Largest non-infinite number in Magic.

[C.P.]

A friend of mine has weird goal of discovering the way of generating largest, non-infinite(as in not involving infinite loop) number in magic. Recently he discovered the combination of following cards:

Minion Reflector.
Opalescence.
Dual Nature.
Doubling Season.
Saproling Burst.

and 31 Mana in the pool.

The play goes something like this:

1. Play Minion Reflector and Opalescence.

2. Play Dual Nature, Which will put a token copy of itself into play, and will trigger the Reflector. You now have 3 Dual natures.

3. Play Doubling Season. After taking of all the triggers, you get about 66185228434044942951864067458396061614989522267577311297802947435570493724401440549267868490798926773634494383968047143923956857140205406402740536087446083831052036848232439995904404992798007514718326043410570379830870463780085260619444417205199197123751210704970352727833755425876102776028267313405809429548880554782040765277562828362884238325465448520348307574943345990309941642666926723379729598185834735054732500415409883868361423159913770812218772711901772249553153402287759789517121744336755350465901655205184917370974202405586941211065395540765567663193297173367254230313612244182941999500402388195450053080385544 Doubling Season tokens.

4. The original idea from my friend was casting a Turntimber Ranger, but turns out Sproling burst makes more tokens. After all the math, it is about

6 + N + (10 + 4*(2^N)*(7*(2^N)-1))*(2^N)

Tokens, where N is the number of Doubling Seasons.
This is roughly on the order of magnitude of ~10^(10^(686)).

One of my other friends made a doucument (http://pastebin.com/Anbpz69v) describing the combo. However, he does not play magic, so there could be some errors in the document.

So here is challenge (for those who are interested in more defined challenge, read the document):

With 100 mana and 5 Cards, can you beat this number without making infinite loops?


EDIT: Try it with 5 different cards. Think EDH.

[Koby]

This combo doesn't work due to Dual Nature's errata:

"Whenever a nontoken creature enters the battlefield, its controller puts a token that's a copy of that creature onto the battlefield."

Since tokens are being produced by Minion Reflector, Dual Nature, as well as Doubling Season, it would only make a grand totaly of 3 Dual Natures, and 5 Doubling Seasons (2 from Dual Nature trigger, and 2 from Minion Reflector).

[Jason]

How about I just kill you with Starlit Sanctum, Transmutation, Daru Spiritualist, and Nomads en-Kor? It takes less cards and less mana

[MattH]

3 Doubling Season
Rite of Replication, kicked
Opalescence

I don't know how big that is.

[C.P.]

How about I just kill you with Starlit Sanctum, Transmutation, Daru Spiritualist, and Nomads en-Kor? It takes less cards and less mana

What part of non-infinite did you miss?

[Sanguine Voyeur]

3 Doubling Season
Rite of Replication, kicked
Opalescence

I don't know how big that is.3*5 is 15.

[Malchar]

Each doubling season will double the amount once, so it would be 5 * 2^3 = 5 * 8 = 40. I assume that you want to cast rite of replication on doubling season, but the incoming copies won't multiply themselves. After you cast the rite, you'll have the 3 original doubling seasons + 40 new doubling seasons. If you cast another rite of replication, you would have 5 * 2^43 = 5 * 8,796,093,022,208 = 43,980,465,111,040 copies, + the 43 you started with = 43,980,465,111,083. The next iteration would be 43980465111083 + 5 * 2^43980465111083, which is too large to express in meaningful way.

There is another combo that I remember from a while ago that involved followed footsteps enchanting doubling season with the obligatory opalescence in play. It takes a few turns, but then it starts to grow extremely large as well. I suppose you could combo this with a few time walks and time warps to do it all in the "same" turn.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Right. It would be 40, but given the circumstances, you couldn't cast Rite again. A better solution could be that with -1 Doubling Season and +1 Mirari.

[Volt]

You know, there's a more concise way to say "non-infinite." Just thought I'd point that out.

