[Deck] The Gate

[AlterEgo]

So, is it just me that is having screw problems with 21 lands?

Sadly I started thinking of splashing a color to improve the bad MU's.. But I don't reall want to do it even though I have the cards..

Not at all.
I tried 21 at Nationals and got screwed half the day...

[pippo84]

Not at all.
I tried 21 at Nationals and got screwed half the day...

Ok, good to know it isn't just me.. What do you recommand to cut for the 18th swamp? I was thinking of Gatekeeper of Malakir. It's a tought choiche though because all the MB is so tight and important.

@Hollywood: did you cut Pithing Needle for Sadistic Sacrament? How are your testing against heavy control decks going?

[Michael Keller]

Ok, good to know it isn't just me.. What do you recommand to cut for the 18th swamp? I was thinking of Gatekeeper of Malakir. It's a tought choiche though because all the MB is so tight and important.

@Hollywood: did you cut Pithing Needle for Sadistic Sacrament? How are your testing against heavy control decks going?

As of right now my sideboard has been largely shifted towards a split in dealing with Combo and Control. Creature heavy decks and decks packing burn spells aren't too troublesome because we already have an unusual amount of life-gain for a Mono-Black deck in Jitte and Nighthawk. Removal obviously helps against creatures, so I've been adjusting and evaluating my board taking all things into consideration.

As of right now, my board looks like this:

//Sideboard

[3x] Dystopia
[3x] Sadistic Sacrament
[3x] Thorn of Amethyst
[3x] Gate to Phyrexia
[3x] Faerie Macabre

I'm really focused on trying to shut down slower combo with Sacrament and punishing faster combo with Thorn (with a solid discard package). Gate to Phyrexia has been effective against artifact-heavy decks, which could be a problem post-Scars. It's still in flux, but this is working great for me so far.

[pippo84]

As of right now my sideboard has been largely shifted towards a split in dealing with Combo and Control. Creature heavy decks and decks packing burn spells aren't too troublesome because we already have an unusual amount of life-gain for a Mono-Black deck in Jitte and Nighthawk. Removal obviously helps against creatures, so I've been adjusting and evaluating my board taking all things into consideration.

As of right now, my board looks like this:

//Sideboard

[3x] Dystopia
[3x] Sadistic Sacrament
[3x] Thorn of Amethyst
[3x] Gate to Phyrexia
[3x] Faerie Macabre

I'm really focused on trying to shut down slower combo with Sacrament and punishing faster combo with Thorn (with a solid discard package). Gate to Phyrexia has been effective against artifact-heavy decks, which could be a problem post-Scars. It's still in flux, but this is working great for me so far.


Well, good to know! I'll probably stick with Needles in my SB because Combo has disappeared after the banning of Mystical Tutor, and heavy control decks (Landstill/Landeed) are more popular atm. Well, and aggro is everythere!
For this reason I need an answer to Planeswalkers and just discard isn't enought. I will try some Sadistic Sacraments, they may help against Planeswalkers IF the spell will resolve..

P.S. Vengvine survival is also getting real popular here, so I will keep my Extirpates in the board.

[Osmin]

So, is it just me that is having screw problems with 21 lands?

Huh. With 21 land I am more often flooded. With 20 - screwed.

[Michael Keller]

Updated the opening post for reference. Also, I will be taking The Gate to Star City Games' Baltimore Legacy Open this Sunday. I'll be sure to write up a report.

Most of the changes from the deck have thrived in the sideboard. It's always in a constant state of flux, but I'm attempting to gear it towards this Sunday in hopes of dealing with Vengevine-Survival and ANT (thus the inclusions of Thorn of Amethyst and Extirpate, respectively). I'm still testing it.

[pippo84]

@Hollywood: So Sadistic Sacrament did not convince you? I still haven't had the chance to test it..

Why both Faerie Macabre and Extirpate? Both for Survival and Dredge? Why not Tormod's Crypt instead of Faerie?

I won't cut needles. They are the only answer to Planeswalkers.. Landstill/Jace Control are alreay terrible MU's, without it would be even worse!

Just my thoughts..

[Michael Keller]

@Hollywood: So Sadistic Sacrament did not convince you? I still haven't had the chance to test it..

Why both Faerie Macabre and Extirpate? Both for Survival and Dredge? Why not Tormod's Crypt instead of Faerie?

I won't cut needles. They are the only answer to Planeswalkers.. Landstill/Jace Control are alreay terrible MU's, without it would be even worse!

Just my thoughts..

Faerie Macabre hits critical elements of an opponent's graveyard before it actually comes to fruition. By stunting them this way with uncounterable removal, it is extraordinarily hard to stop. Being a body helps, too.

Tormod's Crypt, on the other hand, isn't really here because it does nothing more than sit on the board and is a "one and done" when it is used. People play around Crypt very easily, but Faerie Macabre is much more difficult to deal with because of its surprise factor and targeted removal.

Extirpate is a fine compliment with Faerie, and I've been incessantly testing both options to the point where Faerie Macabre just convinces me that with Extirpate they are unstoppable graveyard disruption that works wonders against the unknowing.

Pithing Needle is a card that I've also been testing to the bone (notably against Landstill variants and other decks utilizing Jace, the Mind Sculptor). It has been somewhat useful when it hits the board, but the problem stems from its lack of action and fragility. It has versatile utility, but the problem is that it feels almost like a wasted slot when something much more effective could be used in its stead. If I do decide to play Needle, I am going with a full play-set. The card is just begging to be used in multiples in order to be able to draw it and make at least a second one stick.

I liken it to Leyline of the Void: If it's not in your opening draw, the card becomes relatively useless and forces you to mulligan more aggressively to be able to find it - if you play a full set. I've always considered Needle as being "weak" because it doesn't solve a problem outright and has the ability to be dealt with in a multitude of different ways. Needle is a card that on paper looks great, but in testing becomes a little shaky due to several factors:

a. The inability to draw into one of the two (or three) you might play.
b. Its fragility in succumbing to all sorts of removal.
c. Forcing the deck to mulligan aggressively to be able to find it.

Looking at other cards in the sideboard, there are a multitude of different uses each card has aside from being stationary permanents. Pithing Needle is a control element that should be played as a full set because of its critical importance in those match-ups that warrant its use. This would be strictly for the Control match-up; Pithing Needle is a relatively "dead" draw against most other decks because it provides no impending action from The Gate pilot and allows an opponent to customize their offense along the way.

It's not a glaring weakness of Needle, but it has risen in testing.

[pippo84]

Good answer, I see your point. Anyways I find Needle also good against Vial, Top, Shackles and Planeswalkers.
One thing that I noticed is that we have slightly different opinions because we play in different metas. I have to think about control because it's rising and combo is dead, while you have to think about combo..

P.S. We don't have to think about aggro because it's everywhere and the deck performs well against it.

[sporenfrosch1411]

Im planning to play TheGate again this weekend on a small tourney and im in somewhat of a trouble, because i dont have my Extirpate's yet....

At the moment, this is what im planning to have as my sideboard:

3 Dystopia
3 Spinning Darkness
3 Pithing Needle
3 Faerie Macabre
3 ______ (in this slot, there should be 3 Extirpate)

I am looking forward to see one or two "Lands"-player and perhaps even a "Reanimator"-player, can you give me a tip what i could use against them?
I thought about "Tsabo's Web" or "Planar Void" or "Leyline of the Void" - but i feel like the Leyline is bad since you have to mulligan aggressively to get it. Last time at the tournament, i was playing against that "Lands"-player and even after mulligan to 3, i did not get to see a Leyline on my opening hand. Has anyone tested "Tsabo's Web" and is it in any way usable against any other deck aside from "Lands" ?
I also thought about "Cremate" since it gives you a card back after removing a card :) What do you think?
(I am aware that Extirpate is the best choice, but as i said, i won't be able to have my 3 Extirpate by saturday :( )

[Michael Keller]

Im planning to play TheGate again this weekend on a small tourney and im in somewhat of a trouble, because i dont have my Extirpate's yet....

At the moment, this is what im planning to have as my sideboard:

3 Dystopia
3 Spinning Darkness
3 Pithing Needle
3 Faerie Macabre
3 ______ (in this slot, there should be 3 Extirpate)

I am looking forward to see one or two "Lands"-player and perhaps even a "Reanimator"-player, can you give me a tip what i could use against them?
I thought about "Tsabo's Web" or "Planar Void" or "Leyline of the Void" - but i feel like the Leyline is bad since you have to mulligan aggressively to get it. Last time at the tournament, i was playing against that "Lands"-player and even after mulligan to 3, i did not get to see a Leyline on my opening hand. Has anyone tested "Tsabo's Web" and is it in any way usable against any other deck aside from "Lands" ?
I also thought about "Cremate" since it gives you a card back after removing a card :) What do you think?
(I am aware that Extirpate is the best choice, but as i said, i won't be able to have my 3 Extirpate by saturday :( )

Against decks like Reanimator, you'll obviously want to bring in Faerie Macabre and Extirpate, depending on what kind of build they are running. Those cards really help seal the deal as they are basically unstoppable counters to an already punishing discard package. Mystical Tutor is gone, so there really are no tricks involved here.

Lands is a deck I've tested against with Tsabo's Web to some interesting results. The problem is, a lot of folks aren't running Lands a lot where I play (or in any big event that I've played in recently) to warrant its inclusion. It works awesome - don't get me wrong - but it is certainly more of a meta call than anything else.

Extirpate is good in both of these match-ups and has become increasingly more effective against Vengevine-Survival variants. I have even begun thinking about shifting Faerie back into the main to help contend a little more easily with those decks Game One as opposed to accepting a little more difficult match. Faerie serves multiple purposes, so it just might not be a bad idea to whisk him back into the main and see how it works. I've been doing some extensive research on The Source notating the number of people running into that deck (V.S.) and it has a very strong Game One against most decks in the format, due in large part to the overwhelming nature of the deck's speed and unexpectedness.

[pippo84]

I tested against Vengevine Survival because the deck is getting popular here.
It's really fast! Faerie probably works well against them,but Extirpate works woders!
Anyways game 1 is really tough because they are really fast, but if you see a Noble Hierarch on the table turn one you must kill it!

[sporenfrosch1411]

Which should be "do-able" if you play 3 Deathmark + 4 Innocent Blood :)
And even if you don't have that, you can still try a Cabal Therapy on Survival on turn 1. If not for any of those solutions, duress could also help.

I should test this matchup, because on the paper, i am not very scared playing TheGate against VengevineSurvival :)
...this is ofcourse as long as u can prevent Iona....
Iona hitting the board without having an active Dystopia, that is kind´a game over i guess....
But post-board, you also have Needle, Extirpate and Dystopia. Is this really such a hard matchup ?!

[pippo84]

Which should be "do-able" if you play 3 Deathmark + 4 Innocent Blood :)
And even if you don't have that, you can still try a Cabal Therapy on Survival on turn 1. If not for any of those solutions, duress could also help.

I should test this matchup, because on the paper, i am not very scared playing TheGate against VengevineSurvival :)
...this is ofcourse as long as u can prevent Iona....
Iona hitting the board without having an active Dystopia, that is kind´a game over i guess....
But post-board, you also have Needle, Extirpate and Dystopia. Is this really such a hard matchup ?!

When I sided I didn't board in Needles because I didn't know what to cut! Extirpate and Dystopia seemed enough. But obviously Needle on Survival is a good call.

Anyways no, it isn't a bad MU. Game 1 they can be really fast, that's it. Game 2 with SB cards it's much easier.

[sporenfrosch1411]

I played another 20-man tournament today, and sure thing i played TheGate :)
Here is a quick summary:

Opponent 1 : Belcher
I know the guy who is playing it. He is a really good player AND has the "drawskill". He wins the diceroll, kills me first turn with a belcher. Game 2 he wins by turn 3, even though i had him discard a belcher. Why? Well, he had another one in his hand :)
0-2

Opponent 2 : Zoo
Hard match, but with all my removal i can finish him off game 1 with a Persecutor. Game 2 i am flooded and he just beats me to death with Nacatl. Game 3 is a close call, but i can manage to win it with double Bitterblossom.
2-1

Opponent 3 : Aggro Loam (Confidant, Loam, Knight of the Reliquary, Countryside Crusher)
Game 1 is a close call in which i can get him down to 3 life while i am at 5. Too bad he has a Maze of Ith which disables whatever i want my Jitte on. I can't handle the lifeloss from Bitterblossom and am really pissed off. Game 2 i get my Leylines and Faeries in. I start, put Leyline of the Void, Swamp on the table and cast Duress. After that, i drew 7 lands and lost to triple Goyf. This was hilarious - in a bad way.
0-2

Opponent 4 : Raffinity
I was really scared of this matchup, but my opponent is new to Legacy (and i think kinda new to Magic in general). There is not much to say about this besides that i won because of his many mis-plays :). If a good player plays Raffinity, i think TheGate has zero chance.
2-1

Opponent 5 : Merfolk
Lord, Lord, Lord, Lord, Lord -> is that enough explanation :D ?
In all seriousness, game 1 i was screwed and game 2 he was so epic fast that i could not catch up.
0-2

So i lost 3 games and won 2 games. Maybe it's me, but summing it up i had 2-2, 2-2 and 2-3. This were the last 3 tournaments. So i allways placed somewhere in the middle. I currently think about changing the deck in a manner, that it won't be TheGate anymore. After playing it in 3 tournaments and countless rounds on MWS, i see the potential and the upsides this deck has, but it is too inconsistent in my opinion. You just draw and hope for the best. You have allmost no business on your opponents turns. I can't really point the finger at what the problem is, but i don't feel like TheGate is that much of an over-the-top deck :) Its kinda fun to play (when you are not screwed or flooded) but it has not much tricks going on. I feel like i need tricks, something "imbalanced" that just hits your opponent in the face but thats a personal thing.....

[TheyCallMeTim]

Has anyone had the unfortunate experience of flipping over a Spinning Darkness with Dark Confidant? Do you side Bob out for the matches that Darkness comes in for? I've been thinking about boarding Soul Reap as a Deathmark replacement...

[sporenfrosch1411]

Soul Reap sounds really bad on the paper. I see no advantage over Diabolic Edict or Smother or Doom Blade or .....
Also i really don't get how destroying a "non-green" creature is a replacement for "destroy a green or white creature" in today's legacy...
Read Hollywood's starting post about Deathmark. If ever, go for the other removal options i stated before. I personally would not want to miss Deathmark though. Hell, i even considered playing a fourth main :)

The problem "bob+spinning darkness" has never happened to me in practice, and even if it happens, its "only" a loose of 3 life after having played it, which is acceptable. Versus Zoo you could board out confidant for Spinning Darkness, in all other matchups (except burn ofcourse) i would never board out Confidant. He is a beater which provides card-advantage and as long as you can get a Jitte or a Nighthawk on the table, the loss of life is close to irrelevant.

[TheyCallMeTim]

Soul Reap sounds really bad on the paper. I see no advantage over Diabolic Edict or Smother or Doom Blade or .....
Also i really don't get how destroying a "non-green" creature is a replacement for "destroy a green or white creature" in today's legacy...
Read Hollywood's starting post about Deathmark. If ever, go for the other removal options i stated before. I personally would not want to miss Deathmark though. Hell, i even considered playing a fourth main :)


I suppose I wasn't clear. What I meant was that Soul Reap might be a good card to board in for Deathmark in the match-ups where it would be a dead card. Of course if they have no green or white creatures, then 'non-green' is not an issue. Also, it's targeted removal unlike Diabolic Edict and has more flexibility than either Smother or Doom Blade. Your suggestion would leave me helpless against anything Red, Blue, Black or cmc greater than 3, whereas a MB/SB combination of Deathmark and Soul Reap hits every creature possible.

[sporenfrosch1411]

I can't think of many creatures in Legacy that smother would not hit, aside from those with shroud, which Soul Reap won't hit either.
Give me some examples of creatures that are played often and cost more than 3 mana :)

[pippo84]

Sorry to say, but I'm dropping this deck. It's too limited.
I will get back to my Blue lists that don't lose to topdecked cards.

[sporenfrosch1411]

Sorry to say, but I'm dropping this deck. It's too limited.
I will get back to my Blue lists that don't lose to topdecked cards.

That is an epic problem i don't like about TheGate too :D

[bakofried]

@Hollywood:
I was wondering how you were going about switching to MD Faerie Macabre. Apparently Survival just did really well, so we need to prepped for VV's.

[AlterEgo]

So far I've been quite pleased with how Vendetta worked out, although my first tournament with it ended in a 1/4/0 disaster.
My opponents were Merfolk (twice), Goblins, Bant Survival and UGR Faeries... I think I just made too many mistakes in boarding as well as in playing.

