Gifts Thopters

[Anusien]

I know Doug Linn already posted his Gifts Thopters list on SCG, but I don't think it's the right approach to go. I think Thopters is an amazingly hard to beat strategy. I don't want to screw around with cute Punishing Fire tricks when I could just be winning the game instead.
This is loosely based off LSV's Extended Gifts-Thopters idea. Originally it had much more of a Gifts toolbox, but more and more I discovered that most of the plays the deck had were inferior to just setting up Thopters and going. There's still a few singletons to throw into Gifts piles, and because they can be backbreaking on their own.

1 Academy Ruins
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
2 Seat of the Synod
3 Island
4 Plains
3 Ancient Den
1 Ancient Tomb
3 Chrome Mox

4 Force of Will

3 Spell Pierce

3 Engineered Explosives
2 Humility
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Vedalken Shackles
1 Repeal

4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Brainstorm
4 Gifts Ungiven
3 Thirst for Knowledge

1 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek
1 Tezzeret the Seeker

1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Argivian Find

The mana: The deck runs a ton of basics if that's your thing. You actually have steeper white mana requirements than blue, so there are more white sources than blue by two. There's a reasonable case to be made for more Ancient Tombs to speed the deck up (just have to balance Tomb + Island + Seat of the Synod against WW for many cards). I want to minimize the number of lands that don't do anything right away, but playing out an Academy Ruins and getting it Wastelanded is somewhat of a concern. If this is likely in your metagame, find a second Academy Ruins. The artifact lands are kind of awkward, but you need them for Thirst for Knowledge and Tezzeret's Ultimate (otherwise you have trouble finding 20). There aren't actually a whole lot of Wastelands running around, but having that many nonbasics can be a problem.

Spell Pierce is basically better than Spell Snare in every way imaginable. You have a ridiculously good lategame plan, so Pierce being late isn't really a concern. With 4 Plow 1 Elspeth 2 Humility 1 Shackles 1 Pulse, you don't really care about Snare being able to hit Tarmogoyfs and such. Being able to Pierce Natural Orders and Elspeths is actually pretty awesome.

Repeal used to be Elspeth #2, but the curve is absurdly high so I'm working on bringing it down.

Humility is exciting. Remember when people would run this card and the beatdown decks couldn't win? Imagine the satisfaction of doing that to a Progenitus.

[arebennian]

I think this is about the 4 or 5th thread opened on the subject in the last 3months.
Have a look through the 'New and Developmental' for more ideas.

[TFD]

Except for when someone names thopter with their engineered plague.

[Anusien]

Plague basically sees less play now than it ever would. But if they do, you've got Elspeth and Tezzeret as extra kill conditions.

[hi-val]

I think you want more copies of the combo or another Ruins/a Crucible of Worlds. I find that it's really, really slow to have to find out how you're going to get Thopter Foundry into play when your first one got countered.

Pierce looks pretty cool!

Do you run Elspeth to be just a Good Dood or something else? I'd be inclined to want something like another Tezzeret and a Noetic Scales/Meekstone/Ensnaring Bridge. Alternately, you could throw in an E-tutor instead.

[Anusien]

I like having more threats. Elspeth is a very good one because it can play both sides of the ball.

[hi-val]

Did you get a chance to check out Smutty's T8 Indy Thopter list? That's where I'd really get work done with this archetype...

[nodahero]

The one thing I really dislike about Smutko's list is the triple Chrome Mox. I have not gotten to do any real testing but I feel that there has to be a better method then essetnailly adding a few legacy staples to an Extended deck... Perhaps I am mildly bitter that he got success but... card disadvantage in a control list in such a powerful format seems bad.

[arebennian]

To those who have actually tested the Thopter Engine...

Is the Gifts version really any better than a Counterbalance one?

Undefeated Day One Madrid GP
Carlos Santiago
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/gpmad10/day1undefeated

[Anusien]

You already win going long. If you run Counterbalance, you also end up vulnerable to it.

Just casting draw spells to assemble Thopters seems like a losing proposition. Being a blue control deck that actually wants to lock up the game and win slowly seems like a mistake. I'd rather just win.

[arebennian]

Just casting draw spells to assemble Thopters seems like a losing proposition.

