New Dual Land Cycle Idea

[arebennian]

So.
I claimed in the 'Revised Reprint Policy' thread that Wizards would make a viable Dual land in the next 5 years. There was a massive thread on Salvation about what the new M10 Duals would look like, but I don't really want to dig that up for their ideas.
So for now, after some quick thinking, here is what I came up with.


Not Quite Tundra
Land: Plains
t: Add W to your mana pool
t: Add U to your mana pool


What do you all think of this idea?
Anyone got anything better?

[xTrainx]

How about:

Deep Underground Sea:
Land - Swamp Island
T: Add U
T: Add B
T: Add (1)

[arebennian]

How about:

Deep Underground Sea:
Land - Swamp Island
T: Add U
T: Add B
T: Add (1)

Too close to a dual without a downside. They won't functionally reprint anything.

[dyzzy]

Not Quite Tundra
Land: Plains
t: Add W to your mana pool
t: Add U to your mana pool
You either (1) have a seemingly arbitrary land type for each pair (eg. why is Not Quite Tundra a Plains, not an Island?) or (2) need twice as many land to complete the cycle (have two for each pair) which takes up way too much space.



Deep Underground Sea:
Land - Swamp Island
T: Add U
T: Add B
T: Add (1)
This is strictly better than the original cycle so it definitely won't happen.

The most likely scenario (besides not printing a new cycle) is something akin to the Ravnica duals. Honestly, I'd be fine with Painlands that had basic land types.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

How about "Goblin Guide style?" ...Observe:

Bayou Boogaloo:
Land- Swamp Forest
:tap: :g:
:tap: :b:
When "this card" comes into play, target opponent may look at the top card of his or her library. If it's a land card, they may reveal it and put it into their hand.

Boom. Negligible downside. Interesting enough to cause some interactions (and obviously terrible against 43lands, but hey whatever).

Personally, I wouldn't have too many qualms playing with something like that. And I don't personally think WotC should have too many qualms about printing dual lands on that power level, when you use how freakin' insanely good some of the creatures they've been printing recently are as a point of comparison.

[Nidd]

UW Dual
Land: Island Plains
T: Add W to your mana pool
T: Add U to your mana pool
When ~ enters the battlefield, each opponent may gain 1 life.

Tadaa!

[clavio]

These are able to be played alongside the normal duals. No good.

[tyleredw]

These are able to be played alongside the normal duals. No good.

Why is that relevant?

It would only matter in vintage and legacy, since extended and standard can't play with dual lands so they'd be by themselves. And in the formats where it would matter, how is it any different than shocklands? The goal of this exercise is to create a comparable, yet clearly slightly worse set of dual lands.

Currently we have duals, and for the people that can't afford them, we have shock lands, which are equally fetchable and only have a small downside. For the people that play duals anyway, having both existing wont make a difference as the new ones wouldn't be played, as they're strictly inferior, just like shocklands.

[from Cairo]

These are able to be played alongside the normal duals. No good.

So are Ravnica Duals and they see absolutely zero play. In current Legacy with 10 fetches and 10 duals already at one's disposal, I don't really think having a second set of subpar duals would matter that much. 3+ color decks would much rather have Fetches or Rainbow lands, depending on the deck, so they really only might see play along side OG duals in 2 color decks.

Most two color decks can function fine with something like 4x allied fetch (ie: Misty Rainforest), 2-4x primary color dual (ie: Polluted Delta/Flooded Strand/Scalding Tarn), 4x allied dual (ie: Tropical Island), a couple basics (maybe 2 Islands, a Forest), and a few utility lands Wastelands, Mishra's, Academy Ruins, w/e.

Does it really effect deck building if they could additionally run something like Nidd's suggestion? You might see some decks running them along side the OG duals, but mostly in Legacy they'd probably function as budget alternatives, as intended.

[arebennian]

You either (1) have a seemingly arbitrary land type for each pair (eg. why is Not Quite Tundra a Plains, not an Island?) or (2) need twice as many land to complete the cycle (have two for each pair) which takes up way too much space.


Yes. Arbitrary but needed. Perhaps you could also give yourself or your opponent a boost based on the land type selected.
E.G.
Plains = Gain one life.
Blue = Scry 1.

I think you could spread it out over 5-6 years, you wouldn't have to stick them all in the one block. After all, they only printed allied fetches to begin with.

