game as much as hymn ?

hymn is subpar versus dredge. every other deck is chalk full of cards id love to see hit the graveyard on turn 2.

i dont really see how the deck reaches the midgame without a bridge to the midgame and hymn is pretty much the only bridge card. if there was a two for one removal spell for two mana id use that.

honestly the only reason to play this deck is because you like mono black decks or rogue decks. the mid game is a tough place to win in legacy.

[Michael Keller]

what else are you putting in its place that can swing a game as much as hymn ?

hymn is subpar versus dredge. every other deck is chalk full of cards id love to see hit the graveyard on turn 2.

i dont really see how the deck reaches the midgame without a bridge to the midgame and hymn is pretty much the only bridge card. if there was a two for one removal spell for two mana id use that.

honestly the only reason to play this deck is because you like mono black decks or rogue decks. the mid game is a tough place to win in legacy.

I think you are sorely underestimating what this deck is tailored to do, so I would refer you back to the first several pages of the thread to understand the formula for which the deck is predicated on. This deck is tailor-made to sustain the mid-game, unlike the countless, mindless Suicide Black decks which dump their hands turn one or two and subsequently never recover.

This deck does not do that.

You have to understand Hymn to Tourach is not the only "bridge", as you put it, to sustain the first few turns so the deck can flow easier into each subsequent turn thereafter. In case you missed it, there is an absolutely ridiculous amount of sacrificial and spot removal in this deck to completely nullify any sort of early attack stemming from cards like Wild Nacatl, Kird Ape, etc. Bottom line is that no creatures should be on the board by turn three against you. And even if they somehow manage to land a creature, you have a statistically very good chance of drawing into some sort of removal.

The basis for which this deck functions is that it does not deplete itself early so that it can never recover. It is comprised of cheap, efficient removal with powerful under-costed creatures (and other spells) that offset just about anything detrimental to your game-state. That is what separates this deck from traditional mono-colored black decks that are geared towards overwhelming an opponent the first two turns by depleting your own hand in the process. That couldn't further from the truth for this deck here.

[Kangaxx]

This deck is definitely not as good as Sui Mask especially with the white splash for E. Tutor. Why play this over a B/W Mask deck? I mean, a 6/6 for four and two cards or a 12/12 for 3 and two cards? There's no comparison.

[imanujakku]

i saw this thread a couple days ago. i built my deck off these three lists that popped up on deck check. im all for a sustainable mid game but i cant see running 4 deathmarks main to get there versus one deck. even with deathmark you cant hit lavamancer or ape and everything you have zoo can easily remove the gatekeeper might as well read as a 3 mana chainers versus them . hymn is solid versus everything else and i cant see taking out a card that is good versus everything but dredge in favor of a card that is could be a very weighty game one brick.

none of these lists run deathmark main and the contamination list is the only one without hymn because contamination has taken its place.

hymn is great against anything blue and probably the only reason i dont autoscoop to a standstill when playing this deck. we are already very light on good legacy cards in this deck and it would take a card on par with its power level to get me to remove it from a mono black list.


http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=36613
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=36582
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=36578

[Osmin]

What does everyone think about fetches? I had several bad matches when I was flooded by lands instead of threats.
And what about singleton Volrath's Stronghold?

[IamPhil]

What does everyone think about fetches? I had several bad matches when I was flooded by lands instead of threats.
And what about singleton Volrath's Stronghold?

The original build ran 16 Swamps and 4 Wasteland. What is your mana base?

[imanujakku]

fetches just put you one stop closer to eva green. the reasons for running a mono black list are short and not very compelling other than being rogue and a fraction of the cost of eva green.

we dont care about opposing wastelands (i actually really like that aspect of this deck) but other decks usually dont care that much because they are fetching

we dont care about stifle.

we dont need dark ritual. we can run 20-21 lands but run the risk of drawing into them later (this is actually why im running 2 tops in my deck now)

i

[Khurtz]

@Kangaxx: Yeah, cause running dreadnought in a deck without any counterprotection is "tech". Dreadnought dies to almost every removal spell ever invented and only survives in Dreadstill because of the protection.

@imanujakku: While Hymn is amazing, this deck has plenty of other methods of generating card advantage that can win the game without it. I've ripped through standstills without Hymn and still managed to demolish my opponents resources because of the efficiency of my threats. I don't disagree that Hymn should be run, I just don't see that it's the key card in the deck.

@Osmin: Fetches are bad because they give you no advantage and several disadvantages in this deck. One disadvantage would be life loss, which isn't always that huge but coupled with Bitterblossom and Confidant can be problematic. Another would be that you don't want to thin the deck out. You run a low number of swamps as is and you need to hit at least double black to maintain efficiency and thinning your deck would make you more likely to hit wastelands or non-land cards when you're trying to hit swamps. Volrath's Stronghold is entirely unneccessary as the deck generates enough card advantage to almost guarantee you never run out of threats.

@Deathmark: This card is ENTIRELY meta dependant. Here in Rochester there's a very low number of people who actually own sets of Goyf's so I cut the card before the first tourney I played it. Were I to play in a larger tournament I might consider running at least 2 Deathmark maindecked as I would anticipate more Zoo/Goyf flavored decks. If you don't see Goyf's just run Smother or Doom Blade or something, no big deal.

[Kangaxx]

@Kangaxx: Yeah, cause running dreadnought in a deck without any counterprotection is "tech". Dreadnought dies to almost every removal spell ever invented and only survives in Dreadstill because of the protection.


Ok. Prime examples of the most heavily played removal cards in Legacy.

Swords to Plowshares:

Does this effect Dreadnought: Yes.

Does this effect Persecutor: Yes.

What's the difference? Dreadnought gains me 12 life opposed to 6. Is less of a tempo hit, since I'm paying 1 mana opposed to 4. Is persecutor superior in this scenario? No.

Path to Exile:

Effects Dreadnought: Yes.

Effects Persecutor: Yes.

What's the difference? Sui Mask can take advantage of the mana gained off of a PtE alot more than The Gate. There's more of an array of bombs that I would be able to draw rather than useless discard as a topdeck, opposed to more creatures or an E. Tutor. The Gate's creatures are significantly smaller making them bad topdecks, I run less discard decreasing the chances of getting bad topdecks, I run more tutors also decreasing these chances further. Sui Mask is also a very mana curve dependant deck and elevating these advantages is more dangerous to my opponent than it normally would be.

Smother:

Effects Dreadnought: Yes.

Effects Persecutor: No.

What's the difference? Dreadnought is effected yes but suffers less of a tempo loss compared to things like even tarmogoyf. Have people stopped playing Goyf becuase of Smother. No. Do people consider tarmogoyf a more solid card than Abyssal Persecutor? Yes. Becuase Goyf is Goyf and Abyssal Persecutor is a 4 mana creature card who comes into play alot less quickly. Does anyone even play Smother? To a certain extent but not nearly as prevalent as the first two removal spells I have mentioned that effect both creatures with differing conclusional outcomes.

I feel that, yes, there are more removal spells that deal with Dreadnought alot easier, but the most prevalent removal spells effect both yet Dreadnought always comes out to be a superior choice since the potential tempo loss is less significant than Persecutor's. Any way you look at it a 12/12 for 1 on the first turn is more dangerous especially on a first turn basis, than a second turn 6/6 who is uneffected by Smother and Krosan Grip. Also having the option of playing Thoughtseize and Hymn on the first turn makes up for the lack of reactive protection and replaced with a proactive approach that can easily become succeeded by the combo in the following turns where you suspect that removal could be relevent given that particular situation. Any way you cut it, a 12/12 for 1 mana is always going to have it's advantages over a 6/6 for 4. That's like saying Goyf is a bad card since people could always cast a Vendetta on it when his opponent has run out of countermagic or his Daze is totally useless becuase of a Dark Ritual and he's tapped out with no FoW. And the coolest thing about Mask + Dreadnought, is after resolving a Mask and it comes into play, all Dreadnoughts turn into 1 cc creatures with no drawbacks. And unlike Stifle, Illusionary Mask is a constant effect that can be put into use as opposed to needing additional Stifles if the first Dreadnought doesn't resolve.

[sporenfrosch1411]

What i wonder is, why would you need a turn 1 Dreadnought? I get the point of it beeing a nice tactic, but this Deck is focused on disrupting the enemy for the first 2-3 Turns, THEN dropping something.


And if u compare those 2 guys, think of the following pls:

Nought is FIXED on having a Mask. If u dont have a Mask, thats no Nought for you then. If your Mask gets Countered or destroyed before you can put your ship in the haven, u got Mr.DeadCard on your hand (the nought).
Looking at Persecutor. You dont need extra cards for him, yet. You just put him out, and if your opp cant handle him, he swings him down to the rather negative areas of Life. Then what? He can´t destroy it, if he does, he looses. So he wants to keep him alive, but hey, keeping an enemy´s creature alive - kind of a tough job. Then thinking again, you will most likely have a Cabal Therapy in your grave or an innocent Blood or Gatekeeper in your hand (or whatever else - this deck is full of solutions for this). You might realize, that Nought relies on exactly 2 cards, which on their own do nothing (y that can be a downside of combo). TheGate uses the synergy of the Persecutor with cards you´d wanna play even without the Persecutor. All can be played on their own - no dead hand in sight.

I can clearly see the aspect of the Nought having double the power, but hey, i dont want dead cards for it, no matter at what price ;) i wanna go consistent with TheGate. Consistency is a thing this deck has, which most MonoBlack Decks dont, and which makes this one stand out imo.

[Michael Keller]

Ok. Prime examples of the most heavily played removal cards in Legacy.

Swords to Plowshares:

Does this effect Dreadnought: Yes.

Does this effect Persecutor: Yes.

What's the difference? Dreadnought gains me 12 life opposed to 6. Is less of a tempo hit, since I'm paying 1 mana opposed to 4. Is persecutor superior in this scenario? No.

Path to Exile:

Effects Dreadnought: Yes.

Effects Persecutor: Yes.

What's the difference? Sui Mask can take advantage of the mana gained off of a PtE alot more than The Gate. There's more of an array of bombs that I would be able to draw rather than useless discard as a topdeck, opposed to more creatures or an E. Tutor. The Gate's creatures are significantly smaller making them bad topdecks, I run less discard decreasing the chances of getting bad topdecks, I run more tutors also decreasing these chances further. Sui Mask is also a very mana curve dependant deck and elevating these advantages is more dangerous to my opponent than it normally would be.

Smother:

Effects Dreadnought: Yes.

Effects Persecutor: No.

What's the difference? Dreadnought is effected yes but suffers less of a tempo loss compared to things like even tarmogoyf. Have people stopped playing Goyf becuase of Smother. No. Do people consider tarmogoyf a more solid card than Abyssal Persecutor? Yes. Becuase Goyf is Goyf and Abyssal Persecutor is a 4 mana creature card who comes into play alot less quickly. Does anyone even play Smother? To a certain extent but not nearly as prevalent as the first two removal spells I have mentioned that effect both creatures with differing conclusional outcomes.

I feel that, yes, there are more removal spells that deal with Dreadnought alot easier, but the most prevalent removal spells effect both yet Dreadnought always comes out to be a superior choice since the potential tempo loss is less significant than Persecutor's. Any way you look at it a 12/12 for 1 on the first turn is more dangerous especially on a first turn basis, than a second turn 6/6 who is uneffected by Smother and Krosan Grip. Also having the option of playing Thoughtseize and Hymn on the first turn makes up for the lack of reactive protection and replaced with a proactive approach that can easily become succeeded by the combo in the following turns where you suspect that removal could be relevent given that particular situation. Any way you cut it, a 12/12 for 1 mana is always going to have it's advantages over a 6/6 for 4. That's like saying Goyf is a bad card since people could always cast a Vendetta on it when his opponent has run out of countermagic or his Daze is totally useless becuase of a Dark Ritual and he's tapped out with no FoW. And the coolest thing about Mask + Dreadnought, is after resolving a Mask and it comes into play, all Dreadnoughts turn into 1 cc creatures with no drawbacks. And unlike Stifle, Illusionary Mask is a constant effect that can be put into use as opposed to needing additional Stifles if the first Dreadnought doesn't resolve.

Okay first off, you completely neglected several very key points that were either left out on purpose or by accident. Either way, let me refresh you memory:

Qasali Pridemage

This card eats Phyrexian Dreadnought for breakfast. It is (as of this moment) one of the most heavily played creatures in the format. This is why you are seeing an adverse reaction to the number of people playing decks with the Stifle-Dreadnought combination. With this creature in just about every viable deck running green with a white splash, you can bet this creature will not stay alive to even survive the attack step. Unlike, however, Abyssal Persecutor - which does not eat it to any relegated artifact removal what so ever.

Krosan Grip

Probably the most heavily played sideboard cards in Legacy today. Does Abyssal Persecutor eat it to this? No, it doesn't. At the cost of two for one, none the less. You cannot make an argument for Dreadnought with the existence of this card in the format because, quite frankly, there is nothing you can do to stop it in the first place once it resolves.

Counter-Top

Extraordinarily bad. Because these days, you actually can counter the Dreadnought.

Basically what you are doing is taking one solid deck and watering it down with an extraordinarily fragile combo. In addition, you continue to revert back to Tarmogoyf as if that card actually matters against this deck. It doesn't. It is the absolute least of your worries. Your argument is that decks that dictate the tempo within the first several turns ultimately win you the game, and I'm sorry I just completely disagree with you. Just because you dump your hand turn one or two does not mean you will win the game; not in today's Legacy. You're also making a distinct comparison between an artifact-based combo and a flying, trampling creature. The only comparison here is that they would (in theory) be the primary win condition for the deck. One expends a much greater effort to resolve and stick than the other, and it just isn't worth the card-slots to worry.

This deck prides itself in being very evasive against typical hate cards like; Wasteland, Pridemage, Counterbalance, etc. Those cards don't have an outright advantage over this deck because it doesn't need tricks to avert problematic situations; simple solutions such as basic lands, odd-cost creatures, and cheap removal. Is a resolved Phyrexian Dreadnought problematic? Sure it is. But there are far more difficulties people face in trying to cheat it into play like resolving it or making it stick that it just isn't worth the effort (or card-space) in this particular circumstance.

I played Suicide Mask for a year and a half as it was once one of my favorite decks in "1.5". I can tell you from my experience with that deck is that what it lacks in consistency certainly doesn't make up for in tempo with all the removal in the format these six years later. It just isn't worth it. Abyssal Persecutor is a very potent offensive tool that isn't as situational and isn't as fragile as a two-card combination in that of Mask-Dreadnought.

[Kangaxx]

Okay first off, you completely neglected several very key points that were either left out on purpose or by accident. Either way, let me refresh you memory:

Quasali Pridemage

This card eats Phyrexian Dreadnought for breakfast. It is (as of this moment) one of the most heavily played creatures in the format. This is why you are seeing an adverse reaction to the number of people playing decks with the Stifle-Dreadnought combination. With this creature in just about every viable deck running green with a white splash, you can bet this creature will not stay alive to even survive the attack step. Unlike, however, Abyssal Persecutor - which does not eat it to any relegated artifact removal what so ever.

Krosan Grip

Probably the most heavily played sideboard cards in Legacy today. Does Abyssal Persecutor eat it to this? No, it doesn't. At the cost of two for one, none the less. You cannot make an argument for Dreadnought with the existence of this card in the format because, quite frankly, there is nothing you can do to stop it in the first place once it resolves.

Counter-Top

Extraordinarily bad. Because these days, you actually can counter the Dreadnought.

Basically what you are doing is taking one solid deck and watering it down with an extraordinarily fragile combo. In addition, you continue to revert back to Tarmogoyf as if that card actually matters against this deck. It doesn't. It is the absolute least of your worries. Your argument is that decks that dictate the tempo within the first several turns ultimately win you the game, and I'm sorry I just completely disagree with you. Just because you dump your hand turn one or two does not mean you will win the game; not in today's Legacy. You're also making a distinct comparison between an artifact-based combo and a flying, trampling creature. The only comparison here is that they would (in theory) be the primary win condition for the deck. One expends a much greater effort to resolve and stick than the other, and it just isn't worth the card-slots to worry.

This deck prides itself in being very evasive against typical hate cards like; Wasteland, Pridemage, Counterbalance, etc. Those cards don't have an outright advantage over this deck because it doesn't need tricks to avert problematic situations; simple solutions such as basic lands, odd-cost creatures, and cheap removal. Is a resolved Phyrexian Dreadnought problematic? Sure it is. But there are far more difficulties people face in trying to cheat it into play like resolving it or making it stick that it just isn't worth the effort (or card-space) in this particular circumstance.

I played Suicide Mask for a year and a half as it was once one of my favorite decks in "1.5". I can tell you from my experience with that deck is that what it lacks in consistency certainly doesn't make up for in tempo with all the removal in the format these six years later. It just isn't worth it. Abyssal Persecutor is a very potent offensive tool that isn't as situational and isn't as fragile as a two-card combination in that of Mask-Dreadnought.

Are you seriously trying to justify playing a 6/6 for four mana over a dreadnought? Regardless of removal and possible game situations a 12/12 for one mana is always going to have an edge over a four mana creature.

I also was not aware of Suicide Mask before my initial conception. Any links to this supposed pre-existing archetype would be appreciated.

[xTrainx]

Dreadnought needs two cards to make it work; you stop one, you have a dead card OR you get 2 for oned.

You ONLY need to worry about Persecutor when its at the point that you kill them anyway, and he is killed by cards that are helpful to you at any other point in time as well; meaning you don't have that dead card, or the two for one.

[AlterEgo]

Which is easier to achieve - having one card now and one other card three turns later; or having both cards now?

[Michael Keller]

Are you seriously trying to justify playing a 6/6 for four mana over a dreadnought? Regardless of removal and possible game situations a 12/12 for one mana is always going to have an edge over a four mana creature.

I also was not aware of Suicide Mask before my initial conception. Any links to this supposed pre-existing archetype would be appreciated.

Yes, I am justifying playing a creature that (believe it or not) doesn't require dropping a "hard-earned", 100% down-payment on a new house only to have it foreclosed five minutes later by the bank sitting across the street. Abyssal Persecutor is a low-cost, powerful creature that works very well within the framework of this deck. You are suggesting watering it down with an extremely situational, fragile combo that has even itself deteriorated since you are now able to counter the creature anyways.

That is just bad. You seem to be under this unequivocal impression that because a black Magic card costs four mana, you automatically assume you must play Dark Ritual otherwise it isn't worth the time. That method of thinking is the very opposite of the methodology used to create this deck in the first place. And since its inception, this variation of mono-black seems to be the preferred choice of strategy instead of the countless Suicide versions that insist on dumping their hands to trade consistency for a short, abrupt "tempo rush".

Abyssal Persecutor has great synergy with many cards in this deck, whether it's the added "trample" effect that carries over with an equipped Jitte to nab counters or its four casting-cost to avert Counterbalance triggers. With cards like Cabal Therapy to flashback for the win or a kicked Gatekeeper of Malikir to boot, Abyssal Gatekeeper puts your opponent on a legitimate clock that doesn't require praying on drawing two cards either to open or successively in order to work. Not to mention, adding that fragile combo would COMPLETELY change the mulligan strategy of this deck which is already hardly aggressive at all.

I must admit that I briefly read your Illusionary Mask deck you recently posted and it is predicated on a completely different strategic formula than The Gate operates on. And while I can appreciate the suggestion, it is just extraordinarily bad.

[K_Rot_T]

Krosan Grip

Probably the most heavily played sideboard cards in Legacy today.

Just to confirm this. Deckcheck says about the most played SB Cards:
# Sideboard
# 7749 Krosan Grip
# 5868 Tormod's Crypt
# 3974 Relic of Progenitus
# 3253 Pithing Needle
# 2880 Blue Elemental Blast
# 2451 Extirpate
# 2328 Engineered Plague
# 2288 Hydroblast
# 2040 Red Elemental Blast
# 1745 Leyline of the Void
# 1726 Pyroblast
# 1519 Engineered Explosives
# 1379 Meddling Mage
# 1372 Gaddock Teeg
# 1333 Chalice of the Void


Are you seriously trying to justify playing a 6/6 for four mana over a dreadnought? Regardless of removal and possible game situations a 12/12 for one mana is always going to have an edge over a four mana creature.

I really don't see why you always say 12/12 for one. You HAVE to play the Mask before the Dreadnought. Which makes it a 12/12 for 3 + 1 Card OR if you play it in 2 turns a 12/12 for 1 with a prepaid echo of 2.


/Edit Forget this: Ofcourse Mask makes your creatures uncounterable BUT Gatekeeper and Confidant don't get anything from that....

[AlterEgo]

Ofcourse Mask makes your creatures uncounterable

It doesn't.

{X}: You may choose a creature card in your hand whose mana cost could be paid by some amount of, or all of, the mana you spent on Variable Colorless. If you do, you may cast that card face down as a 2/2 creature spell without paying its mana cost. If the creature that spell becomes as it resolves has not been turned face up and would assign or deal damage, be dealt damage, or become tapped, instead it's turned face up and assigns or deals damage, is dealt damage, or becomes tapped. Activate this ability only any time you could cast a sorcery.

[Chubu!]

I've got a decklist I have been testing quite a bit, of late, and would like to get some feedback on it. I suppose it should fall under this thread, even though it is quite a bit different from many lists that have been posted (including my own.) Questions, comments, concerns, and cold-blooded hating are all welcome. Note that the list is post-M11:

Lands (22):
19 Swamp
3 Wasteland

Threats (21)
4 Abyssal Persecutor
4 Shriekmaw
2 Tombstalker
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
3 Nyxathid
3 Viscera Seer
1 Reassembling Skeleton

Enchantments (4):
4 Phyrexian Arena

Spells (10):
4 Innocent Blood
2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition
2 Cabal Therapy

Artifacts (3):
3 Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard is something along the lines of:
3-4 Yard Hate (I like Leylines, personally, but that may change, depending on what happens with Reanimator)
Perish
Gate to Phyrexia
Engineered Plague
O-Stone
1-2 Volrath's Stronghold (I'm considering this as some tech. vs. Zoo. Too early to say whether it's legit or not, as of yet.)

So, some general comments:
Basically, I wanted to up the aggro matchups, especially Zoo. Nyxathid, while not the best black creature ever printed (by a long shot) is nice in the match, as Zoo likes to dump a goodly chunk of their hand rather quickly. I wouldn't go higher than three, because I don't necessarily want to see it in the early game. I'm still not 100% sold on the fellow, but I am looking for something with a big enough ass to stay out of burn range. Tombstalker is nice, but I can't support more than two, since I don't want to add in fetches and/or Rituals. (I don't want to open up to Stifles, countermagic, and the like, but I still want to stay aggro-unfriendly.)

No Hymn. Tell me I'm the worst magic player ever. I don't care. It has consistently been too slow in testing to be a reliable threat to Zoo, even when they're on the draw.

