[Deck] The Gate

[DarkJester]

And that it does not carry a Jitte... seems clear to me which card is definitely better.

[Zirath]

And that it does not carry a Jitte... seems clear to me which card is definitely better.

That only applies here. Some decks, like Junk or BUG do not necessarily play equipment. Jitte is an extra argument in the case of the Gate.

[Kich867]

That only applies here. Some decks, like Junk or BUG do not necessarily play equipment. Jitte is an extra argument in the case of the Gate.

Junk runs jitte as well, and Bob is strictly better in that deck. BUG also doesn't run Bob / shouldn't run bob if they do in the face of Jace / Forces.

[Zirath]

Junk runs jitte as well, and Bob is strictly better in that deck. BUG also doesn't run Bob / shouldn't run bob if they do in the face of Jace / Forces.

Not all Junk lists run Jitte and a lot of BUG lists run Bob despite Force/Jace. Even Team two years ago when it was big ran Bob.

[abetman]

Don't BUG and Rock/Junk run Top? (Minimizing Bob damage)

Anyway, what do you guys think about a Modern version of The Gate?

What could be used as replacements for Jitte and Bitterblossom?

[dsck]

Don't BUG and Rock/Junk run Top? (Minimizing Bob damage)

Anyway, what do you guys think about a Modern version of The Gate?

What could be used as replacements for Jitte and Bitterblossom?

It doesnt work well in Modern, at all. Also this is legacy discussion.

[Greenpoe]

Don't BUG and Rock/Junk run Top? (Minimizing Bob damage)

Anyway, what do you guys think about a Modern version of The Gate?

What could be used as replacements for Jitte and Bitterblossom?

In Modern, you have to go for BW for anything that's Gate-esque to work. You need playsets of Bob, Nighthawk, Gatekeeper, Thalia, Tidehollow Sculler, Liliana, Obliterator, Inquistion/Thoughtseize, and probably a combination of Damnation and Mirran Crusader. Possibly Deathrite Shaman could fit in as well.

[whineyface]

I'm gonna be playing in a side event for GP Sydney next month and I need to finalize my decklist...

16 Swamp
4 Wasteland
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
3 Dark Confidant
2 Abyssal Persecutor
1 Street Wraith

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Bitterblossom
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Innocent Blood
2 Darkblast

2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Umezawa's Jitte

3 Undecided Slots

I am unsure of what to put in the last three slots. I think it'll either be 3 Faerie Macabre, or 2 Faerie and 1 more Innocent Blood, or 3 Deathrite Shaman.

Sideboard is still really up-in-the-air, I think it will look something like this;

3 Leyline of the Void / Ravenous Trap
3 Dystopia / Powder Keg
3 Spinning Darkness / Soul Spike
3 Phyrexian Revoker / Pithing Needle
3 Big Game Hunter / Shriekmaw

What do you guys think?

[Greenpoe]

3 Dark Confidant
1 Street Wraith

-1 Street Wraith
+1 Confidant
+1 Liliana

Street Wraith is awful. You were considering Deathrite Shaman, but gets worse with Innocent Blood. If you go for Shaman, you could throw in a bit of green (you'd definitely want fetches anyway) and could get a few Abrupt Decay to replace Innocent Blood.

[namrufmot]

What threats does Darkblast handle?

[CabalTherapy]

What threats does Darkblast handle?

Just a few important or less important:
Grim Lavamancer
Unflipped Delver
Deathrite Shaman (play it during the upkeep, dredge, play again)
Mother of Runes
Noble Hierarch
Dryad Arbor
Goblin Lackey
Memnite
Lingering Souls Token
Dark Confidant
Thalia
Venidlion Clique

Darkblast is a beast.

[whineyface]

-1 Street Wraith
+1 Confidant
+1 Liliana

Street Wraith is awful. You were considering Deathrite Shaman, but gets worse with Innocent Blood. If you go for Shaman, you could throw in a bit of green (you'd definitely want fetches anyway) and could get a few Abrupt Decay to replace Innocent Blood.

Obviously it is awful, but i thought it was obvious I didnt have a fourth confidant otherwise id be running it... It is a $50 card, and I live in Australia, older stuff isnt exactly plentiful. If i can borrow one ill run it. I also prefer liliana as a two-of.

Darkblast is recurring removal for mana dorks, lingering souls tokens, delvers, confidants, lackeys, vendilion clique, etc
I think smother might be better in an unknown meta though.

[namrufmot]

Just a few important or less important:
Grim Lavamancer
Unflipped Delver
Deathrite Shaman (play it during the upkeep, dredge, play again)
Mother of Runes
Noble Hierarch
Dryad Arbor
Goblin Lackey
Memnite
Lingering Souls Token
Dark Confidant
Thalia
Venidlion Clique

Darkblast is a beast.

Thanks....Without playing the deck (yet) I'm just afraid that Darkblast can't handle any big creatures...Smother (a turn slower and 2cc) can handle pretty much ANY creature in the format...hmm

[whineyface]

Thanks....Without playing the deck (yet) I'm just afraid that Darkblast can't handle any big creatures...Smother (a turn slower and 2cc) can handle pretty much ANY creature in the format...hmm

This is what sacrifice effects are for. Liliana, Gatekeeper and Innocent Blood are your main threat removal spells.

[namrufmot]

This is what sacrifice effects are for. Liliana, Gatekeeper and Innocent Blood are your main threat removal spells.

Thanks again...just trying to feel the deck out before I start to play. Why not use funeral charm over darkblast then? is it just because darkblast can be reused?

[dsck]

Thanks again...just trying to feel the deck out before I start to play. Why not use funeral charm over darkblast then? is it just because darkblast can be reused?

With Deathrite Shaman being very popular and flipped Delvers smashing face I think Disfigure is best 1 mana removal spell right now.

I have been testing with this list:
4 Abyssal Persecutor
4 Dark Confidant
3 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
1 Victim of Night
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Go for the Throat
3 Bitterblossom
3 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Duress
2 Cabal Therapy
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Disfigure
4 Innocent Blood
19 Swamp

SB: 2 Dark Ritual
SB: 2 Dystopia
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Engineered Plague
SB: 1 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 2 Dread of Night
SB: 1 Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 1 Big Game Hunter
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage

[namrufmot]

How does this deck handle Planeswalkers?

[whineyface]

How does this deck handle Planeswalkers?

Sideboard needles or revokers, or turning on our aggro strategy if our discard doesn't get rid of them already.

[namrufmot]

Last question for a while...how do we handle artifacts and enchantments? Dystopia can handle some enchantments, but how about the pesky Chalice, Batterskull, or Jitte? (assuming we can't get them to discard). Is Ratchet really the best/only option?

Have we tried Gate to Phyrexia?

[MGB]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=138289&d=1357103047

This new BBB Specter looks intriguing.

Think of it as a black flying Ophidian that, instead of drawing cards from your own deck, steals cards from the top of your opponent's deck and puts them into a second "hand" in your exile zone.

In addition to Dark Confidant this could be a nice new way to generate card advantage in this deck. And a 2/3 flying body for 3 black mana is not terrible on its own.

[MoxBropal]

Friday night I tried running 2x Darkblast in place of the usual 2x Smother I run in the main. Here's how it went:

Match 1 against Junk Control - Deathrite Shamans all over the place. I never had to the opportunity to Darkblast in upkeep, dredge, and Darkblast again. I feel like although it could work, its quite the corner case. I was missing Smother big time.

Match 2 against TES - Didn't really matter here.

Match 3 against Merfolk - All these dudes are 2/2 or bigger. Darkblast was practically dead in my hand most of the time. I agree that Disfigure or Smother would just be better in an unknown meta.

Also, do you guys think Affinity is a threat anymore? Can we go back to Go For the Throat?

[Admiral_Arzar]

Also, do you guys think Affinity is a threat anymore? Can we go back to Go For the Throat?

I've been playing 3x Go for the Throat for a while now, and it's been pretty good. I've hit Affinity once and Imperial Painter a couple of times, but I've also killed Tombstalkers and Angels that Smother or Doom Blade wouldn't have hit. I think GFFT is fine as long as your meta isn't overrun by these kind of decks - mine has one regular Painter player, and one Affinity player who only rarely shows up. There are however several tempo players and a lot of G/B/x midrange decks, so I have to worry about black creatures (especially Tombstalkers). Darkblast is ineffective against too many common creatures for it to be main-deckable IMO.


[url]

In addition to Dark Confidant this could be a nice new way to generate card advantage in this deck. And a 2/3 flying body for 3 black mana is not terrible on its own.

He seems interesting but does not seem better than Gatekeeper or Vampire Nighthawk, both of whom fulfill essential purposes in this deck.

EDIT: I can post a mini-report from the last weekly I went to assuming anyone cares and I can actually find my notes.

[DarkJester]

I would read it.

[nevilshute]

I'm planning to build a deck similar to this. Would love to play with Crypt Ghast. What do people think about it in this deck? http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=138377&d=1357275757

[baghdadbob]

I would read it.

+1

[namrufmot]

So I took The Gate to a local 12 man tounry tonight.....AND IT SUCKED! I'm not sure if it was the matchups or just awful hands but I got ass-whooped in all three rounds.

4 Dark Confidant
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Vampire Nighthawk
3 Abyssal Persecutor
3 Bitterblossom

3 Innocent Blood
3 Victim of Night
1 Disfigure
4 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
1 Duress
3 Hymn to Tourach

2 Umezawa's Jitte

18 Swamp
1 Urbog
3 Wasteland

All in all a pretty typical Gate deck. Round one I go against High Tide and I sit there and play with myself while he goes off on turn 3. I did manage to Thoughtseize him turn one (I got a High Tide) but turn two he FOW my Hymn and my lone BOB sat there and watched me lose. Game 2 I SB in my Thorns and still manage to get a hand full of Gatekeepers and Nighthawks. Turn one I Cabal and call High Tide....and miss. I sac my own Bob turn two and nail two Wishes. He still goes off turn three with Candleabras and I lose. Now sure what else I could have done as my discard and Thorns (which I never drew) didn't even slow him down.

Round two I go against Goblins. Much better matchup I'm thinking. Game one he drop Lackey and I Innocent Blood, etc. Eventually he gets a Ringleader and I can't keep up with the removal. A Sharpshooter wiped out all my tokens and BOB in one turn for example while I'm dropping a Gatekeeper to kill a Matron. :eyebrow: Game two he gets mana screwed and I Waste his only Taiga so he starts very slow. My BOB whittled my life down to like 8 and BOB/Percy get him down to 6. I could have gone for lethal but I had no way to kill Percy. I lose a close game and never drew my Plaques.

Round three I go against Reanimator. Game one I Victim of Night Gris before he brings it right back the next turn. I make him sac it AGAIN but he brings it back a third time!! He just stomps me down till I die. Game two I SB in my Faeries. I use Thoughtseize to get a few early Brainstorms and Ponders out of his hand but he draws into the spells he needs. BOB and the Gatekeeper peck away for a few turns before he dumps Gris into the graveyard and I zap it with the Faerie. He then Entombs for Iona and I weep when he calls black the next turn.

Was it just horribe matchups?? Thoughtseize and Victim of Night were the best performers of the night. The kid had to read the card when I killed Gris with it haha. BOB was solid when he stuck around as usual. As a whole, however, the deck never felt very powerful. What gives? I wanted to throw the deck out the window!

[MaximumC]

So I took The Gate to a local 12 man tounry tonight.....AND IT SUCKED! I'm not sure if it was the matchups or just awful hands but I got ass-whooped in all three rounds.

4 Dark Confidant
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Vampire Nighthawk
3 Abyssal Persecutor
3 Bitterblossom

3 Innocent Blood
3 Victim of Night
1 Disfigure
4 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
1 Duress
3 Hymn to Tourach

2 Umezawa's Jitte

18 Swamp
1 Urbog
3 Wasteland

All in all a pretty typical Gate deck. Round one I go against High Tide and I sit there and play with myself while he goes off on turn 3. I did manage to Thoughtseize him turn one (I got a High Tide) but turn two he FOW my Hymn and my lone BOB sat there and watched me lose. Game 2 I SB in my Thorns and still manage to get a hand full of Gatekeepers and Nighthawks. Turn one I Cabal and call High Tide....and miss. I sac my own Bob turn two and nail two Wishes. He still goes off turn three with Candleabras and I lose. Now sure what else I could have done as my discard and Thorns (which I never drew) didn't even slow him down.

Round two I go against Goblins. Much better matchup I'm thinking. Game one he drop Lackey and I Innocent Blood, etc. Eventually he gets a Ringleader and I can't keep up with the removal. A Sharpshooter wiped out all my tokens and BOB in one turn for example while I'm dropping a Gatekeeper to kill a Matron. :eyebrow: Game two he gets mana screwed and I Waste his only Taiga so he starts very slow. My BOB whittled my life down to like 8 and BOB/Percy get him down to 6. I could have gone for lethal but I had no way to kill Percy. I lose a close game and never drew my Plaques.

Round three I go against Reanimator. Game one I Victim of Night Gris before he brings it right back the next turn. I make him sac it AGAIN but he brings it back a third time!! He just stomps me down till I die. Game two I SB in my Faeries. I use Thoughtseize to get a few early Brainstorms and Ponders out of his hand but he draws into the spells he needs. BOB and the Gatekeeper peck away for a few turns before he dumps Gris into the graveyard and I zap it with the Faerie. He then Entombs for Iona and I weep when he calls black the next turn.

Was it just horribe matchups?? Thoughtseize and Victim of Night were the best performers of the night. The kid had to read the card when I killed Gris with it haha. BOB was solid when he stuck around as usual. As a whole, however, the deck never felt very powerful. What gives? I wanted to throw the deck out the window!

What did you sideboard?

Goblins -> Engineered Plague, Phyrexian Crusader
High Tide -> Thorn of Amethyst
Reanimator -> Faerie Macabre

If you mull into your silver bullets against those decks, I fail to see how you could lose. Did you keep hands with no hate for the enemy deck and just hope for the best....? Reminds me of the semifinals at the last Denver SCG Open. This guy running 4 FOW is up against Belcher, and he DOES NOT MULL TO FORCE OF WILL. What the hell did he expect?

[Admiral_Arzar]

I could have gone for lethal but I had no way to kill Percy. I lose a close game and never drew my Plaques.

Round three I go against Reanimator. Game one I Victim of Night Gris before he brings it right back the next turn. I make him sac it AGAIN but he brings it back a third time!! He just stomps me down till I die. Game two I SB in my Faeries. I use Thoughtseize to get a few early Brainstorms and Ponders out of his hand but he draws into the spells he needs. BOB and the Gatekeeper peck away for a few turns before he dumps Gris into the graveyard and I zap it with the Faerie. He then Entombs for Iona and I weep when he calls black the next turn.


Time for me to get up on my anti-Persecutor soapbox. Seriously, the card is awful - it was bad in standard (I tried, believe me) and it's not better in Legacy. Sure, it's a big flyer for a cheap cost, but you WILL lose games due to the drawback no matter how well your deck is built to adjust to it. Play Obliterator and be happy (you may want to cut down to 2 Wastelands if you do though, BBBB is hard). Watching your opponent scratching their head to try and figure out how to block or attack into an Obliterator is hilarious, and the card has won me a ton of games.

ReAnimator can be a hard matchup, I would recommend Extirpates over Faerie as it has more applications and nails all copies of a card.

[MaximumC]

Time for me to get up on my anti-Persecutor soapbox. Seriously, the card is awful - it was bad in standard (I tried, believe me) and it's not better in Legacy. Sure, it's a big flyer for a cheap cost, but you WILL lose games due to the drawback no matter how well your deck is built to adjust to it. Play Obliterator and be happy (you may want to cut down to 2 Wastelands if you do though, BBBB is hard). Watching your opponent scratching their head to try and figure out how to block or attack into an Obliterator is hilarious, and the card has won me a ton of games.

ReAnimator can be a hard matchup, I would recommend Extirpates over Faerie as it has more applications and nails all copies of a card.

I've played an Open series and at least three smaller tournaments with The Gate and never had a problem offing it. You run the list with 4x Cabal, 4x Blood, and 4x Gatekeeper? In what bizarro land are you winning with your 4-drop and can't find one of these...?

Obliterator is fine, but he prevents you from running Wasteland and he can sometimes cost you a critical final turn if they can chump him and counter attack. Percy is guaranteed 6 damage in the air, usually.

[Admiral_Arzar]

I've played an Open series and at least three smaller tournaments with The Gate and never had a problem offing it. You run the list with 4x Cabal, 4x Blood, and 4x Gatekeeper? In what bizarro land are you winning with your 4-drop and can't find one of these...?

Obliterator is fine, but he prevents you from running Wasteland and he can sometimes cost you a critical final turn if they can chump him and counter attack. Percy is guaranteed 6 damage in the air, usually.

The bizarro land you're referring to is the poster I was replying to actually losing games to Persecutor's drawback. It does happen, as evidenced by his report. If your opponent actually blocks Obliterator, they usually have bigger problems on their hands (like sacrificing their board). It also doesn't "prevent" you from running Wasteland, but I would recommend 2 Wasteland as the correct number if you don't want to get screwed. It's not like this deck really needs Wasteland that much anyways - in my experience it's mostly insurance for rare situations like Maze of Ith or Tabernacle.


Alright, here's my promised mini-report from last weekend. I played this list:

4 Dark Confidant
3 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Phyrexian Obliterator

4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
3 Innocent Blood
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Go for the Throat

2 Bitterblossom
2 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Liliana of the Veil

2 Wasteland
21 Swamp

Sideboard
3 Pithing Needle
4 Extirpate
3 Ratchet Bomb
3 Engineered Plague
2 Damnation

Round one was against BUG/Team America. Game one I was on the play but had a slow hand. I took two hits from Delver in order to play my removal around Daze, and then killed it with something or other. I Gatekeeper'd a Goyf and then started swinging, killed some other stuff and then dropped Obliterator which got there. Game two I savagely punted, after boarding in a couple of needles expecting Jace. I played some dudes which died or got countered, and then my opponent dropped Tombstalker. When I untapped, my hand was Hymn, GFFT, GFFT and I had 2 lands in play. My opponent had two cards in hand. I hymned away the two cards, my opponent ripped Hymn and discarded both my GFFTs...greed loses games kids. I drew a couple Nighthawks which held off the 'Stalker, but they eventually died and I never saw another removal spell, dying to the flying demon. Game three we whittled each other's hands down with discard and I landed an Obliterator. My opponent, however, slammed Jace and proceeded to ride him to victory (I had boarded my needles back out after not seeing Jace or Deed in game 2). I never drew another creature and 4-drops without haste can't kill Jace, especially when your opponent draws Tarmogoyf.

Loss 1-2

Round two was against Imperial Painter (damn you GFFT...). Game one my opponent mulled to five and then I wrecked him with discard + removal, winning on the back of Obliterator. Game two I boarded in Needles, a couple Extirpates, and Ratchet Bombs. I needled Sensei's Divining Top instead of Grindstone and payed for it by dying on turn 3 (didn't think he had both halves of the combo in his hand). Game three I killed and Extirpated Painter's Servant, and then started beating down with Nighthawks. My opponent was at 4 staring down my double Nighthawk when he managed to top into Ensnaring Bridge with no cards in hand. Curses! The game then became a giant wankfest as we played multiple Needles and Phyrexian Revokers naming basically everything important. Long story short, this game went to time as once Ratchet Bomb got Revoker'd neither of us had a way to destroy anything relevant. I wish I had boarded in Damnation or Engineered Plague (naming horror kills ALL the Revokers lol).

Draw 1-1-1

Round 3 (U/B Tempo)

This opponent is playing a U/B Delver variant with Delver, Tombstalker, lots of discard, and Creeping Tar Pit. Game one I get hit a couple times by Delver and discard spells while drawing a bunch of cards off Bob, and then land Liliana (killing Delver) followed by Obliterator and get there. Game two I get beat up by an unflipped (!) Delver for a few turns and eventually land Bob and then Gatekeeper to kill Delver. Obliterator follows and gets there. GFFT was awesome in this matchup, killing one or two Tombstalkers IIRC.

Win 2-0

Round 4 (Burn)

Oh god why must I get matched up against Burn while playing mono-black. Round one I mulligan from mana-screw into more mana-screw, eventually keeping a sketchy five and dying to triple Goblin Guide (they didn't even draw me lands that's how bad the screw was lol). I board out Thoughtseize and Bitterblossom for some nonsense (I think Ratchet Bomb or something) to minimize my life loss. Game two was a straight race, eventually I land a Nighthawk and then an Obliterator after wrecking my opponent's hand with discard (he was unable to draw a 3-damage spell to back up the Fireblast he had in hand when I was at 7, so I got lucky that last turn). Game three I think I dropped Hymn + Lili + Obliterator and the latter went all the way (burn can't kill him without nuking their board lol).

Win 2-1, although it was by the skin of my teeth.

My final record was 2-1-1, which hilariously enough got me into the top four split and enough store credit to buy a Japanese Umezawa's Jitte out of the case (to complement my awkwardly half-Japanese deck). It also kept up my streak of top 4s every time I play this deck, prompting the store owner to request I stop winning with mono black (lol). Mission accomplished!

Some thoughts. First off, I'm cutting an Obliterator. The guy is nuts, but too many times I find myself stuck with two in hand unable to find the fourth land. The cut will bring me back down to 60 cards which is probably where I should be. That day was the first time I played Bitterblossom but I have no thoughts to offer because I never drew it (sad because I found a sick Russian one!). I guess I did board it out against Burn, but in the other matchups it never showed up. I realize now that I should have boarded in Extirpate instead of Ratchet Bomb against burn because if offs Hellspark Elemental...not really good but Ratchet Bomb is slow and bad against them anyways. GFFT sucks against Imperial Painter, but it killed enough Tombstalkers that day to be worth its spot. I still think it's the best spot removal we can play in black. Well, I hope y'all enjoyed the first time I ever took notes at a tournament lol.

[MoxBropal]

Nice report, thanks!
I've been toying with the idea of going back to Go For the Throat as spot removal. I haven't seen Affinity at my LGS at all, so I think the coast is clear.
When you drop Obliterator, what will you add?

[baghdadbob]

The bizarro land you're referring to is the poster I was replying to actually losing games to Persecutor's drawback. It does happen, as evidenced by his report. If your opponent actually blocks Obliterator, they usually have bigger problems on their hands (like sacrificing their board). It also doesn't "prevent" you from running Wasteland, but I would recommend 2 Wasteland as the correct number if you don't want to get screwed. It's not like this deck really needs Wasteland that much anyways - in my experience it's mostly insurance for rare situations like Maze of Ith or Tabernacle.


Alright, here's my promised mini-report from last weekend. I played this list:

4 Dark Confidant
3 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Phyrexian Obliterator

4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
3 Innocent Blood
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Go for the Throat

2 Bitterblossom
2 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Liliana of the Veil

2 Wasteland
21 Swamp

Sideboard
3 Pithing Needle
4 Extirpate
3 Ratchet Bomb
3 Engineered Plague
2 Damnation

Round one was against BUG/Team America. Game one I was on the play but had a slow hand. I took two hits from Delver in order to play my removal around Daze, and then killed it with something or other. I Gatekeeper'd a Goyf and then started swinging, killed some other stuff and then dropped Obliterator which got there. Game two I savagely punted, after boarding in a couple of needles expecting Jace. I played some dudes which died or got countered, and then my opponent dropped Tombstalker. When I untapped, my hand was Hymn, GFFT, GFFT and I had 2 lands in play. My opponent had two cards in hand. I hymned away the two cards, my opponent ripped Hymn and discarded both my GFFTs...greed loses games kids. I drew a couple Nighthawks which held off the 'Stalker, but they eventually died and I never saw another removal spell, dying to the flying demon. Game three we whittled each other's hands down with discard and I landed an Obliterator. My opponent, however, slammed Jace and proceeded to ride him to victory (I had boarded my needles back out after not seeing Jace or Deed in game 2). I never drew another creature and 4-drops without haste can't kill Jace, especially when your opponent draws Tarmogoyf.

Loss 1-2

Round two was against Imperial Painter (damn you GFFT...). Game one my opponent mulled to five and then I wrecked him with discard + removal, winning on the back of Obliterator. Game two I boarded in Needles, a couple Extirpates, and Ratchet Bombs. I needled Sensei's Divining Top instead of Grindstone and payed for it by dying on turn 3 (didn't think he had both halves of the combo in his hand). Game three I killed and Extirpated Painter's Servant, and then started beating down with Nighthawks. My opponent was at 4 staring down my double Nighthawk when he managed to top into Ensnaring Bridge with no cards in hand. Curses! The game then became a giant wankfest as we played multiple Needles and Phyrexian Revokers naming basically everything important. Long story short, this game went to time as once Ratchet Bomb got Revoker'd neither of us had a way to destroy anything relevant. I wish I had boarded in Damnation or Engineered Plague (naming horror kills ALL the Revokers lol).

Draw 1-1-1

Round 3 (U/B Tempo)

This opponent is playing a U/B Delver variant with Delver, Tombstalker, lots of discard, and Creeping Tar Pit. Game one I get hit a couple times by Delver and discard spells while drawing a bunch of cards off Bob, and then land Liliana (killing Delver) followed by Obliterator and get there. Game two I get beat up by an unflipped (!) Delver for a few turns and eventually land Bob and then Gatekeeper to kill Delver. Obliterator follows and gets there. GFFT was awesome in this matchup, killing one or two Tombstalkers IIRC.

