[Deck] Elves Combo

[k2thej]

I'm having tons of trouble in a lot of match ups... Against still-type decks I usually get blown out by Deeds and such and then they'll land a Jace...
Against merfolks I'm pretty dead post board. Try fightning 4 E.P, 3 Perish and Submerge/Jitte...

I'm just laughing at how bad we get post board with a Wish-list.

If you board in leylines and all your creatures in the board for glimpse, pact, and wish you shouldn't have a lot of trouble. You have to remember that it is not the same deck post board. It is an aggro deck.

[Waikiki]

I have to agree UGB Landstill is really a pain in the ass because of deed.

[Darklingske]

Ya sweepers are tough but you can play around them. You should hold as many guys in hand until you combo off, and then if you order the casting right you should be able to float enough mana to keep going through a firespout. If they spout to early and stop you from doing this then you can likely come back since you have enough dudes in hand. they key against sweepers is to hold guys in hand until you go off.

During testingsessions against CB most scenarios were something like this:
Play a llanowar T1 - They cast Top
Play a untapper/bouncer T2 followed by something, that they counter or plow- They cast CB
T3 all your 1cmc are now obsolete and they just counter wish. Attack with the 2 dudes. - They play draw - land - go
T4 and further: try to stick a lord or other elves without overextending. - Firespout your board, thank you, come again!

I agree that post board the situation is easier, but pre side I don't see how I can win through a firespout and CB-lock. Maybe I'm missing something OR all the CB-players have Lady Luck on their side in my region :)

[k2thej]

During testingsessions against CB most scenarios were something like this:
Play a llanowar T1 - They cast Top
Play a untapper/bouncer T2 followed by something, that they counter or plow- They cast CB
T3 all your 1cmc are now obsolete and they just counter wish. Attack with the 2 dudes. - They play draw - land - go
T4 and further: try to stick a lord or other elves without overextending. - Firespout your board, thank you, come again!

I agree that post board the situation is easier, but pre side I don't see how I can win through a firespout and CB-lock. Maybe I'm missing something OR all the CB-players have Lady Luck on their side in my region :)

Ya I have not had this consistent a problem with CB. Post board we own them and pre board I usually find that I can combo off before they get countertop online. Maybe I've just been lucky but I've tested it a fair bit.

[Darklingske]

I'm not giving up on testing this deck. I like this deck A LOT and therefore I will continue the testruns against a plethora of decks. Could one of the more experienced players maybe post the sideboard and the various boardingstrategies? Because I think that my boarding is suboptimal to say the least...

[k2thej]

I'm not giving up on testing this deck. I like this deck A LOT and therefore I will continue the testruns against a plethora of decks. Could one of the more experienced players maybe post the sideboard and the various boardingstrategies? Because I think that my boarding is suboptimal to say the least...

Wish or non wish?

[Hawdes]

If you board in leylines and all your creatures in the board for glimpse, pact, and wish you shouldn't have a lot of trouble. You have to remember that it is not the same deck post board. It is an aggro deck.

I'm not playing your exact list with pacts and fancy combo shinnanigans as I opt for a more "non-glasscannonish" build, although I do board in cards that are relevant. But either way, the games are indeed uphill battles.

I cannot simply say that we "OWN" a CB TOP lock only due to a Leyline of Lifeforce, since to apply the sufficient amount of pressure, we have to "overextend" with our 1/1 elves either way.
In the CB Top matchups I do keep GSZ main since I'm trying to play it with CMC 4 and above to make it stick, fetching a lord or Ezuri to add pressure. But since Firespout ends my day there and now, I cannot apply enough pressure.
Hey, I even tried Fecundity against that garbage card and ofc against Perish. But it's simply not the same... :(

[Darklingske]

Wish or non wish?

I switch between the two to see wich one I like best :)

[Koby]

I have to agree UGB Landstill is really a pain in the ass because of deed.


I But since Firespout ends my day there and now, I cannot apply enough pressure. But it's simply not the same... :(

Vengevine. Test it out, it's highly recursive in Elves, and come back fast.

[Darklingske]

Vengevine. Test it out, it's highly recursive in Elves, and come back fast.

But to make vengevine decent, it is best to play fauna shaman with it. And intuition. And then we have a whole different deck.

[k2thej]

Vengevine. Test it out, it's highly recursive in Elves, and come back fast.

Ruckus- As you know, I really love my MD. How relevant do you think a set of vines in the board would be to bring in against sweepers? I've never tested them in the SB.


@Hawdes- I def would not call my list a glass cannon. The ability to bounce back from sweepers or to switch to straight aggro are frankly too strong to call it a glass cannon. If I wanted to make a glass cannon list I would run spirit guides and take out the archdruids for more one drops. I would probably also splash blue for brainstorm. I don't do this because this deck is much more than a glass cannon, while also hardly being any slower. If you move in that direction you might as well play ANT.

[Darklingske]

So, as I asked before. What is the sideboarding strategy for a wish build? And what exactly is your sideboard?

[k2thej]

So, as I asked before. What is the sideboarding strategy for a wish build? And what exactly is your sideboard?

It's been posted a bunch but my SB is:

1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Joraga Warcaller
4 Leyline of Lifeforce
1 Masticore
1 Regal Force
4 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Viridian Zealot


vs. CB- game 2 swap everything in your board except thorn and cradle for pact, glimpse, and wish. If you are playing someone you think is good, switch back to your normal MD game 3- they will have taken out CB and other counters since they expect leyline and your combo can run free!

vs. combo- thorns for archdruids and a wish

vs. gobs, zoo, dredge- race 'em. You should be faster than them about 80% of the time (if using my build)

vs. fish- I usually race them all 3 games but some people prefer to do the same strategy as CB. They tend to hold all counters for glimpses though since they don't run that many, so leyline can be redundant.

vs. Landstill- Put shaman and zealot in the MD for EE, but I think we are better off trying to combo instead of go aggro. Our clock HAS to be fast to outrun humility and minimize sweeps.


Other matchups you wanted to know about?

[Darklingske]

Other matchups you wanted to know about?

A MU that is coming up regularly now is that artifact forgemaster thing. I find that MU very hard to win since they tend to be very fast with megamonsters too.
And what do we do against sneaky show?

[k2thej]

A MU that is coming up regularly now is that artifact forgemaster thing. I find that MU very hard to win since they tend to be very fast with megamonsters too.
And what do we do against sneaky show?

Haven't played the forgemaster deck yet. Will think about that..

Sneaky show- I actually was one win away from top 8ing at a 300 person SCG open in MA when I got paired against this deck. I smoked him game one. Game two I boarded in Leylines and kept a hand with a leyline and no lands (WHICH I WILL NEVER DO AGAIN) and didn't see a land all games. Didn't play a spell, he won. Game 3 I left I took the leylines out and he took out all his counters (score!), I then didn't see a glimpse and went aggro. Got him to 10 life and the he sneak attacked emrakul and I SURVIVED IT. I sacked everything except two archdruids. Next turn I swung for 6 and he was at 4. He pulled all kinds of shenanigans and somehow managed to find an intuition and got 3 emrakuls and then sneak attacked the last one in for the win. FUCK I was so close. Sigh...anyway.

Case and point- This was the closest match I have ever played and I didn't even cast one spell in game 2. I think I misplayed it but I think it was a good matchup. The kid I lost to finished 5th on the day.

[Hawdes]

Haven't played the forgemaster deck yet. Will think about that..

Sneaky show- I actually was one win away from top 8ing at a 300 person SCG open in MA when I got paired against this deck. I smoked him game one. Game two I boarded in Leylines and kept a hand with a leyline and no lands (WHICH I WILL NEVER DO AGAIN) and didn't see a land all games. Didn't play a spell, he won. Game 3 I left I took the leylines out and he took out all his counters (score!), I then didn't see a glimpse and went aggro. Got him to 10 life and the he sneak attacked emrakul and I SURVIVED IT. I sacked everything except two archdruids. Next turn I swung for 6 and he was at 4. He pulled all kinds of shenanigans and somehow managed to find an intuition and got 3 emrakuls and then sneak attacked the last one in for the win. FUCK I was so close. Sigh...anyway.

Case and point- This was the closest match I have ever played and I didn't even cast one spell in game 2. I think I misplayed it but I think it was a good matchup. The kid I lost to finished 5th on the day.

I have actually played against the Forgemaster deck a lot of times. With and without sideboard. This matchup is usually decided around T2 or T3.
The only real threat in that deck imo are the Lodestone Golems which tend to make comboing difficult (add in Lightning Greaves aswell) and we're in a hell of a fight...
My maindeck Viridian Shaman and Nullmage Shepherd that comes in with wish usually seals the deal.
If you can remove two artifacts a turn, they have simply nothing to put up against you. No sweepers, no counters. Only problem you have are Welders, which I hope people have Masticore for...

[k2thej]

I have actually played against the Forgemaster deck a lot of times. With and without sideboard. This matchup is usually decided around T2 or T3.
The only real threat in that deck imo are the Lodestone Golems which tend to make comboing difficult (add in Lightning Greaves aswell) and we're in a hell of a fight...
My maindeck Viridian Shaman and Nullmage Shepherd that comes in with wish usually seals the deal.
If you can remove two artifacts a turn, they have simply nothing to put up against you. No sweepers, no counters. Only problem you have are Welders, which I hope people have Masticore for...

The lodestone sucks but we also have to worry about chalice and trinisphere

[Darklingske]

Okay, thanx guys. Info like that will make my life (hopefully) better next tournament. Wich is next saturday :)

[Hawdes]

The lodestone sucks but we also have to worry about chalice and trinisphere

Most lists are so tight that they have the Trispheres and Chalices in the board... Just to be able to have enough "going"...

And when I boarded I just got my Leylines in and it was a walk in the park... But I could've had more K.Grips in my side.. Atm I have none.

[k2thej]

Most lists are so tight that they have the Trispheres and Chalices in the board... Just to be able to have enough "going"...

And when I boarded I just got my Leylines in and it was a walk in the park... But I could've had more K.Grips in my side.. Atm I have none.

Ya I was referring to the board. Leylines are def take care of chalice. Having shaman and zealot main would be good I imagine. I'll test against this deck later tonight.

[blind]

But to make vengevine decent, it is best to play fauna shaman with it. And intuition. And then we have a whole different deck.

You can play VV without Fauna and Intuition. Vengevine is just THE best solution Vs removal (Wrath, Deed, Perish, Firespout, ...) and is great Vs CB. VV is just good SB card in ElfBall that's obv! ;)

[1maarten1]

You can play VV without Fauna and Intuition. Vengevine is just THE best solution Vs removal (Wrath, Deed, Perish, Firespout, ...) and is great Vs CB. VV is just good SB card in ElfBall that's obv! ;)

Yeah I have used it a while ago and it really worked well. Ofcourse its slower without fauna shaman/intuition but its not like you are in a hurry vs control right? Ill test -4 thorn + 3 VV + 1 Krosan Grip.

[k2thej]

Yeah I have used it a while ago and it really worked well. Ofcourse its slower without fauna shaman/intuition but its not like you are in a hurry vs control right? Ill test -4 thorn + 3 VV + 1 Krosan Grip.

I like the idea of vines in the board too, but whatd you do against combo without thorns?

[1maarten1]

I like the idea of vines in the board too, but whatd you do against combo without thorns?

I had tons of games where I had thorn on the board and the storm player just killed me with ease anyway, without thorn I would just pray to get to combo t2, t3 if he opened something bad. Ofcourse turn 2 thorn might buy you the time to go off, but it also slows you down right? (meaning that it is a 2 drop, which you could replace with 2 elves or a glimpse + an elf etc.)

