[Archetype Discussion] Goblins vs. Vampires

[(nameless one)]

Basically the question is what does Goblins (or Merfolks/Elves) have that Vampires don't?

I remember when me and my friends first saw a glimpse of Goblins. At first, I didn't realize their potential (but then I was a noob). They had so much with them that they took not just Standard but Extended and even the old Type 1.5 format by storm.

Now, when I first saw the Vampires from Zendikar, I had this initial though that they're a little overpowered. But even with their overpowerness, they do not seem to dominate Standard (theyre only second to Jund) like Goblins used to back in their Onslaught days.

Granted that Goblins have a great tribal synergy, Vampire does have enough tribal synergy that would make it good enough to be tribal. Also, Vampire's creatures by themselves are good enough with the format. Why can't that small tribal synergy make them better in this format?

What makes Goblins so good that the Vampires dont have?

Discuss.

[Aggro_zombies]

Goblins has a Demonic Tutor that leaves behind a 1/1.

Goblins has a Fact or Fiction that leaves behind a 2/2 with haste.

Goblins has a 1/2 that regularly gets seven or more power when attacking.

Goblins has a two different one-mana ways and one two-mana way to cheat its creatures into play.

Vampires has...what? The one-drops aren't playable, the only decent two-drop in the format is Highborn, the lord is not that great and they don't really recover well from sweepers like Goblins can. Trying to go aggro-control like Merfolk will fail because counters are better than discard and Merfolk has a lot of lords to offset how badly its creatures suck individually - something Vampires does not have.

[FoolofaTook]

Theoretically Vampires has Vampire Hexmage/Dark Depths, Gatekeeper of Malakir, Vampire Nighthawk, Bloodghast, Kalastria Highborn and even Malakir Bloodwitch - which is like a Sengir Vampire on crack. Add in Dark Confidant, Smother, Snuff Out, Smallpox, Hymn to Tourach, Thoughtseize, Sinkhole, Rishadan Port, Wasteland, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, Volrath's Stronghold and either or both of Dark Ritual and Aether Vial and you'd think somebody could sort the mess out into not one but several highly competitive decks.

[kicks_422]

Add in Dark Confidant, Smother, Snuff Out, Smallpox, Hymn to Tourach, Thoughtseize, Sinkhole, Rishadan Port, Wasteland, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, Volrath's Stronghold and either or both of Dark Ritual and Aether Vial and you'd think somebody could sort the mess out into not one but several highly competitive decks.

You could pair those cards with other things and you'd still have a somewhat competitive deck.

[FoulQ]

I think the mentality that "goblins/merfolk being successful means tribal works in legacy" is very flawed.

Both goblins and merfolk are very unique tribes. If we look at merfolk, we can see it is basically monocolored counterslivers with some different good/bad matchups. It wins because of standstill and other bomb blue cards along with a decent clock, but that clock has been successful because it gives the deck mana stability and is just as quick as any multicolored creature base. With goblins, we have a lot of unique cards that no other tribe has: lackey, matron, ringleader. Now, other tribes have ringleaders, but the goblin version is stronger because of the other unique goblin cards. All the pieces are necessary, and goblins is honestly borderline competitive even with the many funky good cards that Wizards has printed for them. And elves are eh not really competitive, but they have great combo potential which makes them unique.

Vampires to me is a nameless monocolor tribe. The cards are efficient like merfolk, but they aren't blue like merfolk, they are black, and black is average. But efficiency isn't what makes goblins (or I suppose...elves...) playable, it is the funky cards. I actually came to the exact opposite conclusion as FoolofaTook: playing a deck like he describes sounds like a horribly inconsistent scrubout weekend. Why not play consistently awesome aggro decks, some just as cheap? Zoo, Merfolk, Bant, even more fringe decks like Eva Green, Deadguy, they all are models of efficiency that can stop many more problems than a monoblack vampire list.

[FoolofaTook]

You could pair those cards with other things and you'd still have a somewhat competitive deck.

That's my basic point. Vampires has a few specific cards that look really good in the meta right now and then there's the whole load of broken stuff that has been abused in black aggro decks successfully over the years. You'd think somebody could figure out how to add Diabolic Edict with legs plus potential turn 2 20/20 flyer plus some combo of the other Vampires mentioned into something pretty good given all the support already there.

