[SCD] Inquisition of Kozilek (spoiler)

[Ciberon]

The card:
http://www.wizards.com/mtg/images/tcg/products/riseoftheeldrazi/mmbe7rmg3r_EN.jpg

It seems to me that any deck packing a fair ammount of discard could want to use this one. I realise it's downside of not taking Force of Will and Natural Order, but what other cards heavily played at the moment can't it take?

As far as I've thought, it could be thoughtseize 5-8 for those who don't want to play duress because it does not nail creatures.

Since Legacy is becomming faster, is this a card to be played?

[sauce]

The card:
http://www.wizards.com/mtg/images/tcg/products/riseoftheeldrazi/mmbe7rmg3r_EN.jpg

It seems to me that any deck packing a fair ammount of discard could want to use this one. I realise it's downside of not taking Force of Will and Natural Order, but what other cards heavily played at the moment can't it take?

As far as I've thought, it could be thoughtseize 5-8 for those who don't want to play duress because it does not nail creatures.

Since Legacy is becomming faster, is this a card to be played?

Card seems almost strictly better than Thoughtseize for a deck like Ad Nauseam.
And only an Uncommon.

GG WoTC

[lolosoon]

Inquisition doesn't take care of FoW, and that hurts the card a lot.

The first deck that would hypothetically gain benefits of the release of Inquisition of Kozilek should be TeamAmerica.

ThoughtSeize+SnuffOut are too much pain to cope with Zoo for example. I wonder if that new 1cc discard spell can help TA making a comeback...

[troopatroop]

Card seems almost strictly better than Thoughtseize for a deck like Ad Nauseam.

Not really. You can't nab FOW, which is public enemy #1 to Storm. Duress is still king.

[lordofthepit]

It will definitely see play, but not being able to hit Force of Will (probably the card most often "Duressed" away) is a huge downside that can't be overstated. That being said, it does hit most of the cards played in Legacy.

[anonymos]

Force of Will
Natural Order
Ad Nauseum
Ill-Gotten Gains
Goblin Charbelcher
Empty the Warrens
Replenish
Sigil of the Empty Throne
Dragon Stompy guys
Smokestack

Trying to list everything I can think of and started stretching fairly quickly.

I think it works from a budget concern if you have one with thoughtsieze. Yes, duress hits all of the important ones from that list as well, but duress can't knock out critters IF those are more important at the time. That does make this more versatile at the very least. With just about the entire format costing 3 mana or less, this should be pretty solid. Maybe not the best, but pretty solid.

[SpeedOfDark]

Great card, love it.

Apart from the obvious budget considerations of players who have yet to purchase a playset of thoughtseize, I think this card is definitely seeing some play. It is in no way strictly superior to duress or thoughtseize, but I think it will surpass one or both for certain archetypes and/or metagames.

[lolosoon]

Still, if Inquisition ain't enough, SpellPierce can easily dispatch those spells (barring Storm or Critters spells obv.) :

Force of Will
Natural Order
Ad Nauseum
Ill-Gotten Gains
Goblin Charbelcher
Empty the Warrens
Tendrils
Replenish
Sigil of the Empty Throne
Dragon Stompy guys
Smokestack

The card is well designed, unco, and will not be a Standard staple du to the higher CC of that format. Good news fot Legacy Indeed !

Wonder if we can find them in Spanish (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5McSEU48Y8)...

[sauce]

Mel Brooks!

[rufus]

Mel Brooks!

I prefer the English version:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tym0MObFpTI&feature=fvw

We could also call it 'tarmoseize'. Does seem mostly like a power creep card

[Chubu!]

I really want to like this card, but...

Not hitting Force of Will is pretty not-so-good, IMHO. Force is a card that dodges Inquisition, because of its CC of 5, AND can come down early and disrupt my tempo, cost me a potentially-vital play of some sort, etc... AND is played in many, many Legacy archetypes. Already I imagine playing Inquisition turn 1, nabbing a 'goyf, and still not feeling good about the game state, because I know that the other guy is sitting on Force + a card to remove to Force. I also think of situations where I blind-cast Cabal Therapy. If they're playing blue, I almost always name Force. Force is just "that good."

Also, there's the storm combo m/u. On the one hand, I often prefer to hit their accelerators, tutors, Burning Wish, etc... over Ad Nauseum, IGG, Tendrils, etc... However, it still does factor in that I don't have the option of making that choice.

Nevertheless, I'm interested to see what happens with this card. So much of the Legacy meta is >4cc that I can't help but raise an eyebrow. In the meantime, I'm sticking with Duress, Thoughtseize, and (especially) Therapy as my favorite 1cc discard spells.

[caiomarcos]

Very strong card!