[sporenfrosch1411]

Well, in my Opinion double Merfolk + Goblins is a really bad pairing :/

How did the Bant Survival matchup go? Can you report a bit on that match?

[pippo84]

Well, in my Opinion double Merfolk + Goblins is a really bad pairing :/

How did the Bant Survival matchup go? Can you report a bit on that match?


How can you say that these are bad pairings?

This deck is designed to beat aggro. It sucks against control and combo. I would play this deck all day long with those MU's!!

But as I already said I dropped the deck yesterday..

[sporenfrosch1411]

With 4 Duress, 3 Hymn to Tourach and 3 Cabal Therapy (and also Bitterblossom) i would not say that this deck sucks versus control. I allways felt like the control matchups are mostly good for me.
Versus combo you have to mulligan UNTIL you get at least a Duress in your opening hand, then it is "do-able".
Aggro is not in all cases a good matchup. Getting swarmed (like Goblins and Merfolk tend to do) is not an easy thing to deal with.
At the moment, there are only 4 matchups that i consider bad from the experience i have and those are:
Merfolk - if he speeds out and swarms you
Goblins - see Merfolk
Belcher - It is just too fast and can win, even if you get out keyspells, IF he top-decks 'em again.
Tendrils - Without mindbreak trap in the sideboard, i don't know how to beat this deck :/

I think all other matchups are winnable and at worst some are hard.

[AlterEgo]

My list from the weekend:
3 Abyssal Persecutor
4 Dark Confidant
4 Vampire Nighthawk
2 Faerie Macabre
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
3 Bitterblossom

2 Cabal Therapy
3 Diabolic Edict
2 Duress
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Innocent Blood
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Vendetta
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Umezawa's Jitte

3 Wasteland
18 Swamp

Sideboard
2 Duress
3 Leyline of the Void
4 Spinning Darkness (I'm NEVER going to cut it!)
3 Oblivion Stone (sloooow - but there's not much else left)
3 Pithing Needle

Against Bant...
Despite a 1st turn Inquisition (taking Retainers over Noble) he gets down Survival (topdeck). He Swords my Confidant and I can't handle his creatures. A fat, double-striking rhino seals the deal for him, because don't see any more removal.
Game 2 is ended by a turn three Iona, that I had unfortunately hit with my turn 2 Hymn... :(

Btw, this was the only match, that went 0-2 against me. The last one (Faeries) I won 2-0 and against each of the tribals I went 1-2 in the end.
This actually makes me feel like I should have won at least one more round.

[sporenfrosch1411]

Does this mean you lost all matches except Faeries?
I dont really understand what you mean by "stole game 1 or game 2" :) Does it mean you have gone 1-2 versus all those decks?

[EssKay]

Hollywood, If I'm reading the SCG results right, it appears you went 4-3-drop. Care to actually address this now, or are we still playing head-in-the-sand?


Honestly, this deck is good in a lot of categories, but not really great at anything. It isn't as fast or agressive as Goblins, Zoo, Merfolk, Elves, Dredge, Combo, etc, nor can it protect itself or establish board position as well as Lands, Countertop, Blue anything, or Stax. Explain to me what the Gate does better than any of Legacy's leading archetypes?

[sporenfrosch1411]

4-3-drop reminds me of all the results i had so far :/ (except that i never drop, i'm in for the fun :P )
Would be really nice if you could give us a quick resumee of what you were playing against, which sideboard you chose and why you did.....so...mediocre.

Btw @ Esskay: can you give me link to the tournament? Google doesn't like me which means i did not find anything....

[EssKay]

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/standard/20100_Live_Coverage_of_StarCityGamescom_Open_Baltimore.html

[Michael Keller]

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/standard/20100_Live_Coverage_of_StarCityGamescom_Open_Baltimore.html

I'm not playing head in the sand at all; I've been taking care of my own business all day and sometimes Magic takes a back-seat. Besides, it hasn't even been a full twenty-four hours, so relax.

At any rate: The results do not lie. I went 4-3 in the event and dropped after round seven (when I could have padded my record to a potentially modest 6-3). It's funny because most of my losses were so close, I could have just as easily gone 6-1 in that time. I didn't do that, however, and have some ideas for updating the list.

You have to understand that in a field of two-hundred thirty-two players, there is going to be some level of parity. Not everyone is going to make Top Eight, although that was my primary goal. I was impressed with the deck's performance but have noticed that it does require something a little more. It needs another draw engine (besides Dark Confidant) and more Equipment.

I was also startled at the number of Loam-based decks that were rolling around everywhere. I'm beginning to wonder if Tsabo's Web would be a generally good idea for a large meta. I've seen this happen on more than one occasion.

I am no longer sold on three Deathmark main-deck. However, it was relevant in all but one round, so that kind of proves my point that it was no doubt effective. I even had a kid call me out on playing them main, and a judge came over and smiled gleefully stating that I did in fact main-deck them (much to his chagrin). I ended up crushing him, but I do need to make sure the deck maintains a high level of versatility. It performed up to the level of my expectations and I'll go into detail about what can be done as far as fixing some major flaws are concerned.

[bakofried]

So what changes are you thinking of making?

[Raven]

If Deathmark performed that badly it may be replaced by Smother. Sure it's a littler more expensive (1B) but I think it hits 90% of the creatures in the actual legacy meta and its at instant speed. It would even improve the preboard MU against non-green aggro like Goblins or Merfolk.
But what about Deathmark if it is no longer in Main Deck ? Do we need it in the Sideboard? May be instead of Spinning Darkness. But I think Spinning Darkness is better especially against Non-Black Aggro with reach. And we also have Dystopia against green-based Aggro like Zoo. So what do u think do we need Deathmark at all ?

@ Hollywood: How do u think about Thorn of Amethyst in SB now after testing it ?

[pippo84]

I never played Deathmark, but immediately replaced it with Smother. Deathmark is too narrow and Smother hits almost everything.

Anyways another problem is that Abyssal Persecutor is the only "fatty" of the deck.. I know that with Jitte any creature is just so good, but without they just have 2 power..

And I am also sorry to say, but the deck needs a splash. Just too many artifacts and enchantments, planeswalkers that are almost GG against this deck.

[Raven]

My actual list looks like that:

// Lands
4 Wasteland
17 Swamp

// Creatures
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Dark Confidant
4 Abyssal Persecutor

// Spells
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Duress / Thoughtseize
4 Innocent Blood
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Bitterblossom
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
3 Smother

// Sideboard
SB: 3 Faerie Macabre
SB: 3 Spinning Darkness
SB: 3 Dystopia
SB: 3 Extirpate
SB: 3 Deathmark / Pithing Needle (not sure)

Not sure if I need DM anymore when I got Smother MB. May be Needle is the better choice.

This could be a compromise:

// Deck file for Magic Workstation

// Lands
4 Wasteland
17 Swamp

// Creatures
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Dark Confidant
3 Abyssal Persecutor
2 Faerie Macabre

// Spells
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Duress / Thoughtseize
4 Innocent Blood
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Bitterblossom
2 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Smother
1 Sword of Light and Shadow

// Sideboard
SB: 3 Spinning Darkness
SB: 3 Dystopia
SB: 3 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Deathmark
SB: 3 Extirpate

I'm also not sure about the choice between Duress and Thoughtseize, especially in the Ichorid MU Thoughtseize would be much better if u got Faerie Macabre also MB or in Hand.

[jrsthethird]

This belongs in this deck:

http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/tcg/products/scarsofmirrodin/1n5h5lvist_en.jpg

[sporenfrosch1411]

This belongs in this deck:

Any explanation why one would put this card in TheGate?
Looks like a REALLY bad choice to me. I see exactly no reason to play this.
Even Sign in Blood looks better to me....

[Bardo]

That's enough. Be civil or be gone.

[sporenfrosch1411]

@Bardo:
Can i ask what "bait taken and responded to means, or in general, why so many posts get deleted for "bait" ?



Anyway, back to topic:

I think TheGate mostly lacks 2 things at the moment:

Better creatures. I think something like a "black Tarmogoyf" is needed. I don't feel like Gatekeeper and Dark Confidant put enough pressure on the table. Don't get me wrong, Bob is awesome and i won't cut a single one but he just dies to everything and in most cases you don't want him in combat. I actually think about cutting a Gatekeeper and one more card and then add 2 Tombstalker. Yes, i am aware that drawing him with Confidant is an evil self-beating, but getting a Tombstalker on the table can be gamewinning. Any hey, correctly uses a Tombstalker costs 2 mana, so he kinda fits into "Black Tarmogoyf" - except he is 5/5 from the start, won't get chumped by some random walking dude and lowers the count of your opponents Tarmogoyf (by removing the cards from your graveyard).

More library-control. Well, it is black, so aside from Divining Top there won't be much that can be done about this...


Here is what i will test out next:

[4x] Dark Confidant
[3x] Abyssal Persecutor
[4x] Vampire Nighthawk
[3x] Gatekeeper of Malakir
[2x] Tombstalker

[4x] Duress
[4x] Innocent Blood
[3x] Deathmark
[3x] Cabal Therapy
[3x] Hymn to Tourach
[2x] Sensei's Divining Top

[2x] Umezawa's Jitte
[2x] Bitterblossom

[17x] Swamp
[4x] Wasteland

//Sideboard
[3x] Faerie Macabre
[3x] Extirpate
[3x] Dystopia
[3x] Spinning Darkness
[2x] Damnation
[1x] OPEN SLOT


As u can see, i did the following changes:
+2 Tombstalker (just hope you don't let Bob show him)
+2 Divining Top (helps your Bob and helps you)

-1 Persecutor (sorry, but i just don't want one in almost every starting hand, now that i added Tombstalker)
-1 Gatekeeper (He is good, but he is more of a tool, so i dont need the full playset of this tool)
-1 Umezawa's Jitte (jitte is so clumsy and slow, 2 are enough)
-1 Bitterblossom (Bitterblossom is so slow, sorry but as great as it is i dont want more than 2 of this)
Also don't forget that cutting down the numbers a bit but then adding Divining Top will slightly be in a balance, cause the Top finds me the cards that i cut down a bit.


What do you guys think?
(I will test it out this evening, hopefully with some good results)

[deadlock]

I dont want to spoil the fun, but if you add Top then you should also add Fetchlands. In which case you should also think about adding a splash colour.. just saying.

[sporenfrosch1411]

Actually you don't spoil the fun, you actually speak out what many might be thinking anyway ;)
But it's also to be considered that Fetchlands only "open" you to Stifle (and moon effects, which i don't see in my meta), while Duals "open" you to wasteland.
The question at this point (again) is, if we need another color. So far i tried out Green (Tarmogoyf, Maelstrom Pulse, Deed), Red (Terminate, Burn) and White (Stoneforge Mystic, Swords to Plowshares, Vindicate) and i kinda did not like it so much, that i would open myself to Wasteland and non-basic hate.

[deadlock]

If you choose to use a small green splash you could run 6 Fetch, 2 Bayou and 1 Forest. This would leave still leave you with 8 Swamps, which is more than enough to be stable against none-basic hate.

[pippo84]

If you choose to use a small green splash you could run 6 Fetch, 2 Bayou and 1 Forest. This would leave still leave you with 8 Swamps, which is more than enough to be stable against none-basic hate.

Exactly. This deck needs GREEN! But MonoBlack has mor style!

Well, adding Tarmogoyf, Sylvan Library, Krosan Grip and Maelstrom Pulse help the deck a lot!

And the manabase would be really stable anyways..

[sporenfrosch1411]

if you do a "small" green or white splash (the idea sounds nice to me)
What would you add?

Green: Tarmogoyf / Pernicious Deed / Maelstrom Pulse / something else
White: Swords to Plowshares / Vindicate / something else

And in what numbers would you add it, and what would you cut for it?
Consider please, that if you run "only" 6 fetchlands, 2 Bayou and maybe one basic Forest, that one would most likely not want to play more than 4 - 8 green cards, neither of which should require more than a single green mana :)

[Raven]

I'm not sure if its a good idea to add green or white. Sure you will get solutions for Walkers, Artifacts and Enchantments (annoying Lands) if u add Maelstrom Pulse / Vindicate, but you still need a ton of BB and BBB mana. So getting vulnerable to Wasteland, Stifle and Moon Effects is kind of dangerous. Furthermore u won't even have a solution for a Blood Moon, because u can't cast Pulse/Vindicate or Grip with moon on the board. And fetching for a Forest/Plains doesn't seems a solution to me because as u said u just want to do a "small splash". So u got 4-8 green/white cards and so the Forest/Plains would be a colorless manasource in most cases, which is also not good if I think about the hight amount of BB and BBB in the mana curve.

I also don't like SDT without Fetchlands. Maybe Crystal Ball could be better. I know its at 3 and not 1 like SDT but without fetchland SDT will devour a bunch of Mana.
For example: Play SDT (1 Mana) -> EOT: Look at the top 3 (1 Mana), if u dont find what u are looking for -> Draw -> Look again (1 Mana), maybe u find what u are looking for and tap SDT to draw it, then u are forced to draw SDT next turn and have to pay another 2 just to look at 3 cards and rearange them. So in the end you paid 5 Mana (3x looking, 2x playing) and "wasted" 1 draw step for SDT.
With Crystal Ball u pay 3 to play it and then 1 to scry 2 every turn and if u dont like the cards u are not forced to "look at your doom" because u are able to put them on bottom of the library.

@ sporenfrosch: In your modification u add 2 Tome Stalker and cut 1 Bitterblossom, 1 Jitte and 1 Persecutor. So u cut 3 win conditions and add 2 so effectivly u cut 1 and also add the chance of hurting yourself by revealing Stalker with Bob.
I'm not sure if we need more critters, because we are able to get rid of nearly every creature on the board and to kill the opponet with flying and trampling persecutor or faeries carrying Jitte or SoLaS.

Just my 2 copper...

[deadlock]

Nearly every deck out there has to deal with Stifle, 2 nonbebasic land doesnt make Wasteland very potent against this deck (its just not completly dead). One less black source should get migitated through Top.
I dont advocate the green splash, i just want to point out that the deck could get away with a small splash, as running ~8 basics is still a luxury compared to the rest of the format. On the other hand there is the "Solidarity" argument, which desperatly needs every land as solid as possible, as its mana engine is build upon these stable lands, which might also be applied to this deck - i dont know.
Prime candidates for the green splash are Goyf and Grip imo, not sure about Deed and Pulse - wouldnt they make the deck a tad to clumsy? Also depends on the bad matchups.

[sporenfrosch1411]

Why would Maelstrom Pulse (3mana, sorcery but hits all nonland permanents) make the deck more clumsy than Krosan Grip (3mana, instant, hits only enchantments and artifacts but has split/second) ?

[deadlock]

Sporenfrosch you are right, i applied blue deck logic here - where instants are much superior over sorcerys. Pulse just feeled clumsier than Grip so wrote it down without thinking to much.

[EssKay]

flames edited

Can I has my perma-ban now plz?

sure---frogboy

[sporenfrosch1411]

Come on guys, was this really neccessary? (I am not talking about the Admins, i am talking about Esskay/Hollywood).
General tip: Keep deck discussions on a non-personal level, and we all can live happily in Magic-Land :)

Back top topic (again):
I am currently thinking about cutting 3 Deathmark, adding 2 Ghastly Demise (and having an open slot to be filled, most likely with the 4th Hymn).
What do you think? Can Ghastly Demise be applied here? I am a bit concerned if you can fill the graveyard fast enough to let's say 3 or 4, with whicht you will be able to hit almost every played creature.

[pippo84]

Come on guys, was this really neccessary? (I am not talking about the Admins, i am talking about Esskay/Hollywood).
General tip: Keep deck discussions on a non-personal level, and we all can live happily in Magic-Land :)

Back top topic (again):
I am currently thinking about cutting 3 Deathmark, adding 2 Ghastly Demise (and having an open slot to be filled, most likely with the 4th Hymn).
What do you think? Can Ghastly Demise be applied here? I am a bit concerned if you can fill the graveyard fast enough to let's say 3 or 4, with whicht you will be able to hit almost every played creature.



Well, I thought about it before chosing Smother instead. Smother costs :1: more, but will do it's job always. Demise is a nice cards, but doen't hit black creatures (not so important) and needs to fuel the GY. It's not synergic with Spinning Darkness and this deck doesn't really fuel the GY a lot. Fetchlands would help.. Try it and see if you like it..

[annoiato]

Hi, I'm currently testing this deck.