Win 2-0

Round 4 (Burn)

Oh god why must I get matched up against Burn while playing mono-black. Round one I mulligan from mana-screw into more mana-screw, eventually keeping a sketchy five and dying to triple Goblin Guide (they didn't even draw me lands that's how bad the screw was lol). I board out Thoughtseize and Bitterblossom for some nonsense (I think Ratchet Bomb or something) to minimize my life loss. Game two was a straight race, eventually I land a Nighthawk and then an Obliterator after wrecking my opponent's hand with discard (he was unable to draw a 3-damage spell to back up the Fireblast he had in hand when I was at 7, so I got lucky that last turn). Game three I think I dropped Hymn + Lili + Obliterator and the latter went all the way (burn can't kill him without nuking their board lol).

Win 2-1, although it was by the skin of my teeth.

My final record was 2-1-1, which hilariously enough got me into the top four split and enough store credit to buy a Japanese Umezawa's Jitte out of the case (to complement my awkwardly half-Japanese deck). It also kept up my streak of top 4s every time I play this deck, prompting the store owner to request I stop winning with mono black (lol). Mission accomplished!

Some thoughts. First off, I'm cutting an Obliterator. The guy is nuts, but too many times I find myself stuck with two in hand unable to find the fourth land. The cut will bring me back down to 60 cards which is probably where I should be. That day was the first time I played Bitterblossom but I have no thoughts to offer because I never drew it (sad because I found a sick Russian one!). I guess I did board it out against Burn, but in the other matchups it never showed up. I realize now that I should have boarded in Extirpate instead of Ratchet Bomb against burn because if offs Hellspark Elemental...not really good but Ratchet Bomb is slow and bad against them anyways. GFFT sucks against Imperial Painter, but it killed enough Tombstalkers that day to be worth its spot. I still think it's the best spot removal we can play in black. Well, I hope y'all enjoyed the first time I ever took notes at a tournament lol.

Mad props! Obliterator is one of my favorite magic cards but I know what you mean about having two in your opening hand. You really don't often even want one in your opening hand at all. I'm also not 100% sold on innocent blood. My list just runs a combination of edicts/go for the throat. The extra 1 mana is totally worth it to me. I could definitely see running him if you were still running abyssal persecutor like in the original list. But running it because it is one mana cheaper and can potentially kill your Bob if you are too low on health doesn't cut it for me. Thanks for posting the report!

[Admiral_Arzar]

Nice report, thanks!
I've been toying with the idea of going back to Go For the Throat as spot removal. I haven't seen Affinity at my LGS at all, so I think the coast is clear.
When you drop Obliterator, what will you add?

Nothing. I realized my list was 61 cards, so dropping one copy of Obliterator will put me back at 60.


Mad props! Obliterator is one of my favorite magic cards but I know what you mean about having two in your opening hand. You really don't often even want one in your opening hand at all. I'm also not 100% sold on innocent blood. My list just runs a combination of edicts/go for the throat. The extra 1 mana is totally worth it to me. I could definitely see running him if you were still running abyssal persecutor like in the original list. But running it because it is one mana cheaper and can potentially kill your Bob if you are too low on health doesn't cut it for me. Thanks for posting the report!

Thanks. I run Innocent Blood because there's Goblins in my meta (being on the draw against Lackey is just asking for a blowout if you run no one-mana removal) and also a lot of Deathrite Shaman. Also, it gets around Daze to kill early Delvers much more easily then a 2-mana spell would, and there's also a lot of tempo where I play. Yeah, having to sac your own dudes sometimes sucks, but the upsides outweigh that drawback for me, and you have plenty of other removal that doesn't force you to sac your own guys. I do board it out rather often though (primarily against Lingering Souls abuse) but it's very solid in most match-ups.

[Greenpoe]

Nothing. I realized my list was 61 cards, so dropping one copy of Obliterator will put me back at 60.



Thanks. I run Innocent Blood because there's Goblins in my meta (being on the draw against Lackey is just asking for a blowout if you run no one-mana removal) and also a lot of Deathrite Shaman. Also, it gets around Daze to kill early Delvers much more easily then a 2-mana spell would, and there's also a lot of tempo where I play. Yeah, having to sac your own dudes sometimes sucks, but the upsides outweigh that drawback for me, and you have plenty of other removal that doesn't force you to sac your own guys. I do board it out rather often though (primarily against Lingering Souls abuse) but it's very solid in most match-ups.

You might want to give Disfigure a shot. Answers everything you mentioned at instant speed without the drawback.

[Admiral_Arzar]

You might want to give Disfigure a shot. Answers everything you mentioned at instant speed without the drawback.

Yeah... However, it doesn't kill Tarmogoyfs, Tombstalkers, Countryside Crushers, Progeniti, Emrakuls, Griselbrand, etc. and I have all of those in my meta. Innocent Blood kills everything, which is worth the drawback for me.

[MoxBropal]

So I feel like one of The Gate's weaknesses is it can get into topdeck mode way too early...does Blood Scrivener deserve a try? Anyone think this guy is playable?

[imnotbrown]

So I feel like one of The Gate's weaknesses is it can get into topdeck mode way too early...does Blood Scrivener deserve a try? Anyone think this guy is playable?

Honestly, there isn't much that Blood Scrivener will do that confidant can't. They both draw you an additional card. Ther difference is that confidant will no matter what, while conditions have to be met for scrivener to activate. Also, if both are run, the confidant trigger cancels out scrivener.

[Valech]

Run Tops. Will enable Scrivener to work even with a Confidant on the field.

[imnotbrown]

Run Tops. Will enable Scrivener to work even with a Confidant on the field.

How is that? If you tap top to draw two, then you will just re draw the top with confidant. You basically drew one extra, but the top is no longer on the field.

[Valech]

How is that? If you tap top to draw two, then you will just re draw the top with confidant. You basically drew one extra, but the top is no longer on the field.

Top in play, Scrivener in play, Bob in play. Upkeep. Confidant triggers. In resp, use Top. Draw a card. Because hellbent, draw 2 cards. Put Top on top (no pun intended). Confidant resolves. Get 1 damage throu top. Draw step. Draw card. Result: Bob in play, Scrivener in play, 4 cards in hand, one of them being Top. I think this is a rather nice way to ensure maximum drawing and only losing 1 life to Bob. Also, Top only costs 1 Mana, an amount you shouldn´t be worried about in Turn 4.

[Michael Keller]

Wound up taking down the local (5-1) with a "watered" down version of The Gate this past Thursday.

I also tossed in four Headless Horseman at the last minute for good measure. I can't even remember the deck list because I had to makeshift it at the last minute rushing from work to the tournament. One of the Horseman actually rode a Jitte to victory against U/R Delver.

[KobeBryan]

Wound up taking down the local (5-1) with a "watered" down version of The Gate this past Thursday.

I also tossed in four Headless Horseman at the last minute for good measure. I can't even remember the deck list because I had to makeshift it at the last minute rushing from work to the tournament. One of the Horseman actually rode a Jitte to victory against U/R Delver.

congrats...this guy is worse than a hyppie

[lordofthepit]

I also tossed in four Headless Horseman at the last minute for good measure. I can't even remember the deck list because I had to makeshift it at the last minute rushing from work to the tournament. One of the Horseman actually rode a Jitte to victory against U/R Delver.

Good god

[igri_is_a_bk]

2 Marsh Flats
2 Bloodstained Mire
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Polluted Delta
7 Swamp
3 Bayou

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Phyrexian Obliterator

4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Bitterblossom
4 Liliana of the Veil
//
4 Faerie Macabre
2 Mesmeric Fiend
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Bitterblossom
2 Damnation

Deathrite Shaman seems too good to be ignored. He had to be included. Same goes for Abrupt Decay. As a condition of DRS, fetches became necessary, but most lists were playing Top anyways. Why weren't those of you with Tops using them? Anyways, that was an easy change and three Bayous didn't stretch the mana base too harshly. I don't think you should have to guess with your removal, like one Go for the Throat, one Smother, one Edict, etc. You can sb those cards if you want and play the universally good Abrupt Decay in your mb. That's just what makes sense to me. Are many people on the green splash?

[Hardcore]

That is the 'Death and Taxes' shell, isn't it?

[Seraph2k]

Are many people on the green splash?

No! Cause we play the gate.... and not eva green..

[Sughayyer]

No! Cause we play the gate.... and not eva green..

Eva Green is a totally different deck, tempo-oriented. I think the green splash for drs and decay is a smart idea. BW deadguy ale did the same splash and the deck's name didn't became "the rock" automatically.

[beez]

Would Abrupt Decay replace Innocent Blood as to not sac the DRS?

[igri_is_a_bk]

That is the 'Death and Taxes' shell, isn't it?

What?


Would Abrupt Decay replace Innocent Blood as to not sac the DRS?

Yes.

The mb would mostly look like what I posted. Some people are gonna tweak here and there, but that's the gist of it.

[beez]

What?



Yes.

The mb would mostly look like what I posted. Some people are gonna tweak here and there, but that's the gist of it.

Would you still use Obliterator with Green, as you would be super Bayou dependent with the 4B cost? Without Innocent Bloods Percy doesn't make as much sense either. Maybe Desecration Demon? I know it's not really a respected card, but I've forced people into some difficult choices with him before. Hell, IDK. Let's not get to far away from the Gate's purpose. Keep the Bloods, AND the Decays, all 4 Bitterblossoms, 4 Hymns, 4 Gatekeepers and go from there to figure out the finisher. could be several creatures or methods.

[Sughayyer]

Would you still use Obliterator with Green, as you would be super Bayou dependent with the 4B cost? Without Innocent Bloods Percy doesn't make as much sense either. Maybe Desecration Demon? I know it's not really a respected card, but I've forced people into some difficult choices with him before. Hell, IDK. Let's not get to far away from the Gate's purpose. Keep the Bloods, AND the Decays, all 4 Bitterblossoms, 4 Hymns, 4 Gatekeepers and go from there to figure out the finisher. could be several creatures or methods.

I would still keep the innocent bloods (around 3). The risk of getting the bayou wasted is worth it since with drs you could have a turn 3 obliterator as well :cool:
I would also ad something like maelstrom pulse on the sideboard, because it has a broader range than decay, and also helps with annoying planeswalkers (but bitterblossom already does that, so maybe it's not needed)

[igri_is_a_bk]

Would you still use Obliterator with Green, as you would be super Bayou dependent with the 4B cost? Without Innocent Bloods Percy doesn't make as much sense either. Maybe Desecration Demon? I know it's not really a respected card, but I've forced people into some difficult choices with him before. Hell, IDK. Let's not get to far away from the Gate's purpose. Keep the Bloods, AND the Decays, all 4 Bitterblossoms, 4 Hymns, 4 Gatekeepers and go from there to figure out the finisher. could be several creatures or methods.

This is still a heavily black-based deck with seven basic lands. Obliterator is much better than Abyssal Persecutor and is easily castable with the mana base I posted. Persecutor makes you play Innocent Blood and Gatekeeper, both suboptimal in my opinion. The former is addressed below and the latter is too mana intensive for a card that only deals with creatures. Anyways, there are three Bayous and you don't need to fetch them unless you are holding Decay. You can put the fourth in if you want too. The green ability on DRS is typically used towards the end of the game when you've drawn a fetch or two along the way; guaranteed. In the early turns, get a Bayou if you need to Decay something, but you can always wait. This is one of the lightest splashes I've ever played. Getting the correct mana has not been difficult at all.


I would still keep the innocent bloods (around 3). The risk of getting the bayou wasted is worth it since with drs you could have a turn 3 obliterator as well :cool:
I would also ad something like maelstrom pulse on the sideboard, because it has a broader range than decay, and also helps with annoying planeswalkers (but bitterblossom already does that, so maybe it's not needed)

You don't need Innocent Blood. The best thing it does is kill Nimble Mongoose, but that is not worth mb space to me. Liliana provides the same sac effect and Decay is better at sniping what you actually want to kill.

[MGB]

This deck needs to play 4 Funeral Charm. This card is insane in Legacy.

- Spot removal for many troublesome creatures such as Mother of Runes, Thalia, Dark Confidant, Delver, Goblin Lackey, Noble Heirarch, Young Pyromancer.
- Instant speed discard, which is rarer than rare in this game. This means that it's discard that is *not dead* in the late game when opponent is topdecking. Cast Funeral Charm after draw step and before main phase and you just killed his topdeck.
- If you don't need to remove any x/1s and discard is not necessary, it's still not dead! Pump most of your creatures to do 2 extra damage, which can be huge when you are trying to close the game out.

Funeral Charm is the removal spell/discard spell/pump spell that is literally *never* dead like other cards that only do one of those things.

Seriously, ever since I started playing this card in my Gate deck, it's made all of my matchups better.

[Michael Keller]

This deck needs to play 4 Funeral Charm. This card is insane in Legacy.

- Spot removal for many troublesome creatures such as Mother of Runes, Thalia, Dark Confidant, Delver, Goblin Lackey, Noble Heirarch, Young Pyromancer.
- Instant speed discard, which is rarer than rare in this game. This means that it's discard that is *not dead* in the late game when opponent is topdecking. Cast Funeral Charm after draw step and before main phase and you just killed his topdeck.
- If you don't need to remove any x/1s and discard is not necessary, it's still not dead! Pump most of your creatures to do 2 extra damage, which can be huge when you are trying to close the game out.

Funeral Charm is the removal spell/discard spell/pump spell that is literally *never* dead like other cards that only do one of those things.

Seriously, ever since I started playing this card in my Gate deck, it's made all of my matchups better.

Funeral Charm has some corner-case application against Storm decks, too. Once an opponent plays out their hand, before they cast their Burning Wish or Infernal Tutor, cast Charm and force them to discard it. You would probably do this with a Ritual, cantrip or some sort of artifact on the stack, of course.

I think Funeral Charm is a decent card and merits a look-see for folks looking at utility slots.

[MGB]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=145648&d=1378872925

This guy was recently spoiled. I think in this deck he can be better than Liliana, but you have to build the deck to fit his Heroic ability.

I've been playing anywhere from 2-4 Darkblast MAINDECK in this deck for a while and it has proven to be very valuable on its own vs the swarm of x/1s in this format (Mother of Runes, Delver of Secrets, opposing Dark Confidants, Grim Lavamancer, Young Pyromancer, Goblin Lackey, etc etc).

If you now play 4 of these guys, alongside maindeck Darkblast, then not only will Darkblast handle the x/1s but if you dredge it and cast it on this guy, you can force your opponent to sac ANY creature. This is absolutely amazing. I'm going to sub this guy as a 4-of into my Gate deck (playing Darkblast and NOT playing Innocent Blood btw) ASAP. I have a feeling that this combo will make the deck a serious tier 1 contender.

And stuff like Funeral Charm will function not only as a pump spell on this guy (making him attack for 5 damage) but will simultaneously clear the path for his attack by Edicting the opponent!

This guy will also be a complete LOAD in Standard and Modern and subsequently his price tag will skyrocket upward, so grab as many of these guys as you can when the set hits the card shops.

[phazonmutant]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=145648&d=1378872925

This guy was recently spoiled. I think in this deck he can be better than Liliana, but you have to build the deck to fit his Heroic ability.

I've been playing anywhere from 2-4 Darkblast MAINDECK in this deck for a while and it has proven to be very valuable on its own vs the swarm of x/1s in this format (Mother of Runes, Delver of Secrets, opposing Dark Confidants, Grim Lavamancer, Young Pyromancer, Goblin Lackey, etc etc).

If you now play 4 of these guys, alongside maindeck Darkblast, then not only will Darkblast handle the x/1s but if you dredge it and cast it on this guy, you can force your opponent to sac ANY creature. This is absolutely amazing. I'm going to sub this guy as a 4-of into my Gate deck (playing Darkblast and NOT playing Innocent Blood btw) ASAP. I have a feeling that this combo will make the deck a serious tier 1 contender.

And stuff like Funeral Charm will function not only as a pump spell on this guy (making him attack for 5 damage) but will simultaneously clear the path for his attack by Edicting the opponent!

This guy will also be a complete LOAD in Standard and Modern and subsequently his price tag will skyrocket upward, so grab as many of these guys as you can when the set hits the card shops.

That's a sweet interaction! Could you post your proposed list? Curious to see how the gate has evolved in the past year or two.

One card that's probably more cute than good is Mourning. Ratatatatatat.

[e10reo]

So this is my first time playing legacy and i wanted to run a mono colored deck and i do love black so i picked this one. I have made some small changes to include some of the newer cards.

2 Ghost Quarter
18 Swamp
3 Innocent Blood
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Thoughtseize
3 Bitterblossom
2 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
4 Vampire Nighthawk
2 Desecration Demon
2 Phyrexian Obliterator

#60
Sideboard:

1 Deathrite Shaman
2 Extirpate
2 Pithing Needle
2 Ratchet Bomb
3 Engineered Plague
3 Hero's Downfall
2 Cabal Therapy

#15

[beez]

That is a lot of badass black cards stuffed into one deck.

[zenitramleirdag]

That is a lot of badass black cards stuffed into one deck.

yeah, almost every card packs a punch..and i like the high threat density!
i'm assuming the ghost quarters are budget replacements for wastelands..

[Lemnear]

So this is my first time playing legacy and i wanted to run a mono colored deck and i do love black so i picked this one. I have made some small changes to include some of the newer cards.

2 Ghost Quarter
18 Swamp
3 Innocent Blood
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Thoughtseize
3 Bitterblossom
2 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
4 Vampire Nighthawk
2 Desecration Demon
2 Phyrexian Obliterator

#60
Sideboard:

1 Deathrite Shaman
2 Extirpate
2 Pithing Needle
2 Ratchet Bomb
3 Engineered Plague
3 Hero's Downfall
2 Cabal Therapy

#15

Running DRS without Fetches doesn't make any sense in the slightest nor does DB DRS do

[e10reo]

Running DRS without Fetches doesn't make any sense in the slightest nor does DB DRS do

What does DB stand for is that double black or something else? Shaman may not be the most optimal card and currently i don't have access to fetches.


yeah, almost every card packs a punch..and i like the high threat density!
i'm assuming the ghost quarters are budget replacements for wastelands..

and yes ghostquarters is a budget wastelands new to legacy so dont have many of the land cards those seem to be hard to come by.

[Holly]

I assume it's a typo and should be SB since you have 1 DRS for whatever reason (since it's not a good sb card, specially not without fetches) in your sideboard.

[Lemnear]

Yeah, it was just a typo. Having several DRS but no Fetches or Wastelands is not only a very questionable choice to build a deck, but also one hilarious to invest money (especially paired with other big-buck items like confidants and lilly)

You'll get more value out of Dark Ritual than from DRS under such conditions.

[e10reo]

Yeah, it was just a typo. Having several DRS but no Fetches or Wastelands is not only a very questionable choice to build a deck, but also one hilarious to invest money (especially paired with other big-buck items like confidants and lilly)

You'll get more value out of Dark Ritual than from DRS under such conditions.

not actually sure why that DRS was in the SB to be honest i think it was supposed to be something else but not sure what (don't have my deck list on me) so you think i could replace the DRS with dark rituals? also a question that has bugged me which one is better Surgical Extraction or Extirpate?

[MoxBropal]

So True Name Nemesis is getting a lot of play, and a mono black devotion deck day-2'd GP DC. Anyone think the meta-shift could make The Gate more playable right now?

Also, what do you guys think of replacing the wastelands with Scrying Sheets for late game draws?

[Admiral_Arzar]

So True Name Nemesis is getting a lot of play, and a mono black devotion deck day-2'd GP DC. Anyone think the meta-shift could make The Gate more playable right now?

Also, what do you guys think of replacing the wastelands with Scrying Sheets for late game draws?

Yeah, the devotion deck is actually very similar to this deck - it swapped Bob for Arena and Wasteland for Nykthos, then added 2x Grey Merchant of Asphodel. Otherwise the deck is almost identical. It looks too slow to me personally (and Nykthos seems mediocre when you barely have anything to ramp into), but I guess you can't argue with the winning record. I'm more interested in the deck's potential in Modern than anything.

As for the Gate itself, I feel like the meta is shifting in our favor, and drastically. I mean, our fast combo matchup was never great but isn't unwinnable either, and it looks like TNN might make other mid-range decks that have better cards than us less playable (Shardless BUG for example). The more tempo and nonbasic hate there is in the meta, the better this deck is. It's also pretty good against the stoneforge decks. We suffer against fast combo and hard control (Miracles) but you can't do well against every matchup. I'm going to test Hero's Downfall in a couple slots to see if it helps with the "losing to Jace" problem.

[Scott]

As for the Gate itself, I feel like the meta is shifting in our favor, and drastically. I mean, our fast combo matchup was never great but isn't unwinnable either, and it looks like TNN might make other mid-range decks that have better cards than us less playable (Shardless BUG for example). The more tempo and nonbasic hate there is in the meta, the better this deck is. It's also pretty good against the stoneforge decks. We suffer against fast combo and hard control (Miracles) but you can't do well against every matchup. I'm going to test Hero's Downfall in a couple slots to see if it helps with the "losing to Jace" problem.

And now we have Toxic Deluge for threat-dense aggro like Merfolk, Maverick and Affinity post-board.

[Zirath]

So True Name Nemesis is getting a lot of play, and a mono black devotion deck day-2'd GP DC. Anyone think the meta-shift could make The Gate more playable right now?

Also, what do you guys think of replacing the wastelands with Scrying Sheets for late game draws?

Does someone have the Devotion list for the Gate? I am intrigued by this.

[PirateKing]

Hello, all. My name is Matt and you might have seen me at the GP wearing a "Team 0-3 Drop" shirt, running Mono B Devotion. I had around 30 people come up to me and ask to take a look through the deck, so I figured some may have some interest in learning more about it. The reason I chose this was the whole TNN craze and the rogue factor. Going in I liked any match that wasn't storm or OmniShow. As far as a tourney report, I'll just go through the matches and give the result since I'm not that good with remembering turn for turn what happened.

Decklist:

Land
2 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx - Obvious Reasons
20 Swamp

Sorcery
3 Inquisition of Kozilek - Good early disruption.
4 Hymn to Tourach - Best hand disruption.
2 Duress - Best against thing I care about (walkers).
1 Toxic Deluge - Just in case.

Creature
4 Phyrexian Obliterator - STP or bust.
4 Vampire Nighthawk - Trades with Emrakul.
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir - Removal + creature = value.
2 Desecration Demon - 6/6 that can't be Decayed.
2 Gray Merchant of Asphodel - Win con.

Planeswalker
2 Liliana of the Veil - Everything I want.

Enchantment
3 Phyrexian Arena - Card advantage + devotion

Instant
3 Hero's Downfall - Stupid Jace.
2 Geth's Verdict - TNN, GoST, Emrakul, Griselbrand primarily.
2 Disfigure - Delver, Bob, Deathrite, SFM, Lavamancer, Lackey, Elves, etc.

Sideboard

2 Ashen Rider - SnT decks
2 Mindbreak Trap - Storm, Elves, etc.
2 Pithing Needle - Walkers, Sword of Feast and Famine, EE, Vial.
2 Toxic Deluge - Creature based decks, TNN, GoST.
2 Extirpate - Reanimator, storm, dredge.
2 Ensnaring Bridge - Elves, SnT.
1 Sorin Markov - Control matches, storm.
1 Whip of Erebos - Anything where creature are good, but they'll probably not be around long.
1 Liliana of the Veil - Rarely didn't come in.

Tourney Report

Round 1 - I had a bye somehow, so already a good day. [1-0]

Round 2 - U/W Stoneblade - (2-0) The main thing in winning this match is not letting Jace hang around. STP can be a pain, but otherwise its cake. [2-0]

Round 3 - B/U/G Delver - (0-2) I somehow lost this match. My opponent was shocked when he won as I drew a bunch of swamps. [2-1]

Round 4 - ANT - (2-1) Got crushed first game, won at 1 life second game, and Mindbreak Trap third game. [3-1]

Round 5 - Shardless B/U/G - (0-2) A timely Jace was able to unsummon my Obliterator for a lethal swing. Second game cascading into Visions was a thing. [3-2]

Round 6 - Omnishow - (2-1) Hand disruption was key in winning first game. He won turn 3 game 2 thanks to Leyline, but game 3 he mulled to 5 and couldn't find one so I tore his hand apart and took it down. [4-2]

Round 7 - R/U/G Delver - (2-1) Won in three games. Quite possibly the best match for me thanks so cards that aren't very efficient against me. I did almost punt insanely hard game, luckily I wasn't punished. [5-2]

Round 8 - Esper Stoneblade, Jarvis Yu - (2-1) Went to three games. After winning the first one handily, I found out that people still run Sword of Feast and Famine. I brought in Needle for it and won with Merchant. [6-2]

Round 9 - R/U/G Delver - (2-1) Lost game 2 to a top deck Bolt. Third game we found out that 2 Obliterators are better than 3 Mongoose. [7-2]

Day 2

Round 10 - B/U/G Delver - (2-1) Won the usually game 1. Lost to some 2CMC Demons. Last game a top deck Lily was able to let me survive then take over the game. [8-2]

Round 11 - R/U/G Delver - (0-2) Had to mulligan a bunch and he had all the relevant cards. [8-3]

Round 12 - ANT - (1-2) Lose the usual game 1. Second game I Duress Tendrills and Extripate the following turn and he scoops. Game three he rips exactly Tutor, LED to win. [8-4]

Round 13 - R/U/G Delver (2-0) The second game I had the most dominating win of the day with a Whip, Lily with 9 counters, and Merchant. [9-4]

Round 14 - American Delver (1-2) - Another game where I drew nothing but lands in games 2,3. [9-5]

Dream over at that point. I had a blast. Some opponents had a blast. Tons of spectators had a blast. As far as changes I think -1 Downfall, -1 Nykthos, +1 Volrath's Stronghold, +1 Victim of Night. If I had the money, I would drop the Arenas for Chains of Mephistopheles potentially. That's all I can think of. I'm gonna continue to work on this, as well as a few other devotion projects. Feel free to ask any questions. Sorry if I wasn't thorough enough. Take care all :)

[Wilkin]

Great report. When I was at the GP, I heard about a mono-black devotion deck making day 2. Cool. Surprised at record vs the Delver decks. 4-3 I believe? I thought it would be better.