I highly doubt that you get a better deck than Goblins out of it but I suspect you can get a similar power level, just rotated around the rock-paper-scissors curve slightly.

[Michael Keller]

Theoretically Vampires has Vampire Hexmage/Dark Depths, Gatekeeper of Malakir, Vampire Nighthawk, Bloodghast, Kalastria Highborn and even Malakir Bloodwitch - which is like a Sengir Vampire on crack. Add in Dark Confidant, Smother, Snuff Out, Smallpox, Hymn to Tourach, Thoughtseize, Sinkhole, Rishadan Port, Wasteland, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, Volrath's Stronghold and either or both of Dark Ritual and Aether Vial and you'd think somebody could sort the mess out into not one but several highly competitive decks.

Been there, done that. (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?16885)

[(nameless one)]

Its funny because if you build Aggro-Elves without following Goblin's or Merfolk's Guideline, they could actually be good. I built mine ala X-land Stompy and added a lot of redundant elements and it seems to work for me.

I am not saying that its a Tier 1 because it still has its weak matchups (Combo and Land Destruction) but a lot of decks do sputter when they have their mana-base disrupted. I know that Elves have almost zero disruption but with elements like Winter Orb, they can somehow disrupt.

Anyways, back to Vampires, if it was built differently from Goblins and Merfolk, would it somehow glue together? I mean Faeries can be competitive too but they dont necessarily have the same elements as Goblins or Merfolks have.

[Eldariel]

What tribal synergies are there in Vampires that make it worth playing Vampires over a bunch of good black creatures? I hardly think Vampire Nocturnus and Malakir Bloodwitch are good enough to warrant a tribe alone. Why are you building Vampire-tribal over Sui Black? Why are you building Sui Black over Bg Suicide? I just...don't really see what benefit you really get from going Vampire-tribal.

Goblins have:
- R-drop that drops up to 5-drops in play.
- 1R-drop that can easily swing as a 7/2
- 1R removal spell that cantrips
- 2R Demonic Tutor that comes with a body
- 3R Fact or Fiction
- 1RR Fervor+Ruby Medallion+2/2

And so on. Effects like that are worth playing tribal for. Merfolk? Well, let's see:

Merfolk have:
- UU Lord that gives unblockability and +1/+1 vs. most of the format
- 2U Lord that makes blocking an exercise in futility and accelerates
- 1U 2/1 that cantrips

The lords are strong enough to make the tribe worth playing. And still, the tribe isn't strong enough to dedicate an entire deck to, but to serve as a powerful basis for a fish-deck with the best blue spells, land disruption and artifacts.


Already the fact that Vampires' tribal effects are 4- and 5-drops makes them "bad". Sure, there's Kalastria Highborn, but effects like that aren't worth playing a bunch of suboptimal cards for. That's really the crux of the issue; you're playing suboptimal cards to fuel your mediocre lords. In Goblins, you actually don't have to play suboptimal cards since basically every card has sufficiently powerful tribal synergy, or is inherently strong enough (Aether Vial), to make them solid.

In Merfolk, you play arguably 1 not-outstanding card (Cursecatcher), which is still incredibly strong, as a roleplayer to support the tribal shell of the deck and just about every other guy in the deck is a creature strong enough that you'd play it in a non-tribal deck if it had a non-tribal effect. And then you add the best blue cards for a mana denial plan and call it a day.

In Vampires? You have no excuse not to play Dark Confidant, Tombstalker (except each other), Nantuko Shade, Tarmogoyf and...why are you playing Vampires again? Your non-Vampire options are just much better. There's like maybe Vampire Nighthawk and Gatekeeper of Malakir that can be worth playing outside Vampires and that's about it; Hexmage is only good in Dark Depths and Bloodghast pretty much requires Ichorid-type approach. And even if all your Vampires are quality, the Lords themselves still aren't all that strong.

[Bardo]

@ OP - Danger of Things that Seem Kick-ass, but Aren't.

(For the reasons FoulQ and Eldariel mention.)

