Wizards, here is how you can make the legacy community not be mad at you. [Archive]

Clark Kant

03-20-2010, 03:58 PM

Clearly, the legacy community didn't communicate what it wanted before this announcement was made.

The damage is already done. But let's fix that in the future. Could you guys email wizards (and post on other magic forums) suggestions such as these.

I already have emailed them my thoughts and suggestions. I want others to send them their ideas whether they are very similar to mine, or completely different. The fact is, Wizards needs to hear more from us. If we had been communicating with them more, the past few days may have looked completely different. The Reprint Annoucement may have been a welcome change for near everyone.

aaron.forsythe@wizards.com

mark.rosewater@wizards.com

Reprinting cards wouldn't cause them to lose value for atleast two years if they were reprinted as rares/mythic rares and were standard legal for two years. For those two years that they are standard legal, they would see tons of play and would be sought after as a result. That gives you plenty of time to offload valuable cards, and rebuy them cheaper two years later if you care that much. So if the policy was done away with so that cards could reprinted as standard legal, collectors would have been happier than they are about stuff like FTV and Judge's Foil reprints.

Everyone here understands that the continued growth of legacy depends on the format remaining accessible. It's prices have already spiked to near inaccessibility. So the issue needs to be addressed asap. And the reprint announcement strikes a blow to that.

But all is not lost. There are a huge number of viable legacy strategies that require no expensive cards other than the dual lands and fetchlands. The enemy fetches help already, and reprinting the original fetches, and the enemy fetches one more time in the next few years would also help a great deal.

Wizards, if you do some things that help legacy continue to grow and thrive, the community will appreciate that greatly. Here are my suggestions...

1.) Print good dual lands that both work with fetchlands and are very close to as good as the original dual lands.

You've been printing dual lands for standard for years. But simply put, if the duals can't be fetched out, they won't see play in legacy. Fetchlands offer so many useful functions that they will be played in any deck that splashes. So futures duals you print need to be fetchable by fetchlands

The Ravinca duals are near unplayable because giving up 3 life to fetch your dual lands is extremely painful. If it was only costed you two life total to fetch them, then there would be minimal draw back to playing them over the original duals. So if nothing else, please print ravinica duals that only cost you one life when they come into play, rather than two.

I'm sure there are several ways Wizards could print dual lands that can be fetched with fetchlands, that are extremely close in powerlevel to the originals.

The original duals can still be absolutely superior. But the disadvantage should be extremely minor. Lighting Bolting yourself like the Ravnica Duals make you do is not minor enough.

2.) Reprint those vitally important legacy cards that can be reprinted.

You will get legacy players buying more packs and playing more standard.

Collectors won't be mad because the cards won't lose value especially if they are reprinted as rares. The cards will see play in standard. And after two years, when they rotate out, the price will fall. But that gives collectors PLENTY of time to unload their cards should they be worried about the price.

As long as you make the reprint legal in standard, collectors know that the card will retain close to it's original price for atleast two years. If they care, they will sell the card off before it rotates out. If they don't, they will hang on to it.

This is the reason why NO one was complaining when you reprinted Psionic Blast. It was a great, valuable and rare card. But when it was standard legal, it retained close to it's original price giving collectors lots of time to unload it.

Reprint both the original fetchlands, and the enemy fetchlands atleast one more time.

And especially do this for cards that casual players really like. Reprint Entomb (perhaps as a mythic rare) before it's prices on ebay crosses the $100 a playset threshold on ebay. It will still remain a $90+ card the whole time it's legal in standard. But once it rotates out, it will finally become accessible.

Likewise, reprint Goyf as a mythic rare, it's price won't drop much if at all for two years, even if it were reprinted.

Reprint Force of Will and Wasteland as rares. It won't effect the price much since both were uncommons originally, and it would see a lot of play in standard. But it will keep the price of it stable for two years, rather than have it continue to spike with no end in sight. And eventually, when it rotates out, it will be a cheap card to acquire.

My rule of thumb if you want to keep the prices near identical to what they are currently for two years, even after the reprint...

Anything that costs around $60 per playset on ebay could be reprinted as a rare.

Anything that costs over a $100 per playset on ebay could be reprinted as a mythic rare.

3.) Print more hate for nonbasics (and fetchlands).

Blood Moon, Price of Progress and Stifle, Back to Basics are great examples. But that's all that exist and are playable, and they only exist for blue and red. The other three colors also need similar cards that give you some advantage in playing a monocolored decks. It doesn't have to be enchantments and instants. It can play up that particular color's theme. In white, you have tried this with Aven Mindcensor. Aven Mindcensor is close to playable, but just not quite good enough.

I am sure there are better things you can do to help monogreen and monoblack decks hate on nonbasics and fetchlands as well.

It's psychological. If players have atleast some advantage they gain by not splashing, they will be more happy about their monocolored deck. If players have no reason at all not to splash, they will be pissed off that such a deck would cost them several hundreds of dollars to build.

4.) Print more cards that minimize the need for splashing as well.

Every one splashes blue. And they do it for two reasons.

Answers to generic problem cards (countermagic)

Consistency (Brainstorm, Careful Study, Ponder etc)

Wizards should find innovative ways to give the other colors access to these functions. Black has discard so it's not completely impotent in addressing opponent's hate. But the other three colors are kind of screwed. Though it does kind of suck that all the decent black tutors that help the deck improve it's consistency are banned.

Everyone splashes green for one reason.

Goyf.

Since Wizards wont' be banning goyf, they need to find innovative ways to make the card less potent. And they need to do it on cards that a player actually would want to play.

Jotun Grunt is a great example on how to do this. It's nearly as aggressive on it's own, and has the bonus of hating graveyard decks and Goyf in particular.

But again, why only give white these alternatives? Black, Green and Blue should have ways to nullify Goyf in cards that actually serve the color's functions (ie. either packed on a creature, or on a counterspell/bounce spell, or removal (kill a creature, empty a players yard).

Everyone splashes white for one reason.

Swords to Plowshares (and Path)

Given just how absurdly popular and prevalent creatures have become in the second half of magic's history, would it be the worst thing in the world to innovatively give the other colors access to efficent creature removal. This doesn't have to hurt the color pie.

Black atleast has some removal, but even then, all of it's removal is over costed (or has massive drawbacks). Would it be the worst thing in the world if a Smother equivalent was printed as a 1cc card?

Blue has bounce and stuff like Sower of Temptation, so it's actually pretty well off.

Red has the opposite problem. It's removal is both low cc and versatile (Lightning Bolt). But it has absolutely no way to answer bigger creatures.

And Green is completely screwed.

5. Print and unban cards to help legacy decks that are on the cusp of viability but not quite there.

Here are some examples.

Unban Grim Monolith, Mind Twist, Land Tax (and a few others). Workshop aggro, MBC, and Quinn will get a little bit more viable. While you're at it, print some not quite so absurdly expensive variant of Moat and Grindstone. Or hell, just reprint Moat and Grindstone as mythic rares.

Print some decent cards at 2R and 3R so that Dragon Stompy is a viable deck. How about something like...

2R Sorcery

Deal 5 damage to target creature or player.

That would both help Dragon Stompy become viable and would give Red a way to deal with slightly bigger creatures like Goyf and Tombstalker. It would even help Burn and Sligh become more viable because it's spells wouldn't all have to be supervulnerable to Chalice of the Void.

This is tough to do, but it's well worth it. You will have to check to see what cards and functions legacy players want to make their pet decks closer to viable. But doing so would greatly excite the community and build a lot of good will that you DO care about the eternal formats.

TommyTopdecker

03-20-2010, 04:05 PM

Nihil Credo

03-20-2010, 04:13 PM

Could you guys email wizards (and post on other magic forums) suggestions such as these.

I fail to see why you would ask someone else to do it for you.

majikal

03-20-2010, 04:30 PM

I fail to see why you would ask someone else to do it for you.
I think he means in addition to the suggestions he undoubtedly has sent already.

TooCloseToTheSun

03-20-2010, 04:35 PM

Could you guys email wizards (and post on other magic forums) suggestions such as these.

NO!

The reprint policy is there for a reason. Without it no sane person would buy legacy staples because they could end up losing a lot of money if wizards decided to reprint what you just bought. Also mass reprints would piss off dealers which is the main reason for this decision. You can't just start playing legacy and expect everything to be easily available. I didn't just get my collection it took time and money. The best part of legacy is you don't need > $500 decks to be competitive. You should all stop whining and start working so you can buy more cards.

Clark Kant

03-20-2010, 04:40 PM

Most of us have all the main cards. Look at my forum history. I have all the duals and staples and 14 different decks built. We want the format to be accessible to new players. That's why we're upset with the constant surging of prices. We want prices to be stable while more and more players enter the format so that the barrier of entry is not too high. That's impossible without reprinting cards.

And reprinting cards wouldn't cause them to lose value for atleast two years if they were reprinted as rares/mythic rares and were standard legal for two years. For those two years that they are standard legal, they would see tons of play and would be sought after as a result. That gives you plenty of time to offload valuable cards, and rebuy them cheaper two years later if you care that much.

I fail to see why you would ask someone else to do it for you.I already have emailed them my thoughts and suggestions.

I want others to send them their ideas whether they are very similar to mine, or completely different.

The fact is, Wizards needs to here more from us. If we had been communicating with them more, the past few days may have looked completely different.

The Reprint Annoucement may have been a welcome change. And the Unban announcement may have opened up a few more cards as well.

pi4meterftw

03-20-2010, 04:42 PM

I fail to see why you would ask someone else to do it for you.

Nihil, I know you don't live on American soil, but I do, and if you did you would know that Americans have a retarded tendency to protest even the most trivial of things. (I'm assuming the OP is American since only Americans would complain about something like this and then on top of that request that other people complain.) If you take one step onto an American university campus, you'll see idiots yelling because they're "discontent" even though Americans have it the best, or nearly (tied with other developed nations.) Also, things happen like:

Your dog made too much noise at night? BAM civil lawsuit.

I'm sure you have some protests in Italy, but in America it's made into an art form. We even have a name for it: civil disobedience. (See, notice we even try to make it sound as if disobedience could ever be civil.)

So Clark Kant was asking other people to do it for him not because he's incredibly lazy as heck, but rather because he's just being the typical loud-mouthed protestor. (American or not, this is the case. It's just we have way too many.) If Clark Kant wasn't interested in inciting an insurrection of sorts against WOTC, then he would just write them an email himself.

Magic is a good game, and it's balanced. The barrier to entry is a bit high for Legacy, but it doesn't matter. In fact, if the trend continues, it means that when you start the game and quit, you will actually mitigate your losses further because the value of your cards will have increased. The only reason this might hurt you is if you don't have the money to put up front for entering the format, and in that case, there's t2, ext, etc.

