[Deck] Elves Combo [Archive] - Page 15

th3 w1z4rd

06-13-2013, 06:44 PM

Asuming that your opponent let glimpse resolve, let you draw your deck and generate 20+ mana unmolested to ENABLE Emrakul IS winterwonderland. If you take that scenarios as given it's easy to see that you can bait several Counterspells with NO or GSZ (for x=8) before you either stick One of those or hardcast One (of the up to 2) Hoofs.

As mentioned, Stifle + Perish just NEVER happens. Never saw a deck running both tbh.

Engineered Plague is a joke for Nettle, Symbiote, DRS, GSZ->Arbor and NO.

Priest and Archdruid ARE affected by boardsweepers because of their summoning sickness. Weren't you talking about immunity to boardsweepers before to support your thesis towards Emrakul?? This IS an issue. Costing 2 or 3 mana for the Glimpse-combo is another. Ignoring these simple facts AND calling other dear community members morons in the same post is pathetic.

You don't need Glimpse to play Emrakul. Also, taxing effects. My meta has more than 1 MUD deck sometimes. Without Priest or Archdruid, Lodestone Golem = loss. With them, I Glimpse combo'd through Lodestone Golem, didn't even bother killing it, and played Emrakul. Emrakul also doesn't care if all your elves are tapped when you play him. Hoof is useless in that regard.

HoneyT

06-13-2013, 06:47 PM

Or let tournament results speak for themselves. So far, I've seen clones from GP Denver & CFB's list keep surfacing. I am not of the opinion this is the most optimal list, so I guess I have some tournaments to go to! :)

Cloudstone Curio, Eternal Witness, Primal Command anyone??

Absolutflipz

06-13-2013, 06:59 PM

Cloudstone Curio, Eternal Witness, Primal Command anyone??

Modern?

I fear it's too slow, and there's no reason to make elves even slower with decks like Storm, TinFins, and even SnT capable of being a turn (or two with storm, tin-fins) faster.

Not sure why people aren't running at least 1 copy of Beck//Call. I really like it as additional glimpses, aka must-counter spells. If you're playing 4 cradles, as you should, the extra mana becomes irrelevant and most of the time they're going to counter your first NO/Glimpse-effect, meangin you'll have more lands in play (or mana sources) by the time you try again. That has been my experience, at least. I have 4glimpse, 2beck, 2 NO (cut 1 as I'm down to just 1 target in the 1x Hoof).

Utilizing Beck also has let me cut Regal Force from the deck as uneccessary. My creature count is at 29. 16 Lands (17 if you include arbor, but I put within creature count).

HoneyT

06-13-2013, 07:04 PM

Modern?

I fear it's too slow, and there's no reason to make elves even slower with decks like Storm, TinFins, and even SnT capable of being a turn (or two with storm, tin-fins) faster.

Sarcasm actually :) though it used to be a thing in Legacy back in the day.

Dice_Box

06-13-2013, 07:47 PM

Beck I like, but I fear it is an all in approach to the deck. You're going for broke and if you do not have the right build counters will rip you apart. But this is a build I like and come tax return time, it is one I feel I will be running.

I am interested to know what builds people come up with. I am going to play around today on Cockatrice with it but I feel with DRS, Birchlore and some Dual lands we might be able to fire this off on a G/B with a U and W splash. I would take Ruric Thar out of the deck to cut out red totally.

I am trying to think about what blue adds to the deck as well as sideboard options but the deck is tuned very well already. My view though is Beck builds will have to be tuned differently, for one I think Birchlore is going to be of far more value in a Beck build and DRS will be an auto include. Summoner's Pact too I think is of greater value in this build than it is in the normal one. Now I am just thinking out loud. Can anyone shoot me some idea's?

Tangente

06-13-2013, 08:05 PM

Few thoughts about Beck//Call in Elves had Matt Nass in this article: http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/matt-nass/spoiler-spotlight-beck-call/

Lemnear

06-14-2013, 01:46 AM

You don't need Glimpse to play Emrakul. Also, taxing effects. My meta has more than 1 MUD deck sometimes. Without Priest or Archdruid, Lodestone Golem = loss. With them, I Glimpse combo'd through Lodestone Golem, didn't even bother killing it, and played Emrakul. Emrakul also doesn't care if all your elves are tapped when you play him. Hoof is useless in that regard.

No, you don't need glimpse with Priest or Archdruid to play Emrakul but as mentioned, both Elves require you to Pass the turn opening you up for global removal.

The biggest concern vs. MUD is chalice of the Void and both elven concepts suffer from it. I have no clue why you think a Golem-taxed Archdruid (costing 4) in a deck with a very limited number of lands is a gamebreaker. You can still NO off a Cradle or 1/1 Elves for Hoof turn 2/3 and stomp the MUD player with it in 2-3 swings. If they block the 2nd Hoof attack and sacrifice their Golem by blocking you can still follow up with Glimpse or another NO (2nd Hoof 4 example) and run away with the game.

In short: a 3cc creature makes no significant impact against Lodestone Golem afaik

Few thoughts about Beck//Call in Elves had Matt Nass in this article: http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/matt-nass/spoiler-spotlight-beck-call/

I can't follow the logic behind cutting NO -> Regal as a draw engine and only Running 3 NO from the start for that interaction, just to add a off-Color solution to the deck

Julian23

06-14-2013, 05:59 AM

The NO-less version is pretty much all-in on Glimpse. That's why I prefer having Natural Order and Craterhoof Behemoth.

People say you don't have to Glimpse first to play Emrakul because Priests will easily generate 15 mana. True. But that doesn't put Emrakul into your hand in the first place. Craterhoof however is a 5- or even 6-of AND turable with GSZ. Emrakul however has to be drawn naturally. You can get there with Visionary+Symbiote but at that point you would have easily won with NO way earlier.