What I am trying to say is: The storm combo MU remains bad. With or without thorn. Leyline helps against counterdecks, but with VV alongside it, those MU's really become alot better. So I think I'd rather have a board that gives me wins vs CBTop + Removal (or landstill) than 4 cards that might help vs a deck thats faster then me anyway.

I never tested with Fauna shaman, So I am going to give it a go:
Spells
4 glimpse of nature
3 Summoner's Pact

Creatures
4 Fauna Shaman
4 wirewood symbiote
4 quirrion ranger
4 llanowar elves
3 fyndhorn elves
4 elvish visionary
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Heritage Druid
4 Birchlore Rangers
1 Regal force
1 Emrakul
2 Elvish Archdruid
1 Joraga Warcaller

lands
7 Forest
3 Misty rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs

Sideboard:
4 Leyline of Lifeforce
4 Vengevine
2 Reverent Silence
1 Krosan Grip
2 Viridian Shaman
1 Masticore (these last 2 are just random slots so if you have a better suggestion please do so!)
1 Fearie Macabre

This list has 0 testing so please dont be to hard on me :P. Splashing white is possible ofcourse, giving Mirror Entity as kill. Dont think its needed since you can just grab Warcaller instead? 2 Cradle + Crop Rotation is also a possibility but I wanted to have a strong manabase and the deck performs fine without Cradle. The Intuition/Buried Alive versions are nice, but are more vulnerable to mana denial and those versions are just way out of budget for me with the Trops/Bayous/Intuitions. So Ill stick to monogreen for a while and see how that goes.

I am also currently playing the wish list, never played Fauna Shaman so I will test this list and just see how it runs. Any people that are familiar with a similar list please let me know what you think!

~Maarten

[k2thej]

I had tons of games where I had thorn on the board and the storm player just killed me with ease anyway, without thorn I would just pray to get to combo t2, t3 if he opened something bad. Ofcourse turn 2 thorn might buy you the time to go off, but it also slows you down right? (meaning that it is a 2 drop, which you could replace with 2 elves or a glimpse + an elf etc.)

What I am trying to say is: The storm combo MU remains bad. With or without thorn. Leyline helps against counterdecks, but with VV alongside it, those MU's really become alot better. So I think I'd rather have a board that gives me wins vs CBTop + Removal (or landstill) than 4 cards that might help vs a deck thats faster then me anyway.

I think you have a good point about the thorns. Does anyone else have positive experiences with boarding them in against storm?

[Darklingske]

So what would be your reasoning to play Fauna Shaman in this list? The fast tutoring? Or simply as PtE, StP bait? I know the synergy between Fauna & Emrakul, but is that the big reason for the switch?

[Darklingske]

I think you have a good point about the thorns. Does anyone else have positive experiences with boarding them in against storm?

I don't. Same as Maarten said. It slows them down a bit, but more often than not, they are still very well capable of storming out before we pose a threat.

[1maarten1]

So what would be your reasoning to play Fauna Shaman in this list? The fast tutoring? Or simply as PtE, StP bait? I know the synergy between Fauna & Emrakul, but is that the big reason for the switch?

No big reason ;) Just to try it out! I am very happy with how the wish list is performing, I was just curious how a Fauna list would play (fauna ofcourse being a little better with the VV from the board eventhough it will probably catch a removal spell asap, although if that means I get to keep my Symbiote's around it might be worth it.)

[Koby]

So what would be your reasoning to play Fauna Shaman in this list? The fast tutoring? Or simply as PtE, StP bait? I know the synergy between Fauna & Emrakul, but is that the big reason for the switch?

Fauna Shaman helps you setup if it stick around. Otherwise, it eats removal that would otherwise be directed at Heritage Druid/Nettle Sentinel/Wirewood Symbiote. Being able to tutor up lords is also a bonus. Granted, it's much slower in the Combo lists.


I think you have a good point about the thorns. Does anyone else have positive experiences with boarding them in against storm?

The few times I've gotten a chance to play storm, I lost before being able to cast Thorns. Their fundamental turn is just faster than ours, and often times faster than we can actually cast Thorns. They also play discard, which hurts our chances to resolve Thorns. I've been testing out Cabal Therapy as disruptiong (with the Bayou package). This could allow us to have enough disruption against such decks. It's also good in other matchups as well, like control or midrange. We surely have enough creatures to sac for it :)

It might just be a better option to run Savannah and sideboard into Silence/Orim's Chant as a mean to disrupt their combo turn.

The black options gives us:
4 Cabal Therapy/Thoughtseize
2 Buried Alive
3-4 Vengevine (3 may be the right number)

I think this splash might be the best going forward. Intuition seems rather lackluster when you end up keeping 1 Vengevine in your hand, that would otherwise come into play with any 2 elves. On the other hand, Intuition allows us to tutor for whichever cards we want, like 3 fetchlands, or 3 Glimpse.

Any thoughts?

[k2thej]

Fauna Shaman helps you setup if it stick around. Otherwise, it eats removal that would otherwise be directed at Heritage Druid/Nettle Sentinel/Wirewood Symbiote. Being able to tutor up lords is also a bonus. Granted, it's much slower in the Combo lists.



The few times I've gotten a chance to play storm, I lost before being able to cast Thorns. Their fundamental turn is just faster than ours, and often times faster than we can actually cast Thorns. They also play discard, which hurts our chances to resolve Thorns. I've been testing out Cabal Therapy as disruptiong (with the Bayou package). This could allow us to have enough disruption against such decks. It's also good in other matchups as well, like control or midrange. We surely have enough creatures to sac for it :)

It might just be a better option to run Savannah and sideboard into Silence/Orim's Chant as a mean to disrupt their combo turn.

The black options gives us:
4 Cabal Therapy/Thoughtseize
2 Buried Alive
3-4 Vengevine (3 may be the right number)

I think this splash might be the best going forward. Intuition seems rather lackluster when you end up keeping 1 Vengevine in your hand, that would otherwise come into play with any 2 elves. On the other hand, Intuition allows us to tutor for whichever cards we want, like 3 fetchlands, or 3 Glimpse.

Any thoughts?

I am def starting to really like the idea of vines in the board. Possibly buried alive as well. What if your MD was straight combo (No wish) and had 3 buried alive and 4vv in the board? So you take up 7 slots, still leaving room for 4 leyline and 4 grip or whatever you prefer.

[1maarten1]

I am def starting to really like the idea of vines in the board. Possibly buried alive as well. What if your MD was straight combo (No wish) and had 3 buried alive and 4vv in the board? So you take up 7 slots, still leaving room for 4 leyline and 4 grip or whatever you prefer.

I agree! The idea does seem apealing. 4 VV might be too much, 3 might be the correct number since that is also the number you can put to the grave with BA. 3 VV + 3 BA Seems nice. Maybe a sideboard like this:
4 leyline
3 vengevine
3 buried alive
2 reverent silence
1 krosan grip
2 Viridian Shaman

This ofcourse changes the maindeck,
1. We need a kill MD, Emrakul seems best although Grapeshot + E.witness is also a possibility if you are scared of peacekeeper.
2. The mana base; im thinking of 7 forest, 6 fetch, 2 bayou. Cradle or not? With or without Crop Rotation?
3. Duress/Thoughtseize/Cabal Therapy main? I would opt Duress, I dont like losing too much life to fetches and Seizes. Therapy is great but for game 1 it seems like you would have to make a blind call too often? I could be completely wrong here, I mean: I truely loved therapy's back in the days when I played Dredge. Although it would kinda suck if you get too many of these in a row while you are going off, even though that will probably allow you to truly rape your opponents hand.
4. The ''lord'' package has been great for me so far being 2 Archdruid 1 Warcaller.

The Maindeck would be Straight combo with 4 slots of protection/disruption to maybe give you that edge you need against certain decks and the sideboard tuned to beat counters and removal spells. Sounds pretty awesome to me. Anyway lemme know what your opinion is on the sb/the 4 points I mentioned above!

[k2thej]

I agree! The idea does seem apealing. 4 VV might be too much, 3 might be the correct number since that is also the number you can put to the grave with BA. 3 VV + 3 BA Seems nice. Maybe a sideboard like this:
4 leyline
3 vengevine
3 buried alive
2 reverent silence
1 krosan grip
2 Viridian Shaman

This ofcourse changes the maindeck,
1. We need a kill MD, Emrakul seems best although Grapeshot + E.witness is also a possibility if you are scared of peacekeeper.
2. The mana base; im thinking of 7 forest, 6 fetch, 2 bayou. Cradle or not? With or without Crop Rotation?
3. Duress/Thoughtseize/Cabal Therapy main? I would opt Duress, I dont like losing too much life to fetches and Seizes. Therapy is great but for game 1 it seems like you would have to make a blind call too often? I could be completely wrong here, I mean: I truely loved therapy's back in the days when I played Dredge. Although it would kinda suck if you get too many of these in a row while you are going off, even though that will probably allow you to truly rape your opponents hand.
4. The ''lord'' package has been great for me so far being 2 Archdruid 1 Warcaller.

The Maindeck would be Straight combo with 4 slots of protection/disruption to maybe give you that edge you need against certain decks and the sideboard tuned to beat counters and removal spells. Sounds pretty awesome to me. Anyway lemme know what your opinion is on the sb/the 4 points I mentioned above!


I don't even think you should waste the slots for disruption md. Just straight combo MD. Only change is one or two bayous.

[NihilObstat]

I think you have a good point about the thorns. Does anyone else have positive experiences with boarding them in against storm?

I guess I'm just lucky against Storm, but I have had this exact situation many times.
G1: They win turn 1-2-3.
G2: I start, land + mana elf, they don't combo, thorns, they try to brainstorm-tutor solutions, I try to cast-draw-looking for the second thorn or tutor for Gaddock and it's GG.
G3: The same, but they start, so it's harder. In this games my 2 Orim's chant help a lot. I just tend to win Ant easily.

I do run 4 Thorn, 2 Orim's chant and Gaddock only because my meta is very combo-full, but this is simply a meta-call.

I have been very busy lately, and haven't done almost any testing or commented here, but I see the thread is quite vivid and you are all sharing many ideas. Good for the elves ;)

[Darklingske]

so, past weekend elves made a top 16 appearence at SCG Open. His list was with vengevine and fauna shaman and intuition. It was a very diverse field and top 16. Always nice to see elves perform well!

[1maarten1]

I don't even think you should waste the slots for disruption md. Just straight combo MD. Only change is one or two bayous.

I took some time to test this morning/afternoon. My conclusions:
The 4 slots of MD protection werent really usefull the entire morning so I will cut those out.
BA+VV Was insane! One game I baited my opponents counters with Glimpse, the turn after that: BA resolves, 3 Vines hit the board and hit him for 12. He clears my board with Perish or Spout or smthn, my turn I topdeck a Llanowar + I had 1 symbiote so I bounced 1 elf back. The vengevines come back and destroy him.

1-2 Bayous: I think 1 is enough, eventhough it would suck having BA countered and your Bayou wasteland'ed. Sure you still have Birchlore then and you have to luck to draw another BA. They won't expect duals anyway since in game 1 you will fetch for just basics anyway.

I have been switching between Emrakul and Grapeshot+Witness which really doesnt matter if you ask me. Though being able to witness back a countered BA in game 2 seems nice. Ofcourse Grapeshot can get stifled, although I never found that to be a problem. Usually I can just witness and kill them with it in the same turn, or I Acidic Slime their blue land and then grapeshot. (I switched 1 viridian Shaman main for 1 Acidic Slime).