[Watcher487]

While Vampires are nice and all. You need to look at it from other values here. Goblins has been given so many additional things since it's 'Big Boom' in Onslaught. All Vampires have right now in Magic is only 44 different creatures (not including Changlings) and most of them are Legendary or 4+cc which doesn't exactly bring you to the speed that Goblins have with 243 different creatures where most are well under that 4cc.

I'm actually surprised at this debate really. Personally if I was looking to build a mono-black tribal deck, I would first look to Zombies than Vampires.

-More and Better lords (Cemetery Reaper, Death Baron, Lord of the Undead and even Zombie Warchief are better)
-Simple 1 and 2 drops to get you to the mid-game
-Recurable Removal as well

[Rico Suave]

The only reason Goblins sees play is because of Goblin Lackey. Vampires have no such acceleration.

Non-Merfolk blue decks rely on playing creatures to stall aggressive rushes. The only reason Merfolk sees any success is because Lords give Islandwalk to dodge the defenses of the other blue decks. Vampires have no such advantage over a popular archetype.

[walkerdog]

Vamps have a pretty good reason to not be good yet: They have had like 1.5 sets dedicated to them, vs Goblin.block... oopps, onslaught, plus randomly ridiculous gobs showing up throughout MTG's history. Elves and mer are the same. Mer are the only tribe with three lords all with pretty useful abilities. Goblins has a ton of lords and semi-lords (warchief for example). Elves... They have all sorts of nutty interactions due to randomly useful elves being printed (once again) throughout MTG's history. If wtc supports vamps heavily, and they may for a few years to ride Twilight's coattails (every little bit helps right?), then Vamps will likely be a legacy tribe that is decent at some point.

[menace13]

There are only 3 Vampires that are playable: Hexmage,Gatekeeper and Nighthawk as of now.
Needs a 2 mana lord at least along with a sick 1 drop. A build could use Bad Moon like Kithkins use Honor, but lacks Ajani or tribal token generators.

Goblins has a plethora of insanely good duders that enable it to refill, tutor and all sorts of gimmicks let alone the 2 lackeys.
Merfolks have the best spells in the game and Elves has tons of tricks,lords and ramps and can even go combo.

[Cthuloo]

Imho there are 5 things that a tribe needs to be efficient in legacy:

1) a decent curve for the early game (in particular a good one drop)
2) a way to cheat guys into play (beside vial)
3) a decent cheap lord
4) a way to provide CA to account for the lategame
5) some control elements with synergy with the deck

Let's check the points for Goblins, Merfolks, Vampires and Zombies.

Goblins:

1) Curve is perfect with t1 lackey or in the worst case mogg fanatic, t2 piledriver/instigator/stingscourger, t3 chieftain/matron/warchief
2) Lackey and instigator. Do I need to say more?
3) Chieftain/warchief. In addition, Piledriver acts as a lord, in the sense that it is more powerful the more goblins you have.
4) Matron, Ringleader, Siegegang, even Incinerator
5) Incinerator and warren weirdind, plus waste/port, that work well with vial/lackey/warchief

Merfolk:

1) Cursecatcher is only decent, but the rest of the curve is nice with t2 adept/lord/standstill, t3 waketrasher/sovereign/reejerey
2) Reejerey allows to some insane turn, especially after a broken standstill
3) LoA is maybe the best lord, it's simply one mana cheaper than it should be, and both reejerey and sovereign aren't bad, definitely.
4) Adept and Standstill are more than enough.
5) Force, daze, waste, eventually stifle, cursecatcher. Not bad.

Vampires:

1) One drops are barely playable, two drops are decent but definitely not on par with the other tribes, three drops (including gatekeeper) and more are pretty strong.
2) Dark ritual isn't really a tribal strategy, but they tell me that it works, nevertheless.
3) The only good lord costs 4 mana, and isn't even guaranteed to work. Fail.
4) Gatekeeper, maybe bloodghast are nothing that can compete with other tribes engines
5) Discard, gatekeeper, creature removal, land denial if needed. A good package indeed.