[clavio]

I would say that the shock lands have quite a large down side. Fetch->shock me-> thoughtseize = 1/4 of my life total. Id say that the poor bastards running shocklands in legacy wont even consider running thoughtseize.

[puppektion]

Honestly, I don't see them introducing a new cycle of dual lands (with basic land types, of course) until the shock duals cycle out of extended, kind of like how they introduced the Zen-fetches after the Onslaught ones cycled out. This will also make sure that fetch lands and duals aren't in the same standard.

I would absolutely love to see a new cycle, but they know they need to watch out for the formats that make them the most money. If standard turns into the format with $200+ manabases, it will drive people away; they know this.

[(nameless one)]

I would actually love to see the M10 dual lands with proper land types

[T-101]

Sea under the ground

Land - Island Swamp

T: U
T: B

This enters the battlefield tapped if it's your first turn.

No denying that there is a downside. However, it's tolerable.

[Shursh]

We have murmuring bosk already.

Murmuring Tundra
land plains
when ~ etb, reveal white or blue card from your hand, or ~ etb tapped instead
tap to add W
tap to add U, ~ deals 1 damage to you

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

No one wants to play clearly suboptimal cards. If the cards can't compete with duals on their own they won't do anything; we already have playable but worse substitutes.

The only replacements that have ever worked are fetchlands, and they just reduce reliance on duals. If you were to make a cycle of new duals that didn't suck, I suspect they'd look something like;


Boreal Forest
Land- Island Forest Plains


or

Peatlands
Land- Swamp Mountain
~ comes into play tapped unless you reveal a red or black card from your hand.
2(R/B), T, Sacrifice Peatlands: Destroy target creature with toughness three or less.*


*or, "When ~ comes into play, it deals 3 damage to target creature that was dealt damage this turn". Or whatever. Some marginal benefit that offsets the marginal drawback.

But either of these, while not strictly better than old duals, would threaten to obsolete them, thus upending the entire purpose of the reserve list. Not that I'd complain that much. Fuck it at this point.

[MMogg]

Although I don't really like this thread because I think they either need to punt duals or make inferior ones, I will nevertheless contribute:

http://i560.photobucket.com/albums/ss48/MMMoggg/ProstitutesKnee.jpg

[xTrainx]

I liked the lifegaining ability listed before. Maybe make it 2 life, just so it can cause an impact in standard.
Or the - check the top card, if it is land, put it into your hand.

Of course, they could just reprint these 'worse ones', and just ban all of the old duals. Except that would = cataclysm.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

We already have inferior duals. See: filter lands, shock lands, pain lands, M10 lands. Alara Tri-lands. All of these are playable if real duals weren't available. The problem is that real duals are available and playing Karplusan Forest over Taiga is just scrubby.

[Nessaja]

I think that I'd rather play basics then shockduals (best next thing). Basics + Fetches go a long way.

[xTrainx]

I might play 2 shockduals, in case I was fetching without needing the mana that turn.

[4eak]

I'd be happy with an improvement across the board on color smoothing; although, I'm also not afraid of appropriate bumps in the power curve (which some may consider too much of an improvement). I am all in favor of tri-color lands, particularly tri-basic land type. For those who think they need a draw back, why not make them Legendary? For 2-color decks, you could pick up one of each in your colors, giving you 3 different Legends to in your 2 colors, or 7 different Legends in your 3 colors. Mana-denial strategies would still be very powerful, but at least manabases would be less a barrier into competitive eternal Magic.





peace,
4eak

[stuckpixel]

I really think that - especially in light of the reserve list reprint policy changes - we'll be getting some legacy playable duals soon. The design I've always thought would be servicable is the following:

------------------------------------------------------------
Fundra

Land - Plains Island

~ enters the battlefield tapped unless you reveal a blue or white card in your hand.
------------------------------------------------------------


Shocks generally hurt way too much to be viable. 'Fundra' would be clearly worse than the original duals, but it'd still be playable. I'd also be fine with M2010 duals, modded to have basic land types, and enter tapped unless you control _another_ plains or island.

[gravemind123]

I do hope they come up with something usable in place of the original duals to keep cost down. The problem is that during the stay of those duals in Extended if they are better than Shocklands and in Standard if Fetches are still around, you will end up with their prices likely being crazy, which won't really help to lower barrier to entry at first, although post-Standard they would hopefully go down to reasonable levels or at least help the old duals drop a bit in price, or even just stop their climb.

