[Deck] Elves Combo

[caesar]

Hello Elves Thread!

My girlfriend is trying to get into this wonderful world of magic the gathering and I am trying to be a good boyfriend and guide her in the right direction of being a better player. She is extremely smart and extremely competitive so I think I am going to buy her a basic Elves! deck to get her started...right now we have been drafting and playing the commander precons.

Without breaking the bank I have built this list as an entry to combo elves with the basis on genesis wave instead of glimpse of nature(because the 4 glimpses cost as much as the rest of the deck) and I wanted to post it here to see if I was missing any big "budget" views on the deck.

Any feedback is appreciated and I want to spend about $100.


12 Forests
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Wirewood Lodge

4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Genesis Wave
1 Staff of Domination

4 Elvish Visionary
4 Lanowar Elf
4 Heritage Druid
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Birchlore Ranger
4 Priest of Titania
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Quirion Ranger
1 Regal Force
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Ezuri, Renegade Leader


The basic premise of the deck seems simple but I wanted to post it to you guys before I bought the cards.

After she becomes competent with this list I can get her the glimpses.

Questions I have:

Is quirion ranger any good?

What about the joraga mana elf/elf lord?

What about the archdruid?

Finally, wirewood hivemaster seems decent in a genesis wave list. thoughts?

Thank you guys!

Ahh!! I have discovered Craterhoof Behemoth!

Hey lavafrogg,
I build a ElfWave Combodeck a while ago as i have no use for my genesiswave playset since Scars draft, maybe you want to take a look. It's been way off compared to your list but the combination off prismatic lens and genesis wave makes pretty consistent turn 3 kills, plus the list is superbudget. It's more modern-orientientated though and may be tweaked at some point with legacy elves staples.

Creature (28)
2x Acidic Slime
4x Arbor Elf
2x Craterhoof Behemoth
4x Elvish Archdruid
4x Elvish Pioneer
4x Eternal Witness
4x Llanowar Elves
4x Wood Elves

Sorcery (4)
4x Genesis Wave

Artifact (4)
4x Extraplanar Lens

Land (24)
24x Forest

Edit: -1 Behemoth +1Akromas Memorial is the way to go.

[HoneyT]

@(nameless one) and k2thej

Seriously, play blue. Play Intuitions, Vengevines and Fauna Shamans. The Miracles matchup improves dramatically. You're aggro/creature matchups don't really get any worse and Negates out of the board have been insane.

I would not play any version of mono green or GW in this particular meta. GU or GB are where it's at.

My latest black list for those interested:

Lands:
3 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Forest
2 Gaea's Cradle
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath

Creatures:
3 Birchlore Rangers
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Elvish Visionary
2 Ezuri, Renegade Leader
1 Fauna Shaman
2 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Heritage Druid
2 Llanowar Elves
4 Nettle Sentinel
2 Priest of Titania
2 Quirion Ranger
1 Regal Force
1 Viridian Shaman
4 Wirewood Symbiote

Spells:
1 Crop Rotation
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith

Sideboard:
3 Buried Alive
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Faerie Macabre
1 Mortarpod
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Vengevine

[Kich867]

@(nameless one) and k2thej

Seriously, play blue. Play Intuitions, Vengevines and Fauna Shamans. The Miracles matchup improves dramatically. You're aggro/creature matchups don't really get any worse and Negates out of the board have been insane.

I would not play any version of mono green or GW in this particular meta. GU or GB are where it's at.

My latest black list for those interested:

Lands:
3 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Forest
2 Gaea's Cradle
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath

Creatures:
3 Birchlore Rangers
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Elvish Visionary
2 Ezuri, Renegade Leader
1 Fauna Shaman
2 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Heritage Druid
2 Llanowar Elves
4 Nettle Sentinel
2 Priest of Titania
2 Quirion Ranger
1 Regal Force
1 Viridian Shaman
4 Wirewood Symbiote

Spells:
1 Crop Rotation
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith

Sideboard:
3 Buried Alive
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Faerie Macabre
1 Mortarpod
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Vengevine

Honestly, crop rotation seems like a dead card. In my list mana is almost never the limiting factor, it's cards: you're hindering your creature count for disruption in black, I'd rather have another one drop over the crop rotation to keep drawing cards.

Also, Ezuri seems really not so great--he doesn't win the turn he comes into play and the thing you really care about (Swords/Terminus) he doesn't really prevent. Craterhoof Behemoth on the other hand, I'm flabbergasted as to how anyone when this card was leaked tried to downplay how apeshit insanely strong this card is in elves. Keep your creatures without summoning sickness away from the other ones, generate 8-10 mana, find him somehow, and win the game. He's easier to cast than emrakul by days, you can GSZ him for god's sake. I mean, I'm sitting here gold fishing, last game I had no glimpse in hand, but through maximizing my creature output I was able to generate 10 mana to living wish for a behemoth, drop it, and with him + 2 elves swing for 8*3 + 1 + 1 + 5 = 31 trampling damage on turn 3. That's literally the lowest turn 3 damage I've been able to produce with him. Turn 4 or 5 usually escalates into the hundreds if I'm styling or 50-60 if I'm just playing to win.

Everyone should be playing Craterhoof Behemoth over or in addition to every other win condition. He wins the turn he comes into play every single time. If they terminus your board you're fucked regardless and Emrakul or Mirror Entity aren't going to fix that any more than Behemoth would have. Not only that, usually, you don't even need his attack to win.

Bringing in Craterhoof Behemoth is also great because you can finally drop Regal Force. It's a clunky card that people include as a tutor target these days because everyone always has. He's unnecessary. Craterhoof Behemoth costs 1 more and instead of drawing you cards just wins you the game. He is by far, by far the best win condition I've ever seen in this deck. I'm also not really a huge fan of the buried alive vengevine plan, it takes up a lot of your sideboard which could be used to fight against decks that will wreck you--6 slots is too many.

[HoneyT]

I'm perfectly willing to try a split of Ezuri and Craterhoof. I've won plenty of games the turn I play Ezuri. It doesn't take that much to overrun a few dudes a couple times to win the game. People only start with 20 life. I will definitely test Craterhoof though.

The six slots for Vengevine ARE for the decks that wreck us. Don't know if you noticed, but Miracles is pretty damn good against us. Vengevines make the matchup soooo much easier. That's the thing with Elf Combo, it's favored against most of the fair decks, Miracles being the exception. It loses to faster combo and graveyard based decks. The Therapies are great against combo and the Vengevines are insane against Miracles.

[Kich867]

I'm perfectly willing to try a split of Ezuri and Craterhoof. I've won plenty of games the turn I play Ezuri. It doesn't take that much to overrun a few dudes a couple times to win the game. People only start with 20 life. I will definitely test Craterhoof though.

The six slots for Vengevine ARE for the decks that wreck us. Don't know if you noticed, but Miracles is pretty damn good against us. Vengevines make the matchup soooo much easier. That's the thing with Elf Combo, it's favored against most of the fair decks, Miracles being the exception. It loses to faster combo and graveyard based decks. The Therapies are great against combo and the Vengevines are insane against Miracles.

Ezuri + 2 activations is still like 11-12 mana compared to 8-9 for less damage on a smaller body. Ezuri doesn't have haste.

Graveyard based decks aren't really a thing to deal with too badly with 3-4 deathrite shamans and a maindeck ooze. The vengevine plan does what against miracles? Just puts them on a real short clock? I guess I can get behind that. Do you essentially board out the glimpse combo for BAVV?

[k2thej]

I'm perfectly willing to try a split of Ezuri and Craterhoof. I've won plenty of games the turn I play Ezuri. It doesn't take that much to overrun a few dudes a couple times to win the game. People only start with 20 life. I will definitely test Craterhoof though.

The six slots for Vengevine ARE for the decks that wreck us. Don't know if you noticed, but Miracles is pretty damn good against us. Vengevines make the matchup soooo much easier. That's the thing with Elf Combo, it's favored against most of the fair decks, Miracles being the exception. It loses to faster combo and graveyard based decks. The Therapies are great against combo and the Vengevines are insane against Miracles.

Why do vengevines make the matchup easier? They get their strength from recursion but don't recur if swords or terminus-ed.

[Kich867]

Why do vengevines make the matchup easier? They get their strength from recursion but don't recur if swords or terminus-ed.

This was something that crossed my mind as well. My answer in my head was that a single unabated swing by the vengevines will put the opponent to about 6 life post-fetches. This puts them on essentially a 0 turn clock and are required to be answered or lose, which while it might always feel that way is usually not the case.

[HoneyT]

This was something that crossed my mind as well. My answer in my head was that a single unabated swing by the vengevines will put the opponent to about 6 life post-fetches. This puts them on essentially a 0 turn clock and are required to be answered or lose, which while it might always feel that way is usually not the case.

This. And for the fact that you can simply dump them in the yard and leave them there. Just kill them with elves or your combo. If they answer that, they still have to answer some angry vegetables. The Vengevines allow for so much play. It can be hard to know when to run them out and kill them or let them chill in the yard. If they're swordsing your Vengevines, they aren't swordsing your Symbiotes and other combo pieces. If they get Terminused, they're very easy to find and dump in the yard again. Whether it's Buried Alive, Intuition, Fauna Shaman or GSZ, it's very easy to find some hasty attackers and rebuild post sweeper.

[joemauer]

Dp

[joemauer]

I agree with HoneyT here. In the new Meta of u/w miracles, intuition+Vengevine seems like the best answer. Mainly because it won't get easily Counterbalance. Only problem is Cage and Surgical Extraction out of the board.

[Apollo]

So back to the old Vengivine/Intuition build, things do really come back around full circle. I've basically been running the (classic?) Chris Anderson/Caleb build that had a good run in SCG tounrys a few months back. I think trying to go BG for decay or some other SB tech is a losing proposition. Unless you completely change the gamplan of the deck (such as Vengivine build) you really aren't doing much for your EV (Terminus still a card) and your sacrificing the speed and consistency that GW has IMO. A few Elves players still creep into the top 16 even with all these miracle decks floating around. The most recent top 16 at Providence ran 3 Vengevines in the SB and 2 Living Wish MB. Perhaps a transformative SB into the Vengivine package is an option as well (depending on your meta).

As for Craterhoof at least in the GW version he usually is just a win-more. I've tested it and when hes castable I have another avenue to win anyways, I mean when this deck has 9 mana available for a GSZ its gg anyways. That said he's not bad and I'd certainly run him over Ezuri.

[TraxDaMax]

I'm still a fan of the GW version mainly because our meta is basicly combo.
There are a pretty big amount of Miracles, but I feel Pithing Needle turn 1 and a well planned Armaggedon should get you there.

edit: I am considering maindecking Qasali Pridemage though, instead of Viridian Shaman. It stops Counterbalance, Energy Field and Omniscience. Also thinking of going to 2 Cavern of Souls instead of 1

[ThePrevailer]

I have a question about the various win conditions for Elves!

With Birchlores Rangers, one should already have access to all 5 colors post-combo, so any wincon becomes possible even without splashing in the manabase.

I've seen as win conditions (that I can remember, there's probably more):

Grape Shot/Brainfreeze/Tendrils of Agony
Ezuri
Mirror Entity
Banefire/Maga, Traitor to Mortals
Emrakul [this is what I use]
Akroma's Memorial
Craterhoof Behemoth [debating this too]

Why would you choose one over another? Obv haste granting permanents can be removed before combat, so triggers are preferred. Some wincons can be easily countered (not Emmy or the storm spells), but I suppose if you had a counterspell, you aren't going to go off in the first place.

I ask because It seems unnecessary to have more than 1 slot devoted to a wincon, since if you've gone off, you get to draw your whole deck. (GSZ with 0 cards in library is tech) Ideally, you'd want something that wins 100% of the time, while also being playable if you happen to just draw it. I know what I think works best, what do you guys think?

[TraxDaMax]

I have a question about the various win conditions for Elves!

With Birchlores Rangers, one should already have access to all 5 colors post-combo, so any wincon becomes possible even without splashing in the manabase.

I've seen as win conditions (that I can remember, there's probably more):

Grape Shot/Brainfreeze/Tendrils of Agony
Ezuri
Mirror Entity
Banefire/Maga, Traitor to Mortals
Emrakul [this is what I use]
Akroma's Memorial
Craterhoof Behemoth [debating this too]

Why would you choose one over another? Obv haste granting permanents can be removed before combat, so triggers are preferred. Some wincons can be easily countered (not Emmy or the storm spells), but I suppose if you had a counterspell, you aren't going to go off in the first place.

I ask because It seems unnecessary to have more than 1 slot devoted to a wincon, since if you've gone off, you get to draw your whole deck. (GSZ with 0 cards in library is tech) Ideally, you'd want something that wins 100% of the time, while also being playable if you happen to just draw it. I know what I think works best, what do you guys think?

You forgot Mortarpod, which allows you to go infinite with Mirror Entity and kill same turn without needing creatures able to attack. This is mainly why I prefer Mirror Entity, but its also just an awesome topdeck at any moment in the game.

[HoneyT]

Generally speaking, Mirror Entity and Ezuri are the best. They are still very strong cards even when you're not comboing off, whereas the other cards are just a mulligan. I haven't tested Craterhoof yet, so I won't write him off. He's actually castable without comboing too.

[Kich867]

I have a question about the various win conditions for Elves!

With Birchlores Rangers, one should already have access to all 5 colors post-combo, so any wincon becomes possible even without splashing in the manabase.

I've seen as win conditions (that I can remember, there's probably more):

Grape Shot/Brainfreeze/Tendrils of Agony
Ezuri
Mirror Entity
Banefire/Maga, Traitor to Mortals
Emrakul [this is what I use]
Akroma's Memorial
Craterhoof Behemoth [debating this too]

Why would you choose one over another? Obv haste granting permanents can be removed before combat, so triggers are preferred. Some wincons can be easily countered (not Emmy or the storm spells), but I suppose if you had a counterspell, you aren't going to go off in the first place.

I ask because It seems unnecessary to have more than 1 slot devoted to a wincon, since if you've gone off, you get to draw your whole deck. (GSZ with 0 cards in library is tech) Ideally, you'd want something that wins 100% of the time, while also being playable if you happen to just draw it. I know what I think works best, what do you guys think?

- Birchlore Rangers isn't a great color filter. Elf-Storm is a unanimously bad deck. It requires virtually nothing going wrong in your combo (which is 100% possible) and finding all the right shit. You can't just tutor it and win.

- Ezuri feels strictly worse than Craterhoof Behemoth; he requires either a decent amount of mana and a lot of elves, or a ton of mana and a few elves.

- Mirror entity isn't bad. It feels cutesy and in order to go infinite requires quite a few things to land into place.

- Banefire / Maga whatever -- No. These cards are totally useless in your hand and are hard to cast without a birchlore ranger.

- Emrakul -- A lot of people do this, this is a no-no. There's no reason to run this card with the printing of Behemoth. What purpose is there when he can't be tutored and Craterhoof Behemoth: costs less, is tutorable, and applies a buff to all your creatures, so even if they DO kill him it doesn't matter. They need to have instant speed board wipe or they lose.

- Akroma's Memorial - Not tutorable, not guaranteed.

- Craterhoof Behemoth -- Every should just play this card somewhere. Every other win condition is crap compared to this card. It's tutorable, it's of a reasonable casting cost, it wins the game on the spot every time (seriously, I've never dropped it and not swung for at least 160% of their life), even if it dies you still win, it has haste to swing with your dudes, it's just insane.

Ezuri, for a similar effect, requires 4-5 more mana. Ezuri is castable early, but if you cast him early it's very likely they're going to just kill him. He's probably really sick against RUG--maybe I'll board him for that matchup, but against white deck's he's useless compared to Behemoth. My combo is about a turn slower on average than the hardcore elf combo lists (the inclusion of Cabal Therapy and fewer tutors for the added consistency), but even then my turn 3 combos (with or without glimpse) swing for lethal with Behemoth. It's easily hard castable with a mana lord out or a cradle, it's just insane.

I'd also like to speak to the idea that when comboing off you'll draw your entire deck. This is only true in very rare circumstances. The Elf Combo is actually entirely prone to fail occasionally. If you don't find Nettle Sentinels, for instance, or hit a land one too many times, you actually just run out of mana and dudes to play. Without Nettle Sentinels your combo suffers immensely--any non 1 mana elf hurts your next round of tapping by a lot, any land you hit instead of a creature can set you back and force you to burn measures that you wanted to hold out longer on (symbiotes / tutoring). I mean yeah there comes a point once the engine really starts rolling and you're gaining mana with three nettles down you can probably draw your entire deck, but these is immensely over-kill and a time-sink, which many elf decks fall prey to.

You don't have to beat your opponent by a lot, you just need to beat them. If you're combo'd sufficiently to kill them, stop and just kill them. If they're a deck with answers--sure, sculpt a perfect "just in case" hand and win the next turn but there's no need to go crazy with it. For one, killing them quickly saves time (Emrakul decks with no Fierce Empath tutor for instance, can often take forever to find him) on the round and relieves some stress from you. Playing elves and keeping track of everything is stressful and time consuming, faster kill cons reduce both stress and time.

[k2thej]

I disagree about behemoth. He can be countered and he has protection from nothing. The important thing is the countered portion. This is a big disadvantage when compared to emrakul. And honestly, if you can generate 8 mana, GSZ for Regal Force is going to win you the game anyway, you might as well make sure that when you combo you WILL win that turn, since the difference in ability to cast Emrakul and behemoth is negligible once you factor in GSZ for Regal Force.

Edit: That being said, Ezuri and Mirror Entity are still better than both...


- Birchlore Rangers isn't a great color filter. Elf-Storm is a unanimously bad deck. It requires virtually nothing going wrong in your combo (which is 100% possible) and finding all the right shit. You can't just tutor it and win.

- Ezuri feels strictly worse than Craterhoof Behemoth; he requires either a decent amount of mana and a lot of elves, or a ton of mana and a few elves.

- Mirror entity isn't bad. It feels cutesy and in order to go infinite requires quite a few things to land into place.

- Banefire / Maga whatever -- No. These cards are totally useless in your hand and are hard to cast without a birchlore ranger.

- Emrakul -- A lot of people do this, this is a no-no. There's no reason to run this card with the printing of Behemoth. What purpose is there when he can't be tutored and Craterhoof Behemoth: costs less, is tutorable, and applies a buff to all your creatures, so even if they DO kill him it doesn't matter. They need to have instant speed board wipe or they lose.

- Akroma's Memorial - Not tutorable, not guaranteed.

- Craterhoof Behemoth -- Every should just play this card somewhere. Every other win condition is crap compared to this card. It's tutorable, it's of a reasonable casting cost, it wins the game on the spot every time (seriously, I've never dropped it and not swung for at least 160% of their life), even if it dies you still win, it has haste to swing with your dudes, it's just insane.

Ezuri, for a similar effect, requires 4-5 more mana. Ezuri is castable early, but if you cast him early it's very likely they're going to just kill him. He's probably really sick against RUG--maybe I'll board him for that matchup, but against white deck's he's useless compared to Behemoth. My combo is about a turn slower on average than the hardcore elf combo lists (the inclusion of Cabal Therapy and fewer tutors for the added consistency), but even then my turn 3 combos (with or without glimpse) swing for lethal with Behemoth. It's easily hard castable with a mana lord out or a cradle, it's just insane.

I'd also like to speak to the idea that when comboing off you'll draw your entire deck. This is only true in very rare circumstances. The Elf Combo is actually entirely prone to fail occasionally. If you don't find Nettle Sentinels, for instance, or hit a land one too many times, you actually just run out of mana and dudes to play. Without Nettle Sentinels your combo suffers immensely--any non 1 mana elf hurts your next round of tapping by a lot, any land you hit instead of a creature can set you back and force you to burn measures that you wanted to hold out longer on (symbiotes / tutoring). I mean yeah there comes a point once the engine really starts rolling and you're gaining mana with three nettles down you can probably draw your entire deck, but these is immensely over-kill and a time-sink, which many elf decks fall prey to.

You don't have to beat your opponent by a lot, you just need to beat them. If you're combo'd sufficiently to kill them, stop and just kill them. If they're a deck with answers--sure, sculpt a perfect "just in case" hand and win the next turn but there's no need to go crazy with it. For one, killing them quickly saves time (Emrakul decks with no Fierce Empath tutor for instance, can often take forever to find him) on the round and relieves some stress from you. Playing elves and keeping track of everything is stressful and time consuming, faster kill cons reduce both stress and time.

[Kich867]

I disagree about behemoth. He can be countered and he has protection from nothing. The important thing is the countered portion. This is a big disadvantage when compared to emrakul. And honestly, if you can generate 8 mana, GSZ for Regal Force is going to win you the game anyway, you might as well make sure that when you combo you WILL win that turn, since the difference in ability to cast Emrakul and behemoth is negligible once you factor in GSZ for Regal Force.

Edit: That being said, Ezuri and Mirror Entity are still better than both...

It's unlikely that by the time you can generate that mana that they still have a counter-spell. The protection from nothing is pointless since it matters far more that he buffs the rest of the elves and that circumstance only occurs trying to hardcast him with no combo preceding him. They would counter regal force as well leaving you in the same position, so it's functionally identical, except regal force might not win you the game and behemoth will every single time.

[Chrandersen]

Craterhoof behemoth is poopstains. It takes a million mana to cast, and is a mulligan when you cant go off with it. If you green sun for it, then just get a regal force instead and you win anyways.

The reason Mirror Entity is the best win condition is because when you draw it you can cast it, and if they dont deal with it the next turn, they just die. There is a reason I play two of them. You only need one to win the game the turn you combo off. The second one is purely for value. He's just an awesome draw.

[Kich867]

Craterhoof behemoth is poopstains. It takes a million mana to cast, and is a mulligan when you cant go off with it. If you green sun for it, then just get a regal force instead and you win anyways.

The reason Mirror Entity is the best win condition is because when you draw it you can cast it, and if they dont deal with it the next turn, they just die. There is a reason I play two of them. You only need one to win the game the turn you combo off. The second one is purely for value. He's just an awesome draw.

Regal force is pointless to run in the face of Craterhoof Behemoth. You only ever need to cast Regal Force when you're behind and unless you can produce further mana after casting Regal Force (which isn't always possible, you don't need Regal Force when your combo is doing fine).

If you can produce 9 mana (sorry, read: Million mana) then you just win on turn 3. Even under less ideal condition. If you have an untapper and a mana lord out, they're dead on turn 3. If you're generating mana in the glimpse combo, separate your creatures without summoning sickness, generate 9 mana, then kill them. You don't even need to go that long, 2-3 creatures who can swing and 5-9 creatures total in play, and you win. I'm also running 2 living wish to get him from the sideboard if the situation calls for it.

