[Deck] The Gate

[sporenfrosch1411]

For me Merfolk allways was rly bad as a matchup.
If they get Vial T1 ... chances are high ur gonna loose to getting swarmed.
Id board in Spinning Darkness (board out deathmark obviously) and needle....

Most of the time i go 0-2 or 1-2 versus merfolk.


EDIT:

Just to get it out of my head and for shits and giggles: what do you think about Phyrexian Negator?
My thought was: i remove creatures like np and there is few burn (except burn and zoo) but... is he good enough?
(please argument, dont just flame it out ;) - i wanna know why YOU would/ would not consider him )

[mujadaddy]

I agree, and I do not like the Lands match-up. Fortunately the cost of Tabernacle is prohibitive.Do you find Tabernacle to be the biggest problem? Macabre'ing the Loams as they're cast, and holding your Wastelands for the _right_ land, is about all you can do differently in the match. If Lands started to be "the" deck, I'd put in 2 or 3 Crucibles in the board.

The problem I see with Leyline (a very strong card, no doubt) is that once you get one in your opener, you generally don't want to see the remaining three. FaerieMac is, in the matches you side it in for, good to see as you draw.

//\\

Merfolk *is* tough -- I rather seeing a full lord draw than multiple Cursecatchers, though, as the 'catchers slow you down multiple turns, from which it's tough to recover.

[Lifeless]

Do you find Tabernacle to be the biggest problem? Macabre'ing the Loams as they're cast, and holding your Wastelands for the _right_ land, is about all you can do differently in the match. If Lands started to be "the" deck, I'd put in 2 or 3 Crucibles in the board.

The problem I see with Leyline (a very strong card, no doubt) is that once you get one in your opener, you generally don't want to see the remaining three. FaerieMac is, in the matches you side it in for, good to see as you draw.

//\\

Merfolk *is* tough -- I rather seeing a full lord draw than multiple Cursecatchers, though, as the 'catchers slow you down multiple turns, from which it's tough to recover.

My comment was not so much about Tabernacle being problematic for the deck, but rather that the deck is expensive. I don't test much against Lands due to it's scarcity.

[mujadaddy]

I see.

That's the same reason I don't pilot my Chains of Mephistopheles / Word of Command deck. :laugh:

[EssKay]

Can't they respond to the Faerie's ability by cycling/dredging to get Loam back?

[mujadaddy]

^^ Yes, which is why you have to be experienced in the matchup, and only pitch Fae when they're tapped out, or pitch it in response to the cycle-draw trigger.

[Esper3k]

Just wanted to say that I really like the idea of this deck - I've always been in love with Suicide builds and have also been trying to get Persecutor to work (my development has actually taken the direction in a very similar path to this one, but I've been put it in an Eva Green shell).

Leyline is absolutely better than Faeries against decks that you have to kill their yard. I can't really think of a better graveyard hate spell other than possibly Extirpate.

Faeries give you flexibility in being able to surprise someone or play it out as a body, but you lose graveyard hating power for it.

Also, to really use Leyline effectively, you have to devote 4 sideboard slots to it, so that's another factor to consider.

[Shawon]

Has Cursed Scroll been considered for the deck? Could it replace Spinning Darkness in the sb?

[sporenfrosch1411]

I think Cursed Scroll is "too small". 2 or 3 damage is a huge difference imo, but i cant deny the fact that Cursed Scroll can hurt multiple Times. But i rather have the lifeleech and "surprise-effect" that Spinning Darkness provides :)
Also, dont underestimate the fact that Spinning Darkness is technically played for free (ur Graveyard is only a resource for this card in the Gate), while the Scroll costs 4 (the first time) to use it for the first time. Also i think its way faster to have 3 cards in your graveyard than having a single card in your hand :)

But hey guys, dont ignore my "Why would YOU consider/not consider Phyrexian Negator" question ^_^

[Esper3k]

Regarding Negator: It would seem that this deck has difficulties with Zoo, similar to how most Suicide variants do. Negator would only seem to make that matchup even worse given how much burn they run.

[AlterEgo]

Regarding Negator: It would seem that this deck has difficulties with Zoo, similar to how most Suicide variants do. Negator would only seem to make that matchup even worse given how much burn they run.

Or more clearly: as long as there's a DTB, that plays Lightning Bolt, Negator is... unplayable.

[sporenfrosch1411]

sounds logical
and what u think about having it main, then boarding it out if u play vs zoo ?
(lets assume u had a 3 or 2 off negator)

[Esper3k]

What would you want to replace with Negator though?

The only thing I could possibly see would be something like Nighthawks, which provide evasion, life gain, and a mild form of removal if need be.

As odd as playing Nighthawks in Legacy is, I just think Negator's time is done. It can't even fight something like a Tarmogoyf without getting massively wrecked.

[sporenfrosch1411]

Whats odd about nighthawk?
Nighthawk is super imba :)

[Shawon]

I think Cursed Scroll is "too small". 2 or 3 damage is a huge difference imo, but i cant deny the fact that Cursed Scroll can hurt multiple Times. But i rather have the lifeleech and "surprise-effect" that Spinning Darkness provides :)
Also, dont underestimate the fact that Spinning Darkness is technically played for free (ur Graveyard is only a resource for this card in the Gate), while the Scroll costs 4 (the first time) to use it for the first time. Also i think its way faster to have 3 cards in your graveyard than having a single card in your hand :)

Thanks for replying. But to defend my point, I think you should also consider flipping Cursed Scroll instead of Spinning Darkness with Confidant. This is very relevant against red-based aggro decks.

[EssKay]

Thanks for replying. But to defend my point, I think you should also consider flipping Cursed Scroll instead of Spinning Darkness with Confidant. This is very relevant against red-based aggro decks.

Although I'm not really a fan of Spinning Darkness, I think you're missing the point, which is to surprise ANT players that get greedy with Ad Nauseum. Cursed Scroll is a great card, but not in this situation. Combo players are going to go off by turn two or three on average, way before this deck can empty its hand and make scroll effective. Better with Bob yes, but not really a replacement.

[The Treefolk Master]

Have you tried Volrath's Stronghold in the deck? Seems quite good in paper.

[Q-Ball]

If you are that worried about ANT, false cure is a BB win-game.

[CorpT]

If you are that worried about ANT, false cure is a BB win-game.


Because ANT doesn't run Silence, Chant or Duress?

[Valtrix]

Although I'm not really a fan of Spinning Darkness, I think you're missing the point, which is to surprise ANT players that get greedy with Ad Nauseum. Cursed Scroll is a great card, but not in this situation. Combo players are going to go off by turn two or three on average, way before this deck can empty its hand and make scroll effective. Better with Bob yes, but not really a replacement.

Because spinning darkness can hit players...? Otherwise them being "greedy" with Ad Nauseam doesn't seem to matter. An ANT player isn't going to be greedy anyway--They're going to draw as many cards as reasonable to win.

[sporenfrosch1411]

@Spinning Darkness VS ANT
Guys, Spinning Darkness is "nonblack creatures" only ^_^
Anyway its for Goblins/Merfolk/Zoo - and it works great.

@False Cure - i dont think this will work vs ANT. On the other hand, ive seen ANT Players just ignoring me, trying to pull their combo w/o protection because they gave me a silence in my 2nd / 1st Turn to prevent duress :D

@Volrath´s Stronghold - i dont feel like adding a single / double nonbasic that will 100% be Wasteland´ed every game ;) Since the gate has no other target the stronghold would ALLWAYS be wasted.... Aside from that, i also think that if u want to return creatures, u should rather go for Sword of Light and Shadow (swap out Jitte number 3 for it). It doesnt "screw" your manabase and provides a good bonus too.....
Though i personally like Fire/Ice more cause it reads "Draw a removal, Destroy target Lord,Prot:Goblins and Prot:Merfolk" :D

[Greenpoe]

I run 2x Stronghold and 1x Urborg and haven't looked back since. Even vs. decks with wasteland, I've often been able to recur at least one or two creatures. Against those without wasteland, it's fantastic. Stronghold wins games. Lategame, you can pull tricks like tap it during your upkeep and play the creature if you've got 5-6 lands. My only complaint is that not tapping for B is troublesome with Gatekeeper.

[Esper3k]

Whats odd about nighthawk?
Nighthawk is super imba :)

Well, it's not exactly a fast clock for something you're spending 1BB on.

It also only trades with Nacatls, Pridemages, etc. and dies to Lightning Bolt/Chain Lightning/Helix.

Regarding False Cure: If you're using it only for AnT, you might as well play Mindbreak Trap instead. Both cards you can't play until they Storm out anyways, but Mindbreak Trap will at least hit other Storm spells like EtW or Grapeshot.

[bakofried]

What's this about only trading with Nacatls?

[AlterEgo]

@Nighthawk:
Spidey has Deathtouch. He eats EVERY creature that he is able to block... yes, he trades with most of them, but few people will attack into a Deathtouch-creature, that can block.
Spidey has Flying. He can carry a Jitte over most defending creatures.
Spidey has Lifelink. He makes Bob and Blossom less painful.

Spidey dies to burn - and so do Bob and Gatekeeper. Why don't you cut either of those? Furthermore, what would you replace Nighthawk with?
Negator? Lightning Bolt has just become thrice as dangerous.
Shade? Also dies to burn unless you always keep BBB open.
Tombstalker? We already have Percy.
Black Knight? Come on.
Who else?

@Cure:
With Mindbreak Trap you have to wait until he actually casts his Tendrils - Cure can be cast anytime during the combo turn and there it makes a Tendrils-Kill impossible, because he would kill himself long before. In the worst case is a black Orim's Chant for BB.
You can respond to Duress, if you feel he could combo out that turn - otherwise it's just as bad as him making you discard the trap.

[sporenfrosch1411]

Here´s my most recent List:

// Lands
17 [ZEN] Swamp
4 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [WWK] Abyssal Persecutor
4 [ZEN] Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 [ZEN] Vampire Nighthawk

// Spells
3 [CS ] Deathmark
3 [FE ] Hymn to Tourach
3 [JU ] Cabal Therapy
4 [OD ] Innocent Blood
3 [MOR] Bitterblossom
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
1 [DS ] Sword of Fire and Ice
4 [M10] Duress


// Sideboard
SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [M11] Deathmark
SB: 4 [M11P] Leyline of the Void (or Faerys - im still not sure, atm its the Leylines...)
SB: 4 [WL ] Spinning Darkness
SB: 1 [DS ] Sword of Fire and Ice
SB 2 [...] Open Slots... undecided yet

Well as u can see, its not THAT much of a difference. Mainly im fine tuning the deck atm.
As many, i also felt like getting up to 21 Lands (i added 1 wasteland)
I think Jitte is nice, but i wanted another equippment and since i dont like the legendary thingy i stick to SoFaI.
Bitterblossom got up to 3, well mainly cause it can break games AND since i got 3 equippment but "only" 16 creatures now, this virtually sets my creature count to 19, making sure there is something to attach my Jitte/Sword
I added Spinning Darkness in my sideboard - they are just awesome vs aggro
I added another SoFaI to my sideboard
I cut the Faerys main....well i think they are ok in the sideboard and as above explained i +1'ed the blossoms to still have many beaters.
I am NOT sure wether to play Leyline or Faerys in my sideboard - they both have some advantages and some disadvantages - need to test it



At the moment im more and more often thinking about going into Pikula/Deadguy or Eva.... i hate having no answers to artifacts and enchantments except discard or GatetoPhyrexia. Vial is so damn annoying, Ghostly Prison is annoying (if 2 hit the board) and the list continues forever

[Seraph2k]

Your 2 open Sb slots should be two dystopia. At the moment I am running three of them and they are so amazing;)
I testes 4 faeries against ichorid a lot of times and in the most cases that was not enough. If you play 4 leyline AND discard the winning chances are much better.
Against loam the faeries are nice with their surprise effect, but I prefer the leylines in my SB.

[sporenfrosch1411]

@Seraph2k
I pretty much agree on those points about Leylines - thats why i run Leylines too atm. You cant deny though, that drawing extra faeries is better than drawing extra leylines ;)

I kinda fear the lifeloss from Dystopia. Is it that good? What are its purposes (aside from green and white creatures)... what would you cut from my SB to get 3 Dystopia in?

[EssKay]

Because spinning darkness can hit players...? Otherwise them being "greedy" with Ad Nauseam doesn't seem to matter. An ANT player isn't going to be greedy anyway--They're going to draw as many cards as reasonable to win.

Gah, was thinking of Soul Spike. My bad for not RTFC before posting. Yeah no idea what the point of spinning darkness is for then. Perish seems way better against...everything. Things like darkness, faerie, Dystopia and Soul Spike are cute tricks, but black has much better sideboard options. These things didn't get to be staples without good reason:


Leyline of the Void
Extirpate
Engineered Plague
Perish


@sporenfrosch1411: go check out the Deadguy thread. My latest list borrows heavily from the Gate. The Zoo matchup has improved dramatically, although I do now worry about Counterbalance, since I cut Tombstalkers.

[Sando]

I just used "The Gate" in a small casual 4 round tournament to get some practice for some of the bigger tournaments I'm planing to go to later (no top 8 due to time constraints). After checking I can get the cards I needed from a friend (and being mocked for my "crazy idea of playing bitter blossom in legacy") I put away my beloved Belcher and played this:

The Gate:

Lands
17 Swamp
4 Wasteland

Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
4 Abyssal Persecutor
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Vampire Nighthawk

Spells
3 Deathmark
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Innocent Blood
3 Bitterblossom
3 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Duress

Sideboard
4 Spinning Darkness
3 Dystopia
4 Faerie Macabre
2 Sword of Light and Shadow
2 Soul Spike

Round 1: Imperial Painter (still a deck apparently)

Game 1: Turn 1 duress after I win the roll strips his Grindstone and leaves him with very little to do for a few turns. Bob on turn 2 put me ahead while I keep striping his hand and waste his Ancient Tomb. Hymn reviled of Bob on turn 5 after he plays recruiter on turn 4 and with a 2 card hand this causes the scoop.

Sideboard notes aren't something I normally keep so all I can remember is I took out the death marks and something for the Spinning Darkness and Soul Spikes so I could kill his painter at instant speed.

Game 2: I keep a hand with two Cabal Therapy's, and a great curve into a knight hawk and gate keeper. He plays turn one painter and I call grindstone and hit. next turn I use the second to strip his Leonin Abunas as he has nothing else and I can Gatekeeper him next turn. He draws a Grind Stone and drops it with a City of Traitors to win.

Game 3: Multiple Hymn's with a first turn Therapy on the Grindstone seal this game quickly.


Round 2: Aeon Bridge (my friend who mocked this terrible deck I have been talking up)

Game 1: I win the roll and proclaimed to curve with a duress, Hymn, Bob, Bitterblossom, Nighthawk, Jitte. Unfortunately he lands a Form of the Dragon of a Mosswort Bridge and zaps my Nighthawk before he starts to hit my life. I manage to rip a second blossom of Bob and get there with a second Nighthawk Jitte pumped and 2 Fairy's. I only pulled this one out by playing around his stifle by not using both Jitte tokens to pump my life in and just using one to go to 2 with my two Blossoms out. This meant that that i could use my duress to strip the stifle from his hand and swing for exactly lethal.

Side: Soul Spike and Macabre's came in.

Game 2: This game was painful. Again the Form hit the board early however he had 3 Pernicious Deed one after the other to insure that I couldn't get enough flyers out to kill him before the Form burned me out.

Game 3: I Duress his hand and see a Form, Vault , Land and Deed. I take the Deed he plays land go, I play Bob, he plays Vault and after 4 looks stops digging. I play another land and pass back. He Show's in the form and my Persecutor make him pack it up with a scowl and make me very happy.

Round 3: 4C New Horizons/Land-still Hybrid with Cunning Wish board (Home Brew)

Game 1: He has no idea what my deck is doing and the discard combined with no targeted removal (nice Mongoose), l make short work of any hope of board position or controlled he hoped to have and I win turn 7 with a Persecutor and almost a full grip with him holding nothing of use.

Side: Brought in the Dystopia and Darkness.

Game 2: After baiting out his counters and systematic removal of his hand I'm looking at at a board state Of his Goyf, Pridemage and Mongoose looking down at my Nighthawk. At this point my friend walks (after showing Burn that 15-15's are to big to race) over looks at the board and my opponents hand and says that I have no way to win this. I smile and say we will see. A path eats my Blocker and I get hit by his team, I run out a Kicked Gatekeeper and the Mongoose bites it. on his turn he Wishes and realises that he has brought in all his removal and left nothing but an edict in the side. He takes it and then attacks with both his Goyf and Pridemage, he then make a play I'm still trying to work out. He uses his wasteland to kill his own Tropical Island to pump Goyf to a 4/5 and I immediately trade with the Pridemage. on my turn I play out my Wasteland and hit Tundra leaving him with just a Tropical in play. The innocence blood and landing a Jitte followed by a Persecutor one turn later lets me wrap that game up before he can get a second land into play.

Round 4: LED-less Dredge

Game 1: He has the nuts and Blows me away under a horde of zombie and Icorids on turn 3. Highlight was Deathmarking his 13/13 Grave-Troll on turn 2, that was a shock to him.

Side: Macabre's and Sword's and Soul Spike's come in for my Hymn's and Duress's

Game 2: He Therapy's my Macabre away turn one before going off turn two again and killing me in short order as his 3 Flashed-Back Therapy's strip my hand down to lands and two draws of land on my part cause me to lose.

Due to my friend beating 4C Hybrid-wish with Aeon (who had beaten Dredge in round 2) let's me come in first with him second and dredge third on tiebreaker's.

This deck is great and I had lot's of interest in it all day. After only playing Belcher and other Combo decks for my Legacy life this was a great change and all through the day I never felt that I would lose until I versed the nuts from Dredge in the final round. The constant 2-1's the deck crates as well as the strong removal make it a nightmare for any deck to deal with. The best card in the deck has to be the basic swamp's because the immunity to Wasteland is huge in formate and every deck I tested against suddenly find their Wastelands a liability. I think Leylines are needed in the Board to help stop dredge, and I would like to test Plague in the broad to help against the tribal matches.

All in all a great deck to play (enough to make me register so I could get better feedback on it, after a year of just being a reader of the forums) and I will defiantly be looking at taking this to some larger events in the future.

[Michael Keller]

All in all a great deck to play (enough to make me register so I could get better feedback on it, after a year of just being a reader of the forums) and I will defiantly be looking at taking this to some larger events in the future.

I'm glad you found it interesting and competitive enough to play. Congratulations also on the good result.

In all seriousness though, the "two for one" strategy the deck utilizes is a very "anti-establishment" approach as to how traditional mono-black decks of the past have played out while subsequently collapsing under their own weight. It's important not necessarily being able to dictate your draws by using library manipulation, but maximizing the efficiency of every draw so that each card you draw can be good business with a very favorable bonus for you. By implementing this strategy, it makes this deck very difficult to beat.

[mujadaddy]

Congrats on the tournament, Sando. Welcome to the Source. I especially liked that Round 3 win!

[Esper3k]

@Nighthawk:
Spidey has Deathtouch. He eats EVERY creature that he is able to block... yes, he trades with most of them, but few people will attack into a Deathtouch-creature, that can block.
Spidey has Flying. He can carry a Jitte over most defending creatures.
Spidey has Lifelink. He makes Bob and Blossom less painful.

Spidey dies to burn - and so do Bob and Gatekeeper. Why don't you cut either of those? Furthermore, what would you replace Nighthawk with?
Negator? Lightning Bolt has just become thrice as dangerous.
Shade? Also dies to burn unless you always keep BBB open.
Tombstalker? We already have Percy.
Black Knight? Come on.
Who else?

@Cure:
With Mindbreak Trap you have to wait until he actually casts his Tendrils - Cure can be cast anytime during the combo turn and there it makes a Tendrils-Kill impossible, because he would kill himself long before. In the worst case is a black Orim's Chant for BB.
You can respond to Duress, if you feel he could combo out that turn - otherwise it's just as bad as him making you discard the trap.

Regarding Nighthawk:

Yes, he's effectively a removal spell that requires your opponent to attack.

The reason Dark Confidant and Gatekeeper are better than Nighthawk is because they actually generate you card advantage, something the Nighthawk does not.

I still stand by my assertion that the Vampire Nighthawk is considerably less powerful than the other creatures in this deck.

Regarding False Cure:
Yes, against Tendrils and only Tendrils is it better than Mindbreak Trap (and it still requires you to leave BB open). However, I would like to reiterate that Mindbreak Trap is more useful against a wider range of combo decks (pretty much all Storm combo) than False Cure is.

[sporenfrosch1411]

The nighthawk is a solid beater that can also be a strong defender and does handle almost every creature. He provides life and can with an equippment on him easily win a game - i think he is totally worth his 4 slots.
Also i srsly would not know what black medium cost creature is stronger and providing so many bonuses and having zero drawbacks :)
(i dont count tombstalker, cause of confidant in here)
If u know one, tell me - i currently am looking for some extra threats that eat Swords to Plowshares / Path to exile and on like a magnet due to their threatening character which makes an opponent want to handle (like confi, nighthawk, jitte and bitterblossom do)

[keys]

I think this deck needs Planar Void sideboard. At least, this is probably the only deck in existence that can run them.

[OneBigSquirrelGod]

Call me crazy.... but a card like Guul Draz Assassin? It gives you something to pump your mana into early on, to prevent you from over-extending, plus the level up abilities are threatening to a lot of decks, such as merfolk, goblins, even pridemage, hierarchs, and it makes for really sweet combat tricks late game.... It would easily be StP/PtE in no time.... Just sayin...

[keys]

5 mana for a creature that can tap for -2/-2 seems pretty weak. I'd rather play Royal Assassin.

[OneBigSquirrelGod]

Wow... last time I checked this is about throwing out ideas... GD Assassin is not 5 mana, however it is 1 mana, + 2, + 2. You may add that up, and it may equal five, but it surely does not mean the same thing... so do we add his multiple Power and toughness' together, making him a 7/7?

He can be very good in a lot of matchups.. it is a medium costing creature. It may not be a turn 1 threat, but I guarantee you drop one against zoo or goblins, they kill him just as fast as they kill a Dark Confidant.

[Aggro_zombies]

Wow... last time I checked this is about throwing out ideas... GD Assassin is not 5 mana, however it is 1 mana, + 2, + 2. You may add that up, and it may equal five, but it surely does not mean the same thing... so do we add his multiple Power and toughness' together, making him a 7/7?

He can be very good in a lot of matchups.. it is a medium costing creature. It may not be a turn 1 threat, but I guarantee you drop one against zoo or goblins, they kill him just as fast as they kill a Dark Confidant.
No, the issue is that you spend five mana, and in response to the last activation, the opponent Plows/Bolts/Helixes/Swords/Terminates/Lavamancers/bounces it. No matter how it's distributed, you've just sunk five mana total into forcing your opponent to discard a removal spell. I mean, yeah, if you have absolutely nothing better to do with your mana, then you're not losing much, but how often does that happen in the early game (coincidentally, the period of time when this guy would be the best)?

Also, he doesn't really kill much until you get him to the maximum level. At his -2/-2 stage, you'll often need to block and then "ping" post-combat to kill something, making him much worse than Grim Lavamancer - and even then, he only kills things with 3-4 toughness.

In most cases, it won't do enough for you to be worth the time and mana you invested in it.

[OneBigSquirrelGod]

Good argument... Just tryin to throw some idea's out there... the card fit the description, all Im sayin... lol

Medium Mana Cost
a card to get path to exiled
possible threat

Maybe "keys" has some other creatures like Royal Assassin?

Will'o the Wisp - Great contender!

-cannot be burned, because of regeneration
-would have to waste a path
-blocks Goyf all day long
-flies, can actually keep tombstalker, Sea Drake, Clique, Sower,
-its a one drop
-not too mana intensive

This is not a joke though, I am not trying to take up space on the thread, but it has potential.... that is 6 valid plus's to running it...

[Aggro_zombies]

Good argument... Just tryin to throw some idea's out there... the card fit the description, all Im sayin... lol

Medium Mana Cost
a card to get path to exiled
possible threat

Maybe "keys" has some other creatures like Royal Assassin?

Will'o the Wisp - Great contender!

-cannot be burned, because of regeneration
-would have to waste a path
-blocks Goyf all day long
-flies, can actually keep tombstalker, Sea Drake, Clique, Sower,
-its a one drop
-not too mana intensive

This is not a joke though, I am not trying to take up space on the thread, but it has potential.... that is 6 valid plus's to running it...
This deck is not interested in running a purely defensive creature, much less an on-color Kor Haven. To make this deck, creatures need to pass a test: they must provide card advantage, a good clock, or both.

The issue with Wisp is that it doesn't really generate card advantage, since you can't punish the opponent for over-committing to get past it (in fact, you don't want the opponent to do that because it makes your Bloods and Gatekeepers worse). Unlike Persecutor, the Wisp can't provide any clock (unless you use a charged Jitte, which seems like a poor use of the card), so it basically fails both tests.

Something more along the lines of what he's looking for would be Bloodghast. It has an underwhelming body, but it pings for two every time it connects, trades with most of the utility creatures in the format, and will force the opponent to hold back blockers at low life. People generally underestimate it because it doesn't hit very hard, but once they get down to 10, forgetting about it can be costly (think Vengivine, but smaller). It works well with Therapy and Innocent Blood. The only way to get rid of it is Path/Plow, but who wants to Path a 2/1? Who wants to bring in otherwise dead graveyard hate for a couple of 2/1s?

The issue is what to cut for it. I don't see anything in the OP list I'd want to take out for Vvine Jr.

[Seraph2k]

@Sporenfrosch
just try 2 or better 3 dystopia - you will love them too. Here in our german meta dystopia is amazing it eats goyfs, elspeths, annoying enchantments with an acceptable loss of life.

But at my last tournament i realized another problem: the goblin matchup. Ok in both games i was screwed on two lands thanks to his ports, but hey after 2 ringleaders there was absolutly no chance of winning one game. I know on the paper the matchup seems to be an 50%-matchup, but on sunday the reality one again showed how fast goblins can be even if you can kill his first turn lackys:(

[sporenfrosch1411]

@Seraph2k
I pretty much had the exact same experience some weeks ago on a legacy tournament :)
Had absolutely no chance vs gobbos, though i did not have spinning darkness in my sideboard at that point...