21 threats. Threats are good. The M11 cards (Seer and Skeleton) are the newest additions I'm trying out. I chose skeleton over 'ghast because of the potential as a chump-blocker. Both play well with Seer, Therapy, etc. As for the Seer-Skeleton loop, I'm already feeling like it may be too slow and mana-intensive to be a large asset to the deck. Maybe I chose unwisely, and should have gone for 'ghast. Time and testing will tell. As for Viscera Seer, I like it, so far. A 1-drop critter is nice, and it makes a decent chump-blocker. Hell, it makes any creature a decent chump, when you get to Scry at the same time. Its ability has come in handy on several occasions, not the least of which involves turning evoked "maws into "Destroy target nonartifact, nonblack creature. Scry 1"

That's it. I'd love to hear some constructive criticisms, and will tolerate general bashing, as well, if it helps you go poopoo better in the morning.

[2Rach]

Seems terrible. Some things that bug me:

Only six discard effects to go with Nyxathid. Zoo can't be the only matchup in your area...

Viscera Seer when you already have four Arenas and Top is legal in the format(and just being terrible in general). Along with that, using Reassembling Skeleton when there's Bloodghast in the format and only one to match your three Seers. I read the rest of the post and see that your testing is helping you figure out your lapse in judgment.

Not running Dark Ritual when it can help power out Shriekmaw for card parity, Tombstalker, Gatekeeper, Persecutor, and Arena.

NO HYMN. I've played Zoo tons and it helps tremendously, even against Lynx Zoo. It has its bad moments but all discard does. Would also help to make Nyxathid relevant in more matchups.



On a more general note, I've been playing a mix between my BG deck(similar to Eva Green) and The Gate, running white; my motivation being Stoneforge into Grafted War-gear for Persecutor. I run the other good stuff with it like StoP, Vindicate, and Jitte. It has been doing well, so I came here to ask if anyone has tried Grafted War-gear? Good on Gatekeepers and Nighthawks and makes your Confidants big enough to kill Goyf.

[Chubu!]

Viscera Seer when you already have four Arenas and Top is legal in the format(and just being terrible in general)
I, too, was quick to write Seer off as crap, but I've been happier with the fellow than top for a few reasons. First off, he is a body. Chumping a Lynx or a Nacatal is nice, when I also get to scry. He also carries a Jitte (albeit usually on a suicide mission.) If Seer gets removed to make way for said attacker, I still get to scry, and that's one less removal spell in their hand. Obviously, he is a sac. outlet for Persecutor, but that much goes without saying. I feel like black has been a little short on 1-drop critters, what with combat damage no longer using the stack, and whatnot. I also want to keep my creature count as high as possible, because sometimes what I need vs. aggro is time to draw into (even more) removal, while I get myself set up. As for the redundancy of seer with Arena, in terms of card advantage, I'm fine with that.

On a final note, I tested top in a previous build of the deck. I love top. However, I just wasn't able to exploit it adequately to justify running it, without hurting my own tempo/watering down the focus of the deck with synergistic cards (i.e. fetches) in the process.

Nyxathid has been horrible in the Goblins matchup (which I see in my area) and definitely comes out for that one. Eats it to ringleaders all day long. I've been trying him out because, vs. Zoo, Nighthawks (the creature with which I'd most strongly consider replacing Nyxathid) tend eat removal spells as fast as the opponent can spit them out. I'm kind of at a loss for a creature with a big enough ass to withstand a red removal spell, (like when I go to equip Jitte and they respond with a bolt of some kind) and still be cheap enough to cast to make it viable in the deck. Wall of Souls fits the criteria, except it can't apply direct aggro pressure. 'Ghast can't block. Reassembling skeleton is lackluster in this role. Necroskitter never does what he's supposed to do. Arrogant Bloodlord, surprisingly, failed to thrill me, making their little wimpy lynxes and moms and lackeys (oh, my) into effective chumps. I'm definitely not opposed to running Nighthawks, I just want to do so feeling like I've tested out all of my options.


Not running Dark Ritual when it can help power out Shriekmaw for card parity, Tombstalker, Gatekeeper, Persecutor, and Arena.
I cut Rituals in favor of more threats and spells. For the same reasons that the "normal" build of The Gate does not run rituals, I do not either. Basically, while I'm fine with fast mana, I found I'm better off using those slots for threats of some form or another.


NO HYMN. I've played Zoo tons and it helps tremendously, even against Lynx Zoo. It has its bad moments but all discard does. Would also help to make Nyxathid relevant in more matchups.
I stand by my call to cut Hymns. The tempo that Zoo gains off of connecting with a first turn Nacatl (or Steppe Lynx) is often enough to spell GG, even with the hurtin' that Hymn can put on. The reason that I posted this list in this thread, and not in any other thread is that, like the "normal" builds, the deck aims to stabilize via removal and fat creatures, which can out-chump theirs, then swing in for the kill when the clock is on my side.

One of the things I'm careful about, as I mess with this build, is to try not to screw up the Merfolk and New Horizons matchups, as I expect to continue seeing both for some time yet. For this reason, I do not want to drop below 12 "kill spells" (Shriekmaw, Gatekeeper, Innocent Blood) but I also want to maintain a high threat count. Shriekmaw and Tombstalker are both threatening, and Shriekmaw doubles as a removal spell, in the early game. Neither plays well with Bob, so I cut him in favor of Arena. (I still find myself boarding out Arenas vs. Zoo, in favor of more removal.) You make a good point with regards to Nyxathid - He's only decent vs. Zoo, and OK vs. New Horizons. Maybe I am overspecializing. I'll continue testing, and see how I feel after testing out some more of the more common matchups.

Regardless of our differences of opinion, thanks much for your comments. I will take them into consideration as I continue to test.

[2Rach]

On a final note, I tested top in a previous build of the deck. I love top. However, I just wasn't able to exploit it adequately to justify running it, without hurting my own tempo/watering down the focus of the deck with synergistic cards (i.e. fetches) in the process.
My mentioning Top wasn't so much to compare the two as much as to have you think about the slots those cards are taking up. Your Arenas do what these bad cards do. Very rarely will you be screwed for long stacks of lands or other bad topdecks with Arena. They could be used for much better cards, as more threats or redundancy in other areas.

Shades, Nighthawks, Hymns, more removal/discard. Lots of these would be better than Seer and a slightly better Drudge Skeletons. Chumping and kamikaze(ing?) with an equipment any creature can do, if you run better ones they may be able to deal good damage to a player, kill something, or even survive combat.


I've been trying him out because, vs. Zoo, Nighthawks tend eat removal spells as fast as the opponent can spit them out.
Yeah, I guess my decks run Hymns, in conjunction with other discard, to strip my opponent's hand of removal and/or bigger threats than Nacatl. I don't have this problem with either my Aggro-control Bg deck or my Bw The Gate.


I stand by my call to cut Hymns. The tempo that Zoo gains off of connecting with a first turn Nacatl (or Steppe Lynx) is often enough to spell GG, even with the hurtin' that Hymn can put on.
There are no matchups where Hymns are bad, none. Sometimes they do slightly worse than awesome and you can topdeck it at the wrong times, but turn two you're hard pressed to find a better drop. Even Tarmogoyf isn't as good.

Hymn can help screw their tempo too. Discarding their only two drop or some lands, or just discarding a Bolt or Path so they can't get rid of your Goyf/Nighthawk to be there as a wall or removal+life gain makes for a huge slowdown.


I cut Rituals in favor of more threats and spells. For the same reasons that the "normal" build of The Gate does not run rituals, I do not either. Basically, while I'm fine with fast mana, I found I'm better off using those slots for threats of some form or another.
Yeah, my BG deck started as Eva Green and moved away from a tempo disruption deck because Rituals and Sinkholes weren't doing enough. I took those out for the same reasons, but when I put together the Bw deck I put Rituals in. My BG deck doesn't have any filtering/draw so I wouldn't recover well from the Rituals, especially multiples. I also didn't have anything special to drop turn one. But your deck and my Bw deck are similar in the opposite, they produce lots of card advantage and have Bob/Arena so Dark Rituals would do fine in these decks because we can afford the card disadvantage to get the amazing tempo boost.

Your deck especially could utilize it. You have:
Shriekmaw - I can't see you getting five lands very often, much less in five turns. This will help you make this more than just a sorcery speed Terror giving you a body that can evade with Jitte or take out Nacatl, all as early as turn three.
Persecutor - Same thing, I don't see four lands being consistent. And if one's a Wasteland there's a chance you'll want to use it for more than just one colorless.
Gatekeeper - Against Zoo turn one it's a huge help or just to get that third black.
Arena - amazing turn one where even against Zoo you can take advantage of the extra cards before Zoo can use the life loss against you.
Tombstalker - Rituals help, not necessary here but every bonus counts.

[imanujakku]

Here is what ive been running lately and i feel a little better with this set up against merfolk and zoo. goblins usually still rip me up game one.

Lands 21

13 swamps
4x Wasteland (not really sure about these without sinkhole)
4x Polluted Delta


Creeps: 18

2x Dark Confidant
3x Hand of Cruelty (lots of legacy decks lean on StP as their only removal and can trade with zoo and merfolk creatures)
4x Gatekeeper of Malikir
4x Vampire Nighthawk
3x Tombstalker(no percy means some removal can be targeted and i dont have to worry about finding a sac effect when ahead)
2x Faerie Macabre (very narrow application and i think this should be in the board)

Spells: 16

4x innocent blood
2x smother
2x doomblade
4x Duress (should be thoughtseize but i dont own any yet)
2x Cabal Therapy(this could be inquisition or whatever you prefer)
4x Hymn to Tourach

Artifacts: 5

2x Sensei's Top
3x Jitte (its a lot but a lot of games with merfolk are who can get a jitte to stick.)


Side

4x Plague
4x Extirpate
4x Pithing needle
1x smother
2x Faerie Macabre


in an effort to change this decks overall top deck crappinessi removed bitterblossom. it could easily go back in place of 2 doomblades or smother but i dont like without some other synergy ie contamination. if the faerie token happened one turn earlier i would be much happier but the first faerie cannot even carry the jitte.

this deck probably need another finisher. perhaps an even split of percy and tombstalker.

[sporenfrosch1411]

Why would you only want to Play 2 Confidants ESPECIALLY when u have the Top in there!?
Also i dont get why u leave out the Percy. Percy is damn good, u play blood´s and cabal´s anyway - i dont see the point of 3 Stalkers.
Then, 13 swamps is just WAY to less to be playing. Those 4 Delta´s counted as Swamps gets it up to 17, but .... even 17 is too less imo. I play 19 Swamps (and 3 Wastes) and sometimes cant "kick" my Gatekeeper on Turn 3 !
Also, why would u remove Bitterblossom oO
Sure it takes a turn to set in, but hey, the Blossom gives u a Flying Man each turn.

Have u playtested this deck? Is this even working ?!

PS:
I like the Hand of Cruelty though, its kinda nice (but only in SB imo)

[Kangaxx]

Yes, I am justifying playing a creature that (believe it or not) doesn't require dropping a "hard-earned", 100% down-payment on a new house only to have it foreclosed five minutes later by the bank sitting across the street. Abyssal Persecutor is a low-cost, powerful creature that works very well within the framework of this deck. You are suggesting watering it down with an extremely situational, fragile combo that has even itself deteriorated since you are now able to counter the creature anyways.

That is just bad. You seem to be under this unequivocal impression that because a black Magic card costs four mana, you automatically assume you must play Dark Ritual otherwise it isn't worth the time. That method of thinking is the very opposite of the methodology used to create this deck in the first place. And since its inception, this variation of mono-black seems to be the preferred choice of strategy instead of the countless Suicide versions that insist on dumping their hands to trade consistency for a short, abrupt "tempo rush".

Abyssal Persecutor has great synergy with many cards in this deck, whether it's the added "trample" effect that carries over with an equipped Jitte to nab counters or its four casting-cost to avert Counterbalance triggers. With cards like Cabal Therapy to flashback for the win or a kicked Gatekeeper of Malikir to boot, Abyssal Gatekeeper puts your opponent on a legitimate clock that doesn't require praying on drawing two cards either to open or successively in order to work. Not to mention, adding that fragile combo would COMPLETELY change the mulligan strategy of this deck which is already hardly aggressive at all.

I must admit that I briefly read your Illusionary Mask deck you recently posted and it is predicated on a completely different strategic formula than The Gate operates on. And while I can appreciate the suggestion, it is just extraordinarily bad.

I never suggested you running the combo.


You ONLY need to worry about Persecutor when its at the point that you kill them anyway, and he is killed by cards that are helpful to you at any other point in time as well; meaning you don't have that dead card, or the two for one.

Stifle + Dreadnought is a two for one. Phyrexian Dreadnought + Illusionary Mask is NOT a two for one.

[sporenfrosch1411]

Hell yeah it is. You will most likely not use the Mask for anything else but the shippy-arrrrrrr.
How can you not count this as a 2for1 if u loose ur Shippy?
Also i dont like the idea of getting the ship daze´d or force´d and do exactly nothing else on Turn2!

[Jon Stewart]

You could always play Hunted Horror with Mask, and Stifle as well. Stifle and Mask both combo beautifully with Hunted Horror and Dreadnought and hell, maybe even Hunted Phantasm and Trickbind.

[Galroth]

The inclusion of Hunted Horror, Stifle, Mask, and Dreadnaught turn this deck into an entirely different deck with a game plan nowhere in alignment with what The Gate is designed for. I suppose that's an obvious statement.

If people wish to pursue that: well it seems a failing idea to me personally, but by all means test it. I don't want to stem innovation. On the other hand I think it's fruitless to push the suggestion any further in this thread.

[IamPhil]

You beat me to it Galroth. Reading this thread has been a joy and a nightmare.

It's one thing to say, "Hey! This is a great idea!" It's a whole different thing to come in, ignore the deck's intended design simply because you disagree with it.

I look forward to testing this deck more tonight.

[Chubu!]

2rach, would you mind pm'ing me your Bw list? I'm curious to take a look at it, if you don't mind, as I have been working on something along those lines, of late. I don't feel this thread is the place to discuss it, but I'm still interested to check out what you've put together, maybe run it a few times to see how it feels.

[imanujakku]

Why would you only want to Play 2 Confidants ESPECIALLY when u have the Top in there!?
Also i dont get why u leave out the Percy. Percy is damn good, u play blood´s and cabal´s anyway - i dont see the point of 3 Stalkers.
Then, 13 swamps is just WAY to less to be playing. Those 4 Delta´s counted as Swamps gets it up to 17, but .... even 17 is too less imo. I play 19 Swamps (and 3 Wastes) and sometimes cant "kick" my Gatekeeper on Turn 3 !
Also, why would u remove Bitterblossom oO
Sure it takes a turn to set in, but hey, the Blossom gives u a Flying Man each turn.

Have u playtested this deck? Is this even working ?!

PS:
I like the Hand of Cruelty though, its kinda nice (but only in SB imo)

i only play online in hte tournament practice room so i dont realy get to choose what i face. lately ive been been facing goblins, zoo and merfolk the most followed by landstill decks.

the reason i removed bitterblossom is its not a good top deck but if you feel they are doing the job they can easily go back in place of doomblade or smother. its a good card but im just not sure it right in this deck. there are so many things competing for turn 2 in this deck already and if i have choice between jitte or bitterblossom i want jitte for if nothing else to waste somebody elses jitte.

confidant is not a good top deck. you can crank him up to 3 but i think 4 is too many. out of 50 or so games with this deck i can count the number of times ive gotten a confidant to stick around and actually draw me a card on one hand. top finds an answer quickly and keeps the anwers coming.

this deck desperately needs something to trade with zoo creatures and merfolk lords which is why i maindeck the hand of cruelty. its not optimal but black is severaly lacking in good 2 drops. shade fits better in mono black control with coffers as a end game finisher. pro white is good versus so many legacy decks because most just put in 4x StP/ PtE and call it good on removal.

percy is good. most of the time he ends the game but i have a had a few games where he his drawback has given a control deck time to find answers and turned a sure win into a loss. this deck has enough of an uphill battle without its win condition costing you the game. i think a 2/2 split between percy and tombstalker is worth exploring.

as for the lands the wastelands could be out and id run 15swamps, 4 fetches and 2 mishras factory. i dont really have a problem because this deck can operate on 2 mana for several turns.

[Justin]

On the first page of this thread, I argued that The Gate deserved to be on the N&D forum, rather than Established Decks. After 17 pages, I'm wondering if Established Decks wouldn't be more appropriate. I've seen this deck in live tournaments and it seems to be growing in popularity.

[2Rach]

2rach, would you mind pm'ing me your Bw list? I'm curious to take a look at it, if you don't mind, as I have been working on something along those lines, of late. I don't feel this thread is the place to discuss it, but I'm still interested to check out what you've put together, maybe run it a few times to see how it feels.
PMed.


Just to get this out there without all the extra noise:

On a more general note, I've been playing a mix between my BG deck(similar to Eva Green) and The Gate, running white; my motivation being Stoneforge into Grafted War-gear for Persecutor. I run the other good stuff with it like StoP, Vindicate, and Jitte. It has been doing well, so I came here to ask if anyone has tried Grafted War-gear? Good on Gatekeepers and Nighthawks and makes your Confidants big enough to kill Goyf.

[Osmin]

PMed.


Could you PM me too? I am thinking about white or green splash.

[makochman]

Could you PM me too? I am thinking about white or green splash.

Actually, maybe we can have a separate thread for the white splash? This way we can avoid an argument over whether a splash is necessary. (Though I wouldn't be surprised if Persecutor gets dropped eventually and we end up having an entirely different list.)

[Poxmaster]

hello

i'm testing this deck, with interesting results, let me show you:

Epidemic Gate (By Daniel Olivares Aka Poxmaster)

Creatures: 15
4 Abyssal Persecutor
4 gatekeeper of Malakir
3 Tombstalker
4 Bloodghast (any suggest???)

Instant 4
4 Dark Ritual

Sorceries 19
4 Innocent Blood
3 Pox
4 Small Pox
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Duress

Lands
4 Bayou
2 Fetchs (marsh Flats...)
1 Tomb of Urami
3 Mishra's Factory
2 wasteland
1 Bojuka Bog
9 Swamp


mmmmm now, I'm trying to change urami and 1 swamp for 2 Phyrexian Tower.
And change the configuration to contamination+Bitterbloosom v/s pox

so...what you think....


Please...if you can write on spanish....sorry about the "tarzan's English"

[Chubu!]

@Poxmaster:

¿Por qué no simplemente juegas con la lista "estandar" de Pox? Tu lista parece una mezcla de The Gate y Pox. Cuáles son los advantages de tu lista, sobre la de Pox o de The Gate?


4 Bloodghast (any suggest???)
Unas listas de Pox emplean Bloodghast y Nether Spirit como criaturas, y usan Entomb para enterrar las criaturas con mas frecuencia. Así, no es necesario tener mas que uno o dos copias de Nether Spirit (para evitar el problema de tener mas que esa sola criatura en el cementerio). Además es posible tener unas copias de Tombstalker, para funcionar como "finisher" y eliminar tarjetas superfluas del cementerio.

[Poxmaster]

Chubu!..
yo usualmente juego POX, de manera clasica y con splash, ahora el porque parece una mezcla, es por que me gusta experimentar con diversas estrategias.

me parecio una interesante mezcla, para experimentar, quizas en algun momento, pueda salir un tier1 no crees?

Sobre las ventajas sobre las listas individuales de pox y de gate??
falta experimentar mas y ver contra mas estrategias, pero el dia de ayer jugue un torneo de tienda con esta lista, derrote a Dredge, a white stax, empate con Thopter y perdi contra afownity....

las listas de Pox, las prefiero actualmente con Bloodghast, tambien lo he probado con tombstalker.


Gracias por el Español ;)

[dropkickdude]

Hand of Cruelty does indeed seem interesting. I must test this.

[sporenfrosch1411]

Played my old list :

G/W Aggro --> 1/2, 0/2, but he just drew like a god.
Reanimator -> 0/2 , 0/2 Absolutely no chance. U desperately need Leyline of the Void x4 in the Sideboard (which i did not have until now)



so i tweaked a bit and this is what im playing atm (untested yet):

19 Swamp
3 Wasteland

4 Dark Confidant
4 Abyssal Persecutor
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Vampire Nighthawk

4 Diabolic Edict
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Cabal Therapy
4 Innocent Blood
2 Bitterblossom
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Duress
2 Inquisition of Kozilek




My thoughts after testing:
-TheGate is annoyingly slow

-Iona on Black = gg so Leyline of the Void is a MUST 4 OFF for the Sideboard and u need to mull UNTIL u have it. Simple, but i needed to get my ass kicked before learning that

-Abyssal Persecutur.... i dont know.... he is so freaking expensive @ cc4.......
-Bitterblossom is freaking slow.


How can we add Tempo to this thingy besides from adding Rituals?
What can we do to have a more kickass effect?

In General i think i might add 4 Rituals and 2 Divining Top´s. This Deck srsly needs better starts / speed / consistency


Also this freaking sux (MagicWorkstation Deep Analysis, 500000 Shuffles):
Number of start hands w/o 1-st drops: 20875 (20,88%)

[imanujakku]

Snuff Out adds tempo and mishra's factory in place of wastelands could help too. if you have sinkhole i would not go that route but since i only play online and we will likely never see that card in that enviroment ive thought about trying the factories.

ive tried tops and they do their job. with very few instants we are fairly passive on our opponets turn so top gives you something to do.

you have come to the same conclusion i did after testing this deck fairly extensively and im now playing around with eva green, loam and rocks lists and all these decks just feel much better.

i think i just prefer mono black control. obviously korlash is a bit too slow for legacy now but the old korlash control decks just felt right. disrupt, disrupt, damnation, korlash, shade pumped by coffers and a massive corrupt...very satisfying and very mono black

this deck has the disruption part down but after that its scramble mode trying to cobble together an aggro win with control cards.

[mujadaddy]

So, this is the MB-midrange thread. The list I'm currently enjoying is VERY close to all these.

I tried to make Pox work for a long time, but I eventually became convinced by the Threats > Answers argument. My idea was to change Pox to a black version of Zoo, using discard instead of removal to clear the way. The main difference in my list and the one's I've found here is, no Abyssal Persecutor, and no Gatekeeper.

This is the current list I have been playing. I've gone 10-1 since settling on this build, losing to a monoblack Rishidan-lockdown deck with the :3: black vise card as win con... probably about 24-9 in those games. The sideboard is the only thing I've been futzing with -- the main is really solid as you would expect from this archetype, except for about 2 slots.

Qty Name
16 Swamp
4 Bloodstained Mire
//\\
// Creatures
3 Dark Confidant
4 Vampire Nighthawk
3 Tombstalker
4 Hand of Cruelty
2 Hypnotic Specter
//\\
// Spells
4 Dark Ritual
2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Damnation
2 Bad Moon
2 Doom Blade
1 Howl from Beyond
1 Underworld Dreams
2 Bitterblossom
//\\
// Sideboard
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Diabolic Edict
2 Nevinyrral's Disk
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Dystopia
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth

The main idea of The Gate is to run double-duties like Faerie and Gatekeeper -- once they're on the board, though, they've already done their important function. This deck is an aggro deck with 16+2 creatures and cards that hurt the opponent and make the creatures better.