Also, don't underestimate the speed NO Behemoth brings to the deck. It requires minimal ressources to set up a kill, which is huge.

But as I said earlier, Emrakul vs NO is just a proxy discussion. What we are actually talking about here is the use of Priest+Archdruid. To me, I much more prefer the speed and resilience of not having them.

Lemnear

06-14-2013, 08:23 AM

Lobo

06-14-2013, 09:31 AM

The Problem is the pure dimension the proxy discussion has reached between a green multi-combo deck feat. Nettle/Heritage mana-engine, Symbiote/Visionary draw-engine, 1cc-creatures chaining Glimpse into a Super-Ancestral, Quirion/Symbiote/DRS machine-gun and the Cradle/NO/GSZ/Hoof Ultra-redundant kill ... and a pass-the-turn Timmy.dec which plans to tap 1-2 Archdruids/Priests to put the games No.1 Fatty from hand into play.

The only reason both decks are somehow discussed in the same thread is due to a common creature type. Lol

Yup. I feel the latter style of deck reached an admittedly elegant pinnacle in 2011 with David Vo's list (http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/deck/683) from SCG Atlanta. Elves has come a long way since then, with many tournament showings to prove it. To advocate a return to a mono-green 2011 list is akin to urging RUG players to drop Delver, or Reanimators to do away with Griselbrand. That we in this thread must simultaneously endure barrages of insults is a real shame.

Daniel, we await salvation by your hand.

Dice_Box

06-14-2013, 09:43 AM

Who here runs Archdruids and Priests? I am interested to see the list. I myself have a single Archdruid in the sideboard along with a Elvish Champion for dealing with E Plage. Thinking of pulling Druid out for another Champion for BUG and GU Delver matchups.

danyul

06-14-2013, 11:02 AM

OMG. Lost all my text. I hate life. CTRL+( instead of Shift+( just ruined my day.
Okay. I'll get to the point.

Primer is coming. Been busy. Real life sucks. Expect it Sunday

Discussion lately has been good. Lots of good points have been brought up. I don't think an updated primer will fix the root problem here which is...

Elves is still seen as "starter" deck for newer players to just pick up and bring to a tournament and "compete" with, but that is no longer the case. Carsten Kotter has a new article up (http://www.starcitygames.com/article/26338_Legacy-Intro-Decks.html) where he discusses some really easy to pick-up-and-play decks (regardless of budget) for people looking to get into Legacy. Notice how Elves is not on that list. That is because it is actually somewhat difficult to play. The deck can be very confusing for newer players and even experience ones. The interactions are many and that creates lots of opportunities to make game-losing mistakes in a format that is already cutthroat and unforgiving. Regardless, newer players continue to flock to it because, for the most part, it is cheaper to build than all the crazy blue decks and people love Elves.

So we have newer players, perhaps tournament neophytes, and hardcore tournament grinders who just want to tune the beast into the tightest 75 possible, all hanging out in the same thread talking about almost all the same cards. And that creates some tension as far as what people are trying to accomplish and the discussions each group is trying to have. LOL and then we have Koby who loves him some Emrakul. And that's okay too!

I am not saying one is more legitimate than the other or that the problem can be solved by doing X or Y. But, from my perspective, this is what is creating the majority of the disharmony here. But perhaps that's the case for other deck threads too? I dunno. I don't really read other threads. And this issue that I am chalking up to New Player Vs Tournament Grinder might just be a "People are different, you bastard!" issue. And that's perfectly okay. Um, I may have gotten distracted somewhere. I dunno how this turned into a life talk. You kids are nice. Do your homework and try real hard and everything will be okay for you.
--
In other news, some of the discussion has convinced me to try a second Birchlore Ranger. I'll be cutting Priest of Titania for him (going to zero!) and trying that out at a big tournament on Saturday. We'll see how it goes.

igri_is_a_bk

06-14-2013, 11:19 AM

In other news, some of the discussion has convinced me to try a second Birchlore Ranger. I'll be cutting Priest of Titania for him (going to zero!) and trying that out at a big tournament on Saturday. We'll see how it goes.

I've never seen more hype around Chalice of the Void than right now. I expected it in STL (played it three times in nine rounds) and I would expect it to rise even more in popularity going forward. Please, guys, heed this warning: play Viridian Shaman!

Dice_Box

06-14-2013, 11:27 AM

I've never seen more hype around Chalice of the Void than right now. I expected it in STL (played it three times in nine rounds) and I would expect it to rise even more in popularity going forward. Please, guys, heed this warning: play Viridian Shaman!
Zealot is good too. I see no reason you cannot have both Rangers and Art hate. I have 2 Rangers and a Zealot main deck. Can be done.

Edit, Reason for my choice on Zealot is that I like the option of playing the card early when the other players counters have all been used and later firing him off against whatever Stoneforge has fetched. Shaman is a sledgehammer, effective but loud, fast and must work now. Zealot is more of a precision instrument that you have sit in wait but risk someone else having an answer for. I am more than willing to admit that against Void Sharman is the better tool, my targets locally are Countertop and Stoneblade decks.

danyul

06-14-2013, 11:36 AM

Shaman is the preferred MD hate because 1) it doesn't die to an E.Plague and 2) you can bounce it with Wirewood Symbiote to rebuy its effect. But yes, I'll keep that in mind going into Saturday. Now I gotta cut something to find room...

igri_is_a_bk

06-14-2013, 11:45 AM

Koby

06-14-2013, 11:48 AM

and then we have Koby who loves him some Emrakul. And that's okay too!