Here is what I want to play after this day of testing:
Lands: 14
7 Forest
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Bayou

Spells: 9
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Summoner's Pact
1 Grapeshot

Creatures: 37
3 Llanowar Elves
4 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Heritage Druid
4 Birchlore Rangers
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Quirrion Ranger
4 Elvish Visionary

1 Regal Force
1 Eternal Witness
1 Acidic Slime
2 Elvish Archdruid
1 Joraga War-Caller

Sideboard: 15
4 Leyline of Lifeforce
3 Vengevine
3 Buried Alive
2 Reverent Silence
1 Krosan Grip
2 Viridian Shaman

Tell me what you think guys =)

[k2thej]

I took some time to test this morning/afternoon. My conclusions:
The 4 slots of MD protection werent really usefull the entire morning so I will cut those out.
BA+VV Was insane! One game I baited my opponents counters with Glimpse, the turn after that: BA resolves, 3 Vines hit the board and hit him for 12. He clears my board with Perish or Spout or smthn, my turn I topdeck a Llanowar + I had 1 symbiote so I bounced 1 elf back. The vengevines come back and destroy him.

1-2 Bayous: I think 1 is enough, eventhough it would suck having BA countered and your Bayou wasteland'ed. Sure you still have Birchlore then and you have to luck to draw another BA. They won't expect duals anyway since in game 1 you will fetch for just basics anyway.

I have been switching between Emrakul and Grapeshot+Witness which really doesnt matter if you ask me. Though being able to witness back a countered BA in game 2 seems nice. Ofcourse Grapeshot can get stifled, although I never found that to be a problem. Usually I can just witness and kill them with it in the same turn, or I Acidic Slime their blue land and then grapeshot. (I switched 1 viridian Shaman main for 1 Acidic Slime).

Here is what I want to play after this day of testing:
Lands: 14
7 Forest
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Bayou

Spells: 9
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Summoner's Pact
1 Grapeshot

Creatures: 37
3 Llanowar Elves
4 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Heritage Druid
4 Birchlore Rangers
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Quirrion Ranger
4 Elvish Visionary

1 Regal Force
1 Eternal Witness
1 Acidic Slime
2 Elvish Archdruid
1 Joraga War-Caller

Sideboard: 15
4 Leyline of Lifeforce
3 Vengevine
3 Buried Alive
2 Reverent Silence
1 Krosan Grip
2 Viridian Shaman

Tell me what you think guys =)

I think running emrakul lets you have the 8th llanowar main, which is the difference for me. This is key post board because the llanowars allow for turn 2 buried alive.

Why acidic slime over shaman/zealot?

[Koby]

Usually I can just witness and kill them with it in the same turn, or I Acidic Slime their blue land and then grapeshot. (I switched 1 viridian Shaman main for 1 Acidic Slime).



I think running emrakul lets you have the 8th llanowar main, which is the difference for me. This is key post board because the llanowars allow for turn 2 buried alive.

Why acidic slime over shaman/zealot?

[1maarten1]

I think running emrakul lets you have the 8th llanowar main, which is the difference for me. This is key post board because the llanowars allow for turn 2 buried alive.

Why acidic slime over shaman/zealot?

Well there is a lot more than just Llanowar that can get you to turn 2 BA. The Llanowar on the turn 1 is really nice and 7 allows you to do consistantly do that although 8 will be fine also. Emrakul does gives you a chance vs PainterStone & Some high tide lists although those usually win through BSZ nowadays.

Acidic because it can lands like Chasm and Tabernacle. Viridian in the board so you can still pull the shaman+symbiote stuff. I really like the idea of being able to Witness back a countered BA so Ill just test with grapeshot and witness for now.

[k2thej]

@ruckus- You know what really grinds my gears? When I do things like that...

@1marteen1- I get slime for tabernacle and chasm, but it certainly seems like shaman main and slime board would be better judging by how often you see those lands.

[Darklingske]

@1marteen1- I get slime for tabernacle and chasm, but it certainly seems like shaman main and slime board would be better judging by how often you see those lands.

I have to aggree with k2thej. Shaman allows you to continue to tap for mana and it only costs 3 mana instead of 5.

[1maarten1]

I have to aggree with k2thej. Shaman allows you to continue to tap for mana and it only costs 3 mana instead of 5.

If your kill is Emrakul yes. If you use grapeshot then not since you want to be able to destroy the blue land they let open for stifle.

[k2thej]

If your kill is Emrakul yes. If you use grapeshot then not since you want to be able to destroy the blue land they let open for stifle.

So the grapeshot kill takes 3 card slots: grapeshot, witness, and slime. Emrakul takes one and there is not really any other difference...except that Emrakul can occasionally be hardcast when not comboing and grapeshot can't. Why not free up the extra slots? They seem like wasted slots to me.

[Darklingske]

So the grapeshot kill takes 3 card slots: grapeshot, witness, and slime. Emrakul takes one and there is not really any other difference...except that Emrakul can occasionally be hardcast when not comboing and grapeshot can't. Why not free up the extra slots? They seem like wasted slots to me.

And if that doesn't sound appealling to you, you can always play emrakul and grapeshot. I mean that even if they stifle the grapeshot, you will still have a HUGE army the next turn to attack with!

[1maarten1]

So the grapeshot kill takes 3 card slots: grapeshot, witness, and slime. Emrakul takes one and there is not really any other difference...except that Emrakul can occasionally be hardcast when not comboing and grapeshot can't. Why not free up the extra slots? They seem like wasted slots to me.

Like I explained Witness can be VERY usefull. Returning a counter BA, glimpse, or even an wasted bayou. And saying that its not possible to cast grapeshot outside the combo is just dead wrong. I have had plenty of games where I grapeshotted for 4 to take 2-3 creatures on turn 3.

[k2thej]

Like I explained Witness can be VERY usefull. Returning a counter BA, glimpse, or even an wasted bayou. And saying that its not possible to cast grapeshot outside the combo is just dead wrong. I have had plenty of games where I grapeshotted for 4 to take 2-3 creatures on turn 3.

I meant cast grapeshot as a wincon. Whenever you cast Emrakul you win, and you don't always have to be comboing to do it.

I have tested witness a lot and every time I always end up taking her out. It does sound like you've found quite a few uses for her, I just always opt for streamlined combo at the expense of addressing threats in the MD.

[Koby]

And now, for something different:

Game 1 vs Aluren

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g76ZAZHhrmA

Game 2 vs Aluren

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUNcauyNrzY

Decklist:

7 Forest
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Birchlore Rangers
3 Elvish Archdruid
4 Elvish Visionary
1 Ezuri, Renegade Leader
4 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Heritage Druid
1 Joraga Warcaller
3 Llanowar Elves
4 Nettle Sentinel
1 Priest of Titania
2 Quirion Ranger
1 Regal Force
3 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Glimpse of Nature
3 Living Wish
4 Summoner's Pact

Sideboard
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Eternal Witness
1 Gaea's Cradle
3 Krosan Grip
1 Molten-Tail Masticore
4 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Vexing Shusher
1 Viridian Shaman

[Waikiki]

Nice , fun video's. How much tix does an elf deck cost online ?

[k2thej]

And now, for something different:

Decklist:

7 Forest
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Birchlore Rangers
3 Elvish Archdruid
4 Elvish Visionary
1 Ezuri, Renegade Leader
4 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Heritage Druid
1 Joraga Warcaller
3 Llanowar Elves
4 Nettle Sentinel
1 Priest of Titania
2 Quirion Ranger
1 Regal Force
3 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Glimpse of Nature
3 Living Wish
4 Summoner's Pact

Sideboard
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Eternal Witness
1 Gaea's Cradle
3 Krosan Grip
1 Molten-Tail Masticore
4 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Vexing Shusher
1 Viridian Shaman


Sweet vids Ruckus. The music makes me wanna dance in all kinds of embarrassing ways! some ?'s:

-you have 1 priest, 3 archdruid, and 1 ezuri main. It could just be these games or the aluren MU in general, but it didn't seem like you wanted to cast them often. Why cut the 4th symbiote/4th llanowar/3rd and 4th ranger for these? From the way you play the deck above, it would seem to benefit you more from having these cards than all 5 lords, or at least some of them.

-why molten-tail over normal masticore? I haven't tested it much but I was always worried I would need to use it without dudes in the yard.

-how hard is it to combo with the extra mana needed for activating shusher each time?

[catmint]

I had recently 3 matches vs. dredge and lost all of them 2:0 or 2:1.
It was also a little bit of bad luck, but cabal therapy is such a strong disruption piece that keeps us from comboing.
(a competent player goes for glimpse if we have it, he takes a 2nd card).

do you consider it necessary to run some graveyard hate or what are your experiences vs. dredge?

I thougth about it a little about it and I am thinking to run 1-2 cabal therapy myself in SB (helps in many matchups to disrupt and I can sac an elf to remove the bridges). I would like to find out if it might be enough to remove bridges instead of the whole graveyard. If so 1-2 Elvish Eulogist would be nice. They are better for the combo (which is important vs. dredge) and we can tutor for them in case of emergency (no combo, but pact + 4 mana).
Eulogist might be also nice vs. burn...

Did you ever consider that?

[k2thej]

I had recently 3 matches vs. dredge and lost all of them 2:0 or 2:1.
It was also a little bit of bad luck, but cabal therapy is such a strong disruption piece that keeps us from comboing.
(a competent player goes for glimpse if we have it, he takes a 2nd card).

do you consider it necessary to run some graveyard hate or what are your experiences vs. dredge?

I thougth about it a little about it and I am thinking to run 1-2 cabal therapy myself in SB (helps in many matchups to disrupt and I can sac an elf to remove the bridges). I would like to find out if it might be enough to remove bridges instead of the whole graveyard. If so 1-2 Elvish Eulogist would be nice. They are better for the combo (which is important vs. dredge) and we can tutor for them in case of emergency (no combo, but pact + 4 mana).
Eulogist might be also nice vs. burn...

Did you ever consider that?

To be honest I have never found dredge to be much of a problem. I used to run crypts in the board but I took them out for other things that I thought were more relevant. If you want to have dredge though, I think crypts would be better than elvish euologist. You can get rid of bridges, Ichorids, dread return, dread return targets, and most importantly, dredgers. If you want to hate dredge I have found crypt to be the best option.

[Koby]

Sweet vids Ruckus. The music makes me wanna dance in all kinds of embarrassing ways! some ?'s:

-you have 1 priest, 3 archdruid, and 1 ezuri main. It could just be these games or the aluren MU in general, but it didn't seem like you wanted to cast them often. Why cut the 4th symbiote/4th llanowar/3rd and 4th ranger for these? From the way you play the deck above, it would seem to benefit you more from having these cards than all 5 lords, or at least some of them.

-why molten-tail over normal masticore? I haven't tested it much but I was always worried I would need to use it without dudes in the yard.

-how hard is it to combo with the extra mana needed for activating shusher each time?

Ezuri has since been cut, but I do remember one game where getting him won the game due to overrun. He's very weak MD - Viridian Shaman has since replaced him.

Priest of Titania - I wanted a 4th effect, but the 3 mana lord was oftentimes sitting in my hand (3 mana isn't the easiest to throw out)
Wirewood/Ranger/mana elves - I have since gone to a 4 Symbiote, 3 Ranger, 8 Elf package to streamline the combo phase.

Masticore - I view both of these as identical, however, Molten Tail can still win vs Moat and Ensnaring Bridge; it could also kill Peacekeeper, but at that point you're better off shooting the player for 4. Discarding creatures isn't really an issue, and most of the time you would Wish for Masticore when you've already faced removal (Perish, Firespout, et al).