Tombstalker -- Abyssal Persecutor bugs me. I don't want to have to win, then do something; I'd rather just win. I've never had a problem casting Tombstalker. I'd like to formally protest Gatekeeper at this time as well. Diabolic Edict does everything you really want him for, cheaper, at instant speed, which is always relevant.

Fetches, Bobs, Tops -- A combo. I've flipped Tomby once since I started testing, back before this exact list, so more like 30 matches. I won that game, though. Only 2 tops means that I can't run Shriekmaw like I'd like, though.

Hypnotic Specter -- Nothing makes Hypnotic Specter a better Legacy creature than 4 Vampire Nighthawks.

Hand of Cruelty -- So nice. Everyone runs Swords & Friends. So nice. If only it flew.

Those Doom Blades were Smother, could be again, but I've been pretty happy with them, especially with the Edicts side.

Two Bitterblossom is the right number. Card advantage, Fog, Jitte carrier -- they do it all. I even tried to fit Oona's Blackguard in here, but that becomes a different, less aggressive deck. Also, the metagame right now is short on flying creatures, except for Thopter/Swords, so having 2 Hyppys and 2 Bitterblossom is helpful.

Two Jitte is the right number. Ends the game if it stays online. Sixteen creatures+Bitterblossom is good times.

Speaking of 16 creatures + Bitterblossom, Bad Moon has been working for me.

Damnation -- great when I need it, not so much when I don't. Maybe this should be another swamp, but it shores up the fact that I'm only running 2 Doomblades as removal.

I had two Duress in place of the Underworld Dreams (such a win vs. Enchantress, Brainstorm, etc. It's probably too narrow, but it makes me giggle when I can shave a whole turn off a kill with 2 or 3 damage from a late Dreams) & Howl from Beyond (always relevant, especially with Bitterblossom, and makes late Rituals non-dead). Just experimenting, as 3 IoK & 4 Hymn have been working well.

Dark Ritual -- O Noes Card Disadvantage -- Let me tell you a story about permanents. 1st turn Nighthawk or Specter or even sometimes Confidant is not a bad deal, even if they get removed -- that is a tempo push, not a loss, because they don't get to spend their mana on a threat. The reward is far greater than the risk against about 100% of midgame decks -- they fumble around while Nighthawk gives a 12-16 point lifeswing, and you drop MORE threats. Even if they remove 3 in a row, more threats keep landing, and they're all must-answers basically.

Sideboard is just an experiment right now. Dystopia should probably be Perish; I hadn't changed that since I put Underworld Dreams main. Kozi is there for mill.

The deck that made me change 11 matches ago was Thopter/Sword. More disruption is only a delay against them -- turning dangerous creatures sideways, quickly, is better, as is GY hate in the side.

So, this is what I've been working on.

[bakofried]

Hey, I'm working with the standard list, and I was wondering what would be a decent sideboard for a completely unknown meta? I'm thinking some copies of Perish, Spinning Darkness, and more grave hate.

[Michael Keller]

So, this is the MB-midrange thread. The list I'm currently enjoying is VERY close to all these.

I tried to make Pox work for a long time, but I eventually became convinced by the Threats > Answers argument. My idea was to change Pox to a black version of Zoo, using discard instead of removal to clear the way. The main difference in my list and the one's I've found here is, no Abyssal Persecutor, and no Gatekeeper.

This is the current list I have been playing. I've gone 10-1 since settling on this build, losing to a monoblack Rishidan-lockdown deck with the :3: black vise card as win con... probably about 24-9 in those games. The sideboard is the only thing I've been futzing with -- the main is really solid as you would expect from this archetype, except for about 2 slots.

[cards]Qty Name
16 Swamp
4 Bloodstained Mire
//\\
// Creatures
3 Dark Confidant
4 Vampire Nighthawk
3 Tombstalker
4 Hand of Cruelty
2 Hypnotic Specter
//\\
// Spells
4 Dark Ritual
2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Damnation
2 Bad Moon
2 Doom Blade
1 Howl from Beyond
1 Underworld Dreams
2 Bitterblossom
//\\
// Sideboard
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Diabolic Edict
2 Nevinyrral's Disk
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Dystopia
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth


You're running a deck with a single Howl from Beyond, Bad Moon, Underworld Dreams, and worst of all, four Dark Ritual with two Hypnotic Specter. Please tell me you're not serious. Dark Ritual does not belong in this deck.

[imanujakku]

we need something broken in the list and right now mono black is lacking something broken.

the power of mono black is supposed to be what you can do with 3 black mana. with no necropotence and underworld dreams lagging a bit behind the times there is not a whole lot worthwhile that can be done with 3 black mana that cannot be done better by splashing.

the gatekeeper is the only thing we are using that requires 3 black and to me that is not a compelling enough reason to not be running eva green/ loam or rock lists.

[mujadaddy]

You're running a deck with a single Howl from Beyond, Bad Moon, Underworld Dreams, and worst of all, four Dark Ritual with two Hypnotic Specter. Please tell me you're not serious. Dark Ritual does not belong in this deck.

First off, I explicitly wrote that this isn't a "THE GATE" list, and that its goal is slightly different from The Gate. The decks both win with creatures, and a lot of them are the same, but beyond that, The Gate has to ensure that it has ways of saccing its big beater, while I don't have to worry about that.

Second, that's left me with a little flexibility, which I explicitly wrote I was testing against. I'm not saying UWD and Howl are the be-all, end-all cards for those slots, but they let the deck win faster, which is what I thought the main The Gate deck was missing. Same with Bad Moon -- with Moon & Bitterblossom, the clock ticks very loudly across the table.

Third, I read this entire thread yesterday before I posted in it. I know why you say The Gate doesn't want Rituals; I know what the gameplan is: steady answers for the opponent's early game, then, and only then, death. My list is much more of a traditional MBA list. The Rituals are a design choice that works. Think of it as a "Daze/No Daze" situation. Additionally, Sensei's Divining Top, to echo posters before me, only gets cast when I have free mana and a dominating board position.

Fourth, I see your maindeck Faerie Macabres, but once they hit the board, they're hardly a must-answer. Contrast Hyppy, who complements Nighthawk and draws removal for them, too.

Lastly, I would've preferred to post in the MBA thread, but I couldn't find it, and my list is much more Midrange that happens to commit to the Aggro plan.


we need something broken in the list and right now mono black is lacking something broken.

the power of mono black is supposed to be what you can do with 3 black mana. with no necropotence and underworld dreams lagging a bit behind the times there is not a whole lot worthwhile that can be done with 3 black mana that cannot be done better by splashing.

the gatekeeper is the only thing we are using that requires 3 black and to me that is not a compelling enough reason to not be running eva green/ loam or rock lists.Half-man, Half-beast of the Jujinkai, I've read your posts in this thread with great interest, as you have said over and over the things in this post: not broken enough, needs a splash. You go post in the Eva or Deadguy or Rock threads, then.

However, that's not to say you don't have a certain point in that "mono black is lacking something broken." Black has more than just a few cards that are nearly-broken. Dark Ritual is, and always has been, a broken-enabler. If you're searching for something broken in mono-:b:, look no further than first turn Duress into Hymn, or just Hymn, or Bob, or Hyppy, or Nighthawk (who I'm lobbying to be called "Mike Hawk" btw), etc. The point in a deck like this is to have redundancy, so when you drop ritual->Bob and get him StP'ed, you have a Hymn or a Bob for turn 2, and something else nasty for turn 3. By playing fairly against Zoo, for example, you quickly reduce each other to topdeck mode, and since his spells are cheaper, you're probably in trouble, especially with too much disruption in your list. Ritual is what allows the black deck to cast more expensive threats on a sort of parity with the cheap ones that define the format. Bob is what keeps ritual's card disadvantage in check.

Now, that might not be broken enough for you, but one of the things I agree with Hollywood on is that steady, incremental building of nearly-broken stuff is what makes a deck like this work; resilience and utility and inevitability.

I agree, imanujakku, that Gatekeeper isn't very exciting (if he had Flash, that'd be something different). And once I'd realized that, cutting Persecutor and not building a deck around him made a different beast: instead of killing everything with spells/Gatekeeper, I ignore their small threats, target what I can, and race -- Mike Hawk loves this.

[imanujakku]

ritual ->duress-> hymn -> is 3 cards for 3 cards . yeah i cant think of too many decks that would love to face that start but there is no true card advantage there. You just put yourself and your opponent into top deck mode a little faster and the power level of legacy top decks is high.

ritual -> hippy/hawk -> is card disadvantage if its countered with force of will/ daze you are even 2 for 2. if your opponent sends the hippy to the farm you just gave your opponent a 2 for 1.

ritual -> tombstalker can be nice but ive never really had a problem casting tombstalker without ritual especially since i upped the fetch/wasteland count.

i love dark ritual but the lack of great BBB cards means its just a better play in a deck that uses it to flat out win the game rather than start a little better than their opponent.

incrementally building to a win is fine but how does mono black do that in way that makes it better than running a splash ? i guess what im looking for is a reason that does not include budget to not splash a color. to me that reason should be something super powerful for BBB or BBBB mana cast that other decks cannot do and right now i dont see it.

[Michael Keller]

Third, I read this entire thread yesterday before I posted in it. I know why you say The Gate doesn't want Rituals; I know what the gameplan is: steady answers for the opponent's early game, then, and only then, death. My list is much more of a traditional MBA list. The Rituals are a design choice that works. Think of it as a "Daze/No Daze" situation. Additionally, Sensei's Divining Top, to echo posters before me, only gets cast when I have free mana and a dominating board position.

This is a deck that is explicitly different than other mono-black decks for the reasons already mentioned. You cannot even begin to justify running: Howl From Beyond, Bad Moon, three Dark Confidant, and two Hypnotic Specter at all. That not only completely waters the deck down, it almost instantly turns the deck into a big, hot, casual mess.

You are comparing Faerie Macabre with a card that is 100% functionally different in Hypnotic Specter. Faerie Macabre isn't "meant" to hit the board and make someone discard a card at random (if it sticks, for that matter). Faerie Macabre serves as an uncounterable piece of graveyard removal at instant-speed, so I have no clue why you are comparing these two creatures when they are obviously completely different in what they are meant to accomplish, let alone the entire deck.

Again, someone who wants to play Dark Ritual and trade a methodical start to for a fast one. How many times does one have to mention this before it gets old? Dark Ritual does not - nor will it ever - find itself in any list that purports itself to play under the namesake of this deck. Dark Ritual is tempo. Do people not understand what the meaning of tempo (and lack there of) is? This deck does not need a "Bad Moon" or "Howl From Beyond" to win a game. Those cards are referred to as "clutter"; they completely bog down slots that could be so much more useful. I've seen people morph this deck into something it was not meant to be. People are trying to glamorize card slots by making suboptimal choices with cute tricks that only serve very narrow purposes in the most situational of circumstances.

The point is, you have decided to take cards that are proven more efficient and precise at what they are meant to do and whittled away critical slots in order to supplement poor and erratic card choices that have absolutely no place in any competitive Legacy deck.

[Osmin]

My worst MU is against CounterTop when they manage to play combo. Does anyone use some sb-options in such MUs? And what we could do against?

[mujadaddy]

How many times does one have to mention this before it gets old? Dark Ritual does not - nor will it ever - find itself in any list that purports itself to play under the namesake of this deck.Did I not address that?


Dark Ritual is tempo. Do people not understand what the meaning of tempo (and lack there of) is? I've found the pressure generated from that tempo to be helpful in ending games before the opponent can stabilize.

This deck does not need a "Bad Moon" or "Howl From Beyond" to win a game. Those cards are referred to as "clutter"; they completely bog down slots that could be so much more useful.
"Need"? You're right that those cards aren't "needed" in those slots, but as far as being "useful," McFaerie maindeck seems to be throwing stones from inside your house. The list I posted has just as many creatures as the last one of yours I found. You know from playing the deck how many creatures you have available during the course of the game. I wanted to make them better, and bad moon is like a 2-cost equipment that I don't have to equip. Howl would probably be better as some kind of maindeck hate, but I haven't found the perfect hate card that helps every matchup, so I'm testing cards that speed up the win. Just a few of them aren't clogging up hands in my experience.


I've seen people morph this deck into something it was not meant to be. You invented mono-black midrange? Congratulations. Seriously, though, I didn't post a The Gate list.


People are trying to glamorize card slots by making suboptimal choices with cute tricks that only serve very narrow purposes in the most situational of circumstances.Having a creature or two on the board and swinging with it is narrow and situational. Gotcha.

[Michael Keller]

Did I not address that?

No, you haven't, for the reality of the matter is you plainly disregard that fact in the card selections in your list.


I've found the pressure generated from that tempo to be helpful in ending games before the opponent can stabilize.

I've found that that happens to be the very reason why mono-black decks can never escape the abyss of labeled inconsistency. Even in your build, the cards you selected do not come close to punishing an opponent even close to optimally.


"Need"? You're right that those cards aren't "needed" in those slots, but as far as being "useful," McFaerie maindeck seems to be throwing stones from inside your house. The list I posted has just as many creatures as the last one of yours I found. You know from playing the deck how many creatures you have available during the course of the game. I wanted to make them better, and bad moon is like a 2-cost equipment that I don't have to equip. Howl would probably be better as some kind of maindeck hate, but I haven't found the perfect hate card that helps every matchup, so I'm testing cards that speed up the win. Just a few of them aren't clogging up hands in my experience.

Bad Moon is just plain awful. It doesn't nearly give you the advantages an Umezawa's Jitte does; not even close. The fact you actually tried to make Bad Moon sound effective is just plain ludicrous. The card is terrible and provides no real immediate threat what so ever. I'd rather attack for two from a Gatekeeper and save a slot than use a turn to drop an effectively dead enchantment and let my opponent build his resources while I have to spend yet another turn waiting to cast a creature, hoping it lives, then yet another turn in hopes it can attack.

And with your additional logic, I'd be correct in assuming that a deck that plays twenty Relentless Rats is just as effective in a deck that runs twenty of anything else that attacks? Just because you run the same number of creatures I do doesn't make yours immediately more effective. You should always run four Dark Confidant and always run four Hypnotic Specter. Those cards define card advantage (albeit one invariably slower), yet you only want to run them as a total of five cards. Do you not own a set or something?


You invented mono-black midrange? Congratulations. Seriously, though, I didn't post a The Gate list.

Just because a deck runs a single color doesn't automatically make it the same as other decks - of the same color - that see play. I never claimed to have invented anything; you are a bit delusional in that area. I sat down at a Jupiter Games tournament with the rest of my team and took cheap, effective removal spells and paired them with the newest, most effective black creatures the format had to offer. Simple. I built a deck that people liked as a cheap alternative to the more expensive end of the format and as it turns out, this deck can hammer those decks pretty damn well. The objective of this deck wasn't to dump your hand in hopes of crippling an opponent the first turn, so I have no clue why you're even referring to what you built as mid-range when all you've done is change a few cards around with Fourth Edition dime-rares and a bunch of Dark Rituals, which completely nullifies the very term "mid-range" itself. Congratulations on that one.


Having a creature or two on the board and swinging with it is narrow and situational. Gotcha.

You clearly took what I said out of context, and what you posted is false; I laid out what cards were situational and narrow and are ineffective (at best) against the current format (in this hybrid), and from what I gather Dark Ritual, Bad Moon, and Howl from Beyond are not creatures.

[mujadaddy]

No, you haven't, for the reality of the matter is you plainly disregard that fact in the card selections in your list.Go back and read where I said my list is different from The Gate...in every single post.

[Michael Keller]

Go back and read where I said my list is different from The Gate...in every single post.

If you're admitting your list and type of deck is different, why are you posting that type of deck in this thread? Why don't you create a new thread or go here? (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?16889-[Deck)

[EssKay]

How is this deck doing results-wise? I'm interested in possibly integrating some elements into my Deadguy list, but only those which are working as expected. I'm seeing a lot of debate over card choices, but not a lot of lists/reports.

[imanujakku]

the most recent results with similar lists can be found on deck check.

http://www.deckcheck.net/list.php?type=Mono+Black+Aggro&format=Legacy

[Forgottenforce]

I cant speak for Bad Moon or Howl from Beyond but this my list has been doing wonders for me.

////Lands//// 20
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacomb
8 Swamp
4 Wasteland
////Creatures//// 14
4 Tombstalker
4 Nighthawk
3 Nantuko Shade
3 Gatekeeper
////Enchantment//// 3
3 Bitterblossom
////Artifact//// 2
2 Umezawa's Jitte
////Spells//// 21
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Duress
4 Sinkhole
4 Dark Ritual
4 Snuff out

Which is a bastardized tempo version of this deck. Frankly, i looked at your creation Hollywood and was surprised by its lack of stapled black disrupts and substituted it with sac effects for Persecutors drawbacks. I feel that the that the +1/+1 and trample isn't worth losing cards with such power level. Why dilute your deck with sac effects to support a creature a little bigger when you can play Tombstalker and preserve tempo and ld and hand disrupting strategies? Both beaststicks have a four turn clock and evasion and between my fetch count and instants/sorceries powering out 2 Stalkers a game is quite easy and can easily come down earlier then turn four without rituals. The only true pure advantage Persecutor has over Tombstalker is it is less painful when flipped with BOB.
But so far Blossoms have been awesome pseudo fogs and jitte carrying mvps.

Even if i do get flamed for not seeing Persecutor worth sacrificing such powerful disrupt and tempo(i.e. Sinkhole, Hymn and Snuffout) thanks for the ideas! however im not pleased with shade any longer, is there anything that can fill his role?

[Osmin]

Was Faerie Macabre MD answer to Reanimator? And does it deserve slot after banning Mystical Tutor and decreasing number of Reanimators?

[imanujakku]

faerie is in there for iona and some hope versus dredge in game one. i guess its a beater in a pinch. i like it more as sideboard since it slots nicely into the nighthawk/gatekeeper slots when they arent needed.

[Osmin]

Also faerie can help against Survival decks. But I am still not sure it deserves to be in MD.

[AlterEgo]

Things you might want to exile from graveyards:

- Reanimation targets (including Iona, Flamekin Zealot, ...)
- Ichorids, Bridges from Below, Dredge men
- Squee and any other recurring pest (Life from the Loam?)
- Engineered Explosives (at least with Academy Ruins threatening)
- your own Bitterblossoms if facing a Tarmogoyf

I THINK that's at least 50% of any given Legacy meta. Seems a solid choice, given that McFae is almost never a dead card.

[Michael Keller]

Frankly, i looked at your creation Hollywood and was surprised by its lack of stapled black disrupts and substituted it with sac effects for Persecutors drawbacks.

So because this deck is only black, you immediately assume it must play "stapled disrupts" (as you put it) that the deck already plays (Duress, Therapy, and Hymn) but just an increase in count? I'm a little confused what you're trying to say here. The deck already has eleven self-sacrificial removal elements to support Persecutor. Either you remove him or an opponent goes to negative life totals. I'll take those choices any day of week.


I feel that the that the +1/+1 and trample isn't worth losing cards with such power level. Why dilute your deck with sac effects to support a creature a little bigger when you can play Tombstalker and preserve tempo and ld and hand disrupting strategies? Both beaststicks have a four turn clock and evasion and between my fetch count and instants/sorceries powering out 2 Stalkers a game is quite easy and can easily come down earlier then turn four without rituals. The only true pure advantage Persecutor has over Tombstalker is it is less painful when flipped with BOB.

No, it isn't the only advantage Abyssal Persecutor has over Tombstalker. The only time Tombstalker is effective is when you play Dark Ritual (with the inherent lack of fetches, which are unnecessary here anyway), and Dark Ritual is a terrible card in this deck (for the millionth time). The deck does not run Dark Ritual. Abyssal Persecutor is bigger and tramples over Tombstalker, in addition to the trillion other flying creatures the format has to offer. Tombstalker flips for eight damage, requires Dark Ritual to be effective, can be chump-blocked all day by Faeries, does not trample, and if bounced to the owner's hand requires you to "re-Delve" into an already depleted graveyard.

Abyssal Persecutor contains none of these and is far greater a threat than Tombstalker would ever be. I will not waste an extra card slot to drop a big creature turn two or three only to have it removed or bounced thereafter. Seems terrible. You obviously didn't even read what the purpose of the deck is, which is not to dump your hand in hopes of winning the game too early by: Overextending your hand, depleting your resources, and hoping your opponent cannot stabilize in a single turn.

If you all are so keen about running Dark Ritual, by all means go for it. I hate the card in this deck and it does nothing more than waste four slots for something more useful. Does it really hurt that much that none of you have the patience to wait a turn? Discard is already in the deck and there is a smorgasbord of sacrificial removal to go around.

What is so special about Dark Ritual in mono-black decks? Do people not understand why these types of decks are labeled as "inconsistent"? Dark Ritual is without a doubt a catalyst. It has its advantages, sure. But this deck was specifically designed to stay away from the stereotypical mono-black shells that continue to fall into the depths of obscurity like every other single-colored black deck has. I have never done any worse than Top Four with my build because the deck is metagamed more than any other deck I can think of in the format today, and yet still maintains its effectiveness on its own merits. We need to use these slots people for more important resources and remember that (especially with Mystical Tutor gone), it is okay to wait a turn.

Dark Ritual is not a bad card, but it just doesn't fit into the scheme of things here.

[sporenfrosch1411]

Hey Hollywood,

whats ur most recent list :)?
I am stuck in a corner with my testing. What my latest thoughts are:
I kinda feel like the dork beeing mono black. Most of my opponents have much buiseness going on while i got a lot of sorcery speed.
Also i feel like "Just" the 4 Confidants are somehow not enough....i want some more draw/quality engine :(

[AlterEgo]

Most of my opponents have much buiseness going on while i got a lot of sorcery speed.

Seconded. That's my only "problem" about the deck - Aside from Edicts (and rarely McFae and Wasteland) one does nothing to disturb the opponent on his/her turns. To that I must admit, I entirely cut the Smothers (which might still reveal itself to be a mistake).


Anyway, concerning the Ritual/Stalker-debate, I think of "the Gate" as this:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> explosiveness >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Suicide -------------------------- The Gate --------------- Mono-B Control
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< stablility <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

The more or less abandoned archetype of MBC wants to disturb the opponent as much as possible, reach the lategame and then win through some Combo (Helm/Leyline) or big beater. No use for Rituals here.
Suicide on the other hand Disrupts in first turns, then drops a fast and low-costed clock (Stalker, Negator, Nantuko Shade) to win asap. To make this happen ritual is a must play because it enables T1 Duress+Hymn and/or T2 Stalker. Thus sacrificing stability for pure explosiveness.