/troll

[Malchar]

I forgot about the 5 card restriction, but, technically, I'm not submitting an answer. Rather, I'm just nitpicking. Also, you can never have infinite combos in Magic, let alone in the real world.

[MattH]

I forgot about the 5 card restriction, but, technically, I'm not submitting an answer. Rather, I'm just nitpicking. Also, you can never have infinite combos in Magic, let alone in the real world.
Pretty sure by non-infinite he means bounded (i.e. not arbitrarily large).

Also, the Life combo is arbitrarily large but finite. I think in Magic terms we can define an infinite combo as generating an arbitrarily large number of arbitrarily large numbers. There are fewer of these; Aluren comes to mind. Salvagers/LED/Pyrite Spellbomb also.

[jrsthethird]

Infinite combo is Animate Dead + Worldgorger Dragon. It has no end; it locks the game in a draw unless someone can win at instant speed while the cycle is going off. Everything else mentioned hinges on choices, which creates the need to state an arbitrarily large number for the game to continue.

The purpose of this topic is a case where there is a limiting factor imposed on the combo by the actual cards/rules of the game. There is no rule saying that you can't gain infinite life with Spiritualist et. al., but there is a rule saying you must pick a number so the game can continue, and being able to pick a number means that someone else can just go "Hey, my combo can do one more than yours!" and then you can go "Well, if I target him 2 more times that beats you!" ad infinitum.

So there are 3 classes of "big" combos:
Infinite (Gorger+Dead)
Arbitrarily large (Spiritualist)
Bounded cases (OP, even though it doesn't work)

So only the 3rd one applies.

[Malchar]

There is another combo that I remember from a while ago that involved followed footsteps enchanting doubling season with the obligatory opalescence in play. It takes a few turns, but then it starts to grow extremely large as well. I suppose you could combo this with a few time walks and time warps to do it all in the "same" turn.

Doubling Season
Opalescence
Followed Footsteps (enchanting doubling season)
Paradox Haze (enchanting you)
Time Stretch
27 mana total

Turn 1: Play everything. You have one doubling season in play, which is a 5/5 creature.
Turn 2 first upkeep: You get another doubling season from followed footsteps, but you actually get two because of doubling season. You now have 3 in play.
Turn 2 second upkeep: You get 2^3 = 8 doubling seasons. Plus the 3 you had, you have 11 total.
Turn 3 first upkeep: You get 2^11 = 2048. 2048 + 11 = 2059.
Turn 3 second upkeep: You get 2^2059 = 6.61852... x 10^619 doubling seasons, which are all 5/5 creatures.

Edit: Also, the original poster's combo doesn't work not because of an errata. In fact, it never worked. Dual Nature never duplicated tokens. The original wording referred to cards, which excludes tokens. The new wording is just a template update. If it did copy tokens, then when one creature enters, it will make a token, and the token will make another token, etc. It would be an infinite combo on its own.

[JosephBono]

The OP's combo works - he's never duplicating tokens with Dual Nature, just duplicating the cards that he plays.

Minion Reflector + Opalesence + Dual Nature + Clone + Doubling Season should be larger that the OP.

1. Play Minion Reflector, Opalesence, Dual Nature, end up with 2 additional Dual Nature tokens (one from Dual Nature copying itself, one from Minion Reflector copying Dual Nature)
2. Play clone, copying Dual Nature. All 4 Dual Natures (original, clone, 2 tokens) trigger, as does Minion Reflector, giving us a final board of Minion Reflector, Opalesence, 9x Dual Nature.
3. Play Doubling Season. 9x Dual Nature Triggers go on the stack, plus 1 Minion Reflector trigger.