Zombies:

1) Curve is horrible. Carnophage and Sarcomancy are no more scary as they used to be, Rotting Giant and Wretched Anurid make Tarmogoyf laugh out loud. Going for a control strategy you can have t1 Festering Goblin, t2 Whithered Wretch/Tidehollow Sculler, but it's nothing to be very proud of.
2) See Vampires.
3) Death Baron is definitely strong. The other options aren't as good, unfortunately. Why the hell should Undead Warchief cost 4?
4) Lord of the Undead and Graveborn Muse aren't bad, but pretty damn slow. Grave Defiler is also slightly worse than ringleader, but does still its job.
5) See Vampires, substituting Gatekeeper with Fleshbag Marauder.

Vampires fail on points 1 (partially), 3, 4. Zombies fail on 1, 3 (partially), 4 (well, here we can say they half succeed). Imho, this is why those tribe are not competitive, and why Zombies are a bit closer to became competitive than vampires.

[Clark Kant]

A better question would be...

What do goblins and merfolk have that Elves don't have?

Elves are in my opinion, the most underrated and underused tribe in legacy. They have fantastic lords, absurdly good synergy, tons of 1cc mana generators that let you cheat creatures into play, and their own Fact or Fiction on a 2/2 stick (that they can bounce back and reuse over and over again.

[Nessaja]

Goblins are slightly better at rebuilding after a sweeper then Elves are. They also generate card advantage more naturally. I think the biggest difference is Goblin Matron, if Elves had an Elf Matron they'd be superior.

There are many things that Elves are superior at, it's just a archetype that many players miss-use - people haven't settled on a list even though some very good lists float around.

[MattH]

It doesn't help that one of the strongest vampires, Gatekeeper, is really dis-synergistic with the strongest "many creatures" card, Aether Vial.

[jrsthethird]

I could see a Vampires deck like this:

22 Lands
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Dark Depths
7 Swamp

7 Artifacts
4 Aether Vial
3 Sensei's Divining Top

Creatures
4 sick future 1 drop
4 Vampire Hexmage
3 Kalastria Highborn
4 future token generator
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Vampire Nocturnus
4 new Vampire Lord or card advantage dude
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir

The missing links are what makes Goblins and Merfolk tier 1 decks.

The cool part is you can take your Rishadan Ports and Wastelands, usually used for mana disruption, and have them make colored mana with Urborg. This lets a deck that is absolutely crazy color-intensive (1 guy costs BBB, 4 guys cost BB, and 2 of those need more B to really be effective). Also, your lord might be clunky, being 4 mana and occasionally turned off, when he's on he's absolutely nuts because

1. Unlike other lords, he pumps himself.
2. He offers evasion as well as pumping and can end the game with one swing if you curve out well.

Cool tricks with Aether Vial: Vial in a Hexmage for first strike blocker, Vial in Hexmage at EOT to pop Dark Depths, Vial in Nighthawk as a blocker for a removal spell, Highborn in response to a sweeper to kill your opponent. Gatekeeper is good enough to be worth the dissynergy with Vial.

[Arrowni]

Soldiers would be a better fit than Vampires doing this methinks, if only for having some ways of cheating each other into play.

[Gocho]

Goblins are slightly better at rebuilding after a sweeper then Elves are. They also generate card advantage more naturally. I think the biggest difference is Goblin Matron, if Elves had an Elf Matron they'd be superior.

There are many things that Elves are superior at, it's just a archetype that many players miss-use - people haven't settled on a list even though some very good lists float around.

What about Elvish Harbinger? Is almost a Matron, but don't cantrip himself.

Wirewood Herald would help to rebuild.

[jrsthethird]

Mirri the Cursed is pretty good too, but not like we're looking for 4-drops here.

[Nessaja]

What about Elvish Harbinger? Is almost a Matron, but don't cantrip himself.
That's a huge difference. What Elvish Harbinger offers isn't worth 3 mana.

[SpeedOfDark]

why they rule:
merfolk: fastest blue tribal. Slower than goblins and elves, but makes up by the fact that they have access to all of blue's goodness.
goblins: fastest consistent tribal aggro.
elves: slower than goblins in aggro, but arguably faster in combo. However elf combos are usually very easy to disrupt.

[SpeedOfDark]

That's a huge difference. What Elvish Harbinger offers isn't worth 3 mana.