"BUT PI4METERFTW, THEN I HAVE TO KEEP UP WITH THE TIMES. I'D HAVE TO BUY NEW CARDS LOLOLOLOL!"

Well yeah, Wizards is a company. It tries to make money. Wizards only cares how much we like their games to the extent that it maximizes their profit, and it's a mere coincidence of how Market Economy works that this means most of the time they have to respect our interests. It's not as if we're entitled cosmically or whatever to have them cater to our needs.

Which is why I don't get why people feel entitled to complaining. You get what wizards gives you, and if you don't like it, nobody is forcing you to play. But WOTC just does whatever makes them the most money, and maybe that's like immoral, but you can't do anything about it, so just be quiet and play.

sigfig8

03-20-2010, 04:44 PM

I think the solution to the dual land problem is to print lands that aren't strictly worse than the original duals. How about this one:

Taiga Uppercut
Forest Mountain
Taiga Uppercut comes into play tapped unless you pay four life. When Taiga Uppercut comes into play, gain two life.

or this one:

Taiga Woods
Forest Mountain
Taiga Uppercut comes into play tapped unless you pay two life. Sacrifice Taiga Woods: Add G or R to your mana pool.

The nice thing about Magic is that there are tons of interactions to work with! So printing new dual lands that are only 0.0001% less good is waaaay easy. Consider these options:

New UB land
Legendary Land - Island Swamp
As long as there are exactly 2 "New UB land" cards on the battlefield, the legend rule doesn't apply.

New UB land 2
Island Swamp
New UB land 2 comes into play tapped unless you have target opponent gain 1 life.

New UB land 3
Island Swamp
When New UB land 3 enters the battlefield, target opponent may look at the top card of any library.

New UB land 4
Island Swamp
When New UB land 4 enters the battlefield, target creature of opponent's choice gains banding permanently.

The first one is harsh, but the other 3 are so small that they would certainly see plenty of legacy play. Net, I'm not yet too concerned about the new reserve list changes because there are still a ton of outs. If Wizards came out and said "no dual land look-a-likes will ever be printed again" then I'd be as upset as everyone else.

lordofthepit

03-20-2010, 04:55 PM

Taiga Woods
Forest Mountain
Taiga Uppercut comes into play tapped unless you pay two life. Sacrifice Taiga Woods: Add G or R to your mana pool.

IMO, this is better than the original duals.

Julian23

03-20-2010, 04:58 PM

This would be soooo much better, turning each Fetchland into a small Ritual.

Cabal_chan

03-20-2010, 05:02 PM

It's funny how some people seem to be ok with high prices strangling the format and keeping fresh blood from getting in.

Clark Kant

03-20-2010, 05:04 PM

TROLLING

Yes, because clearly, I'm the only one that thought this reprint announcement is a horrible thing for legacy's future.

Does this thread not exist in the world you live in...

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?16916-Revised-Reprint-Policy

Julian23

03-20-2010, 05:08 PM

It's funny how some people seem to be ok with high prices strangling the format and keeping fresh blood from getting in.

It's called short sighted capitalism.

the Thin White Duke

03-20-2010, 05:09 PM

I hate to be a negative nancy here, but what's the point? Send some letters to Wizards, but don't get your , or anyone's hopes up. I don't think you have to complain to people like MaRo or Forsythe, they know we're out here. They have their hands tied but their bosses and by the nature of the business itself. It is so much easier for Wizards to make money on T2 than established Eternal formats driven by the secondary market.
Bottom line is that I think people should spend more time and effort into think of ways to keep the format alive independent of Wizards. Don't complain to them, think of ways that the community and stores can maintain interest with what we have.

Clark Kant

03-20-2010, 05:12 PM

It's called short sighted capitalism.

Also known as the fuel that drives every bubble in existance until it collapses.

Homeowners (and banks) were perfectly happy about the ever increasing price of real estate right up till about one second after the prices became untenable and the market ate itself too.

Hell, Vintage was a thriving, growing format before the prices became untenable too. And the source equivalent for Vintage (themanadrain) was packed with activity. Now it's a ghost town over there.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

03-20-2010, 05:25 PM

Dear Wizards: Clark Cant in no way represents me. Just get rid of the reserve list.

NO!

The reprint policy is there for a reason. Without it no sane person would buy legacy staples because they could end up losing a lot of money if wizards decided to reprint what you just bought. Also mass reprints would piss off dealers which is the main reason for this decision. You can't just start playing legacy and expect everything to be easily available. I didn't just get my collection it took time and money. The best part of legacy is you don't need > $500 decks to be competitive. You should all stop whining and start working so you can buy more cards.

The dealers and players all favor reprints. And most Legacy staples- Force, Goyfs, LftL, EE, StP, Confidants, Tops, Wraths, Damnations, Wishes, Ad Nauseam, Fetchlands, Wasteland, Entomb, etc., etc..- aren't protected by the reserve list.

And frankly few people are even talking of mass reprints. People mainly want Wizards to release promotional dual lands in some form to keep the format limber. Ignoring your irrational decision to hate on poorer players, which is dumb, and your assumption that people who have invested years of their life into the format are whining just because they don't have the cards, which is also dumb, nothing can fix the problem of short supply other than more supply. Price doesn't rise for no reason.

Nihil, I know you don't live on American soil, but I do, and if you did you would know that Americans have a retarded tendency to protest even the most trivial of things. (I'm assuming the OP is American since only Americans would complain about something like this and then on top of that request that other people complain.) If you take one step onto an American university campus, you'll see idiots yelling because they're "discontent" even though Americans have it the best, or nearly (tied with other developed nations.) Also, things happen like:

Your dog made too much noise at night? BAM civil lawsuit.

I'm sure you have some protests in Italy, but in America it's made into an art form. We even have a name for it: civil disobedience. (See, notice we even try to make it sound as if disobedience could ever be civil.)

So Clark Kant was asking other people to do it for him not because he's incredibly lazy as heck, but rather because he's just being the typical loud-mouthed protestor. (American or not, this is the case. It's just we have way too many.) If Clark Kant wasn't interested in inciting an insurrection of sorts against WOTC, then he would just write them an email himself.

If we ignore things like the Cedar revolution, the rainbow coalition of revolutions in places like Georgia, Iran and Ukraine, the strikes that are crippling Greece right now and have crippled France, Thais pouring blood in the streets in protest, minorities in China rioting for autonomy while Hong Kong protest for democracy and workers protest in Beijing for protection, Muslim countries from Pakistan to Morroco racked by marches for (and against) Sharia law, calls for resignations and accusations of corruption that draw tens of thousands of protectors in Guatemala and Honduras and Mexico and Venezuela, mass calls for socialism in those Latin American countries that aren't already trending that way, mass calls against socialism in those countries that are, nationalist riots in India and anarchist demonstrations in Copenhagen, then sure, I might have difficulty of thinking of counter-examples to this claim off the top of my head from just the past few years.

I can tell you're American because you obviously have no idea what's going on in the rest of the world.

The barrier to entry is a bit high for Legacy, but it doesn't matter.

This statement violates every known principle of logic and economics.

In fact, if the trend continues, it means that when you start the game and quit, you will actually mitigate your losses further because the value of your cards will have increased. The only reason this might hurt you is if you don't have the money to put up front for entering the format, and in that case, there's t2, ext, etc.

So why not play Vintage? Oh, right, it's not actually a good investment because the prices have stagnated because no one plays it anymore because the cost of entry is so prohibitive.

Well, fuck it man, why learn from history?

Well yeah, Wizards is a company. It tries to make money. Wizards only cares how much we like their games to the extent that it maximizes their profit, and it's a mere coincidence of how Market Economy works that this means most of the time they have to respect our interests. It's not as if we're entitled cosmically or whatever to have them cater to our needs.

Which is why I don't get why people feel entitled to complaining. You get what wizards gives you, and if you don't like it, nobody is forcing you to play. But WOTC just does whatever makes them the most money, and maybe that's like immoral, but you can't do anything about it, so just be quiet and play.

Because supporting Legacy, unlike maintaining the reserved list, actually helps Wizards make money. It means card have actual value in the long term- not just because market forces can continue to increase their price, which is always a spotty bet, but because they can actually be played, which is what most people who play Magic think of when they think of their cards maintaining value.

Nessaja

03-20-2010, 05:43 PM

I can tell you're American because you obviously have no idea what's going on in the rest of the world.

That just made me laugh, a bit harsh but.. usually a decent indication.

Angelfire

03-20-2010, 06:02 PM

IMO, this is better than the original duals.

Yeah, if they printed this every Belcher player would simultaneously cream their pants.

A few ideas and note these don't necessarily need to be basic land types for fetching, Kird Ape etc...

New Dual Land - An alternative painland, would also make mill slightly more viable.
Swamp Mountain
Whenever <this> becomes tapped, exile the top four cards of your library.

New Dual Land 2 - Kind of like a fetch land.
Mountain Forest
As <this> enters the battlefield choose Red or Green. <This> can only produce the chosen color.

New Dual Land 3 - Encourages multicolor deck building without allowing for these 3-5 color monstrosities. My favorite option.
Forest Plains
Mana can only be used to play Green, White or Colorless spells and abilities.

New Dual Land 4
Plains Island
Don't feel like formatting this ability. Basically cannot produce the same color twice in a row.

New Dual Land 5
Island Swamp
Enters the battlefield tapped unless you control the same or less lands than your opponent.

sco0ter

03-20-2010, 06:18 PM

NO!

The reprint policy is there for a reason. Without it no sane person would buy legacy staples because they could end up losing a lot of money if wizards decided to reprint what you just bought. Also mass reprints would piss off dealers which is the main reason for this decision. You can't just start playing legacy and expect everything to be easily available. I didn't just get my collection it took time and money. The best part of legacy is you don't need > $500 decks to be competitive. You should all stop whining and start working so you can buy more cards.

QFT.

Wizards only keeps their promise, which is good.

4.) Print more cards that minimize the need for splashing as well.

This point is ridiculous. You don't want library manipulation and creature removal in every color for the same cost. How boring would that be!?

not quite so absurdly expensive variant of Moat and Grindstone.

Grindstone is absurdly expensive? Baneslayer, Jace, Tarmogoyf may be absurd. Not this. It's on the same price level as e.g. Noble Hierarch.

Print some decent cards at 2R and 3R so that Dragon Stompy is a viable deck. How about something like...

2R Sorcery

Deal 5 damage to target creature or player.

Play Char. Power creep is bad for a game in general.

It would even help Burn and Sligh become more viable because it's spells wouldn't all have to be supervulnerable to Chalice of the Void.

Flame Javelin, Char

TooCloseToTheSun

03-20-2010, 06:22 PM

The dealers and players all favor reprints. And most Legacy staples- Force, Goyfs, LftL, EE, StP, Confidants, Tops, Wraths, Damnations, Wishes, Ad Nauseam, Fetchlands, Wasteland, Entomb, etc., etc..- aren't protected by the reserve list.