I count 14 creature kill cards Main. That's a lot. Plus, with 20 Basic Swamps the Stifle/Wasteland strategy that the Delver decks use is rendered useless. And if Obliterator lands it's GG, unless they have a Stifle.

[Michael Keller]

Nice report and congrats on the finish!

[Captain Hammer]

Hi guys,

I was inspired by the devotion list and below is the list that I'm currently running, I would really appreciate your feedback or any needed changes or problems that you see. Thank you.

20 Swamp
2 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
4 Dark Ritual
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Victim of the Night
4 Phyrexian Arena
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Phyrexian Obliterator
2 Gray Merchant of Asphodel

Liliana was out of my price range for this deck so I opted to run Hypnotic Specter in it's place, in order to keep the devotion count high and give the deck another evasive disruption/must kill asap beatstick in one

[Tyrio]

Piloted the below at my LGS tonight. Only ran 3 rounds before top 8 because the bathroom was broken and the store didn't want to run 4 rounds.

4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Dark Confidant
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
3 Agent of the Fates
4 Phyrexian Obliterator
2 Gray Merchant of Asphodel
19

3 Darkblast
3 Thoughtseize
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Geth's Verdict
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Phyrexian Arena
18

4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Bayou
12 Swamp

SB:
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Extirpate
1 Perish
1 Golgari Charm
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Duress
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Pithing Needle
2 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Dread of Night

Phyrexian Arena occupies a kind of weird spot on the curve so I originally ran 4 Bobs. But Maher flipping Obliterator and Gray Merchant is kind of embarrassing so I settled on a 2-2 split. A friend suggested and lent me 2 Chains of Mephistopheles for the board and I jammed them in 5 minutes before the tournament started. In retrospect thought I imagine there's a lot of disynergy between the Chains and the Arena.

Round 1 - ANT
G1
I knew what he was on before we sat down so I mulled down to 5 looking for hate and keep Swamp, Thoughtseize x2, Hymn and Agent of the Fates. I open with Thoughtseize on the play and see Polluted Delta, LED x 2, Brainstorm x2, Ponder and Past in Flames. I take Ponder, figuring the Brainstorms were not so good if he had no fetches after his first. He plays his Delta and passes. I whiff on the next draw and get an Obliterator instead of a Swamp. I probably misplayed and held the second Thoughtseize back, figuring that it could wait since his hand didn't seem good enough to go off next turn. He EOTs Brainstorm and on his turn fetches for a Swamp. I rip Swamp on my next turn and Hymn, he Brainstorms and Hymn ends up hitting Ponder and PiF. his Brainstorms were enough and on his turn he combos off with double Cabal Ritual into Infernal Tutor with his LEDs.

Board in Surgicals, Extirpates, Chains, Golgari Charm, the Decays and the discard. Take out all the bad removal, and some Obliterators iirc.

I open game 2 with Thoughtseize and see that he's kept a very loose hand of LED, IT, CT and 4 lands. I take IT and eventually beat him down with random men after he doesn't draw anything relevant.

Game 3 I keep a hand with Extirpate and Chains of Mephistopheles, but no discard. His hand ends up being very cantrip heavy and Chains does work. Eventually he has to attempt a PiF kill after I get him low with dorks but I have the Extirpate for his Infernal Tutor and he can't cantrip chain under the Chains.

1-0

Round 2 - Big Red
I mull to to t1 Thoughtseize and see Sandstone Needle, Ancient Tomb x2, Lotus Petal, Blood Moon, Emrakul and Worldspine Wurm. I take the Wurm because I can't edict it very well. He plays a Needle and passes. I play a land and a Deathrite. His next turn he sneaks in Emrakul, wipes my board and I go to 2. We play cripple Magic for a few turns where I rebuild my mana base through Blood Moon and eventually beat him down with a Gatekeeper. Double Geth's Verdicts fend off 2 more Emrakuls off the top.

Boarded in Surgicals, Extirpates, Discard, Charm and Needle. Took out Gray Merchants and Obliterators.

Game 2 I Thoughtseize away his only creature enabler, and he's unable to get anything going after I Pithing Needle Sneak Attack. I beat him down with an Agent of Fates. He shows me a hand of 3 Emrakuls and 2 Sneak Attacks after the game, and I show him my sweet hand of Geth's Verdicts and Darkblasts.

Round 3 Charbelcher
IDed so fast.

Top 8
Charbelcher
G1
Mulled to t1 Thoughtseize but was on the draw. Got WAAAAGHHHED next turn.

G2.
Mulled to 4 but couldn't find a t1 play and got burped on the next turn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Well, I ran into 4 combo decks and didn't get to Obliterate people. I played a few unboarded games against a MonoW Prison/Hatebear deck and Agent of the Fates + Darkblast performed pretty well. In retrospect my board seemed to pack a lot of additional removal for my already removal-heavy deck so that was probably unoptimal. Should probably pack more disruption.

[xdavisx]

Just wanna chime in that I played the gate this last weekend in Indy. Didn't run so hot with the deck, had a lot of problematic match ups and some rough draws but them the breaks.

3 thoughtseize
2 inquisition of kozilek
3 cabal therapy
1 hymn to tourach
4 innocent blood
3 liliana of the veil
2 hero's downfall
2 umezawa's jitte
1 sensei's divining top

3 bitterblossom
3 gatekeeper of malakir
4 dark confidant
4 vampire nighthawk
2 abyssal persecutor

6 fetch lands
1 bojuka bog
4 wasteland
12 swamp

sideboard

1 toxic deluge
1 perish
1 nihil spellbomb
2 surgical extraction
1 extirpate
1 dread of night
1 engineered plague
2 duress
1 massacre
1 pithing needle
+3 cards I can't remember

Quick summary

round 1- elves
I killed a lot of elves and win fairly easily.
2-1

round 2- tezzeret
I manage to strip his hand apart but can't do much about the cards off the top of his deck. I lose to many a planes walkers.
0-2

round 3- jund
The way I see it is this deck does the same thing we're trying to do, but better.
0-2

round 4- shardless bug
It's hard to attrition out the all value deck.
1-2

round 5- team america
I run way more removal then him and he ran out of threats.
2-0

round 6- death and taxes
I kill a lot of his dudes all 3 games and he run's me out of cards in the last game. I lose to batterskull
1-2

2-4 drop.

I think the deck is still good in it's own right but Jund just does it better IMO :frown:

[Scott]

Quick sideboarding note based on recent matches I've played. Reanimator seems to be on a slight upswing, and if you have Surgical Extractions in your SB, I now even more strongly recommend some amount of Extirpate to complement them; split second has won me games.

[hugh4893]

I have tried whole heartedly to make MB work for the past 8 months, and I after attempting my own discard brews that fell short time and time again, I think its time that i give my own gate list a try.

Mind you, this is somewhat budget, with bitterblossoms scyrocketing with the unbanning in modern, and Bob's being a C-Note Each, I don't have them in there.

Also, I tried to go a more tempo/control route with this deck, and just try to have answers to as many situations as possible in the main, instead of what a lot of decks do, which is make their strategy go all out and hope for a match-up that flat out gets the beats on the opponent, or just loses if it's a bad one.

I am also not running innocent bloods, this may be a mistake, but I am running a lot of removal across the board to answer the pitfalls of non-targetted, non sweeped removal that sac effects can have a drawback with.

The first build of this list didn't have nighthawk, and had +1 basilisk collar, no scriveners, and was having a one of guul draz assassin alongside 4x bloodghast with accompanying undiscovered paradise, but i didnt like how even though bloodghast was resilient, he couldn't block, and running 4x non-basics alongside bojuka bog made the wasteland control route a lot more viable.

I'd like to hear what the community of this list has to say about it, and potential problems it could run into.

Creature (18)
2x Abyssal Persecutor
2x Blood Scrivener
2x Desecration Demon
4x Gatekeeper of Malakir
2x Phyrexian Revoker
2x Tombstalker
4x Vampire Nighthawk

Sorcery (8)
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Thoughtseize

Planeswalker (3)
3x Liliana of the Veil

Instant (5)
2x Disfigure
1x Dismember
2x Shadow of Doubt

Enchantment (3)
1x Dystopia
2x Phyrexian Arena

Artifact (3)
1x Basilisk Collar
2x Ratchet Bomb

Land (20)
2x Bojuka Bog
18x Swamp


Sideboard (15)
1x Basilisk Collar
2x Cabal Therapy
1x Dystopia
2x Engineered Plague
1x Liliana of the Veil
1x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Ratchet Bomb
1x Shadow of Doubt
3x Surgical Extraction
2x grafdigger's cage

[Scott]

I want to get opinions on this. In a scenario in which all lands make :b: and one never goes wanting for a way to kill your own creature, how many Phyrexian Obliterators and how many Abyssal Persecutors would you put in your deck? In other words, assuming mana and offing Percy is covered, how do you rate a 5/5 trampler with Obliterator's ability vs. a 6/6 flying trampler, taking attacking, blocking, removal, and anything else into account?

[Captain Hammer]

Hugh, that is a very solid list.


I want to get opinions on this. In a scenario in which all lands make :b: and one never goes wanting for a way to kill your own creature, how many Phyrexian Obliterators and how many Abyssal Persecutors would you put in your deck? In other words, assuming mana and offing Percy is covered, how do you rate a 5/5 trampler with Obliterator's ability vs. a 6/6 flying trampler, taking attacking, blocking, removal, and anything else into account?

I would play 4 Obliterator and 0-2 Persecutor depending on whether or not I'm playing atleast 6 cards that I can use to get rid of a Persecutor that has overstayed it's welcome.

Obliterator is the more powerful beatstick by far so if BBBB isn't an issue, play a full playset. Persecutor is more situational.

[MoxBropal]

With perfect mana, I like Obliterator as well. Percy can be chumped all day in the air. Obliterator gives not a single sh*t about that Batterskull token across the table either.

[Tyrio]

With perfect mana, I like Obliterator as well. Percy can be chumped all day in the air. Obliterator gives not a single sh*t about that Batterskull token
across the table either.

It's pretty hard to chump a flying 6/6 when he also tramples. Both men are pretty much unblockable and Persecutor is a somewhat faster clock. Persecutor being able to block Delver/Tombstalker/angels can be pretty relevant, although Obliterator is obviously a better defender against Batterskull and can't really be attacked around.

I've been messing around with a green splash and some Wastelands, which makes casting Obliterator awkward at times.

[Captain Hammer]

Hello, all. My name is Matt and you might have seen me at the GP wearing a "Team 0-3 Drop" shirt, running Mono B Devotion. I had around 30 people come up to me and ask to take a look through the deck, so I figured some may have some interest in learning more about it. The reason I chose this was the whole TNN craze and the rogue factor. Going in I liked any match that wasn't storm or OmniShow. As far as a tourney report, I'll just go through the matches and give the result since I'm not that good with remembering turn for turn what happened.

Decklist:

Land
2 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx - Obvious Reasons
20 Swamp

Sorcery
3 Inquisition of Kozilek - Good early disruption.
4 Hymn to Tourach - Best hand disruption.
2 Duress - Best against thing I care about (walkers).
1 Toxic Deluge - Just in case.

Creature
4 Phyrexian Obliterator - STP or bust.
4 Vampire Nighthawk - Trades with Emrakul.
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir - Removal + creature = value.
2 Desecration Demon - 6/6 that can't be Decayed.
2 Gray Merchant of Asphodel - Win con.

Planeswalker
2 Liliana of the Veil - Everything I want.

Enchantment
3 Phyrexian Arena - Card advantage + devotion

Instant
3 Hero's Downfall - Stupid Jace.
2 Geth's Verdict - TNN, GoST, Emrakul, Griselbrand primarily.
2 Disfigure - Delver, Bob, Deathrite, SFM, Lavamancer, Lackey, Elves, etc.

Sideboard

2 Ashen Rider - SnT decks
2 Mindbreak Trap - Storm, Elves, etc.
2 Pithing Needle - Walkers, Sword of Feast and Famine, EE, Vial.
2 Toxic Deluge - Creature based decks, TNN, GoST.
2 Extirpate - Reanimator, storm, dredge.
2 Ensnaring Bridge - Elves, SnT.
1 Sorin Markov - Control matches, storm.
1 Whip of Erebos - Anything where creature are good, but they'll probably not be around long.
1 Liliana of the Veil - Rarely didn't come in.

Tourney Report

Round 1 - I had a bye somehow, so already a good day. [1-0]

Round 2 - U/W Stoneblade - (2-0) The main thing in winning this match is not letting Jace hang around. STP can be a pain, but otherwise its cake. [2-0]

Round 3 - B/U/G Delver - (0-2) I somehow lost this match. My opponent was shocked when he won as I drew a bunch of swamps. [2-1]

Round 4 - ANT - (2-1) Got crushed first game, won at 1 life second game, and Mindbreak Trap third game. [3-1]

Round 5 - Shardless B/U/G - (0-2) A timely Jace was able to unsummon my Obliterator for a lethal swing. Second game cascading into Visions was a thing. [3-2]

Round 6 - Omnishow - (2-1) Hand disruption was key in winning first game. He won turn 3 game 2 thanks to Leyline, but game 3 he mulled to 5 and couldn't find one so I tore his hand apart and took it down. [4-2]

Round 7 - R/U/G Delver - (2-1) Won in three games. Quite possibly the best match for me thanks so cards that aren't very efficient against me. I did almost punt insanely hard game, luckily I wasn't punished. [5-2]

Round 8 - Esper Stoneblade, Jarvis Yu - (2-1) Went to three games. After winning the first one handily, I found out that people still run Sword of Feast and Famine. I brought in Needle for it and won with Merchant. [6-2]

Round 9 - R/U/G Delver - (2-1) Lost game 2 to a top deck Bolt. Third game we found out that 2 Obliterators are better than 3 Mongoose. [7-2]

Day 2

Round 10 - B/U/G Delver - (2-1) Won the usually game 1. Lost to some 2CMC Demons. Last game a top deck Lily was able to let me survive then take over the game. [8-2]

Round 11 - R/U/G Delver - (0-2) Had to mulligan a bunch and he had all the relevant cards. [8-3]

Round 12 - ANT - (1-2) Lose the usual game 1. Second game I Duress Tendrills and Extripate the following turn and he scoops. Game three he rips exactly Tutor, LED to win. [8-4]

Round 13 - R/U/G Delver (2-0) The second game I had the most dominating win of the day with a Whip, Lily with 9 counters, and Merchant. [9-4]

Round 14 - American Delver (1-2) - Another game where I drew nothing but lands in games 2,3. [9-5]

Dream over at that point. I had a blast. Some opponents had a blast. Tons of spectators had a blast. As far as changes I think -1 Downfall, -1 Nykthos, +1 Volrath's Stronghold, +1 Victim of Night. If I had the money, I would drop the Arenas for Chains of Mephistopheles potentially. That's all I can think of. I'm gonna continue to work on this, as well as a few other devotion projects. Feel free to ask any questions. Sorry if I wasn't thorough enough. Take care all :)

I really really like this list and I think devotion is the way to go with this deck. Mono Black has lots of great ways to trump aggro control and going this route also gives the deck a way to trump actual control decks.

[Captain Hammer]

It's pretty hard to chump a flying 6/6 when he also tramples. Both men are pretty much unblockable and Persecutor is a somewhat faster clock. Persecutor being able to block Delver/Tombstalker/angels can be pretty relevant, although Obliterator is obviously a better defender against Batterskull and can't really be attacked around.

I've been messing around with a green splash and some Wastelands, which makes casting Obliterator awkward at times.

Yeah, if you're playing Wastelands, then obviously Obliterator no longer makes as much sense.

But IMO, Wasteland isn't worthwhile in this deck. It's a slow deck, that should be built and played similar to the Rock but without the vulnerability to things like Stifle. Wasteland doesn't make sense here the same way it doesn't make sense in Nic Fit/The Rock. Because most other decks are built to function are as little as two lands, so you're the one that's losing out by blowing up their land with your land, not your opponent.

[Michael Keller]

Yeah, if you're playing Wastelands, then obviously Obliterator no longer makes as much sense.

But IMO, Wasteland isn't worthwhile in this deck. It's a slow deck, that should be built and played similar to the Rock but without the vulnerability to things like Stifle. Wasteland doesn't make sense here the same way it doesn't make sense in Nic Fit/The Rock. Because most other decks are built to function are as little as two lands, so you're the one that's losing out by blowing up their land with your land, not your opponent.

Unless you run Urborg.

[Michael Keller]

I'll be revisiting this deck soon.

[LDX]

I'll be revisiting this deck soon.

Please do. While the deck doesn't fit in the meta at the best of its capacity, you were always able to give keen advices and bring rational points behind every choices you made at first. I'm tired of seeing way too many people trying to ''master'' or ''update'' The Gate while they forget or don't understand the real core & origins of this masterpiece.

The sacrifice effects might get better as long as TNN will rise in the scene, but do you really see a future for The Gate? I mean, the Zoo era is now a past long forgotten. Where are you going with this?

[Captain Hammer]

I'll be revisiting this deck soon.
Nice!

I have tried whole heartedly to make MB work for the past 8 months, and I after attempting my own discard brews that fell short time and time again, I think its time that i give my own gate list a try.

Mind you, this is somewhat budget, with bitterblossoms scyrocketing with the unbanning in modern, and Bob's being a C-Note Each, I don't have them in there.

Also, I tried to go a more tempo/control route with this deck, and just try to have answers to as many situations as possible in the main, instead of what a lot of decks do, which is make their strategy go all out and hope for a match-up that flat out gets the beats on the opponent, or just loses if it's a bad one.

I am also not running innocent bloods, this may be a mistake, but I am running a lot of removal across the board to answer the pitfalls of non-targetted, non sweeped removal that sac effects can have a drawback with.

The first build of this list didn't have nighthawk, and had +1 basilisk collar, no scriveners, and was having a one of guul draz assassin alongside 4x bloodghast with accompanying undiscovered paradise, but i didnt like how even though bloodghast was resilient, he couldn't block, and running 4x non-basics alongside bojuka bog made the wasteland control route a lot more viable.

I'd like to hear what the community of this list has to say about it, and potential problems it could run into.

Creature (18)
2x Abyssal Persecutor
2x Blood Scrivener
2x Desecration Demon
4x Gatekeeper of Malakir
2x Phyrexian Revoker
2x Tombstalker
4x Vampire Nighthawk

Sorcery (8)
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Thoughtseize

Planeswalker (3)
3x Liliana of the Veil

Instant (5)
2x Disfigure
1x Dismember
2x Shadow of Doubt

Enchantment (3)
1x Dystopia
2x Phyrexian Arena

Artifact (3)
1x Basilisk Collar
2x Ratchet Bomb

Land (20)
2x Bojuka Bog
18x Swamp


Sideboard (15)
1x Basilisk Collar
2x Cabal Therapy
1x Dystopia
2x Engineered Plague
1x Liliana of the Veil
1x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Ratchet Bomb
1x Shadow of Doubt
3x Surgical Extraction
2x grafdigger's cage

I like this list while I would play Dark Ritual with Blood Scrivener

[Michael Keller]

I'll update you all later on this.

[Captain Hammer]

Hypnotic Specter is really effective in the environment! I think its time that more give it a try.

[Scott]

I've replaced a SB Drown in Sorrow with a Bane of the Living. Does anyone have any tips and tricks for it? I was titillated this weekend when I turned it face up in response to my Bitterblossom trigger, so I could use the untapped lands I needed without killing the new token, and that's pretty basic, so I'll appreciate any tips.

[jungleman3955]

What I'm currently running:
4 Dark Confidant
3 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Vamiric Nighthawk
4 Phyrexian Obliterator

3 Bitterblossom
2 Disfigure
3 Innocent Blood
4 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy
4 Hymn to Tourach
1 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Liliana of the Veil

3 Bojuka Bog
18 Swamps

SB
1 Extirpate
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Pithing Needle
2 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Dystopia
2 Engineered Plague
2 Null Rod
2 Ratchet Bomb

I want to test out Desecration Demon in the 4 slot b/c blocking flyers has turned out to be relelvant even though Obliterator shrugs off pretty much everything. I like 3 Liliana's as she has just been the best card in the deck for me and I want to see her at least once in a game. Not a fan of Wasteland though with Obliterator. Maybe if you used Percy or DD it would be more playable.

I've had good success with the deck in my meta which is pretty much identical to the SCG legacy scene. I don't run across home brews or janky decks that often but the deck has a good MU with delver decks (especially RUG), is evenish with most stoneblade decks and is ofc somewhat weak to combo decks with the exception of Sneak and Show.

[olwe]

Hello all, long time reader, first post. I've mainly played Maverick and the Gate in the past.

I'd like to poll the community and Hollywood re: the Gate's current viability. There is evidence that mono-black midrange is still capable of placing well in today's meta.
1. Posters in this thread have had some success with changes like the inclusion of phyrexian obliterator.
2. The deck in it's more traditional form with abyssal persecutor recently placed well (2/42) http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=13708&iddeck=100713
3. A different version of mono-black (devotion based) made day 2 at GP DC http://www.reddit.com/r/spikes/comments/1qxfjj/legacy_made_day_2_at_gpdc_with_mono_b_devotion/

Some of my observations:
1. I tend to prefer persecutor over obliterator, as the 6/6 power/toughness allows for a 3 turn clock after the opponent has used 2 fetch-lands, the flying can block an opposing tombstalker, and the 2BB casting cost allows the use of wasteland.
2. Debate re: deathrite shaman - this card is certainly a powerhouse but conflicts with innocent blood which helps keep the board clear as we build up our resources. Are the benefits of this card enough to warrant reworking the deck? Can we bring in enough anti-graveyard cards from the sideboard if we don't run this? In this deck I tend to prefer innocent blood.
3. Bitterblossom - Is this too slow currently? A flying creature each turn is certainly powerful, but wondering if we can afford to wait while it builds. On turn two should we be playing removal, discard, or a confidant instead?
4. Liliana of the veil - we already run a lot of discard and sacrifice effects with gatekeeper and innocent blood, however it is nice to be able to pitch extra discard spells late game to +1 her loyalty. Run 1, 2, 3? I prefer to run 2.
5. What are thoughts on other lands other than swamp and wasteland? I like the rock-solid manabase, but I think something like a one-of phyrexian tower as a sacrifice effect for persecutor and extra mana after you've played a gatekeeper for example, to help playing threats you are drawing with confidant.
6. Was the devotion deck at GP DC a fluke? 5 mana for a gray merchant is a lot of mana, but a 16-20 point life swing is no joke.

Anyway, thanks for all the thoughtful posts on this thread - I've learned a lot from reading this. Hollywood you had mentioned earlier that you'd be re-visiting the deck - I'm sure there are many readers who are interested in your thoughts on it in today's meta! Thanks again.

[Michael Keller]

I think mono-black is perfectly suited for today's meta. I was revisiting it for a little while, but kind of got sidetracked. When you look at some of the most prolific decks in the format right now, you've got to be looking at decks like Patriot, Elves, D&T, etc. The fact is, this deck runs an abundance of removal and has the ability to control the board state fairly well in a progressive manner. I'm actually surprised it isn't seeing as much play as it should be.

Innocent Blood, Toxic Deluge, etc. These cards are excellent in Legacy right now. Just look at this forum and all the level of activity on what decks are hot. The Gate has good game against a lot of them, except maybe for Miracles. Even then, there are options to beat that deck.

[KobeBryan]

I think mono-black is perfectly suited for today's meta. I was revisiting it for a little while, but kind of got sidetracked. When you look at some of the most prolific decks in the format right now, you've got to be looking at decks like Patriot, Elves, D&T, etc. The fact is, this deck runs an abundance of removal and has the ability to control the board state fairly well in a progressive manner. I'm actually surprised it isn't seeing as much play as it should be.

Innocent Blood, Toxic Deluge, etc. These cards are excellent in Legacy right now. Just look at this forum and all the level of activity on what decks are hot. The Gate has good game against a lot of them, except maybe for Miracles. Even then, there are options to beat that deck.

pack the sideboard with 4 pithing needles, 4 null rods, 4 bitterblossoms

[ironclad8690]

Has anyone tried desecration demon in this deck? Or is abyssal persecutor just hands down better?

[olwe]

Has anyone tried desecration demon in this deck? Or is abyssal persecutor just hands down better?

The lack of a need to remove him is an advantage over persecutor, but the lack of trample, and vulnerability to be tapped down by a flashed in snapcaster, clique, etc makes me think it is not as powerful of a threat. I think for a 4-mana investment the ability to have the opponent tap it down is not optimal.

