[Deck] Legacy Paintspike

[Grumpollion]

Creatures
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Painter's Servant

Spells
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Crop Rotation
4 Dark Ritual
4 Brainspoil
4 Insidious Dreams
2 Reap
4 Soul Spike
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Necrologia

Artifacts
1 Grindstone

Lands
4 Bayou
4 Gilt-Leaf Palace
4 Reliquary Tower
4 Swamp
4 Twilight Mire


There are two ways to win with this deck. The first way is through the Painter's Servant/Grindstone combo. The second way is by killing your opponent using Soul Spikes and/or Tendrils of Agony. Try to play Necrologia as soon as possible, and use it to draw lots of cards. Significantly, this deck, unlike some others, does not need to win all in one turn. It also avoids using the expensive LED.

Card explanations:

Elvish Spirit Guide: Mana acceleration, but perhaps more importantly, allows you to play Crop Rotation off of a Necrologia when you don't have G available, so that you can put Reliquary Tower into play, so that you don't have to discard all of the cards that you drew off of Necrologia.

Painter's Servant: Part of the combo win condition. Also, when you name "black," it allows you to pitch any cards (even lands) to pay for Soul Spike, and makes Reap quite powerful.

Cabal Ritual: Mana acceleration.

Crop Rotation: See Elvish Spirit Guide above. Allows you to put Reliquary Tower into play at instant speed when you don't have it out already at the time that you play Necrologia.

Dark Ritual: Mana acceleration.

Brainspoil: Transmute it for Necrologia. Pitches to Soul Spike.

Insidious Dreams: Sets up your draws, and is very effective when you already have lots of cards in hand from Necrologia. Use it to put the Painter's Servant/Grindstone combo pieces on top of your library, or use it to put a bunch of Soul Spikes, mana acceleration, and Tendrils of Agony on top of your library. Pitches to Soul Spike.

Reap: When Painter's Servant is in play naming "black," this allows you to retrieve lots of cards from your graveyard at instant speed, assuming that your opponent has at least a few permanents in play. Use it to retrieve mana acceleration, Soul Spikes, Tendrils, a Necrologia, and another Reap, for example.

Soul Spike: Instant speed damage that gains you life. Easily played off of a Necrologia, which is likely to get you more than enough cards to pitch for its alternative cost (paying the CMC is not contemplated), especially when Painter's Servant is in play. Regains some of the life that you paid to Necrologia while killing your opponent (or, in a pinch, your opponent's creature).

Tendrils of Agony: Use it to kill your opponent after you play a bunch of mana acceleration and free Soul Spikes that you drew off of Necrologia. Regains some of the life that you paid to Necrologia. Unfortunately, can only be played during your main phase, but putting Reliquary Tower into play allows you to keep a large hand so that you can storm your opponent on your next turn.

Grindstone: Part of the combo win condition. Not very useful in multiples.

Necrologia: Draws lots of cards so that you can draw your combo pieces and/or Soul Spike and Tendrils your opponent.

Reliquary Tower: Allows you to keep the cards that you drew with Necrologia. See Elvish Spirit Guide and Crop Rotation.

Gilt-Leaf Palace: Gives you black or green mana without sacrificing your precious life. Doesn't come into play tapped as long as you have an ESG in hand when you play it.


Comments, suggestions, and criticisms are welcome.

[Vacrix]

You left Necrologia out of your list.

I don't see how you can win with Soul Spikes. Even if you play all 4 you are only dealing 16 damage it just seems unnecessary when you can just run IGG loops via Infernal Tutor + LED. Whats your avg win?

Your list is fundamentally several turns slower than Belcher or SI, and it plays 0 protection. I don't see a reason to play your list over better glass houses in the Established Decks forum.

The best Necrologia list I can think of that is 'close' to competitive is the following:

Necro 2.0 (from the Stormboards):
// Lands
4 [8E] City of Brass
4 [WL] Gemstone Mine

// Creatures
4 [AL] Elvish Spirit Guide
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide

// Spells
4 [MI] Mystical Tutor
4 [FUT] Edge of Autumn
4 [US] Tolarian Winds
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [FUT] Pact of Negation
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [EX] Necrologia
2 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
2 [GP] Quicken
4 [SHM] Manamorphose
4 [US] Dark Ritual
4 [TO] Cabal Ritual

Its still far from playable, but its the same concept as yours, just more fine tuned. I'm sure you can figure out how it works. It plays x8 protection in the MD, but the few of us who developed it have determined that it just falls short of competitive because its too inconsistent.