And frankly few people are even talking of mass reprints. People mainly want Wizards to release promotional dual lands in some form to keep the format limber. Ignoring your irrational decision to hate on poorer players, which is dumb, and your assumption that people who have invested years of their life into the format are whining just because they don't have the cards, which is also dumb, nothing can fix the problem of short supply other than more supply. Price doesn't rise for no reason.

There is a shortage? Where? Any time I need cards I go online and there they are, I may have to pay a little more but I get what I want, mostly. And I am poor. I am at school and I make almost no money. It has taken me years to get the collection I have. I didn't just start playing legacy with a DTB.

pi4meterftw

03-20-2010, 08:45 PM

If we ignore things like the Cedar revolution, the rainbow coalition of revolutions in places like Georgia, Iran and Ukraine, the strikes that are crippling Greece right now and have crippled France, Thais pouring blood in the streets in protest, minorities in China rioting for autonomy while Hong Kong protest for democracy and workers protest in Beijing for protection, Muslim countries from Pakistan to Morroco racked by marches for (and against) Sharia law, calls for resignations and accusations of corruption that draw tens of thousands of protectors in Guatemala and Honduras and Mexico and Venezuela, mass calls for socialism in those Latin American countries that aren't already trending that way, mass calls against socialism in those countries that are, nationalist riots in India and anarchist demonstrations in Copenhagen, then sure, I might have difficulty of thinking of counter-examples to this claim off the top of my head from just the past few years.

I can tell you're American because you obviously have no idea what's going on in the rest of the world.

First of all, I didn't claim that other nations didn't have protesting. But I'll admit I heavily implied it, because I think it's true.

But how could I think it's true, even after you expounded upon so many examples of protests occurring in other nations? Because I wasn't talking about that kind. I do think that some of those examples are marks of stupidity of people who concern themselves with small details, but when I referred to the sort of "petty protesting" that I was talking about in America, I was talking about:

http://www.newuniversity.org/2010/02/opinion/black-student-union-statement-february-2010-ucsd-black-student-union-address-state-of-emergency/

As well as the fact that when I serve jury duty, it might possibly because someone's dog made too much noise? zzzzzzzzzzz

And protests about:

http://www.pleasantonweekly.com/news/show_story.php?id=1801

As well as the fact that when I serve jury duty, it might possibly because someone's dog made too much noise? zzzzzzzzzzz

culminating in obviously stupid suggestions like firing the chancellor blah blah blah blah. zzzzzzzzzzzzz really? If you fire the chancellor then UCSD dies. It's a damn good thing I transferred if people like you really think that power should be put in hands as stupid as the people at these protests.

People in other countries protest too, which I think is wrong some of the time, but at least even if it's wrong they're not protesting about petty stuff. They're at least protesting because they perceive themselves to be in a rather disparate situation. (Something like "fuck, not being a democratic nation is the end of the world omg MAYBE MY VOICE MATTERS!") Like I think that's excessively optimistic and disobedient, but I can see where they're coming from. I'm not sure if I'm saying this in a way that you'll understand, but basically I don't think that people know what's good for them, except people who are "sufficiently smart" and that thus protesting is usually bad for everybody else, and bad for the protestors. But I'm not so callous as to make fun of people who at least protest for significant things.

To further expound upon your first group of points, I should note that indeed I am American. I satisfy the "requirement" of not knowing, or caring about history at all. (Including that of the rest of the world. But I'm a fair guy. I don't care for American history either.) I'll learn a "lesson from history" if someone puts it in front of me, because I don't think history is useless. I'm just not interested in it, so I won't seek it out for myself. Therefore, I don't make comments that would require me to have to know any history, besides knowing that college protests/other petty protesting are a phenomenon most pronounced in America.

This statement violates every known principle of logic and economics.

So why not play Vintage? Oh, right, it's not actually a good investment because the prices have stagnated because no one plays it anymore because the cost of entry is so prohibitive.

Well, fuck it man, why learn from history?

Because supporting Legacy, unlike maintaining the reserved list, actually helps Wizards make money. It means card have actual value in the long term- not just because market forces can continue to increase their price, which is always a spotty bet, but because they can actually be played, which is what most people who play Magic think of when they think of their cards maintaining value.

I think you understand that you took the first of these quotes out of context, so nothing further needs to be said there. Your second point is well-taken. I had not thought the economics of the situation far enough in advance. I'm not sure your 3rd point is true, but in any case people speak as if they have "a right" to a better game. They're talking about sending wizards emails like "STOP MAKING GAME SUX LOLOLOLOL." When you seem to be arguing that it might be that we could say "Dear wizards: You're not maximizing your profit... idiots."

But nobody is thinking about emailing that to Wizards, even though I'm willing to bet (immoral or not) that's the only thing Wizards cares about.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

03-20-2010, 09:31 PM

Well, keep in mind that you don't see the protests that don't matter from other nations in the news cycle. But you can certainly see their effects; heck, look at the near-blanket ban on genetically modified food in Europe. That exists because of people fretting about phantasms of frankenfood and fish genes in their tomatoes.

And I know I've e-mailed Wizards with the economic arguments. I'm sure some people are just spam-flaming.

arebennian

03-20-2010, 09:58 PM

1.) Print good dual lands that both work with fetchlands and are very close to as good as the original dual lands.

You've been printing dual lands for standard for years. But simply put, if the duals can't be fetched out, they won't see play in legacy. Fetchlands offer so many useful functions that they will be played in any deck that splashes. So futures duals you print need to be fetchable by fetchlands

The Ravinca duals are near unplayable because giving up 3 life to fetch your dual lands is extremely painful. If it was only costed you two life total to fetch them, then there would be minimal draw back to playing them over the original duals. So if nothing else, please print ravinica duals that only cost you one life when they come into play, rather than two.

I'm sure there are several ways Wizards could print dual lands that can be fetched with fetchlands, that are extremely close in powerlevel to the originals.

The original duals can still be absolutely superior. But the disadvantage should be extremely minor. Lighting Bolting yourself like the Ravnica Duals make you do is not minor enough.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?16940-New-Dual-Land-Cycle-Idea&p=440089

So.
I claimed in the 'Revised Reprint Policy' thread that Wizards would make a viable Dual land in the next 5 years. There was a massive thread on Salvation about what the new M10 Duals would look like, but I don't really want to dig that up for their ideas.
So for now, after some quick thinking, here is what I came up with.

Not Quite Tundra
Land: Plains
t: Add W to your mana pool
t: Add U to your mana pool

What do you all think of this idea?
Anyone got anything better?

Mr.C

03-20-2010, 10:03 PM

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?16940-New-Dual-Land-Cycle-Idea&p=440089

So.
I claimed in the 'Revised Reprint Policy' thread that Wizards would make a viable Dual land in the next 5 years. There was a massive thread on Salvation about what the new M10 Duals would look like, but I don't really want to dig that up for their ideas.
So for now, after some quick thinking, here is what I came up with.

Not Quite Tundra
Land: Plains
t: Add W to your mana pool
t: Add U to your mana pool

What do you all think of this idea?
Anyone got anything better?

I'm more in favour of banning the original duals, and printing this:

Flaming Highland
Land - Lair Mountain Plains

I would laugh so, so hard if that happened. Plus, they'd be cheap if printed in Standard (see Zen Fetches).

DukeDemonKn1ght

03-20-2010, 10:05 PM

I don't get why people feel entitled to complaining. You get what wizards gives you, and if you don't like it, nobody is forcing you to play. But WOTC just does whatever makes them the most money, and maybe that's like immoral, but you can't do anything about it, so just be quiet and play.

The most successful companies tend to want to know what makes their consumers happy, in order to make them (the company) better able to make us (the consumer) happier, so we in turn will give them more money.

On the other hand, I can tell from your ideology that you're clearly a huge fan of Ayn Rand, so I'm not even sure why I'm trying to explain this to you.

from Cairo

03-20-2010, 11:29 PM

I'm more in favour of banning the original duals, and printing this:

Flaming Highland
Land - Lair Mountain Plains

I would laugh so, so hard if that happened. Plus, they'd be cheap if printed in Standard (see Zen Fetches).

Why would they ban the originals, that would no doubt ruin their relationship with the majority of the legacy community. They could just print the functional reprints and have both be legal. The way current manabases are built it doesn't even seem like there are that many decks that would benefit from having access to Duals 5-8.

Mr.C

03-21-2010, 12:34 AM

Why would they ban the originals, that would no doubt ruin their relationship with the majority of the legacy community. They could just print the functional reprints and have both be legal. The way current manabases are built it doesn't even seem like there are that many decks that would benefit from having access to Duals 5-8.

In case you didn't notice, they have already ruined their relationship with the majority of the legacy community.

swats0n

03-21-2010, 01:44 AM

There is a shortage? Where? Any time I need cards I go online and there they are, I may have to pay a little more but I get what I want, mostly. And I am poor. I am at school and I make almost no money. It has taken me years to get the collection I have. I didn't just start playing legacy with a DTB.

See and the root of your argument, like many others with the same view, is selfishness: "I worked hard to get my cards, so it's not fair if Wizards changes their policy and makes cards easier for more people to get. Everyone has to work hard like me, otherwise it's not fair (to me)." It is a purely selfish viewpoint that operates on the idea of maximizing your own personal investment at the expense of anyone else who would like to play. I don't even know why people treat magic cards as some sort of stock. They are easily damaged, lost, stolen, subject to the whims of wizards - many valuable cards are not on the reserved list at all and could be reprinted any time - they are simply not a reliable monetary investment.

Float4WeldSlaver

03-21-2010, 01:58 AM

I find it amusing that people equate "get rid of the reserved list" to "print infinite power and duals."

Mana Drain hasn't been reprinted. Just because something is not reserved does it mean they will reprint it.

workingdude

03-21-2010, 01:59 AM

Taiga Woods
Forest Mountain
Taiga Uppercut comes into play tapped unless you pay two life. Sacrifice Taiga Woods: Add G or R to your mana pool.

Well first of all, this is strictly better than a dual. And second of all, lol, Taiga Woods.

The most successful companies tend to want to know what makes their consumers happy, in order to make them (the company) better able to make us (the consumer) happier, so we in turn will give them more money.

I think that WotC thinks that they dont make much money from paper Legacy players/tournaments. We generally don't buy as many packs as Standard-format and especially Limited-format players (I'm counting buying into a draft as buying 3 packs). Therefore, they want to kill Legacy, masking it behind the RL revision.

I bet the executives at Hasbro would cringe every time a Legacy player has said, "The fee for Legacy may be higher, but it's a one time expense. You don't have to continuously buy more and more cards every two years."