When I bring in Vexishing Shusher (stompy, or cbtop) I also bring in Krosan Grip. In conjunction I play a slower combo turn, but with more consistency against their hate cards. With the new VV/Buried Alive sideboard package, this may not even be necessary anymore, but more testing will reveal. Comboing off with Vexing Shusher is very easy - I once managed to draw my whole deck turn 2 with Shusher activations against an active Counterbalance. It just requires more careful play. (I ended up losing that game because Emrakul was not in the format yet, and I had to pass the turn into Firespout... go figure!)

[(nameless one)]

Hey rukcus,

In a meta with a lot of Stifle-based tempo, would you replace the fetches with basics or the thinning is basically needed for the deck to work?

Also, has anyone reviewed the Intuition>Vengevine lists that are popping out? Does it add consistency/explosiveness to the deck?

I think upgrading my Aggro-Elves to combo is going to be my summer project.

[Koby]

In a meta with a lot of Stifle-based tempo, would you replace the fetches with basics or the thinning is basically needed for the deck to work?

Also, has anyone reviewed the Intuition>Vengevine lists that are popping out? Does it add consistency/explosiveness to the deck?

I think upgrading my Aggro-Elves to combo is going to be my summer project.

Running less fetch and more basics is a good idea in a Stifle metagame; it will slightly effect the consistency of mid-combo when you draw so many lands. It's still better than getting blown out with Stifle however.

Intuition/VV is robust, but I believe that we may have better results with Buried Alive, even if it is narrower of a card. The blue splash provides not much more utility than Intuition, whereas black gives you discard and an engine to dump VV. I think this is stronger for this deck that can reliably cast Buried Alive turn 2 off a mana elf.

@ MODO Prices:
The most expensive card online right now is Gaea's Cradle @20, followed by Glimpse of Nature ~5, then Summoner's Pact, and it falls off from there at between 0.25 to 3 for the remainder of the cards. This is not factoring in fetchland, which go for about 5-8 each.

[k2thej]

Ezuri has since been cut, but I do remember one game where getting him won the game due to overrun. He's very weak MD - Viridian Shaman has since replaced him.

When I bring in Vexishing Shusher (stompy, or cbtop) I also bring in Krosan Grip. In conjunction I play a slower combo turn, but with more consistency against their hate cards. With the new VV/Buried Alive sideboard package, this may not even be necessary anymore, but more testing will reveal. Comboing off with Vexing Shusher is very easy - I once managed to draw my whole deck turn 2 with Shusher activations against an active Counterbalance. It just requires more careful play. (I ended up losing that game because Emrakul was not in the format yet, and I had to pass the turn into Firespout... go figure!)

About Vengevine- If you go this route he will be in the SB I assume, right? I've been testing it and I think I will pretty much end up using my original list that I posted a bit ago before I added wish, since the 7ish sb slots for vv/ba will make a wishboard hard to pull off, especially if we still want room for grip/thorn/leyline/shusher or whatever else you might want. Are you thinking of nixing wish as well to go with the vv plan?

[Koby]

That is indeed my configuration now.

From the above list:

-3 Wish
-1 Ezuri
-1 Archdruid

+1 Emrakul
+1 Symbiote
+1 Elf
+1 Viridian Shaman
+1 Ranger

SB:
-1 Cradle
-1 Masticore
-1 Emrakul
-1 Viridian Shaman
-1 Witness
-4 Thorns

+3 Vengevine
+3 Buried Alive
+3 Cabal Therapy

[Beautiful-Decay]

to K2thej. Dredge is pretty hard to deal with today. They gained: Leyline of santicity. Which protects them from EVERY graveyard hate card in everyone's SB except leyline of the void and Bojuka.

[JCLe]

to K2thej. Dredge is pretty hard to deal with today. They gained: Leyline of santicity. Which protects them from EVERY graveyard hate card in everyone's SB except leyline of the void and Bojuka.

Who runs leyline of sanctity in dredge first of all, and how about relic of progenitus ? BTW it stops bojuka bog as far as I'm concerned

[k2thej]

@Ruckus- Are the therapies for combo or do you anticipate them helping in other matchups as well?

I think the consistency of this board might prove better, though I haven't tested it yet:

4 Buried Alive
4 Krosan Grip (spot up for question since I am not sure what we need to kill anymore...)
3 Vengevine
4 Vexing Shusher

@Beautiful-Decay- with the black splash we can run void pretty easily if you think it is a problem.


EDIT: Why are we still running grips? Is it just for humility? With the VV plan we don't need to kill EE, we have shusher for cb and chalice, the only matchup I can think of it being really helpful in is against vial (and even then we should just race instead of slow the deck down) or the new forgemaster deck.

Also- How many sweepers do you think we need to expect before it is worth bringing in the vengevines? I know comboing through sweepers can work pretty nicely, especially with 4 shushers in the deck.

[Koby]

Why are we still running grips?

Jitte, Engineered Plague, Vial, Pithing Needle, Canonist, etc

[k2thej]

Jitte- not fast enough to stop us. And furthermore, if you have trouble keeping guys out, Vengevines!

E plague- Vengevines!

Needle- What would they call needle on?

Vial & Cannonist- Ya, those are problems, mostly canonist tho.

[Koby]

For the most part, Vengevine answers those problem cards. I'm mostly concerned with the Turn 2 Stoneforge Mystic -> Jitte draw; which appears to happen every time (that is to say, this line of play is very consistent for X & Taxes decks). Needle of Wirewood Symbiote is an annoyance, but mostly Canonist EOT and Equipment is the primary need for KGrips, aside from trouble enchantments.

[k2thej]

For the most part, Vengevine answers those problem cards. I'm mostly concerned with the Turn 2 Stoneforge Mystic -> Jitte draw; which appears to happen every time (that is to say, this line of play is very consistent for X & Taxes decks). Needle of Wirewood Symbiote is an annoyance, but mostly Canonist EOT and Equipment is the primary need for KGrips, aside from trouble enchantments.

Even so, it still seems like that spot could be used against more common threats, no?

[Koby]

Ok here's the list I'm playing right now:


1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Bayou
6 Forest
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wooded Foothills

4 Fyndhorn Elves
3 Llanowar Elves
4 Birchlore Rangers
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Heritage Druid
4 Elvish Visionary
2 Elvish Archdruid
1 Priest of Titania
2 Fauna Shaman

4 Wirewood Symbiote

1 Joraga Warcaller
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Regal Force
1 Quirion Ranger
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Summoner's Pact

Sideboard
3 Buried Alive
4 Vengevine
1 Viridian Shaman
3 Krosan Grip
3 Vexing Shusher
1 Terastodon

I'm probably going to cut down to 3 Vengevine very soon, as I've played more games with it and the 4th usually isn't necessary once you fire off Buried Alive. I'm trying out a couple of Fauna Shaman for when Glimpse doesn't show up to help setup a Priest/Ranger with Emrakul. I expect 90% of the time for Fauna Shaman to be countered/killed, but that's OK since she's plan B.

MTGO Daily Event #2152286
Round 1 - New Horizons
Game 1 - Fetch, elf go. He, land go. Fetch, Stifle'd, cast Visionary and setup for a combo turn. Goes back a few times and forth, then I stick a Glimpse and he concedes.
+3 BA +3 VV taking out some Pacts and Birchlores
Game 2 - I draw Gaea's Cradle and do stupid things with absurds amount of mana (like hard cast 3 VV).

Round 2 - Enchantress
Game 1 - Go off turn 3 off 1 land, draw all but 7 cards in my deck. :>
SB: +3 Krosan Grip +1 Terastadon -2 Pact -1 Warcaller (pfft attacking?) -1 V.Shaman
Game 2 -
Opening Hand: 2 Forest, 2 fetch, Glimpse, elf, Symbiote - I think this is keepable vs Enchantress, trying to fish out another hand with more gas might be risky if I whiff on lands... keep.
Opp: fetch, forest, accel.
Me: Draw: Fetch. Play fetch, elf.
Opp: Chrome Mox (Presence), cast Presence.
Me: Draw: Terastadon >:D, play fetch, attack for 1.
Opp: Sterling Grove, Plains, go.
Me: Draw: Visionary - start to gain Glimpse to dig for mana.
Opp: EOT, tutor for Humility, play Humility...

several turns later, Grip Humility, untap, go off, destroy Moat, Elephant Grass x2, Sigil of the Throne, attack with my deck.
Winning!

Round 3 - Doomsday - GULP! at least I win the die roll, which means he's behind half a turn.
Game 1 - starts off with Tundra into cantrips three times before going off on turn 2. *me'h*
SB: ??? I have nothing relevant.
Game 2 - Turn 1 DD for Emrakul, turn 2 Shelldock, turn 3 Emrakul for him.
Turn 1 Elves, turn 2 Lord, turn 3, double pact and attack for 6 to put him at 3. (getting Ranger + Warcaller)

I lose to double Pact trigger.

Ya, always half a turn behind. =\

Round 4 - NO Show
Game 1 - lose to Pro.
Game 2 - Turn 2 Buried Alive gets tehre
Game 3 - lose to Pro.

[lorddotm]

Isn't the 4th important for when your Buried Alive gets countered?

[Koby]

If it's getting countered, then it gets countered. They're still in the deck at that point, and a live draw. If i suspect it might not resolve, I could always bait with Glimpse :)

I think Cabal Therapy needs to be in the SB as disruption, cutting 1 VShaman, 1 Vengevine, 1 KGrip, and 1 Terastadon.

[k2thej]

If it's getting countered, then it gets countered. They're still in the deck at that point, and a live draw. If i suspect it might not resolve, I could always bait with Glimpse :)

I think Cabal Therapy needs to be in the SB as disruption, cutting 1 VShaman, 1 Vengevine, 1 KGrip, and 1 Terastadon.

I'm very interested to see how therapy works out for you. Def post results. You think therapy over thoughtseize?

[1maarten1]

What are you guys thoughts on Gleeful Sabotage vs Krosan grip?

And is it possible to do the following:
Me Gleeful Sabotage your CB, he goes E.Tutor (for CB or smthn else cmc 2) Is it possible to respond to the tutor with conspire putting the copy on top of the stack to destroy the CB before Tutor resolves?

It also dodges FoW thanks to conspire, but Krosan grip does that job also ofcourse. I think Gleeful Sabotage might be better in a Wirewood Hivemaster build then in the wish/emrakul build but I didnt test this.

[raudo]

I have the feeling that Lead the Stampede is the bomb in this deck. Ordered 4 foil and I will test it. What do you think?

[k2thej]

I have the feeling that Lead the Stampede is the bomb in this deck. Ordered 4 foil and I will test it. What do you think?

It is a worse sylvan messenger, which already sucks in combo, so no, it's not good.

It might be handy in Aggro Elves though. I could see a deck running it and sylvan messenger and generating some really good card advantage that way.

[catmint]

Me Gleeful Sabotage your CB, he goes E.Tutor (for CB or smthn else cmc 2) Is it possible to respond to the tutor with conspire putting the copy on top of the stack to destroy the CB before Tutor resolves?

Not sure but I don't think it works. You have to use conspire as you cast the spell, so after the spell & the copy is on the stack, he plays e. tutor in response.

