Revised Reprint Policy

[KrzyMoose]

http://wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/other/031810a

Well, I guess that's that.

[Mr.C]

It's funny, I have a near playset of Magic, and I'm pissed. Go figure.

[Meekrab]

Shiny Mox Diamonds sounds pretty pimp. From the Vault cards get new artwork though, don't they? They might be ugly :(

Oh. And thumbs down to not reprinting anything else from the reserved list.

[morgan_coke]

wow, thanks for the nutshot wizards, i was having a good day until i saw this.

[AngryTroll]

Whoa. Is it April 1st already? No? Huge bummer.

[caiomarcos]

"A previous version of this policy allowed premium versions of cards on the reserved list to be printed. Starting in 2011, no cards on the reserved list will be printed in either premium or non-premium form."

So they did the opposite of what everyone was asking for?

[AngryTroll]

I seem to remember some of the NW Sourcers talking about getting pitchforks and torches and driving up to Seattle (I think this was when the lists split, or maybe the new card frame, or perhaps M10, who knows). Anyone want to start a caravan?

Meaning: The sky probably isn't falling, Magic survived all of those things, but man, how frustrating.

[Mr.C]

I seem to remember some of the NW Sourcers talking about getting pitchforks and torches and driving up to Seattle (I think this was when the lists split, or maybe the new card frame, or perhaps M10, who knows). Anyone want to start a caravan?

Meaning: The sky probably isn't falling, Magic survived all of those things, but man, how frustrating.

Will be amusing if they print something like

'Undergrounder Sea'
Island Swamp
You may not have any card named 'Underground Sea' in your Library or Sideboard.

It's not a functional reprint, lol.

Edit: But I REALLY wanted foil Tabernacles for my 43 land. :(

[caiomarcos]

Since the reprint policy does not apply to MODO, I see this as a push to force us all on the online game.

[Forbiddian]

Since the reprint policy does not apply to MODO, I see this as a push to force us all on the online game.

Checkmate.

[Miles_Smith]

Aw. Mox Diamond is a sweet choice of reprint, but I'm disappointed by this news.

[Shimi]

VERY VERY SAD.I Hope they find a MAGICAL way to solve Eternal Format's problems if comunity grows and prices became too high.It is already hard (and very expensive) to find eternal cards in some non North American and European countries so I think the Eternal Boom that occured this year will find a great barrier and limitation very soon.
Once more...I'm felling that wizards are pushing us to play Standard and Constructed instead of the format some elder and not so elder players really loves.

PS: Based on the Caravan Ideia I suggest: People who are going to next GP legacy could take a T-Shirt saying some thing like: "BURN THE RESERVED LIST.LONG LIFE TO ETERNAL FORMATS" , it would be a nice way to say wizards how Eternal players are unsatisfied with this decision.

[wolfstorm]

This has to be some kind of sick joke.

[Wargoos]

So Seas are going to be 100,-€ a piece in some weeks now? oO

[Aggro_zombies]

Looks like Wizards took FoolofaTook seriously.

So: should I sell my cards now and get into Magic Online while it's still cheap, or should I just sell them and pay off some of my student loans?

[Wargoos]

Looks like Wizards took FoolofaTook seriously.

So: should I sell my cards now and get into Magic Online while it's still cheap, or should I just sell them and pay off some of my student loans?

It's the 18th. In a few days I'll get some money on my bank account, add some money thru selling duals and get me a shiny new computer on which I will play starcraft II beta all day. Good times.

[TheDarkshineKnight]

VERY VERY SAD.I Hope they find a MAGICAL way to solve Eternal Format's problems if comunity grows and prices became too high.It is already hard (and very expensive) to find eternal cards in some non North American and European countries so I think the Eternal Boom that occured this year will find a great barrier and limitation very soon.
Once more...I'm felling that wizards are pushing us to play Standard and Constructed instead of the format some elder and not so elder players really loves.

PS: Based on the Caravan Ideia I suggest: People who are going to next GP legacy could take a T-Shirt saying some thing like: "BURN THE RESERVED LIST.LONG LIFE TO ETERNAL FORMATS" , it would be a nice way to say wizards how Eternal players are unsatisfied with this decision.

There is a solution, albeit a distasteful one. Namely, create a new eternal format where cards that are becoming increasingly difficult to get a hold of, such as the dual lands, are banned and support it instead of Legacy.

Sadly, I can actually see Wizards doing this.

[jrsthethird]

I was excited to see Mox Diamond, but then I read the rest of the update. This is just dumb.

[wolfstorm]

VERY VERY SAD.I Hope they find a MAGICAL way to solve Eternal Format's problems if comunity grows and prices became too high.It is already hard (and very expensive) to find eternal cards in some non North American and European countries so I think the Eternal Boom that occured this year will find a great barrier and limitation very soon.
Once more...I'm felling that wizards are pushing us to play Standard and Constructed instead of the format some elder and not so elder players really loves.

PS: Based on the Caravan Ideia I suggest: People who are going to next GP legacy could take a T-Shirt saying some thing like: "BURN THE RESERVED LIST.LONG LIFE TO ETERNAL FORMATS" , it would be a nice way to say wizards how Eternal players are unsatisfied with this decision.

Might actually have to make that T-shirt and wear it to Colombus.

[Mr.C]

There is a solution, albeit a distasteful one. Namely, create a new eternal format where cards that are becoming increasingly difficult to get a hold of, such as the dual lands, are banned and support it instead of Legacy.

Sadly, I can actually see Wizards doing this.

Or just ban all cards on the reserve list in Legacy. Problem solved, and it also gives a big middle finger to the hoarders and 'collectors'. Watch your 'investment' tank now, bitches.

If that were to happen, what tournament level cards would we lose? Would that be the end of the world?

[jrsthethird]

Or just ban all cards on the reserve list in Legacy. Problem solved, and it also gives a big middle finger to the hoarders and 'collectors'. Watch your 'investment' tank now, bitches.

If that were to happen, what tournament level cards would we lose? Would that be the end of the world?

Dual lands. might as well play Extended then...

[Mr.C]

Dual lands. might as well play Extended then...

Print near funcional identical cards then. That's doable.

I'd be pissed if that happens though, mind you.

[Smmenen]

If you make that shirt, I will wear it at GP Columbus. I promise.

[Meister_Kai]

Or just ban all cards on the reserve list in Legacy. Problem solved, and it also gives a big middle finger to the hoarders and 'collectors'. Watch your 'investment' tank now, bitches.

If that were to happen, what tournament level cards would we lose? Would that be the end of the world?


Dredge and/or Merfolk would be the best decks in the format.

[Aggro_zombies]

Dredge and/or Merfolk would be the best decks in the format.
What, didn't you get the memo? Merfolk is expensive to build now.

I wasted my time to write an email to Wizards requesting an explanation and expressing my displeasure. It gives me great satisfaction to know that someone in their customer service department will have to waste a few minutes of their life to read it even though it will have zero impact on company policy.

[from Cairo]

There is a solution, albeit a distasteful one. Namely, create a new eternal format where cards that are becoming increasingly difficult to get a hold of, such as the dual lands, are banned and support it instead of Legacy.

Sadly, I can actually see Wizards doing this.

Yea, I'd read Wizard's statement/actions them continuing to push/support Drafting, Standard and Extended as their primary formats.

Even though Legacy has picked up huge momentum lately, Wizards doesn't really have a way to support the format and please everyone (ie: collectors and players). Rather than back out of the Reserved List and start reprints at the risk of alienating collectors their plan seems to be to keep things stagnent. While this is bad for the Legacy community and the format, I can sort of see Wizards' point of view in being worried that going back on the Reserved List would be a bigger blow to their reputation. Just printing something like Masters Edition seems great in principle, and it would mitigate the lack of copies of some needed cards. But it would add alot of uncertainty to the secondary market as one would be unable to know how frequently and how many chase cards could flood the market at any moment as Wizards' deemed nessicary.

I didn't really see a good solution being presented to the issue of Legacy support. I guess it's good to see a company stick to their promise and show integrity, even if it's not the most popular choice.

[AngryTroll]

Warning: Optimism in the face of disappointment
It's the dual lands that people are most concerned about. A set of Ravnica duals that cost one life instead of two are...well, reasonable. Two life is a lot less than three to fetch a dual. Still gives the advantage to the originals, but it's not as bad as the disparity between the originals and the new ones.

The M10 duals aren't unplayable either. Between the new fetches and some of these new dual lands, Legacy may be playable without the original duals. Clearly, those lists are sub-optimal, but it's not like Legacy is completely unplayable without the originals.

Record setting attendance to recent Legacy Events suggests that card availability may not be as big of a problem as we might think.

[Aggro_zombies]

Clearly, those lists are sub-optimal,
And therein lies the sticking point. Suboptimal lists will lead to suboptimal performance; no one wants to invest time and money to spend a bunch of time losing.

What matters most here is perception. If the format is perceived as being too pricey, the flow of new people into it will dry up no matter how much paper tournament support Wizards gives.

[hungryLIKEALION]

I am dumbfounded that Wizard's solution to this problem is to do the opposite of what everyone wants...

[jrsthethird]

One possibility that stores can do when hosting tournaments is have duals-free tournaments, or, offer a playset of duals to the highest placement of a multicolor deck without dual lands.

So a guy who Top 16's a Jupiter Games-type event with a ProBant deck featuring Hallowed Fountains and Breeding Pools instead of Tundras and Trops can get a set of duals as a prize. This would give people enough confidence to try to run a sub-optimal list.

This doesn't really fix the problem but it gives incentive for people to play without running duals.

[Aggro_zombies]

One possibility that stores can do when hosting tournaments is have duals-free tournaments, or, offer a playset of duals to the highest placement of a multicolor deck without dual lands.

So a guy who Top 16's a Jupiter Games-type event with a ProBant deck featuring Hallowed Fountains and Breeding Pools instead of Tundras and Trops can get a set of duals as a prize. This would give people enough confidence to try to run a sub-optimal list.

This doesn't really fix the problem but it gives incentive for people to play without running duals.
What happens when you give out all your duals as prize? Where do you get more?

There's no duals for sale right now. People are sold out and ebay can't keep up with the demand.

[Meister_Kai]

What happens when you give out all your duals as prize? Where do you get more?

There's no duals for sale right now. People are sold out and ebay can't keep up with the demand.

...And Underground Sea has hit $90 for NM Revised on Starcity. Even Savan-fucking-nah is $50. I know that is not a good price indicator, but lets cut the bullshit: noobs (the overwhelming majority of Magic players) do in fact see this as the actual price of the cards.

To say that future events concerning this price debacle will be interesting could very well be an understatement.

[mossivo1986]

am i missing something here or is there a reason for legacy not to have a proxy limit like vintage.

[AngryTroll]

am i missing something here or is there a reason for legacy not to have a proxy limit like vintage.

You can't sanction events with proxies.

[Bardo]

I would love see WotC post the logic behind their update. These are pretty smart and sophisticated people with a lot of research on their hands. I'm sure they have their reasons, but this seems fucking dumb to me.

Legacy 2012: welcome back to Legacy 2006.

(Fun but irrelevant.)

I feel Legacy has been hung out to dry -- which I guess is their right. Still sucks.

[Mr.C]

The more I think about it, the more I worry that in two years, duals will be $15 again.

That's a scary thought.

[AngryTroll]

I would love see WotC post the logic behind their update. These are pretty smart and sophisticated people with a lot of research on their hands. I'm sure they have their reasons, but this seems fucking dumb to me.


I'm sure we'll see an article in the next couple of days, like we always do with bannings and unbannings, explaining their point of view. They seem to lead the articles with the announcements by a few days. I am sure this wasn't a decision they came to quickly, and they even gathered opinions from people like Stephen Menendian and Ben Bleiweiss over at SCG, so I am sure they must have some pretty solid reasoning to back up their decision.

[Otter]

I never expected that WotC would announce something that would make me actually want to cry over a card game. This just ruins my day. I mean of all the ridiculous, unimaginable things for them to do, why would they seal the reserved list completely, forever after they've admitted that it was a mistake? It just doesn't make any sense to me and I really want to believe that it's just a typo or April 1. I've always at least been able to say, "Well I don't agree with their conclusion, but I can understand their position" but I just don't get this at all. I just don't fucking get it.

I don't want to scream that this is the end of Legacy, but the duals, think of the duals. . . "The fastest growing format," now comes equipped with the fastest shrinking supply of manabases. Good fucking joke.

[hungryLIKEALION]

One of the things I like about Legacy much more than vintage is that you don't need proxies; It's expensive, yes, but not THAT expensive, and it's just awesome to actually own your entire deck. It's a very satisfying feeling.

That being said, with how prices are going up so rapidly, pretty soon it will be THAT expensive, and owning your entire deck will cease to be reasonable... fucking stupid.

I responded to the article on the site, and while I know it's unlikely to matter that much, maybe if there's enough of an outcry we can affect something. Everyone should at least consider doing the same, I think.

[dahcmai]

I damned near own a playset of everything and even I am pissed about this. It practically does doom the eternal formats down to the people who can afford it. I don't get why they would do this. Even the loophole was fine in my opinion. Personally, I'd rather have it completely abolished so we could see cards come back to standard that never had a chance to shine the first time.

The killer is the duals though. It's really going to kill Legacy hard soon. Underground sea just became the next black lotus.

More than likely the earlier post had it on the money. Supporting MTGO for the bottom line. Sad, but probably true. Way to shoot yourself in the foot guys.

[Tacosnape]

Seriously, how did not one of you see this happening when Legacy finally got popular?

It's popular now. Demand rises, and since supply isn't going to, so will price. There is absolutely no way around this whatsoever.

That said, it's a working cycle. It works like this.

1. Legacy gets popular.
2. Prices of cards rise and availability drops.
3. Some people quit as a result of 2.
4. As a result of 3, Legacy gets less popular.
5. As a result of 4, Prices of cards lower again and availability rises slightly.
6. Some people start playing Legacy.
7. Goto 1.

If you want to ban all the expensive cards and start a new format, go ahead. It will result in one of a few things happening.

A. You will fail terribly.
B. See 4 through 6 above.
C. You will succeed to such a degree that in a few years it does the same thing that Legacy does, and all the staples of your new format rise in price.

The cards are expensive as they are because people are willing to pay that much for them.

As for Wizards' reprint policy, excluding a select few cards like Duals, Forces, etc? It's not that big of a deal, because instead of reprinting the old ones, they tend to just print better ones eventually.

The other point that should be mentioned is that, however minor and backwards, Wizards just changed their reprint policy. That's crucial. What they changed it do doesn't matter. It establishes a precedent that they can change it whenever they feel the need. So when they decide the profit margin is worth the uproar? They can change it to allow them to do whatever they choose.

[wolfstorm]

One of the things I like about Legacy much more than vintage is that you don't need proxies; It's expensive, yes, but not THAT expensive, and it's just awesome to actually own your entire deck. It's a very satisfying feeling.

That being said, with how prices are going up so rapidly, pretty soon it will be THAT expensive, and owning your entire deck will cease to be reasonable... fucking stupid.

I responded to the article on the site, and while I know it's unlikely to matter that much, maybe if there's enough of an outcry we can affect something. Everyone should at least consider doing the same, I think.