At the same time they would hopefully print some new non-basic hate, perhaps a Wasteland-like land that is better than Tectonic Edge. Perhaps print Price of Progress/Back to Basics style card but as part of a cycle where each color gets one anti-nonbasic card to help balance out the increase in playable mana-fixing.

[Mayk0l]

Anything short of the original duals won't work. If they print duals that are worse than the original ones, people will want the original ones. Nobody plays Steam Vents when they could play Volcanic Island.

[Some Guy]

Anything short of the original duals won't work. If they print duals that are worse than the original ones, people will want the original ones. Nobody plays Steam Vents when they could play Volcanic Island.

thanks , I still wasnt sure. as that was only said like 10 times on the previous page of this 2 page thread.

[majikal]

What the fuck is everyone smoking? Ban the duals? Seriously? Never! Dual lands are part of the reason I even play Legacy in the first place. If I don't have somewhere to play my old cards, no matter how expensive they get, I will not play at all.

The best solution is to print something slightly inferior, but not so inferior that it isn't workable. However, posting your ideas in a thread isn't going to go anywhere, because the people at WotC are legally obliged to stop reading when the topic of card ideas comes up.

[Some Guy]

the people at WotC are legally obliged to stop reading when the topic of card ideas comes up.

is this stated somewhere ?

[Angelfire]

I posted these in another thread.

A few ideas and note these don't necessarily need to be basic land types for fetching, Kird Ape etc...

New Dual Land - An alternative painland, would also make mill slightly more viable.
Swamp Mountain
Whenever <this> becomes tapped, exile the top four cards of your library.

New Dual Land 2 - Kind of like a fetch land.
Mountain Forest
As <this> enters the battlefield choose Red or Green. <This> can only produce the chosen color.

New Dual Land 3 - Encourages multicolor deck building without allowing for these 3-5 color monstrosities. My favorite option.
Forest Plains
Mana can only be used to play Green, White or Colorless spells and abilities.

New Dual Land 4
Plains Island
Don't feel like formatting this ability. Basically cannot produce the same color twice in a row.

New Dual Land 5
Island Swamp
Enters the battlefield tapped unless you control the same or less lands than your opponent.

[xTrainx]

I like this idea the best. Very innovative, not a huge drawback, but gives your opponent an idea of what you have.

[majikal]

is this stated somewhere ?

http://www.wizards.com/MagiC/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/mm/66

A lot of people seem to think the door to design is to show off cards you've designed. This avenue tends not to work for several reasons. One, I and the other designers, for various reasons, are instructed to not look at amateur card designs, so if you send me your homemade card set to my email or mail it to Wizards in a box, I can't look at it. Two, what I need to know more than anything else is how a card designer thinks. I can get that from card designs but it takes me a lot longer than listening or reading the person just talk about design. Three, it's hard to surprise me. I've been designing cards a long time and even if we haven't printed them yet, I have seen a lot of different cards and mechanics.

In a nutshell, the reason is so that they don't look at a design, go "oh that's neat," forget about it later, and then "design" it for a future set unintentionally. Because, you know, intellectual property laws and all that.

[android]

Yeah, I would say just reprint the original duals as Mythical Legendary but then not only would I have to buy four originals but now I'm in it for originals, fetches AND the new pricey Legendary.

I'm really against reprinting duals but I think because the formats that currently play them are typically fast or play cheaper spells we could get away with less permanent or more fragile lands. In that other thread I proposed the duals that could sac for the second color ala lotus petal or the ones that were one land type but could sac to fetch a basic of the second color untapped. I think those duals would be hot yet still be slightly less powerful than the original duals (or more powerful in rare circumstances).

I think the lands I proposed were something like:

Landslide - forest
tap: G
tap sac: search your library for a basic mountain put it into play untapped

or

Lava Raft - mountain island
tap: R
tap sac: U

Reading back over those it seems we could have 20 of each instead of just 10 (more-so for the first type) due to the ability to transpose the colors. With regular duals it would be redundant to switch the colors around but with either of these designs, it would be entirely possible.