[k2thej]

hi, 1st time poster but i'm the kid who top16'd the last 5k with intuition elves.

i don't understand your deck at all.
you play 1 bayou and 1 quirion ranger. do you just expect to never see wasteland at all? you do realize you CAN combo on turn 2 with ranger right?
Geez you must REALLY want a turn 1 elf with the 7 you dont actually need. And beside 7 games out of 10 quirion ranger is the exact same thing as a llanowar elf, except you can activate it even if you play it on turn 2.
2 fauna shaman? Does it actually achieve anything in your deck besides a removal target? Have you ever filtered out the 12 llanowar elves in your deck for symbiotes and sentinels? Fauna shaman is 4 or go home.
I laugh at the combination of vengevine AND vexing shusher in your board. You clearly have never vengevined a counterbalance player(probably because the deck is soo ill equipped to deal with any countermagic whatsoever and your grave engines are clearly lacking)
on that note, burried alive is literally awful. it's far from inutition because it can't get anything EXCEPT vengevine. like what happens after resolving buried alive #1? do the rest just sit in your hand as you attempt to cantrip off visionary in game 3 vs anyone with a brain?
1 Cradle? Have you READ what that card DOES? What are you afraid of opening with 2 in your hand? The upsides of the card are so high i will always register a list with 4. I won so many matches with turn 1 dork, turn 2 dork, cradle, fauna shaman it's redic.
Most of all, you chose to play black and kept literally the best card for the deck out of it, Thoughtsieze. Why even bother? Do you know how sick thoughtsieze is in the combo matchup? Especially if you just bring in cabal therapy/witnesses from the board and completely grind them out.
You choose to play a bunch of 3of's in your board without intuition why? You have fauna shaman at your disposal and you activley choose not to play silver bullet creatures like Viridan Zealot, Filth and E.Witness for a 5th glimpse??
Why on earth is there a terrastadon in your board? The only creatures you ever wanna cast/get for 7+ mana is PRO or Regal Force, because BOTH win you the game. Terrastadon SLOWS your clock down considerably for a VERY marginal effect.

Your list is so suboptimal all your results do not tell you ANYTHING VALID about the deck.
Embarassing to say the least.


Hi Dave. Welcome to the forum, please refrain from being a douche in the future.

Though you did top 16, and I have a few similar gripes with ruckus' list to you, I'd like to start by drawing attention to the fact that you clearly did not make this post to say anything productive. The phrasing of your post does one thing: attempts to make you feel good about yourself for top 16ing. Posts here are to better the deck, not to attack people's lists.

Sidenote: What happens after you resolve buried alive #1? Umm....you win?



Frankly, the intuition list occasionally squeaks by to top 16, but let me say this, the intuition build is the definition of suboptimal.

Test this MD, and tell me it isn't better. If you are not comboing turn 2 nearly half the time, you don't know how to play elves.

4 Birchlore Rangers
3 Elvish Archdruid
4 Elvish Visionary
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Heritage Druid
1 Joraga Warcaller
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Quirion Ranger
1 Regal Force
4 Wirewood Symbiote

4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Summoner's Pact

2 Bayou
5 Forest
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs

[Koby]

hi, 1st time poster but i'm still a kid

Hi "Daveslusher"

Welcome to The Source. May I suggest to be more constructive rather than ranty?

I implore you to read through the thread and read through the discussions. Many of these have already been addressed.
I'm going to assume that you're the Elves player from SCG Open @ Edison, since no other Elves deck squeeked into Top 16 since Nass and Hatch, and I'm 100% certain you're neither.

Nice deck btw, I'm glad to see you cut Nass' Brainstorms. - Why did you choose to run only 9 elves (Llanowar, Fyndhorn, Ranger), when you're griping about me running 1 Ranger (8 total with mana dorks)?

[Daveslusher]

to start off, i'm blunt. if you cant take the points i'm trying to make then so be it. Sorry for making me seem like a douchebag but the intent was to make the list better.

To start off, I'm blunt. If in four years of lurking all of your seven attempts at posting have only fueled stupid flamewars then so be it. Sorry for making me seem like a martinet but the intent is to make the site better.

~NC



Sidenote: What happens after you resolve buried alive #1? Umm....you win?


the point im trying to make is if they have a way to dealing with vengevine with say a crypt or 2 blockers, 1 with an active jitte, what do the other buried alives do for you? every card in your deck needs to be live in control matchups.

As for the list you presented me, i did some digging with elves before the 5k and i found matt nass' list to just be better against the format. Yes potency is very nice but sometimes they have all the answers and you need to attack then from a different angle(counterbalance, 4c landstill etc.)

It's still the same elf combo deck, you just give yourself outs to a bunch of game breaking spells(CB, Show+Tell, EE) by having all the answers(Vengevine destroys any form of counterbalance lock, You can fauna shaman for regal force in response to show and tell and draw like 5 cards, and 1/3 of your deck is now immune to EEon1)



Nice deck btw, I'm glad to see you cut Nass' Brainstorms. - Why did you choose to run only 9 elves (Llanowar, Fyndhorn, Ranger), when you're griping about me running 1 Ranger (8 total with mana dorks)?

im griping about the 1 ranger because its your best llanowar elf effect.
not to mention if you play a llanowar elf on turn 1 and a ranger on turn 2 you can almost always combo.

[k2thej]

It's still the same elf combo deck, you just give yourself outs to a bunch of game breaking spells(CB, Show+Tell, EE) by having all the answers(Vengevine destroys any form of counterbalance lock, You can fauna shaman for regal force in response to show and tell and draw like 5 cards, and 1/3 of your deck is now immune to EEon1)


It's not the same elf combo deck when I run 29 one drop creatures AND 4 summoner's pact and you run 21 creatures and no pact. This difference is huge. This translates to 33 one drops when comboing vs 21. Not to mention leaving out the cradles means 4 more non dead mid-combo draws for my build. Your combo speed and consistency is just too low. It is a classic case of deck ADD.

[kyller83]

did you stop running the wish package k2thej?

[k2thej]

did you stop running the wish package k2thej?

In the interest of addressing more threats I've been testing a non-wish build as well. Still testing, but I like the idea of vv in the board.

[Koby]

@ Wish package:

When I was playing I noticed how awful it is to have to draw Emrakul when you're combing off. There was one game where I had to draw my deck to draw the emrakul, then discard it to prevent decking myself at the end of the turn. Being able to Wish for it (and 3 Wishes are more common than 1 Emrakul) makes the game progress faster, but it's pretty much academic at that point.

I like the utility that Wish adds (like being able to get Cradle when we otherwise don't run any), but it only works in the highly-dedicated Combo lists. It becomes worse when boarding into VV, as you lose out on a lot of sideboard room.

[lep]

In SCG:DC I played against someone who was playing a standard build as far as I could tell but it ran Vengevine and Mirror Entity. It worked pretty well for him. But I have some questions for the experts...

Is there a concensus about running Vengevine main? With or without Fauna Shaman? I like the Vengevine package but Shaman seems too slow.

Mirror Entity? Seems like a solid pick with the massive amount of mana that can be generated and it can be supported on a sole Savannah with Birchlore support.

7 the magic number with fetches? Gaea's Cradle also seems to be under debate.

[k2thej]

In SCG:DC I played against someone who was playing a standard build as far as I could tell but it ran Vengevine and Mirror Entity. It worked pretty well for him. But I have some questions for the experts...

Is there a concensus about running Vengevine main? With or without Fauna Shaman? I like the Vengevine package but Shaman seems too slow.

Mirror Entity? Seems like a solid pick with the massive amount of mana that can be generated and it can be supported on a sole Savannah with Birchlore support.

7 the magic number with fetches? Gaea's Cradle also seems to be under debate.

Shaman is absolutely too slow main. Because of that, Vengevine in the board is the better option. Your combo consistency goes way up.

Mirror entity is really not good. It is essentially a wincon. If you play the deck right, you should never need more mana. the only non wincon advantage is the combo with symbiote during an active glimpse, and even then curio would be better. It's not good.

I don't run cradle. I think in order to make cradle useful you need to have multiples or multiple crop rotations, and like I said, you shouldn't need the mana. I can see why the intuition build would benefit from it a lot, but that build is much slower. You don't need cradle, you do need one drops, and the spots used for cradle/crop rotation would almost always be better off as one drops.

[lep]

Shaman is absolutely too slow main. Because of that, Vengevine in the board is the better option. Your combo consistency goes way up.

Mirror entity is really not good. It is essentially a wincon. If you play the deck right, you should never need more mana. the only non wincon advantage is the combo with symbiote during an active glimpse, and even then curio would be better. It's not good.

I don't run cradle. I think in order to make cradle useful you need to have multiples or multiple crop rotations, and like I said, you shouldn't need the mana. I can see why the intuition build would benefit from it a lot, but that build is much slower. You don't need cradle, you do need one drops, and the spots used for cradle/crop rotation would almost always be better off as one drops.

So your primary plan is to drop an Emrakul after a ton of elves then turning them sideways in your free turn?

[Koby]

So your primary plan is to drop an Emrakul after a ton of elves then turning them sideways in your free turn?

That's correct.

[k2thej]

That's correct.

Let's not forget turning Emrakul sideways with his annihilator 6 of course! It gets around anything that might stop you aside from peacekeeper/blazing archon.

[Koby]

And Humility... but that's what Krosan Grip is for :)

[k2thej]

And Humility... but that's what Krosan Grip is for :)

It's true, you'd never even be able to cast Emrakul with humility in play though.

[Hawdes]

It's true, you'd never even be able to cast Emrakul with humility in play though.

Cradle anyone? :tongue:

[k2thej]

Cradle anyone? :tongue:

How are you going to get 15 guys in play with an active humility? Anyway, doesn't matter. Not a relevant argument.

[Darklingske]

Yesterday I had an epic turn against the NO Bant list that finished high last SCG Open. He plays T2 Emrakul via S&T. I start comboing during my turn 2, but fizzle because I drew 3 lands in a row. He attacks with Cthulhu but I manage to survive with a mana elf, ranger and a land. On my turn I start to go off again, draw the singleton Ulamog, play it & destroy Cthulhu, cast living wish for Emrakul AND cast him. Turn later, attack for a billion damage with elves and Cthulhu. GG
My opponent went from "Yay, I win" to "WT* happened???" Everybody were laughing their butts off.

[Hawdes]

How are you going to get 15 guys in play with an active humility? Anyway, doesn't matter. Not a relevant argument.

Sometimes I just wish people could lighten up...

[k2thej]

Yesterday I had an epic turn against the NO Bant list that finished high last SCG Open. He plays T2 Emrakul via S&T. I start comboing during my turn 2, but fizzle because I drew 3 lands in a row. He attacks with Cthulhu but I manage to survive with a mana elf, ranger and a land. On my turn I start to go off again, draw the singleton Ulamog, play it & destroy Cthulhu, cast living wish for Emrakul AND cast him. Turn later, attack for a billion damage with elves and Cthulhu. GG
My opponent went from "Yay, I win" to "WT* happened???" Everybody were laughing their butts off.

That is awesome. Love the ability to come back from nothing like that. When you say Cthulhu you mean Emrakul right? Are you playing the wish build or do you have an Ulamog main?

[Darklingske]

When you say Cthulhu you mean Emrakul right? Are you playing the wish build or do you have an Ulamog main?

Yes, cthulhu is Emrakul. And I'm playing the wish build, but I've got a singleton Ulamog main just for the special occasions :)

[k2thej]

Yes, cthulhu is Emrakul. And I'm playing the wish build, but I've got a singleton Ulamog main just for the special occasions :)

As awesome as that play is, how often do you wish Ulamaog was a one-drop?

[Darklingske]

As awesome as that play is, how often do you wish Ulamaog was a one-drop?

Actually, he nevers bothers me. I have never drawn him when I didn't needed it. Maybe I'm just very lucky?

[k2thej]

Actually, he nevers bothers me. I have never drawn him when I didn't needed it. Maybe I'm just very lucky?

Do some goldfishing on your own and whenever you draw ulamog write down if you are happy or unhappy that you did (which I imagine would be whether or not you can cast him). After you draw him, say, 30 times, you should have a pretty good idea of whether or not he is worthwhile.