The first trigger gives you 2^1 Doubling Seasons, second gives you 2^3, thrid trigger gives you 2^11 DS, fourth gives you 2^2059, fifth gives you 2^(2^2059 + 2059), sixth gives you 2^(2^(2^2059 + 2059) + 2^2059 +2059), seventh gives you 2^(2^(2^(2^2059 + 2059) + 2^2059 +2059) + 2^(2^2059 + 2059) + 2^2059 +2059), eighth gives you gives you 2^(2^(2^(2^(2^2059 + 2059) + 2^2059 +2059) + 2^(2^2059 + 2059) + 2^2059 +2059) + 2^(2^(2^2059 + 2059) + 2^2059 +2059) + 2^(2^2059 + 2059) + 2^2059 +2059)), ninth gives you 2^(2^(2^(2^(2^(2^2059 + 2059) + 2^2059 +2059) + 2^(2^2059 + 2059) + 2^2059 +2059) + 2^(2^(2^2059 + 2059) + 2^2059 +2059) + 2^(2^2059 + 2059) + 2^2059 +2059)) + (2^(2^(2^(2^2059 + 2059) + 2^2059 +2059) + 2^(2^2059 + 2059) + 2^2059 +2059) + 2^(2^(2^2059 + 2059) + 2^2059 +2059) + 2^(2^2059 + 2059) + 2^2059 +2059))

Which is multiple orders of magnitude larger.

Essentially using Saproling Burst gives you approximately 2^(3N) creatures where N is the number of Doubling Seasons in play. An additional Doubling Season "copy" trigger will give you 2^N creatures, where N is the number of Doubling Seasons in play. Thus two additional Doubling Season "copy" triggers will outpace a Saproling Burst, giving you 2^(2^N + N) additional creatures as opposed to 2^(3N).

I think the key to maximizing the number is to maximize the number of "copy" triggers that copy the Doubling Season, since each additional Doubling Season trigger creates an exponential increase in the number of doubling seasongs.

We can get more copy triggers on the stack by dropping Minion Reflector from the equation and just using more clone effects. For example:

Opalesence + Dual Nature + Rite of Replication + Clone + Doubling Season:

1. Play Opalesence and Dual Nature, get a copy Dual Nature, end with Opalesence + 2 Dual Nature
2. Play a kicked Rite of Replication on Dual Nature, get five new Dual Natures, end with Opalesence + 7 Dual Nature
3. Play Clone on Dual Nature, get nine new Dual Natures, end with Opalesence + 16 Dual Natures
4. Play Doubling Season, get 16 copy triggers.

You might be able to get even bigger numbers by moving the clone to be after the Doubling Season or by using Dance of Many instead of Clone.

[jrsthethird]

Why not kick 2 Rites instead of Rite + Clone?

[JosephBono]

Kicking two Rites actually gives you fewer copies of Dual Nature, since the Dual Natures that are already in play won't trigger off of the Rite tokens (since they are tokens).

Also, the challenge from the OP was to use 5 different cards.

[jrsthethird]

Opalescence - 1 dude
Dual Nature - 3 dudes
Doubling Season - 3 + 1 (DS card) + 2 (first DN trigger, creates 1 token, which is doubled) + 8 (2nd DN trigger, times 2^3) = 14 dudes (2 DN, 11 DS)
Dance of Many, choosing original Doubling Season card - 14 + 1 (Dance card) + 2 DN triggers (creating Dance tokens, which create DS tokens)

Then each Dance token gets Doubled so many times, each one creating a token for Doubling Season, which are all doubled.

Then your last card is kicked Rite on Dance of Many, which makes 5x2^(huge number) Dances, which goes apeshit.

[caiomarcos]

Can any one built this and play it on Magic Online? I wanna see it crash then blame Wizards for a shitty software! :D

Anyway, very interesting topic, refreshing from all the Restricted List rage. Keep going!

MATLAB was kind enough to calculate it:


>> (2^(2^(2^(2^(2^(2^2059 + 2059) + 2^2059 +2059) + 2^(2^2059 + 2059) + 2^2059 +2059) + 2^(2^(2^2059 + 2059) + 2^2059 +2059) + 2^(2^2059 + 2059) + 2^2059 +2059)) + (2^(2^(2^(2^2059 + 2059) + 2^2059 +2059) + 2^(2^2059 + 2059) + 2^2059 +2059) + 2^(2^(2^2059 + 2059) + 2^2059 +2059) + 2^(2^2059 + 2059) + 2^2059 +2059))

ans =

Inf

:)

[Sanguine Voyeur]

If I'm reading this correctly, you're saying that a computer has defined infinity as a specific integer.