But I don't like how it was made to counter Tarmogoyf but gets everything else while doing it, just like Relic.

[ktkenshinx]

There are two reasons that Inquisition is powerful. One regards strategy-related reasons. The other regards extra-game reasons.

1. No Life Loss
This is an extremely relevant consideration against aggro decks. A few months back, I played a lot of Dream Halls using 4 Thoughtseize. Particularly against Zoo, but also to a lesser extent Goblins, Dredge, and Fish, the 2 life from TS would often come back to haunt me. When coupled with fetchland, Vault (Lim Dul's), and FoW damage, this could amount to a whopping 5 life loss over a game's course. Sure, you can quibble that this is not necessary, and I did not need to FoW this spell here, or use LDV on that turn there. But in the end, players should agree that a free Shock for your opponent can be nasty when you hit turn 4. Decks that care about the fast aggro matchup, and find themselves in a race against it, will definitely benefit from Inquisition. While ANT is not necessarily one such deck, Dream Halls is, as perhaps Team America and various BW Homebrews.

1B. Hits almost everything
This is a unique expansion on the often used reason that Legacy, as a format, mostly costs 3 or less mana. While we can come up with a list of cards that cost more than 3 mana (Ringleader, Stax, FoW, Ad Nauseum, Halls, etc.), I ask you, in how many of those situations would you choose a higher CMC card over a lower one? Inquisition will wipe out the Vial/Lackey/Piledriver instead of the Ringleader. Trinisphere, Chalice, Magus of the Moon? Stax is out of range, but not these 3. The only card that Inquisition does not hit that you would likely want to hit is FoW (and perhaps Ad Nauseum). In the vast majority of situations, you will happily take a CMC less than or equal to 3 card over a 4+ alternative. It is rare that you would wish for a Thoughtseize instead.

2. Budgetary Constraints of Thoughtseize
A lot of combo decks are made viable by Thoughtseize. The ability to take out reactive threats with Duress (FoW, Daze, Duress, Therapy, Chalice, Crypt, etc) is necessarily complemented by the ability to take out proactive threats (Goyf, Piledriver, Pridemage, Merfolk Lords, Putrid Imp/Tireless Tribe, etc.) Inquisition makes combo decks, and midrange aggro/control decks running black, way more accessible to your average Legacy player. This increases the format's popularity; when your Dream Halls/Reanimator deck suddenly costs almost 80 dollars less, there will be a metagame impact. Is it a large one? Perhaps not, but the end result is to make Legacy more popular with other players. Inquisition is a card that does that.

Well done Wizards on the card.

-ktkenshinx-

[(nameless one)]

I like how this card is only uncommon.

Definitely better than Blackmail when it comes to budget discard (well, outside Duress).

I hope SCG does not take advantage of it by raising its price to $5 right before its release.

[Mystical_Jackass]

Love it, just EATS power creep losers, confidants.. even lackeys for ZERO. Going right into my B/U


I can see some matchups it being better than thoughtseize. Thoughtseize was a poor topdecker, it's too easy hold on a land and sucker them into wasting 2 life if you bluff it right.

[caiomarcos]

What heavy played creatures it does not take? Can't think of any right now...

EDIT: Yeah, Tombstalker might be the only one...

[Chubu!]

@ktkenshinx:

Great post. I enjoyed reading your comments, and you organized your thoughts very well. The following question came to mind as I was reading:


It is rare that you would wish for a Thoughtseize instead.

How about wishing for a Duress instead? Of the three cards, (Thoughtseize, Duress, and Inquisition) Thoughtseize has the potential to hit the greatest number of cards. It also comes with the drawback of life loss. The real debate, in my mind, is between Duress and Inquisition. Duress and Inquisition make a pretty tidy package, together, especially with Cabal Therapy playing cleanup. All three can also be had in multiples without breaking the bank. (I'm assuming Therapy hasn't jumped too high in price. Correct me if I'm wrong.) The question, then, is - Is it worth the deck space to run both Duress and Inquisition? If so, in what multiples? I consider Force to be a pretty big consideration, seeing as it is played in such a wide variety of archetypes.

I'm curious to hear what you think about this consideration. Do you think that Inquisition + Therapy could replace Duress + Therapy? Why or why not? Being able to hit all 1-3 CC cards, Inquisition does seem like it has more potential than Duress as a way to put decks off their tempo, especially when backed up by Cabal Therapy. On the other hand, potentially leaving them with a counterspell in hand (and a hard counter, at that,) could mean trouble a few turns down the road.

[Doomsday]

Wait who plays Cabal Therapy aside from those looking to abuse the flashback? IMO this competes with Duress and Thoughtseize and loses out to both of them handily.