Agreed. The only time I think she is ever worth anything is if you are about to play a sylvan messenger right after her. But that's too situational and still too expensive, there are a ton of elves better suited for an elf deck. And if you really need a tutor, then play with weird harvest or something. At least this one can go broken if you have a lot of mana available.

[Tacosnape]

Two things.

1. 1-drops.

2. Inevitability.

Goblins has Goblin Lackey and Vampires doesn't (And don't even try to make the comparison between Dark Ritual and Lackey - They aren't even in the same universe in this context) and Goblins wins a lot more long games than Vampires.

[Eldariel]

Since Elves were bought into the discussion, let's not forget that they ARE finishing rather well; they lie just below the radar, but consistently put up a couple of Top 8s each month. They tend to be split over multiple archetypes though (Elf Survival has been a part of Survival's DTW-status on multiple occasions) and there's little unified discussion on comparing the pros and cons of the various approaches and the development of various Elf-builds is kinda slow, and very little optimization has been done on that front, while Vial Goblins and Merfolk have pretty much been optimized to the 75th.

Nobody has figured out exactly what approach is optimal for Elves, and it's not surprising given Elves lend themselves well to multiple different types of combo decks and aggro-builds; while building Goblins or Merfolk is rather straightforward (though Goblin Sligh hung around for aeons until Vial Gobs pretty much took over the tribe), with Elves there's a ton more different routes the deck could take due to the large number of Elves of relatively equal efficiency with various upsides and downsides. Contrast Goblins where the core of the deck is heads and shoulders above most of the options, and Merfolk where only a handful of cards in existence do what you want done and thus you pretty much have to play them. It doesn't help that in addition to huge number of relatively equal solid Elves (and various combinations inside the tribe), there's a large number of very powerful support spells available for the deck in green.


If talking about "good Legacy tribals", I'd have no qualms listing Elves up there, right after Goblins and Merfolk.

[(nameless one)]

I agree, Elves are there. It is under-appreciated because it doesnt have a certain build.

Some will run it with Survival, Some straight aggro and some combo.

I think the reason why Elves is also under-appreciated is because they do not have the ability to disrupt. But really, the efficiency and redundancy of Elves make up for lacking the ability to disrupt.

Honestly, I have yet to miss a top8 with Elves around my area. The only reason why I am playing other decks is because I did not want to look like a total noob. Plus almost everyone in my playgroup would dedicated half of their sideboard against Tribal.

[Cthuloo]

Two things.

1. 1-drops.

2. Inevitability.

Goblins has Goblin Lackey and Vampires doesn't (And don't even try to make the comparison between Dark Ritual and Lackey - They aren't even in the same universe in this context) and Goblins wins a lot more long games than Vampires.

Even though I agree that one cannot really compare Lackey and Ritual, I think the biggest difference is that Goblins can accelerate into really broken stuff (Warchief, Siege-Gang, Ringleader, Matron), while Vampires can accelerate into... what, nighthawk?

[pippo84]

Merfolk and Goblins are really good decks.
I think Elves have a lot of potential and are just below Goblins and Merfolk. They can play combo or aggro, they are very fast and can also play NO Progenitus if they want to.
Vampires on the other hand have nothing. Ok Nighthawk is really strong, but then? No 1 drops, no drops at 2, and no draw engine.
Black offers just Dark Ritual (but it has a completely different use of Goblin Lackey) and Thoughtseize (but Merfolk have counters that's better). Vampires are slow, and don't have a good mid-range strategy so they are awful.

[troopatroop]

Yeah, but the soldier "cheat into play" costs 3 AND needs to attack.

[Infinitium]

The soldier core of Preeminent Captain, Enlistment Officer and Mirror Entity is actually mighty strong in a Chalice Aggro shell (along certain intruiguing cards such as Elspeth and Noble Templar). Burrenton Bombardier also works surprisingly well as a combat trick/lord of sorts. I'd keep an eye out for it once wizards starts to print playable 2W soldiers (which is probably just a matter of time since it's a supported tribe at the time being).

