Stoneforge Mystic [mono W]

[klaus]

Let me cut right to the chase:

4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Kitchen Finks
3 Aven Mind Censor
2 Baneslayer Angel
2 Spectral Posession
1 Stonecloaker

3 Elspeth, Knight's Errant

2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow

4 Oblivion Ring
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
[-35-]

4 Chrome Mox
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
1 Kor Haven
14 Snow-Covered Plains
[-25-]
---
The current SB:
4 Faerie Macabre
4 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Ghostly Prison
3 Aura of Silence

(what else would be noteworthy?)
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yeah, I have actually done zero testing sofar - just thought I'd throw it out there before tackling any sessions.
I guess most of the choices are self-explanatory, and at least on paper I'm quite happy with the list.
Stuff that I'm not so sure about includes:
- number of Avengers
- number of Cities
- manlands, hot or not?
- number of O. Rings
- Karakas-Mangara tech: hot or not?
- number of Kor Havens
- possibly a 1/1 split with Maze of Ith?
- 1 random Stone Cloaker?

----

Let me know what you think!
---

EDIT:
In a combo-light meta I'd cut 3sphere and add 1 Stonecloaker, 1 Spectral Posession, 1 Cataclysm and go -2 Plains, +3 Flagstones of Trokair

[mugs]

"I think you might" want to review this:

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Other posts falling into this category:
Posting decklists without content. Those will be locked as soon as we see it. There's no hard and fast rule about how much content you need with a new deck, but it should be it should cover the basics (e.g. why the deck is worth playing, notable card choices, what relative advantages/disadvantages it has over decks with a similar strategy, etc.)
One-liners or even one-word posts. There's a fine line between wit and spam.
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In general, strive to add worthwhile information and perspective to the discussion at hand.

[klaus]

"I think you might" want to review this:

III. Lack of Content (No Spam)
Ever since Internet bulletin boards and Usenet newsgroups sprang up in the early 90s’, we’ve all had to deal with worthless posts and ideas - honestly, far too many of them. At MTS, posting without meaningful and relevant content is the easiest way to get a thread locked. Before you post, ask yourself if anyone cares what you have to say on the topic. If no one will, keep your thoughts to yourself.
Other posts falling into this category:
Posting decklists without content. Those will be locked as soon as we see it. There's no hard and fast rule about how much content you need with a new deck, but it should be it should cover the basics (e.g. why the deck is worth playing, notable card choices, what relative advantages/disadvantages it has over decks with a similar strategy, etc.)
One-liners or even one-word posts. There's a fine line between wit and spam.
Hijacking threads with off-topic posts. Stay on topic and make your posts in the appropriate thread to keep the discussion on-track and relevant.
In general, strive to add worthwhile information and perspective to the discussion at hand.

At this point I neither have the time on my hands to write up anything primerish, nor do I intend to convince the Source that this deck is superb to "xyz".dec
I'm simply seeking a little input during that early stage of deck development. Obviously I'm not addressing inexperienced players - as for my target group, I'm pretty certain they can actually just "read" synergies and problems the deck inherits without needing me point out that Chalice is cool in a deck with 2mana lands and no 1 drops, Kitchen Finks make up for Ancient Tombs' life loss, etc..
*Sigh*
Don't get me wrong, I'd be happy to discuss choices and strategies and I'll surely do so, should the need arise.

[Azdraël]

There is already a Stoneforge.deck thread, just go there, wether your list is similar or not.

[klaus]

There is already a Stoneforge.deck thread, just go there, wether your list is similar or not.

UGW Excalibur?
>>Maybe I should also check out that Chalice of the Void.dec that's somewhere here in the NaDD forum...<<
Guys please stop pseudo-mod'ing around -.-

[hjalte]

I've been fooling around with the idea of making a deck with Aven Mindcensor. I have no idea whether that would work or not, but it sounds fun, especially in a deck like this, where you can accelerate it out turn 1. Wasteland would probably need to be added though.

[(nameless one)]

At the end of all this, I have a feeling that this is going to turn out to be like Death and Taxes without the Mangara trick.

[mchainmail]

Chalice for 1 is the most broken turn 1 play in the game, I like the idea. I don't know if the deck is good enough, but it's at least testable.

[Tao]

It seems like you had the same thought process like me. Toying around with Excalibur and noticing "Holy crap Stoneforge Mystic is freaking nuts". I've been trying it in the GW Survival and also tinkering a bit with a BW/Confidant/Vial/Mystic list but I also like this idea.

For a few of your questions:

Number of Kor Haven: 0
Maze Haven split: 0/0
Manlands: Mishra's Factory has good chances to be the Equipment bearer after an attrition war, which seems like it would matter often to me. On the other hand the base is already stretched with Finks and Elspeth vs. Tomb/City so this has to be tested.
Number O Rings: 4 I would assume
Karakas Mangara: Not in a deck with Ancient Tomb and without Vial, doesn't work at all.
1 Random Stonecloaker: No.

[Mystical_Jackass]

Not bad. I like the equip fetching idea. Maybe, cut a prison & oblivion ring for crucibles/factories? 1-2 Baneslayers? Seems sorta angel stompy in a way, might as well

Cataclysm could be an idea. Say you have one creature, one artifact, land, etc. With crucible you can ride ftw. Other than that... the deck seems descent, just no broken plays that jump out ya know, it's a solid mid-deck though

[jrsthethird]

This deck plays differently than Excalibur (Bant Mystic aggro-control deck), as does the BW variant that Tao and I are independently working on, and the UW tempo variant posted in that thread.

Saying every deck that runs Mystic + Jitte/Swords is the same as saying that every deck that runs FoW + Daze is the same.

[Valdez]

I would try it more Angel-Stompish:

Critters: 20- 25
3-4 Stoneforge Mystic
2-3 Jotun Grunt
4 Kitchen Finks
3 Elspeth, Knight's Errant
3-4 Baneslayer Angel
2-3 Aven Mind Censor
3-4 Ethersworn Canonist

Equipment: 4
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow

Removal: 4
4 Oblivion Ring

Permission: 4-8
4 Chalice of the Void
0-4 Trinisphere (?)

Mana: 24
4 Chrome Mox
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
13 Snow-Covered Plains

I would say, that 3 Mystics are enough, Baneslayers are the shit with CotV1 or SoLaS, Grunt stops Goyfs + KotR.
I'am am not sure, if 3sphere is needed in this deck, canonist would do quite the same.

[gustha]

3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Aven Mind Censor
4 Kitchen Finks
3 Elspeth, Knight's Errant
2 Baneslayer Angel

2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Sword of Fire and Ice

4 Oblivion Ring
4 Ghostly Prison

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
[-35-]

4 Chrome Mox
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
13 Snow-Covered Plains
[-25-]

I'd problably go like that. You really don't need SOLAS, life gain + creature recursion is irrelevant with 4 finks and maybe baneslayer angel. You desperately need to draw, and SOFi is far better. Plus you have evasive guys: i think that there's no reason to run a WW flier which is dead before your 4th turn, mindcensor is just that good, requires less color investment, has the surprise factor, and it's a primary combo hoser (goodbye ant and reanimator, you fetch in resp mincdensor, etc.). 3 SFM for 4 equipments i think is more than enough, you shouldn' suffer daze :) and you have plenty of other things to do while you set up for SFM: casting chalices, locking with 3sphere, keeping the board with elspeth and so on... The list now look on paper almost perfect: combo hoser, aggro thrasher...drawing is the everpresent problem.

[klaus]

Thanks for the input. Im not sure whether upping the city count beyond two is a feasible idea without crucible. Im aware of the importance of turn 1 bombs but the deck actually wants at least 5 mana by turn four and around 7 mana by turn five - while four definitely increase the odds for having 3 mana on turn 1 they certainly lower the odds for a steady mana development............... I do like mindcensor a lot - yet dropping avenger completely would weaken the aggro mu considerably. I guess its a meta-dependant issue................ Ill keep SoLaS in the MD for sure, not for life gain or recursion, though those are some cute plusses, but for additional stp protection. Baneslayer is a house indeed. Ill test her as a two-of for sure and let you know how it went. .......................... Edit: I thought about Stonecloaker some more and i actually think hes pretty awesome. He not only protects his friends, countering spot removal, but is instant gy hate - even reusable if nessecary and, what is more, he bounces finks for additional life gain and mystic for additional equipment, and all of the at that covenient casting cost 2W ................... @ Ghusta: I dont think that deck lacks card advantage, at all. All of the following spells mark (potential) C/A if you think about it: mystic, elspeth, mindcensor, finks, jitte, sofi, solas, chalice.

[gustha]

I know the deck needs stable mana, but it also need to drop chalice@1 and/or trinisphere by turn1-2.
City obviously has its downsides, but you NEED to drop your lock pieces as fast as you can. I won't go below 3 in any case, 4 is debatable, but 2 is anyway too low. You want a 2 mana land or a chrome mox in your opening hand.
People much better at math than me calculated that the odds of having a single card of a desidered type in your opening hand are very high when the minimum number of that cards is 11. So 4+4+3 is the minimum number for being almost sure that in your opening hand there's at least one among city, tomb, mox.

As for what concerns Serra Avenger, I fail to see how a creature you can't cast before t4 makes your aggro Mu more consistent. She also dies to whatever spell the opponent plays, and has no "intelligent" purpose besides vigilance, which isn't that great in this asset of the deck.
Truth be told, I really fail to see how your aggro MU can be bad at all... Sure, you're not white stax, but you hav:
4 KF
3 Elspeth
2 baneslayer
4 prison
Plus equipments. i think there's enough to keep aggro quiet and develop you game plan undisturbed, with chalices/spheres eventually locking your opponent's burn spell untile banslayer or KF or jitte hit he board. I think you really don't need anything more vs aggro, while aven mindcensor is an absolute bomb against every deck packing at leas fetches.

Stonecloacker: good card, but as a 1-of, I think he doesn't make the cut. You manage GY.based decks as combo decks, and so:
prison (ichorid)
chalice (ichorid, ant, reanimator, enchantress, belcher)
trini (ichorid, ant, reanimator, belcher)
mindcensor (ant, reanimator, belcher)

As for SOLAS, again I don't think you need extra stp protection. You already have chalice and trinispheres, and you have plenty of bombs to drop, you really don't care of a mere 4 stp in your opponent's deck. Let it blow your baneslayers, you just drop KF and elspeth, SFM and win. You simply outnumber your opponents removal by default.
On the contrary, you need to draw. Sure, the deck has lots of cards which make virtual or ral card advantage. But all in all, equipping a SOFI makes your clock faster, and with elspeth you're almost sure to draw. SOLAS doesn't really make any significant improvement to your gameplan, while SOFI is a powerhouse with elspeth and her give flying ability, making sure you have the total control of the board and generate real CA too.

[Maveric78f]

White lacks good creatures for 2W. This is a big problem in my opinion. I would play Spectral Procession or Raise the Alarm in this deck. They at least look better than Ghostly Prison or Ethersworn Canonist.

Mistmeadow Skulk might be interesting with swords.

And Mosquito Guard, Nightguard Patrol, Courier Hawk, Leonin Den-Guard,

[gustha]

Aven Mindcensor is a good card for 2W. That's why I'm advocating it as a 3-of. I really don't understand why you should need any of the cards you suggested (and as for creatures, you don't want creatures which fall under chalice@1 or 2, and trinisphere). You tipically want to spend your first turns dropping lock elements such as chalice, trinisphere and gosthly prison to lock the opponent (if it's combo/control) or slow him down (through mana investments and/or tempo gaining: aggro and aggrocontrol). Then you set up for the counter-attack, but at this point you should have at least 5 mana to spend, and then you can cast all the bombs you wish, protected by countermagic (trinisphere) and removals (chalice). This isn't the best game scenario, just how the deck is supposed to work, at least that's how a stompy-sh deck is supposed to do in my mind, and more specifically a monoW stompy-sh deck, which can be either related with an aggressive variant as Angel Stompy or a more controllish one like Wstax. Life loss is circumscribed thanks to finks and angel, not to mention jitte.

[klaus]

I've thought about Ghostly Prison some more and came to the conclusion that it's not MDworthy.
It got added without much thought, basically because it's got a convenient casting cost and worked nicely in my GeddonStax builds - StoneforgeStompy does not attack your opponents' mana supply (beyond 3sphere) in anyway, though: it doesn't run Geddons, no Wastelands and no Tabernacle effects, which is why Prison is really only good against Tribal.dec and that alone does not warrant its MD inclusion.
That being said, I'm still undecided whether it should be replaced by something that improves the defense or the offense.
Spectral Posession works pretty well as a compromise between the 2 strategies. I'll test it for sure.

[list updated]

[gustha]

Got it. I still don't like SOLAS :)
As for what concerns Prison, if you don't like it MD why should you like it sb? Wrath of god is much better sb card for just 1 more mana, I think...

[Maveric78f]

Got it. I still don't like SOLAS :)
As for what concerns Prison, if you don't like it MD why should you like it sb? Wrath of god is much better sb card for just 1 more mana, I think...

Did you notice that the deck plays 20 creatures? You surely don't want to wrath yourself.

[gustha]

Did you notice that the deck plays elspeth which is advantage after wrath? did you notice that the deck runs SOLAS [@klaus: promoted! a couple of testings showed you were right] which means that wrath goes at your benefit? Did you notice that the deck runs 4 creatures (1/5 of the total) that survives wrath (namely, KF)? Did you notice that the deck has no outs to progenitus*, being NOprog one of the top tiers of the format right now?

Please...

Also, Prison isn't enough without tabernacle effects or mana denial plans, the same is true for its inclusion MD, and so it should be true as well for SB. Sb cards should be better than MD cards in the MU's in which you side them in. If Prison is not good enough to maindeck for specific reasons, assuming that post-sb those condition which make prison a bad card forthe deck should remain unchanged, and thus prison should be a bad card sb as well.
Also, you aren't forced to wrath yourself... If you are in advantage don't wrath, if your opponent is ahead, wrath yourself or you lose, don't matter what. If you don't know how and when to play wrath, it's not a problem of how many creatures you play, but a lack of strategic planning...

If I have to choose between prison, wrath and wing shards, I'll choose wrath without hesitation!

---
*Elspeth + finks equipped with SOLAS = I race progenitus!

[Maveric78f]

Progenitus is not that much a problem because you can race, and because you play Aven Mindcensor. And Wrath is certainly not the best way to deal with Progenitus.

[klaus]

Sorry Gustha. Wrath is not a viable option :-(
And Ghostly Prison is still SB worthy since it really shines against Tribal and Zoo.

I've thought about Trinisphere some more :-)

Now that Prison got cut, it's become a little worse. It is much better in GeddonStax than it is here, since Stax runs way less bombs (Geddon and Smokestack being its only true wincons against control) that need counter protection. StoneforgeStompy on the other hand runs enough wincons so that getting some countered eventually is not a big deal. Also, after turn 3/4 it's a "meh card" imo, degrading it to maindecked combo hate aka. a meta choice.
Without 3sphere, Wingshards becomes a little more feasible as a SB choice - hmm still undecided.

Since my meta is not really combo-infested I'll try a Trini-less version for the time being.
What do you guys think about Emeria Angel, possibly alongside a 4 Flagstones mini combo ;) ?

[gustha]

Ofc progenitus is a relative problem, and in fact I put it as the last objection. Prison simply delays the problem, wrath resolves it for a mana more. Zoo and merfolk and goblin all get raped by this card, while they can more or less easily play around a prison without armageddon-spells.
Again, if you aren't able to distinguish the proper time to cast wrath, it's not that wrath sucks...She's actually the best anti-creature card for a w stompy asset, that can reach 5 mana consistently enough to stay out of daze reach, and 4 mana even more easier, to wipe the board vs every aggro/aggrocontrol deck, after having forced the opponent to overextend with a couple of your creatures. Just play the control deck and use your creatures as removals, creating stalls and forcing the opponent to break the stalls, untile he gets punished by wrath. C'mon, I remember you were a landstill player, this should sound familiar to you, and that's not a matter of not playing creatures in landstill (which some players did, like klaus and me, eg). On what grounds you can say prison is a better sb card that wrath? I really don't get it... :)

@klaus: d'oh! tu quoque! C'mon, wrath is far better than prison!
Wrath is still better than emeria angel :P
play decree of justice!

[klaus]

Ofc progenitus is a relative problem, and in fact I put it as the last objection. Prison simply delays the problem, wrath resolves it for a mana more. Zoo and merfolk and goblin all get raped by this card, while they can more or less easily play around a prison without armageddon-spells.
Again, if you aren't able to distinguish the proper time to cast wrath, it's not that wrath sucks...She's actually the best anti-creature card for a w stompy asset, that can reach 5 mana consistently enough to stay out of daze reach, and 4 mana even more easier, to wipe the board vs every aggro/aggrocontrol deck, after having forced the opponent to overextend with a couple of your creatures. Just play the control deck and use your creatures as removals, creating stalls and forcing the opponent to break the stalls, untile he gets punished by wrath. C'mon, I remember you were a landstill player, this should sound familiar to you, and that's not a matter of not playing creatures in landstill (which some players did, like klaus and me, eg). On what grounds you can say prison is a better sb card that wrath? I really don't get it... :)

@klaus: d'oh! tu quoque! C'mon, wrath is far better than prison!
Wrath is still better than emeria angel :P
play decree of justice!

Gustha, my dear friend :) as you should actually know - I cut Wrath EVEN from Landstill :tongue: ...
I'd much rather play Cataclysm for sure.
Ah! ... so many options!

[Mystical_Jackass]

Using SoLS vs SoFI.

I just think SoFI is superior imo. Just because, you claim you need to protect from spells like PtE, StP, but is that not what Chalice 1 is for? The thing that sets it apart to me, is the card draw that will always take effect vs recursion, and more importantly the removal is good good! It's why lil' nubs like Lavamancer are so good, to be able to ping of creatures or opponent for extra damage is pretty big.

[klaus]

Using SoLS vs SoFI.

I just think SoFI is superior imo. Just because, you claim you need to protect from spells like PtE, StP, but is that not what Chalice 1 is for? The thing that sets it apart to me, is the card draw that will always take effect vs recursion, and more importantly the removal is good good! It's why lil' nubs like Lavamancer are so good, to be able to ping of creatures or opponent for extra damage is pretty big.

In a build, boasting 7 Chalices and no SF.Mystic I could see myself cutting SoLaS - but: since drawing AND resolving Chalice on turn 1/2 is not a given, plus SF.Mystic's tutor function multiplies SoFI (as well as SoLaS), I opt for the split.
You will, at any larger tourney run into enough decks featuring black and/or white, so that the inclusion of this single tutorable spell should be more than justified.
I don't doubt the fact that SoFI will win more games, but whenever I feel that it's the superior equipment in a game, I'll simply go SFM->SoFI... that easy :cool:
Bottom line being I prefer versatility over pure power.

[gustha]

In a build, boasting 7 Chalices and no SF.Mystic I could see myself cutting SoLaS - but: since drawing AND resolving Chalice on turn 1/2 is not a given, plus SF.Mystic's tutor function multiplies SoFI (as well as SoLaS), I opt for the split.
You will, at any larger tourney run into enough decks featuring black and/or white, so that the inclusion of this single tutorable spell should be more than justified.
I don't doubt the fact that SoFI will win more games, but whenever I feel that it's the superior equipment in a game, I'll simply go SFM->SoFI... that easy :cool:
Bottom line being I prefer versatility over pure power.

Agreed after testing. The split is simply amazing.


Gustha, my dear friend :) as you should actually know - I cut Wrath EVEN from Landstill ...
I'd much rather play Cataclysm for sure.
I know, I know...me too, and for the same reasons I think... But this is not landstill, and making mana is much more easier. In games vs fast aggro decks you can just turn to control mode and play like w stax. As you said, prison just buy little time. Wrath just seals the deal. Cataclysm too is an option I considered, but the only way i can see it being good is when i have on the field a creature with an equipment, possibly on it, and that creature is possibly evasive, or elspeth in on the board. In the second case, wrath does more or less the same, if not better. In the first case yes, cataclysm is actually better (especially if you have SOLAS which means no stp's with that single mana an possibly lifegain).
In fact i got down to a choice between wrath and cataclysm but... aren't there too many "if"'s? Plus cataclysm is bad if you are facing a vial.based deck... :(

[klaus]

Alright screw this.
I'm really not happy with this deck >.<

On the one hand it reliably beats mid-range aggro and combo (G2/3) even the sans-3sphere list, on the other hand I lost to MUC and some mono B lists and some other random decks pretty badly. I know, I know, can't have it all, but still...

More often than not I got flooded, but I got screwed too. I really hate that - the deck reminded me why I quit playing Ancient Tomb decks :-P
I really don't see a reason why this list or a meta'd version should be picked over any tier 1 deck, so I guess this is it - it was good as long as it lasted.
I'm outta here, weeping my eyes out, haha!