True story.

It's for that same reason, I may want to try Harmonic Sliver over Pridemage in the sideboard. I didn't really use Pridemage to any meaningful degree at my last tournament, but it could be a relevant swap.

I've recently made this shift, partly because it works better against S&T decks and forces the Omni decks to have the Cunning Wish in order to be able to win. Aside from that, it's functionally equivalent to Pridemage for the purpose of destroying permanents. Note that it's weaker against Umezawa's Jitte since the effect is Sorcery speed compared to QPM's instant activation.

Dice_Box

06-14-2013, 12:14 PM

Koby

06-14-2013, 12:38 PM

Oh, before I forget. Does anyone have any idea's for beating UR Delver? I played against it yesterday about 20 times in a row. It was a brutal match up. If anyone has advice I would like it. My go to was to try and pull out NO/Pro as fast as I could after a while. It was the only thing I had that worked. Even then there was counters to deal with.

I'm guessing that the UR delver matchup is more defined by Delver + countermagic and some spot removal moreso than just burning you out.

If that's the case, NO/Pro is unlikely to help here, as even Progenitus is too slow against burn, and exposing Natural Order against their Daze/Spell Pierce/Force of Will pushes you more into losing board presence. I recommend you focus on beatdown/aggro and attempting to put a Scavenging Ooze on the field. Once he's in, you can start to regain life and make a big threat.

Dice_Box

06-14-2013, 12:44 PM

Well he had Lightning bolts and chain lightnings, as far as in know they where all his burn outside of Grim. Thing is, I bought most of the elf deck I own from him so he knows it better than most. He very very rarely went at me with burn, preferring to burn out all my creatures that may have at any time been a threat and killing me with beat down. I did board in Ooze but once he knew that he would gun for it. Also not having any real mana Elves and losing Gaea to wasteland, it just felt like an uphill fight every time.

Koby

06-14-2013, 12:48 PM

In the Burn matchup, it really depends on how the opponent plays against you.

If they burn your creatures, that gives you a lot of time to get a solid Glimpse or NO/fattie going. Save Ooze until you can activate it several times to both regain life and get it out of burn range. Timing is also important, as you're going to need to distract your opponent with many dorks so you run down his options, then slam an Ooze and make it a 5/5 or 6/6 immediately.

Admittedly, it's easier against a mono-red Burn since they don't have countermagic.

danyul

06-14-2013, 12:57 PM

I have a couple friends who play UR Delver all the time. I have found the matchup very favorable. Because of the nature of their deck, it can be difficult for them to both 1) burn all of our dudes and 2) keep enough cards in hand to fight our Glimpse/NO. That said, Scavenging Ooze is a great help out of the board. And when you do finally NO>Hoof them, it is usually from a precariously low life total. Note: If all your dudes need to not be summoning sick in order to make mana, that definitely makes the matchup worse. The closest and scariest games happen when they just ignore my board and aim fire at my face. When racing, we are about .5-1 turns faster than them. If they just keep blasting our dudes, well, we run more dudes than they have burn, usually. And resolving Visionary can keep us ahead in cards. Your mileage may vary.

nudon

06-14-2013, 01:15 PM

Exactly. The fact Shaman stays in play after it has done its business is a big deal. It can be picked up with Symbiote, like danyul said, and it can tap for mana with Heritage later on.

It's for that same reason, I may want to try Harmonic Sliver over Pridemage in the sideboard. I didn't really use Pridemage to any meaningful degree at my last tournament, but it could be a relevant swap.

I recently cut priest for shaman too. Zealot costs 4 mana (including activation) instead of 3. Shaman also beats cursed totem whereas zealot does not. Being able to flashback cabal therapy to it is also a nice bonus (i.e. against belcher, stoneblade).

nudon

06-14-2013, 01:20 PM

UR burn hasn't been a problem for me either. The only problematic card is grim lavamancer. I bring in abrupt decay to solve that problem. As stated above, scavenging ooze is a gamebreaker too.

andrebonotto

06-14-2013, 01:41 PM

I'm guessing that the UR delver matchup is more defined by Delver + countermagic and some spot removal moreso than just burning you out.

If that's the case, NO/Pro is unlikely to help here, as even Progenitus is too slow against burn, and exposing Natural Order against their Daze/Spell Pierce/Force of Will pushes you more into losing board presence. I recommend you focus on beatdown/aggro and attempting to put a Scavenging Ooze on the field. Once he's in, you can start to regain life and make a big threat.

I too found out that Ooze is a MVP here.

Koby, do you side out all of your NOs on this MU? (And what about the fatties?)

Taking my list on my last post (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?17168-Deck-Elves-Combo&p=730337&viewfull=1#post730337) as reference, what do you think of the following SB plan against UR Delver:

-2 NO
-1 Progenitus (he was maindeck)

+1 Ooze (this is Ooze #2, since Ooze #1 was maindeck)
+2 Abrupt Decay (against Delvers and/or Lavamancers)

(Note: I play a Crop Rotation MD, but I don't know if I cut the Needles from my SB - what I plan to do -, if there's still anything better to side in for the CR)

danyul

06-14-2013, 01:45 PM

Even Grim Lavamancer isn't an autoloss. It can actually be difficult for them to keep the graveyard stocked sometimes. And if you can stick a Deathrite Shaman (dream scenario, I know) you can slow the bleeding a bit by forcing them to eat out of their GY at inopportune times, or limit the amount of gy fuel they have access to. They have to be very smart about what they spend their burn spells on.