The Gate lies more or less in the middle between those two extremes. It's more aggressive than MBC, but much more stable than Sui. Additionally it's designed to squeeze as much advantage as possible out of its components - most cards serve more than one purpose (Jitte, Fae, Blossom, Bob, Gatekeeper) or put serious pressure on the opponent (Persecutor, Nighthawk). AND they do this efficiently regarding their costs.

[Michael Keller]

For reference, here is the list I currently run:

The Gate (as of 21JUL10)

[4x] Abyssal Persecutor
[4x] Gatekeeper of Malakir
[4x] Dark Confidant
[4x] Vampire Nighthawk
[2x] Faerie Macabre

[4x] Duress
[4x] Innocent Blood
[3x] Deathmark
[3x] Cabal Therapy
[3x] Hymn to Tourach

[3x] Umezawa's Jitte
[2x] Bitterblossom

[16x] Swamp
[4x] Wasteland


//Sideboard

[4x] Spinning Darkness
[3x] Dystopia
[3x] Nevinyrral's Disk
[2x] Faerie Macabre
[2x] Bitterblossom
[1x] Deathmark

As you can see, there have been no real major changes to the main deck since its inception. Most of the original pieces are still in place, as I have yet to run in to anything worth changing specific cards over.

One thing you may notice is that I have decided to keep Faerie Macabre in my main build as a good supplement for surprise graveyard removal. This may seem a bit odd (especially given Mystical Tutor's recent banning), but there are still many problematic cards in the format (Crucible of Worlds, Life from the Loam, etc.) that really can become a nuisance. Because this deck is focused more on winning an attrition battle instead of an all-out blitz on my opponents' opening hands, I have determined Faerie Macabre to be an invaluable resource based on its uncounterability and surprise factor in many key circumstances. This is probably one of the best cards in the deck, and I keep it as a two-of in the main as an efficient, strategic solution to many inescapable problems.

I've also cut back on the amount of graveyard hate in the sideboard. Faerie serves dual-purpose, which is why a pair in the sideboard (along with the other two main-deck) helps perfectly compliment a full package of instant removal against 'yard "top-heavy" decks. It has worked magnificently thus far.

Deathmark continues to be the focus of discussion as far as boarding it in or running it main. I have had little (if any) trouble crafting the deck to work with this card because of how good it has really been for me. I've found myself in numerous instances taking out a turn one Nacatl or Hierarch, and the more and more redundant this gets the better and better the card becomes. I understand my removal elements are at sorcery-speed, which can be seen as troublesome. It really all depends on how you play your opening hand. Deathmark is a narrow, however effective Magic card that for its cost is rather hard for me to pass up.

There are so many removal spells black has to offer, it makes one wonder why Deathmark has become such a suitable choice for this deck to begin with. The fact is, there are other removal spells that work just as good (and sometimes better) on their own merit. Deathmark in today's Legacy scene is just so cheap and straight-forward, I see it as a very solid and very effective removal element that does not require a "drawback", if you will, as far as a loss of life is concerned. It does, however, require that you target a green or white creature - which just so happens to be the most popular set of colors that creatures sport in Legacy today.

This deck goes turn for turn on an opponent in that it manipulates each individual turn by destroying creatures or discarding cards one (or two) at a time. By drawing the game out a few turns longer, you can then safely proceed to the mid-game plan which allows you to begin establishing threats at an alarming rate. Cards like: Innocent Blood, Deathmark, and Gatekeeper of Malakir are very effective at what they do; it's the style of play one has to get used to in order to play (and appreciate) what this deck is trying to accomplish, and that is to draw the game out a few turns longer than a "traditional" mono-black deck would and force your opponent to succumb to "two-for-ones" that continue to drain his or her resources while amassing your own.

I've been testing this list a great deal on Workstation to some very impressive results. I see no reason (personally) to change anything so drastically as to include cards such as Howl from Beyond and Bad Moon, or restructuring the foundation for which the deck was built on by substituting removal for discard and Dark Rituals. It is just plain rhetoric at this point and I have no interest in those additions and subtractions at all. This is the list that works best for me and again, you'll notice very little changes from the original concept.

[Osmin]

Hollywood, and what about SB? The most interesting for me is Bitterblossom. In what MU it can be useful? Against CounterTop? Uncounterable creatures...
I'm planning to take that build to my local FNM.

[Michael Keller]

Hollywood, and what about SB? The most interesting for me is Bitterblossom. In what MU it can be useful? Against CounterTop? Uncounterable creatures...
I'm planning to take that build to my local FNM.

Bitterblossom is very useful in the control match where everything revolves around as much damage as you can possibly inflict. It effectively prevents spot removal from stunting your resources as each turn you get a creature out of it. They are uncounterable, which also helps a great deal. Being a stationary form of creature production, it is hard to argue how good Bitterblossom can be once it lands. The additional Bitterblossoms are there in the sideboard to supplement the other two in the control (and "Counter-Top") match early on.

Spinning Darkness is one of my favorite cards in the deck. With the removal the deck already packs, it gets that much better against "Zoo". Here, you're gaining life and knocking off one of their creatures. It also can shrink Tarmogoyf, which is the least of your worries anyway; that card should never stick against you.

I've found Dystopia to be ultra-effective in the "Armageddon Stax" match, as well as any other deck running white or green permanents (Elspeth, Enchantress, etc.) to a large extent. It is just a potent weapon that again - works as a stationary form of production.

[Osmin]

Thanks for your answer!
On one tournament two players in a row (BW Pox and then 4c Landstill) side in Engineered Plague against me. So my Blossoms became useless((

[Michael Keller]

Thanks for your answer!
On one tournament two players in a row (BW Pox and then 4c Landstill) side in Engineered Plague against me. So my Blossoms became useless((

Consider boarding in Nevinyrral's Disk against those decks; they are rather top-heavy on enchanments and miscellaneous permanents that could be troublesome. Engineered Plague doesn't see too much play anymore, but it is still effective none the less. If it hits play against you with a Bitterblossom out and you are unprepared to handle it, you should either sideboard appropriately or remove them from the match all together (if you know they are running it in game two, prepare for it in game three).

[sporenfrosch1411]

I really like ur list, Hollywood, thought i personally prefer having Edict over Deathmark - thats a choice that doesnt need to be discussed any further - both have their advantages and can be rly great :)

B U T:
is 16 Swamps rly enough?
I mean, Percy costs 4 mana. I allways like to think playing Percy T4 or T5 is a must to finish off, but to me the landcount seems rly low. U never ran into trouble with that?
i run 22 Lands (3 of which are Wastelands) and am rarely flooded. i mostly sit there playing percy turn 5 with that, cause that 1 Wasteland i allways seem to draw during the first 3 turns goes away for some land of opp :)

[Forgottenforce]

The only time Tombstalker is effective is when you play Dark Ritual (with the inherent lack of fetches, which are unnecessary here anyway), and Dark Ritual is a terrible card in this deck (for the millionth time).

What? No Tombstalker doesn't require Dark Ritual, it requires graveyard food, yes. This "food" is mainly fed by playing disrupts and is aided by Fetchlands. Sure it would make a Stalker come out sooner but that is saying the obvious.


You obviously didn't even read what the purpose of the deck is, which is not to dump your hand in hopes of winning the game too early by: Overextending your hand, depleting your resources, and hoping your opponent cannot stabilize in a single turn.

This strategy has been working wonders for eva green. Being MBA's predecessor, it is now getting all the results while maintaining the same style of play just that extra splash for goyf and Sb options. So saying this isn't viable i would have to disagree.


Do people not understand why these types of decks are labeled as "inconsistent"?
And a deck based around playing a creature you must topdeck an answer to win isn't?

In short, i would rather not have to worry about countering my own creatures and take up valuable spots doing so and keep the fat beatstick as well as the keeping the disrupt number as high as possible.

[Michael Keller]

What? No Tombstalker doesn't require Dark Ritual, it requires graveyard food, yes. This "food" is mainly fed by playing disrupts and is aided by Fetchlands. Sure it would make a Stalker come out sooner but that is saying the obvious.

Yes, Tombstalker DOES require Dark Ritual because:

1.) You play creatures that will either find themselves in play or the Exiled pile.
2.) You play a little slower removal.
3.) You run no fetches.
4.) You run no Dark Ritual.
5.) You run Wasteland.

Putting this all into context, without Dark Ritual, you are better off waiting until turn four or later to drop a Persecutor. It is better than Tombstalker in this deck. Of course it is obvious; that's the reason why I'm bringing it up because you obviously haven't paid attention how the deck functions without Dark Ritual. Tombstalker is awful in this deck.


This strategy has been working wonders for eva green. Being MBA's predecessor, it is now getting all the results while maintaining the same style of play just that extra splash for goyf and Sb options. So saying this isn't viable i would have to disagree.

No, you're wrong. Adding an additional color opens you up to serious color-screw against cards like Wasteland, Stifle, and Moon effects, which we covered earlier as to why we decided to run a single color. Eva Green is not similar and runs a completely different removal and creature suite than The Gate. One plays Dark Ritual, the other doesn't. One plays Tombstalker, the other plays Persecutor. It's as simple as that. I never said it wasn't viable in general, it simply isn't viable in here.

These are two completely different decks and the similarities are few and far in between. Try and grasp this.


And a deck based around playing a creature you must topdeck an answer to win isn't?

This deck runs eighteen creatures, in addition to the multiple tokens Bitterblossom can churn out each turn. The goal of the deck was to optimize card selection by implementing a "two for one" strategy so that the deck's draws are more powerful than the stereotypical Mono-Black shell. Again, this deck likes to "one for one" or "two for one", so generating card advantage is hardly ever a problem. Believe it or not, not every deck needs mana-intensive library manipulation (i.e. Sensei's Divining Top) to be effective, so hopefully that clears that thought.


In short, i would rather not have to worry about countering my own creatures and take up valuable spots doing so and keep the fat beatstick as well as the keeping the disrupt number as high as possible.

Playing Dark Ritual and Tombstalker in this deck is a horrible idea. You fall into the category of players willing to accept a dead draw late-game in order to power out a large creature faster in hopes an opponent doesn't play one of the ninety removal or bounce spells the format has to offer. The deck runs enough disrupt to supplement its forces and doesn't need to deplete its own hand in order to do so. Trading tempo for card advantage at a more methodical rate is a much more effective solution because of the cheap removal the deck runs anyways. Sure, you could Ritual into discard first and nab removal. I hardly ever want my opponent to discard removal; I want to take what makes their deck tick (i.e. a combo piece, a valuable enchantment or artifact, etc.) instead of a singular removal spell. Sometimes, it is the best option. Unfortunately, it is not worth the effort to put in when you simply do not have to overextend your resources to churn a creature like that out; it just isn't worth the card disadvantage.

In short, those valuable spots you refer to are wasted slots dedicated on a faster tempo-based start and not a more drawn-out approach to the first several turns. There's a reason why this deck also places well, and it is in large part that it doesn't need to empty its hand turn two to win the game. Abyssal Persecutor is just better in this deck; I'm sorry.

[sporenfrosch1411]

Notes:

YES, i have gone back to 3 McFaeryBurgers MAIN.
Why? Well, i found her so freaking useful in almost EVERY matchup, the only one i had to board her out was Zoo.
Seriously --> Lands, Loam, T h resh, Reanimator, Thopter-Shit all those Matchups beg for the Faery.


my recent List


// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
18 [ZEN] Swamp (1a)
3 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [WWK] Abyssal Persecutor
4 [ZEN] Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 [ZEN] Vampire Nighthawk
3 [SHM] Faerie Macabre

// Spells
3 [TE] Diabolic Edict
3 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (3)
2 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [OD] Innocent Blood
2 [MOR] Bitterblossom
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
2 [ARE] Duress
2 [ROE] Inquisition of Kozilek

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
SB: 4 [M11] Deathmark
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 2 [5E] Nevinyrral's Disk


Notes to the Sideboard:
PiNeedle -> Any Planeswalker, EE, Thopter, Fetchies, Academy Ruins, Life from the Loam and on and on and on
Deathmark -> .... green and white ....
Leyline -> Reanimator (mull until u have it) , and everything the McFae ist enuff :)
Disk -> Dunno why..... maybe random



EDIT:
After the games i just played: WHAT THE HELL do i do versus White-Stax ?!?!?

EDIT2:
Death and Taxes.... i hate this deck so badly
It f*c*ing s*x ba**s !!!
I never draw a single McFaery and loose to this shitty Sword of Light and Shadow on a crappy Factory---- rly annoying

[Michael Keller]

Just came in 3rd out of 67 at Jupiter Games' 2 Year Anniversary Event with The Gate! I'll have a report up sometime tomorrow (hopefully)!

[mujadaddy]

I humbly await your report. I've come around to your position on "steady vs explosive". I'm especially interested in your sideboarding.

[coraz86]

I'm the guy whose ass you kicked second round yesterday. It was cool meeting you and a blast to watch you play this thing. Gratz on the finish!

I noticed yesterday that you were boarding Spinning Darkness. Being a habitual Eva Green player, I've been meaning to try that myself, but I hadn't gotten around to it. I'm quite interested to hear how that worked for you, if you don't mind.

[JayWhyte1085]

Can we talk Bitterblossom for a second? I'm just not sold on it. In testing, I've felt it's been slow and largely ineffective. Not to say it's a bad card, because it certainly doesn't seem to be that, I guess I'm just not sold on it for this deck. I feel like something more threatening can be put in there. Though a body every turn when you're keeping as much board control as this deck does makes sense, something just doesn't seem to click with it.

My second thought is as follows: I've read most of this thread, and only done informal testing (yes, I'm going to be that guy who posts his opinion without actually testing), but feel like I've got a fairly reliable white-splash version. It doesn't run Wastelands, because, honestly, they're expensive and I don't have any. I'm also currently running Smother MD over Deathmark, but that's quite tentative. I just moved from DC to Chicago, and haven't had a chance to play here yet and see what the meta is, so the Smothers are in there on the off chance that Gobbies or Merpeople are favored out here...who knows, we'll find out. Changes aside, I've tried to stick with the original theme, because frankly, it's awesome.

19 Creatures
4 Abyssal Persecutor
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Dark Confidant
3 Faerie Macabre

7 Removal
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Smother

10 Discard
4 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Hymn to Tourach

3 Umezawa's Jitte

21 Lands
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Scrubland
1 Plains
8 Swamps

Like I said, all I've done is casual testing against proxied-out versions of better decks in the format, and for the most part it seems the name of the game is consistently hating on their hand early, with Bob providing ridiculously good CA to keep the board clean and Persecutor doing his thing. If anything, I've found this to be incredibly consistent. At the end of the day, though, it's only been casual testing, so it could suck awfully. We'll see. Your guys' thoughts are appreciated!

[JayWhyte1085]

Forgot my SB:
4 Leyline of the Void for Reanimator
1 Deathmark, 2 Path to Exile for Zoo, Goblins, Merfolk
3 Sadistic Sacrament for Enchantress? I would imagine Dystopia would work better here?
1 Faerie Macabre for further Reanimator backup
1 Hymn to Tourach to round out the Combo hate?
3 Pithing Needle for Planeswalkers.

What am I forgetting or just being stupid about?

[imanujakku]

i like that list. swords is a solid addition as removal and a way to kill your own percy but when splashing white i find gerrards verdict, stoneforge mystic, and vindicate all want to come along for the ride too and suddenly its deadguy ale :)

you should play around with snuff out. its great for goblin lackeys and lets you do stuff like play hymn to tourach on turn 2 instead of saving mana to smother your opponents goyf that will swing next turn or letting you equip a jitte and kill your opponents blocker in the same turn.

i also found bitterblossom unfocused without contamination or some way to abuse the card.

[imanujakku]

i prefer extirpate over sadistic sacrament which i found to be way to slow without dark ritual.

engineered plague in the sideboard is one i always waffle on. Its very nice against elfball and goblins. merfollk dont seem to care about plague cuz of their 500 lords and it has minor use against dredge, enchantress, thoptertop.

[Michael Keller]

The Gate places third out of sixty-seven at Jupiter Games' Two Year Anniversary Event!

Here is the full report! (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?18348-[Report)

I would wonder if at this point the deck does deserve a spot in the Established Forum based on its growing development and recent performances.

[Osmin]

Good report, thanks!
But you did not write your side-ins and, especially, your side-outs :(

Ans it's not pleasant to flip Soul Spike or Spinning Darkness over Confidant ))

[JayWhyte1085]

Very cool report. It's definitely convinced me to up my MD Deathmarks, but Bitterblossom? Still not sold...how did it end up functioning, as more a consistently-there chump blocker?

[Rico Suave]

What would you say are the advantages of playing this instead of the dozens of other midrange strategies available in the format?

[mujadaddy]

The Gate places third out of sixty-seven at Jupiter Games' Two Year Anniversary Event!

Here is the full report! (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?18348-[Report)
Good stuff.

MWS'ed your exact list from upthread. Unfortunately, my very first game I drew 2 swamps and a Wasteland all game, so I never got a chance to kick my Gatekeeper. Do you think that maindeck Wasteland's EFFECT is strong enough? I noticed in your report that you wastelanded a land here & there, but did it really impact the ending of the game? (I ended up swapping them for 4 more swamps in my brief foray last night -- I really think the deck thrives on 20 swamps) EDIT: I see they had the most effect in the Top 4 Zoo game, but you still ended up losing, hence my question.

Relic: did you ever side it in? Did you ever see it? Did you wish they'd been +2 Macabres? Leylines?

You only had 2 Jittes available for the tournament. In other testing, have you ever found 3 in the deck to be too many? (I went down to two in my build, for +1 Hymn, iirc, as all the other good cards are already being run as 4-of's...)

...away from the tournament, Chalice@1 hasn't ever been much of an issue in my testing (decks w/ Chalice don't pack enough threats to worry about blanking The Gate's 1cc spells, which are all answers), but what about Counter+top? Lots of 1's & 2's in the deck...

Anyhow, congrats.

[Osmin]

but what about Counter+top? Lots of 1's & 2's in the deck...


Yes, the same question. As I understand, two things The Gate could do against on-line CounterTop is Persecutor (4cc is rarely) and Nevinyrral's Disk in G2&3.

[imanujakku]

nice result hollywood. im happy you have made it work. i never could. my only difference was no main deck deathmarks when i started. zoo and other midrange were manageable even with no deathmarks. it was goblins and then these new/old jace powered countertop/landstill decks that made me give up. resolved jace and constant board sweepers is just a nightmare with lowish threat density and no burn.

[sporenfrosch1411]

Yeah, Countertop REALLY sux
A resolved Counterbalance almost Certainly is gg for this Deck. Even if u board in...lets say...a Disk.
He will just force it away with a grin while handling the rest with the balance (o rly)
VS Countertop its almost a coinflip (at least it feels so for me) - either u have that turn 1 Inquisition/Duress/Thoughseize(Whichever u play) or Cabal Therapy AND he happens to have that Counterbalance on his hand, or you loose to him.
Board in Pithing Needle, hope to draw em and put it on saying Divining Top -.- Then watch him laughing, cause he boarded in the Krosan Grip anyway (btw same applies for the disk)
In this Matchup Bitterblossom felt like the most important.... if u can make it Resolve ur in a really good position. Not that it would be easy then, but its "do-able"

In conclusion - i just hate Countertop as a Matchup for the gate -.-

But hey..

You frigging OWN Reanimator (at least g2)
You frigging OWN NO-Based Decks
You frigging OWN Show and Tell piles
You frigging OWN NewHorizons

:)

[Michael Keller]

Let me first say thank you to everyone.

Addressing several key points previously brought up:

@Osmin: You can't be serious, right? In the combo match, what makes you think you have the time to go to turn two (on the draw, no less), drop a Dark Confidant, wait an additional turn, and then hit one of the only two supplementary win conditions in your deck? Not very good.

Against Zoo, Dark Confidant found itself on the way out a few times and I played Spinning Darkness in its stead. I kept them in the Top Four match because he was running more burn and straight-forward damage than typical Zoo decks run. I needed to be able to have a body on board by turn two, and even if it dies, it's one more card in my graveyard to feed Spinning Darkness with. I just have to take my chances with that. It couldn't be any worse than flipping Tombstalker for eight damage. And it was absolutely fantastic when I needed it.

I'm sorry I do not remember every single round's boarding strategy. Very few (if any) of my rounds lasted more than a half hour.

@Mujadaddy: I believe that Wasteland is strong enough (and important enough) in any deck capable of supporting it to run a full set of four. It was very important in most of my critical matches where my opponents' mana foundation seemed fragile. It is especially important in the Bant match, as their mana production is very fragile and Wasteland is just devastating.

I never really ran into any problems kicking a Gatekeeper because of Wasteland. Obviously it could be seen as a problem, but I never ran into it at the tournament. I am considering dropping them out, but the effect really is just too good to pass up for right now. Just watch the second game of my Top Eight match (here (http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/8490746)); I ended up crippling him early and keeping him out of the game long enough to beat him down with a Persecutor.

CounterTop variants are somewhat troublesome, but remember: We run a good amount of discard, so we can knock it out early (or beat it blind if we have to). Additionally, the deck plays Vampire Nighthawk and Faerie Macabre at three cost, and Persecutor at a modest four to boot. It never really has been a problem in the past and I don't foresee it being a problem in the future.

Relic of Progenitus never saw any play and will almost certainly find its way out of the sideboard. It is slower than Macabre (which was very effective) and is a wasted play in my mind. We can basically write them off.

@Rico Suave: The advantages of this deck over other mid-range black decks aren't overly noticeable, but they are there. This deck runs (in my opinion) more efficient removal elements by using sacrificial removal instead of targeted removal. This allows you to take out cards like Progenitus and Emrakul, and is cheap enough to cast without walking into Daze. The important thing to notice in this deck is that many of the cards generate card advantage and strengthen your top-deck instead of relying on searching with mana-intensive library manipulation. I'll be flat-out honest here: I never ran into a situation where I didn't feel confident in my draws and rarely, if ever, went down to zero cards in my hand at any time during that event.

Everything sets everything else up for the rest of the game and it flows very smoothly.

@JayWhyte1085: Bitterblossom was actually really important in a lot of my matches where I didn't think it would be. It allowed me to generate an assortment of creatures against combo (while I slowed it down) to whittle them down enough for a setup with Jitte or Persecutor assault. It was the card that actually saw the most play on Saturday and I am still very much sold on its individual strength in generating card-advantage in a short period of time. It was very powerful and draws a counter more often than not.

I hope this helps some.

[mujadaddy]

Heh. I suppose I was a little jumpy with respect to Wasteland b/c the first match, without a 3rd :b: , was additionally against a mono-black Hexmage deck (he held back a Depths b/c of the Wasteland on the board, but I was holding the Gatekeeper plus Innocent Bloods anyway, then I topdecked a Hymn to take that land.)

My actual question is more along the lines of, excuse the run-on sentence, even with the low curve, your Gate is running 16 black mana sources, and 4 land-destruction spells that take up a turn's land-drop. I'm accustomed to running 19 or 20 swamps, and that's WITH Dark Rituals; do you think that your luck is going to run out eventually? (I'm probably going to reintroduce the Wastelands, as I know they're good, but with 18 swamps. I suppose you already addressed this upthread, and I'll go back and look.)