[Esper3k]

The nighthawk is a solid beater that can also be a strong defender and does handle almost every creature. He provides life and can with an equippment on him easily win a game - i think he is totally worth his 4 slots.
Also i srsly would not know what black medium cost creature is stronger and providing so many bonuses and having zero drawbacks :)
(i dont count tombstalker, cause of confidant in here)
If u know one, tell me - i currently am looking for some extra threats that eat Swords to Plowshares / Path to exile and on like a magnet due to their threatening character which makes an opponent want to handle (like confi, nighthawk, jitte and bitterblossom do)

I wouldn't really consider Nighthawk a solid beater in Legacy. 2 Power isn't exactly that amazing, which is of course, the biggest beef with the Nighthawk. Again, I don't disagree that he's a good blocker - that's what I've been saying is that he's pretty much a 1BB removal spell that gains you 2 life and requires your opponent to attack.

One thing about Nighthawk though - I'd be really curious to see how good Sword of Vengeance is with him. If only it gave +2/+1 instead of just +2/+0.

Other things I've been looking at: Possibly a green splash for Goyf (like in a Eva shell). Phylactery Lich has a lot of potential, but really requires a lot of reworking for it to be playable (adding Top would have synergy with it + Bob).

Also, do you guys notice mana flooding at all with running so many basics and no fetchlands?

[mujadaddy]

I wouldn't really consider Nighthawk a solid beater in Legacy.Without Lifelink, you'd be right. Nighthawk demands an answer, or you'll win with life advantage.

Looking for equipment for a Nighthawk? Sword of Light and Shadow is the answer. That's +7 life when you swing, and -4 for the opponent.

Lich stinks in a format with Swords & Path, and the Eva thread is for splashing green.

I've never really noticed mana flooding with 17 swamps & 4 Wastelands -- quite the opposite.

[Phoenix Ignition]

So does anyone have any thoughts on opponents playing Leyline of Sanctity? Seems like the only answer to it is the incredibly slow Neveranals disk, and not answering it leaves all of your hand hate and Gatekeepers pretty dead. Got destroyed by this earlier.

Also in a meta where Vengevine is very present (both the madness deck and random survivals) I am beginning to think that this deck is just not right. Hymns are good for the opponent while even Perish doesn't really do enough. Faeries are the only answer but they can usually survival 4 into the graveyard before you see a single faerie. Extra graveyard hate helps but the fact that they are playing other quick beaters means that it isn't enough and you need the perfect mix in your hand to not lose.

Any comments on these two problems?

[mujadaddy]

Dystopia is all I can think of for Leyline of Sanctity and for Survival of the Fittest (though Pithing Needle could work on that one). I've been looking at Damnation for the SB seriously, just to get out of bad situations. (Also synergizes with Persecutor :tongue: )

One thing that the deck doesn't really have pre-board is INSTANTS. Just been thinking about the very low curve and sometimes nothing to do...

[Lifeless]

So does anyone have any thoughts on opponents playing Leyline of Sanctity? Seems like the only answer to it is the incredibly slow Neveranals disk, and not answering it leaves all of your hand hate and Gatekeepers pretty dead. Got destroyed by this earlier.

Also in a meta where Vengevine is very present (both the madness deck and random survivals) I am beginning to think that this deck is just not right. Hymns are good for the opponent while even Perish doesn't really do enough. Faeries are the only answer but they can usually survival 4 into the graveyard before you see a single faerie. Extra graveyard hate helps but the fact that they are playing other quick beaters means that it isn't enough and you need the perfect mix in your hand to not lose.

Any comments on these two problems?

Leyline is problematic and if it starts getting added to a lot of boards then The Gate may not be a good meta choice. However, Dystopia should be able to take care of even multiple Leylines with no problem. If the opponent has counters to back up their Leyline, you're screwed either way.

In 50 games tested against U/G Madness this weekend I was very happy with my results post board. Even versions with some form of draw/manipulation in Brainstorm or Looter were not able to get there very often. Obviously, getting in an early Duress is outstanding against them. Dystopia is a champ here too, and while Mongrel can dodge it (as well as Deathmark) they only have the ability to generate a limited number of Vengevines activations. Their deck does not have any engine to generate card advantage and in general they do the exact opposite, much to your benefit. At the same time I was often able to answer their board advantage and take the win.

@Muja
Damnation is not a bad idea actually. Would be nice for the Goblins match-up obviously, but I have no idea what I would cut from the board.

[mujadaddy]

@Muja
Damnation is not a bad idea actually. Would be nice for the Goblins match-up obviously, but I have no idea what I would cut from the board.Damnation would go in the place of Spinning Darkness (if that is ineffective vs. your swarm meta), or Soul Spike (if you're seeing more swarm than Combo -- I'm probably going to do this) -- I didn't see your specific sideboard in the last few pages, so post that if you want more specific advice. This is what I'm testing right now:

3 Dystopia
2 Damnation
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Sword of Light and Shadow
4 Pithing Needle


Damnation is also good for Merfolk, among others; just keep your Daze mana open...

[Aggro_zombies]

Damnation would go in the place of Spinning Darkness (if that is ineffective vs. your swarm meta), or Soul Spike (if you're seeing more swarm than Combo -- I'm probably going to do this) -- I didn't see your specific sideboard in the last few pages, so post that if you want more specific advice. This is what I'm testing right now:

3 Dystopia
2 Damnation
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Sword of Light and Shadow
4 Pithing Needle


Damnation is also good for Merfolk, among others.
Good luck getting to Damnation mana against 4Cursecatcher4Daze3SpellPierce.deck.

Also, Plague is much better against Goblins. Goblins is quite adept at recovering from sweepers thanks to SGC, Matron, and Ringleader, while non-green versions have a much harder time getting around Plagues.

[mujadaddy]

Plague is much better against Goblins. Goblins is quite adept at recovering from sweepers thanks to SGC, Matron, and Ringleader, while non-green versions have a much harder time getting around Plagues."Plague, Cats" is about the saddest sound you can make against a deck with Lurghoyfs.

And if Merfolk draws "4Cursecatcher4Daze3SpellPierce" you're in much better shape than seeing a bunch of lords...and you won't need Damnation for a few Cursecatchers.

Plague *IS* better against Goblins, but I think it's too narrow.

[Shawon]

And if Merfolk draws "4Cursecatcher4Daze3SpellPierce" you're in much better shape than seeing a bunch of lords...and you won't need Damnation for a few Cursecatchers.

I think what he was trying to say that Merfolk drawing any of those cards makes your Damnation becomes more expensive than 2BB. I don't know about you, but in my experience I have a hard time curving out to 4 mana as it is, even while running 22 lands. Bottom line: you're not going to resolve a Damnation against Merfolk.

[EssKay]

So does anyone have any thoughts on opponents playing Leyline of Sanctity? Seems like the only answer to it is the incredibly slow Neveranals disk, and not answering it leaves all of your hand hate and Gatekeepers pretty dead. Got destroyed by this earlier.

Also in a meta where Vengevine is very present (both the madness deck and random survivals) I am beginning to think that this deck is just not right. Hymns are good for the opponent while even Perish doesn't really do enough. Faeries are the only answer but they can usually survival 4 into the graveyard before you see a single faerie. Extra graveyard hate helps but the fact that they are playing other quick beaters means that it isn't enough and you need the perfect mix in your hand to not lose.

Any comments on these two problems?

Disk is too slow, and too expensive. Splash white, run Vindicate. Kills everything.

[Shawon]

any comments on these two problems?

Dystopia is your best answer against Leyline of Sanctity. Enchantress will board Leyline against you, and obviously Dystopia takes care of the rest of the deck as well.

Extirpate takes care of Vengevine, and combined with Dystopia, discard, and possibly Pithing Needle in the sb, you should be able to stand a chance against Vengevival decks.

[Esper3k]

Regarding Vengevines: Yeah, especially in a mono black deck like this with access to all the best graveyard hate, I don't see the UG Madness deck being that big of a deal if you bring in enough graveyard hate. Leyline and Extirpate, especially, just wreck Vengevine. That deck just dies if it can't get down a Survival (which we should be able to stop early with all the hand disruption). Without Vengevines, the deck is really just a very bad Survival deck (c'mon they aren't even running Tarmogoyfs or Squee!).

Regarding Damnation: I'm not a huge fan of Damnation against Merfolk either. This deck doesn't run any acceleration so if they even have a Cursecatcher out, you're talking 5 lands to even cast it? Pretty rough. My experience with the Merfolk matchup in general is to kill their Lords which actually our deck seems to have problems with because it uses so much non-targeted removal! I would just say go with Engineered Plague as the best option?

[kramer733]

Man yesterrday i played this deck and it was so beast against burn. I only lost once for 5 matches that me and my opponent played. Abyssal persecutor does mean things to burn. Same with Vampire Nighthawk + Umezawa's jitte. In one game, i was at 2 life points. I had an umezawa's jitte out and vampire nighthawk out. I equipped the umezawa's jitte and started melting face. He was at 20 Life points. He was all burnt out by then and couldn't do anything. I then started regaining life from lifelink and came back. In the end, he just quit and i got back to 18 life. This deck does mean things. Abyssal Persecutor is literally a clock against your opponent if they can't do anythign about it.

And you know what? I haven't even been playing magic for more than 20 games in my entire magic career. THIS IS HOW BEAST THIS DECK IS.

[Michael Keller]

I've noticed there this deck is garnering a lot of attention to newer members of The Source, and I am really happy about that. The deck is relatively cheap to build, so it has that appeal to players to who are newer and just breaking in to the format. I'm really happy about the intelligent debate people are generating about slots in the main build and sideboard. For a deck that lacks most of the format's most prevalent cards, it seems to be doing very well under the radar and has been gaining a large amount of notoriety.

Keep up the good work, everyone! Remember: It's cool and all to hype the deck up and have faith in it (as it has performed very well), but our work here is far from done in trying to optimize our card selection. Let's remain focused on what doesn't work in addition to what does.

I have been tinkering a lot with the sideboard as of recent with the rise of Vengevine. Extirpate seems to be the cheapest, most effective way of eliminating that problem all together. Remember: Leyline of the Void only shuts down opponents' graveyards, but it cannot remove those creatures from their hands. They also have haste, which is another problem. Even if we did decide to play Smother or the like, it still would not hit Vengevine. It's for this reason I believe Extirpate to be a crippling shot to Survival decks abusing that card's triggered ability.

Those decks also tend to lack the Squee engine, which is also beneficial to decks like ours. Pithing Needle works great in the sideboard as a deterrent to cards like Jace and Survival and forces an opponent to either match forces or meet removal when it comes to attrition. Mass removal in the form of Pernicious Deed is also an annoyance, but Needle also helps here too.

I am also beginning to wonder if a splash would actually hurt or help this deck's consistency. It already really is very consistent for a mono-black deck, so giving it the benefit of the doubt can be either a good or bad thing.

[Lifeless]

I am also beginning to wonder if a splash would actually hurt or help this deck's consistency. It already really is very consistent for a mono-black deck, so giving it the benefit of the doubt can be either a good or bad thing.

I have two thoughts on a splash. First, the deck is currently not vulnerable to wasteland. This is one of it's finest strengths and something that would be inevitably lost with a splash (fetching for basics would further hamstring Gatekeeper).

Second, it would be prudent to start by coming to an agreement on the deck's worst match-ups and then deciding if a splash would address those match-up. At this point I'm not convinced that it would. I'm not saying that it's wrong to try white for Vindicate or enchantment hate (or what have you) but black is a versatile color and I would need a very convincing argument to add a splash.

Glad to see more people taking interest in the deck recently.

[Osmin]

Regarding to splash: one of the reasons for me is that we can not do anything against Counterbalance. Discard doesn't help against topdecked CB.

[Michael Keller]

Regarding to splash: one of the reasons for me is that we can not do anything against Counterbalance. Discard doesn't help against topdecked CB.

No, but landing an Abyssal Persecutor when they have no answer doesn't help them either, does it?

Point is, it's mono-black and you can't deal with it game one. Oh well. The deck can work around Counterbalance; you need to exert pressure on their hand enough and drop threats to counteract its effectiveness. With a Top out, you're looking at a mana-intensive scenario where they need to dig for answers instead of stacking to counter.

[EssKay]

No, but landing an Abyssal Persecutor when they have no answer doesn't help them either, does it?

Point is, it's mono-black and you can't deal with it game one. Oh well. The deck can work around Counterbalance; you need to exert pressure on their hand enough and drop threats to counteract its effectiveness. With a Top out, you're looking at a mana-intensive scenario where they need to dig for answers instead of stacking to counter.

I would think more often than not, they do have an answer. Countertop decks are all running JtMS now as their cmc4, and even if they don't have a 4 drop in their top three, it's not like Counterbalance is the only means they have of countering things. Basically everything in the deck eats it to Counterbalance, leaving them plenty of Forces, Spell Pierces, StPs, etc. to deal with that one guy CB might not hit.

I think the Countertop and Landstill matchups are the toughest ones for this deck. Against them we end up with 1. Lots of dead removal, 2. A lower threat density than dedicated aggro like Zoo, and 3. No good way to deal with enchantments or Plainswalkers. I was thinking of trying to work Tombstalker in somewhere, even the SB, but Jace's bounce ability is just too good against it.

A white splash gives access to Vindicate, which is a good catch-all but still gets hit by CB, green gives Krosan Grip and Autumn's Veil...anything useful for stopping dedicated control just in black?

[Michael Keller]

I would think more often than not, they do have an answer. Countertop decks are all running JtMS now as their cmc4, and even if they don't have a 4 drop in their top three, it's not like Counterbalance is the only means they have of countering things. Basically everything in the deck eats it to Counterbalance, leaving them plenty of Forces, Spell Pierces, StPs, etc. to deal with that one guy CB might not hit

It's a mono-black deck predicated on using slower disruption and drawing the game out longer than most decks falling in this genre normally would. You have to rely on discard effects to hit those problematic cards like Counterbalance so they obviously don't resolve. And, assuming one does, they still need a Top to maximize efficiency. That requires time - time that they must spend on trying to lock you out of the game. By then, the situation regarding a "top-decked" Counterbalance really doesn't matter.

There's a reason we use discard, you know. Just because Counterbalance resolves doesn't mean we lose. Cripple their hand as you should, then drop a clock.

[Psyqo]

I recently built a deck modeled after The Gate but with a green splash for Goyfs since I don't own Persecutors. I tried it in a 9 man tourney a week ago and got worked, so I added 3 Deeds to the maindeck and in a 12 man tourney last night went 3-0-1, drawing for a 1st place tie. My only green cards are Goyf and Deed, and I use Dark Ritual in place of Cabal Therapy.

My wins were:

Enchantress (which had worked me hard the week before): 2-0
Homebrew Silvers: 2-1
TES: 2-0 (my 1st turn of game 2 was land, rit, rit, hymm, nighthawk)


So it's obvious that the green splash works against some decks, but I do agree that being somewhat vulnerable to wasteland on my Bayous could prove problematic should I face them.

[imanujakku]

the lack of reach i think is a problem with this deck and eva as well. zoo can handle its creatures getting shut out since it will simply burn you to death but when legacy control stabilizes they dont seem to have much trouble dealing with low to moderate threat density.

ive seen some people playing around with the rack in eva builds and ive been playing around with underworld dreams. Underworld dreams is not horrible. i would not exactly call it good but i had an amusing match with enchantress where he had locked out my creatures with elephant grass and i dropped two underworld dreams and he burned himself to death looking for an answer. punishing brainstorm, jace draw, ponder draw, top draw etc as well as putting control on a non creature clock is appealing to me even if the clock is slow.

[sporenfrosch1411]

What do you guys think about Arrogant Bloodlord?
He kinda appeals my eye, do you think he is playable here?

[Sando]

I had a bit of free time this week so I have been working on the side board and match up analysis for the changing meta.
After testing against the U/G survival decks I have found that the best options are Leyline and Extirpate or Needle depending on preference.

The needle has more utility against other decks so I'm currently running 2 along with 3 Leyline's (I normally dig down to find at least one form of hate in my opener so I use the needle as Leyline 4 and 5, I just hate drawing multiple late as they at dead draws.); However the Extirpate is more powerful against the grave based decks so if the meta had lots of Survival & Dredge I would sub them in for the Needles (however taking win conditions from counter spells from decks is always fun).

The major issue with the deck I have found is with board wipes like deed or Vial tribe decks. I have been using 3 plagues to try to stop the tribal deck as well as cutting a Jitte to a Sword of Fire & Ice main; however this starts eating into the slots very quickly (One of the few decks were there are more than 15 relevant cards for your side board); so I have dropped the Macabre's all together and have dropped down to three Spinning Darkness because against most decks you bring them in against they just shore up the match with things like Dystopia so 4 is asking a bit much (Deathmark get Goyf just as well).

Getting around Deed has been Harder and most of the time beating it has to do with retroactively removing it with discard and not over extending in to it. This is the only reason I would want to splash a colour so I could get access to something like Grip or Vindicate; However the stability issues that raises and the fact you just switched on all their wastelands makes this a very bad idea in my book. Things like Counter-Balance don't worry me because Persecutor just schools them unless they have the Force or a Jace on top and all the discard makes keeping to blue cards around all the time quite hard (exception is when they have multiple tops out, but needle works well on that problem).

The only change to the mana base I'm looking at is cutting one Wasteland for a Stronghold; because they both function as spells in this deck and the option of recursion is a good thing for the longer match ups. I have found sandbagging Wasteland to use as a spell is more effective normally as you want the double and triple black early for your Hymns and Gatekeeper (Randomly mana screwing them is nice but Hymning their hand on turn 2 is often better).

The major issues this deck faces is optimisation of the side-board. If you tune it to your meta correctly it is quite easy to beat most decks out there provided you play a relativity tight game and make sure to Mulligan correctly (An easy way to learn this skill is to get some time with combo decks under your belt; it also help you plan ahead likely plays if that opening grip does mean the difference between life and death).

Just my two cents about what I have been finding and why.

Sando out

The decks Reach is it's discard package. It's reach stop's problems before they start. the only problem is most of the deck is at sorcery speed so baiting their reach (Counters and Burn) within your turn is critical. if you want burn look at soul spike, an instant speed shot for 4 is often game breaking when they don't expect it (and who expects Fireblast from mono black)

[Lifeless]

My final board I'll be using this weekend unless it doesn't pan out in testing:

4x Spinning Darkness
3x Dystopia
3x Leylne of the Void (with needle for the Landstill match I am comfortable going with this)
3x Pithing Needle
2x Soul Spike

I will primarily be testing against various combo to see if 3 Leyline and 2 Soul Spike are enough to gain some advantage. Spinning Darkness and Dystopia have simply been too good to cut, while Needle has relevant targets in almost every match (I would love to blow out a mediocre Merfolk or Goblins hand by naming Vial) .

[Michael Keller]

My final board I'll be using this weekend unless it doesn't pan out in testing:
4x Spinning Darkness
3x Dystopia
3x Leylne of the Void (with needle for the Landstill match I am comfortable going with this)
3x Pithing Needle
2x Soul Spike


This is a sideboard that I like. It is well-rounded and you've taken an active interest in some of the deck's primary weaknesses. I really feel people should try Dystopia out more and test it; that card really is just incredible. I think Pithing Needle is going to be crucial here against Planeswalkers and Vial, too.

I am a little curious as to the three Leyline, however; I really feel to maximize efficiency for your opening draw you just flat out need a full set to improve your chances of opening into it. Remember (and this is key): When you add Leyline to the sideboard, you're forcing the deck to mulligan more aggressively. Therefore, you need to weigh your options and determine whether or not your hand is strong enough without Leyline to keep it, or throw that good hand away just in hopes of opening it with a mediocre six.

[Lifeless]

This is a sideboard that I like. It is well-rounded and you've taken an active interest in some of the deck's primary weaknesses. I really feel people should try Dystopia out more and test it; that card really is just incredible. I think Pithing Needle is going to be crucial here against Planeswalkers and Vial, too.

I am a little curious as to the three Leyline, however; I really feel to maximize efficiency for your opening draw you just flat out need a full set to improve your chances of opening into it. Remember (and this is key): When you add Leyline to the sideboard, you're forcing the deck to mulligan more aggressively. Therefore, you need to weigh your options and determine whether or not your hand is strong enough without Leyline to keep it, or throw that good hand away just in hopes of opening it with a mediocre six.

Thanks, I'm going to work on getting more solid results from Leyline tonight. I've cut one because I'm really happy with the rest of the board. In order to go to 4 Leyline I would highly consider adding one of the Needles to the main, rather than cut anything from the side. In practice so far I've had good luck with aggressive mulligans, at least in some part due to much of the rest of the format needing to do the same.

[EssKay]

It's a mono-black deck predicated on using slower disruption and drawing the game out longer than most decks falling in this genre normally would. You have to rely on discard effects to hit those problematic cards like Counterbalance so they obviously don't resolve. And, assuming one does, they still need a Top to maximize efficiency. That requires time - time that they must spend on trying to lock you out of the game. By then, the situation regarding a "top-decked" Counterbalance really doesn't matter.

There's a reason we use discard, you know. Just because Counterbalance resolves doesn't mean we lose. Cripple their hand as you should, then drop a clock.

I don't get what you're trying to say here? That the Gate plays slowly, yet somehow establishes board position so fast that the control player can't recover? I would love to believe that it's just as simple as 'discard > counterbalance', but once they have a land in play, they have several ways to protect their hand. On top of that, we just don't have any answer to a resolved counterbalance except to try and play around it. We can't even attempt to get rid of it, and to me that's troubling.

[sporenfrosch1411]

Y cant agree more on that.
If the Balance resolves, your only solution (in most cases) is what u allready have on the board (which will most likely be removed the following turns) or the Persecutors (which your opponent will try to counter at all cost).


By the way. WhiteStaxx (yes i know, no deck to beat, but still not bad) is REALLY hard. If he resolves Turn1 Trinisphere or Chalice on 1 (and trust me, this will happen a lot) you will have a really hard time disrupting him. Monowhite Staxx allways locked me down Turn 4 then, so hard that i couldnt play anything anymore. In the tourney i played, i could disrupt him in both games, but its kind of a coinflip if u have that Duress Turn 1 and that Hymn / another Duress Turn 2.
If not, ur stuck with looking at your opponent building up.
In ALL testgames i played with the player after the tourney (we kinda tested out what each of us could improve), it was pretty obvious he has a better chance to win versus TheGate.

Im really considering splashing White or Green (which one -> im REALLY not sure atm....white has Stoneforge and Vindicate, while Green has Goyf and Deed) - but that doesnt belong here...

All i can say that if u dont have that Turn1 and or Turn2 discard, your pretty much f*cked versus many decks :)

[Michael Keller]

I don't get what you're trying to say here? That the Gate plays slowly, yet somehow establishes board position so fast that the control player can't recover? I would love to believe that it's just as simple as 'discard > counterbalance', but once they have a land in play, they have several ways to protect their hand. On top of that, we just don't have any answer to a resolved counterbalance except to try and play around it. We can't even attempt to get rid of it, and to me that's troubling.

I'm trying to explain that you need to play around Counterbalance once it resolves and nothing more. But you also have to understand: Once Counterbalance has resolved, you can't necessarily keep the deck on "autopilot" as you'll have to churn out as many threats as possible as fast as you can to kill them before they land a Top and lock you out of the game. I'm being serious when I say that I've beaten decks that have resolved Counterbalance more often times than not because I take advantage of my opponent's miscues. If you keep dropping threats, ask yourself: Does Counterbalance even really matter if they miss blind? I've certainly never had a problem with it. My opponents usually need to set it up with Hierarch mana, and they usually never stick.

That is a very mana-intensive (albeit effective) combo that you can still get around depending on what they have on top of their library. They always aren't going to have the answer for everything you play; it just isn't that simple. With a mono-black deck, we have to face facts that perhaps that can be an unfortunate situation from which there is nothing we can really do (game one, anyways) about.

As a little side-note, Soul Spike also nails Planeswalkers.

[mujadaddy]

As a little side-note, Soul Spike also nails Planeswalkers.Woah, very clever. I always forget about that.

[sporenfrosch1411]

I still feel like TheGate has a horrible Matchup versus Goblins and Merfolk.
While Goblins swarms you, Merfolk will pretty much counter what you try to do versus their Key-Creatures, while playing around with Aether Vial.
What can we do to improve theese two particular Matchups?
I allways board out 3 Deathmark and board in 3 Spinning Darkness for it but it doesnt seem to be enough :/


For reference, here is what i play atm:
[4x] Abyssal Persecutor
[4x] Gatekeeper of Malakir
[4x] Dark Confidant
[4x] Vampire Nighthawk

[3x] Bitterblossom
[4x] Duress
[4x] Innocent Blood
[3x] Deathmark
[3x] Cabal Therapy
[3x] Hymn to Tourach
[2x] Umezawa's Jitte
[1x] Sword of Fire and Ice

[18x] Swamp
[ 3x] Wasteland

//Sideboard

[3x] Dystopia
[3x] Spinning Darkness
[4x] Leyline of the Void
[3x] Pithing Needle
[2x] Soul Spike


What i currently would like to change in my list:
I would really like to play a fourth Cabal Therapy. This card is just insane with Bitterblossom, and even without Bitterblossom it is very good. I just dont know what to cut for it. If u think "go cut Sword of fire and ice" think again :D
For me it has proven itself to be perfect. It adds another 2dmg and fuels ur deck with a card every time u hit your opponent. The only choice i see would be to cut the third Hymn to Tourach, but cutting Hymns just can´t be good i guess :(

What do you think?
(You are ofc also invited to rant about my choices in general ;) )

[Osmin]

I still feel like TheGate has a horrible Matchup versus Goblins and Merfolk.

Yes, Goblins can be very fast. And they can get much advantage via Ringleader or Matron.
And I have never lost a round (just single games :)) against Merfolks. I usually board in Pithing Needle instead of Deathmark. Main targets for Needle are Mutavault and Vial.