So with regards to the miracles matchup, null rod could certainly help against top, but has anyone considered proactive sideboard answers to their threats? Sadistic sacrament exiles 3 cards from their library for 3 mana (you could take both entreat the angels and one jace, or alternatively all the jaces, for example). A pithing needle on Jace and a few null rods to stop top into entreat the angels may be better, but just an idea. Hero's downfall, while it is more expensive than our other removal (like victim of night) could answer Jace and also be used for persecutor if necessary. Hollywood, first thanks for the reply, and second what are your thoughts on sideboard now?

[Michael Keller]

I'm entertaining a return to this deck for the big tournament in a few weeks. The deck has do many enticing matchups right now that it's hard not to at least consider it.

[olwe]

Some thoughts:
1. I wonder if bitterblossom would fit better in the side to be brought in against the slower matchups. Turn one should be hand disruption or innocent blood to clear a delver or shaman, and then turn 2 should follow up the pressure with confidant or hymn. I'm not sure if a turn 2 blossom is enough against some of the faster decks in the format.
2. Sweepers - we have access to toxic deluge, the upgraded infest (drown in sorrow, with scry attached), and one I have thought about is marsh casualties - this is a one sided -1/-1 effect for 2 mana, which late game can become a one sided -2/-2 effect. Not sure if this is worth it, but maybe in the side for elves, d&t, true name.deck?
3. Card advantage - the founding principle of this deck - We run confidant, and there has been some debate about the optimal discard spell formula. I think hymn as a 4 of is too good to pass up. Therapy as a free flashback and uncountable way to sac persecutor is fantastic. I wonder if running gitaxian probe to help filter through our deck and help power up therapy is worth it. If we move blossom to the side we may be able to afford the life loss.
4. Wasteland / land destruction - I wonder about how many is correct. Decks like RUG run stifle to back up Wasteland. Maverick uses KotR to chain wastelands and backs it up with Thalia. Most decks operate on a few mana just fine and we are trying to get to 4 to finish the game with persecutor. I guess hymn can sometimes get some lands but I'm not sure if that's enough. If we reconsider running wastelands (or number of wastelands) we could think about phyrexian tower, or even running obliterator.
5. Deathmark (an old inclusion, look to the beginning of this primer) seems good right now with all the elves and d&t, and shaman/tarmogoyf
6. Liliana of the veil is a great way to use late game discard spells and could reduce the number of gatekeepers needed.
7. Deathrite shaman is very powerful. If conflicts with turn one innocent blood, but it's ability to remove graveyard threats and drain the opponent each turn is pretty phenomenal.

What do you guys think? Let's put together an updated list.

[Michael Keller]

I sat down and did some hard research on the overall gist of the current meta, and here's why:

You have to understand that this deck thrived during a period where decks like Survival and early Maverick/New Horizons-based strategies existed. Death and Taxes was a thing [albeit early in its inception]. The fact of the matter is Legacy has changed quite a bit since 2010, but there is also a large aspect that has remained the same. Tarmogoyfs are still popular and cleaning up games in RUG, BUG and other similar strategies. Deathrite Shaman is a mainstay in a huge portion of competitive decks, and True-Name Nemesis is feared as being stupidly overpowered for what it does. Stoneforge Mystic is everywhere to be found, and Delver of Secrets appears to be the current order of the day.

The Gate thrived on destroying strategies that most of these decks deploy, in that they're light on threats because those threats are powerful enough to play and protect with cheap counter-magic. That never really mattered before, because The Gate was saturated with an excellent balance of removal and threats, some built into the same card. I honestly feel that the deck could seriously thrive in an unprepared meta, much like the one I expect to see this weekend at what could be one of the East Coast's biggest Legacy tournaments in years.

The cards that I can see making their return in The Gate in some capacity would be as follows:

Vampire Nighthawk
Gatekeeper of Malakir
Dark Confidant
Innocent Blood
Deathmark
Duress
Hymn to Tourach
Umezawa's Jitte
Bitterblossom

I'm not certain about some of other oldies like Abyssal Persecutor, but Phyrexian Obliterator is such a powerhouse that nothing would realistically stand in its way.

Liliana deserves consideration, as well. Sadistic Sacrament also seems really good if it lands. It's multifaceted, and against decks like 12-Post, stripping them of their atypical three-Eldrazi configuration can be crippling. I like the card against decks where it would truly be crushing.

[bakofried]

I think in today's meta game, cards such as Marsh Casualties and Disfigure are worth strong consideration.

[Michael Keller]

I would actually trim a Wasteland at this point and roll with eighteen Swamps. I never cared much before, but Gatekeeper of Malakir can become incredibly relevant and we really want that kicker. Wasteland can be an oddball at certain times, inherently forcing you to activate it sooner than later. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but when you have three lands and find that one of them is a Wasteland and you were wishing it was a third Swamp, that can be a bit awkward.

Although in the aforementioned list, there are only three Gatekeepers, so that does help alleviate that problem a bit.

I also like Pithing Needle as opposed to Revoker out of the board. No one is going to be bringing in artifact removal against this deck post-board, but spot removal for creatures is still omnipresent. Pithing Needle turn one on Sensei's Divining Top against Miracles is key, and doesn't eat it to Swords to Plowshares or a Terminus off the top. Hell, even Snapcaster Mage can act on their part as spot removal. It's rather frail to be honest, and I like a turn-one Needle against Sneak and Show that much better as opposed to a turn-two Revoker eating Daze.

Force of Will on a Needle also just feels so good when it happens, I don't know why. Maybe because it's cheap to cast and is really only in there to augment the discard in fighting troublesome permanents after they hit play - if discard doesn't nab it first.

Inquisition does not hit Jace, Sneak Attack, Natural Order or anything else that costs more than three. I don't like that, and want free reign as to what I'm discarding from an opponent's hand. I've already addressed how I feel about Thoughtseize: the deck has plenty of removal as it is and I don't like inadvertently discarding creatures against Reanimator post-Brainstorm. I've had this happen to me more than once in the past.

One-ofs out of the board are not really great in a deck like this with little to no library manipulation or minimal draw [with Bob]. I think streamlining the board to address the deck's most difficult matchups at higher quantities seems like a better idea and adds to the likelihood you'll be opening with countermeasures to fight troublesome strategies.

[maharis]

I agree with bakofried — I would not want to go into delver.format with only 3 innocent bloods as t1 removal. It makes it so easy to tempo you out if you lose the die roll. I think a couple disfigures instead of point discard would be better in the current meta, especially if we're not looking to resolve early threats ourselves. At least have them available for postboard on the draw.

[Michael Keller]

I could without a doubt live with 3 Wasteland, but I when I tried for a Bojuka Bog I wasn't so sure of my choice. I'll try with a basic swamp, the cons for Bojuka Bog were too numerous. I usually didn't want it in my opening since it came tapped, but by the time I felt ''ready'' to play it, the graveyard decks were already winning. And even with Dark Confidant, I couldn't get it soon enough when I was already in need.

I also play 4x Gatekeeper of Malakir. My list was outdated and wrong, I just edited it.

That being said, the reason I play both Phyrexian Revoker and Pithing Needle is rather simple; I just don't use them in the same match-up. I most likely won't bother with Phyrexian Revoker vs Miracles, but despite what I wanted to believe, our Storm matches are beyond awful G1. Naming Lion's Eye Diamond or Lotus Petal saved me more than once on G2-3.

I also hear you about the sideboard. Mine isn't finished yet, but I tried to build it so I had varied options for the same problem. I have a few one-of in the deck, but I usually bring them with either more one-of or better packs of sideboard cards. The two flexible slot in my list are at the moment 2x Contamination, and so far they've been doing wonder with Engineered Plague & Perish. The only match-up it where it wasn't enough was Merfolks because of their Aether Vial, but I could usually deal with those with the ''normal'' sacrifice outlet.

I would be curious to see your sideboard for this, almost as much as I would love to get my hands on 2x Chains of Mephistopheles. I might be blinded by fanaticism, but I'm sure this card is the solution vs Miracles and blue decks.


EDIT: Changes were made on the list, I DO run 4x Innocent Blood. It seems I copy pasted an outdated list at first.

Innocent Blood is amazing. I wouldn't even consider running less than four in this deck. A one-mana removal spell that takes out anything - including True-Name Nemesis and Emrakul - seems exceptionally good. Especially when you run Persecutor.

[Mystical_Jackass]

I like how Pithing Needle, Innocent Blood, Liliana and Blossom don't really step on eachother's toes early on. All pretty solid against Mother of Runes, too.

[LDX]

Innocent Blood is amazing. I wouldn't even consider running less than four in this deck. A one-mana removal spell that takes out anything - including True-Name Nemesis and Emrakul - seems exceptionally good. Especially when you run Persecutor.

I 100% agree. I do run 4x Innocent Blood. I copy pasted a list I had without my deck on hand, now that I do, the list is fully updated in this post. I tried to help the discussion and even argued when I didn't even notice my list was the wrong one, shame on me. Anyway, some previous points still stand, while others might be outdated or plain wrong. Here is the final list I have:

THE GATE (real version)

Lands (21)
17x Swamp
4x Wasteland

Creatures (16)
4x Dark Confidant
4x Vampire Nighthawk
3x Abyssal Persecutor
3x Gatekeeper of Malakir
2x Faerie Macabre

Artifacts (2)
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of Light and Shadow

Enchantments (3)
3x Bitterblossom

Sorceries (15)
4x Innocent Blood
4x Hymn to Tourach
3x Cabal Therapy
4x Duress

Planeswalkers (3)
3x Liliana of the Veil

Sideboard (15)
2x Pithing Needle
2x Phyrexian Revoker
2x Perish
1x Dystopia
3x Extirpate
1x Gate to Phyrexia
2x Contamination
1x Engineered Plague
1x Grafdigger's Cage

[Mystical_Jackass]

Interesting, not bad.

If I had to nitpick, the only 2 things I don't understand:
1) The 1x Jitte
2) The 4x Hymn

It makes sense when I see "1x" equipment 'cause usually most decks will run Stone Forge Mystic, E. Tutor or something like that, but seeing just 1 almost makes me wonder what's the point. Since the deck is more just about consistency, wouldn't you wanna' at least have like 2-3 to ensure you draw it?

It seemed like 11 discard is a little much, I love Hymn, but when you're cutting back key cards like Gatekeeper, Cabal and Jitte's I'd worry about losing board position over too much discard. I wonder if it'd be more of a SB vs combo?

[LDX]

Interesting, not bad.

If I had to nitpick, the only 2 things I don't understand:
1) The 1x Jitte
2) The 4x Hymn

It makes sense when I see "1x" equipment 'cause usually most decks will run Stone Forge Mystic, E. Tutor or something like that, but seeing just 1 almost makes me wonder what's the point. Since the deck is more just about consistency, wouldn't you wanna' at least have like 2-3 to ensure you draw it?

It seemed like 11 discard is a little much, I love Hymn, but when you're cutting back key cards like Gatekeeper, Cabal and Jitte's I'd worry about losing board position over too much discard. I wonder if it'd be more of a SB vs combo?

1) Having that small inconsistency usually trick people enough so I can actually play and keep a Jitte (or that SoLaS) on. Either will they blind Cabal Therapy for it, try a discard for it, or wait for it with a Decay or something. It's a small but very important inconsistency because opponents, since they're more used to Jitte than your other threats, will often consider it as priority #1. I then can play other spells safely. I started with 2, went down to 1 within a few weeks, and haven't looked back since then. Was about 3 years ago. I however understand people playing 3 equipments, I just don't feel the need to.

2) I want to cast an Hymn turn 2, always. I want to hit lands and cripple my opponents while I build card advantage. Hymn is the best at it. I could get more threat resolutions cards, but at this point I would rather be preventive than reactive. I consider Hymn as one of the most powerful card in the deck, and at the very worst, if your opponent has no cards in hand, you can discard it to Liliana safely.

[Novembermike]

This is what I've been running.

Lands 21
18 Swamp
3 Wasteland

Creatures 15
3 Abyssal Persecutor
4 Dark Confidant
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir

Instants 4
4 Victim of Night

Sorceries 13
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Innocent Blood
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Hymn to Tourach

Other 7
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Bitterblossom

When I compare yours to mine, LDX, I have to wonder why you're running zero instant speed removal or targeted removal, the main deck Faerie Macabre's (feels like a sideboard card at best and worse than a lot of the graveyard hate we can run), the 4x Duress (I like Duress but it's always felt like a sideboard card in legacy when you can run thoughtseize or inquisition as generalist cards) and I feel like 4 Wastelands is a bit too many in this deck if you want to be hitting 2 B mana turn 2 and 3 B's turn 3 consistently.

[LDX]

I'll check your input on the lands, I might indeed remove a Wasteland for an additional Swamp. Testing will tell.

I'll quote the opening post regarding Faerie Macabre.

''People are starting to see why this is such a good creature to run, even in their main builds. It comes out of nowhere and is absolutely ridiculous against decks predicated on a more intentional use of the graveyard. One of the main reasons for its inclusion in the main build has to do with its uncounterable ability and added bonus of being a body to equip and attack with. It completely stuns the unknowing and hits so many decks unknowingly right off the bat so very hard that they simply cannot recover in time. At worst, he's a 2/2 flyer for three mana. Highly abusable and underused.''

To that, I'll also add that it can be freely discarded with Liliana if needs to be. The card has won me many games just by luck, and I don't think I've ever lost because I needed to draw something and got the Faerie instead.

Now, regarding Duress, you said it yourself: Thoughtseize and Inquisition of Kozilek are more generalists, but they also have drawbacks. Two things:

1) I don't feel like the deck need that much generality, at least, not at the price we get this generality. I feel like I got plenty of tools, again, specialized tools, to take care of what Duress isn't able to take care of.
2) The prices are way too high. I often won game with clutch life where Thoughtseize would've killed me. Inquisition of Kozilek, while not bad, doesn't take care of Jace which is probably one of our biggest problem.

And finally, for the spot/instant removal. This is probably my biggest lackluster, but so far it hasn't been a real threat. By the time I would have needed one, I usually had removed one of their threats and placed one of mine, so being in the driver seat, I would get plenty of time to find an answer. In the worst case scenario, I always had at least one Bitterblossom in play blocking what I couldn't remove. I have a friend playing his own version of The Gate in which he has a few Diabolict Edict and I think 2 more instant removals, but he hasn't been able to convince me yet. In short, it's a weakness I'm aware of, but a weakness that hasn't evolved into a problem yet. I mean, Victim of the Night seems ok, but I would much prefer hit a good Hymn to Tourach turn 2 than wait for my opponent to play a spell and kill its creature by the end of his turn. Not even talking about that extra card we get off.

How is 2x Liliana working for you? It's also a big difference between my deck and my friend's, and so far, I've always won the Liliana race we've been in that lead one of us to victory. Of course mirror match my be ''special'', but I wouldn't trade a Liliana for anything else. Have you tried SoLaS? Being able to bring back Gatekeeper and Nighthawk makes a world of differences, and the protection from Swords to Plowshares really shines in today's meta.

[Novembermike]

I'll be honest, I feel like a lot of this is going to be meta calls. My problem with Faerie Macabre is that I think I'd feel bad whenever I cast it as a creature and I don't feel like the effect is powerful enough for me to use it to shrink Tarmogoyf very often. It might be worth testing the card out a bit since it is a powerful effect but I'm not sure I like it main board.

As for Duress vs Thoughtseize vs Inquisition, a lot of that is going to be a meta call. If you are really afraid of Jace then it might make sense to run some number of Heroe's Downfall's since that gets you targeted removal against creature decks and it'll also take care of planeswalkers.

Liliana's a good card and I could be convinced to run more but I don't really want to see multiples very often and she feels best after I've gone past the phase where my spot discard is good so I don't think I want more than two of her. Sword of Light and Shadow is good but I feel like I want to get a Jitte more.

[Michael Keller]

I'll be honest, I feel like a lot of this is going to be meta calls. My problem with Faerie Macabre is that I think I'd feel bad whenever I cast it as a creature and I don't feel like the effect is powerful enough for me to use it to shrink Tarmogoyf very often. It might be worth testing the card out a bit since it is a powerful effect but I'm not sure I like it main board.

Tarmogoyf was not the reason Faerie Macabre was played in the main. In fact, Tarmogoyf as a threat against The Gate is laughable; the deck is loaded with removal. The reason it was played was to shore up the Reanimator matchup back in 2010 right when Mystical Tutor got the axe. Reanimator as a strategy is powerful still, but now you're looking at strategies with Punishing Fire where that can be a pain in the ass. Dredge has also come a long way in four years.

I'm simply saying you don't have to run it main if you don't want to. But its utility should not be undersold: there are extremely powerful strategies that use the graveyard in Legacy, so having that safety net can be huge. And, once again [at worst], it's a reasonable flying body that carries Jitte.

[Beatusnox]

So I've lurked in this thread for a long time, and figured what the hell I'd post the list that I have been testing online.


//Dudes 16
2 Phyrexian obliterator
2 Abyssal Persecutor
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Dark Confidant
4 Vampire nighthawk
//Discard and Kill 18
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Innocent Blood
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Liliana of the veil
3 Cabal Therapy
//Good stuff 5
3 Bitterblossom
2 Umezawa's Jitte
//Lands
2 Wasteland
19 Swamp



So far its been alright in testing, not seeming to be too much of a slam dunk, but then again, I am playing online with no sideboard against cockatrice kiddies so that probably has a lot to do with it.

[Fry]

I haven't played this deck in awhile, but the Faerie Macabre can also hit the targets of Deathrite Shaman, a card a lot of people forget targets a card in the graveyard. It can also be returned with Sword of Light and Shadow, part of why I will play one(doubtfully two) along with Jitte when I pull the cards out of my stash.

I've been thinking about throwing a list together again to change things up a bit from MUD and Death and Taxes.

[Mystical_Jackass]

I was thinking about this before, but the one MU that seems like it'd be extremely difficult for The Gate and a lot of classic mono black aggro decks is "Shardless".

If we juxtapose Shardless vs The Gate, there's a lot of similarities in some of the card options right. The only difference is that they seem to do it while generating far more CA. While gatekeeper is CA, Shardless Agent into Hymn/Decay/Goyf/Recall/Strix (in most cases) simply outperforms it. Baleful Strix is an absolute brick wall vs Percy/Obliterator/Tombstalkers while generating immediate CA unlike Confidant that has to wait a turn. And DRS provides gy removal without sacrificing itself (although not instant), so it can obsolete strategies while chipping at their life. And with FoW and discard package, it handles combo better. Long story short, it seems to have cheap answers to most of decks like this' tricks while gaining CA while accomplishing a similar strategy. The one thing I think this deck would have going for it is Bitterblossom + Jitte can completely wreck decks like that, but then again Abrupt Decay can always shut either down quick, but still Blossom is pretty beastly. I think contamination engine could shut a deck like that down pretty good though.

[Michael Keller]

I was thinking about this before, but the one MU that seems like it'd be extremely difficult for The Gate and a lot of classic mono black aggro decks is "Shardless".

If we juxtapose Shardless vs The Gate, there's a lot of similarities in some of the card options right. The only difference is that they seem to do it while generating far more CA. While gatekeeper is CA, Shardless Agent into Hymn/Decay/Goyf/Recall/Strix (in most cases) simply outperforms it. Baleful Strix is an absolute brick wall vs Percy/Obliterator/Tombstalkers while generating immediate CA unlike Confidant that has to wait a turn. And DRS provides gy removal without sacrificing itself (although not instant), so it can obsolete strategies while chipping at their life. And with FoW and discard package, it handles combo better. Long story short, it seems to have cheap answers to most of decks like this' tricks while gaining CA while accomplishing a similar strategy. The one thing I think this deck would have going for it is Bitterblossom + Jitte can completely wreck decks like that, but then again Abrupt Decay can always shut either down quick, but still Blossom is pretty beastly. I think contamination engine could shut a deck like that down pretty good though.

The Gate tends to be notoriously heavier on the removal suite, which is also key when comparing the one-on-one matchup between the two decks. You're also working under the assumption these creatures like DRS, Goyf and Strix are able to stick, which is generally unlikely. The showdown between threats in the mid-game is really a no-contest, where you're able to trump with Persecutor, Nighthawk or even Obliterator. Honestly, Deathrite Shaman is the least of your worries in this matchup - especially if you're running cheap removal like Deathmark and Innocent Blood. The Gate's creature suite is more dense and structured to dominate the board. This is true for Shardless, but not near the extent that it is for The Gate.

Shardless does have a better matchup against combo-based decks, that I'll agree with. But the trade-off here is that this deck is able to crush decks like RUG and Stone Blade - where Shardless actually has difficulties. There is no way to tempo out this deck with Stifle or Wasteland, and it has pinpoint discard to punish combo and aggro-combo strategies. I think the blatant and linear simplicity in how the deck is constructed and designed is what makes it difficult to beat with much of today's top-tier strategies.

I think piloting also goes a long way in how the deck plays out. A strong player with a well thought-out list can and should beat weaker players making myriads of mistakes with [on-paper] superior lists. Many newer players or players on a budget sought this archetype out because it was cheap to acquire, but make no mistake about it: a well-designed version of this deck praying on a meta filled with Delvers and Stoneforge Mystics can be hell in sleeves.

[Richard Cheese]

I think piloting also goes a long way in how the deck plays out. A strong player with a well thought-out list can and should beat weaker players making myriads of mistakes with [on-paper] superior lists. Many newer players or players on a budget sought this archetype out because it was cheap to acquire, but make no mistake about it: a well-designed version of this deck praying on a meta filled with Delvers and Stoneforge Mystics can be hell in sleeves.

What about a meta filled with Terminus/Jace?

[Zirath]

The Gate tends to be notoriously heavier on the removal suite, which is also key when comparing the one-on-one matchup between the two decks. You're also working under the assumption these creatures like DRS, Goyf and Strix are able to stick, which is generally unlikely. The showdown between threats in the mid-game is really a no-contest, where you're able to trump with Persecutor, Nighthawk or even Obliterator. Honestly, Deathrite Shaman is the least of your worries in this matchup - especially if you're running cheap removal like Deathmark and Innocent Blood. The Gate's creature suite is more dense and structured to dominate the board. This is true for Shardless, but not near the extent that it is for The Gate.

Shardless does have a better matchup against combo-based decks, that I'll agree with. But the trade-off here is that this deck is able to crush decks like RUG and Stone Blade - where Shardless actually has difficulties. There is no way to tempo out this deck with Stifle or Wasteland, and it has pinpoint discard to punish combo and aggro-combo strategies. I think the blatant and linear simplicity in how the deck is constructed and designed is what makes it difficult to beat with much of today's top-tier strategies.

I think piloting also goes a long way in how the deck plays out. A strong player with a well thought-out list can and should beat weaker players making myriads of mistakes with [on-paper] superior lists. Many newer players or players on a budget sought this archetype out because it was cheap to acquire, but make no mistake about it: a well-designed version of this deck praying on a meta filled with Delvers and Stoneforge Mystics can be hell in sleeves.

I actually disagree with the assessment that the Gate has a good Stoneblade match up. Batterskull is an almost unbeatable card for you if it ever hits play. It also is a devastating top deck. I think that the match up could become favourable but I have never seen the Gate succeed against Stoneblade consistently.

In addition, Shardless doesn't struggle much against RUG. Stifle is annoying, sure, but historical the rock decks are strong against RUG because of Abrupt Decay, Liliana and our own Goyfs.

I think for the Gate to succeed, the list needs to be very carefully laid out, because even one incorrect card can cause the deck to perform horribly. But then again, I am excited and eagerly await seeing you do that.

[KobeBryan]

What about a meta filled with Terminus/Jace?

you shouldn't have too big of a problem.

You have 3 bitterblossoms main, a bunch of discard and a bunch of wienies.

in your board a standard one should look as follows

4 leyline of void
3 pithing needle
2 phyrexian revoker
2 null rod
and whatever you want that fits your meta.

you definitely take out all your removal, ie. innocent blood, victim of night and you bring in needle and null rod and the revoker

[Richard Cheese]

you shouldn't have too big of a problem.

You have 3 bitterblossoms main, a bunch of discard and a bunch of wienies.


Bitterblossom is good, but discard and weenies seems terrible against a deck with a shitload of creature removal, Top/Brainstorm, and a soft lock.



in your board a standard one should look as follows

4 leyline of void
3 pithing needle
2 phyrexian revoker
2 null rod
and whatever you want that fits your meta.

you definitely take out all your removal, ie. innocent blood, victim of night and you bring in needle and null rod and the revoker

So they probably bring in EE and Disenchant (or Wear//Tear) and (additional) Council's Judgement. It's probably still better postboard since you have another relevant turn 1 play, but your threats outside Percy/Obliterator give them a lot of time to find answers, and there's really no answer to a resolved Counterbalance at all.

[KobeBryan]

Bitterblossom is good, but discard and weenies seems terrible against a deck with a shitload of creature removal, Top/Brainstorm, and a soft lock.



So they probably bring in EE and Disenchant (or Wear//Tear) and (additional) Council's Judgement. It's probably still better postboard since you have another relevant turn 1 play, but your threats outside Percy/Obliterator give them a lot of time to find answers, and there's really no answer to a resolved Counterbalance at all.

they have a total of 3 EE and disenchant in their board. You have 3 bitterblossoms, 2 revokers, 3 pithing needles, and 2 null rods.

It wouldn't be horrendous, unless you drop all your hate on the board at once.

But hey. there's a reason why miracles is a top deck. its good man.