Re:Relic -- I thought so. Macabres, presumably, will replace them. Ever consider Leyline, or is snaking Ichorid/Bridges/Loam/Sword-of-the-Meek two at a time enough?

Re:Sideboarding & not remembering it -- I've found in my limited testing that you almost don't NEED to sideboard. Bitterblossom is 'rather good' main, but can you explain when you'd actually want four in there?

Another question, this time regarding Spinning Darkness: since it doesn't hit black creatures, have you ever considered Doom Blade, Edict or even Smother? Or is the free-ness the absolute most important consideration? (I'm the type of guy who likes Infest and even Dry Spell when the going gets rough)

Anyhow, congrats again on your continued success, ya :b: luck-sack :laugh:

Edit: This also made me laugh:

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b265/mujadaddy/hollywoodsDisks.jpg

[mX-]

Awesome deck I must say.

I had a monoblack wich I kind of changed some parts to fit the main idea of yours and still work on his old purposes. It turned out a real machine as it could be a threat to combo and aggro decks and, the best part, without having to side much.

I ran the deck with:
Shriekmaw
Diabolic edict
Sword of light and shadow
Phyrexian Arena

It moved to a more control and more reliable deck, as Dark Confident is more risky as I just ran 4 more 5cc than you on the deck. It's too risky to have DC and Bitterblossom at the same time and expect you can deal with it everytime. This is why your sideboard needs so much cards that heals.

Sword of Light and Shadow allow you to recycle removals if things get dirty later, and helps against your enchantment clock

In general it looks rly similar, but the most important thing that changed the whole thing: Extirpate on side. It's really the best option against MANY things, specially when you have mass discard potencial.

Anyway, congratz, this has great chances to reach the stablished decks status. I'm sure going to work more on this deck and try improving it.

[Michael Keller]

There are plenty of different cards you could try, as the deck itself is really just a mid-range, mono-black control deck. There are plenty of options that warrant consideration. My (main) build, however, is very tight and I enjoy the way it runs as it is.

The sideboard needs a major overhaul, however. Relic of Progenitus and Nevinyrral's Disk may get the axe; I'm not sure yet. They have been rather ineffective when their use was called upon and I just found Faerie Macabre to be a more effective solution against decks that use the graveyard for more intentional purposes. Disk is just slow, but is still generally effective when it goes online.

Another thing I am highly considering is upping the number of Soul Spikes to four, as that seems to be a highly underrated weapon against Storm-based decks utilizing Ad Nauseum. You would need to open one to start the game to make it most effective on the draw, and this is where you could potentially force your opponent to stop early and go for less cards. In this instance, you have effectively forced them to play around Soul Spike, which is perfect because it makes them play a little less aggressively on the play and gives you another out and more time to win the game.

It's also not necessarily a dead card against Zoo and faster, more aggressive decks, as it deals damage and gains you life.

At worst, it also gives you four life to keep the game going and stun them at a Storm count of ten or eleven. Most people feel as though Storm combo is this deck's worst match, and it can be. With the loss of Mystical Tutor, the increase of discard in Hymn to Tourach, and Soul Spike in the sideboard being an effective, alternate win condition (as shown this past weekend and in testing), The Gate has drastically increased its chances overall in this particular match; I have no doubt about it.

[Michael Keller]

Update: The Gate is now listed as Established. Great work, everyone!

[mujadaddy]

Great work, everyone!Great work, you, mostly.

18 Swamps, 4 Wasteland has felt just about right.

Right now, my SB looks like this:

3 Faerie Macabre
//.... one main
1 Deathmark
//.... three main
4 Soul Spike
4 Unmask
3 Dystopia

Soul Spike does all the tricks you mention, and is a hell of a lot better finisher than Kaervek's Spite or something similar. I felt that Unmask is a great option to beef up the matchups against "silver bullet" decks (g2, t1, "Unmask, shuffle Emrakul, plz, tap swamp, cabal therapy naming those two Show & Tells I saw," etc.) where you absolutely, positively have to disrupt their hand.

What matchups would you side into all 4 Bitterblossoms? I've been racking my brain on that.

[Deady]

@Hollywood,

I enjoyed your report very much; epic and fascinating! Congrats on placing 3rd and pushing the deck into the established section. You really seem to know your stuff.

[arebennian]

Could you perhaps add to the primer a FAQ section?

Why isn't card X, Y or Z played? (Tombstalker / Grafted Wargear / Dark Ritual in particular)
Why isn't there are splash?

It would be good for those coming into the thread late, or have a passing interest who don't want to ask the same questions that have already been addressed but also don't want to read the whole thread.

[Michael Keller]

As of the moment, I really don't know if a "FAQ" section is necessary; a lot of folks will probably be sifting back through the first few pages. Plus, given the list really hasn't changed all that much and really just shuffles quantitative values around with different cards, I'm really just inclined to keep it the way it is for now. I'm going to update the opening post with the most current, up-to-date list.

I really like Spinning Darkness. The reason it is played is really not just that it deals damage to non-black creatures (really based against Zoo), it gains you life. Once you start generating an overwhelming board advantage, you can remove the previously used cards for something quite efficient. I love that card so much in the sideboard; it really is the perfect fit.

As of the moment, I'm looking at a sideboard of something similar to this:

//Sideboard

[4x] Spinning Darkness
[3x] Dystopia
[3x] Soul Spike
[2x] Faerie Macabre
[2x] Sword of Light and Shadow
[1x] Deathmark

I think this sideboard is a little better rounded out. I have some more life-gain in the form of Sword of Light and Shadow, which not only pumps each creature in the deck, but can almost single-handedly shut down most decks running significant sources of burn and the like.

I'm sure a lot of people may be wondering the side-in, side-out strategy with Dark Confidant as it pertains to the higher cost of spells such as Soul Spike and Spinning Darkness. I'm not too worried about this, based simply on what match-ups those cards will come in for anyways. Soul Spike is really designed as a supplementary win condition against Storm-based combo (with Ad Nauseam), and Spinning Darkness is a card generally sided in against Zoo and faster aggro threats. Dark Confidant generally doesn't live more than three turns (at most), and if he does, I am prepared to take my chances in the second or third game in flipping either of those cards.

Soul Spike is generally a mulligan-aggressive card to stun the combo player early and really nothing more. On the draw, it is hard sometimes to get around the fact that player can go off on the first or second turn if you are not prepared to stop them (which would be more difficult anyways actually being on the draw). It also serves dual purpose in helping against burn and faster aggro as well. Granted, Soul Spike is a card predicated on card disadvantage, but its surprise element and higher life-gain factor make it all the more appealing as it can be cast for free.

I really like it in here.

Bitterblossom is a card I am squarely looking at in the main build. It has been the card I've been most concerned about since first deciding to run it, but the more and more I play it, the more and more I actually appreciate its effectiveness. It is essentially a "must-counter" card, otherwise it just gets out of hand very quickly. With the addition of Sword of Light and Shadow in the sideboard, those Faerie tokens just got a hell of a lot better. Umezawa's Jitte is obviously important, but the Sword is quite effective and compliments the more difficult match-ups quite nicely by: Pumping my creatures, protecting them, recurring them, and gaining me life. Had I played those in my sideboard at Jupiter, I can almost guarantee I would have won that "Top Four" match, hands down. The games really only came down to a few life points for each of us, and that kind of swing the Sword provides is really too good to pass up.

The Sword also provides card advantage by recurring creatures and bringing them back to your hand, which is the whole basis for which this deck exists in the first place.

[bakofried]

How's your Folk MU? I finally managed to get this sleeved together, and lost 0-2 to folk. Although, I must admit, I made a huge play error in the second game.
Also, how does your MD look? Is it the one you played at Jupiter, or the one you have posted further up? Or is it different altogether?

[Michael Keller]

How's your Folk MU? I finally managed to get this sleeved together, and lost 0-2 to folk. Although, I must admit, I made a huge play error in the second game.
Also, how does your MD look? Is it the one you played at Jupiter, or the one you have posted further up? Or is it different altogether?

The current list I play has been listed on the opening post in the thread. I am also in the process of updating that entire post for reference purposes.

Merfolk is a match that you really shouldn't have too much trouble with, depending on how you play the match. If you made a critical play error game two, that obviously cost you severely. It's an aggressive deck that maintains control elements and can sustain the mid-game even through your removal. It's a relatively even match depending on who's on the play game one. This way, you can hit Vial early and get a leg up on resources.

[bakofried]

Do you board anything for the MU?

[unicoerner]

Why did you play Relic over Crypt and just 2?
I saw that deathmark was gold for you and its probably very strtong in the current meta, but it doesn`t stop the scariest turn one play imo " Lakey".

I have the feelings, that we have too many dead cards vs a lot of MU. Counter Thopter and Combo blaning 10-11 of our spells.

What do you think about a Stronghold and a Urborg? I know it was discussed before and it could come into the way of black mana...

[Michael Keller]

Why did you play Relic over Crypt and just 2? I saw that deathmark was gold for you and its probably very strtong in the current meta, but it doesn`t stop the scariest turn one play imo " Lakey".

No, but Innocent Blood does. And Relic was a last minute addition. I stated already they were being cut.


I have the feelings, that we have too many dead cards vs a lot of MU. Counter Thopter and Combo blaning 10-11 of our spells.

I have no idea what you just wrote, but even cards like Faerie Macabre can stop that combo right in its tracks (if that's what you're referring to). This deck doesn't have a lot of dead cards versus a lot of match-ups, so I have no idea what cards you are referring to. Please elaborate.


What do you think about a Stronghold and a Urborg? I know it was discussed before and it could come into the way of black mana...

That would be completely unnecessary and would open you up to Waste and or Moon effects. The deck is a single color. If you can't use the already sixteen (plus) Swamps in the deck to cast pretty much whatever you play, then I have no idea what to tell you. Recursion can come in the form of Sword, and that is a much more effective weapon by gaining you life and protecting your creatures from spot-removal. It pumps every creature in the deck and can provide a massive swing to your advantage.

[Ja-Boo]

I have no idea what you just wrote, but even cards like Faerie Macabre can stop that combo right in its tracks (if that's what you're referring to). This deck doesn't have a lot of dead cards versus a lot of match-ups, so I have no idea what cards you are referring to. Please elaborate.


Vs. Control all your Removal is dead. Deathmark is dead vs Goblin and Merfolk. Just for example.

[Michael Keller]

Vs. Control all your Removal is dead. Deathmark is dead vs Goblin and Merfolk. Just for example.

You are wrong. All of my removal is not dead versus Control; Innocent Blood knocks off a Confidant taking too much life away from your total and allows me to knock-off Abyssal Persecutor to win the game. The same can also be said with Gatekeeper of Malakir. Most control-based decks run green and or white creatures as their primary win conditions, especially in decks like Bant and "CounterTop" variants.

And I am fine with those cards being dead against Merfolk and Goblins; I still maintain eight other sacrificial removal effects. That, however, doesn't excuse the deck from being prepared for the rest of the format, which was obviously the case this past weekend, in which the most active card ended up being Deathmark.

[Seraph2k]

About the Blossom:
Often the people say the blossom is not good. Two weeks ago, I played the deck here in germany and one of the most useful cards were my 3 maindeck bitetrblossoms, they are just amazing. Ok with equipment they are more effective, but sometimes a single bitterblossom without equipment could be enough to win.

[Michael Keller]

About the Blossom:
Often the people say the blossom is not good. Two weeks ago, I played the deck here in germany and one of the most useful cards were my 3 maindeck bitetrblossoms, they are just amazing. Ok with equipment they are more effective, but sometimes a single bitterblossom without equipment could be enough to win.

Bitterblossom is a stationary win condition that produces on its own with very little interaction. It has been very effective in the past and I have only recently begun to realize how powerful and instrumental their inclusion has been.

[JayWhyte1085]

This way, you can hit Vial early and get a leg up on resources.

How are we hitting Vial? As much as I'm loving this deck, the one thing it doesn't have is artifact/enchantment/non-creature-permanent hate. I keep 3 Pithing Needles in the board for this. It saved me against Painter's Servant/Grindstone last week.

[TheMightyQuinn]

I think he means you should be making them discard Vial before they play it. But like he said, this can only be done on the play, so I wouldn't exactly call it an "answer" to Vial.

[unicoerner]

Do we have any solutions vs Planeswalker? Jace is such a pain in the ass. I have really a hard time vs Jacestill. Its blanking Blood and to some degree Gatekeeper and in your list the deathtouches.

To my mind only needle comes

[AlterEgo]

My Sideboard contains 3x P.Needle, 4x Vampire Hexmage, 4x Duress and 3 Oblivion Stone (that like to become Disks)

Should be enough

[Valtrix]

Do we have any solutions vs Planeswalker? Jace is such a pain in the ass. I have really a hard time vs Jacestill. Its blanking Blood and to some degree Gatekeeper and in your list the deathtouches.

To my mind only needle comes

Don't forget that you have discard as well as a lot of aggressive creatures. Thus, if the walker isn't discarded, then even if it hits the field you can likely kill it. (In fact, no walker can survive a hit from abyssal persecutor, which is a plus.)

[Seraph2k]

Today I played here in germany a local tournament with the result 2-1-1 drop.
My maindeck looked like Hollywoods list with one change: -1 Deathmark; + 1Urborg, Tomb...
SB: 4 Leyline (a lot of ichorid and loam in the meta), 4 soul spike, etc. unfortunately NO spinning darkness -> I bought them but they did not arrive fast enough

I faced the following decks:

NO-Pile: Gate is nuts vs NO-Decks. Even his fat hydra couldn't stop me 2-0

MonoR Burn: Not fair g1 he was too fast. game 2 my nighthawks won the game. g3 it was a tight match, but with a persecutor and a nighthawk on the table he could win with his only remaining draw :( bad luck for me. 1-2

Loam: g1: he had a lot of critters and raced me; g2 my faeries and gatekeepers made it. g3: hard game were I could gain the boardcontrol with beating gatekeepers and nighthawks. Unfortunately the extra turns stopped me... only one turn was missing for the victory
Faeries shined to bright, just amazing;) haven`t seen any leyline... 1-1

Rock: g1: he had every removal he could draw. Then goyf, goyf, goyf, knight... win. g2 was better an I gained control and won. g3 the same thing 2-1

Some important thoughts about the deck during my second tournament with this deck.
1. Today was my first tournament with maindeck deathmarks (had only 2). I was very sceptical if they are really good. But during the whole tournament they were never dead cards in my hand.

2. My most wanted card of the day was clearly gatekeeper of M. he performed just amazing

3. the four soul spikes are great. ok I had no spinning darkness, but against the rock I hardcasted 2 spikes in game 3 which were so relevant that they turned a loss into a win;) against burn I haven`t seen them:(

4. 3 jitten are the right number: often opponents kill jitte with jitte or they can handle one. the second one often resolved and sealed the matches

5. my most important point: Something was really annoying: I had to take a lot of mulligans - often more than one in each game. Normally 21 lands are enough, but today I have seen a lot of 0-mana hands. Well I think it was a lack of luck today, but that was the only negative aspect today

6. The Gate is just amazing! (ok everyone knows that;)

[EssKay]

Question for Hollywood: what do you feel are the most important cards to the core of the Gate? I've been playing Deadguy variants for a while now, and while the overall strategy of disrupt early, then drop late bombs is very similar, the Gate seems to have a much better matchup against fast aggro, namely Zoo. I'm already running Bitterblossoms and was thinking of running Persecutors/Therapy, so I feel like my build is heading in that direction anyway.

[Volrath]

How are we hitting Vial? As much as I'm loving this deck, the one thing it doesn't have is artifact/enchantment/non-creature-permanent hate. I keep 3 Pithing Needles in the board for this. It saved me against Painter's Servant/Grindstone last week.

Might gate to phyrexia tickle your fancy?

[Shabbaman]

My Sideboard contains 3x P.Needle, 4x Vampire Hexmage, 4x Duress and 3 Oblivion Stone (that like to become Disks)

Should be enough

Disk doesn't hit planeswalkers.

[Michael Keller]

Disk doesn't hit planeswalkers.

No, but with: Discard, the Attack Phase, Soul Spike, and Dystopia, they should hardly be of any worries to you. I've never had a problem when facing a Planeswalker.

Also, how would Painter's Servant-Grindstone be any sort of a problem to begin with? With all the removal and discard, there is no reason that particular combo should be of any worries to you. The combo relies directly on a single creature to be effective, and this deck predicates itself on removal with a generous supplement of discard. We don't need to hit Aether Vial; all you need to do is match their creatures with removal and creatures of your own.

I'm a little curious as to what you've done to modify your build because there is no reason you should worry about creatures playing with this deck. What artifacts and enchantments are you so concerned about that Dystopia, Nevinyrral's Disk, or Gate to Phyrexia cannot handle?

[mujadaddy]

I'm a little curious as to what you've done to modify your buildJust to back up Hollywood, it doesn't appear at first glance that it would be the case, but the main deck is EXTREMELY TIGHTLY TUNED, and replacing ANY of the cards gives you a very different experience.

This is Hollywood's list & SB:
The Gate (as of 21JUL10)

[4x] Abyssal Persecutor
[4x] Gatekeeper of Malakir
[4x] Dark Confidant
[4x] Vampire Nighthawk
[2x] Faerie Macabre

[4x] Duress
[4x] Innocent Blood
[3x] Deathmark
[3x] Cabal Therapy
[3x] Hymn to Tourach

[3x] Umezawa's Jitte
[2x] Bitterblossom

[16x] Swamp
[4x] Wasteland
//Sideboard

[4x] Spinning Darkness
[3x] Dystopia
[3x] Soul Spike
[2x] Faerie Macabre
[2x] Sword of Light and Shadow
[1x] Deathmark

Maindeck, mine goes -1 Faerie Macabre,-1 Umezawa's Jitte for +2 Swamps. Hollywood has greater % chance of seeing gravehate or that useful Equipment, I have greater % chance of having black mana during the game. However, both decks have 58 of the same cards, and they play identically, except for those few percentages.

I've tried to make a good monoblack deck since before Ice Age, but Hollywood has done it. The more cards I change to experiment, the worse the deck gets. At this point, I'm sold on my 60, and am rather fond of my +15, but that was before Hollywood bit the SoLaS bullet, which is pretty interesting. My sideboard, for reference:


3 Faerie Macabre
1 Deathmark
4 Soul Spike
4 Unmask
3 Dystopia

(Unmask over Spinning Darkness because I'm more worried about the various Show & Tell and other combo decks that are cropping up than an x/3 on the other side)

In conclusion, don't change any cards until you've played the deck A LOT and seen the whole thing working together. Put a little trust in the designer; he's done a great job.

I just wish he'd made it to Columbus!!!

[Michael Keller]

I really wish I had made it to Columbus, too. But, such is life in the military.

I am looking into testing a complete set of Bitterblossoms in the main build. It has always been a card that seems to warp the game over the course of several turns and provides a great deal of card advantage at virtually no cost (one life per turn is almost inconsequential given how direct an assault can be with the removal that is played).

With the addition of Sword of Light and Shadow in the sideboard, we can now create more card advantage in several different ways:

a. We can make our creatures larger and more of an immediate threat.
b. We can protect our creatures from two colors.
c. We can retrieve a creature from the graveyard.
d. We can gain life lost over miscellaneous things like Dark Confidant and Bitterblossom, but being especially important against decks like Zoo and the sort.

The discard plays an important role in methodically depleting an opponent's hand of key spells and allowing you to set yourself up with a win condition. I've even been testing cards like Soul Spike against Zoo and it has been absolutely phenomenal (even though it is a dedicated slot to compliment the combo match). I have also been trying to improve the attrition battle against Zoo since falling to it in the Top Four at Jupiter Games' Two Year Anniversary event. There is no reason this deck should lose to a deck like that when much of the list is hell-bent on rendering those decks incapable of establishing any board presence and forcing them to focus their key burn spells on your creatures rather than you.

I've been trying to systematically weave items into the fabric of the deck that can multitask. Here are some of those cards that serve a critical dual-purpose and can remain effective at any point in the game:

Faerie Macabre
Main Purpose: To cripple an opponent whose deck is largely predicated on using the graveyard as a primary function.
Other Purpose: The ability to fly, attack, and equip at a relatively generous cost.

Innocent Blood
Main Purpose: An early source of sacrificial, non-targeted removal at a very cheap cost.
Other Purpose: To sacrifice Abyssal Persecutor and subsequently win the game. Also used to rid yourself of an unwanted Dark Confidant bringing your life total dangerously low.

Gatekeeper of Malakir
Main Purpose: To force an opponent to sacrifice a creature by "kicking it" (without targeting it).
Other Purpose: To allow yourself to sacrifice an Abyssal Persecutor or Dark Confidant. Also used as a cheap, decent-sized creature to attack with.

Soul Spike
Main Purpose: To stun the Storm-combo player when Ad Nauseam drops their life significantly lower. It provides a means of winning the game aside from discard on the draw Game Two, and gains you life to force them to work a little extra hard in killing you.
Other Purpose: A weapon against decks using numerous burn spells and creatures (i.e. Zoo). Also dodges Counterbalance.

Cabal Therapy
Main Purpose: To cripple an opponent's hand by forcing them to discard (potentially) multiple copies of key spells at a cheap cost.
Other Purpose: To "Flashback" by sacrificing an Abyssal Persecutor and win you the game. Also capable of ridding a Dark Confidant and allowing you to force an opponent to discard again.

Hopefully this helps some. It should also be noted several of these cards utilize some sort of purpose to dispose of Abyssal Persecutor to win you the game. The cards that do this for you are already fantastic on their own merit, which makes the deck run very smoothly.

[Top Deck]

I am already playing a list similar to your's but i guess i was playing it before it was called "the gate". here's my card list:

Beefy Black

[4x] Abyssal Persecutor
[4x] Gatekeeper of Malakir
[4x] Dark Confidant
[4x] Vampire Nighthawk
[2x] Faerie Macabre

[4x] Thoughtseize
[4x] Innocent Blood
[2x] Doom Blade
[3x] Cabal Therapy
[3x] Hymn to Tourach

[2x] Umezawa's Jitte
[2x] Grafted Wargear

[2x] Bitterblossom

[16x] Swamp
[4x] Wasteland

removal:
doom blade i felt was just all around better than death mark due to the efficiency of the card.

another sac outlet:
grafted wargear is a great sac outlet that i have been using. it makes all of your creatures into very fast clocks and bitterblossom + wargear is a near combo in itself.

[Michael Keller]

removal:
doom blade i felt was just all around better than death mark due to the efficiency of the card.

another sac outlet:
grafted wargear is a great sac outlet that i have been using. it makes all of your creatures into very fast clocks and bitterblossom + wargear is a near combo in itself.