[Michael Keller]

I still feel like TheGate has a horrible Matchup versus Goblins and Merfolk.
While Goblins swarms you, Merfolk will pretty much counter what you try to do versus their Key-Creatures, while playing around with Aether Vial.
What can we do to improve theese two particular Matchups?
I allways board out 3 Deathmark and board in 3 Spinning Darkness for it but it doesnt seem to be enough :/


For reference, here is what i play atm:
[4x] Abyssal Persecutor
[4x] Gatekeeper of Malakir
[4x] Dark Confidant
[4x] Vampire Nighthawk

[3x] Bitterblossom
[4x] Duress
[4x] Innocent Blood
[3x] Deathmark
[3x] Cabal Therapy
[3x] Hymn to Tourach
[2x] Umezawa's Jitte
[1x] Sword of Fire and Ice

[18x] Swamp
[ 3x] Wasteland

//Sideboard

[3x] Dystopia
[3x] Spinning Darkness
[4x] Leyline of the Void
[3x] Pithing Needle
[2x] Soul Spike


What i currently would like to change in my list:
I would really like to play a fourth Cabal Therapy. This card is just insane with Bitterblossom, and even without Bitterblossom it is very good. I just dont know what to cut for it. If u think "go cut Sword of fire and ice" think again :D
For me it has proven itself to be perfect. It adds another 2dmg and fuels ur deck with a card every time u hit your opponent. The only choice i see would be to cut the third Hymn to Tourach, but cutting Hymns just can´t be good i guess :(

What do you think?
(You are ofc also invited to rant about my choices in general ;) )

Have you done any testing to support that statement, or do you just feel that way in general? Because I've tested the Merfolk match to the point of no return and it isn't anything remotely as bad as you say it is. In my testing (which has been extensive), it has been slightly favorable for this deck barring a multi-Deathmark opening hand. And even then, I've still used it to hit splash-for-green Tarmogoyfs.

[mujadaddy]

Yeh, merfolk depends on what part of the deck you see.

But you bring up an interesting mulligan point. Given a 2-swamp, 2 Deathmark opener, what 3 cards make you keep that against an unknown opponent? Against a known, non :g: / :w: one?

[sporenfrosch1411]

I might want to add, that i was speaking about round1 (the first game) versus merfolk
And yes it still "feels" like a hard match in my testing. My problem in general is, that i mostly get swarmed... even if i disable Aether Vial(game2). I played many matches where the density of threats merfolk was putting on the table was overwhelming to mine.

[Seraph2k]

Even with 2 SPikes and 4 SD the games vs gobins are so hopeless:( With my old rock that matchup was no problem, but with the gate it is nearly unwinnable, or feels like that.

[pippo84]

I tried the deck a bit and I have to say it rocks!

I just cut the Deathmark for Smother because I don't want a dead card against Merfolk and Goblins that are gaining popularity again in the last months. I was also thinking of Ghastly Demise, but I don't think the deck can fuel the GY enough to support it well. Thoughts?

What's the sideboard that's currently played? I don't like the idea of Leyline of the Void because you have to mulligan agressivly to find it. I really like Extirpate in the board to help against some MU's. And Dystopia sounds really good..

Thanks!

[sporenfrosch1411]

you have to ask yourself:
"When i play versus some deck that strongly relies on its graveyard, for example Dredge or Loam, would you not mulligan aggressively just to have an answer before he can do anything at all?"
I really like the Leyline. Drop it from your opening hand versus Loam, NewHorizons, T hr esh or anything similar and your opponent will find himself in massive trouble. Sure he will have somewhat of an answer but until then, you dominate him. Maybe you will draw another Leyline later, but even if, you could maybe hardcast it, having prolonged the game with your first Leyline.
You can also try FaeryMacabre if you like, its a good alternative though i personally had a better play with Leyline :)

[AlterEgo]

I don't know how you guys manage to win with your lists.
I've been running 22 lands right from the beginning (3 Waste, 19 Swamp) and have experienced a flood every now and then. Then I decided to go with ONE fewer Swamp and got mana screwed in half the games of the tournament (2/5/1 drop at German Nationals, 204 players total).

I mean, even though I got the worst possible matchups, this shouldn't have happened:
1x CBTop + Jace
1x Jace-still (RWU)
1x Goblins (...)
1x BantSurvival (saw none of 4 Faeries to stop Iona)
1x NO-Elves
1x UR Dreadstill (draw)
and 2 rogue decks I won against...

[redfog]

Hello from Russia :smile:
Sorry for my bad english
Today i'm played non-DCI legacy tournament and made top-2

My build:
[x4] Abyssal Persecutor
[x4] Vampire Nighthawk
[x4] Gatekeeper of Malakir
[x3] Dark Confidant
[x2] Faerie Macabre

[x4] Innocent Blood
[x4] Cabal Therapy
[x4] Duress
[x3] Hymn to Tourach
[x3] Diabolic Edict
[x2] Bitterblossom
[x2] Umezawa's Jitte

[x19] Swamp
[x2] Bojuka Bog

1 round - 0:2 vs BGW Fish
2 round - 2:1 vs Zoo
3 round - 2:1 vs Show and Tell combo with Emrakul, Iona, Terrastodont and Sutured Ghoul
Final - split

[EssKay]

A friend and I both played the Gate today at the SCG 5K Denver. Conclusion: it's too slow.

[sporenfrosch1411]

@Esskay
What were ur matchups?
What exactly did you conclude to be too slow?

Give us more information ;)

[Michael Keller]

A friend and I both played the Gate today at the SCG 5K Denver. Conclusion: it's too slow.

That's quite helpful, considering slow got me third place out of seventy people (and third out of thirty-three the tournament before that).

Would you mind elaborating on this vague and (ironically) inconclusive statement? Because from what I gather, one of several things are happening here:

a. You're playing the deck incorrectly.
b. Your build is not optimal.
c. You ran into bad match-up after bad match-up.
d. Your sideboard is not configured properly.
e. You did not sideboard correctly for certain match-ups.
f. You left glaring omissions from your list where something more helpful could have been used.
g. You made tons of play mistakes.
h. You lost tight Game Three's.
i. You ended up playing against opponents who opened the nuts and got you when it counted most.
j. You mulliganed incorrectly and it ended up costing you.

And the list could go on and on. I'm trying to decrypt your logic when you say it is "too slow", because the deck runs (at least) fourteen one-cost spells. The deck intentionally plays like a control deck (which I trust you knew before even playing it), so I'm not sure what you mean you refer to it as slow. It's perfectly tailored for a large and diverse metagame, which is why it has done so well in large events.

I am (personally) still against playing Leyline; that completely alters the entire mulligan strategy of the deck and forces you to decide what is worth taking: A mulligan to find a Leyline down from a strong hand of seven, a mediocre six with a Leyline, or a one-lander in a five-card hand. It's just not worth it when you factor in the lack of an efficient draw engine. That is why the deck uses two for one's to generate card advantage, so that it doesn't want to damage its optimal starts.

The only "four-drop" you want to play is Abyssal Persecutor. And I am super curious if you main-decked Deathmark (and whether or not it would have helped). Reading through your last several posts, you seem to have an issue with speed when it comes to running a mono-black deck. I'm wondering if perhaps this variation isn't suited to your needs, because your "final" conclusion was that it was simply too slow when in fact, that is how the deck is purposely designed to run.

[Lifeless]

I actually played it at the 5k also. There wasn't a single match where I was blown out and I was usually very close to stabilizing. Quick details, I'll elaborate later if people have questions:

Loss to Goblins: He's at 1 in game 3 and rips a Ringleader into Piledriver and Warchief. Fuck my life.
Loss to Allies w/Vial and Standstill: I have lethal on the table and he rips an ally to give his team pro black and swing in past my tokens.
Win v Merfolk
Win v Boros Burn
Loss to U/G Madness: I mulligan poorly and my decision to go with Leyline instead of Faerie or Extripate costs me game 3, I'll elaborate later.
Loss to Aluren: I don't keep a disruption hand for game 3, so I'm a jackass and he goes off turn 3.

You might notice I didn't meet a Goyf all day. I could blame a bit of this on dropping to the 0-2 but Zoo and Goyf were both out in much smaller amounts than I expected.

Massive pros to my buddy Kyle for sticking to his guns and taking 2nd with Burn, and the rest of my car cashing.

[sporenfrosch1411]

I currently consider swapping Leylines for Extirpate. Extirpate gets not only rid of what lies in the graveyard, but of all copies as well. Plus you cant react on it, since it has Split/Second. I need to test this ;)

Still@Esskay:
Whats too slow? Why did you loose and versus what decks? Whats your list?
I N F O P L S :D

[MaximumC]

I was at the 5k as well, and I think I ran into you, Lifeless. I was the guy with the green splash you came to watch thrash Merfolk in Round 5. It was a pleasure to meet you, and I hope to see you down at Black Gold for our Vintage nights!

I ended up going 3-3 and dropping, but I was doing better than that. I was 3-2 going in to round 6, and mis-read my table number. In the time it took me to ask a judge for assistance, one minute went by and they gave me a game loss, leaving me with one non-sideboard game agaisnt Belcher. Yeah. I dropped, because I knew I'd be getting very unsportsmanlike very quickly with the contemptous way the judges treated me. I don't think I'll be playing in another StarCity event any time soon.

Anyway, I found The Gate to be very solid. Here's what I played:


4 Abyssal Persecutor
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Dark Confidant
4 Vampire Nighthawk

4 Duress
2 Hymn to Torach
2 Cabal Therapy
3 Deathmark
4 Innocent Blood
2 Pernicious Deed

3 Bitterblossom
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats
2 Bayou
1 Forest
9 Swamp

Sideboard:
4 Krosan Grip
4 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Spinning Darkness
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Faeire Macabre


I had no trouble with the green splash all day. Running two Bayous and a singleton Forest let me grab a green source when I needed it, but I never had a problem with Wasteland. The green was only relevant in one game against Stiflenaught, who was running Dreadnought, but I was glad I had it there to grip his Counterbalance before it became a problem.

The Thorns were critical against Spring Tide, sealing the game when they dropped. I imagine they would also have been critical against belcher if I had been able to play with them. The Merfolk matchup was very favorable, boarding out the Deathmarks for Spinning Darkness and another Sword.

I had game against every deck I saw, but like Lifeless, I saw no Tarmogoyfs at all!

Match 1 (Spring Tide) Win
Game 1 - I watch helplessly, stuck on one land, as he goes off turn 4.
Game 2 - Post board, I curve out with Duress, Thorn, Bitterblossom. That does the trick.
Game 3 - Duress, Thorn, Nighthawk. He tutors up some bounce for my thorn and tries to go off turn 5, but he's got a less than stellar hand and fizzles.

Match 2 (Counterbalance / Stifle) Loss
Game 1 - Early discard strips him of defenses, and eventually I overwhelm his man-lands with a persecutor.
Game 2 - My biggest whiff of the day. He's down to 2 cards in hand, Dreadnought in play. Could've hymned before casting innocent blood - no reason in the world not to - but I dont, and get blown out by Force of Will. Stupid, stupid.
Game 3 - I draw crap and his second Dreadnought sticks around long enough to finish me.

Match 3 (Elf Combo) Loss
Game 1 - 12 points of pointy-eared power on t2 spells doom.
Game 2 - I keep a lid on for a few turns, and take a risk on t3. I have a Deed in hand, and figure that my only shot is to wait for him to go nuts with aggro and dump his hand, blow him out, and then recover. Unfortunetly, he gets lucky and his glimpse goes from "see how much power I can dump" into "c-c-c-c-c-combo!" when he draws two Nettle Sentinels. I never get a chance to land the Deed, but if he had not gone off, it would have been absolutely brutal.

Match 4 (Pox) Win
My notes are vague on this match, but essentially I duress away his pox and smallpox when possible, and I run more threats than him, so I get there. Post-game, we get into an interesting discussion on the merits of running Persecutor in pox. I think it's bad; yea, it's great you have lots of sacrifice effects, but a Pox deck letting people build to 4 mana is losing already.

Match 5 (Merfolk) Win
Again, bad notes, but basically cheap discard and creature kill mean he's dumping his hand into his grave. Then my critters come to mop up.

Match 6 (StarCity Judge / Belcher) Loss
Game 1 - Thanks for asking for help. Unfortunetly, we're here to mete out punishment, not to help you, so here's your seat and a game loss.
Game 2 - My Thorns sit in the sideboard. I keep a hand with therapy and hope to get lucky by nailing a bunch of chrome moxen, but no good; he's got petal and tinder wall instead. He Empties for 12 gobbos on t1, and I scoop after (unsuprisingly) not drawing Balance.


To those who say this deck is slow: you're doing it wrong. The Gate does not win quickly. However, it starts undermining the opponent's position very quickly, and eventually just grows threats after the opponent's explosive start has been nuetered. So, for example, against Merfolk, the games I won were starting hands with some discard and some removal. Nail the countermagic with duress. Let em' vial out creatures; you just kill them all. Wasteland is great because, against mutavault, its extra creature removal. Eventually, around mid-game, you start going: "Threat, go. Threat, go. Threat, go," and the now-depleted merfolk player simply cannot deal.

That's not to say that an opponent's aggro starts can be so explosive you can't do anything about it. Against Elf Combo, for example, I watched a friend of mine dump 12 power onto the table on turn 2. Even if I had boarded for Plague, I couldn't have lived long enough to cast the two of them it would take to neutralize him. But, against Merfolk and Goblins, I think this deck is a very solid choice.

[Michael Keller]

4 Abyssal Persecutor
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Dark Confidant
4 Vampire Nighthawk

4 Duress
2 Hymn to Torach
2 Cabal Therapy
3 Deathmark
4 Innocent Blood
2 Pernicious Deed

3 Bitterblossom
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats
2 Bayou
1 Forest
9 Swamp

Sideboard:
4 Krosan Grip
4 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Spinning Darkness
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Faeire Macabre

Where is Abyssal Persecutor?

Only two Hymn to Tourach? That's one of the absolute best cards in the deck. You need at least three for it to be effective. Two Cabal Therapy is just horrible; you need that card to be able to knock out multiple copies of cards in their hand, flashback to hit Persecutor, and re-utilize by offing Faerie tokens.

Why in God's name would you run Pernicious Deed when you run only twelve creatures, Bitterblossom, and Equipment? You're just asking for your board position (which should be dictated by a plethora of systematic removal) to be neutralized by your own card. Pernicious Deed is redundant is this deck (just as Disk once was) and from the looks of your list you got too cute with what you were trying to do. I don't even see Dystopia in your sideboard, which is arguably the best card in the deck.

See this is what I'm noticing (and this is startling to a certain degree): People are just taking the general concept of this deck and diluting it with additional colors for splashes that are unnecessary and only detract from the original concept of the deck because it is cheap to build which subsequently makes cards easier to substitute out. Remember folks: Just because you can substitute something out of the deck because other options are more readily accessible doesn't necessarily mean you should run them for the sake of running them. Try out the lists and see what works and what doesn't. Try to evaluate and disseminate ideas that could be beneficial to the evolution of this deck and archetype as a whole. But speaking to everyone who really and truly likes this deck: Remember the basics and remember the fundamentals.

This deck is Magic in its most simplistic form.

I guarantee you if you only had slightly modified (at least) the stock list from the opening thread you would have done much better barring play-errors, match-ups, and how you mulliganed.

*On a similarly related topic, check out this link from Star City's St. Louis event not too long ago: Here (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/19667_Too_Much_Information_StarCityGamescom_Legacy_Open_St_Louis.html).

Notice the trend of players running Aggro in the format. The Gate has positive match-ups against most of these decks to begin with. Control has probably risen up from the depths slowly, but it still has a severe issue dealing with decks like Zoo and the sort. While this information is just under two months old (and in a different time and place, essentially), the standard base of decks to confront in a large metagame have not changed all that much. This deck should (and does) have great match-ups against most decks echoing throughout the Legacy today. I dare say much has changed, and that is why this deck has consistently been effective.

To put it explicitly: Altering two or three cards in this deck can change the entire course of how it plays; it's that tight.

[MaximumC]

Where is Abyssal Persecutor?

First card in the decklist...?



Only two Hymn to Tourach? That's one of the absolute best cards in the deck. You need at least three for it to be effective. Two Cabal Therapy is just horrible; you need that card to be able to knock out multiple copies of cards in their hand, flashback to hit Persecutor, and re-utilize by offing Faerie tokens.


Hymn is good, I like Hymn, but I never want to draw multiples. I'm certainly not married to the idea of only 2 of them, but it served me pretty well. The problem is that by turn 2 or 3, when I can be casting Hymn, I usually had something on the board to deal with instead. So Hymn gets put off while I kill a Dreadnought, and then it's less effective later. I agree that Therapy should be a 3 of at least, I just didn't have the third, but I disagree on how easy it is to flashback. By the time I had creatures sticking to the table, I had already won the control war and the game was basically over.



Why in God's name would you run Pernicious Deed when you run only twelve creatures, Bitterblossom, and Equipment? You're just asking for your board position (which should be dictated by a plethora of systematic removal) to be neutralized by your own card. Pernicious Deed is redundant is this deck (just as Disk once was) and from the looks of your list you got too cute with what you were trying to do. I don't even see Dystopia in your sideboard, which is arguably the best card in the deck.


I ran Deed for the same reason that people run Wrath of God; I need a reset button. Obviously you won't run it out if you're ahead on the board, but in that case, life is good anyway. Take my Elf match. If he had not drawn the nuts, and he explained afterwards he was not expecting to do so, he would have dumped his hand and had 6 - 10 1cc creatures on the board. Deed wins the game. Plague does not, btw, because of the lords he's packing. I won't argue with Dystopia, that's solid, but it would have been nigh-useless in the Zoo-free 5k we played in.

The other thing is, Deed sweeps are not necessarily bad for me even if I have something on the table. On several occasions I therapied away my creature before hitting them with Innocent Blood, and Deed would do great there too. I also run the singleton Phyrexian Tower for the possibility of Towering a creature, sweeping, and then having mana for a followup play. Maybe that is too cute, though.



See this is what I'm noticing (and this is startling to a certain degree): People are just taking the general concept of this deck and diluting it with additional colors for splashes that are unnecessary and only detract from the original concept of the deck because it is cheap to build which subsequently makes cards easier to substitute out.

No, I diluted the deck with an additional color because I was not willing to punt my matchup against Empty the Warrens, Elves, and Counterbalance. Without the green splash, a resolved counterblance is a ticking time bomb. Yes, you can try to nail it with duress beforehand, but I am uncomfortable knowing I have no answer at all once it resolves. Maybe that's a mistake - you've certainly tested the deck more than me - but it worked for me. I ripped the KG a few turns after top landed and before he got top online, which kept me in the game.

I think what we're talking about here is like what TPS went through in Vintage; adding more diversified disruption which, while it distracts from the deck's focus, protects the deck against otherwise diffult matchups. Maybe I would have done better mono black, but I can tell you this: there was NEVER a point in the tourny that I wished Deed was Therapy instead, or where I regretted running some fetchlands. Not one.

[Michael Keller]

Hymn is good, I like Hymn, but I never want to draw multiples. I'm certainly not married to the idea of only 2 of them, but it served me pretty well. The problem is that by turn 2 or 3, when I can be casting Hymn, I usually had something on the board to deal with instead. So Hymn gets put off while I kill a Dreadnought, and then it's less effective later. I agree that Therapy should be a 3 of at least, I just didn't have the third, but I disagree on how easy it is to flashback. By the time I had creatures sticking to the table, I had already won the control war and the game was basically over.

Hymn to Tourach is the definitive example of card advantage in Legacy. There is no reason to not run more than two copies of a card that is just as crippling mid-game as it is early.



I ran Deed for the same reason that people run Wrath of God; I need a reset button. Obviously you won't run it out if you're ahead on the board, but in that case, life is good anyway. Take my Elf match. If he had not drawn the nuts, and he explained afterwards he was not expecting to do so, he would have dumped his hand and had 6 - 10 1cc creatures on the board. Deed wins the game. Plague does not, btw, because of the lords he's packing. I won't argue with Dystopia, that's solid, but it would have been nigh-useless in the Zoo-free 5k we played in.

You don't "need" a reset button; you run multiple removal effects to the point where cards like Wrath of God are laughable. Deed is reactive, not proactive, which is why you lost some games I'm sure. Dropping that card after (or before even) with relevant threats is pointless in a deck predicated on using systematic removal to allow your hand to become that much more effective as the game goes on. Sitting on Deed as an insurance policy is a terrible idea, especially when creatures should be the least of your worries.


No, I diluted the deck with an additional color because I was not willing to punt my matchup against Empty the Warrens, Elves, and Counterbalance. Without the green splash, a resolved counterblance is a ticking time bomb. Yes, you can try to nail it with duress beforehand, but I am uncomfortable knowing I have no answer at all once it resolves. Maybe that's a mistake - you've certainly tested the deck more than me - but it worked for me. I ripped the KG a few turns after top landed and before he got top online, which kept me in the game.

Yet you decided to run less discard to help supplement the combo match. I don't understand. What good is a turn three Pernicious Deed when you are going to (more than likely) run into Daze or some other cheap counter to make it stick? And even then, you'd have to wait a turn - before it gets Stifled. And you can't really use the argument that you would use discard to knock out cards in their hand to protect the Deed because in that scenario all you would need to do is discard their relevant cards you needed the Deed for to begin with.

Board sweepers in this deck are not necessary for the simple fact they are redundant and do everything your removal and discard can already do to slow an opponent down enough where they find themselves having to regress from their original strategy and press on trying to stop your threats.


I think what we're talking about here is like what TPS went through in Vintage; adding more diversified disruption which, while it distracts from the deck's focus, protects the deck against otherwise diffult matchups. Maybe I would have done better mono black, but I can tell you this: there was NEVER a point in the tourny that I wished Deed was Therapy instead, or where I regretted running some fetchlands. Not one.

You're comparing a multilateral discard spell to a board sweeper. There is little comparison.

You're also opening the deck up to color-screw against "tempo advantage" decks predicated on stopping your fetches and non-basics. The whole point of this deck is to render those cards useless from the very beginning. Again, an opponent who opens with a Wasteland will be sorry to learn you run a lot of basics. And with the limited number of green spells you splashed for anyways, opening yourself up to that kind of hate just isn't worth the time and effort.

Flexibility has a price, and for a deck like this it is masked as inconsistency.

[MaximumC]

You ninja-edited that post, and I saw it for many minutes paying close attention to detail. It was not included originally.

What? No I didnt, the original post is quoted in your own response, dude. You just missed it, just like I missed what seat to go to for Match 5. :)



Flexibility has a price, and for a deck like this it is masked as inconsistency.

Very possibly. I have not played enough matches to know for sure. I just know that I did not NOTICE any problem with the deck in my matches.

There was one anecdotal example of a tempo player who shot himself in the foot because of my fetchlands, though. He was sitting on a standstill, and when I baited the stifle by using a fetchland... I'll be damned if he didn't stifle it. I know that isn't something you can rely on, but the lols from that play were pretty impressive.

[Michael Keller]

At any rate, all I'm trying to do is help players who are newer to this archetype understand what worked so well for me when I came up with my own list that has been extraordinarily effective - and consistent - for a mono-black deck (there are a lot of newer members to The Source frequenting this thread, so I'm trying to exercise patience). I think some folks need to spend a lot more time practicing with it and learning the intricacies involved and practice away the "itchy trigger finger" associated with most mono-black decks that dump their hands turn one or two.

[Esper3k]

At least for me - I think the biggest thing to understand is that this deck seems to be more midgame/control than an aggro suicide deck. I believe most people see a mono black deck that runs a bunch of hand disruption + Wasteland and automatically assume that it's a Suicide variant.

[Lifeless]

A couple more quick notes:

Needle was fantastic and blew people out. My Merfolk opponent kept a mediocre hand with vials and got destroyed while my Madness opponent was able to counter the 2nd Needle that would have cost him the game (interesting to note that he only had Grip in because I was using Leyline game 2).

I will be testing Vendetta in the Deathmark slot, not so much because I dislike Deathmark, more so that want the extra answers to Lackey and even Muta/Factory.

[EssKay]

That's quite helpful, considering slow got me third place out of seventy people (and third out of thirty-three the tournament before that).

Would you mind elaborating on this vague and (ironically) inconclusive statement? Because from what I gather, one of several things are happening here:

a. You're playing the deck incorrectly.
b. Your build is not optimal.
c. You ran into bad match-up after bad match-up.
d. Your sideboard is not configured properly.
e. You did not sideboard correctly for certain match-ups.
f. You left glaring omissions from your list where something more helpful could have been used.
g. You made tons of play mistakes.
h. You lost tight Game Three's.
i. You ended up playing against opponents who opened the nuts and got you when it counted most.
j. You mulliganed incorrectly and it ended up costing you.

And the list could go on and on. I'm trying to decrypt your logic when you say it is "too slow", because the deck runs (at least) fourteen one-cost spells. The deck intentionally plays like a control deck (which I trust you knew before even playing it), so I'm not sure what you mean you refer to it as slow. It's perfectly tailored for a large and diverse metagame, which is why it has done so well in large events.

I am (personally) still against playing Leyline; that completely alters the entire mulligan strategy of the deck and forces you to decide what is worth taking: A mulligan to find a Leyline down from a strong hand of seven, a mediocre six with a Leyline, or a one-lander in a five-card hand. It's just not worth it when you factor in the lack of an efficient draw engine. That is why the deck uses two for one's to generate card advantage, so that it doesn't want to damage its optimal starts.

The only "four-drop" you want to play is Abyssal Persecutor. And I am super curious if you main-decked Deathmark (and whether or not it would have helped). Reading through your last several posts, you seem to have an issue with speed when it comes to running a mono-black deck. I'm wondering if perhaps this variation isn't suited to your needs, because your "final" conclusion was that it was simply too slow when in fact, that is how the deck is purposely designed to run.

Let me try to elaborate in a similarly snide tone so that maybe you'll actually listen instead of copy/pasting the same tired talking points again.

First, for full disclosure, here is my list:


4 Dark Confidant
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Vampire Nighthawk
3 Vampire Hexmage

3 Bitterblossom
3 Vindicate
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Innocent Blood
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Dark Depths
1 Volrath's Stronghold

9 Swamp
4 Fetch
4 Scrubland

SB:
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Extirpate
2 Perish
3 Engineered Plague
3 Ethersworn Canonist


Clearly, this is not pure Gate. It's Deadguy using the 'disrupt early, control the board, overwhelm' strategy of the Gate. I'm sure you'll just argue that my list is totally wrong, gets hurt by Wasteland/Stifle, and so on, but really I was pretty happy with the changes. I never got screwed by Wasteland or stifle, blew up vials with Vindicate all day long, stole several matches off an early Marit Lage, and beat Dredge by saccing a Hexmage targeting a swamp to nix all his bridges. I'm not sold on Persecutor because at 18 (+Stronghold) lands, I just didn't find myself getting to 4 mana that consistently anyway.