[Grumpollion]

The main problem I see with the list you posted is that it seems to need to win all in one turn, and is pretty much game over if it fizzles. You are right about the list you posted being inconsistent. It's fast (maybe, if you're lucky enough to find your Necrologia), but it doesn't seem like it is usually successful when going off. Also, the list you posted seems very bad at finding Necrologia in the first place (making the deck slow). Tolarian Winds seems like an extraordinarily bad way of finding Necrologia, and seems like it can lose you the cards that you need to win.

The list I posted, on the other hand, can recur Soul Spikes, Necrologias, and Tendrils using Reap, winning over the course of multiple turns. Also, when you get the nut draw, you can use Insidious Dreams to set up and win with the Painter's/Grindstone combo quite quickly.

Frankly, I think my list is superior to the one you posted by far.

[flrn]

I really can't see, why your list should be superior to his. Zoo can consistently kill you in turn four. I wonder how you will set up anything with your list until then. A well placed counter fucks up your whole game plan, and you have no protection at all. Every Legacy deck plays creature removal. So your Painter won't be able to stick to the board for long. Every legacy deck has some sort of hate against artifacts in the sideboard.

And even if you want to win via Soul Spike and Reap. You need first of all a lot of time to do so and secondly a lot of cards.

Btw: Play some Fetchlands instead of Gilt-Leaf Palace and Twilight Mire. Verdant Catacombs, Bloodstained Mire, Misty Rainforest, Polluted Delta, Marsh Flats, Windswept Heath, Wooded Foothills are all superior.

[Grumpollion]

3 Soul Spike + 1 Tendrils = win. Technically, I don't even need to recur, although it's nice to have the option.

The problem with fetchlands is the life loss, which is bad in conjunction with Necrologia. It is a possibility, though, if you're willing to take the risk.

How about this:

For protection, I can go -4 ESG, -2 Cabal Ritual, -2 Crop Rotation, +4 Duress, +4 Hymn to Tourach. Better?

Against Zoo, I'd go +4 Engineered Explosives instead of +4 Duress. Maybe +4 Perish instead of +4 Hymn. I could additionally take out the last 2 Cabal Rituals and 2 Crop Rotations and go +4 Engineered Plague.

[Vacrix]

The main problem I see with the list you posted is that it seems to need to win all in one turn, and is pretty much game over if it fizzles. You are right about the list you posted being inconsistent. It's fast (maybe, if you're lucky enough to find your Necrologia), but it doesn't seem like it is usually successful when going off. Also, the list you posted seems very bad at finding Necrologia in the first place (making the deck slow). Tolarian Winds seems like an extraordinarily bad way of finding Necrologia, and seems like it can lose you the cards that you need to win.

The list I posted, on the other hand, can recur Soul Spikes, Necrologias, and Tendrils using Reap, winning over the course of multiple turns. Also, when you get the nut draw, you can use Insidious Dreams to set up and win with the Painter's/Grindstone combo quite quickly.

Frankly, I think my list is superior to the one you posted by far.

When 'my' list goes off with Necrologia, it wins that turn. It rarely fizzes, and the list plays x8 protection. IF you can find Necrologia, which you can't always (hence the inconsistency) the deck wins that turn. Your deck is a combo deck that wins over the course of several turns. While you are setting up, your are going to die to any decent deck in legacy either through disruption or a decent clock. Tolarian Winds is played post-Necrologia so that you can make use of all the lands you might draw.

When you get the nuts draw, you can't even win that turn. Thats significantly worse than Belcher for a 0 protection list. You still haven't offered any justification for a 0 protection list. SI and Belcher leave your list dead in the water as far as goldfish speed is concerned. The reason to play Necro over SI or Belcher, or any other combo deck for that matter? It plays Force and enough blue to support Force. Force on 3sphere is a great reason to play this deck, if it were more consistent that is. Its a few cards short of being optimized and therefore viable. Its also plays x4 PoN which means x8 protection to resolve your Necrologia, unlike your list.

Flrn echoes my point. Aggro will destroy you, combo will combo out faster, and control will just counter your shit. If you are going to play a 0 protection list it better be damn fast. SI pushes turn 1 wins to upwards of 60% with even the old lists. Why should anyone play YOUR 0 protection list? Flrn is right. Play fetchlands to color fix, or go gold to avoid life loss like my list does.

By the way, I was trying to be nice. Clearly you're a nub. Your list couldn't beat 4Valakut56Mountain.dec in Legacy. Your list is better..'by FAR'? Really? Do you play Legacy or pretend to? Aggro has a 3-4 turn clock, combo has a 1-3 turn clock, and control plays these lovely things called counterspells. Look into Battle of Wits.dec. I hear its a great combo deck that wins on turn 9. You'll love it.