[Richard Cheese]

they have a total of 3 EE and disenchant in their board. You have 3 bitterblossoms, 2 revokers, 3 pithing needles, and 2 null rods.

It wouldn't be horrendous, unless you drop all your hate on the board at once.

But hey. there's a reason why miracles is a top deck. its good man.

Yeah I'm not saying it's not doable, I'm just saying it's not going to be a cakewalk just because you have a bunch of hate. If they deal with your first piece of hate and get CB/Top online early, you could have a real hard time coming back.

[KobeBryan]

Yeah I'm not saying it's not doable, I'm just saying it's not going to be a cakewalk just because you have a bunch of hate. If they deal with your first piece of hate and get CB/Top online early, you could have a real hard time coming back.

every deck feels the same against miracles, except for merfolk. Unless you splash green for decays and goyf, this is all your gonna get.

[Michael Keller]

I actually disagree with the assessment that the Gate has a good Stoneblade match up. Batterskull is an almost unbeatable card for you if it ever hits play. It also is a devastating top deck. I think that the match up could become favourable but I have never seen the Gate succeed against Stoneblade consistently.

How in the world is a singleton Batterskull even remotely dangerous against this deck? First of all, someone needs to resolve Stoneforge Mystic turn two. Then, tapped out, they need to hope it doesn't get discarded by a Duress or Hymn. Or they have to hope Mystic doesn't die to one of any of the dozen removal spells in the deck, in which they'd be stuck on getting it into play. Assuming they can get to five mana - even against a Wasteland or two and get it in play - it again needs to survive a huge removal suite, or just die to a Nighthawk or kicked Gatekeeper. And for God's sake it is not swinging into an Obliterator.

Batterskull is really not great, dude. It takes time for it to get online, and this deck gains incremental advantage on the board with two-for-ones. Stoneforge Mystic would likely never stick in the first place, and even as a top-deck The Gate's threats really one-up the card hard.


In addition, Shardless doesn't struggle much against RUG. Stifle is annoying, sure, but historical the rock decks are strong against RUG because of Abrupt Decay, Liliana and our own Goyfs.

Shardless's mana-base is highly susceptible to tempo-based strategies. It's more than Stifle: Daze and Wasteland are highly annoying against the deck unless it lands turn-one DRS. It's not a bye by any means, but it's no easy out.


I think for the Gate to succeed, the list needs to be very carefully laid out, because even one incorrect card can cause the deck to perform horribly. But then again, I am excited and eagerly await seeing you do that.

I'm not sure I'll be running it this Saturday, but if I do I already have a list laid out.

[Michael Keller]

Bitterblossom is good, but discard and weenies seems terrible against a deck with a shitload of creature removal, Top/Brainstorm, and a soft lock.

I think that's debatable, though. We do run a healthy amount of targeted discard, so let's play fair and look at it from this perspective: Weenies and discard seem awesome against any deck by eliminating their key spells and flooding the board with creatures. Post-board Needle or Null Rod shut down Top or other shenanigans. Not an easy match-up, but again - if the draw is good it has way more than a puncher's chance.

[Zirath]

The Gate frequently goes to grinding games out. Batterskull is unfortunately a trump card in a grind. I agree that discarding it away is much more reliable in your lists (most people cut Duress). This is why I believe you have a better chance of generating a list that will be stronger overall.

[olwe]

I played the following deck recently at a local legacy night (go easy I'm not a very experienced legacy player, still lots of learning needed)


//Creatures
4 x dark confidant
4 x vampire nighthawk
3 x gatekeeper of malakir
3 x abyssal persecutor

//Instants
2 x disfigure
2 x geth's verdict
2 x hero's downfall

//Sorceries
4 x hymn to tourach
4 x duress
3 x cabal therapy
2 x innocent blood

//Planeswalkers
3 x liliana of the veil

//Artifacts
2 x umezawa's jitte

//Land
16 x swamp
1 x urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
1 x phyrexian tower
4 x wasteland

//Side
3 x marsh casualties
2 x null rod
2 x mindbreak trap
2 x ashen rider
2 x pithing needle
1 x perish
3 x faerie macabre


Matches:
Round 1 I played against shardless rug. I lost 2-0. I really felt like I couldn't keep up in this matchup. He ran bloodbraid elf, ancestral vision, shardless agent, and sylvan library as sources of card advantage. I would empty his hand and then he would refill it again. Super nice guy, had fun playing, but definitely felt outmatched.

Round 2 I played against true name/delver/deathrite shaman/lightning bolt.deck. I won 2-1. The game I lost I fell behind after wastelanding him, getting stuck on a few lands, and him recovering. In the other game, wasteland kept him off lands, hymn to tourach did work, and I won with abyssal persecutor which he could not remove, backed up by umezawa's jitte. I sac'd persecutor using phyrexian tower for the win. Great opponent.

Round 3 I played against traditional rug delver. I lost 2-1. I think I could have had this match but I made a play error in sequencing a wasteland and discard spell and walked into a daze. Good learning experience! Again the game I won was with a persecutor which was sac'd with a phyrexian tower. Again great games, cool opponent


Thoughts:
I didn't run bitterblossom because I thought it might be too slow. I see now that in some matchups it could really help.
I never got to use marsh casualties so can't comment on its effectiveness
Hymn to tourach really shined, and works to equalize all the card advantage other decks run.
Liliana really helps late game to pitch late game discard
Abyssal Persecutor is such a huge threat, my opponents really did not like seeing it land, requiring 2 for 1s to answer it.
Phyrexian tower helped me remove persecutor several times and also helped me cast one early by sac'ing a confidant I no longer wanted due to life loss
I was undecided on wasteland - several games I fell behind because I wastelanded my opponent and fell behind on land drops, but my opponent was able to ponder/brainstorm etc and recover easily. I was then left with 3 drops that I couldn't play. Other games however, it was truly game changing.
Had to drop after that b/c it was getting late
Had really awesome opponents and a great time!

[Darkenslight]

I think Ulcerate warrants testing in the Disfigure slot. Not too sure if the life-loss is too much, though.

[Michael Keller]

I think Ulcerate warrants testing in the Disfigure slot. Not too sure if the life-loss is too much, though.

It seems inferior to Dismember, which for one life more gives a creature -5/-5 and doesn't eat it to Chalice.

And that's assuming you actually only pay one mana for it in an all-black deck.

[B is for Big Job]

I have been playing a modern version of The Gate with Phyrexian Obliterator with Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx for acceleration to dump my hand asap. I use Phyrexian Arena instead of Dark Confidant so I wasn't losing as much life from flips like the Legacy version. The susceptibility to wasteland and having more lands that produce colorless might be going against of the best things about the deck; blanking opposing wastelands. Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth could be used to help fix but that just adds more targets to be wastelanded.

Has anyone tried running Gray Street Merchant? The casting cost is somewhat high but it could help finish an opponent off, gain life to stall and is a good wall/ chump blocker. It might not be so great with a Dark Confidanttrigger though. It is a great finisher in modern so why not try it in legacy?

[Richard Cheese]

I think that's debatable, though. We do run a healthy amount of targeted discard, so let's play fair and look at it from this perspective: Weenies and discard seem awesome against any deck by eliminating their key spells and flooding the board with creatures. Post-board Needle or Null Rod shut down Top or other shenanigans. Not an easy match-up, but again - if the draw is good it has way more than a puncher's chance.

Flooding the board with creatures is generally a terrible plan against a deck with 4 Terminus (unless you're talking specifically about Bitterblossom tokens). Persecutor is also a decent threat that you can basically sit on and force them to act, but again you need to actually find and resolve him. Meanwhile you've got some underwhelming cards like Nighthawk and Gatekeeper, and things that are more or less dead like Innocent Blood and Disfigure/Dismember. Again, not saying it's unwinnable, but especially game 1 I would put it strongly in Miracles' favor. I don't buy into the argument that it just takes the right draws to win, because you could make that case for essentially any deck in any matchup.

[Michael Keller]

Flooding the board with creatures is generally a terrible plan against a deck with 4 Terminus (unless you're talking specifically about Bitterblossom tokens). Persecutor is also a decent threat that you can basically sit on and force them to act, but again you need to actually find and resolve him. Meanwhile you've got some underwhelming cards like Nighthawk and Gatekeeper, and things that are more or less dead like Innocent Blood and Disfigure/Dismember. Again, not saying it's unwinnable, but especially game 1 I would put it strongly in Miracles' favor. I don't buy into the argument that it just takes the right draws to win, because you could make that case for essentially any deck in any matchup.

That just seems like flawed logic. If you're up against a deck with four Terminus, it's egregious to assume a Gatekeeper of Malakir is going the distance to beat a Miracles player. You're not "out-controlling" them, and the longer you wait the worse it gets. You're better off going for an all-out assault as fast as possible as opposed to biding your time and giving them a chance to find one of their four Terminus in game one.

[KobeBryan]

That just seems like flawed logic. If you're up against a deck with four Terminus, it's egregious to assume a Gatekeeper of Malakir is going the distance to beat a Miracles player. You're not "out-controlling" them, and the longer you wait the worse it gets. You're better off going for an all-out assault as fast as possible as opposed to biding your time and giving them a chance to find one of their four Terminus in game one.

Sorry Hollywood, I actually don't agree with you on the way to play against miracles. I would never drop my whole hand against them and would leave 1-2 creatures in my hand at all times in case of terminus.

One - 2 threats on the board is enough to put enough pressure on them to find answers and use their spells.

[Michael Keller]

Sorry Hollywood, I actually don't agree with you on the way to play against miracles. I would never drop my whole hand against them and would leave 1-2 creatures in my hand at all times in case of terminus.

One - 2 threats on the board is enough to put enough pressure on them to find answers and use their spells.

No and that's fine, I'm not saying dump your hand, but dropping a trio of dudes seems better than working off a single weenie. Also take into consideration they run removal, so only two might stick.

[Richard Cheese]

That just seems like flawed logic. If you're up against a deck with four Terminus, it's egregious to assume a Gatekeeper of Malakir is going the distance to beat a Miracles player. You're not "out-controlling" them, and the longer you wait the worse it gets. You're better off going for an all-out assault as fast as possible as opposed to biding your time and giving them a chance to find one of their four Terminus in game one.

Which is exactly why a bunch of weenies is underwhelming against the deck? The longer you wait, the worse it gets...so you commit 2-3 guys to putting them on a reasonable clock, which is basically walking right into Terminus. It's not like these are Goblin Guides or Delvers either...it's 2/x's for 2/3 mana, without any acceleration. That gives them a lot of time to work on their hand/board state.

I really think the best chance game 1 is to try and hit counters/counterbalance with discard on turn 1, and drop Bitterblossom T2. That will put them under a lot of pressure to find Council's Judgement, which I mostly only see as a 1-of. Until they get rid of it, it basically blanks all their wincons, except maybe a Terminus followed by a big end-step Entreat.

At least for me. You could probably register a ham sandwich and top 8 a 6-round event.

[Scott]

I have been playing a modern version of The Gate with Phyrexian Obliterator with Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx for acceleration to dump my hand asap. I use Phyrexian Arena instead of Dark Confidant so I wasn't losing as much life from flips like the Legacy version. The susceptibility to wasteland and having more lands that produce colorless might be going against of the best things about the deck; blanking opposing wastelands. Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth could be used to help fix but that just adds more targets to be wastelanded.

Has anyone tried running Gray Street Merchant? The casting cost is somewhat high but it could help finish an opponent off, gain life to stall and is a good wall/ chump blocker. It might not be so great with a Dark Confidanttrigger though. It is a great finisher in modern so why not try it in legacy?

Certainly go with what your testing has told you, but I wouldn't go in that direction. Confidant's a turn faster and adds to the overall card advantage theme, by also being a beater. The life loss shouldn't be a concern the vast majority of the time, especially with Legacy-legal Umezawa's Jitte and Vampire Nighthawk. Agreed about making opponents' Wastelands live being an undesirable outcome, particularly so given the deck philosophy.

As for Gray Merchant of Asphodel, admittedly I haven't tested it exhaustively, but I don't like anything being in this deck that doesn't truly affect the board or hand, through discard, creature removal, formidable creatures, etc. I don't think it's profitable to be getting into taking one-time hits at the opponent's life total with a 2/4 5 CMC creature in this deck. It does also make you top heavy in terms of mana cost, assuming you're running a couple Phyrexian Obliterators or Abyssal Persecutors too. By all means test both approaches and see what you think though.

[maharis]

I noodled around with a few versions of this deck this week. This was the version I settled on:

4 Dark Confidant
4 Vampire Nighthawk
3 Gatekeeper of Malakir
2 Phyrexian Obliterator

4 Thoughtseize
4 Liliana of the Veil
3 Innocent Blood
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Bitterblossom
2 Victim of Night

2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Wasteland
18 Swamp

2 Cursed Scroll
1 Perish
2 Pithing Needle
2 Ratchet Bomb
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Toxic Deluge

I have been playing it like a control deck, which is why I added the Tops. I tried the DRS-power out Lili or gatekeeper turn 2 thing and it just is not as good or consistent as other more aggressive decks. I think this strategy is really good against tempo/creature decks like Delver — you just remove their stuff and disrupt their plan, then in the late game you have lots of lifegain to undo what damage they did. Their creatures are often just dumb beaters with no additional value.

But since it's itself a control deck, Miracles can be tough game 1 simply because it is the better control deck with more relevant game 1 cards. They have problems with Bitterblossom, but you can't guarantee it. I am trying Cursed Scroll as a way to get another permanant source of every-turn damage that they can't deal with postboard.

I tried a white splash with Stoneforge and STP, but philosophically I didn't like it, plus it made opposing Wastelands a thing. I also tried a version with (3) Therapies and Persecutors instead of Thoughtseize and Obliterator, but I think it's more important to guarantee nabbing a card turn 1 and not needing an out to your own beater. I also swapped it from 3 CMC 1 discard 4 Hymn to the other way around for the same reason.

The equipment suite is really because of what I have on hand. I really think SoLaS is the best equipment in this deck, and ideally I'd play two of them of the FaF or FaI. On a Nighthawk, it is insane. But TNN and Tarmogoyf are a thing, and sometimes you only have a ground creature, and so each of them have their merits. With a little more selection via Top, I'm having fun playing all of them.

[KobeBryan]

Then play fetches

[maharis]

Then play fetches

Oh yeah. I forgot about that. It was just so satisfying to delete all the ancillary lands and just write "18 Swamp."

I think if I do that I can run 1 Bayou main and a couple Krosan Grip in the sideboard to deal with opposing Jittes, Batterskulls and Counterbalances.

[Scott]

I've been playing The Gate for a while now, and this has settled as my list.

// Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Vampire Nighthawk
3 Phyrexian Obliterator
1 Abyssal Persecutor

// Instants & Sorceries
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
3 Innocent Blood
2 Disfigure
2 Victim of Night
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Inquisition of Kozilek

// Artifacts
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Ratchet Bomb

// Enchantments
2 Bitterblossom

// Planeswalkers
2 Liliana of the Veil

// Lands
20 Swamp

// Sideboard
SB: 4 Toxic Deluge
SB: 3 Stillmoon Cavalier
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Duress
SB: 2 Extirpate
SB: 1 Sadistic Sacrament

Of note:

- I personally don't like Wasteland in the deck. We don't have many mana denial pieces, and compared to most decks we face, we operate better on 3-4 rather than 1-2 lands. It's often good, but most of the time I'd rather draw a spell, if we're counting it as a spell in the deck. If we're counting it as a land, I value kicking Gatekeeper and getting Obliterator out too much. There are problematic lands, like Maze of Ith and Grove of the Burnwillows, but there are more decks that I prefer drawing spells or additional threats against than decks that leave me wanting land destruction. I'd rather attack on different axes when it's necessary, for instance, Surgical Extraction/Extirpate on Life from the Loam decks with all their pesky lands.

- I only have 1 Cabal Therapy. I've found that it doesn't have the power that it does in Nic Fit because a.) It's a critical turn slower and b.) Bitterblossom tokens or other creatures aren't always as disposable as Veteran Explorers. It also makes for fewer missed guesses, but I like 1 as it usually follows a prior discard, and is a sac outlet to Persecutor. 3 Obliterators instead of Persecutors makes the Therapies less important too. I do like the 1 Persecutor to complement Nighthawk and Bitterblossom fliers, and the sometimes relevant +1/+1.

- Ratchet Bomb is an unorthodox choice but has been very useful. We have no 1 CMC permanents, it can be a sweeper against difficult aggro decks, it hits permanents that we otherwise can't deal with, and isn't really ever dead even if it's a little slow.

- For me, Disfigure and Victim of Night are the new Deathmarks.

[maharis]

I went 2-2 with my list last night at its initial run. It was mostly the same as I posted before but I tested a few one-ofs to see how they performed.

4 Dark Confidant
4 Vampire Nighthawk
3 Gatekeeper of Malakir
1 Phyrexian Obliterator
1 Abyssal Persecutor

4 Liliana of the Veil
3 Thoughtseize
3 Innocent Blood
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Bitterblossom
2 Victim of Night
1 Duress

2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Lashwrithe

4 Wasteland
4 Marsh Flats
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Mishra's Factory
1 Bayou
8 Swamp

2 Cursed Scroll
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Pithing Needle
2 Ratchet Bomb
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Krosan Grip

D&T 1-2, BUG Control (Phimus Phan build) 2-1, Affinity 0-2, Miracles 2-0.

Losses were way closer than it seems. D&T topdecked a crucial Flickerwisp to reset his Phyrexian Revoker in game 3 (had been on Liliana, but I had a Ratchet Bomb on 2 ready to go and he had a Jitte, SFM, and the Revoker). And against Affinity in game 1, vs. his Plating, Frogmite, and Etched Champion and like a billion artifact lands, I had a Nighthawk and a Jitte. I got counters on the Jitte by attacking when I should've held back, forced him to hold his Frogmite back, absorbed the Champion hit, then cracked back, killed the Champion and played a second Nighthawk to block the Frogmite. That might not make sense, but the win was there, I just didn't see the line. In the second game he had a Ravager and got me down to 1 when I had a bitterblossom out. The trouble I had in both those matches makes me feel like Marsh Casualties might be better than Toxic Deluge out of the board.

I actually played a warmup match against the BUG guy before the tournament, 3 games without sideboarding and went 2-1 there as well. Having Wasteland and not being vulnerable to Wasteland is a huge advantage. He told me I should play Powder Keg instead of Ratchet Bomb in case someone is playing artifact lands. I said, who ever does that?

Against Miracles I got turn 2 Bitterblossom in both games, then added a second one later. They hate seeing that card, haha. Actually, Bitterblossom is just insane overall. Affinity player had to Dispatch one of my tokens to keep his Signal Pest alive which felt good until he just won.

Top was ridiculous, I think I want to go to 3. I also am heavily considering moving Cursed Scroll to the main, I'm hellbent a lot and it seems to be an effect i want a lot. Obviously I'm not going to be playing as much equipment moving forward. I really think SoL&S is the best in this deck. It takes Nighthawk & Gatekeeper out of bolt, plow & decay range and gains a ridiculous amount of life on a Nighthawk. It gets you three Bitterblossom tokens and lets you recycle dead guys. So maybe an artifact configuration like:

3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Cursed Scroll
2 Sword of Light & Shadow
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire & Ice

Then run a couple thorns in the board for combo. To make room I could cut a Lili and the Persecutor. I rarely found myself really wanting one of my bombs so I think one Obliterator is plenty. The argument for playing Persecutor over Obliterator is that I could run more Factories, and Factory was good last night as well, but needing an out to your own guy is not something I want when I'm clocking myself with BB and Bob.

[Scott]

I actually disagree with the assessment that the Gate has a good Stoneblade match up. Batterskull is an almost unbeatable card for you if it ever hits play. It also is a devastating top deck. I think that the match up could become favourable but I have never seen the Gate succeed against Stoneblade consistently.

If you're having trouble with Stoneblade, I really like a couple Stillmoon Cavaliers in the sideboard. It's really good in grindy match ups, which happily are often the decks with white and black, like Stoneblade, D&T, BUG decks, Jund, Junk, etc. It's been like a better TNN against the appropriate decks. Stops germ tokens, Abrupt Decay, Maelstrom Pulse, Swords to Plowshares, Delver of Secrets, Tombstalker, Mangara of Corondor, Vindicate, a whole host of others, carries a Jitte extremely well with first strike.

[maharis]

I agree that Stoneforge/Batterskull is very difficult to come back from. I play Krosan Grip entirely because of Batterskull. Sword of Light & Shadow + Bitterblossom or Nighthawk is really good. Also Thoughtseize can hit either piece.

[Michael Keller]

I've got a lot to talk about as it pertains to this archetype going into several big tournaments coming up. After playing in the Star City Open to a mediocre 5-3 record with Grixis and looking at a flooded Top 16 of Delver and RUG/BUG variants, I'm completely sold on The Gate at this point as being a nightmarish match-up for the existing meta as it was four years ago.

I'll post more later, but this is the archetype I will be shifting back towards without question.

[MGB]

I've got a lot to talk about as it pertains to this archetype going into several big tournaments coming up. After playing in the Star City Open to a mediocre 5-3 record with Grixis and looking at a flooded Top 16 of Delver and RUG/BUG variants, I'm completely sold on The Gate at this point as being a nightmarish match-up for the existing meta as it was four years ago.

I'll post more later, but this is the archetype I will be shifting back towards without question.

No doubt this is the stark truth right now.

The entire meta is overrun with creature-light tempo decks that want to ride out 1-2 dudes to victory. This kind of meta is just ripe for the picking with a mono black deck packed full of Edict effects and targeted removal.

[HammafistRoob]

I honestly think you guys are a little too confident about the Delver matchups. Don't get me wrong, I believe The Gate to be favored in these matchups. At the same time though you're less consistent and you've got a plethora of tough matchups like Burn,Storm, and Miracles. It's kinda like playing the pairings lottery in a way almost like Death and Taxes does. Basically what I mean is, it seems like you've got good matchups and bad matchups with very little to no 50-50s. But if you manage to smash through the first 4 rounds or so, you're probably pretty comfortable at the top tables or even the top 8. Am I close in this assumption?

[maharis]

Anyone test with Empty the Pits? I did and it seems like the real deal. Instant speed, passes the STP test. My build runs 4 Wasteland, 7 fetches though so I have even more fuel than just the point discard and removal.

I'm thinking something like:

4 Dark Confidant
4 Vampire Nighthawk
2 Gatekeeper of Malakir

4 Thoughtseize
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Innocent Blood
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Victim of Night
2 Empty the Pits
2 Bitterblossom

3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Feast & Famine
1 Sword of Fire & Ice

8 Swamp
4 Wasteland
4 Marsh Flats
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Bayou

[jereminus]

(Sorry for the mistakes I will make when writing, I'm french)

Hi Gate lovers,

Just decided to move from my Pox deck to a Gate build.

I was wondering why there were no Dark Rituals at all in all The Gate lists played around and listed in this forum.
I understand that instead of topdecking a Rit, one would prefer to get anything else (creature, removal,...).
But when playing Pox, being able to play a T1 Liliana, or Thoughtseize + Sinkhole, or Thoughtseize + Hymn, was just so good.

For the Gate, my first feeling was that a T1 Nighthawk, or T2 Percy/Obliterator (or even T1 with 2 Rits), could be really strong.
I would try cutting maybe a couple of swamps for 4 Rits.

Any thoughts/experience on that ?

Thanks..

[DarkJester]

(Sorry for the mistakes I will make when writing, I'm french)

Hi Gate lovers,

Just decided to move from my Pox deck to a Gate build.

I was wondering why there were no Dark Rituals at all in all The Gate lists played around and listed in this forum.
I understand that instead of topdecking a Rit, one would prefer to get anything else (creature, removal,...).
But when playing Pox, being able to play a T1 Liliana, or Thoughtseize + Sinkhole, or Thoughtseize + Hymn, was just so good.

For the Gate, my first feeling was that a T1 Nighthawk, or T2 Percy/Obliterator (or even T1 with 2 Rits), could be really strong.
I would try cutting maybe a couple of swamps for 4 Rits.

Any thoughts/experience on that ?

Thanks..

That sounds like bad trades in your near future ;)

[LDX]

(Sorry for the mistakes I will make when writing, I'm french)

Hi Gate lovers,

Just decided to move from my Pox deck to a Gate build.

I was wondering why there were no Dark Rituals at all in all The Gate lists played around and listed in this forum.
I understand that instead of topdecking a Rit, one would prefer to get anything else (creature, removal,...).
But when playing Pox, being able to play a T1 Liliana, or Thoughtseize + Sinkhole, or Thoughtseize + Hymn, was just so good.

For the Gate, my first feeling was that a T1 Nighthawk, or T2 Percy/Obliterator (or even T1 with 2 Rits), could be really strong.
I would try cutting maybe a couple of swamps for 4 Rits.

Any thoughts/experience on that ?

Thanks..

You're all about card advantage in The Gate.

Just saying, you're on the play. You play Dark Ritual into Vampire Nighthawk instead of your typical discard T1. Your opponent plays Delver, Deathrite Shaman, or any turn-1 creature.

How do you Innocent Blood?

Dark Ritual is an excellent card, but it just doesn't fit The Gate at all.