I think Lifeless said it best:
There wasn't a single match where I was blown out and I was usually very close to stabilizing. That's really the whole problem with the deck/strategy. You spend the early part of the game just trying to find an answer to everything your opponent does while chipping away at your own life with Bitterblossom and Bob, trying to find a Jitte or Nighthawk before your own deck kills you. Remember that game you lost against Zoo at the Jupiter tournament? Did you not lose to your own Bob trying to dig for a way to get out of burn range? The deck simply takes too long to stabilize, and when it does it still lets the opponent do whatever they want. Stax tends to stabilize at a low life total too, but when they say stabilize, they mean completely locking the game up, not just having "better board position". Same goes for Counterbalance decks.

The deck "intentionally plays like a control deck", except that control decks respond to what the opponent does, whereas the Gate just sits with its thumb up its ass, hoping to fix everything after they pass turn. StP was the MVP of the day, because you know what tribal decks do? They vial in things like Lackeys and lords and Cursecatchers at the end of your turn, when 8 of your super efficient removal spells are completely fucking worthless. Then they play another guy or two or three, so all your non-targeted removal turns to shit as well. I'm pretty sure the only reason I won my goblins matchups was luck. Both opponents dropped Ringleaders and revealed no goblins, one guy drew lands for at least five consecutive turns, and the other round I won game one at 1 life by recurring Gatekeeper with Stronghod, then stole game 2with Depths, which is good because I was about to be completely overrun.

Yes, we have 12 removal spells....how many creatures does Goblins run? Zoo? What good are they against EtW? Dredge? Zoo actually runs more removal, except that it's burn so it's also reach, whereas your removal doubles as a bunch of goddamned coasters against decks that a. don't play green or b. can play more than one creature per turn.

But I digress. Clearly I'm just building a shit version of the deck and playing it wrong. Every card choice you've made is perfect and that's why the Gate is showing up in the top 16 of so many major tournaments. It's way better than the Rock and Deadguy and every multi-colored deck because it is totally immune to Wasteland and Stifle, two cards that have practically driven the entire Legacy world to mono-colored decks. Plus, who needs more than 4 creatures that don't die to Firespout anyway? Iona on Black isn't a problem because you can just play Extirpate or Macabre, neither of which you need to mulligan to, because it's not like Reanimator goes off quickly or runs any Duress effects. Also, Daze is no big deal because the curve stops at 4, and with 18 lands you've got a whopping 34% chance of hitting four lands by turn four!

Honestly, this deck is good in a lot of categories, but not really great at anything. It isn't as fast or agressive as Goblins, Zoo, Merfolk, Elves, Dredge, Combo, etc, nor can it protect itself or establish board position as well as Lands, Countertop, Blue anything, or Stax. Explain to me what the Gate does better than any of Legacy's leading archetypes?

[Lifeless]

I'm not sold on Dark Depths but I will say that Hexmage is a nice proactive solution to Jace. Did having no board against control come up yesterday?

[bakofried]

@Esskay
My only problem is that you say the deck is too slow, doesn't stabilize quickly enough, etc., and making judgments on a deck you didn't play. Furthermore, you run discard to rip those aether vials out of their hand (in the case of tribal decks) not to mention tribal decks get wrecked by Jitte, which should be run as a 3-of MD (this is coming from a long-time Goblins player)

[bakofried]

Double post.

[EssKay]

@Esskay
My only problem is that you say the deck is too slow, doesn't stabilize quickly enough, etc., and making judgments on a deck you didn't play. Furthermore, you run discard to rip those aether vials out of their hand (in the case of tribal decks) not to mention tribal decks get wrecked by Jitte, which should be run as a 3-of MD (this is coming from a long-time Goblins player)

Yeah Duressing out Vial is super badass when you play first. Problem is, sometimes you don't play first, and then you're boned! When your Duress reveals a bunch of dudes and maybe some burn or just eats a Daze, you're starting out on the wrong foot. I do agree on Jitte as a 3-of though, since it's not nearly as effective against tribal once they have a few lords out.

But you're right, in the end I didn't really play the Gate. If I would have had Deathmark instead of Swords, I would have been in much better shape against EoT Lackey and various Lords! And I could have played a Cabal Therapy and stared at the Persecutor in my hand when staring down two lords, a Lackey, and a Piledriver instead of dropping a 20/20 and winning the next turn! And I DEFINITELY still would have beaten Belcher with a well-timed Spinning Darkness instead of Canonist!

Edit:
Holy shit I forgot to mention my obvious error in not playing Dystopia ("the best card in the deck")! Man would it ever have bailed me out against Goblins, Dredge, Merfolk, Goblins, Merfolk, Reanimator, and Belcher! HOW COULD I BE SO CARELESS?!?!

[ScatmanX]

But you're right, in the end I didn't really play the Gate. If I would have had Deathmark instead of Swords, I would have been in much better shape against EoT Lackey and various Lords! And I could have played a Cabal Therapy and stared at the Persecutor in my hand when staring down two lords, a Lackey, and a Piledriver instead of dropping a 20/20 and winning the next turn! And I DEFINITELY still would have beaten Belcher with a well-timed Spinning Darkness instead of Canonist!

Edit:
Holy shit I forgot to mention my obvious error in not playing Dystopia ("the best card in the deck")! Man would it ever have bailed me out against Goblins, Dredge, Merfolk, Goblins, Merfolk, Reanimator, and Belcher! HOW COULD I BE SO CARELESS?!?!

I'm guessing he's trying to be sarcastic...

[MaximumC]

Holy shit I forgot to mention my obvious error in not playing Dystopia ("the best card in the deck")! Man would it ever have bailed me out against Goblins, Dredge, Merfolk, Goblins, Merfolk, Reanimator, and Belcher! HOW COULD I BE SO CARELESS?!?!

Wow, dude, I thought Hollywood was a little snippy with me, too, but you're completely over the top. And the man deserves a little credit, I mean, he's the author of the deck we're tinkering with in this thread, isn't he?

That said, your last three posts are so over the top that they wrap around from being offensive to be hilarious. :wink:

[mujadaddy]

I forgot to mention my obvious error in not playing Dystopia3 Hexmage, 3 Depths, no Persecutor, no Cabals is not an equivalent card pool. 18 lands that give you mana isn't either. I'm sure that configuration was a nightmare for mulliganing.

Your points are not incorrect, but you're making them from the perspective of a different card pool than the one in this thread. That deck you played is Bw Hex/Depths. And yes, it does make a difference as far as advice goes.

Hollywood isn't just fucking around when he says the list is VERY TIGHT. We had 40+ posts discussing changing TWO CARDS (adding a swamp). Weren't you here for that? I didn't agree that the list was that precisely tuned at first, either, but it is.

We finally have your list, and a list of your matchups, but no report that I saw. At this point, though, you need advice from another thread.

[ns2973]

Wow, dude, I thought Hollywood was a little snippy with me, too, but you're completely over the top. And the man deserves a little credit, I mean, he's the author of the deck we're tinkering with in this thread, isn't he?

That said, your last three posts are so over the top that they wrap around from being offensive to be hilarious. :wink:

Indeed, Hollywood spends x amount of time (more than anyone in this thread i guarantee) testing the deck and tweaking it to a point where he plays it fairly well and has top 8'd in sizable tournaments. Then people trot out "the deck is slow" when it turns out they played a different build, and then chastise the creator of the deck for deckbuilding choices without explaining with testing?

[EssKay]

3 Hexmage, 3 Depths, no Persecutor, no Cabals is not an equivalent card pool. 18 lands that give you mana isn't either. I'm sure that configuration was a nightmare for mulliganing.

Your points are not incorrect, but you're making them from the perspective of a different card pool than the one in this thread. That deck you played is Bw Hex/Depths. And yes, it does make a difference as far as advice goes.

Hollywood isn't just fucking around when he says the list is VERY TIGHT. We had 40+ posts discussing changing TWO CARDS (adding a swamp). Weren't you here for that? I didn't agree that the list was that precisely tuned at first, either, but it is.

We finally have your list, and a list of your matchups, but no report that I saw. At this point, though, you need advice from another thread.

I'm not asking for advice, and I'm not saying my list is the perfect example of black control, or that it's any better than Hollywood's. I am saying that the general strategy does not work as well as some would suggest. There is not enough removal to match dedicated aggro decks, and not enough aggro to overwhelm control. You just have to hope that your discard hits enough relavent stuff in every matchup to make up for the rest of the deck sitting on the fence between between control and aggro and not really being stellar at either.

Hollywood decries Deed because it's reactive instead of proactive....the whole fucking deck is reactive! You let them do whatever they want during their turn, then try to clean up the mess during your turn, hoping you can keep up until they run out of steam. It's rope-a-dope, but while you protect yourself and slowly build your board, you eat away at your own life total with Bobs and Bitterblossoms. Then all it takes is some well-placed removal and a few swings to finish you off. Call it control if you want, but real control decks do not give their opponents nearly as much freedom as this one does.

Just look at the numbers! The format's premier aggro decks run 20+ creatures to your 12 removal spells, 8 of which don't target. Dedicated blue control decks run 12+ counters, with 8 or more removal spells on top of that, to your ~16 creatures (plus their removal often hits lots of stuff at once like Firespout and Wrath). Even Zoo has enough removal to deal with every creature in the deck! Hell, even with my crappy Zoo list that lacks Chain Lightnings and goyfs, I was still able to beat the Gate when I proxied up Hollywood's exact list. From the Zoo point of view, you just do what you do against other control decks: keep dropping threats, get them into burn range, win.

In the end though, I'm just tired of seeing Hollywood act like a condescending prick to anyone that questions the deck or his choices. Yes, the list is extremely tight. It has been thoroughly optimized to be mediocre against two of the major archetypes, and roll over and stick it's ass in the air for the third. Congratulations, get over yourself. To be fair though, if he gets first in that Jupiter-sponsored championships whatnot, I will personally mail you all my extra Chub Toads, and a one dollar bill altered to make it look like Washington is smoking a huge pole (I can make this alteration to the Chub Toads too for twenty American dollars).

P.S. - I only had to mulligan twice the entire day due to not having enough lands, but thanks for your assumption!

[MaximumC]

Hollywood decries Deed because it's reactive instead of proactive....the whole fucking deck is reactive! You let them do whatever they want during their turn, then try to clean up the mess during your turn, hoping you can keep up until they run out of steam. It's rope-a-dope, but while you protect yourself and slowly build your board, you eat away at your own life total with Bobs and Bitterblossoms. Then all it takes is some well-placed removal and a few swings to finish you off. Call it control if you want, but real control decks do not give their opponents nearly as much freedom as this one does.


Well, e-peens aside, all of the decks in this thread seem to take that tack. You splash white for StP and Vindicate. I splash green for Deed and Grip. The debate is really just about what form of removal makes the cut in this deck, isnt it? No matter what you play, you're out to establish control before rolling out your own threats.



Just look at the numbers! The format's premier aggro decks run 20+ creatures to your 12 removal spells, 8 of which don't target. Dedicated blue control decks run 12+ counters, with 8 or more removal spells on top of that, to your ~16 creatures (plus their removal often hits lots of stuff at once like Firespout and Wrath).


Thats not totally fair; having creatures in the deck does not mean you see them. Bob is a more efficient draw engine than, say, Standstill, and you're making them discard their gas as you go. Once Zoo truly is out-drawing you with creatures, you likely have BB or Persecutor on-line, and it's not a big deal if a 4/5 goyf sticks around. I'm not sayin' you're wrong exactly, but there's parts of The Gate that I think are designed to account for opponents with greater threat density.



To be fair though, if he gets first in that Jupiter-sponsored championships whatnot, I will personally mail you all my extra Chub Toads, and a one dollar bill altered to make it look like Washington is smoking a huge pole (I can make this alteration to the Chub Toads too for twenty American dollars).


I took some acetone and made Jace, the Chub Toad. I could use more.

[sporenfrosch1411]

Regarding the sideboard:

I hate dystopia. Sorry, but i freaking hate it. The only matchup that i´d take the life-raping drawback this card has, is enchantress/solidarity. Its so freaking amazing how many life this card consumes.
Basically, when u board it in, you play it turn3. That means on Turn 6 it costed you 6 life allready and all that follows afterwards equals death.
In a control'ish deck like the gate, with Bitterblossom and Dark Confidant it is just not that good imo. I tested it out several times now and often i found myself not beeing able to balance the loss of life by gaining life with Jitte and Nighthawk. Its straight forward stupid. All your opponent has to do when you drop dystopia is to get rid of your jitte, then watch while you get eaten by your own card. The main problem is that i cant get rid of dystopia myself. Even when you took the board over and are about to win, it still eats life like hell....


I
srsly
hate
dystopia

I know that its the only answer to all those enchantments that Staxx and Solidarity play....and that will stay the matches that i will board it in. But It is suicide versus zoo, g/w aggro and loam -> screw this card in any aggro matchup!

[Roman Candle]

Regarding the sideboard:

I hate dystopia. Sorry, but i freaking hate it. The only matchup that i´d take the life-raping drawback this card has, is enchantress/solidarity. Its so freaking amazing how many life this card consumes.
Basically, when u board it in, you play it turn3. That means on Turn 6 it costed you 6 life allready and all that follows afterwards equals death.
In a control'ish deck like the gate, with Bitterblossom and Dark Confidant it is just not that good imo. I tested it out several times now and often i found myself not beeing able to balance the loss of life by gaining life with Jitte and Nighthawk. Its straight forward stupid. All your opponent has to do when you drop dystopia is to get rid of your jitte, then watch while you get eaten by your own card. The main problem is that i cant get rid of dystopia myself. Even when you took the board over and are about to win, it still eats life like hell....


I
srsly
hate
dystopia

I know that its the only answer to all those enchantments that Staxx and Solidarity play....and that will stay the matches that i will board it in. But It is suicide versus zoo, g/w aggro and loam -> screw this card in any aggro matchup!

You do realize you can just choose not to pay Dystopia's upkeep and let it die, right?

[sporenfrosch1411]

I am a freaking idiot.....o m f g
This belongs on ibash or something .... (mtgbash should be invented)

You are totally right.
Damn, playing magic for like over 12 years and i never thought of this....man im ashamed of myself :D



Back @ Topic:

Would you see an option to integrate Sensei´s Divining Top in this list? I feel like it would be a great addition to Dark Confidant and since ur sorcery speed anyway with most of what you got, why not use their turn to dive a bit into you library :) ?
I think a 2off would improve this deck, but i seriously dont know what to cut. My first thought was to cut 1 Deathmark and 1 Hymn to tourach, but that "cutting hymn" part really is not where it should go on second thought...

[Faka]

Dear folks, at the moment i'am playing the gate and testing the follow sideboard suggested by hollywood (4 spinning dark, 3 faerie, 3 soul sipkes, 3 dystopia, 2 sword of light and shadow). Just some thoughts: against cemitery, i tried 4 planar voids and i have found that they work very well against dredge and loam, besides the fact that they simple makes tarmogoyfs, reliquaries and lavamancers useless. The problem is that they decrease the power and effectiveness of therapies.

Regarding the matchs against goblins: i think one problem agaisnt this deck is duress. Besides a vial or a werring weird we can do nothing to this deck with duress. Just a thought: considering we have therapies that can catch almost everything, can be good to replace duress with inquisiton of kozilek to reinforce the gate against goblins and elves.

At the moment i play this list: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=36578

At least, i love the deck and i feel it is very flexible to any environment.

[pippo84]

Dear folks, at the moment i'am playing the gate and testing the follow sideboard suggested by hollywood (4 spinning dark, 3 faerie, 3 soul sipkes, 3 dystopia, 2 sword of light and shadow). Just some thoughts: against cemitery, i tried 4 planar voids and i have found that they work very well against dredge and loam, besides the fact that they simple makes tarmogoyfs, reliquaries and lavamancers useless. The problem is that they decrease the power and effectiveness of therapies.

Regarding the matchs against goblins: i think one problem agaisnt this deck is duress. Besides a vial or a werring weird we can do nothing to this deck with duress. Just a thought: considering we have therapies that can catch almost everything, can be good to replace duress with inquisiton of kozilek to reinforce the gate against goblins and elves.

At the moment i play this list: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=36578

At least, i love the deck and i feel it is very flexible to any environment.

I thought of the same thing really. But with this deck is it so important to get creatures? There are tons of removals to take care of normal threats. What does Duress take that Inquisition can't? And vice-versa obviously.. By this I mean important targets..


P.S. @ Hollywood: Is the Sideboard posted in the opening the one you are currently testing?

[sporenfrosch1411]

Duress can handle FoW, Moat and Planeswalker just name a few....
I at first was also mistaken, but Duress clearly is better here, cause of the removal you have for creatures anyway.

@Planar Void: They remove your Therapies, thats why i would not play them. I think flashbacking Therapy is way too important :) Besided you have FaeryMacabre or Leyline of the void as other Options that work just as well and dont "hate" your own graveyard ;)

What i ask myself at the moment is, if Extirpate may be an option regarding graveyard hate (instead of Faery or Leyline).
Some facts why i think about this card at the moment:
+It costs 1 mana, which is acceptable
+It has Splitsecond, so there cant be any tricks to get around it, it will resolve :)
+It (obviously) removes any nonbasicland card, which means you could even remove a dual that u have destroyed with a wasteland, maybe cutting him of a color - this ofc is just mindmagic, but the more options the better ;)
+It synergizes with your discard.
+It has instant speed
+/-It doesnt affect the board, but it at least affects the ongoing play in the way that your "problem" you target it on is gone entirely
-It sure is not as fast as the Leyline or the Faery. It costs one mana (y in comparision this is a downside)


Any 1 has tested Extirpate yet?

[Esper3k]

The biggest thing that Duress grabs that Inquisition doesn't take is Force of Will. Humility and other rare 4 cost spells (Armageddon, Smokestack) are in there too, but much rarer to see. I guess Jace would be another one, but the deck runs plenty of creatures to deal with Jace.

Inquisition grabs pretty much everything else that's relevant (I've been testing it in Eva Green and have been pretty happy with it).

[pippo84]

Duress can handle FoW, Moat and Planeswalker just name a few....
I at first was also mistaken, but Duress clearly is better here, cause of the removal you have for creatures anyway.

@Planar Void: They remove your Therapies, thats why i would not play them. I think flashbacking Therapy is way too important :) Besided you have FaeryMacabre or Leyline of the void as other Options that work just as well and dont "hate" your own graveyard ;)

What i ask myself at the moment is, if Extirpate may be an option regarding graveyard hate (instead of Faery or Leyline).
Some facts why i think about this card at the moment:
+It costs 1 mana, which is acceptable
+It has Splitsecond, so there cant be any tricks to get around it, it will resolve :)
+It (obviously) removes any nonbasicland card, which means you could even remove a dual that u have destroyed with a wasteland, maybe cutting him of a color - this ofc is just mindmagic, but the more options the better ;)
+It synergizes with your discard.
+It has instant speed
+/-It doesnt affect the board, but it at least affects the ongoing play in the way that your "problem" you target it on is gone entirely
-It sure is not as fast as the Leyline or the Faery. It costs one mana (y in comparision this is a downside)


Any 1 has tested Extirpate yet?

I think that Extirpate deserves 4 slots in the SB of this deck. It can screw opponent's plans and is crucial in some MU's, not just Loam or Dredge. It's also great against Jace Control. This said I would also try and fit 2 other GY slots, possibly Crypt or Trap. Probably Crypt though. I'm not sure that Faerie is enough against dredge..

[AlterEgo]

The biggest thing that Duress grabs that Inquisition doesn't take is Force of Will. Humility and other rare 4 cost spells (Armageddon, Smokestack) are in there too, but much rarer to see. I guess Jace would be another one, but the deck runs plenty of creatures to deal with Jace.

Inquisition grabs pretty much everything else that's relevant (I've been testing it in Eva Green and have been pretty happy with it).

I too run IoK, but just for the fact that it's dead less often. It can grab two of the most problematic cards: Counterbalance and Goblin Lackey.
On the other hand, Duress does the same with 'balance and Jace (who, by the way, can bounce creatures!)
So I'm strongly considering to go back to Duress... and everytime I'm there, I wish it was Inquisition far too often.

At Humility... Jitte and Sword still make your creatures a threat.

[CorpT]

Doesn't Thoughtseize get all of those? Jace, Lackey, FoW, Humility, CB, Top, etc...

[mujadaddy]

Doesn't Thoughtseize get all of those? Jace, Lackey, FoW, Humility, CB, Top, etc...Duress is the right choice. Unlike Hollywood, I'm not convinced we don't need a sweeper, for blowouts. But if Gobs & Fish are the real issue, I've always liked Sword of Fire & Ice better than the Light & Shadow, as a card, anyway... /shrug.


P.S. - I only had to mulligan twice the entire day due to not having enough lands, but thanks for your assumption!You know, you say that, and you throw around little tidbits of information when it suits you, but you haven't posted a tournament report, so we're left guessing why you performed so badly.

[sporenfrosch1411]

Nobody has anything to say about Sensei´s Divining Top, yet ?
:(

@Extirpate
Has any 1 tested it and can say something where its better/worse than McFae or Leyline? at Pippo: yeah, thats what caught my attention in extirpate too :)

[Lifeless]

Nobody has anything to say about Sensei´s Divining Top, yet ?
:(

@Extirpate
Has any 1 tested it and can say something where its better/worse than McFae or Leyline?

I think Top could be nice actually. Fixing your draws, revealing less damage with Bob, keeping Jace from fatesealing you out of the game, and occasionally grabbing the 1 extra card you need off the top to stabilize. It's something I might take a look at but I'm not happy with having to cut anything after agonizing about getting 1 more Swamp. A couple copies are promising enough to test.

Clearly Extripate would be at it's best against Madness or Loam control. That is, any deck where the game may hinge on 1 specific card in the yard. I'll be giving it a play-test sometime as I'm not convinced it's better than Faerie in those spots.

[Michael Keller]

Honestly (Esskay), don't get your panties all in a knot because you crapped the bed playing a shitty B/g Dark Depths deck and pissed out with it, only to take your frustrations out on all of us. No one forced or coerced you into playing anything you didn't want to play.

Grow up and learn to take criticism. Apparently I'm not the only fellow who thinks that way.

Also, I have a right to stretch and stroke my e-penis all I want; I created this thread and have spent countless hours trying to exercise patience with newer, inexperienced Sourcers recommending cards like Howl From Beyond and Bad Moon. I've placed highly with this deck multiple times, and all that means is that the deck itself did most of the work. I could care less how or what you choose and I can gloat all I want because, well frankly, I fucking earned that right. I only get condescending when people do not listen and speak with ignorance. And this thread deserves equal-opportunity from all people who have partaken an active and exciting interest in this deck.

In short: Stop your whining like a little bitch, put up some results with the deck, speak intelligently, and earn credibility in what you say. If you can't back up your logic and debate heatedly without attacking someone personally, that's your own fault. I have four decks published in this forum. I've been an active member of The Source for almost a decade. Credibility goes a long way in how seriously people take your ideas. I've earned the right to be where I am and say what I want to say - and people listen.

New people need harsh words and strict guidance (albeit some flexibility) when posting and recommending ideas. It may be a moderator's job, but as the author of this thread and main facilitator of the discussion, I take my work seriously.

[mujadaddy]

Just spotted this: 8th out of 27 http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=37394

4 Abyssal Persecutor
4 Dark Confidant
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Vampire Nighthawk

2 Diabolic Edict
2 Cabal Therapy
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Innocent Blood

3 Bitterblossom
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Umezawa's Jitte

15 Swamp
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland

//Sideboard:

2 Faerie Macabre
3 Extirpate
2 Perish
2 Dystopia
3 Engineered Plague
3 Pithing Needle


Top 7 were Red-White Sligh, Storm/Tendrils, Kira-Folk, UGr "Red Horizons", BG Hex/Depths, RGW Survival, & ThopterTop.

[sporenfrosch1411]

Is it only me who thinks that Cabal Therapy is underestimated oO

I see so many lists running "only" 2 of them while i think about how to get a fourth in atm :D
In my opinion this card is so freaking good, its like "i wish u had no XYZ, oh ok, here i think this grants my wish" :D

But i do like the addition of Divining Top - also something i would like to tweak in.

What i NEVER will like, is how people play Urborg, leaving themselves vulnerable to Wasteland.... i just dont see why those are not just basic swamps :/
(i play only 3 Wastelands and therefore 18 swamps btw....i think its enough to get rid of a critical land that may appear on the board - im not into this mana denial plan with 4 Wastelands, it feels to random for me and i rather have a stable, unattackable manabase)


Here are some more general thoughts from me:

-Bitterblossom is a great card. A bit slow but just epic and gamewinning. Im still unsure if it is to be played as a 2off, 3off or even as the whole epicness of playset´ness :D
-Cabal Therapy can be crucial, seeing that its virtually 8 times pointed discard.
-The equippments in TheGate play a big role in my opinion. Aside from Percy, all creatures will only get gamewinningly-threatening when equipped (y, all do a ok part on their own, but equipped its overkill-time). I dont think that going below 3 is a good idea, i´d even consider going to 4 if you got 3 Bitterblossom in your deck
-Im still not sure if Sword of Fire/Ice or Light/Shadow is better here :D In general, Fire/Ice is way better and i like the protection from "Goblins, Burn, Bounce and Merfolk" more than i like the protection from "swords to plowshares / path to exile". On the other hand the recursion is nice....but is it better than the draw? i dont know :/ I allways feel like drawing is superiour :)

[MaximumC]

But i do like the addition of Divining Top - also something i would like to tweak in.


I dunno. In my (limited) experience with this deck, I really needed each of my draws to be gas. I was happy to see Bob in my opening hand, or after we were in topdeck mode, but in the early and midgame I wanted to draw disruption, disruption, disruption. Do you really want to draw a top instead of Therapy, Blossom, or Blood on turn 2?