I'm sorry, Dave. I'm afraid I can't do that.

[jrsthethird]

A computer can only store so much information in a given type of variable. I'm not surprised this overloaded that. We need one of those supercomputers that searches for prime numbers.

Get Dick Garfield on this, have him put his math Ph.D. to use. He should know some nerds.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I'm far too lazy to do the math on this myself, but I believe all of your wussy combos are trumped by the following:

1) Play Opalescence, Doubling Season, Mirari
2) Play Rite of Replication with kicker, targeting Doubling Season
3) Copy Rite with Mirari. Allow to resolve.
4) With 11 Doubling Seasons in play, play Radiate targeting Rite. Copy with Mirari. Start resolving.


Five cards, 34 mana.

[C.P.]

I'm far too lazy to do the math on this myself, but I believe all of your wussy combos are trumped by the following:

1) Play Opalescence, Doubling Season, Mirari
2) Play Rite of Replication with kicker, targeting Doubling Season
3) Copy Rite with Mirari. Allow to resolve.
4) With 11 Doubling Seasons in play, play Radiate targeting Rite. Copy with Mirari. Start resolving.


Five cards, 34 mana.

Props to the awesome combo. I'll get to calculate how many DSs that actually is.

[Phoenix Ignition]

I don't think this is the largest number, but it's fun. It could mill more cards than even wizards owns.


1) Play Halimar Excavator, Doubling Season, Mirari
2) Play Rite of Replication with kicker, targeting excavator, copy with Mirari
3) Play Radiate, copy with Mirari

That should give you 1 Ally, Rite of Replication x1 will put in 10 more copies, each ally triggering 10 times for 11 cards (110 cards per ally, so 1211 total so far), then the radiate will resolve, making 10 allies for each ally you already have (121 Allies, all triggering 110 times for 121 cards each time, so 1611741 total cards), the second Radiate copy then makes 10 more allies per ally you have (1331 allies for 2145200531 cards), then the last Rite hits for 10 more allies, triggering each ally 10 times for 1341 cards a piece, (2,163,183,341 cards, roughly 433 tons of magic cards, or 392,000 kg for you weirdos who use units that make sense).

The ultimate mill in green blue red.

[Zinch]

I don't think this is the largest number, but it's fun. It could mill more cards than even wizards owns.



Lol!
You made my day

[Julian23]

roughly 433 tons of magic cards, or 392,000 kg.

:eek:

[Maveric78f]

You've been ninjaed: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?15367-Infinite-life

http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb49/ImaraC/ninjaed.gif

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Props to the awesome combo. I'll get to calculate how many DSs that actually is.

*tenterhooks*

[pi4meterftw]

You've been ninjaed: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?15367-Infinite-life

http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb49/ImaraC/ninjaed.gif

The aspect of so-called "infinite" combos that is different than here is that the last combo-out wins, because of the way the natural number system works. Particularly, you give me a number, and I can always find a bigger one. Namely, your number plus one. (or whatever it takes to not lose/win the game of magic in question)

The definition of a "finite" combo is the negation of an infinite number. A combo such that there exists a natural number such that no iteration of the combo gives (whatever you're looking at: life, etc.) anything greater than or equal to. An upper bound.

What I'm basically saying is: how is this a ninja?

[jrsthethird]

The aspect of so-called "infinite" combos that is different than here is that the last combo-out wins, because of the way the natural number system works. Particularly, you give me a number, and I can always find a bigger one. Namely, your number plus one. (or whatever it takes to not lose/win the game of magic in question)

The definition of a "finite" combo is the negation of an infinite number. A combo such that there exists a natural number such that no iteration of the combo gives (whatever you're looking at: life, etc.) anything greater than or equal to. An upper bound.

I said that on the first page...

[Maveric78f]

I meant that the topic has already been treated in my post. So somehow, the thread I created ninjaed the OP.