Agreed.. I have posted as well.

[UrDraco]

Legacy is getting older and older so the cards are bound to get more and more expensive. And now we know Wizards sticks to their words.

If playing legacy is the only thing that matters then why does every single tournament have to be sanctioned? My local store has 10 proxy tournaments which is great. It draws many more players than a sanctioned zero proxy one ever would. When there is a GP or something I can just borrow or rent the expensive cards I need.

[Mr.C]

Or let's just all play EDH. Yeah.

:p

[IsThisACatInAHat?]

I am dumbfounded that Wizard's solution to this problem is to do the opposite of what everyone wants...
This struck me as an interesting comment, because I am infinitely thankful and relieved that Wizards' solution to this problem is to do the opposite of what everyone wants, but exactly what everyone needs- because real world economics apply to real world markets. Now I expect MattH to come and regale me with an angry tirade about why I'm wrong and he's right.

That said, I've already sold off about half of my staples due to fear of reprints. Still, I won't be surprised to read a statement in 2011 that says, "JK these cards too!"

Edit- Can someone remind me why all of this "OMFG LEGACY IS DEAD!!" nonsense is any different from the paranoia threads? Or any more well-founded?

[Jak]

Stupid decision is stupid. They are just limiting the growth of Legacy which is a lose for everyone.

[Antonius]

and here I was, hoping that we would get to draft a new Master's Edition sometime soon.

this is bullshit.

[wolfstorm]

and here I was, hoping that we would get to draft a new Master's Edition sometime soon.

this is bullshit.


Was actually hoping for the same.. oh well :(

[dan who?]

I would love see WotC post the logic behind their update. These are pretty smart and sophisticated people with a lot of research on their hands. I'm sure they have their reasons, but this seems fucking dumb to me.

Legacy 2012: welcome back to Legacy 2006.

(Fun but irrelevant.)

I feel Legacy has been hung out to dry -- which I guess is their right. Still sucks.

I was hoping for WotC to post logic behind their update as well but Maro just posted on twitter

"RE: The Reserved List - It's hard to defend a decision I can't talk about. It's just something we're going to have to live with. :("

so I think it will be a while before we get an explanation.

[SlopeeJ]

That said, I've already sold off about half of my staples due to fear of reprints

really seriously? You selling your "staples" do to the fear of reprints is retarded and has nothing to do with the issues at hand. Talk about paranoia. Its already been said with data to show that reprinting of certain cards would have little if any effect of value of your "staples" or any other old collectible card. Most people don't care about alpha tropical islands...... but they like have duals to play legacy

As mention in previous threads, some people actually care about Legacy Magic and want more people to play not less. OMFG LEGACY IS DEAD!! isn't what anyone is saying, what they are saying is Duals/forces are going to be 100 soon and goyf already is etc etc which will have negative impact. (Ever heard of vintage? me either) Who gives a shit about real world economics or markets, "The Magic trading card game has tremendous appeal as both a game and a collectible. For us, however, the Magic game is first and foremost a supreme game of strategy and skill" Straight from wizards. Who cares about the guy who collects the cards to keep them locked up in their basement...... They will still be worth money (maybe even more if more and more people start playing magic)

There is no reason why certain cards shouldn't be reprinted to help combat magic getting more popular/price increase. This seems like a serious mistake.

[bakofried]

Why would WotC try to push online events? I hate the idea of that. It cuts down on interaction, it cuts down on the fun of the tournament - there's no more mind games, it's just distasteful. Geezuz. Please, people, make an uproar.

[Linkin Pac]

I might be the only one who feels this way, but I think Wizards made the right choice. Everyone has become too worried about making Legacy completely wide open to everyone, but they forget that Magic the Gathering was originally marketed (and still is) as a COLLECTIBLE card game. That means that your cards should maintain a form of protection to ensure that the piece of cardboard you own has distinction from any future thing and that spending money in the first place was worthwhile. Thank you Wizards, you may have pissed off some people in the meantime, but in the long run, the staying value of your product will keep people interested.

[Skeggi]

I might be the only one who feels this way, but I think Wizards made the right choice. Everyone has become too worried about making Legacy completely wide open to everyone, but they forget that Magic the Gathering was originally marketed (and still is) as a COLLECTIBLE card game. That means that your cards should maintain a form of protection to ensure that the piece of cardboard you own has distinction from any future thing and that spending money in the first place was worthwhile. Thank you Wizards, you may have pissed off some people in the meantime, but in the long run, the staying value of your product will keep people interested.

What you're saying, is that when the cards become more rare, they become more collectible? That would depend on your definition of collectible I guess; if there aren't any to come by, they're not exactly 'collectible' in my book. Simply because they'd be (near-)impossible to collect.

[Linkin Pac]

^ That's exactly what I'm saying; if the demand for a card goes up but the supply does not, then the card becomes more desirable and thus collectible. I guess I define collectible as "hard to find" or "worth collecting."

[SlopeeJ]

I might be the only one who feels this way, but I think Wizards made the right choice. Everyone has become too worried about making Legacy completely wide open to everyone, but they forget that Magic the Gathering was originally marketed (and still is) as a COLLECTIBLE card game. That means that your cards should maintain a form of protection to ensure that the piece of cardboard you own has distinction from any future thing and that spending money in the first place was worthwhile. Thank you Wizards, you may have pissed off some people in the meantime, but in the long run, the staying value of your product will keep people interest


Why do people even post this, it makes zero sense.

I quoted what wizards said about Magic... but I'll do it again for you "The Magic trading card game has tremendous appeal as both a game and a collectible. For us, however, the Magic game is first and foremost a supreme game of strategy and skill" Straight from wizards" And again who said anything about making legacy completely open to everyone?


How does reprinting some cards make any of the cards from the early 90's any less collectible? It doesn't... Would make them more collectible. New Daredevil comics don't make Daredevil #1 worth any less. I still can't find the old comics for shit.....


Pissed off are the wrong words, disappointed would be more accurate.

[Skeggi]

^ That's exactly what I'm saying; if the demand for a card goes up but the supply does not, then the card becomes more desirable and thus collectible. I guess I define collectible as "hard to find" or "worth collecting."
A Beta Black Lotus would still be hard to find. Collectors wouldn't go for an M11 version if it would be printed if they collector is trying to complete Beta. I don't see your point.

[sco0ter]

Starting in 2011, no cards on the reserved list will be printed in either premium or non-premium form.

Wohooooooooo! This is the best news I read today. I always disliked the idea of reprints, because I don't see the need of reprints, since I don't see the need of growth of the format.



Record setting attendance to recent Legacy Events suggests that card availability may not be as big of a problem as we might think.

This!

Wizards has no interest to support possible 4000+ players Legacy events. And I guess players don't want that either. I know players which were in Madrid and they told me it was just terrible. Overcrowded, loud and smelly.
Legacy is popular enough. Judging from tournament attendance, even more than any other format.

Concerning the fear, that Legacy will die eventually, because new players don't enter the format, Tacosnape illustrated nicely how it actually works.

[Linkin Pac]

You may find this hard to believe, but some people most likely started investing in the Legacy format because the cards are "collectible" and hard to come by. Part of the appeal of spending money on cards for a game are that the cards will actually be worth something. If you were really worried about a game being "first and foremost a supreme game of strategy and skill," why not bother Wizards to do away with the physical cards and just make a reprinted online card set with Black Lotus, Ancestral Recall, moxen and every card in existence available to everyone free online? Then all cards would be worth next to nothing, but the added strategy of letting everyone have a Black Lotus would be beneficial to the game, right? Part of the reason Magic has been so successful is that the cards have value; take away that and why would anyone want to keep spending money to play a game? As a business looking to make money, Wizards understands this better than any of us.

[sco0ter]

You may find this hard to believe, but some people most likely started investing in the Legacy format because the cards are "collectible" and hard to come by. Part of the appeal of spending money on cards for a game are that the cards will actually be worth something. [...] Part of the reason Magic has been so successful is that the cards have value; take away that and why would anyone want to keep spending money to play a game?

Correct. People love it, because their decks have value. Just look at the "Pimp Legacy decks" thread. Imagine duals could be bought for the price of shockduals, a lot from the appeal would have gone. Browsing through a binder full of 40 duals is much more fun than seeing a binder full of 40 shockduals.
If you had traded hard for an Underground Sea, you eventually have a feeling of success and you know it is something special, which doesn't happen every day. Probably even more if you finally found a Tabernacle. This is a major fun aspect and appeal of Legacy. Trading for 10$ rares instead is nothing special.

[Xero]

You guys realize that the cards will eventually loose value when people stop playing, right? The only reason Tabernacle, etc. is so expensive is because the demand is high. If no one is playing Legacy, your Tabernacle is going to be worth less than if they reprinted a foil one or whatever. And people will stop playing, because at some point there just won't be any more of the rarer cards to be had.

[sco0ter]

And people will stop playing, because at some point there just won't be any more of the rarer cards to be had.

And where do you think those rarer cards will be, if they can't be had? If the paper they are printed on starts to rotten (like in 100 years), then we have a problem. But as long as they are in the hands of players, we are fine. Just look at the cycle, Tacosnape described.

[SlopeeJ]

awesome post and well written....... If you don't think certain cards, such as duals being 100 a piece not having a negative impact on Legacy magic then I don't think there is anything more that can be said. The krispy kreme analogy was right on pair with what is happening right now with magic... Must be part of the real life economics you were talking about.


Therefore the prices of staples expands slowly and naturally, rather than creating an artificial price bubble that will eventually pop (ex.- Dotcoms of 2000). By that I mean Legacy is priced out of too many peoples' reach and the format becomes so unpopular that players leave in droves and staples plumme
What staples are expanding slowly and naturally? You make it sound like the people that are for the reprinting of certain cards want wizards to give away 4 of each dual to everyone. Which clearly isn't the case and strategically reprinting of certain cards within a certain time frame would help with some of the problems from getting much worse in the future. This also wouldn't affect prices as much as some people are claiming. Like their collections would all of a sudden be worthless. The prices are going to keep going up and eventually legacy will be like vintage. That is good for some people I guess, no body will play anymore but their cards will sit in their binders being "collectible" collecting dust.

So again I'll ask, how will reprinting wasteland make your foil promo wasteland any less collectible or worth less?

Talking about Wizards being a business, look what the priceless treasures did for zendikar. I guess your right though, printing cards people want to buy doesn't have any common sense....

[Raystar]

I can't stop thinking that there is another possibility that we haven't noticed yet...

WOTC said that they are not going to reprint the old cards, well...they could just print new versions of them under a different name and ban the ones on the restricted list (or maybe not). That would be a diplomacy masterpiece: sticking to their word while making the eternal community happy.

I prefer to be optimistic and hope that there is more than we see behind the decision.

[jazzykat]

Even though I was/am in favor of limited reprints. I don't see this as the end of the world. As demand grows and supply stays the same it stands to reason that price increases. However, people still seem to be paying this price and attendance is quite high right now.

There exists a certain turnover of players and with this turnover cards continue to become available as the rational person cashes out. I'm not sure if there literally isn't enough cards for all the players that want to play or that there isn't enough available at the price that people are willing to pay (see Ebay for dual lands). What a large percentage of mtgs has decided is that the price of cards is unreasonably high and that it will eventually drive people away. This is a future prediction and we may only find out if it is true when it is already too late. C'est la vie.

The one thing I have a strong dislike of is artificial manipulation of the market. I am afraid that with the increased popularity and same/growing level of scarcity this is something that can happen and certain members have already admitted they were able to do with relative ease on Portal cards already. I don't know how to prove artificial manipulation, and to my knowledge there is nothing illegal about it, but IMO if anything kills Legacy it will be people/groups buying 10s or 100s of card X at a going rate and thereby creating scarcity and then using scarcity as both the driver and justification of jacking up the price of X by Y%.

Lastly, this is the first change to the reserve list since I'm not sure when but if I'm not mistaken it's the first time it has been touched for a very long time. This is a very powerful precedent.

Now, if possible let's go back to enjoying a card game, or our collection, or posting about and/or either, etc.

[Skeggi]

On a sidenote on cardavailability: does anyone know how many Underground Seas for instance have been printed (and are still playable in a tournament)? And I do mean every single tournament legal one; Alpha, Beta, Unlimited, Revised, Summer, European Limited, European Unlimited. Does anyone know? I wonder how many people on earth can actually run a deck with 4x a specific dual.

[thulnanth]

Per www.crystalkeep.com:

Alpha = 1100
Beta = 3200
Unlimited = 18500
Revised = 289,000

As for the rest, no idea - Summer would be a drop in the bucket, though. FBB and FWB all totaled would be large, maybe 80,000? Just a guess, mind you :wink:

Take it easy,
Jared

[Benie Bederios]

http://wizards.com/magic/tcg/article.aspx?x=magic/products/reprintpolicy

Anyone noticed that Force of Will isn't on the reserve list?

-Benie-

[Skeggi]

Anyone noticed that Force of Will isn't on the reserve list?
Yes, it's an uncommon.

According to thulnanth's numbers almost 100,000 people can play a deck with a playset of Underground Seas (assuming his estimate on European prints is correct). That seems like alot. Would it be enough?

[Link Ramirez]

Yes, it's an uncommon.

According to thulnanth's numbers almost 100,000 people can play a deck with a playset of Underground Seas (assuming his estimate on European prints is correct). That seems like alot. Would it be enough?

There are 35921 records if you look up the eternal rankings & ratings. So in theory, it should be enough.

Edit: This of course a very simplified theory. It assumes, that only people who have played at sanctioned events want to have Underground Sea. That everybody only has one playset. etc.

[(nameless one)]

I'm sure we'll see an article in the next couple of days, like we always do with bannings and unbannings, explaining their point of view. They seem to lead the articles with the announcements by a few days. I am sure this wasn't a decision they came to quickly, and they even gathered opinions from people like Stephen Menendian and Ben Bleiweiss over at SCG, so I am sure they must have some pretty solid reasoning to back up their decision.

If you think of it, WotC does not win because they do not sell single cards. We surely did not win on this decision. However, SCG's profits will go up as card prices will go up due to this announcement. Makes me wonder what those two actually stood for.

[DrJones]

I thought I knew already how dumb the people at Wizards of the Coast were, but this announcement confirms Einstein's theory about human stupidity being infinite. I just took the time to write them an e-mail and tell them so, but I'm pretty sure they already know it.

[majikal]

Well here's a solution for dual lands:

Thing
Land - Island Swamp
As ~ enters the battlefield, lose two life unless you have played another land this turn.

This announcement blows though. Now people are going to start hoarding duals and other pricey reserved cards even more than they were before. :(

[hyperchord24]

So what is Wizards reasoning for supporting the eternal formats? They don't bring as much money in as standard does. Their money comes from kids cracking packs and boxes. They've already lost the business of people who are smart enough to not buy packs and just go after the singles. Is this too broad a statement?

[Skeggi]

So what is Wizards reasoning for supporting the eternal formats?
Obviously Wizards prints better and better cards that also see play in Eternal. Jace, the Mind Sculptor is a recent example. Alot of packs have to be opened to supply the demand of Jaces. It's in Wizard's best interest to produce cards that are used in all formats, so the demand is as high as possible. Zendikar with its fetches wasn't the best selling set because of the hidden treasures.