EDIT:

Against Zoo, I'd go +4 Engineered Explosives instead of +4 Duress. Maybe +4 Perish instead of +4 Hymn. I could additionally take out the last 2 Cabal Rituals and 2 Crop Rotations and go +4 Engineered Plague.
LOL.. you are proposing to board something in.. against aggro.. while playing combo? Seriously? Oh this is great. Engineered Plague naming Cats!! GENIUS!

[Grumpollion]

Thanks for the constructive criticism. I'll ignore the ad hominem.

Like I said, for protection, I can take out ESG and some combination of Cabal Ritual and Crop Rotation and add +4 Duress and +4 Hymn to Tourach.

Is there something wrong with my board plan against Zoo? You mocked it, but I didn't see any substance to your objection other than to poke fun at me. If you tell me why that plan won't work, then maybe I can think of a better one.

[Vacrix]

Then you are playing black aggro with a combo win. Its not a terrible idea, but going for the storm win is serious fail if you are dropping acceleration. x6 Rituals is not enough. When are you expecting to win? The questions I posed you should really be answering if you expect anyone to actually offer you any help with this. I don't see you getting consistent wins after Necrologia, especially if you expect to play Painters Servant + Grindstone, with only 1 Grindstone.. in a meta full of Pridgemages and any sort of creature removal.

Wikipedia disagrees with your ad hominem comment:
"In reality, ad hominem is unrelated to sarcasm or personal abuse. Argumentum ad hominem is the logical fallacy of attempting to undermine a speaker's argument by attacking the speaker instead of addressing the argument. The mere presence of a personal attack does not indicate ad hominem: the attack must be used for the purpose of undermining the argument, or otherwise the logical fallacy isn't there. It is not a logical fallacy to attack someone; the fallacy comes from assuming that a personal attack is also necessarily an attack on that person's arguments."

Its easy to hide behind big words instead of actually attacking my counterargument isnt it..

I like the idea of running Duress and Hymn in some sort of combo deck, but your list has so many dead cards if you aren't going off with Necrologia. Crop Rotation, Tendrils, and Soul Spike are all dead pre-combo, while Brainspoil requires you to make it to turn 3 to fetch Necrologia, while Insidious Dreams is hideously slow.

EDIT:
Also, dropping ESG cuts you off from instant speed green mana post-Necrologia, which means you aren't always going to have the G for Crop Rotation.

[Grumpollion]

My, you are hostile for no apparent reason. So maybe I should technically have said "insults" instead of "ad hominem." Miss anger management classes much? Are you this rude in person also, or do you just reserve your charm for the message boards?

In any case, perhaps you'll find this revised list better than the original. At least, it's closer to the one that you posted:

Creatures
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Painter's Servant

Spells
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Crop Rotation
4 Dark Ritual
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Soul Spike
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Necrologia
4 Duress

Artifacts
4 Grindstone
3 Lotus Petal

Lands
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Reliquary Tower



Better?

[Vacrix]

You can view my criticism as honesty or as insulting. I think I'm being honest with you.
Excuse me if I sounded a little pissed. You straight up dismissed my list when I took time out of my day to help you out. I'd be hella pissed at you in real life too if you used a word like superior when your original list was seriously as janky as it was. I've actually tested my list and its quite good. The only problem is getting Necrologia into your hand. Its a just a few cards shy of being Tier 2.


Frankly, I think my list is superior to the one you posted by far.

That set me off. I actually put time into my list along with some other sourcers to try to optimize a list that utilized Necrologia. You argued that I win all in one turn and you can win over several turns. The point is that you don't even sound serious. Its almost mocking to say a deck is bad because it wins all in one turn. Thats a handful of decks in Legacy that kick ass. I just think you don't know what you're talking about. Demonstrated by the following:


Is there something wrong with my board plan against Zoo? You mocked it, but I didn't see any substance to your objection other than to poke fun at me. If you tell me why that plan won't work, then maybe I can think of a better one.

You are combo. You should be winning the aggro matchup. You should be boarding against your weak matchups, Stax and control. I think its pretty self evident that Engineered Plague is horrid in the Zoo matchup; EE and Perish are good in that matchup, but you should be winning with speed; you are combo. Otherwise you need to reevaluate why you are playing combo in the first place:
- Why play this combo over other combos in Legacy?
- Whats your avg kill?

Also, test your list. Speculation only gets you so far. Test it on workstation or something that way you can find out what works and what doesn't. Your list right now looks much better.