[T is for TOOL]

I remember a similar thread to this one created several years ago. You all should replace Mirari with Djinn Illuminati.

[Forbiddian]

I like how the sound of "non-infinite" makes Jeff feel.

It's like saying, "not non-inflammable" just for the lulz.

[Phoenix Ignition]

I remember a similar thread to this one created several years ago. You all should replace Mirari with Djinn Illuminati.

Oh shit, we have 100 mana too. That definitely complicates calculations. Good find, but you may have ruined all productivity I will have for the next few hours, because the question arises if it is now better to have doubling season or replicate Radiate another time. I'm thinking the replicate would be far better.

Also, that frees up another slot (or even color, straight up blue/red works for this now, if you really wanted to make it in edh), so the question of there being a better card arises as well.

[MEATROCKET]

I meant that the topic has already been treated in my post. So somehow, the thread I created ninjaed the OP.

But the two threads do not treat the same subject. Actually, they are very different.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I like how the sound of "non-infinite" makes Jeff feel.

It's like saying, "not non-inflammable" just for the lulz.

So infinite has the same connotation as not inflammable?

Gotta love the English language.

Also: my head hurts thinking about it, but I'm pretty sure Djinn makes Radiate infinite. Create two copies, have the second copy target the first, loop the first targeting the original Radiate and Rite each time.

[frolll]

Anyway the solution ought to be the dreadful Graham number (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graham%27s_number), which is the largest finite number I can think of you should be able to explain to kinda everyone. So you launch a upper-bounded combo and choose to gain X life, where X=Graham's number, and you watch everyone in the room hating you for the rest of the tournament for you just halted judge's work by having 'em beating their heads against all sorts of solid surfaces.

But I think, for a finite number, it still requires a set-up like Salvagers combo - the bound is there beacause WotC asks folks to give a number when they are going infinite : ie there's no such thing as an infinite number in Magic (other than wanting to draw the game it is, you sure can do this in Dragon but then you're a dick :p).

I'm far too lazy to attempt to calculate the Djinn combo, though. It should be quite large. :o

[C.P.]

I was busy with school for a while, so I did not get to the numbers part yet. But yeah, Buyback effects are stupid. I think we should just ban it.

Also, what is the largest number if you were to ban Doubling season?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Anyway the solution ought to be the dreadful Graham number (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graham%27s_number), which is the largest finite number I can think of you should be able to explain to kinda everyone. So you launch a upper-bounded combo and choose to gain X life, where X=Graham's number, and you watch everyone in the room hating you for the rest of the tournament for you just halted judge's work by having 'em beating their heads against all sorts of solid surfaces.

But I think, for a finite number, it still requires a set-up like Salvagers combo - the bound is there beacause WotC asks folks to give a number when they are going infinite : ie there's no such thing as an infinite number in Magic (other than wanting to draw the game it is, you sure can do this in Dragon but then you're a dick :p).

I'm far too lazy to attempt to calculate the Djinn combo, though. It should be quite large. :o

Graham's Number + 1

[rufus]

Opalescence
Doubling Season
Djinn Illuminatus
Rite of Replication
Radiate

Cast Opalescence for 4 - 96 left
Doubling Season for 5 - 91 left
Djinn Illuminatus for 7 - 84 left
Play Rite of Replication, Kick it for 9, and then replicate it 14 times.
let 13 copies resolve
Play Radiate.