[Beautiful-Decay]

Would add'ing a Anger in SB for wishbuild be good? - it could make our llanowars free with Fauna shaman but more important, turn our lords into "Cradles" though it require a discard outlet (i've seen a few use Fauna Shaman.)

[Darklingske]

Would add'ing a Anger in SB for wishbuild be good? - it could make our llanowars free with Fauna shaman but more important, turn our lords into "Cradles" though it require a discard outlet (i've seen a few use Fauna Shaman.)

As you say. It requires a discard outlet. What we try to do is generate lots of mana through heritage druid. In that way, anger is just a wasted spot during the combo since he's not an elf. And discarding him through Fauna Shaman means turn 3 the earliest. And normally you should be busy comboing during that turn. So, I don't think (actually, I'm 100% sure) he belongs in this build.

[k2thej]

As you say. It requires a discard outlet. What we try to do is generate lots of mana through heritage druid. In that way, anger is just a wasted spot during the combo since he's not an elf. And discarding him through Fauna Shaman means turn 3 the earliest. And normally you should be busy comboing during that turn. So, I don't think (actually, I'm 100% sure) he belongs in this build.

Ya as I have said before, the build is designed so all your creatures can function as if they have haste with heritage, birchlore, and the untappers. Visionary and regal have triggers when they come into play. So the deck functions as if it had haste without actually wasting a spot on getting haste. That's the beauty of it. Once heritage is in, giving your dudes haste would be a useless play.

[Hawdes]

So... This is the list I'm spinning at the moment... And it works pretty well.



//land\\
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Gaea's Cradle
2 Bayou
5 Forest
1 Dryad Arbor

//creature\\
4 Llanowar Elves
3 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Heritage Druid
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Wirewood Symbiote
3 Birchlore Rangers
3 Quirion Ranger
2 Elvish Archdruid
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Ezuri, Renegade Leader
1 Regal Force

//sorcery\\
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Living Wish

//sideboard\\
3 Vengevine
3 Buried Alive
3 Krosan Grip
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Masticore
1 Nullmage Shepherd
1 Gaea's Cradle

2 flex slots :
1 Elvish Champion
1 Regal Force



The list spins pretty good. But when I'm facing the basic sweepers as Perish, Firespout, E.Plague and such, it simply wrecks me...
I've been playing against some decks packing Chalice main and it's such a screw over @ 1 that I simply don't want to play magic anymore.

My meta consists of:
Rock
CB-Top
Mimic homebrew (B/W)
Mill - Hedron Crab
Food Chain - Pestermite - Kiki-Jiki
Aluren
Various Tempo decks
Merfolks

Krosan grip has proven to be house in this meta since a lot of the decks run various enchantments that you want to kill as fast as possible... But the rest I'm not sure of...
I know that I don't run the typical Summoner's Pact list but I find GSZ to be more powerfull and even through the game than the Pact itself...

Any input, good or bad, would be appriciated.

[k2thej]

So... This is the list I'm spinning at the moment... And it works pretty well.



//land\\
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Gaea's Cradle
2 Bayou
5 Forest
1 Dryad Arbor

//creature\\
4 Llanowar Elves
3 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Heritage Druid
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Wirewood Symbiote
3 Birchlore Rangers
3 Quirion Ranger
2 Elvish Archdruid
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Ezuri, Renegade Leader
1 Regal Force

//sorcery\\
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Living Wish

//sideboard\\
3 Vengevine
3 Buried Alive
3 Krosan Grip
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Masticore
1 Nullmage Shepherd
1 Gaea's Cradle

2 flex slots :
1 Elvish Champion
1 Regal Force



The list spins pretty good. But when I'm facing the basic sweepers as Perish, Firespout, E.Plague and such, it simply wrecks me...
I've been playing against some decks packing Chalice main and it's such a screw over @ 1 that I simply don't want to play magic anymore.

My meta consists of:
Rock
CB-Top
Mimic homebrew (B/W)
Mill - Hedron Crab
Food Chain - Pestermite - Kiki-Jiki
Aluren
Various Tempo decks
Merfolks

Krosan grip has proven to be house in this meta since a lot of the decks run various enchantments that you want to kill as fast as possible... But the rest I'm not sure of...
I know that I don't run the typical Summoner's Pact list but I find GSZ to be more powerfull and even through the game than the Pact itself...

Any input, good or bad, would be appriciated.

Why on earth aren't you running summoner's pact? They let you bounce back so much faster since you can often combo a full turn earlier with one of those in hand instead of a GSZ

[Hawdes]

Why on earth aren't you running summoner's pact? They let you bounce back so much faster since you can often combo a full turn earlier with one of those in hand instead of a GSZ

I've already explained why x posts back... Why I don't runt summoner's... But hey. If it's too much to ask from people to read a post. Then I'll repeat myself...
All experience I've had with the Summoner's Pact are either losing to the upkeep costs since they counter the piece I'm tutoring for. I know that it's faster and more explosive (I've played with it for a long time) but it's not as stable imo until you actually go off.
Or that it sits in your and and you're missing x pieces and only have y tutors...

GSZ gives you the ability to find some key pieces when you just can't go ALL IN on your pacts and hope it will work.

[k2thej]

I've already explained why x posts back... Why I don't runt summoner's... But hey. If it's too much to ask from people to read a post. Then I'll repeat myself...
All experience I've had with the Summoner's Pact are either losing to the upkeep costs since they counter the piece I'm tutoring for. I know that it's faster and more explosive (I've played with it for a long time) but it's not as stable imo until you actually go off.
Or that it sits in your and and you're missing x pieces and only have y tutors...

GSZ gives you the ability to find some key pieces when you just can't go ALL IN on your pacts and hope it will work.

I've said this before too but I just really do not understand why people need tutors before they go off. If you are going off turn 2 or 3, what do you need before the turn you go off?

[Darklingske]

So... This is the list I'm spinning at the moment... And it works pretty well.

1 Ezuri, Renegade Leader

4 Green Sun's Zenith

The list spins pretty good. But when I'm facing the basic sweepers as Perish, Firespout, E.Plague and such, it simply wrecks me...
I've been playing against some decks packing Chalice main and it's such a screw over @ 1 that I simply don't want to play magic anymore.
I know that I don't run the typical Summoner's Pact list but I find GSZ to be more powerfull and even through the game than the Pact itself...

Any input, good or bad, would be appriciated.

I've played GSZ also, but I removed it because it felt too much as tempo loss during the combo. Every time I used it during the combo I wished it was a Pact. I know that it sometimes is a risk to play more then 1 pact during the combo, but don't you hate it when you GSZ for an elf and don't draw from a glimpse? And if this question is a No from your side, could you elaborate a bit? And why do you play an Ezuri? Is he only for the overrun?
On regards of the sweepers: If your meta is indeed heavily populated with sweepers, why not change the Ezuri to a Caller of the Claw?
Chalice @ 1 is indeed a pain and nuisance, but can be annulled through Leyline of lifeforce or Vexing Susher. Maybe changing the Champion & Nullmage for Susher?

[Neil]

So... This is the list I'm spinning at the moment... And it works pretty well.



//land\\
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Gaea's Cradle
2 Bayou
5 Forest
1 Dryad Arbor

//creature\\
4 Llanowar Elves
3 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Heritage Druid
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Wirewood Symbiote
3 Birchlore Rangers
3 Quirion Ranger
2 Elvish Archdruid
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Ezuri, Renegade Leader
1 Regal Force

//sorcery\\
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Living Wish

//sideboard\\
3 Vengevine
3 Buried Alive
3 Krosan Grip
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Masticore
1 Nullmage Shepherd
1 Gaea's Cradle

2 flex slots :
1 Elvish Champion
1 Regal Force



The list spins pretty good. But when I'm facing the basic sweepers as Perish, Firespout, E.Plague and such, it simply wrecks me...
I've been playing against some decks packing Chalice main and it's such a screw over @ 1 that I simply don't want to play magic anymore.

My meta consists of:
Rock
CB-Top
Mimic homebrew (B/W)
Mill - Hedron Crab
Food Chain - Pestermite - Kiki-Jiki
Aluren
Various Tempo decks
Merfolks

Krosan grip has proven to be house in this meta since a lot of the decks run various enchantments that you want to kill as fast as possible... But the rest I'm not sure of...
I know that I don't run the typical Summoner's Pact list but I find GSZ to be more powerfull and even through the game than the Pact itself...

Any input, good or bad, would be appriciated.


My meta is also sweeper heavy. I also have to play a game against chalice of the void @ 1 pretty much every weekend. I don't think running living wish and Gaea's Cradle main deck is a smart idea. Like most other people said don't run GSZ instead of summoner's pact. I found Viridian shaman in the sideboard really nice against chalice @ 1. I would suggest replacing the Nullmage with Viridian shaman. Also since pretty much all board sweepers are sorcerys try to go off in one turn without playing to many creatures the turn before. Another reason you don't need GSZ. You really should run joraga main deck he is great against firespout. I think he is a lot better than Ezuri. Again practice comboing off in one turn without playing that many elves the turn before.

[NihilObstat]

So... This is the list I'm spinning at the moment... And it works pretty well.
The list spins pretty good. But when I'm facing the basic sweepers as Perish, Firespout, E.Plague and such, it simply wrecks me...
I've been playing against some decks packing Chalice main and it's such a screw over @ 1 that I simply don't want to play magic anymore.

I know that I don't run the typical Summoner's Pact list but I find GSZ to be more powerfull and even through the game than the Pact itself...

With 4 GSZ and 1 Viridian shaman or Viridian Zealot you should be better than anyone not running GSZ to play against Chalice at 1, you have 5 shots maindeck at destroying it. Don't complain.

Anyway, I don't like the idea of not running Pact, for it is one of the best cards in the deck. My thought is usually on the 4-6 tutor, but we must run at least 3 Pacts. If you feel you tend to die to pact, play the deck for half a year non-stop, then you won't do anymore. You'll know when to Pact and when not to. If you don't like it 100% as I do not either, run 3 of them as I do. Good number.

Also, where are your Visionaries?? She is probably on the most important elves in the combo.


TO k2thej: Again, I don't understand why you keep saying that we always go off on turn 2 o 3. That just doesn't happen. There is FOW, Swords to plowhares, Lightning Bolt, Daze, Path, Thoughtseize, Hymn to toruch, Chalice, Trinisphere, ANT, which are WIDELY seen that stop us from doing that. I just hate it when you say we combo off 2nd turn. That only happens against Monogreen decks........

[vbalakri]

I apologize if I sound confrontational, but srsly, this discussion is going in the wrong direction. Simply put, pure Combo Elves is not a real deck. Vengevine Elves is closer to a real deck, and could be a real deck if the right configuration is found, or is in a favorable meta.

Here are my thoughts on Elves!

1) Green Sun's Zenith? I don't want to play this card unless I'm also playing Cloudstone Curio, so that I can set up the loop kill. Otherwise, I'd rather just cast the creatures I was fetching, a job which Summoner's Pact does better for a pure combo.

2) Buried Alive/Vengevine? For real? Why not just Intuition/Vengevine, which also tutors for pieces of the combo? It's not like you guys are playing Thoughtseize out of the board or anything. I think elves without Intuition/Vengevine (or at least some sort of Vengevine plan) in the main is just a worse ANT, since you can't legitimately threaten to beat most decks with just elves.