[majikal]

I really wish they'd print something like this, since we're all playing this game anyway:

Barren Wood
Land - Mountain Forest
Whenever you tap Barren Wood for colored mana, put a depletion counter on it.
As long as Barren Wood has a depletion counter on it, it produces colorless mana instead of its normal type.
T: Add one colorless mana to your mana pool. Remove all depletion counters from Barren Wood.

[MMogg]

Oh how I'd love to see a cycle of indestructible duals or cycling duals. C'mon R&D, punt those old duals. I know, never gonna happen.

Another option in the weaker than duals category is to make them legendary.

[dahcmai]

Can you imagine something like this?

Squee's Tundra
land: Plains / Island
when ~ etb, Flip a coin, if you lose it comes into play tapped, if you win, it comes into play untapped
Tap to to add W and U

Be amusing as hell to see what happened with it. Ancient Tomb on crack with luck.

[Sevryn]

Soggy Meadow
Island Plains
T: Add :w: to your mana pool
T, pay 1 life: add :u: to your mana pool

Sinking Sandbar
Island Plains
T: Add :u: to your mana pool
T, pay 1 life: add :w: to your mana pool

[Skeggi]

You could also print Triple Lands from Alara but with types.

Bant

Forest Plains Island

~ comes into play tapped.

T: Add G, W or U to your mana pool.


You could fetch it eot without too much downsides.

[Maveric78f]

Submarine forest

Forest Island

~ etb tapped.
(
When ~ etb, you may play an additionnal land this turn.
OR
When ~ etb, you may put a land on the battlefield from your hand.
)

Not strictly worse than dual lands. Not too broken neither and can be very interesting to fetch it at end of opponent's turn for a surprise acceleration.

[manugl84]

I think it would be good a cycle of duals without land type. For example:

New g/w dual
Land
T: add g or w

You can´t fetch it, but I think it´s very good

[Skeggi]

Submarine forest

Forest Island

~ etb tapped.
(
When ~ etb, you may play an additionnal land this turn.
OR
When ~ etb, you may put a land on the battlefield from your hand.
)

Not strictly worse than dual lands. Not too broken neither and can be very interesting to fetch it at end of opponent's turn for a surprise acceleration.

Turn 1: Fetchland, eot, crack for Submarine Forest, drop a Tropical Island from your hand; use Tropical to cast Brainstorm for extra brokeness.
Turn 2: Drop land, have 3 mana. Pretty sick since you can fetch to it.

[Maveric78f]

It's good when you have other lands. But it's bad when you don't. So I don't know. You could also have :
When ~ etb, you may put a land tapped on the battlefield from your hand.

[jrsthethird]

Soggy Meadow
Island Plains
T: Add :w: to your mana pool
T, pay 1 life: add :u: to your mana pool

Sinking Sandbar
Island Plains
T: Add :u: to your mana pool
T, pay 1 life: add :w: to your mana pool

These are terrible...

Doesn't anyone understand that having a basic land type means that your land can tap for that color with NO RULES TEXT? Look at the Oracle text on dual lands...there is no rules text. Shocklands have reminder text, which isn't necessary.

What you're saying is that you can either tap for U and pay a life, or you can tap for U and not pay a life...these are strictly better than the old duals since they give you the option of punting your own life total (actual relevant play: You're at 6, your opponent is at 10. You tap to lose a life, cast Pulse of the Fields, and go to 9. You're still lower, so you get the Pulse back. If you hadn't lost the life you wouldn't have gotten it back.)


Lava Raft - mountain island
tap: R
tap sac: U

So you can tap for U, or you can tap and sacrifice for U? Strictly better again, since you might want to be able to trigger a Knight of the White Orchid or Weathered Wayfarer (or Land Tax in casual), or pump a KotR/Terravore.

Painduals I think are the best option (with City of Brass text), and we might see them in a couple years once shocklands rotate out of Extended:

Caverns of Koilos
Land - Plains Swamp
Whenever CARDNAME becomes tapped, it deals 1 damage to you.
T: Add 1 to your mana pool. Prevent the next 1 damage that would be dealt to you by CARDNAME.

This might be a little too powerful for Extended (definitely better than shocklands), but removing the colorless mana makes them worse than shocklands so you could go either way, but for the purposes of this thread I left it in because these would definitely be Legacy playable. Also, templating the ability is weird because of the basic land types automatically granting the colored mana.

[Sevryn]

These are terrible...