1 mana tutors that act like psudo counterspells sounds pretty hot to me.

[4eak]

If you don't add Crucible, another Thopter, and the additional Ruins, then I highly suggest splashing Green. Life from the Loam, Regrowth, and Eternal Witness are all excellent inside Intuition and Gifts packages. I particularly like how green can work not just in your Gifts for the combo, but also how green excels in more flexible Gifts packages (which you will pickup from time to time).




peace,
4eak

[Nidd]

If you don't add Crucible, another Thopter, and the additional Ruins, then I highly suggest splashing Green. Life from the Loam, Regrowth, and Eternal Witness are all excellent inside Intuition and Gifts packages. I particularly like how green can work not just in your Gifts for the combo, but also how green excels in more flexible Gifts packages (which you will pickup from time to time).




peace,
4eak
Sounds like you're suggesting some kind of Bant Loam with Thopter Foundry in it. I think this can get very interesting, but doesn't fit in here.

[Anusien]

Another Academy Ruins is a fine idea. Another Thopter Foundry might be right, I'm not sure. I had a Crucible, and it was 100% a blank. You have 1 land in the entire deck that does more than make mana.

On reflection, there's a reason LSV doesn't run Crucible in 1.x. It doesn't do enough.

[hi-val]

Kevin, regarding layers, does Tezz's animation overcome Humility? I'm sure it does, I just want to check; ramping Tezz to Ultimate is probably a fine enough alt-win.

[Anusien]

Tezzeret v Humility comes down to timestamps. If Tezzeret was activated later (which is a duh), then yes, Tezzeret wins.

[4eak]

@ Nidd


Sounds like you're suggesting some kind of Bant Loam with Thopter Foundry in it. I think this can get very interesting, but doesn't fit in here.

I disagree. I think suggesting the splash for Green, given that my other conditions were not met, was a very proper suggestion for this deck. This is a Gifts deck (which means you build around it); and it just so happens to use Thopter as its primary win/control combo. As far as Gifts goes in Legacy, Green is a standard color. Deckcheck will show you that 24 out of the 27 decks which play Gifts also splash for Green. Green's recursion is powerful, especially when coupled with cards like Gifts Ungiven and Intuition. Additionally, green brings more than recursion--lots of cards open up which are fairly powerful in this format. In my opinion, it is up to the innovator to give good reasons why green should not be played a Legacy Gifts deck, as it is traditionally a worthy splash. It isn't like the deck doesn't have room in the mana-base to splash either.

Of course, I am open to the possibility that green shouldn't be played. I tried to phrase it (perhaps I failed) as a secondary option to redundancy and colorless/in-color recursion options. Perhaps you can provide better reasons to dismiss my suggestion or more support for your claim that 'it doesn't fit in here'.


@ Anusien


Another Academy Ruins is a fine idea. Another Thopter Foundry might be right, I'm not sure. I had a Crucible, and it was 100% a blank. You have 1 land in the entire deck that does more than make mana.

On reflection, there's a reason LSV doesn't run Crucible in 1.x. It doesn't do enough.

From what I understand, extended decks do not face non-basic hate or stack-control (permission, Chalice, CB) in nearly the same quantity or quality as found in Legacy. Crucible, clearly, would not be as important in such a metagame. Legacy, however, requires more outs to these control elements than your decklist provides, and Crucible may be a necessary evil for this deck in the overall Legacy metagame. A wasteland, a loss in a counterwar, GY-hate, or a well-timed DE effect puts this deck at risk. In its current form, you may find yourself ramping upto a Gifts, and then toppling over as your opponent answers it (which is what happens when someone knows you're playing this decklist).

You absolutely cannot afford to play less than two Thopter foundry's; if you aren't adding green, I think you'll must add a second ruins; and, since the deck is still in its infancy, I still think we should try Crucible (yet again).

I have to admit, I'm still a bit disappointed by the deck. It has decent control of decks that use the ground in a fairer fashion, but frankly, the combo decks of Legacy (ANT, Dredge, Reanimator) are very difficult matches. My worry is that the deck is just a tad too slow (as Gifts decks often are) for the metagame, even with the mana acceleration. Speeding it up comes at the cost of consistency and card advantage though, and I don't know if we can afford those losses.





peace,
4eak

[Anusien]

Most Gifts decks that exist run Green because they Gifts into Life from the Loam. This is such an awkward plan, and it's built far differently than those decks. To say "Add Green because every other Gifts deck does it" is patently ridiculous. It's like saying "Add Counterbalance to ANT because every other deck with Top does it."

Actually, Ghost Quarter is somewhat prevalent in Extended, as was opposing Academy Ruins. Not the same way Merfolk does it, but Merfolk is basically the only deck that runs 4 Wasteland anymore. (Okay Stax does, but Stax isn't a real deck.). I think there may be a case for the 2nd Academy Ruins or the second Thopter Foundry. Both seems like a bit of a waste. Yes, there are probably some tricky situations you can get into where you need both. But the goal is to find the maindeck configuration that does the best against most situations, and fill the extra slots with good cards. Merfolk doesn't have the ability to Wasteland + Disenchant Thopter Foundry. No deck really does.

I find it funny that your problem with the deck is that it can't beat, so you claim, ANT, Dredge and Reanimator, and your answer is to add more slow cards to the deck. Even if you're right, beating all the fair decks game 1 and having like 10 cards to address ANT, Dredge and Reanimator seems like a great plan.

[daPaule]

but Merfolk is basically the only deck that runs 4 Wasteland anymore. (Okay Stax does, but Stax isn't a real deck.)

Goblins, Canadian and Aggroloam just from the decks to beat, adding at least Dreadstill to that list seems fair to me, although it's no deck to beat (in my meta it is).

My problem right now is more that i'm just used to gifts in vintage and so i'm struggling with a gifts pile that let's you actually win with this deck.

[4eak]

@ Anusien


Most Gifts decks that exist run Green because they Gifts into Life from the Loam.

18/24 of Gifts decks which played green (on deckcheck) play Life from the Loam (meaning, 25% don't). Eternal Witness is played in 19/24 of Gifts decks which played green. I'm not so sure Loam is the primary reason for green (although it is a very good one); obviously, green has applications outside of Loam.


This is such an awkward plan, and it's built far differently than those decks.

Remember what I said above, Loam clearly isn't the only plan enabled by splashing green. It is merely one of many possible plans opened by splashing green (some of which may be less awkward in many situations). I also think Gifts is an awkward card itself, but for its cost (and perhaps a splash of green in many cases), you can gain a great deal of flexibility.

I'll agree that it isn't just some rock deck; in the broad scheme of things though, this deck hinges on Gifts enough like its brethren that it likewise may benefit from green. It is worth testing. The deck isn't built in such a way that it can't play green either. A few changse in the mana-base (and you wouldn't even need to remove your basics) could easily open it up.


To say "Add Green because every other Gifts deck does it" is patently ridiculous. It's like saying "Add Counterbalance to ANT because every other deck with Top does it."

Please note my original post, where I said you should either add Thopters/CoW/Ruins, or in lieu of that, you could try green. I wasn't claiming you absolutely must play green because other Gifts decks do--it was actually a secondary suggestion with some support behind it. It was Nidd who suggested that I was aiming for a different archetype (Bant Loam), which I wasn't, because I'm definitely talking about Gifts; he also said that the color green doesn't fit into this deck. My reply to him (which is what you've taken out of context in your quote above) was meant to show that Green is hardly outside the scope of a Legacy Gifts deck.

My primary argument to Nidd is that green is a standard color in Legacy Gifts, that I'm not confusing my archetypes, and that green really could fit here (as it has for so many Gifts decks).

Don't overstate my argument either; I'm not saying you absolutely must play green. I do think you should have a good explanation for its omission though. It isn't "patently ridiculous" to consider that the only Gifts decks (excepting 3) which have placed in tournaments (according to deckcheck) have splashed for green. Green could easily be a good call in this deck. Many have tried to build a good Legacy Gifts deck, only a few have had any success at all. Perhaps building upon what has been shown to have some results (as sparse as they might be) is a worthy endeavor.

Also, please try to give relevant analogies--your Counterbalance/SDT/ANT analogy is akin to a straw man. Sensei's Divining Top is not nearly as deck defining as Gifts Ungiven. As I said before, Gifts is a card you build a deck around. SDT, on the other hand, is not. We should pay even closer attention to the cards played alongside Gifts than we should to the cards played around SDT because Gifts Ungiven defines its decks moreso than Top defines its decks.


Actually, Ghost Quarter is somewhat prevalent in Extended, as was opposing Academy Ruins.

I know almost nothing about Extended. Browsing through deckcheck (which may be a poor repository, I don't know), Land destruction and Stack control do not seem nearly as prevalent in extended as it is in Legacy--and, just as important, many of these effects which see play in Legacy are substantially more potent than those played (or even available) to Extended. The difference in both quality and quantity was the main reason why one would not play CoW in Extended and might in Legacy.


Not the same way Merfolk does it, but Merfolk is basically the only deck that runs 4 Wasteland anymore. (Okay Stax does, but Stax isn't a real deck.).

I'm not trying to be picky here, but you've left out a ton of decks which play Wasteland. In the DTB forum, you'll see a bunch "real decks" which always play Wasteland:

Tempo Thresh
Goblins
Aggro

Also, I can point you to examples/variants which have played Wasteland in these archetypes (also from the DTBForum):

Bant
Countertop (yes, even here!?)
Zoo
Survival

I'm not even including a list of other decks which aren't considered in the top tiers here (such as White Stax).

Wasteland is in the top 5 cards played in Legacy. Don't try and pass this card off as just something that Merfolk plays. You must build decks with Wasteland in mind, and acting like Ruins will only get hit occasionally by a Wasteland is naive (despite the fact that you can force a single activation through wasteland in many cases).


Merfolk doesn't have the ability to Wasteland + Disenchant Thopter Foundry. No deck really does.

I won't list the archetypes, but here are very real possibilities you need to consider:

Wasteland + FoW or Spell Snare or Spell Pierce or Counterspell (as rare as it might be)
Wasteland + Counterbalance trigger
Wasteland + Chalice@2
Wasteland + Qasali Pridemage
Wasteland + EE
Wasteland + Goblin Tinkerer/TSH
Wasteland + Burning Wish->Artifact Destruction



I find it funny that your problem with the deck is that it can't beat, so you claim, ANT, Dredge and Reanimator, and your answer is to add more slow cards to the deck. Even if you're right, beating all the fair decks game 1 and having like 10 cards to address ANT, Dredge and Reanimator seems like a great plan.

I think it is Gifts that has the problem in general. I don't think you'll be curbing the 'slowness' of Gifts anytime soon (as much as I find the 'perfect Legacy Gifts deck' to be a holy grail). I think you have to throw these matches--which also means I don't think Gifts can viably be a broadly viable deck. If we are willing to assume the handicap against specific metagames (in other words, avoiding those), then we might as well continue to tailor the deck in a specific direction. Green, of course, may be one of those paths.


@ daPaule


My problem right now is more that i'm just used to gifts in vintage and so i'm struggling with a gifts pile that let's you actually win with this deck.

An example Gifts for the 'meat and potatoes' (err...Thopter and Sword) might be:

Academy Ruins
Argivian Find
Thopter Foundry
Sword of the Meek


peace,
4eak

[Amon Amarth]

I've been playing around with a U/W Gifts list recently. My list is constantly in flux but I've found out a few things.

I'm really happy with 2 Enlightened Tutors. Obviously, being able to search up your singletons is invaluable and can often allow you to forgo the need to use Gifts entirely to just find one piece of the combo.

My manabase is more basic-y than yours because I roll out with Back to Basics in my SB because its badass and I don't really care for the cute tricks with Tezz (who I don't run at all). Crucible has been OK in testing but I'm not sure if it's that important when the only true non basic in my deck is 1-2 Academy Ruins.

After FoW I'm not happy with some of the counters because the deck is so White heavy that Counterspell is too slow. Spell Pierce would be good if I can get the aggro matchups under control. I'm considering Mana Leak because it's much easier to cast and almost always a hardcounter. Speaking Aggro decks, I think I'm going up to 2 of each Sword/Foundry because that's the best thing to do early against Aggro decks is Combo out.

[Anusien]

How many win conditions do you have? Are you at risk of not being able to win if Sword gets Extirpated?

[Amon Amarth]

I'm currently testing:

2 Sword
2 Foundry

1 Elspeth
1 Shackles

I'm not worried about Extirpate at all. the decks that I'm concerned about beating CBT, Zoo and Merfolk don't play the card or Black at all for that matter. IMO it's not a factor in most metagames. If it was though I could see the logic in running Tezz or another Elspeth or something else entirely.

I'll post my decklist once I get it more solidified; it's still all wonky. I think the deck is good and it's not really the win conditions that concern me but trying to find the right amount of removal, countermagic and tutors.

[grahf]

So I played a Countertop'ed version of Thopter Combo in a local tourney today...
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?16836-CounterTop-Thopter&p=442153&viewfull=1#post442153

... And was thoroughly underwhelmed by the Counterbalance approach. "Deck schizophrenia" is the best way I could describe the feeling of never being able to set up either Countertop or Thopter/Sword when I wanted to. So count me a convert to the single-minded approach to this deck. I won when I was able to cast Gifts for the combo, and floundered when I didn't; the difference was pretty stark.

4 Enlightened Tutors may be slightly too many without Counterbalance, but at least two seems good, to find Humility more often if nothing else. That card is just so damned good that it seems shame to leave it stranded in the deck with some way to tutor for it.

Something I'm wondering about is the optimal ratio of Thirsts versus artifacts to pitch. My list had 12 artifacts total for 2 Thirsts, and it didn't feel like enough of either. Anusien's has 14 for 3 Thirsts. The SCG Top 8'ing list has 16 for 4 Thirsts. Incidentally, I'm at a loss to explain or understand many of the card choices in that list.

[Oiolosse]

Not to be too naive but including dark depths + hexmage seems pretty strong. I know y'all aren't running black but hexmage can be useful in other ways as well..dicking around with chalice, stax, jitte, opposing planeswalkers, new level up cards (although they seem underwhelming for legacy), etc...

What else does black offer?

[Anusien]

Matt is going a long way toward convincing me that Jace, the Mindsculptor is better than Tezzeret the Seeker. Which is half the reason I had so many artifacts. Is there something that fulfills some of the role of Thirst for Knowledge? Could easily cut the artifact lands fix up the manabase...

[grahf]

So continual Brainstorming, board control, and costing 1 less is better than tutoring half the combo out immediately? I'll admit I haven't tested new Jace...

Thirst could conceivably be replaced with things like Dark Confidant, Standstill, and Intuition, although each carries its unique set of drawbacks. Or just play Ponder and lower the mana curve a bit.

After initially discarding it, I'm liking the "Thopter-still" approach again, something along the lines of this list looks pretty good: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?9280-%5BDeck%5D-UW%28x%29-Landstill&p=440346&viewfull=1#post440346

[nodahero]

A close replacement would probably be Compulsive Research. You lost the Instant and get the ability to replace Artifact with Land as the required discard.

ATM I really do like Sacher's list although the constant low hand count is a bit disturbing... I like having options IN HAND.

[Anusien]

So continual Brainstorming, board control, and costing 1 less is better than tutoring half the combo out immediately? I'll admit I haven't tested new Jace...
Seems that way. It costs less, warps your deck more, and is a legitimate kill on its own. Tezzeret probably just tutors up Sword of the Meek and bites the dust. Jace can win the game on his own.

[MattH]

Matt is going a long way toward convincing me that Jace, the Mindsculptor is better than Tezzeret the Seeker. Which is half the reason I had so many artifacts. Is there something that fulfills some of the role of Thirst for Knowledge? Could easily cut the artifact lands fix up the manabase...

I tried Ancestral Visions once. I don't recommend it.

Tez was Fabricate+Fog for 5cc way too often (or even just Fabricate if I was dead on board!). Speaking of which, if Fabricate was one mana cheaper I would be playing that as a four-of, that effect is ridiculous.

[Anusien]

I'm strongly considering just going back to Impulse. Rich Shay makes the argument that Ponder is better than Impulse. Compulsive Research has to be better than Ponder. Uncertain how it compares to Impulse though.

[wolfmanisu]

I understand that a singleton Vedalken Shackles can be searched for and that makes it appealing, but do you find that you have enough islands to be able to steal the creatures that you want to? With only 7 islands, it seems that this strategy would come on-line too late to be of any real use.

[Anusien]

This is a valid concern, and one reason why I'm trying to get the artifact lands out of the deck in favor of real lands.

[Anusien]

Are there any matchups where you'd want Repeal over Spell Pierce besides Zoo and maybe Merfolk?

[nodahero]

@Anusien: I could see an argument for Repeal in alot of situations being relevant. I think the easier question is what matchups would you rather have pierce in. The only two that come to my mind really are CounterTop and Combo.

[Anusien]

Is there a reason to play TfK or Compulsive Research over Sensei's Divining Top?

[Amon Amarth]

So I got around to solidifying my list and I've been happy with the results so far.

Mana-23
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
1 Academy Ruins
3 Tundra
3 Chrome Mox
6 Islands
3 Plains

Disruption-14
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Humility

Draw/Tutors-16
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Gifts Ungiven
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Crucible of Worlds

Kill-7
2 Sword of the Meek
2 Thopter Foundry
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant

There is still room for improvement. The second Jace can probably become another Elspeth or something else but it's been good for me. I don't like having too many topdeck tutors so I only run two ETs. I haven't found a good replacement for the Counterspells but I'll just go with them for the time being. Spell Snare has been pretty good but it's just too narrow for me, same with Spell Pierce. It's frustrating.

Before I forget, I only have one Gifts because it's really slow and I only want to cast it once. I have lots of cantrips to filter through cards and find my 1 or 2-ofs.

[smutko]

here's the list i used to win a volcanic island (placing 6th in the mirkwood cup, losing an unfortunate match to aggro loam, who i maintain lucked his way through to the semis, though there were undoubtedly misplays involved.)

Creatures
2 Trinket Mage

Planeswalkers
2 Tezzeret the Seeker

Spells
4 Force of Will
3 Gifts Ungiven
4 Spell Snare
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thirst for Knowledge

Artifacts
2 Chrome Mox
1 Crucible of Worlds
3 Engineered Explosives
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Pithing Needle
1 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Sword of the Meek
3 Thopter Foundry
1 Tormod's Crypt

Lands
2 Academy Ruins
1 Ancient Den
4 Flooded Strand
8 Island
4 Plains
1Seat of the Synod
1 Tolaria West
1 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
1 Wasteland

Sideboard
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Godhead of Awe
1 Meddling Mage
2 Oona, Queen of the Fae
1 Path to Exile
1 Pithing Needle
1 Relic of Progenitus
3 Spell Pierce
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Trinket Mage
1 Wrath of God

i wrote up a lot more on it, but the post got deleted when i went to submit it and my internet connection had flicked out. so i'll just say that you should try playing it before you change anything, and if you can't win with it, you're probably doing it wrong.

[SMR0079]

here's the list i used to win a volcanic island (placing 6th in the mirkwood cup, losing an unfortunate match to aggro loam, who i maintain lucked his way through to the semis, though there were undoubtedly misplays involved.)

Creatures
2 Trinket Mage

Planeswalkers
2 Tezzeret the Seeker

Spells
4 Force of Will
3 Gifts Ungiven
4 Spell Snare
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thirst for Knowledge

Artifacts
2 Chrome Mox
1 Crucible of Worlds
3 Engineered Explosives
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Pithing Needle
1 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Sword of the Meek
3 Thopter Foundry
1 Tormod's Crypt

Lands
2 Academy Ruins
1 Ancient Den
4 Flooded Strand
8 Island
4 Plains
1Seat of the Synod
1 Tolaria West
1 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
1 Wasteland

Sideboard
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Godhead of Awe
1 Meddling Mage
2 Oona, Queen of the Fae
1 Path to Exile
1 Pithing Needle
1 Relic of Progenitus
3 Spell Pierce
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Trinket Mage
1 Wrath of God

i wrote up a lot more on it, but the post got deleted when i went to submit it and my internet connection had flicked out. so i'll just say that you should try playing it before you change anything, and if you can't win with it, you're probably doing it wrong.

Hey Peter,

I hate it when that happens...

SO I was goig to talk with you about this in person but I imagine most people have similiar questions. I'm dying to hear your process and logic for cutting the sacred cow Brainstorm. Also, the absence of Jace, even as a sb card for control mirrors.

[nodahero]

I think the more relevant question is what was his expected meta... I don't understand why someone would play Spell Pierce and fore go Jace outside of a combo meta and I doubt the meta was such.

[SMR0079]

The absence of JAce needs explainin, but Spell Pierce should be obvious. You need a way of interating with combo when they go off on turn 2 on the play, and it doubles in your control match.

[smutko]

there might be a role for jace in the deck, but i'm not sure what it is, and i'm not sure it's in the maindeck. i think most of the time i'd rather cast gifts at 4 mana, and if you're not using it as a win condition (ie threatening the ultimate), then it's like an upgraded top for 4x the mana cost. i'm not saying i'd never play it, but i'm saying i'm not itching to get it in the deck. it's probably worth trying though. it might be a better alternate win condition than oona (though i'm not sold on that yet, as oona's still huge and ends games quick and makes blockers too).

spell pierce comes in against stax/storm, and is incredibly vital to the storm matchup. you need a certain number of counterspells to avoid getting blown out, and there are only 7 in the main.

i dont play brainstorm because i don't play that many fetches, it sucks to get locked out of a game by counterbalance and overloading your deck with 1's does that, and because in a way i'm building more for flexibility than consistency. that is, brainstorm helps your deck do the same things every game, but i don't think this deck's gameplan is proactive enough for that, especially when they bring the hate g2. when you want to find goyfs and friends to beat down with, brainstorm is fantastic. when that's not so much your gameplan, brainstorm isn't actually card advantage, and i can't find room for it in the deck. i'd also rather play more tops than add brainstorms.

[SMR0079]

there might be a role for jace in the deck, but i'm not sure what it is, and i'm not sure it's in the maindeck. i think most of the time i'd rather cast gifts at 4 mana, and if you're not using it as a win condition (ie threatening the ultimate), then it's like an upgraded top for 4x the mana cost. i'm not saying i'd never play it, but i'm saying i'm not itching to get it in the deck. it's probably worth trying though. it might be a better alternate win condition than oona (though i'm not sold on that yet, as oona's still huge and ends games quick and makes blockers too).

spell pierce comes in against stax/storm, and is incredibly vital to the storm matchup. you need a certain number of counterspells to avoid getting blown out, and there are only 7 in the main.

i dont play brainstorm because i don't play that many fetches, it sucks to get locked out of a game by counterbalance and overloading your deck with 1's does that, and because in a way i'm building more for flexibility than consistency. that is, brainstorm helps your deck do the same things every game, but i don't think this deck's gameplan is proactive enough for that, especially when they bring the hate g2. when you want to find goyfs and friends to beat down with, brainstorm is fantastic. when that's not so much your gameplan, brainstorm isn't actually card advantage, and i can't find room for it in the deck. i'd also rather play more tops than add brainstorms.

Now that I've played with the deck a bit, I understand the lack of Brainstorm, it's just a difficult thought to get your brain around. I wrecked ThopterBalance the other day and it really impressed me. Even after he had the soft lock I was able to resolve thirsts and a Gifts at one point and eventually got rid of counterbalance with EE. I like a single Jace in the board, but I'm not sure if it's better then Oona.

I noticed the list you made top 8 with a SCG Indy had maindeck Paths. What made you change the design? I found myself wishing I had just a bit more removal in game 1 agasint Zoo and Folk. The Goblins match seems miserable though - any suggestions?

[smutko]

i just couldn't find many swords at the time, and figured they were basically interchangeable. one thing that list did have going for it was the total 4 swords effects + 1 wrath in the main. if you want to beat goblins, you need wrath of gods, the explosives just don't do enough here. humility or moat could work too, i suppose. i went with a godhead for the most recent tournament because it doesn't get blown up by the krosan grips most people are probably boarding in. but goblins can't do anything about enchantments anyway, so you might as well, and godhead sucks against piledrivers.

so, if you're worried about aggro decks, i'd take out tormods crypt/chalice of the void (whichever you run in that spot), and bring in a 4th swords, and then in the sb, i'd take out the godhead for a humility/moat/wrath. you could also just put a wrath main for the surprise factor, and leave the 4th swords in the side.