I've completely dropped Regal Force from my list, because if I can search for Regal Force and draw cards, I could just search for Behemoth and kill them.

[danyul]

Eeeeehhhh. I dunno about ^that^. I don't even know about like the last page and a half of this thread. As soon as Chris Anderson, THE PATRON SAINT OF ELVES, stopped playing Elves, I went and picked up a different deck too. I love Elves. I even have the damn deck foiled out. I'm invested in that shiz. But right now the meta isn't kind. So I'm playing something else until things change. No shame in that. But you guys keep chugging along with Behemoths and Whatever. I'll be convinced when I see some Top 8s.

[Kich867]

Eeeeehhhh. I dunno about ^that^. I don't even know about like the last page and a half of this thread. As soon as Chris Anderson, THE PATRON SAINT OF ELVES, stopped playing Elves, I went and picked up a different deck too. I love Elves. I even have the damn deck foiled out. I'm invested in that shiz. But right now the meta isn't kind. So I'm playing something else until things change. No shame in that. But you guys keep chugging along with Behemoths and Whatever. I'll be convinced when I see some Top 8s.

This is an incredibly unproductive post that does nothing to further the discussion of Elves. It'd be excellent if we could prevent further posts like this that unfortunately require posts like mine to fill up space in an otherwise healthy discussion.

If you wanted to ask the question "Is the metagame unhealthy for elves right now?" then there's a discussion in that, and I need to wake up in 4 hours so I can't really get into it right now, but in short I would probably say that it's ok. Terminus and Sneak and Tell are pretty scary, but overall I think we're ok. I also believe Black/green versions to hold a higher power than other versions specifically for that reason--Cabal Therapy with aptly named targets can wipe out any relevant card in the opponent's hand to stop us from killing them. If you can protect a glimpse with a therapy, you'll probably win the game.

[Chrandersen]

OKAY here's the scoop.

you CAN NOT EVER EVER EVER EVER beat miracles.

that's fine if people aren't playing the deck for the most part, which was the situation about 6 months ago.

Unfortunately, miracles is one of the three most played decks in the format. As much as I love this deck, I can't rationalize playing a deck that can't beat a deck that i should expect to face roughly twice an scg open MINIMUM.

Cut your llanowar elves for wild growths, your symbiotes for seal of removals, and your glimpses for argothian enchantresses.

UG combo enchantress plays out very similarly to combo elves. If you love playing elves, you will love this deck too.

UG enchantress beats the SHIT outta miracles
UG enchantress beats the SHIT outta stoneblade

you have reasonable blue deck matchups other than those with the exception of UR delver.

your creature deck matchups are pretty good other than death and taxes.

combo is meh, but thats always the case with slow combo.


Hopefully abrupt decay will bully miracles into a tier two deck over the next few months, but in the meantime, take my advise and start upheavaling people.


And for the love of god dont cut regal force.

[danyul]

@Kich. Posted at the same time as Chranderson.

Ha. Unproductive. Okay. I actually was furthering the discussion. Just not in the direction you would have liked.

Stoneblade decks are starting to play Supreme Verdict. BUG decks, with Pernicious Deed and Damnation, are rising up again. Goblins, with tutorable maindeck Sharpshooters, are becoming more and more popular as a foil to Miracle Control. And, of course, Miracle Control is everywhere and we all know how terrible that matchup is. I dunno what your meta is like, but where I play, Elves is a terrible, terrible choice right now.

Cabal Therapy is a fine card. But I don't think it's good enough to save us from all that collateral damage. Brainstorm is a thing. As are topdecks. And saccing one of your dudes to get a flashback, because of an initial whiff or to hit another card, is not always the best thing to do. You know as well as I do that Elves needs every last dude it has to get the combo rolling. Sometimes missing just one creature in the first few turns can screw you over. And what happens if you Therapy, see nothing, start to combo and get stopped by SDTop activation into Terminus?

If you are really afraid of the hate then play Gaddock Teeg. At least he stops topdecks and is somewhat preventative, whereas Therapy requires the hate to be in their hand that very moment for you to rip it out. Sure, Teeg has his own weaknesses, but he requires your opponent to have the spot removal. Where Therapy requires you to make the correct call, have enough shit to go off after maybe saccing a dude, and also requires your opponent to have the hate in hand at that very second, or to not have a Brainstorm.

When Elves was having the most success, nobody was posting in here. And now that the meta is like poison for us, suddenly everybody wants to talk about it. I guess it wasn't really prudent for me to come and rain on everybody's parade so I'll stop poopooing your Behemoth talk after this post. But if you want to be *truly productive*, you might want to hop onto a different deck for a little while.

[HoneyT]

you CAN NOT EVER EVER EVER EVER beat miracles.





Stoneblade decks are starting to play Supreme Verdict. BUG decks, with Pernicious Deed and Damnation, are rising up again. Goblins, with tutorable maindeck Sharpshooters, are becoming more and more popular as a foil to Miracle Control. And, of course, Miracle Control is everywhere and we all know how terrible that matchup is. I dunno what your meta is like, but where I play, Elves is a terrible, terrible choice right now.

But if you want to be *truly productive*, you might want to hop onto a different deck for a little while.

*cough* Vengevine *cough*

For the record, I do agree with Chris on Regal Force. Don't cut that guy. Ever.

[Koby]

Gdamn this thread went to shit.

Time to start running Living Wish. No one plays Spell Snare anymore. It helps us to find Gaddock Teeg vs Miracles (eh...) but mostly it helps us find Cradle/win-con. In general being more versatile than strictly a combo piece or an accelerator alone.

Black splash gives us Buried Alive for Vengevine (heyy look how Terminus makes 2nd/3rd copies live again!). Intuition too.

EDIT: Some more thoughts, because it didn't feel like I made enough content.
Combo Elves lives and dies by its combo-ish nature. If you can't combo out, then your aggro plan better be solid enough to make it worthwhile to even pick up the deck. Against Miracles, both sides suck hard. With that consideration, it's better to run Emrakul for the combo plan (and the occasional backup - make 15 mana hardcast w/o combing off). Nevermind that Terminus wrecks the combo. Vengevine backup plan at least puts enough pressure immediately to make it worth the investment. It gets worse against Stoneforge versions, but that's the price we pay for playing a deck with 30 1/1s. Krosan Grip is at an all time high value for the deck, and I wouldn't play it without at least 3 copies n the sideboard.

[Kich867]

Got 24th place at the Jupiter lands event with my dark elves list. The only decks I didn't neat had god hands against me or were just unbeatable. Lost to mud, bant, and turbo eldrazi. Back to back mud godhands locked me out, glacial chasm, and force + meddling mage + jitte + ethersworn =/

[sherko7]

Got 24th place at the Jupiter lands event with my dark elves list. The only decks I didn't neat had god hands against me or were just unbeatable. Lost to mud, bant, and turbo eldrazi. Back to back mud godhands locked me out, glacial chasm, and force + meddling mage + jitte + ethersworn =/

Hi there!

Care to post your list? Also, having a bit of an issue with SB'ing. Who's the first to come out? Visionary?

[Kich867]

Hi there!

Care to post your list? Also, having a bit of an issue with SB'ing. Who's the first to come out? Visionary?

Hey! My list is posted on the page before this I believe, the main was the same, the sideboard was different a little bit..

Sideboarding for me is usually kind of arbitrary? I just thin numbers here and there. Against controlley decks, however, I opt to drop the combo for a much more grindy "blow up all your shit and play elves and beat you down" sort of thing. I only actually did this once and it worked out freakishly good, my opponent was deeply confused and had no idea this was coming, it ended up completely rocking him out of the game. This has inspired me to just build a legit old-style Rock deck but, I'm not sure yet. Abrupt Decay and Maelstrom Pulse are pretty good.. My rounds went to three games each time except for one (That MUD player legit had -god- hands: game 1: sol land > monolith > monolith > dynamo > Revoker on your deathrite shaman. I therapy and flashback to strip his hand, he rips karn off the top and exiles me land//game 2: turn one tomb > revoker on heritage, turn two tomb revoker on symbiote, turn 3: land into golem. I was actually one mana away from GSZ'ing for craterhoof and killing him right there, but the lodestone pushed me out of it, I died to an enormous board of robot dudes), so that's 20 rounds of magic and I only ever had a glimpse in my hand once. It was stunning. I drew more cards off just bouncing and replaying visionaries.

So I would never drop visionaries. They're huge, the interaction between them and symbiote is an interaction not to be fucked with. Sometimes you just need to draw 3 cards a turn to get there, and this lets you do it for mana pumping plus untapping stuff.

The lowest I ever swung tonight with a Craterhoof was 17, one point over lethal. I never played a single Glimpse of Nature (I literally never even attempted to cast it, the only time I saw one out of 7 rounds was against Turbo Eldrazi who had two (2) chalices on one...).

I had a bye, I beat BUG Control, BUG Control, and Manaless Dredge. BUG Control I fought through: 2x Golgari Charm, Pernicious Deed, Engineered Explosives, Jitte, and a whole lot of spot removal. The transformational sideboard was huge here. Turns out control decks have a hard time dealing with Garruk Relentless.

The deck felt good, I would have won more had I found glimpse fucking...ever...which makes me feel confident in the list. To put it bluntly, if I can go 4-3 with strictly the aggro plan and not even see glimpses, I can probably top 8 that same event.

Deathrite Shaman is backbreakingly good, maindeck Scavenging Ooze was so relevant it's stupid (a LOT of games were won off the back of a mana lord and this guy being like a 12/12..), Abrupt Decay is a badass sideboard card, Choke didn't perform, Craterhoof Behemoth is still obviously the best win condition (in 4 separate games I just ended up having enough mana to hardcast and kill them. At one point I was able to living wish for cradle to GSZ for him and blow them out. He's amazing.), the big contention here though, was Cabal Therapy. This card varied from useful to useless hard. It felt too swingy. It either wrecked them or I stared at it in my hand like "Be a creature.." I'm contemplating just moving it to the board and including more necessary dudes, like Artifact hate (which I was lacking) and maybe something else.. like.. Ulvenwald Tracker or something.

[TraxDaMax]

Took my Elves to a 48 man tournement on Sunday but went 3-3. Untill now my weakest performance with the deck, although I am still positive about it.

Round1: Worst match-up a.k.a UW Miracles.
Not much to be said. I play very safe keeping about 2-4 power on the table at most times and get him down to 5 game 1, and down to 6 game 2.
After siding in 8 cards, I believe Chris A. in saying Miracles being almost unwinnable. Your opponent would have to be really, really bad.

Round2: UR Delver with maindeck Volcanic Fallout.
So, I had never seen this before but as I announce it in the deckname you can imagine why I was facing a quick 0-2.

Round3: Merfolk.

Game 1 gets stolen by Mirror Entity and Cavern of Souls. Islandwalking Elves are cool.
Game 2 I loose to screw and just a good clock combined with dazes I am forced to run in else I die to beats.
Game 3 He goes turn 1 Pithing Needle on Mirror Entity, and FoW's my Green Sun's Zenith and turn after that my hardcast Regal Force leaving him cardless. When I topdeck my Umezawa's Jitte I go to town.

Round 4: Merfolk
Game 1 I combo off pretty late, after a wirewood boardstall.
Game 2 an uncounterable Mirror Entity turns my men into 5/5's. That was that.

Round 5 BUG Tempo

Game1 my opponent starts off with Creeping Tarpit. I immediately put him on some BUG list or lands, both not my favourite of match-ups.
His turn2 hymn gets two key pieces out of my hand, and because I don't see any threats of his other then Goyf, I play around Deeds. This was my mistake as he wasn't a control deck, just a tempo deck not showing much tempo. Eventually his removal and Tarpit get there while I fail to assemble an infinite combo.
Game2 come in the Deeds and his ridiculously lucky hymns knock the right cards iut of my hand, again :-)

Round6: Goblins
game 1 combo out turn 3, game 2 also :-)

[Mr. Froggy]

Let's say your opponent goes T1 Liliana, how do you guys beat the PW? If they land one soon enough, I usually scoop.

[Kich867]

Let's say your opponent goes T1 Liliana, how do you guys beat the PW? If they land one soon enough, I usually scoop.

I have never in my life seen a turn 1 liliana. However, turn 2, I kill her with abrupt decay or name her with cabal therapy.

In my mini-report I mentioned that I beat 2 BUG Control decks: liliana was a hurdle in both matches. However, piling on pressure makes their game a lot harder. Opt to just blow her up or therapy her on turn 1.

[lavafrogg]

Kich- For the miracle matchup do you find that you have a better game where you play around the sweepers or if you run headlong into the sweepers and hope he doesn't have them? I could see pithing needle on top and just try to combo before they can get a terminus off being a viable play.

[Kich867]

I am not totally sure, im trying to set up a long playtest session with the best UW player I know, so ill have a better idea later. I would say it probably depends; if they don't have it then holding back gives them time to find it, if they do have it they can blow you out. Cabal therapy is good here just to scout the hand before going deep. If they're sandbagging it you're kinda screwed anyway. Other than that, apply as much pressure as you can without overcommitting. I would look to peel removal and non force counterspells with therapies unless you're looking to go off.

[joemauer]

Let's say your opponent goes T1 Liliana, how do you guys beat the PW? If they land one soon enough, I usually scoop.

I usually discard Vengevine and follow that up with casting two elf dorks.
This causes my opponent to scoop.

[Mr. Froggy]

So I should play some Vengevines?

[joemauer]

So I should play some Vengevines?

HoneyT said he was having some success[against Miracles] with an intuition+Vengevine deck.
For this reason alone, I believe this is the direction elves should be taking in the current meta.

[TraxDaMax]

HoneyT said he was having some success[against Miracles] with an intuition+Vengevine deck.
For this reason alone, I believe this is the direction elves should be taking in the current meta.

Think this will be most viable aswell.

[igri_is_a_bk]

Somebody explain how 4/3 haste guys that get hosed by both Terminus and Swords (worse than a swarm of Elves) is improving our UW match up?

[Kich867]

Somebody explain how 4/3 haste guys that get hosed by both Terminus and Swords (worse than a swarm of Elves) is improving our UW match up?

Because it is doable turn 2, active on turn 3 threatening a 2 turn clock starting turn 3. If buried alive resolves they're pretty dead unless they rip terminus. Also terminus doesn't make multiple buried alives dead, as they will refund the vines and keep them coming. Their only out is to sword them all.

[joemauer]

Somebody explain how 4/3 haste guys that get hosed by both Terminus and Swords (worse than a swarm of Elves) is improving our UW match up?

I haven't tested Intuition against Miracles yet, so here is my best guess.

Intuition and Vengevine are both tough cards to counter via Counterbalance(opposed to the rest of our deck).

Also, if you get three Vengevines in play with Intuition then the Miracle player must have a Terminus on top of their library in order to survive.

A Swords to Plowshares or two won't stop three Vengevines. The key card here is Intuition not Vengevines. Bait out the Force of Will with a Glimpse of Nature and then follow up with Intuition for the win.

Like I said I haven't actually tested it. I have no idea how to win game two and three when Cage, RiP, and/or Surgical Extraction come in, but it seems like a better plan than praying your opponent will mull to three against us.

[igri_is_a_bk]

That's the whole point! They will have the Terminus! Have you guys not been listening to the problem? If your plan with Vengevine is that they won't have Terminus, then Elves are fine as is.

[joemauer]

That's the whole point! They will have the Terminus! Have you guys not been listening to the problem? If your plan with Vengevine is that they won't have Terminus, then Elves are fine as is.

Counterbalance+Terminus is the real problem. It puts elves between a rock and a hard place. Intuition into Vengevines circumnatigates one of those two problematic cards. It is by no means an auto win against Miracles, but it is a better plan than what elves currently has against that deck.

[TraxDaMax]

Counterbalance+Terminus is the real problem. It puts elves between a rock and a hard place. Intuition into Vengevines circumnatigates one of those two problematic cards. It is by no means an auto win against Miracles, but it is a better plan than what elves currently has against that deck.

Counterbalance isn't that scary anymore with 2 Cavern of Souls main, an a couple of Abrupt Decay side honestly.
Terminus is still the numero uno problemo in my opinion.

[Apollo]

Yes multiple Caverns but if you are trying to combo out you can only tap that cavern once and then your essentially back to where you started (staring at the counterbalance and remember your Glimpses are always going to be countered). Anyhow Terminus is the "numero uno problemo" and in my testing (playing miracles) I can virtually always resolve a devastating terminus. Vengevine is a good card, but dont forget about the Surgical and Cages which are absolutely crazy good against it.

[joemauer]

Maybe we need to revisit the old Sylvan Safekeeper+Gaddock Teeg tech to combat Terminus.

[igri_is_a_bk]

I definitely agree that Teeg is the best answer to Terminus. I think I mentioned it a couple pages ago, but everybody thought blue was right. Anyways, you have to use at least two of him main and I am hoping there is time to search up Safekeeper. Remember, Teeg shuts off your GSZs and Chords. The major dilemma is that if you get Teeg first, then Swords is live. If you get Safekeeper first, then Terminus is live. One way to settle it is simply by the numbers. They use one more Swords than Termius in game one (typically), and they have Snapcaster (typically), so the odds are higher that they'll follow up with StP. Then to keep GSZ and Chord live, and the due to the odds, I guess you get Safekeeper first ?

I'm gonna start with this list.

// Lands
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
3 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
3 [B] Savannah
2 [B] Bayou
2 [UNH] Forest
2 [US] Gaea's Cradle
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor

// Creatures
2 [RTR] Deathrite Shaman
2 [B] Llanowar Elves
2 [IA] Fyndhorn Elves
2 [VI] Quirion Ranger
4 [SC] Wirewood Symbiote
4 [ALA] Elvish Visionary
4 [EVE] Nettle Sentinel
4 [MOR] Heritage Druid
3 [ON] Birchlore Rangers
2 [LRW] Mirror Entity
2 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
1 [JU] Sylvan Safekeeper

// Spells
4 [CHK] Glimpse of Nature
4 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
2 [RAV] Chord of Calling
1 [UL] Crop Rotation

The black is also for Therapy and Decay in the board. I'll give this a try and ask one of the Miracle players for some games.

[Infinitium]

If you're tutoring two creatures you might as well go for Visionary/Wirewood and force them to blow their sweepers prematurely without diluting the MD. In my experience sweeper heavy decks are best met by forfeiting the OHKO plan and instead rely on Crossroads and having access to superior card advantage engines in order to force those last points of damage through. Kinda like Goblins does it, and Goblins is apparently very favored vs UWx.

[igri_is_a_bk]

If you're tutoring two creatures you might as well go for Visionary/Wirewood and force them to blow their sweepers prematurely without diluting the MD. In my experience sweeper heavy decks are best met by forfeiting the OHKO plan and instead rely on Crossroads and having access to superior card advantage engines in order to force those last points of damage through. Kinda like Goblins does it, and Goblins is apparently very favored vs UWx.

That's because Goblins plays creatures in-tribe that grant haste. They all play at least four, some more. They also get Demonic Tutor on a Goblin to find these. If we had Elves that did both of those, I'd be all over your plan. We don't, and Crossroads is a card-sink instead. In other words, it's not a creature. The alpha strike is only possible because of haste with feet. That is what is important for them to come back from Terminus. That, and the fact they play four Ringleader, which is much better than Messenger (which still could help) because of the haste.

Say UW plays Terminus, and follows it up with Entreat in the next turn or two. Goblins can rebuild a lethal attack in that time. We would have a much, much harder time doing so. Part of that is also because they play 22+ lands and Vial, where we use 17 lands, three of which get hit or neutered by Terminus, and mana Elves.

If the answer were already in the deck, this match up wouldn't be terrible. It's going to take some thinking outside of what you guys have already heard other people say.

[Infinitium]

Best to my knowledge I've been the only one pushing crossroads ever. If you're not going to test you'll have to take my word for it being good versus control though - 1cc and being inherently difficult to remove makes for something few control decks not running Deed or multiple EE's want to find in front of them. You're right in that making land drops is vital for the matchup though, which is another reason I'm sceptic towards Safekeeper. I used to run Sylvan Ranger as Visionary#5 for a while solely to make land drops, but eventually found it too slow and cut it to make room for Ooze. Could be worth trying out if you want to improve that particular MU though since its by no means bad on its own (might not work with your manabase though).

[Anselm]

I'm new to this deck, putting it together as my 3rd or 4th legacy deck just for the fun of it, and I haven't read the whole thread (yet), but has anyone thought about boarding dark confidants for the miracle matchup? They represent threats that immediately must be taken care of without you having to commit a huge part of your hand to the board. Also the black splash would probably include abrupt decays.

[Benjammn]

I'm honestly surprised at the amount of people severely tweaking their deck for the Miracle matchup. Sure, it seems pretty bad, but unless my meta was like 50% UW Miracles I wouldn't change one thing about my deck. I learned my lesson thoroughly at the last Legacy GP in Atlanta when I tweaked my deck so hard vs. Griselbrand and then got owned by RUG three times and never played against a single Griselbrand that day.

Lesson: Only tweak your deck when you absolutely know what you play against. Otherwise it is an exercise in futility.

[TraxDaMax]

I'm honestly surprised at the amount of people severely tweaking their deck for the Miracle matchup. Sure, it seems pretty bad, but unless my meta was like 50% UW Miracles I wouldn't change one thing about my deck. I learned my lesson thoroughly at the last Legacy GP in Atlanta when I tweaked my deck so hard vs. Griselbrand and then got owned by RUG three times and never played against a single Griselbrand that day.

Lesson: Only tweak your deck when you absolutely know what you play against. Otherwise it is an exercise in futility.



Totally right. Though including Cavern of Souls, and adding black for Deathrite Shaman makes it very likely to add some Abrupt Decays side. So my version doesn't dramaticly change from the original.
I am finding Humility less usefull these days though.

[Apollo]

As Chris Anderson stated, and he has been playing in the SCG opens lately, you are going to face miracle decks and if you want a chance to succeed in big tournaments you want a respectable match up against perhaps the most popular deck in the format (UW miracles was everywhere in the N.O. open this weekend). So yes were all trying to figure it out. Obviously if your meta is very light on this deck and you don't want to show up to big events then no worries. I dont think DR Shaman and some Decays in the SB is what does it (doesnt for me) so people are thinking outside the box.

[Sigar]

Krosan Grip is better than Decay versus UW Miracles, since it kills their Top as well as their Counterbalance (+ Moat and Humility if you ever face that).