[Mystical_Jackass]

@Dark Ritual

That probably makes more sense in a Pox deck. I've played all types of Mono Black. Ritual is the ultimate risk/reward card, it works great in Sui where you're taking a calculated risk making those T1 power plays like seize/hymn, Negator, or Hippie in hopes to use early advantage to catapult you to win. Pox is sort of like that too, it needs to f' up opponents gameplan early before they can recover, then win 'cause your deck's better suited for that. The Gate seems to win off consistency more like classic MBA, it's trying to use its CA and straightup outplay opponent. It's not not CA like "Treasure Cruise" per se, but more like the black Zoo, every one of its cards are more efficient than opponents at what they do, similar to Goyf and Mystic being most efficient 2 drops this deck accomplishes same with Blossom, Confidant, Gakekeeper and Percy. Adding ritual is always tempting but really won't put you that far ahead in an attrition match and getting 2-for-1'd would be a game over.

[jereminus]

Thanks all for your replies regarding the dark rituals, definitely makes sense...
I will follow your valuable advice.
Thanks

[jereminus]

That sounds like bad trades in your near future ;)

Ok, i'm not sure I caught the understatement here :smile: that's the issue with not being a native..

[Robert the Bruce]

Hello Gatekeepers,

I recently took the following list to a 4-0 finish at my LGS:

Cursed Gate

4-Mishra's Factory
20-Swamp

3-Cursed Scroll

4-Gatekeeper of Malakir
4-Vampire Nighthawk
3-Abyssal Persecutor

4-Bitterblossom
4-Liliana of the Veil

2-Umezawa's Jitte

4-Innocent Blood

4-Thoughtseize
4-Cabal Therapy

SB (put together in haste. Likely not ideal):

3-Pithing Needle
4-Leyline of the Void
4-Marsh Casualties
4-Wasteland

Round 1 (U/R Treasure Cruise Delver):
G1: He wins the roll and starts off with a turn 1 Delver of Secrets. I cast discard for a couple turns (nabbing two Treasure Cruises with a Cabal Therapy), then land a kicked Gatekeeper to remove the flying insect. Percy shows up soon after and wins it for me while I'm at two life.

G2: (no sb) I take a hard early beating from a Delver and Monastery Swiftspear. A couple Innocent Bloods and a Liliana allow me to stabilize and get back into the game. We trade creatures for a while, until he casts Treasure Cruise and goes back ahead. Despite this, I'm almost able to pull it off with a Jitte-equipped Vampire Nighthawk, but he brainstorms into enough burn to get there.

G3: (no sb): Early Innocent Bloods and discard followed by Liliana and an active Cursed Scroll put me in a solid position. He comes pretty close to getting back into it with A Treasure Cruise and some burn spells, but scroll and a few Bitterblossom fairies get there for me.


Round 2 (Elves):
G1: I win the dice roll, and start off with Thoughtseize removing his Glimpse of Nature. He puts a respectable number of elves on the board, but I'm able to handle them with faeries, a Cursed Scroll, and a Nighthawk. They eventually get there for me before he's able to find anything.

G2: (sb out: 4-Thoughtseize. In: 4-Marsh Casualties)
He gets an early horde into play that I'm able to drastically reduce with an unkicked Marsh Casualties. A couple kicked Gatekeepers and later a Cursed Scroll keep things from getting out of hand, and eventually win it for me.


Round 3 (Miracles):
G1: I win the roll. Things start off with a Thoughtseize and an unkicked Gatekeeper, while he assembles CounterTop. The Gatekeeper is soon Terminus'd, but he is unable to deal with the two Mishra's Factories I draw, and eventually they get there.

G2: (sb out: 3-Cursed Scroll. In: 3-Pithing Needle)
Similar to above, except that I don't see my Factories or Needles. I somehow get a Vampire Nighthawk through his CounterTop, which goes some distance before being met by a squadron of Angels. These same Angels (minus one) finish me off.

G3: I start off with Cabal Therapy taking 2x Force of Will, then Needle naming Sensei's Divining Top. Then Liliana and Percy show up to seal the deal.


Round 4 (Esper Stoneblade)
G1: He wins the roll. We both mull to six, keeping marginal hands. He starts off by Thoughtseizing away my Liliana, and following up with a Stoneforge Mystic for Umezawa's Jitte. I use Cabal Therapy to name Jitte, see that he also has Batterskull in hand, and then use my freshly drawn Innocent Blood to remove the Mystic. We play Draw-Go for a few turns. Eventually he gets a Lingering Souls while I land a Bitterblossom, and our respective tokens fight it out. He lands Batterskull. I draw and cast Vampire Nighthawk. He Swords to Plowshares' the Nighthawk and swings for a couple turns with Batterskull until I'm able to stop it with another Innocent Blood (removing a spirit token) and kicked Gatekeeper (also soon plowed). He gets more Lingering Souls to battle my faeries, and recasts the Batterskull. I land another Nighthawk, and then a Cursed Scroll. Scroll keeps his spirits down, while Nighthawk stems my Bitterblossom lifeloss, but his active Batterskull (being blocked by a faerie each turn) plus more Lingering Souls tokens keeps us at an effective stalemate. I finally get there after scroll is able to dispatch his spirit tokens. Long game!

G2: (sb out: 1-Abyssal Persecutor, 1-Liliana of the Veil)
We start out with a flurry of discard on both sides (him with Thoughtseize plus Snapcaster Mage, me with Thoughtseize followed by Cabal Therapy), and both our hands are soon gone. I recover faster with a Mishra's Factory and Percy, and soon get there.

Overall thoughts and impressions:
-In (albeit brief) testing so far, I have found Dark Confidant to be somewhat lackluster. I ended up putting Cursed Scroll in it's place, and it's been fantastic! It gives the deck more board control redundancy, and often makes up for the inherent lack of consistency that these types on non-blue midrange/control decks sometimes have. In some ways it's comparable to Punishing Fires in Jund lists. This proved vital in several matches above, and has often won me games that Dark Confidant would not have.

-Four Bitterblossoms have so far worked well, for the same redundancy reasons listed above.
Three might still be correct though.

-I never used or wanted the Wastelands in the sideboard. They will likely be removed for something else (not sure what just yet). Hymn to Tourach is a possibility for an extra tool against combo and control.

-I'm not completely sold on the Marsh Casualties in the sideboard either. Though they often perform well, there are also times when -1/-1 isn't enough, and the kicker is often prohibitive. Perhaps they might be replaced by Drown in Sorrow/Ratchet Bomb/?

-Not sure if this deck's good performance so far is due to the surprise factor (or just plain good luck) or not, but perhaps something like this could be a contender in the current Delver-meta?

Thoughts?

[Darkenslight]

Robert, nice performance. Would you ever consider either Black Sun's Zenith or Toxic Deluge?

[Robert the Bruce]

I hadn't considered Black Sun's Zenith, but I did test Toxic Deluge a bit. Both are possibilities, and may actually be better than Marsh Casualties.
However, in my testing I have found the 3cc to be an issue against decks like Elves (as you don't have any mana acceleration, and they can often combo off/execute their gameplan before you can effectively use it). This is largely why I went with the Marsh Casualties.
That being said, perhaps a revamped sideboard to include a few 1cc targeted removal (maybe Disfigure or Dismember) to suppliment Innocent Blood might do the trick, and make Toxic Deluge/BSZ a better option.

[Bruno]

I play with a pox is quite long but definitely tired of the deck .
I want to continue with a more straightforward deck . So I chose The Gate .
I plan on using this list:


3 Abyssal Persecutor
4 Bloodghast
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Vampire Nighthawk

4 Mishra's Factory
17 Swamp

3 Bitterblossom
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Cursed Scroll
4 Innocent Blood
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte

[sporenfrosch1411]

Given the many URx Delver lists and the success of Burn => is Liliana really worth it?

[olwe]

Given the many URx Delver lists and the success of Burn => is Liliana really worth it?

Good point about Liliana of the veil, one other idea is that Phyrexian Obliterator might be the big monster of choice with all the burn around, however he is vulnerable to dismember.

How are folks doing with the gate - anyone playing it currently? It seems to be fairly decent against the delver decks, as we run so much board control and they have relatively few threats. Hollywood you had mentioned picking the deck back up - did you ever have a chance to work on it?

[ceustice]

Here is the list we're playing with in the current meta:

The Gate 3.0
By: The Dojo

Creatures [15]
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Phyrexian Obliterator
4 Vampire Nighthawk
3 Gray Merchant of Asphodel

Planeswalkers [4]
4 Liliana, of the Veil

Enchantments [4]
4 Phyrexian Arena

Instants [7]
4 Malicious Affliction
3 Hero's Downfall
1 Disfigure

Sorcerys [6]
3 Thoughtsieze
2 Inquisition of Koziliek
1 Marsh Cadualties

Lands [23]
2 Bojuka Bog
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Mishra's Factory
13 Swamp



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[B is for Big Job]

Here is the list we're playing with in the current meta:

The Gate 3.0
By: The Dojo

Creatures [15]
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Phyrexian Obliterator
4 Vampire Nighthawk
3 Gray Merchant of Asphodel

Planeswalkers [4]
4 Liliana, of the Veil

Enchantments [4]
4 Phyrexian Arena

Instants [7]
4 Malicious Affliction
3 Hero's Downfall
1 Disfigure

Sorcerys [6]
3 Thoughtsieze
2 Inquisition of Koziliek
1 Marsh Cadualties

Lands [23]
2 Bojuka Bog
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Mishra's Factory
13 Swamp



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I really like your list as it's close to what I play, Malicious Affliction is a pretty solid addition. Have you thought/ tested adding 1 or 2 nykthos, shrine to nyx? It could provide a good boost to windmill slam 2-3 threats in a turn and steal some games.

[ceustice]

I really like your list as it's close to what I play, Malicious Affliction is a pretty solid addition. Have you thought/ tested adding 1 or 2 nykthos, shrine to nyx? It could provide a good boost to windmill slam 2-3 threats in a turn and steal some games.

I have I just haven't had a chance to test it yet, I'm also not sure if it is better than Cabal Coffers. In just theory crafting Coffers seems better.


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[Bruno]

Someone tried to splash white ? How did you ?
Can anyone help me with my list ? I plan on making my first test as follows:

2 Abyssal Persecutor
3 Dark Confidant
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Vampire Nighthawk

3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
3 Scrubland
4 Swamp
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

1 Batterskull
1 Bitterblossom
2 Cabal Therapy
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Innocent Blood
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Vindicate

[Mr. Safety]

I hadn't considered Black Sun's Zenith, but I did test Toxic Deluge a bit. Both are possibilities, and may actually be better than Marsh Casualties.
However, in my testing I have found the 3cc to be an issue against decks like Elves (as you don't have any mana acceleration, and they can often combo off/execute their gameplan before you can effectively use it). This is largely why I went with the Marsh Casualties.
That being said, perhaps a revamped sideboard to include a few 1cc targeted removal (maybe Disfigure or Dismember) to suppliment Innocent Blood might do the trick, and make Toxic Deluge/BSZ a better option.

Darkblast seems good.

[pullanc]

Do you guys think that with the banning of TC this deck might be a little better positioned right now?

[Admiral_Arzar]

Do you guys think that with the banning of TC this deck might be a little better positioned right now?

I would only take this deck if your meta was overrun with Delver and maybe Death and Taxes. It struggles against fast combo and midrange blue decks that have strong card-advantage engines (Blade, Shardless, etc.).

[Gui]

Shouldn't Hero's Downfall be added in every The Gate deck around? Card's insane powerful.

EDIT: Never mind, I read the cost wrong. skip my comment pls xD

[Echelon]

Shouldn't Hero's Downfall be added in every The Gate deck around? Card's insane powerful.

EDIT: Never mind, I read the cost wrong. skip my comment pls xD

Well... Ok then... *Puts down the pitchfork*

[olwe]

I would only take this deck if your meta was overrun with Delver and maybe Death and Taxes. It struggles against fast combo and midrange blue decks that have strong card-advantage engines (Blade, Shardless, etc.).

Speaking of those midrange blue decks with card advantage, how would you recommend playing against them with this deck? Any tips? I played one deck with shardless/bloodbraid/ancestral vision and could not keep up against the card advantage. Normal RUG delver was much easier.

[Scott]

Speaking of those midrange blue decks with card advantage, how would you recommend playing against them with this deck? Any tips? I played one deck with shardless/bloodbraid/ancestral vision and could not keep up against the card advantage. Normal RUG delver was much easier.

Against midrange decks with Abrupt Decay/Lightning Bolt/Punishing Fire, I value Phyrexian Obliterator and Abyssal Persecutor, as well as giving it company, for edicts. Against the ones without red removal, like Blade and Shardless, I like Stillmoon Cavalier from the sideboard, which helps against Swords to Plowshares/Maelstrom Pulse/Abrupt Decay/germ tokens/Tombstalker/Delver/Vindicate, and should blank them unless they have Council's Judgment.

Edit: I don't have experience against it so take this with a grain of salt, but if you were playing against RUG Cascade without Decay, I still like Phyrexian Obliterator as a near-impervious threat that also holds off their ground-pounders, as well as Abyssal Persecutor. I'm sure, like Shardless BUG, they have quick games in which they power out creatures, but their slower clock compared to Thresh, and less relevant removal, makes me think that landing Bitterblossom and Umezawa's Jitte would be big on keeping up on card advantage. Chains of Mephistopheles from the sideboard couldn't hurt. Apart from the blocking ability of Obliterator/Bitterblossom and the quasi-removal of Jitte, a lot of the strength of these cards in the match-up are dependent on not being behind on board. I've seen people board in Toxic Deluge against things like Jund to address that but I can't speak to its effectiveness. I'd also have to think more about what to board out against RUG Cascade. On the shortlist, I'd have Hymn because of the likelihood of topdecking it in a grindfest, Liliana because of their number of threats and the specter of discarding cards against an attrition deck, and maybe even Confidant.

[ironclad8690]

The Gate with a light green splash did well at the most recent legacy classic:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Bloodghast
4 Vampire Nighthawk

4 Abrupt Decay
4 Geth's Verdict
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow

2 Polluted Delta
8 Swamp
2 Bayou
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wasteland
2 Woodland Cemetery

Sideboard
3 Engineered Plague
4 Pithing Needle
2 Ratchet Bomb
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Trinisphere

[TokenMaster]

Has anyone tested maindeck chalice for combo matchups?

I'm thinking:

4 Asylum Visitor
4 Vampire Nighthawk
3 Abyssal Persecutor
1 Gatekeeper of Malakir

3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Thoughtseize
3 Bitterblossom
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Sword of Fire and Ice
3 Innocent Blood
4 Hymn to Tourach

4 Wasteland
19 Swamp

[Cpt-Qc]

imo the problem with chalice is you must be able to get it out T1 or it's not even worth it since there are good chalice decks that can already do it (MUD, Eldrazi, Loam, Tezzerator, etc).
It's not bad, but why bother playing this deck if others can just do what it does better.

Now if we found a way to include sol lands or moxens it would be terrific.

[EdsonDettoni]

imo the problem with chalice is you must be able to get it out T1 or it's not even worth it since there are good chalice decks that can already do it (MUD, Eldrazi, Loam, Tezzerator, etc).
It's not bad, but why bother playing this deck if others can just do what it does better.

Now if we found a way to include sol lands or moxens it would be terrific.

I agree with that.

Now...

What do you think about a build like this?:


// Lands
22 [P2] Swamp (3)

// Creatures
2 [NPH] Phyrexian Obliterator
4 [ZEN] Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 [MBS] Phyrexian Revoker
4 [SOI] Asylum Visitor

// Spells
4 [NPH] Dismember
4 [TE] Cursed Scroll
4 [ISD] Liliana of the Veil
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [ROE] Inquisition of Kozilek


// Sideboard
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 4 [SOM] Ratchet Bomb
SB: 3 [NPH] Geth's Verdict
SB: 2 [C13] Toxic Deluge
SB: 2 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [MOR] Bitterblossom

// Other?
SB: 1 [ZEN] Marsh Casualties
SB: 1 [ZEN] Vampire Nighthawk
SB: 1 [OD] Cabal Pit
SB: 1 [TE] Wasteland
SB: 1 [LRW] Oona's Prowler
SB: 1 [ISD] Victim of Night
SB: 1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte

[Cpt-Qc]

http://www.magicspoiler.com/mtg-spoiler/gifted-aetherborn/

"Gifted Aetherborn, BB, Lifelink/Deathtouch, 2/3"
Basically Vampire Night-Walk :really:

It's not quite what I had hoped for but maybe we'll get there someday! I would gladly trade lifelink for flying....

[Captain Hammer]

I vastly prefer this new Vampire Not-Hawk to Bitterblossom in traditional Gate lists. Plus running 4 of these opens up the possibility of replacing our Nighthawks with Hypnotic Specter for old times sake. Hippie is seriously underrated and the only reason The Gate hadn't been able to support it is that Nighthawk clogged up the 3cc space. Hippe also synergies really well with Asylum Visitor.

And I likewise vastly prefer Fatal Push to Innocent Blood in any deck that still runs Innocent Blood. I think Fatal Push is superior to Victim of the Night as well.

Both cards are exactly what this deck needed to breathe some life into it in both legacy and modern.

I also think it's a mistake not to play a Reanimate or two to accompany the 4 Thoughtseizes, Lilanas, Removal and Hymns the deck runs especially in the current meta.

As an aside, can't believe Cursed Scroll is still a thing in legacy, it's such a slow and mana intensive option compared to modern alternatives. I would much rather run equipment or vehicles to Scroll. Have any Scroll players tested any vehicles in their slot?

My proposed list...

19 Swamp
1 Volrath's Stronghold

4 Gifted Aetherborn
3 Dark Confidant
3 Asylum Visitor
3 Gatekeeper of Malakir
3 Hypnotic Specter
2 Phyrexian Obliterator

4 Fatal Blow
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Liliana of the Veil
2 Victim of the Night
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Dark Ritual
1 Reanimate


The list is finely tuned for the current meta. Aetherborn and Liliana serve double duty as removal so you're effectively maindecking 17 removal spells against Eldrazi preboard (Dismembers from the board help some more). You draw a ton of cards allowing you to find an Obliterator and once you land an Obliterator, traditional Eldrazi lists have zero ways to win the game. It also plays a crapton of discard and card advantage giving it great game against control/miracles as well as combo. The one ofs are all bombs that I never want to draw multiples of but are rock solid as singletons. Yes the deck can lose a lot of life but never enough to cost it the game.

However if you're worried about life loss, you could easily go...
-4 Thoughtseize
-1 Reanimate
+4 Inquisition of Kozilek
+1 Dark Ritual

[Cpt-Qc]

I vastly prefer this new Vampire Not-Hawk to Bitterblossom in traditional Gate lists. Plus running 4 of these opens up the possibility of replacing our Nighthawks with Hypnotic Specter for old times sake. Hippie is seriously underrated and the only reason The Gate hadn't been able to support it is that Nighthawk clogged up the 3cc space. Hippe also synergies really well with Asylum Visitor.

And I likewise vastly prefer Fatal Push to Innocent Blood in any deck that still runs Innocent Blood. I think Fatal Push is superior to Victim of the Night as well.

Both cards are exactly what this deck needed to breathe some life into it in both legacy and modern.

I also think it's a mistake not to play a Reanimate or two to accompany the 4 Thoughtseizes, Lilanas, Removal and Hymns the deck runs especially in the current meta.
l

I agree on new vampire replacing Bitterblossom 100%. It just is a better threat for the 2 slot. Still I'm not sure cutting nighthawk is the right call since Specter is cool and all but it's pretty much dead by turn 4 unless you found no other discard. The only reason it was pushed before was T1 Dark Rit into Specter.

And I don't like Asylum Visitor... BoB is just a better threat overall since he must be answered ASAP.

I would still keep Innocent Blood since it goes around Shroud/Hexproof/Protection. Fatal push is definitely better than Victim of Night but now you HAVE to play fetches/wasteland to make the second mode more reliable.
While we're at it, might as well add 2 bayous to splash for Decay.

Edit: I made a quick list. It's probably gonna change but it's gonna be where I start from in testing:

2 Abyssal Persecutor
3 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Dark Confidant
4 Gifted Aetherborn

4 Fatal Push
2 Abrupt Decay

3 Innocent Blood
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Duress

2 Liliana of the Veil

2 Umezawa's Jitte

10 Swamp
4 Wasteland
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Polluted Delta
2 Bayou

SB: 2 Extirpate
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Chains of Mephistopheles
SB: 2 Toxic Deluge
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 2 Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 Engineered Plague

[ntropy]

As an aside, can't believe Cursed Scroll is still a thing in legacy, it's such a slow and mana intensive option compared to modern alternatives. I would much rather run equipment or vehicles to Scroll. Have any Scroll players tested any vehicles in their slot?


Hey I follow this thread for kicks, but I'm a Pox player really, and nothing really replaces Cursed Scroll. Repeatable creature removal, win condition, will never be sacrificed to Smallpox (or Pox), can be cast for an incidental mana and just wait around to be useful. I do, however think that a deck full of Nighthawks, Gatekeepers, and Dark Confidants might be a good place to try out Smuggler's Copter.

[Captain Hammer]

2 Abyssal Persecutor
3 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Dark Confidant
4 Gifted Aetherborn

2 Innocent Blood
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Fatal Push
4 Abrupt Decay

2 Liliana of the Veil

2 Umezawa's Jitte

10 Swamp
3 Wasteland
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
2 Bayou

SB: 3 Extirpate
SB: 3 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Toxic Deluge
SB: 3 Leyline of the Void
SB: 3 Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 Engineered Plague

FTFY. Your initial list had 3 Duress where Abrupt Decay should be.

If you're splashing green and fetchlands, Deathrite Shaman and a Tasigur seem like auto includes. I would definitely play a few Shaman and a Tasigur in any BG builds.

Once you go BG, the deck stops becoming The Gate imo.

[Captain Hammer]

Hey I follow this thread for kicks, but I'm a Pox player really, and nothing really replaces Cursed Scroll. Repeatable creature removal, win condition, will never be sacrificed to Smallpox (or Pox), can be cast for an incidental mana and just wait around to be useful. I do, however think that a deck full of Nighthawks, Gatekeepers, and Dark Confidants might be a good place to try out Smuggler's Copter.

Yes, Scroll has a role in Pox and Ensnaring Bridge decks. But this is The Gate, Cursed Scroll simply doesn't belong here.

A green splash sounds more appealing now that Vengeful Rebel got spoiled incentivizing playing Fetchlands even more. I would go with this...


4 Dark Confidant
4 Gifted Aetherborn
4 Vengeful Rebel
2 Gatekeeper of Malakir
2 Vampire Nighthawk
2 Phyrexian Obliterator

4 Fatal Blow
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Liliana of the Veil
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Umezawa's Jitte

1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Bayou
8 Fetchlands
9 Swamp

I was wrong about Shaman. It's not necessary just because you splash green.

Top + Fetchlands give you Revolt consistently enough to support 4 Vengeful Rebel along with 4 Fatal Blow. Top also combos great with both Confidant and Fetchlands.

[Cpt-Qc]

I made that list really fast, didn't think too much about it. But there are some points I have to disagree on.

I think revolt is a must for push actually. There are plenty of 3-4 drops in legacy (flicker, brimaz, Mentor, KoTr, THC, Shardless, Clique, BBE, Siege Rhino, etc).
Just thinking of it as a disfigure is a recipe for disaster since it replaces Victim of Night. I'm fine if it cannot hit Griselbrand because, let's be honest, once he's out you're done anyway.

I just added green because I put fetches there but I will test a reduced number of fetches and no green too. I think with 4 fetches and 4 wasteland you'd be just fine.

Edit: I've already made changes to my GB list to include some amount of decay MB but I really want enough discard so that the deck isn't cold to fast combo.

[maharis]

Considering this for tonight. Meta is heavy on D&T/Eldrazi, Depths decks, Sneak & Show, and Uxx midrange. Rarely see Lightning Bolt which makes Nighthawk tempting. Chances of Miracles are very low.

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
2 Gatekeeper of Malakir
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Tombstalker

4 Fatal Push
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Dismember
1 Diabolic Edict

3 Smuggler's Copter
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Chrome Mox
1 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Swamp
4 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory
2 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Marsh Flats
2 Bayou
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

3 Abrupt Decay
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Yahenni's Expertise
2 Duress
2 Pithing Needle
1 Krosan Grip

[nedleeds]

Vampgate has been tearing up Atlanta.

https://twitter.com/TeamTuskMTG/status/827627800152698880/photo/1

[EunB]

Vampgate has been tearing up Atlanta.

https://twitter.com/TeamTuskMTG/status/827627800152698880/photo/1

Anyone got a list for that?

[Gheizen64]

Vampgate has been tearing up Atlanta.

https://twitter.com/TeamTuskMTG/status/827627800152698880/photo/1

I guess the BR is for bolt and some more vampires?

Heir of Falkenrath and Asylum Visitor Sinergy?

Vampire nocturnus is also great for just ignore fatties on the ground a lot of the times, but it need a bit of library manipulation methinks. Maybe top+bob?

[mistercakes]

if i had to guess i would just look for the usual suspects of gatekeeper, 4-8 2/3 lifelink deathtouchers, hexmage, and from what it looks like the nocturnus. not sure what other vampires are really strong enough for legacy, but who knows? would love to be surprised.

[maharis]

Made a couple changes before going live:

-1 Cabal Therapy
-2 Gatekeeper of Malakir
-2 Phyrexian Revoker
-1 Tombstalker

+1 Engineered Explosives
+3 Gifted Aetherborn
+1 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet

I remembered Gifted Aetherborn existed and thought it was better than Gatekeeper against decks like Eldrazi. Unfortunately I think the Gatekeeper is a little outclassed right now. Kalitas came in over Tombstalker for Bob reasons -- I forgot I owned one. Played EE main just in case of Chalice.