The other thing I noticed was that I seldom had spare mana to spin the top in early game. The deck curves out pretty well, and I found myself using all of my mana each turn consistently just to get control.

Plus, to maximize Top's ability to dig effectively for answers, you need to run alot of fetchlands. El Capitane seems to think that is a mistake.

[pippo84]

I was thinking about sideboarding.. Against Bant what do you cut for Dystopia? Seems like I want every card in the MD against them..

[Michael Keller]

I was thinking about sideboarding.. Against Bant what do you cut for Dystopia? Seems like I want every card in the MD against them..

For Dystopia, I typically look at cutting Equipment or individualized pieces of removal and discard so you can round it out nicely and still have the effectiveness of Dystopia.

Something like this might help:

-1 Innocent Blood
-1 Hymn to Tourach
-1 Cabal Therapy

+3 Dystopia

Depending on what list you play will obviously affect the outcome of what you want to sideboard in and out.

[Esper3k]

I'm also against the use of Top in this deck.

Yes, it synergizes with Bob, but that's about it. Without playing fetchlands or some way to consistently shuffle the library, you don't really get the maximum use out of Top.

Also curious for the more experienced players of this deck - how does it stack up against Aggro Loam? It seems like a Chalice @ 1 = bad day.

[pippo84]

For Dystopia, I typically look at cutting Equipment or individualized pieces of removal and discard so you can round it out nicely and still have the effectiveness of Dystopia.

Something like this might help:

-1 Innocent Blood
-1 Hymn to Tourach
-1 Cabal Therapy

+3 Dystopia

Depending on what list you play will obviously affect the outcome of what you want to sideboard in and out.


@ Hollywood: I am trying your exact list and found it very good ATM! Thnks for the advice.

I'm not convinced on the SB though. I like the idea of SoFI or SoSL, but I'm not sure if there's enought space. I think Extirpate is mandatory and don't like the idea of Leyline. Needles are probably good, but I'm not to sold on them ATM.
Soul Spike and Spinning Darkness are strange.. I like the one against aggro boarding out Bob, but the one against combo seems like a nice idea, but.. I don't know, how about Mindbreak Trap?

[MaximumC]

Soul Spike and Spinning Darkness are strange..


Soul Spike, unless I mis-read Hollywood's intention, is to punish the opponent after an Ad Nausem. The problem is that Spike isn't useful against other combo decks like Belcher, Solidarity or Spring Tide. They're not top decks, I admit, but I ran into two of them at the 5k. Thorns of Amethyst should work against the entire slate of combo decks that want to draw their deck in a single turn, but admittedly, they're not AS good against ANT as Spike.

Spinning Darkness is bad-ass. I only had two in my board, and swapped them in for Wastelands versus Merfolk. Bob did blast the hell out of me once with them, but I still went on to win. Being able to zap another fish for free on turn 2 or three was HUGE.

[Wakkarr]

Honestly (Esskay), don't get your panties all in a knot because you crapped the bed playing a shitty B/g Dark Depths deck and pissed out with it, only to take your frustrations out on all of us. No one forced or coerced you into playing anything you didn't want to play.

Grow up and learn to take criticism. Apparently I'm not the only fellow who thinks that way.

Also, I have a right to stretch and stroke my e-penis all I want; I created this thread and have spent countless hours trying to exercise patience with newer, inexperienced Sourcers recommending cards like Howl From Beyond and Bad Moon. I've placed highly with this deck multiple times, and all that means is that the deck itself did most of the work. I could care less how or what you choose and I can gloat all I want because, well frankly, I fucking earned that right. I only get condescending when people do not listen and speak with ignorance. And this thread deserves equal-opportunity from all people who have partaken an active and exciting interest in this deck.

In short: Stop your whining like a little bitch, put up some results with the deck, speak intelligently, and earn credibility in what you say. If you can't back up your logic and debate heatedly without attacking someone personally, that's your own fault. I have four decks published in this forum. I've been an active member of The Source for almost a decade. Credibility goes a long way in how seriously people take your ideas. I've earned the right to be where I am and say what I want to say - and people listen.

New people need harsh words and strict guidance (albeit some flexibility) when posting and recommending ideas. It may be a moderator's job, but as the author of this thread and main facilitator of the discussion, I take my work seriously.

Its hilarious how much you sound like Cavius. This thread isn't here so you can 'stretch and stroke' your e-peen. If you want to make yourself feel big and important then do it somewhere else. You don't see people like Gerry Thompson using the fact that they 'made' a deck to shoot down new idea, and that guy made the deck which dominated last extended season. This thread is here to develop the deck, not so you can shoot people down to make yourself feel good. In short, you're a small fry, we all are, so pull your head in.

On the Inquisition of Kozilek Vs Duress discussion, I have fallen on the side of Inq. Hitting Force is nice, and Jace/Moat are issues, even though most of the threats are flying. I have found that with the resurgence of Goblins, having fewer near-dead cards is a big plus. Force isn't a big deal because you are usually fine with trading 1 for 2, unless its a Persecutor. I've flipped back and forth a few times, and like AlterEgo, I find that too often when I am playing duress I wish I had Inq of Koz, but rarely the other way around.

[Aggro_zombies]

I'm also against the use of Top in this deck.

Yes, it synergizes with Bob, but that's about it. Without playing fetchlands or some way to consistently shuffle the library, you don't really get the maximum use out of Top.

Also curious for the more experienced players of this deck - how does it stack up against Aggro Loam? It seems like a Chalice @ 1 = bad day.
Just make them discard it. Chalice at one rarely comes down turn one anyway.

Generally, black decks with Extirpate do well against Aggro Loam because you tear apart their hand, then force them to sacrifice the few creatures they have while providing a good clock. The game should effectively be over before Seismic Assualt-Loam come together. In games two and three, you can just Extirpate the Loams and kill the Bobs, and then their deck is awful.

[DarthVicious]

Spinning Darkness is fantastic. Free spell that sucks the life out of little critters? Sign me up.
Soul Spike is kinda meh. There's not enough AdN out there anymore, I don't think. Considering I'm running a playset of Liches, I may be including Pithing Needle very soon. Main/Side, I don't know yet, probably main, but I'm definitely getting them.
Leyline of the Void is the absolute best grave hate there is, in my opinion. Extirpate is good, but you can get M11 Leylines cheaper. I'd go 2-3 Extirpate main, 4 Leyline side if I were running both.
I agree on most of the creature base, Blossoms, Persecutor, Gateeeper, Nighthawk, etc. I'm running Liches also because I really want to know how good they are. I've had people scoop to a turn 2 Lightning Greaves into a turn 3 Phylactery Lich, swing. Or they scoop to a Lich in play when I wipe their board with Damnation. Other times I find I got one or two Lich in hand with no artifact. More testing.

People should be 'stroking their e-peen' in private.

[Michael Keller]

Its hilarious how much you sound like Cavius. This thread isn't here so you can 'stretch and stroke' your e-peen. If you want to make yourself feel big and important then do it somewhere else. You don't see people like Gerry Thompson using the fact that they 'made' a deck to shoot down new idea, and that guy made the deck which dominated last extended season. This thread is here to develop the deck, not so you can shoot people down to make yourself feel good. In short, you're a small fry, we all are, so pull your head in.

On the Inquisition of Kozilek Vs Duress discussion, I have fallen on the side of Inq. Hitting Force is nice, and Jace/Moat are issues, even though most of the threats are flying. I have found that with the resurgence of Goblins, having fewer near-dead cards is a big plus. Force isn't a big deal because you are usually fine with trading 1 for 2, unless its a Persecutor. I've flipped back and forth a few times, and like AlterEgo, I find that too often when I am playing duress I wish I had Inq of Koz, but rarely the other way around.

The fact you even put me in the same sentence as someone like "Cavius" is absurd, when you've got a whopping twelve posts to your name on here with no credibility what so ever. I don't tell anyone what they should or shouldn't do. I know what it takes to develop a deck in this format; I've been doing it for years. I'm the guy who took the initiative to start this thread, so don't presume to tell me that this thread is here to develop the deck - that much is obvious. This thread has been frequented by inexperienced, relatively newer users (or "small fries", as you put it), who find the whole concept appealing and affordable. But do not even begin to clear your conscious at my expense as you have no idea how many large events I've placed highly in.

You attack my integrity, and I don't like it. You call me something like a "small fry", and I'll fire back with credentials. People are jealous of success, and I honestly don't give a damn what you think of me or what I've done to try and develop the format. I take good care of the people I know and speak to, and am one of the best at what I do.

I'm active duty in the Navy and take a lot of spare time trying to educate "small fries" who pop up in a forum we're all working tirelessly to facilitate only to be bogged down with poor suggestions without a damn reason why someone chose to play whatever it is they suggest. People left and right have been asking me for advice in this thread, and I'm doing my best to keep up with helping the people that need it. I've dedicated my life to helping others, so if I come off as a bit "overly assertive", it's only because people have a tendency to not listen, and then play a completely different deck (with something like Vampire Hexmage and Dark Depths), shit the bed with it, and then attack me because someone picked on them at school today.

Doesn't work that way, guy.

Don't you ever attack my integrity, my hard-earned status (and rating) in this format, or tireless contributions I've tried to make whether they failed or passed the test. What matters is trying your best, and that's what I do. And I place and place quite often. Again: You dismiss me as being a nobody, and I'll bury you under a mountain of credentials (unlike the former, who guises himself in forums and undermines the productivity of the advancement of the format for his own personal agenda).

Remember: The only time I mentioned how highly the deck placed was when one other guy called it "slow" without so much as an additional sentence why he felt that way. If I told you that Deck "A" has already proven itself multiple times in the format by using factual information, and then some other guy comes along and says, "Deck 'A' is too slow", you're going to begin to question the legitimacy of this person and why they state those claims. That's the only reason I did that - just so we're clear.

A lot of people need to learn to stand up for their beliefs and ideas with conviction; that's what facilitates a good, heated discussion. Don't cry because you need someone to baby you and reassure you that Hollywood didn't "pick on you". You're (hopefully) a grown man who can stand up and defend his ideas with others. Become a leader of men and take the ball and run with it in this forum; I'm all for it.

Lord knows I do need a break from this shit.

[bakofried]

@Esskay
You missed my point. My only point was that you were critiquing a deck you did not play; ergo, take your discussion of that deck to a different thread.

[Wakkarr]

The fact you even put me in the same sentence as someone like "Cavius" is absurd, when you've got a whopping twelve posts to your name on here with no credibility what so ever. I don't tell anyone what they should or shouldn't do. I know what it takes to develop a deck in this format; I've been doing it for years. I'm the guy who took the initiative to start this thread, so don't presume to tell me that this thread is here to develop the deck - that much is obvious. This thread has been frequented by inexperienced, relatively newer users (or "small fries", as you put it), who find the whole concept appealing and affordable. But do not even begin to clear your conscious at my expense as you have no idea how many large events I've placed highly in.

You attack my integrity, and I don't like it. You call me something like a "small fry", and I'll fire back with credentials. People are jealous of success, and I honestly don't give a damn what you think of me or what I've done to try and develop the format. I take good care of the people I know and speak to, and am one of the best at what I do.

I'm active duty in the Navy and take a lot of spare time trying to educate "small fries" who pop up in a forum we're all working tirelessly to facilitate only to be bogged down with poor suggestions without a damn reason why someone chose to play whatever it is they suggest. People left and right have been asking me for advice in this thread, and I'm doing my best to keep up with helping the people that need it. I've dedicated my life to helping others, so if I come off as a bit "overly assertive", it's only because people have a tendency to not listen, and then play a completely different deck (with something like Vampire Hexmage and Dark Depths), shit the bed with it, and then attack me because someone picked on them at school today.

Doesn't work that way, guy.

Don't you ever attack my integrity, my hard-earned status (and rating) in this format, or tireless contributions I've tried to make whether they failed or passed the test. What matters is trying your best, and that's what I do. And I place and place quite often. Again: You dismiss me as being a nobody, and I'll bury you under a mountain of credentials (unlike the former, who guises himself in forums and undermines the productivity of the advancement of the format for his own personal agenda).

Remember: The only time I mentioned how highly the deck placed was when one other guy called it "slow" without so much as an additional sentence why he felt that way. If I told you that Deck "A" has already proven itself multiple times in the format by using factual information, and then some other guy comes along and says, "Deck 'A' is too slow", you're going to begin to question the legitimacy of this person and why they state those claims. That's the only reason I did that - just so we're clear.

A lot of people need to learn to stand up for their beliefs and ideas with conviction; that's what facilitates a good, heated discussion. Don't cry because you need someone to baby you and reassure you that Hollywood didn't "pick on you". You're (hopefully) a grown man who can stand up and defend his ideas with others. Become a leader of men and take the ball and run with it in this forum; I'm all for it.

Lord knows I do need a break from this shit.

By 'small fries' I mean in the larger world of magic almost everyone who posts in these forums doesn't posses anywhere near the level of skill, understanding of the game, and experience of people like Pat Chapin/LSV/Conley Woods etc... There is nothing wrong with that, but don't act like you are doing everyone a big favour by being brash and dismissing other peoples idea and criticisms of the deck.

I didn't attack your integrity, just your demeanor, openness to other ideas and criticisms of the deck. Though I'll admit that wailing on a guy when they just say 'its too slow', when they played a different deck is fair enough.

You're right about one thing, I have no idea how many events you have done well in, and I don't really care, as it isn't relevant. Which is why I didn't criticize your integrity or play skill, just the way you address other people and their ideas. The ideas of new players are just as legitimate as those of extremely experienced players. i.e. Being good/experience doesn't make you right.


Back on the topic of the deck.

The last SCG 5K only had 7 decks in the top 16 with green or white creatures, with only 2 in the top 8. Taking out the creature-less decks (Combo and Lands), that makes 14 decks in the top 16 which you want removal against, but only 7 in which Deathmark does anything. While Denver was apparently a bit more red-oriented than most events, its still seems like MD Deathmark is getting worse, as Zoo and Bant have seen a less play recently while Goblins and Merfolk continue to make up a pretty substantial percentage of the metagame.

While I can certainly see the merits of MD Deathmark, i.e. When its good its really good. I seems that there simply aren't enough decks which warrant the MD Deathmark at the moment, Not only because of the reduced number of green/white creatures running around, but also since most of the decks playing goyf/KoTR at the moment aren't especially aggro, so paying 1 extra for a smother/edicts isn't as big of a deal it is Vs Zoo/Aggro Bant. I've tried Smother and Diabolic Edict in its place. I like Smother much more as its far stringer Vs Merfolk and Goblins, as Edict will often just get their Goblin Matron/Cursecatcher when you want to hit their Lord of Atlantis/Piledriver. While Edict has the benefit of being a sac outlet for Persecutor, though I rarely find the deck lacking in that area.

[sporenfrosch1411]

Can we cut the bitching around oO
I dont get it....



@Topic
I dont think Phylactery Lich would be a good idea. He has to have a deck that evolves around him meaning u need indestructible artifacts and stuff that TheGate doesnt play. I think your better off in the BlackSuicide Thread with this ;)

[Wakkarr]

The Phylactery Lich has a few issues. First being that the most prevalent removal spell is Swords to Plowshares. Second being the necessity of playing lots of artifacts, which makes lots of cards which are bad or just OK really really good, such as Krosan Grip and Pridemage. Vault of Whispers is a bit risky as it just opens you up to wasteland too much, as well as turning Pridemage into LD and possibly a 2 for 1. Putting the counter on a Jitte is dangerous as losing a Jitte is bad times, but losing your 3 drop as well is a blowout. Darksteel Citadel is the obvious land of choice, but being colourless means your Lich is basically a 4 drop unless you have Urborg.

In Short, the Lich is a powerful card which requires a large amount of effort to make it work. Given how clustered the 3 mana spot is, I don't really see the Lich improving the deck. As you need to make too many compromises and open yourself up to too many potential blowouts.

[Lifeless]

The last SCG 5K only had 7 decks in the top 16 with green or white creatures, with only 2 in the top 8. Taking out the creature-less decks (Combo and Lands), that makes 14 decks in the top 16 which you want removal against, but only 7 in which Deathmark does anything. While Denver was apparently a bit more red-oriented than most events, its still seems like MD Deathmark is getting worse, as Zoo and Bant have seen a less play recently while Goblins and Merfolk continue to make up a pretty substantial percentage of the metagame.

While I can certainly see the merits of MD Deathmark, i.e. When its good its really good. I seems that there simply aren't enough decks which warrant the MD Deathmark at the moment, Not only because of the reduced number of green/white creatures running around, but also since most of the decks playing goyf/KoTR at the moment aren't especially aggro, so paying 1 extra for a smother/edicts isn't as big of a deal it is Vs Zoo/Aggro Bant. I've tried Smother and Diabolic Edict in its place. I like Smother much more as its far stringer Vs Merfolk and Goblins, as Edict will often just get their Goblin Matron/Cursecatcher when you want to hit their Lord of Atlantis/Piledriver. While Edict has the benefit of being a sac outlet for Persecutor, though I rarely find the deck lacking in that area.

As I mentioned before I will be looking at Vendetta for a more flexible solution to blue and red while maintaining the tempo of Deathmark. Deathmark was added in the first place as a response to the format so it's reasonable to swap it out based on your local meta, imo.


Can we cut the bitching around oO
I dont get it....



@Topic
I dont think Phylactery Lich would be a good idea. He has to have a deck that evolves around him meaning u need indestructible artifacts and stuff that TheGate doesnt play. I think your better off in the BlackSuicide Thread with this ;)

I too am exhausted with everyone's ego and hope we can move along with the thread.

I agree with you that Lich is a topic for a new thread. You have to change a good number of cards in the main to add Lich, making it a significantly different deck.

[Wakkarr]

Vendetta is powerful, but I am not sure if the tempo advantage outweighs the weakness Vs larger creatures. Obviously 1 life is a tiny amount to pay to kill a Goblin Lackey, but with Bitterblossom and Bob in the deck, taking 5+ from a Knight of the Reliquary/Goyf etc... may simply be too much. Though I haven't tested it so this is all speculation. Ghastly demise is good, though not having fetchlands removes the chance of killing a T1 Goblin Lacky, and facing a turn 2 goyf on the draw could get scary.

[pippo84]

I was thinking about the Enchantress MU. What do you do if the opponent drops Elephant Grass and can mantain it?

[sporenfrosch1411]

Your only solution is Dystopia....i think
Like versus all enchantments out there (that are white or green) :)

[Esper3k]

Just make them discard it. Chalice at one rarely comes down turn one anyway.

Generally, black decks with Extirpate do well against Aggro Loam because you tear apart their hand, then force them to sacrifice the few creatures they have while providing a good clock. The game should effectively be over before Seismic Assualt-Loam come together. In games two and three, you can just Extirpate the Loams and kill the Bobs, and then their deck is awful.

Of course, making them discard it is the optimal strategy, but you aren't going to make them discard it if they draw it, then cast it the same turn, or hit it on T1.

It just seems that given the sheer amount of 1-drop spells in the deck, a Chalice @ 1 is extremely problematic and was wondering if more experienced players of the deck had run into issues against a resolved one as well.

[MaximumC]

I was thinking about the Enchantress MU. What do you do if the opponent drops Elephant Grass and can mantain it?

See, this is one of the reasons I ran a green splash. That gives you access to the adaptable Pernicious Deed and Krosan Grip out of the sideboard.

However, I take Hollywood's experience to be that this deck really needs to be "all in," striking at the opponent before he or she gets going. For instance, he criticizes Deed as "reactive" because, I gather, it is included as a way to deal with threats like Grass AFTER they drop. Duress and friends are more "pro-active" in the sense that they attack an opponent before he or she gets her board set up.

And this is what I'm not hearing people talk about much when it comes to card choice. Other than Hollywood, does anyone have empirical data from playtesting on whether it is better to have access to reactive answers to an opponent's deck, or to go "all in" on proactive disruption and bank on being able to disrupt before the problem cards come online?

BTW, I like the idea of running Vendetta, but the life loss this deck suffers is already pretty steep. Maybe Ghastly Demise or Wretched Banquet instead?

[Aggro_zombies]

And this is what I'm not hearing people talk about much when it comes to card choice. Other than Hollywood, does anyone have empirical data from playtesting on whether it is better to have access to reactive answers to an opponent's deck, or to go "all in" on proactive disruption and bank on being able to disrupt before the problem cards come online?
Of course you have to run "reactive" answers.

I'm going to just state the obvious here and say that discard becomes better the shorter the game gets. Discard is fine in a suicide-style deck because you're looking to go all-in on a couple of threats, so you need to be able to rip out things that could stop you. However, the game should be decided in a few turns either way; either you win, or your opponent stabilizes and you lose. This deck, on the other hand, can't end games quickly. Outside of Persecutor, it can't really clock the opponent, and even with one it will take 2-3 swings to kill them plus you have to have the sacrifice effect. Furthermore, Persecutor will never come down before turn four in this deck, which means you're looking at something between turns six and seven for your kill window. In a deck using discard as its primary means of disrupting the opponent, that gives them a virtual eternity to topdeck something and stop you.

The idea that you should simply go all-in and if they topdeck something, oh well seems pretty stupid to me. There's a bunch of things in this format that you don't want to see the opponent topdeck, and there are plenty of matchups that could benefit from the sort of board control cards you get in other colors (swarm aggro decks are the biggest one in my mind). I honestly don't see the problem with splashing for reactive sideboard answers, since there are a lot of situations you can't proactive your way out of - but on the other hand, those sideboard slots don't make as much sense if those situations don't come up a lot for you.


Of course, making them discard it is the optimal strategy, but you aren't going to make them discard it if they draw it, then cast it the same turn, or hit it on T1.

It just seems that given the sheer amount of 1-drop spells in the deck, a Chalice @ 1 is extremely problematic and was wondering if more experienced players of the deck had run into issues against a resolved one as well.
Chalice is really the only thing Aggro Loam has going for it. And anyway, the deck is next to non-existent anymore, so it's not really an issue. If you're worried about losing to Chalice, splash green and run Grip.

[MaximumC]

Of course you have to run "reactive" answers.
I'm going to just state the obvious here and say that discard becomes better the shorter the game gets. Discard is fine in a suicide-style deck because you're looking to go all-in on a couple of threats, so you need to be able to rip out things that could stop you. However, the game should be decided in a few turns either way; either you win, or your opponent stabilizes and you lose. This deck, on the other hand, can't end games quickly. Outside of Persecutor, it can't really clock the opponent, and even with one it will take 2-3 swings to kill them plus you have to have the sacrifice effect. Furthermore, Persecutor will never come down before turn four in this deck, which means you're looking at something between turns six and seven for your kill window. In a deck using discard as its primary means of disrupting the opponent, that gives them a virtual eternity to topdeck something and stop you.


Well, that analysis isn't exactly right. This is not so much a sui aggro deck as a control deck. You're "all in" in the sense that you want to blast their early creatures and dismantle their opening hand quickly. Then, you take a controlling roll. That's possible because the deck runs so much disruption that it can keep drawing it as the game goes on. Bob, Blossom, Nighthawk and Persecutor are not suiblack quick clocks; they're just inevitability.

The reason Hollywood's all-black build works ok, i wager, is that once you have knocked the opponent off of their game plan, you have a window to land your inevitable threats. Once you have a Bob and a Blossom, it's not so bad if they get Counter Top online, for example. Once you have Persecutor and a few nighthawks, who cares if they start dumping big Merfolk. Your threats trump theirs if you give them enough time. The idea is to restrain the opponent long enough to get an edge, and then let that edge grow over time while they try to catch up. Put another way, this deck tries to decimate the early game and then win in the mid or late game.

For example, in my game against Merfolk last Sunday, Game 3 went to time. I ripped counters from his hand with discard and kept blasting his merfolk until I had a few nighthawks. I then ran out of disruption gas, but while he was finally sticking merfolk, I was sticking a pair of Persecutors. He ended up at -5 and lost on turn 4 of 5 because I had some gatekeepers in hand. I did not need to "catch up."

Now, just because I disagree with your analysis of this deck as "suiblack" does not mean that I disagree with the need for reactive answers; that's why I'm asking for empirical data (I know Hollywood's got it, but he sounds sorta biased to me). My reasoning is that there are some topdecks that WILL catch up the other player, like Wrath of God or Pernicious Deed, for example. And having a reactive threat might decrease your mulligans. I'd be uncomfortable rolling this deck without at least two or three pieces of proactive disruption, but I might be tempted to keep a hand with a big catch up card; for example, this would be a keeper, IMHO:

Pernicious Deed, Verdant Catacombs, Swamp, Swamp, Swamp, Nighthawk, Duress

...because if you fall behind, you can reasonably expect to run out a Deed to catch up, whereas this might not be a keeper:

Verdant Catacombs, Swamp, Swamp, Swamp, Nighthawk, Duress, Duress

...because I'd be worried that Gobbos, Merfolk, or Elves would have me dead on the board before nighthawk could matter.

[sporenfrosch1411]

There are some WhiteStaxx i have played against. Chalice @ 1 is crucible... IF they are on the play and can get it out on turn 1. If they can it resolve turn 2, its still annoying but you can go for Hymn to Tourach and your removal (innocent blood and deathmark) is useless anyway. You can still play all of your creatures, so its not THAT big of a deal....
But trust me, if they can shut off your cc1 discard, it will be a hard match.
Some play Gate to Phyrexia in their sideboard....which imo is kind of nice.... and i might swap those for the Soul Spike (its a meta choice, at my meta i havent seen any Tendrils but ive seen WhiteStaxx ;) )

[Aggro_zombies]

Well, that analysis isn't exactly right. This is not so much a sui aggro deck as a control deck.
Well, that's nice. I would hope you would disagree because this deck obviously isn't suicide, and that's not what I said.


This deck, on the other hand,
This deck can't be suicide because it doesn't have a good enough clock. What I meant was that discard is better in suicide because the opponent has less of a window of opportunity to stabilize. If you take their answers away from them, they have to have new ones in the top 1-2 cards or they're dead. Nighthawk does not provide that kind of urgency; indeed, nothing in this deck provides that kind of urgency, although Persecutor is reasonable at doing so despite being a two-card combo because you have a lot of redundancy for the other "half".