@andre

I would go actually go -1 Visionary, -2nd Hoof (or Regal Force), -2nd Crop Rotation, +NO, +Prog, + Scooze. This obviously favors a different playstyle. I like the Prog because sometimes they bring in boardsweepers out of the side. I want inevitability on the table. I don't want to waste a turn and some mana by trying to shoot their guys with Abrupt Decay.

Koby

06-14-2013, 02:53 PM

I too found out that Ooze is a MVP here.

Koby, do you side out all of your NOs on this MU? (And what about the fatties?)

Taking my list on my last post (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?17168-Deck-Elves-Combo&p=730337&viewfull=1#post730337) as reference, what do you think of the following SB plan against UR Delver:

(Note: I play a Crop Rotation MD, but I don't know if I cut the Needles from my SB - what I plan to do -, if there's still anything better to side in for the CR)

Abrupt Decay seems unneeded, unless you anticipate Pyrostatic Pillar being a problem. Against this matchup I would recommend -1 Heritage Druid, -1 Elvish Visionary, -1 Regal Force; + Scavenging Ooze +X Thorn of Amethyst (if you have them) +x Thalia. Slowing them down with resistors is pretty good considering the low creature count they have.

nudon

06-14-2013, 03:22 PM

Koby

06-14-2013, 05:05 PM

I definitely agree thorns and thalias are great against burn. However, most standard elf lists don't currently run those in the board. I would board out viridian shaman, 1 heritage druid, and 1 regal force for 2x decay and 1 ooze. NO->prog feels a bit slow to me because you still give your opponent two turns (unlikely that they'll be under 10) to aim all their burn/lavamancers/delvers at you. Also, it's no guarantee you'll be able to resolve NO with the dazes, FoWs, and pierces/flusterstorms they run.

I think this is an error on the recent lists. Elves has good game against a variety of fair strategies and it doesn't need much padding to turn those matches into wins. Where it has trouble is against other Combo decks. The SB resistors help against spell-based mid-range (like EsperBlade) decks too.

Dice_Box

06-14-2013, 05:48 PM

I must agree with this, after piloting goblins against Elves I almost felt like it was an auto loss. Games against decks that play fair are to the favour of the elf player. Thinking about that I might change up my sideboard to remove Champion.

Lobo

06-14-2013, 06:35 PM

I think this is an error on the recent lists. Elves has good game against a variety of fair strategies and it doesn't need much padding to turn those matches into wins. Where it has trouble is against other Combo decks. The SB resistors help against spell-based mid-range (like EsperBlade) decks too.

Elf decks these days take advantage of the black splash to board in Cabal Therapy in place of Thorn/Thalia. This is in addition to usually 2 Mindbreak Traps. Contemporary elf lists are stronger against combo than they used to be, which is part of what has provided for their recent success. Instead of trying to bog them down, we just ruin their hand and then watch them try to dig for another win condition. In such cases we usually get to our win condition first.

Of course if combo goes off turn 1 they still beat us, and it remains a hairier matchup than against fair decks. But this has always been true for any non-blue deck like elves.

igri_is_a_bk

06-14-2013, 06:48 PM

Koby

06-14-2013, 07:26 PM

Elf decks these days take advantage of the black splash to board in Cabal Therapy in place of Thorn/Thalia. This is in addition to usually 2 Mindbreak Traps. Contemporary elf lists are stronger against combo than they used to be, which is part of what has provided for their recent success. Instead of trying to bog them down, we just ruin their hand and then watch them try to dig for another win condition. In such cases we usually get to our win condition first.

Of course if combo goes off turn 1 they still beat us, and it remains a hairier matchup than against fair decks. But this has always been true for any non-blue deck like elves.

...

I'm well aware of that strategy considering West Coast Degeneracy has developed it going back as far as 2011 to fight all the combo.
Example #1 (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=5983&iddeck=43372) - oh hey look that's me!
Example #2 (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=6688&iddeck=48489) - oh hey look that's Joe!
Example #3 (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=8129&iddeck=59274) - oh hey look another SoCal player!
Example #4 (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=8476&iddeck=61763) - oh hey look another SoCal player!

The newest incarnation has also kept the black splash in running Deathrite Shaman. I piloted a non-Natural Order list to a 6-2 finish at the SCG LA Invitational last December. I'm no stranger to Cabal Therapy, and realize that it's not enough on its own. Thorns are better than Mindbreak Trap against every deck that doesn't kill you on turn 1; which should be a miracle if you win. ANT/TES/Tin Fins already have ways to disable Mindbreak Trap so it is not as useful there (Silence, discard). Ritual based Storm already knows to play around such a spell too. Including Mindbreak Trap is both lazy and stupid.

Koby

06-14-2013, 07:32 PM

Yes, play 4 Therapy and 2 MBT, but you can also fit Thorn in your sideboard. You just don't play Decay, which was the easiest cut from my board.

During my third round at STL, I didn't bring in Bog against ANT, but do you guys think I should have? It felt like I'd be playing for very small percentages so I didn't. From this sb...

4 Cabal Therapy
2 Mindbreak Trap
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Sylvan Library
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Natural Order
1 Progenitus

...I brought in the top 8 cards.

Bog is pretty weak with only Crop Rotation to tutor for it. I don't think it's a useful sideboard card. A second Scavenging Ooze is more worthwhile. Sylvan Library is likely also a wasted slot, and especially as a singleton. While it's bonkers insane when you draw it; that assumes too much has gone wrong with the game to make it relevant. Both of these slots can be upgraded to more useful slots. Thorns is definitely appealing in that it can be useful against BG/x and Miracle decks alive without worrying about sweepers. Thalia should likely replace the 2nd and 4th copy of Thorn of Amethysts to provide a variety of resisting effects.

kingtk3

06-15-2013, 07:10 AM

...
The newest incarnation has also kept the black splash in running Deathrite Shaman. I piloted a non-Natural Order list to a 6-2 finish at the SCG LA Invitational last December.
...