Rd 1 lost to Goblins in 3, he had to draw exactly Siege-Gang Commander to beat my board and hand and did
Rd 2 drew with Nic Fit, I had enough power to win on turn 5 if he didn't draw a creature, but he did
Rd 3 beat Enchantress, winning a game through an Elephant Grass which I thought was pretty nice

Deck actually seems pretty good. The cards from Kaladesh block add quite a lot. Being able to play 1 cc removal that hits Scavenging Ooze and doesn't make you sac your own DRS was huge. Copter was good at flying over blockers and keeping Bob safe from combat.

On vampires, there are actually quite a lot of good ones. Gifted Aetherborn is surprisingly strong. Gatekeeper and Kalitas are also vampires. Ironically I think most of the best Legacy vampires aren't in the Innistrad blocks.

[maharis]

2-1 last night beating Deadguy Ale and Reid Duke BUG and losing to Shardless. Same list as above.

Deck feels pretty strong. Shardless is tough with all their card draw, but I don't think it's worth worrying about too much because it's not unwinnable and if it ever get super popular I have an excuse to buy Chains.

[Crust]

2-1 last night beating Deadguy Ale and Reid Duke BUG and losing to Shardless. Same list as above.

Deck feels pretty strong. Shardless is tough with all their card draw, but I don't think it's worth worrying about too much because it's not unwinnable and if it ever get super popular I have an excuse to buy Chains.
Hi.
New to this deck but have been playing Eva Green a few years ago. Gonna test the Smuggler version next week, like it alot. Been testing it and it seems strong. But I can't get the feel for the Chrome Moxes. How do you use them? Are they a necessity? And what would you suggest to replace them with if I want to cut them? Is Dark Ritual an alternative?

Skickat från min SM-G920F via Tapatalk

[Curby]

The Gate has become a bit of a casual/pet deck for me, so despite a small green splash for Deathrite and Decay being the usual route, I'd like to keep it mono-black. How crazy is it to add fetchlands and Deathrites just for mana acceleration and reach, and stay mono-black?

Deathrite could power out turn 2 Nighthawks, Gatekeepers, and Lilianas, with a backup plan of turn-2 Dark Confidant and Hymn (and optionally Bitterblossom) if we don't open on Deathrite. I'll try to come up with a sample list.

[tescrin]

The Gate has become a bit of a casual/pet deck for me, so despite a small green splash for Deathrite and Decay being the usual route, I'd like to keep it mono-black. How crazy is it to add fetchlands and Deathrites just for mana acceleration and reach, and stay mono-black?

Deathrite could power out turn 2 Nighthawks, Gatekeepers, and Lilianas, with a backup plan of turn-2 Dark Confidant and Hymn (and optionally Bitterblossom) if we don't open on Deathrite. I'll try to come up with a sample list.

I think if you want to add fetches, you may want to consider Mirri's Guile or Sylvan Library. These both give you the option of sculpting the top of your library with your bob, and you're already splashing Green. Unfortunately at that much green, Goyf starts to seem obvious; but if you resist the urge, I think DRS is good. DRS gets around a lot of lame things opponents try to do by virtue of not-targeting, not attacking, and being life loss. Nothing interacts properly with that combination outside Needle/Revoker; both of which are usually sideboard.

It's hard to pass up confidant, but I know that in Pox I ran Probe + Therapy + Tombstalker. Probe and Fetches and DRS helped to get Tombstalkers out fairly quickly and of course Probe-Therapy is gross. The only issue with the plan is you have to risk DC flipping Stalker.

IME, Lashwrithe was really good when I had a local running Gate a lot. It was not only a threat, but it can insta-equip on Nighthawks or similar, and can send your life-total to ridiculous levels. Additionally, it will probably be +4/+4 by the time you cast it, and paying 4 life to swing for 6+ on T3, gaining 6 as you go, will shut the door on any game very quickly. Equipping for just BB is also very reasonable.

You may consider not going G, and instead going R. Br can run Kolaghan's instead (more reliable for killing equips, inherent CA, can be a threat, can also be a shock to close the game) and if you're mostly running Swamps and a pair of badlands and fetches, you can instead Magus people out of the game for free wins on T2 with your mostly-basic landbase. Either direction seems fine, though I think a R splash will be vastly more powerful with DRS; especially if you move a couple cards to Bolts and use those to close the game with a lock in place.

I find it somewhat funny that people bother with Contamination when something like this is way easier to do and much more reliable.

[Curby]

Tangent: Contamination hits all the basics of Merfolk, D&T, Miracles, etc.

Back to the Gate: thanks for the thoughts and ideas! I really want to try to keep it mono-black for flavor (again, pet deck) for now. Mostly wondering if a 2-ability DRS is good enough to include. I'm going to try it and see. :cool:

[Seraphix]

The Gate has become a bit of a casual/pet deck for me, so despite a small green splash for Deathrite and Decay being the usual route, I'd like to keep it mono-black. How crazy is it to add fetchlands and Deathrites just for mana acceleration and reach, and stay mono-black?

Deathrite could power out turn 2 Nighthawks, Gatekeepers, and Lilianas, with a backup plan of turn-2 Dark Confidant and Hymn (and optionally Bitterblossom) if we don't open on Deathrite. I'll try to come up with a sample list.

A friend of mine has had decent success playing The Gate splash DRS on and off at FNM for the last year or so. Here's his current MD:

4x Deathrite Shaman
3x Gifted Aetherborn
3x Asylum Visitor (-->Dark Confidant)
4x Gatekeeper of Malakir
4x Vampire Nighthawk

4x Fatal Push
4x Thoughtseize
3x Cabal Therpay
3x Hymn to Tourach
3x Bitterblossom
3x Liliana of the Veil

6x Fetchland
11x Swamp
1x Overgrown Tomb (-->Bayou)
4x Wasteland

Despite some "sub-optimal" cards like Asylum Visitor and Overgrown Tomb he's done really well considering that our FNM is quite competitive (4-0 a few weeks ago).

The SB changes up but often includes a transformation into Leyline of the Void + Helm of Obedience (with Dark Rituals to power it out) which really catches people off guard.

[B is for Big Job]

To add in my 2 cents, I've played a build with more of a green splash and a few exceptions due to a spicy meta to some success and some fails but the overall theme of the deck feels pretty strong. I am not sure if this is more of a terrible Eva Green Deck rather than an oddly built The Gate with a green splash

4x bayou
4x verdant catacombs
2x marsh flats
7x swamp
1x forest

4x dark ritual
4x duress
4x fatal push
4x hymn to tourach
3x abrupt decay

3x sylvan library
2x liliana of the veil

4x deathrite shaman
3x gifted aetherborn
2x packrat
1x gatekeeper of malkir
3x vampire nighthawk
4x phyrexian obliterator
2x gray street merchant

sb:
4x lotv
2x helm of obedience
3x toxic deluge
3x inquisition of kozliek
2x pithing needle
1x abrupt decay

[Curby]

Thanks for the ideas, folks. I had something like Seraphix's list in mind. Thinking about this:

8 Fetches
7 Swamp
4 Wasteland
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Gifted Aetherborn
3 Gatekeeper of Malakir
3 Vampire Nighthawk

4 Fatal Push
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Thoughtseize
3 Bitterblossom
2 Umezawa's Jitte

I'd love to fit 2-3 Cabal Therapy but not sure where to find the room. I'm also a fan of Reanimate in The Gate with all our discard and sacrifice effects. Might go there instead of Therapies if I can only find 1-2 slots. Imagine finding your Jitte with their SFM, or smacking them with their own TNN!

[maharis]

Aetherborn is a freakin house. I gotta rebuild my version, though, I really got a lot of mileage out of Top.

Blood Moon actually seems like a good idea. Contamination/Bitterblossom is tempting, but a t2 Moon off DRS + 2 basic swamps seems pretty sick with all the greed running around now.

[Cpt-Qc]

Thanks for the ideas, folks. I had something like Seraphix's list in mind. Thinking about this:

8 Fetches
7 Swamp
4 Wasteland
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Gifted Aetherborn
3 Gatekeeper of Malakir
3 Vampire Nighthawk

4 Fatal Push
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Thoughtseize
3 Bitterblossom
2 Umezawa's Jitte

I'd love to fit 2-3 Cabal Therapy but not sure where to find the room. I'm also a fan of Reanimate in The Gate with all our discard and sacrifice effects. Might go there instead of Therapies if I can only find 1-2 slots. Imagine finding your Jitte with their SFM, or smacking them with their own TNN!


IMO you should drop liliana completely. She just isn't good in this deck and also she's a 3 drop which hurts on bob.

I really like the idea of a few reanimate, especially to get a jitte off their SFM, that's genius! Unfortunately I don't think I can spare enough slots for that strat to be worth it :S

The list I'm goldfishing with atm goes something like this:

10 swamp
4 wasteland
1 urborg
2 Bayou
4 fetches

4 gifted aetherborn
4 dark confidant
2 abyssal persecutor
3 gatekeeper of malakir
4 deathrite

4 hymn
3 Therapy
3 thoughtseize
4 Fatal Push
2 Innocent Blood // Geth's Verdict

2 Jitte
2 smuggler's copter

2 bitterblossom

Side:

3 Leylines
3 Surgical
3 Decays
2 marsh casualties
1 Golgari Charm
1 Sylvan Library
2 Needle

[Curby]

Thanks for the thoughts! With respect to Lili I'm not at all worried about life loss due to Bob (famous last words) because I'm running 7 lifelinkers and two Jittes. The deck worked fine in the past with Abyssal Persecutors, so I'm not too concerned with Liliana. That said, I'm dropping down to 3 for now, and might even go down to 2 depending on testing.

I'm more curious why you think she's not good for the deck. She seems to fit perfectly: pitch extra cards from Bob to her, or have her augment our removal (now that we're getting rid of Innocent Blood and going down a Gatekeeper).

[Cpt-Qc]

She's just win-more in this deck. She works really well when you're ahead but that's about it.

I mean 2 is fine, but I don't want the deck to be a Pox-like deck (control). We need creatures to trigger equip Jitte and apply pressure.

Just to make it clearer, I don't hate lili but copter can give use to late game discard while also filtering through the deck and apply good pressure.

[zebotc]

A long time ago, when I first started playing Legacy, I remember always wanting to play The Gate. But sadly it kinda stopped being developed, so I moved on to different decks. Fast forward to now, and I'm interested in trying it out again, but it doesn't seem like there are that many accepted lists going around. So I decided to do some testing and research on my own. Here are the results:

The decklist I tested with:
Maindeck
Artifact
2 Umezawa's Jitte
Creature
2 Abyssal Persecutor
3 Viscera Seer
3 Dark Confidant
2 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Gifted Aetherborn
3 Mardu Strike Leader
Enchantment
3 Bitterblossom
Instant
2 Victim of Night
3 Fatal Push
1 Tragic Slip
Land
3 Ancient Tomb
3 Swamp
2 Bojuka Bog
2 Karakas
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Wasteland
2 Marsh Flats
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Polluted Delta
Planeswalker
2 Liliana of the Veil
Sorcery
4 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy
Sideboard
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Chalice of the Void
SB: 3 Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 3 Leyline of the Void
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Toxic Deluge

I decided not to play any splashes because I felt that they were unnecessary. In hindsight, Abrupt Decay may have helped, but I feel that the Ancient Tombs and Urborgs made up for the lack of Deathrite Shamans. The list is just a basic monoblack tempoish list adapted from old and new lists. Most of the card choices are fairly standard, with the addition of Viscera Seer.

Overall, the results were kinda disappointing. The best descriptor being underwhelming. It felt like every play I made was an uphill climb. The deck (at least this list) just doesn't do enough powerful stuff in my experience to keep up with the broken nature of Legacy. Whether you're staring down the grizzly face of a True-Name Nemesis, or trying to fight off an opponent's Griselbrand, there just isn't enough the deck can do to really keep up. It's disappointing because it'd be so cool to make this deck work on a larger scale. But I honestly don't know if there is a way to currently make a mono black tempo deck work well in this format.

That being said.....

Have any of you checked out Hareruya's website? I found something really interesting in their tournament archives. There are some people playing a substantially different version of this deck, and they seem like they are doing pretty well. They call it Demon Stompy, and it seems to do what The Gate wants to do, while also keeping up with Legacy in general.

I think their lists are worth exploring if anyone wants to check out some new stuff. Here are some links:
http://www.hareruyamtg.com/en/k/kD01578T/
http://www.hareruyamtg.com/en/k/kD04829W/
http://www.hareruyamtg.com/en/k/kD06156S/
http://www.hareruyamtg.com/en/k/kD06074K/
http://www.hareruyamtg.com/en/k/kD01539T/
http://www.hareruyamtg.com/en/k/kD01578T/

The lists are mostly doing well at small events, but there are a couple larger events where people seem to be winning with it. I've no idea if this is the right direction to be going with this deck, but it seems like an option. It'd be cool to create a fully developed version of this deck at some point.


I think that right now the main issue that needs to be solved is the over-fairness of this deck. So what can we do to make this deck more unfair, to keep up with the rest of the format?

[Sleepy_Eyes]

Mardu Strike Leaders. I can support this...!

What are our options? Not particular cards perse but what sort of effects/synergies would be beneficial?

Dark Rituals/Lotus Petals to crank out something T1-2?
Maybe a delve dude or two just to eat up our own GY, I dunno.
Not too sure. Any sweet enchants we can abuse to weird effect?
I am always a fan of land destruction (sink hole, etc) but unless we can play it fo' free, we aint busted enough lolz

[Spud]

Thanks for the ideas, folks. I had something like Seraphix's list in mind. Thinking about this:

8 Fetches
7 Swamp
4 Wasteland
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Gifted Aetherborn
3 Gatekeeper of Malakir
3 Vampire Nighthawk

4 Fatal Push
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Thoughtseize
3 Bitterblossom
2 Umezawa's Jitte

I'd love to fit 2-3 Cabal Therapy but not sure where to find the room. I'm also a fan of Reanimate in The Gate with all our discard and sacrifice effects. Might go there instead of Therapies if I can only find 1-2 slots. Imagine finding your Jitte with their SFM, or smacking them with their own TNN!

I think with this list in particular, you'd be much better with Unearth instead of Reanimate. No life loss, hits all of your creatures, and you can dig for action.

[tescrin]

I think the reason you never see unearth is that it has to hit your own graveyard. I could see it in Delver (where you could use something that is a "Sorcery" but is basically a creature), but in fair decks Reanimate will be "live" more often. While Unearth can always be live in the sense you can cycle it, Reanimate targets opposing graveyards as well. A possible opening for this deck then on the play is to Push their 1-drop on their turn or Sieze them; then Reanimate it on your turn so you have a threat. Reanimate also allows you to abuse the expensive cards that this deck specifically eschews. The advantage is that you're always (in theory) on an even footing with your opponent since their biggest/best dude is always available for you to play as well.


On Lily:
While she's waned in the last couple years with the rise of token prominence and much more CA oriented decks being able to counter her natural CA; in the end she's one of the best options this deck has for CA and removal. Being in Non blue (my forte for several years) you want a density of interaction against combo, and you need every bit of it. That she counts as both is pretty slick.

Collective Brutality:
Have you guys been looking at this as a possible Lily replacement instead then? (or w/e) It's great with Therapy (ditch Therapy, hit with Brutality, then hit with Therapy) and is quite versatile; between the life gain being relevant, pushing your clock, killing a dude, or just pitching a land to get psuedo-CA. It's also color light and live in virtually any MU.

[Cpt-Qc]

Yeah, I tried cutting Lily but it never actually worked. I wanted to play two Persys but it feels just so bad to lose your creature to a 1 mana removal everytime...
I put her back in the list now so I'm testing this pile:

4 BoB
4 DRS
3 Gatekeeper
4 Aetherborn

2 BB
1 Library
2 Copter
2 Jitte
2 lotv

4 Push
2 Go for the Throat
3 therapy
3 hymns
3 thoughtseize

2 Bayou
1 Cabal Pit
3 Wasteland
1 Urborg
6 Fetches
8 Swamp

SB: 3 Abrupt Decay
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Sorcerous Spyglass
SB: 2 Engineered Plague
SB: 2 Diabolic Edict
SB: 2 Lost Legacy
SB: 1 Golgari Charm

[Curby]

@zebotc thanks for the hareruya links! That seems like a much different deck but I still dig it.

[maharis]

Did anyone ever try the Blood Moon idea? How about if we do it and also sinkhole their basics?

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Gifted Aetherborn
1 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet

4 Fatal Push
4 Thoughtseize
3 Sinkhole
3 Blood Moon
2 Bitterblossom
2 Kolaghan's Command
2 Liliana of the Veil

2 Smuggler's Copter
2 Chrome Mox
2 Umezawa's Jitte

6 Swamp
4 Wasteland
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Badlands
3 Marsh Flats
1 Bayou

3 Surgical Extraction
2 Pyroblast
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Yahenni's Expertise
2 Duress
2 Pithing Needle
1 Krosan Grip
1 Liliana, the Last Hope

[Sleepy_Eyes]

@maharis: looks pretty fun, think I'll give it a shot as well

[Cpt-Qc]

I must admit adding R is tempting if only for Kcommand. It works so well with Gatekeeper (kinda like it does with snapcaster) and gives us artifact removal.

Although I will probably never understand why some people like Kalitas.. it's so mediocre I'd much rather play Persy or Obliterator.

[Cpt-Qc]

I just went 3-1 on The GATE at my weekly.

Round 1: WIN vs MUD - didn't have much resistance. Nothing much to say, wasteland + removal get rid of the very few threats I see.
Round 2: LOSE vs Steel Stompy - it was pretty close but I ended up not being able to cast spells for a while in the third game since I was being taxed twice (actually had lots of answers in my hand).
Round 3: WIN vs Deadguy Ale - He mulligan and I discard what's left, no real threat here. Copter was a beast to keep applying pressure while looting dead discard later on.
Round 4: WIN vs Steel Stompy - Games 1/2 were massacres on each side. Game 3 was closer but I made a critical misplay that almost lost me the game (Hangarback makes FLYERS). Had the board pretty well locked when I lost my 6 loyalty liliana last hope in a single hit from a 6/6 copter. I really should have killed it instead of the ravager earlier since I had Aetherborn in play. I still managed to pull out of it by finding more removal right before it was too late.

Here is the list:

4x Dark Confidant
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Gatekeeper of Malakir
3x Gifted Aetherborn
4x Hymn to Tourach
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
3x Thoughtseize
4x Fatal Push
2x Liliana of the Veil
3x Smuggler's Copter
2x Umezawa's Jitte
2x Bitterblossom
1x Sylvan Library
2x Bayou
2x Bloodstained Mire
2x Polluted Delta
8x Swamp
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2x Verdant Catacombs
4x Wasteland

3x Abrupt Decay
2x Diabolic Edict
2x Golgari Charm
1x Grafdigger's Cage
2x Liliana, the Last Hope
2x Pithing Needle
3x Surgical Extraction

[kinda]

Nice, I would consider another library.

[ntropy]

I must admit adding R is tempting if only for Kcommand. It works so well with Gatekeeper (kinda like it does with snapcaster) and gives us artifact removal.
.

I'm currently on the red splash in Pox(not the Gate, I know) - Young Pyromancer plays really well with Smallpox and Innocent Blood, and K-Command is AMAZING. I understand why BUG decks splash for it. Also, Magus of the Moon holds a Jitte really well, and Abrade, Dreadbore are great removal upgrades. I think the red splash in this deck could work really well. I'm blurring the lines on my Pox build - moving away from some of the traditional Pox tropes and try out things like card advantage, efficient removal and win conditions, so I'm checking out some lists in here.

[Mr. Safety]

i'm currently on the red splash in pox(not the gate, i know) - young pyromancer plays really well with smallpox and innocent blood, and k-command is amazing. I understand why bug decks splash for it. Also, magus of the moon holds a jitte really well, and abrade, dreadbore are great removal upgrades. I think the red splash in this deck could work really well. I'm blurring the lines on my pox build - moving away from some of the traditional pox tropes and try out things like card advantage, efficient removal and win conditions, so i'm checking out some lists in here.

Blood moon!

[ntropy]

Blood moon!

I prefer Magus, since it beats down too, but yes. Blood Moon indeed.

[Cpt-Qc]

I'm thinking of trying Kitesail Freebooter in the list as it's a good way to connect with jitte and also acts as temporary duress. Anyone has experience with the card?

It would probably conflict with the copter spots (evasive creature) but it could be better in a more combo oriented meta. I just like looting so much in longer games that I haven't given it enough thought.

[Lord Darkview]

Is anyone still playing a mono-black build of this deck? I'm curious how it performs these days, and what it looks like.

[Cpt-Qc]

You really need a good reason not to splash 1 color at the very least in legacy since a 2 color deck can easily live on basics alone like miracles shows us. You only need 2-4 duals and you have your splash (you don't even need basics other than swamps).

Black is a little like blue in that it doesn't answer permanents very well once they hit the board. Green adds many catch-all options so it's the most polyvalent splash.

[Lord Darkview]

You really need a good reason not to splash 1 color at the very least in legacy since a 2 color deck can easily live on basics alone like miracles shows us. You only need 2-4 duals and you have your splash (you don't even need basics other than swamps).

Black is a little like blue in that it doesn't answer permanents very well once they hit the board. Green adds many catch-all options so it's the most polyvalent splash.

While I'm grateful for the reply, it doesn't really answer my questions. I'm interested in (a) if anyone still plays mono-black, and (b) what a mono-black version might look like.

Moreover, while I appreciate the relative ease of splashing in Legacy and the advantages of doing so, I'm not convinced it is as trivial as you say.

We have a deck that frequently wants :b::b: on turn 2 (Duress+Therapy, Hymn, Aetherborn, etc.), and definitely by turn 3 (Nighthawk). A thorough analysis of the required colored sources to cast spells (https://www.channelfireball.com/articles/frank-analysis-how-many-colored-mana-sources-do-you-need-to-consistently-cast-your-spells/) indicates that we should have in the ballpark of 20 :b: sources. Wastelands weigh heavily, Forests more heavily still, and relying on Bayou and Urborg opens us to really bad Wasteland exposure.

Other mono-chromatic decks exist in the format: Pox, Death and Taxes, Burn, and Merfolk. Each of these prioritizes their color sources for the same reason (Pox wants :b::b: turn 2 for many similar spells, Burn wants straight :r: for all its Bolts), or copes in some way for their absence (Aether Vial for DnT's :w::w: creatures). These are the decks The Gate resembles: running powerful cards deep in a single color.

In contrast, blue decks cheat. Most run a score of cantrips, and can get by on just a single :u: source anyway. Miracles has plenty of time and digging power to find :u::u:. In contrast, we don't dig nearly as well (only Confidant) and don't have the luxury of waiting, so we really shouldn't be treating all decks as if they can handle splashing like blue decks.

I suppose DRS compensates to some extent, but I'm not convinced it really is better than just not having to deal with the complications at all. There aren't many permanents that I feel mono-black can't work around to some degree (well, maybe Light of Day).

[Erdvermampfa]

I'm also opposed to the idea of a heavy commitment to a second color because just like you said the color requirements of mono black are quite demanding and after all this is sort of a midrange deck which means a single land loss can set you back quite a bit if your plan is to play cards like Nighthawk or Obliterator. One has to acknowledge though that green offers possibilites to handle cards that otherwise hose mono black like the one you mentioned but also Karma and Compost. I do in fact play a mono black deck in the current format and one insight I had is that sacrifice effects are currently not as good as they used to be if only because of the prevalence of Young Pyromancer. The current iteration of Delver also features a creature selection that is quite diverse which makes it hard to deal with so you have to be careful when choosing your removal.


While I'm grateful for the reply, it doesn't really answer my questions. I'm interested in (a) if anyone still plays mono-black, and (b) what a mono-black version might look like.

Moreover, while I appreciate the relative ease of splashing in Legacy and the advantages of doing so, I'm not convinced it is as trivial as you say.

We have a deck that frequently wants :b::b: on turn 2 (Duress+Therapy, Hymn, Aetherborn, etc.), and definitely by turn 3 (Nighthawk). A thorough analysis of the required colored sources to cast spells (https://www.channelfireball.com/articles/frank-analysis-how-many-colored-mana-sources-do-you-need-to-consistently-cast-your-spells/) indicates that we should have in the ballpark of 20 :b: sources. Wastelands weigh heavily, Forests more heavily still, and relying on Bayou and Urborg opens us to really bad Wasteland exposure.

Other mono-chromatic decks exist in the format: Pox, Death and Taxes, Burn, and Merfolk. Each of these prioritizes their color sources for the same reason (Pox wants :b::b: turn 2 for many similar spells, Burn wants straight :r: for all its Bolts), or copes in some way for their absence (Aether Vial for DnT's :w::w: creatures). These are the decks The Gate resembles: running powerful cards deep in a single color.

In contrast, blue decks cheat. Most run a score of cantrips, and can get by on just a single :u: source anyway. Miracles has plenty of time and digging power to find :u::u:. In contrast, we don't dig nearly as well (only Confidant) and don't have the luxury of waiting, so we really shouldn't be treating all decks as if they can handle splashing like blue decks.

I suppose DRS compensates to some extent, but I'm not convinced it really is better than just not having to deal with the complications at all. There aren't many permanents that I feel mono-black can't work around to some degree (well, maybe Light of Day).