To illustrate:


For example, in my game against Merfolk last Sunday, Game 3 went to time. I ripped counters from his hand with discard and kept blasting his merfolk until I had a few nighthawks. I then ran out of disruption gas, but while he was finally sticking merfolk, I was sticking a pair of Persecutors. He ended up at -5 and lost on turn 4 of 5 because I had some gatekeepers in hand. I did not need to "catch up."

This could just have easily have been a loss for you had the Merfolk player (a) been playing a deck with removal and (b) drawn better. You could also have drawn worse and the Merfolk player would have recovered. While it worked out this time, the issue with this deck is that it has a lot of dead weight in the mid- to late-game compared to other control decks in the format: when you're in a race, you don't want to see Hymn or Duress, you want to see Nighthawk or removal. Your discard spells lose value almost exponentially the long the game goes, and the longer the game goes, the more likely the opponent will be to craft a game state that negates the "superiority" of your threats. This is a problem inherent in mono-black.

Really, this deck is more of an aggro-control deck that trades the versatility of counters for the brute force of discard.

[EssKay]

I :heart: this thread

[Peter_Rotten]

I :heart: this thread

I :heart: your temp-ban.

[MaximumC]

While it worked out this time, the issue with this deck is that it has a lot of dead weight in the mid- to late-game compared to other control decks in the format: when you're in a race, you don't want to see Hymn or Duress, you want to see Nighthawk or removal. Your discard spells lose value almost exponentially the long the game goes, and the longer the game goes, the more likely the opponent will be to craft a game state that negates the "superiority" of your threats. This is a problem inherent in mono-black.


Against a blue control player anyway, I don't know that I agree. Late game Hymn or Duress just plays another role: counterspell insurance. FOr example, I would have tied that match at time if I had not been able to clear the way for my final Gatekeeper (killing an Abysasl Specter) with discard. Are you sure that discard is less valuable in this role than it is in its early game, disruptive role?

[Michael Keller]

I've been really thinking about moving forward with Nevinyrral's Disk again. I'm not sure yet but it warrants further testing. Needles are solid against Planeswalkers, but I've been in deep thought about Counterbalance.

[Esper3k]

I don't think Aggro_Zombies is saying that discard is less valuable, but that it's less powerful here than in a Suicide deck.

With this deck, it's extremely rare that you're disrupting your opponent then dropping a fast clock on them (like a Goyf or Tombstalker) while they're still reeling and scrambling for answers.

The Gate is much more controlling and the disruption is there mostly to keep from dying / clear the way for your card advantage than it is to really throw an opponent off balance.

[Lifeless]

I've been really thinking about moving forward with Nevinyrral's Disk again. I'm not sure yet but it warrants further testing. Needles are solid against Planeswalkers, but I've been in deep thought about Counterbalance.

I have not played Counterbalance at all. Is getting a Needle into play on Top (or Foundry?) not strong enough?

[Michael Keller]

Needling the Top is an effective play and can really crush a risky start on their end by keeping a one-lander. I would definitely agree that is a strong play. Once the Top is shut down, that (somewhat) neuters the effectiveness of a Counterbalance flip. I've never really had any trouble to begin with with Counterbalance alone; it really is just the Top that becomes a nuisance.

I'm wondering if the effectiveness (or possibly lack there of) of Disk can be offset by removal or cards like Dystopia and Gate to Phyrexia.

[pippo84]

Needling the Top is an effective play and can really crush a risky start on their end by keeping a one-lander. I would definitely agree that is a strong play. Once the Top is shut down, that (somewhat) neuters the effectiveness of a Counterbalance flip. I've never really had any trouble to begin with with Counterbalance alone; it really is just the Top that becomes a nuisance.

So how do you suggest to change the sideboard?

I was thinking about Disk, but it seems really slow.. It's ok against Show & Tell, but it's not the best answer to CB or Vial.

Btw in my sideboard I'm planning:

3 Dystopia
3 Spinning Darkness
4 Extirpate

This leaves 5 open slots. Probably something like 3 Pithing Needle and 2 Tormod's Crypt.

Thoughts?

EDIT: I would also like to fit in there in some way 2 SoLS or SoFI.

[Lifeless]

My board is currently:

3 Spinning Darkness
3 Dystopia
4 (grave hate of some sort)
3 Needle
2 Soul Spike

I can say for sure that the Spinning Darkness and the Needles will not be coming out. When Needle is unexpected it produces blow outs, particularly against Vial.

If you really like equipment they can go in the Soul Spike spot I suppose.

[Michael Keller]

Well, let's look at what works and what everyone seems to find the most important choices (ATM):

Dystopia

There are no other ways this deck can hit cards like Elspeth or Survival of the Fittest once they hit play. The same goes for white "Prison" decks that feed off lock-down components such as Ghostly Prison. The deck has no way of stopping Enchantress (aside from the sacrificial removal on Argothian Enchantress and discard effects).

That is, until, this card found its way into the sideboard. This is the reason I call it the best card in the deck. Its uses are so multilateral and it (at worst) acts as "delayed removal" on an opponent's creature. It has won me rounds of big tournament Magic, and I hope people understand how critical this card is to maintain board advantage.

Pithing Needle

This is becoming more and more important as the format develops. Cards like Jace (and other Planeswalkers), Sensei's Divining Top, Mishra's Factory and or Mutavault, Aether Vial, etc. are becoming more popular. There are just too many problematic cards that once resolved can be a real pain in the neck, and this card effectively shuts down anything with an activated ability that is detrimental to winning a game. Highly recommended; I might even go so far as to test a full play-set.

Extirpate

With Vengevine in Survival variants becoming more prevalent, this (effectively) unstoppable removal spell can hit that card and seriously turn back the clock against you when you get it off. It can completely take an opponent for surprise and even act as a pseudo-discard spell. It just gets so much of a bad wrap because of how narrow its use is. However, it does completely eradicate a serious problem in one fell swoop at an extraordinarily cheap cost.

Sword of Light and Shadow; Sword of Fire and Ice

Life gain has become increasingly more important as Zoo and Burn variants are becoming more and more aggressive in the format today. Being able to recur threats and gain life is just so very good. With the other Sword (F/I), we're also able to draw cards and deal extra damage. Either way, both cards generate an important set of advantages that can and should be used for the purposes mentioned. I am debating whether to run a split on these at two and two, or just nix one all together and run a pair in the board. Equipment generally can mean the difference in a game and is (in my opinion) seriously underrated in this format.

Soul Spike

I'm debating whether or not to phase this card out of the sideboard. When it works, it is ridiculously effective. Other times, it can collect dust in the sideboard. I bring it in against Burn decks but against Zoo and the like, I really don't like losing all those cards in my hand. Considering Hymn, Duress, and Therapy reside in the main to help against Combo, I see no reason to overkill it in the sideboard. I've essentially sided these out for Equipment.

Faerie Macabre

Still a nice surprise when it pops up and you need it. The question is: Is it worth dedicating several slots in the sideboard for as "uncounterable" graveyard hate or can we just settle using Extirpate as the replacement? I'm just not sure if Faerie is worth running at this point in time. Even against decks like Ichorid and Survival, you're still getting multiple copies of the trouble card(s) out of the deck, which Faerie cannot do. However, with the Sword of Light and Shadow, recurring Faerie Macabre against those decks can be a lot of fun. I've personally begun to phase this out of the sideboard.

Spinning Darkness

This will be a staple in my sideboard for as long as Aggro continues to be a threat in the current metagame. Doesn't matter what deck you're playing against: Merfolk, Zoo, etc., it becomes so effective in those match-ups and even gains you life. I'm not sure if four is too many or three is not enough.

There are other choices people have been suggesting, but this has become the sole focus of this deck for a long time now and I think we should decide what is worth keeping and what is worth removing.

[pippo84]

Well, let's look at what works and what everyone seems to find the most important choices (ATM):

Dystopia

There are no other ways this deck can hit cards like Elspeth or Survival of the Fittest once they hit play. The same goes for white "Prison" decks that feed off lock-down components such as Ghostly Prison. The deck has no way of stopping Enchantress (aside from the sacrificial removal on Argothian Enchantress and discard effects).

That is, until, this card found its way into the sideboard. This is the reason I call it the best card in the deck. Its uses are so multilateral and it (at worst) acts as "delayed removal" on an opponent's creature. It has won me rounds of big tournament Magic, and I hope people understand how critical this card is to maintain board advantage.

Pithing Needle

This is becoming more and more important as the format develops. Cards like Jace (and other Planeswalkers), Sensei's Divining Top, Mishra's Factory and or Mutavault, Aether Vial, etc. are becoming more popular. There are just too many problematic cards that once resolved can be a real pain in the neck, and this card effectively shuts down anything with an activated ability that is detrimental to winning a game. Highly recommended; I might even go so far as to test a full play-set.

Extirpate

With Vengevine in Survival variants becoming more prevalent, this (effectively) unstoppable removal spell can hit that card and seriously turn back the clock against you when you get it off. It can completely take an opponent for surprise and even act as a pseudo-discard spell. It just gets so much of a bad wrap because of how narrow its use is. However, it does completely eradicate a serious problem in one fell swoop at an extraordinarily cheap cost.

Sword of Light and Shadow; Sword of Fire and Ice

Life gain has become increasingly more important as Zoo and Burn variants are becoming more and more aggressive in the format today. Being able to recur threats and gain life is just so very good. With the other Sword (F/I), we're also able to draw cards and deal extra damage. Either way, both cards generate an important set of advantages that can and should be used for the purposes mentioned. I am debating whether to run a split on these at two and two, or just nix one all together and run a pair in the board. Equipment generally can mean the difference in a game and is (in my opinion) seriously underrated in this format.

Soul Spike

I'm debating whether or not to phase this card out of the sideboard. When it works, it is ridiculously effective. Other times, it can collect dust in the sideboard. I bring it in against Burn decks but against Zoo and the like, I really don't like losing all those cards in my hand. Considering Hymn, Duress, and Therapy reside in the main to help against Combo, I see no reason to overkill it in the sideboard. I've essentially sided these out for Equipment.

Faerie Macabre

Still a nice surprise when it pops up and you need it. The question is: Is it worth dedicating several slots in the sideboard for as "uncounterable" graveyard hate or can we just settle using Extirpate as the replacement? I'm just not sure if Faerie is worth running at this point in time. Even against decks like Ichorid and Survival, you're still getting multiple copies of the trouble card(s) out of the deck, which Faerie cannot do. However, with the Sword of Light and Shadow, recurring Faerie Macabre against those decks can be a lot of fun. I've personally begun to phase this out of the sideboard.

Spinning Darkness

This will be a staple in my sideboard for as long as Aggro continues to be a threat in the current metagame. Doesn't matter what deck you're playing against: Merfolk, Zoo, etc., it becomes so effective in those match-ups and even gains you life. I'm not sure if four is too many or three is not enough.

There are other choices people have been suggesting, but this has become the sole focus of this deck for a long time now and I think we should decide what is worth keeping and what is worth removing.

Good post!

Interesting explenation of every card choice.

I will now write a comment (not in depth as Hollywood did) for each card mentioned, looking at my metagame though.

Dystopia This cards seems really strong. It's great against all decks running G/W and my meta is full.

Pithing Needle Stops Planeswalkers that are getting very common and Vial, Mutavault, Qasali, Top, Maze, Deed etc. Versatile.

Extirpate This card is very narrow, but can be really strong. Stops Vengevines, Loam, Reanimator targets, helps against Dredge and can remove from the game other problematic cards. It's also great to screw opponent's manabase in combination with wasteland. Useful against GY strategies and against Control.

SoFI e SoLaS Both swords are good. A nice thing against aggro and they generate some sort of advantage.

Soul Spike In my meta since the banning of MT Storm Combo has disappeared and so has Reanimator. Interesting tech, but I won't play it.

Faerie Macabre I already chose to run 4 Extirpates and since Reanimator is showing less numbers I won't play it. Anyways Dredge is becoming more popular in my meta and so I will think about adding 2 Tormod's Crypt..

Spinning Darkness Great Tech!! Great against all aggro decks. Gain life, kill a creature for 3 cards my GY? Sure!

This said and from my previous post my sideboard will probably look like:

3 Spinning Darkness
3 Dystopia
4 Extirpate
3 Pithing Needle
2 Swords of some type/Tormod's Crypt. Having a 1 Crypt and 1 Sword split seems awful to me..

Thoughts?

[AlterEgo]

May I add:

Vampire Hexmage reads "kill target planeswalker" and shuts Dredge off of bridges.

[Michael Keller]

May I add:

Vampire Hexmage reads "kill target planeswalker" and shuts Dredge off of bridges.

It definitely does. The only problem with Hexmage is that it really isn't effective enough outside of that use, as it can only stop a Planeswalker one time. The ability can also be Stifled, which doesn't help. To maximize its effectiveness, we would more than likely have to incorporate Dark Depths into the equation and it just isn't worth the effort. Doing something like that would require a major overhaul and then you would be looking at a completely different deck, one that is more susceptible to the rampant amount of hate already infesting the format. The deck tries to dodge as much hate as it possibly can and does a good job of it thus far. Hexmage in that capacity is really just a plain black creature with nothing much else to offer.

Pithing Needle on the other hand is a one-drop that is much more difficult for an opponent to deal with. Hexmage can attack, but it really serves no other purpose (generally) outside of that. The Needle is much more versatile and hits those cards that are much more problematic (as previously mentioned) without having to worry about them again.

[AlterEgo]

Well, I wasn't able to test her yet (the only time I had her against Jace she was indeed countered), but I feel comfortable just for the option to board her in. (I would NEVER suggest running Dark Depths, for obvious reasons)

But tbh, exactly the Needles' versatility is another problem - you can NEVER have enough of them, so I'm glad about a little redundancy. And if that redundancy can also carry a Jitte and attack (which btw. was a pro for you with MacFae), then fine.

Other card: who of you has tested Oblivion Stone? It IS another out against Counterbalance AND Planeswalkers AND Artifacts...
Too expensive? (I fear yes)

[sporenfrosch1411]

I think hexmage is ok as an body, because of its first strike.... but i agree, i´d rather have needle too (which i have, as a 3off in my sideboard)
The problem with Depths is imo, that you cant "fetch" for it (tutor it). Then we look @ Depths and see its legendary and provides no mana, so a 4 off would be kind of annoying....
Also you would have to include Urborg to make it even possible to have a Turn2 Marit Lage.
It just doesnt fit , i think outside of green (crop rotation) i still dont liek it :/

[pippo84]

I have to say I really like the Dark Depths + Vampire Hexmage combo, but not in this deck. To play DD you have to build a deck around that card and that can support it.

Back on topic, Vampire Hexmage is really inferior to Pithing Needle here because Needle is much more versatile. Not only it can hit Planeswalkers, but many other targets as you know.

[Esper3k]

@Extirpate: Extirpate is also really amazing against control. With all the targeted discard you have, you can even usually strip a card out of their hand with Extirpate (also hilarious to shuffle their library after they Enlightened Tutor something or have spun/popped their Top).

@Leyline of the Void: I'm surprised no one is considering this card. If you're going to dedicate 4 slots of graveyard hate to the sideboard, why not use the best graveyard hate card available? Against graveyard based decks, opening with this in your hand pretty much stops them dead until they deal with it, which you at least buy yourself plenty of time to start working on them.

@Vampire Hexmage: I think this creature is terrible in Legacy. First of all, Planeswalkers aren't nearly as prevalent in Legacy as they are in other formats like Standard. Second, even if you manage to pop something like a Jace, you're typically still behind on card advantage since they've Brainstormed and gotten a card back. Third, the 2 power, even with first strike, just doesn't stop anything truly relevant in Legacy. The key damage point in Legacy is to hit 3 damage due to all the Wild Nacatls, Kird Apes, Loam Lions, Exalted Qasali Pridemages, etc. The only really good thing it does is kill a Chalice @ 1 and as someone pointed out, anti-Dredge hate.

[sporenfrosch1411]

I actually have 4 Leyline in my sideboard :)

@Extirpate: I did not come to test it yet, i still "mindmagic" if its worth the 4 Slots....my sideboard is so stuffed allready :(
@Hexmage: Y lol, never thought of Chalice with it ^_^ kinda neat, but still not worth it imo (aka --> agree)

[Plague Sliver]

I'm doing the happy dance as I'm reading over some of the SB choices being discussed...

Dystopia - I was just chatting with a fella over the weekend and he was reminiscing about the old school effective it. Y'know, in Necro decks. It's always been an underrated card and with the lifegain this deck offers it is pure awesome.

Pithing Needle - I use 3x of this card in every SB of Team America, and it is great. Nitewolf started running Jace but I still believe in this one. Excellent investment for 1 mana, if they remove it you really lose minimal tempo.

Esper3k - I believe Hollywood stated his reasons for not running Leyline earlier in the thread? I recall the reasoning being: you don't want to excessively mulligan for it, and this deck doesn't have ritual to hard cast it when you need it. Plus it's 4 life with Confidant. Personally I would just stick to Crypts, even 3 you can draw pretty consistently.

[arebennian]

It definitely does. The only problem with Hexmage is that it really isn't effective enough outside of that use, as it can only stop a Planeswalker one time.

Hexmage + Grafted Wargear
Dark confident + Grafted Wargear
Vampire Nighthawk + Grafted Wargear
Big 'Fuck off' Demon + Grafted Wargear
Bitterblossom + Grafted Wargear = not so good but 2 tokens and Wargear kill goyf

I've mentioned it twice, I know someone else has mentioned it. Has anyone actually playtested it? I understand pridemage is everywhere but it seems worth a test.

[bakofried]

Planar Void is an option as well; I don't recall the arguments (if there were any) against it's inclusion.

[Lull]

Planar Void is an option as well; I don't recall the arguments (if there were any) against it's inclusion.
Planar Void ruins your Cabal Therapies.

[bakofried]

Argh! There's the kicker. Glad it was caught early, thanks.

[Esper3k]

Esper3k - I believe Hollywood stated his reasons for not running Leyline earlier in the thread? I recall the reasoning being: you don't want to excessively mulligan for it, and this deck doesn't have ritual to hard cast it when you need it. Plus it's 4 life with Confidant. Personally I would just stick to Crypts, even 3 you can draw pretty consistently.

Thanks - I can understand his reasoning, but I personally believe the power level of it is worth it if you're playing Black plus running 4 graveyard hate cards in the board already.

I believe most of Hollywood's previous sideboards have been running 3x graveyard hate, so I can agree with not using Leyline there (I'd only ever run it as a 4-of).

[pippo84]

I don't like the idea to mulligan into the Leyline. It can really wreck some decks but I'm not to sold on it.
And anyways I already side Extirpate because it's also useful against control.

Since I think that my SB is weak against GY strategies I will probably play 2 Tormod's Crypt (or Jailer) in the 2 available slots I have.

I would like the swords there, but as mentioned above.. :((

Opinions on the swords? They seem good with the advantages they give, but at 3 mana and 3 at equipping they are slow. It's like losing a turn to land one and another to equip..

[umbowta]

Hexmage + Grafted Wargear
Dark confident + Grafted Wargear
Vampire Nighthawk + Grafted Wargear
Big 'Fuck off' Demon + Grafted Wargear
Bitterblossom + Grafted Wargear = not so good but 2 tokens and Wargear kill goyf

I've mentioned it twice, I know someone else has mentioned it. Has anyone actually playtested it? I understand pridemage is everywhere but it seems worth a test.

I dunno. Has anyone actually playtested it? Maybe, since it's your idea, you should test it and let us know. Grafted Wargear was judged as subpar a long time ago though, so you'd better make a real good argument as to why we should consider it again.

[arebennian]

I dunno. Has anyone actually playtested it? Maybe, since it's your idea, you should test it and let us know. Grafted Wargear was judged as subpar a long time ago though, so you'd better make a real good argument as to why we should consider it again.

I don't have the deck assembled, but I take an active interest (so I can't playtest).
Do a search for grafted wargear through this thread. It is suggested a few times, but none of the 'experts' ever acknowledge the suggestion as good/bad or provide reasons as to why it doesn't have a place.

[Aggro_zombies]

I don't have the deck assembled, but I take an active interest (so I can't playtest).
Do a search for grafted wargear through this thread. It is suggested a few times, but none of the 'experts' ever acknowledge the suggestion as good/bad or provide reasons as to why it doesn't have a place.
Generally, if someone doesn't acknowledge a suggestion that's been made multiple times, it's because it isn't good.

You're paying three mana total to do something infinitely less relevant than if you paid one more mana to equip Jitte. Hell, for the same CMC but two more equip cost, you can get both SoFI and SoLS, both of which are miles better in terms of the value they provide. Also, allowing the opponent to 2-for-1 you with Grip doesn't seem like the best idea ever.

[pippo84]

What do you need Grafted Wargear for? Just as another outlet to sac Persecutor? Seems quite expensive and limited just to do that.

It doesn't provide any other advantages, Jitte, SoFI and SoLaS are much better. Would you pay 3 mana to give +3/2 to a creature you control? I won't..

[Ezmerandi]

Thanks Hollywood for your in-depth summary of the sideboard discussion!
This is the key discussion that I believe will make or break the deck in terms of competitive edge.

One thing I noticed in the previous SB discussion is that we aren't so concerned with the combo/control (TES, Landstill). But, again, this is all dependent on your local meta. But so far:

The Top 4 on the Sideboard list: (in no particular order)
Spinning Darkness: AGGRO
Pithing Needle: Aggro-Control (i.e. vial/survival/equipment) & Control
Dystopia: Aggro-Control (e.g. DNT), Anything with goyf and Elspeth
Extirpate: GY-hate, Control

I run 3-of of everything in the above list, which leaves 3 slots, which many people have relegated to:
1) more GY hate (which is often necessary)
2) Equipment (swords)

What I am driving at is this: what are some good cards that can improve the way this deck combats control/combo? Because we have cards that deal with the aggro->aggro-control side of things, but not nearly enough on the control/combo side of the spectrum. Is this purposeful? Or are we laboring under the assumption that most of the meta is more aggro-driven now? The reason I ask is that my meta is more control heavy, so I entreat you all to contribute ideas to fill in those ever precious 3 slots for the Gate player in a control meta!

Also, what I haven't seen on the forums that often is what people take out when siding. I feel like that conversation should be started again.
Usually it's obvious when you want to take out innocent blood or duress, but sometimes I feel the need to take out creatures, which in a 16-creature deck seems to me like a bad idea. But I really don't want to take out Jitts, Bitterblossoms.

If I need to side-out 6 cards, lets say against vial goblins

-4 duress
-1 Cabal
-???

+ 3 Spinning Darkness
+3 Needle

Obviously, I'm not very experienced in sideboarding, so if we could see more strategies for siding, to get the juices flowing.
For example, when siding sacrificial effects like (innocent blood against a creature-less deck) how many is too many? How many sac effects should one keep to maintain critical mass for abyssal persecutor? When is it ok to take out a jitte or a bitterblossom?

[Michael Keller]

I'm currently updating the opening post with a more in-depth look at specific match-ups, boarding strategies, and a scale of favorability as it pertains to each of those match-ups.

[Ezmerandi]

Thanks Hollywood for the quick response! I look forward in seeing your analysis.


I don't have the deck assembled, but I take an active interest (so I can't playtest).

Well, how do you think most of us playtest? It's called MagicWorkstation. It's pretty convenient and, more importantly, it's free! Just download it. If you have a mac, you might have to run a parallel program or install bootcamp; if not, it should just work.

Just for general knowledge, I run Hollywood's list except:
-1 jitte +SoLS (I love the 11 point swing with Nighthawk [4 damage + gain in 7 life]; also it reduces the redundancy slightly of the almighty-legendary Jitte) Note* I do believe that Jitte is the better equipment (more versatile) and I have tested it both ways. This is just a personal choice. :D
-3 Deathmark + 3 Smother (I feel like Deathmark, as Hollywood proved with his run at the Jupiter Competition, is badass, but I feel in a more diverse meta having an instant, essentially-all-round kill spell is invaluable. Depending on meta, this could definitely change back to Deathmark.

Here is one matchup that I would like to contribute: VIAL GOBLINS
Lackey is always scary, but innocent blood usually takes care of that.
Bitterblossom really shines in this matchup as long you stabilize. Jitte: Nuff said. Problem cards: a resurgence of Goblin Sharpshooter, Ringleader, Matron, Goblin Chieftan. Here is another instance where smother shines: you really need to have targeted removal against lord-like effects. Also, Stingscourger is particularly problematic.
Piledrivers have never been a problem since they don't have trample.
+3 Spinning Darkness
+X Extirpate? Kill then proceed to removal all Chieftans/Ringleaders? Could really slow them down. Not too sure about this conditional card vs aggro. =T
+3 Pithing Needle Backbreaking since they usually have no way of getting rid of it (assuming they don't run green). I would almost try to mulligan into it, though you run into the risk of having no answer to 1st turn lackey.

I feel that this MU is 50/50. The strategy is to DISRUPT as much as possible rather than try to lay down threats in the early game: innocent blood, hymn, smother/cabal, gatekeeper. A goblin player that has no cards in hand is a crippled player (providing they have no swarm already). Hymn really shines here because they don't run that many lands because of vial.
But while we can definitely hold our own with a good draw (drawing dark confidants instead of removal can really let the goblin player go off =T), I feel that a lot of the times if the player top decks a ringleader and then proceeds to plop down 3 more goblins is usually gg unless we get a jitte on a nighthawk.

Sorry Hollywood if I stole your thunder, but I'm still interested to see your analysis for this matchup.

I echo your sentiment about Nev's Disk as a possible side-board card. Against control, I usually can needle their Top but then they plop a shackles, which is a HUGE problem. Has anybody considered powderkeg? Mass tokens, all pesky 1 mana artifacts, Survival if need to be, though I do see it being too slow, but since the Gate is more controlish, can we afford it?

[Esper3k]

Just to note - Powder Keg won't hit Survival (it only blows up Artifacts and Creatures).

[Ezmerandi]

Thank you for catching that. I guess dystopia remains our sole way of getting rid of troublesome enchantments on the battlefield.