[Oiolosse]

If some of the staples on the reserved list were reprinted (duels in particular) and if this were to increase the popularity of Legacy wouldn't it cause the prices of non-reserved listed cards to increase thus increasing the aggregate cost of the format anyway? Halve the price of Underground Seas and see how fast fetches, reanimates, brainstorms and other lesser-priced but necessary cards increase. Legacy needs to be a bit expensive to get into because (as said by someone above) the satisfaction of playtesting, acquiring and piloting increases. If I want to play an engaging, nearly-free strategy game I'll play chess and if I want to delve into fantasy I'll read a book..but if I want to do both then I'll just play some Magic. It may cost me some dough but it's cheaper than gambling, prostitution and hard drugs and I don't see people letting up there.

[anonymos]

If you make that shirt, I will wear it at GP Columbus. I promise.

same

[Cabal_chan]

Since the reprint policy does not apply to MODO, I see this as a push to force us all on the online game.

Ugh. I just started buying cards for Legacy so I can play in person with friends at tournaments. Why would I want to switch an online version where I have to deal with angsty emo kids? If I want that, I can hop on L4D2.

[arebennian]

The only cards that really need to be reprinted that can't be under this policy are the Duals. Others are only needed for a specific deck and as such are not staples.

Correct?

I honestly think that they will produce a dual land in the next 3-5 years that, while not as good as the originals, will be only marginally worse than the originals. So marginal that it will be like playing with 61cards in a toolbox deck.

That is to say probably not optimal, but the degree to which they are worse will be so fractional that it just won't matter.

[ramanujan]

Good Morning,

Let me first point out which camp I am in. I am not dissapointed by this decision whatsoever. I believe that Wizards was beginning a process wherin they would eventually reprint all playable legacy cards in some form. There was widespread support by several key demographics. There were folks that wanted an opponent to play, and there were folks that wanted the cards to play. These factors allong with a significant outcry of the current prices of legacy staples was a catalyst in bringing this issue to a head. The reason why I believe that Wizards was considering a bold revision on the reprint policy was due to increased revenue (this is obvious). Wizards came to the conclusion that if they could mitigate the negatives of reprints (value lost in cardboard real estate) with the positives (a larger base of players to play with,) that they could sell this idea and reap the fiscal rewards of finding a new market to print to. They did not realize that Starcitygames and other major retailers are not players.

They held atleast two significant conferences on the subject (one with Steven and Ben) and another more recently with a few major collectors. I believe that they probably held several more behind closed doors. The point that is commonly made among people that frequent the boards is that Wizards does not gain from singles sales of discontinued product. The relationship may not be direct, but it is relevent that persons or companies involved with the sale of expensive older discontinued singles are some of the largest purchasers of magic product. Although we are consumers of new product, we generally don't hold a candle to the consumers like Starcitygames, major dealers, and collectors. They have the most to lose by reprints and they pad the pockets of Wizards the most as well. For what it is worth, why would Starcitygames continue to puchase Underground Seas for $60.00 if they thought that there was a significant risk of deflation from reprints. I think that they were privvy to the policy made by Wizards this morning previously.

In addition, it seems like a hard sell to say that there arent enough staples for the format when events consistently break attendence records. Dual Lands are not extremely rare. Tabernacle is pretty rare, but it is a niche card by most standards since it is only used in two decks (White stax and Lands variants) and is almost always a one of by choice.

Keep it real,

Ramanujan

[Skeggi]

Correct?Simply put: no.

As calculations in an earlier post indicate there are probably enough Duals to go round. Not even every deck uses Duals. The problem is not availability: there are enough Duals for sale. The problem is the price. Instead of whining to tear the price down, people should get a decent job and just cough up the money. I did, most of us did. Why should it be different for someone else?

On a sidenote: I know you guys like to cling to SCG prizes to compare current market value, but we all know you can get them (alot) cheaper at other places. So why even bother mentioning SCG?

[walkerm]

Who cares? Evidently almost no one else on this site. Who should care? Everyone, because it applies whether you like it or not. Period. No amount of senseless blabbering will change that. The secondary MTG market is a market. Market forces apply to markets. Is this really not getting through to anyone?


To me, regardless of how applicable market forces are to the singles market (and I'd wager they apply pretty well), I think the point is not if the market goes way down for duals, but rather what the priorities are for Wizards; i.e., who they would rather cater to. It seems that the portion of players who like Magic strategy but don't own $1500 decks would be considerably larger than that of those who own playsets of all the likely reprints. ESPECIALLY if they're preferred means of reprints was to make a Master's Edition type set (i.e., one available for public purchase instead of a severely limited print run like FTV), they could stand to make a LOT of money from this. I'm actually really surprised HASBRO made this decision; not because theyre not entitled to, but because this seems contrary to how they'd make the most profit. Also, a little touched upon fact for those opposing reprints on grounds of already having the cards: you only are affected if you sell your cards. If you keep playing with them, their value makes not one god d*** bit of difference.

Also, i find it asinine that people make justifications for availability based on Madrid attendance. No one ever argued that weren't enough playsets for 2200 people in THE ENTIRE WORLD to play legacy; but the availability of cards to those 2200 people doesnt make it any easier for me to find wastelands or duals in columbus, ohio. or anywhere else, for that matter. Also, the dearth of Legacy premier events until this year (with the 5k's) means that any event is going to be huge, just because someone who has all their legacy cards and has been playing for years is going to make a huge effort to make it to a GP if its (I believe) only the fourth or fifth GP in that format ever, in the 6ish years it's been around.

[Aleksandr]

Guys, I read the first three pages of your bullshit and than I quit. The only reasonable replies are those of Tacosnape and IsThisACatInAHat? (EDIT: and Skeggi.)

EDIT:

Simply put: no.

As calculations in an earlier post indicate there are probably enough Duals to go round. Not even every deck uses Duals. The problem is not availability: there are enough Duals for sale. The problem is the price. Instead of whining to tear the price down, people should get a decent job and just cough up the money. I did, most of us did. Why should it be different for someone else?

[Cabal_chan]

Guys, I read the first three pages of your bullshit and than I quit. The only reasonable replies are those of Tacosnape and IsThisACatInAHat? (EDIT: and Skeggi.)

EDIT:

Anything you disagree with/don't like is considered bullshit? Fascinating.

I hope you don't reach a position of power anytime soon.

[Nidd]

Yes, I will totally shell out 300-400€ for a playset of Duals...

I can only hope this is a sick joke or they have some sort of big plan.

[arebennian]

Simply put: no.

As calculations in an earlier post indicate there are probably enough Duals to go round. Not even every deck uses Duals. The problem is not availability: there are enough Duals for sale. The problem is the price. Instead of whining to tear the price down, people should get a decent job and just cough up the money. I did, most of us did. Why should it be different for someone else?


- The price is subject to supply and demand. If the fetchlands in Zen were actually Original Duals, then the price of duals would be cheaper then they are currently.

- The difference is the fact that you and I got in when the prices on staples were reasonable, and that the prices are quickly becoming unreasonable and depending upon the market may continue to do so. Or at least until the tipping point.

- BTW, your sidenote was answered here by Meister_Kai:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?16916-Revised-Reprint-Policy&p=439056&viewfull=1#post439056
And it is actually important because the price sets a precedent that the rest of the market often follows. They test what the ceiling for a card price is, and if people are still demanding the product at that price then they elevate it again. Once they reach a point where demand for the card at the nominated price plateaus or drops they adjust.
Online sellers follow suit and the rest of the market follows...

[Finn]

Naturally the inclination of folks posting on this thread are those of desire for reprints. I am on the fence about it, myself. But I am intrigued by the decision of WotC. I did not expect it. In particular, I wonder how the discussions are going on elsewhere in favor of this decision.

Is it coming from employees wanting to preserve company integrity?
Have there been collectors sending in complaints about reprints?
Are store owners bitching?

Someone else?

[arebennian]

Yes, I will totally shell out 300-400€ for a playset of Duals...

I can only hope this is a sick joke or they have some sort of big plan.

Decent duals in a core set within the next 5 years. I'm sure of it.

[TooCloseToTheSun]

I started playing this game about four years ago while in college and I am about to graduate this May. Since I have started playing I have picked up 26 duals, 30 fetches, 4 Tarmogoyfs, and countless other money cards. It took a lot of time (four years!!!) and effort and I was basically on a fixed income. I am glad wizards kept there reprint policy otherwise it was like I just wasted my time. I mean why should I buy anything expensive cause wizards might reprint it latter and then i can pick it up cheap? I think that if people calm down and take the time to buy the cards for the decks they want to play they are going to be better off in the long run. Do your testing on workstation so you have a list you like before you buy cards. Take your time looking for good deals, It took me 4 months Tempo-Thresh. Try to befriend people who have more cards then you or even different cards so eventually you can borrow stuff from them. I borrow cards from my roommate all the time he even let me use his Tabernacle once when I played vaka-pox (He is also in college). Basically this boils down to one thing if you want to play you can get the cards one way or another.

[(nameless one)]

Hey, if Dual Lands are the main issue, we can always play the Shocklands right?

As much as it saddens me, I will try not to get affected by this in my deckbuilding strategies.

[arebennian]

Hey, if Dual Lands are the main issue, we can always play the Shocklands right?

As much as it saddens me, I will try not to get affected by this in my deckbuilding strategies.

No.
You can't.
They put you way behind the curve.
I'm sure a suitable replacement will come in the next 5 years though.

[Gheizen64]

I'm embarrased. So, basically, they leave a format dying a slow death because people are pissed that a game isn't good enough as an investment. Right. Magic the Stock.

[hyperchord24]

I'm embarrased. So, basically, they leave a format dying a slow death because people are pissed that a game isn't good enough as an investment. Right. Magic the Stock.
I don't know about anyone else, but I bought 4 tarmogoyfs to use them in my decks. I wanted tarmogoyf so I bought it. It's like I wanted lunch so I bought food. If you want to play in the format, this is what it costs. It's not a stock, we know that. But it'd be nice to not lose money. You know, because I like money.

[UrDraco]

Now that I know for one billion percent that duals will never be reprinted pay for them is less scary. Maybe others who were reluctant to enter the format feel the same way. I also feel like Eternal formats are a great place to dump all the money you make off of standard/extended players.

I believe it is going to become more and more normal for stores to hold proxy events. That will attract more players without forcing them to shell out a lot of money. Why not pretition wizards to allow some sort of sanctioned proxy events? Then the people complaining about prices killing the format will finally shut up. I also doubt collectors would complain about sanctioned proxy events because proxies have done little to hurt Vintage prices.

[DrJones]

Now that I know for one billion percent that duals will never be reprinted pay for them is less scary. Maybe others who were reluctant to enter the format feel the same way. I also feel like Eternal formats are a great place to dump all the money you make off of standard/extended players.Maybe the duals end banned, maybe proxies are allowed only for cards in the reserved list, maybe people stop playing eternal formats altogether, a lot of things can go wrong. Some people have the mentality that paying outrageous prices for a piece of cardboard is okay as long as you can sell them later at an even more outrageous price. I remember seeing that kind of mentality in Comic collectors, too. Just sayin'.

[Rune]

This is very sad. From what I understand (by reading the Wizards' forums), this is a decision made by Hasbro, and not by a people who actually know what's best for the game. Personally, I feel that my collection of Legacy staples has decreased in value because of this.

[Wyrath the Great]

I am dumbfounded that Wizard's solution to this problem is to do the opposite of what everyone wants...

Yes, this is like the first time ever, that this brilliant company have made a bone-headed move like that... *Borat break* ...NOOOOOOOOOTTTT!!!

I guess this conflict shows perfectly how Magic's own fans, the collectors and hoarders, ends up destroying the fun for their fellow players. Doesn't help that the company itself is completely retarded as well, though.

MaRo sez: "PLAY STD GUISE. WE MAEK MOAR MONIES THAT W... I MEAN, BUT IT'S JUST SO FUN." XDDDD

[Julian23]

Who cares? Evidently almost no one else on this site. Who should care? Everyone, because it applies whether you like it or not. Period. No amount of senseless blabbering will change that. The secondary MTG market is a market. Market forces apply to markets. Is this really not getting through to anyone?

[...]

I think Wizards is using the price barrier to their advantage to slowly expand Legacy at a rate they are comfortable with, like any good business would. Unfortunately that doesn't suit your populist attitudes, so all I can say is, "sucks bro."

Two things:
1.) A lot of people think neoliberal theories about market forces are fundamentally flawed because they are too abstract and neglect too much of the actual variety of human behaviour. Offer me 50$ or a 90% chance of winning 500$. I will always take the 50$. Neoliberalism tells us this kind of behaviour would make no sense because the other one has a much better payoff in the long run. So? We don't care, it's not the way a lot of people operate. Don't get me wrong, I fully understand the logic you apply. It's just, I think a lot of the basic assumptions of neoliberalism like perfect information or the nonexistance of subjective preferences are too far reality. As I said, don't get me wrong, I think all this homo oeconomicus talk has a lot of appeal and has its uses. I however also think that it should not be worshiped like a dogma because of its inherent flaws. Just like any model.

2.) Expanding Legacy slowly by adjusting the price barrier only makes sense if you are capable of doing so. By comitting yourself to the reserved list you neglect any influence on the Legacy market. By upholding the reserved list you can not _expand_ Legacy because there will be zero growth once card availability / prices reach their limit. It will just start declining from there. What Wizards basically does is not "slowly expanding".


On a side note. Avoid accusing people of populism. Calling out "populism" just because people think in different ways and based on other premises than you do is even worse than populism. It's demagogism.

[SMR0079]

Ballz -

The vast majority of you are missing the point.

It's always about the money.

Wizards realized that if they reprinted Duals and other staples in promo form or special sets it would draw players away from their money maker: Standard.

Legacy is just emerging as a real format and we had the largest magic tournament in the history of the game in Madrid.

As soon as most people start playing Legacy they fall in love with it compared to Standard. Wizards could not risk the loss in revenue of too many players switching to Legacy and not buying as many packs of the new sets.

In one sense it's confirmation that Legacy kicks ass, but it will also limit the growth of the format, almost certainly falling from it's current peak.

We just witnessed the peak of our beloved format.

Legacy is dead, long live Legacy.

[DrJones]

It's weird that Mark Rosewater said that he cannot talk about what happened. If he is under NDA, it either means something is going to happen in the next sets (which he can't talk about) or that some legal action is in place.

[Nidd]

Ballz -

The vast majority of you are missing the point.

It's always about the money.

Wizards realized that if they reprinted Duals and other staples in promo form or special sets it would draw players away from their money maker: Standard.

Legacy is just emerging as a real format and we had the largest magic tournament in the history of the game in Madrid.

As soon as most people start playing Legacy they fall in love with it compared to Standard. Wizards could not risk the loss in revenue of too many players switching to Legacy and not buying as many packs of the new sets.

In one sense it's confirmation that Legacy kicks ass, but it will also limit the growth of the format, almost certainly falling from it's current peak.