As long as the money they would get from amount of people who would switch from Legacy to Standard offsets the amount of money they get from the occasional weekly Legacy tournaments around the world, they are ahead. They know that magic is an addictive game and that many Legacy players would rather play Standard/Limited than not at all. As a bonus, there is no worry about losing Standard people to Legacy.

If this is so, many of the e-mails being sent about Legacy's eventual death due to this action will be, overall, useless. As MaRo, AaFo, and other game designers may agree and sympathize with you, business authorities would not.

Sometimes the desires of the individual (me, others) and the needs of the corporation do not align. Won't be much more of an explanation.

Shawon

03-21-2010, 04:54 AM

Taiga Uppercut

Taiga Woods

Haha, good names. I LOL'd.

Cabal_chan

03-21-2010, 07:31 AM

Well first of all, this is strictly better than a dual. And second of all, lol, Taiga Woods.

I think that WotC thinks that they dont make much money from paper Legacy players/tournaments. We generally don't buy as many packs as Standard-format and especially Limited-format players (I'm counting buying into a draft as buying 3 packs). Therefore, they want to kill Legacy, masking it behind the RL revision.

I bet the executives at Hasbro would cringe every time a Legacy player has said, "The fee for Legacy may be higher, but it's a one time expense. You don't have to continuously buy more and more cards every two years."

As long as the money they would get from amount of people who would switch from Legacy to Standard offsets the amount of money they get from the occasional weekly Legacy tournaments around the world, they are ahead. They know that magic is an addictive game and that many Legacy players would rather play Standard/Limited than not at all. As a bonus, there is no worry about losing Standard people to Legacy.

If this is so, many of the e-mails being sent about Legacy's eventual death due to this action will be, overall, useless. As MaRo, AaFo, and other game designers may agree and sympathize with you, business authorities would not.

AaFo said that the decision didn't have anything to do with Hasbro...so that would mean there's a disagreement inside WotC? I thought MaRo/AaFo were pretty high up in WotC, so they could apply pressure/override things?

Peter_Rotten

03-21-2010, 07:55 AM

I think that WotC thinks that they dont make much money from paper Legacy players/tournaments. We generally don't buy as many packs as Standard-format and especially Limited-format players (I'm counting buying into a draft as buying 3 packs). Therefore, they want to kill Legacy, masking it behind the RL revision.

With record breaking GPs, why would they want to kill Legacy? It doesn't make any sense to get rid of a format that is extremely popular.

I bet the executives at Hasbro would cringe every time a Legacy player has said, "The fee for Legacy may be higher, but it's a one time expense. You don't have to continuously buy more and more cards every two years."

This is another popular misconception. I haven't played Legacy in a year and a half, have a sizable collection with most of the important cards (Goyf, FoW, Duals,etc.), and I can't build a single current top deck without spending some money. From cheap cards like Pridemages to money cards like Entomb, I'd be spending money to be a current good deck.

Between the unstopable, Flash-like presence of Reanimator, the broken brokeness of Blue Lands, and the callous and dismissive insult of this new revised policy, I'm surprised that the format is surviving at all. :rolleyes:

AngryTroll

03-21-2010, 11:42 AM

Between the unstopable, Flash-like presence of Reanimator, the broken brokeness of Blue Lands, and the callous and dismissive insult of this new revised policy, I'm surprised that the format is surviving at all. :rolleyes:

The first two parts sound like sarcasm, but the revised policy makes you sound serious; I'm confused.

Reanimator is not Flash. Flash accounted for 3/8ths of the Columbus Top 8, and won the thing. Reanimator picked up a total of 1 Top 8 slot at Indianapolis last week. Between Madrid, Indianapolis, and Richmond, it has 4 Top 8s (out of 24 total), 2 Top 4s (out of 12), and 1 win.

The meta will adjust to Reanimator. There was no adjusting to Hulk Flash (especially in the days before Countertop was common).

Forbiddian

03-21-2010, 01:03 PM

Actually, America is pretty fucking lazy when it comes to protests. We hardly protest anything.

I remember seeing some statistics about protesting/active citizenship and Canada and the UK ranked much higher than the US. We dropped the ball since 1970.

workingdude

03-21-2010, 01:03 PM

With record breaking GPs, why would they want to kill Legacy? It doesn't make any sense to get rid of a format that is extremely popular.

I already said that Legacy players do not buy as many packs as Standard. An extremely popular format that may be taking away people from drafts/sealed/standard tourneys is not good for them.

This is another popular misconception. I haven't played Legacy in a year and a half, have a sizable collection with most of the important cards (Goyf, FoW, Duals,etc.), and I can't build a single current top deck without spending some money. From cheap cards like Pridemages to money cards like Entomb, I'd be spending money to be a current good deck.

But you will not being buying boosters to look for those pridemages, right?

AaFo said that the decision didn't have anything to do with Hasbro...so that would mean there's a disagreement inside WotC? I thought MaRo/AaFo were pretty high up in WotC, so they could apply pressure/override things?

This, I am unsure about. But I am willing to venture a guess that there are also WotC execs that care more about the bottom dollar than format development. Or if my theory that Legacy is detrimental to Hasbro cash-flow is correct, MaRo and AaFo might just be acting as responsible businessmen

DukeDemonKn1ght

03-21-2010, 01:22 PM

I really can't help but feel extremely sad and butt-hurt about this whole thing.

Also, I wish I had bought a lot more staple cards about a year ago, so if the ship goes down, I could at least pawn off some trinkets and make a few ducketts off the whole deal.

I guess there's always MWS. Until they succeed in finally castrating that also.

loveisgreen

03-21-2010, 01:33 PM

paK0

03-21-2010, 01:48 PM

I'd actually send something, but it will do nothing anyways. Wizards knows that there are many Legacy players. Wizards knows that we are upset, that is exactly why they made this thing. They do not view us a customers anymore, so sending any form of appeal would have the effect of the vegetarian union sending appeal to a butcher. They do not care, thats all there is to it, rather, they are happy, any complain how they kill Legacy actually reads like:

"You win"

for them.

Arsenal

03-21-2010, 01:58 PM

As for the price of duals, I traded a bunch of my winnings from standard events to online shops for credit (Baneslayer, pulses etc.) to buy the duals that I have now. It really isn't that difficult, it just takes some time.

You're missing the whole point; prices may not be an issue now, but 4-5 years down the road? You're not going to be able to reasonably trade-in Standard chase rares for Legacy staples.

TooCloseToTheSun

03-21-2010, 04:54 PM

You're missing the whole point; prices may not be an issue now, but 4-5 years down the road? You're not going to be able to reasonably trade-in Standard chase rares for Legacy staples.

Do you have a magic 8 ball or something. Where are you getting this info? Or did you just draw up the narrative that supports your view.

Arsenal

03-21-2010, 04:58 PM

Do you have a magic 8 ball or something. Where are you getting this info? Or did you just draw up the narative that supports your view.

Look into my crystal ball... (http://www.wizards.com/magic/tcg/article.aspx?x=magic/products/reprintpolicy)

TooCloseToTheSun

03-21-2010, 05:01 PM

Do you have a magic 8 ball or something. Where are you getting this info? Or did you just draw up the narrative that supports your view.

Look into my crystal ball... (http://www.wizards.com/magic/tcg/article.aspx?x=magic/products/reprintpolicy)

So you are just drawing up the narrative that supports your view. OK

rocketrae21

03-21-2010, 05:35 PM

Honestly, I think everyone is making way too big a deal out of this imaginary shortage of Duals. If you need Underground Seas, let me make a few suggestions:

Strikezoneonline- 36
Empiregamesonline.net- 59
CCGhouse.com- 9
Hotsaucegames.com- 6
White Lion Games- 7
Cape Fear Games- 7
Merlin's Games- 6
Ebay- Approx. 70 auctions, some as playsets

As for the price of duals, I traded a bunch of my winnings from standard events to online shops for credit (Baneslayer, pulses etc.) to buy the duals that I have now. It really isn't that difficult, it just takes some time.

Yeah I don't think Underground Seas sell for 6 dollars...you need to recheck your prices unless you are talking how many they have in stock.
But people aren't bitching so much about the stock, they don't want to spend 75 dollars on the land because they are cheap

Arsenal

03-21-2010, 05:48 PM

So you are just drawing up the narrative that supports your view. OK

Please tell me you understand how Wizard's reprint policy, assuming it doesn't change again, impacts the economics of Magic, specifically Supply & Demand.

Peter_Rotten

03-21-2010, 05:54 PM

Yeah I don't think Underground Seas sell for 6 dollars...you need to recheck your prices unless you are talking how many they have in stock.
But people aren't bitching so much about the stock, they don't want to spend 75 dollars on the land because they are cheap
I think that what TooClosetotheSun listed are the NUMBER of UndergroundSeas, NOT the prices.:wink:

MattH

03-21-2010, 06:29 PM

NO!

The reprint policy is there for a reason. Without it no sane person would buy legacy staples because they could end up losing a lot of money if wizards decided to reprint what you just bought.

Thanks for pointing this out! This is exactly why no sane person *ever* buys Tarmogoyf, or Loyal Retainers, or Force of Will, or Mana Drains, or Wastelands, or Dark Confidants, or Jittes, or Polluted Deltas. :rolleyes:

TooCloseToTheSun

03-21-2010, 08:23 PM

Thanks for pointing this out! This is exactly why no sane person *ever* buys Tarmogoyf, or Loyal Retainers, or Force of Will, or Mana Drains, or Wastelands, or Dark Confidants, or Jittes, or Polluted Deltas. :rolleyes:

The dissolution of the reserve list now would insinuate that wizards was reprinting something on the list and people would stop buying. If wizards announced they were reprinting any of those cards listed above people would stop buying them immediately also. I guess I don't get what you are saying. The cards you listed are riskier to buy at high prices but wizards hasn't implied that they are reprinting any of those.

Cabal_chan

03-21-2010, 08:41 PM

TooCloseToTheSun

03-21-2010, 08:47 PM

We seek enlightenment.

Would you buy Force of Will at 45 dollars if wizards said they were going to reprint it in the next set? Don't be an idiot.

the Thin White Duke

03-21-2010, 10:49 PM

Would you buy Force of Will at 45 dollars if wizards said they were going to reprint it in the next set? Don't be an idiot.

Yes, I would pay $45 now before the T2 community drove demand up even more. In fact this would be one of the few "fair" ways to re-intruduce cards like this. Instead if printing some limited "From the Vaults" set, (i.e. $100 bills for dealers) if Wizards reprinted legacy staples in a T2 expansion, they would sell out every printing of the set; players would get a chance to pull duals or FoWs from packs; dealers would be selling product like crazy. There would be a spike in prices as these cards were Standard-legal, but once the set rotates prices would settle down.