3) I guess Emrakul is fine. I like 1 Birchlore Ranger/1 Grapeshot myself if you're going for a kill condition--and at that, I don't feel the need for an actual kill against most decks, even post board. Having a same turn kill is a necessary evil, I think, as a concession to Perish/Other sweepers and Combo existing in the format, but don't you guys look to your same turn kill as the first thing you can board out, if at all possible. Also, Emrakul is always 15 mana. Grapeshot can sometimes be mised for 5 or 6.

My list, taken to 1st at 25 person tournament:


3 Llanowar Elves
3 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Heritage Druid
2 Elvish Visionary
4 Vengevine
1 Birchlore Rangers
1 Regal Force

4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Intuition
1 Crop Rotation
1 Grapeshot

1 Gaea's Cradle
3 Tropical Island
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
5 Forest

Sideboard:
4 Natural Order
1 Progenitus
1 Terastodon
2 Relic of Progenitus
3 Elvish Archdruid
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Viridian Zealot
2 Spell Pierce

[Koby]

2) Buried Alive/Vengevine? For real? Why not just Intuition/Vengevine, which also tutors for pieces of the combo? It's not like you guys are playing Thoughtseize out of the board or anything. I think elves without Intuition/Vengevine (or at least some sort of Vengevine plan) in the main is just a worse ANT, since you can't legitimately threaten to beat most decks with just elves.


I stated a few posts back that Buried Alive functions very similar to Intuition with VVs, but should only be considered with Thoughtseize/Cabal Therapy, as the former is a narrower card than Intuition. Intuition is indeed stronger, but you don't get much more utility out of the blue splash which now makes your mana base vulnerable to Wasteland. The black splash gives you better SB cards with the discard.

[k2thej]

TO k2thej: Again, I don't understand why you keep saying that we always go off on turn 2 o 3. That just doesn't happen. There is FOW, Swords to plowhares, Lightning Bolt, Daze, Path, Thoughtseize, Hymn to toruch, Chalice, Trinisphere, ANT, which are WIDELY seen that stop us from doing that. I just hate it when you say we combo off 2nd turn. That only happens against Monogreen decks........

I didn't say always but it sure is the vast majority of the time (80-85%). If you feel your goldfish is slower than that, it is probably because you run a slower list than mine. I go off turn 2 against all kinds of deck. countertop, merfolk, gobs, zoo, etc. You just have to play it smart, and like ruckus said above, hold as many guys in hand as you can in the first two turns unless you are going to go off.

@vbalakri- I get very frustrated when people say x is "not a real deck." Anything can become a "real" deck, if by real you mean places in tournaments. I agree that pure combo elves has not had any major accomplishments, but I disagree that this means it won't in the future. VV does seem like a really good idea, but I think intuition main might be just a bit too slow for the combo.

[vbalakri]

I stated a few posts back that Buried Alive functions very similar to Intuition with VVs, but should only be considered with Thoughtseize/Cabal Therapy, as the former is a narrower card than Intuition. Intuition is indeed stronger, but you don't get much more utility out of the blue splash which now makes your mana base vulnerable to Wasteland. The black splash gives you better SB cards with the discard.

Fair.

I'm still of the opinion that Intuition is the better option--I feel like I get enough utility out of the blue splash (cards I've intuitioned for: VV, Glimpse, Quirion Ranger, Wirewood Symbiote, Natural Order, and Elvish Archdruid) that Intuition alone is worth having a slightly more vulnerable mana base. I guess I don't like the lack of disruption that I'm able to run, but I sort of see Elves as a better Zoo deck--able to clock as an aggro deck with Vengevine, and rather than burn, having the ability to "just get them" with the combo--rather than a combo deck. And in that light, I'm OK not having the appropriate disruption against ANT, e.g., since I don't really plan to beat that deck other than by mising a combo win.

On a side note, I bascially hate NO/Prog. It's just sooo slow, and doesn't even actually get the decks you want it to, since most of them bring in Perish.

[Hawdes]

With 4 GSZ and 1 Viridian shaman or Viridian Zealot you should be better than anyone not running GSZ to play against Chalice at 1, you have 5 shots maindeck at destroying it. Don't complain.

Anyway, I don't like the idea of not running Pact, for it is one of the best cards in the deck. My thought is usually on the 4-6 tutor, but we must run at least 3 Pacts. If you feel you tend to die to pact, play the deck for half a year non-stop, then you won't do anymore. You'll know when to Pact and when not to. If you don't like it 100% as I do not either, run 3 of them as I do. Good number.

Also, where are your Visionaries?? She is probably on the most important elves in the combo.


TO k2thej: Again, I don't understand why you keep saying that we always go off on turn 2 o 3. That just doesn't happen. There is FOW, Swords to plowhares, Lightning Bolt, Daze, Path, Thoughtseize, Hymn to toruch, Chalice, Trinisphere, ANT, which are WIDELY seen that stop us from doing that. I just hate it when you say we combo off 2nd turn. That only happens against Monogreen decks........

I have the visionaries... Just forgot to write them down...
But yeah... I'll check all the replys and tinker around a bit... Appriciate the input from everyone. It's constructive atleast! :)

[Neil]

I didn't say always but it sure is the vast majority of the time (80-85%). If you feel your goldfish is slower than that, it is probably because you run a slower list than mine. I go off turn 2 against all kinds of deck. countertop, merfolk, gobs, zoo, etc. You just have to play it smart, and like ruckus said above, hold as many guys in hand as you can in the first two turns unless you are going to go off.

@vbalakri- I get very frustrated when people say x is "not a real deck." Anything can become a "real" deck, if by real you mean places in tournaments. I agree that pure combo elves has not had any major accomplishments, but I disagree that this means it won't in the future. VV does seem like a really good idea, but I think intuition main might be just a bit too slow for the combo.

Honestly pure combo elves is just as good as VV elves. My deck tied the VV elves in the SCG San Jose but just had a really bad tie-breaker. I didn't even run living wish back then so now the deck has gotten much better. I think VV in SB might be okay but it doesn't look like a must.

[vbalakri]

Honestly pure combo elves is just as good as VV elves. My deck tied the VV elves in the SCG San Jose but just had a really bad tie-breaker. I didn't even run living wish back then so now the deck has gotten much better. I think VV in SB might be okay but it doesn't look like a must.

My issue with Combo Elves/No VV is that it feels like a worse combo than something like Belcher or ANT or Doomsday. Yes, it loses to different disruption, yes it still has a marginal at best beatdown plan.

But in the end, aren't you the most cold to Counterbalance+Top, and aren't you basically cold to your opponent cutting away Glimpse?

I think the difference in opinion is in my approach to the deck: I don't think Elves combo is the best thing ever, just another combo which is too fragile to exist safely in legacy. I do think that the Vengevine plan is the best beatdown plan that exists in legacy, bar none (it's nearly as fast as Zoo, and is far more resilient, since, well, Vengevine keeps coming back). In that light, the Elves! shell is really good, because it allows you to simply combo people out, giving free wins, and forces people to respect the combo, because it is quite consistent. If they disrupt just the Vengevine plan, they will die on turn 4-5 to a flurry of green spells.

Basically, this: I would rather 8 spells that demand a counter (Glimpse/Intuition) than 4 (just glimpse).

[Koby]

I have been testing a list with 4 Gaea's Cradle and 17 lands total (13 other lands), and I have not had significant trouble with mana. I have played close to 20 games tonite, and not once did I get only Cradle in the opening hand.

It may warrant a 2nd look, as the benefits of the mana boost outweighs the opening hand issues.

[k2thej]

I have been testing a list with 4 Gaea's Cradle and 17 lands total (13 other lands), and I have not had significant trouble with mana. I have played close to 20 games tonite, and not once did I get only Cradle in the opening hand.

It may warrant a 2nd look, as the benefits of the mana boost outweighs the opening hand issues.

My issue with 4 cradles wasn't the opening hand, it is the dead draws while comboing. Have you had trouble with this?

[NihilObstat]

I didn't say always but it sure is the vast majority of the time (80-85%). If you feel your goldfish is slower than that, it is probably because you run a slower list than mine. I go off turn 2 against all kinds of deck. countertop, merfolk, gobs, zoo, etc. You just have to play it smart, and like ruckus said above, hold as many guys in hand as you can in the first two turns unless you are going to go off.

K2thej, by your reply, I understand the following.

That you "go off" 80-85% of time even if they play any of the cards I stated before, or that even if they do or don't you are good to go by turn 3, 80% of the time. Let's also say then that while comboing you don't fizzle again 85% of the time.

That would mean that your deck combos off through anything 75% by turn 2 or 3. And then the rest of the games you can fall back upon aggro or luckily combo again if they stop you the first time, let's say 35% percent of the time minimum.

That would make your list one of the best decks in legacy, or maybe even the one with best stats ever. Just as good as ANT first turns, but without any possible turn 1s, and almost as good as Zoo in the later turns going aggro. That would make us the deck with the best stats ever.

Considering that ANT is this month's 4th deck placing and Zoo has been number 1, why aren't we just like them? What I mean to say. I know our deck is really good, but we can't just say that it works 85%. Those statistics are unrealistic. The cards I wrote hurt us a lot and are played a lot.


TO BVALAKRI: If elves isn't a real deck why is it this month's 6th deck with most top8 in the world ?? http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/metagame.php?format=Legacy

Also, if it isn't a real deck, why do you even bother coming to this threat and wasting your time thinking about it, go play something Real.

What I am merely trying to tell to you both, is that you have to be more constructive. Don't attack and don't brag.


By the way, I haven't had much time to test lately, and I'm playing a tourny this weekend. I think I'll test the Wish list in the tourny, so what was your guys' last wish list looking like, prior to testing Vengevine??

[vbalakri]

TO BVALAKRI: If elves isn't a real deck why is it this month's 6th deck with most top8 in the world ?? http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/metagame.php?format=Legacy

Also, if it isn't a real deck, why do you even bother coming to this threat and wasting your time thinking about it, go play something Real.

What I am merely trying to tell to you both, is that you have to be more constructive. Don't attack and don't brag.


By the way, I haven't had much time to test lately, and I'm playing a tourny this weekend. I think I'll test the Wish list in the tourny, so what was your guys' last wish list looking like, prior to testing Vengevine??

Because, erm, I'm advocating a different version of Combo Elves? I'm really just going "No, I don't believe that trying to Combo them out every game is what I want to do." I want to be attacking with Vengevines, and the Combo Elves shell is a very good one to put this plan into. I really doubt that elves can win on a consistent basis when all you can do is combo them out--frankly, the "Beat Down with 1/1s and 2/2s" plan is unexciting at best--and without some sort of backup monster, you end up on this plan altogether too often for me to endorse Elves without Vengevine+Buried Alive/Intuition (I tried Buried Alive--it's the stone nuts when it happens, but I missed the utility of Intuition--I don't begrudge anybody who uses Buried Alive instead of Intuition)

[InResponseForceOfWill]

Newb question I had an "argument" over:

I cast Regal Force and draw, say, 20 cards, but only have, say, 19 cards in my library. Now I don't deck myself until I'm forced to draw, right? Or do I just lose right there?

The other day I played my friend against his casual deck. I almost lost because he dropped Blood Seeker turn one. Hahaha, glad I ran Grapeshot.

[Shawon]

If you're required to draw more cards than are in your library, you lose. Think of recent Spiral Tide casting Blue Sun's Zenith for 48 targeting you, when you have 45 cards in your library.

[k2thej]

K2thej, by your reply, I understand the following.

That you "go off" 80-85% of time even if they play any of the cards I stated before, or that even if they do or don't you are good to go by turn 3, 80% of the time. Let's also say then that while comboing you don't fizzle again 85% of the time.

That would mean that your deck combos off through anything 75% by turn 2 or 3. And then the rest of the games you can fall back upon aggro or luckily combo again if they stop you the first time, let's say 35% percent of the time minimum.