[flrn]

As Chris Anderson stated, and he has been playing in the SCG opens lately, you are going to face miracle decks and if you want a chance to succeed in big tournaments you want a respectable match up against perhaps the most popular deck in the format (UW miracles was everywhere in the N.O. open this weekend). So yes were all trying to figure it out.

Given the fact, that the format is legacy, a dominating deck is about five to ten percent of the metagame of a large tournament? Why bother adapting our deck to UW Miracles, if we can simply win the other matchups? I don't get it. Honestly, even if you commit five to eight sideboard slots and make a few changes in the main to have a "better" matchup against UW Miracles, it still won't be good.

Edit: If you really want to go deep against UW Miracles, try Leyline of Lifeforce.

[igri_is_a_bk]

Edit: If you really want to go deep against UW Miracles, try Leyline of Lifeforce.

Seriously? Counterspells are not the problem! Those have been around longer than Elves. It is Terminus! How many times does this have to be said?


I'm honestly surprised at the amount of people severely tweaking their deck for the Miracle matchup. Sure, it seems pretty bad, but unless my meta was like 50% UW Miracles I wouldn't change one thing about my deck. I learned my lesson thoroughly at the last Legacy GP in Atlanta when I tweaked my deck so hard vs. Griselbrand and then got owned by RUG three times and never played against a single Griselbrand that day.

Lesson: Only tweak your deck when you absolutely know what you play against. Otherwise it is an exercise in futility.

I'm going to nitpick a little bit, but your statement makes no sense to me. Based on your suggestions, we should never tweak lists. We can never know what we'll face. We can have a pretty good idea, though. UW Miracles will be the number one or two deck at any large tournament you go to in the near future. If our worst match up is the most prominent deck at the tournament, then what does it take to warrant a change? Besides, the list I posted is not "severely tweaked". It is chrandersen's with -3 Priest, +2 Teeg, +1 Safekeeper, and 2 Deathrite replacing 2 Llanowar/Fyndhorn. The Priests are the flex spots in the deck, and Deathrite is a functional replacement for the mana dorks that also demands an StP, which is really good.

Edit: I also forgot the Regal Force, somehow. That is supposed to be in my list.


Krosan Grip is better than Decay versus UW Miracles, since it kills their Top as well as their Counterbalance (+ Moat and Humility if you ever face that).

And Krosan Grip is definitely great against Miracles. Gripping their Top is one of the biggest obstacles you can throw in their path. Grip is probably more important than Decay. That's probably true. I may have a case of "push the new shiny button". Black may not be necessary.

[joemauer]

The reason elves wants to have Miracles be winnable is because it is another hurdle for the deck. Combo like Dredge, Reanimator, and Storm decks were already very bad match ups for elves. Now we have another deck that sees a lot of play that is a bad match up. At a big tourney you are bound to play against said combo decks and Miracle a good third of your matches, combined. And if you lose a third of your matches what happens to you getting top eight?

So we know we can't make combo a favorable matchup. So in order to have elves be a competitive deck we are trying to make Miracles matchup favorable.

[Anselm]

So no thoughts about the Dark Confidant plan?

[Sigar]

And Krosan Grip is definitely great against Miracles. Gripping their Top is one of the biggest obstacles you can throw in their path. Grip is probably more important than Decay. That's probably true. I may have a case of "push the new shiny button". Black may not be necessary.

I was also kinda "hooked" when I saw Abrupt Decay, but I think Krosan Grip is the strongest card you can have in the SB against Miracles.

[TraxDaMax]

Krosan Grip is better than Decay versus UW Miracles, since it kills their Top as well as their Counterbalance (+ Moat and Humility if you ever face that).



Well, yes and no.
If they leave a Vendillion Clique on top, they will be able to counter your Krosan Grip. And if they don't see any black of ours, they should be doing that probably.

[Greenpoe]

Why don't you guys just splash white? SB in 4 Thorn and/or 4 Thalia? Control and combo are will have fits when their spells cost 1-3 more to cast.

[TraxDaMax]

Why don't you guys just splash white? SB in 4 Thorn and/or 4 Thalia? Control and combo are will have fits when their spells cost 1-3 more to cast.



It slows them down, that true. But it doesn't blow them out like Terminus blows us out.
I think most Elves! sideboard have Thorn of Amethyst in it.
Mine has 2Thorn, one Thalia. I saw a Thalia in my latest UW miracle game2. But it didn't
help much other then catching a 2 mana StP.

Edit: against combo it's really good though.

[Sigar]

Well, yes and no.
If they leave a Vendillion Clique on top, they will be able to counter your Krosan Grip. And if they don't see any black of ours, they should be doing that probably.

Unless your opponent is a real JEDI MASTER and can read you like an open book, there's always an opportunity to Krosan Grip their Counterbalance, often times in their upkeep, before they enter their draw step.

The big nod though, is being able to nuke their Top, making us safe against Terminus in our own turn = BIG deal!

[TraxDaMax]

Unless your opponent is a real JEDI MASTER and can read you like an open book, there's always an opportunity to Krosan Grip their Counterbalance, often times in their upkeep, before they enter their draw step.

The big nod though, is being able to nuke their Top, making us safe against Terminus in our own turn = BIG deal!


Yeah, but if they are just good players they might actually know what works againt their hardlock.

Still, pretty legit aswer.

I just had a recycled idea.What about winter orb vs them? Not sure if its worth the slots, but I'll test it when I get the chance.

[Sigar]

Our Goblins matchup is HORRIBLE! Game 1 is fine if they don't land Sharpshooter, but game 2 and 3 are close to impossible due to Pyrokinesis! :/

[Alexeezay]

I think Goblins is a very easy match up...I don't know if I ever lost actually

[andrebonotto]

Like Sigar, I have some trouble against Goblins, too.
Especially because around here Goblin players tend to keep a MD Sharpshooter, so G1 starts already with a big threat, even before the Pyrokinesis come in.

QUESTION:

Against Goblins, do you think it is a good idea to GSZ for Wirewood Symbiote and try to be more protective before doing something else?
Or do you always try to combo as soon as possible?


(I find myself constantly divided between these two options.)

[HoneyT]

Sharpshooter isn't that big of a problem. He doesn't come online till at least turn 4. The only way it happens earlier is if you let them hit you with a Lackey. That being said, win the game before then, or build a board prescence that doesn't lose to him.

Pyrokinesis is a pretty big game post-board I'll grant, but as of now, I'm still on the Intuition/Vengevine plan, which mitigates the power of that card by A LOT.

[Apollo]

Goblins is actually a match up I love to see. They have no way to counter or hand disrupt Glimpse. Sure Pyrokinesis can be a beating but Elves can recover from sweepers so unless Goblins has a really nutty hand its been fine. If your really seeing a lot of Gobbos with Sharpshooter in your meta you could always run a lord somewhere in your 75 for GSZ.

[andrebonotto]

I have thought about putting an Archdruid among my 75, but it felt a little of "wasting" of SB space. I don't know.
(Maybe I could fit a Joraga Warcaller in it's place, since it does not "disrupt" a tight comboing).

So I thought it was better to run a Pendelhaven in place of a Forest, to have the possibility to Crop Rotate into a Pendelhaven and this way having a surprise defense.

But then, when I had the Crop Rotation in hand, I did not want to "waste" it to fetch a Pendelhaven, but wanted to hold it to get a Gaea's Cradle to try to combo.
(Or else, should I ALWAYS keep my Crop Rotation in hand, when facing Wasteland.decs, so that I can deceive his wastelanding?)

Anyway, I am following the discussions around here and I want to give a try to the Intuition-Vengevine plan (since I have never played with it, so at least I want to experiment it).

But in order to do so I need first to assemble the lacking pieces - or try to borrow it...

[Chrandersen]

goblins is a bad matchup.

they immediately lose if you resolve an absolute law.

if goblins is present in the meta (it is) then you should play around 3 absolute laws.

[flrn]

goblins is a bad matchup.

they immediately lose if you resolve an absolute law.

if goblins is present in the meta (it is) then you should play around 3 absolute laws.

In one of my last two tournaments, I lost twice postboard against Goblins with Absolute Law on the battlefield, due to him having Krenko, Mob Boss creating a shitload of goblins. I sadly couldn't combo out in time.

[grizzlybears]

Hi buddies,
I am new to Lagacy and become a fan of Elves! at first sight.

Sure I have an Elves! deck and it looks like this:

// Lands 14
4 Fetches
2 Savannah
2 Canvern of Soul
5 Forest
1 Gaea's Cradle

// well, let talk about this guy later:)
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor

// Creatures
4 Llanowar Elves
1 Fyndhorn Elves

2 Quirion Ranger
2 Birchlore Rangers
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Heritage Druid
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Titania Priest

2 Mirror Entity
1 Ezuri, Renegade Leader
1 Regal Force
1 Eternal Witness
1 Viridian Shaman

// Spells
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Summor's Pact
1 Crop Rotation


I am still tweaking it now, and my concern is "do we really need 'Dryad Abor'? will a basic forrst be better? "
This concern comes from these facts:

1. The main purpose for 'Dryad Abor' is to enable us turn 1 'GSZ' --> 'Dryad Abor' , so we have 9 'llanowar elves' , and usually can open with '1 lander'.
2. We hate to see 'Dryad Abor' in our hand at any time.
3. yes, if we have 'Quirion Ranger' and fetch land in play, and 'Dryad abor' in our library, it can do something tricky.
but this trick doesnt benifit us a lot, it still hurts our mana base. If I also have symbiote in play, I wont choose this action.

Actually,if we open with 2 lands , we dont need 'Dryad Abor', that means we only want 'Dryad Abor' in this senario:
'we are open with one lander + we have GSZ in hand + we dont have llanowar elf/dryad abor in hand'.
And how about the possibility of the senario?

'one lander' --> combo(pick 1 from 14 lands) --> 14
'1 GSZ' --> combo(pick 1 from 4 GSZs) --> 4
'we dont have llanowar elf/dryad abor in hand' --> combo(pick 5 from other non-land/non-llanowr/non-GSZ/non-aryad cards = 60-13-5-4-1 ) --> C(37,5)
'our open hands possibliities' --> C(60,7)

So, P('1 land + 1 GSZ + we dont have llanowar elf/dryad abor in hand') = C(14,1)*C(4,1)*C(37,5)/C(60,7) = 0.063 ,
similarly, P('1 land + 2 GSZ + we dont have llanowar elf/dryad abor in hand') = C(14,1)*C(4,2)*C(37,4)/C(60,7) = 0.014 ,
and chance of '3or4 GSZ' is too samll, regard as 0:)

What a pity, we only have '0.077' chance to benefit from 'Dryad Abor'!
and the real sadness is: we have '0.117' chance to have it in our open hand ,
and even worse suppose we are on the play and now is turn 3 main phase, usaully we have drawed 5 cards (3 natural draw , 2 from 'visionary' + '' ),
now we have 20% chance to see 'Dryad Abor' in hand :(

If my calculation is correct, we suffer from 'Dryad Abor' more than we benefit from it,
So replace it with a 'Forest' or 'Birchlore Rangers' will be better?

May I have your opion?
Any comment is welcome, thank in advance :)

[Anselm]

Even if your calculations are correct (I haven't checked them), there's still the possibility that the gain of having access to the arbor outweighs the loss of drawing it. That is, you'd have to multiply the probabilities with a gain/loss factor. I suspect that might be the case.

[NihilObstat]

May I have your opion?
Any comment is welcome, thank in advance :)

Hey there! Welcome to Legacy and Welcome to Elves ;-)

I'm a long time legacy player, longer time elves player, got many tops with them, and almost all my comments here on the Source have been on this thread (haven't posted in over a year though).

There used to be a lot of discussion about Dryad Arbor, and I think that it is simply that type of decision that you have to make by yourself. The variety of targets you want to have for Zenith.

I'm personally completely against Dryad in Elves. I also play Maverick, where it is just such an amazing option always to have up the sleeve, but on this deck I find it completely unnecessary and annoying. Running between 4-6 "Llanowar" elves as is the general construction makes up for a nice chance of a first turn draw, and having the Birchlore/Nettle combo, which can also start with casting one of them first turn we are usually more than set with mana producers. The biggest problem with Dryad here is that we run such few lands, thus making it awful to draw a hand were she is our only one. Other than that I tested her for months, and I just felt so stupid too often wasting a GSZ on her.

Anyway, I really don't want to be too dense about this again. I just believe that you have to test and see what makes you feel more comfortable with your deck, knowing she is there, or knowing that she isn't. I personally think that we don't need a Dryad in our deck to teach our Elves how to use the magic of the forest to produce some mana. I think they are already born with the lesson learned ;-)

[Apollo]

Don't forget that Dryad Arbor can also be used for further combat tricks with crop rotation. This comes in handy in any number of situations but most often when Jitte is online to save me a turn to combo. I'm not completely in love with Arbor but there have been a number of times when its been useful and its only 1 slot in the deck so I keep mine.

[Chrandersen]

Dryad Arbor isnt a land its a spell. So your arbor 6 spell hands would be 7 spell hands, and just as unkeepable.

Having turn 1 llanowar is the best play the deck can make. You green sun for arbor ALOT. Its more than worth the slot.

[grizzlybears]

Even if your calculations are correct (I haven't checked them), there's still the possibility that the gain of having access to the arbor outweighs the loss of drawing it. That is, you'd have to multiply the probabilities with a gain/loss factor. I suspect that might be the case.

Yes you are right,
I also need to messure the 'gain/loss factor' which can only be figured out by tons of duels :)

[grizzlybears]

Hey there! Welcome to Legacy and Welcome to Elves ;-)

I'm a long time legacy player, longer time elves player, got many tops with them, and almost all my comments here on the Source have been on this thread (haven't posted in over a year though).

There used to be a lot of discussion about Dryad Arbor, and I think that it is simply that type of decision that you have to make by yourself. The variety of targets you want to have for Zenith.

I'm personally completely against Dryad in Elves. I also play Maverick, where it is just such an amazing option always to have up the sleeve, but on this deck I find it completely unnecessary and annoying. Running between 4-6 "Llanowar" elves as is the general construction makes up for a nice chance of a first turn draw, and having the Birchlore/Nettle combo, which can also start with casting one of them first turn we are usually more than set with mana producers. The biggest problem with Dryad here is that we run such few lands, thus making it awful to draw a hand were she is our only one. Other than that I tested her for months, and I just felt so stupid too often wasting a GSZ on her.

Anyway, I really don't want to be too dense about this again. I just believe that you have to test and see what makes you feel more comfortable with your deck, knowing she is there, or knowing that she isn't. I personally think that we don't need a Dryad in our deck to teach our Elves how to use the magic of the forest to produce some mana. I think they are already born with the lesson learned ;-)


Thank your reply , you let me know that at least I am not alone~

Wow , 142 pages of Elves! discuss , a priceless treasure to me , I need time to digest ^_^

[Sack_outlet]

´Sup guys! Ive been playing elves for quite a while now, thought I´d post my current list for some input (Let´s see if you can find the win condition. :P):

CREATURES (30)
3 Llanowar Elves
3 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Heritage Druid
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Wirewood Symbiote
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Priest of Titania
1 Regal Force
2 Birchlore Rangers
1 Yeva, Nature’s Herald
1 Quirion Ranger
1 Scavenging Ooze

SORCERIES (10)
4 Green Sun’s Zenith
2 Primal Command
4 Glimpse of Nature

INSTANTS (4)
4 Summoner’s Pact

LANDS (16)
10 Forest
4 Cavern of Souls
2 Gaea’s Cradle

The caverns are a concession to miracles, and they improve the matchup a ton. If your meta is full of goblins, maverick and D&T, you might want to go down to 2 or 3 though. If you play nothing but combo, optimal speed is found by cutting: -1 Yeva -1 Ooze and adding: +1 Quirion +1 Birchlore.

Arbor is not a debate. You play one, no contest. Hands in any elves combo, without a turn 1 mana-guy, have to be very good in order to be kept (Matchup-dependent obv.).

[oarsman]

100% agree with the previous poster. Dryad Arbor simply must be played in a competitive build. Ignore the times when you draw it as your only land and decide to mulligan. Sure that might be frustrating, but the same applies to Gaea's Cradle.

I am confident, and doubt many would disagree, that our win percentage is much higher in games where a t1 mana producer hits the board as opposed to games where it does not. Using the previous poster's list as an example, he has 3 Fyndhorn and 3 Llanowar. And of course he has a set of Green Sun's Zenith.

t1 mana guys with arbor in deck: 10
t1 mana guys with no arbor: 6

Why are we even talking about this?

[JanoschEausH]

´Sup guys! Ive been playing elves for quite a while now, thought I´d post my current list for some input (Let´s see if you can find the win condition. :P):

CREATURES (30)
3 Llanowar Elves
3 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Heritage Druid
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Wirewood Symbiote
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Priest of Titania
1 Regal Force
2 Birchlore Rangers
1 Yeva, Nature’s Herald
1 Quirion Ranger
1 Scavenging Ooze

SORCERIES (10)
4 Green Sun’s Zenith
2 Primal Command
4 Glimpse of Nature

INSTANTS (4)
4 Summoner’s Pact

LANDS (16)
10 Forest
4 Cavern of Souls
2 Gaea’s Cradle

The caverns are a concession to miracles, and they improve the matchup a ton. If your meta is full of goblins, maverick and D&T, you might want to go down to 2 or 3 though. If you play nothing but combo, optimal speed is found by cutting: -1 Yeva -1 Ooze and adding: +1 Quirion +1 Birchlore.

Arbor is not a debate. You play one, no contest. Hands in any elves combo, without a turn 1 mana-guy, have to be very good in order to be kept (Matchup-dependent obv.).

I can't find it... Are you planing to bounce all your opponents lands on top of their owners libraries? And then attack? I can't imagine that...

[Sack_outlet]

I can't find it... Are you planing to bounce all your opponents lands on top of their owners libraries? And then attack? I can't imagine that...

Exactly. You cycle primal commands, gaining life and bouncing with the first one, shuffling your graveyard and bouncing with the second, life and bounce with the third etc...
I find it to be the best wincon by about a mile, since the commands add a lot of consistency to the deck, and have applications outside of winning. For example, gaining 7 and searching a dude is usually enough to beat RUG.

[JanoschEausH]

I dun't know... I playtested your deck and was hardly able to accumulate enough mana to cycle before i was dead in most cases.

[Alexeezay]

Primal Command is just worse than Ezuri/Mirror Entity/Emrakul because the Command can't win you the game alone while Entity/Ezuri let you win very often just by attacking and pumping the team
Primal Command requires going off with Glimpse to win, the creatures can win by themselves

[uncletiggy]

Anyone care to go into detail which versions do best in certain meta's, when things like summoner's pact and living wish deserve main deck slots, as well as some general side board advice on how many slot's each archtype/deck should have devoted, I can post my list if it helps but i'm currently in G/W with living wish so my board has been pretty clogged.

[the_endbringer]

I'm playing Elves for a while - right now I'm running the mono green version, and I'm updating it to the GW version - but now I'm losing faith in the deck.
As many of you here said, there is the Miracle problem, and the metagame seems not to encourage to play Elves.

My question is this - Is it worth to continue to play with the deck in the present metagame, or the option for the Deck nowadays is simply not valid?

[LeoCop 90]

Hello everyone! I saw there were some discussions about the goblins matchup. I am a long time goblins player, but I like tribal decks and I want to start playing elves as soon as I can find the cards I need.
I'll give you some advices about the goblins matchup, hoping they can be useful.
Most goblins players run a sharpshooter main deck, and also a skirk prospector main deck. This means that the sharpshooter can land the battlefield on turn 2 if a lackey connects, or if a prospector was played on turn 1. Also, if a prospector and a sharpshooter are on the battlefield together, the sharpshooter can easily kill the elves lords or X/2 creatures.
A lot of goblins players are now splashing green for tin street hooligan main deck and krosan grip in the sideboard, so also absolute law could be answered by goblins. Someone who splashes black also play perish in sideboard. However, nowadays the most common splash is white for thalia and rest in peace.
Almost everyone has pyrokinesis in the sideboard.
But the biggest problem for elves players(unless you're running a mono-green list) is that goblins run wasteland and rishadan port.
All in all i think goblins vs elves is an even match, it really depends on the hands the players draw.

[bruizar]

What's the latest de facto list for combo elves? I'm trying to complete my deck but I need to know which cards I'm missing.

[andrebonotto]

What's the latest de facto list for combo elves? I'm trying to complete my deck but I need to know which cards I'm missing.

From what I have read, things seems to be now a little diversified, with players trying different approaches (specially to improve the Miracle MU, among other things):


- Black splash with: Deathrite Shaman, Cabal Therapy, Buried Alive + Vengevines;

- White splash with: Gaddock Teeg and Mirror Entity;

- Blue splash with: Intuition for Vengevines, and counter as backup;


But since my terrible and recurrent losses against Miracle, I quit playing Elves for a while (since I must still acquire the Dual-lands for the splashes), and I went to play with Goblins again.

(I did not "give up" on the deck. I'm just "breathing some fresh air" for a while. :smile: )

[bruizar]

What is so difficult about the miracles matchup? Isn't engineered explosives / ratched bomb / powder keg enough to deal with the deck? Even moment's peace could buy enough turns to combo out, or? What am I missing here.

[Darklingske]

What is so difficult about the miracles matchup? Isn't engineered explosives / ratched bomb / powder keg enough to deal with the deck? Even moment's peace could buy enough turns to combo out, or? What am I missing here.

What is so difficult? Euhm, let's see: CB-top to lock you out, E Tutor to drop moat to prevent you from attacking. RiP/Helm to combo you out, Terminus to put all your critters back in your library. Energy field on T2 to prevent all damage. Am I missing something? Oh yes, I forgot Plow for the first few creatures that actually hit the BF.
EE comes online T2, Bomb not sooner then T3 and Keg not sooner then T4. And that's only if they resolve and after sideboarding. So I guess you could say Miracles is our worst MU. But hey, I could be wrong...

[TraxDaMax]

What is so difficult? Euhm, let's see: CB-top to lock you out, E Tutor to drop moat to prevent you from attacking. RiP/Helm to combo you out, Terminus to put all your critters back in your library. Energy field on T2 to prevent all damage. Am I missing something? Oh yes, I forgot Plow for the first few creatures that actually hit the BF.
EE comes online T2, Bomb not sooner then T3 and Keg not sooner then T4. And that's only if they resolve and after sideboarding. So I guess you could say Miracles is our worst MU. But hey, I could be wrong...

Pretty much summed it all up.