We just witnessed the peak of our beloved format.

Legacy is dead, long live Legacy.
I don't think the GP Madrid was the peak of Legacy's existance. Legacy could thrive without official support, without GPs. Maybe proxies are the way to go... Only time will tell.
Let's hope there are some goodies when the Shocklands rotate out of Extended.

[Cabal_chan]

It's weird that Mark Rosewater said that he cannot talk about what happened. If he is under NDA, it either means something is going to happen in the next sets (which he can't talk about) or that some legal action is in place.

Legal action? Wha? Did collectors threaten to sue WotC if they did too many reprints or something?

[Tychoides]

Well guys, it's been fun, but it looks like this is the beginning of the end for Legacy. I know it might seem like this is just another "the sky is falling" post, and maybe it is, but I am just devastated over this news. I'm definitely selling my cards now that this has been announced and while the iron is kind of hot because of upcoming GPs.

To everyone happy about this or thinking the format will be OK unsanctioned and with proxies, just look to Vintage to see the future of the format.

[Meister_Kai]

Seriously, how did not one of you see this happening when Legacy finally got popular?

It's popular now. Demand rises, and since supply isn't going to, so will price. There is absolutely no way around this whatsoever.

That said, it's a working cycle. It works like this.

1. Legacy gets popular.
2. Prices of cards rise and availability drops.
3. Some people quit as a result of 2.
4. As a result of 3, Legacy gets less popular.
5. As a result of 4, Prices of cards lower again and availability rises slightly.
6. Some people start playing Legacy.
7. Goto 1.

My only question is this:

What precedent were you using when creating this "working cycle"? What format has this ever happened in? The only format I can think of that would be applicable is Vintage, which went into a sharp decline around 2006 or 2007 and has yet to see any sign of life (or maybe I'm wrong about that).

Also, it seems to me that what many people in this thread aim to do is re-define what a "budget deck" is. I believe that many people got into Legacy not only because its one of the most constantly engaging (and best) formats but because the most expensive card in most decks when the popularity started to climb was Underground Sea, which was what, $30 at most?

I can't buy into people who say the prices will definitely decline if Legacy becomes less popular. Call me when a revised Underground Sea is back "down" to $40. I'll eat my words on a silver platter, however I believe that call will never come.

[Wyrath the Great]

It's weird that Mark Rosewater said that he cannot talk about what happened. If he is under NDA, it either means something is going to happen in the next sets (which he can't talk about) or that some legal action is in place.

Or perhaps he is just not interested in sharing his views on an unpopular decision? Better for him to write a sad smiley and pretend that he was against making it.

MaRo sez: "AWW GUISE, IM SO SORRY ABUOT THE LEGACY THINGY. COME SPEND SUM MONIES IN STANDARD INSTED LOL."

[AngryTroll]

He may just be referring to wanting to wait until the official article comes out, so that everyone can get the whole story in one sitting, in order, the way Wizards wants to tell it, instead of fragmented information from a variety of sources.

[IsThisACatInAHat?]

Two things:
1.) A lot of people think neoliberal theories about market forces are fundamentally flawed because they are too abstract and neglect too much of the actual variety of human behaviour. Offer me 50$ or a 90% chance of winning 500$. I will always take the 50$. Neoliberalism tells us this kind of behaviour would make no sense because the other one has a much better payoff in the long run. So? We don't care, it's not the way a lot of people operate. Don't get me wrong, I fully understand the logic you apply. It's just, I think a lot of the basic assumptions of neoliberalism like perfect information or the nonexistance of subjective preferences are too far reality. As I said, don't get me wrong, I think all this homo oeconomicus talk has a lot of appeal and has its uses. I however also think that it should not be worshiped like a dogma because of its inherent flaws. Just like any model.
Ok, fair enough. Most people are risk averse in most situations (which we do actually account for). But now more than ever, it seems difficult to believe that we aren't as close to perfect information as possible (the Internet). I also think even though subjective preferences exist, money is still the biggest incentive a person can have. For example, I really love Troll and Toad for certain products (Rats' Nest which comes with a Jitte was priced for less than the cost of a Jitte single for a while). But when I saw they were charging $14.99 for Kjeldoran Cunning (wanted StP+ BS) and MTGFanatic had it for $8.99, I went with them despite my personal dislike for the company. I know personal anecdotes are far from usable data, but the point is that money talks. Really, really loudly and with a megaphone.

More on-topic, the point I'm essentially trying to get across is that popular opinion on reprint policy is objectively wrong. It is not to our benefit to abolish the reserve list, it is not to our benefit to reprint expensive Legacy staples and it is not to our benefit try to pressure Wizards to do so. The business guys at Hasbro seem to have told the gamer guys at WotC, "Leave this one to us because we know what we're doing." And evidently, they do. I plan to write them a long and heartfelt letter of praise for their decision.


2.) Expanding Legacy slowly by adjusting the price barrier only makes sense if you are capable of doing so. By comitting yourself to the reserved list you neglect any influence on the Legacy market. By upholding the reserved list you can not _expand_ Legacy because there will be zero growth once card availability / prices reach their limit. It will just start declining from there. What Wizards basically does is not "slowly expanding".
What makes you think they're not capable of doing so? Before today, the Reserve List existed unchanged. Today, they said "OK, these cards are coming off to be reprinted." Simple as that. As I mentioned, I wouldn't be surprised if they did the same thing next year. Telling us that only X Y and Z will come off could just as easily become X Y Z and A B C, with exactly as little effort. If that's the direction Wizards wants to go in, fine. Personally, I would rather see them truly ignore (populist, what else could you call it?) attitudes. Then, Legacy will outgrow itself and shrink back down to size, then the process starts all over again. This 5-10 year cycle sounds perfectly acceptable to me until staples are like Tabernacle. At that point they could begin reprinting (slowly and over time) and everything would be fine.

Edit- @Meister_Kai, who said:
What precedent were you using when creating this "working cycle"?
This (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boom_and_bust).

[Humphrey]

strange acting.

why reprint moxD and not sliverqueen in the first place and now shutting down even the judge foils?

[(nameless one)]

I hope though in light of all this that they reduce on whats on the list.

They have done it before with Clone.

[menace13]

I hope though in light of all this that they reduce on whats on the list.

They have done it before with Clone.

Or they can like you know print a better functional version like Body Double and Vesuvan Shapeshifter that have/do see play...
Now if they can only do that with everything, oh umm what's functionaly better than duals?

[UrDraco]

I don't think proxies would turn Legacy into Vintage. Legacy is popular because there are sooooo many different competative decks. People are freaking out when they don't have to. Oh and everyone who is going to quit, please PM me so I can buy your collection to resell it in 6 months when Legacy is still alive and well, thanks.

[The Wolf]

Legacy is dead, long live Legacy.

Really? Come on, you had more the 2k people at an event and your saying the format is dead? No one was even really considering major reprints up until say a month ago when these articles started coming out, and now people are talking about selling all their cards?

Since you had cards, apparently you were able to play in tournaments before this announcement. What changed?

Besides, they are reprinting stuff. It’s online. So all those who feel entitled to be able to play every format and not pay for it, you have a way.

And this is coming from someone who can not play all the decks in the format. Get over it.

Also, I will pay 5 dollars more then UrDraco for your collection, so PM me instead.

[UrDraco]

Damn!

http://i.imgur.com/KPEgP.jpg

Wolf makes very good points though. I doubt any of the 2200 are going to stop playing because of this. Legacy has always cost more than standard and always will. If you want a cheap Legacy play on workstation or MOTL. A lot of cards have cost near what they do today (not Tabernacle, duh) for a while and the format still managed to produce the largest tournament ever. I can't believe price is killing Legacy.

[majikal]

Legacy is dead, long live Legacy.


Really? Come on, you had more the 2k people at an event and your saying the format is dead? No one was even really considering major reprints up until say a month ago when these articles started coming out, and now people are talking about selling all their cards?

You misunderstand the quote. It means that Legacy as we have known it and that has been supported by WotC no longer exists, and in its place is a "new" Legacy where WotC has realized that it cannot reasonably support it in the same way they have been recently. You may not realize it, but this announcement marks the end of the push to make Legacy a major format. It simply cannot sustain an expanding playerbase without reprints, and unfortunately that means that players need to be culled through the natural selection of market pressure.

[Nidd]

Or they can like you know print a better functional version like Body Double and Vesuvan Shapeshifter that have/do see play...
Now if they can only do that with everything, oh umm what's functionaly better than duals?
Reverse Shocklands, maybe?

[majikal]

Reverse Shocklands, maybe?
I know this isn't what you meant, but for some reason I envisioned a land that shocks you if you want it to come into play tapped, and I had to lol a little.

[Aleksandr]

Anything you disagree with/don't like is considered bullshit? Fascinating.



Are you serious?

It's bullshit because it's bullshit and therefore I disagree with it. Not that it's not bullshit, but because I disagree with it, therefore it's bullshit. Ok?

[sunshine]

@WotC:

:tear:

In all seriousness though. I was a little surprised their announcement didn't make it clear that the current reserved list wouldn't be altered. I mean, a promise not to reprint any "reserved-list card" means nothing if you don't set in stone what the reserved list is.

Also: "...in a tournament-legal version..." makes me think: Unglued, Unhinged, ... UnLegacy? Silver bordered duals ftW!

Edit:

Also, unless there is some legally binding contract put in place, there's nothing to say a future WotC won't find itself in the same position current WotC does. That position being "this policy was set in place by a company comprised of different individuals, at a different time, with a different intent... etc. so what should we do now?".

[thickasabrick]

In one sense it's confirmation that Legacy kicks ass, but it will also limit the growth of the format, almost certainly falling from it's current peak.

We just witnessed the peak of our beloved format.

Legacy is dead, long live Legacy.

Legacy has just been reborn as an online format, where Wizards can still make money off of it.

As for me, I'm happy about this. I cashed in my 401k for NM copies of paper Underground Sea - who needs mutual funds when you have the reserved list???

[BenBleiweiss]

For what it is worth, why would Starcitygames continue to puchase Underground Seas for $60.00 if they thought that there was a significant risk of deflation from reprints. I think that they were privvy to the policy made by Wizards this morning previously.

I was completely shocked to see this announcement this morning - I had every expectation that the Reserved List was heading in the other direction (being abolished over time). Our current buy/sell prices are in line with current demand - we would adjust our prices to meet future demand if/when dual lands were reprinted (which, it looks like they will not be now).

NM Playset of Revised Dual Lands will be over $3,000 by December 31st, 2010. Think about that.

- Ben

[Smmenen]

If you disagree with this decision, let Aaron Forsythe and Mark Rosewater know:

aaron dot forsythe at wizards dot com
mark dot rosewater at wizards dot com

I'm sure people who agree with this decision will let it be known. So make sure we drown them out.

[Aggro_zombies]

It tickles me to think that the best thing that could happen to the format now in terms of supporting continuous, long-term growth would be the banning of the original dual lands.

Oh Wizards, you're so silly.

[Smmenen]

I don't think proxies would turn Legacy into Vintage. Legacy is popular because there are sooooo many different competative decks. People are freaking out when they don't have to. Oh and everyone who is going to quit, please PM me so I can buy your collection to resell it in 6 months when Legacy is still alive and well, thanks.

The concern is not six months from now. *It's six years from now.*

Look at what happened to Vintage. Huge spike in popularity followed by huge spike in prices, followed by free fall stagnation.

[Smmenen]

It tickles me to think that the best thing that could happen to the format now in terms of supporting continuous, long-term growth would be the banning of the original dual lands.

Oh Wizards, you're so silly.

That would be so awesome. Let all those 'investors" relish the reserved list then.

Let's start the campaign to ban dual lands :)

[Mark Sun]

That would be so awesome. Let all those 'investors" relish the reserved list then.

Let's start the campaign to ban dual lands :)

/runs to buy playset of Ravnica Shocklands.

[Meister_Kai]

Edit- @Meister_Kai, who said:
This (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boom_and_bust).

And how is that, in any way, shape, or form, an acceptable outcome?

[Tychoides]

NM Playset of Revised Dual Lands will be over $3,000 by December 31st, 2010. Think about that.

I know I am doing that right now. Highly considering selling my playset of the duals after this annoucement. Hard not to think about it, if you're a player of Legacy and not a collector, honestly!


The concern is not six months from now. *It's six years from now.*

Look at what happened to Vintage. Huge spike in popularity followed by huge spike in prices, followed by free fall stagnation.

Thank you for saving me the trouble of having to make the same reply. :)

[Arsenal_Fan]

It is so strange that Hasbro would use collectors as their precedent for their decision. I can't think of any other game that they produce that people use for a collection or investment. You would think if the product (dual lands) are out there in new products, they would make more money and attract more players for their game.

[Ciberon]

That's an excuse. They simply do not want to support Eternal formats.

[paK0]

Ballz -

The vast majority of you are missing the point.

It's always about the money.

Wizards realized that if they reprinted Duals and other staples in promo form or special sets it would draw players away from their money maker: Standard.



Thanks, actually one person gets it!


It's really hard to hold back the laughs when the "market experts" share their wisdom. WotC does care about the secondary T2 market, but they don't give a shit about the Legacy market. If Jace is sought, people will bust packs, if Duals are sought, WotC gets.... um nothing out of it?


They will let Legacy continue so some players will pick up the 1-3 cards that are actually usefull and let Legacy slowly wither away, just like Vintage. Moneywise it is the right decision, but I don't think I can agree with it.

There are two things that might happen:

1: Nothing, and Legacy will die (not tomorrow, but several years from now)
2: They will print better Duals (Tripples?)


Whatever happens, selling the Duals right now seems like the best idea.

Just ordered my Dredge Deck(still afordable) and I'll probably cash out my Duals and buy something I can actually have fun with.

[Forbiddian]

That's an excuse. They simply do not want to support Eternal formats.

It seems like they could stand to make a lot of money off of the REPRINTS, which would fly off the shelves.

[wcm8]

2: They will print better Duals (Tripples?)

Perhaps triples aren't so ridiculous of a possibility -- there is a lot of non-basic land hate, and actually having the additional land type could be detrimental with cards like Choke, Blood Moon, etc. Perhaps the 'downside' should have more to do with the potential hate cards and less to do with an inherent drawback.

[Yare]

It's weird that Mark Rosewater said that he cannot talk about what happened. If he is under NDA, it either means something is going to happen in the next sets (which he can't talk about) or that some legal action is in place.

Or his boss told him not to discuss it very much.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

A lot of the arguments in this thread are so retarded that it makes my head hurt. It continues to baffle me that Wizards can basically shit in some people's cereal and they'll applaud the company's bold avant garde culinary tastes.

There are not enough dual lands for long term growth in the format. Everything else is irrelevant next to this point. Legacy requires duals for 80% of the decks. If you do not have those, you are playing a sub-optimal format.

As supply shrinks, dual lands will continue to rocket upwards in price. Fewer and fewer people will be able to play, but price will not go back down due to speculation, which is only heightened by the reserve policy. The result will be a small format for rich people and old collectors.

Legacy will die. And there is not a single uptick to this. The idea that the reserve policy helps Wizards print a collectible card game is laughable, childish stupidity.