What your maindeck looked like without NO? I'm curious because I would like to sleeve elves but I don't own NO and I'm interessed in the downside/upside between the lists.

I'm sorry if it's already been discussed but in the last few pages I didn't find any reference.

Thank you!

Dice_Box

06-15-2013, 10:29 AM

If you click on "Example #1" in his post you will get one of his lists without NO.

igri_is_a_bk

06-15-2013, 11:21 AM

Bog is pretty weak with only Crop Rotation to tutor for it. I don't think it's a useful sideboard card. A second Scavenging Ooze is more worthwhile. Sylvan Library is likely also a wasted slot, and especially as a singleton. While it's bonkers insane when you draw it; that assumes too much has gone wrong with the game to make it relevant. Both of these slots can be upgraded to more useful slots. Thorns is definitely appealing in that it can be useful against BG/x and Miracle decks alive without worrying about sweepers. Thalia should likely replace the 2nd and 4th copy of Thorn of Amethysts to provide a variety of resisting effects.

Don't you ever have issues with the degenerate decks if you only use Ooze as hate? If we hope to win, most of the time those matches are going to three games and we're on the draw for the third game, which is a scary proposition if you can't get hate out until turn two with an accelerator and activate it on turn three. Or you draw it naturally and get one activation out of it before you give them three turns. I'm not attached to Bog at all, but something faster than strictly Ooze looks necessary. Ravenous Trap is basically the card I'm thinking about right now.

I apologize, but I don't follow what you're saying in bold. I get that one Thorn and one Thalia looks good, but what are you saying about the 4th copy of that effect?

nudon

06-15-2013, 11:29 AM

Thorns are better than Mindbreak Trap against every deck that doesn't kill you on turn 1; which should be a miracle if you win. ANT/TES/Tin Fins already have ways to disable Mindbreak Trap so it is not as useful there (Silence, discard). Ritual based Storm already knows to play around such a spell too. Including Mindbreak Trap is both lazy and stupid.

In my previous tournament experience, I beat ANT 2-0 on the back of therapy and eventual topdeck gsz->teeg (didn't draw MbT). However, I'm not opposed to swapping traps out for thorns due to their applications in other matchups. My concern is with those turn 1 decks you refer to. We can definitely beat belcher by outracing EtW or blowing up their belcher by tutoring for v. shaman/pridemage/sliver. How often does ANT/TES/Tin Fins attempt to go off turn 1 since we'll be on the draw for at least 1 sb game?

nudon

06-15-2013, 11:34 AM

Don't you ever have issues with the degenerate decks if you only use Ooze as hate? If we hope to win, most of the time those matches are going to three games and we're on the draw for the third game, which is a scary proposition if you can't get hate out until turn two with an accelerator and activate it on turn three. Or you draw it naturally and get one activation out of it before you give them three turns. I'm not attached to Bog at all, but something faster than strictly Ooze looks necessary. Ravenous Trap is basically the card I'm thinking about right now.

I apologize, but I don't follow what you're saying in bold. I get that one Thorn and one Thalia looks good, but what are you saying about the 4th copy of that effect?

With two crop rotations, I'll typically board in bog too but I'm haven't played enough games with it to know for sure if that's correct. Koby is saying to have a 2-2 split to hedge against things like cabal therapy and echoing truth.

Koby

06-15-2013, 12:15 PM

Quick n dirty SCG Invitational Report for the Legacy Portion!

Reference list:

4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Llanowar Elf
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Heritage Druid
2 Birchlore Rangers
2 Quirion Ranger
4 Elvish Visionary
1 Priest of Titania
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Elvish Archdruid

2 Regal Forge
4 Wirewood Symbiote
1 Emrakul

4 Glimpse of Nature
4 GSZ
1 Crop Rotation

4 Gaea's Cradle
1 Dryad Arbor
7 Fetch
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
3 Forest

SB:
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Thalia
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Harmonic Sliver

Round 5 - Hive Mind (2-0) - making 10 mana and 3 of any color can help. Won with beatdown however.
Round 6 - Merfolk (2-0) - No FoW on Glimpse, so that was quick.
Round 7 - Shardless BUG (GerryT) (1-2) - Combo G1, grind out G2 and lost, grind out G3 and lost to Diabolic Machine (A.Visions x3 each a turn apart, missed on a short Glimpse chain into land land runner)
Round 8 - Jund (2-1) - Combo, grind, grind when opponent flooded and beatdown with Regal Forces.
Round 13 - BUG w/ Bob (1-2) - Grind and lost to Deathrite Shaman superiority. Combo G2. Grind and lost to Deathrite Shaman superiority.
Round 14 - RIP Miracles (2-1) - Oddly not at all hard anymore thanks to Deathrite Shaman. He gets Moat out, and I cast Emrakul. Did I mention that I missed the Extra turn trigger facing lethal damage? Ya, I was that guy! (opponent scooped tho). G2 get Angel beatdown. G3 grind with beatdown and DRS.
Round 15 - Maverick (2-1) - DRS > Maverick, esp with all the untap effects we have.
Round 16 - NO BUG (2-1) - DRS can grind it out, and since they play a lot of spells, it makes it easy to clock them.

What your maindeck looked like without NO? I'm curious because I would like to sleeve elves but I don't own NO and I'm interessed in the downside/upside between the lists.

I'm sorry if it's already been discussed but in the last few pages I didn't find any reference.

Thank you!

If you click back on the original post from my quote you can see the list I can and feedback on it.