TOGITwill

03-22-2010, 12:57 AM

There's also the fact the Wizard's as a whole shouldn't care about the secondary market, seeing how they don't make a dime off of it. Their announcement of Reserve List Policy should have absolutely nothing to do with whether or not people would buy cards now given an impending reprint.

evilgorrilaz

03-22-2010, 01:53 AM

Yes, I would pay $45 now before the T2 community drove demand up even more. In fact this would be one of the few "fair" ways to re-intruduce cards like this. Instead if printing some limited "From the Vaults" set, (i.e. $100 bills for dealers) if Wizards reprinted legacy staples in a T2 expansion, they would sell out every printing of the set; players would get a chance to pull duals or FoWs from packs; dealers would be selling product like crazy. There would be a spike in prices as these cards were Standard-legal, but once the set rotates prices would settle down.

Not true. Look at M10 and Zen. That product was already selling like crazy. And I don't think that putting FoWs in a new set will neccesarily cause a T2 spike. Just look at the EV of a booster. FoW is at a price point where as long as Wizards puts something else decent in the set where FoW might be reprinted, the EV of a booster will prevent prices from climbing any higher.

TorpidNinja

03-22-2010, 05:53 AM

Would you buy Force of Will at 45 dollars if wizards said they were going to reprint it in the next set? Don't be an idiot.

I own a stack of Forces. As a temporarily benched player, I should be all about the Reserved List staying up because it only serves to increase the value of my collection.

Provided Legacy is sufficiently populated.

As people have been trying to explain, once the perception of Legacy becomes that of contemporary Vintage (that victory can't be achieved without significant financial investment) then the player base will decrease. Significantly. This leads to less demand for Legacy staples and, thus, a decrease in staples pricing. But this is at the expense of the Legacy format, which would stagnate without new players and population density innovation.

In short, screw the secondary market. It's about the players, dammit, not jerk hoarders like myself waiting for either a cash-out or a financial windfall. Bad thing is bad. Stop hurting America.

Cabal_chan

03-22-2010, 07:57 AM

Would you buy Force of Will at 45 dollars if wizards said they were going to reprint it in the next set? Don't be an idiot.

Actually, I might. Because I know, even if I lost money, that the format's long term vitality was insured. And that's worth the extra money to me.

Actually, my post was pointing out the blatant contradiction you made. Nice to see you ignored that.

Edit: I'm alot less inclined to spend money on WotC, Legacy in particular, since the long term health isn't insured anymore.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

03-22-2010, 08:50 AM

I don't know what it is in the modern day that you can ignore the overarching reality and try to quibble about arbitrary principles that you suddenly attach import to for no discernible purpose.

There is no fucking fundamental principle that says, "I bought some pieces of cardboard. Therefore, these pieces of cardboard should retain the exact same value they have now forever! Or higher!"

You don't have a fucking right to use Magic cards as your fucking 401K. You just don't. Stuff it. Your childish demands that Wizards somehow control the secondary market so you don't get burned on your revised Scrublands doesn't outweigh the long term health of the Legacy format, or Wizards bottom line, both of which would be helped by abolishing the reserve list.

undone

03-22-2010, 09:40 AM

I dont see this as too big a problem for a few reasons.

1) People will have differant views on things, thats just how it is.

2) WotC does NOT want the game to go the way of Yugioh by reprinting every card that goes over 100 bucks.

3) WotC hurting dealers via reprinting is terrible as it means first less money for them second less money for the dealers and third half the player/collector base is pissed off.

WotC attempts to satisfy five groups, itself, dealers, collectors, casual players and compedative players. Of those groups itself, dealers and collectors are already 3 of 5 that are helped by the reserved list. That is before you take into account that some of the casual players would not like to have thier precious 50 dollar gem drop to 10 bucks. Some compedative players clearly also support the list. Which means you have about half of two groups on your side, the dealers and WotC against you and lastly collectors. In short WotC did what they deemed best for the largest number of people including themselves. They looked at the long term PROFITABLITY of the game and decided that this is the best way. Later in the future I expect an "eternal" format approximately double the size of extended to be the new pet format for WotC to push.

Raystar

03-22-2010, 09:44 AM

Not true. Look at M10 and Zen. That product was already selling like crazy. And I don't think that putting FoWs in a new set will neccesarily cause a T2 spike. Just look at the EV of a booster. FoW is at a price point where as long as Wizards puts something else decent in the set where FoW might be reprinted, the EV of a booster will prevent prices from climbing any higher.

Wrong. Zendikar sold like crazy because it got the additional pressure from eternal players seeking fetchlands. The proof is that WorldWake is not selling at all, I have very reliable sources at resellers level that tell me that a lot of shops are not selling WWK like it has happened with the previous set...

It may even be that Wizards saw this pattern and closed the reserved list to stop the unpredictability of the market due to spikes like the one happened with Zendikar.

Putting FoWs in a new set would guarantee the biggest sale of cards that this game ever had.

Watcher487

03-22-2010, 09:54 AM

The dissolution of the reserve list now would insinuate that wizards was reprinting something on the list and people would stop buying. If wizards announced they were reprinting any of those cards listed above people would stop buying them immediately also. I guess I don't get what you are saying. The cards you listed are riskier to buy at high prices but wizards hasn't implied that they are reprinting any of those.

Actually that wouldn't happen the way you think it would. What would happen would be.

1. Wizards would announce the dissolution of the reserve list.
2. Hoarders worried about thier "stock" falling into a gutter would sell.
3. Secondary Market would lower price on reserve list cards due to the influx of cards coming in.
4. Newer people will enter the format by purchasing cards at lower prices.
5. Secondary Market would raise the price based on cards sold.

It's pretty simple logic here.

Now what you are talking about seems a little off. There would be no way to relate that Wizards (if they dissolve the reserve list) would print them in the next set. You can't even think that short sided, because it would ruin thier precious Standard format and definatly ruin Extended.

The thing you shoulld think about here is the fact that the prices are still raising even though they are not getting any play via Top 8's from the recent events. No Badlands, No Volcanic Islands, No Scrublands and prices are still higher.

dahcmai

03-22-2010, 10:05 AM

Well to all you who keep bitching at the prices, I'd stop whining now. I keep a running tally of every single dual land that goes across Ebay and I couldn't believe how many are flooding the place right now. Seems the collectors know a bad deal when they see it and are dumping.

Don't believe me? Sign up a email search and see for yourself how many hit the bay every day now. I used to only see one Alpha one every so often, maybe once a month. Now there's like 3 a day. Guess that will fix the prices if the collectors dump. Seems only the hardcore eternal players are staying on this boat.

Stagnation will eventually bring those prices down, but that's a long way off still. Enjoy the extras in the pool in the meantime.

SpikeyMikey

03-22-2010, 10:25 AM

Can we get this thread locked? There are at least 3 other threads on the subject and this does not add anything that couldn't have been rolled into another thread. At best, this thread is an excuse for people to ignore valid arguments posted in other threads and repeat the same arguments that have already been shot down. Unecessary redundancy is unecessary.

HSCK

03-22-2010, 10:51 AM

Okay, so in full disclosure, I was a player that decided to use the cards as a way of making money and saving it like stock a couple years back. I decided to sell right before this massive surge in prices. I wholeheartedly disagree with this policy. Why? Not because I sold, inf fact, this is the reason I sold everything in the first place. I got tired of having cards and decks that I couldn't actually play with. I fell in love with the game no because I wanted to make an investment in cardboard stock, but because I enjoyed playing the game. I got into Legacy because it was an exciting format and I started to have enough money to get cards; only to realize it doesn't actually matter if there's no one to play within 300 miles of you.

This only exacerbates the problem, what's the point in playing a game that has an expiration date far ahead of what it can/should be? How are you going to sell your cards one day for all that money if no one is actually playing the format the cards are used in?

TooCloseToTheSun

03-22-2010, 11:35 AM

You don't have a fucking right to use Magic cards as your fucking 401K. You just don't. Stuff it. Your childish demands that Wizards somehow control the secondary market so you don't get burned on your revised Scrublands doesn't outweigh the long term health of the Legacy format, or Wizards bottom line, both of which would be helped by abolishing the reserve list.

There are a lot of dealers that make a living selling singles and those cards are their retirement. I would venture that a larger percentage of there profit comes from singles than sealed product. If dealers start losing money on cards they bought high and have to sell low because prices fell, they might be forced out of business. This IS bad for wizard's bottom line because if they lose dealers they lose their customers. Wizards doesn't sell direct (not that I know of) to players so if the lose dealers they lose profits. You don't have a fucking right to tell me what I can and can't do with MY cards. Your childish demands that we somehow need to conform to your way of thinking is idiotic.

"The real price of everything, what everything really costs to the man who wants to acquire it, is the toil and trouble of acquiring it." Adam Smith

hjalte

03-22-2010, 11:44 AM

How is it any better, that they have bought those expensive cards, and because the cards get too expensive, no one is going to buy them, because nobody plays with them?
By your reasoning, this will lead to dealers closing, because nobody is buying their singles. Then you have the exact same scenario.

Nihil Credo

03-22-2010, 12:02 PM

There are a lot of dealers that make a living selling singles and those cards are their retirement. I would venture that a larger percentage of there profit comes from singles than sealed product. If dealers start losing money on cards they bought high and have to sell low because prices fell, they might be forced out of business.
Forgive me if on this particular scenario I choose to trust Ben Bleiweiss's assessment over yours.

the Thin White Duke

03-22-2010, 02:10 PM

Has anyone seen the Arcana on Wizards' site today? What kind of bleepin' message are they trying to send?
(Or am I reading too much into this?)

Arsenal

03-22-2010, 02:22 PM

Has anyone seen the Arcana on Wizards' site today? What kind of bleepin' message are they trying to send?
(Or am I reading too much into this?)

Changes to the Banned/Restricted List and changes to the Reprint Policy, although sharing components, are two entirely different beasts. I wouldn't get too worked up over it.

The Wolf

03-22-2010, 04:16 PM

I think the size of legacy is fine the way it is. Why is everyone so obsessed with it getting bigger? Oh and vintage did not die cause of prices. All the tourneys were 10 proxy. Its just a format that not that many people like.

Cabal_chan

03-22-2010, 04:57 PM

I think the size of legacy is fine the way it is. Why is everyone so obsessed with it getting bigger?

Did you miss WotC saying 'gee, 2000+ at Madrid, we'll push this format some but not reprint any staples to make it more accessible/affordable?'

The Wolf

03-23-2010, 12:38 PM

Did you miss WotC saying 'gee, 2000+ at Madrid, we'll push this format some but not reprint any staples to make it more accessible/affordable?'

My point is, Legacy is already a big format. If you’re trying to get Legacy pushed to replace Extended or Type 2, then these are real problems. I don’t think anyone here is trying to do that and neither is Wizards, so I don’t see what the issue on these boards is. Your format is already huge, its healthy and Wizards is going to have more events. Good work, you got on the radar. So what’s with all the complaining? Do you want it to be the new PT format?