The last cards on the reserve list were printed when Bill Clinton was president, the twin towers still stood and cell phones were just starting to obsolete beepers. People were still worried about the Y2K bug and hadn't yet heard of CSI or Adult Swim.

It was a while ago. No modern cards gain value from the reserve list. No players gain value from the reserve list. The reserve list was, put simply, a mistake, limited in relevance to the dual lands and a few other cards. It was a mistake that Wizards long acknowledge as a mistake.

The second time they make the same mistake, however, I'm less inclined to be forgiving.

[KrzyMoose]

From Aaron Forsythe's Twitter:

"Sometimes the desires of the individual (me, others) and the needs of the corporation do not align. Won't be much more of an explanation."

and

"Why would we stop pushing a format that has given us our largest attendance ever? Is there a better metric I don't know about?"

[herbig]

I blame the secret society of lizard people who want to bring about a global government. Open your eyes people.

[Bardo]

@ IBA - I could give you a hug. (completely agree with your post)

@ Krzy Moose - Thanks. I tried finding Forsythe's Twitter page and gave up. Anyway, that says it all. It's Hasbro's decision and the chiefs will trump someone like Aaron everytime. The only thing someone like Aaron or Mark can do is gripe and get on with things. The only other options involving putting your job at stake (which is not what a sensible person would do when there's no moral imperative).

A complete freaking bummer, in any case.

I guess, enjoy enjoy the popularity while it lasts, because it won't. By 2013-14, I predict Legacy will become a footnote yet again. A pity. Not selling my duals though.

[Sharpened]

From Aaron Forsythe's Twitter:

"Sometimes the desires of the individual (me, others) and the needs of the corporation do not align. Won't be much more of an explanation."

and

"Why would we stop pushing a format that has given us our largest attendance ever? Is there a better metric I don't know about?"

While I can appreciate that this didn't come from R&D and it's not the choice that they would have made, the lack of an explanation sucks.

[Smmenen]

@ IBA - I could give you a hug. (completely agree with your post)

@ Krzy Moose - Thanks. I tried finding Forsythe's Twitter page and gave up. Anyway, that says it all. It's Hasbro's decision and the chiefs will trump someone like Aaron everytime. The only thing someone like Aaron or Mark can do is gripe and get on with things. The only other options involving putting your job at stake (which is not what a sensible person would do when there's no moral imperative).

A complete freaking bummer, in any case.

I guess, enjoy enjoy the popularity while it lasts, because it won't. By 2013-14, I predict Legacy will become a footnote yet again. A pity. Not selling my duals though.


From Aaron's twitter:


Hasbro was not a factor in anything.

http://twitter.com/mtgaaron

[Cabal_chan]

From Aaron Forsythe's Twitter:

"Sometimes the desires of the individual (me, others) and the needs of the corporation do not align. Won't be much more of an explanation."

and

"Why would we stop pushing a format that has given us our largest attendance ever? Is there a better metric I don't know about?"

But...but...if Hasbro wasn't a factor in anything...then what? This is just chock full of stupid.

[Otter]

Aaron's twitter post is a joke. R&D has been raking in cash hand over fucking fist for WotC/Hasbro with MtG. They couldn't ask for a better moneymaker than a game that's comprised of printing colors and text on cardboard and having it be legitimately ADDICTIVE. What better business model could you want? Selling stuff that's worth fractions of a cent in four or five dollar packs and then having people come back for BOXES OF IT. Yet when some reprints would do the game a bit of good, oh gee whiz no, can't possibly don't anything that wouldn't be perfect for the corporation. Aren't they getting enough money out of this game with $50 Bankslayer Angel? Can't they give just a little and say screw a couple of collectors? Corporate lunacy at its finest.

[pie4life]

If you disagree with this decision, let Aaron Forsythe and Mark Rosewater know:

aaron dot forsythe at wizards dot com
mark dot rosewater at wizards dot com

I'm sure people who agree with this decision will let it be known. So make sure we drown them out.

Seriously, the only way we can hope to influence anything is by making our voices heard. For every post made on this thread, a post should be made on the official thread, and an email sent to every high-level wizards employee you care to contact. Perhaps it wont help, but we should at least try.

And note the join date: 2007. In three years this is the first time I've been mad enough about anything to post.

[thickasabrick]

From Aaron Forsythe's Twitter:

"Why would we stop pushing a format that has given us our largest attendance ever? Is there a better metric I don't know about?"

I replied to Aaron on Twitter, but the obvious answer is that "Legacy doesn't make Wizards as much money as Standard."

[herbig]

We could also boycott the GP.

[RogueMTG]

We could also boycott the GP.

Haha, that'll show 'em... we don't even like big legacy events!

...:rolleyes:

[Cabal_chan]

Haha, that'll show 'em... we don't even like big legacy events!

...:rolleyes:

Maybe we can get some Sourcers into the Top 8, so when they do those Top 8 interviews, someone can speak out.

[Atwa]

We could also boycott the GP.

Won't work.

The only way you can get something done with them, is to keep showing them more and more people care about the format. The bigger the Legacy crowd, the better chance we have Wizards will start taking us (and our complaints/worries) seriously.


Maybe we can get some Sourcers into the Top 8, so when they do those Top 8 interviews, someone can speak out.

You can make yourself be heard by the Judges/Event Coverage guys, however even if you speak out, I doubt they will publish it on their site.

[Nihil Credo]

My own personal pledge, which I also just mailed to AF and MR:

I will not, ever, put a single dime towards playing Legacy on MTGO.

[wcm8]

R&D can create cards that can overshadow reserve list "staples" or create new competitive eternal deck archetypes... but Dual lands are the biggest blow, because right now there is no real replacement for them. Even if they printed a Dual Land with no draw back (which is what the M10 set is close to being), they won't be as functionally good because of the lack of land subtype for Fetches, etc. Not sure what the eventual solution towards this dilemma would be.

[Tychoides]

I understand the opposition to the boycott idea, but on the other hand, there are two points to think about:

1) Aaron F. basically said that they think things are fine because of the attendance of GP Madrid. (Multiple people have posted the tweet.)

2) The only way a company listens is by hitting them where it counts: their wallet.

[DracosTheBlack]

I know this sucks but this maybe Wizards way of promoting Legacy.

They may have deemed all of the cards on that list were mistakes in someway and I wouldn't be surprised if you start seeing more of them being banned.

A lot of those cards are little OP and pretty expensive and in the long run may be detrimental to the format. Instead of reprinting the cards that they don't like they may be doing this.

I am going to wait and see what happens.

DracosTheBlack

[Nidd]

I understand the opposition to the boycott idea, but on the other hand, there are two points to think about:

1) Aaron F. basically said that they think things are fine because of the attendance of GP Madrid. (Multiple people have posted the tweet.)

2) The only way a company listens is by hitting them where it counts: their wallet.

So, we should run proxy tournaments and get as many people as possible to attend these unsanctioned events, while writing reports and praising the Legacy scene?

[hyperchord24]

If the theory behind choking off the eternal formats is that they take away from standard, their money maker, that precludes the fact that us Legacy/Vintage players will convert to Standard. I don’t think that’s going to happen.

I say fuck the collectors. Why would any business concerned with making money care about collectors? Why wouldn’t WotC print booster packs filled with eternal staples with the stipulation that the cards only legal in the formats they are legal in now? The set would cost less than any other set to print because there’s no investment in a design team; the cards already exist and there’s no investment in play testing either. They’d in theory make money hand over fist. But then again, who would buy them? Aren’t eternal players smart enough to know that you should never buy packs? Why would these reprint packs be any different?

People who buy packs are like children who believe in Santa Claus. It’s fun for a while, and it’s part of everyone’s life for a while, but there comes a point when it just stops making sense. It costs less to build the deck you want by buying the singles.

[Tychoides]

So, we should run proxy tournaments and get as many people as possible to attend these unsanctioned events, while writing reports and praising the Legacy scene?

Unless you want the format to be like Vintage is now, probably not a great solution. But Legacy could very well turn into that anyway. Let's face it: Vintage is technically a Wizards sanctioned format, but they rarely use it. They hardly used Legacy until recently, they could go right back to their big moneymakers and drop Legacy just as easily.

I'm not saying a boycott is a perfect idea (very valid cons have been presented), but I'd be for a temporary boycott until WotC changes course. Hopefully. I just know that money is the only thing companies care about and it's the best way to get a point across. Complaining on forums and sending email only goes so far, so there's got to be something to try. :(

[Antonius]

http://wizards.com/company/emailtoauthor.asp?author=Wizards%20of%20the%20Coast&headline=Revised%20Reprint%20Policy

if you are upset, send an e-mail as I have.

[honestabe]

Dear Legacy,

Welcome to vintage.


Seriously, this is horseshit. I own duals, and don't give a fuck if they get reprinted, I hope they do.

Anyway, this is probably WoTC trying to kill eternal, and moving eternal players in t2 and t1.x. Back when vintage was thriving, they restricted the shit out of it, and it pretty much died. Now wizards flipped the bird to legacy, right when it was really getting popular.

Proxied t1.5 ftw

[The Wolf]

The concern is not six months from now. *It's six years from now.*

Look at what happened to Vintage. Huge spike in popularity followed by huge spike in prices, followed by free fall stagnation.

Free fall in popularity means free fall in prices as well. 99% of tournaments were proxy anyway. We all know your stance on proxies, but availability of cards has had nothing to do with the decline. From people I know in the NE tournament scene, what actually happened was that everyone moved to Legacy because it was a more open and fun format. That’s even happening to me and the rest of my team right now. That being said, this is not the place for a vintage discussion.

The reality is this:

People playing legacy in real life = Profit for Dealers.
People playing legacy on MODO = Profit for Wizards.
People have a finite amount of money to spend on Legacy, and it can either go to dealers or Wizards. Which do you think they will pick.

The funny part about this is, they will just go back on this statement in a few years if they feel like it. In case you haven’t noticed, they just use these announcements to make people feel better. They already broke the reserve list. It’s done. Great, they re-promised it. So that will last until they break it again.

[Kangaxx]

I guess Legacy players lucked out. Force of Will isn't on the reserve list. ;)

http://wizards.com/magic/tcg/article.aspx?x=magic/products/reprintpolicy

[Jak]

I guess Legacy players lucked out. Force of Will isn't on the reserve list. ;)

http://wizards.com/magic/tcg/article.aspx?x=magic/products/reprintpolicy

Yay! We can run Force in our MUC and Merfolk decks!

[crow_mw]

Oo indeed it is not. Maybe a typo ?

[Gocho]

Maybe we can get some Sourcers into the Top 8, so when they do those Top 8 interviews, someone can speak out.

Won't work. If you read spanish players interview in the GP Madrid TOP 8 you can see that someone miss the usual question: Where can people find you playing FNM?

The real answer was:
- When Wizards let Eternal FNM, if not, I will not play.

Wizards censored his answer.

[Cabal_chan]

Won't work. If you read spanish players interview in the GP Madrid TOP 8 you can see that someone miss the usual question: Where can people find you playing FNM?

The real answer was:
- When Wizards let Eternal FNM, if not, I will not play.

Wizards censored his answer.

Wow...just wow.

[Atwa]

Oo indeed it is not. Maybe a typo ?

No, it hasn't been on the list for the last couple of years (if it even ever was). That was why people were rooting for binging back Force of Will with the Coldsnap precons (reprinted Ice Age and Alliances cards), which they didn't do.

I want to make a note that this decision doesn't mean they won't make a "Master Edition: Legacy" with paperboard cards. Lots of stuff is actually available to reprint even with the new policy. And even if they did take the duals off the list, that wouldn't mean Wizards was actually going to reprint those cards, I'm just sad they told us they won't. That is off course if they keep true to the policy and won't make changes to it again (which has happened a couple of times since they implemented it).

I want to side myself with Nihil Credo:


My own personal pledge, which I also just mailed to AF and MR:

I will not, ever, put a single dime towards playing Legacy on MTGO.

I won't either, and to be even more radical, I won't ever spend a dime on MTGO again (had a failed try during Kamigawa block). I play magic for the love of the game and as a way to meet new people, or have fun with old friends. I am not going to pay money on virtual cards I can't touch ch, collect or rearrange in my binders, especially after I spend thousands and thousands of euros on this game, no way I am going to start over again.

I feel the decision Wizards made with the tightening of the reserved list has got a lot to do with their announcement Legacy will be available on MTGO. The only way for Wizards to make a lot of money on Legacy is to push Legacy players to their online game. I wonder why they don't realize people playing Legacy (the biggest part anyway) are playing it for the same reasons I do, and pushing them towards the digital game will only alienate those people.

[DrJones]

I just saw a snow-covered Taiga mockup in a spanish forum, lol.

[SilverGreen]

Don't know if someone more noticed it, but:


"A previous version of this policy allowed premium versions of cards on the reserved list to be printed. Starting in 2011, no cards on the reserved list will be printed in either premium or non-premium form."

Remember, Wizards has been a LOT used in the last few years in making tricky announcements of dual nature, in order to create excitement among the community and get lots of free marketing. MaRo himself seems to love this kind of tactics, and does it all the time.

They said they won't reprint cards from the Reserved List anymore, ok. But they didn't say that the Reversed List will even be there when 2011 come. Technically, if there isn't a Reserved List around anymore, they won't be breaking this announcement if they reprint, say, Morphling in M11. Just stressing, what they said may also be read as "we won't reprint cards that are in the Reserved List as long as exists a Reserved List".

Think about it. Is it possible yet that every one of us is complaining about the wrong part of the notice.

[DrJones]

Don't know if someone more noticed it, but:



Remember, Wizards has been a LOT used in the last few years in making tricky announcements of dual nature, in order to create excitement among the community and get lots of free marketing. MaRo itself seems to love this kind of tactics, and does it all the time.

They said they won't reprint cards from the Reserved List anymore, ok. But they didn't say that the Reversed List will even be there when 2011 come. Technically, if there isn't a Reserved List around anymore, they won't be breaking this announcement if they reprint, say, Morphling in M11. Just stressing, what they said may also be read as "we won't reprint cards that are in the Reserved List as long as exists a Reserved List".

Think about it. Is it possible yet that every one of us is complaining about the wrong part of the notice.They could also change the printing method so that they now burn their cards with laser. Or they could rename the company. But that's highly unlikely.

[(nameless one)]

I just saw a snow-covered Taiga mockup in a spanish forum, lol.

They could print snow-covered duals with land types with no drawbacks. It's like printing the original duals but since it has an additional type, it's not a direct or "functional" reprint. It's a good way to circumvent the reprint policy.

[Meister_Kai]

First of all, I would bet a good sum of money that Wizards sees this complaining over the reserve list as the same as when people bitched about new card frames, or M10 rules, or whatever. I'm pretty sure they have a "we'll get over it" mentality.


My own personal pledge, which I also just mailed to AF and MR:

I will not, ever, put a single dime towards playing Legacy on MTGO.

A million, million times this.