[MattH]

Sometimes their hand will be FoW and only one blue card, which will be cheap, and this will still force through your <<insert something good here>>. I think it's very good. Certainly I would prefer this over Thoughtseize in almost any Confidant deck I can think of.

[Malchar]

Exactly. If the only legal target is FoW, then their FoW is useless anyway. The only realistic exception would be a hand with 2x FoW.

Perhaps the most interesting aspect of this card is that decks might start using all three of these discard spells. Could it be good? Maybe. The funny thing is that if black starts getting good (they're also getting the instant speed damnation), then the big threat will be Tombstalker, and of course Tombstalker dodges this card.

[alderon666]

On storm this could be decent figthing hate bears. Hits Counterbalance and every relevant hate bear and also gives you information about their hand.

I could definetly see myself using this card in my ANT somehow, just don't know where and how many to fit.

[BreathWeapon]

Doubt it'll see play, not hitting FoW is make or break and this card is headed straight for the trade binder (good for Extended tho')

[emidln]

Given how little I care about my life total (past having some) when playing storm, I can't ever see playing this card over Thoughtseize. I've never been so hard up to kill a hate bear that I wanted to pay B and only have the opportunity to kill it before they've committed mana to it. That's what Deathmark, Chain of Vapor, and Slaughter Pact are for....

[Tacosnape]

Yeah, I think Storm isn't the avenue for this card. Nor is combo in general. I think any other Black-based deck wants this, though.

It's worth noting that there's several things this can't hit, besides Force of Will. Ringleader and Siege-Gang Commander come to mind. Natural Order, as mentioned. Most Planeswalkers. Etc.

[from Cairo]

IMO this competes with Duress and Thoughtseize and loses out to both of them handily.

I agree with this. The card is more narrow than both Duress and Thoughtseize; not hitting FoW, AdN, NO, Elspeth, etc is a sizable drawback even in this low casting cost format as any of those spells can be game winning. I see this card as nothing but a budget option after, not competing with, Duress.

[Antonius]

Team america and suicide will want this for their Zoo matchups.

[MMogg]

While Spell Snare proves that a narrowly applicable card can be playable in Legacy, I don't think it applies here so much. Inquisition has to compete with cards that are of the same casting cost, whereas Spell Snare is relatively cheap compared with traditional "hard counters". Life, as a resource, is much easier to use/waste than mana, so in that case, I think Thoughtseize and Duress are still king(s), so to speak. If anything, Inquisition may find a home in a particular deck, even as a 5th-8th discard spell, but it will certainly not become a staple of black decks or an auto-include. [/internet talking head]

[xTrainx]

I see this as fodder for Team America and as a Thoughtsieze replacement in ANT - or those two slots might be removed for consistency cards, such as Ponder.

[emidln]

What are you people taking with Thoughtseize while playing ANT that isn't Force of Will? In several of your hardest matchups, the only reason for disruption game one is to take/negate Force of Will (Merfolk, UW Tempo, Canadian Thresh, Bant Aggro). You get more targets postboard, particularly Ethersworn Canonist, but Duress and Thoughtseize's primary job is to take hard counters while letting you know how to play out your hand vs mostly irrelevant soft counters. In the Tempo matchups, the bulk of the non-Force counters are going directly to stopping you from (1) setting up with cantrips/tutors and (2) keeping their hand zone hidden.

[Forbiddian]

What are you people taking with Thoughtseize while playing ANT that isn't Force of Will? In several of your hardest matchups, the only reason for disruption game one is to take/negate Force of Will (Merfolk, UW Tempo, Canadian Thresh, Bant Aggro). You get more targets postboard, particularly Ethersworn Canonist, but Duress and Thoughtseize's primary job is to take hard counters while letting you know how to play out your hand vs mostly irrelevant soft counters. In the Tempo matchups, the bulk of the non-Force counters are going directly to stopping you from (1) setting up with cantrips/tutors and (2) keeping their hand zone hidden.

Inquisition of Kozilek will not see much play. I'll stick my neck out and say that. Following is my evidence of such:

The discussion did branch off into two groups: One group (largely gone now) who think it's a replacement for Duress in Storm Combo, but it can't take the Force, and so it's automatically worse than Duress. It can nab hate-bears (of which there's only 1: Ethersworn Canonist), but it's not even worth giving up the ability to nab Force for that. Emedln summarized very well why IoK will suck in Storm Combo.


The other group is less crazy and thinks it'll see play in non-combo black decks. I think it will take players exactly one time of peeking a hand of Ritual, Ad Nauseam, Petal, Chrome Mox before they go, "Ok, I'm switching back to Thoughtseize."