Deathmark costs one mana, which is exactly what we're going for in this deck. Doom Blade is only slightly better than Terror and costs two. It (Doom Blade) also forces you to pass your second turn without being able to play anything - including a discard spell - because you're waiting until their "End of Turn" step to cast it on one of their creatures. You would at this point have potentially taken damage and left yourself more open to cards like Daze.

Deathmark ended up saving me in the most critical round of the most critical match of the most critical game of the Jupiter Games tournament. I was stuck on one land in the third game on a mulligan to five, and because I had several of them in hand, I ended up winning the game by knocking-off his threats and stabilizing shortly thereafter.

[EssKay]

Clearly you just need to be running two more basics. Legacy players and their wacky manabases!

[Seraph2k]

Deathmark ended up saving me in the most critical round of the most critical match of the most critical game of the Jupiter Games tournament. I was stuck on one land in the third game on a mulligan to five, and because I had several of them in hand, I ended up winning the game by knocking-off his threats and stabilizing shortly thereafter.

Exactly what deathmark did for me a few days ago in a some critical situations. At the beginning I was very sceptical about this maindeck choice. But hey - I gave it a chance and now I am absolutly convinced, that deathmark is beside our sacc effects an important removal in this deck.

[Michael Keller]

Clearly you just need to be running two more basics. Legacy players and their wacky manabases!

Clearly.

I suppose those two additional Swamps would fix an already lower curve as it is with 26.7% of the deck running basic Swamps and 43.3% of the deck playing spells that cost two mana or less (and don't forget the 33.3% of the total cards requiring only a single Swamp when casting).

Getting to two Swamps in this deck is hardly a feat with sixteen basic lands. Getting to three is effectively no different when you'd only be required to have the third Swamp for Gatekeeper of Malakir.


Legacy players and their wacky manabases!

The deck's land-count is efficient and statistically acceptable (and stable) as it stands. If you choose to run two more Swamps, go right ahead. My mulligan to five that game was the only time I had to do that the entire tournament.

And, I still won.

[EssKay]

That was actually a joke (reference (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?18171-[Free-Article]-Dazed-and-Confused&highlight=dazed+and+confused)). You need to take a break from being super defensive about your list and enjoy the rest of the site.

[Michael Keller]

That was actually a joke (reference (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?18171-[Free-Article]-Dazed-and-Confused&highlight=dazed+and+confused)). You need to take a break from being super defensive about your list and enjoy the rest of the site.

I'm not being super defensive about my list at all; I mentioned if you would like to run eighteen lands, that is completely up to you (see above). However, when you make a comment like that that comes off as overly authoritative with no reason as to why we should all run two more basic lands (even if it is a reference that some of us may not have gotten), I kind of like to challenge comments like that with good reasoning as to why we should fix something that isn't broken (which is why all I did was provide numbers). Remember, not all of us can read minds as to what you were really referencing to, as not all of us have read articles like that or made the immediate connection at face-value.

I do enjoy the rest of the site; it's where I'm able to virtually substitute my caffeine in the morning by reading articles like that to help keep me awake. There's nothing like a good debate to generate intelligent, thought-provoking material to spur the creative juices and get them flowing. In fact, I'm actually writing an article on Deck Theory that provides a little insight on the format for newer players or players considering joining the Legacy community.

[mujadaddy]

I knew EssKay's jocular reference already, but I *AM* actually running two more basic swamps in my list. I'm currently deciding whether or not to cut one (down to 17), but I've liked the stability of ALWAYS having :b::b::b: on turn 4. Eighteen might be too many, but I felt 16 was too few.

[Michael Keller]

I knew EssKay's jocular reference already, but I *AM* actually running two more basic swamps in my list. I'm currently deciding whether or not to cut one (down to 17), but I've liked the stability of ALWAYS having :b::b::b: on turn 4. Eighteen might be too many, but I felt 16 was too few.

Right now I am actually wondering if Wasteland is worth running. I was completely sold on it before, but it seems to be causing more of a headache than anything else to other people when you consider open-handing cards that cost "BB" or "1BB". I'm wondering if that's a change worth consideration over. It is always a wrecking-ball when you start by knocking-out a Tropical Island first and then subsequently Deathmark or Innocent Blood a Noble Hierarch or other producer (which is a crippling play).

Is it worth keeping in? In my testing history, rarely has Wasteland been used as a mana source. Mid to late game, it really becomes unnecessary because you're not necessarily focused on dealing with an opponent's land foundation, but rather other threats like creatures and spells that could be worse. Wasteland does, however, cripple fragile mana foundations, so the question really is do we keep them in, or substitute them for several other sources of mana?

[mujadaddy]

I *always* consider Wasteland a spell when counting a deck's mana. (That's why I went to 18 swamps. The curve being so low is the only reason you can get away with so few lands, relatively.)

Funny that you're backing off of Wasteland when I'm warming to it. Kills Maze of Ith, duals, Dark Depths, Mutas & Factories... those are either otherwise impossible to handle or pretty tough to handle with sorcery-speed removal. Since the deck slow-rolls with massive disruption at low cost, I think they fit.

Have you been perhaps playing a lot of basic-heavy decks lately?

I played a Merfolk deck that dropped Cursecatchers T1 both games; that just wrecked the hands I decided on keeping -- G1, he even got a second Cursecatcher down by like T3. On that note, I find that hands with two+ disruption elements, and preferably discard, are way better than pure aggro hands, and I try to remember to mulligan into disruption. When I *don't*, the opponent either couldn't deal with the deck anyway and the win is tighter but still forgone, or the opponent's good deck whips up on the vanilla aggro deck. The disruption elements are absolutely key to winning against good decks.

[Michael Keller]

I *always* consider Wasteland a spell when counting a deck's mana. (That's why I went to 18 swamps. The curve being so low is the only reason you can get away with so few lands, relatively.)

Funny that you're backing off of Wasteland when I'm warming to it. Kills Maze of Ith, duals, Dark Depths, Mutas & Factories... those are either otherwise impossible to handle or pretty tough to handle with sorcery-speed removal. Since the deck slow-rolls with massive disruption at low cost, I think they fit.

Have you been perhaps playing a lot of basic-heavy decks lately?

Not really. Don't get me wrong: I think Wasteland is fantastic. I also feel as though it is a solid fit in this particular deck. I do, however, begin to question the fact that it produces colorless mana early in the game when you need multiple sources of black mana (at least two) to produce offense. It isn't ever really a problem, but I have actually been considering running eighteen basic lands.

[mujadaddy]

Eighteen will make you feel so comfortable, you'll consider cutting to seventeen :laugh: ...just to save you some time...

[Volrath]

I don't like wasteland, i want to hit BBB as consistantly as i can, sometimes i even have to mull a hand where waste should be a swamp.

i play 18 Swamps, 1 stronghold (great late game, combo's a little with faerie macabre in clearing yards and makes nighthawk a deadly wall) and 1 Phyrexian Tower(t3 persecutors can be pretty savage, also it can get rid of prsecutor/bob in a pinch and can ''protect'' critters you don't want to see farming or exiled)

It works pretty well, and i don't miss them besides the Deathmark Hiaracr,waste Trop play.

Spinning Darkness from the board kills those pesky factories, for free too, and people never see them coming.

[EssKay]

I've been in the same boat lately with Deadguy running 16 lands + 3 Wastes. Sinkhole has largely fallen out of use in that list because it's only useful early and too many decks can recover too easily. Originally I cut Gatekeepers for Smother/Edict, but I'm leaning towards going the other way now.

[urdjur]

I don't like Wasteland as a lone LD effect in general in decks, but another problem for this deck is that it makes Persecutor worse. The appeal of Abyssal Persecutor is that you only need 4 land drops to net you a 6/6. If you use wasteland before you cast it, you'll need 5 land drops instead. It's more than a difference between dropping him on turn 4 or 5. In a deck with 20 land, it means you'll have to see 15 cards. That's like turn 8, if you don't get Confidant. The 6/6 body matters less on turn 8.

I second 18 basics over the 16/4 mana base. This will net you your 4th land around card 12-13 on average, and factoring in Confidant, should give you a smoothe ride into Persecutor, Malakir and the others.

I still haven't really accepted that the Gate doesn't use Dark Ritual. t1 discard, t2 persecutor is good. t1 discard + hymn is crippling. t1 bitterblossom/confidant is pretty spiffy too. I know this is labeled as a "mid-range" deck, but that doesn't mean it can't be a damn fine explosive deck too. Ritual is good with Nantuko and Tombstalker, but that doesn't mean it's bad without.

[Seraph2k]

I think cutting the wastelands is wrong. One of the reasons is simple: On my last tournament I faced an annoying maze which stopped my persecutor from beating. My second critter was a confi (no sac outlet availible at that time). I lost the game due to the fact that I cannot find a sac outlet OR a wasteland. In the other two games against that deck (which I won) my wastelands shut down his mazes. And maze is a card that is played very often in the current meta.

During the last tournament I realized that I made another mistake. Using Urborg, Tomb... On the paper it looked amazing: you can use your wastelands which are sometimes useless to generate black mana. BUT: if your only lands are swamp, urb and wasteland and your op wastes your urborg, you can`t cast gatekeeper, hymn....
the consequence is that my manabase will look like: 17 swamp + 4 wasteland

[Volrath]

So.. if Maze is the only card that you want to waste, wouldn't a pair of Needles from the board be better?.

[gobblor]

Not really. Don't get me wrong: I think Wasteland is fantastic. I also feel as though it is a solid fit in this particular deck. I do, however, begin to question the fact that it produces colorless mana early in the game when you need multiple sources of black mana (at least two) to produce offense. It isn't ever really a problem, but I have actually been considering running eighteen basic lands.

I ran this deck at grand prix columbus missing day 2 losing in the 3rd game of round 9 on a mull to five with 1 swamp. I played against many good decks and a total of 4 pros. With all that said, throughout the day wasteland just stole games all on its own. I would never cut wasteland. The potential to just screw over your oppenent or slow them down was very relevant especially if you hymned away a couple lands early on.

I will admit though, I mulliganed a real lot, probably a couple times each round and many of them due to lack of black mana. I opted to cut a deathmark for a swamp to see how that goes.

[Michael Keller]

I ran this deck at grand prix columbus missing day 2 losing in the 3rd game of round 9 on a mull to five with 1 swamp. I played against many good decks and a total of 4 pros. With all that said, throughout the day wasteland just stole games all on its own. I would never cut wasteland. The potential to just screw over your oppenent or slow them down was very relevant especially if you hymned away a couple lands early on.

I will admit though, I mulliganed a real lot, probably a couple times each round and many of them due to lack of black mana. I opted to cut a deathmark for a swamp to see how that goes.

Congrats on your performance! That's a tough pill to swallow; to just miss the second day on a tough mulligan in the third and final game. I noticed you said you had played some professional players. Would you mind elaborating on your match-ups as well as what worked for you and what didn't?

[mujadaddy]

I don't like Wasteland as a lone LD effect in general in decks, but another problem for this deck is that it makes Persecutor worse. The appeal of Abyssal Persecutor is that you only need 4 land drops to net you a 6/6. If you use wasteland before you cast it, you'll need 5 land drops instead. It's more than a difference between dropping him on turn 4 or 5. In a deck with 20 land, it means you'll have to see 15 cards. That's like turn 8, if you don't get Confidant. The 6/6 body matters less on turn 8.

I second 18 basics over the 16/4 mana base. This will net you your 4th land around card 12-13 on average, and factoring in Confidant, should give you a smoothe ride into Persecutor, Malakir and the others.Those are statistics. In actual play, turn 8 is fine for Abyssal, especially if you've been discarding them and killing all their creatures and wasting their manabase. (I do like 18 swamps, though)


I still haven't really accepted that the Gate doesn't use Dark Ritual. t1 discard, t2 persecutor is good. t1 discard + hymn is crippling. t1 bitterblossom/confidant is pretty spiffy too. I know this is labeled as a "mid-range" deck, but that doesn't mean it can't be a damn fine explosive deck too. Ritual is good with Nantuko and Tombstalker, but that doesn't mean it's bad without.I used to not understand, too, but I'll try to explain. It's counters and white removal. Black aggro has a good game ALREADY against decks that don't sport either of those two -- Dark Ritual becomes win-more. With cheap removal and cheap or free counters, your opponent can gain a huge leg up on you by negating your big turn 1/2 play. What's better, assuming your opponent plays creatures? Land, land, confidant, innocent blood, dark ritual as an opener, or land, land, confidant, 2x innocent blood? Always more business. The deck doesn't need to pop a Ritual to cast an Edict on the draw T1, it packs Innocent Blood to do the job -- it's an efficiency model of tempo advantage.

[pechunato]

I played the same version as Hollywood in a small tournament, with a few changes:

-3 Deathmark, +3 Smother (Just a metagame choice)
-4 Dark Confidant, +4 Phyrexian Arena (I wasn't able to get those Confidants on time)
-1 Wasteland, -1 Umezawa's Jitte, +2 Swamp (Couldn't get the third Jitte, and I wanted more colored mana sources, so I went with 18)

The deck worked really well, winning 2-0 every match; except the one I lost, where I was unable to cast the Arenas due to a mana shortage. They certainly should've been Confidants (or maybe I didn't mulligan enough). Anyways, I'm very satisfied with it's performance, and maybe with the increase in people playing The Gate, we may make it even better.

[Seraph2k]

So.. if Maze is the only card that you want to waste, wouldn't a pair of Needles from the board be better?.

I only named maze here as an example;) mujadaddy named other targets for it. I would never cut those wastes.

@all
Do we have any new experiences with soul spikes? I love them, together with the sp. darkness and the important dystopias in my SB;)
And the other thing I am interested: How are the SoLS from the SB? Experiences?

[Volrath]

SoLas has been a great addition in my war against the Rock.

But Dystopia, Deathmark, gatekeeper and Blood, Nighthawk, Blossom, Dystopia have all been doing a great job in that addition.

Solas on a Nighthawk is dirty..in the good way.

Soul Spike is kind of funny vs Combo, but its cost is to great vs merfolk and zoo, where spinning darknesses shine.

Stronghold and Tower have been working wonders for me, but 6 non-black sources are not that great.

My list.

// Lands
1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold
1 [US] Phyrexian Tower
15 [US] Swamp (1)
3 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
2 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
4 [ZEN] Vampire Nighthawk
4 [ZEN] Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 [WWK] Abyssal Persecutor

// Spells
3 [10E] Deathmark
3 [FNM] Cabal Therapy
4 [OD] Innocent Blood
4 [US] Duress
4 [AT] Hymn to Tourach
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
2 [MOR] Bitterblossom

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
SB: 3 [AL] Dystopia
SB: 4 [WL] Spinning Darkness
SB: 1 [MI] Phyrexian Tribute
SB: 2 [AQ] Gate to Phyrexia
SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle

[gobblor]

Congrats on your performance! That's a tough pill to swallow; to just miss the second day on a tough mulligan in the third and final game. I noticed you said you had played some professional players. Would you mind elaborating on your match-ups as well as what worked for you and what didn't?

I didn't take any notes but ill try to remember the best I can.
Goblins- This match seems pretty good for us as long as we have the removal. I won my games by innocent blood on the first turn lackey followed by some discard, a kicked gatekeeper then a nighthawk with jitte. The second game I cabal therapy for 2 warchiefs on my first turn. I sided in the spinning darkness for I think 3 death mark and a faerie macabre.

Aluren - played against Todd Anderson the first game, multiple wastes lands on his land that sacs for 2 green followed by many discard effects wins. he combos me second game then decides in the third game to board into natural order progenitus combo (bad idea) dystopia gatekeeper innocent blood all suck for him.

4c landstill - played against Owen Turtenwald I never really played this deck before this tournament so I am not sure if this matchup is supposed to be a nightmare or not but it was. I felt like I was never in the game for even a second. He drew more cards than I made him discard he had loads of removal for all my guys and then won with Jace both games.

Team america - This match was kind of akward because I had triple waste land and he had triple sink hole. At one point we both only had like 2 lands around turn 8 or so. I ended drawing more lands ( somehow with the 20 land deck) and I won with persecutor and sacced to a therapy. I came to the conclusion that their deck just doesnt have enough threats to our removal. also the faerie macabre kept him off tombstalker for a turn which was relevant.

New Horizons - Some guy from channel fireball forgot the name. Obviously we win this match I don't think much needs to be said

Zoo - Smashed him game 1 game 2 was really close and he had a sylvan library. when game three ended I had 2 waste lands in the yard and 9 swamps on the field. Somehow i managed to get flooded with 20 lands. I feel like this is a good matchup but, there were just some unfortunate things that happened on my side. I don't want to say that I didn't make any mistakes in these games but there were no major ones that I could think of at the time.

Merfolk - Played against Guadenis something or other i know he had the highest total rating or close to it going into this event. This was the final round to decide day 2. Game 1 he had 3 standstills and won because of them. Game 2 I win with a giant persecutor. Game 3 Imull to five and kept, Spinning Darkness, Cabal therapy, Innocent blood, Vampire nighthawk, Swamp.Seems good except for I never got another land. He kept a creature heavy hand as well and I was fine for awhile because of the innocent blood and spinning darkness but just couldn't get there.

U/B/R faeries - Game was very simple I had a bitterblossom both games on turn two and his win conditions appeared to be vendillion clique and man lands. I also remember having many discard

Can't remember what the other deck I played was, I want to say thopter foundry but, that might have been in a side event however I did win both games on a timely faerie macabre.

Overall I think the deck is very fun and pretty simple to play. the changes I am making are -3 deathmark +1 swamp +2 Diabolic Edict

[sporenfrosch1411]

Some questions, give me ur opinions (please only people who have played the deck)



Whats ur Experience with "not having" Leyline of the Void ?
I see MANY lists not running those - is Faery Macabre really enough :) ?

Is Gate to Phyrexia worth its Sideboard slot ? If so - explain why please.

Is a third Jitte much of an improvement? (have only tested with 2x Jitte ... )

Is Sadistic Sacrament worth to consider in the sideboard, and is it fast enough (vs Enchantress e.G.)

[Seraph2k]

In my SB are always 4 leylines. For me they worked very well here in germany. In nearly every second game you have to face ichorid, loam or a survival in our current meta. And here our leylines (in addition to 2 more macabs) shine so bright.
So here leylines have to be in the SB. I never would go into a tournament without them and together with our removal they are really strong. Oh and if you don`t have them in your opening hand that should not always lead you into a mulligan. Last tournament I had no leyline in my openting 7, but 2 macabs.... they give you often enough time to topdeck a leyline and hardcast it;)

In my experience 3 md jitten are the right numer. I want to see it every game and often one jitte could be handelt by your opponent. Via Pridemage, other jitte or something else. But the second jitte in a game is that one which turns the game into your victory.

[sporenfrosch1411]

I just came home from a relatively small tourney (about 20 Player), heres my quick resumee:


// Lands
17 [ZEN] Swamp (1a)
3 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [WWK] Abyssal Persecutor
4 [ZEN] Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 [ZEN] Vampire Nighthawk
3 [SHM] Faerie Macabre

// Spells
3 [CS] Deathmark
3 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (3)
3 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [OD] Innocent Blood
2 [MOR] Bitterblossom
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
2 [ARE] Duress
2 [ROE] Inquisition of Kozilek

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
SB: 1 [M11] Deathmark
SB: 4 [M11P] Leyline of the Void
SB: 3 [BLA] Vendetta (Random shit to fill up)





VS White-Stax
My opponent plays White-Stax (Smokestack, Armageddon, Trinisphere, 2mana Lands and so on). I pretty much raze him.
First turn Inquisition hits Trinisphere, 2nd Turn Cabal Therapy hits Ghostly Prison. From that point on i drop threat after threat. It pretty much went perfect. Game 2 i board out the Deathmarks and Board in (the total random and useless) Pithing Needle. Well.....the game pretty much went like Game1 , not much to talk about.
2-0

VS "Mono Red Burn-alike pile of randomness ....but with Grim Lavamancer"
He hits me so hard and fast, i just had zero chance. It went something like this:
T1 -> Lava Spike / Lightning Bolt T2 -> Hellspark Elemental T3 -> Hellspark Elemental (or flashback the previous) + Spike / Bolt / Chain Lightning
G2 went almost the same. The Gate S U X versus Burn, let me tell you that :( You have a shitload of removal while ur enemy has a shitload of massage for your face.
0-2

VS NewHorizon
Game 1 i play, not having my Sideboard rearranged, meaning i DONT play my Deathmark Main -.- Well, my own fault and since im not interested in a Loss i just play without telling :/ Game 1 i loose to double Knight of the Reliquary (who were like 12/12) not seeing a single fu**ing Innocent Blood. Game 2 i board in Leyline of the Void and set the Deathmarks back in. Well my opponent pretty much plays on time, since he knows he will loose. Turns like "wait....im thinking whether to Wasteland your Wasteland or not, even though you allready have 4 other Swamps - i really needed patience. But i got the Turn Zero Leyline and can break him to the ground with that and a starting hand of 3 Deathmark ^_^
In the end (we made like 5 turns of G3) it comes down to a 1-1 and Timeout... i was pretty pissed about this. He clearly played on a timeout, but what u gonna do it. You gotta eat what you gotta eat.
1-1 Timeout/Draw

VS Goblins
Yeah. There we go. All hope is lost, now unleash the "rat - like" creatures over the cadaver -.-
Lets say it quick:
G1 T1 Vial, T2 Vial + Lackey, T3 Warchief ye well then 2 Piledriver and stuff -> Mass Swarm hit my face while i was stuck at 1 swamp.
G2 I can hold him back a bit, but eat shit on turn 5.
0-2


Some Thoughts:
Faery Macabre needs a well developed Meta. Random Tier2 Meta doesnt give a sh*t about McFae. I will cut all 3 and go for more threats instead. May be called "bad luck" -> i didnt see Reanimator/ Lands or anything i´d like to have GY Hate in my Maindeck. I will prolly try out 2 Top´s + X next time.

Deathmark is OK. Its not good but OK. I will give 'em a shot next month again - i like em, and if its just to p*ss in NewHorizons face.

Leyline of the Void is super ultra imba versus New Horizon! Seriously! You drop the Leyline, then let him discard his Krosan Grip. Then watch him squirm in front of your creatures while his Knight is a Vanilla-Bear and his Tarmo is a little fly u can squat whenever you want :D

It needs more Discard! I will go for 2 more Inquisition of Kozilek in the Sideboard. They are just AWESOME! I will maintain my maindeck split (2 Duress + 2 Inquisition) though - it played out perfect.

Hymn to Tourach played good as a 3-off. I will maintain that. Resolving 1 Hymn with all the other targeted discard was enough to get rid of what u can. My enemies Topdecking THE HELL - i can´t do nothing. I felt really stupid, when my opp Topdecked his third Swords to Plowshares, removing the THIRD Confidant :D


The Gate has potential, but my play needs to get better, and that Sideboard Thingy ,,,,, hell was i pissed -.-

[ScatmanX]

VS "Mono Red Burn-alike pile of randomness ....but with Grim Lavamancer"
He hits me so hard and fast, i just had zero chance. It went something like this:
T1 -> Lava Spike / Lightning Bolt T2 -> Hellspark Elemental T3 -> Hellspark Elemental (or flashback the previous) + Spike / Bolt / Chain Lightning
G2 went almost the same. The Gate S U X versus Burn, let me tell you that :( You have a shitload of removal while ur enemy has a shitload of massage for your face.
0-2

Now, don't you think that if you had Soul Spike and Spinning Darkness in the SB, it coul be a little different?
This deck really don't need Vendetta, neither 4 Faeries + 4 Leylines...