I personally detest MTGO. Magic to me is a social game, a game where you get together with your friends and go to FNM, tournaments, playtest sessions, whatever. I don't see MTGO as social (I don't see World of Warcraft as social either). When I am playing Company of Heroes online, I am playing against another person, but I am not engaging in social activity; I am merely in the same room so to speak with a person doing what I am. In person, I can see the person, hear him, see him think and if he is actually a girl, day dream about grabbing her ass if shes hot. I also think the whole aspect of buying Magic cards that cost more than $5 is somewhat ridiculous (even though I have indeed done it) and I'm not even going to get started about how retarded MTGO sounds from that point of view.

I am relieved that FOW is not on the reserve list. I am relieved that Mox Diamond will see one more chance at life (even though we all know the Tempest version will never be the $15-$20 card it once was). However, what IBA says about the reserve list and how it concerns collectors well, concerns me. What if enough people down the road complain that, in fact, their $50 Baneslayer Angels are no longer worth the $50 they put into them (I know that BA is already more or less confirmed for M11)? What if down the road Wizards just ups and puts all mythic rarity cards on some sort of new reserved list?

After looking through the reserve list, we all have to admit that besides the bleeding heart "everything should be reprinted!" individuals, the dual lands are the cards that matter most when discussing the reserved list. Someone has already posted a plan sort of like what I am about to, but I cannot remember who or where. Here is what I think one possible solution could be:

1. Announce the banning of the original dual lands from Legacy (and ONLY Legacy, i'll explain further down) giving a date at which the ban becomes effective.
2. Print new, functionally identical cards with different names. They cannot be used in the same deck as older duals of the same type that would create a situation in which one would have 5 Underground Seas. 3old/1new for example.
3. Set up a redemption system. Yes I know this sounds like a logistical nightmare and yeah, it is. However I believe this is a hole Wizards has dung themselves into and, if they actually care about coming out eventually, something they will have to do.
4. Players can send Wizards an unlimited dual of any type for 2 of a new kind, or 1 revised for one new dual. Anybody who enters a playset of any single beta dual gets 4 of each new dual. This is the ONLY way to get the new duals for a period of 1-2 years (until the old dual ban becomes effective) . After this they are released in a WIDE-SPREAD RELEASE set. This way the market does not become flooded immediately and players can still trade the old and new duals amongst themselves for the time being. Collectors have plenty of time to get the old duals they were missing, or "jump ship" and not lose out.
5. Everyone plays with new duals that are unhampered. The old duals are only usuable in Vintage, thus their price would probably drop and stagnate. Vintage decks get better mana bases. Legacy decks have the same mana base as before. People still need old duals to collect/play Vintage, therefore their value isn't destroyed.

I know some of this looks crazy but I can't think of anything better. Is there any other option besides LOL LEGACY GO BOOM, THEN LEGACY GO BUST? Perhaps we could iron out the rough edges of this plan that I made.

EDIT: Guess I'm an idiot, none of this is possible at all because an identical copy of Tundra with a different name cannot be made.

The only part of this new reserved list that really, really pisses me off is this:
A previous version of this policy allowed premium versions of cards on the reserved list to be printed. Starting in 2011, no cards on the reserved list will be printed in either premium or non-premium form.

Why in the flying fuck did they change this? I have encountered nobody, and I mean NOBODY, who had a problem with things like judge foils. Who came up with this and why? Is there some shadow-Magic_government run by old boy collectors who thought reprinting Negator was just one judge foil to many? Seriously, god damn.


EDITEDIT: I implore you Legacy players, DO NOT boycott the GP. Do not boycott any physical Legacy anything. However, feel free to boycott Legacy MTGO. If you feel like Wizards will listen if the voice of the community says "I want to play in person", then make yourself heard. I think the best we can do at this point is let them know that they cannot lead us into an online cage-pin.

[Drizztjah]

What annoys me the most is that we don't even get a decent explanation to why they are doing this.

[SilverGreen]

They could also change the printing method so that they now burn their cards with laser. Or they could rename the company. But that's highly unlikely.

And you thought about it all by yourself, too? How awesome! ;)

[Wyrath the Great]

What annoys me the most is that we don't even get a decent explanation to why they are doing this.

Here's one:

To push all paper Magic players into playing Standard.

... and

To push all MTGO players into playing the eternal formats. Or rather to push the eternal format players, that aren't willing to surrender to Wizards' bullying onto MTGO.

Reason for this? Standard is the format they make the most money on in paper, and the opposite is true for MTGO. Due to the tickets system Wizards will happily support any format - as long as it is expensive - online. With the current prizes of eternal staples online they'll try to get as many of us as possible to play there. Heck, they even moved the launch of the Legacy format several months forward on MTGO, and I for one don't see that as a random occurence.

[puppektion]

[after reading 90-some posts, I skipped to this page]

When I read this announcement, I initially got rather upset. I was concerned that this will stagnate the format's growth and that the continuing prices will drive people away. However, after sitting back and thinking for a while, I started to see how this could potentially be a good thing:

Limited supply of higher end cards can/will lead to greater creativity with deckbuilding. Budget and semi-budget decks can and will arise by the players dedicated to the format that are still building with limited funds. More specifically, by looking for budget alternatives to upper tier decks, we're creating more diversity in the format.

Wizards will have to come up with alternatives to the reserve list to reprint in future FTV, Duel Decks and Judge Promos. There are plenty of very playable cards not on the the reserve list (Force of Will, Sinkhole, Reset, Sol Ring... the list goes on), and they've shown they don't hate printing other playables in them (see Demonic Tutor, Goblin Lackey).

It really could go either way. Right now, I'm thinking it may actually have a positive effect on the format, but we'll see what happens in the next couple months.

-Jack

[Bardo]

I'm not angry, but this is pretty much the first time in my involvement with the game that I will ever "send them a letter." Not an angry one, but a concerned one. I hope others will do the same.


What annoys me the most is that we don't even get a decent explanation to why they are doing this.

Me too.

[markbris]

[after reading 90-some posts, I skipped to this page]


Limited supply of higher end cards can/will lead to greater creativity with deckbuilding. Budget and semi-budget decks can and will arise by the players dedicated to the format that are still building with limited funds. More specifically, by looking for budget alternatives to upper tier decks, we're creating more diversity in the format.

-Jack

Yea cuz I love having to build budget decks that literally have no chance in any kind of real competitive arena where I have to go up against the cards that I can't afford. I'd rather just not play the format or pony up for a deck with the good cards. So I'll prolly just pony up, but its gonna be alot longer before I can get them because of the price, and other people might just say screw it.

[puppektion]

Yea cuz I love having to build budget decks that literally have no chance in any kind of real competitive arena where I have to go up against the cards that I can't afford. I'd rather just not play the format or pony up for a deck with the good cards. So I'll prolly just pony up, but its gonna be alot longer before I can get them because of the price, and other people might just say screw it.

You make it sound like "Budget" means "Uncompettitive". That's not necessarily the case. Even if you just metagame like hell with it, you can still make a decent showing.

[markbris]

You make it sound like "Budget" means "Uncompettitive". That's not necessarily the case. Even if you just metagame like hell with it, you can still make a decent showing.


You get the general idea though, I don't know about other people but I get the feeling that like myself, they don't like having to go into every tournament as a fairly big underdog just because the prices on cards are redic.

[MrSoze]

If you make that shirt, I will wear it at GP Columbus. I promise.

Absolutely seconded. Someone make the shirt!

[Gocho]

They could print snow-covered duals with land types with no drawbacks. It's like printing the original duals but since it has an additional type, it's not a direct or "functional" reprint. It's a good way to circumvent the reprint policy.

Go, Ice Age crap, go! Cold Snap, Into the North

[MattH]

Limited supply of higher end cards can/will lead to greater creativity with deckbuilding.

I see this argument pop up now and then, and I have to say, it's either hopelessly naive or the biggest piece of bullshit ever. In order to believe this, you would have to believe that this isn't already happening right now. You really think that there aren't people right now who are trying their damnedest to be competitive without spending $700? Do you think that people who don't own Money Cards don't have enough incentive today to gin up a new tier-1 deck?

It's ridiculous on its face, but if you need further convincing, engage in a little thought experiment: if someone stole all your duals, goyfs, forces, and p3k/legends rares tomorrow, which would you be most likely to do?

a) borrow the valuable cards off a friend, or
b) find something else to do with your time, or
c) be hit with a bolt of inspiration, launching into a frenzy of deckbuilding, locking yourself in your room, only emerging when you've finally broken a new mono-colored deck

If you answered 'c', get yourself to a church, because you have some lying to repent.

[Leftconsin]

Go, Ice Age crap, go! Cold Snap, Into the North

Primal Order already exists and doesn't see real play.

[honestabe]

I find it funny that people state that the reserved list serves not function. Because for a while, it didn't. However, all the attention it got made Wizards realize that the reserved list is a money making machine. Wizards refuses to reprint the cards that type 1 and legacy revolve around, thus the formats die, and players of t1 and legacy move on to limited/standard/Extended, which is how WoTC make their loot. Even better for Wizards of the Coast, they now have MTGO. Now, they can make Duals/everything else on the reserved list available online. It's cheap, and easy to run. This way, they still sell Duals to people who already have them in real life, and anyone who wants to play legacy has to pay the money to download MTGO, as well as buy the whole deck. I promise, unless the outcry from players it so much that Wizards feel obligated to change their policy (lol, doubt it though money>happy people to Wizards) that we will see type 1 on MTGO within 2 years.


And it makes sense. Why else would Smmenen and Ben be brought to WoTC to discuss reprints, only to just say "no" shortly after. They were really asking "Would vintage be good on MTGO?", however, I doubt Smmenen and Ben knew that at the time.

This proves that WoTC just doesn't give a flying fuck about anything except money.

Never again will I spend a dime on MTGO, and I suggest noone else does either, if we are to be taken seriously

[socialite]

I think they made a great decision and I'm glad they clarified the issue for everyone.

[Barook]

Won't work. If you read spanish players interview in the GP Madrid TOP 8 you can see that someone miss the usual question: Where can people find you playing FNM?

The real answer was:
- When Wizards let Eternal FNM, if not, I will not play.

Wizards censored his answer.
Oh wow.

Looking through the answers, Andreas Müller was also bullshiting them - last time I checked, the Sax is a small, popular pub and certainly not a place for FNM.

Regarding their new stance on the reprint policy:

This pic sums it up pretty well. (http://img3.imageshack.us/i/mybrainisfulloffuck.jpg/)

Eternal players are certainly not going to switch to T2 or Extended just because of that - most of them would just sell their collection instead. Addtionally, more and more players would eventually end up in Legacy once their favorite cards rotate out of Extended.

Are they really expecting the people to use MTGO instead? People would have to rebuild their collection from scratch and prices aren't really much lower due to a lack of several, popular cards. MTGO's programming is also extremely poor and I regret to the very day every Cent invested into it (good thing it wasn't much, but still).

[Ciberon]

After thinking I just realized the ugly truth. Wizards knew that making two legacy GPs would make the price of the cardboard sky-rocket. That's why they made them. As a little step to destroy the format. This revised reprint policy confirms it for me.

Way to go, Wizards.

[DrJones]

This proves that WoTC just doesn't give a flying fuck about anything except money.Two thousand people tournaments make money.

[bakofried]

Is there any way we can make an official petition/pledge sheet, boycotting legacy online?

[Cabal_chan]

I think they made a great decision and I'm glad they clarified the issue for everyone.

How is it a good decision?

Unless you're a collector that's worried about some bottom drop out on the value of your collection.

[markbris]

How is it a good decision?

Unless you're a collector that's worried about some bottom drop out on the value of your collection.

this is sarcistic im guessing because they didn't actually clarify anything really.

[Meister_Kai]

I think they made a great decision and I'm glad they clarified the issue for everyone.

C'mon now guy, how can you type out that second clause in good conscious? Do you know something we don't?

[xTrainx]

I'm fairly certain its sarcasm.

[honestabe]

Two thousand people tournaments make money.

But getting those 2 thousand people onto MTGO because noone can afford to play in real life makes more

[DrJones]

People that find reasonable paying $1000 for a competitive deck might want to know that a small rules change or the banning of a single card might throw them out of the format.

[(nameless one)]

But getting those 2 thousand people onto MTGO because noone can afford to play in real life makes more

If I'm going to play Magic online, I might as well play on MWS.

[xTrainx]

People that find reasonable paying $1000 for a competitive deck might want to know that a small rules change or the banning of a single card might throw them out of the format.

I'm slightly confused by this comment. 'People that find reasonable'? I have a feeling you are making a valid point, and I'm interested to know what you meant.

[Zilla]

I'm not angry, but this is pretty much the first time in my involvement with the game that I will ever "send them a letter." Not an angry one, but a concerned one. I hope others will do the same.
This is my stance as well. I never write letters, but I already have in this case. I let them know that I am concerned for the future of the format in the face of their decision. I also let them know that I will never spend a cent on MTGO. I think it's extremely important that they recognize how many people are concerned with this policy.

Take the time to write them a letter if you haven't already: http://wizards.com/company/emailtoauthor.asp?author=Wizards%20of%20the%20Coast&headline=Revised%20Reprint%20Policy

I encourage you to be as polite and constructive as possible.

[socialite]

How is it a good decision?

Unless you're a collector that's worried about some bottom drop out on the value of your collection.

Yes.


C'mon now guy, how can you type out that second clause in good conscious? Do you know something we don't?

No, I don't think so. Just happy about the decision.


I'm fairly certain its sarcasm.

Negative.

[SlopeeJ]

I just ordered 4 of my favorite card back when I used to play during revised days Veteran Bodyguard. Get them while they are hot cause he will never be printed again............:tongue:

[Nebuchadnezzar]

The new policy is "as empty as their soul!" In one sentence they state cards which are being reprinted this year, the next is a link to a list of cards that were promised to never be reprinted. Cards they are reprinting are on the list. Therefore, the list means nothing. The policy it seems can, has been and will be changed seemingly at will; therefore the policy means nothing.

[xTrainx]

You seem to have overlooked the "in 2011" clause.

I believe it is time to write my first letter of complaint - I'll be back later ;).

[Bardo]

I encourage you to be as polite and constructive as possible.

Just want to underscore Zilla's point here.

If you go full-on polemic screed that's full of meaningless threats of boycotts and "you have no soul," etc. (remember, THEY'VE HEARD IT ALL BEFORE, MANY TIMES), they're not going to take you seriously and will file your email into the "Angry: Will Get Over It" file. That is, they'll hit delete. If your email is written by a concerned, long-time player that is intelligent and thought-out, they'll listen. They might not (probably won't) do anything about it, but they'll listen.

Feel free to cross-post your letters here for posterity.

[Julian23]

Primal Order already exists and doesn't see real play.

It's from Homelands.

[Nebuchadnezzar]

Yea, I didn't mean "empty as their soul" as an attack of any kind, it was a bad joke from a video game. Anyways, I was trying to point out the impermanence of the reserve list. It's not and never was nor ever will be set in stone. It will be changed again in the future, I think. Notice the lack of "we promise to not change this policy again in the future" clause. WotC are in no way legally obligated to abide by it or keep it around if and when it becomes unprofitable for them to do so.

[P@90210]

Theres really nothing to do short of openly boycotting any new product/inprint cards/sanctioned events to really show our disaproval.