Have you already discussed the use of Contamination as lock element?

[AlterEgo]

Hi, I'm currently testing this deck.

Have you already discussed the use of Contamination as lock element?

You know, there's a "Search Thread"-button near the top of this page... yes we have.

Anyway - some thoughts on Scars of Mirrodinr:
http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/tcg/products/scarsofmirrodin/3i86is2ol8_en.jpg
If only it were {B} + pay 2 life... On two mana there's Smother and Edict, which are superior.

http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/tcg/products/scarsofmirrodin/xe8c53omuf_en.jpg
Maybe danger of cool things, but with that much removal, why not just reuse your opponent's deceased creatures? Or what about a hasty Persecutor each turn, that removes itsellf? Seems at least worth a thought.

http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/tcg/products/scarsofmirrodin/z2sli8nnlc_en.jpg
Definitely a card to look at! It's cheaper than Disk or O-Stone, hits enchantments, artifacts AND planeswalkers, but vs. some targets it's a little slower.

http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/tcg/products/scarsofmirrodin/prequ7w40b_en.jpg
The Gate has quite some problems... but green creatures is none of them.

[Augustas]

I wanted to get back into magic for a long long time, and I was looking for some cheap decks. I've tried Elves Combo, Belcher and Dredge, because they are kinda ffordable. But these decks just didn't as much as I wanted to, and then I saw The Gate. For me as a beginner in MtG, this deck is amazing. I was training on MWS alot of time, and I was keep loosing a lot of matches. I don't know, sometimes I got unlucky, sometimes I was misplaying horribly,inapropriate sidedecking and such. And after tons of matches I finally got my final decklist that actually works for me.

4 Dark Confidant
4 Abyssal Persecutor
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir

4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Smother
3 Innocent Blood
3 Bitterblossom
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Light and Shadow

18 Swamp
1 Phyrexian Tower

4 Pithing Needle
3 Extirpate
3 Faerie Macabre
3 Death Mark
2 Tombstalker


About the lack of Wasteland - I just don't see the point to dish out 120$ on them. And actually, I hate them. I always struggle with them. Early, we need our mana to deal with whatever our opponent is throwing at us, and I when I finally was able to use Wasteland, it didn't matter too much. Obvious, it's the players preference, but I think I'll be able to live without them.

So yeah, I'm happy that I chose this deck, it's cool, it's kinda affordable, and the most important thing - you can actually learn how to play, how to abuse opponent's mistakes, how to think about every play you make. I love this aspect that this deck actually earns it's win, not just like "I counter everything and play goyf".

Alright, these were some thoughts of a newbie :D

[eq.firemind]

Augustad, your list looks a little light on mana. IMHO one or two swamps should make your deck better. I guess Sensei's Divining Top should go - you don't have shuffle effects to squeeze the full power out of Top.

[Augustas]

I tend to draw into bunch of lands all the time, and I wouldn't ever cut SDT. It's just too good. Makes you draw things that you need at the time. Well, it's just my way to play the Gate :]

[Seraph2k]

The 2 SDT are great even if you don't play shuffle effects;) My current list looks like Hollywoods last, but with the change that I cutted the 3 deathmarks and one bitterblossom (playing 2 of them) and adding 2 SDT and 2 Tombstalkers. They create the additional power the deck needed...

[bakofried]

Is Hollywood ever coming back to the thread?

[makochman]

Mimic Vat
Maybe danger of cool things, but with that much removal, why not just reuse your opponent's deceased creatures? Or what about a hasty Persecutor each turn, that removes itsellf? Seems at least worth a thought.

Ratchet Bomb
Definitely a card to look at! It's cheaper than Disk or O-Stone, hits enchantments, artifacts AND planeswalkers, but vs. some targets it's a little slower.


Mimic Vat seems win more. It's situational and very mana-intensive, so I think most of the time it's be better to just have another creature instead of the Vat. It would make more sense with Shriekmaw, but Shriekmaw hurts too much when you flip it with Bob.

Ratchet Bomb, on the other hand, was made for this deck. It is cheap and unlike Disk and O-Stone, it won't always kill your own men as well. It think it's a definite 3-of in the sideboard.

[Poxmaster]

I'm really disappointed about this deck, I have tried this with many cards like contamination, with many different equipments and disruption, and yet it still is too slow......merfolks, goblins, survival and Kitties eat it with french fries.

now i will change the mana base to improve the speed, sacrificing control.... in some way will have to improve this strategy

Greetings from Chile.


PD: Here, the metagame is very different to that seen around the world

PD: Sorry about my english

[Seraph2k]

If you fear decks like goblins and elves try contagion..... you will love it and your matchup will be a lot better...

[TheyCallMeTim]

I'm really disappointed about this deck, I have tried this with many cards like contamination, with many different equipments and disruption, and yet it still is too slow......merfolks, goblins, survival and Kitties eat it with french fries.

now i will change the mana base to improve the speed, sacrificing control.... in some way will have to improve this strategy

Greetings from Chile.


PD: Here, the metagame is very different to that seen around the world

PD: Sorry about my english

Try 4x Engineered Plague and 4x Extirpate in your sideboard. I have had minimal problems with those decks and only because of bad draws. I feel pretty confidant in these matches now since going up to 18 Swamps and 4 Wastelands, especially after sideboarding.

[Alexeezay]

-

[TheyCallMeTim]

I don't think either card has a place in this deck. The first few turns we want to control the match with disruption such as Innocent Blood, Duress and Hymn to Tourach followed by a threat like Abyssal Persecutor or a Vampire Nighthawk carrying Umezawa's Jitte. Dark Ritual is a relatively dead card both in early and late game while Infernal Contract is simply redundant next to Dark Confidant, who provides more cards at a lower cost.

[Augustas]

Gonna build the gate for fun soon because I dont wanna waste my playset japanese limited dark rituals ;)
What do you think of Infernal Contract as card draw? it fills up the hand again when u ran out of gas really good...
I would side it out against decks like Zoo for obvious reasons..

uh, the point is, it hardly every runs out of gas, unless you get countered out or everything you play catches removal. That's the main difference - I think - between The Gate and Sui Black.

About dissapointment, yeah, I lost a lot with it, but well, it's not a tier 1 deck and it actually requires alot in order to be succesful... I invested in it all the money I had and I don't regret it at all :]

[Poxmaster]

Try 4x Engineered Plague and 4x Extirpate in your sideboard. I have had minimal problems with those decks and only because of bad draws. I feel pretty confidant in these matches now since going up to 18 Swamps and 4 Wastelands, especially after sideboarding.

my side is:
2 Dystopia
4 extirpate
3 gate to Phyrexia
3 pitting needle
3 Spinning darkness

gate to phyrexia is very cool + Bitter blossom against equipments and MUD, but enchanments still are really problematic
next tuesday there's a tournament i will try to post results and others

[TheyCallMeTim]

my side is:
2 Dystopia
4 extirpate
3 gate to Phyrexia
3 pitting needle
3 Spinning darkness

gate to phyrexia is very cool + Bitter blossom against equipments and MUD, but enchanments still are really problematic
next tuesday there's a tournament i will try to post results and others

What's the plan against Merfolk? -3 Dark Confidant, -3 Deathmark for Pithing Needle and Spinning Darkness doesn't seem that strong when they have 2 Lords out or a leveled Coralhelm Commander.

[AlterEgo]

but enchanments still are really problematic

Needs more Ratchet Bombs!

[bakofried]

I fully support the testing of Ratchet Bombs.

[Augustas]

I fully support the testing of Ratchet Bombs.

Maindeck or SB? I'm afraid that it might make the deck even more slow than it is now, because we would need to cut answer-now cards. I don't know.. But I like Ratchet Bomb too, I like it aalot.

[bakofried]

I do think we need to find a way to stuff McFae back in the main, as Vengevival is still big (unless I'm mistaken). Furthermore, a way to deal with 'Folk would also be a good plan. Any ideas?

[TheyCallMeTim]

I do think we need to find a way to stuff McFae back in the main, as Vengevival is still big (unless I'm mistaken). Furthermore, a way to deal with 'Folk would also be a good plan. Any ideas?

I'm not too concerned about either of these matchups with Extirpate and Engineered Plague in the SB. See post #820.

[annoiato]

How to win against Pinter/Mola + Imperial Recruiter + Auriok Salvagers?

Game 1: I think the match is favorable only if we open a good "control" hand, otherwise the match is unfavorable.

Game 2/3: Side in [4x] Pithing Needle (against Grindstone and Auriok), [3x] Extirpate -> Side out [2x] Faerie Macabre, [3x] Umezawa's Jitte, [2x] Bitterblossom.

Did I sideboard correctly?


My list:

[4x] Abyssal Persecutor
[4x] Gatekeeper of Malakir
[4x] Dark Confidant
[4x] Vampire Nighthawk
[2x] Faerie Macabre

[4x] Duress
[4x] Innocent Blood
[3x] Cabal Therapy
[4x] Hymn to Tourach

[3x] Umezawa's Jitte
[3x] Bitterblossom

[17x] Swamp
[4x] Wasteland

//Sideboard

[3x] Spinning Darkness
[2x] Faerie Macabre
[3x] Extirpate
[3x] Dystopia
[4x] Pithing Needle

[Giggioz]

What's the plan against Merfolk? -3 Dark Confidant, -3 Deathmark for Pithing Needle and Spinning Darkness doesn't seem that strong when they have 2 Lords out or a leveled Coralhelm Commander.

Hi,

i tried a lot of different configuration against merfolk but none seems working fine. They are simply too fast for us (like goblin and somehow zoo).

I play with 3 pithing needle maindeck (instead death mark, especially in these days of suvival of the fittest :P) and still doesn't help a lot.

I tried 4x engineered plague but it's quite poor (they have usually 2 lords on the board and our sacrifical effects let them choose Curse Catcher, Adept or Mutavault...)
I tried 4x Spinning Darkness but for the same reason they are not so effective.
I really didn't find a good answer to it.

My last attempts concerned 3x Damnation and 3x Smother:
-Damnation is slow but with a lot of discard effects you can hope to cast it without encurring in counterspells
-Smother allows us to target lords, gaining time to casts persecutor, vampire or damnation

With this configuration the matchup is still quite hard, especially if they play standstill.
These two cards are useful against zoo and goblin, other two difficult matchups for us.

For reference here my sideboard

4x extirpate (vengevine anyone?)
4x perish (zoo, survival, elves, progenitus, bant...)
3x smother (zoo, goblin, merfolk)
3x damnation (zoo, goblin, merfolk)
1x hymn to tourach (to complete the 4x)

So, this is the plan:
-4 dark confidant
-3 hym to tourach
+3 damnation
+3 smother
+1 extirpate

I side in 1 extirpate instead keeping 1 dark confidant because this is an option to see the opponent's hand before casting damnation.
If you have a better idea how to beat merfolk, then please, post it!

Any comments?

[TheyCallMeTim]

Have you tried a combination of Engineered Plague and Spinning Darkness at the same time? I usually board out 4 Dark Confidants, 3 Deathmarks and perhaps 1 Duress. I destroyed a 16 Lord build running Kira, Great Glass-spinner with this configuration. Of course, the other trick employed here is to stay ahead in card advantage. Use discard liberally, naming Standstill or Silvergill Adept with blind Cabal Therapys.

[annoiato]

Have you tried a combination of Engineered Plague and Spinning Darkness at the same time? I usually board out 4 Dark Confidants, 3 Deathmarks and perhaps 1 Duress.


Against Merfolk and Goblin:

IN: 4x Pithing Needle and 3x Spinning Darkness
OUT: 4x Duress and 3x Death Mark

I think Spinning Darkness >> Engineered Plague becouse it is usefull also against zoo.

I don't think we can have both Spinning Darkness and Engineered Plague in sideboard.

[annoiato]

In the following jpg you can see:
- my list (as for that one on the 1st page except for 3x Deathmark that has been modified in 1x Hymn + 2x Faerie Macabre)
- my sideboard and how do I sideboard against others deck

http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/6905/thegate.gif

[TheyCallMeTim]

Perhaps this is why you stuggle so much against Merfolk? One Engineered Plague on the board and 3 Lords are all in Spinning range. Does Pithing Needle seem to really help the matchup? Do you win every time it lands?

[TheyCallMeTim]

I played in a local 20 man tounament this weekend and piloted the Gate to a top 4 finish. One of my matches included Merfolk which I was able to edge out 2 - 0.

[Darkness]

I am going to finalize my version of The Gate today. Only thing I've been running an issue is the sideboard card dystopia vs perish. With all the new survival decks wouldn't perish be faster.

[Augustas]

I had some thoughts, wanted to try it out, and the build actually works for me :]

15 Swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yagwmoth
4 Mishra's Factory

3x Abyssal Persecutor
4x Vampire Nighthawk
4x Gatekeeper of Malakir
4x Dark Confidant

4x Innocent Blood
3x Bitterblossom
3x Ratchet Bomb
3x Thoughtseize
3x Cabal Therapy
3x Hymn to Tourach
2x Umezawa's Jitte
2x Sensei's Divining Top
2x Smother

The main thing I wanted to include was Ratchet Bombs and Mishra's Factories. Ratchet Bomb is an answer to multiple problems on the field. Factory helps us to keep our lifetotal a bit higher. And Thoughtseize... well, it's personal prefference. So yeah, that's what I'm going to play from now on :]

[kubalonek]

Lack of Wasteland seems to be not convincing. It is too powerful and versatile card to be omitted.

[sporenfrosch1411]

Has anyone tested TheGate against GW, UG, Ooze or UGW Survival?
In theory having Deathmarks and so much removal seems nice....but is it fast enough?

[Seraph2k]

Preboard you will have no answer to his combo. Preboard you can play Faeries and Extirpate and hope for the lucky draw:(

[bakofried]

Dystopia is most likely stronger against Survival variants, due to the fact that it can actually take out survival. Otherwise, you'll be dead to the recurring Vengevines.

[Joe_C]

Necro.

I have a fondness for mono colored decks. I play death and taxes, and have piloted dragon stompy and goblins to tournament success. I wanted to try something different and I remember seeing this deck on here months ago, so I tossed it together.

My first impressions are very pleasing. The "large" amount of discard is very appealing to me. Cabal therapy is a VERY skill testing card (I play ichorid often as well and recognize therapy to be a powerhouse". Proper use of discard is very important for this deck to win the "small game" during the first few turns. I'm looking to weigh more options for the deck, currently I am playing the list from the OP with -1 wasteland +1 swamp.

With survive-vine getting the axe, how are everyone's thoughts on this deck?

I look at this deck as almost the "opposite" of death and taxes(which rules the long game with mangara tricks, the early game with mana denial and vialing in creatures, and beats with smaller equipped creatures to win), The Gate needs to command the first 3 turns to be the "most" effective. The similarity these two decks share is that there are meta choices that you need to make with your maindeck and sb before getting into a tournament. A few cards can change much with both decks. Fine tuning the maindeck and knowing what is available for the sb to help in matchups you are likely to face is very important for these decks to do well.

I intend to take this to some tournaments during 2011. I had to take a hiatus from magic since I had a baby girl this summer and she is still quite the handful and I can't leave my wife home alone for too long and not feel guilty about it. But I am indeed getting back out there during the new year

[Joe_C]

After all the discussion that went on in this thread, people have just dropped it? I don't think this is a poor choice of deck at all. I'm working with this list:

18 swamp
4 wasteland

4 dark confidant
4 abyssal persecutor
4 gatekeeper of malakir
4 vampire nighthawk
2 bitterblossom
3 umezawa's jitte

3 cabal therapy
4 duress
4 hymn to tourach
4 innocent blood
3 deathmark

Sb

3 faerie macabre
3 spinning darkness
3 soul spike
3 dystopia
3 vendetta

Maxed out hymn and need 4 duress to pull those pesky planeswalkers out of the opponents hand.

And yes. It is 61 cards. 18 swamp feels right and 4 wastelands have stolen me games in testing

[bakofried]

I'm open to start testing again. Hopefully the meta will be less hostile this time around.

[TheSocMethod]

I like the core of your list Joe_C. My list is similar, but I'm curious about a few of your card choices.

Why Duress over Thoughtseize or Inquisition of Kozalek? It seems to me that against a great deal of the widely played decks you're going to want to snag a creature from them on the first turn. I realize the 2 life from thoughtseize adds up with our bob and BB triggers, so why not run Inquisition MD and have Duress in the board to further shore up our storm matchup.