In regards to Thorn/Thalia split: Thalia is pretty much a freebie. While te effect and card type of Thorn is better (artifact) it gets progressively harder to cast multiple copies. Thalia still only costs 2 under Thorns while providing more resistance. If you want to run multiple thorns, every even copy should be swapped with Thalia to provide diversity.

Lobo

06-15-2013, 12:30 PM

The newest incarnation has also kept the black splash in running Deathrite Shaman. I piloted a non-Natural Order list to a 6-2 finish at the SCG LA Invitational last December. I'm no stranger to Cabal Therapy, and realize that it's not enough on its own. Thorns are better than Mindbreak Trap against every deck that doesn't kill you on turn 1; which should be a miracle if you win. ANT/TES/Tin Fins already have ways to disable Mindbreak Trap so it is not as useful there (Silence, discard). Ritual based Storm already knows to play around such a spell too. Including Mindbreak Trap is both lazy and stupid.

Lazy and stupid, eh? I see you and The Wizard are cut from the same cloth. Shall we agree to drop the Internet bravado and adopt a more constructive tone?

I'll take a Thorn/Thalia on the board over a Trap in the hand any day, but the appeal of Trap is that it can disrupt before turn two, and moreover without any investiture of mana. Sure, the opponent could always Silence or Duress it, but they don't always have their answer, in which case they have to dig for it. Any card that effectively says "your plan is on hold, and in order to find your answer you'll have to sabotage your own plan (by wasting cantrips that would otherwise contribute to a fatal storm count)" is worth consideration.

I'm completely open to the idea that contemporary elf lists should make room in the board for Thorn; it is a great card, after all. I also think Thorn is more appealing in an old-style non-NO list, since it runs fewer/cheaper non-creature spells and produces more mana. But to dismiss MBT out of hand, as though it were obviously bad, strikes me as strange—especially given that you seem to be evaluating it by criteria appropriate for your own regressive list, rather than the current LSV/Nass list that, despite your contempt for it, has met with such striking and recent success. The LSV/Nass list is not infallible, but to deride it without care or respect seems brash.

Dice_Box

06-15-2013, 01:07 PM

Mindbreak is not stupid, hell against some storm decks it is the only thing we have. I mean from my experience against ANT, they are going to try and fire off asap, they are more willing to push themselves to go off turn two once they realize you can win turn three. Now if they were on the play, you get one turn. One. Now unless you have the absolute perfect hand with Spirit guides and Thorn, you're in trouble without an answer. Now you can go for Leyline of Sanctity as an answer or trap. Nothing else has the speed needed.

Now you might say Therapy will help save you, I disagree. It is a 3 in one shot in the dark. You are not guaranteed a second turn to play a creature to flash it back and your first shot has to hit the money. So what are you going to name? The kill card? Ad? LED? A tutor? Its an imprecise art. Trap gives you a one stop shop to hit and get some time, the issue is that you might have to take a bad hand to keep it. In that case they have the chance to get back into the game but I look at it this way, you hit them a few times, get them to say 12 to 14 life and suddenly Ad Nauseam is not as an appealing a card to play as it was turn 2. That is assuming they get it.

Just my thoughts. Also Trap is one of our go to cards playing Goblins too. We also splash white for Thalia but trap is still a go to.

Koby

06-15-2013, 01:20 PM

Lazy and stupid, eh? I see you and The Wizard are cut from the same cloth. Shall we agree to drop the Internet bravado and adopt a more constructive tone?

I'll take a Thorn/Thalia on the board over a Trap in the hand any day, but the appeal of Trap is that it can disrupt before turn two, and moreover without any investiture of mana. Sure, the opponent could always Silence or Duress it, but they don't always have their answer, in which case they have to dig for it. Any card that effectively says "your plan is on hold, and in order to find your answer you'll have to sabotage your own plan (by wasting cantrips that would otherwise contribute to a fatal storm count)" is worth consideration.

I'm completely open to the idea that contemporary elf lists should make room in the board for Thorn; it is a great card, after all. I also think Thorn is more appealing in an old-style non-NO list, since it runs fewer/cheaper non-creature spells and produces more mana. But to dismiss MBT out of hand, as though it were obviously bad, strikes me as strange—especially given that you seem to be evaluating it by criteria appropriate for your own regressive list, rather than the current LSV/Nass list that, despite your contempt for it, has met with such striking and recent success. The LSV/Nass list is not infallible, but to deride it without care or respect seems brash.

Losing before turn 2 has always been a known issue with Elves. Does it make sense to attempt to fix it by running two copies of a card that has very narrow application in the sideboard? I don't think this is a good use of sideboard slots; nor does it achieve the effect desired. If you lose on turn 1 then so be it. Try to get them next game. Like danyul stated, it's likely better to build the deck to beat the majority of the metagame much easier rather than try to focus on a specific matchup.

At first we were leaning towards Thorn of Amethyst, but then we realized that turn 2 disruption may not be fast enough. In addition, we already had Therapy for games that went past turn one. What we really wanted was some assurance that games would get that far, and Mindbreak Trap was perfect for that.

And so it was written in stone that every NO Elves combo list shall now include 2 MBT in their sideboard because Matt Nass played it there. I can't begin to count how many Elves sideboards have been a direct copy of this list; in spite of MBT being an underperformer. If you want a card that can do something on turn 1 play Silence. It has the actual benefit of being able to be proactive against a S&T deck too.

The Europeans understand this as much, and they have more combo representation than we do in the USA.
Example - Bernd Fritsch - BOM 7 Trial (http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=4905&d=228330) - 148 players
Example - Riley Curran - Top 8 SCG Open (http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=4538&d=226318) - 326 players

Lemnear

06-15-2013, 03:12 PM

Funny that you mention Bernd and his Vengevine Elves I got hated for mentioning as an alternative for the NO plan...