Nothing will really do anything until the eternal community hit them right where it hurts, the wallet, email them a picture of you setting your DCI card on fire, never attend a FNM, draft or prerelease again.

[Pulp_Fiction]

Theres really nothing to do short of openly boycotting any new product/inprint cards/sanctioned events to really show our disaproval.

Nothing will really do anything until the eternal community hit them right where it hurts, the wallet, email them a picture of you setting your DCI card on fire, never attend a FNM, draft or prerelease again.

Thats already done except for the DCI card on fire part. I only play legacy.

[puppektion]

Theres really nothing to do short of openly boycotting any new product/inprint cards/sanctioned events to really show our disaproval.

Nothing will really do anything until the eternal community hit them right where it hurts, the wallet, email them a picture of you setting your DCI card on fire, never attend a FNM, draft or prerelease again.

I don't think an eternal player boycott would do all that much but hurt the secondary market. Wizards really doesn't make that much off our format. And I don't see standard players being too pissed about this.

[Cabal_chan]

Yes.



No, I don't think so. Just happy about the decision.



Negative.

I'm not at all surprised you'd put the supposed value of your collection over the long term health of the format.

Before you make any other statements on the issue, you should probably try 'playing Legacy instead of reading about it.' The opposite of your "Reading about Legacy instead of playing it" line above your avatar.

[Koby]

The policy it seems can, has been and will be changed seemingly at will; therefore the policy means nothing.

This is actually what has been going on for the last 10 years. It's foolish to think they know what they are doing before they do it. Evidence of this is management of MTGO as the platform.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Dear Wizards of the Coast,
Regarding your article "Revised Reprint Policy":

I can't think of how to interpret this other than you just don't want Legacy to survive. I think you know good and well that Legacy is as unplayable without dual lands as Vintage was without Power 9. And when a playset of revised dual lands starts reaching the price of a Mox or Black Lotus, the format will drop off and die.

This is especially true in what I know you know are your biggest growing markets in Latin America and Asia, where the original duals are even harder to find.

It may be that you think people will play Legacy on MTGO, but I think you misunderstand the nature of the Eternal formats if you believe this. At least everyone I know that plays Legacy is an older player who's been in the game a while. They're interested in a more casual, friendlier environment than most younger Standard or Limited players, and MTGO just doesn't offer that.

It may also be that you've just made the decision that you want Extended and Standard to remain the core constructed formats for business reasons. While understandable, this hardly seems a valid reason to shoot Eternal formats in the foot by guaranteeing that access will only become more difficult over time.

Either way, I don't see how announcing that older cards will only become useless over time, playable in what can only be niche formats, will serve either your interests as a company or the stated purpose of the reserve list.

[TheCramp]

I sent this. I bit off the cuff, but thats all I have energy for:

You need to say why you have done this, why it is good for magic, and why it is good for legacy. I love legacy, and the only reason I play standard, and I do – spending a good bit of money to do so, is to access cards that are legacy playable. I am happy to do this. I am currently part of a play-group who only plays T2, but there is budding interest. These players are competitive, if they could play top decks they would. I want to know why it is good for magic, and good for legacy – a diverse, healthy, creative format – to continue to make the barrier to entry for this kind of player so high.
I’m not mad. I feel their must be a reason. I hope it is because it is good for magic, and good for legacy.

[THEchubbymuffin]

Is it possible for those who do not have byes to the GP get new DCI numbers with names like "reprintduals now" or something of that realm. Then when they top 8 they will get that on the tournament coverage.

[Some Guy]

I just saw a snow-covered Taiga mockup in a spanish forum, lol.

pix or it didnt happen.

:tongue:

[OurSerratedDust]

I just wanted to throw out there that when I saw the title of this thread, I got excited and assumed they were reprinting revised cards (duals.) Upon looking at the contents, I realized that it wasn't quite what I had in mind. :(

[Jak]

Reading around on Twitter, it is nice to see pros with the same feelings as most people on this forum. This isn't like M10 where half the people were furious with change and the other half saw it as an improvement/no big deal. I don't think anyone can or should agree with this change simply because it limits Legacy's life. It is great seeing players of all kind agree with this.

[Shimi]

Dear Wizards of the Coast,
Regarding your article "Revised Reprint Policy":

I can't think of how to interpret this other than you just don't want Legacy to survive. I think you know good and well that Legacy is as unplayable without dual lands as Vintage was without Power 9. And when a playset of revised dual lands starts reaching the price of a Mox or Black Lotus, the format will drop off and die.

This is especially true in what I know you know are your biggest growing markets in Latin America and Asia, where the original duals are even harder to find.

It may be that you think people will play Legacy on MTGO, but I think you misunderstand the nature of the Eternal formats if you believe this. At least everyone I know that plays Legacy is an older player who's been in the game a while. They're interested in a more casual, friendlier environment than most younger Standard or Limited players, and MTGO just doesn't offer that.

It may also be that you've just made the decision that you want Extended and Standard to remain the core constructed formats for business reasons. While understandable, this hardly seems a valid reason to shoot Eternal formats in the foot by guaranteeing that access will only become more difficult over time.

Either way, I don't see how announcing that older cards will only become useless over time, playable in what can only be niche formats, will serve either your interests as a company or the stated purpose of the reserve list.


That is just what I was feelling when I suggested that players should make a Shirt to wear at GP Columbus so WotC could not just ommit what legacy players or a huge percent thinks.

I WILL NEVER play MTGO or another Virtual Magic cause you wanna see your cards in your hand and see you opponent face( who many times are friends sitting on a kitchen table eating some food and talking about their jobs, familly and trips while some are playing magic and other are making a barbecue, some legacy players can't play FNM or Champs every saturday but they get one day a month to play a great legacy event where they meet other people who like playing with the old good cards.

[Some Guy]

http://cgi.ebay.com/1x-Magic-MTG-From-The-Vault-Relics-SEALED_W0QQitemZ220574619732QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item335b459854

9 neutrals and 12 negatives kind of explain the minor unscrupulous price. I am glad this is not my local store.

[Jon Stewart]

Oddly, for some reason, I think Wizards was so out of touch with us that they though this announcement would make us happy or something. Maybe we didn't do a good enough of job of conveying to Wizards how much we care about teh long term survival of legacy, and that we see the reprinting of duals and such as necessary for that to happen. And clearly, wizards wasn't paying any attention to what people were saying here.

They could have done it in a way that pleases collectors too. Reprint dual lands as Rares. The price stays high throughout their time in standard, giving collectors plenty of time to offload their collections without losing money, since the cards will be VERY sought off in standard and extended too. The collectors offloading them means more players get their hands on them. Then once they rotates out of standard, the supply has been sufficiently elevated to ensure that Legacy can grow a bit more.

I'm sooo pissed off they didn't abandon the reserved list altogether.

But stuff like the ridiculous markups on From the Vault sets makes me kind of happy they're not going to do that anymore.

It seemed wrong of wizards to print ultra rare premium sets that are marked up like crazy by everyone that get's hold of them.

I want to see cards reprinted in regular packs (as Mythic Rares if neccesary). That way everyone that buys packs has an equal shot at getting them and they get reintroduced to standard players too. It seems more fair that wy.

[dahcmai]

Printing this would fix a lot.

No-so-Underground Sea

Swamp-Island

When "No-so-Underground Sea comes into play take 1 damage

Tap for U or B

[swats0n]

I agree with the people that think this is part of a push to move Legacy to MODO, an arena where Wizards can directly profit off of it. The arguments about collectors or "card investors" are missing the point.

What I don't understand though, is that Legacy on MODO will be like Legacy on paper in that it will require one large initial investment and not much after. Would wizards really pull something like this just to make some quick cash? Or is there a way for them to continuously profit off of online Legacy like they do with Standard. I don't play MODO and never will so if someone can clarify that it would be great.

And to top it off, the lack of an explanation is just really disappointing and deceitful. Are they ashamed? Hiding some reason to release later? Had no choice and were forced by legal or corporate? There has to be a better way to balance profit for Wizards and fun for the players than this.

[dahcmai]

I am sadly pulling apart 4 sets of beta to Ebay this week. It took me a long time to put those together, but I realized with this, Wizards is no longer in control of the game and the push for MTGO is a big one. It's a money thing, it's obvious. They stand to make nothing off Legacy or Vintage. They stand to make a ton off MTGO Legacy and Vintage. Corporations at work.

They may not realize they just shot themselves in the foot with a nuclear missle, but they will in a few years if it takes that long. I recommend selling out on cards that are worthy enough to pay off your house, buy you a new car or generally worth too much to really hold on to. Sit on a few because they will go up in the short term, but watch it closely. I do think the bubble will go nuts then drop like a rock.

I figure I have more than $400,000 or so and I think I'll just pay off the house and call it good. I'll keep what I like for fun decks and I'll still play Legacy at the local tournaments as usual, but no way I'm sitting on so much anymore.

Have you seen Ebay today? Collections are being put up faster than I thought they would be.

[morgan_coke]

dachmai,

Even 1 damage is still dramatically worse than the zero damage you take form regular duals, its just less worse than the 2 from shockduals.

The suggestion of Snow duals doesn't really work either, as it suddenly and dramatically powers up cards such as Into the North, Scrying Sheets, and Skred. Scrying Sheets + SDT being the most problematic of those interactions.

The only way I can think of to print new, equally powered duals is:

Aboveground Sea
Swamp/Island
T: add 1 to your mana pool.

It's functionally different in that it can add colorless in addition to U and B, but that is such a corner case difference that it shouldn't matter in 99.99999% of the games.

However, I seriously doubt they'd print the above land cycle. The best we can hope for now is probably something along the lines of River of Tears duals or Grove of the Burnwillows duals, which still aren't really competitive with the original duals. Also, any "new" duals equivalent to the old ones presents the problem of a two color deck just running 8 of them, which is a whole other problem in and of itself.

This was a horrible decision that pretty much does spell the long term end of paper legacy. However, I do not expect them to reverse it. Given the public and expressed internal sentiment, I'm guessing a decision came down from Legal or Branding or somesuch and overrode everyone involved who wanted the reserved list gone. That internal order just isn't going to be changed. All we can do is hope they do a better job managing availability online. Which I sincerely doubt they will, but one can always hope.

[Mr.C]

dachmai,

Even 1 damage is still dramatically worse than the zero damage you take form regular duals, its just less worse than the 2 from shockduals.

The suggestion of Snow duals doesn't really work either, as it suddenly and dramatically powers up cards such as Into the North, Scrying Sheets, and Skred. Scrying Sheets + SDT being the most problematic of those interactions.

The only way I can think of to print new, equally powered duals is:

Aboveground Sea
Swamp/Island
T: add 1 to your mana pool.

It's functionally different in that it can add colorless in addition to U and B, but that is such a corner case difference that it shouldn't matter in 99.99999% of the games.

However, I seriously doubt they'd print the above land cycle. The best we can hope for now is probably something along the lines of River of Tears duals or Grove of the Burnwillows duals, which still aren't really competitive with the original duals. Also, any "new" duals equivalent to the old ones presents the problem of a two color deck just running 8 of them, which is a whole other problem in and of itself.

This was a horrible decision that pretty much does spell the long term end of paper legacy. However, I do not expect them to reverse it. Given the public and expressed internal sentiment, I'm guessing a decision came down from Legal or Branding or somesuch and overrode everyone involved who wanted the reserved list gone. That internal order just isn't going to be changed. All we can do is hope they do a better job managing availability online. Which I sincerely doubt they will, but one can always hope.

The problem is, I know that just like me, there are o ton of people that think like this:

I don't FUCKING want to play online, thank-you sir. If I'm playing an online game, it sure as hell ain't digital cards, it's MW2, BC2, Forza, whatever. Magic cards are that, cards. Geez, I want to know who came up eith this brilliant idea and why.

[MMogg]

Hmm, I'm late to this party as usual. I would like to address a point that keeps coming up again and again and that is boycotting MODO/MTGO.

I play MTGO and have been considering buying into Legacy or Classic online. I don't play online because I have some deep philanthropic desire to support Wizards financially; rather, they provide a service I want. I haven't bought into Classic/Legacy online because I want to focus on building my Legacy paper collection, but with nowhere to play Magic in my area (hell, nearly nowhere to play eternal in my country!), MTGO offers 24/6.5 access to opponents, and you can play with friends online when you have a chance. You can also play in tournaments.

I guess my point is why should I cut off my nose to spite my face? What good can come from telling Wizards that you have no intention of buying into MTGO? Chances are (and I'm going way out on a limb here), those who have said they have no intention of playing MTGO Legacy, have no MTGO Legacy decks built and probably never had any intention of playing online regardless of the announcement.

Having physical cards and friends and tournaments to play in is great, but having cards and no one to play with sucks balls. I know the fear is that in 10-20 years time, all Legacy will be like my situation now (got cards, but nowhere to play), but I don't think threatening boycotts and telling Wizards you have no intention of playing MTGO (might as well have a neon sign saying, "I am not a customer. Disregard everything I say!") is a good strategy for convincing them about the impending woes of paper.

Lastly, it's funny, in the realm of comic books, there has also been a lot of similar debate about paper vs. digital and you get the same arguments about how people like to go into a shop and browse and chat about comics as they shop, etc. They want to touch and feel their comics, just as so many here want to touch and re-arrange their cards, sleeve and desleeve, etc. I don't see the two formats as mutually exclusive, and that is one of the worst things about MTGO/paper is that there is an established – and increasingly so – mutual exclusivity that you are either a paper or online player. You play whichever you play for whichever reasons you choose to play it. Someone like LSV from Channel Fireball plays online a lot for extra practice, but obviously plays paper as well. Someone who works all week and only plays with buddies on the weekend or once a month at a big tournament obviously isn't too concerned with not getting in enough playtesting.

Bottom line I'm trying to say is I don't think MTGO should be outright demonized because those who play it obviously feel it provides them a valued service and talk of how people won't touch MTGO or how horrible it is doesn't really serve any purpose other than creating more Magic community fractures than mending them.

[Wyrath the Great]

My "letter":

"Dear Wizards of the Coast or rather mr./ms. random employee that gets to read the following,

I am writing you to inform you of my displeasure with your recent decisions regarding the Legacy format in particular. As I “only” play Magic on one of your bigger cash cows, MTGO, I am not hit directly by your silly stance regarding reprints of paper cards. I am offended by it still, though, and I think most people by now have realized that you are trying to force paper players out of every format bar Draft and Standard – the two formats that gives you, the company, the highest possible profits. Only on MTGO, where you get 100% of the profits thanks to the tickets system is every format “welcome” – as long as people have to spend astronomical amounts to get in to them (the formats that is).

Still, though I am not hit by “paper reprints” per se – or rather the lack of them – I am very much hit by the lack of online prints and reprints. Yes, you, the company, actually limit the amount of a virtual product, that should by all means be limitless. A virtual product that in the case of many of the older cards cannot even be redeemed (the normal excuse for keeping things “rare” and “collectible”). This stinks of a blatant disregard for your customers; customers that pay large sums for VIRTUAL CARDBOARD in this case. How many other companies can get a thousand dollars for the right to use 75 images online?