[sporenfrosch1411]

Vendetta (as i noted down) was just cause i needed 3 more cards since the shop did not have Dystopia, which i planned in the first place to take 3 Slots (versus Solitary Confinement, Ghostly Prison, Tarmogoyf and anything else that fits in green or white)

Soul Spike? Seriously? I dont want 3 Cards for 1. Spinning Darkness - that ones looks pretty nice, will include that next month. What would you cut for it ?
@McFae: Yeah, not in a shitty undeveloped meta like this one :)

[mujadaddy]

Soul Spike? Seriously? I dont want 3 Cards for 1. So an 8-point life swing vs Burn, in exchange for two useless removal spells in your hand, doesn't appeal to you?

[sporenfrosch1411]

Nope it doesnt
Why would i not board removal out versus burn? To keep dead cards in my hand for Soul Spike?!?!

[Squirrely]

First of all, I really love the deck. I stumbled upon it in my quest to build something around Contamination and will probably abandon that and just go ahead and play this.

Obviously, I haven't played the deck as much as some, but I agree Soul Spike seems a bit loose. Isn't three cards (at least) one card too many for the effect? I get that it's a cool trick against ANT, but isn't it just that, a cool trick? Wouldn't a discard spell be better? Again, I haven't played that much with the deck.
Against burn you lose 3 cards to gain 4 life. Assuming a card is worth 3 damage from the burn player you go 1.3 for 3, so it would seem that in that particular matchup Inquisition of Kozilek would get you better value (1 for 1).

2nd, does anyone have experience with Contamination in this deck?

[sporenfrosch1411]

Contamination goes for a more control-ish version. In fact if u play contamination u will most likely need to either cut some discard or some removal. Its a nice mooning with Bitterblossom, but imo many many decks tend to have a basic backup plan, i kinda dont like it :/
Dont forget that contamination just changes the kind of mana lands produce, not their types. so u will e.g. still be able to use maze of ith or shit ....

[Squirrely]

Actually, the fact you can still use abilities can also be used in your advantage. But yeah, you're probably right about Contamination. Too bad though, the card is cool..

[sporenfrosch1411]

Nah, i dont think its THAT bad... it cuts your opp off his mana - no doubt. And this way seen, its a nice lock. But still i think its very slow and demands kind of good drawing.
Also, from my experience today, its mass Krosan Grip everywhere u look (or Oblivion Ring ;O )

[Valtrix]

Contamination

Oring won't work, since they will never have any W to play oblivion ring while contamination is in play. Likewise, they need to have 3-mana open at all times to ever get contamination with grip. not to mention the fact that you'd likely be able to make them discard that grip before you play contamination. Additionally, contamination doesn't care about basics it all. It changes all colored mana from lands to :b:.

That said, the card takes quite a bit to build around, but it is very strong if it can resolve. I was actually thinking that a deck with the new Reassembling Skeleton would be the perfect choice to make contamination work, but that seems pretty poor to me still.

[sporenfrosch1411]

well, the most obvious choice to be played with is Bitteblossom (has been done allready ;) )

At the moment i really consider to go for contamination too, i think i will give it a try, i will just swap 3xMcFae for 3xContamination i guess. The "problem" is that u will pretty much need to play 4x Bitterblossom and still....bitterblossoms gets hated so much. In my experience, rarely could i resolve/keep my Blossom for more than 1 round :D
Maybe Contamination will make me do it^_^

Judged from the Meta ive played versus, Contamination in Fact can be GG for some decks, but its kinda slow..... dunno.... testing will solve mysteries i guess :P
Oh...and yeah... i totally overlooked that land-in-general produce (B) then... which makes it interesting again

What i´d also like to test out is that Helm of Obedience thingy - seems decent.
I think i go for some experiments, i somehow want a combo in TheDeck, i want something that makes this Deck even more of an Harm, which makes an alternative to the Beatdown


Here´s what one could try out:

// Lands 21
18 [ZEN] Swamp
03 [TE ] Wasteland

// Creatures 16
04 [RAV] Dark Confidant
04 [WWK] Abyssal Persecutor
04 [ZEN] Gatekeeper of Malakir
04 [ZEN] Vampire Nighthawk

// Spells 23
04 [OD ] Innocent Blood --> dunno, maybe cut down to 3 or so....
04 [MOR] Bitterblossom
03 [US ] Contamination
02 [ONS] Smother ( / Deathmark / Edict / whatever)
03 [JU ] Cabal Therapy
02 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
03 T H O U G H T S E I Z E
02 [DS ] Sensei's Divining Top

// Sideboard
SB: 03 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 04 [CS] Deathmark
SB: 04 [M11] Leyline of the Void
SB: 04 [FE] Hymn to Tourach

[Michael Keller]

well, the most obvious choice to be played with is Bitteblossom (has been done allready ;) )

At the moment i really consider to go for contamination too, i think i will give it a try, i will just swap 3xMcFae for 3xContamination i guess. The "problem" is that u will pretty much need to play 4x Bitterblossom and still....bitterblossoms gets hated so much. In my experience, rarely could i resolve/keep my Blossom for more than 1 round :D
Maybe Contamination will make me do it^_^

Judged from the Meta ive played versus, Contamination in Fact can be GG for some decks, but its kinda slow..... dunno.... testing will solve mysteries i guess :P
Oh...and yeah... i totally overlooked that land-in-general produce (B) then... which makes it interesting again

What i´d also like to test out is that Helm of Obedience thingy - seems decent.
I think i go for some experiments, i somehow want a combo in TheDeck, i want something that makes this Deck even more of an Harm, which makes an alternative to the Beatdown


Here´s what one could try out:

// Lands 21
18 [ZEN] Swamp
03 [TE ] Wasteland

// Creatures 16
04 [RAV] Dark Confidant
04 [WWK] Abyssal Persecutor
04 [ZEN] Gatekeeper of Malakir
04 [ZEN] Vampire Nighthawk

// Spells 23
04 [OD ] Innocent Blood --> dunno, maybe cut down to 3 or so....
04 [MOR] Bitterblossom
03 [US ] Contamination
02 [ONS] Smother ( / Deathmark / Edict / whatever)
03 [JU ] Cabal Therapy
02 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
03 [ROE] Inquisition of Kozilek ( / Duress / Thoughtseize)
02 [DS ] Sensei's Divining Top

// Sideboard
SB: 03 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 04 [CS] Deathmark
SB: 04 [M11] Leyline of the Void
SB: 04 [FE] Hymn to Tourach

Several things I would like to point out about this list:

a. Inquisition of Kozilek is strictly inferior to Duress. It is even more so than Thoughtseize, which isn't even finding its way into anyone's list.

b. Umezawa's Jitte should be a three-of. It is far too powerful to be cut down to a pair when the card itself provides a massive swing at any point during the game.

c. Hymn to Tourach should find its way into the main build. That card is so versatile at just about any point in a game to only play it sideboard is not allowing you to maximize its potential in the first game, which can cripple an opponent severely. I made that mistake before and I won't again.

d. Contamination is a sideboard card at best, because it simply does not give you enough offense the first game or surprise factor like a Macabre would. Faerie is also an able body, and functions completely different. I think surprise graveyard hate is much more important here.

[sporenfrosch1411]

A: Seeing most of the Legacy Decks curve, i think they are on par. Aside from Jace, FoW and AdNauseum i cant think of that many targets that inquisition doesnt hit.
B: Agree
c: y well, i just need to try without it, mainly to problems of fitting all in this deck - im uncertain what i would cut instead for going to +2 Bitterblossom and +2 Top´s
d: seeing my meta, i think im happy with "just" the 4 Leylines in the sideboard.

Contamination btw sure is not purposed to be offensive. It provides a lock for many enemies that preboard can hardly be handled (except Zoo with Pridemages or so)
I just need to test it, on paper it looks really good in my opinion

[Volrath]

A: Seeing most of the Legacy Decks curve, i think they are on par. Aside from Jace, FoW and AdNauseum i cant think of that many targets that inquisition doesnt hit.


Tendrills, ETW, fof, humility, wog.

The list is simply to big, and you have a ridiculous ammount of critter hate to deal with the creatures you cant pick.

IoK is only playable in Team America, and that deck sucks.

[sporenfrosch1411]

Well, i had the Discard options in exclamation marks for a good reason - im dead tired about all the discussion which of the 3 1-off discard to play. If i allready had my Thoughtseize, id play those and sing "la la la" at all discussing the 1-off discard (aside from therapy, which is a must)
Lets pretend i play the one 1off discard you think is best -> can we skip on to discussing the question wether Contamination is playable?

[Raven1986]

I know you don't want to cotinue the discussion about the 1-off discard but that's exactly the question I was thinking about all day long. At the moment i got a playset of Duress in my Deck because I thought it's not that hard to be not able to target creatures because u got a bunch of creature removal but especially when it comes to t1 lackey I'm not sure if Thoughtseize would be the better choice. Besides often the sorcery speed removal (Innocent Blood) can't handle a lackey which comes into play by vial. On the other hand I think the combination of Thougtseize, Confidant, Bitterblossom and Dystopia (Sideboard) is kind of risky.

[sporenfrosch1411]

Me stating i dont want to discuss it, doesnt mean that YOU cant :D

[Squirrely]

... Thoughtseize would be the better choice. Besides often the sorcery speed removal (Innocent Blood) can't handle a lackey which comes into play by vial. On the other hand I think the combination of Thougtseize, Confidant, Bitterblossom and Dystopia (Sideboard) is kind of risky.

I think Goblins would be the one matchup where Thoughtseize is better than Duress, especially when about all of your removal is not that good against them (Innocent Blood is very good against Lackey T1, but after that Matrons are easy fodder. Deathmark is, well, Deathmark). But even then, the lifeloss seems too much to overcome.


@Contamination: In my limited testing so far, Contamination mattered exactly 0 times. Most of the time I would have a good boardposition already, or I needed to play other stuff. It really seems to be a crippling card, but it's quite slow and requires a good deal of set-up to work properly. I'll keep testing with it though, I'll let you know how it goes.

[Michael Keller]

Well, i had the Discard options in exclamation marks for a good reason - im dead tired about all the discussion which of the 3 1-off discard to play. If i allready had my Thoughtseize, id play those and sing "la la la" at all discussing the 1-off discard (aside from therapy, which is a must)
Lets pretend i play the one 1off discard you think is best -> can we skip on to discussing the question wether Contamination is playable?

Just because you do not own a specific card for the deck doesn't mean you need to short-change yourself on a strong list advocating suboptimal choices. This is one of the few effective Established decks that is far less expensive than just about any of its peers; it's not like you're playing with duals or even fetches here.

[sporenfrosch1411]

seriously, why ignore the exclamation mark?
I dont get it... i allready stated that AS SOON AS THEY REACH MY PLACE i will play them
Well whatever, just to cut this senseless discussion i edited my post

There u go, now it says Thoughtseize

SO CAN WE DISCUSS SOMETHING USEFUL NOW ?
Thanks



Back to contamination:

I played some matches getting the following thoughts:

+ It crippled Stompy and WhiteStax. Can be luck, but i resolved it T3 every one of those 6 games and my opponent was stuck with 2dmg giving Tombs that produce B or a city that even had to be sacced (which he ofc didnt). But smokestack could still be resolved forcing me to sac the contamination every now and then.
+ It was no backdraw versus NewHorizon....but hm.... that MU is nice for me anyway...
+/- It was hard vs zoo. T2 Pridemage in 3/5 of the games made Contamination a "Pridemage-Removal" for 3 :). After the second game, my opponent adepted and srsly kept 3 Mana open, waiting for me to drop a contamination - kinda nice for me cause i had all the time in the world. One would say he is a bad player ;)
- Ichorid laughed @ cc3, then stopped laughing when i boarded in 4 Leylines (3 Contamination out, 1 Gatekeeper out)
- ANT laughed, then ate discard.... then i laughed. Game 2 he laughed after boarding in his discard to discard my discard Oo

To be tested: Goblins, Merfolk, U/W Tempo, Reanimator
So far conclusion: I think without the 2mana Lands or without rituals its too slow....but i havent tested enough yet to stamp it as crap. The question for me atm is:
Is it the threat u want after destroying your opponents first 2 turns (discard, innocent blood, discard). It seems like a nice lock, but i dont like how ur relying on drawing BOTH the contamination and the blossom :/

[Michael Keller]

SO CAN WE DISCUSS SOMETHING USEFULL NOW ?

Starting out with appropriate grammar would be somewhat helpful.

Also, what entices you so much about Thoughtseize? The deck runs so much removal as it is, why pay two life to do something that almost a quarter of the deck does anyway? Duress is effective enough to dismiss any non-creature threats and cards like Innocent Blood and Gatekeeper of Malakir serve dual purpose.

[Seraph2k]

In the next few weeks here in germany are some legacy events, where I want to continue playing the gate. The only problem at the moment is the SB.
Maindeck works perfectly with 17s +4w.

My SB at the moment looks kike that:

4 spinning darkness (amazing)
2 Faerie Mac
2 Dystopia
3 Soul Spike
4 leyline of the Void

During the last tournaments I liked the 4 leyline, they won a lot of games. BUT they need 4 SB slots. And only two dystopia seens to be not enough. So the the SB I`ll try in the next weeks are the following one:

4 Spinning Darkness
2 Faerie M
3 Dystopia
4 Soul Spike
2 XY -

The open slots could be two SoLS. but I didn`t test them (and have none). So maybe you have some test results with them?

@ Thoughtseize vs Duress vs K.Inqu.
My testings and tournament experiences with this decks lead me to 4 maindeck duress (like hollywood). I tried each of those cards, but duress is the best one. We can handle each problematic creature and the loss of life is really not necessary. the inquisition was the worsest cards of all three.... well if you SEE the humility, Planeswalker, etc and you can nothing to against it, that feels always bad.
Duress is just amazing. You can pick combocards like adnauseam, planeswalker, forces....just everything which could ne a problem.

[sporenfrosch1411]

4 Soul Spike
Soul Spike was terrible in my testing. 3 Cards for 1 - i just could never say "yay" after playing it. It felt like too much of a drawback, even though its effect is good it was devastating for my own play


The open slots could be two SoLS. but I didn`t test them (and have none). So maybe you have some test results with them?
Swords of LaS felt too slow for me. The thing is jitte starts to beat when the Swords are just played. It WAS in fact nice when i could get it on the board, protecting from STP and giving a nice bonus on lets say the nighthawk.....but for the most part my other creatures were removed by swords to plowshares anyway (havent tried versus anything red though and my opponents just ALLWAYS had a STP ;) ) so i couldnt return a creature many times. I´d stick to Jitte....its faster and gamewinning as well PLUS it doesnt rely on anything (except u having a beatstick to attach it to).

[Seraph2k]

Ok then I`ll keep my 3 maindeck jitte;)
The amazing thing with the spike is that it comes surprisingly. In the lategame, where I am sometimes, maybe you to, you can easy hardcast them, but thats not their strengh;)
Maybe it keep the three spikes in the SB.

[sporenfrosch1411]

i could never hardcast em :P
It´s so unbelievably expensive @ 7 mana. I think Spinning Darkness is A M A Z I N G though and i will need to fit that one in my sideboard too :) Its so nice to have versus Merfolk (and having something versus merfolk seems like a must play to me )

[bakofried]

Eh, I like Soul Spike, along with Spinning Darkness. There are quite a few red decks in my meta, and turning otherwise useless cards (discard when they're topdecking, and any suicidal cards if I keep them in) into a strong life-swing.
@Hollywood
I was wondering what you're boarding strategies are.

[Khurtz]

@ Hollywood's SB:

I was wondering if you could please toss some logic to me as to why you run Disk over OStone? The only disadvantage I see for ostone is that it requires 5 mana to pop as opposed to the maximum 4 mana it costs to play Disk. Other than that it takes out Planeswalkers and seems a little more flexible. Just curious on your take here.

Other than that, I personally hate Spinning Darkness due to my first tournament with Gate where it did almost nothing, but I'll trust that your meta may be different and I most likely got unlucky. Soul Spike seems pretty awesome but there's maybe 1 Ad Nauseum in my current meta and I haven't really seen how Spike fits in well against other decks other then as a control supplement so I run some different choices.

[Michael Keller]

@ Hollywood's SB:

I was wondering if you could please toss some logic to me as to why you run Disk over OStone? The only disadvantage I see for ostone is that it requires 5 mana to pop as opposed to the maximum 4 mana it costs to play Disk. Other than that it takes out Planeswalkers and seems a little more flexible. Just curious on your take here.

Other than that, I personally hate Spinning Darkness due to my first tournament with Gate where it did almost nothing, but I'll trust that your meta may be different and I most likely got unlucky. Soul Spike seems pretty awesome but there's maybe 1 Ad Nauseum in my current meta and I haven't really seen how Spike fits in well against other decks other then as a control supplement so I run some different choices.

I don't run Disk anymore.

[ZZZ]

I’m very interested in this deck (always had a knack for mono black decks) and I sleeved it up yesterday and really like how it plays.

I do have a couple of questions though.

First of all; how is the Landstill matchup? On paper, it looks horrible. We probably can’t keep up with their card advantage (Bob won’t live long), our sorcery speed removal isn’t going to take care of Factories (Wasteland can but they can save their own Wastelands for ours) and is basically dead in this matchup and we have no way to get rid of bombs like Humility, Elspeth/Jace (we can attack it if we can keep a creature on the board to do so) and Crucible.
The best gameplan seems to be to hit them with discard in the first couple of turns and then follow that up with one threat at a time but you don’t always get hands like that.
This is pure theoretical, I haven’t had the chance to test it.

After playing a couple of games against Zoo yesterday, I immediately wanted at least 1 more swamp in the deck but from what I’ve read here, I’m not the only one.

As much as I like the main deck, some of the sideboard cards seem questionable to me:
- Spinning Darkness: I’ve always liked this card and used it in many casual decks but do we seriously board in 4 cards with cmc 6 in a deck that runs Confidant? Or do you board out Confidant in the matchups where you bring Spinning Darkness in? I don’t think Confidant can be boarded out against Merfolk and Goblins as it’s the only way we can keep up with their Standstills and Ringleaders (apart from discard).
- Soul Spike: If I understand correctly the plan against combo is to let them resolve Ad Nauseam, let them go to 4 life or less and then hit them with Soul Spike? This seems like a horrible plan. There are way too many things that can go wrong with this. TES can go for Empty the Warrens for instance or even if they go for Ad Nauseam, there is no guarantee that they have to go as low as 4 life. And if you flip a Soul Spike with a Confidant, you screwed yourself twice (7 damage + your tech revealed). And even if you can pull it off once, the combo player can easily play around it the next game.
Wouldn’t Thorn of the Amethyst be a better option to bring in against Combo?

I’m probably missing some very legit reasons for these cards to be included and I don’t want to bash your card choices but I immediately thought of these drawbacks when seeing the sideboard and I would like some more insight on why these were chosen over other options.

Thx

[sporenfrosch1411]

I found Landstill to be an ok matchup.
You got Discard and Bitterblossom - both of which is nice versus Landstill..... and for the Jace-playing ones you have Pithing Needle in your Sideboard.
Versus Landstill board out 3 Faery, 3 Deathmark and 1 Gatekeeper and put in 3 Needle´s and 4 Hymn (if u dont have em Main, which you most likely should)
If u allready have 4 Hymn, 3 Cabal Therapy and 4 Duress main - the matchup should be winnable anyway...

Cant agree more on Soul Spike - i found it to be horribly bad too
Spinning Darkness on the contrary can be VERY helpful versus Goblins and Zoo and Merfolk. The Lifeswing from Confi - just hope u wont feel it ;) Also, confi wont live long versus either of these Decks ....

[mujadaddy]

Versus Landstill board out 3 FaeryNo.

[sporenfrosch1411]

Why not?

[ZZZ]

I think there are a lot of cards that can come out before Faery Macabre; why would you leave in Innocent Blood for instance. I think you need to try to draw into more threats than their removal (which probably isn't easy) therefore you probably don't want to board out creatures against Landstill.
I'd probably leave in 2 Deathmarks if I expect them to bring in Preacher.

[Lifeless]

I would absolutely never board out any threats against Landstill.

Recently I tested 60+ games against BUG Landstill w/ Deed because I was really concerned about the match up. Split them almost 50/50 post board. Knowing when to slow-roll threats and when to put them on a fast clock is key. Sideboard SoLS was strong for me and I assume it would be just as good or better against any white or 4 color list.

[Michael Keller]

I should probably go into a little bit more detail on my sideboard as far as what I play and what is working best for me at the moment:

Soul Spike

This seems to be the card where the most speculation dwells. I think it is imperative people understand the explosive nature behind Storm-based combo decks that can just win at any given time. The Gate runs a good portion of disruption, so keeping an opponent from killing you for a turn or two is an acceptable means to aggressively irritate their strategy early in the game. Let's assume you defeat combo the first game with your proactive discard, and you are ready to proceed to the sideboard.

Against Ad Nauseam, on the draw, you are looking dead in the water. Combo is an extraordinarily difficult match to deal with on the draw because now you are allowing the player to Brainstorm or cantrip before you have an opportunity to discard the meat of their hand. When they do this, they can go off in a hurry without any problems. Allow me to cite a specific example from my first round, second game match against Bryant Cook at Jupiter Games' Anniversary event:

Bryant ends up "going off" turn two, when I have no way of stopping him at this point. Let me say that again: No way. Aside from discard, there really is no other way to stun the combo player as you purposely run no acceleration. So, while the combo player is going off, there is a very realistic possibility they will stop at four life or less. The reason for this is due to the inclusion of key cards like Tendrils of Agony, Empty the Warrens, or Ill-Gotten Gains.

Notice the cost of each of those cards.

Storm combo players have a tendency to stop at or near that life total because they fear flipping to their death. I have played countless matches against Bryant where he stops at four or less life. There's no reason not to; they need those cards in order to kill you. So once they decide to cast an acceleration spell or a win condition, you respond by killing them. If a Storm player stops at five life and Empties the Warrens, then that is unfortunate. In that case, there is nothing you'd be able to do anyway, because having them create a million Goblins is going to be hard for anyone to deal with turn two. But, this gives us a legitimate out against them when they do drop to a life total of four or lower and can kill them in response to anything they play.

Remember, you're also gaining four life to potentially cripple them from expending what the have on a storm count of ten or eleven because you gain life as well. Off Ad Nauseam, they are only gaining back what they lost with Tendrils, so recuperating and coming back offensively to kill them is not entirely impossible; I've done it.