Apologies. How about:


Soggy Meadow
Plains
T: Add :w: to your mana pool
T, pay 1 life: add :u: to your mana pool

Sinking Sandbar
Island
T: Add :u: to your mana pool
T, pay 1 life: add :w: to your mana pool

[4eak]

I still think those are still terrible. If WotC was to print a reasonable alternative to dual lands, they need to be fetchable/landcyclable/count for both types.





peace,
4eak

[arebennian]

Why?

It just forces you into playing a particular type of Fetchland/landcyclable/count and limits your ability to find basics to some degree, depending upon your mana base and the gamestate.

Sure, it isn't optimal, but there has to be some sort of drawback.

I think this is a fair one without making them as worthless as shocklands nor pissing on the reserved list by making a better Dual land or a functional reprint.

[Cthuloo]

I don't want to go OT, but I'd rather think the way to go could be to print more intelligent non-basic hate. Just think at Dragon Stompy: it's a monocolored deck made viable mainly by the presence of Blood Moon (with and without legs). A Back to Basics on legs could be an easy and straightforward way to apply the principle. But I would also like some "reverse kird ape", like a 1/1 for :g: that gets +2/+2 if you control only forests. Just throwing in some other ideas (the templates may not be perfect, these are just some rough suggestions):

BBB
Sorcery
Destroy all nonbasic lands. Each player loses 1 life for each of those lands he or she controlled.

B
Sorcery
Each player sacrifices a nonbasic land.

1GG
Creature
At the beginning of each player upkeep #Creature# deals X damage to that player, where X is the number of nonbasics he or she controls
3/4

2G
Enchantament
Basics produce double mana when tapped for mana.

1R
Creature
Each time a player plays a nonbasic, #Creature# deals 2 damage to him/her.

OR

Each time a nonbasic becomes tapped, #Creature# deals 1 damage to the land controller.

2/1

2W
Creature
Each time a nonbasic becomes tapped, the opponents of the land controller may gain 1 life.
2/2

1UU
Enchantament
During his/her upkeep, each player sacrifices a nonbasic.

I don't know if these are too strong or too weak, but I think there's plenty of space for more ways to circumvent the problem, encouraging players to play monocolored decks and thus lowering the request for duals.

[android]

So you can tap for U, or you can tap and sacrifice for U? Strictly better again, since you might want to be able to trigger a Knight of the White Orchid or Weathered Wayfarer (or Land Tax in casual), or pump a KotR/Terravore.

I think it's pretty clear what I intended. When it says "tab sac:" sacrifice is part of the cost. I'm not trying to make replacements for the original duals, nor am I trying to make them better or worse. The templates I proposed are simply designed to be balanced and playable in eternal formats. I want cards that I would include in a variety of decks. They could print them all as Legendary for all I care, I would still include them in a deck.

Also, to say that X is too powerful because it makes KotR bigger is ridiculous. This is what magic is all about. For some decks losing lands to the gy is bad, to others it's good. I certainly don't think it would suddenly make such strategies dominant.

The criteria should be; provide at least 2 colors of mana, be searchable, provide a drawback that can also be used as an advantage in some cases. That's called balance.

Let's compare:

Original Duals:
Pros: Searchable(2), provide 2 colors/land types, permanent
Cons: Non-basic hate

New Duals A:
Landslide - forest
tap: G
tap sac: search your library for a basic mountain put it into play untapped

Pros: Searchable(1), provides 2 colors, you can trigger landfall x 3 with a fetch->new land->basic
Cons: only searchable as one land type, second color comes at the expense of the first (no going back), non-basic hate

New Duals B:
Lava Raft - mountain island
tap: R
tap sac: U

Pros: Searchable(2), provides 2 colors
Cons: Second color comes at the expense of the land, non-basic hate

I had a dream last night that they printed duals like this:

RB Superland - mountain swamp
tap: R
sac:BBB

WU Superland - plains island
tap: W
sac: Brainstorm

See where I'm going with this? Fucking Awesome! OK, it was a dream. Obviously never going to come close.

[Eddy Wally]

Hello, long time lurker, first time poster here.

The best thing Wizards could do with the reprint policy as it is today imo would be to (re)print A LOT of nonbasic hate. Both Back to Basics and Wasteland could easily be reprinted, and every colour could get some form of nonbasic hate.