Seriously, think about how easy you have it as a company the next time you make another decision like this. Sure, I know that you don’t care by now - that much is clearly evident – but I’ll still try to appeal to you for what it’s worth. And yes, I am also aware that we are officially paying for an intellectual property, but in reality that’s just fodder for the masses and a most useless excuse. Most people realize by now (hopefully) that it is your twisted way to control formats – both in paper and online - but how horrible would it really be if Force of Will had been an uncommon on MTGO or if you reprinted the dual lands in paper? In the first case it would give people a chance to try out the older formats on a relatively “safe platform”, and in the second it would mean that Legacy (and Vintage) would be more easily accessible to new players resulting in the growth of both eternal formats.

It would also be nice if there were actually enough worthy cards in the Master’s Editions to make sure people buy enough packs, which would in turn lower the prices of cards like the aforementioned dual lands. Would that be so bad? Would it be so “unfun”, to quote the great MaRo, if regular people were actually able to pick up online playsets of the “rarer” cards? Perhaps, but that is hardly what drives your company, is it? No, by making cards impossible to get - or rather afford (even online), you help reinforce the silly notion of Magic cards being a collectible hobby that is actually worth something. And yes, you will have many collectors sitting happily on their 20+ Tarmogoyfs or Force of Wills, throwing praises at your great company for protecting their clever investment, which is sure to buy them a life-time supply of hamburgers when they grow old, but is that really the type of person that one should care about? I know that you don’t, but a lot of your customers still believe that you are protecting them from the horrors of their “valuable collections” suddenly dropping a few dollars (although that isn’t even a given at all) – another example of your dishonest nature.

So what’s really the point of this sorry mess? Well, I guess it is sort of me trying to make you, the company, understand that it’s people out here. It is people that make your hobby worthwhile – not the actual pieces of real or virtual cardboard. This is a community-driven game, and we, the players and collectors, deserve to be treated in a proper manner. If you want to screw us over then at least have the decency to be clear about it. All this covert shadow play that takes place more and more is very frustrating and leaves us grasping blindly in the dark for explanations.

Try to actually listen to the players for a change. For myself, as it’s probably dangerous to keep speaking on the behalf of others, I would love to get into Legacy on MTGO, but I simply can’t fork out the absurd prices for tournament rares, which has been stockpiled by “collectors” (read: people that take advantage of a player-run economy). I have already invested a couple of thousands dollars on MTGO, but I am starting to feel that this investment has been a bad one, and it certainly doesn’t help that you refuse to reprint “rare” online-only and non-redeemable cards to meet demands.

The long-term result of your policy is that you’ll certainly lose me as a customer. I will, again, not speak out for other players, but I certainly hope that they too will start to question your motives. Making money is what a company is all about, but this can be done while still upholding a certain integrity and respect for its customers.

Thanks in advance for reading.

Best regards,

A"

Sorry for my poor English, but I tried to express myself as well as I could (I'm from Denmark in case you were wondering). I sadly think it ended up being a bit rantish, but at least I tried to make my voice heard.

[Malchar]

Big whoop, they had a reserved list but reprinted cards from it anyway. A year down the road, they'll probably break this new rule too.

[MattH]

I think some of you are writing letters that are too long. Keep it short and to the point! IBA's letter was a good length. Wyrath's is a wall of text that is likely to be skipped over.

[SpeedOfDark]

I would much prefer if dual lands were not on the reserved list, because I feel that over the next 5-10 years it will change the access of Legacy to what could only be described as Vintage Lite.

However, I would also not mind if the entire reserved list were banned from legacy. This way, wotc would have some level of control over legacy pricing and availability, and be in a stronger position to stear the format for whatever the future might bring.

[Nidd]

Is it possible for those who do not have byes to the GP get new DCI numbers with names like "reprintduals now" or something of that realm. Then when they top 8 they will get that on the tournament coverage.
That's actually an awesome idea. I have no Rating to speak of and might as well get myself a new DCi number... But hey, chances of me Top 8ing a GP are kinda slim.

[Atwa]

That's actually an awesome idea. I have no Rating to speak of and might as well get myself a new DCi number... But hey, chances of me Top 8ing a GP are kinda slim.

Problem with this approach is that registering 2 different DCI numbers is a sure way to get you a banning from the DCI for a while, at least a disqualification at the GP.

[crow_mw]

So, did any of the people who sent Wizards a letter get any reply at all? If yes has it been anything more than 'thanks for your concern we do what we believe is best'?

[Cabal_chan]

So, did any of the people who sent Wizards a letter get any reply at all? If yes has it been anything more than 'thanks for your concern we do what we believe is best'?

I would send a reply, but it seems they disabled website registration the same day that they made this announcement. I have yet to receive the 'activation code/what not' e-mail from them.

Seeing as how they censored the one player at GP Madrid, I can't help but think they anticipated a large outcry, then pulled a 'teh sneaky' with their e-mail system.

Edit: I thought this was the Free World, not China. -.-

Editx2: Dear Wizards of the Coast,
Regarding your article "Revised Reprint Policy":

I am confused by the mixed signals coming from the company. GP Madrid (Legacy format) had a huge turnout, and I am delighted that Wizards is taking more of an interest in Legacy. However, the format has a limited supply of staples, such as dual lands, needed for competitive play. And the recent article on the reprint policy suggests that the company won't take any steps to address that?

I'm afraid that the rise on popularity will inflate card prices, putting already expensive and hard to find cards out of reach of new players, and slowly strangle the format.

It may be you think the solution is in moving Legacy to MTGO. I must respectfully disagree. The people I play with, and the people that want to move into Legacy, play because it's a friendlier, more casual environment. They play because of the in person social interaction, something that an internet connection cannot do justice.

[Atwa]

I would send a reply, but it seems they disabled website registration the same day that they made this announcement. I have yet to receive the 'activation code/what not' e-mail from them.

Seeing as how they censored the one player at GP Madrid, I can't help but think they anticipated a large outcry, then pulled a 'teh sneaky' with their e-mail system.

Edit: I thought this was the Free World, not China. -.-

Their webregistration have been down for some time now, but I remember some people posting the direct mail adresses from MaRo and ArFo in this thread. I am also inclined towards spamming the mail to almost every relevant mail adress I can find (Wizards, Hasbro, R&D, etc), but I don't think any will reply to be honest.

Wizards has been censoring dissident voices for quite some time now, no reason to be suprised at this point. Corporatism and communism aren't that far apart.

[MMogg]

Edit: I thought this was the Free World, not China. -.-

http://t1.gstatic.cn/images?q=tbn:qh0pNzevZcrQTM:

Seriously though, that corporations use PR and spin is new to you? Manipulating their website output to gain in PR is not surprising at all nor is it necessarily sinful. What's the difference between that and, say, SCG writers quoting SCG prices as market value prices for singles when everyone knows their prices are at least at the higher end of market values? I believe everyone tries to shape their own narratives, whether they are average individuals, politicians or corporations, everyone wants to control perception, but that isn't necessarily malevolent.

Edit: Ninjaed by Atwa... wtf, ninjaed twice in one day and both by Dutchmen! It must be a conspiracy.

[godryk]

You know? What surprises me the most is that, a few days ago, when reading threads like "Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard" (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?16162-Raise-raise-raise-The-price-of-cardboard), not only here on The Source, but on other sites too, I felt that, like half of players didn't want any reprints while the other half screamed for it. It was a controversial topic that raised very different opinions that didn't seem to get to a point of agreement. After this announcement was made, it seems that everybody is coming to the "reprint duals or Legacy dies" side...

[TheCramp]

I think we will find out the truth is something ugly like,

"if we provided players duels to play legacy, they will."

It's a more diverse format, with appeal to designers and competitors both. Defined decks to beat, and vast latitude to hate. The potential satisfaction of finding dampening matrix in the current extended meta, for example, is dwarfed by the range of hate one might discover in legacy. They know this. If they print the cards in any number, players might just, you know, start playing. Nothing is stopping event organizers holding legacy tournaments. If you could chose to participate in one or the other, what decision do you think most players would make if card availability was not an issue. It's not even a question. You have the Mike Floreses of the world who actually like standard for their own reasons, but most people (especially the silent majority) would not think twice. Legacy. Magic's business model, international appeal, and revenue stream all become jeopardized. (getting enough duels to Asia and Latin America in a way that maintains some parity between the metas is a real issue.) I bet they were not willing to take that gamble.

[wcm8]

What's stopping them from reprinting a bunch of staples in M11 and making Standard more like Legacy? Do they think the Standard scene can't handle cards that can actually win the game by turn 5? At one point standard had Necropotence in it, and competitive Magic did not die. Urza's block had some of the most ridiculous cards ever printed, and yet Standard dealt with it just fine. Maybe Legacy players would be more interested in Standard if the blocks were not constructed with suboptimal cards that catered to only like 4 or 5 archetypes.

[Atwa]

Urza's block had some of the most ridiculous cards ever printed, and yet Standard dealt with it just fine.
Yeah, because having the need for the only emergency banning in the history of the game and the biggest banned list in the history of Standard is a perfect examble of how fine Standard dealt with Urza's block cards.


Maybe Legacy players would be more interested in Standard if the blocks were not constructed with suboptimal cards that catered to only like 4 or 5 archetypes.
I know I (and a lot of people with me) play Legacy because we like to play with all the cards I've collected over the years, not just what inferiour cards and weak versions of older cards Wizards decides to trow at me, and tell me: "Buy this or you'll loste!".

I do care about meta diversity, however that is not the main reason I play Legacy. In fact, I think I'd quit the game (or at least would stop buying cards) if they nerfed Legacy (either direct or by making the format way too expensive), since I don't have the time (nor money) to keep up with fast rotating formats.

[hyperchord24]

Why sell off your collection now if it's "protected?" It's not as if people are going to stop playing Legacy right now.

[wcm8]

Yeah, because having the need for the only emergency banning in the history of the game and the biggest banned list in the history of Standard is a perfect examble of how fine Standard dealt with Urza's block cards.

Ok yeah, they had things like Replenish, Yawgmoth's Bargain, Academy Rector, Tolarian Academy, Memory Jar, etc. Barring notable exceptions that have become restricted in Vintage, the block was diverse and interesting. I'm not saying R&D has to fumble with making unbalanced cards, but they could reprint portions of Legacy DTB/established decks that more archetypes in standard could emerge (and Legacy players would have the majority of the deck's shell already.) Standard as it is now consists of relatively few archetypes.

edit: actually, Urza's block has less banned cards than Mirrodin.

[Tychoides]

Why sell off your collection now if it's "protected?" It's not as if people are going to stop playing Legacy right now.

The iron is hot right now with Legacy GPs and SCG 5K events. Once people realize Wizards doesn't care about the paper format any longer, demand is going to go down and prices will cool off.

Which, ironically, is exactly what the collectors who are happy about this don't want.

[Meister_Kai]

Ok yeah, they had things like Replenish, Yawgmoth's Bargain, Academy Rector, Tolarian Academy, Memory Jar, etc. Barring notable exceptions that have become restricted in Vintage, the block was diverse and interesting. I'm not saying R&D has to fumble with making unbalanced cards, but they could reprint portions of Legacy DTB/established decks that more archetypes in standard could emerge (and Legacy players would have the majority of the deck's shell already.) Standard as it is now consists of relatively few archetypes.

edit: actually, Urza's block has less banned cards than Mirrodin.

Just about everything about Urza's block was bad from a purely game-play point of view. The draft format was horrible, the standard format had combo decks that were just too good (the fact that it had actual good combo decks was more than enough).

How can you say cards like Necropentance weren't a problem? Are you daft or just a bad troll? Affinity was the worse thing to happen to Standard since, well, Urza block and you don't see a problem with making standard that way again? If it weren't for Jund standard would be a pretty healthy format right now believe it or not. If White-freaking-Weenie can still be a "force" in the metagame then any perceived problems couldn't be that severe.

[Atwa]

edit: actually, Urza's block has less banned cards than Mirrodin.

When comparing Block Urza's and Mirrodin, you are right.

I am talking about Type 2 (since we were talking about Standard) during Tempest/Urza's era.

Edit: Whatever Meister_Kai said.

[Wargoos]

Wasn't it like "the customer is king" (if we keep him busy he buys the crap I can produce for nothing and pays thousands)?
Now I feel that Wizards has made this out of the rule above "the customer is getting kicked in the balls whenever it's funny" (but he still will buy our crap or can gtfo).

[herbig]

The shadowy elites who hold sway over the secondary market are to blame. Wizards is just a front for the Illuminati. When will you people realize.

[Wargoos]

The shadowy elites who hold sway over the secondary market are to blame. Wizards is just a front for the Illuminati. When will you people realize.

But just how are they linked to the lizard people?!
You should sell your informations to D.Brown, so he can make a new thriller!

[Atwa]

The shadowy elites who hold sway over the secondary market are to blame. Wizards is just a front for the Illuminati. When will you people realize.

I wonder if Wizards took over Steve Jackson Games (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illuminati_%28game%29)........

[Moosedog]

Dear Wizards,

I have been playing magic for 8 years of which I played standard for the first 4. Then I took 2 years off and only started playing again because legacy existed as a format. If legacy dies then I stop playing magic. I will not play online. Please keep the format healthy, and if you are doing so then please explain how?

Regards,

[undone]

Wow they managed to f the reserved list up so bad that even someone like me (Who opposed destroying the list or mass reprints) is pissed off. No premium cards at all means that after X rounds of magic have been played with a card it will be unplayable (granted that is a very high number) but consider this. In 5/10 years since my guess would be 80+% of goyfs are played in decks and few are just sat on, how many rounds of play can a card endure? I have played only a hundred or so rounds with some cards and they already show white lines near the top center, so what after 300, 400, 500 matches they will just be heavy play? The whole point of foils to me was to add maximum number of copies to adjust for copies which were destroyed/played into nothingness.

Also by all accounts I agree. Wizards is actively trying to kill the format with high prices. The reason for this is that legacy had a much lower cost barrier than standard for a while (When you needed 4 force 4 mutavault and 4 wasteland for a real merfolk deck and everything else was 5< and in standard you had BSA and Jund) They HAD to adjust for that to keep their steady cash flow which to me sucks.

Makes me sad too because I really enjoyed the format. I estimate it will be 4 years before it reaches vintage price levels. That said I Dont think I Would ever sell my legacy staples now as they will only go up. I might stop playing it though :rolleyes:

[UrDraco]

Only a few hundred rounds and you have white lines near the center? Please for the love of god learn how to shuffle without damaging your cards.

[Cabal_chan]

Only a few hundred rounds and you have white lines near the center? Please for the love of god learn how to shuffle without damaging your cards.

Speaking of which, does anyone have a link to some card shuffling FAQ?

[jrsthethird]

Play with sleeves and don't riffle shuffle. If you get good enough sleeves you can slide one half into the other and it's almost the same as riffling.

[Finn]

Have any of you seen the latest news: apparently wotc has decided that Legacy is too successful and has decided to bring back the ante rule for all sanctioned Legacy tournaments. And sleaves are no longer legal. And all legacy players must withstand a good punch in the gut as they give their DCI number. But only for Legacy.
Woe is me. Oh, the humanity!

Btw C_c is still my hero.