As for elves, let's not forget that they've gained some amazing new cards for the past year. Archdruid and Joraga Warcaller are both bombs in constructed legacy, and the cantrip elf is amazing way to promote resilience as well as another draw engine with symbiote. Saying that the combo is easily disrupted is also something of a misnomer as the deck is literally composed of fast mana and card advantae engines and can run answers maindeck (ie Viridian Zealot) courtesy of Summoner's Pact or survival.

EDIT: Also the posting interphase needs a "cards" quickbutton big time.

[Gocho]

EDIT: Also the posting interphase needs a "cards" quickbutton big time.

I Agree

[jrsthethird]

The soldier core of Preeminent Captain, Enlistment Officer and Mirror Entity is actually mighty strong in a Chalice Aggro shell (along certain intruiguing cards such as Elspeth and Noble Templar). Burrenton Bombardier also works surprisingly well as a combat trick/lord of sorts. I'd keep an eye out for it once wizards starts to print playable 2W soldiers (which is probably just a matter of time since it's a supported tribe at the time being).

As for elves, let's not forget that they've gained some amazing new cards for the past year. Archdruid and Joraga Warcaller are both bombs in constructed legacy, and the cantrip elf is amazing way to promote resilience as well as another draw engine with symbiote. Saying that the combo is easily disrupted is also something of a misnomer as the deck is literally composed of fast mana and card advantae engines and can run answers maindeck (ie Viridian Zealot) courtesy of Summoner's Pact or survival.

EDIT: Also the posting interphase needs a "cards" quickbutton big time.

Also Ballyrush Banneret for Warchief-effects.

[Antonius]

I wouldn't be surprised if elves comes out of no where and wins one of these upcoming SCG opens. The deck is very, very powerful, with so many different ways to function. The best builds, IMO, are 10 lord builds with survival and NO prog. Forestwalk gets there, Sylvan messenger is just as good as Lackey and mana dorks > Aether Vial (though aether vial's function is sorely missed sometimes).

As for Team Edward, I have a friend that's done surprisingly well with her build. But comparing Vampires to Goblins, Folk, Elves and other weenie tribes is kind of pointless. There are only four truly playable vamps: Gatekeeper, Nighthawk, Nocturnus and Bloodwitch. And as everyone's pointed out, none of those are 1-2cc, so the form of the deck naturally has to compensate by going to a more midrange strategy.
Splashing red for firespout or green for deed seems sensible, as that would allow you to abuse the fact that your dudes have flying and high CMC. Sure, there isn't as much synergy between vampires as there is in Folk/Goblins/Elves, but you really only need two vampires to blow someone out: Nighthawk and Nocturnus. That leaves room for the rest of the cards in your deck to be answers and board sweepers. And, don't forget that no matter how much the game progresses, or what new cards are printed, sometimes throwing hymns up someones ass is enough to just get there.

Also, somebody mentioned Zombie tribal? It already exists as a competitive deck. Some people call it Ichorid, but I prefer to think of it as zombies, seeing as how it makes like 14 of them on turn 2.

[mercs]

Also, somebody mentioned Zombie tribal? It already exists as a competitive deck. Some people call it Ichorid, but I prefer to think of it as zombies, seeing as how it makes like 14 of them on turn 2.

LOL, I very much agree that dredge is the premier zombie varient.
In terms of grading, Elves does receive high marks, but I usually go by a different way of ranking. (still 5 cat's but semi-different aspects). It also works to rank most decks in the meta.

In no order of importance:
1. consistency - for consistent cheats and good curves
2. aggro - how much of an undisrupted clock they can make
3. recovery - best change in momentum. ie: after a sweep
4. disruption - do they removalcreatures/components from hand/grave/play?
5. control - do they set up well defensively or lock out ppl in any way.

Then i give an estimate of the decks ability in that cat from 1-10. (10 being best)

HERE"S GOBLINS (a little inflated, but just to provide an example) ==39/50
1. 9
2. 10
3. 8
4. 7
5. 5 -some rate waste/port higher, but i do not imo.