Why only two Bitterblossoms? Bitterblossom, to me, is the heart of this deck. Persecutor may be a house, but I find he's very fragile--BB is much harder to deal with. I've won three times as many games on the back of BB than with persecutor. With BB and an active Jitte, it's GG, so why not give ourselves the best chance to find our best card.

That leads me to the lack of Dark Ritual. This deck needs to get off to a fast start, and with the best CA engine in the game on our side, the pros to running rituals far outweigh the con of ripping a dead draw late game. This will also allow you to cut a swamp or two. Imagine ritual, thoughtseize, bob go. Or ritual, nighthawk, go. Or ritual, inquisition, hymn go. Or ritual, thoughtseize, bitterblossom go. Not to mention turn two persecutor. Those starts are extremely difficult to deal with (especially when you snag their answer for them) and happen more often than one would think. Auto four-of in my mind.

And finally, I know this is beating a dead horse, but are we seriously still talking about running deathmark? Really? I'm not trying to flame anyone at all, but I wouldn't even run that in the board. It's a dead card against two of the most popular decks, fish and gobos, and against zoo, bant aggro, C-top bant, elves combo, etc, I'd rather have Perish anyway (which I run in the board). That slot would be better served by diabolic edict (which I like over innocent blood anyway because of the instant speed) or more discard spells.

Finally, in my testing I'm finding our biggest problem is with lack of utility removal spells. We have no way to deal with resolved equipment/artifacts/enchantments that I'm aware of. SoLS and Jitte (when I can't find my own) make us cry. Anyone have any ideas other than not letting them hit the board in the first place or pithing needles? Without the ability to blow up resolved enchantments/artifacts, it seems like we're better off splashing white for vindicate, which leads to throwing in swords, which leads to deadguy ale... (which is what I currently run in tournaments anyway...) I'm rambling now so I'll stop. Keep this discussion going though Joe_C because this feels like a deck than can be really solid.

[AlterEgo]

Why Duress over Thoughtseize or Inquisition of Kozalek? It seems to me that against a great deal of the widely played decks you're going to want to snag a creature from them on the first turn. I realize the 2 life from thoughtseize adds up with our bob and BB triggers, so why not run Inquisition MD and have Duress in the board to further shore up our storm matchup.

Because most creatures can be handled after they enter the battlefield. Things like Natural Order, Ad Nauseam and especially Humility are far more dangerous - Inquisition doesn't hit those.
Although I must admit, I currently play a 2/2 split aof Duress and Inquisition alongside 3 Hymns and 2 Therapy - being able to discard utility creatures (Trinket, Bob, Knight) or the occasional Goyf is fair.


Why only two Bitterblossoms? Bitterblossom, to me, is the heart of this deck. Persecutor may be a house, but I find he's very fragile--BB is much harder to deal with. I've won three times as many games on the back of BB than with persecutor. With BB and an active Jitte, it's GG, so why not give ourselves the best chance to find our best card.
Here I agree, 2x Blossoms is too few, but imho 4 is too much. I play three and am happy with that.


That leads me to the lack of Dark Ritual. This deck needs to get off to a fast start, and with the best CA engine in the game on our side, the pros to running rituals far outweigh the con of ripping a dead draw late game. This will also allow you to cut a swamp or two. Imagine ritual, thoughtseize, bob go. Or ritual, nighthawk, go. Or ritual, inquisition, hymn go. Or ritual, thoughtseize, bitterblossom go. Not to mention turn two persecutor. Those starts are extremely difficult to deal with (especially when you snag their answer for them) and happen more often than one would think. Auto four-of in my mind.

And finally, I know this is beating a dead horse, but are we seriously still talking about running deathmark? Really? I'm not trying to flame anyone at all, but I wouldn't even run that in the board. It's a dead card against two of the most popular decks, fish and gobos, and against zoo, bant aggro, C-top bant, elves combo, etc, I'd rather have Perish anyway (which I run in the board). That slot would be better served by diabolic edict (which I like over innocent blood anyway because of the instant speed) or more discard spells.

Please read the thread, sir.

Question: Suppose, you're on the draw - what do you do against a turn one Goblin Lackey?
Innocent Blood, Vendetta and Disfigure - these are the three best cc1 black removals available, that handle him. Plus Deathmark (which I'm not that fond of, too), they give a rather poor choice of options.

I am now testing with Disfigure - in theory, it's an okay choice. It removes most of the early troublemakers and serves as a valuable combat trick later.



Finally, in my testing I'm finding our biggest problem is with lack of utility removal spells. We have no way to deal with resolved equipment/artifacts/enchantments that I'm aware of. SoLS and Jitte (when I can't find my own) make us cry. Anyone have any ideas other than not letting them hit the board in the first place or pithing needles? Without the ability to blow up resolved enchantments/artifacts, it seems like we're better off splashing white for vindicate, which leads to throwing in swords, which leads to deadguy ale... (which is what I currently run in tournaments anyway...) I'm rambling now so I'll stop. Keep this discussion going though Joe_C because this feels like a deck than can be really solid.
That's the problem with mono black. You get a stable mana base for the price of being unable to handle artifacts and enchantments. Live with it, or play Deadguy.

[Joe_C]

Mono black lacks answers to permanents aside from creatures, which we know. That's why I max out hymn, duress(for the fact that it takes planeswalkers and doesn't make me lose 2 life), it doesn't take creatures, but we have SO many ways to deal with creatures, and 3 therapy(which is a BOMB if you name properly). Therapy is a HUGE game knowledge testing card. If you know your stuff, it can be devastating. And even more damaging with bitterblossom.

Deathmark is indeed a questionable slot, but if you read the opening post, you will see all of the creatures that is deals with for just 1 mana. It can't be spell snared, and can be cast turn 2 without walking into daze as long as you played another land.

Bitterblossom is great, I admit, but the first thing I would drop from my list would be a discard spell, which honestly I think is stronger.

[FieryBalrog]

I built the deck because a friend was kind enough to give me 4 abyssal persecutors, and I got 4 bitterblossoms from another friend who quit magic a while ago, and I had all the other cards, but I've been playing it only on MWS because I rarely have the time to go out and play plus a lack of locations/events. So not much to report :p

Edit: the exact list I run:

Creatures - 16
4 Abyssal Persecutor
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Dark Confidant

Spells - 23
2 Duress
2 Inquisition of Kozilek (maybe 2 more Duress instead?)
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Innocent Blood
3 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Bitterblossom
3 Smother

Lands - 21
17 Swamp
4 Wasteland

I really like Bitterblossom, it's good in a surprising variety of ways. The deck runs a lot of life loss and I've once or twice died to my own Confidant + BB in a game I had reasonably under control. I like Smother over Deathmark simply because the flexibility and instant speed is worth it to me over the tempo and I can't run Snuff Out or Vendetta due to the huge life loss. I also run into a lot of black creatures but maybe I won't if I go to an actual tourney. I still wouldn't take the life loss though.

I'm not that happy with 4 Wasteland and might move down to 3. Not having BB because of a great hand with swamp + wasteland only or not having BBB for malakir really sucks, and this deck doesn't really exploit Wasteland that well, I usually want the lands so I can reach my own 3 and 4 drops. I might even try just using 19 swamps + 2 chrome mox or something because the acceleration might be worth it.

[bakofried]

I think something needs to made clear, and that is that this deck is not about acceleration. All of you, if you haven't already read them, need to read Hollywood's tournament reports. One of the founding principles of the deck is that it is a mono-coloured deck with one of the most rock-steady manabases around; dark rit. and chrome mox weaken not only the manabase, but the draws as well. Furthermore, playing Bob is not a reason to run Dark Rit. Bob is stronger, and nets you better cards, without dark ritual. Don't even touch mox.

As for Deathmark, well, that's a risk you take. If Merf's are big, then blue is big, if blue is big, you have targets for Deathmark and they're warranted in the main. If you're so worried about Gobs, run Vendetta or Disfigure as a 3-of in the side to deal with them - the lifeloss you'll end up taking from them is minimal (especially when your targets will often be Lackey, Piledriver, and Warchief) and they deal with everything you're worried about. Remember, they're not Merfolk; decent lord effects are few and far between for them.

I like Joe's 61 card list. It may be too early to tell, but I'm getting manascrewed far less in goldfishing than I did in the past.

[Joe_C]

@bakofried: I think you are confused on deathmark, it targets white or green creatures, it isn't so hot against merfolk. I may play this at a tournament in a few weeks. I expect merfolk to be big, so likely I will swap out the deathmarks for smother, or I may just keep them, since I also expect to see zoo in numbers as well. Its definitely a card that just shouldn't be there in some game 1's but when you get a target for deathmark, there really isn't anything better for the cc. Green and white creatures are still very very common.

[bakofried]

I know exactly what Deathmark does. What I mean is this: Merfolk, in itself, is a meta deck (much like ours) that is designed to prey on blue-based decks, specifically CounterTop and thresh variants. You'll see Merfolk doing well when the meta has a strong tendency towards blue decks. And when blue (of the non-merfolk variety) is there, they will typically be fronting green (and/or white) creatures to run into the red zone. Ergo, if merfolk has enough targets to do well, then so do you.

[FieryBalrog]

And if Merfolk is enough of the meta, then Deathmark is still mediocre maindeck and can be sideboarded in for the relevant Bant/Countertop decks. Gaming against Bant/Countertop also means more Goblins. The logic is pretty ass-backwards.

[bakofried]

But wait! If tribal is enough of the meta, Zoo will be good, and if Zoo is good, Combo will be good, and...we should probably stop the thought train there. If Merfolk is as bad as it was immediately prior to the ban, then yes, Deathmark is a poor choice. Otherwise, I'd still MD Deathmark. Furthermore, I don't think Smother fits the same position, as it does sit higher on the curve than DM. You'd want 1-mana removal, and the most versatile card for that is probably Vendetta.

[Joe_C]

Hmm good point bakofried. I think I will -3 deathmark, +2 vendetta, +1 bitterblossom.

My sb is completely different now:

4 faerie macabre
3 dystopia
4 spinning darkness
3 sadistic sacrament
1 cabal therapy

[Augustas]

or your can just simply go to some tournaments and see what does good and what doesn't. For one mana you have innocent blood and IMO it is enough for 1 cc removal spot. I've played smother in every tournament I went to and it indeed did good. We have enough cards with a drawback and Smother atleast can hit 95% of the creatures played in legacy. What you gonna do with that Vendetta against 5/6 Goyf or something like a 7/7 KotR? Yes, they both can be hit with a Deathmark, but Deathmark can't hit blue lords and Lackey. So talking about removal spots, IMO 3 Smother/4 Innocent Blood or vice-versa is the right choice, atleast this set up was working well for me.

[Joe_C]

The big thing is the removal we really want is preferably 1cc. Vendetta hits everything, but more importantly is answers a turn 1 lackey or a lord that is joining 2 other merfolk. In these situations, the initial life loss is small compared to what would ensue if the creatures are allowed to stay in play. In the long game we would hopefully have better options than playing vendetta on a goyf or kotr and take the hit for a large amount of damage. Late game we could hope to just block with faerie tokens and swing with nighthawk etc etc.

This deck NEEDS to command the first few turns with discard and removal in order to have a prayer at winning. I want to see a hand that has swamp,swamp, duress, innocent blood, hymn, confidant, bitterblossom. That there is pretty much going to get us way ahead by raping their hand and if they land a turn 1 creature, it's going bye bye most likely.

[Joe_C]

I did some testing with the -3 deathmark,+2 vendetta, +1 bitterblossom. Vendetta won me a game vs aggro elves, allowing me to nail priest of titania and keep him at 2 meager 1/1's which he swung into me with(with me having a lone confidant in play) just to have me drop and equip jitte following turn and kill both his creatures. The third bitterblossom is proving nice as well. Allowing me to sit back and generate a steady flow of threats. Amazingly in all the games I have played, I haven't won with Persecutor. I think he is needed since he is a flying monster, I had a game where I flipped 3 of them to confidant. That was real scary. I still managed to win that

[sporenfrosch1411]

Never forget that in Legacy the lowest curve probably has the best chances to win against heavy-blue based decks. Yes, Smother is the Superiour choice judging from what it can handle, but do not underestimate CC2 in today's Legacy.
Spell Snare, Spell Pierce, Counterbalance are just some examples that beg you to play cc1 removal. But i have to agree, if your Meta is heavy on Merfolk and Goblins, probably maindecking smother will make it easier to win.

I am currently in conflict with the Persecutor's. Yes, they win the game and are super awesome game winning and i love 'em, but having a clumsy cc4 monster in your opening hand - it just sucks and with about 40% chance, it happens way too often. If we cut Persecutor's down to 3, i think it will be enough. Don't forget, that with zero acceleration, we will most likely play Persecutor on Turn 5 anyway (this includes the thought that you just don't drop a land every turn and is somewhat optimistic, that with 22 Lands you will only miss a single land drop) so this makes up for 7 starting cards + 5 cards (at least) drawn. In the course of 13 cards, we still should be able to draw out a Persecutor, not?

[hyc8028]

I am a big fan of Persecutor. Every time I land Persecutor onto the battlefield, I win. He is usually the biggest dude on the table. I had many opponent scoop on Persecutor and Jitte.

[TheSleeper]

I haven't read the middle (20?) pages of this thread, just coming back to it. Anyways, to the question of a good 1-cost removal. I have the answer for you all... Swords to Plowshares! Yes the best removal every printed can be yours to play. This is Legacy, you can splash very easily. I don't want to hear the lame 'but my opponent could wasteland me' arguments. Check back over which decks have won major tournaments. Plenty of three-colour decks (CB Bant, Zoo) have survived Wasteland. Plenty of Goblins (green splash, black splash, both), same for Merfolk (Black/White). People splash and the negative of being denied a dual-land is offset in a huge way by the functionality another colour can grant you. So I hope you don't dismiss this idea based purely on the fear of Wasteland.

Next point, just because you splash white in The Gate doesn't mean its automatically Deadguy Ale (Dark Confidant epitomizes that deck, something I'm not advocating). Take the below list for example. Its very "Gate" but with StP instead of horrible narrow removal. Best part? You get another out to Abyssal Persecutor and gain 6 life in the process (or can farm him if desperate for life).

// Lands
10 [R] Swamp (2)
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
4 [U] Scrubland
4 [ZEN] Marsh Flats

// Creatures
3 [FUT] Tombstalker
4 [ZEN] Gatekeeper of Malakir
3 [WWK] Abyssal Persecutor
3 [ZEN] Vampire Nighthawk
3 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic

// Spells
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [MOR] Bitterblossom
3 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (1)
1 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
4 [AT] Swords to Plowshares


I've gone ahead and added Stoneforge Mystic as well. That might be pushing the splash further than you want, I'm just throwing it out there. It gives card advantage and helps get online our best engine: Bitterblossom+Jitte. Equipping SoFi to a Faerie can randomnly blow out Merfolk & Goblins too.

This list isn't highly-tuned, more listed as an injection for inspiration. You have a number of game plans: early discard for disruption, then finish with A) BB+Jitte B) Persecutor or C) Tombstalker. 3 TS may be a little high, but I found it was fine in initial testing.

Added advantage of splash is you can tailor your SB better to deal with other matchups, e.g. Absolute Law, Vindicate, etc but that goes without saying. Any comments appreciated!

[FieryBalrog]

I don't like dropping Confidant for Tombstalker even though the deck's curve is rather high.

I do like the idea of the White splash, for both STP and SF Mystic, as equipment is huge from my play experience. I like that we can drop wasteland too as wasteland doesn't seem to do that much in this deck. You very much need to hit your own land drops, you really want double and triple black, you only have 21-22 lands, and you really can't take big advantage of land-shorting the other guy for a couple of turns early on.

Probably will be bringing my monoblack list to a tournament this Friday, we'll see how it goes.

[sporenfrosch1411]

I am a big fan of Persecutor. Every time I land Persecutor onto the battlefield, I win. He is usually the biggest dude on the table. I had many opponent scoop on Persecutor and Jitte.

Don't get me wrong, i also see and value the fact that correctly played, Persecutor mostly is on for a fast finish BUT the point i was adressing is, whether we really need 4 considering that his high cost gives you a 40% chance of having a clumsy starting hand. You get my direction? The Gate, and this is well discussed i think, needs to control turn 1 to 3, so i want to minimize the clumsiness.
The question is, if we cut down to 3 Persecutor, we will most likely still have drawn him by turn 5 ( 7+5 = 12 cards drawn until then at minimum), which tends to be the turn he can be played looking at the fact that even with 22 lands we won't hit a landdrop every single turn.

At the moment, my list still has 4 Persecutors in it, and at the cost of repeating myself, i really like him and value him, but i dislike clumsy starting hands even more.