[sporenfrosch1411]

I recently ran into Death and Taxes and, believe it or not, this matchup was somewhat hard. He had a recursion engine with Sword of Light and Shadow and if i would let him sacrifice a creature, it would be the Stoneforge Mystic which he would return a turn after, just to play it and tutor again :/
I boarded in Dystopia Game2, which helped a lot but got beaten down by a Mishra´s Factory that he equipped (again and again) whith Sword of Light and Shadow.
Essence of this: Sword of Light and Shadow can be a huge problem IF your opponent can play around all the removal you have (e.g. with Manlands :( )
I start to think whether i hop on the "Smother" train too - that could have got ridden of manlands



BTW:
Got my 2 Boxes of "From the Vault: Relics" just yesterday.....man ..... theese boxes are THE shit :D

[Ezmerandi]

I recently ran into Death and Taxes and, believe it or not, this matchup was somewhat hard. He had a recursion engine with Sword of Light and Shadow and if i would let him sacrifice a creature, it would be the Stoneforge Mystic which he would return a turn after, just to play it and tutor again :/
I boarded in Dystopia Game2, which helped a lot but got beaten down by a Mishra´s Factory that he equipped (again and again) whith Sword of Light and Shadow.
Essence of this: Sword of Light and Shadow can be a huge problem IF your opponent can play around all the removal you have (e.g. with Manlands :( )
I start to think whether i hop on the "Smother" train too - that could have got ridden of manlands

I know what you mean about the sword of light and shadow. I guess it's just one of the hazards of running a single color. I also played DNT on multiple occasions. While not the best match-up in the world (especially when they have first turn vial and second turn rishadan port), I could hang on by active removal and discard. My sideboard strategy was: +3 dystopia, + 3 Pithing Needle, -1 innocent blood, - 1 duress, -1 cabal therapy, and three other cards that I don't really remember. I think it's extremely difficult to know which cards to take out because the deck is so tight, and this is part of the reason I am really looking forward to Hollywood's MU analysis in addition to other people's input. Second game went alright until the DNT player powered out 3 flyers (flickerwisp and avenger), then I topdecked a dystopia to subsequently win the game. Pithing needle can shut down manlands, vial, karakas, jitte, sols--the list goes on and on against DNT. I agree that smother is pretty versatile in a more diverse/unknown meta (ie MWS). But again, I often find saving 2 mana for a possible smother slightly precarious, because it impedes your play on your turn.

[Top Deck]

What do you need Grafted Wargear for? Just as another outlet to sac Persecutor? Seems quite expensive and limited just to do that.

It doesn't provide any other advantages, Jitte, SoFI and SoLaS are much better. Would you pay 3 mana to give +3/2 to a creature you control? I won't..

Not sure if you noticed but it is 0 to equip.

[Aggro_zombies]

Not sure if you noticed but it is 0 to equip.
Yes, but it costs :3: to actually get the card into play, and then you can't move it around between your creatures without having to kill them.

[falln]

Ok so this is the list I personally run and I feel I could use some solid opinions, I'm trying to splash white for vindicates and swords. The reason is they are both ways i can remove Abyssal Persecutor or other dangerous things. The reason for the rather large amount of discard is my meta is made of alot of combo unfortunately and alot permission, and I find the best way to deal with both are increased amounts of discard.

Creatures 18
4 Abyssal Persecutor
4 Dark Confidant
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Vampire Nighthawk
2 Stoneforge Mystic

Spells 19
4 Swords to plowshares
4 Vindicate
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Cabal Therapy

Artifacts 3
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 sword of light and shadow

Lands 20
4 Scrubland
4 Swamp
4 Tainted Field
3 Wasteland
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Polluted Delta
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

[sporenfrosch1411]

I played around with a white splash too..... imo it isnt TheGate anymore then.

But ok:
Why no Bitterblossom? Its an awesome card that also is defining TheGate in someway, by winning control matchups easily
Why Urborg? Why not just more black basics and fetchies?
Why Tainted Field? (you have 6 cards that need one white mana each, the 4 Scrubland + 2 Basic Plains + 6 to 8 Fetchies should do)
Why 2 Jitte+1 SoLaS instead of 1SoLaS+1SoFaI +1Jitte ? Adding the SoFaI adds a huge basis of tooling
Why no Marsh Flats? (and also: Why no Basic Plains as a 2-off backup) ?
With 4 Swords to Plowshares, 4 Gatekeeper and 4 Vindicate....WHY inquisition over Duress?!

I dont like your list .... the way it is at the moment

[pippo84]

Not sure if you noticed but it is 0 to equip.

Well, that's exactly why I wrote :3: mana.. The cost to play it.

As for the list with the white splash: I understand and see why you would like a splash, to have answers to everything. It's a good thought, but I have to say that the deck you posted isn't "The Gate" any more.
Blossom is a crucial slot for this deck.

[sporenfrosch1411]

Back from some testing, here are my thoughts:


After a countless number of games, i am totally convinced by Deathmark now too. I had smother in for some days - i think 2 mana is way too much. Its a very important factor to have a removal for 1 (aside from innocent blood). I might test out vendetta, though i think the loss of life is too crucial.
Also, i have chosen to play Jitte, Jitte, Sword of Fire and Ice now. I think 3 is the right number of equippment and the sword (instead of jitte 3) gives you some variety. It might seem random as a one off, but i prefer it over a third jitte (mainly because jitte is legendary). Sword on Nighthawk - many opponents conceded to this ;)
Hymn to tourach is something, im still freaking unsure about whether to play 3 or 4. On one hand, it seems important to me, to have a Hymn early in the game. On the other hand, its annyoing to draw one on lets say, turn 4...many times he either has no hand by then (aggro decks) or you are in other trouble (lets say a jace, chalice or something else). The question is if i put a third bitterblossom or a fourth Hymn in.... im really unsure about this.
Sword of Light and Shadow still is annoying like hell. I had an opponent playing something of a mix between Death and Taxes and WhiteWeenie, the jist is that he had Kor Duelist with Sword of Light and Shadow on it....damn....is it cruel :D
G2 , with Dystopia in, it was an ok match, but preboard he raped me hard. I still have the feeling, that TheGate has problems with fast aggro decks and burn stuff....maybe im playing kinda wrong....but i find theese matchups to be very hard :(

[Wakkarr]

I played around with a white splash too..... imo it isnt TheGate anymore then.

But ok:
Why no Bitterblossom? Its an awesome card that also is defining TheGate in someway, by winning control matchups easily
Why Urborg? Why not just more black basics and fetchies?
Why Tainted Field? (you have 6 cards that need one white mana each, the 4 Scrubland + 2 Basic Plains + 6 to 8 Fetchies should do)
Why 2 Jitte+1 SoLaS instead of 1SoLaS+1SoFaI +1Jitte ? Adding the SoFaI adds a huge basis of tooling
Why no Marsh Flats? (and also: Why no Basic Plains as a 2-off backup) ?
With 4 Swords to Plowshares, 4 Gatekeeper and 4 Vindicate....WHY inquisition over Duress?!

I don't like your list .... the way it is at the moment

Tainted Field is a bit iffy. While it will often act as an unfetchable Scrubland 5-8, leaving yourself open to wasteland/sinkhole/vindicate on a Scrubland, shutting down two lands (until you find another swamp), probably outweighs the positives.

I dont understand your last point. Swords to Plowshares is the best removal in the format. Vindicate is probably second best, as it deals with Jace and other permanents and can Stone Rain them if they are tight on mana. Gatekeeper is in every list so I dont know what you are trying to get at.

Inquisition Vs Duress isn't a clear cut decision. They both have very clear positives and negatives and neither can be said to be clearly better than the other. i.e. You want Inquisition Vs aggro decks, but hitting FoW/Jace may be more relevant Vs control.

Urborg lets wasteland tap for black, which makes a lot of bad hands keepable. eg: 2 Wasteland, 1 Urborg can make BB on turn 2 for a Hymn and BBB for a Gatekeeper.

If you aren't playing any basic plains then Marsh Flats is just another black fetch. But i agree the deck probably wants at least 1 plains, which then makes Marsh Flats the correct choice.

[falln]

I played around with a white splash too..... imo it isnt TheGate anymore then.

But ok:
Why no Bitterblossom? Its an awesome card that also is defining TheGate in someway, by winning control matchups easily
Why Urborg? Why not just more black basics and fetchies?
Why Tainted Field? (you have 6 cards that need one white mana each, the 4 Scrubland + 2 Basic Plains + 6 to 8 Fetchies should do)
Why 2 Jitte+1 SoLaS instead of 1SoLaS+1SoFaI +1Jitte ? Adding the SoFaI adds a huge basis of tooling
Why no Marsh Flats? (and also: Why no Basic Plains as a 2-off backup) ?
With 4 Swords to Plowshares, 4 Gatekeeper and 4 Vindicate....WHY inquisition over Duress?!

I dont like your list .... the way it is at the moment


Honestly, I'm not running bitterblossom simply because i feel like trying to use stoneforge mystic
Urborg is there so that i can tap non basics for black should I not need to use them right away
the reason I'm running the equipment I am is because I very much so value the utility aspect of jitte, its not to say I'm unwilling to test other equipment
No marshflats because no basic plains, I do own them and will add them if I add plains, which I probably should
I understand that with alot of removal it seems kinda silly to use inquisition over duress but I've just found I've been happier to make them discarding there tarmogoyfs etc if they have them.

I hope that explains some of my reasons.. The land set up is something I know I have to work on so no arguments there.

[Michael Keller]

Updated the opening post with some insight on detailed match analysis and side-boarding strategies.

The sideboard is always in flux so I didn't give any specifics as to what you should and shouldn't exactly board in and out versus a specific archetype, but rather an idea what could work well in given circumstances.

[Esper3k]

Just curious - no matchup analysis for Zoo?

[Michael Keller]

Just curious - no matchup analysis for Zoo?

Yeah, I noticed that; I'll have it up by tonight. I must have forgot to include that from my drafts. Apologies.

[Osmin]

My headache while sideboarding: side-out or not side-out Dark Confidant for Spinning Darkness. I usually do this against Zoo, because they are very fast and we don't want additional life loss. But against Merfolk... I don't really know.

[worsel]

What do we do about Iona? Has anyone considered Diabolic Edict?

[Osmin]

What do we do about Iona? Has anyone considered Diabolic Edict?

How can Edict help? You won't be able even cast it. Your friend is gravehate.

[sporenfrosch1411]

?!
What would Edict do, that Innocent Blood (or in the case of Iona) Deathmark wouldnt do :D :D?

I think your missing the point, that it will be "black", what your opponent would name as the color you cant play spells anymore of.
Ehm, well......if you let him resolve Iona....i think you pretty lost. But hey, thats what gravehate is for -.-

[eq.firemind]

My headache while sideboarding: side-out or not side-out Dark Confidant for Spinning Darkness. I usually do this against Zoo, because they are very fast and we don't want additional life loss. But against Merfolk... I don't really know.
@ Dark Confidant + Spinning Darkness in Merfolk MU:
2 scenarios:
1) Bad one: you flipped Darkness with Bob and killed a fish, i.e.
:0:: destroy target merfolk, lose 3 life.
2) Nice one: you drew Darkness and obv. killed a fish. Now it's
:0:: destroy target merfolk, gain 3 life.
Even the bad one is actually quite good (check Snuff Out) and it's only 4 cards of your 50 left in library (assuming you landed turn 2 Bob on draw and there's no Darkness in your hand).
So -3 Deathmark, +3 Spinning Darkness is the first thing I do in game 2 vs Merfolks.
Bob carries Jitte. Merfolks have no removal to deal with him and no reach to capitalize on Bob's life loss.
You only need to deal with creatures, i.e. draw enough removal in appropriate time. And Bob helps you alot.

[pippo84]

Tried a few matches against Loam, Merfolk and Goblins.

Loam and Merfolk are quite easy to beat in my opinion, but Goblins is just terrible! Really, 5-1 in Goblins favour. Well, possibly 4-2 because Goblins had an empty hand and topdecked the only card that would let them win. Anyways a tought MU.

And I didn't think Merfolk were a piece of cake.

[Khurtz]

My solution to Iona, when I actually considered it a threat, was Executioner's Capsule since you could play it down turn 1 and let it sit on the board until Iona resolved after which it could be cracked to take her out. Also could be boarded in against Merfolk and possibly Zoo in a pinch. As I don't consider Iona to be much of a threat anymore though (not seeing it much in my meta and Macabre will prolly do the trick) I don't run capsule in the board anymore since there are better options for creature removal, IE Deathmark, Spinning Darkness, Smother, Vendetta.

[worsel]

Sorry everyone... I was under the impression that when Iona comes into play, with it's ability on the stack, you could cast an instant (like Diabolic edict).

I just read Iona's rulings, and now understand that you cannot respond to her being played because the colour is chosen as she enters play and is not an ability that goes on the stack.

My mistake. But thank you to everyone who explained this ruling in detail to me, instead of calling me stupid... or lost.

[Michael Keller]

Sorry everyone... I was under the impression that when Iona comes into play, with it's ability on the stack, you could cast an instant (like Diabolic edict).

I just read Iona's rulings, and now understand that you cannot respond to her being played because the colour is chosen as she enters play and is not an ability that goes on the stack.

My mistake. But thank you to everyone who explained this ruling in detail to me, instead of calling me stupid... or lost.

No problem. This was one of the reasons Faerie Macabre was run main build over the sideboard - when Reanimator was more relevant.

[Ezmerandi]

I am finally starting to see, after countless matchups, that the playstyle of the Gate is not like a control deck with discard instead counters. I realize now that the Gate has more range than that: it can be aggro when it needs to, it also necessitates a certain amount of subtlety when playing difficult matchups, which is part of the reason why I love playing the Gate so much. Many people say that monoblack is so straightforward, but I'm finally beginning to see the minute subtleties that can really differentiate a mediocre player and a great player. We might not have instants (MD, depending on your build), but it feels to me more like an epic chess game. We are making calculated moves on our turn and responding to our opponent with quality two-for-ones along with our experience and knowledge of the format.

That's just my two cents....

About the deck in general. I really like the 2 SOLS in one of the sideboard options. I often times feel like the gate in certain matchups could really benefit from a faster clock, a clock that also happens to give major card advantage. I am running a SOLS and SOFI in the sb to bring in in matchups where the opponent doesn't have a way of removing our threats (i.e. merfolk and MAYBE goblins).

Also, zoo matchup? I'm anxiously awaiting the post :D

[sporenfrosch1411]

In general, i have trouble with boarding...so how about i present what i´d board versus what, and you rant about it, can that be done ?

Here is my Sideboard:
3 Dystopia
3 Spinning Darkness
3 Pithing Needle
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Hymn to Tourach

Here is what i would board in the following order: out <-> in VERSUS matchup
3 Deathmark <-> 3 Spinning Darkness VERSUS Aggro (non green/white) Decks, like Goblins and Merfolk
1 Hymn to Tourach, 1 Cabal Therapy, 1 Duress <-> 3 Pithing Needle VERSUS Vialgoblins, Merfolk, Jace, Death and Taxes
3 Deathmark <-> 3 Dystopia VERSUS Enchantress/ Solitary Confinement
3 Deathmark, 1 Hymn to Tourach <-> 4 Leyline of the Void VERSUS Reanimator, Dredge
1 Gatekeeper of Malakir, 1 Innocent Blood <-> 1 Hymn to Tourach,1 Sword of Light and Shadow VERSUS random u/w control builds and Landstill-archetypes
4 Dark Confidant <-> 3 Spinning Darkness, 1 Sword of Light/Shadow VERSUS Zoo





PS:
Here is my decklist for reference on boarding (its pretty much the same as Hollywood´s list, because after so many playtestings and that tournament i played, i just have to agree on almost all of his choices.So i´ll just say "Good work, Hollywood" again)

// Lands
18 [ZEN] Swamp (1a)
3 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [WWK] Abyssal Persecutor
4 [ZEN] Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 [ZEN] Vampire Nighthawk

// Spells
3 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (3)
3 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [OD] Innocent Blood
3 [MOR] Bitterblossom
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [ARE] Duress
1 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
3 [CS] Deathmark

[Michael Keller]

Updated with Zoo included.

[largebrandon]

Here is my take on the deck:


Creatures 19
4 Abyssal Persecutor
4 Dark Confidant
4 Plague Spitter
4 Vampire Nighthawk
3 Stoneforge Mystic

Spells 16
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Innocent Blood
2 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughseize
4 Cabal Therapy

Artifacts 4
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Basilisk Collar

Lands 21
4 Scrubland
8 Swamp
1 Plains
3 Wasteland
4 Marsh Flats
1 Polluted Delta


The biggest change is my swapping out Gatekeeper for Plague Spitter. I remember this buy being great against merfolk back in Masques/Invasion Standard. In this deck, he still does that quite well with a few extra added friends to be more powerful! The best way to utilise him is putting a Basilisk Collar on him, making him a board Sweeper, whilst gaining you a bunch of life. If you cannot wait for your next upkeep, just equip and then sacrifice him to Therapy or Innocent Blood. This little trick will kill nearly everything on the board, including all merfolk, Emrakul, Goyf, goblins, etc. Unfortunately, it doesn't kill Pro, but if that's the case, we have innocent blood and SBed Gatekeepers for that.

It's my little take of it. I haven't done too much testing, but I do like Spitter in place of Gatekeeper. Both kill creatures, both effectively costs 3 (spitter only takes one black, making mana better), both swing for 2, but spitter has the potential to kill more creatures and can deal more damage to your opponent.

[Ezmerandi]

The biggest change is my swapping out Gatekeeper for Plague Spitter. I remember this buy being great against merfolk back in Masques/Invasion Standard. In this deck, he still does that quite well with a few extra added friends to be more powerful! The best way to utilise him is putting a Basilisk Collar on him, making him a board Sweeper, whilst gaining you a bunch of life.

Hmm, this is an interesting combo. But again, as has been mentioned many times before, splashing white for swords and stoneforge feels a lot like deadguy ale. Is losing invulnerability against wasteland really worth it I wonder? While stoneforge is kick-ass (instant card advantage if resolved) and swords is simply the best removal spell in the game, I feel that a loss in the stability of our mana base is the one thing that the Gate cannot endure. Besides that however, I think it's a solid list, though I still remain unconvinced about Plague Spitter. It has no synergy with confidant, which is essential in the deck, and though I do like the idea of a Plague-Collar combo, I think it's more like a kool trick than something that would work every time. Gatekeeper IS after-all the namesake of the deck. Would the deck be called "the Spitter"?? :wink: The thing is Gatekeeper works wonder in isolation. The opponent drops a baneslayer? What do you do next? Assuming you have the spitter out, you will have to somehow get stoneforge -> collar -> play the collar -> equip -> then find a way to sac it before you die from a big ass creature. It works well when you have the pieces, but I don't see that happening regularly on a consistent basis. Might work well in the sideboard, given that your meta is full of aggro. In other words, Gatekeeper-more efficient; Spitter - has potentially huge potential for massive wipes, but the fact that it is a two-three card combo negates it as a viable play. Also with the prevalence of removal: equip collar --> in response Swords to Plowshares. Also, from my experience life is extremely important for the gate AND seeing how you run fetches AND thoughtseizes, your life is going plummet especially since you already have bob.

What I thought would be better:
-4 Thoughtseizes +4 duress (you run SOO much removal that getting that creature is not worth the life)
-4 Spitter +4 Gatekeeper (see above; but I can see how spitter would work with your vulnerable mana base =T)
-1 cabal therapy +1 hymn to tourach: tourach is the bomb; cabal therapy if you miss is loss in card advantage (at least at first)
-1 Collar + 1 Jitte; since you don't have spitters, then jittes are way better; odds are that your opponent has it too so you can never have too many jittes. (I do like the two swords though for tooling)


Here is what i would board in the following order: out <-> in VERSUS matchup
3 Deathmark <-> 3 Spinning Darkness VERSUS Aggro (non green/white) Decks, like Goblins and Merfolk
1 Hymn to Tourach, 1 Cabal Therapy, 1 Duress <-> 3 Pithing Needle VERSUS Vialgoblins, Merfolk, Jace, Death and Taxes
3 Deathmark <-> 3 Dystopia VERSUS Enchantress/ Solitary Confinement
3 Deathmark, 1 Hymn to Tourach <-> 4 Leyline of the Void VERSUS Reanimator, Dredge
1 Gatekeeper of Malakir, 1 Innocent Blood <-> 1 Hymn to Tourach,1 Sword of Light and Shadow VERSUS random u/w control builds and Landstill-archetypes
4 Dark Confidant <-> 3 Spinning Darkness, 1 Sword of Light/Shadow VERSUS Zoo

I generally agree, though I would never take out too many dark confidants versus any matchup. We need the card advantage. I would: -2 duress - 1 cabal -1 bitterblossom for +3 spinning darkness +1 sword.

Also, you never see goblin decks by themselves anymore right? I always see a vial from them....

[Osmin]

4 Dark Confidant
4 Plague Spitter



Great synergy!


The thing is Gatekeeper works wonder in isolation. The opponent drops a baneslayer? What do you do next? Assuming you have the spitter out, you will have to somehow get stoneforge -> collar -> play the collar -> equip -> then find a way to sac it before you die from a big ass creature.
You can wait for your next upkeep.
BTW spitter+collar+SoLS mean that you and your opponent will never have creatures except spitter itself. Until it gets sworded of course. And to play Progenitus opp must play both a creature and Natural Order in one turn.

[Darkenslight]

Brandon, your deck should be titled Left4Dead. :D
Here is my take on the deck:


Creatures 19
4 Abyssal Persecutor - Tank
4 Dark Confidant - Smoker
4 Plague Spitter - Spitter
4 Vampire Nighthawk - Boomer
3 Stoneforge Mystic - Hunter

Spells 16
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Innocent Blood
2 Hymn to Tourach - Jockey
4 Thoughseize
4 Cabal Therapy

Artifacts 4 -
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Basilisk Collar

Lands 21
4 Scrubland
8 Swamp
1 Plains
3 Wasteland
4 Marsh Flats
1 Polluted Delta


I like the deck idea, but I'm not sure it's viable, because of the lack of acceleration.

[pippo84]

Here is my take on the deck:


Creatures 19
4 Abyssal Persecutor
4 Dark Confidant
4 Plague Spitter
4 Vampire Nighthawk
3 Stoneforge Mystic

Spells 16
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Innocent Blood
2 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughseize
4 Cabal Therapy

Artifacts 4
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Basilisk Collar

Lands 21
4 Scrubland
8 Swamp
1 Plains
3 Wasteland
4 Marsh Flats
1 Polluted Delta


The biggest change is my swapping out Gatekeeper for Plague Spitter. I remember this buy being great against merfolk back in Masques/Invasion Standard. In this deck, he still does that quite well with a few extra added friends to be more powerful! The best way to utilise him is putting a Basilisk Collar on him, making him a board Sweeper, whilst gaining you a bunch of life. If you cannot wait for your next upkeep, just equip and then sacrifice him to Therapy or Innocent Blood. This little trick will kill nearly everything on the board, including all merfolk, Emrakul, Goyf, goblins, etc. Unfortunately, it doesn't kill Pro, but if that's the case, we have innocent blood and SBed Gatekeepers for that.

It's my little take of it. I haven't done too much testing, but I do like Spitter in place of Gatekeeper. Both kill creatures, both effectively costs 3 (spitter only takes one black, making mana better), both swing for 2, but spitter has the potential to kill more creatures and can deal more damage to your opponent.

Wow!! The idea of the 'Spitter is just so fun!!! I'm not sure if itcould work because it utilizes quite a few slots to get on board, but it's so funny! I'll try it! Btw doen't spitter die to itself since of the deathtouch given by the collar?
If so SoLaS should be added...

In my testing i didn't feel the urge to splash the deck another color, the deck is fine as it is! Mmmm... Maybe -1 Wasteland + 1 Swamp though.. Sometimes I get screwed.. :frown:

[sporenfrosch1411]

I really dislike the idea of the "Spitter+Collar" combo. It hits your own creatures just as hard, as it hits you opponent´s creatures - which is in my opinion a huge disadvantage, regarding the amount of creatures you play. Sure the lifegain and boardsweeping is nice, but without Sword of Light and Shadow, it is a blastout to clean the board including your own creatures for one time. I dont see why this would be better than let´s say a Damnation (which also is easier to play, than this combo is to set up).
Just think about it:
You need the Spitter, which is a 4-off, so you should be able to draw him.
You need the Basilisk Collar, which is a one off, but can be tutored via Stoneforge Mystic, just to get it running once, and the Sword of Light and Shadow, which is a one off too and also needs to be tutored for, to constantly run it.
In total that makes for 3 + 2 + 3 mana, plus the equip cost of 1 +2 (which is to be paid every round) plus the fact that you need to draw a Spitter and any combination of Stoneforge Mystic and the equippments plus you need all that to hit the board.
I think this is way too hard to be set up in a game where your opponent will in ANY way be able to meddle around with your plan. It does look fun on paper and is somewhat of a new idea, but i dont think it fits in here.

[pippo84]

I really dislike the idea of the "Spitter+Collar" combo. It hits your own creatures just as hard, as it hits you opponent´s creatures - which is in my opinion a huge disadvantage, regarding the amount of creatures you play. Sure the lifegain and boardsweeping is nice, but without Sword of Light and Shadow, it is a blastout to clean the board including your own creatures for one time. I dont see why this would be better than let´s say a Damnation (which also is easier to play, than this combo is to set up).
Just think about it:
You need the Spitter, which is a 4-off, so you should be able to draw him.
You need the Basilisk Collar, which is a one off, but can be tutored via Stoneforge Mystic, just to get it running once, and the Sword of Light and Shadow, which is a one off too and also needs to be tutored for, to constantly run it.
In total that makes for 3 + 2 + 3 mana, plus the equip cost of 1 +2 (which is to be paid every round) plus the fact that you need to draw a Spitter and any combination of Stoneforge Mystic and the equippments plus you need all that to hit the board.
I think this is way too hard to be set up in a game where your opponent will in ANY way be able to meddle around with your plan. It does look fun on paper and is somewhat of a new idea, but i dont think it fits in here.

When I said that I was going to test it (and I will :laugh: ) I meant as a deck for fun. I'm not changing a single card in here atm. Except for those 2 slots I still have free in the SB..

[DarthVicious]

BTW spitter+collar+SoLS mean that you and your opponent will never have creatures except spitter itself. Until it gets sworded of course. And to play Progenitus opp must play both a creature and Natural Order in one turn.