I wonder if they played with the idea to make legendary duals. I'm pretty sure something like 'legendary bayou' would be legal to reprint. It does not have the exact same card type. Realistically, some form of ice age painlands with the basic subtype may be the best we can hope for.

[MattH]

Man, legendary duals is the worst idea ever. Did none of you get Strip Mine'd in Kamigawa block enough?

[Anusien]

You people may not realize, but giving a land a subtype automatically lets it tap for that mana.

So something like this:

WU Superland - plains island
tap: W
sac: Brainstorm
Doesn't work. It automatically taps for W or U before you look at the text.

Underground Sea literally has a blank text box in Oracle. http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?printed=false&multiverseid=184752

[android]

For the sake of clarity in this discussion, it seems to make more sense to detail it. If you want to get all minimal and simplistic, your going to have alot of monkey bumping going on in the thread and we'll spend more time directing people to Wizard's template than having a worthwhile discussion. So if you, sir, wish to diagram you cards as such, it is at your own peril. I bid thee adieu.

[Anusien]

For the sake of clarity in this discussion, it seems to make more sense to detail it. If you want to get all minimal and simplistic, your going to have alot of monkey bumping going on in the thread and we'll spend more time directing people to Wizard's template than having a worthwhile discussion. So if you, sir, wish to diagram you cards as such, it is at your own peril. I bid thee adieu.
Yes, forgive me for pointing out that some peoples' ideas literally just don't work. My bad, I forgot to book my ticket to fantasy land. Please continue.

[pi4meterftw]

Yes, forgive me for pointing out that some peoples' ideas literally just don't work. My bad, I forgot to book my ticket to fantasy land. Please continue.

Shh... some people don't like to know they're wrong. They usually go under the guise of "relativists" where they pretend that everybody can be right in their own reference frames, whatever that means.

[Eddy Wally]

Man, legendary duals is the worst idea ever. Did none of you get Strip Mine'd in Kamigawa block enough?

That's the idea. Trying to come up with slightly worse, but still playable, substitutions for duals. A legendary dual would say 'you can fetch it, you'll have your colours, but prepare for a lot of strategical fetching in the mirrormatch.'

[android]

Yes, forgive me for pointing out that some peoples' ideas literally just don't work. My bad, I forgot to book my ticket to fantasy land. Please continue.

You're already there. Anyhow, I see what you are saying now about a land having the subtype that it would automatically tap for that color where I was trying to detail a land that had the subtype but did not tap for the color. I didn't read your post clearly enough and was misunderstanding it as you suggesting that the "tap: R" was excessive detail on my part. Anyhow, it's clear to me now how apparently these would not work if Wizards says the lands always produce mana appropriate to their subtypes. I suppose that limits most of the brainstorming we are doing.

Perhaps a card could have the subtype along with a clause:

Stupid Land - Island Mountain
If ~ is tapped for U, sacrifice ~

Is that how the proper wording should be?

[Sevryn]

You're already there. Anyhow, you bring up an interesting point. If the subtype defines the color produced, why then do cards like Dryad Arbor have reminder text detailing the tap for green mana? Likewise with Murmuring Bosk. These are relatively new cards and I would assume the oracle text you're referring to was updated prior to Lorwyn being printed.

Well, as reminder text, the card would function identically without it. It's just noobs (like me) would be confused.

[MattH]

That's the idea. Trying to come up with slightly worse, but still playable, substitutions for duals. A legendary dual would say 'you can fetch it, you'll have your colours, but prepare for a lot of strategical fetching in the mirrormatch.'

The problem is that it won't just be the mirror. If everyone is playing Legendary Tropical, I'll put one in my Zoo deck so I can fetch it out on demand and thus have ~9 Strip Mines in my deck.

[4eak]

The problem is that it won't just be the mirror. If everyone is playing Legendary Tropical, I'll put one in my Zoo deck so I can fetch it out on demand and thus have ~9 Strip Mines in my deck.

Your example would really be closer to 9 chances to draw/fetch the single, very narrow LD card in your deck, not 9 strip mines in your deck. You really want multiple LD effects in your deck to make that strategy effective, even for a blazing fast deck like Zoo, and a singleton Legendary won't fulfill that requirement.