@Sleeper:
There is a seperate thread for B/W-Stuff, TheGate is mono black (look at Hollywood's posts for reference why) and i agree that it should stay mono black for its consistency. Opening for stifle, mooning and wasteland to be able to play Stoneforge Mystic -> that is something i would not want to do anyway. If you feel like you need more equip, just get in a third Jitte :)

[Augustas]

I ran three Percies from the beginning and never missed the 4th one.

Another thing I'm considering is the 4th Bitterblossom or the 4th Hymn to Tourach. Blossom can meet hate in g2 or can just simply make you lose against Zoo and Hymn is not the card you would like to see in a topdeck mode.

[AlterEgo]

The question is, if we cut down to 3 Persecutor, we will most likely still have drawn him by turn 5 ( 7+5 = 12 cards drawn until then at minimum), which tends to be the turn he can be played looking at the fact that even with 22 lands we won't hit a landdrop every single turn.


Ever since last year's Nationals, when I needed more space in the main for my newly acquired Hymns, I've been playing The Gate with 3x Percy. I've never regretted it so far.

[Kolhell]

I've tried digging through this thread but as of yet been unable to find an answer to this, so here goes: why all the hate for the white splash? I mean, the two things black DOES NOT handle well are enchantments and artifacts, so as far as I'm concerned splashing white for vindicate seems like a rather obvious call. All of a sudden your deck is capable of blasting vials, SoFI, additional lands, CHALICE (srsly don't you guys occasionally wish you could call therapy on something else? or do you just pray that by playing a non-DtB the opponent won't know what number to drop it on?), etc, let alone the fact that StP is more chock full of win than metaphors can describe. The only downside I can spot is that increasing the targeted removal decreases the indirect removal, but I'm sure somebody smarter than I am would be capable of rebalancing the deck. (and I swear if I get something less thought-provoking than "stifle" in response I will drive to your house and rape your cat.)



Cutting wastelands is just dumb. Not only is it damn near the best card ever, but disruption is all about waiting for your opponent to peter out before making your move and doing anything you can to assist him doing so. Not running wasteland is tantamount to running dark rit or increasing the land count - it's just missing the point.

3x perc seems to be an obvious choice to me, but once again I'm going to leave that argument for people who aren't hungover.

And where did Hollywood go? Did he just punch out of this thread, or should I take this to mean that he doesn't think this deck is competitive in the current meta?

[FieryBalrog]

Cutting wastelands is just dumb. Not only is it damn near the best card ever, but disruption is all about waiting for your opponent to peter out before making your move and doing anything you can to assist him doing so. Not running wasteland is tantamount to running dark rit or increasing the land count - it's just missing the point.

Not every deck wants Wasteland. There are sometimes good reasons not to run it. Yes, it's an automatic include UNLESS you have such solid reasons, or think you have them and want to test it out.

Having a fetish for the card is rather missing the point, I think.

[Kolhell]

Not every deck wants Wasteland. There are sometimes good reasons not to run it. Yes, it's an automatic include UNLESS you have such solid reasons, or think you have them and want to test it out.

Having a fetish for the card is rather missing the point, I think.

Not reading past any perceived fetish misses the point further :)

See the second clause of that sentence: this deck is control at its heart, which by definition means that your mana (and therefore lands) are primarily purposed to stalling out your opponent, which makes wasteland an imperative 4-of. Get it? For instance, having a more stable mana base helps you make land drops every turn, but that's a rather low priority to the mindset of this deck (who cares if you drop a perc on turn 4, or even 5, as long as you keep blasting hymn/therapy/duress at your opponent's skull?)



edit: omfg this board has emoticons disabled by default. I'm suddenly filled with an emotion I can only describe as love.



edit^2: Maybe I'm being too circumlocuitous: if your playstyle is geared towards making land drops and consistency then you should probably just build a Sui deck. Otherwise, wasteland is a superb tool for slowing your opponent down, which allows you to answer his threats as they come rather than always playing catch-up.

[TheSleeper]

I agree that it should stay mono black for its consistency. Opening for stifle, mooning and wasteland to be able to play Stoneforge Mystic -> that is something i would not want to do anyway. If you feel like you need more equip, just get in a third Jitte :)

Splashing does not cause deck-crushing inconsistencies. Look at this recent SCG Top 8 (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t[C1]=3&start_date=2011-01-09&end_date=2011-01-09&city=Kansas+City). Decks include Goblins (RG), Merfolk (UB), Goblins (RB), DnT (WG), Rock (GWB), Deadguy (BW), NO Bant (WUG), Affinity. They are all multicolour decks, half of them splashing and what do you know - they are doing well. In the face of the oh-so-scary dreaded Stifle, Wasteland and Blood Moon, they are still flourishing. This deck should be less susceptible than those decks anyways. Its a very light splash, and you can run a suite of discard. Simply strip away stifle/moon and don't walk blindly into it. If you don't have access to the duals or whatever then fair enough, but it would be an inferior build IMO.

[bakofried]

How about this? Go post in another thread if you want to play B/W Aggro Midrange. Seriously. It is a completely different deck. The Gate is an attempt to build Mono-Black right in Legacy - which in fact means eschewing white. And while it may not be Deadguy, it is "more" Deadguy than Gate. And to answer another's question, he left the thread because of this. It is a black deck we are developing and testing, even if it turns out to be a failed attempt.

On another note, I'm willing to test Percy as a 3-of, shaving the list back down to 60 cards.

[UberNewHacks]

I think that just because decks can win against wasteland doesn't mean it doesn't have a hindering effect, and not having to worry about wasteland makes life a lot easier (which is why he chose mono). Also, I think that if the deck development turns Gate from 4 to 3 but gets better you are still moving forward even if you are going farther away from the original (but evidently not superior) concept. Just saying.

[Kolhell]

How about this? Go post in another thread if you want to play B/W Aggro Midrange. Seriously. It is a completely different deck. The Gate is an attempt to build Mono-Black right in Legacy - which in fact means eschewing white. And while it may not be Deadguy, it is "more" Deadguy than Gate. And to answer another's question, he left the thread because of this. It is a black deck we are developing and testing, even if it turns out to be a failed attempt.

So... basically you answered, "Why not splash?" with, "Because I said so?" :/ I'm not sure when things took such a personal turn, but I don't particularly appreciate being spoken to as if I'm a child.



Anyway, after a little dicking around I agree that stoneforge mystic is pretty garbage in here (I mean, if you want tutors why not just feed faeries to Diabolic Intent?) There are MUCH better things you could be doing with that two mana than getting a fast jitte. Rather, that's unless you're facing something tribal... but it would still feel like a SB card to me.

@UberNewHacks
Thank you for your response, and I suppose I can see the consistency argument. I mean, if you're going to open yourself up to wastelands and the like then you should be gaining something more powerful in return, which white may not quite be able to bring to the table. Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that StP isn't uber enough for this deck: I'm saying that perhaps black is doing a just fine job of it on it's own without the help. Or perhaps not. Whatever. I still adore blasting CBs and what-have-yous with Vindicate :)

[bakofried]

I wasn't speaking to you earlier in the post. You see, when discussing the white splash, it changes the deck from the Gate into something else. It may be similar, but it's not The Gate. I can admit that it's a matter of perspective - to me, one of the pillars of the deck is that it is Mono-Black. So I apologize if I am taking it too personally, but it does change the nature of the deck when you splash, and changes it enough to be considered a separate, albeit very similar deck. Again, I apologize for any offense, but I still feel justified in my perspective.

[Kolhell]

Word. Unfortunately the other Bw decks either a) suck or b) are tempo based, lol.

[AlterEgo]

Word. Unfortunately the other Bw decks either a) suck or b) are tempo based, lol.

Somewhere in New and Developmental there's a thread called "Red Gate". Nobody ever said, that The Gate with a splash would be complete garbage, so you could open a "White Gate", "Green Gate" and/or "Watergate" thread...

[sporenfrosch1411]

Don't forget about Stargate.....

[Gui]

Most decks around here hold all splash versions at the same thread. I believe that happens because discussing the same core deck at different threads is kinda counter productive, and splash is something personal. Although it's a thin line between what is :w: splash and what is Deadguy, if the deck share the same core of The Gate, I don't see how it would be bad to be discussed here.

That said, I don't think The Gate needs a splash to deal with aggro, i.e. add StP, it already have a lot of good cards to deal with aggro. If you are really opening the gate for wastelands and stifles, at least do that for something the deck lacks, like a way to deal with enchantments and artifacts...

Just a thought

[Joe_C]

I actually think the -1 persecutor to cut it back to 60 cards is a pretty solid idea bakofried. I think I am playing this next weekend at a rather large tourney. It's this, TES, dredge, or death and taxes. I expect combo to be pretty big, and out of the decks I have aside from playing combo myself, the gate has the best combo matchup since I pack all that discard in there. I'm hearing a bunch of people talking about playing tempo decks, which to me means goyf. So I'm packing deathmark main

[bakofried]

This deck is built to tear up tempo decks, especially New Horizons. You'll definitely want Deathmark main - and Dystopia in the side will seal the deal.

[Kolhell]

Most decks around here hold all splash versions at the same thread. I believe that happens because discussing the same core deck at different threads is kinda counter productive, and splash is something personal. Although it's a thin line between what is :w: splash and what is Deadguy, if the deck share the same core of The Gate, I don't see how it would be bad to be discussed here.

That said, I don't think The Gate needs a splash to deal with aggro, i.e. add StP, it already have a lot of good cards to deal with aggro. If you are really opening the gate for wastelands and stifles, at least do that for something the deck lacks, like a way to deal with enchantments and artifacts...

Just a thought

*cough* my initial post said Vindicate :) StP is just icing. I appreciate the vote, though.

How do you mono-black guys handle CB, chalice, etc? Besides discard. I mean, it seems like your mana curves are excessively vulnerable to these two cards. Sure, you're most likely capable of wreaking enough havoc right at the beginning to last a while, but then what? Pray you topdeck a perc? It seems to me that something as simple as an evasive SoFI paired with a soft lock would flat out shit in your Cheerios.

[Joe_C]

I'm probably playing this deck next weekend at a large tourney. I think the meta will be perfect for this deck since I have a feeling there will be a lot of u/g/? decks there. Here is my list, which has tested very well:

18 swamp
4 wasteland

3 abyssal persecutor
4 dark confidant
4 vampire nighthawk
4 gatekeeper of malakir
3 bitterblossom

3 cabal therapy
4 duress
4 hymn to tourach

3 umezawa's jitte
4 innocent blood
2 deathmark

Sb:

1 deathmark
4 spinning darkness
3 dystopia
4 faerie macabre
2 sadistic sacrament

Wish me luck!

[Kyubi9]

Your list looks very solid to me, but you need an answer for CB, Top, Chalice, etc.. Maybe you cut something in your SB for Rachet Bomb. This can deal with that stuff.

I wish you luck!

[Joe_C]

I was planning on picking up some ratchet bombs at the tournament. I'm pretty sure I can get them the day of. If I x
can, -1 deathmark,-2 sacrament +3 ratchet bomb. Bomb is really solid against merfolk.

[Kyubi9]

Looks good. What do you plan against Goblins? Maybe you can cut 1 Faerie and 1 Spinnng darkness for Engineered Plague.

[Screamin]

I'm probably playing this deck next weekend at a large tourney. I think the meta will be perfect for this deck since I have a feeling there will be a lot of u/g/? decks there. Here is my list, which has tested very well:

18 swamp
4 wasteland

3 abyssal persecutor
4 dark confidant
4 vampire nighthawk
4 gatekeeper of malakir
3 bitterblossom

3 cabal therapy
4 duress
4 hymn to tourach

3 umezawa's jitte
4 innocent blood
2 deathmark

Sb:

1 deathmark
4 spinning darkness
3 dystopia
4 faerie macabre
2 sadistic sacrament

Wish me luck!

Good Luck to you. I would suggest dropping 1 jitte and adding either perish or deathmark to the MD if you think there will be a ton of u/g. For SB I would drop spinning darkness and running contamination.

Also, I would probably drop dystopia and run 1 more deathmark (or persih depending on above) in SB and 2 diabolic edict. I have tested my list which is similar to yours against a lot of u/g and works well.

[Joe_C]

I already have a good matchup against u/g decks. I run 2 deathmark main, and I don't want a 3 cc card(perish) to cover a matchup I already beat. I haven't tested contamination, but from what I gather from some who have, it's not worth it. I want jitte there as a 3 of. It is good against random jank. I've found from testing you have to be ok with mulliganing into discard for the matches you can't answer their permanents. Mulling into duress against decks that pack jace is golden. I can't count how many I've yanked from peoples hands.

[bakofried]

I would shave 1 hymn from the main and add a Deathmark. If you're that worried about the Jace decks, keep it in the side. (Pithing Needle is also strong)

[Joe_C]

What do you guys think of this?

- 1 jitte from main
+1 deathmark main

Sb now:

3 ratchet bomb
3 faerie macabre
3 engineered plague
1 sword of fire and ice
1 sword of light and shadow
1 jitte
3 dystopia

This helps my tribal aggro although I lose spinning darkness in trade for e plague.

[Kyubi9]

Looks like my SB. I think Plagues are importent, because Gobbos won the SCG. If you manage to get two Plagues on the table its GG.

[Joe_C]

I think the ratchet bomb are a really good addition. Being able to blow up counterbalance and multiple threats is good times. Id say the extra equipments are a good choice. Although the 3rd jitte may just become ratchet bomb #4. Sofi for merfolk and goblins and sols for zoo and death and taxes

[Kyubi9]

The Bombs are good against Zoo, too. With their mutiple one-offs you trade 1-3. When they hold them back force them to discard.

[Joe_C]

The Bombs are good against Zoo, too. With their mutiple one-offs you trade 1-3. When they hold them back force them to discard.

Not to mention it hits the stuff they play that deathmark doesn't ;)

I'm not %100 on how I should board for some matchups. I normally make plans on the fly, and it works for me. I guess a rough idea:

Goblins
-1 confidant
-3 deathmark
-4 duress
+3 plague
+3 bomb
+1 sofi
+1 jitte

Merfolk:
-3 deathmark
-1 blossom
-2 duress
-2 confidant

+3 plague
+1 jitte
+1 sofi
+3 bomb

Open to ideas for othe matchups. Ichorid is cake - 4 hym, -3 therapy +3 macabre, +4 bomb

[Kyubi9]

For Goblins I woudn't board Bombs and you'll need the the Confi.
-3 Deathmarks
-2 Duress
+3 Plague
+1 Sofi
+1 jitte

Ringleader is very dangerous here, because of the massive CA.

[Joe_C]

For Goblins I woudn't board Bombs and you'll need the the Confi.
-3 Deathmarks
-2 Duress
+3 Plague
+1 Sofi
+1 jitte

Ringleader is very dangerous here, because of the massive CA.

Duress is pretty dead against goblins, unless they play the black splash. Bomb doesn't seem too bad against them. If I don't have a better answer for creatures, it comes through in a pinch, and it nails vial, which can be a tempo loss for them

[Kyubi9]

Ok, if you face MonoR it's dead. But the Bomb is an Artifact and they will board hate against jitte. Maybe Tinkerer, Scrapper etc. So the bomb could be to slow. The only creature with cmc 1 is Lackey. On cmc 2 is jitte, BB, Gatekeeper and on their side Piledriver, Tinkerer(?). You hit yourself harder.

[Joe_C]

Ok, if you face MonoR it's dead. But the Bomb is an Artifact and they will board hate against jitte. Maybe Tinkerer, Scrapper etc. So the bomb could be to slow. The only creature with cmc 1 is Lackey. On cmc 2 is jitte, BB, Gatekeeper and on their side Piledriver, Tinkerer(?). You hit yourself harder.

The thing is if they land piledriver and such if they get ahead of me in the creature race(which is likely) I will need to block, which means my creatures are likely going to die, so having bomb to wipe out their board when I don't have plague is a reasonable choice. I'm not saying it's perfect, but it's not a purely dead card in the matchup

[TheSleeper]

How does Bomb wipe their board? Goblins have a diverse CC from 0 to 5. Not saying it wouldn't help you, especially with multiple tokens on the battlefield, but its not like Perish vs. Bant.

[bakofried]

A SB that I want to try out:
4 Nihil Spellbomb
3 Dystopia
3 Ratchet Bomb
2 Pithing Needle
1 Bitterblossom
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Cabal Therapy

It's very general - no real meta being targeted here. There's no testing to support it, it just looks good to me. Feel free to rip it apart.