Pro-white from the sword prevents it from getting hit by StP/Path. Pro-black prevents it from dying to its own deathtouch. Just thought I'd mention that.

It's also a 4/4 lifelink deathtouch pro-white pro-black plus the healing salve and raise dead effects when it gets through. Seems pretty good on paper, especially when it's (theoretically) the only creature on the board. I know it's been said before, but good luck getting all three of them into play.

I've also been testing Phylactery Lich. I know I may be the only one, I just thought I'd mention my results. As far as artifacts, I have 4 MD Pithing Needle, 4 MD Lightning Greaves, and 3 MD Sword of Light and Shadow. Having this many artifacts ensures you draw just enough to play the Lich without making you warp your strategy. Then again, my strategy may be slightly different than other builds. All the equipment can be used to protect whatever creature it is on from the most common removal there is, and the Lich will ultimately win ground stalls if my fliers get removed. 4 Persecutor, 4 Nighthawk, 3 Bitterblossom is enough I think, although I may include Tombstalker somewhere. Space is tight. Innocent Blood and Gatekeeper go a long way, and Blossom is just awesome. I've had games where my opponent doesn't know whether to remove the Greaves and keep my Lich off the table, or remove the Blossom to stem the bleeding. Getting a double Blossom draw against a lone Pridemage made me giggle. Made them scoop. Turn 2 Greaves -> Turn 3 Lich kicks ass.

On that note, Greaves kicks ass. People seeing it fear my creature spells. It's almost like Monoblack Fires at some times.

I like to call it aggressively reactive.

[pippo84]

Has anyone tested the Dredge MU? I still haven't but from how both decks play I think it's in their favour and not a 55/45 as Hollywood said.

@Hollywood: can you give some more details of your testings against this MU?

[sporenfrosch1411]

So, i played again at my local Legacy Tournament.

I placed 7th out of 16 (i think it was 16) - prizes were handed out to the Top5, so i had to go home empty handed.
Let me give you a quick report/analysis how the tournament went for me:


Opponent 1 - Canadian Threshold (UGR)
There is not much to say about this match. I am his worst nightmare :)
His mana-denial-plan is useless against me, and the low creature count of 8, that he plays, makes it an easy 2-0 for me. I did not even need to board versus him. 2-0 for me.

Opponent 2 - 2 Land Belcher
Well, in the first game he can not manage to pull his combo off. Not because i disrupt him, but because he just has somewhat of a terrible draw.
Game 2 he manages to go into his combo on the first turn, i also need to mention that he could play first cause he lost game 1. Nothing i could have done here, he pulls 10 Goblin Tokens from Empty the Warrens and knocks me out in 2 turns.
Game 3 i mulligan down a bit, but he still eats me alive. Lets say, i should have mulligan´d down to 5 since you are just in desperate need of discard Turn 1. Kind of my mistake. 1-2 for me.

Opponent 3 - Green Combo (Rogue)
This was my highlight of the tournament. My opponent played a mono-green rogue deck that was innovative and fun to play against. Let me give you a quick overview of what his deck was trying to do:
He has those fat Eldrazi creatures - Emrakul, Ulamog and Kozilek. He has some interesting cards like Saproling Cluster, Micotic Slime and Saproling Burst and Ashnod´s Altar to get his mana. He did not have a chance versus my Abyssal Persecutor and did not manage to get one of those Eldrazi on the table in any of the 3 games we played. I saw him pulling turn 4 Emrakul though in many other games, but not versus me. His deck did not "like him", let´s just put it that way. 2-1 for me.

Opponent 4 - Lands
Is it a bad matchup or is it just me? Game 1 i have absolutely no chance versus his Loam engine. Game 2 i board in 4 Leyline of the Void, mulligan down to 6 and start with one in play, which is neckbreaking for him - easy win for me.
Game 3.....let´s say was epic. I mulligan down to 3. Yes, you heard me. I mulligan down to 3 because i need a Leyline so badly, and well, i dont get to see it. Not much else to say other than i was really pissed. Do the math, what chance do you have of not getting a 4-off card after 5 different hands. It sux, i loose. 1-2 for me.

I place 7th with about 4 other players that scored the same. I dont get to pick anything therefore.
Guess what made first place.
Zoo - what else :)

Here is a short list of Decks i saw there:
White-Staxx
Zoo
Dredge/Ichorid
Lands/Loam
Canadian
Mono Red Aggro
AggroLoam

[redfog]

Playing local tournament last friday, made 9th place

1 round - 2:1 win vs Affinity
2 round - 2:0 win vs Dragon Stompy
3 round - 0:2 lose vs BWG Fish
4 round - 1:2 lose vs Ichorid

[Michael Keller]

Has anyone tested the Dredge MU? I still haven't but from how both decks play I think it's in their favour and not a 55/45 as Hollywood said.

@Hollywood: can you give some more details of your testings against this MU?

This was at a point in time where I ran Faerie Macabre main-deck. I had never lost a round to Dredge at that point in time. I am in the process of putting it back into the main.

Dredge has a tendency to obviously mulligan very aggressively.When you factor in discard elements to hit their key spells (on the play) along with cards like Faerie Macabre in the main, you already have an upper hand to cripple their early game and retroactively force them to wait it out several turns before they can get anything going. It really all depends on your sideboard; there are plenty of options to assist in the match. Our plays can severely cripple them (Dredge) on the play, and depending on how strong of a start we get, we can stunt their action quite early.

There are plenty of ways to also nix Bridges in here with cards like Innocent Blood and Gatekeeper of Malakir. I've never had much of a problem with Dredge, but in my testing I've found The gate to have a slight advantage based on surprise removal and a punishing offensive.

[pippo84]

I attended 2 tournaments this week.

The List:

[4x] Abyssal Persecutor
[4x] Gatekeeper of Malakir
[4x] Dark Confidant
[4x] Vampire Nighthawk

[4x] Duress
[4x] Innocent Blood
[3x] Smother
[3x] Cabal Therapy
[3x] Hymn to Tourach

[3x] Umezawa's Jitte
[3x] Bitterblossom

[17x] Swamp
[4x] Wasteland

//Sideboard

[4x] Extirpate
[3x] Pithing Needle
[3x] Spinning Darkness
[3x] Dystopia
[2x] Tormod's Crypt

Saturday:

It was a small local tournament to test for the following day. About 12 people + top 4

Round 1: Elves

1: Whatever he lands is killed/sacrificed and a Persecutor ends the game quickly-
2: Dystopia was so fun in this MU! It resets the board in a few turns and Persecutor does the job.

2-0

Round 2: Mono B (I showed a friend THE GATE) and he changed the list a bit..

1: We both emptied each other's hands and he starts beating me with a threat. I have a Jitte, but no creature. As soon as I see one (Persecutor) I win.
2: Don't remember why, but it was just easy and win.

2-0

Round 3: Phatty Boom (Dark Depths + Stiflenaught + CB + 13 Counters)

1: I start discarding and beating with creatures, but he lands 2 Dreadnought and I lose. And CB.
2: I Extirpate his Vampire Hexmage and play Cabal Therapy on Stifle/Dreadnought). Bob goes the way. Had to dodge CB triggers..
3: Discard + Sacrifice bring the game home.

2-1

Round 4: Vengevine Survival

We are both in top 4, so we ID and get something to drink.

Round 5 (top 4): Against W/B Weenie

1: I keep a 1 lander and don't draw any for many turns. He then Vindicates my land. I then start drawing some and kill some threats and land Jitte + Persecutor. He has an empty hand and draws PtE. I lose. My mistake of keeping that hand.
2: Jitte brings the game home.
3: We have both empty hands and just lands + I have Bitterblossom. He lands a Top and starts doing his job. He finds an Engineered Plague and casts it on Faerie. Great. I then draw 1 Duress, 1 Hymn and 7 lands.. Terrible draws: lose the game.

1-2

Sunday:

A nice tournament with more than 80 people.

Round 1: Faeries

1: He counters some stuff that I bait him and I make him discard some cards. Persecutor does the job.
2: I am in screw because of a double Wasteland and 1 Swamp.. He rolls me over with Bitterblossom + Jitte + Scion of Oona.
3: We both have empty hands and I land a Bob. He goes the distance since he has an empty hand all game and I refuel it.I also have a Jitte with 9 counters on it when the game ends!

2-1

Round 2: UW Tempo

1: Don't remember, but I win.
2: Vial + Jitte from his part win close the game.
3: I just discard his counters and kill his creatures.

2-1

Round 3: RG Goblins (great player, really strong)

1: I kill some threats and land a Persecutor + Nighthawk + Gatekeeper. He is going to die, but kills my Persecutor and I die next turn with loads of damage.
2: I open with Cabal Therapy, and call Lackey. Got it! He also has vial, but I manage to cast Innocent Blood + Smother and win with Persecutor.
3: He starts with Vial. I start with Pithing Needle. I land threats and remove his. I Waste a Taiga as soon as I see it. Persecutor + Nighthawk close the deal.

2-1

Round 4: Bant without CB

1: I open with 2 Swamps and a nice hand and keep. Discard his hand and never see another land. Lose.
2: Same as before.

0-2

Round 5: Landstill

1: This was a nearly impossible MU. He plays 3 Standstill that I have to break, and plays EE, Shackles, Elspeth, Jace 2.0
2: Worst than before. Even with Extirpate and Pithing Needle I can't do much, just slow him down. He ends the game with Elspeth, Jace 2.0 and Ajani (R/W).

0-2

Round 6: Survival Madness Vengevine against a friend

1: I mull to 5 and lose immediately.
2: On my third turn he has 3 cards in hand and 1 survival on the table. I have to try Dystopia. He forces. Then Vengevines hurt.

0-2

Round 6: Survival Madness Vengevine

1: I start with Duress. Take out the Counter. He plays Hierarch that dies i my turn. Blossom + Nighthawk win.
2: Bob + Jitte win. I was also holding Extirpate in hand.
This guy was angry at me.

2-0

So I ended up with a terrible 4-3...............

Except against Landstill that is a terrible MU the other games that I lost were because of land screw. This sucks. Anyways the deck is great!

The side was nothing exceptional. Boarded in Spinning Darkness against Goblins, but didn't see any. Extirpate was great and Dystopia will probably be a 4 of. Then I just have to understand how to improve the heavy control MU (Jace Control, Landstill).

Btw I'm happy about playing Smother instead of Deathmark and the whole deck was good..

[gustha]

I have to admit my deck shone in that round, drawing nearly everything. G2 I had some nice tricks (brainstorm to make you believe I hid force) and all, but topdecked all my wincons after shuffling with ponder or fetch. G2 you also screwed and Ajani did his job, and it was really unexpected for you. The fact is, if you don't land bob o aren't able to protect him via discard you can't do very much. Pithing Needle only slows me down a little since I have more wincons than you have needles or extirpates. However, the round before a player had sided against me Dystopia, and it really hurted, getting rid of ajani vengent (when it had 8 counters on it, damn!) and elspeth (after having bolt a token). Since it is very unlikely that I bring disenchant effect against you, maybe dystopia can be a good strategy. Contamination may have a spot too.

Besides this I love this deck, too bad I don't have the cards to build it!

[pippo84]

I have to admit my deck shone in that round, drawing nearly everything. G2 I had some nice tricks (brainstorm to make you believe I hid force) and all, but topdecked all my wincons after shuffling with ponder or fetch. G2 you also screwed and Ajani did his job, and it was really unexpected for you. The fact is, if you don't land bob o aren't able to protect him via discard you can't do very much. Pithing Needle only slows me down a little since I have more wincons than you have needles or extirpates. However, the round before a player had sided against me Dystopia, and it really hurted, getting rid of ajani vengent (when it had 8 counters on it, damn!) and elspeth (after having bolt a token). Since it is very unlikely that I bring disenchant effect against you, maybe dystopia can be a good strategy. Contamination may have a spot too.

Besides this I love this deck, too bad I don't have the cards to build it!

I also sided Dystopia against you, but didn't see it. Anyways in that game I was under a train, had really no chance of doing anything. I was also thinking of Contamination + Bitterblossom yesterday getting home..

P.S. I also forgot I got screwed against you as you told me. I will add 1 more Swamp. 22 lands...

[DarkRite]

I have been playing this deck a lot recently. The list i have been using is as follows,

4 Abyssal Persecutor
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Gatekeeper of malakir
4 Dark Confidant

3 Jitte

4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Innocent blood
4 hymn to tourach

17 Swamps
4 Wasteland

4 Faerie Macabre
4 Leyline of the void
4 spinning darkness
3 chainers edict

the decks that normal show up in my meta are ANT, MUC, Reanimator, Solidarity, Dreadstill counter-top thopter goblins merfolk eva-green, thresh and there is one 43 lands player.

[bakofried]

That looks more like SuiBlack than The Gate (by maxing discard, running Rit+Hippie).
Just try out the list in the OP.

[sporenfrosch1411]

I don't see the advantage of Dark Ritual over Bitterblossom and also i dont think that 4 Innocent Blood + 4 Gatekeeper is enough removal hence the Gatekeeper is @ casting cost 3.

[pippo84]

Any hints on how to improve the Control MU?

I will also try and add the 22nd land, I got screwed to many times. I just hate it. It can happen, but not that often. Any hint on what to cut?

Btw I have to say that the weakest card in the MD was Bitterblossom. It was good and so on, but nothing exceptional.

Has anyone thought of a small green splash for Berserk? It's another way to remove persecutor and the game ends faster, a good thing in certain situations.
And green gives Krosan Grip..
Not sureit's needed though..

[TheyCallMeTim]

Has anyone considered the following sentiment: Bone Splinters > Innocent Blood? Of course there is a time when creatures have some type of protection against targeting spells, but I recently faced an opponent's Phyrexian Dreadnought along side a much less scary vanilla creature and only held an Innocent Blood. I'm sure an argument could be made similar to Hollywood's defense of Deathmark that names the commonly played targets that are immune to Bone Splinters. Of course the Show and Tell / Sneak Attack monsters immediately come to mind. However, Bone Splinters appears to generally be a much better card.

[pippo84]

Has anyone considered the following sentiment: Bone Splinters > Innocent Blood? Of course there is a time when creatures have some type of protection against targeting spells, but I recently faced an opponent's Phyrexian Dreadnought along side a much less scary vanilla creature and only held an Innocent Blood. I'm sure an argument could be made similar to Hollywood's defense of Deathmark that names the commonly played targets that are immune to Bone Splinters. Of course the Show and Tell / Sneak Attack immediately comes to mind. However, Bone Splinters appears to generally be a much better card.

Let's say your opponent started and you are facing a Goblin Lackey. You can play Innocent Blood, but not Bone Splinters. Thus Innocent Blood is stronger. And you can replace Deathmark with Smother as I did or with Ghastly Demise if you want to.

[TheyCallMeTim]

Let's say your opponent started and you are facing a Goblin Lackey. You can play Innocent Blood, but not Bone Splinters. Thus Innocent Blood is stronger. And you can replace Deathmark with Smother as I did or with Ghastly Demise if you want to.

No shit, once again I am retarded. However, there is an upside to sacrificing as part of the cost. Such as when you need to lose your Abyssal Persecutor and your opponent has counterspells. Does playing a combination of Innocent Blood and Bone Splinters make sense as opposed to running Deathmark or other suggested replacements?

[ns2973]

No shit, once again I am retarded. However, there is an upside to sacrificing as part of the cost. Such as when you need to lose your Abyssal Persecutor and your opponent has counterspells. Does playing a combination of Innocent Blood and Bone Splinters make sense as opposed to running Deathmark or other suggested replacements?

I don't think so. There are a ton of sacrifice effects anyway, the turn one is pretty important and i want stability in the first 3 turns more than i want more sac abilities. As for deathmark, i get that, meta depending of course. I just don't like the linear nature of the bone splinters as compared to deathmark.

[TheyCallMeTim]

In most cases, Innocent Blood can be your only possible turn one removal spell as Deathmark doesn't hit Goblins or Fish, Smother costs 1B and you'll have no graveyard for Ghastly Demise. In the remaining cases we simply play Duress or Cabal Therapy. True, there are alot of Cats running around out there but I think Bone Splinters may have a place in some builds, specifically those not running Deathmark.

[Lifeless]

That is precisely why I have been looking at Vindicate. I havn't have a chance to test it out yet.

[TheyCallMeTim]

That is precisely why I have been looking at Vindicate. I havn't have a chance to test it out yet.

Can you elaborate? I'm not gonna give you the "it's no longer The Gate" response, but I do think that mono black is the only build for me.

[Lifeless]

Can you elaborate? I'm not gonna give you the "it's no longer The Gate" response, but I do think that mono black is the only build for me.

Sorry, I mean Vendetta. I was considering it as a replacement for Deathmark since I see a whole lot more Goblins and Merfolk than Goyf nowadays.

[TheyCallMeTim]

I see. Vendetta is nice. Instant speed is good but it might hurt alot to kill a Tarmogoyf.

[Lifeless]

I see. Vendetta is nice. Instant speed is good but it might hurt alot to kill a Tarmogoyf.

It's all theory craft at this point but I like it. Realistically it will cost you 3 or 4 life to kill the Goyf early, while late you have better cards to kill it. It's got all the tempo of Deathmark while being able to kill everything from Lackey to man-lands. Doubles your outs against Lackey on the draw. That's primarily why I was going to try it out.

[largebrandon]

It's all theory craft at this point but I like it. Realistically it will cost you 3 or 4 life to kill the Goyf early, while late you have better cards to kill it. It's got all the tempo of Deathmark while being able to kill everything from Lackey to man-lands. I can double your outs against Lackey on the draw. That's primarily why I was going to try it out.

If you're expecting to lose that much life anyway, why not just play snuffout, where the late game you can just cast it with no life loss.

[sporenfrosch1411]

With the upcoming of Scars of Mirrodin i am expecting to see more and more "Artifact-based" decks like Affinity or Mono-Brown in my meta.
Has any one else tried the Affinity matchup? I encountered 2 people on MWS yesterday, both of which played Vial-Affinity with "Galvanic Blast" and "Mox Opal". They both stomped me into the ground without any trouble.
Aside from Gate to Phyrexia, and Pithing Needle on Ravager - what can be done about this?






PS, for those who are not familiar with the 2 upcoming cards i mentioned here, here is what they do:

Mox Opal 0
Legendary Artifact
Metalcraft - [T]: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool

Galvanic Blast R
Instant
Does 2 dmg to any target
Metalcraft - Does 4 dmg instead.

[pippo84]

Never tested The Gate against Affinity, but I don't think it's a hard MU.. We'll see if Scars will bring good hards to make the deck playable in Legacy.

Anyways I tested again against Jace Control (aka Ubg Landeed) and the MU is really impossible. From my testings this deck is really good against Aggro and Aggro Control, it sucks against Control and never got a chance to test against Combo because it dissapeared from my meta.

So.. Changes I will try: - 1 Gatekeeper of Malakir + 1 Swamp. Got screwed many times and had to mulligan often to have lands.

Then.. Need advice on what to do with the Sideboard to improve the Control MU. Hints and advice?

What are your experiences against Heavy Control MU's? (Landstill, Jace Control..)

[Droxis]

Good therapy/hymn use/luck. Its not an easy match up by any stretch, but not exactly impossible. I've been liking sadistic sacrament in the SB for it. You should focus on what your deck is already good at fighting, instead of bogging it down with stuff for one bad match up (unless your metagame is completely flooded with the problem deck, then by all means).

[worsel]

Against control and combo, how about Nether Void, or Sphere of Resistance?

[sporenfrosch1411]

Against Combo, you need to mulligan until you have a turn 1 Duress. I'm dead serious!
If you play against Belcher or Tendrils or such it doesn't matter what your hand looks like as long as there is a swamp and a Duress. It's your only win-option :)

Sphere of Resistance with its casting cost 2 doesn't seem very effective to me - it's just too slow. Nether Void is only playable with Dark Ritual i think.

As stupid as it may sound, im trying out the following sideboard atm:

3 Extirpate
4 Dark Ritual
3 Sadistic Sacrament
2 Pithing Needle
3 Spinning Darkness

Against any type of Combo i would board out all 4 Persecutors and all 3 Deathmark and put in 3 Sadistic Sacrament(hit win-option) and 4 Dark Ritual.
Against any type of Aggro i would board out e.g. 1 Hymn, 1 Duress, 1 Therapy and board in 3 Spinning Darkness(hit creature). If it is any non green or white aggro, just swap Deathmark for "the Darkness".
Against control i would board out 3 Deathmark, 2 Gatekeeper, and board in 3 Sadistic Sacrament(hit Jace/Win option), 3 Pithing Needle(hit Top)

I know it looks really absurd, but it is working quite well. I am hardly missing the Dystopia here, mainly because i never see Solitaire/Enchantress.
With this sideboard, Combo in general is a favorable matchup post-board :)

[Seraph2k]

Interesting Sbplan. Even if you don`t have a sacrament in your starting 7 a ritual together with a duress and a hymn can crippe him and buy you enough time. Maybe I´ll test that during the next days.
My problem with this SB is that there are NO dystopias, which are so important in a lot of games here in germany....

[sporenfrosch1411]

Dunno, just won a game versus Enchantress/Solitaire. Game 2 he had the white Leyline in his starting hand, that game i wished for Dystopia. But i won 2-1 versus him after all.
Sadistic Sacrament is evil i tell you. If you have a slight advance in your board position and can play a Sacrament it's like christmas. You can basically wish for what you would like to not see the rest of the game - it's just great. And first turn Ritual into Sacrament is a "kill" on JaceControl-archetypes :)
The same is true for Reanimator. If you hit the Sacrament before they hit Iona, the match is VERY winnable :)
If they don't have that Force to answer your Sacrament, they are pretty much done. Amazing for an otherwise really bad matchup.
I need to do more testing on Extirpate, but so far i found it superiour to Faery Macabre and to Leyline of the Void. You don't have to mulligan down to it (though you could do it versus Reanimator) and with it's Split Second it is a lot like the faery.
Versus Lands/Loam Extirpate is such a great card, versus Dredge i don't know.


What would you cut for Dystopia?

[pippo84]

Good therapy/hymn use/luck. Its not an easy match up by any stretch, but not exactly impossible. I've been liking sadistic sacrament in the SB for it. You should focus on what your deck is already good at fighting, instead of bogging it down with stuff for one bad match up (unless your metagame is completely flooded with the problem deck, then by all means).

Why should I focus on improving MU's I already win (aka are favourable)? And yes, Jace Control is becoming very popular in my meta.


@sporen...: Interesting SB plan. On the play opening with Dark Ritual, Sadistic Sacrament can ruin a game plan. But I'm not so sure you'll have them in your opening to be so effective. So I would cut the Rituals for Dystopia..

[bakofried]

Hollywood, are you madrad917 on mtgsalvation.com? They put up a primer for The Gate, credited it to him. Didn't know if you knew. Also, how is your sideboard testing going? Sad Sac doing good things for you as well as everyone else?

[sporenfrosch1411]

Are you allowed to link it here? If so, please do that :)

[Kove]

The Gate, primer adapted from Hollywood's primer@mtgthesource
The deck generates card advantage and allows a clear opportunity to play unmatched threats while stockpiling cards, life, and creatures. By doing so, it becomes very difficult for an opponent to match this level of consistency when you repeatedly have answers for everything they try. By conducting this strategy, the deck opens itself up for so much more flexibility. Each card in the deck serves an important purpose. Black had so many good, underused things going for it. Peoplesjust overlook it as being a crutch-color for decks that need combo protection or acceleration and really nothing more.


Taken from the very first post of the The Gate thread on mtgsalvation.com. :) Dunno if I'm allowed to link so I didn't. Sorry for the OT but I thought I'd post it here.

[Michael Keller]

Hollywood, are you madrad917 on mtgsalvation.com? They put up a primer for The Gate, credited it to him. Didn't know if you knew. Also, how is your sideboard testing going? Sad Sac doing good things for you as well as everyone else?

No harm, no foul; credit was given so that's cool. But I'd also like to give credit here where it is due: A lot of folks had similar ideas like The Gate before its inception came to competitive fruition; I just piloted it, that's all. It's not really a new concept by any stretch of the imagination. The deck just takes the Mono-Black archetype to a new and exciting direction - a direction much different than the usual, "Swamp, Ritual, Hypnotic Specter, go" turn one.

I came up with the name for it while I was watching the movie (The Gate, 1987) with my wife and thought to myself, "Hey, that would be a sweet title for this new deck I'm working on." I was watching Steven Dorff get his thumb bit off by his possessed friend Terry, who subsequently got a "Barbie Doll" leg jammed through his eye when I finally had a moment of clarity. Quite inspirational.

At any rate, my sideboard has been in constant flux for a while now. It really comes down to how comfortable you feel in a given meta-game. I've been trying all sorts of different variations over the last few weeks and I'm really starting to like Sadistic Sacrament more and more. It shuts off the problematic cards right from the start - much like Pithing Needle - but also strips decks of other cards that are difficult to deal with at the same time.

Pithing Needle in testing seems a little shaky because while it does effectively shut down those cards deemed problematic, it is really just a card that doesn't do much else on its own once it hits the battlefield. It can be dealt with in a multitude of different ways, but Sacrament is a good surprise that eliminates the problem for good. It just feels more aggressive and can potentially severely damage an opponents' path to victory. I'm testing it more and more to see how good it truly is and so far (against Combo) it has worked out pretty well. It supplements the discard package nicely post-board and neuters decks reliant on certain cards to win (i.e. Sneak Attack, Show and Tell, Survival of the Fittest, etc.).

[Cabal_chan]

Taken from the very first post of the The Gate thread on mtgsalvation.com. :) Dunno if I'm allowed to link so I didn't. Sorry for the OT but I thought I'd post it here.

Just to explain how that came about, for what it's worth. I felt The Gate was the natural evolution of MBA, so I updated the thread title. Lacking an actual primer, someone PM'd me one. I posted it, and someone told me it was almost word for word a copy of the primer here. Ergo, I gave credit where credit is due.

My apologies for not asking here first if borrowing the primer was ok(some people, understandably, can have strong feelings on that).

/derail :P

[pippo84]

So, is it just me that is having screw problems with 21 lands?

Sadly I started thinking of splashing a color to improve the bad MU's.. But I don't reall want to do it even though I have the cards..