Lobo

06-15-2013, 04:24 PM

I don't see why those examples should strengthen the case for the inclusion of Thorn in the board, since neither of those players ran it at all. It seems good old Cabal Therapy did most of the work for them, while the rest of their flex slots went toward graveyard hate and anti-SnT (i.e. Karakas). In other words, they just weren't as worried about ANT or TES. Had they been, it's not clear that they would have preferred Thorn to Trap, much less that they'd have been right to do so.

Surgical Extraction is an interesting choice, though in my Reanimator-heavy meta I lean more toward Faerie Macabre or Leyline of the Void.

Julian23

06-15-2013, 05:33 PM

Bernd mentioned though that he feels it's time for him to eventually part ways with Vengines as he feels NO is superior.

nudon

06-15-2013, 06:07 PM

Koby

06-15-2013, 06:34 PM

These decks certainly have the capacity for turn 1 kills; but the frequency of which they occur might not be enough to warrant t0 answers to it.

Lemnear

06-15-2013, 07:19 PM

Sorry, if a TES player is unable to goldfish during his first 3 turns he simply can't play the deck. Unless the pilot mulled into oblivion the deck goldfishes to a 100% during the first 3 turns. Turn 1 ~ 20%, Turn 2 ~ 40% ... gutfeeling

phazonmutant

06-15-2013, 07:47 PM

What percentage of the time does ANT/TES/Tin Fins go off t1, t2, and t3+? I don't know the exact numbers since I haven't played against those decks much but this knowledge should provide better insight into whether t0 hate is necessary. If the % is low enough, I think replacing 2x traps with thorn/thalias might be reasonable.

As with Lemnear, I don't have actual data, but I can give some gut feelings from playing with/against the decks a lot. I'm assuming this is undisrupted - DRS can be problematic, Cabal Therapy is a thing.

Deck
T1 %
T2 %
T3 %
T4+ %

ANT
5
25
35
35

TES
10
40
30
20

TinFins
15
45
20
20

I'm a little more conservative with my numbers. But keep in mind that if all of your interaction comes down turn 2, all decks have lots of time to interact with it. It can be Duressed and TinFins and TES can chant-walk you.

Tangente

06-16-2013, 03:54 AM

Is Chalice of the Void for zero viable sideboard answer against ANT/TES? I don't like Thorn of Amethyst because it's rather slow.

phazonmutant

06-16-2013, 04:07 AM

Is Chalice of the Void for zero viable sideboard answer against ANT/TES? I don't like Thorn of Amethyst because it's rather slow.

Eh. It's ok. It's probably better against TES because it has more artifact mana and doesn't have Cabal Ritual as another +3. Some hands can just naturally play through it, but I could see Chalice buying a turn or two.

I just think that if you're going to bring in hate, don't pussyfoot around it. Play a pile of Thalias and/or Mindbreak Traps. 2 hate cards is not enough given how bad the matchup is for Elves, but I'm not sure if there's room in the sideboard. If you really want to beat storm, bring in different types of hate to overload them.

Zombie

06-16-2013, 05:40 AM

I think Traps are just overall pretty bad. Need to grab a couple Thalias or Thorns to play so the anti-combo toolbox would be: 4 Therapy, 2 resistor, Teeg, (Ruric). Feels pretty good on paper, IMHO. Could even get a third resistor at the expense of Bojuka Bog.

Bobmans

06-16-2013, 07:32 AM

It got about time Elves Combo got to be DTB.

@Zombie (or just in general): you think that Ruric Thar, the Unbowed is a strong option anti-combo (engine based)?

MD.Ghost

06-16-2013, 08:26 AM

It got about time Elves Combo got to be DTB.

@Zombie (or just in general): you think that Ruric Thar, the Unbowed is a strong option anti-combo (engine based)?

As i mentioned before, a resolved Ruric Thar is mostly an auto win, because the only answer is chain of vapor and it isn´t much room for additional cantrips or turns, because each other spell or Ruric Attack means also 6 extra damage. But - if you chose Ruric as a sideboard answer, Gaddock Teeg is much better (less setup, manacoast etc.). A Sideboard Ruric Thar doesn´t matter, if you still lose game 1 against Stormcombo. If you wan´t a higher game 1 odds, you shut include 1 Gaddock Teeg (as Koby mentioned) or 1 Ruric as an maindeck option. There are pros and cons either way.

My current Stormcombo -Answers are:

Maindeck :
1 Ruric Thar

Sideboard:
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Mindbreak Trap
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Thorn of Amethyst
(1 Bojuka Bog - Grave Hate against Past in Flames)

Works pretty good so far, i rarely lose against Stormcombos. Mindbreak Trap is the weakest Slot, but i included it after i lost 2 tournament matches against high tide, because after spells like Time Spiral, you still have a chance to gain free a disruption piece.

--------

@DecktoBeat - Good to be back, but now you can also expect more Hate against our elves.

andrebonotto

06-16-2013, 09:09 AM

I would go actually go -1 Visionary, -2nd Hoof (or Regal Force), -2nd Crop Rotation, +NO, +Prog, + Scooze. This obviously favors a different playstyle. I like the Prog because sometimes they bring in boardsweepers out of the side. I want inevitability on the table. I don't want to waste a turn and some mana by trying to shoot their guys with Abrupt Decay.

Thanks for your feedback.

Indeed a different playstyle on the UR Delver MU could be interesting for me, for I think I'm not playing this MU right. Yesterday I played again against it and I was completely wiped.

Trying to adapt your suggested plan to the list I'm playing, I guess it would be, then: -1 E.Visionary, -1 Crop Rotation / +1 S.Ooze, +1 NO (Progenitus is maindeck).