Zoo, of course, would be slightly hurting its own mana-base and even opening itself up to LD from time to time. Not every Zoo deck plays Wasteland, I'd have a hard time believing every Zoo deck would be splashing for a blue dual on the chance that they can hit a newer/poorer Legacy player's manabase. There would be plenty of times, particularly against veteran (well-collected) Legacy player's manabases, where a blue dual was not what you really wanted.

This wouldn't be the same as strip mine for tons of reasons. There is more strategy to it than you've implied as well. Legendary rule abuse is quite targeted. Those playing the Legendary duals which you didn't target would get away scott-free. Many players and decks wouldn't run Legends at all, even given the possibility of LDing an opponent.

I would prefer there wasn't Legendary status at all. However, I think WotC and collectors aren't reasonable enough to accept a fresh printing of regular duals in some form (or better), and I'm willing to accept a compromise. Legendary has a lot of baggage that goes with it, but I consider it one of the few drawbacks that would still allow the hypothetical duals to be seen as a real alternative to the original duals.






peace,
4eak

[Volt]

Esper Tri-land
Island
T, pay 1 life: Add :b: to your mana pool
T, pay 1 life: Add :w: to your mana pool

And so on. 1 allied tri-land for each basic land type.

[Skeggi]

Esper Tri-land
Island
T, pay 1 life: Add :b: to your mana pool
T, pay 1 life: Add :w: to your mana pool

And so on. 1 allied tri-land for each basic land type.

I thought about this option too. I like it. It's balanced enough and very Legacy viable. I would like to see the cycle complete with the enemy versions too. Something like

Intet Tri-land
Island
T, pay 1 life: add :r: to your mana pool
T, pay 1 life: add :g: to your mana pool

[jrsthethird]

I thought about this option too. I like it. It's balanced enough and very Legacy viable. I would like to see the cycle complete with the enemy versions too. Something like

Intet Tri-land
Island
T, pay 1 life: add :r: to your mana pool
T, pay 1 life: add :g: to your mana pool

Maybe we could have something like...

Murmuring Bosk 2
Forest
T, pay 1 life: add :w:
T, pay 1 life: add :b:

[Skeggi]

Maybe we could have something like...

Murmuring Bosk 2
Forest
T, pay 1 life: add :w:
T, pay 1 life: add :b:
Yeah, without the 'show a Treefolk' that card is very playable. I considered the original as a 1-of in The Rock, but normal duals are still better because of the CiPT clause.

[eq.firemind]

Maybe instead of new duals we need some good cards that don't work well with original duals?
Something like reversed domain:

Green Beater :1::g:
Creature - Cactus Mutant
Green Beater gets -1/-0 for each basic land type among lands you control
5/4 (maybe 5/5)
4/4 for 2 mana is IMHO pretty good and you can still play another color using all that bad duals.
If we could have some good cards with mechanics like this, maybe it's possible build to a deck that don't want fetch+dual manabase.
Also, it's a possible way to bump monocolored decks and that can't be bad...

[Skeggi]

That's an original idea, but I'm afraid it won't work. When printing new cards, Wizards should not try to force new archetypes, but support the existing ones. They know this and shown it by printing Lodestone Golem. Also, people want to play more colors, so they have more options, more complexity. I am entirely in favor of a Cactus Mutant ever to be printed.

[Mictlantecuhtli]

Sure... but just imagine Cactus Stompy in the DTB forum :laugh:

[Eddy Wally]

Here's an idea I just had. Why not just simultaneously reprint wasteland AND a set of shockduals, identical to those of ravnica, but with one little keyword added: shroud. Lots of new players would get their hands on wasteland, which would be in just about every deck. In such a metagame, the classical duals would no longer be 100% strictly better than the new shroudy shocklands. Do you start with a lower lifetotal, or do you expose yourself to manadisruption?

[kariido]

Maybe we could have something like...

Murmuring Bosk 2
Forest
T, pay 1 life: add :w:
T, pay 1 life: add :b:

That would be good, maybe too good for WotC to print. A slightly inferior version would be these two:

~
Forest
T, pay 1 life: add :w:

or

~
Forest Plains
Whenever ~ is tapped for mana ~ deals 1 damage to you

[Malchar]

We just need more power creep until the old duals are garbage. This has always been the solution. For example, why not tricolor duals with basic land types and no drawback? In order to keep things balanced, we just need a 2-for-1 double wasteland and all our problems would be solved.