[Kyubi9]

If you want try a gerneral SB, what about some Plagues? They push the Tribal-MUs a lot. I would cut the Blossom, Hymn and a Spellbomb.

[jazzykat]

Ok, if you face MonoR it's dead. But the Bomb is an Artifact and they will board hate against jitte. Maybe Tinkerer, Scrapper etc. So the bomb could be to slow. The only creature with cmc 1 is Lackey. On cmc 2 is jitte, BB, Gatekeeper and on their side Piledriver, Tinkerer(?). You hit yourself harder.

There is also 1 more rather important thing that ratchet bomb DEFINITELY hits...Aether Vial. Also, there is a chance they bring in needles vs. your equipment and you can clear them out.

Regardless, 1 Engineered Plague keeps about half the goblins off the table and 2 should just about seal the deal so if you are just worried about goblins that is the (obvious) way to go.

[Augustas]

So we have a Necroskitter and a Black Sun's Zenith.
Black Sun's Zenith
Sorcery (R)
Put X -1/-1 counters on each creature. Shuffle Black Sun's Zenith into its owner's library.

So with this we can actually return the whole field to our side. I wonder if this could actually work :O

[Kyubi9]

There is also 1 more rather important thing that ratchet bomb DEFINITELY hits...Aether Vial. Also, there is a chance they bring in needles vs. your equipment and you can clear them out.

Regardless, 1 Engineered Plague keeps about half the goblins off the table and 2 should just about seal the deal so if you are just worried about goblins that is the (obvious) way to go.

I only wanted to say that Ratchet Bomb isn't worth to board against Goblins. It hit Aether Vial and maybe Pithing Needel. But what want you to board out for it? Discard is necessary and sacrifice is importent. So there are 2-3 Deathmarks. These slots are for Plagues.
And than there is Duress.I would board 3 Needles to shut down the Vials and Port of Rishadan.

[Augustas]

Go for the Throat :1::b: destroy target non-artifact creature.

So what it doesn't kill in Legacy? What is worth mentioning other than Painter's Servant?

I'll be replacing Smother with these for sure. And anyway, it's the 5th way of getting rid of Persy by your own.

[bakofried]

Ok, that's really fucking tempting. I can admit that.

[hyc8028]

Go for the Throat seem really good removal for this deck. They will probably go in instead of my deathmark.

[I am the brainwasher]

Re: [Deck] The Gate
Go for the Throat seem really good removal for this deck. They will probably go in instead of my deathmark.

Thought exactly the same thing!

I am testing a individual Version of the Gate atm, because I got a bit tired of my Solidarity-Deck and liked the Gate very much in the past time as I have tested it.
My version is not THAT straight forward and has somewhat more controllish Elements in it and I am very, very satisfied as far as my tests has go on.
Heres what I am working with:
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Vampire Nighthawk
3 Necroplasm
3 Abyssal Persecutor
1 Tombstalker

3 Duress
2 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Bitterblossom
2 Umezawas Jitte
4 Innocent Blood
2 Smother/Go for Throat
1 Diabolic Edict ----> I think that this is going to be the 3rd Go for Throat in the near future
1 free Slot (I play Damnation or a 16th Creature here right now)

4 Wasteland
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
16 Swamp

Sb:
2 Perish
3 Pithing Needle
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Engineered Plaque
1 Yixlid jailer
1 Free Slot (I play Diabolic Edict in that Slot atm)



Even if there are more unusual Choices and a "random" - Factor at the first glance at my list, I can just recommend how good nearly all games turned out for me, WITHOUT Dark Confidant. I never missed that dude and you really need to look at a single card that might be one of the most underestimated ones in Legacy at all:
Necroplasm
This guy is just huge against many Decks and Omnomnoms so many things on its way to the yard.
The only thing I didnt like was that he SOMETIMES eats up our Tokens, but that never happened to me as it was relevant. If he is at 3 Counters I normaly just sacc. him for Therapy if another Nighthawk/whatever sticks around. I played this guy just for a cute test but was convinced after I played some games with him. And whats important. This guy has Dredge! I havent noticed that in the first place ;).
I never had problems by producing Cardadvantage without Confidant and I really havent liked him in some MU.
Tombstalker is random, nut randomly wins games. I tried 2 at first but found myself not able to cast him because of my Therapies or lack of enough cards in yard, so I cut one. He was always when he appeared now and the Dredge of Necroplasm make him somewhat more "castable" and I felt pretty good to know that I have another beatstick besides Persecutor.
21 Lands is the optimum for this higher mana-curve and worked for me so far.
Feel free to criticise, here are definetly more experienced players in this thread and progress is based on discussion and development!
Greetings

[ScatmanX]

GFTT is a removal for your own Persecutors too...

[sporenfrosch1411]

Why the hell would you not play Dark Confidant?
He is one of the best cards and a single-card machine in this deck! You drop him, your opponent handles him or pretty much looses.....

Looking at the Sideboard, what does that single Jailer do? Nothing? Don't tell me siding in a single card that you can't tutor will be a constant and relevant answer to anything.

Necroplasm is so incredibly slow and your opponent can outplay it so easily. If it goes up to 2, drop a one, if it goes to 3, drop a two. Necroplasm is so irrelevant against a good player, i wonder versus who or what you have "good test results".

Sorry dude, but there is so much wrong with this list, i don't even see the point of continuing to explain it.....
My advice is to read the first, let's say 20 pages of this thread.

[Augustas]

I am the brainwasher

dude, seriously?.. I don't want to bash you, but this looked kinda like an insult for the deck. Saying that you never missed Confidant already makes your post a joke, ask anyone what's the best CA creature in the game, yes it's indeed Confidant. So i can pretty much calmly say that you clearly don't know anything about this deck or how it works.

So please, think before posting and just because you have won some games on MWS it doesn't make your idea awesome.


And talking about changes in the deck, I wonder how Maze of Ith would be working for those who don't own Wastes. I don't own them, so I play Factories, but I'm thinking about the idea to run like two or three Mazes instead of 1-2 Factories. But the problem is as usual, it doesn't produce mana, it's bad early game, makes you mulligan with hand of 1 Swamp and Maze. Maybe 1-off?

[Kyubi9]

Re: [Deck] The Gate

...
My version is not THAT straight forward and has somewhat more controllish Elements in it and I am very, very satisfied as far as my tests has go on.
...



Where do you have the" more controllish" parts? Do you mean the one more Thoughtseize? By the way TS isn`t a good choice for The Gate.
Please do as Sporenfrosch1411 said: Read the first 20 pages of this thread.

[Augustas]

Another interesting card is Moriok Replica. I wonder why nobody mentions it? Propably I'll put some of these for a test :D What d'ya guys think?

[sporenfrosch1411]

Well i guess nobody mentions it because Confidant just is better in a vacuum :)
Look at it like this: Would you e.g. handle a Replica? Or wouldn't you wait for him to sacrifice it and have drawn 2 cards for 5 mana and 2 life? I would consider even Sign in Blood or Phyrexian Arena more of an option
But don't get me wrong - Confidant is the perfect choice and i would never cut that one for any of the mentioned.

[I am the brainwasher]

I was not prepared for that huge ammount of criticism:eyebrow:.
I realy did not wanted to say or to point out that this is superior to the "classic" build or lists that others were working with. As I said, ("I am testing a individual Version of the Gate atm". "My version is not THAT straight forward".) I am working with a list.
If I liked what I am starting with (and yes, this is a start. Everybody starts at some point), this is no proof that this is definetly the way to go. I liked to test out some new cards and liked their effect on the games in my tests. Not always, but I liked them.
I played the classic list a lot online and I know that Confidant is a powerhouse. You might got that wrong, but its no noob here who wants proof his cute deck with a kind of "me-against-the-world" state of mind. I wanted to share some new thoughts and if this isnt working (or dislking directly without testing, which might be more appropiate here:tongue:)) thats pretty fine.
I really dont want to repeat myself that much but I also said that I am not that experienced as other players but the advice to read the post 20 pages of the thread were already done as I wrote my last comment.
I think there are many different ways to pick up and deal with sentences and thoughts of other people and to me it appeals that this might have gone in some kind of "wrong" direction here.
I am always open to well based criticism and thats what I were looking for and found that at some places here, but not as I would have imgained it. But thats okay to me in the end.
Not that it is that necessary to justify my points of view that accurate, just wanted to make my point here!
Greetings

[Augustas]

maybe it was too harsh a little bit, but you understand why it happened :) Necroplasm kills 1cc creatures on turn 4, and by then it's only a weak 2/2 chump blocker at best. So we are looking for CA, and what CA this card can actually offer to you? Let's say you have a Tombstalker in your opening. When you actually will be able to cast him? Casting for 2 with this deck is basicly impossible because most of the stuff is permanents. It was discussed earlier that Thoughtseize doesn't deal with anything more than a Duress, because you want your opponent to cast creatures. So all you did with your deck is that you took out Bobs for Necroplasm, cut some cards for Thoughtseize and you call this your own direction? A new direction is something like adding hexmagedepths combo, Smallpox engine, splashing other colours or overall adding some kind of combination/engine of other cards. Anyway, you obviously can ignore us and keep playing whatever works for you, so I wish you best luck with stuff that you play :]

[bakofried]

Honestly, you should read the whole thread. Realize that some innovation is subpar; while it can be effective, it may also be less effective than alternatives. Furthermore, unless you're testing with a testing partner that is decent at playing (that is, not random people on MWS or what-have-you) than the testing done doesn't really prove a point.

[sporenfrosch1411]

My advice, not only for brainwasher but for people in general that attempt to play this deck / work with it, is to try out Hollywood's list first. Play it, play it again, then play it again. Take it as an unchangeable list. Use it exactly as he posted it in his starting thread. After having done that you can start changing it, not before you have even tried it out......

[Kolhell]

Go for the Throat vs Deathmark... why even continue having this discussion? The latter costs B and knocks out all major threats that your Gatekeeper of Malakir can't handle. The former costs 1B, is instant speed, and hits everything that the latter doesn't. And you know what? It's still exactly the same argument as Smother vs Deathmark (in which after a harrowing fight Deathmark wins).

Regardless of what you may think, if 95% of the time both spells get cast against the same target in the same situation then you may as well be using the one that costs less.

[Lichking616]

Guys, I just want your honest opinion...if you gonna cut between persecutors and bitterblossoms which would you choose? which is more important? and please state your reasons..thnx a lot

BTW, wheres HOLLYWOOD? XD

[Kyubi9]

Guys, I just want your honest opinion...if you gonna cut between persecutors and bitterblossoms which would you choose? which is more important? and please state your reasons..thnx a lot


Why do you want to cut one of these? Do you want to board or replace them? Maybe you can explain a little more.

[sporenfrosch1411]

Guys, I just want your honest opinion...if you gonna cut between persecutors and bitterblossoms which would you choose? which is more important? and please state your reasons..thnx a lot
None. I just can't but to assume you lack budget, which i won't accept as an argument basis for card choices - yea, there you go with honesty...
If that's not why you want to cut basic cards that define this archetype, you have to do some really intense explaining.






Btw:
Did first place at a small tournament on Saturday...nothing too fancy but hey, i got a scrubland :) I'm fine with that.

My list:
4 Abyssal Persecutor
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Dark Confidant
3 Bitterblossom

3 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Deathmark
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Innocent Blood

17 Swamp
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
3 Pithing Needle
4 Faerie Macabre
3 Disfigure
3 Dystopia
2 Ratchet Bomb



After the tournament and after the last tournament (about two weeks ago) i did some playtesting, here are some short results:
Not a single win versus TES
Easy wins versus Bant-Tempo
Not a single win versus Doomsday
Almost all games won versus UBg Tempo/Thresh
All games won versus Sneak Attack (but hey, if you can pull out a Sneak Attack and a Show and Tell with a single hymn...you just can't count that as a result :D )


Thought i'd just share some results / opinions with you.

[bakofried]

The new Pithing Beetle may help you against TES. Stops LED and Petal at the least, and applies pressure at the same time. Btw, how's Disfigure in the SB working for you? I assume you bring it in against Merfolk+Goblins. Furthermore, what do you use Ratchet Bomb for?

[Lichking616]

None. I just can't but to assume you lack budget, which i won't accept as an argument basis for card choices - yea, there you go with honesty...
If that's not why you want to cut basic cards that define this archetype, you have to do some really intense explaining.



Thought i'd just share some results / opinions with you.


For the simple reason that I want to incorporate more removal and nantuko shade which I already purchased...is it enough sir?:frown:

[bakofried]

Trust me - get BB and Percy, and try running the basic list. There will be some hiccups, but as you pick up the deck, you'll appreciate more. Furthermore, isn't Shade really cheap since the reprint? Go use him in something like SuiBlack - but here, he's a mana sink when we don't need one. And you'll find the removal is plenty for the majority of decks out there.

[sporenfrosch1411]

Disfigure, as you assumed correct, is mainly versus Goblins and Merfolk. The instant speed and cc1 is really nice against Lackey and Piledriver, not to mention that -2 kills every single Goblin.
Versus Merfolk it's kind of a different thing. Versus Merfolk you have to use it fast, to be honest i'd use it on the first lord you see, because later on it will become pretty useless, but since merfolk does not swarm as good as goblins do, your sacrifice effects can still get you the game (versus goblins they just don't do that good, because most likely they will sac a token or a matron or something like that)

Ratchet Bomb.... well it is kind of an attempt to get an answer to Counterbalance, Aether Vial, (Ensnaring Bridge - trust me, you DON'T want to see a bridge with TheGate) and basically every threatening non-creature-permanent. It also is nice versus Chalice of the Void, but that i guess you won't be seeing too often at the moment. I think it's kind of a meta choice.... a very loose one.


What bothers me most at the moment is the combo matchup.
TES is such a consistent deck, even with Turn1 Duress, Turn2 Hymn i could not manage to win. Pretty much the same applies for Doomsday, against which you at least can board in Pithing Needles and put them on Sensei's Divining Top.
What's your plan versus those decks? Do you just go with the fact that it's a bad matchup or do you have any good plans?

[Gui]

None. I just can't but to assume you lack budget, which i won't accept as an argument basis for card choices - yea, there you go with honesty...
If that's not why you want to cut basic cards that define this archetype, you have to do some really intense explaining.

The guy is asking for a opinion, he's not telling you to do the same. There's no need to be rude and say he shouldn't do that, when he will end up doing so anyways.

@Lichking616
I'd recommed you to run the basic list, as most here will do, if you can. But if you can't, then switch Persecutor for Shade. BB stalls rushs against you and create endless Jitte-carriers, and Shade is a beater, as Persecutor is. Won't be the same, but will probably have the same inherited good matchs. Also, switching Persecutor opens possibilities for other cards, since you won't have to worry about dealing with your own guy.

[sporenfrosch1411]

I dont really see rudeness in stating that i dont accept a lack of budget as a basis for card choices and asking for an explanation why you would cut deck defining cards, do you? If so, then i am sorry.

[Gui]

I dont really see rudeness in stating that i dont accept a lack of budget as a basis for card choices and asking for an explanation why you would cut deck defining cards, do you? If so, then i am sorry.

I do see, because for me it was like saying "You are asking for help, but I'm here to answer that I won't help", when his obvious reason was budget. Maybe that's just me, tho.

Anyways, sorry for rambling, no need for further discussion on what is rude or not, imo.

[Lichking616]

The guy is asking for a opinion, he's not telling you to do the same. There's no need to be rude and say he shouldn't do that, when he will end up doing so anyways.

@Lichking616
I'd recommed you to run the basic list, as most here will do, if you can. But if you can't, then switch Persecutor for Shade. BB stalls rushs against you and create endless Jitte-carriers, and Shade is a beater, as Persecutor is. Won't be the same, but will probably have the same inherited good matchs. Also, switching Persecutor opens possibilities for other cards, since you won't have to worry about dealing with your own guy.