Cabal_chan

03-23-2010, 01:28 PM

The Wolf

03-23-2010, 02:33 PM

Do you not understand what increased demand on a limited supply means?

Again, I think the spike in demand has already happened. Wizards is going to continue to support the format, but it not going to replace the 3 major ones (Limited, Standard and Extended). Where is all this extra demand going to come from? Everyone at the GP already had what they needed, otherwise they wouldn't have played. Prices will settle. I’m not saying the format will be cheap, but none of them really are.

Also, this is going nowhere so I will stop bumping this thread.

herbig

03-23-2010, 02:43 PM

Everyone at the GP already had what they needed, otherwise they wouldn't have played.

Both parts of that statement are incorrect. Players were cracking boosters to try and get Tarmogoyfs and Force of Wills. Also, subpar budget cards and decks were played in place of something better, like Ravnica dual lands and anything in New and Developmental.

chris_acheson

03-23-2010, 05:37 PM

My point is, Legacy is already a big format. If you’re trying to get Legacy pushed to replace Extended or Type 2, then these are real problems. I don’t think anyone here is trying to do that and neither is Wizards, so I don’t see what the issue on these boards is. Your format is already huge, its healthy and Wizards is going to have more events. Good work, you got on the radar. So what’s with all the complaining? Do you want it to be the new PT format?

Honestly, yes, I do find this disappointing. While I care little for Extended and Type 2 and wouldn't mind seeing them replaced, realistically I wanted to see Legacy placed on equal footing with them. The continued existence of the reserve list means that the popularity of Legacy will stagnate, even as the popularity of Magic in general continues to grow.

AngryTroll

03-23-2010, 06:04 PM

Honestly, yes, I do find this disappointing. While I care little for Extended and Type 2 and wouldn't mind seeing them replaced, realistically I wanted to see Legacy placed on equal footing with them. The continued existence of the reserve list means that the popularity of Legacy will stagnate, even as the popularity of Magic in general continues to grow.

Whoa, I don't remember posting that. Apparently I've been cloned.

chris_acheson

03-23-2010, 07:39 PM

Whoa, I don't remember posting that. Apparently I've been cloned.

Heh. Some of my friends call me "Happy Troll" IRL. Not trying to impersonate you, honest. :-)

Meister_Kai

03-23-2010, 07:47 PM

A quote from today's Magic Daily Deck List (43 Lands)

"The Legacy format allows players to use nearly all Magic cards that have ever been printed! With the exclusion of a few overly powerful cards on its banned list, Legacy covers all sets in the game's history. That means you get some interesting decks. Chris Woltereck recently won a large Legacy tournament, the StarCityGames.com Open in Indianapolis, using a deck playing over 40 lands! The goal of his deck is to put as many lands onto the battlefield as possible using Exploration, Manabond, and Life from the Loam. From there it can beat people down with Mishra's Factory or Mindslaver-lock them using Academy Ruins. Sound like fun? Well now you can play too, because Legacy is coming to Magic Online soon!"

Seriously Wizards, seriously?

jrsthethird

03-23-2010, 08:07 PM

A quote from today's Magic Daily Deck List (43 Lands)

Sound like fun? Well now you can play too, because Legacy is coming to Magic Online soon!"

Seriously Wizards, seriously?

This is how you can make the Legacy community more mad at you!

Arrowni

03-24-2010, 06:23 PM

I officially propose to cut the Reserved least to nothing from Ice Ages and after. Players still lose, but they lose a lot less.

MMogg

03-24-2010, 06:30 PM

I officially propose to cut the Reserved least to nothing from Ice Ages and after. Players still lose, but they lose a lot less.

Reserved Cards

The complete list of reserved cards appears at the end of this document. Reserved cards will never be printed again in a functionally identical form. A card is considered functionally identical to another card if it has the same card type, subtypes, abilities, mana cost, power, and toughness. No cards will be added to the reserved list in the future. No cards from the Mercadian Masques set and later sets will be reserved. In consideration of past commitments, however, no cards will be removed from this list. The exclusion of any particular card from the reserved list doesn't indicate that there are any plans to reprint that card.

Proposal countered.

Arrowni

03-24-2010, 06:44 PM

We bargain. From the moment the list changed a few days ago other sentences from the previous reprint policy became false.

In honesty we don't need for those cards to be reprinted as they wouldn't be as needed as dual lands nor as expensive. I take CYOS rules and online reprints as a base, clearly wizards thinks there is a before and after Ice Age block. I think the difference should be literal and I think the difference should be this.

Nihil Credo

03-24-2010, 09:12 PM

We bargain.
You need a chip to bargain.

Before you mention it, no, the cash of Legacy players isn't a valid chip, in the sense that nobody can write to Wizards and claim to hold it.

Mind you, I'm not necessarily shooting down your proposal, just your idea of what to do with it.

jrsthethird

03-24-2010, 09:36 PM

I take CYOS rules and online reprints as a base, clearly wizards thinks there is a before and after Ice Age block.

Also, IIRC, the first Extended used Ice Age as the cutoff.

Arrowni

03-24-2010, 10:10 PM

You need a chip to bargain.

Before you mention it, no, the cash of Legacy players isn't a valid chip, in the sense that nobody can write to Wizards and claim to hold it.

Mind you, I'm not necessarily shooting down your proposal, just your idea of what to do with it.

I'm trying to apply constructive pressure here. We could do lots of things to sabotage Wizards at Eternal level if we wanted to, given that -it has been said- Legacy players hold quite a big part of the amount of cards in the secondary market, is not as if Legacy players were alone in this, Menedian and other magic personalities have spoken against the Reserved list as it was, and then again maybe some voices from Starcitygames could be added.

But after this chapter the last thing I would think of is straight confrontation. We can bargain by helping to build a big player base to a more viable constructed format, we can build a community, write articles, try decklists and all in all save wizards a lot of money into making what could become the next big format without pissing collectors off. These are things in our power, the big magic sites are mostly held by players and people interested in the future well being of the game, if its done right about everyone wins.

Did you noticed how the Vintage boom ended with the growth of the Legacy community? I think those player migrations are actually very important to decide the future of Eternal formats and Eternal cards, done right and with direction this may as well be the biggest chance to legitimize our community as important for the development of Magic as a whole. But first of all we need to reach important consensus about what we should think about the future.

caiomarcos

03-24-2010, 10:14 PM

Cabal_chan

03-25-2010, 07:49 AM

They only forgot that you CAN'T PLAY IT. There is no Rishadan Port to be played online.

Clearly paper Legacy will be left to die a long, slow death in favor of the online platform that some people call Magic: the Gathering. They only forget about one thing, IT IS NOT.

I take solace knowing that, should MTGO servers go down, that my paper collection will be just fine.

ImpinAintEasy

03-25-2010, 09:53 AM

I take solace knowing that, should MTGO servers go down, that my paper collection will be just fine.

I play Magic online exclusively for many different reasons. I've been playing online since its very beginning. I've never once lost a card. Saying you could lose cards due to MTGO servers is just about the same as saying your paper cards could be lost in a fire. Could it happen? Sure, is it likely to happen, probably not.

MTGO has many flaws, but it provides many opportunities for old time players like myself who don't have the time to venture out every friday/saturday night to play in tournaments.

And I wouldn't worry about lack of Legacy needed cards not currently available online. I am sure we will soon be looking at cards like Replenish and Sink Hole to fill that void in our hearts.

Link Ramirez

03-25-2010, 11:36 AM

Saying you could lose cards due to MTGO servers is just about the same as saying your paper cards could be lost in a fire. Could it happen? Sure, is it likely to happen, probably not.

And there are backups for the data in case a server dies. But in the fire case it will be difficult to convince your insurance company about the value of your cards. I don't think that an online collection is less safe than a paper one. Plus, during an online tournament is no need to always watch your cards/trade binder, because there are no thiefs running around.

MTGO has many flaws, but it provides many opportunities for old time players like myself who don't have the time to venture out every friday/saturday night to play in tournaments.

Time and availability were the main reasons for me to start playing MTGO.

By the way, I'm seriously happy that Legacy is coming to MTGO. Seriously.

loveisgreen

03-26-2010, 07:39 AM

Oh, absolutely! I can't wait to spend 70+ tickets on each of my Forces when I have paper ones right here!

Wizards is pushing the Legacy into the online realm because they can't make money off of us in the paper game. How long has it been since you bought a pack? I mean seriously, I think maybe I bought a few packs of Onslaught way back when, but other than that Wizards has gotten jack from me.

This way, you have to buy tickets from their store (which costs them nothing), and buy your cards from the dealers or draft terribad blocks (which costs them nothing) to play in the legacy events with pack prizes (which, conveniently, costs them nothing).

I suppose it's a pretty sweet business prospect, but holy shit, my legacy deck costs over $1200 in real life, what the hell does that equate to online where the REAL shortage of product exists, because no one is dumb enough to crack Stronghold packs at retail in the hopes of MAYBE opening a Mox Diamond.

Shabbaman

03-26-2010, 07:47 AM

Also, IIRC, the first Extended used Ice Age as the cutoff.

Ice Age plus duals.

Link Ramirez

03-26-2010, 08:02 AM

I mean seriously, I think maybe I bought a few packs of Onslaught way back when, but other than that Wizards has gotten jack from me.

But companies care about customers. And you say that you are not a customer.

caiomarcos

03-26-2010, 09:12 AM

Plus, during an online tournament is no need to always watch your cards/trade binder, because there are no thiefs running around.

Because there are no cards to be stolen. Also, there aren't any friends running around either. Neither a fun lunch break where you brag/complain about your matches, nor the beer and partying after, nor any social interaction at all. Misclicks are more frustrating than any mistake you can make on paper. There's no feeling involved - the playmat, the new sleeves.

Maybe it's just me, but actually playing the game is just a part of the whole thing.

I actually assembled a Legacy deck to play online but every time I play a match I find it more dull and more distant from real Magic.

It's like watching porn vs. having real sex.

Watcher487

03-26-2010, 09:12 AM

But companies care about customers. And you say that you are not a customer.

While that might be true for him. It doesn't truly hold true for everyone on this site. I only play EDH and Legacy but I normally crack a box almost every set (and sometimes go to extremes on that stuff).

eq.firemind

03-26-2010, 09:28 AM

There's no feeling involved.

It's like watching porn vs. having real sex.
This.
People pay money to go to football match/favorite band's live show. They can turn on the TV and see all that action for (about) free, but they still pay money to just be inside it.

Link Ramirez

03-26-2010, 09:39 AM

While that might be true for him. It doesn't truly hold true for everyone on this site.

Of course. I'm not a friend of generalizations either. But I regularly hear eternal players talking about how great eternal formats are, because they never have to buy packs.

And I also understand, that reprinting cards could make legacy player purchase more packs.