[Cpt-Qc]

I agree completely, which is why I have only a mild splash (2 bayous + 4 drs which would be there even if I didn't have green because it's way too good to pass). I rarely ever find myself needing more black mana.

[Curby]

Mono-black Gate from Medea: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/245603029

I rather like the durdly Bitterblossom build, but sometimes you just have to smash them.

[Cpt-Qc]

Nice to see people trying but his list is pretty bad :laugh: It's like it's stuck in the past: the current meta would eat it alive in no time.

[kramer733]

Nice to see people trying but his list is pretty bad :laugh: It's like it's stuck in the past: the current meta would eat it alive in no time.

Wtf he 4-1d and you’re giving him grief for using an old list ? You wanted results and you got it . Now you make fun of him for giving you good results ? Where’s your 4-1?

[Curby]

Regardless of results I don't see where the stuck in the past thing comes from. This is the first list I've seen that uses:


Obliterator over Percy
Lashwrithe over Jitte
Arena over Bitterblossom as your CA enchantment
Hippie over Therapy as additional CA-generating discard
just one sac effect in the 75 (in LiliVeil).


If you've been brewing with these changes I wish you had posted a list!

EDIT: I know some lists in the past have used Obliterators, or a couple Arenas, etc. Nothing recent has used these changes together. Effective deckbuilding doesn't mean you never use old printings. It means evaluating cards to see if they're useful for a particular expected metagame, and I think he's done that. It's not a perfect deck, and it loses to itself or to land-based strategies. But it's not nearly as outdated as a typical Bitterblossom, Percy, Jitte, Gatekeeper, Therapy list.

[Cpt-Qc]

@Kramer I'm gonna bite even if that was a blatant fallacy

First off, chill out man. I'm not griefing anyone, just saying he was lucky and that any deck can do well given good draws and matchups. I thought it was pretty obvious I was wishing him well when I said I liked seeing him trying to put the deck forward.


Regardless of results I don't see where the stuck in the past thing comes from.

Most of these cards are old strategies that were thoroughly tested and yes I tried them: no they don't work.

Obliterator over Percy > Obliterator is one of the oldest tech mono black has ever had but neither are good when they can both die to the two most common 1 mana removal.
Lashwrithe over Jitte > This is not even remotely comparable. Jitte is removal/Card advantage. This is just a big dumb beater. This is very good synergy with the rest of his deck since he has a lot of lifelinkers and can buy time (even if I think Nightwalk is unplayable now being 3 mana for a creature that dies to bolt). I just don't see how it helps winning when ahead or taking back board control when behind so no real purpose.
Arena over Bitterblossom as your CA enchantment > Once again, an old staple of mono black, Arena is a very good card but it requires playing dark rituals, which I found to be quite bad when you're trying to get Card advantage since you'll often get dazed, pierced or forced and now you're down 2 cards instead of up. It really kills your game when it happens. It's a gamble I'm not willing to take anymore.
Hippie over Therapy as additional CA-generating discard > Another mono black card that used to be played 8 years ago. There are no way this is legacy playable anymore since it's way too slow and will probably never connect.
just one sac effect in the 75 (in LiliVeil) > I don't see how this could be considered good given the prevalence of Marit Lage and TNN... Meta dependant I guess.

Revisiting old cards is fine but the problem with these cards is not about their power level: It's just that they are too slow for today's metagame. Legacy has gotten increasingly fast over the years, so fast Tarmogoyf is barely played anymore. Unless the format slows down considerably, most 3+ drops of the past are never going be relevant again.

[Erdvermampfa]

The format doesn't entirely consist of "fast" decks though, there are grindy matchups where CA and tools for attrition highly matter, e.g. Miracles, Jund or Pile. If you continously try to make the deck "faster" by lowering the curve we will effectively weaken the deck at a certain point because the balance between efficiency and late game power becomes skewed. That's the biggest issue in my opinion, i.e. adressing each archetype (combo, control, aggro) at the same time

[Curby]

@Kramer I'm gonna bite even if that was a blatant fallacy

First off, chill out man. I'm not griefing anyone, just saying he was lucky and that any deck can do well given good draws and matchups. I thought it was pretty obvious I was wishing him well when I said I liked seeing him trying to put the deck forward.


I'd say there was a fair amount of luck involved, given that he also went 1-4 on the same stream.


Most of these cards are old strategies that were thoroughly tested and yes I tried them: no they don't work.

What kind of shell were they tried in? As you note, Nighthawk isn't too scary by itself, but Nighthawk with a suddenly-equipped Lashwrithe can be a 16-point lifeswing, which (1) isn't out of the question in the lategame, (2) isn't that unreliable with tons of discard to clear the way and (3) can even outrace a batterskull-equipped TNN. Cards don't exist in a vacuum but rather need to work in the context of a deck, which brings me to...


Revisiting old cards is fine but the problem with these cards is not about their power level: It's just that they are too slow for today's metagame. Legacy has gotten increasingly fast over the years, so fast Tarmogoyf is barely played anymore. Unless the format slows down considerably, most 3+ drops of the past are never going be relevant again.

Yeah, but what shell? Phil took expensive cards, ran mana acceleration to cheat them out, and used extra card draw to recover from that inherent card disadvantage. If you consider Red Prison, it runs even more 3+ cost cards, but builds around them. Perhaps a different plan would be useful here, e.g. Chrome Mox instead of, or in addition to, Dark Rit.

Regardless, I agree the list he played had some holes. I'd like to see more attention paid to land-based strategies. I think Smuggler's Copter could do well to lower the curve, add some much needed card-selection, and still maintain evasion.

Ultimately, it's nice that someone is trying different things, as I don't think "conventional wisdom" Gate builds have done anything noteworthy either.

[Cpt-Qc]

The problem is our big 3 drops don't impact the board right away. Blood moon is well worth the risk of getting blown out because once it hits the board, the decks you keep it against are dead. It's a pseudo-t1kill.
Having Arena out on T1 is very good, but it'll take 3-5 turns before you get any kind of advantage and it could get answered.

I agree thinking outside the box is good which is why I don't hate Lashwrite, I'm just not too keen on nighthawk after getting blown out so many times with it.

[naynay666]

3x Bloodghast
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Gatekeeper of Malakir
4x Gifted Aetherborn
2x Tombstalker
4x Vampire Nighthawk

4x Fatal Push
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Hymn to Tourach
2x Thoughtseize

2x Lashwrithe
3x Sylvan Library

2x Badlands
2x Bayou
8x Fetch
8x Swamp

Side
2x Abrupt Decay
2x Faerie Macabre
4x Price of Progress
3x Reanimate
2x Smuggler's Copter
2x Surgical Extraction

Longtime lurker, 1st time poster. Avid Pox player but it’s always fun to sleeve something else. Even though this deck accomplishes different things, I still want to lead with Swamps into Thoughtseize into Hymn. Hopefully that happens at least once before the inevitable Fetch into DRS. I played a mono black list with Percy a long time ago, but moved on to other decks.

Currently Bobless and won’t be acquiring him again until another Masters reprint or so. Enter Sylvan Library. If I’m going to be jamming Bayou for Deathrite I can’t not play it. I am interested in hearing if Phyrexian Arena is better, but not if I have to jam Dark Ritual. While it’s my favorite card ever, Dark Ritual is card disadvantage.

I can find 2 copies of Jitte to borrow, but Lashwrithe is a personal favorite. The lifeloss from Library and Lash is hopefully made up by 8 Lifelinkers in Nighthawk and Nightwalk.

Tombstalker is there because all the other creatures very much die to Fatal Push and Bolt. Are there better options? Fishbowling he still isn't the easiest to cast with a bajillion permanents, Cabal exiling and DRS eating. Phyrexian Obliterator seems like a lot of fun but still dies to Push.

I have Liliana of the Veil. Is she necessary?

Blind do we turn 1 DRS or discard? Dependent on the rest of your hand but I was curious if there was a consensus.

Price of Progress steals 8-12 damage. Seems like a solid backup plan against Eldrazi or Lands.

[Mr. Safety]

I would be jamming at least 3 tombstalker myself. I also think if you want to splash red it would be good to play PoP maindeck. You're definitely an aggro deck.

Blind i would say Drs t1 almost 95% of the time. If you know your matchup, or have a good idea, and you could lose t1, then therapy. But most decks aren't t1 decks. Drs makes you have more explosive t2's.

[Cpt-Qc]

With the banning of DRS, the whole format is in disarray. Some decks might never come back from these latest changes but it also means it's time for new decks to pop up... or should I say, old ones?

Now that JUND is in a not-so-great shape, I think it's time we introduce people to the new "mono black" jund! I think the Gate has the potential for to become the go-to value deck of the format while remaining competitive. Here's the list I've been working on since the banning. I am yet to actually test it but it looks like it's in a good spot right now.

Artifacts(2)
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Creatures(14)
1 Abyssal Persecutor
4 Dark Confidant
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
3 Gifted Aetherborn
2 Vampire Nighthawk

Enchantments(3)
2 Bitterblossom
1 Sylvan Library

Instants(8)
4 Dark Ritual
4 Fatal Push

Planeswalkers(2)
2 Liliana of the Veil

Sorceries(10)
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize

Lands(21)
2 Badlands
2 Bayou
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Polluted Delta
7 Swamp
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

Sideboard
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Golgari Charm
2 Kolaghan's Command
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Slaughter Games

[Erdvermampfa]

I can already tell you from a first glance that Dark Ritual will be bad in your list. You don't have any reliable way to recover from it (Confidant doesn't count) and also no way to avoid drawing it mid to lategame. There's hardly worthile stuff you can ramp into with it as well.

[Cpt-Qc]

I can already tell you from a first glance that Dark Ritual will be bad in your list. You don't have any reliable way to recover from it (Confidant doesn't count) and also no way to avoid drawing it mid to lategame. There's hardly worthile stuff you can ramp into with it as well.

Wait.. so T1 liliana isn't good enough for you? what about T1 discard+bob/blossom/hymn. Then maybe T2 slaughter games? It's certainly better than anything traditional Jund can do anyway.

Might be worth it to test with some chalice/magus of the moon in the board as well.

[Michael Keller]

Wait.. so T1 liliana isn't good enough for you? what about T1 discard+bob/blossom/hymn. Then maybe T2 slaughter games? It's certainly better than anything traditional Jund can do anyway.

Might be worth it to test with some chalice/magus of the moon in the board as well.

Dark Ritual never belonged in The Gate, and still shouldn't be there. It's a deck that incrementally gains advantages over multiple turns. Since Deathrite is gone, as is Probe, going the old route of removal/discard, discard, threat, threat is ideal and true to its roots.

[Captain Hammer]

The format is too fast not to play Dark Ritual.

Show and Tell and Storm are about to make a huge comeback. First turn Ritual into Thoughtseize and Hymn is the best chance this deck has of fighting this.

I wish they printed a half decent Devotion card. Grey Merchant is just one mana too much to serve as a reliable finisher.

[Michael Keller]

If you have a turn-one Thoughtseize and turn-two Hymn, why are you going three-for-three turn one and gaining no true advantage, when you can go two-for-three and gain an advantage on the second turn after hitting a key spell turn one?

Dark Ritual is a card that belongs in decks that want to get ahead fast. The Gate isn't a deck that does that. Decks like Show and Tell have a terrible match-up intrinsically against targeted discard, so using your second turn after hitting them the first turn with a discard spell to gain actual card advantage is just better because it doesn't require you to waste several slots.

And Liliana into ultimate isn't going to be as great situationally as it could be, as Stifle is poised to make a huge comeback. Bringing the deck back to its roots in my mind is the best way for it to represent itself to the format: incremental, pinpointed discard followed by discard or a threat on turn two or three.

[Michael Keller]

This is what I would play right now in the format:

//Main
[4] Dark Confidant
[4] Faerie Macabre
[4] Bitterblossom
[4] Gatekeeper of Malakir
[4] Vampire Nighthawk

[4] Duress
[4] Hymn to Tourach

[4] Fatal Push
[4] Innocent Blood
[2] Diabolic Edict

[2] Umezawa's Jitte

[15] Swamp
[4] Wasteland
[1] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

//Sideboard
[3] Surgical Extraction
[3] Gate to Phyrexia
[3] Pithing Needle
[2] Ratchet Bomb
[2] Dread of Night
[2] Engineered Plague

[Captain Hammer]

Gifted Aetherborne is superior to Nighthawk.

The deck needs to play at least 17 black mana sources.

Also the deck would ideally play a finisher as a two of, or replace Innocent Blood with a 2/2 split of Thoughtseize and Cabal Therapy.

Otherwise the build looks solid.

After those changes, this is what I would play right now.

[4] Dark Confidant
[4] Faerie Macabre
[4] Gatekeeper of Malakir
[4] Gifted Atherborn
[2] Kitesail Freebooter
[2] Phyrexian Revoker
[2] Liliana of the Void
[1] Liliana Last Hope

[4] Hymn to Tourach
[4] Fatal Push
[2] Inquisition of Kozilek
[2] Thoughtseize
[2] Cabal Therapy
[2] Umezawa's Jitte

[16] Swamp
[4] Wasteland
[1] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

[Erdvermampfa]

Innocent Blood doesn't make any sense in this list though as he plays a lot of creatures that don't want to be sacced and there's no Persecutor as well.

[Michael Keller]

For that trade-off, Innocent Blood kills larger threats out of Reanimator and Sneak and Show and kills Nimble Mongoose, Marit Lage and True-Name Nemesis - cards this deck would otherwise have trouble with unless you get to three mana for Gatekeeper or a few Edicts (if you run them). The deck runs Bitterblossom, so you can always sacrifice one of your tokens. It also helps off Bob if you're going to die.

It's not like every time Innocent Blood was ever cast that you absolutely had to have Abyssal Persecutor to make it worthwhile. Persecutor's interaction with Therapy is what made him so good - not the inclusion of Innocent Blood. Also, the math to support needing seventeen black sources was more of an issue with multiple Persecutors in the deck. You can get away with fifteen or sixteen without him in your list.

Gate to Phyrexia pulls serious weight out of the board, as well. Being able to off Chalices and other troublesome artifacts with a Bitterblossom on board is just cruel.

[KobeBryan]

For that trade-off, Innocent Blood kills larger threats out of Reanimator and Sneak and Show and kills Nimble Mongoose, Marit Lage and True-Name Nemesis - cards this deck would otherwise have trouble with unless you get to three mana for Gatekeeper or a few Edicts (if you run them). The deck runs Bitterblossom, so you can always sacrifice one of your tokens. It also helps off Bob if you're going to die.

It's not like every time Innocent Blood was ever cast that you absolutely had to have Abyssal Persecutor to make it worthwhile. Also, the math to support needing seventeen black sources was more of an issue with multiple Persecutors in the deck. You can get away with fifteen or sixteen without him in your list.

Gate to Phyrexia pulls serious weight out of the board, as well. Being able to off Chalices and other troublesome artifacts with a Bitterblossom on board is just cruel.

Hi Mike.

The only problem with innocent blood is it is sorcery speed. People with sneak show and reanimator would be able to get off the combo and kill you before your turn.

Aside from the gate, did you ever make changes to that deck Bargain welder. I really like that deck, and with DRS gone, it may be viable.

[Michael Keller]

That's not always the case, though. Black-Red Reanimator doesn't have counterspells to back up their threats, so that actually makes your removal off the top much better. Sure, with Sneak Attack you'd need to Edict them, but that's why you run Needles in the board and force them to go in on Show and Tell. Innocent Blood in that regard can be better, because then you don't have to use two mana for one spell when you can force them to discard protection first and then pave the way for Innocent Blood. (Yeah, they can pay seven life in response, but really - it's your best shot against faster tempo decks and turn-one Lackeys/Mother of Runes.)

(Nope, haven't looked at that in a while. I think graveyard decks may get a wake-up call, because people aren't stupid and will be packing hate to quell those decks in the early shifting of the format now that DRS is gone.)

[Cpt-Qc]

If you let reanimator get griselbrand out of the the yard, game's over. It doesn't matter if you have removal, there will be 2-3 more creatures to kill pretty soon. That's why I like dark rit to power through the early game.

Faerie is pretty good to stop that... but in any fair game it's near unplayable. I don't understand why you'd want to play 4 of it in the mainboard. It also makes bob hurt more for absolutely no reason.

[Cpt-Qc]

Some people might be interested to try this new card:

http://static.starcitygames.com/sales/cardscans/MTG/BBD/en/nonfoil/VirtussManeuver.jpg

It's like a weaker Kcommand for people who don't want to run red but it can also sac Persy if needed.

[Evilpurplemonkey]

Headed to a big tournament this weekend, this is the list I'm taking:

4 Dark Confidant
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Kitesail Freebooter

2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Ashiok, Dream Render

4 Fatal Push
2 Liliana's Triumph
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize

3 Bitterblossom

2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Lashwrithe

9 Swamp
2 Bayou
2 Urborg
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold

Side:
1 Dread of Night
1 Choke
3 Assassin's Trophy
3 Leyline of the Void
2 Liliana's Triumph
2 Marsh Casualties
2 Pithing Needle
1 Toxic Deluge

Will let you know how it goes

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[Michael Keller]

Headed to a big tournament this weekend, this is the list I'm taking:

4 Dark Confidant
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Kitesail Freebooter

2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Ashiok, Dream Render

4 Fatal Push
2 Liliana's Triumph
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize

3 Bitterblossom

2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Lashwrithe

9 Swamp
2 Bayou
2 Urborg
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold

Side:
1 Dread of Night
1 Choke
3 Assassin's Trophy
3 Leyline of the Void
2 Liliana's Triumph
2 Marsh Casualties
2 Pithing Needle
1 Toxic Deluge

Will let you know how it goes

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Thoughts:

1. I would cut the Kitesails and replace them with Gifted Aetherborn. Jitte is still in the deck for some life gain, but between four Dark Confidant, four Thoughtseize, three Bitterblossom and one Deluge you are really gambling with your life total. Four Hymns and two Lilianas are more than enough to tag an opponent's hand, and you certainly don't want to flood on discard spells when you need action. If you value Thoughtseize that much, I'd absolutely play Aetherborn.

2. Aetherborn trades with Delver, which is important. It also kills potent threats on defense.

3. I would cut the Stronghold and play a third Bayou. If you get cut off your only two green sources that can be a big problem if you bring it hate spells. Smart opponents will see this and attack your resources. Stronghold gives you some late-game redundancy, but I still would value the third Bayou over the Stronghold. It may also matter marginally, but Stronghold is a fifth colorless resource in the deck, which may cause problems with opening hands and casting triple black for Gatekeeper. I get Urborg is there, but you can't always depend on that.

4. Be careful on how you play Urborg. Turbo Depths is a very real deck right now and playing it can open the door to fast, unexpected plays from an opponent.

[Evilpurplemonkey]

Thoughts:

1. I would cut the Kitesails and replace them with Gifted Aetherborn. Jitte is still in the deck for some life gain, but between four Dark Confidant, four Thoughtseize, three Bitterblossom and one Deluge you are really gambling with your life total. Four Hymns and two Lilianas are more than enough to tag an opponent's hand, and you certainly don't want to flood on discard spells when you need action. If you value Thoughtseize that much, I'd absolutely play Aetherborn.

2. Aetherborn trades with Delver, which is important. It also kills potent threats on defense.

3. I would cut the Stronghold and play a third Bayou. If you get cut off your only two green sources that can be a big problem if you bring it hate spells. Smart opponents will see this and attack your resources. Stronghold gives you some late-game redundancy, but I still would value the third Bayou over the Stronghold. It may also matter marginally, but Stronghold is a fifth colorless resource in the deck, which may cause problems with opening hands and casting triple black for Gatekeeper. I get Urborg is there, but you can't always depend on that.

4. Be careful on how you play Urborg. Turbo Depths is a very real deck right now and playing it can open the door to fast, unexpected plays from an opponent.The aetherborns we're actually the most recent cut, dropping 4 of them for an extra copy of several other cards. In testing the past couple weeks the life gain was incidental, especially since if you actually need the aetherborn it has to sit as a blocker often times. The other big thing is the aetherborn doesn't block many relevant creatures right now. Any of these creatures except bob trades with an unflipped delver in my favor and aetherborn doesn't block a flipped delver anyway. It really shines in the eldrazi matchup or against a tarmogoyf deck, but I'm not expecting a huge number of either of those right now, although new Ugin might bring eldrazi back in a big way.

The extra bayou is worth considering, I like the Stronghold though, just because this build functions a lot more like a death and taxes style creature control deck rather than an aggro deck, so late game redundancy is more important than curving out.

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[Michael Keller]

The aetherborns we're actually the most recent cut, dropping 4 of them for an extra copy of several other cards. In testing the past couple weeks the life gain was incidental, especially since if you actually need the aetherborn it has to sit as a blocker often times.

I'm not sure why; in a larger sample of games, the amount of life lost will eventually catch up to you. The extra life is absolutely important against decks like UR Delver, Burn, aggro decks and to a lesser extent, Marit Lage decks so you can crawl above twenty if it connects. You wouldn't need to sit back with it unless your life total was already compromised, which is more likely given the amount of life loss that exists here.


The other big thing is the aetherborn doesn't block many relevant creatures right now. Any of these creatures except bob trades with an unflipped delver in my favor and aetherborn doesn't block a flipped delver anyway. It really shines in the eldrazi matchup or against a tarmogoyf deck, but I'm not expecting a huge number of either of those right now, although new Ugin might bring eldrazi back in a big way.

Not sure I follow here, either. It's a removal spell built into a creature, and a means to stretch the game out. Sometimes getting ahead is the most important part of the deck's strategy; that's why I always had Vampire Nighthawk in the list because it was incredible at the time. Stretching your life total extends your ability to win games that are attrition-based in crack-back wars or games where Dark Confidant and Bitterblossom help you gain an advantage through life lost. You really can't solely rely on two cards (Jitte) to do that for you.

By mitigating that drawback, the opportunity to get ahead is there. Without them, it becomes too much over time.


The extra bayou is worth considering, I like the Stronghold though, just because this build functions a lot more like a death and taxes style creature control deck rather than an aggro deck, so late game redundancy is more important than curving out.

This archetype in general has always really functioned as a "creature-control" deck. I'm not quite certain how that factors into the ability to cast spells with colorless or black mana, or how having a singleton Stronghold (which is fine, honestly) late game is just better overall than having correct mana early or non-reliance on Urborg, where Wasteland can blow you out.

[studderingdave]

Having a really good time in Legacy right now. I managed to get monthly legacy at my LGS so I built some decks. I always liked the Gate. When Regisaur was spoiled I wanted to try it, and I had a load of Unearth laying around from MM boxes, so I threw it together. Might not all be the convention but it is a blast to play.

4 Dark Confidant
3 Vampire Nighthawk
3 Rotting Regisaur
2 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
4 Dark Ritual
3 Bitterblossom
3 Unearth
2 Collective Brutality
2 Pithing Needle
2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Liliana of the Veil
17 Snow Covered Swamp
3 Wasteland

Sideboard (Still a mess)

3 Surgical Extraction
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Gate to Phyrexia
1 Pox
1 Contagion
2 Dystopia
3 Plague Engineer
2 Dead of Winter

Far from optimal but it gets some wins and big blowouts with Dark Rit into Regisaur.I roll the dice a bit. Tried Aetherborns like the flying for evasion from Nighthawk. Ran Sinkholes, didn't play right. Not too interested into falling over the Pox cliff since Wreen and Six really hurts the hard LD strategies. Dystopia over Dread of Night. I die occasionally to my own Bobs and Blossoms but whatever. I know fetches will be great with Fatal Push, I just didn't pick up any more recently. Still loads of tuning to do.

[Mr. Safety]

Necro here...

Debating a list like this to start testing. I want Cabal Therapist to be good, but (still skeptical) and I also want to dust off my Sinkholes. I think Bloodghast + Bitterblossom should feed Therapist, breaking open the grindier matchups like Pile/Miracles, while Sinkhole should be really brutal against efficient decks like Delver variants. Having this much hand disruption should mean the combo decks should be decent matchups, and the sacrifice effects are good against Depths/Lands/Reanimator.

4x Bloodghast
4x Cabal Therapist
3x Gatekeeper of Malakir
2x Plague Engineer
2x Abyssal Persecutor

4x Thoughtseize
3x Hymn to Tourach
2x Collective Brutality
3x Fatal Push
2x Diabolic Edict
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
3x Bitterblossom
4x Sinkhole
1x Umezawa’s Jitte
1x Buried Alive
4x Polluted Delta
3x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Wasteland
9x Swamp
1x Castle Locthwain

Sideboard
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Nihil Spellbomb
2x Toxic Deluge
3x Dark Confidant
2x Ratchet Bomb
1x Crucible of Worlds
3x Pithing Needle


Sideboard is just a straight-up guess. Hoping to get some feedback on this mess...

[Michael Keller]

I may be in the minority here, but Sinkhole in a world of Daze and Crop Rotation doesn't seem very good.

[Mr. Safety]

I think the discard should clear the way for Sinkhole, but again, it's just a list for testing. I could certainly see it becoming something else.

I have to consciously stop myself from jamming 4x Dark Ritual + 4x Hypnotic Specter. The fun factor is so big, and nostalgic, but it's a recipe for getting blown out.

[Evilpurplemonkey]

Ok. So it would take some readjustment for anyone playing persecutor or regisaur. But this card is worth looking at building aroundhttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200406/67eeffc516568c82c106753ee3bc7d1a.jpg

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