Number one badguy is Terminus. Entreat the Angels is almost just as bad. And Counterbalance can slow us down, although in my version 2 Cavern of Souls and Abrupt Decay's were able to fight CB easily.
Moat shouldn't be a problem if you're playing the good version which in my opinion includes maindeck Mortarpod.

[andrebonotto]

Pretty much summed it all up.

Number one badguy is Terminus. Entreat the Angels is almost just as bad. And Counterbalance can slow us down, although in my version 2 Cavern of Souls and Abrupt Decay's were able to fight CB easily.
Moat shouldn't be a problem if you're playing the good version which in my opinion includes maindeck Mortarpod.


Would you mind sharing your list?

[TraxDaMax]

Would you mind sharing your list?

The last list I played to a 3-3 finish, which was basicly the worst finish I have ever had with Elves was this (well, atleast this is how I remember it. I'm at work now)

Creatures [34]
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Regal Force
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Viridian Shaman
2 Mirror Entity
1 Priest of Titania
1 Quirion Ranger
3 Birchlore Rangers
3 Fyndhorn Elves
1 Deathrite Shaman
3 Heritage Druid
3 Llanowar Elves
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Wirewood Symbiote

Artifact [1]
Mortarpod

Instants [2]
1 Crop Rotation

Sorceries [8]
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith

Lands [16]
1 Horizon Canopy
2 Cavern of Souls
2 Gaea's Cradle
2 Savannah
3 Forest
1 Bayou
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath


Sideboard:
3 Abrupt Decay (Don't be fooled, this doesn't really do that much, but it can open a hole end of turn by destroying Counterbalance before you to go off next turn. If they don't have Terminus on top and are still searching for it you have a chance. Other then that it destroys Jitte's against merfolk etc..)
1 Humility/ Oblivion Ring (not sure, but at the time Show and Tell wasn't showing up much and remember I was switching these 2 around)
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Meekstone
2 Armaggedon
1 Pithing Needle (later addition to fight Deeds and Sensei's)
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Absolute Law

Something like this was my list.

Match-ups were
UW Miracles 0-2 loss
UR Delver (with maindeck Volcanic Fallouts -.- ) loss 1-2
Merfolk 2-1 win
Merfolk 2-0 win
BUG tempo 0-2 loss (Very strange thing here was he was drawing really bad and had a very slow hand, but that made me assume he was playing a control list with Deeds, which had me not overextend to much and got double hymn'd and creature controled game 1, game 2 deeds came in ofcourse. But again his hymn were randomly awesome for him)
Goblins 2-0 win

[Apollo]

Caleb Durward who piloted this deck to a couple top 4 finishes a while back posted an article recently extolling the virtues of DR Shaman and posted a new Elves list (among other lists) to go along with it designed to combat the current meta. The basic idea is DR Shaman is main deck graveyard hate, allowing us to devote more sideboard cards to other matchups like miracles with Luminarch Ascension. He also mentioned the possibility of a black splash for Thoughtseize. Thought I'd post it for discussion.

Here is his list

Main Deck
2 Gaea's Cradle
1 Horizon Canopy
2 Savannah
1 Bayou
2 Forest
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Pendelhaven
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Mirror Entity
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Regal Force
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Deathrite Shaman
2 Quirion Ranger
1 Priest of Titania
3 Birchlore Rangers
3 Llanowar Elves
2 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Heritage Druid
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith
Sideboard
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Luminarch Ascension
2 Meekstone
2 Humility
3 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Mortarpod
1 Pithing Needle"

[kiblast]

A friend of mine who has been playing Combo Elves for a while, started trying a black splash as well. We brewed a different sideboard which features 3 Abrupt Decays as a general catch-all answer to a lot of things (but primarily Vs UWx Countertop or any other UWx control deck, as destroys CB- obviously, and kills Peacekeeper, who should be your second main concern playing Vs Uwx control... and this card solves both of the problems ) and 4 Cabal Therapies since if you know what to name they wreck control and combo matchups. Most important thing is that these 7 slots are reusable in almost any matchup.

[NihilObstat]

I am confident, and doubt many would disagree, that our win percentage is much higher in games where a t1 mana producer hits the board as opposed to games where it does not.

That sentence is true, applies and I agree with it, when the said T1 Mana producer is also itself and elf, if not it really isn't that great. If the "best" play we can do with the Dryad is starting with T1 Zenith to her, I think she's just not good enough to waste a spot in the deck, under my opinion.
I'd prefer not to have Dryad in the deck, keep the Zenith for something better, and cast another elf (Birchlore, Nettle, Heritage) which will also produce mana. There's plenty of other options to need to add a Dryad.

[.Ix]

I don't play Dryad Arbor either. Sure, it's a spell, and 6-spell hands with dryad arbor would be 7 spells. Unfortunately, hands with 1 arbor, 1 forest, and 5 spells happen. In that case, it would be dead in hand until turn 3. With two lands and 1 arbor, it's almost like you took a mulligan.

Consider this probability table (using a calculator excel file I found on the net):

Cards in Deck 60

# of copies of desired card 1

Probability of having desired card in opening hand 11.67%

Probability of having the desired after drawing on turn:
1 13.33%
2 15.00%
3 16.67%
4 18.33%
5 20.00%
6 21.67%
7 23.33%

18.3% by turn 4 and 20% by turn 5 is far too high for something we never want to see in hand, IMO. This deck takes cards from the library with fetchlands, and draws a lot of cards very quickly using Symbiote/Visionary, so we have higher odds of drawing the card than the table shows us. I'm not sure how much the deck gains from having it in the deck (the number of turn 1 acceleration can simply be increased to 8 or 9 to make up for it) but don't think it could be worth the tradeoff of having a dead card in hand by turns 4-5 once in every 5 games.

re: the black splash
While I don't think Cabal Therapy is all that good in our worst matchups (Miracle, Dredge, and Reanimator), Abrupt Decay gives us an out to Counterbalance. It's definitely something to consider now that the format has Counterbalance again. Ugh. Also, white lets us run Teeg (+Sylvan Safekeeper or Steely Resolve on human). It's not amazing, but Miracle folds to it if resolved early enough, or at all.

[Oiolosse]

I'm getting back into Elves and wanted to ask you guys if you've ever tried Eldrazi Monument? The last time I was tinkering around with Elves I threw this in and was loving it. Most of the games were goldfish'ed so idk how it would do in RL. I find that I can drop some elves and slow roll them with Monument. Flying, indestructible? Thank you!

Oh, I will have to post a list later I reckon. I play with 3 Concordant Crossroads so I don't have to wait a turn to swing.

[HoneyT]

If you're playing GSZ in this deck, you should be playing Dryad Arbor. Period. The times you draw it in the middle of the game are most of the time completely irrelevant. It sucks in the opener. Sure. That's it. It's not worth losing 4 more free mana dorks that leave creatures in your hand for Glimpsing.

Abrupt Decay is not the only answer to Counterbalance. If you resolve an early Pithing Needle on Top, you're still probably going to win.

@Oiolosse:

I've actually played an Eldrazi Monument before when Wrath of God and Perishes were running rampant. It was fine then. Now that Terminus is a thing, I don't think it's worth running as it gets blown up by it too. Also, if you insist on playing Concordant Crossroads (you shouldn't, it sucks), only play one. They do exactly nothing in multiples and you only want one when you're comboing off and going to finish the game. By that point you should have drawn into the one of.

[Koby]

I would also eat the slot and play Dryad Arbor. The times where it provides acceleration on Turn 1 far outweigh the times it hinders in the opening hand. When you really need it, and you don't include make it miserable.

I echo the sentiments with playing :g::b: Combo Elves. Therapy still provides disruption and supplements Thorns against combo matchups. Abrupt Decay is a nice upgrade for Krosan Grip (ok maybe it can't beat Humility, but we're still an infinite creature deck so not a total loss). Moat is answered with Emrakul - again, no loss.

Deathrite Shaman frees up the need to run graveyard hate en masse, so that's a bonus.

[.Ix]

The times where it provides acceleration on Turn 1 far outweigh the times it hinders in the opening hand.


If someone could calculate the odds these events, we would know if this is true or not. The probability of getting a hand with 1 out of 4 zenith without getting 1 out of 6-8 mana dorks or the dryad arbor can be computed. We could compare that with the probability of getting dryad arbor in the opening hand (which we know to be 11.6%). I tried to do that myself but I'm no expert, so I'm not sure of my results.

[benthetenor]

If someone could calculate the odds these events, we would know if this is true or not. The probability of getting a hand with 1 out of 4 zenith without getting 1 out of 6-8 mana dorks or the dryad arbor can be computed. We could compare that with the probability of getting dryad arbor in the opening hand (which we know to be 11.6%). I tried to do that myself but I'm no expert, so I'm not sure of my results.

It is better. 11.66% of the time you'll draw the Dryad Arbor in the opening hand, whereas if you're assuming 8 Llanowar Elves, here's the difference:


.8094 (hands with 8 Llanowar Elves and 4 GSZ) * .8833 (hands with no Dryad Arbor) + .6536 (hands with 8 Llanowar Elves) * .1166 (hands with Dryad Arbor) =

.7911 to have 1+ turn 1 accelerator with Dryad Arbor in deck

vs.

.6536 to have 1+ turn 1 accelerator without Dryad Arbor


These percentages take into account the hand where you have GSZ and Dryad Arbor at the same time. So you get an additional 13.75% chance of having at least one turn 1 accelerant by simply including a Dryad Arbor. Whether that's worth an 11.66% chance of having a bad card in your opening hand is up to you, but the difference is actually pretty small. It exists, but it's just over 2%. It certainly doesn't "far outweigh" the times that it's bad in the opening hand, but it is a statistical advantage and so is probably worth it, in terms of turn 1. Now, what this doesn't take into account is drawing an essentially dead Dryad Arbor in later turns of the game, but with Elves that's less of an issue than with some other decks. It does show though, if you don't have GSZ as your first accelerant, then the odds of drawing a dead Dryad Arbor by turn 2 are just about equal to the benefits of having Dryad Arbor to GSZ for, and on each turn after that you don't GSZ for the Dryad Arbor, it becomes a drag on the deck. If you can absorb the hit of just playing a Dryad Arbor and getting mana out of it the next turn, then I would guess you don't really care about that.

[.Ix]

It is better. 11.66% of the time you'll draw the Dryad Arbor in the opening hand, whereas if you're assuming 8 Llanowar Elves, here's the difference:


.8094 (hands with 8 Llanowar Elves and 4 GSZ) * .8833 (hands with no Dryad Arbor) + .6536 (hands with 8 Llanowar Elves) * .1166 (hands with Dryad Arbor) =

.7911 to have 1+ turn 1 accelerator with Dryad Arbor in deck

vs.

.6536 to have 1+ turn 1 accelerator without Dryad Arbor

GSZ for arbor turn 1 is no good when you have an Llanowar Elf in hand. It doesn't look like this formula takes that into account.

Edit: To make it more realistic, we also have to factor in the probability of having a forest in the opener (1 out of 15?) so that we can actually play the GSZ.
So it's going to be the probability of having GSZ + Forest WITHOUT having Llanowar Elves or Dryad Arbor.

[TraxDaMax]

Yesterday, the Belgian Legacy Cup took place and 2 Comboelves top 8'ed. Lists aren't online yet but I'm surely interested.
Will keep you up to date when I can. (one of the guys top 8'd last week in a smaller event too, 33 players)

[LurkingMatt]

Yesterday, the Belgian Legacy Cup took place and 2 Comboelves top 8'ed. Lists aren't online yet but I'm surely interested.
Will keep you up to date when I can. (one of the guys top 8'd last week in a smaller event too, 33 players)

Any chance that you can link a top 8 (decklists) or a non french/ not Flämisch - Report for added information?

PM would be preferred.

Regards,
Matt

[benthetenor]

GSZ for arbor turn 1 is no good when you have an Llanowar Elf in hand. It doesn't look like this formula takes that into account.

Edit: To make it more realistic, we also have to factor in the probability of having a forest in the opener (1 out of 15?) so that we can actually play the GSZ.
So it's going to be the probability of having GSZ + Forest WITHOUT having Llanowar Elves or Dryad Arbor.

That's hyper-specific. We could easily find those numbers, but I don't think that that's what everyone's asking. The question is, as I read it, is the probability boost given by including a Dryad Arbor worth the negative of actually drawing the Dryad Arbor, and that's what the statistical experiment that I set up is calculating. It assumes a normal hand, which will, on average, include at least one forest, usually two. You're just under 90% to have at least one Forest in your opener anyway, so that's not going to change the statistics all that dramatically. As for the hands where you have GSZ and a Llanowar Elf, Dryad Arbor is irrelevant unless it's in your opener, as you're going to have all of the mana that you need. If you think it's a case that's worth exploring, I invite you to run the statistics yourself, but as I said, that's such a specific situation and it's not really a question that's being asked.

[TraxDaMax]

Any chance that you can link a top 8 (decklists) or a non french/ not Flämisch - Report for added information?

PM would be preferred.

Regards,
Matt

Top 8 after swiss
1) esperblade
2) sneakshow
3) spiral tide
4) comboelves
5) RUG tempo
6) comboelves
7) omnishow
8) sneakshow

Spiral Tide knocked out elves(6th) in quarter finals, and RUG knocked out the other elves(4th) in quarter finals.

Sneakshow(2) won the event. Not going to put up any names here as I respect their privacy.

[flrn]

From what I've understood, decklists will soon be posted here: http://belgianlegacycup.wordpress.com/

[spatulaclan]

So I have been playing various versions of aggro, combo elves for awhile. I think it’s just the satisfaction of winning on a turn 2 or 3 that’s just got me with elves. I know it’s not the strongest deck in the field but I love it and will always have it build in some sort of version. I digress I had been playing NO-combo the better part of a year I love it but I’m ready for something new. My buddy and EW built this today. Thoughts and Ideas? Comments?
Main Deck
1 Elvish Archdruid
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Ezuri, Renegade Leader
1 Triumph of the Hordes
4 Birchlore Ranger
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun’s Zenith
4 Heritage Druids
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Priest of Titania
4 Wireword Symbiote
3 Qurion Ranger
13 Basic Forest
1 Pendelhaven
Sideboard
2 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Krosan Grip
3 Meekstone
4 Natural Order
1 Progenitus
2 Caller of the Claws

[.Ix]

That's hyper-specific. We could easily find those numbers, but I don't think that that's what everyone's asking. The question is, as I read it, is the probability boost given by including a Dryad Arbor worth the negative of actually drawing the Dryad Arbor, and that's what the statistical experiment that I set up is calculating. It assumes a normal hand, which will, on average, include at least one forest, usually two. You're just under 90% to have at least one Forest in your opener anyway, so that's not going to change the statistics all that dramatically. As for the hands where you have GSZ and a Llanowar Elf, Dryad Arbor is irrelevant unless it's in your opener, as you're going to have all of the mana that you need. If you think it's a case that's worth exploring, I invite you to run the statistics yourself, but as I said, that's such a specific situation and it's not really a question that's being asked.

It's important because the probability boost only occurs in that exact situation. If you have GSZ + 1 Elf, you'll always want to play an elf first, so the boost does not exist when an elf is in hand. This is statistically significant precisely because there is a very high chance of drawing an elf. We have to take the forest into account because the probability of drawing the Dryad Arbor also takes that into account (ie it will be terrible whether or not there is a forest).

Given that:
In a deck with 4 GSZ, 15 forest, 1 arbor, and 8 elves,

P(1 GSZ+no arbor / elves + 1 forest) = P(1 GSZ) * [1-P(elves/arbor)] * P(1 Forest)
= 0.3995 * (1-0.7002) * 0.8825
= 0.1057 or 10.57%

If this is correct, we can see that we have only a 10.57% chance to be able to use the Turn 1 GSZ for Arbor play. Risking 11.66% free time walks for 10.57% gain is not exactly what I want to be doing in any deck.

[benthetenor]

I'm definitely not disagreeing with you, and your numbers look about right. I think GSZ -> Dryad Arbor is a play that makes a lot of sense with the fewer 1-mana accelerants you run, so in decks like Maverick, it's a perfect card, but the more accelerants you run, the less of a benefit you're going to see from turning your Green Sun's Zeniths into Rampant Growths. This makes sense intuitively, since as your chance to draw a 1-mana accelerant in your opening hand approaches 100%, you're only going to see the negative side of having a Dryad Arbor in the deck. With 8 accelerants, you're already at a pretty impressive 65%. Either way you calculate it, a gain of either 13.75% or 10.57% are both too close to the 11.66% drag put on the deck to make a solid justification for it being an easy call.

[.Ix]

Exactly. It's a fairly large gamble, and it's nowhere close to an auto-include in this deck like some people are saying. Maverick gains a lot more than Elves does by running it, both in acceleration and tricks, so it makes a lot more sense to risk the 11.6% in Maverick.

[TraxDaMax]

Not to nitpick, but I think there are occassions where turn 1 GSZ into Arbor is better then playing an Elf.

Simplified:

Hand: GSZ, Heritage druid, Forest, Gaea's Cradle, Glimpse, Sentinel, llanowar.

Turn 1 forest into GSZ into Arbor (5 cards in hand)
Turn 2 draw(6 cards in hand), tap forest for glimpse(5 cards in hand), tap arbor for sentinel (draw, 5 cards in hand),play and tap Gaea's for 2 mana, playing heritage druid and llanowar, both netting a card leaving you with an untapped sentinel, llanowar and heritage druid and 4 cards in hand with an active glimpse.


Let's play out that hand the other way now.

Turn 1 Forest into Llanowar Elf (5 cards in hand)
Turn 2 draw(6 cards in hand) play Gaea's (5 cards in hand), tap forest for heritage druid(4 cards in hand), tap gaea's for 2 mana and play glimpse and sentinel (draw, 3 cards in hand)
This means we have a card less, though 1 is a GSZ which means something, but not much with only 3 mana available at the moment.

Lets assume now, that the second turn "natural" draw was a deathrite shaman and we played llanowar turn 1


Turn 1 Forest into Llanowar Elf (5 cards in hand)
Turn 2 draw (6 cards in hand), play Gaea's (5 cards in hand), tap forest and play glimpse (4 cards in hand), tap llanowar and play heritage (4cards in hand), tap gaea's and play DRS and sentinel (4 cards in hand)

So, as you can see the first example nets you 4 cards whatever the draw is, while going turn 1 elf can lose you a card if your natural draw isn't an elf. Yes, you use up a GSZ, but 1 GSZ is not worth 2 random cards when glimpse is active in my opinion. Especially with only 3 mana to spend.


Hopefully this example is a bit clear. People can play whatever they want, but I'm sold on dryad arbor. ;)

[.Ix]

Very nice. I had imagined Arbor wouldn't be so bad in situations where you have a Cradle in hand. The problem with that is that it's even less probable considering most lists only run 2 Cradles, so I didn't bother. If you like to be prepared for such situations and you don't mind drawing the Arbor in the opener every 5-6 games, then it's all up to you.

[CalebD]

The list that just top eighted the vegas open is very good. Haven't tried Gitaxian Probe, but it might be a nice addition.

Regarding the Dryad Arbor conversation, the card does add another turn one mana dork, but it has a lot of other utility in this deck. A fetch can find it in the mid/late game. Quirion Dryad can bounce it every turn to turn off a Batterskull/Jitte or simply Maze of Ith an attacker.

Overall, it's a low-risk, high-reward slot. I win at least a couple games every tournament specifically due to having Arbor in my deck, and have never found the drawback of occasionally drawing it to be too much of an issue.

[HoneyT]

The list that just top eighted the vegas open is very good. Haven't tried Gitaxian Probe, but it might be a nice addition.

The list looks fine but playing only three Silvergil Adepts is wrong. Also not playing enough lands. I've played 15 land elves before and it just isn't enough. 16 is probably the minimum. I don't think the couple of probes is enough to offset that.

[Godmode]

Top8 Decklists from the Belgian Legacy Cup (http://belgianlegacycup.wordpress.com/2012-season/2012-12-09-main-event/) (86 players) ->HERE (http://belgianlegacycup.wordpress.com/2012-season/2012-12-09-main-event/)<-

Both Elves players in the Top8 made it to the Quarterfinals with the exact same decklist (same 75).

4 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
2 Forest
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Pendelhaven
2 Gaea’s Cradle

2 Deathrite Shaman
2 Lllanowar Elves
2 Fyndhorn Elves
2 Birchlore Ranger
2 Quirion Ranger
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Heritage Druid
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Elvish Visionary
3 Priest of Titania
2 Mirror Entity
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Regal Force

4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun’s Zenith
2 Crop Rotation

SB
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Thoughtseize
1 Cabal Therapy
2 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Krosan Grip
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Elvish Champion
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

[Infinitium]

I don't particulary like the white splash but I have to admit the Entity/Sliver/Symbiote interaction -is- pretty slick.

[Benjammn]

I would also eat the slot and play Dryad Arbor. The times where it provides acceleration on Turn 1 far outweigh the times it hinders in the opening hand. When you really need it, and you don't include make it miserable.

I echo the sentiments with playing :g::b: Combo Elves. Therapy still provides disruption and supplements Thorns against combo matchups. Abrupt Decay is a nice upgrade for Krosan Grip (ok maybe it can't beat Humility, but we're still an infinite creature deck so not a total loss). Moat is answered with Emrakul - again, no loss.

Deathrite Shaman frees up the need to run graveyard hate en masse, so that's a bonus.

Good. It wasn't just me; ever since DR Shaman got printed I've been toying with splashing black for it and Therapy. I finally am getting around to testing a list, which you can find below:

4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Llanowar Elves
4 Heritage Druid
4 Nettle Sentinel
3 Wirewood Symbiote
2 Quirion Ranger
4 Elvish Visionary
1 Priest of Titania
3 Elvish Archdruid
1 Regal Force
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

1 Summoner's Pact
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy

1 Gaea's Cradle
7 Forest
2 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest

Sideboard
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Regal Force
4 Carpet of Flowers
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Viridian Shaman
3 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Umezawa's Jitte

As you see in the SB, I've also been testing Craterhoof Behemoth and it currently resides in the MD of my mono-green build. I was running a single Joraga Warcaller to dump mana into or to Summoner's Pact for, but the Hoofmeister does the same but can be GSZ'ed and demands an immediate answer unlike Warcaller.

[Ertai87]

Just built this deck. Copied my list from the one from SCG Vegas last weekend. I was toying around with it on Cockatrice and solitairing it by myself, and I realized that I would often flip my deck on the table and then have to wait a turn to win the game because I couldn't attack through their blockers or whatnot. I know previous lists of Elves from a while back played Concordant Crossroads; is there a particular reason that card fell out of favor?