Ad Nauseam
Ill-Gotten Gains
Tendrils of Agony
Force of Will
Natural Order
Dream Halls
Sower of Temptation* (creature)
Tombstalker*
Planeswalkers
Among Others of less significance unless I forgot something.

I think only against Zoo is it better than both Duress and Thoughtseize, and it's much much worse than Duress/Thoughtseize against every type of combo. I'm pretty much of the belief that it's a bad play to sac what's left of your combo matchup to save 2 life against Zoo.

[jrsthethird]

It's better than Duress against Goblins and Elves as well.

[ktkenshinx]

Inquisition is better than Thoughtseize against decks that deal damage. 2 lost life, in addition to 1 damage incurred by a FoW, and 1-2 damage incurred by Fetchlands, is almost a free Goyf attack against most decks. This is unacceptable in the aggro matchup for a variety of decks. Even combo builds cannot be guaranteed to get their combo off the ground in the first 3-4 turns, especially if not on the play, and especially in games 2 and 3. Inquisition can buy an extra turn that Thoughtseize throws away.

So, where is Inquisition relevant?

Zoo
The entire deck falls victim to Inquisition, as does the entire sideboard. 2 life is rough against Zoo, especially if you need to cast 2 discard spells in a game. There have been matches where Thoughtseize players do not cast their second TS, knowing that the 2 lost life will spell their death.

Merfolk
Only FoW evades Inquisition.

Goblins
Ringleader and Siege Gang (and Lightning Crafter) are not hit by Inquisition.

These are three highly relevant aggro archetypes, and Inquisition is a weapon tailored to do the job here.

-ktkenshinx-

[Khurtz]

The point of Duress was to either dismantle your opponents combo or plow the road against decks running FoW and if you included it in your deck there's a good chance that you needed it in those particular situations. Inquisition can't hit FoW and fails to hit pretty much any major combo piece you can think of except Grindstone/Painter's servant. Not to say that it's a bad card really, but it IN NO WAY is a substitute for Duress. They serve vastly different purposes. I see mentioned here that Inquisition is better against Zoo, Gobbos, Merfolk and other aggro deck to which my reply is duh. Duress was never intended to be used against those decks and to continuosly try to advertise this as a reason to run it over Duress shows how little you understand the point of Duress.

[Vacrix]

I think that this card falls into the same category as Spell Snare, but its significantly worse IMO. Relevant things it can take out of an opponents hand? Well it depends on the deck but there are plenty of relevant cards like Goyf and CB that it can take. Anyone who has actually piloted storm should know that its absolutely horrid when you could be playing Thoughtseize or Duress. I can see it finding its nitch actually, likely in Pox or something of that sort.

[Angelfire]

Duress misses Goyf (and other relevant threats) and Thoughtseize costs 2 life (very relevant against aggressive decks like Zoo, Burn, Sligh etc...) and more real life dollars. If I Duress/Thoughtseize my opponent, I rarely grab Force of Will. Often when they Force of Will one my spells it is just more card advantage for me. The best things to grab out of your opponent's hand with Duress/Thoughtseize/Inquisition are cards that fuck up your opponents tempo. For example, if they only have one two drop and you are on the draw, grab their two drop (cards you can't deal with normally or cards that answer your cards still have priority obviously).

I will be running Inquisition in my Black/Red Discard deck over Thoughtseize.

[dahcmai]

Sadly I have to say it's going to sit right next to my Funeral Charms. Funeral Charm is a card I love and even have 4 foils of, but it's just not good enough to make me want to kick Thoughtseize or Duress out of a deck ever and I'm not going to play more than 8 Discard unless the next one is Hymn.

[Sims]

As I said before, I'm going to start testing it over the 2 Duress' that were in my sideboard in Reanimator... I believe the ability to take the relevant hate cards (Macabre, Chalice, etc.) on turn 1 is worth not being able to hit FoW. That's what Thoughtseizes are for.

Testing will tell, but I believe in that deck Inquisition is a better compliment to Seize than duress is.

[Jon Stewart]

Inquisition is the better option for Black based Aggro decks.

Black Aggro (Gate, Eva Green etc), don't like casting a Shock on themselves to Thoughtseize away a Goyf or some other potential blocker. For them, it's not a big deal if a threat gets Forced, since they play tons of redundant threats and the FoW player is going to suffer card disadvantage. What they care about is opposing blockers that will shut down their creatures from attacking.

Also, I insist on playing 2 Reanimates in every black based aggro deck. Reanimate goes great with all the discard and removal black plays. And Inquisition goes great with Reanimate. Inquistion, opponents Goyf, Reanimate it to your side, lose 2 life, gain a ton of tempo.