[Aleksandr]

Here's an idea I just had. Why not just simultaneously reprint wasteland AND a set of shockduals, identical to those of ravnica, but with one little keyword added: shroud. Lots of new players would get their hands on wasteland, which would be in just about every deck. In such a metagame, the classical duals would no longer be 100% strictly better than the new shroudy shocklands. Do you start with a lower lifetotal, or do you expose yourself to manadisruption?

I like that idea.

[Holiday]

There's a lot of good ideas for how the new duals can operate but they don't have any names!

Luckily I was bored today at work so I did some research and tried to come up with some types of terrain that have never been used. I also tried to stick with single word names like the original duals have.

This is just for fun, but let me know if there are some obscure lands that already have similar names to these:

Guyot = (U)(R)
This is an underwater mountain volcano

Tarrace = (R)(W)
Incas farmed these in the Andes

Abyssal Plain = (U)(B)
I don't like how it has two words but what is blacker and more watery than this?

Meander = (U)(W)
This is a very flat plains area with a very large amount of slow moving water winding through it.

Carr = (B)(G)
A European Bayou

Mangrove = (U)(G)
There might already be a card that is like Mangrove Forest if I remember right. I was also considering Kelp Forest for this one.

Gully = (R)(B)
A degenerate area of a mountain due to ground water.

Dell = (R)(G)
Mountain Forest was the hardest one. Even wizards has trouble with this and they make up shit like "Stomping Ground" and "Karplusian Forest". A dell is like a slope on the side of a mountain leading down to a valley that is usually forested. Krummholz was another option for this, but that more describes the type of trees that live on mountains rather than any specific terrain.

Parkland = (G)(W)
Grassy area with a good amount of trees.

Dambo = (B)(W)
A flat wetland area full of various grasses.

[Craft]

Forest of Frowns
Forest Swamp
t: G or B
If Forest of Frowns would enter the battlefield from a library, it enters the battlefield tapped.

Aaaaand scene.

[xTrainx]

Forest of Frowns
Forest Swamp
t: G or B
If Forest of Frowns would enter the battlefield from a library, it enters the battlefield tapped.

Aaaaand scene.

Worse than Ravnica duals. Ravnica duals at least give you the choice to have them enter untapped. The only time it's better is if you play from your hand - and fetching is half the game.

[Craft]

Worse than Ravnica duals. Ravnica duals at least give you the choice to have them enter untapped. The only time it's better is if you play from your hand - and fetching is half the game.

Obviously the "worse than" argument can be applied here, but why not look at it as a compliment to the Rav duels? If this thread is for finding an outright replacement for the original duels then I'm chasing my tail. The thinking was that the rav duels offered nothing in the way of support for the originals and are rarely played in conjunction, so how to support the rav duels?

Basically play these from hand and fetch the rav duels when you need them now. But I could be wrong in my templating, perhaps reversing the tapped clause to "If this would enter the battlefield from your hand..."?

[Meekrab]

The absolute minimum drawback I can ever see WotC printing a new set of duals with is "Target opponent may Scry 3" or "Target opponent draws a card". This "pay one life:solve all your mana problems" malarkey is never going to happen, its way too good.

[Mr.C]

I am all in favour of

Iceland
Snow Mountain Island

Voila! Problem solved!

[xTrainx]

Here's an idea I just had. Why not just simultaneously reprint wasteland AND a set of shockduals, identical to those of ravnica, but with one little keyword added: shroud. Lots of new players would get their hands on wasteland, which would be in just about every deck. In such a metagame, the classical duals would no longer be 100% strictly better than the new shroudy shocklands. Do you start with a lower lifetotal, or do you expose yourself to manadisruption?

Genius. I really like this idea.


I am all in favour of

Iceland
Snow Mountain Island

Voila! Problem solved!

This won't happen, because Wizards has no fucking backbone.

[puppektion]

This won't happen, because Wizards has no fucking backbone.

I lol'd. And yet, so true.

[kicks_422]

Gully = (R)(B)
A degenerate area of a mountain due to ground water.


Isn't Gully more U/G? Because of, you know, Fern Gully.

[Holiday]

A gully is a landform created by running water eroding sharply into soil, typically on a hillside. (Wiki)

Wouldn't be blue, because there is no water to be found, just makes the soil kinda swampy.


Fixed:

Iceland

Snow Island Volcano

When Iceland enters the battlefield, tap all creatures with flying.