[Darklingske]

Biggest question concerning your question is: Wich turn did you combo? Normally they shouldn't have more then 2 blockers and once you start comboing, you can generate infinite mana and thus infinite large attackers. Just make sure that the creatures that were on the BF in the start of your turn can untap and attack.
Crossroads is not necessary at all. It is clunky since it gives your opponent also immediate use out of his/her creatures.

[Koby]

Play Emrakul. You wont be disappointed.

Im playing Elves for the Legacy portion of the SCG Invitational. Even with the amount of Engineered Plague in the room, Abrupt Decay fixes that nicely. Ive noticed it really tricky to board into too many spells without diluting the power of the combo turn.

[Koby]

I don't particulary like the white splash but I have to admit the Entity/Sliver/Symbiote interaction -is- pretty slick.

As opposed to Symbiote and Viridian Shaman? I tried Mirror Entity after Rory's prrformance at SCG vegas in testing and it seemed harder to get working than required. Im going to file Entity as "User preference".

[Ertai87]

Biggest question concerning your question is: Wich turn did you combo? Normally they shouldn't have more then 2 blockers and once you start comboing, you can generate infinite mana and thus infinite large attackers. Just make sure that the creatures that were on the BF in the start of your turn can untap and attack.
Crossroads is not necessary at all. It is clunky since it gives your opponent also immediate use out of his/her creatures.

What I tend to find is that I start going off around turn 3 when playing solitaire or around turn 4-5 when my opponent has interaction. Bolting the turn 1 Elf really hurts, I've found. Particularly against RUG/BUG Delver, I've found that they can put down enough speed bumps and generate enough tempo so that I'm at a low life total with maybe 4-5 attackers and they have 3-4 blockers when I start comboing off, meaning I basically have to Mirror for 20 to kill them (and then I still have to have more attackers than they have blockers, which is not always doable). I've found that Mirroring for 20 basically requires going infinite, which the deck is not always able to do, while Mirroring for 8-10 is perfectly reasonable assuming I can't go infinite but tends to require Crossroads to close the game.

Now, clearly, Crossroads is very all-in, I definitely know that. I'd play it less as an advantage engine (because in terms of getting advantage from that effect this deck is probably the worst deck in the format) and more as an "oops, you're dead" play, similar to the way Dream Halls works. I'm also only running it as a 1-of to dig for mid-combo, so I don't expect too many awkward draws because of it.

[TraxDaMax]

Just built this deck. Copied my list from the one from SCG Vegas last weekend. I was toying around with it on Cockatrice and solitairing it by myself, and I realized that I would often flip my deck on the table and then have to wait a turn to win the game because I couldn't attack through their blockers or whatnot. I know previous lists of Elves from a while back played Concordant Crossroads; is there a particular reason that card fell out of favor?

Play Mortarpod. You'll never have this problem again. Just flip your deck, make inifinite mana, and sac the team to win.
I have pulled my butt out of impossible situations this way more then a dozen of times, where if I hadn't had it I'd lose. Emrakul would have worked too usually, but Emrakul does so little if you draw it before you can combo, while Mortarpod is a control's nightmare and also cleans up bad guys like lavamancer and sharpshooter.

[Ertai87]

Play Mortarpod. You'll never have this problem again. Just flip your deck, make inifinite mana, and sac the team to win.
I have pulled my butt out of impossible situations this way more then a dozen of times, where if I hadn't had it I'd lose. Emrakul would have worked too usually, but Emrakul does so little if you draw it before you can combo, while Mortarpod is a control's nightmare and also cleans up bad guys like lavamancer and sharpshooter.

That seems reasonable, actually. Has anyone else tried this before?

[syfilisx]

Caleb Dunward played one maindeck while ago, you can read his article about that build on Channelfireball, it talks about Shardless Agent a bit first, but just scroll down for the elves.

http://www.channelfireball.com/home/legacy-weapon-a-spy-with-an-absence-of-shards/

[TraxDaMax]

Caleb Dunward played one maindeck while ago, you can read his article about that build on Channelfireball, it talks about Shardless Agent a bit first, but just scroll down for the elves.

http://www.channelfireball.com/home/legacy-weapon-a-spy-with-an-absence-of-shards/

Yep, it wasn't my idea. I borrowed it from Caleb too.

[Koby]

Quick n dirty SCG Invitational Report for the Legacy Portion!

Reference list:

4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Llanowar Elf
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Heritage Druid
2 Birchlore Rangers
2 Quirion Ranger
4 Elvish Visionary
1 Priest of Titania
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Elvish Archdruid

2 Regal Forge
4 Wirewood Symbiote
1 Emrakul
1 Gaddock Teeg

4 Glimpse of Nature
4 GSZ

3 Gaea's Cradle
1 Dryad Arbor
7 Fetch
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
4 Forest

SB:
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Thalia
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Scavenging Ooze

Round 5 - Hive Mind (2-0) - making 10 mana and 3 of any color can help. Won with beatdown however.
Round 6 - Merfolk (2-0) - No FoW on Glimpse, so that was quick.
Round 7 - Shardless BUG (GerryT) (1-2) - Combo G1, grind out G2 and lost, grind out G3 and lost to Diabolic Machine (A.Visions x3 each a turn apart, missed on a short Glimpse chain into land land runner)
Round 8 - Jund (2-1) - Combo, grind, grind when opponent flooded and beatdown with Regal Forces.
Round 13 - BUG w/ Bob (1-2) - Grind and lost to Deathrite Shaman superiority. Combo G2. Grind and lost to Deathrite Shaman superiority.
Round 14 - RIP Miracles (2-1) - Oddly not at all hard anymore thanks to Deathrite Shaman. He gets Moat out, and I cast Emrakul. Did I mention that I missed the Extra turn trigger facing lethal damage? Ya, I was that guy! (opponent scooped tho). G2 get Angel beatdown. G3 grind with beatdown and DRS.
Round 15 - Maverick (2-1) - DRS > Maverick, esp with all the untap effects we have.
Round 16 - NO BUG (2-1) - DRS can grind it out, and since they play a lot of spells, it makes it easy to clock them.

Finished 6-2 on the day for Legacy, which isn't a mythical "7-1" decklist, which is a shame. However, I felt pretty good about a lot of the matchups. Both the BUG decks I lost to were close enough to call. I missboarded vs GerryT putting in 3 Therapy and not bringing in 2 Ooze to counter DRS. The 2nd match was just the case of run bads - Glimpse cast Elf, draw Glimpse, cast it, play 2nd elf in hand, draw 2 lands. =[

Countering DRS decks with Ooze is really good, maybe one maindeck is worth it. Teeg is a nice way to hedge Game 1 vs Miracles, and the 2nd (or 3rd) in the board seals the deal against them.

Never brought in Thorns outside of Hive Mind for obvious reasons. There wasn't much storm in the Invitational.

Avoid boarding into more than 4 non-creature spells. It really dilutes the strength of Glimpse when you go for it anyway.

[andrebonotto]

Hey Koby, congratulations on your performance!

Since you are playing the full pack of DRS, and "only" 3x Llanowar Elves, I assume you chose DRS to be your "default" T1 mana dork.

Being this way, how did it play on the T1's throughout the tournament?
(e.g.: How often did you open a hand with DRS but no Fetch-land?)

Also, how do you evaluate the importance of the 2nd Regal Force?

[Koby]

Hey Koby, congratulations on your performance!

Since you are playing the full pack of DRS, and "only" 3x Llanowar Elves, I assume you chose DRS to be your "default" T1 mana dork.

Being this way, how did it play on the T1's throughout the tournament?
(e.g.: How often did you open a hand with DRS but no Fetch-land?)

Also, how do you evaluate the importance of the 2nd Regal Force?

Since I also ran Bayou, it's very easy to deceive your opponents in the first turn of the game. Fetch-Bayou-DRS = BUG? Junk? Nope, sorry, it's just Combo Elves!
I feel much safer playing DRS on turn 1 than Llanowar Elf, unless I have a combo hand for turn 2/3 since Llanowar Elf plays better with Quirion Ranger and Wirewood Symbiote (unconditional mana).

The 2 Regal Forces were boss. I cast them for value many times even when I couldn't combo, and having the 2nd one in case you get there for Combo also helps. I would board out 1 against decks that I needed to go faster and streamline (like Hive Mind, SNT, etc).

[Reagens]

@Koby

2 questions:

1) Did you ever test Mirror entity? Is it mutually exclusive with Emrakul (perhaps too similar a slot?)
2) Why not harmonic sliver? I think being able to hit enchantments as well as artifacts is quite relevant in the current metagame. Only minor issue I see is the color requirement.

[Darklingske]

About your first question: wichever you prefer is up to your personal playstyle. Emrakul is nice to have (and play) but is dead in your hands if you are not comboing. Entity is always handy to have in your hand, even if you are not comboing (since it is an Elf).
And the second question: Having a Savannah is not that straining on the manabase. And it is easy to meet the colors with 2 Birchlore Rangers.
Greets

[Infinitium]

2) Why not harmonic sliver? I think being able to hit enchantments as well as artifacts is quite relevant in the current metagame. Only minor issue I see is the color requirement.

The only Enchantments that are necessary to remove G1 are Counterbalance and Moat, and even then those can be played around with GSZ and/or Emrakul (albeit I still wouldn't run Spaghetti Monster MD). Basically Viridian Shaman does what sliver does, but with better p/t, color requirements and the elf creature type. And with Symbiote it does it over and over again versus artifact-based decks.

On a different note, does anyone have experience with Scattershot Archer as a sideboard card versus tempo decks? It Wirewood-chumps Tombstalker, trades with Insectile Aberration and murder Spirit Tokens nicely for the low, low price of one mana. Good synergy with untappers to boot.

[Koby]

I have no problem having Emrakul stuck in my hand to cast. I did beat Moat in Game 1 vs Miracles, so theres that.

I did test Mirror Entity and it was nit mutually exclusive with Emrakul. I would cut Regal Force for it, since you can go infinite with Visionary anyway.

Its definitely a preference call, and I prefer to have a gauranteed win with Emrakul than rely on just attacking with the elves I had in play from the start of the turn.

[Justin]

I like Emrakul in this deck as well. It's easy to draw and cast once you've comboed off. Not only does it give the deck a way to beat Moat, but the "Time Walk" ability gives you a chance to win without giving your opponent another turn. Although combo Elves is a tight list, it's not so tight that you can't fill one slot out of 60 with Emrakul.

[Darklingske]

Scattershot Archer It Wirewood-chumps Tombstalker, trades with Insectile Aberration and murder Spirit Tokens nicely for the low, low price of one mana. Good synergy with untappers to boot.

All I can say is: read the card. It doesn't have flying so chumpblocking Tombstalker is a no-go. It doesn't trade with Insectile also. You can murder the spirits yes. So if lingering souls is heavily played in your meta, try it out, but I'm not a fan of it. There are better cards to put in your SB.

[HoneyT]

If you're looking for something with that effect, try Lys Alana Bowmaster.

[Koby]

If you're looking for something with that effect, try Lys Alana Bowmaster.

LOL

I like Thornweald Archer myself - good vs Goyfs too.

[HoneyT]

I like Thornweald Archer myself - good vs Goyfs too.

Lol to be fair, the other 59 cards are also good against Goyf.

[.Ix]

So how do we find the OmniTell matchup? I haven't played Elves in a while and I have no idea how it goes. It looks like a horribly non interactive race on paper, and Omnitell looks a bit faster.

[Neil]

Long time since I have posted on this thread, but I attended a competitive 20 player tournament today in the Bay Area. I thought I would post a tournament report. Here is the decklist I was running:


60 Main Deck

36 creatures:

3 Birchlore Rangers
4 Elvish Visionary
4 fyndhorn elves
4 heritage druid
1 Joraga Warcaller
4 llanowar elves
4 Nettle Sentinel
3 Priest of Titania
4 Quirion Ranger
1 Regal Force
4 Wirewood Symbiote

4 Instant:

4 Summoner's pact

7 Sorcery:

4 Glimpse of Nature
3 Living wish

13 Forest

Sideboard:

1 Elvish Archdruid
1 Emrakul, the Aeons torn
1 Ezuri, renegade leader
1 Joraga Warcaller
1 Regal Force
4 Vexing Shusher
1 Viridian Shaman
4 Krosan Grip
1 Gaea's Cradle


Now for the tournament repot:

Round 1 vs BUG Control (2-1, 3 points)

Game 1

Turn 1 Forest into Fyndhorn opponent fetches into a Bayou and plays Deathrite Shaman
Turn 2 I Lving Wish for elvish Archdruid and play a llanowar elves opponent played a land into shardless agent which got him a Brainstorm.
Turn 3 I play Elvish Archdruid and drop most of my hand including a wirewood symbiote.

I went aggro on him and using Wirewood symbiote I would bounce back anything that would have died to his blockers. Turn 5 he casted Abrubt Decay on wirewood symbiote but by then it was to late for him.

Game 2

I kept a hand with 2 forests 1 quirion 2 glimpse of nature 1 heritage druid. 1 Llanowar elves

Turn 1 he plays deathrite shaman I played a llanowar elves. I drew a Nettle Sentinel.
Turn 2 he plays tarmogoyf. I play glimpse of nature quirion ranger, Heritage druid, and Nettle sentinel. I remember drawing a bunch of forests causing me to fizzle.
Turn 3 I don't remember what he does :eyebrow:. I try to go off again with my other glimpse but fizzle again. By the end I had a total of 8 forests out of 13!!!!! After that we duel it out but he wins.

Game 3 I keep a hand with 1 Forest, 1 Quirion Ranger, 1 Summoner's pact, 1 Glimpse of Nature, 1 Llanowar Elves, 1 Living Wish, and 1 Elvish Visionary. Great hand that can go off turn 2 all I am missing is a nettle sentinel but the Summoner's pact takes care of that.

Turn 1 I play Llanowar elves he plays a tropical island into a deathrite shaman.
Turn 2 he is tapped out so I was confidant I could go off successfully. I played the glimpse then quirion, heritage, Nettle. I won that game easy.



Round 2 vs BUG control (2-1 6 points)

Game 1

I don't remember much and my notes don't tell me anything.... All I remember is using living wish to get Joraga Warcaller and going aggro on him.

Game 2

my opening hand has no forests. draw 6 with no forests. Down to 5 with no forests!!!! :cry: I basically got to watch him beat me up with a goyf. On top of that he used Jace to fate-seal me on his turn 3.... Never drew a forest.

Game 3

No notes.... But I went Aggro on him again and won.



Round 3 vs Death and Taxes (2-0 9 points)

Game 1 was a breeze for me.

Turn 1 I play llanowar elves opponent plays Mother Of runes
Turn 2 I play fyndhorn elves. I had a glimpse of nature in my hand so I just wanted to make sure I have enough mana to go off successfully turn 3. It is important to make sure that you don't play to many elves before the combo. he plays mother of runes again.
Turn 3 I go off successfully

Game 2

I have an okay. hand that will be able to go off turn 3. He mulligans down to 6.

Turn 1 he plays a land and passes. I played a birchlore rangers. No llanowar ranger in my hand.
turn 2 he plays ethersworn canonist I really though I was going to lose. I play Heritage druid and pass I played no forest.
Turn 3 he attacks and Swords to plowshares my Birchlore rangers to mana screw me. Things were looking very bleak by then. Luckily I drew a forest and got to play my priest of titania.

For the next few turns I would play one elf and take what ever damage he dealt. Finally I drew into Joraga Warcaller, with the priest I had out I played the Joraga for 5 counters, that was game for him.



Round 4 vs not sure exactly but I believe it was Jund (1-2, 9 points)

Game 1

After a combo that fizzled we start to aggro it out. Unfortunately I couldn't deal enough damage to him and I lost to many elves to his goyf and scavenging ooze. I got him down to 4 life at one point but he started gaining life with the scavenging ooze

Game 2

I had to mulligan down to 6 due to a bad hand with no living wish or glimpse.

I remember going aggro on him. He played tabernacle but amazingly that mana screwed him and barely hurt me since I had plenty of forests in play. At one point I got a living wish and I got an Elvish Archdruid. Tabernacle hurt him a bunch now and barely annoyed me :smile:. I beat him going aggro on him after playing the Joraga Warcaller I drew.

Game 3

I had an okay hand that could go off turn 2. I felt that I should go off turn 2 instead of waiting because I feared the discard that he would have. Unfortunately I fizzled. In hind sight I should have gone off turn 3. We both agreed that I would have won if I had waited.



Round 5 (draw 10 points)

I drew this round because that way we both would go into the cut to top 8.

The top 8 players decided to split the prizes evenly instead of continuing the tournament.

Final notes:

Living wish is awesome. It allows me to keep hands that have a preist of titania or other good mana creation. I can go either Joraga or Elvish Archdruid and just go aggro on my opponent. This deck has a really good aggro fallback that can compete with the heavy BUG control in the meta. After winning the store credit I can splash black now :cool:

This would be the changes I am going to be making:

-4 Llanowar Elves / +4 deathrite shaman

Side board:

4 Abrupt Decay
4 Vexing Shusher
3 Cabal Therapy
1 Elvish Archdruid
1 Emrakul, the Aeons torn
1 Joraga Warcaller
1 Regal Force


Hope my report is actually useful. This is only my second tournament report. If you guys have any questions or suggestions I will be checking this thread often.

[rstevens]

I like the deck, but the question i have is why do you not run a cradle in the main board? Is it the fear of wasteland or do you only own 1?
I like the deck list and I ordered my own shaman for my combo deck. Im going to do the black splash that you had to see how it works. Generally my sb cards are circumstantial and i never see them in the match up/or when i do see see the match up i never see the cards. I feel like black adds more to the deck that just the mono green doesnt give.
I would like to try living wish out as well. There are a few cards that will stop elves (peace keeper being one) and with any creature wincon you cannot actually win.

[HoneyT]

There are a few cards that will stop elves peace keeper being one) and with any creature wincon you cannot actually win.

You mentioned playing black. Abrupt Decay kills Peacekeeper (and Counterbalance). Otherwise Mortarpod takes care of your problems.

[lord182]

I have no problem having Emrakul stuck in my hand to cast. I did beat Moat in Game 1 vs Miracles, so theres that.

I did test Mirror Entity and it was nit mutually exclusive with Emrakul. I would cut Regal Force for it, since you can go infinite with Visionary anyway.

Its definitely a preference call, and I prefer to have a gauranteed win with Emrakul than rely on just attacking with the elves I had in play from the start of the turn.

How can you do that?

[Koby]

How can you do that?

Hmm maybe you can't now that I think about it. Bouncing Regal Force should give you enough gas to keep on powering through.

[Neil]

I like the deck, but the question i have is why do you not run a cradle in the main board? Is it the fear of wasteland or do you only own 1?
I like the deck list and I ordered my own shaman for my combo deck. Im going to do the black splash that you had to see how it works. Generally my sb cards are circumstantial and i never see them in the match up/or when i do see see the match up i never see the cards. I feel like black adds more to the deck that just the mono green doesnt give.
I would like to try living wish out as well. There are a few cards that will stop elves (peace keeper being one) and with any creature wincon you cannot actually win.

Glad you like the decklist. I don't have cradle in main board for two reasons. first one is, I run only 13 lands so often I would get only one gaea's cradle and no forests. Honestly if I wouldn't know which creature to cut for it. Second, by the time I would draw into the cradle mid combo I wouldn't really need it. Nettle sentinel makes all the mana I would need. On top of that, often during the early stages of the combo I have to play all the lands I can. So, when I do draw into it sometimes I can't even play it. Using living wish to get it is always nice. I have found though that I personally never use it. Hence I am cutting it from my SB after the black splash. I felt exactly what you felt that mono green just doesn't have the answers I want. After some testing I feel inquisition of kozelik would be better than cabal therapy. Like one of the persons before me said abrupt decay will deals with almost all the hate.


Hmm maybe you can't now that I think about it. Bouncing Regal Force should give you enough gas to keep on powering through.

You can go infinite with an elvish visionary, 2 nettle sentinels, wirewood symbiote, mirror entity, and a forest. I still don't recommend using mirror entity though :smile:

[lavafrogg]

Has anyone tried Sylvan Messengers against blue based decks? BUG and Miracles should have a hard time stopping Messengers, Visionaries, glimpses and symbiotes reusing the creatures...

[lord182]

You can go infinite with an elvish visionary, 2 nettle sentinels, wirewood symbiote, mirror entity, and a forest. I still don't recommend using mirror entity though :smile:

We are talking about infinite draws not mana :tongue:... You may be confused Elvish Visionary with Heritage Druid also you need only 1 Sentinel:wink:

[Neil]

We are talking about infinite draws not mana :tongue:... You may be confused Elvish Visionary with Heritage Druid also you need only 1 Sentinel:wink:

Oh duh :facepalm:. Yeah I messed up the two cards.

I think Koby is right you can't go infinite draw with just Mirror entity and no glimpse.

[JanoschEausH]

This would be the changes I am going to be making:

-4 Llanowar Elves / +4 deathrite shaman

Side board:

4 Abrupt Decay
4 Vexing Shusher
3 Cabal Therapy
1 Elvish Archdruid
1 Emrakul, the Aeons torn
1 Joraga Warcaller
1 Regal Force


Hope my report is actually useful. This is only my second tournament report. If you guys have any questions or suggestions I will be checking this thread often.

How are you planning to change your manabase? If you play Abrupt Decays and discard, i assume that you need to play at least one Bayou + Fetchlands, right? Or does it work without Duals + Fetchlands? I'm testing a similiar Deck right now. My maindeck difference would be -1x Birchlore Ranger, -1x Fyndhorn Elves +2x Green Sun's Zenith, and 3x Elvish Archdruid instead of 3x Priest of Titania.

[Neil]

How are you planning to change your manabase? If you play Abrupt Decays and discard, i assume that you need to play at least one Bayou + Fetchlands, right? Or does it work without Duals + Fetchlands? I'm testing a similiar Deck right now. My maindeck difference would be -1x Birchlore Ranger, -1x Fyndhorn Elves +2x Green Sun's Zenith, and 3x Elvish Archdruid instead of 3x Priest of Titania.

Oh right, I am running 8 fetchlands, 3 forests, and 2 bayous. It seems to be working well. Our decks look quite similar. Not sure if you know about this card, but you might want to try out 1 Dryad Arbor since you run GSZ.