Merfolk == 39/50
1. 8
2. 9
3. 7
4. 7
5. 8

Zombies (dredge- i rated 4 & 5 a bit high b/c of the consistent therapy and iona strategies) ==37/50
1. 9
2. 10
3. 4
4. 7
5. 7

Vampires (-_-) == 27/50
1. 8
2. 5
3. 2
4. 7
5. 5

Elves (-_-) ==26/50
1. 9
2. 9
3. 4
4. 1
5. 3

This makes it much more clear (for me) as to why elves has a hard time. It's recovery skills are fairly average, and it has no disruption/defense mechanism.

As for vampires, they don't put on a good natural clock, so they have to really heavily on decent (but not amazing), disruption strategy to get going. This just doesn't seem like it can survive in a meta, where i feel zoo looks like this:

Zoo == 41/50
1. 9
2. 10
3. 7
4. 8
5. 6

AGAIN, these are strictly just my opinion on the rankings. If you feel differently about how i graded, let me know! As far as I'm concerned, the holes in elves and vampires will drop their overall value in anyone's grading in the end.

[Mystical_Jackass]

Vampires get dark ritual and card removal with black. That's a good start. But because of its higher cmc, its gonna run on a slower clock putting in more mid-deck range... legacy is either Fast Aggro, Fast Combo (win before you lose), or control in most cases. For all cases Vamps is a lil' too slow.

Vamps get their version of savannah lion, lacerator, and bloodghast. Other than that, they can't compete with the speed and incessant cantrips of goblins when it comes to fast aggro and racing decks like burn or combo. And just a lil' slow to put a dent or kill control decks like MBC, Stax, Landstill. But the #1 reason, imo, is not enough people play it. Think about it, if everyone uses burn.. you will probably see more burn decks placing, common sense.

[beez]

I wouldn't be surprised if elves comes out of no where and wins one of these upcoming SCG opens. The deck is very, very powerful, with so many different ways to function. The best builds, IMO, are 10 lord builds with survival and NO prog. Forestwalk gets there, Sylvan messenger is just as good as Lackey and mana dorks > Aether Vial (though aether vial's function is sorely missed sometimes).

As for Team Edward, I have a friend that's done surprisingly well with her build. But comparing Vampires to Goblins, Folk, Elves and other weenie tribes is kind of pointless. There are only four truly playable vamps: Gatekeeper, Nighthawk, Nocturnus and Bloodwitch. And as everyone's pointed out, none of those are 1-2cc, so the form of the deck naturally has to compensate by going to a more midrange strategy.
Splashing red for firespout or green for deed seems sensible, as that would allow you to abuse the fact that your dudes have flying and high CMC. Sure, there isn't as much synergy between vampires as there is in Folk/Goblins/Elves, but you really only need two vampires to blow someone out: Nighthawk and Nocturnus. That leaves room for the rest of the cards in your deck to be answers and board sweepers. And, don't forget that no matter how much the game progresses, or what new cards are printed, sometimes throwing hymns up someones ass is enough to just get there.

Also, somebody mentioned Zombie tribal? It already exists as a competitive deck. Some people call it Ichorid, but I prefer to think of it as zombies, seeing as how it makes like 14 of them on turn 2.

Exactly on the vamp stuff!! I have found this out the hard way trying to play vamps competitively. But I have had some pretty successful runs on other days because as he says just busting up someone with a couple hymn's and other black nastiness making it hard to keep any creatures out, or cards in their hand, or them having a graveyard, can go a long way when you only need a turn or two with a nocturnus or a creature or two to finish it off. I have found it is all about the midgame rather than a super fast start (other than key discarding) or a poor long game. Honestly the Gate looks to be better at using the key cards and doesn't need the vampire synergy anyway for the beatdown only having to reserve an edict for Percy.

[catmint]

A better question would be...

What do goblins and merfolk have that Elves don't have?

Elves are in my opinion, the most underrated and underused tribe in legacy. They have fantastic lords, absurdly good synergy, tons of 1cc mana generators that let you cheat creatures into play, and their own Fact or Fiction on a 2/2 stick (that they can bounce back and reuse over and over again.

I would not say that Goblins and Merfolk are generally "stronger" tribes. Also evles is not underused IMO. Metagame changes aside (becuase Merfolk was so high and is so bad right now...). Elves always kept showing up in GP's/Big Tournament Top 16 or local tourneys before and after Mental Misste...just like Goblins.