The card is also not useless against Zoo; you're giving yourself an opportunity to gain life at a point in the game where losing life becomes more and more dangerous. You're also doing damage at the same time. Spinning Darkness does this (essentially) for free as well, and is a little more reasonable in the cost. You would also want to remove Dark Confidant straight-up for Spinning Darkness against Zoo games two and three. I learned from my match in the Top Four by not siding correctly (I kept Dark Confidant in). Do not keep Dark Confidant in except against Storm with Soul Spike coming in. It is worth taking the risk trying to net more cards while attempting to kill them unknowingly.

Sword of Light and Shadow

This card has been a very useful tool in gaining life and recurring threats. When you have a card (like Umezawa's Jitte) that can completely change the scope of any threat by stacking the problems against an opponent (gaining life, recurring threats, etc.), you're putting them in a position where they need to weigh how important it will be in determining the outcome of a game. This is a very nice compliment to Jitte in that it allows you to continue generating threats while protecting your investments. People usually let this card resolve, which is a massive error; they automatically assume they will knock off any impending threats before you equip it, and that is just not going to happen. There is too much removal and discard for them to deal with and this adds a whole new level of consistency (the key word).

Dystopia

I have fallen in love with this card. It is just so powerful in what it can achieve in such a short order. It rids the board of just about any unwanted white or green permanents the following upkeep, and forces an opponent to overextend his or her resources to stay ahead of the threat race. When they do this, your plan is working as it should: You're inherently forcing an opponent to deplete their resources and remove them one at a time. It is just so multilateral in match-ups that would normally seem troublesome (Enchantress, Mono White Stax, etc.). It's a card that acts with low fuel (like Bitterblossom), because life you lose if offset by the removal you play for any creatures they may play. This is a just an insurance policy to ease the pressure and attack those problematic areas (Enchantments and Planeswalkers).

Pithing Needle

This card is getting some recognition due to cards like Jace, the Mind Sculptor becoming more and more of an issue. I would have to agree with this - to a certain extent. Pithing Needle is quite flexible and most people see it as a good insurance policy against decks running cards like Aether Vial and Jace, respectively. I am beginning to see why this is so powerful in certain match-ups where normally I would dismiss any threats before my opponent has an opportunity to do something realistically harmful to my setup. I'm not concerned at all about creatures, and I think the sideboard can find room for a few of these. They work very well in most circumstances, especially a nice touch following up discard. I will try and find room for three.

These cards have been working great the way they are, but I can see why some people shuffle them between the main and sideboard. I guess it really depends on your meta and what works best for you.

[Lifeless]

@Needle: They are on my short list of cards to add to the board due to it's excellent flexibility. Outstanding against Landstill in testing, they make me feel a little better about Belcher and Survival also.

[Michael Keller]

I've also been very active trying to decide what I am going to do with Bitterblossom. I'm debating whether or not to up the count to three (or even four, depending on how more testing goes). I think the card is severely underrated and has literally provided massive swings in a good portion of my games, especially in the control match.

I know I am going to be questioned for this, but I am seriously considering going with four Faerie Macabre in the sideboard, which would mean this for the main build...

-2 Faerie Macabre.

...and substituting this in its place:

+1 Bitterblossom.
+1 Swamp.

I've been thinking a lot about how good Faerie Macabre is in the main build, but it bothers me a little bit that there are only two in there for utility purposes. I would much rather increase productivity by maximizing the Equipment with Bitterblossom, and help increase the number of Swamps so I never find myself without lands. With four Faerie Macabre in the sideboard, I am placing able-bodied creatures in the deck with the obvious important utility of being able to hit the graveyard at full force with a full set. This would work much better (I think) because it isn't just a dead card with Equipment - or by itself for that matter.

Which brings me to Leyline of the Void: I just don't think it is worth the risk playing in a deck that you would need to mulligan into (really) to be most effective, when Faerie Macabre is almost like a pseudo-mulligan to six if you open a single one to start the game. And, even then, it is still a creature, so it's not entirely dead. Leyline requires too much work and I just feel more creatures help maximize the potential of the Equipment we play.

And, there is nothing wrong with a Sword of Light and Shadow-equipped creature recurring Faerie Macabre each turn. That in itself is savage.

[Lifeless]

-2 Faerie Macabre.

...and substituting this in its place:

+1 Bitterblossom.
+1 Swamp.


My other major testing this weekend was against Survival variants, primarily UG Madness. I was always very happy in pre-board games to open a hand with the Faerie. If the Madness player gets too aggressive and tries to race, a single Faerie can result in a massive blow-out.

The suggestion is tempting, no doubt. I have been meaning to add another black source and the extra blossom would improve game 1 against Landstill. A large portion of the format has no good answer to blossom in game 1.

I'll testing a lot more this coming weekend and I'll be sure to give this a try.

[Michael Keller]

The suggestion is tempting, no doubt. I have been meaning to add another black source and the extra blossom would improve game 1 against Landstill. A large portion of the format has no good answer to blossom in game 1..

I have begun thinking more and more about the Landstill match, and this is a valid reason why I have progressively moved cards like Hymn to Tourach to the main deck, considered Pithing Needle for the board, and am now considering subbing out the Faeries for a more systematic problem in Bitterblossom.

Equipment is also very solid against Landstill because it transforms your threats into an even bigger problem. Each turn pumping your Faeries with Jitte or Sword can be just too difficult for them to deal with.

[コーヒー]

Would running Tombstalker in low quantities here really be a sin?

[sporenfrosch1411]

The question rather is if u need tombstalker
CC7 sux for Confidant and Persecutor is to my experience better in this Deck. To my feeling, Tombstalker comes out Turn 3, in which you most likely want to play Gatekeeper / Nighthawk / another removal / another discard.
T4 or T5 is fast enough i think, and Percy is bigger and has trample :)

[Lifeless]

Stalker hurts Spinning Darkness also. I have never been in a spot where I would have wanted Stalker instead of or in addition to Persecutor.

[Michael Keller]

Would running Tombstalker in low quantities here really be a sin?

I think you should go back and read carefully at several other comments and concerns people had about Tombstalker. To reiterate: It is terrible here. You run no fetches, no acceleration in the form of Dark Ritual to power it out, and it deals an excessive amount of damage to you off Dark Confidant (double that of Persecutor). Tombstalker is ridiculously slow, does not trample, and provides zero synergy with Spinning Darkness.

[darkeraser]

Hello and im sorry for my english im a big fan of black control and mighty queen to , hollywood just a idea , keep on deck faery macabre
-3 death mark - 4 duress
+4 Thoughtseize +1 bitterblossom +2 swoord of light and shadow

u are switching duress to another creature removal if it is needed ,( i have played wolled day vs goblings and merfolks ) of course i did that with out side but them are still a bad pairing with a vial , many tricks to stop us on removal , and u are still keeping the dures ofensive , i am playing 3 biteblossom at the moment and i am in love with them and the 2 swords extras give us many tricks with gate keeper faerys and a clealy ventage with the vampire 4/5 fliying life link death touch and sword special powers , its just an idea i will apreciate some response :) thanks

[ZZZ]

Soul Spike

This seems to be the card where the most speculation dwells. I think it is imperative people understand the explosive nature behind Storm-based combo decks that can just win at any given time. The Gate runs a good portion of disruption, so keeping an opponent from killing you for a turn or two is an acceptable means to aggressively irritate their strategy early in the game. Let's assume you defeat combo the first game with your proactive discard, and you are ready to proceed to the sideboard.

Against Ad Nauseam, on the draw, you are looking dead in the water. Combo is an extraordinarily difficult match to deal with on the draw because now you are allowing the player to Brainstorm or cantrip before you have an opportunity to discard the meat of their hand. When they do this, they can go off in a hurry without any problems. Allow me to cite a specific example from my first round, second game match against Bryant Cook at Jupiter Games' Anniversary event:

Bryant ends up "going off" turn two, when I have no way of stopping him at this point. Let me say that again: No way. Aside from discard, there really is no other way to stun the combo player as you purposely run no acceleration. So, while the combo player is going off, there is a very realistic possibility they will stop at four life or less. The reason for this is due to the inclusion of key cards like Tendrils of Agony, Empty the Warrens, or Ill-Gotten Gains.

Notice the cost of each of those cards.

Storm combo players have a tendency to stop at or near that life total because they fear flipping to their death. I have played countless matches against Bryant where he stops at four or less life. There's no reason not to; they need those cards in order to kill you. So once they decide to cast an acceleration spell or a win condition, you respond by killing them. If a Storm player stops at five life and Empties the Warrens, then that is unfortunate. In that case, there is nothing you'd be able to do anyway, because having them create a million Goblins is going to be hard for anyone to deal with turn two. But, this gives us a legitimate out against them when they do drop to a life total of four or lower and can kill them in response to anything they play.

Remember, you're also gaining four life to potentially cripple them from expending what the have on a storm count of ten or eleven because you gain life as well. Off Ad Nauseam, they are only gaining back what they lost with Tendrils, so recuperating and coming back offensively to kill them is not entirely impossible; I've done it.

The card is also not useless against Zoo; you're giving yourself an opportunity to gain life at a point in the game where losing life becomes more and more dangerous. You're also doing damage at the same time. Spinning Darkness does this (essentially) for free as well, and is a little more reasonable in the cost. You would also want to remove Dark Confidant straight-up for Spinning Darkness against Zoo games two and three. I learned from my match in the Top Four by not siding correctly (I kept Dark Confidant in). Do not keep Dark Confidant in except against Storm with Soul Spike coming in. It is worth taking the risk trying to net more cards while attempting to kill them unknowingly.



As combo player myself, I do not entirely agree with the above. If you go off with Ad Nauseam you will stop when you have the kill (initial mana sources, mana and tutor/tendrils) that can sometimes be at 4 life or less, it can sometimes be at 15 life. If you don't reveal everything you need, you will stop whenever the chance of flipping something that will kill you is high and that will often be around 5 or 4 life (because of Tendrils, EtW, IGG or a 2nd AdN) and then try to find your missing piece(s) with cantrips.
This suggests to me that Soul Spike is a verry narrow and situational card with which you might surprise the unexpected combo player every now and then but I would much rather play a card which is much less situational. I think we can often slow them down a bit with our discard suite, if we can follow that up with Thorn and a decent clock, we should have a chance.
Also boarding out Confidant to bring in 2 Soul Spike seems awful, Bob can draw you into more discard and threats (and hate if you play any) which can win this matchup.


I know I am going to be questioned for this, but I am seriously considering going with four Faerie Macabre in the sideboard, which would mean this for the main build...

-2 Faerie Macabre.

...and substituting this in its place:

+1 Bitterblossom.
+1 Swamp.


I like this suggestion a lot. Faerie Macabre has its use in a lot of matchups, however it often is 'just' a neat combat trick while Bitterblossom can absolutely swing games. I had been considering upping the count to 3 as well. I also think the extra swamp is needed.

I'll also play Pithing Needle in the side as I think we need a way to deal with Planeswalkers and Survival.

[Michael Keller]

As combo player myself, I do not entirely agree with the above. If you go off with Ad Nauseam you will stop when you have the kill (initial mana sources, mana and tutor/tendrils) that can sometimes be at 4 life or less, it can sometimes be at 15 life. If you don't reveal everything you need, you will stop whenever the chance of flipping something that will kill you is high and that will often be around 5 or 4 life (because of Tendrils, EtW, IGG or a 2nd AdN) and then try to find your missing piece(s) with cantrips.
This suggests to me that Soul Spike is a verry narrow and situational card with which you might surprise the unexpected combo player every now and then but I would much rather play a card which is much less situational. I think we can often slow them down a bit with our discard suite, if we can follow that up with Thorn and a decent clock, we should have a chance.
Also boarding out Confidant to bring in 2 Soul Spike seems awful, Bob can draw you into more discard and threats (and hate if you play any) which can win this matchup.

Thorn of Amethyst shuts down your single-cost removal and forces you to have mana readily available in addition to casting creatures the very same turn. it sets you back just as much as it could set the combo player back, because unlike combo, this deck itself also requires all mana readily available to be more proactive than reactive, which Thorn is not (it is a stationary tool used as a stall tactic that allows the storm combo player to build cards in their hands, which is extraordinarily bad). Soul Spike is a multifaceted, proactive card that goes right for the throat against the combo player.

I have played combo extensively myself over the years, and I will agree with you that in fact the Storm combo player will stop with Ad Nauseam once they reach a respectable amount of acceleration, tutor spells, and draw (or cantrip). But thinking logically here for one second: If I were playing Storm and my opponent is on the draw and plays a Swamp and passes the turn, I'm going to laugh in his face while I proceed to (as Bryant Cook puts it), "Jerk off in their face." There is a healthy chance that the Storm combo player will drop to a relatively low life total ensuring they have the right cards to secure the victory. And because we do not run acceleration, every land counts where you can get it (as that was how the deck was designed).

Soul Spike is very effective and has several important uses. Thorn is really only good in decks using accelerants to play non-creature spells themselves and that just isn't good in a deck that needs those cards to keep you in the game.

[Wakkarr]

It seems like relying on your opponent "Jerking off in your face" by going down lower than 5 when they could have won already (which is actually just poor play on their part), is the definition of greedy. Plus it does very little against non ad-naeseum combo decks. To me the whole idea of using Soul Spike is just too cute and that slot could be used for more effective cards.

I think you dismiss Thorn of Amethyst too easily Vs storm. Cmc 2 means that you can play your T1 discard spell, then throw down the Thorn. While it does turn your duress's into 2 mana spells and Hymns into 3 mana, making them pay 1 for Mox/Petal and neutering all of their rituals and doubling the cost of their one mana cantrips is really crippling. Though obv bounce mitigates its effectivness somewhat.

ANT and storm decks in generally are still a pretty mall part of the meta, so with the growing interest in show and tell/doomsday/sneak attack decks, I think running more hand disruption in the board would be preferable to running narrow answers like Spike and Thorn.

[Michael Keller]

It seems like relying on your opponent "Jerking off in your face" by going down lower than 5 when they could have won already (which is actually just poor play on their part), is the definition of greedy. Plus it does very little against non ad-naeseum combo decks. To me the whole idea of using Soul Spike is just too cute and that slot could be used for more effective cards.

I think you dismiss Thorn of Amethyst too easily Vs storm. Cmc 2 means that you can play your T1 discard spell, then throw down the Thorn. While it does turn your duress's into 2 mana spells and Hymns into 3 mana, making them pay 1 for Mox/Petal and neutering all of their rituals and doubling the cost of their one mana cantrips is really crippling. Though obv bounce mitigates its effectivness somewhat.

ANT and storm decks in generally are still a pretty mall part of the meta, so with the growing interest in show and tell/doomsday/sneak attack decks, I think running more hand disruption in the board would be preferable to running narrow answers like Spike and Thorn.

The deck already runs:

a. Hymn to Tourach (3)
b. Duress (4)
c. Cabal Therapy (3)
d. Flashback-Therapy (3)

That's potentially thirteen ways this deck can hit an opponent's hand. Spending too many slots in the sideboard on more discard is just overkill and would really just bog the deck and its subsequent boarding strategy down. The discard aspect of the deck has been woven into the fabric of removal and creatures just perfectly; there is no reason to press the issue and waste slots in that respect.

Sneak Attack-based decks have little credibility in the format right now. First off, Show and Tell is an absolute joke; the deck runs four Gatekeeper of Malakir and four Innocent Blood. Assuming you don't discard their piece before they play it, those creatures will hardly even be a problem. The aforementioned do the job more than enough.

For reference; my Top Eight match against Sneak Attack/Show and Tell. (http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/8490746)

The deck doesn't require any acceleration, and therefore relies solely on lands as the primary source of casting spells. We don't need to set ourselves back in the process by setting ourselves back turns where we cannot play cards in our hand. I'm not looking to take myself down in the process with my opponent. The goal here is to win and win fast. The deck already plays enough discard and that is not a valid excuse to continue to run more cards in the sideboard that only stall the game on both sides and disallow you from playing the cards purposely set in the deck for to begin with against that match.

Soul Spike has already been tested enough and it has been proven effective in several key match-ups, including Zoo and Burn. I've done enough testing with it to realize its maximum potential, and is has been magnificent when I needed it. Thorn is a card - again - utilized in decks that have enough acceleration to generate its own threats, which is not how this deck functions. The trade-off is not worth it in the end, because all you're doing is stalling them a turn or two before they are able to drop L.E.D.'s or artifact mana and allow them to go off shortly thereafter.

[ZZZ]

I don't think I can ever get behind a card that relies on your opponent to take himself down to 4 life when there's a very good chance he can win before that a lot of the time.

Anyway, Hollywood you mentioned you're considering moving the Faerie Macabres to the side to make room for a swamp and a Bitterblossom and to put some Pithing Needles in the side, can I ask you what your sideboard would look like then?

Thx

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

There's always Sadistic Sacrament, right?

[ZZZ]

I don't think SadSac is an option without Dark Ritual and most storm combo decks play Burning Wish nowadays...

[Lifeless]

While I am not 100% behind Soul Spike, it at bare minimum forces your opponent to storm out for 2 more than normal. Against the average storm player you're putting up quite a hurdle.


There's always Sadistic Sacrament, right?

It would usually be several turns too late to be relevant. If you have 3 turns then your other disruption should have put you well ahead already.

[Michael Keller]

I don't think I can ever get behind a card that relies on your opponent to take himself down to 4 life when there's a very good chance he can win before that a lot of the time.

Anyway, Hollywood you mentioned you're considering moving the Faerie Macabres to the side to make room for a swamp and a Bitterblossom and to put some Pithing Needles in the side, can I ask you what your sideboard would look like then?

Thx

As of right now, I am testing several different sideboards and seeing how they work. Here are a few for reference:

//Sideboard [1]

[4x] Spinning Darkness
[3x] Faerie Macabre
[3x] Soul Spike
[3x] Dystopia
[2x] Sword of Light and Shadow

As you can see, this sideboard is predicated largely on focusing on gaining life and maintaining a solid grip on the Zoo match-up, while focusing a little bit on the combo match with Faerie Macabre and Soul Spike, respectively.


//Sideboard [2]

[3x] Spinning Darkness
[3x] Faerie Macabre
[3x] Sadistic Sacrament
[3x] Dystopia
[2x] Pithing Needle
[1x] Hymn to Tourach

This sideboard I've been testing focuses more on the control match by adding in another Hymn to Tourach and a pair of Needles. Sadistic Sacrament is there in an attempt to cripple slower combo decks (like Sneak Attack) and even Survival of the Fittest. Dystopia more often than not does the trick against Survival, but Eternal Witness at times can be a pain.


//Sideboard [3]

[4x] Soul Spike
[4x] Faerie Macabre
[3x] Spinning Darkness
[3x] Dystopia
[1x] Hymn to Tourach

I've looked at this sideboard as being more stringent and cut and dry towards specific match-ups against decks using the graveyard as a primary catalyst, while "gunning for blood" against Storm combo by adding a full set of Soul Spike in addition to Hymn to Tourach.

As far as which sideboard I currently play, I have been running the first one since moving Faerie Macabre to the sideboard and freeing up space in the main build. It seems to be nicely balanced and rounded out. The second one, however, has some great appeal to me. I am interested in further testing the control match and seeing how that goes. Sadistic Sacrament (believe it or not) is actually really good against control. You're able to remove up to three copies of Jace, Standstill, etc., while crippling a specific function of their deck.

EDIT: Updated original post for reference.

[linux-ll-]

What´s about adding Aether Vial? The creatures cc look great for it. Only the Gatekeeper sucks with it...

[dtrooper]

How much would a single Volrath's Stronghold affect this deck negatively? Apart from gaining a very miniscule weakness to Wasteland and Gatekeeper losing a tiny percentage of consistency, I don't see how it can't benefit the deck more than hurt it.

[kramer733]

I think this deck is amazing and it's really good for anybody that wants to start legacy. I mean some of the cards already see play from standard and the transition will be less backbreaking. I like that =)

[EssKay]

I think you should seriously reconsider Leyline of the Void in the sideboard. Faerie does have it's advantages in being a body and therefore being less of a dead draw late in the game, but Leyline absolutely steals games from so many decks in the format. Obvious benefits are against Madness, Reanimator, and Dredge, but it also cripples Lands, Aggro Loam, New Horizons/Thresh, IGG-based combo, and even Zoo (goyf, KotR, Lavamancer). I've been running it in my SB for some time now, and it's a. not that hard to get in your opening hand, and b. able to steal rounds, not just games.

[Lifeless]

What´s about adding Aether Vial? The creatures cc look great for it. Only the Gatekeeper sucks with it...

I can't think of a single card that I'd want to cut for Vial. This deck is not looking to keep mana up on an opponent's turn anyway.


How much would a single Volrath's Stronghold affect this deck negatively? Apart from gaining a very miniscule weakness to Wasteland and Gatekeeper losing a tiny percentage of consistency, I don't see how it can't benefit the deck more than hurt it.

Not much, but I would have a hard time fitting it in. Thing is I just made space for a 17th Swamp (after a lot of games looking for that 3rd black source) and Stronghold would need to be in addition to that. I would probably work in a Phyrexian Tower before Stronghold since it can speed you up if you have to IB away your only creature (or sac a Bob or Persecutor).


I think you should seriously reconsider Leyline of the Void in the sideboard. Faerie does have it's advantages in being a body and therefore being less of a dead draw late in the game, but Leyline absolutely steals games from so many decks in the format. Obvious benefits are against Madness, Reanimator, and Dredge, but it also cripples Lands, Aggro Loam, New Horizons/Thresh, IGG-based combo, and even Zoo (goyf, KotR, Lavamancer). I've been running it in my SB for some time now, and it's a. not that hard to get in your opening hand, and b. able to steal rounds, not just games.

I would love to have Leyline in the board and I've considered it a lot. My problem is that Faerie is notably better in the increasingly common Landstill match-up. Running both does not seem reasonable as neither is particularly good against combo.

[sporenfrosch1411]

Versus NewHorizon, T hresh and Lands Leyline of the Void worked better than McFaery for me.
But ur right, vs Landstill ur better off having another beater

[Lifeless]

Versus NewHorizon, T hresh and Lands Leyline of the Void worked better than McFaery for me.
But ur right, vs Landstill ur better off having another beater

I agree, and I do not like the Lands match-up. Fortunately the cost of Tabernacle is prohibitive.

[Seraph2k]

Leyline is really amazing in our SB. Well - a lot of decks usw leyline which alone is a good card, but together with our discard the leylines are so difficult to handle for the opps.
And the leyline protects us not only from loam, madness, ichorid, etc - no in addition it gives us a protection against the new zoos iona/retainer action.

[Psyqo]

I don't yet own Abyssal Persecutors so I've built a Gate-ish deck that splashes green for Tarmogoyf.

How do you guys feel the Merfolk matchup is game 1, and how do you guys sideboard against Merfolk? I got rocked 2-0 by Merfolk in a small tourney this week, so I'm looking into what I can do to shore up that matchup.