[civet five]

I just picked the deck up and was playing a bunch of goldfish games to get the feel for it. I have to say that I feel like a total n00b for not realizing how good Mirror Entity is with Symbiote. I just had the following game state that looked like total crap, but turned out to be a win:

In play to begin the turn is Savannah, Dryad Arbor, Cradle, Priest of Titania, Wirewood Symbiote, Birchlore Ranger, Heritage Druid; Mirror Entity is in hand. Tap Savannah and Cradle to play Entity, activate for 1 and now Dryad Arbor and Wirewood Symbiote are Elves. Priest makes 6, activate Symbiote returning itself to untap Priest, recast, activate Entity, cycle rinse repeat. Attack with Dryad Arbor, Priest, Ranger, Druid for 3.2 Billion.

This line of play has come up several times in goldfishing, and makes me think that Emrakul really isn't necessary at all.

[jjflipped]

Finally decided that I will just elf people in Denver (instead of playing some 4 color monstrosity)

Things of note:
-Emrakul still does nothing. not playing it.
-Deathrite Shaman isnt that good. Might play one to zenith for.
-Unsure on SB, but decent chance it will contain 4 buried alive 4 vengevine. No, this does not lose to deathrite shaman.
-Mortarpod is likely going to be maindeck.
-DEATHRITE SHAMAN ISNT THAT GOOD. QUIT CUTTING LLANOWARS FOR HIM. SERIOUSLY.
-On the verge of cutting the crop rotation, but the deck really wants a third cradle...
-Mirror entity does everything.
-If I play a DRS, its going in over a heritage druid.
-Energy storm is still hilarious.

[Koby]

Finally decided that I will just elf people in Denver (instead of playing some 4 color monstrosity)

Things of note:
-Emrakul still does nothing. not playing it.
-Deathrite Shaman isnt that good. Might play one to zenith for.
-Unsure on SB, but decent chance it will contain 4 buried alive 4 vengevine. No, this does not lose to deathrite shaman.
-Mortarpod is likely going to be maindeck.
-DEATHRITE SHAMAN ISNT THAT GOOD. QUIT CUTTING LLANOWARS FOR HIM. SERIOUSLY.
-On the verge of cutting the crop rotation, but the deck really wants a third cradle...
-Mirror entity does everything.
-If I play a DRS, its going in over a heritage druid.
-Energy storm is still hilarious.

Good luck with that.
Hint: I went 6-2 at the Invitational with G/b Combo Elves, with Emrakul, with 4 DRS, with zero Mirror Entity. I highly recommend my version, mostly for the SB options.

Buried Alive -> Vengevine isn't that impressive against Miracles; where we want it most.

[jjflipped]

I know you went 6-2. that because elves are good.

Elves! is a deck, like most, based around card and mana advantage. It is best to play the cards that do the most for the smallest amount of mana. In legacy the cheapest way to win with elves is mirror entity, also creating many more scenarios where winning is possible (the aggro plan, as well as symbiote loops). I've played elves in vintage as well, and cut one entity for the more efficient time walk. Emrakul is the most expensive win condition, that ONLY is a finisher.

On the topic of deathrite shaman, So far its added green mana. sometimes.

Also buried alive is awful vs miracles. Thats not why its there. Its there to efficiently beat discard and E.Plague.

-Jon

[Koby]

I know you went 6-2. that because elves are good.

Elves! is a deck, like most, based around card and mana advantage. It is best to play the cards that do the most for the smallest amount of mana. In legacy the cheapest way to win with elves is mirror entity, also creating many more scenarios where winning is possible (the aggro plan, as well as symbiote loops). I've played elves in vintage as well, and cut one entity for the more efficient time walk. Emrakul is the most expensive win condition, that ONLY is a finisher.

On the topic of deathrite shaman, So far its added green mana. sometimes.

Also buried alive is awful vs miracles. Thats not why its there. Its there to efficiently beat discard and E.Plague.

-Jon

If the plan is to beat both Discard and EPlague, then run Wilt-leaf Liege. I don't feel like B/x disruption is that difficult to fight through, and is exactly where you want to have a full set of DRS. Scavenging Ooze also gets around this problem just fine.

[MD.Ghost]

If the plan is to beat both Discard and EPlague, then run Wilt-leaf Liege. I don't feel like B/x disruption is that difficult to fight through, and is exactly where you want to have a full set of DRS. Scavenging Ooze also gets around this problem just fine.

I agree with Koby. I test 2 Scavenging Ooze Maindeck and it is very good (sometimes one ooze dies/is exiled, but never both). Ooze win every Deathrite Battle and is an perfect answer, if your opponent kill all elf dudes (plague etc.). With BUG on the rise, E.Plague is back in business (mainly vs goblins..) and without a lord effect, it is hard to combo off. Mirror Entity can't fight plague, so you need some other options. I prefer 3 Abrupt Decay and 1 Thrun from Sideboard, together with 2 Maindeck Oozes and some Deathrites, you don´t need Comboturns to smash your Opponent.

I also thought about Wilt-leaf Liege, because besides BUG, Jund, Deadguy and everyones Mothers playing Deathrites...
Wilt-leaf Liege is a Lord, with 4/4 immun to Lighning Bolt (and most Red Removal), Engineered Plague and most important Abrupt Decay (Sidenote, it needs more Jittecounters to kill Wilt-leaf Liege :tongue:)
On Paper very good - with a Metashift (less White Decks with Swords to Plowshards). Maybe i give it a try and find 1 Sideboard Slot.

[trevaftw]

Hey guys! Just joined The Source earlier today after hearing about it from one of the guys in my playgroup. Been playing/reading about combo elves since last summer. Here is my current decklist:


4 llanowar elves
4 deathrite shaman
4 nettle sentinel
4 heritage druid
4 birchlore rangers
4 wirewood symbiote
4 elvish visionary
1 quirion ranger
1 elvish archdruid
1 eternal witness
1 regal force
1 craterhoof behemoth
1 emrakul. The aeons torn

4 glimpse of nature
4 green sun's zenith
2 crop rotation

4 misty rainforest
4 verdant catacombs
4 forest
1 temple garden
1 overgrown tomb
1 cavern of souls
1 gaea's cradle

My biggest problem is I'm terrible at sideboarding. My typical sideboard looks like this:

3 mindbreak trap
1 gaddock teeg
1 dryad militant
1 gaea's herald
1 abrupt decay
2 krosan grip
1 oblivion ring
1 viridian shaman
2 rest in peace
1 beast within
1 bojuka bog

Mt LGS has weekly legacy every Thursday and one of my worst match ups is UW miracles. Something I want to try is adding in 4 envelop and adding a tropical island. The idea is when I combo off I can then use it to counter their terminus or if I fizzle I can stop their suprece verdict. Also, I would like to add a maze of ith or karaks to the sideboard too.

[lord182]

Hey guys! Just joined The Source earlier today after hearing about it from one of the guys in my playgroup. Been playing/reading about combo elves since last summer. Here is my current decklist:


4 llanowar elves
4 deathrite shaman
4 nettle sentinel
4 heritage druid
4 birchlore rangers
4 wirewood symbiote
4 elvish visionary
1 quirion ranger
1 elvish archdruid
1 eternal witness
1 regal force
1 craterhoof behemoth
1 emrakul. The aeons torn

4 glimpse of nature
4 green sun's zenith
2 crop rotation

4 misty rainforest
4 verdant catacombs
4 forest
1 temple garden
1 overgrown tomb
1 cavern of souls
1 gaea's cradle

My biggest problem is I'm terrible at sideboarding. My typical sideboard looks like this:

3 mindbreak trap
1 gaddock teeg
1 dryad militant
1 gaea's herald
1 abrupt decay
2 krosan grip
1 oblivion ring
1 viridian shaman
2 rest in peace
1 beast within
1 bojuka bog

Mt LGS has weekly legacy every Thursday and one of my worst match ups is UW miracles. Something I want to try is adding in 4 envelop and adding a tropical island. The idea is when I combo off I can then use it to counter their terminus or if I fizzle I can stop their suprece verdict. Also, I would like to add a maze of ith or karaks to the sideboard too.

Welcome! :smile:

If you look some list posted no ones MD Eternal Witness anymore because it's not an elf and is not needed, you can move your Viridian Shaman to MD. If you splash white try Mirror Entity, you can do some crazy combos with it :tongue:. You can't counter Supreme Veredict is uncounterable.

[Infinitium]

All I can say is: read the card. It doesn't have flying so chumpblocking Tombstalker is a no-go. It doesn't trade with Insectile also. You can murder the spirits yes. So if lingering souls is heavily played in your meta, try it out, but I'm not a fan of it. There are better cards to put in your SB.

Somehow convinced myself it had Reach. Somewhat junk in that case then, moving on. Currently having another look at Cavern of Souls since getting counterbalanced on turn 2 is rapidly getting old, and it's not like the manabase can't take it. In a perfect world it would also cover Chalice of the Void, which could conceivably allow me to move the Viridian Shaman SB (the remaining reasons to keep it being Artifact decks, which are already a positive mu, and Equipment which can usually be played around using Symbiotes).

Current manabase:

2 Forest
2 Bayou
4 Cavern of Souls
8 Fetchlands
(1 Gaea's Cradle)
(1 Dryad Arbor)


-DEATHRITE SHAMAN ISNT THAT GOOD. QUIT CUTTING LLANOWARS FOR HIM. SERIOUSLY.

Yes, stop arguing that it gives you oft needed reach and utility whilst simultaneously accelerating your deck. Also, quit offering empirical and anecdotal evidence that it's superior to what was previously the worst card of the deck. This guy seriously doesn't like it you guys! =( =( =(

[Godmode]

GREAT NEWS for Elves this weekend!


After an astonishing 12-1-1 run, Matt Nass made it to the Top8 at the Grand Prix Denver (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/gpden13/welcome) this week with a nicely tweeked and refreshed Elves list! Also, the infamous Luis Scott-Vargas reached the Top16 (if I'm not mistaken) with the same 75 as Matt.

Deck Tech: Elves with Matt Nass (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/gpden13/welcome#1) from Wizards.com

http://www.wizards.com/mtg/images/daily/events/gpden13/Elves.jpg

Matt Nass' Decklist:

2 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Forest
4 Gaea's Cradle
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Savannah
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath

1 Birchlore Rangers
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Elvish Visionary
1 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Heritage Druid
1 Llanowar Elves
4 Nettle Sentinel
1 Priest of Titania
4 Quirion Ranger
1 Regal Force
4 Wirewood Symbiote

4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Natural Order


Sideboard
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Mindbreak Trap
1 Natural Order
1 Progenitus
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Sylvan Library
1 Thorn of Amethyst


On a side note, another famous Elves player Chris Andersen is playing with the same decklist with only a difference (-1 Gaea's Cradle, +1 Crop Rotation) at the StarCityGames.com Legacy Open in Columbus (http://www.starcitygames.com/events/130106_columbus.html).

Deck Tech: Elves with Chris Andersen (http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/deck_tech_elves_with_chris_and.html) from StarCityGames.com


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=DIMjKbc-2r8





Edit: MORE GOOD NEWS...



Congratulations to Riley Curran who made history by winning, for the first time ever, a SCG Legacy Open with an Elves deck! He played with the Matt Nass' list (with the slight -1 Gaea's Cradle, +1 Crop Rotation tweek)!

>>> Riley 's Decklist <<< (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=52083)

StarCityGames.com Legacy Open Columbus » Top16 (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t[C1]=3&start_date=2012-12-30&end_date=2013-01-06&start=1&finish=16&event_ID=20&city=Columbus&state=OH&country=US)



Get your Natural Orders, your Craterhoof Behemoths, Gaea's Cradles, Deathrite Shamans and Abrupt Decays, because we have a new insane list to play!

[Koby]

Cool, and good for them! Elves was pretty good in the last 3-4 weeks between the Invitational and the GP. Now that it placed high in two tournaments over the weekend, there will be much more hate prepared for it. That doesn't bode well for Elves. Once hate (EPlague, Canonist, Perish, EE, etc) becomes critical mass it's hard to earn easy wins. CFB's list is solid -- I play it differently but mostly the same 90% of the cards. I love Emrakul too much to not play him over Craterhoof, and I'm not a fan of Natural Order.

I don't see Elves doing well in the next month however, because of the exposure already present, and reactionary SB cards making life difficult.

[Atikin]

Im struggling to figure out how to board with this deck. Ive been running it a few times on cockatrice using the latest 1st place list from the SCG open with a nearly identical sideboard bar a couple cards. The list is smooth game 1 but games 2 and 3 I never know what to take out for all the cards i wanna throw in from the side.

[Koby]

Avoid boarding into more than 4 non-creature spells. It really dilutes the strength of Glimpse when you go for it anyway.

[Atikin]

Knowing what I wanna put in is the easy part, its what to take out.

[Koby]

Knowing what I wanna put in is the easy part, its what to take out.

That depends on the matchup and expected "hate" cards. NO/Pro is quite terrible against Perish and Terminus, for instance

[Guy I Don't Know]

It would be great if people posted how they side boarded vs different matchups.

Most pertinent matchups in my opinion are BUG(Bob,Shardless Agent and Delver versions), Esper Stoneblade, Mirror, Jund, UW Miracles, Storm, Show and Tell, and RUG Delver.

[Koby]

It would be great if people posted how they side boarded vs different matchups.

Most pertinent matchups in my opinion are BUG(Bob,Shardless Agent and Delver versions), Esper Stoneblade, Mirror, Jund, UW Miracles, Storm, Show and Tell, and RUG Delver.

Not all versions of Elves are built the same, nor are all sideboards created equal. Do some thinking, find which cards/quantities are weak in the given matchups, and sideboard accordingly.

Hint: You can shave some numbers on the Combo elves engine like Heritage Druid and Llanowar Elf.

[flrn]

Boarding plans can also be playstyle dependant. I dislike boarding out Heritage Druid for example.

[Guy I Don't Know]

Not all versions of Elves are built the same, nor are all sideboards created equal. Do some thinking, find which cards/quantities are weak in the given matchups, and sideboard accordingly.

Hint: You can shave some numbers on the Combo elves engine like Heritage Druid and Llanowar Elf.

Don't care if someones sideboarding is correct just want to know what others are doing and get a discussion going on how people sideboard.

[Namida]

Don't care if someones sideboarding is correct just want to know what others are doing and get a discussion going on how people sideboard.

If you really want to get a discussion going, then why not post your own sideboard plans?

[Koby]

Fine, I'll bite:

For this 75 cards:
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Llanowar Elf
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Heritage Druid
2 Birchlore Rangers
2 Quirion Ranger
4 Elvish Visionary
1 Priest of Titania
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Elvish Archdruid

2 Regal Forge
4 Wirewood Symbiote
1 Emrakul
1 Gaddock Teeg

4 Glimpse of Nature
4 GSZ

3 Gaea's Cradle
1 Dryad Arbor
7 Fetch
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
4 Forest

SB:
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Thalia
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Scavenging Ooze

B/x Midrange with E-Plague & DRS:
-1 Priest of Titania
-1 Heritage Druid
-1 Gaddock Teeg
-1 Quirion Ranger
-1 Llanowar Elves
+3 Abrupt Decay
+2 Scavenging Ooze

UW/x with CB / Terminus / Jace / EE:
-1 Viridian Shaman
-1 Elvish Archdruid
-1 Quirion Ranger
-1 Heritage Druid
-1 Llanowar Elves
+3 Abrupt Decay
+2 Gaddock Teeg

Combo (Storm):
-1 Regal Force
-1 Quirion Ranger
-1 Elvish Visionary
-1 Viridian Shaman
-1 DRS
-1 Emrakul
-1 Elvish Archdruid
-1 Priest of Titania
-2 Heritage Druid
+4 Cabal Therapy
+3 Thorn of Amethyst
+1 Thalia
+2 Gaddock Teeg

Combo (S&T):
-1 Quirion Ranger
-1 Elvish Visionary
-1 Viridian Shaman
-1 DRS
-1 Llanowar Elves
-1 Regal Force
-1 Elvish Archdruid
-1 Heritage Druid
+4 Cabal Therapy
+3 Thorn of Amethyst
+1 Thalia

RUG:
-1 Priest of Titania
-1 Viridian Shaman
+2 Scavenging Ooze

Mirror:
-1 Viridian Shaman
+1 Cabal Therapy (Play) / Abrupt Decay (Draw)

This doesn't tell you much, however, since you're shaving here and there from redundant and slow portions of the deck. Each list may run a different configuration of excess elves, and so the cards you're taking out are harder to find and select. Knowing what comes in is the easy part - the SB is intuitive like that. Knowing which cards can be cut is the challenge. This comes best from testing, rather than theorycrafting.

[Atikin]

Seems like a lot of dilution to try and beat combo. How, on average, does your postboard combo matchup playout? What are your most common named cards with therapy? If you stop their combo, are you usually able to win before they rebuild (against a deck like storm you can beat em down with just four or five 1/1s before they can scuplt another hand, but what about a deck like reanimator or SNT that only need maybe 1-2 cards to combo again).

[MD.Ghost]

Seems like a lot of dilution to try and beat combo. How, on average, does your postboard combo matchup playout? What are your most common named cards with therapy? If you stop their combo, are you usually able to win before they rebuild (against a deck like storm you can beat em down with just four or five 1/1s before they can scuplt another hand, but what about a deck like reanimator or SNT that only need maybe 1-2 cards to combo again).

It depends against which combo deck (turn, board etc.) you play. Against Storm (TES/ANT/CAB etc.) i start naming a tutor (infernal tutor), because most storm decks play only a few finisher spells (1 tendrils, 1 past in flames, maybe 1 ad nauseam). With Cabal Therapy you have usually two shots, so naming a good mana ramp can also be an option. If you can stick thalia, teeg or thorn, you can also go for abrupt decay (the new catch all star). Last Weekend (local store tournamend) i got paired vs a good storm-combo opponent. I won 2:1 but need all hate (3 Cabal, 1 Thalia, 1 Gaddock, 1 Thorn) to have a chance. Comboplayers can discard your disruption spells or abrupt decay permanent hate before they go off (and they are faster than elves), one hate-spell per game isn´t enough to win. So yes - you need more than enough combo hate, or you can just ignore the matchup (if you have a friendly meta ;) ).
If you win the disruption-war against combo, beatdown with some 1/1s (or deathrite grind out) is more than enough, which means you don´t have to combo (but a small glimpse chain to find some spells can be a good move).

Show&Tell usually have 8 Spells (4 S&T, 4 Sneak Attack) to go off, you can also discard one of the 8 creatures to disrupt their combo. Some of us use Humility or even Oblivion Ring in the sideboard, if you have enough space and/or S&T decks are a meta factor, go for some additional permanent hate. Like koby i play emrakul as my prefered win condition (access via 2 living wish). Against S&T i move living wish to the sideboard and bring in 1 emrakul and 1 karakas (also an out vs reanimate or linvala) and some additional hate (cabal therapy).
Reanimate is much more difficult to fight (because they also have access to show&tell, so graveyard hate isn´t enough). I play 3 deathrite shaman and 1 ooze maindeck (and 1 more ooze sideboard) to have something vs graveyard. Maybe it is to slow, but reanimate isn´t a meta game factor here.

Conclusion: Against combo decks, i prefer split hate among spell and permanent solutions. In my option, you also need 6 minimum slots to have a real fighting change.

----------------------------

Other Sideboarding:

I agree with koby, most of time i board out -1 heritage, -1 priest of titania, -1 quirion ranger which frees 3 slots. Than i decide what i can also switch (-1 viridian shaman if the opponent have no artifact). Against most fair decks i board in:

+3 abrupt decay (works against everything, most of the time i need it vs engineered plague, but is also good vs goblin sharpshooter, jitte, dark confident and so on)
+1 umezawas jitte (no one board in artifact hate vs elves and you have an additional out vs the enemy jitte or can interact with the board situation, kill goblins, deathrite, confis, delver etc.)
+1 scavenging ooze (i play one main, but ooze is so good vs the new deathrite hype and can swing games after your elves faced deeds, explosives, plague, perish hate)

[blind]

I am not agree with your IN / OUT Koby. ;)


B/x Midrange with E-Plague & DRS:
-1 Priest of Titania
-1 Heritage Druid
-1 Gaddock Teeg
-1 Quirion Ranger
-1 Llanowar Elves
+3 Abrupt Decay
+2 Scavenging Ooze

I don't like keep Regal Force in this Mu. Your opponent play Plague (so you don't want overextend) and maybe Perish. Priest is good.


Combo (Storm):
-1 Regal Force
-1 Quirion Ranger
-1 Elvish Visionary
-1 Viridian Shaman
-1 DRS
-1 Emrakul
-1 Elvish Archdruid
-1 Priest of Titania
-2 Heritage Druid
+4 Cabal Therapy
+3 Thorn of Amethyst
+1 Thalia
+2 Gaddock Teeg

You can cut two Forest in this Mu and the second Regal Force.



RUG:
-1 Priest of Titania
-1 Viridian Shaman
+2 Scavenging Ooze

IN DECAY for the fucking DELVER ! :) -2 Regal Force (you have never the mana for play it) -1 Emrakul (you have Decay for Delver, Ooze for life and Archdruid for Pyroclasm, you can pass the turn).


Mirror:
-1 Viridian Shaman
+1 Cabal Therapy (Play) / Abrupt Decay (Draw)

REALLY? -2 Forest -1 Archdruid -1 Viridian +4 Cabal

[trevaftw]

With so many decks using Abrupt Decay these days, do you guys think it's worth using Leyline of Sanctity? It's 4cmc so it dodges AD, helps aginst storm, burn, and discard spells. The downside is how many sideboard spots would you dedicate to it.

[Infinitium]

Elves doesn't mulligan gracefully due to the low land count. I'd shy away from Leylines altogether.

[Godmode]

@blind

Are you giving this Matt Nass' list a chance? I've been using it and it's more prolific and consistent that the Chris Andersen's double Mirror list - at least in this current metagame. The Natural Order + Craterhoof Behemoth synergy definitely makes the deck more threatening.

[Justin]

Elves doesn't mulligan gracefully due to the low land count. I'd shy away from Leylines altogether.

This is an excellent point and I agree that Leylines aren't the best hate for Elves. Although I would say that it doesn't mulligan gracefully due to low land count and lack of cantrips. Delver decks have low land counts, but mulligan well due to running eight or so cantrips and spells that cost only one or two mana.