Thanks a lot sir..most appreciated.:laugh:

[sporenfrosch1411]

When would you ever worry about getting rid of Persecutor?
I have never had any single game, where i could not get rid of him if i wanted to. 3 Cabal Therapy (Flashback), 4 Innocent Blood, 4 Gatekeeper of Malakir makes a total of 11 cards.
All those sacrifice effects serve the dual purpose of beeing removal versus your enemy and giving you the possibility to get rid of Percy. It seems the symbiosis of card choices is beeing really misunderstood here. I never saw any of the spells as a disadvantage or suboptimal choice just to play persecutor. All the cards work very well on their own, and additionally serve in a symbiosis.
But hey, i'm really getting tired of these basic card choice discussions. You don't discuss Piledriver in a Goblin build, do you?
The problem here is, we get stuck at this over and over again. As soon as there could be evoluting something useful, someone comes up with a craprare in a bad list because of budget / personal preferences or whatever reasons might be all keep discussing that nonsense for some pages and then the thread is dead again for a week. Don't get me wrong, i think its perfectly ok to play on a budget, but why would you play Legacy on a budget? Does that make any sense? I hope this won't lead to some "tournament play is expensive, or not?" discussion - because, quite frankly, it just is - so get used to it. Just because this is a Tier2 deck, everybody comes up with totally random, inefficient choices and justifies them by budget reasons. I don't play Canadian, if i can't afford Force of Will, do i? I don't play Goblins if i can't afford Piledrivers, i don't play Zoo if i can't afford Tarmogoyf's - why does everyone think he can play TheGate when he can't afford Persecutors, Bitterblossoms or Wastelands? They are defining this archetype, they are essential............

[Gui]

When would you ever worry about getting rid of Persecutor?
I have never had any single game, where i could not get rid of him if i wanted to. 3 Cabal Therapy (Flashback), 4 Innocent Blood, 4 Gatekeeper of Malakir makes a total of 11 cards.
All those sacrifice effects serve the dual purpose of beeing removal versus your enemy and giving you the possibility to get rid of Percy. It seems the symbiosis of card choices is beeing really misunderstood here. I never saw any of the spells as a disadvantage or suboptimal choice just to play persecutor. All the cards work very well on their own, and additionally serve in a symbiosis.
But hey, i'm really getting tired of these basic card choice discussions. You don't discuss Piledriver in a Goblin build, do you?
The problem here is, we get stuck at this over and over again. As soon as there could be evoluting something useful, someone comes up with a craprare in a bad list because of budget / personal preferences or whatever reasons might be all keep discussing that nonsense for some pages and then the thread is dead again for a week. Don't get me wrong, i think its perfectly ok to play on a budget, but why would you play Legacy on a budget? Does that make any sense? I hope this won't lead to some "tournament play is expensive, or not?" discussion - because, quite frankly, it just is - so get used to it. Just because this is a Tier2 deck, everybody comes up with totally random, inefficient choices and justifies them by budget reasons. I don't play Canadian, if i can't afford Force of Will, do i? I don't play Goblins if i can't afford Piledrivers, i don't play Zoo if i can't afford Tarmogoyf's - why does everyone think he can play TheGate when he can't afford Persecutors, Bitterblossoms or Wastelands? They are defining this archetype, they are essential............

I can't say for sure whether it is right to discuss budget alternatives for a deck at its thread, maybe the moderators could tell us that. I know the discussion should be kept in competitive levels, but I also believe you can make competitive decls even without some of its piece, or using a budget piece instead. I understand you say that Persecutor is like the cornerstone of this deck, since it was all built around running him, but I can see it playing with Nantuko instead of Persecutor and having good results, as for it was the card I played before playing Persecutor and was just fine.

Also, noone is saying you should drop Persecutor. He was asking for an opinion, for people that are used to play the deck and could enlight him. I don't see how that opinion could destroy the discussion, and don't see how denying this opinion just because it is budget-based will make the discussion any better.

And for the record, I never said I had problems dealing with Persecutor, just stated that he could, for example, run Inquisition instead of Cabal or whatever 1cc removal instead of Innocent Blood, since he wouldn't have to worry about his onw Persecutor in that case.

[FieryBalrog]

Don't get me wrong, i think its perfectly ok to play on a budget, but why would you play Legacy on a budget? Does that make any sense?

Yes, yes it does? Budget discussion might not belong in this thread, but this comment is asinine. Also I dont see anything wrong with someone asking "I only have money for one of the cards right now, which one is more important to get first". Throwing a hissy fit about it is silly.

[sporenfrosch1411]

Whatever, play what you want. Build green Decks without Tarmogoyfs because you can't afford them and go play Krosan Cloudscraper as a target for Natural Order because Progenitus is too expensive - i won't bother anymore about this, because THIS is truly silly.


Can we get to something useful now?


What bothers me most at the moment is the combo matchup.
TES is such a consistent deck, even with Turn1 Duress, Turn2 Hymn i could not manage to win. Pretty much the same applies for Doomsday, against which you at least can board in Pithing Needles and put them on Sensei's Divining Top.
What's your plan versus those decks? Do you just go with the fact that it's a bad matchup or do you have any good plans?

[Augustas]

I think that Thorn of Amethyst should be the card for us against Combo. Some discard on their acceleration early turns, than drop this.

And another thing, I decided to put one Profane Command as a tech card.. And it does kinda pretty well.

[sporenfrosch1411]

Profane Command is interesting, what do you use it for?
Thorn of Amethyst has not done very well in my testing so far, i often found a 2 mana permanent to be too expensive and versatile. But i will consider testing it again.

[Michael Keller]

Whatever, play what you want. Build green Decks without Tarmogoyfs because you can't afford them and go play Krosan Cloudscraper as a target for Natural Order because Progenitus is too expensive - i won't bother anymore about this, because THIS is truly silly.


Can we get to something useful now?

Now do you see why I don't post in this thread anymore?

At any rate, good to see people still working on it. While I've personally abandoned the deck all together, it's still good to see work being done on it.

[Joe_C]

Against combo you have a fair amount of tools maindeck with duress, therapy, wasteland, and hymn. If you aren't willing to mulligan down to having a turn 1 discard and maybe another one for turn 2, then just throw your combo mathup in the toilet. You have a better chance ruining their hand with discard that trying to board in cards that are narrow to the combo matchup, that you also can't tutor for. You need to mulligan to the right hand to take as much from them as possible. If you fear combo that much I could see running therapy #4 and some more discard in your board, but it's still an uphill battle without trashing your board to focus on beating combo.

[Augustas]

about Profane : It obviously sucks early game, but it gets online with 4 mana, like, recurring Nighthawk/Bob and maybe taking their random creature out. I like it because it has a bit of everything and it's really powerful mid/late game.

And c'mon, we can dedicate some SB space for combo hate. Same thing with Dredge, you can't play against it without some graveyard hate in your opening :]

[gremsch]

Another card to consider against combo is extirpate. Especially if you already run duress + hymn in the main.
It can give you ridiculous victories with plays like "waste your underground sea, extirpate it".
It offers chances to nail the "i win" card.
It allows you to shuflle your opponent's library in response to the "i draw" top effect, or after an end of turn lim dul's vault (hint : target brainstorm in such situations).
I've always loved it in black decks against combo matchups.

[bakofried]

I don't agree - I'm on the bus that says Extirpate should be reserved for Loam and Reanimator. If you want an effect like that, just run Sad Sac. It's 3 mana, sure, but Extirpate isn't much good turn 1 either, is it?

Hollywood had some success with Soul Spike in the board.

[Gui]

How about Chalice of the Void @0 against storm combo? Could even be cast @1 and you would still be able to cast more than half of the list. If I recal correctly, it is widely used by goblins.

Also, could Dark Ritual be a SB option against combo? I assume you take all your creature-kills out against combo, which is like 6-7 spots if not counting Malakir.

[Augustas]

I'm afraid i have to agree with sporenfrosch, if you want to go budged, build SuiBlack. if you already have shades, jittes and Bobs, your'e good to go. There's really nice stuff going on there with equips + Dauthi creatures. So, if you can't afford it - don't play it, because otherwise if you will start cutting key advantage cards like BB and Percy, you'll end up with a very bad deck, while playing a full SuiBlack will get you much better results until you you'll be able to purchase missing cards for TheGate. So don't be so resentful, it's natural to get such reaction. Go to gobbos thread and try to suggest playing gobbos on budget, you'll propably will be redirected to monoB gobbos thread or something ;]

peace

[bakofried]

It effectively reduces your SB by 4 slots though. And what would ramp into? Discard? I'm thinking I'm going to stick 3-4 copies of Sadistic Sacrament in my SB; if I can destabilize them with discard, and follow it up with a Sad Sac, they shouldn't be feeling too hot. And it's decent against Landstill variants and other decks that rely on Jace as well. So, for Storm, i'd probably keep something like this in my board:
3-4 Sadistic Sacrament
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Cabal Therapy

[Michael Keller]

Go For the Throat should find its way as a four-of in this deck, without question. It is arguably the best spot-removal ever printed for Black and it hits just about every relevant creature in Legacy. It's that good.

[bakofried]

With that in mind, here' my latest list.
The Gate 2/2/2011
Lands:
18x Swamp
4x Wasteland
Creatures:
4x Abyssal Persecutor
4x Vampire Nighthawk
4x Gatekeeper of Malakir
4x Dark Confidant
Spells:
3x Umezawa's Jitte
3x Bitterblossom
3x Hymn to Tourach
4x Go for the Throat
4x Duress
4x Innocent Blood
3x Cabal Therapy
Sideboard:
3x Sadistic Sacrament
3x Dystopia
3x Pithing Needle
3x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Hymn to Tourach
1x Cabal Therapy
1x Flex Slot

You'll notice that the list is 62 cards. I found myself liking the 18 lands + 4 Percy configuration, so 61 cards is fine by me, but if anyone has other suggestions, so be it. So, really, what card should I shave off? I was thinking the 3rd Jitte could become the flex slot in the side. Speaking of the flex slot, what should it be if not Jitte?

[vikram]

Do you really need to play that much removal in this deck. 4 Innocent Blood seems excessive when you already play 4 Go for the Throat, 4 Gatekeeper of Malakir, 4 Vampire Nighthawk and 3 Jitte all of which effectively deal with creatures. Also, I would absolutely play 4 Hymn to Tourach.

I would cut some Bitterblossoms and some Innocent Bloods in order to get free up room for the 4th Hymn and also to cut back down to 60 cards.

[bakofried]

I could see cutting a BB to get down to 61 cards, but I'm happy there, honestly. And the 4th Hymn seems excessive, unless there's a critical mass of Storm or Lanstill variants in your meta.

[maximumcarnage]

Go For the Throat should find its way as a four-of in this deck, without question. It is arguably the best spot-removal ever printed for Black and it hits just about every relevant creature in Legacy. It's that good.

Completely agreed.

[bakofried]

So I'll be shaving a Jitte to the SB to make room for 4 copies of GftT. This puts us at 8 dedicated pieces of removal, complemented by 4 Gatekeepers and 2-3 Jittes (depending on what you cut).
Also, for anyone who has tested it: how is the Deadguy MU?

[Joe_C]

I could see cutting a BB to get down to 61 cards, but I'm happy there, honestly. And the 4th Hymn seems excessive, unless there's a critical mass of Storm or Lanstill variants in your meta.

The hymns take care of everything against all decks. They draw counter like crazy and if they resolve can halt your opponents gameplan in a hurry. For BB, it should be a 4-of maindeck.

I like go for the throat, but I'm not sold on running 4, unless your meta is full of aggro. I think 4 innocent blood, 2 go for the throat is enough maindeck for most metagames.

[Lichking616]

The hymns take care of everything against all decks. They draw counter like crazy and if they resolve can halt your opponents gameplan in a hurry. For BB, it should be a 4-of maindeck.

I like go for the throat, but I'm not sold on running 4, unless your meta is full of aggro. I think 4 innocent blood, 2 go for the throat is enough maindeck for most metagames.

Is runnin a split of 3-a-piece of innocent bloods and G4tT more appopriate?

[Joe_C]

Is runnin a split of 3-a-piece of innocent bloods and G4tT more appopriate?

Turn 1 removal on the draw is important. Plus innocent blood let's us get rid of persecutor, nails progenitus, emrakul, shroud dudes, etc... I would keep it as a four of. You can always run go for the throat #'s 3-4 in the board if you have the need for them. I would likely run a third in the board.

[Clark Kant]

Hymn is too strong and versatile a card, not to play as a four of.


Turn 1 removal on the draw is important.

Why exactly? Lackey doesn't see that much play. You will more often want to be Duressing turn one than Innocent Blooding against most matchups.

Go for the Throat deals with your Persecutor too, same as Innocent Blood. Gatekeeper deals with all those creatures you just listed as well, and Vampire Nighthawk can likewise deal with many of them.

Bitterblossom is the weakest card in the deck. The Gate plays it because without it on the board, Innocent Blood at anytime other than turn one is often card disadvantage for us.

Go for the Throat, by providing another way to deal with Persecutor, allows the deck to move away from so many Innocent Blood and so many Bitterblossoms.

[Joe_C]

Stuff that innocent blood kills when we play 2nd:

Goblin lackey
Noble hierarch
Mother of runes
Wild nacatl
Steppe lynx
Grim lavamancer
Loam lion
Kird ape

Also with hands that are discard heavy, you want cheap removal so you can duress, then innocent blood, etc....

And bitterblossom is one of the BEST cards in the deck.

[bakofried]

I think your evaluation skills involving BB are fairly poor. It churns out Jitte carriers (on offense and defense) and synergizes well with Bob, Therapy, Blood, and is a generally strong card.

[Galroth]

The Gate relies heavily on card advantage. That's one of the core concepts that makes it different from other mono-black aggro variants. It's choices, Confidant, Gatekeeper, Hymn to Tourach are pure card advantage. Likewise Thoughtseize and Duress are there to improve card quality. Bitterblossom is intentionally part of this plan. To negate the effect of Bitterblossom, you need both enchantments removal and creature removal. Typically Bitterblossom generates card advantage. Cards like Umezawa's Jitte and Innocent Blood are just to help better utilize the effect.

Last note: Innocent Blood was included because of Abyssal Persecutor, not because it's a better removal spell than what else black has to offer. Even before Go for the Throat - Snuff Out and Smother are largely considered superior to Innocent Blood, with or without Bitterblossom.

[Lichking616]

I ran 3 abyssal persecutor and 2 bitterblossom to open up slots for extirpates cause graveyard decks are prevalent in our local setting...am I correct in decreasing each of these by 1 or should I decrease other cards like nighthawk or gatekeepers? :cry:

[Joe_C]

I wouldn't maindeck hate to dredge. My board is:

3 ratchet bomb
3 engineered plague
4 faerie macabre
3 dystopia
1 go for the throat(3 maindeck)
1 cabal therapy(3 maindeck)

[sporenfrosch1411]

At the moment, i am thinking about including 3 or 4 Unmask in my Sideboard, because my meta is heavy on StormCombo. Yes, i am aware that in a StormCombo Meta TheGate is not the deck to be chosen, but the other big part of my meta is Canadian, Tempo, Thresh and all of their variants, so that pretty much makes up for it, since those are really favorable matchups.

[Joe_C]

At the moment, i am thinking about including 3 or 4 Unmask in my Sideboard, because my meta is heavy on StormCombo. Yes, i am aware that in a StormCombo Meta TheGate is not the deck to be chosen, but the other big part of my meta is Canadian, Tempo, Thresh and all of their variants, so that pretty much makes up for it, since those are really favorable matchups.

You can run phyexian revoker and cut off lion's eye diamond, chrome mox etc. With discard and revoker, plus wasteland, you have a shot unless they turn 1 win. Revoker has applications elsewhere so it seems better than unmask to me

[sporenfrosch1411]

I'm not really sure about Phyrexian Revoker, i think at a casting cost of 2, it may collide with Hymn to Tourach, Duress or Cabal Therapy. The idea behind unmask was to discard as much and as fast as possible by having a "free" extra spell. Also i see that many StormCombo Decks are prepared to deal with "hatebears" like Gaddock Teeg(, Meddling Mage) and Ethersworn Canonist - which at first glance lead me to the conclusion, that Phyrexian Revoker won't really help here, seeing that it is even more narrow than Canonist and Teeg. Correct me if i am too critical on this one :)

[Joe_C]

I'm not really sure about Phyrexian Revoker, i think at a casting cost of 2, it may collide with Hymn to Tourach, Duress or Cabal Therapy. The idea behind unmask was to discard as much and as fast as possible by having a "free" extra spell. Also i see that many StormCombo Decks are prepared to deal with "hatebears" like Gaddock Teeg(, Meddling Mage) and Ethersworn Canonist - which at first glance lead me to the conclusion, that Phyrexian Revoker won't really help here, seeing that it is even more narrow than Canonist and Teeg. Correct me if i am too critical on this one :)

Most decks that run hate bears do not run discard. If you board in a fourth cabal therapy and whatever additional board cRds for combo you run ( I run faerie macabre(they will try ill gotten gains against you since we don't run counter), ratchet bomb, and the fourth therapy). If you ran revoker, you need to blind therapy for tutors (infernal and burning wish) then land a revoker on LED. This paired with hymn, straight up discard with duress should help your matchup greatly. The only answers most combo runs maindeck is bounce, so if you strip them of tutors, you can just replay your hate again and again

[sporenfrosch1411]

But wouldn't Null Rod just be the better choice then? Null Rod disables all the mana-artifacts at once, has the same casting cost and is no creature...
...also Null Rod disables the archetype Affinity, disables Aether Vials, Engineered Explosives, Thopther Foundry, Sensei's Divining Top and on :)
What do you think about Null Rod ?