Copy 1 (doubled once):
+10 doubling seaons, total 11
Step 2: (doubled 11 times)
+2048 doubling seasons, total 2059
Step 3: (doubled 2059 times)
+66185228434044942951864067458396061614989522267577311297802947435570\
49372440144054926786849079892677363449438396804714392395685714020540\
64027405360874460838310520368482324399959044049927980075147183260434\
10570379830870463780085260619444417205199197123751210704970352727833\
75542587610277602826731340580942954888055478204076527756282836288423\
83254654485203483075749433459903099416426669267233797295981858347350\
54732500415409883868361423159913770812218772711901772249553153402287\
75978951712174433675535046590165520518491737097420240558694121106539\
55407655676631932971733672542303136122441829419995004023881954500530\
80383488 copies of doubling season. (that + 2059 total...)
Step 4 ...
The number has roughly
22061742811348314317288022486132020538329840755859103765934315811856\
83124146714684975595616359964225787816479465601571464131895238006846\
88009135120291486946103506789494108133319681349975993358382394420144\
70190126610290154593361753539814805735066399041250403568323450909277\
91847529203425867608910446860314318296018492734692175918760945429474\
61084884828401161025249811153301033138808889755744599098660619449116\
84910833471803294622787141053304590270739590903967257416517717800762\
58659650570724811225178348863388506839497245699140080186231373702179\
85135885225543977657244557514101045374147276473331668007960651500176\
93461162
Digits my computer runs out of memory. Only 8 steps to go before Radiating and adding one step per doubling season.

[rufus]

I was busy with school for a while, so I did not get to the numbers part yet. But yeah, Buyback effects are stupid. I think we should just ban it.

Also, what is the largest number if you were to ban Doubling season?

Hmm...

Doubling Cube
Ink-Treadeder Nephilim
Eye of the Storm
Heat Shimmer
Burning Wish

Double to 190 mana
Cast Nephilim and Eye of the storm 179 left
Play Heat Shimmer (copy Ink Treader) 176 mana left, 2 Nephilim in play.
Play Burning Wish - return it to your hand, and double the number of Nephilim in play. Repeat 87 more times.
Only 2^89 copies.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

What you would actually want to do is play Djinn, Opalescence, and Doubling Season. Cast Rite and Replicate it (13 total mana), allowing the replicate copy to resolve. Then Radiate the original Rite and Replicate Radiate 13 times. Each copy of Radiate resolves would be exponentially huger than the previous.

It might bust Graham's Number, but I'm not sure.

[jrsthethird]

Hmm...

Doubling Cube
Ink-Treadeder Nephilim
Eye of the Storm
Heat Shimmer
Burning Wish

Double to 190 mana
Cast Nephilim and Eye of the storm 179 left
Play Heat Shimmer (copy Ink Treader) 176 mana left, 2 Nephilim in play.
Play Burning Wish - return it to your hand, and double the number of Nephilim in play. Repeat 87 more times.
Only 2^89 copies.

This doesn't work since Burning Wish cannot grab a card from the Exile zone.

[MEATROCKET]

What you would actually want to do is play Djinn, Opalescence, and Doubling Season. Cast Rite and Replicate it (13 total mana), allowing the replicate copy to resolve. Then Radiate the original Rite and Replicate Radiate 13 times. Each copy of Radiate resolves would be exponentially huger than the previous.

It might bust Graham's Number, but I'm not sure.

It won't be anywhere near Graham's number. In fact, it wouldn't even come close to the number of digits of Graham's number.

In terms of Magic, though, that really would be enormous. It'd be interesting to see someone try to calculate it. I'd imagine that our personal computers would overflow, so someone would have to get crafty and just express it as powers of something...something huge...

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

It won't be anywhere near Graham's number. In fact, it wouldn't even come close to the number of digits of Graham's number.

In terms of Magic, though, that really would be enormous. It'd be interesting to see someone try to calculate it. I'd imagine that our personal computers would overflow, so someone would have to get crafty and just express it as powers of something...something huge...

As with most people, the distinction between a Googolplex and Graham's Number or any other big ass number kind of flies over my head. If the number of digits can't be realistically counted I'm lost. However, I'd like to know if you actually did any calculations to arrive at this conclusion, because the number we're talking about would certainly be in that "too big to actually be written down" category.

[MEATROCKET]

As with most people, the distinction between a Googolplex and Graham's Number or any other big ass number kind of flies over my head. If the number of digits can't be realistically counted I'm lost. However, I'd like to know if you actually did any calculations to arrive at this conclusion, because the number we're talking about would certainly be in that "too big to actually be written down" category.

You're correct that the number from your combo would be really, really big. But Graham's number still puts it to shame.