@caiomarcus:
This whole social interaction thing is true. But then, I can do laundry between matches, don't have to find a babysitter if my wife is busy and so on.

This thread looked like (almost) every legacy player hates MTGO.
As stated above, I don't like generalizations but I like playing MTGO.

ImpinAintEasy

03-26-2010, 09:45 AM

Because there are no cards to be stolen. Also, there aren't any friends running around either. Neither a fun lunch break where you brag/complain about your matches, nor the beer and partying after, nor any social interaction at all. Misclicks are more frustrating than any mistake you can make on paper. There's no feeling involved - the playmat, the new sleeves.

Maybe it's just me, but actually playing the game is just a part of the whole thing.

I actually assembled a Legacy deck to play online but every time I play a match I find it more dull and more distant from real Magic.

It's like watching porn vs. having real sex.

While all those things are true, I think you are missing the point. Online play isn't going to be able to replace the feeling of shuffling your own cards, Hi-Fiving your buddy when you both place in tournaments or chugging down a few beers between matches. What online play does is provides an easy way for players such as myself to play a game they love. You can play a test match, anytime of the day. You can join several tournaments at different times of the day. For someone like me, it provides several opportunities. I think it really benefits the older players who are married with kids and don't have the free time we once did.

Sure online cards are expensive, right now everyone and their brothers are hoarding them in anticipation of Legacy coming online. I wouldn't be to alarmed by this, be patient and the card prices will start to slowly level off.

Part of the problem is that 95% (Made up of course) of the people who complain about Legacy online haven't even played online.

And btw the porn comment has no merit, I would go out on a limb and say that more guys watch porn than actually have sex, or should I say married guys lol!

eq.firemind

03-26-2010, 09:56 AM

What online play does is provides an easy way for players such as myself to play a game they love.
Valid point.
But we, young men with some spare time to do magic/bear/trashtalk/whatever, have a fear that new policy will lead to slowdeath of paper magic, thus cutting our opportunity to play the game we love.
Also, I know some people with the following logic: "I have time to do magic+meeting friends, but if separate, I'll have no time for both. That's why I play IRL"

DuxDucis

03-26-2010, 10:23 AM

This way, you have to buy tickets from their store (which costs them nothing), and buy your cards from the dealers or draft terribad blocks (which costs them nothing) to play in the legacy events with pack prizes (which, conveniently, costs them nothing).

MTGO has just a diverse secondary market as paper magic. You can buy tickets through various sources (EBAY etc) or even credit for online only dealers, with just as much inventory as a paper magic store. Aside from the original purchase of the game, you never have to deal with Wizards except to pay tournament entry fees.

I play Pauper on MTGO and Wizard's has never directly got any of my money. Everything was purchased through a secondary source.

caiomarcos

03-26-2010, 10:59 AM

While all those things are true, I think you are missing the point. Online play isn't going to be able to replace the feeling of shuffling your own cards, Hi-Fiving your buddy when you both place in tournaments or chugging down a few beers between matches. What online play does is provides an easy way for players such as myself to play a game they love. You can play a test match, anytime of the day. You can join several tournaments at different times of the day. For someone like me, it provides several opportunities. I think it really benefits the older players who are married with kids and don't have the free time we once did.

Sure online cards are expensive, right now everyone and their brothers are hoarding them in anticipation of Legacy coming online. I wouldn't be to alarmed by this, be patient and the card prices will start to slowly level off.

Part of the problem is that 95% (Made up of course) of the people who complain about Legacy online haven't even played online.

And btw the porn comment has no merit, I would go out on a limb and say that more guys watch porn than actually have sex, or should I say married guys lol!

I totally understand this point of view, like I said, I play some Legacy matches myself during some idle afternoons. I find it great that MTGO gives us players that option, but I'm really sad lately since I realized that it will be the only viable option in some time.

jazzykat

03-26-2010, 11:03 AM

For me, the fun has long been in meeting my buddies, talking smack, and getting out of my home and into a different frame of mind. I play MTG in person because it is fun and I still get a bit of adrenaline going. MWS feels antiseptic to me, and while its fine for testing it can't replace the person sitting across from you.

Cabal_chan

03-26-2010, 11:07 AM

Part of the problem is that 95% (Made up of course) of the people who complain about Legacy online haven't even played online.

It might be because they don't want to be pushed online and have to rebuy everything and lose all the things that irl brings (face to face interaction, actually having the physical cards, etc).

ImpinAintEasy

03-26-2010, 11:41 AM

I totally understand this point of view, like I said, I play some Legacy matches myself during some idle afternoons. I find it great that MTGO gives us players that option, but I'm really sad lately since I realized that it will be the only viable option in some time.

I'm not trying to be a prick here, but seriously do you have a crystal ball?

Look MTGO has been around since what, 2001?

Standard has been available online as well as Extended. Neither of those formats have died in paper.

Bringing Legacy online isn't going to kill paper magic. The reserved list crap isn't going to kill paper magic.

This game is addictive and as long as the game itself is still great, people will still pay money to play.

@Cabal ......no one is forcing people to play online. Saying that you are being forced to play online is almost like saying MWS is killing paper. MTGO won't be as good as paper for the same reasons MWS sucks.

Paper magic will always supercede online play, it simply won't die because it is a better environment in the long run.

menace13

03-26-2010, 12:05 PM

MattH

03-26-2010, 12:20 PM

Ice Age plus duals.

Wrong. The first extended went as far back as Revised (hence the duals, durr. Also Juggernaut was banned! Hot diggity daffodil!) and Fallen Empires (Hymn to Tourach was a major card in the original extended; also, uh, High Tide, lol). I don't know if the Dark was ever part of it. I know Legends wasn't.

ImpinAintEasy

03-26-2010, 12:34 PM

I feel there is a problem with getting a majority of paper Legacy players on to MTGO and a lot of that is the cost. Why should someone that has spent thousnads on this game have to do it again just to play online? I feel WotC can suk a fukin nut on that one personaly, on the Legacy to MTGO thread, I posted U Sea and Tiaga will hit 60 and 40... they did and that was just 14 days ago. FoW is at 80 and just to play something like Countertop costs 1k+. I do not want to hear that bull about(imagine pee-wee herman's voice here) " Oh well, you know, you can just like not play the best spells and lands in the format araghahaa".

This I agree with 100%. We have clanmates who had to sell off some or all of their collection due the economy. Now they can't even dream of reentering the format because of the cost.

I've gone on record saying that if FOW hits 100, I more than likely will sell my playset in hopes of it showing up as a promo or reprint if Worth eats his words.

I also think that these over the top prices are from hoarders looking to prey on new Legacy players hitting the scene. I still think after several several (several) weeks prices will level off. Here is the problem though. These prices will level off at much higher rates than they were in February. Remember, FOW was in the 45-55 category for quite some time. If it levels off at 70 is that really a step in the right direction.

For fun the other day I wrote a list of cards I bought, what prices I bought and what they are worth now. I spent around 1000 on the cards that are now worth 2200. While I am happy my investment worked out, I would gladly trade the short term profits for the long term success of Legacy Online. If prices level off at extremely high prices, WOTC must act to fix the problem. Otherwise, they might as well just stuck with the Classic format and its' small player base.

And not to split hairs with you Menace, but Sea is at 55 currently (albeit none in stock) and taiga is at 30. FOW at 82 for those scoring at home.

caiomarcos

03-26-2010, 12:40 PM

I'm not trying to be a prick here, but seriously do you have a crystal ball?

Look MTGO has been around since what, 2001?

Standard has been available online as well as Extended. Neither of those formats have died in paper.

Bringing Legacy online isn't going to kill paper magic. The reserved list crap isn't going to kill paper magic.

This game is addictive and as long as the game itself is still great, people will still pay money to play.

@Cabal ......no one is forcing people to play online. Saying that you are being forced to play online is almost like saying MWS is killing paper. MTGO won't be as good as paper for the same reasons MWS sucks.

Paper magic will always supercede online play, it simply won't die because it is a better environment in the long run.

I hope you're right, and you probably are. But I know that I won't be getting much more legacy cards for the prices they are now. I have almost all dual, missing like 10 of them, 3 of those are U. Seas. Do you know when I'll get them? Never...

But the sky isn't falling I know, I just fear the future. Meanwhile, let's sling some cards, trash talk and have fun with friends.

Wrong. The first extended went as far back as Revised (hence the duals, durr. Also Juggernaut was banned! Hot diggity daffodil!) and Fallen Empires (Hymn to Tourach was a major card in the original extended; also, uh, High Tide, lol). I don't know if the Dark was ever part of it. I know Legends wasn't.

I believe it was Revised onwards, no Legends, The Dark, Arabian Nights or Antiquities. Then it 3rd rotated out and was 4th onwards + duals

Cabal_chan

03-26-2010, 12:43 PM

ImpinAintEasy

03-26-2010, 01:10 PM

The difference is that WotC supports those formats on paper. It's not supporting paper Legacy to the same degree.

Unless card prices are high enough to prohibit entry into the format. Re: Vintage.

Has WOTC ever supported Legacy:Pants to the degree the players demand? Of course they support those formats more. In their eyes it makes them more money and the last time I checked they are in the business of being profitable. Of course they brought Legacy online as a way to make more money. WOTC didn't last this long by making poor business decisions.

And we aren't talking about Vintage, it doesn't exist online. Classic is the closest we have to Vintage and it's not even in the same ballpark until we see Power online.

I am in agreement that WOTC doesn't support eternal formats. I'm also in agreement that this game is way to expensive online or offline.

The original post said this is ways you can make the Legacy community not be mad at you.

Bringing Legacy online shouldn't make ppl mad. They should embrace the fact that it is another way to play a game we love. People on this site are saying WOTC should reprint cards to help grow the format. Guess what, MTGO helps grow the format.

I would venture to say that not many paper players decided one day to drop 1000 dollars on a new deck. They probably bought cards here and there overtime. How is mtgo any different. I've been playing online for years and just buy a little bit here and a little bit there.

And another thing no one is bringing up is ease of the 2ndary market. I spend as much if not more time searching bots for good deals on cards and then reselling them for profits than I do playing. If you are patient there is a huge opportunity for things like this. Plus if you are into poker at all, it provides a little bit more rush to the game in a whole different atmosphere. For instance, few weeks ago I bought Jace for 32, then not even 5 seconds later resold for 36. Yes I realize it's only 4 bucks, but seriously this kinda stuff happens online all the time.

menace13

03-26-2010, 01:37 PM

This I agree with 100%. We have clanmates who had to sell off some or all of their collection due the economy. Now they can't even dream of reentering the format because of the cost.

I've gone on record saying that if FOW hits 100, I more than likely will sell my playset in hopes of it showing up as a promo or reprint if Worth eats his words.