[Atikin]

I really believe that natural order into crater hoof is the way to go with this deck. I personally tested out natural order back when progenitus was first released and the problem was that they always had 1 if not 2 turns left after it resolved. Now that we finally have a green creature that can win on the spot for only 4 mana, i believe its better than even glimpse of green suns zenith in many cases. A hand such as natural order a couple lands and 4 or so guys is stronger than the same hand if you replace that order with glimpse or zenith. Another great perk to craterhoof vs emrakul is that its fetchable with zenith, so you effectively end up with an extra 4 possible win conditions than if you ran mirror or emrakul. Additionally, if drawn it is much easier to cast than emrakul, and while sure this deck generates more mana than perhaps any deck in the format, the diffference in 8 versus 15 is still staggering and does come into play in actual scenarios.

Basically, craterhoof has all of the perks and then some over emrakul/mirror, but without any of the drawbacks. Only scenario I can think of where you would want emrakul but not craterhoof is if you drew it in your hand, and then additionally were able to somehow generate 15 mana but not able to generate 8 with one or two guys untapped. Even mirror entity at this point has slightly more perks then emrakul, and those perks are still nowhere on the level of craterhoof. Ive certainly had cases where craterhoof didnt win me the game that turn, but it gave me a fighting change whereas with emrakul i would have never been able to tutor for it or cast it for 4 mana in the first place and with mirror I would need to have a savannah + draw it naturally. Basically what im getting at in this little rant is that... I really dont see a good reason to run something like emrakul and natural order seems to be the way to go as an easy to cast, low requirement win condition. Off of the topdeck it will almost always be better than glimpse or zenith, if you get a scenario where the dude you lose if they counter was game changing, then chances are neither glimpse nor zenith would have saved you either.

[Justin]

I've actually tested Craterhoof Behemoth and it works surprisingly well. I dismissed it at first, because I was unsure at how effective it could be at winning the turn it comes down. However, after testing it, I can see that it is usually an instant win when it enters the battlefield after the deck combos off. Even if most of your elves are "sick", you can untap your unsick ones with Wirewood Symbiote and Quirion Ranger and swing for lethal. I've dropped Emrakul for Craterhoof now. Instant win for 8 mana and targettable via GSZ and NO is a lot better than instant win for 15 mana and not tutorable.

[RaZe]

I'm actually am running Summoner's Pact instead of Glimpse in conjunction with Craterhoof Behemoth. Although it was due to budget and availability concerns [Glimpse and Natural Order] at first, I do believe it is a valid option for elves. With that I even fit a playset of Elvish Archdruid to supplement the aggro part of the deck. And is a legitimate threat with all the other elves we are able to dump out.

[catmint]

Haven't played elves in ages, but this new list caught my attention.

My comments & questions:

Played NO back then when Progenitus was a thing and I used it often as a 4 mana (-1 dude) Regal Force. Craterhoof looks like such a strong upgrade, since you can cut Emrakul for the instant win and 8 mana (9 with zenith) is so much easier to cast in a non combo turn.

What is the deal with Deathrite Shaman?
Am I missing anything - the grindy 2 life-loss, life gain seems very weak. Is it just for the color-mana (sideboard cards)?
The downside of not making green mana 100% (especially in the not uncommon scenario that the opponent has a DRS) looks like a huge downside to me. Also Quirion ranger untapping "mana-elf" used to be a strong tech for an explosive (also non-glimpse) turn 2 dumping your hand. Also not guaranteed with DRS.

Why did Summoner's Pact fall out of favour? Best card with an active glimpse. Can see it beeing reduced but completely cut...?

[Zombie]

Haven't played Deathrite-Craterhoof Elves yet, but I'd imagine the grindy abilities are quite useful - for one, you can just board stall with Symbiote and drain them with Deathrites without the need to commit to a combo turn. After a bit of draining, Craterhoof can become lethal when it otherwise wouldn't be. You also easily get multiple Deathrites on the field and so can interfere with opposing ones. 2 Toughness, so it can withstand Engineered Plague and a couple other irritations. The mana is the main thing, no doubt, but it seems amazingly useful otherwise as well.

Plus, hey, it helps against Reanimator. Last I checked pointy-ears had some problems with that...

The Pact and other stuff are simply adaptations to a somewhat grindier, less Glimpse-centric gameplan. T1 manadork T2 dump T3 Craterhoof, Symbiote grinding and the like benefit from other search methods much more.

[Atikin]

Haven't played elves in ages, but this new list caught my attention.

My comments & questions:

Played NO back then when Progenitus was a thing and I used it often as a 4 mana (-1 dude) Regal Force. Craterhoof looks like such a strong upgrade, since you can cut Emrakul for the instant win and 8 mana (9 with zenith) is so much easier to cast in a non combo turn.

What is the deal with Deathrite Shaman?
Am I missing anything - the grindy 2 life-loss, life gain seems very weak. Is it just for the color-mana (sideboard cards)?
The downside of not making green mana 100% (especially in the not uncommon scenario that the opponent has a DRS) looks like a huge downside to me. Also Quirion ranger untapping "mana-elf" used to be a strong tech for an explosive (also non-glimpse) turn 2 dumping your hand. Also not guaranteed with DRS.

Why did Summoner's Pact fall out of favour? Best card with an active glimpse. Can see it beeing reduced but completely cut...?

Deathrite shaman has its tradeoffs, and you did a good job listing some of them. However the pros outweigh the cons, especially as we have transitioned into a grindier elf deck that relies less and less on glimpse with each iteration. Turn 2 wins have become less frequent, but turn 3/4 wins have become almost guaranteed. It basically comes down to deathrite being only slightly worse than llanowar in matchups that are already favorable, but better in those that we have to grind out. If we get our board wiped or our hand countered into oblivion, deathrite can be one of the best topdecks to give you reach to seal it out. Kind of the same reason a deck like burn that tries to win turn 3 or 4 still runs grim lavamancer.

Summoners pact fell out of flavor in that without an active glimpse it really isnt the best card to have and having to pay 4 next turn can really slow you down in a lot of cases. Paying the extra mana for GSZ and not having to pay 4 is better in most instances where you dont have an active glimpse up. We are trying to make this deck more consistent and as least reliant on a four-of as possible.

Also congratulations to John Harduvel for placing 12th at the recent scg. Heres his list http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=52281 (LIST) I think if you take a ratio of how many total elf decks there are at these recent tournaments, and how often they get into top 16 spots, it really is up there with some of the best decks. A deck like rug might have 30 people piloting it and get 2-3 in the top 16, but a deck like elves will only have a couple and is still putting people up there.

[trevaftw]

I also play cheeri0s and recently ordered some Personal Tutor to finish the deck. Going to playtest it as a 2x of right now and see how it goes.

[nudon]

I've been following this thread closely since August (pg. 133 or so) and finally took the leap into legacy with Elves! in October. Before then, I was just a casual EDH player. I'm pretty aware of the bad matchups (UW CounterTop, fast combo, etc.) and wanted to gauge how to improve my deck the most without breaking the bank. My current decklist (all cards owned) is in the link below:

http://deckstats.net/deck-1823468-fcbc3ab769428ff0ce6781c84283e62c.html

I threw the sideboard together on a budget so there is definitely room for improvement there. Some things in the deck I'd obviously like to change are:
1. Splashing black for DRS, Cabal Therapy, and Abrupt Decay
2. Using Craterhoof Behemoth/Mirror Entity as my win-con
3. Maybe trying Natural Order (similar to LSV's list)
4. Add Scavenging Ooze to the SB to deal with reanimator

Which of these would increase the power level of my deck the most? Also, how much worse is NO when there is a lot of counter-magic in the meta? Is it worse than having a Crop Rotation countered? The 2nd rotation in my list serves as a 4th cradle currently for budget reasons. I also own an Overgrown Tomb, should I use that for now as a placeholder for Bayou? Thanks in advance. Glad to FINALLY be a part of the Elves community. :)

[trevaftw]

For those who are heavily splashing black, what do you guys think of elves of deep shadow?

[ceustice]

Has anyone tried Edric, Spymaster of Trest in Elves he seems awesome when on the aggro plan he helps keep your hand full kind of acts like another Glimpse.

[Koby]

For those who are heavily splashing black, what do you guys think of elves of deep shadow?

Can't cast Wirewood Symbiote. Not worth it even if it didn't cost life to use.

[Atikin]

For those who are heavily splashing black, what do you guys think of elves of deep shadow?

How heavy is this splash? Ive never seen a list where at least 30+ cards in the deck didnt cost a single lone G mana. I splash black for deathrite and ive never had issues making black, let alone paying a life for it.

[Lans89]

I can't find a tournament report of 1 of the latest good results (with the Craterhoof, Deathrite's and side Decay). Are there any around?

I'm interested in their sideboarding during the tournaments.. And as I've read in this thread I am not the only one!

[Atog]

I can't find a tournament report of 1 of the latest good results (with the Craterhoof, Deathrite's and side Decay). Are there any around?

I'm interested in their sideboarding during the tournaments.. And as I've read in this thread I am not the only one!

There's one:

http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/getting-nassty-elves-in-denver-top-8/

[infant_no_1]

I played the little green men at SCG Dallas. 5-3 record landing me at 65th. Right outside the money.

For reference here is my list:
Main
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Green Sun’s Zenith
4 Heritage Druid
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Natural Order
4 Quirion Ranger
1 Priest of Titania
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Fyndhorn Elves
1 Birchlore Rangers
1 Regal Force
1 Llanowar Elves
1 Forest
2 Dryad Arbor
1 Savannah
2 Bayou
3 Windswept Heath
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Gaea’s Cradle

Side
2 Mindbreak Trap
1 Natural Order
1 Elvish Archdruid
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Progenitus
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Harmonic Silver
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Scavenging Ooze

My notes are non-existant so details are suspect.

Round 1 - David G - Smallpox
Game 1 was a grind, I kept bashing in with elves, he kept casting spot removal and smallpox. Eventually he lands a Hexmage and finishes me off. Game 2 was a truncated version of game 1. I'm pretty sure I screwed up in sideboarding by not bringing in the Abrupt Decays, I seemed to have forgotten Engineered Plague was a card.
Matches 0-1, Games 0-2

Considering this was my 4th total match with this deck I refused to be discouraged. On to the next round!

Round 2 - Kaider S - BUG
Game 1 he mulled into oblivion. I think I eventually got him with the Craterhoof. Game 2 was a double mull for my opponent.
Matches 1-1 (2-2)

Round 3 - Lyall A - Tezzerator
Game 1, he leads off with Underground Sea, Tropical, Dimir Signet. I then met a turn 4 Damnation, followed by Tezz. Game 2 I barfed my hand out because I'm an idiot and am on the wrong side of Perish.
I'm pretty sure I misplayed Game 2, but I'm not sure how to play around Perish.
Matches 1-2 (2-4)

Round 4 - Michael H - Merfolk
I do not remember this one.
Matches 2-2 (4-4)

Round 5 - Ty R - Belcher
Ty is on the play & leads off with Gitaxian Probe into Street Wraith then passes turn. We both play collect the cards for a few minutes, I get Craterhoof out & do not explicitly state that the 'hoof trigger is there. I then return a forest with the Ranger, turn my guys all sideways and say "Kill you" He smugly reminds me that I did something after putting the hoof into play so I don't get the trigger. I could have called a judge and might have been able to make my case, but being an L2 myself I knew it was probably a waste of time. Plus he had 1 card in hand and I had lethal next turn.
Game 2 he dropped 2 lotus petals and 2 tinder walls in one motion, and he storms for 10 goblins. I drop a fetch, get a land and drop Nettle Sentinel. He attacks with all 10 guys, I block and kill 1 going to 10. I then proceed to attack him, cast more elves including another Nettle Sentinel. More blocks ensue putting me at 3. I then cast another Sentinel and gain some life with my DR Shaman and attack killing off the rest of his tokens. He then draws and passes back to me. I deal the killing blow. He then started to tell me how Belcher should have won and how well positioned he was for the day. I just took the slip and walked off. I've played Belcher forever and knew the guy was making mistakes left and right.
Matches 3-2 (6-4)

Round 6 - Chris R - Jund
This one went to 3 games, I won game 1 without him doing much of anything. I wasn't entirely sure what to board in, but brought in the enchantment hate just in case. Game 2 he played ALL of the Tarmogoyfs. Game 3 was a Turn 1 Plague. I cast Nettle Sentinel and DR Shaman to try to grind a few points out, but his 2nd Shaman, Lili and 2 Bloodbraid Elves all got there.
Matches 3-3 (7-6)

Round 7 - James M - Dark Times
James was extremely softspoken, I could barely him. I felt bad for asking him to repeat himself over & over. I just outraced him both games. They were uneventful for the most part.
Matches 4-3 (9-6)

Round 8 - Eric N - Goblins
Eric led off Game 1 with the typical Lackey play, meeting a Nettle Sentinel. I just made sure he never connected with the little bastard. I then manage to chain together Regal Force and Craterhoof. Game 2 he had a Warren Instigator on turn 2. Once again I played defensively sacrificing guys when I needed in order to stop the Instigator. Eventually I get the Archdruid out and my guys are are bigger than his finally. I then am able to NO into a Hoof & he concedes.
Matches 5-3 (11-6)

Not too bad for it's first real showing and factoring in that I am certain I made a few mistakes during the day. Things I would change main deck: Taking out 1 Glimpse and replacing with either the Archdruid, Progen, or Emrakul. In the sideboard I never used the mindbreak Traps, but Storm was everywhere. I'd like to put 2 more Decays in there for Engineered Plague. That card slowed me down a few times throughout the day. I'm just not sure what to do versus the board sweepers like Damnation and Perish.

Sorry if this was too long, I fell in love with this deck the week before GP Denver and just wanted to share the honeymoon tournament.

-j-

[Atikin]

Round 5 - Ty R - Belcher
Ty is on the play & leads off with Gitaxian Probe into Street Wraith then passes turn. We both play collect the cards for a few minutes, I get Craterhoof out & do not explicitly state that the 'hoof trigger is there. I then return a forest with the Ranger, turn my guys all sideways and say "Kill you" He smugly reminds me that I did something after putting the hoof into play so I don't get the trigger. I could have called a judge and might have been able to make my case, but being an L2 myself I knew it was probably a waste of time. Plus he had 1 card in hand and I had lethal next turn.

What a prick...

[Reagens]

I've been testing the NO version as well.
One question.
I feel very dependant on craterhoof (he's a gamewinner every time he lands) and was wondering if I was the only one considering of playing a second copy maindeck. Drawing him on the wrong moment (just before NO) or having it discarded is very crippling to the deck.

[andrebonotto]

I've been testing the NO version as well.
One question.
I feel very dependant on craterhoof (he's a gamewinner every time he lands) and was wondering if I was the only one considering of playing a second copy maindeck. Drawing him on the wrong moment (just before NO) or having it discarded is very crippling to the deck.

Well, I don't know if it would be good increasing the number of Craterhoof Behemoths (the deck slots are tight; and the mana curve is already a little high with the Natural Orders and Regal Force)...

But maybe you could test moving your Progenitus from Sideboard to Maindeck, giving you, this way, two potential "win condition-targets" for NO (disregarding Regal Force's eventual potential as win-con.), while freeing one SB slot.

...

However, since this option still heightens your mana curve, you could, alternativelly run 1x Ezuri, Renegade Leader maindeck as a second win-con. that is not-so-hardly-tutorable with Green Sun's Zenith - or with NO, if you want to spend the same amount of mana but are willing to trade an 'useless' creature in order to not let NO be a 'dead card' on your hand.

[Lans89]

There's one:

http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/getting-nassty-elves-in-denver-top-8/

Thanks a lot! If anyone finds more reports, please post them here :P! Sideboardings is rly a pain...

[infant_no_1]

Thanks a lot! If anyone finds more reports, please post them here :P! Sideboardings is rly a pain...

Sideboarding is a major pain. I took a lot of my sideboarding plans from this report:
http://legitmtg.com/competitive/hoof-there-it-i/

I don't think I ever brought in the 4th NO, the Cabal Therapy & Mindbreak Trap were also useless in the matchups I played. Most of my sideboarding was taking out the singletons & trimming some of the 4-ofs.

[flrn]

I like the sideboard of the Chris Anderson take on the deck from the SCG video deckcheck way more, than the Matt Nass one. Still the sideboard is a metacall. Think about, what you need in your local metagame and just put it there.

[chinEsE girl]

I just got back after top 8'ing the most recent NELC at Jupiter Games. I was playing the same 75 that Riley played at SCG Colombus, except I had a 2-2 split of therepy and thoughtseize. All I have to say right now is that the deck is actually absurd. I went 5-1-1 in the swiss, going 2-0 in all my match wins and still going 1-2 in the one that I lost, where he pretty much had turn 1 lavamancer every single game. I lost in top 8 when I mulled no land hands all the way down to 2 cards each time, and I felt that any of those 7 or 6 cards hands with a single land would of easily won. I'm going to post a report here in a little bit and go over how everything went. All I wanna say right now is that the deck felt incredible and I will definitely be playing it for the foreseeable future.


Edit: the report can be found here http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?25458-Elf-You-Top-8-at-the-February-Jupiter-Games-NELC&p=701881#post701881

[Atikin]

I just got back after top 8'ing the most recent NELC at Jupiter Games. I was playing the same 75 that Riley played at SCG Colombus, except I had a 2-2 split of therepy and thoughtseize. All I have to say right now is that the deck is actually absurd. I went 5-1-1 in the swiss, going 2-0 in all my match wins and still going 1-2 in the one that I lost, where he pretty much had turn 1 lavamancer every single game. I lost in top 8 when I mulled no land hands all the way down to 2 cards each time, and I felt that any of those 7 or 6 cards hands with a single land would of easily won. I'm going to post a report here in a little bit and go over how everything went. All I wanna say right now is that the deck felt incredible and I will definitely be playing it for the foreseeable future.

Looking forward to reading it mate!

[MD.Ghost]

@ chinEsE girl: Congrats!

My current version:

// Lands
3 Forest
2 Gaea's Cradle
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Pendelhaven
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Savannah
1 Bayou

// Creatures
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Birchlore Rangers
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Heritage Druid
3 Llanowar Elves
4 Nettle Sentinel
1 Qasali Pridemage
3 Quirion Ranger
4 Wirewood Symbiote
1 Regal Force
1 Craterhoof Behemoth

// Spells
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Natural Order
1 Crop Rotation

// Sideboard
SB: 2 Abrupt Decay
SB: 4 Cabal Therapy
SB: 1 Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
SB: 2 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Terastodon
SB: 1 Mortarpod
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 1 Karakas
SB: 1 Viridian Shaman

After a small tournament with some friends last thursday (I went 4-0-1 / 2:0 vs Punishing Maverick; 2:0 vs Infect; 1:1 vs UWr Miracle; 2:1 vs The Rock; 2:0 vs Affinity ) i decided to play the deck against our local berlin meta.

The local store tournament was yesterday and the deck works really well. I went 4-1-0, only lost against High Tide (vs Mon Goblin Warchief :wink:).

Matchups:

2:1 vs Team America (Aggro)
2:0 vs BGU Madness
1:2 vs High Tide
2:1 vs Enchantress
2:1 vs UWr Miracle

Natural Order into Craterhoof is a scary efficient play. (Against Miracle i walked over his Counterbalance with Turn 3 Natural Order and 21 Damage..)

Some Details:

One Maindeck Pridemage was very good, you don´t lose against problematic enchantments (and jitte) - the safer game 1 win chance against some matchups (compared to viridian shaman).

Pendelhaven is good in grind matches (miracle etc.), because you have only one or two 1/1 dudes and every free, uncounterable pump works good, in matches were you have only small windows between sweepers.

I decided to put in my Scavenging Ooze in the Priest of Titania Slot, because i allways board Priest out (and most of the Time Ooze in) so it was a good option for a resilient maindeck answer which wins deathrite-wars and works quite well against some decks with game 1 sweepers (engineered explosives, deed, supreme verdict...).

Sideboard: I don´t like the NO-Progenitus Plan, because if you draw the monster you can´t get rid of it (unless you luckily get hit by a hymn..) It´s also only a "two turn" clock which dies to sweeper (perish, supreme, terminus) and (remember Grand Prix) Liliana... I decided to test Terastodon (kills Omnitell; Planeswalker; Moat; etc), which can also be a one Turn clock (18 damage) - sure it also dies against sweepers, but with this in mind, you can destroy some of the opponent permanents.
Maybe i cut Terastodon (it is my flex slot) and try out other resilient options (Thrun, or Garruk Wildspeaker) mainly against miracle or massiv hate some decks can bring against us.

I think Elves-Combo is a great deck in todays meta and with natural order and craterhoof it is extremly fast against other "fair" decks.

[Reagens]

I've done some (not much) tournament play with the deck and personally I sided in the 4th NO quite a lot.
There is quite a lot of BUG-control (discard+counters) and jund (discard and lots of removal) in my metagame and a resolved NO is practically always game. Most people also side out liliana PB and thus are very soft to progenitus.

[Atikin]

This deck has become really solid. Congrats to the two elves players in the top 16 of SCG Atlanta!

[Capt4in]

I played Elves combo to a top 4 split at a local 45-person event this weekend, finishing 4-0-2 in the swiss, beating 2x Jund, 2x BUG, then double-drawing into top 8 with Sneak/Show and 4c Cascade, and beating Goblins in the Quarterfinals. I played basically Riley/Chrandersen's list, with a forest in place of the Savannah and an extra Abrupt Decay and a Mortarpod (I think? Maybe the sb Dryad Arbor) in the Teeg/Pridemage slots. I personally don't think Teeg is necessary against combo (with 2 Mindbreak Traps, 4 Therapies, and a reasonable clock) nor do I think he is enough against Miracles, since he shuts off Zeniths and NO. Pridemage is fine, but I was able to fight through Plagues just fine all day, switching to the Progenitus plan postboard against black decks. I can see where you'd want Pridemage against something like Moat or Energy Field, but those are unpopular enough in my meta that I don't think they are necessary.

Didn't play very many different matchups, so don't have a lot of matchup insight other than that other Deathrite Shaman decks seem like pretty favorable matchups, as they are too slow to race you and don't have enough disruption/removal to keep you off of all 3 of Symbiote/Visionary, Glimpse combo, and Natural Order.

[Atikin]

I played Elves combo to a top 4 split at a local 45-person event this weekend, finishing 4-0-2 in the swiss, beating 2x Jund, 2x BUG, then double-drawing into top 8 with Sneak/Show and 4c Cascade, and beating Goblins in the Quarterfinals. I played basically Riley/Chrandersen's list, with a forest in place of the Savannah and an extra Abrupt Decay and a Mortarpod (I think? Maybe the sb Dryad Arbor) in the Teeg/Pridemage slots. I personally don't think Teeg is necessary against combo (with 2 Mindbreak Traps, 4 Therapies, and a reasonable clock) nor do I think he is enough against Miracles, since he shuts off Zeniths and NO. Pridemage is fine, but I was able to fight through Plagues just fine all day, switching to the Progenitus plan postboard against black decks. I can see where you'd want Pridemage against something like Moat or Energy Field, but those are unpopular enough in my meta that I don't think they are necessary.

