[Strategy / Hate] Help for the Goblins matchup

[MrShine]

Hey all,

I was just wondering what everyone's opinions were on the best sideboard/hate cards vs goblins are in each colour, and what each archetype can do to effectively beat them (the archetypes being aggro, control, combo, and aggro-control).

I'm personally interested in the control side of the debate, as since that is what I play most often and have yet to beat goblins in a tournament setting...

Some qualities to consider are flexibility of hate (as in what splash damage on other decks they have), efficacy, and use across a wide range of decks.

Just to start it off:

Black - Damnation, Engineered plague
White - Wrath of God, Humility, COP: Red, Warmth, Sphere of Law, Ghostly Prison
Blue - Wash Out, BEB, Propaganda
Red - Firespout, Pyroclasm
Green - ?

EDIT:
Some issues/questions to think about:
Is Engineered plague good if there is an abundance of other tribal in your meta? Can it be played as less than a four of? If there is an abundance of tribal, does it justify playing hate/sweepers over spot removal?
I have found most of these hate cards too slow to actually affect the board before you get run over; is there anyway to rectify this?

Kill the Red Menace!

[nitewolf9]

Green - ?


http://sales.starcitygames.com/cardscans/MAGFUT/tarmogoyf.jpg

Also, I guess I might have missed the memo, but when did goblins start dominating the format again? And if you really want to hate on the deck, it doesn't get much better than Engineered Plague + clock + stable manabase.

[Bahamuth]

Black - Damnation, Engineered plague


Ad Nauseam, Ill-Gotten Gains, Doomsday.

[Mark Sun]

Ad Nauseam, Ill-Gotten Gains, Doomsday.

Well done, haha.

You missed Artifact: Umezawa's Jitte.


Wrath of God/Damnation does nothing, btw, it just Time Walks them, as the Matron/Ringleader engine will just reset the board state. You can probably at least help a little with Propaganda/Ghostly Prison, however.

[MrShine]

http://sales.starcitygames.com/cardscans/MAGFUT/tarmogoyf.jpg

Also, I guess I might have missed the memo, but when did goblins start dominating the format again? And if you really want to hate on the deck, it doesn't get much better than Engineered Plague + clock + stable manabase.

Considering engineered plague comes down turn 3 (T2 with accelerators), they are likely to have 2/2s or pump effects by then... necessitating a second plague / many plow effects... Have people found success with Plague?

And its not that goblins is dominating the meta, I have just personally found it to be a hard matchup without multiple StP effects AND creatures to stall/race Ringleader.

On that note, can plow effects alone make this matchup better?

EDIT: Jitte IS good, for sure. It seems the best plan here is to either beat them with better creatures or just ignore them and combo out... Is there no hope for control?

[Nessaja]

Kitchen Finks, Pernicious Deed, Blue Elemental Blast... Progenitus (Zoo), 1 mana spot removal like bolt/chain/stp/path. Keeping them low on mana.. Maze of Ith, Mishra's Factory (with recursion).

[whienot]

Dueling Grounds

[(nameless one)]

Zoo in general

[Malchar]

Engineered Plague is a lot more useful than Damnation. You automatically win if you resolve 2 plagues, and just one plague is approximately a one-sided damnation. It is extremely hard to lose to goblins once you resolve a plague. Perhaps the best thing about plague is that it doubles as a utility against merfolk decks and empty the warrens. All-in-all, it's much more useful than damnation. Then again, damnation should probably be maindeck if you're considering it at all.

As for goblins countering with their own +1/+1 effects, it's not all that likely since goblins can't get those effects online until turn 3 either. The only other way would be if they actually managed to connect with a lackey, in which case you're certainly going to lose anyway. Besides, if they need a lord to keep their army alive, then you can watch them all die once you spot remove the lord.

[FoulQ]

If you want to kill goblins, I recommend ghostly prison + clock, or recurring manlands. If you are really desperate, don't forget Tivadar's Crusade. Most goblins lists I see nowadays don't care about plague, because goblins isn't good enough for people to usually run those in their sideboard. If you are playing some landstill thing, some basic lands, crucible + factory, and humility + plague should be enough to put them down.

[mchainmail]

Silsilent arbiter, moat?

[wcm8]

Green has elephant grass. This is typically seen as 'just' an Enchantress card, but most control builds running green can put it in.

[emidln]

Aether Flash

[hi-val]

Tsabo's Decree has a bit of finality to it.

[xsockmonkeyx]

Green - ?

I once saw someone using Hail Storm to kill Goblins. I havent tried it personally though.

[jrsthethird]

Chill, Sword of Fire and Ice, Tivadar of Thorn, Volcanic Fallout, Flamebreak, Chain Reaction, Tabernacle effects, Moat effects

[Mark Sun]

Dueling Grounds

Whoa, welcome back to 2006. That's awesome! :smile:

[SpeedOfDark]

Engineered plague is the way to go for sure. Other than that, you want:
1. goldfish faster
2. larger creatures with some cheap spot removal (zoo for example)

Random funny fact about goblins:
doran, the siege tower >>>>>> goblin piledriver

[Raystar]

The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

Combined with any combination of Ghostly Prison, Propaganda, Elephant Grass, etc.

[Eldariel]

Kitchen Finks, Pernicious Deed, Blue Elemental Blast... Progenitus (Zoo), 1 mana spot removal like bolt/chain/stp/path. Keeping them low on mana.. Maze of Ith, Mishra's Factory (with recursion).

Finks sucks vs. Goblins; it just gives them easy targets for Gempalm Incinerators. Just like vs. Zoo, what you want vs. Goblins are creatures too big for them to kill with cantripping removal or simple attacks. As they can swing for 20 out of nowhere, small lifegain is pretty weak there. Mishra's Factory likewise is just too small/slow/weak to be relevant (c'mon now, between Ports, Wastes and Gempalms, wasting your time with it is gonna lose you more games than it's gonna win).

Cheap big creatures, sweepers, fast clock, some way to take control (e.g. Jitte). That's always been the recipe for beating Goblins. Well, that or a nuclear bomb like Humility, but those are always hard to drop in time due to mana disruption. But yeah, big creatures >>> Finks. Wild Nacatl is much better an SB card there simply because it's harder to kill and doesn't cost you arm and leg.