[Joe_C]

But wouldn't Null Rod just be the better choice then? Null Rod disables all the mana-artifacts at once, has the same casting cost and is no creature...
...also Null Rod disables the archetype Affinity, disables Aether Vials, Engineered Explosives, Thopther Foundry, Sensei's Divining Top and on :)
What do you think about Null Rod ?

Depends on your metagame. If you see affinity a lot rod isn't bad for you at all. I like having jitte available so rod clashes with it pretty bad

[Kolhell]

I'm not really sure about Phyrexian Revoker, i think at a casting cost of 2, it may collide with Hymn to Tourach, Duress or Cabal Therapy. The idea behind unmask was to discard as much and as fast as possible by having a "free" extra spell. Also i see that many StormCombo Decks are prepared to deal with "hatebears" like Gaddock Teeg(, Meddling Mage) and Ethersworn Canonist - which at first glance lead me to the conclusion, that Phyrexian Revoker won't really help here, seeing that it is even more narrow than Canonist and Teeg. Correct me if i am too critical on this one :)

Meh, I agree, but I figured it was a valid point given the previous post :)

[Lichking616]

Is this thread dead?:really:

[bakofried]

Dude, it's been inactive for two days. No.
I'm going down to 3 Percy as an experiment; he's the top of the curve, and I like having the 18th land.

[Lichking616]

Dude, it's been inactive for two days. No.
I'm going down to 3 Percy as an experiment; he's the top of the curve, and I like having the 18th land.

yep im runnin percy @ 3..and its just ok

[bakofried]

So I was wondering, what should my flex slot be? My build looks like this:
The Gate 2/8/2011
Lands:
4x Wasteland
18x Swamp
Creatures:
3x Abyssal Persecutor
4x Vampire Nighthawk
4x Gatekeeper of Malakir
4x Dark Confidant
Spells:
3x Bitterblossom
2x Umezawa's Jitte
3x Hymn to Tourach
3x Go for the Throat
4x Duress
4x Innocent Blood
3x Cabal Therapy
Sideboard:
3x Sadistic Sacrament
3x Dystopia
3x Pithing Needle
3x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Cabal Therapy
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Hymn to Tourach
1x Go for the Throat

As you can see, my MD is 59 cards, and my SB is 16. So, out of the four 1-ofs in the SB, which should move to the MD? I picked Hymn; and I'll explain why later. What would you include?

[4nn4n45]

I came up with the 3-percy idea quite a time ago and have to say that it's running quite well for me too.
The 18th land stabilizes my mana-base quite much and pushes wastelands use as an aggressive tool to its maximum.

Reducing Percys down to 3
a) helps us with our early disruption/card advantage/board-state plan because he doesn't "block" a spot in the beginning
b) reduces the chance to get kinda percy-flooded in the end
c) reduces the chance to find him with Bob

In the beginning I was afraid I'd have to wait for him to seal the deal, but serious testing let this sorrow become unsustainable.
On the other side he's not the card to be underestimated in the list just because he's on top of the curve. He's amazing when he hits the board. That makes him a must-have 3-of, but you can get over it to not run him as a 4-of for the advantages given above I think.

bako:
I took hymn too.
It just pulls out counters en masse and is one of the greatest card advantage tools we have available. If it's left resolved - it is just devastating. In the last weeks it has proven its value totally.

Earlier, I ran 2 Jittes too, but I soon realized, that a 3rd one gave the deck as a whole an important push in the right direction.
The fact that it's a 61 card list makes me quite unhappy sometimes but i have learned to live with it.

So my actual main-list is yours above +1 jitte +1 hymn
I'll keep on testing it and I'm quite interested in seeing how G4tt will work out for us.

[bakofried]

Keep us posted on how testing goes.

[maximumcarnage]

So I was wondering, what should my flex slot be? I picked Hymn; What would you include?

It's gotta be between Jitte and Hymn. I'd probably go with Hymn.

[sporenfrosch1411]

If you expect aggro - go for Jitte
If you expect control - go for Hymn
If you expect combo - go for Therapy

Evaluate what will be a bigger part in your meta and just hope for the best :)

[bakofried]

I really want the 3rd Jitte. It wrecks so many decks. I think I'm being pulled back to 61 cards. Any arguments against it?

[maximumcarnage]

I've never been a fan of going with 61. The absolute minimum just gives you a better chance of hitting the card you need when you need it. Not a huge percentage, but every little bit helps IMO.

[Caspid]

61 is never a good idea.

Here's my list. It's not too much different, but I'm trying out 3 Pers.
Considering -1 Hymn +1 GftT.
I like TS > IoK > Duress, but it's killed me a couple times.
no sb yet.


4 Dark Confidant
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Vampire Nighthawk
3 Abyssal Persecutor

4 Innocent Blood
4 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Go for the Throat

3 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Bitterblossom

18 Swamp
4 Wasteland

[bakofried]

Duress>Thoughtseize>IoK within the context of this deck. You have more removal than several legacy decks have creatures. They're a non-issue.

[Lichking616]

I have a 2 of split of duress and IoK..and it works for me.:wink:

[bakofried]

"Works" =/= optimal. Why won't you cut IoK for Duress?

[perm]

I have a 2 of split of duress and IoK..and it works for me.:wink:

Yah I see absolutely no reason to do that

[Lichking616]

Well i run a spit of IOk/Duress coz i only run 3 innocent bloods...I kinda need the 2 extra Ioks to take off 1st turn lackey..or anythin threatening in the first few rounds..duress comes late game

[Gui]

I agree, Duress is better than IoK in this deck for the fact that you run that much removal.

The only reason someone could use IoK over Duress is plain old metacall - I'd run IoK if I expected a lot of Goblin, Merfolk and Zoo, since against them, you will hardly miss Duress reach, while they tend to run more creatures than you run removal.

[Michael Keller]

I have been working extensively with The Gate again. I'll be updating the O.P. and hopefully have a new list in the near future. I really feel this deck is ripe in the current meta; with an update in battling the "Big Three" (C.B., Merfolk, Goblins) I feel the deck has a legitimate chance to do some damage.

[Augustas]

Yay, it's Christmas again! Looking forward to see something new Hollywood :]

[sporenfrosch1411]

I am really looking forward :)

[bakofried]

w00t! *victory dance*
Can't wait to see what you're brewing.

[mujadaddy]

I have been working extensively with The Gate again. I'll be updating the O.P. and hopefully have a new list in the near future. I really feel this deck is ripe in the current meta; with an update in battling the "Big Three" (C.B., Merfolk, Goblins) I feel the deck has a legitimate chance to do some damage.

Still mono-:b:?

[4nn4n45]

Nice to read that Hollywood. I'm looking forward to it.

[Leto]

I'm really interested in your new stuff Hollywood, go and write it down ;)

[maximumcarnage]

I have been working extensively with The Gate again.

Yep. This is great news.

[Seraph2k]

Hey you replaced the Percy pic in the Primer with the new phy. crusader;)

[Michael Keller]

Hey you replaced the Percy pic in the Primer with the new phy. crusader;)

You would be correct, Seraph; Phyrexian Crusader is currently being worked into the new list. Nullifying Firespout, Swords to Plowshares, Lightning Bolt, etc. is just a beating and in testing he has been proving his worth. Probably the best card in the deck.

I've been a little busy taking extra time trying to get this thread as updated as I can with work and such but I'm on top of it.

[Seraph2k]

The crusader is indeed amazing. My playset arrived last week;) So I am keen on how the new list will be.

[Muradin]

So you really think Phyrexian Crusader is worth it? He doesn't synergize with any other creatures in the deck, because he basically doesn't deal any damage, unless you manage to make a total of 5 hits with him.

Sure he is pretty hard to kill with most removal spells and a beast of a wall most of the time, but I feel he'd be much stronger in a more agressive mono black build geared more towards poison and having Dark Ritual to power him out on turn 1.

Phyrexian Vatmother might be good alongside Phyrexian Crusader, but focusing this deck on poison seems to be a very weak attempt.

[Seraph2k]

We have our 8 edict effects and other removal. So if you have a crusader (and maybe a jitte) thats a fast clock;)

[Michael Keller]

So you really think Phyrexian Crusader is worth it? He doesn't synergize with any other creatures in the deck, because he basically doesn't deal any damage, unless you manage to make a total of 5 hits with him.

Sure he is pretty hard to kill with most removal spells and a beast of a wall most of the time, but I feel he'd be much stronger in a more agressive mono black build geared more towards poison and having Dark Ritual to power him out on turn 1.

Phyrexian Vatmother might be good alongside Phyrexian Crusader, but focusing this deck on poison seems to be a very weak attempt.

Phyrexian Crusader comes down turn three at the earliest. It requires five indefinite hits on its own merit to end the game. It dodges every relevant piece of removal in the format (including multilateral cards like Vindicate, Grim Lavamancer, and Devastating Dreams) and cannot be blocked by the aforementioned colored creatures.

Abyssal Persecutor comes down turn four at the earliest. It requires four hits before requiring a sacrificial outlet to allow it to die. It can be exiled by Swords/Path and if blocking can die to cards like Lightning Bolt and Chain Lightning.

Abyssal Persecutor is still awesome, and I am still running a pair, but the format has sped up tremendously on the battlefield and although Persecutor is a beating, Crusader is its own separate win condition entity. In addition with Jitte, the game can effectively end in as soon as three hits. The card is a problem by itself, which is exactly what we want, because we are working to squeeze every last bit threat-wise out of each creature in the deck.

Sure, Goyf can block it. That is unless of course an opponent actually sticks a Goyf against you (which should not happen that often).

And I am also looking into Dark Ritual as a supplement here.

[Seraph2k]

One bad thing with the crusader: He can`t fly, so he can`t stall the air vs stalkers, but thats not so important due to the fact that we can handle with blood, gatekeeper and GftT every releant creature.
And in the most cases Percy ends the game with THREE hit (fetchlands).
So I think I will give my crusaders a chance, but I think we have to cut therapys for more GftT.

[2Rach]

Phyrexian Crusader comes down turn three at the earliest. It requires five indefinite hits on its own merit to end the game. It dodges every relevant piece of removal in the format (including multilateral cards like Vindicate, Grim Lavamancer, and Devastating Dreams) and cannot be blocked by the aforementioned colored creatures.

Abyssal Persecutor comes down turn four at the earliest. It requires four hits before requiring a sacrificial outlet to allow it to die. It can be exiled by Swords/Path and if blocking can die to cards like Lightning Bolt and Chain Lightning.

Abyssal Persecutor is still awesome, and I am still running a pair, but the format has sped up tremendously on the battlefield and although Persecutor is a beating, Crusader is its own separate win condition entity. In addition with Jitte, the game can effectively end in as soon as three hits. The card is a problem by itself, which is exactly what we want, because we are working to squeeze every last bit threat-wise out of each creature in the deck.

Sure, Goyf can block it. That is unless of course an opponent actually sticks a Goyf against you (which should not happen that often).
Takes 3 hits with Persecutor. Opponents cracking two fetches or a hit or two from another creature that actually deals damage isn't unrealistic.

Best case scenarios don't matter. Without removal for Goyf, it can kill it with blocking or fly over. If you have removal that just means you can save it for Persecutor. It has a 3-turn clock without Jitte, and with Jitte it can kill itself with 3 hits.

Resetting your opponent's life points seems like a bad plan. Get a couple hits in with a Confidant and Gatekeeper before they get removed and then bringing this guy out seems like it'll feel like a gigantic waste of time.

Basically, it comes down to: immune to removal, cheaper cost vs. big body(faster clock, better blocking), evasion, more synergy with your other creatures and opponent's cards. Seeing as how there's hand disruption and other creatures to subtract the opponent's removal, I'd rather have Persecutor.

EDIT:
Slow posting is slow.

[Barook]

Phyrexian Crusader comes down turn three at the earliest. It requires five indefinite hits on its own merit to end the game. It dodges every relevant piece of removal in the format (including multilateral cards like Vindicate, Grim Lavamancer, and Devastating Dreams) and cannot be blocked by the aforementioned colored creatures.

Abyssal Persecutor comes down turn four at the earliest. It requires four hits before requiring a sacrificial outlet to allow it to die. It can be exiled by Swords/Path and if blocking can die to cards like Lightning Bolt and Chain Lightning.

Abyssal Persecutor is still awesome, and I am still running a pair, but the format has sped up tremendously on the battlefield and although Persecutor is a beating, Crusader is its own separate win condition entity. In addition with Jitte, the game can effectively end in as soon as three hits. The card is a problem by itself, which is exactly what we want, because we are working to squeeze every last bit threat-wise out of each creature in the deck.

Sure, Goyf can block it. That is unless of course an opponent actually sticks a Goyf against you (which should not happen that often).

And I am also looking into Dark Ritual as a supplement here.
What are your thoughts on Phyrexian Vatmother as supplement for the Crusader then?

[Augustas]

I'm very.. very dissapointed. Now it's gonna be called The Poisonous Crusaders or what?

It's hard for me to accept this because I'm one of those few people who actually plays this deck in tournaments. So now what, everyone's gonna dump Percys and add Dark Rituals and Crusaders because Hollywood says it's good?

[Michael Keller]

I am playing both Crusader and Persecutor, for reference.

[maximumcarnage]

OK. I'll start doing some testing with the Crusader to see how he pans out. I don't see what it can hurt to try him.

@ Hollywood-

So you're a pretty big Halloween fan, huh?

[Augustas]

Maybe you can provide a sketch of a decklist?

[sporenfrosch1411]

At the moment, i am not very convinced about the Crusader. Sure he is somewhat of a good beater BUT Infect in the matter of poisoning is like opening another 10 life for an opponent who you maybe allready dealt some damage to......
I mean, ye, Persecutor is expensive @ cc4 but he does a great job. I just swapped out 2 Persecutor for 2 Crusaders in the "normal" list and have to say that it doesn't draw like this would be better (just goldfishing so far)
Also i won't agree that Persecutor needs 4 hits - in most cases he took a maximum of 3 hits to finish of my opponent, and comparing this to the 5 hits Crusader needs.....i really don't know about this.

I am looking forward to your choices and list, i would be happy to be convinced that Crusader is good here, but at the moment i can't imagine how this is working out.
By the way ""Ritual? U sewiuz?""

So the plan will be Turn1 Ritual into Crusader (while thinking: "please dont have a Force, please dont have a Force") and removing every part of whatever meat your opponent drops on the table to protect himself?


well, enough with the riddle-games, i want to see this list....
:D

[bakofried]

Seriously man, that was one of the premises of the deck. Although testing Phyrexian Crusader is interesting, Dark Ritual requires a serious reworking of the deck; does it follow the premises of the Gate anymore?
*Edit
I utilized every piece of logic I had at my disposal, zealotly opposed the inclusion of Dark Rit. in any Gate list, and now we have this turnaround? I don't think I can show my face on the salvation boards again if this pans out.

[Michael Keller]

I'm working on the list more right now. I really like Crusader, and I think he is better than we give him credit for. I have room for him in my sideboard against decks like Zoo and Counterbalance (w/ Firespout).

Retooling a deck that needs serious retooling in an environment now where Aether Vial is far more prevalent means we need to speed up the clock for our opponents. We need to generate some speed here; I'm just sensing this in testing. It's certainly not easy and because I've been away from the deck a while, entertaining ideas would help.

I'll have it up shortly.

maximum: Yes, a huge Halloween fan. I have a "Magic Pumpkin" play-mat, deck box with pumpkins, and orange and black dice.

[dropkickdude]

Seriously man, that was one of the premises of the deck. Although testing Phyrexian Crusader is interesting, Dark Ritual requires a serious reworking of the deck; does it follow the premises of the Gate anymore?
*Edit
I utilized every piece of logic I had at my disposal, zealotly opposed the inclusion of Dark Rit. in any Gate list, and now we have this turnaround? I don't think I can show my face on the salvation boards again if this pans out.

Agreed 100%. Except for the part about Sally. You're fervent in your belief and a little overzealous sometimes, but you're no troll. You'll always be welcome there.

Edit: Meant to also say that I eagerly await any testing from the creator of the deck that I love so very, very much.