Comparing the 3 tribes in a vacuum:

Merfolk has the best color and preys on the best color with Lord of Atlantais & Cursecatcher

Goblins have some sick grinding potential. I agree comapred to elves the biggest advantage is matron, but they are still missing haste and piledriver which is important or tutorable edict/direct damage or card neutral removal effects to make aggro elves a deck.

But why would you try to grind like goblins if the natural synergy is enabling you to kill the opponent by turn 3 60% of the time making an almost infinite amount of mana.

So in a tournament between these 3 tribes: elves is clearly the best and beats the others by a comfortable margin (even though Merfolk has some counterspells). In the real world out there elves is a combo deck that looses to other combo decks and is altough more powerful in what it does much less consistant than the other 2 tribes.

[RJM]

Whoa, necro'd from almost 2 years ago?

It is always interesting to read what feels good or not good enough for legacy according to players even just 2 years ago, though.

And before this gets locked, just have to say, if I was going to play tribal in legacy right now... It'd be zombies. Suck it, vamps.

[beez]

My vamps do ok for tribal even in small legacy tournys. It is very hard to keep a hand or a creature in play against them. using it more as black control is more successful than straight aggro as it can't match other tribes ramp.

I play a lot of merfolk too and in matchups such as zoo, elves, goblins and other stuff that counters can't keep up with it can be effective to make the merfolk actually MORE aggro. Rather than siding in dismember and creature steal spells that can only do so much, I just side out cursecatcher and daze (which are totally ineffective against zoo and cheap tribal ramp) and put in Wake Thrashers and Sleep and/or Cryptic Command. Tap their creatures, swing for 10, their creatures don't untap with sleep or you tap again with rejerry and swing for another 10 or more.

[TsumiBand]

Using Goblins as any kind of basis for actively seeking out tribal strategies is just missing the point. Goblins is a good example of an aggro-control deck with a fuckton of synergy. Goblin Lackey puts Goblin Matron into play, which searches for Goblin Ringleader which puts Goblins in your hand which makes spells that count Goblins better (Piledriver, Gempalm Incinerator) and other Goblins happen to have a ton of interactions with fellow Goblins. The fact that they're all Goblins just means that; they're all Goblins. I don't think going and looking for tribes that stand up against what happens to be an aggro-control deck chock full of inbred synergy gives one lease to try and make an argument for another tribe just because "they do stuff, too."

Goblins also has a lot of very intentional synergy, in that R&D went, "Welp, Goblins is a deck. So Red creatures have to be Goblins to be good pretty much." and then it was like, the minute a Red creature with a relevant ETB trigger needed to be printed, they just went ahead and made it a Goblin. If they'd all been Kithkin or Frogs we wouldn't have given a second shit about it.

The minute they start printing Vampires that suck each other off as much as Goblins do, then one can go looking for that oh-so-crucial tribal synergy that makes Goblins a deck. But otherwise you're just arbitrarily sticking to a creature type. Vampire Nighthawk stands out because it does a billion things; it blocks and kills anything on the D, and it flies and lifelinks on the O. That's awesome. Pairing it with a Lord is cute, but it doesn't really have more internal synergy than that. When they start printing Vampires that rival Ringleader, Warchief and Matron, maybe there will be something to talk about.

[beez]

"If they'd all been Kithkin or Frogs we wouldn't have given a second shit about it."

that is so true

[DragoFireheart]

The minute they start printing Vampires that suck each other off...

Was this suppose to be a bad joke? Blood sucking Vampires?

[TsumiBand]

Was this suppose to be a bad joke? Blood sucking Vampires?

No, I was literally referring to Vampires needing to fellate each other like Goblins.dec does, because they don't even touch that tribe's capacity to synergize almost exclusively with themselves. I missed a golden opportunity though, good catch I guess.

[DragoFireheart]

No, I was literally referring to Vampires needing to fellate each other like Goblins.dec does, because they don't even touch that tribe's capacity to synergize almost exclusively with themselves. I missed a golden opportunity though, good catch I guess.

I gave you a huge opening with that post I made. WHAT THE FUCK :frown: