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Arrowni
03-22-2010, 01:32 PM
Very well, I wanted to display my latest "invention" which has been developed the last few weeks mostly testing online and getting fine results all around. The principle is that from the old Rifter deck, who ran its course back in the day when goblins still were considered the deck to beat, and was considered a hate/metagame deck. My first experiences came out negative, when I found out most of the tools white used to stop the opponents were too slow or no longer effective, and even bombs like Elspeth came often way too late to be relevant. I decided to make a new deck altogether focusing in Lightning Rift as well as a new obvious card that did not exist back in the Rifter days and its a house on its own: Life from the loam.

My experience with Loam decks made me choose black as the third color, because Raven's Crime is a very powerful combination and black is only second to blue when it comes to control options. The blue route of this deck is left to be tested, but I'm afraid it has too little board control to be of any real consequence in a zoo oriented meta. Here is the version I'm currently using:


Black Rifter


// Lands
3 [R] Badlands
4 [ON] Barren Moor
3 Bayou
2 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
1 [ALA] Forest (3)
2 [BD] Swamp (1)
1 [PLC] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
3 [TE] Wasteland
1 [P2] Mountain (3)
2 [EVG] Tranquil Thicket

// Creatures
2 [FUT] Tombstalker
3 [ON] Undead Gladiator

// Spells
3 [FNM] Chainer's Edict
2 [PLC] Damnation
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
3 [OD] Innocent Blood
4 [RAV] Life from the Loam
4 [ON] Lightning Rift
3 [AP] Pernicious Deed
2 [9E] Phyrexian Arena
3 [EVE] Raven's Crime
3 [LRW] Thoughtseize
2 [ARB] Maelstrom Pulse

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [ARB] Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
SB: 3 [MM] Unmask
SB: 3 [DK] Maze of Ith
SB: 3 [PLC] Extirpate


[B]Why do I run this?

This deck has an excellent matchup against tempo UGW and merfolk thanks to the heavy amount of removal you pack. The Lftl engine gives you recurring Wastelands which can destroy zoo once you stabilize -which will happen as long they don't pack too much burn-, other aggro decks without burn are utterly lost against you too. The control matchup is likely to lean on your favor thanks to Lightning Rift, which is very hard to remove and nearly unstoppable with lftl and undead gladiator. Like most controlish loam decks your ability to compete with combo is impaired, but you can fall down in your discard and hate to steal some games. All in all, this can be a powerful metagame deck with much better options that those of the original rift to switch between one strategy and another.

Your strengths

My build focuses in two important aspects: Making creature removal irrelevant by playing an alternative kill and Raven's Crime to clean the path before playing your big threats, and restricting you opponent's board using wasteland and discard while you build up card advantage. Almost every card you run can net you some tempo/card/virtual card advantage which will make less prepared decks run out of options quickly while you keep gas in hand most of the game. The deck has a deceptively simple game plan, is very redundant and plays with powerful cards without ever depending in a simple strategy.


Your weaknesses

This deck comes close to be a pure control deck, which means is very hard to out-speed pretty much anything. There are some aggressive hands to it, but not consistently enough, and rarely they pass through removal. Your combo matchup is abysmal, specially with graveyard related strategies which will appreciate a timely Raven's Crime, not exactly the kind of thing you want to hear when Reanimator is blossoming -but you still have one of the best colors to graveyard hate them out of the game-. Elspeth can single-handly win the game against you if you cannot resolve Maelstrom Pulse. The goblin matchup depends on who has the most mana denial. Price of progress has the annoying ability to own you.


Why Lightning Rift?

Its fair to ask if Lightning Rift brings enough to the table to use this deck instead of another Loam variation, starting by the fact you run a whole color just to use it. In truth, LR is a reliable alternate win condition that's very compact -nothing forces you to run 4 nor to use the gladiator slots, loam decks already run cycling lands-, powerful on its own, pretty hard to remove and useful most of the time -shooting you opponent into the dome is rarely negative-. Its the kind of card which lean both control and aggro matchups to your favor, and those are exactly the kind of decks you're trying to beat by playing this.


Card choices.

Manabase: You have a relatively healthy set of lands, enough cycling and wastes to pass through and I even threw out a few basics in case things go wrong. Depending on how much non-basic hate you expect you may want to switch some of your cycle lands to forgotten caves and cycle through blood moon effects. I haven't faced much wastes besides in the goblin matchup, so the count I'm running is working very well.

Wasteland: Wins games. People should play it more.

Tombstalker: Fast clock, effective, easy to delve thanks to dredge so it normally costs 2. Evasion is golden. Your prime way to go aggro.

Undead Gladiator: Has cycling. Can switch useless cards in your hand for little investment. If the opponent doesn't play white is very hard to get rid of him. Three of power can be a dangerous clock when backed with lightning rift. The only cycling card I run apart from lands. One of the cards you can use if you dredge them away.

Chainer's Edict: Cheap removal that kills Progenitus and flashbacks for card advantage. Can be used if dredged away.

Damnation: Kills armies, Progenitus and has no ill effect on your board most of the time.

Engineered Explosives: Good to remove pesky enchantments, artifacts, doubles as creature removal and makes you resistant to pithing needle naming Pernicious deed.

Innocent Blood: A cheap answer to early threats and Progenitus, just in case we don't kill the guy enough already.

Lftl: Drawing engine, recurs wastes, resistant to countermagic... Actually I feel stupid explaining this.

Lightning Rift: Spot removal and win condition that comes relatively early and its hard to shut down for your average deck. It makes you win even more card advantage when you use Lftl. I run four because you dredge them away often enough and at times you kill them with your own removal cards.

Pernicious Deed: The strongest non-tarmo green card in the deck. You run it because its stupid strong. You don't run 4 because its incredibly mana hungry and at times even Damnation will be cheaper. Again, is kind of stupid to explain why this is good.

Phyrexian Arena: A house against control, alternate draw when Lftl is indisposed. Its hard to remove, dodges counterbalance and survives Pernicious Deed most of the time but you can kill it with it if life loss gets you in trouble.

Raven's Crime: Below average early, an absolute house once Lftl gets going. You can use it when dredged away.

Thoughtseize: Gives you the edge against control early, gives you hope against combo, and is one of the strongest turn one plays you have. Late in the game, just discard it with Undead Gladiator.

Maelstrom Pulse: Another powerful way to get rid of whatever they send at you, specially useful against Elspeth.

Krosan Grip: I don't play it, but is a solid option if somehow they are countering Pulse, Deed and explosives. You're likely to have creature removal anyways.

Gigapede: Can be used if dredged away, keeps pinpoint removal useless but its kind of expensive and doesn't cycle.

Lightning Bolt or other burn: Since you're running red already you can pick other removal, they may help you finish off the opponent fast but otherwise they don't seem all that compared with removal at your disposal.

Terminate: You can play it if you like spot removal better, but needing to have red kind of sucks.


Sideboard Choices

Maelstrom Pulse: In match-ups with relevant artifacts or enchantments. You can side them in for the Phyrexian Arena when facing red aggro.

Tarmogoyf: In combo matchups where you need a faster clock this guy does what he does best in every deck -turning sideways-. Its actually easy to clear the path for it with all the removal you have. Can be side in against decks who don't have good removal against it or where the advantage of not playing creatures is minor. Just don't play it against board control decks and you should be fine. (Not having it maindeck can make this deck a sort of budget option -even thought duals aren't budget in any sense-, but you still need something to have a faster clock against combo or you roll and die).

Unmask: Against combo. You have so many dead cards in your deck that removing is not going to matter anyways, so you may as well do it.

Extirpate: Against combo and graveyard based strategy. Good to follow up a first turn Unmask. It screws with Reanimator in a good day, so whats not to love?

Maze of Ith: Against blue decks without many threats, can make you hold onto life long enough to destroy your enemy with Lightning Rift.

REB/Pyroblast: You have a relatively good match against non-combo blue decks, but I guess these are options in case you're scared of Show and Tell or Mystical Tutor.

Duress: Kind of like Unmask.

Choke: Strong card but your match against blue is already good.

Blood moon: It hoses you, but helps in the lands matchup.

Destructive Flow: Its in your colors so if you don't mind winning without lands its all fine and dandy.

Pithing Needle and other generic cards: You can always specialize depending in what you expect to face in your meta. Life gain can be a plus if you want to improve your zoo/goyf slight matchup.



Match ups


The deck is undergoing testing, but the results are pretty similar to other loam-control decks so its not hard to figure out how things will go. Just from my own testing:

Great matches: Merfolk, Tempo Threshold/counterbalance, low-threat vial decks, blue control and most aggro control.

Good matchups: Zoo (without too much burn), Goblins.

Bad matchups: Combo, burn decks and reanimator.


I will be making a more focused testing against tier decks later on with the additions and comments I get from this thread. Hopefully you'll find this deck as interesting as I do :wink:

Oiolosse
03-23-2010, 05:58 AM
3 Raven's Crime seems entirely redundant. The card is fantastic but horribly useless in multiples.
4 Lightning Rift? Another horrible multiple. Also, with only 6 cycling (don't assume LftL is active) cards I can't see how this is even partially utilized. With EE, Pernicious Deed and damnation I don't think lightning rift is needed. It's the only red you run so opening yourself to non-basic hate for lightning rift is silly. Possibly -4 lightning rift +2 tombstalker +2 pulse?

Arrowni
03-23-2010, 09:06 AM
You can simply add + 1 Thoughseize, -1 Raven's Crime if you feel its too redundant. Lightning Rift in the other hand is awesome in multiples :eyebrow: -flame javelins that cannot be countered for B2 are good-.

Undead Gladiator can come from graveyard to reuse Lightning Rift when needed, you have a total of 9 cyclers, trying to use much more would thin the deck's effectiveness at board control. Lightning Rift could be run in less copies, but I use four partly because the goal of the deck is to test it as an alternative kill condition, neither of the cards you mentioned are reliable -or at all- kill conditions. So far it has proved itself.

Red offers me sideboard cards aside from LR, I haven't added more to rely more heavily in one color -also feeling that red is the color that give me less powerful cards, burning wish could be used but I dislike it- and I also use Engineered Explosives. The decks I aim to beat are mostly light in non-basic hate, I can take the chances in running red in the mean-time.

Again, I even mentioned in my analysis that the whole point of the deck is to kill without creatures and to pick Lightning Rift as a compact win condition, you can look at the original rift decks and you'll notice they pack enormous amount of board control, different kills and still use LR. It simply adds depth to your game as long as you have it on board.

The whole point of the thread is that the deck is unfinished, I run incredibly powerful cards and I run Lightning Rift as a back up strategy for those cards. Probably the numbers of LR and Raven's Crime should be reduced, but I kept them up for testing proposes. Still, thanks for the comments I will consider to further implement them into the deck.

hi-val
03-23-2010, 10:14 AM
This is an interesting idea, for sure. It's got me thinking about Lightning Rift again and its potential as a board-sweeper. I don't know if I like hitching my spurs to it completely, since it's pretty slow, but it reminds me of Punishing Fires as a good way to clear off the board. I'm also thinking about how awesome Gifts for LFTL and three cycling lands would be with Lightning Rift around...

Arrowni
03-23-2010, 10:23 AM
A blue version of this deck could use gifts ungiven to boost cycling heavy hands. My issue is that if I run more cycling lands than I already do -or use them amongst many colors-, the mana base weakens considerably, you're probably forced to run some non-land cyclers -or rely entirely on Lftl- like Undead Gladiator or Eternal Dragon. I'll sure try to pitch it later on to see how it works.

rufus
03-23-2010, 11:00 AM
Looking at this deck, I find myself wondering about some of the new cyclers:

Street Wraith
Igneous Pouncer
Valley Rannet
Monstrous Carabid
Architects of Will

morgan_coke
03-23-2010, 01:55 PM
I'm sorry, I'm not trying to rain on your parade or anything, but in what way is this deck superior to r/w rifter?

RW Rifter - beats holy hell out of all aggro, splits with control, loses like crazy to combo. Main problem: slow win conditions.

BRG Rifter - beats holy hell out of some aggro, splits with control, loses like crazy to combo. Main problem: slow win conditions.

I'm sorry, I just don't see the advantage for you in making the switch.

If you wan't to build a competitive Rifter deck, start with one of the old R/W lists. Pull the Moats/Humilities etc. Add in 4x Jotun Grunt, 4x Tarmogoyf, and several Life from the Loams. Now you can beat combo with some sideboard help and are prepared to deal with all of the many creatures that Rift no longer kills because 'Goyf largely invalidated x/2 critters.

Again, I'm not trying to hate on you here, I'm just pointing out the situation re: the current meta and Rifter decks.

Arrowni
03-23-2010, 07:28 PM
Read my first post, I tested original recipe Rifter, its just worse. Why? Just look at my black cards and you'll realize they beat everything white ones can and more, my game against control is about twice as good as the original decks thanks to virtual card advantage discard. You say that X/2 creatures are gone, but there are merfolks, faeries and utility creatures such as Lavamancer and creatures with exalted, the deck is faring well against the current meta and I've beat people through barriers of counters and counterbalance lock thanks to Rift.

Here you have a deck that can beat consistently merfolk, tempo goyf and zoo, last time I heard those decks were good. With black you have hate enough to win the combo matchup if it ever comes to that, but I'm not going to pretend the deck owns the meta. Testing has proved again and again that the deck can compete with tier decks, that by itself deserves some consideration.

Kangaxx
03-24-2010, 10:43 AM
I'm sorry, I'm not trying to rain on your parade or anything, but in what way is this deck superior to r/w rifter?

RW Rifter - beats holy hell out of all aggro, splits with control, loses like crazy to combo. Main problem: slow win conditions.

BRG Rifter - beats holy hell out of some aggro, splits with control, loses like crazy to combo. Main problem: slow win conditions.

I'm sorry, I just don't see the advantage for you in making the switch.

If you wan't to build a competitive Rifter deck, start with one of the old R/W lists. Pull the Moats/Humilities etc. Add in 4x Jotun Grunt, 4x Tarmogoyf, and several Life from the Loams. Now you can beat combo with some sideboard help and are prepared to deal with all of the many creatures that Rift no longer kills because 'Goyf largely invalidated x/2 critters.

Again, I'm not trying to hate on you here, I'm just pointing out the situation re: the current meta and Rifter decks.

I think you're just being a hater honestly, since everyone knows you're The Rifter Guy. Obviously, he's going to have different matchup results versus various things becuase of the cards ran. My pet peeve is when people compare A deck to B, which is a scenario too ambiguous to judge at first glance. If you look at it deeper, there's about a million probability interactions that can be drawn from X card interacting with Y card and so forth, that claiming that a particular deck is better than another becomes too much of a general statement. The probability factor is the main reason that no deck is the same and most people don't even realize that. I have learned this through experience and much thought put into the matter. It pains me whenever this matter is brought up becuase I know that it falls under the catergory of flawed logic.

MakeMyDay
03-24-2010, 02:56 PM
Since I "still" play the rw rift I feel like I also need to reply to this Thread.

Like everybody said, rift decks tent to loose against combo. Maybe with the hand card removals the chances are a little better, but the deck is also a lot slower running black, which makes you loose against some other decks.

The creature hat from black is not a hunge advantage. There are as many nice white cards to do the same job like worth of good and Swords to Plowshares. but I don't play both of them.
Humility just kills creature based decks!

You play the deed agaist enchantments and artifact? Not a good choice if your rift is on the table.
Disenchant and Wipe Clean are faster and get for less mana right to the point. Whipe out also cycles for 3.

The very good addition you made is life from the loam to get three cycle lands back and rift them again and the undead gladiator.
To me he looks better then Eternal Dragon.

Combo is still a problem? Try Pithing Needle out of the sideboard. It's a solid first rund drop if you know what is commi ...
When playing against control and my Rift & Humility get's countered I used to play Defense Grid. But I know that is is not the best choice.

If you want me to post my RW Rift on here let me know.

MakeMyDay

Arrowni
03-24-2010, 08:00 PM
I'm still getting good results with my build, I would actually like to know how white/green/red decks would work with Lftl, you have at the very lest aggressive creatures like Knight of the Reliquary then. Deed is a house against both creatures and enchantments, as you said its slow but I have maelstrom pulse and access to green enchantment/artifact removal. What this deck really needs to make the jump is having a planeswalker close to Elspeth, hard to remove and recurring threat -Elspeth is probably the card that pushes Old Rifter harder into being competitive-. I would love to see a white version and get impression on the matches it has.