I also think that these over the top prices are from hoarders looking to prey on new Legacy players hitting the scene. I still think after several several (several) weeks prices will level off. Here is the problem though. These prices will level off at much higher rates than they were in February. Remember, FOW was in the 45-55 category for quite some time. If it levels off at 70 is that really a step in the right direction.

For fun the other day I wrote a list of cards I bought, what prices I bought and what they are worth now. I spent around 1000 on the cards that are now worth 2200. While I am happy my investment worked out, I would gladly trade the short term profits for the long term success of Legacy Online. If prices level off at extremely high prices, WOTC must act to fix the problem. Otherwise, they might as well just stuck with the Classic format and its' small player base.

And not to split hairs with you Menace, but Sea is at 55 currently (albeit none in stock) and taiga is at 30. FOW at 82 for those scoring at home.

What good is it if all the good MED2 duals-Tundra 38,U Sea 55,Taiga 30-are rising in price and not available? Will leveling out include after the events start to fire and prices increase further, cards become scarcer still? I can promise you, after all these DEs and PEs start to fire, FoW will hit over 100, duals will go up another 20 in about 2-3 weeks. The small staples have all increased in about 4-6 weeks- reprinted Crucibles are at 7 from 2 and this was 2 weeks- double to triple in price. Fix is needed now, why do they always wait untill prices are 100 per online? Is it going to take 3-4 months of increase where at least 2 of those months FoW sits at 100+, U Sea 80+ etc.

I know plenty of friends online whom have sold collections and also now can not buy back in, in essence locked out of the format and subjugated to the hell that is anything other than eternal. This occurence must be even more so in paper, why does it even exist online, they can't click more buttons?

loveisgreen

03-26-2010, 01:46 PM

Maybe I just overreacted, but I'm simply afraid of the whole card- hoarding aspect of it. It's SO much easier to do online because everything is at your fingertips. Got enough money? Well then you can probably buy out almost every Force in every bot, wait till demand drives the price through the roof, then dump them on some poor bastards.

What if Legacy becomes a PTQ format online? Multi- format team events? Then we, as a community, have an actual chance to make an impact on the Magic world. To be perfectly honest, I would LOVE to win a trip to Japan or Spain playing the format I've been obsessed with for so long. Pros don't like it? Tough shit. WE had the largest Magic tournament in the history of the GAME. If the online community flourishes and we continue to have record- breaking attendance then maybe, JUST MAYBE, we can get that 4th PT back, and JUST MAYBE they can have a Legacy PTQ season IRL. Since Dreamblade face- planted, I can actually see that happening. Hasbro has to wake up sometime.

Or maybe I'm just getting my hopes up :tongue:

I want to see you all in Columbus.

Eddy Wally

03-26-2010, 02:30 PM

I hope you're right, and you probably are. But I know that I won't be getting much more legacy cards for the prices they are now. I have almost all dual, missing like 10 of them, 3 of those are U. Seas. Do you know when I'll get them? Never...

But the sky isn't falling I know, I just fear the future. Meanwhile, let's sling some cards, trash talk and have fun with friends.

I believe it was Revised onwards, no Legends, The Dark, Arabian Nights or Antiquities. Then it 3rd rotated out and was 4th onwards + duals

It started with dark onward plus revised, the first rotation left us with ice age plus fifth, but the ten duals were also added.

ImpinAintEasy

03-26-2010, 02:49 PM

What good is it if all the good MED2 duals-Tundra 38,U Sea 55,Taiga 30-are rising in price and not available? Will leveling out include after the events start to fire and prices increase further, cards become scarcer still? I can promise you, after all these DEs and PEs start to fire, FoW will hit over 100, duals will go up another 20 in about 2-3 weeks. The small staples have all increased in about 4-6 weeks- reprinted Crucibles are at 7 from 2 and this was 2 weeks- double to triple in price. Fix is needed now, why do they always wait untill prices are 100 per online? Is it going to take 3-4 months of increase where at least 2 of those months FoW sits at 100+, U Sea 80+ etc.

I know plenty of friends online whom have sold collections and also now can not buy back in, in essence locked out of the format and subjugated to the hell that is anything other than eternal. This occurence must be even more so in paper, why does it even exist online, they can't click more buttons?

I hate to say it, but you know WOTC will drag their feet. And you're right, it doesn't do anyone good for prices to continue to rise other than those who seek to make profits on the secondary market.

I love the fact that Legacy is online, but imo they released it way to stinkin' early. It was originally announced that Legacy would be online in Dec. They instead move it up 9 months, probably because of the massive numbers at Madrid. What that did is basically killed anyone from slowly picking up cards between now and December.

If you remember, I wrote a series of articles about Legacy staples on puremtgo. In that article it showed card prices from February, so I am well aware of how much cards have increased. I've also been tracking card prices for 34 different cards since the announcement of Legacy coming online. Some of the statistics are sickly staggering.

Card Name Current Price Price 3-8-10
1. Underground Sea $ 55.00 $ 41.00
2. Tundra $ 37.00 $ 32.00
3. Taiga $ 30.00 $ 21.00
4. Savannah $ 25.00 $ 20.00
5. Badlands $ 21.00 $ 17.00
6. Bayou $ 22.00 $ 18.00
7. Scrubland $ 17.00 $ 15.00
8. Tropical Island $ 35.00 $ 26.00
9. Volcanic Island $ 20.00 $ 16.00
10. Plateau $ 18.00 $ 12.00
11. Lion's Eye Diamond $ 60.00 $ 40.00
12. Mox Diamond $ 36.00 $ 35.00
13. Vindicate $ 24.75 $ 22.77
14. Pernicious Deed $ 23.76 $ 23.76
15. Chrome Mox $ 12.50 $ 12.00
16. Force of Will $ 82.00 $ 64.00
17. Daze $ 10.50 $ 10.50
18. Tarmogoyf $ 55.00 $ 34.00
19. Survival of the Fittest $ 39.00 $ 39.00
20. Manabond $ 15.00 $ 11.00
21. Wasteland $ 19.00 $ 13.00
22. Natural Order $ 36.00 $ 17.00

23. Grindstone $ 13.00 $ 13.00
24. Entomb $ 34.00 $ 18.00
25. Phyrexian Dreadnought $ 26.00 $ 28.00
26. Noble Hierarch $ 13.00 $ 9.00
27. City of Traitors $ 26.00 $ 27.00
28. Grim Lavamancer $ 5.00 $ 3.00
29. Sylvan Library $ 12.00 $ 2.50
30. Stifle $ 5.50 $ 4.00
31. Engineered Explosives $ 15.00 $ 15.00
32. Orim's Chant $ 39.60 $39.60
33. Chalice of the Void $4.75 $4.75

Sorry copy/paste doesn't like me. First price is current as of yesterday, 2nd is price on 3-8-10. I started tracking Orim's on 3-17 and Chalice on 3-25

morgan_coke

03-26-2010, 03:19 PM

Maybe I just overreacted, but I'm simply afraid of the whole card- hoarding aspect of it. It's SO much easier to do online because everything is at your fingertips. Got enough money? Well then you can probably buy out almost every Force in every bot, wait till demand drives the price through the roof, then dump them on some poor bastards.

This actually happened with Pernicious Deed. I can't remember the name, but it was one particular clan that realized just how few IPA cards were online and decided to buy up all the deeds at once. The price went from 18-20 to 80+ in one day. Wizards reallllllly needs to address the scarcity of IPA/OTJ and to a lesser, but still significant extent, the cards from MED1 and MED2 (mainly just force and duals, since those were about the only tourney staples printed in both sets combined), both of which sets were released before anyone even knew if Legacy would ever come online at all.

fregle

03-30-2010, 03:01 PM

I agree largely with Clark Kant. I just don't agree on the unbannings and on reprinting so-called staples that aren't really staples (Entomb isn't a staple, you can make 40+ legacy decks without it). The only things that really NEEDS to be addressed are the duals and the fetches. Address that issue and the rest won't matter as much (with one exception: Tarmogoyf... But even Tarmogoyf doesn't come close to the importance of duals and fetches). Lot's of people will want to add FOW to that list, and I can understand why, but it isn't as expensive or as pervasive as Tarmogoyf.

If you don't address the pricing issue of the duals/fetches, then the number of legacy players will drop again (but not necessarily the price, as the old cards only become scarcer over time). Probably as fast as it has risen the last few months (also keep in mind that the rise in legacy player numbers isn't as dramatic compared to the rise in standard and casual players, but the dropouts are just as numerous in comparison, maybe even more so, as legacy players are older on average and have more responsibilities in their daily lives). The number of players will drop as more and more will get frustrated that they can't get or can't pay for the duals and the fetches (which severely limits their options to play tournaments or build the optimal build of their favorite deck, much more so than any other so-called legacy staple, except for Tarmogoyf and maybe FOW). When the numbers drop (notice that I didn't say 'if' but 'when', it is happening with Vintage now) the prices could drop too. If popularity for eternal formats drops then the amount of important tournaments will drop too, and both those issues could then have a compound effect on prices (Madrid shows very clearly what the impact of big tournaments is on prices and popularity). Maybe, just maybe, it will become a rise/fall curve like the angelsaxon economic model we all live in. But people can't step out of the economy, they can however step out of magic... Of course, this might take another 10 years before we really start seeing the effects. Or it could become like baseball cards, where demand just keeps getting higher compared to the supply, come hell or high water... And that is what wotc is betting on at the moment imo (it certainly would keep most people happy, and would have the least impact on their overall business). They saw that their player numbers rised enormously the last year without addressing any price issues, so of course they will bet that staying the course is the best option.

edit: I might have exagerrated a bit here... When I say that it isn't necessary to reprint anything except the duals then I don't mean to say that I believe that they shouldn't reprint anything else. Anyway, I thought of a better solution to the problem, that might not scare the collectors/resellers as much and might get the attention of wotc... Allowing generic proxies (with normal borders for the kind of card it is, but no art) of cards that are worth over say... $50 (average taken from the 20 biggest resellers) in sanctioned tournaments. Prices might drop initially, but never under $50, and there will be more demand as the format becomes more accessible... That in turn will cause the prices to rise to their initial point and probably even beyond, all the while keeping the players happy. And wotc can keep selling booster boxes as proxies are not allowe for cards under $50. Don't get pinned down o that amount though, $50 is just off the top of my head.

edit2: I also want to add that I don't have a vested interest in this opinion, I too play magic since 1994, I too have paid 5-10 euros for my duals, I even got some of them from revised boosters when I started playing. I have a playset of Tarmogoyf, that is now worth double what I paid for it, I can build a house with my ice age brainstorms and I have paid 1,5-2,5 euros each for the 2 FOWs I had to buy to finish my playset, because that was what you paid for a good uncommon at the time alliances was on the market... But I want to see new players able to have the same pleasure as me playing the game in the most exciting format it has to offer...