Didn't play very many different matchups, so don't have a lot of matchup insight other than that other Deathrite Shaman decks seem like pretty favorable matchups, as they are too slow to race you and don't have enough disruption/removal to keep you off of all 3 of Symbiote/Visionary, Glimpse combo, and Natural Order.

Most fair decks are a good match up for elves, showing in its recent success due to the decline of combo. The bad match ups for this deck are by far and away the combo decks that can win a turn or two faster without having to interact.

[Capt4in]

Most fair decks are a good match up for elves, showing in its recent success due to the decline of combo. The bad match ups for this deck are by far and away the combo decks that can win a turn or two faster without having to interact.

Yeah, that's basically what I figured. I knew I was lucky convincing the Show and Tell player to draw with me. He was also to be my semifinal opponent before we negotiated the split, so I got lucky there as well. It does feel weird to me that I consider Force of Will decks to be my good matchups playing a combo deck, but it does seem that way. Miracles seems pretty rough though, and it does seem to me to be the strongest argument for the white splash.

[LeoCop 90]

I'm building an Elves deck... I know that the better lists now are G/B/W but for budget reasons i would like to stay mono-green until i can buy duals.
Who can give some advices on how to build an optimal mono-green list? Which are the best win conditions ? How should i build my sideboard? Thanks.

[Blastoderm]

I'm building an Elves deck... I know that the better lists now are G/B/W but for budget reasons i would like to stay mono-green until i can buy duals.
Who can give some advices on how to build an optimal mono-green list? Which are the best win conditions ? How should i build my sideboard? Thanks.

Well by removing deathrite shaman you can get rid of all the fetches and duals and replace them with forests. Shaman can be replaced with Llanowar elves and you can stick to the Natural Order --> Craterhoof wincon. As for the SB...you can put in some meekstones against RUG, 1 gaddock teeg against miracles, etc. Fighting show and tell without cabal therapy might be hard though.

[Atikin]

I'm building an Elves deck... I know that the better lists now are G/B/W but for budget reasons i would like to stay mono-green until i can buy duals.
Who can give some advices on how to build an optimal mono-green list? Which are the best win conditions ? How should i build my sideboard? Thanks.

Should be pretty simple to figure out just by looking at the list no? Take out fetches/duals/deathrites/B or W cards. For deathrites put in llanowars/fyndhorn, for fetches/duals put in forests. For the sb put in whatever mono green card you want. Done!

[nudon]

I'm building an Elves deck... I know that the better lists now are G/B/W but for budget reasons i would like to stay mono-green until i can buy duals.
Who can give some advices on how to build an optimal mono-green list? Which are the best win conditions ? How should i build my sideboard? Thanks.

Replace DRS with llanowars and fyndhorns and fetches/duals with forests. You can run summoner's pact instead of natural order too. For the sideboard, faerie macabre + thorn of amethyst are important since you don't have black.

[Hencules]

Hi guys!

decided to start playing this deck after the success by the three elf men: Mat Nass, Luis-Scot Vargas and Chris Anderson. The deck they play feels very powerful and has a high chance of beating the fair decks, whilst having a solid post-board plan for unfair decks.

However, I do think the deck is really hard to play. The problem is that I wants to combo way to often, rather than grinding the game out. How do you guys go about that problem? Most of those guys that pilot it to Top8's say it's aggro first, combo second. Perhaps some strategy tips?

Thanks a lot!

[Reagens]

Question for the people that are playing this deck somewhat longer.
Show and tell is probably the weakest match-up for this deck when considering all tier 1/2 decks. Has anybody found an effective way to deal with show and tell PB or does it always remain a shaky match-up?
If you have some info on what are the key cards/plays that would be nice as well :)

[danyul]

Question for the people that are playing this deck somewhat longer.
Show and tell is probably the weakest match-up for this deck when considering all tier 1/2 decks. Has anybody found an effective way to deal with show and tell PB or does it always remain a shaky match-up?
If you have some info on what are the key cards/plays that would be nice as well :)

It will always remain a bit shaky, as their god-draws just trump your god-draws. You have to draw better than them and winning the die roll helps a bunch. That said, their derpy draws are way worse than yours, as your derpy draws at least give you an army of 1/1s. Post board, you want to have access to Crop Rotation in the main (I run 2) and side in a Karakas, some hand disruption, perhaps Harmonic Sliver/Qasali Pridemage, and most importantly Gaddock Teeg. Teeg shuts off their Sneak Attack and Force of Will which are arguably their most dangerous cards against us. I don't mind Show and Tell that much since it gives you at least a turn to find an answer or just go off. Sneak Attack kills you on the spot.

That's my experience anyway.

[Darklingske]

[QUOTE=danyul;703814]It will always remain a bit shaky, as their god-draws just trump your god-draws. You have to draw better than them and winning the die roll helps a bunch. That said, their derpy draws are way worse than yours, as your derpy draws at least give you an army of 1/1s. Post board, you want to have access to Crop Rotation in the main (I run 2) and side in a Karakas, some hand disruption, perhaps Harmonic Sliver/Qasali Pridemage, and most importantly Gaddock Teeg. Teeg shuts off their Sneak Attack and Force of Will which are arguably their most dangerous cards against us. I don't mind Show and Tell that much since it gives you at least a turn to find an answer or just go off. Sneak Attack kills you on the spot.[QUOTE]

I aggree with almost everything you said, except not minding S&T. A smart opponent will play S&T and land Sneak Attack with it. And that poses a BIG problem. Unless you board in Humility and can drop that off the S&T. I really hate the MU. I always feel that I'm behind and can't do anything about it.

[Blastoderm]

I've always been confused as to why keep the singleton priest of titania. I've found it better to replace it with a 2nd crop rotation or a maindeck pridemage/ooze. I don't see any uses for it...

[Reagens]

Did anyone ever test pithing needle for the sneak match-up? Resolving it seems strong to me.

As to a singleton karakas I won't do it. I refuse to play off color lands that will probably be useless anyway. I was considering cutting crop rotation anyway.
The deck can function on 1 forest (although 2-3 are ideal) and rotation is not a land by itself (thus can be replaced by another spell). The blow-outs don't compensate for the difficulties. I would consider concordant crossroads in the slot though. It functions somewhat similar (I.e. it generates tons of mana when the timing is right and it allows you not to have to pass the turn in some cases when comboing).
I'm not saying that it will just do that but I will be exploring the option to make sure :)

[chinEsE girl]

I've always been confused as to why keep the singleton priest of titania. I've found it better to replace it with a 2nd crop rotation or a maindeck pridemage/ooze. I don't see any uses for it...

The priest is insane against all the slow combo decks as well as in the mirror. Against something like 12 post or enchantress, you get to T1 mana dork, turn 2 GSZ for priest, and then almost certainly win on your next turn with all the mana you can generate with priest plus ranger or symbiote. This line is also just about the best thing you can do in the mirror other than just combing out on your turn 2.

[danyul]

I aggree with almost everything you said, except not minding S&T. A smart opponent will play S&T and land Sneak Attack with it. And that poses a BIG problem. Unless you board in Humility and can drop that off the S&T. I really hate the MU. I always feel that I'm behind and can't do anything about it.

When I spoke of the distinction between Sneak Attack and Show and Tell, I was mostly thinking of them independent of one another. If your opponent has both in hand as well as a dude to sneak in, then he just had the god-draw and you can't do too much about that.


Did anyone ever test pithing needle for the sneak match-up? Resolving it seems strong to me.

As to a singleton karakas I won't do it. I refuse to play off color lands that will probably be useless anyway. I was considering cutting crop rotation anyway.
The deck can function on 1 forest (although 2-3 are ideal) and rotation is not a land by itself (thus can be replaced by another spell). The blow-outs don't compensate for the difficulties. I would consider concordant crossroads in the slot though. It functions somewhat similar (I.e. it generates tons of mana when the timing is right and it allows you not to have to pass the turn in some cases when comboing).
I'm not saying that it will just do that but I will be exploring the option to make sure :)

I've used Pithing Needle in other decks with the Sneak Attack matchup in mind. It is not bad.

As far as the singleton Karakas, I think you are looking at the card from the wrong perspective. Karakas is not a land. It is a free spell that takes up a land drop. When you side it in, you are not removing lands from the maindeck. So using Karakas should in no way change your manabase or hinder your ability to play your other spells. Your use of the word "blowout" is also perhaps a bit misplaced. Topdecking a Karakas against a deck with problematic legends, even if I have no white cards in hand, is in no way a blowout. In the games where you side in Karakas, you want to see it ASAP anyway. However, tossing down a Concordant Crossroads can often be a blowout if you aren't able to combo off and win that turn. It is not uncommon to fizzle mid-combo, only to pass the turn with a medium sized squad of tapped elves. Giving your opponent free haste can be sketchy in those cases.

[Reagens]

I've used Pithing Needle in other decks with the Sneak Attack matchup in mind. It is not bad.

As far as the singleton Karakas, I think you are looking at the card from the wrong perspective. Karakas is not a land. It is a free spell that takes up a land drop. When you side it in, you are not removing lands from the maindeck. So using Karakas should in no way change your manabase or hinder your ability to play your other spells. Your use of the word "blowout" is also perhaps a bit misplaced. Topdecking a Karakas against a deck with problematic legends, even if I have no white cards in hand, is in no way a blowout. In the games where you side in Karakas, you want to see it ASAP anyway. However, tossing down a Concordant Crossroads can often be a blowout if you aren't able to combo off and win that turn. It is not uncommon to fizzle mid-combo, only to pass the turn with a medium sized squad of tapped elves. Giving your opponent free haste can be sketchy in those cases.

I was using blowout in reference to midcombo being able to rotate a tapped land out for a cradle. Karakas is seldomly a blowout against show and tell decks.

Your second point (regarding crossroads) I'm only partially following. The whole point of playing it would be not to be obliged to have to pass the turn because topdecked mana elves (think priest) are so much more relevant. If it is in your opening grip for example I would only cast it when safe (2nd turn for example, to combo turn 3 with extra mana) or in the combo turn itself. Being obliged to pass the turn with all elves tapped seems kind of rare with a playset nettle sentinel, quirion ranger and wirewood in your deck.

[Malakai]

Harmonic Sliver seems strictly better than Pridemage in this deck. Cursed Totem is a card, and it's not like you're swinging for the win with one creature.

[Hencules]

I'm trying to get a bit better at playing this deck, so I'm looking for some recorded matches. Are there legacy elves players who stream on twitch.tv? Would be great!

[Atog]

I'm trying to get a bit better at playing this deck, so I'm looking for some recorded matches. Are there legacy elves players who stream on twitch.tv? Would be great!

Dunno about twitch.tv but LSV has some recorded matches at www.channelfireball.com. You can also find some featurematches from www.ggslive.com from last GP where matt nass played elves.

[Atikin]

I'm trying to get a bit better at playing this deck, so I'm looking for some recorded matches. Are there legacy elves players who stream on twitch.tv? Would be great!

The above mentioned lsv videos are good, and you can always browse scg opens or what not on the tc deck video section.

[Hencules]

Dunno about twitch.tv but LSV has some recorded matches at www.channelfireball.com. You can also find some featurematches from www.ggslive.com from last GP where matt nass played elves.

Those LSV videos are great, indeed. That's just the stuff I was looking for, now I'm looking if there are more recorded videos (or streams) like that.

[Hencules]

Whoa... DtB for Elves? Is that feasible for this deck?

[danyul]

You are clearly a nonbeliever, a blasphemer, and a traitor to all of Elvenkind. I will arrange to have you banished atop the Tower of Isengard! Where no grass will touch your feet and no earth will steady your stance. You, the banished one, will languish in doubt until the end times.

[Atikin]

My pet deck and the tribe which got me hooked on magic during onslaught, is now a DtB?! I never thought... this moment... could come true. *tears up*

On a more serious note, what are peoples thought on the split of cradle vs rotation? I'm currently testing out 2-2 and have liked it so far. Additionally it opens up room for karakas and bojuka bog in the sideboard, but I am not sold on these yet.

Also thoughts on qasali pridemage vs harmonic sliver in the board. Or both?

[KobeBryan]

I hate this deck...why is it now at DTB. I cannot beat this deck for the life of me.

[danyul]

My pet deck and the tribe which got me hooked on magic during onslaught, is now a DtB?! I never thought... this moment... could come true. *tears up*

On a more serious note, what are peoples thought on the split of cradle vs rotation? I'm currently testing out 2-2 and have liked it so far. Additionally it opens up room for karakas and bojuka bog in the sideboard, but I am not sold on these yet.

Also thoughts on qasali pridemage vs harmonic sliver in the board. Or both?

I like the 2-2 split. And it was the configuration that LSV was using in his last video with the deck. There are fringe cases where Crop Rotating into a Dryad Arbor or Pendelhaven can be techy. Also, when you have a Cradle in play and topdeck another Cradle, you just sigh. When you have a Cradle in play and topdeck a Crop Rotation, you get happy. The Karakas out of the board is super useful especially now that Sneak Attack is everywhere. The Bojuka Bog is something of a meta choice and can be a Scavenging Ooze if you aren't afraid of Dredge.

Qasali Vs Harmonic:

Qasali is a better attacker, clearly (although if it's just been used I guess it can't attack, clearly). It can be fetched/cast for one less mana when Daze is a concern. And it can be used proactively, before they have played whatever threat you want to zap with it. But it can also be Pithing Needled.

Harmonic is your only out to Cursed Totem but is mostly a holdover from when the deck ran Mirror Entity, as Mirror Entity + Harmonic Sliver + Wirewood Symbiote allowed you to cast Naturalize over and over.

They are very, very close. I wouldn't fault you for using one over the other. If it helps, LSV runs Qasali. I run Harmonic because I own one in foil, and there is a certain player in my meta who packs Cursed Totems for me from time to time. I think generally Qasali is the more versatile card, but by a slim margin.


I was using blowout in reference to midcombo being able to rotate a tapped land out for a cradle. Karakas is seldomly a blowout against show and tell decks.

Your second point (regarding crossroads) I'm only partially following. The whole point of playing it would be not to be obliged to have to pass the turn because topdecked mana elves (think priest) are so much more relevant. If it is in your opening grip for example I would only cast it when safe (2nd turn for example, to combo turn 3 with extra mana) or in the combo turn itself. Being obliged to pass the turn with all elves tapped seems kind of rare with a playset nettle sentinel, quirion ranger and wirewood in your deck.

I would disagree about the Karakas. Show and Tell players are playing their own Karakas now, both to legend rule a Karakas in play and to beat the mirror. I know some players use Blood Moon to blank Karakas as well. They fear it.

I think the whole Crossroads thing is overly optimistic. This deck will shit on you sometimes. You will fizzle mid combo. You will Glimpse into a bunch of lands. Shit happens. I've actually won alot of games by just playing out a bunch of dudes, tapping them for whatever, and winning with a Craterhoof + 1 other attacker, since my whole team became tapped in order to get me there. If you aren't passing the turn with the whole squad tapped once in awhile, then perhaps you aren't trying to combo off early enough. Also, IRT to abusing it with Priest, most lists are only playing a single copy of that card right now. And I think if you were in a position to abuse Crossroads, you were going to win anyway. So why dilute your deck with a win-more card that is only win-more in very specific situations?

I dunno. Just don't run Crossroads. For the sake of all that is holy and fair.

[MD.Ghost]

I play with 2 Cradle and 1 Crop Rotation and maybe add a third Cradle or one more Crop Rotation. I also play with 1 Karakas and 1 Bojuka Bog, as everyone mentioned their are nice (und uncounterable) answer vs SneakShow or Reanimate (also DtB now), not every opponent will expect hate lands in an combo elves deck.

Qasali Vs Harmonic:
I play both - Qasali as a Maindeck answer (hate to lose vs random Enchantments etc.), exalted is a nice addition in grindy games.

Harmonic is in Sideboard and replaced my Viridian Shaman, because i didnt need the Wirewood Loops now and like additional Flex-Hate vs Enchantments and Artifacts. So i have 2 Green Sun's - Targets and 2 Abrupt Decay for additional Hate, virtual 8 Cards shut be enough.

Deck to Beat now - nice, i startet with Onslaught Elves and now it feels like "mainstream" we will see if this deck can compensate additional hate pieces, you aren´t the random legolas anymore :wink:

[feline]

Just since Jan-1st-2013, about 6 weeks, Grats Elves, hot dam:
Jan:
5th Matthew Nass Grand Prix Denver 2013 http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=9908&iddeck=72236
1st Riley Curran StarCityGames.com Legacy Open - Columbus http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=9905&iddeck=72208
12th John Harduvel StarCityGames.com Legacy Open - San Diego http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=9950&iddeck=72537

Feb:
10th Hayden Bedsole StarCityGames.com Legacy Open - Atlanta http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=10097&iddeck=73586
13th Michael Thompson StarCityGames.com Legacy Open - Atlanta http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=10097&iddeck=73589
24th Cody Napier StarCityGames.com Legacy Open - Atlanta http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=10097&iddeck=73599
14th John Grudzina StarCityGames.com Legacy Open - Edison http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=10138&iddeck=73873

The # of Elf decks to do this in the time frame from Oct-1st-2012 -to- Dec-31st-2012? Only 2! that's a serious increase!

[Hencules]

Elves' progress is amazing, but is it desirable? Flying under the radar seems more interesting than having a target on your back.

On the upside: yay!! Amazing deck gets credit:cool:!

[dunk]

It always was an amazing deck but I guess it needed some help from prominent players to see more play.

[.dk]

wow, made DTB. Never thought I'd see the day... great job with the finishes and showing off the power of this deck. Wonder if any of the recent performances will help shake off the "kiddie tribe" image that Elves sometimes (undeservedly) gets.

[Kyle]

To those of you that are running Mortarpod:

What matchups do you find you're bringing this in postboard? Can't think if any really where one damage and a dead Elf helps. Or what... A max of maybe 5 damage? It requires a ton of mana to work well, which means having a Heritage Druid, 3 Sentinels, a Priest of Titania, and a Gaia's Cradle to be really effective, and kills your mana producers while it's at it.

My little grey cells are having trouble wrapping my head around this one.

[danyul]

I used to run it to fight Grim Lavamancers and get damage past the occasional Moat. It was also techy in the Dredge matchup. But Abrupt Decay kills problem creatures, Harmonic Sliver/Qasali Pridemage can handle Moats, and there are a number of cards we play that can help against Dredge.

I think it's safe to cut Mortarpod for now.

[Atikin]

What kind of sideboards is everyone running? For now I feel like the maindeck is pretty much solid other than the cradle/rotation number, but the sideboard a little less so. My current sb for a 2/2 split of rotation and cradle is as follows:


1 Dryad Arbor
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Progenitus
1 Quasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze

1 Abrupt Decay
2 Mindbreak Trap

1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas

2 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Natural Order

[andrebonotto]

What kind of sideboards is everyone running? For now I feel like the maindeck is pretty much solid other than the cradle/rotation number, but the sideboard a little less so. My current sb for a 2/2 split of rotation and cradle is as follows:


1 Dryad Arbor
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Progenitus
1 Quasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze

1 Abrupt Decay
2 Mindbreak Trap

1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas

2 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Natural Order


What is the extra Dryad Arbor for?

[Atikin]

What is the extra Dryad Arbor for?

Any deck where you switch to the natural order and progenitus plan, or a deck which is good at keeping your board clean. Against such decks you usually only able to stick a guy or 2, and having access to an extra zero mana creature can be the difference between getting a progenitus or not being able to.


EDIT: Just beat the mirror on the draw on my second turn.

Hand looked like bayou, cradle, crop rotation, glimpse, quirion ranger, llanowar, and birchlore.
-He goes land quirion go.
-Drew another glimpse for the turn, land llanowar go.
-He plays a birch, returns and replays the same forest, zeniths for a heritage. Ends his turn.
-I have an extremely comfortable turn 3 win, but looking at 3 elves, one of which is heritage, and 4 cards in hand I decide to go for the turn 2 win.
-Draw nettle. Tap bayou, play glimpse, tap llanowar, play quirion, draw zenith. Return bayou to untap llanowar. Play cradle, tap for two, zenith for heritage. Tap guys for 3 green, play the second glimpse, play nettle, draw 2 dudes, rotate for cradle with my last mana, make 4 with cradle, and comfortably go off from there with double glimpse active.

[sherko7]

Can anyone give me a decent mono green list? :laugh:

[Atikin]

Can anyone give me a decent mono green list? :laugh:

This has been asked before, the search button or reading the last 2 pages is your friend. Its pretty easy to figure out just by looking at the list, as its already mostly monogreen.
Goes like this:
Take out the deathrites, replace with llanowars/fyndhorns. Take out the duels and fetches, replace with forests. Done.

[Kyle]

I used to run it to fight Grim Lavamancers and get damage past the occasional Moat. It was also techy in the Dredge matchup. But Abrupt Decay kills problem creatures, Harmonic Sliver/Qasali Pridemage can handle Moats, and there are a number of cards we play that can help against Dredge.

I think it's safe to cut Mortarpod for now.

I dropped it for a second Teeg. Seems to be working nicely, though it does shut down my big Sorceries.

[Atikin]

I dropped it for a second Teeg. Seems to be working nicely, though it does shut down my big Sorceries.

Why do you need a second? Seems like that slot could be much better used on another 1-of. I dont run mortarpod either, but I think you can find better things to put in than two teegs. The first teeg raises the amount of functional copies from 0 to 5, while the second only raises it from 5 to 6 giving you much less value out of it.

[Kyle]

Why do you need a second? Seems like that slot could be much better used on another 1-of. I dont run mortarpod either, but I think you can find better things to put in than two teegs. The first teeg raises the amount of functional copies from 0 to 5, while the second only raises it from 5 to 6 giving you much less value out of it.

Currently running:

1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Harmonic Sliver
1x Viridian Shaman
4x Cabal Therapy
3x Abrupt Decay
2x Gaddock Teeg
1x Wilt-Leaf Liege
1x Natural Order
1x Progenitus

Can't think of anything else the sideboard really needs. My meta hasn't needed Mortarpod once, though I understood the original merit of it. Teeg shuts down Miracles, which is why he's worth two in my opinion.