I didn't do any calculations because it's not necessary. If you can familiarize yourself with the up-arrow notation used in expressing Graham's number, just think of this: g_1 is a number so big that nobody can really comprehend it. Now realize that g_2 is 3^^...^^3, with g_1 many ^s. So we cannot even understand the number of arrows used to express g_2. And then realize that Graham's number is this process repeated, so that G = g_64. It's absurd, really, and is far, far, far larger than any number resulting from five cards in Magic (granted that there isn't an infinite combo, of course). To say that the number of digits "can't be realistically counted" is a vast understatement.

[rufus]

Yeah, Graham's number is much bigger than what we've come up with.

I think it's 'marginally' better to run Rite of Replicate once and then use Parallel Evolution instead of Radiate.

And, yeah, I forgot that the changes to the rules make the burning wish thing not work anymore. I found myself wonddering about the potential of Spellweaver Vollute + Eye of the Storm+ Pull from Eternity, but that just goes infinite.

So, I'm going to go with:
Highland Berserker or Halimar Excavator
Rite of Repliciation
Djinn Illumintus
Parralel Evolution
Fork/Twincast



Hmm.... Does Mana Reflection give you extra mana when you use a Doubling Cube?

[Pastorofmuppets]

It won't be anywhere near Graham's number. In fact, it wouldn't even come close to the number of digits of Graham's number.

In terms of Magic, though, that really would be enormous. It'd be interesting to see someone try to calculate it. I'd imagine that our personal computers would overflow, so someone would have to get crafty and just express it as powers of something...something huge...

we can express it as the power of satan overtaking your poor heathen soul, child. Repent from this, this tomfoolery of numbers that don't exist. Everything ends.
On a more serious note, why is Opalescence such a popular tool in these combos?

[jrsthethird]

Yeah, Graham's number is much bigger than what we've come up with.

I think it's 'marginally' better to run Rite of Replicate once and then use Parallel Evolution instead of Radiate.

And, yeah, I forgot that the changes to the rules make the burning wish thing not work anymore. I found myself wonddering about the potential of Spellweaver Vollute + Eye of the Storm+ Pull from Eternity, but that just goes infinite.

So, I'm going to go with:
Highland Berserker or Halimar Excavator
Rite of Repliciation
Djinn Illumintus
Parralel Evolution
Fork/Twincast

Djinn needs to be played before Rite so you can replicate it, right?

Might be nice to use Excavator, then Djinn, then Rite, then Radiate, and Fork the Radiate.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

It's much better to use Radiate. Radiate creates, on each iteration of Rite, a number of tokens equal to 5x (2^N), where N is the current number of tokens. And each Replication of Radiate creates a number of copies of Rite equal to the number of tokens currently in play. It's not merely exponential, but exponentially exponential (exponentially). Merely doubling the number of tokens in play at a time is drastically less efficient; replacing Radiate with Parallel Evolution would leave a number that's completely countable with place notation.

[rufus]

Djinn needs to be played before Rite so you can replicate it, right?

Might be nice to use Excavator, then Djinn, then Rite, then Radiate, and Fork the Radiate.

Doesn't really matter. You only want one Rite of Replication.


On a more serious note, why is Opalescence such a popular tool in these combos?
Opalescence+Doubling Season
because there's no cards that create enchantment tokens. Doubling Season seems to be the only way to go supergeometric.


It's much better to use Radiate. Radiate creates, on each iteration of Rite, a number of tokens equal to 5x (2^N), where N is the current number of tokens. And each Replication of Radiate creates a number of copies of Rite equal to the number of tokens currently in play...

For some reason I was thinking that all of the Radiate would resolve before the copies of Rite would, but that's not what would happen - rather, all of the rite copies will resolve before te next Radiate does. That makes it obvious that you want to copy rite once, an then radiate the original as much as possible.

[MEATROCKET]

Does each Doubling Season see itself? (You know, the way Pandemonium sees itself with Opalescence in play...I think)

Also, IBA, your PMs are full.