When I have the chance, I'll try it out.

Though, I'm not really sure it will work well for me, since I eventually draw NO on this MU, but it only got stuck to my hand, uncastable; and the flipped Delvers presented a real clock - so, not having A.Decay to stop them is an issue, and I'm not sure if the turn I 'waste' Decaying a Delver is worse than the turns I 'waste' by its rapid clock. Guess I need some more testing...

...

Abrupt Decay seems unneeded, unless you anticipate Pyrostatic Pillar being a problem. Against this matchup I would recommend -1 Heritage Druid, -1 Elvish Visionary, -1 Regal Force; + Scavenging Ooze +X Thorn of Amethyst (if you have them) +x Thalia. Slowing them down with resistors is pretty good considering the low creature count they have.

Thanks.

Adapting it to my last list I guess it would be: -1 E.Visionary, -1 H.Druid, -1 Progenitus / +1 S.Ooze, +1 Thorn, +1 Thalia.

I'll try it out too.

In this case, would you mull to a hand that has a Thorn/Thalia? Or would you be 'satisfied' with a 'regular-7' one?

And why do you elect to cut a H.Druid? Since you're keeping the NOs, isn't the mana the Druid can provide much appreciated?

nudon

06-16-2013, 02:48 PM

As with Lemnear, I don't have actual data, but I can give some gut feelings from playing with/against the decks a lot. I'm assuming this is undisrupted - DRS can be problematic, Cabal Therapy is a thing.

Deck
T1 %
T2 %
T3 %
T4+ %

ANT
5
25
35
35

TES
10
40
30
20

TinFins
15
45
20
20

I'm a little more conservative with my numbers. But keep in mind that if all of your interaction comes down turn 2, all decks have lots of time to interact with it. It can be Duressed and TinFins and TES can chant-walk you.

Thanks for the numbers Greg. I think everyone can agree that 4x therapy and teeg should be in every elf sb and brought in. Having played with both TES and TinFins, do you generally care about trap or does thorn hit harder? From your chart, thorn won't be live on their t2 while on the draw more than half the time. This puts a lot of pressure on drawing one of the 4 therapies in the opening 7.

igri_is_a_bk

06-16-2013, 09:12 PM

This is coming from Logan Creen (top 8 STL) who just 2-0'd me today with TinFins: Surgical Extraction is a better answer against TinFins than MBT. I'm not sure how Extraction would be against TES/ANT as I haven't tried it. Game two, MBT is not going to be good in these matches because they'll Probe you and play accordingly, or discard it, or Silence you; I guarantee it. I'm only confident I want MBT for Belcher and Belcher only. I think Koby is right that they are not worth the space. Play for dodging Belcher and drop the MBT.

I still want a t0 answer to these decks though. The only other one I know is Leyline of Sanctity.

Therapy is still fine here. This is likely what I'll name first turn: Entomb against TinFins, LED against TES/ANT, and Show and Tell for all those variants. Thalia and Teeg are all great if you can get there, so play at least one of each. I'm leaning towards multiple Thalia over any Thorns at all. I always want that clock going with the disruption. It is hardly relevant that an artifact is more difficult to blow up than a creature, because they play bounce as an answer. Admittedly, it hurts the Miracles match up a little bit, but I don't care. :cool:

Dice_Box

06-16-2013, 11:50 PM

danyul

06-17-2013, 12:02 AM

I was poking around this forum while filling out my deck registration. I saw a post from igri_is_a_bk saying we should watch out for Chalices. So I cut the 2nd Birchlore I put in the night before for a Viridian Shaman. So the effective change was -Priest, +Shaman. That change ended up winning me a match against UB Tezzerator in Round 2, and would have been relevant against other decks I played that day had I played the matchup correctly. But I super-punted the next match and went on tilt to lose every remaining match. LOL. Sometimes I play this game more emotionally than rationally. But that's a big part of tournament Magic.

Do not go on tilt!

Do not play with The Fear!

kprimeralmostdonekbye

Edit - if you look at Riley Curran's 9th place list from today, he has incorporated some of the changes you guys have been discussing in the last few pages. IS HE READING ALL OF OUR WORDS? DOES HE KNOWS OUR SECRETS?

So that's kinda cool.

igri_is_a_bk

06-17-2013, 12:32 AM

I'm a big fan of two Arbors and two Hoofs in the 60. The former was sided in very frequently and the latter is the NO-target a vast majority of the time. Anytime I drew Hoof early, I wished I had a second.

Dice_Box

06-17-2013, 12:58 AM

What do you use the second Arbor for? It is a fetchland target? Sorry if this seems like a noob question, but I have never wished for a second one to run so I am interested in your thought patterns on this choice.

Lemnear

06-17-2013, 01:07 AM

I asume the second Arbor is for the NO plan postboard and for additional Quirion activations off a GSZ

.Ix

06-17-2013, 03:28 AM

I think the second Arbor is great in SB games where NO-> Prog is unbeatable. Fetchland for Arbor, Hold priority -> NO is a game-ending play against certain decks.

Lemnear

06-17-2013, 03:56 AM

I think the second Arbor is great in SB games where NO-> Prog is unbeatable. Fetchland for Arbor, Hold priority -> NO is a game-ending play against certain decks.

That specific play makes no sense, requiring 4 lands + fetch for Arbor in a deck running less than 18 lands. If you have Elves on the field you can sac those to NO without the need to fetch a no-mana-producing land that turn.

I still can't find love for Quirion Ranger without Priest/Archdruid. The limited use for machine-gun DRS' and the random turn 2 NO don't warrant it's status as an auto 4-off. :/