[flrn]

In any case, perhaps you'll find this revised list better than the original. At least, it's closer to the one that you posted:

Creatures
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Painter's Servant

Spells
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Crop Rotation
4 Dark Ritual
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Soul Spike
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Necrologia
4 Duress

Artifacts
4 Grindstone
3 Lotus Petal

Lands
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Reliquary Tower

Looks better than the first one. I personally think Hymn to Tourach is a not a good protection card. If you wanna protect your combo, you definitly wanna take the hate out of the opponents hand. Thoughtseize is a better choice, in addition to Duress. But that's my opinion, you should test what work's best for you. Hymn to Tourach takes 2 cards for 1 card. That's a strong play, but it probably wont take the cards, it needs to take, so you can combo out.



You are combo. You should be winning the aggro matchup. You should be boarding against your weak matchups, Stax and control. I think its pretty self evident that Engineered Plague is horrid in the Zoo matchup; EE and Perish are good in that matchup, but you should be winning with speed; you are combo. Otherwise you need to reevaluate why you are playing combo in the first place:
- Why play this combo over other combos in Legacy?
- Whats your avg kill?

He is right. Those are important questions. If you don't have a good aggro matchup with a combo deck, you shouldn't play combo. I think going for an Instant Win after Necrologia is a good idea. Also you should ask yourself, what do you do against common hate, opponents will bring in postboard. Gaddock Teeg is a very common choice among aggro decks to fight combo. You need to include cards in your board, to be able to answer those hate cards.

[xTrainx]

It's definately interesting. The reason that your Zoo board was mocked was that, if you're playing against Zoo, you shouldn't need to sideboard in board removal - you should have already won. Basically, you may want to look into some spot removal to get rid of random Teegs or Canonistts.

Even with the life loss, Hymn to Tourach is a worse 'protection card' than Thoughtsieze. It is a better 'disruption card' but Thoughtsieze allows you to see their hand, choose and kill their counterspell, instead of not seeing and hoping to take their counterspell. Thoughtsieze can also work well against Combo, taking away their piece to 'go off'.

You may want to look into some form of draw. In my bad Ad Nauseam I play Chromatic Star(no Sensei's, which is the better card), so that I can pull up the card that I Mystical'd for during the turn that I am going off.

Winning over several turns does not make your deck 'better'. On the contrary, it will make your deck slower, and more open to counterhate that can be drawn. For example, you Necrologia after knowing you took out their counterspell. Pull up cards, drop 'em down to low. Then, how angry would you be if you needed to just draw that one black card to cast Soul Spike, so you waited a turn. They happened to draw a counterspell and completely screwed you over.

[Grumpollion]

Now that I've thought about it more, I think that the deck should go in a different direction. I like the Soul Spikes, but I think that Tendrils and Painter and Grindstone and Reliquary Tower are wrong for the deck. I don't want to have to wait a turn to play my kill.

If I were to continue in the Painter direction, I'd forget about the Reliquary Tower and Tendrils, and try to use Crop Rotation and Winding Canyons to put Painter into play instantly after Necrologia (in case one was not already in play), and then infinitely recur Reaps, Manamorphoses, and other instant acceleration until I played my instant-speed kill (probably a couple of recurred Urza's Rages, kicked). But, as others have said, Painter is fragile because he's a creature (and an artifact too).

Instead, alongside the Soul Spikes, I'd like to add 1 Grove of the Burnwillows and 4 Needlebite Traps. Crop Rotation can put the Grove into play, Grove can give my opponent 1 life, and then I can deal 5 damage to my opponent (and gain 5 life) for each Trap. This, in combination with the Soul Spikes, should be enough. All of it can be played after being drawn the same turn from Necrologia. More than one Necrologia could be played in the same turn if needed, given the life gain from the Soul Spikes and the Needlebite Traps. Perhaps Dash Hopes could be effectively used as protection in such a deck.

I'll need to think about what the exact list should look like. And I don't know if there's any good reason to play it over existing combo decks.

[Kangaxx]

I hate to burst your bubble but Tendrils isn't an instant. It's a cool idea, but it needs alot of work to become viable.

EDIT: I see you run that janky tower card that I had no idea what it did. I had to look it up.

If you want to win via Spikes and get to only 16 with it, I would suggest splashing red for Lightning Storm. You should have enough excess land after drawing 19 cards. You can also splash Simian Spirit Guide in order to cast it.

Firestorm Might also work if your opponent happens to run creatures. I know Belcher doesn't want to see this card against you.

[Grumpollion]

Lightning Storm is good.