That would make your list one of the best decks in legacy, or maybe even the one with best stats ever. Just as good as ANT first turns, but without any possible turn 1s, and almost as good as Zoo in the later turns going aggro. That would make us the deck with the best stats ever.

Considering that ANT is this month's 4th deck placing and Zoo has been number 1, why aren't we just like them? What I mean to say. I know our deck is really good, but we can't just say that it works 85%. Those statistics are unrealistic. The cards I wrote hurt us a lot and are played a lot.
?

Ant is faster than that. And has my stats but a half a turn faster. I think you are underestimating ANT's speed rather than underestimating my deck's comparablity to it. I average turn 2.6, they average turn 2.2 I believe.

I know you are going to say how ridiculous this sounds, but I really don't fizzle when comboing. when I cast a glimpse I go off 97% of the time according to my goldfish stats. My deck is designed not to fizzle, and it does it's job.

Zoo sucks. I really don't understand why it keeps placing. My only loss to zoo was in a tournament when I was just starting to play elves and I lost to pact. We can beat zoo without glimpse. Actually, without glimpse the match is still in our favor. Our aggro goldfish is faster than theirs. When going aggro, we goldfish turn 4 on average. They are turn 5 if I am not mistaken. Take into account post board and our clock gets even faster with more lords/VV.

Seriously, if you think my stats are wrong, I can do 50 goldfishes later and tell you what I did on each one to prove it.

[Hawdes]

Ant is faster than that. And has my stats but a half a turn faster. I think you are underestimating ANT's speed rather than underestimating my deck's comparablity to it. I average turn 2.6, they average turn 2.2 I believe.

I know you are going to say how ridiculous this sounds, but I really don't fizzle when comboing. when I cast a glimpse I go off 97% of the time according to my goldfish stats. My deck is designed not to fizzle, and it does it's job.

Zoo sucks. I really don't understand why it keeps placing. My only loss to zoo was in a tournament when I was just starting to play elves and I lost to pact. We can beat zoo without glimpse. Actually, without glimpse the match is still in our favor. Our aggro goldfish is faster than theirs. When going aggro, we goldfish turn 4 on average. They are turn 5 if I am not mistaken. Take into account post board and our clock gets even faster with more lords/VV.

Seriously, if you think my stats are wrong, I can do 50 goldfishes later and tell you what I did on each one to prove it.

If I'm not misstaken... Goldfishing means drawing x hands and playing against no one... Unbothered you could win fast and resilient... The thing I'm facing isn't that the deck is bad or fizzles. It's the disruption that just wrecks your plan instantly if they remove a key card or whipes the board...

[k2thej]

If I'm not misstaken... Goldfishing means drawing x hands and playing against no one... Unbothered you could win fast and resilient... The thing I'm facing isn't that the deck is bad or fizzles. It's the disruption that just wrecks your plan instantly if they remove a key card or whipes the board...

Ya you are right. And I realized that I think I see where I was miscommunicating with Nihil. The states I was referencing were for goldfishing. While I do still think the deck is both fast an resilient in tournament environments, the average of a turn 2.6 win is def when goldfishing.

As for dealing with disruption, the best way to do this is to spread out your threats. Make it so you CAN afford to lose any one piece of the deck, or try to get as close to this point as possible.

[Alexeezay]

@vbalakri: I like your list, I'm gonna try out the same style right now. But wouldn't Brain Freeze be better as Grapeshot here? With only 1 Birchlore Range it will be hard to cast Grapeshot...

I also like the Archdruids in the sideboard although I can't find space for them myself.

[TossUsToLions]

How is your aggro plan better than Zoo's? They go t1 Nacatl, pass. You go t1 Llanowar, pass. They bolt your Llanowar, swing for 3. You go Quirion, Heritage Druid. They go Chain Lightning on Druid, swing for three again, drop a goyf. Now, after just a few turns, you have nothing on the field and they have a Nacatl and a goyf. You're also already down 6 life. Things only get worse if they drop a t1 Lavamancer....

I just don't understand how you're saying that you combo off that easily through disruption. If they Swords, Path, Bolt, Daze, etc. any of your creatures on t1/t2, you are NOT going to combo off by turn 2, and probably not by turn 3.

Now say you go first turn mana dork, second turn set up a glimpse, and third turn try to go off with a glimpse and it gets FOW'ed. You are not going to combo off until you draw into one of your three remaining glimpses. And your army of 1/1's will be laughed at by your opponents army of goyfs, War Monks, Pridemages, or you just get hammered by their Progenitus or Emrakul

[vbalakri]

How is your aggro plan better than Zoo's? They go t1 Nacatl, pass. You go t1 Llanowar, pass. They bolt your Llanowar, swing for 3. You go Quirion, Heritage Druid. They go Chain Lightning on Druid, swing for three again, drop a goyf. Now, after just a few turns, you have nothing on the field and they have a Nacatl and a goyf. You're also already down 6 life. Things only get worse if they drop a t1 Lavamancer....

I just don't understand how you're saying that you combo off that easily through disruption. If they Swords, Path, Bolt, Daze, etc. any of your creatures on t1/t2, you are NOT going to combo off by turn 2, and probably not by turn 3.

Now say you go first turn mana dork, second turn set up a glimpse, and third turn try to go off with a glimpse and it gets FOW'ed. You are not going to combo off until you draw into one of your three remaining glimpses. And your army of 1/1's will be laughed at by your opponents army of goyfs, War Monks, Pridemages, or you just get hammered by their Progenitus or Emrakul

I've had this experience many, many times.

This is why I play Vengevines. Having 8 spells that usually win the game on resolution is much, much better than just 4. When I play Zoo, depending on the hand, a) combo them right out, or b) if they can stop the combo with burn (probable), Intuition for Vengevine, and bash people with some plants.

Also, an update to my list: I think it's correct to go -1 Birchlore Rangers, -1 Grapeshot, +2 Elvish Archdruid in the main. Reasoning? When you combo out, you attack with 4 Vengevine+2-3 3/4 power monsters, which is lethal. Against decks that can block, you leave behind enough blockers to stop them, and kill them the next turn. Against decks with Swords, the same thing--what do they do about the rest of the fighters? Against decks with neither, if they survive, they're at a very low life total, and are left with no or fewer ways to combo out (Ad Nauseam and Grim Tutor are turned of, Belcher has to Belch, not Empty the Warrens), or an ineffectual one (e.g. "Emrakul? OK, sac 6 permanents. Are you dead?"). Archdruid also lets us play more Cradle effects without actually playing the land (which I never want more than 2 of).

[k2thej]

How is your aggro plan better than Zoo's? They go t1 Nacatl, pass. You go t1 Llanowar, pass. They bolt your Llanowar, swing for 3. You go Quirion, Heritage Druid. They go Chain Lightning on Druid, swing for three again, drop a goyf. Now, after just a few turns, you have nothing on the field and they have a Nacatl and a goyf. You're also already down 6 life. Things only get worse if they drop a t1 Lavamancer....

I just don't understand how you're saying that you combo off that easily through disruption. If they Swords, Path, Bolt, Daze, etc. any of your creatures on t1/t2, you are NOT going to combo off by turn 2, and probably not by turn 3.

Now say you go first turn mana dork, second turn set up a glimpse, and third turn try to go off with a glimpse and it gets FOW'ed. You are not going to combo off until you draw into one of your three remaining glimpses. And your army of 1/1's will be laughed at by your opponents army of goyfs, War Monks, Pridemages, or you just get hammered by their Progenitus or Emrakul

If you read a few posts back, I corrected myself and said that I was referring to goldfishing. Yes, disruption can stop the combo.

I think the biggest thing overlooked by most people with the pure combo elves build is how fast you can see your glimpses. It's not like you are just waiting to draw them. You can cast a regal on t3 very easily without a glimpse, with or without a lord on the field, and you have 5 chances at a regal force with pacts, and 8 chances if you play the wish build. Add that to the visionaries recurred each turn with symbiotes which is a very easy tech to set up, and you can draw 2-3 extra cards each turn as long as you remember to bounce visionary during their end step so you have an extra symbiote activation. This deck sees a shitload of cards every game, with or without glimpse, and because of this glimpse is very easy to find.

As for removal, you need to learn how to play around it. If you are playing pure combo then play it like a combo deck, expect that there are obstacles for you to work around

This is a ridiculously common aggro play:
T1: dude
T2: dude, heritage (either from another land or through untapping the first dude with a quirion), cast archdruid (or summon archdruid)
T3: drop another dude or lord, swing somewhere between 6 and 16
T4: win
Thats a T4 aggro goldfish that is very, very easy to setup.

[Koby]

Let me throw out a common scenario I've come across:

You're on the draw with an opening hand:
Llanowar Elf, Nettle Sentinel, heritage Druid, Glimpse, and 1 Forest.

Which do you lead off with?

What if the scenario is 2 Forest?

[k2thej]

Let me throw out a common scenario I've come across:

You're on the draw with an opening hand:
Llanowar Elf, Nettle Sentinel, heritage Druid, Glimpse, and 1 Forest.

Which do you lead off with?

What if the scenario is 2 Forest?

Why do you have a 5 card hand haha. Generally I lead with llanowar unless I see a turn 2 combo that can only be set up by leading with someone else. Llanowar is the easiest to recover from losing, so I generally put him out there as fodder for removal.

[ummon]

How is your aggro plan better than Zoo's? They go t1 Nacatl, pass. You go t1 Llanowar, pass. They bolt your Llanowar, swing for 3. You go Quirion, Heritage Druid. They go Chain Lightning on Druid, swing for three again, drop a goyf. Now, after just a few turns, you have nothing on the field and they have a Nacatl and a goyf. You're also already down 6 life. Things only get worse if they drop a t1 Lavamancer....

I just don't understand how you're saying that you combo off that easily through disruption. If they Swords, Path, Bolt, Daze, etc. any of your creatures on t1/t2, you are NOT going to combo off by turn 2, and probably not by turn 3.

Now say you go first turn mana dork, second turn set up a glimpse, and third turn try to go off with a glimpse and it gets FOW'ed. You are not going to combo off until you draw into one of your three remaining glimpses. And your army of 1/1's will be laughed at by your opponents army of goyfs, War Monks, Pridemages, or you just get hammered by their Progenitus or Emrakul

I've played many many games against my brother's elf combo deck with mono-red burn, and I can tell you that while I tend to have the advantage, Elves combo is very resilient to removal. A pure deck can certainly deal with the limited removal that Zoo has.

[NihilObstat]

Because, erm, I'm advocating a different version of Combo Elves? I'm really just going "No, I don't believe that trying to Combo them out every game is what I want to do." I want to be attacking with Vengevines, and the Combo Elves shell is a very good one to put this plan into. I really doubt that elves can win on a consistent basis when all you can do is combo them out--frankly, the "Beat Down with 1/1s and 2/2s" plan is unexciting at best--and without some sort of backup monster, you end up on this plan altogether too often for me to endorse Elves without Vengevine+Buried Alive/Intuition (I tried Buried Alive--it's the stone nuts when it happens, but I missed the utility of Intuition--I don't begrudge anybody who uses Buried Alive instead of Intuition)

I am not saying that the Vengevine + Intuition tech isn't a great idea. I am sure it can also work, but I am trying to make your realize that you should be more polite and check things out before talking non-sense.
So these have all top8ed in this last month, and these are just from one website, I'm sure there are many more, and some of them don't even run glimpse and could be considered plain aggro elves, I'm sure you don't think that "those are decks" either.

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=5719&iddeck=41409
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=5722&iddeck=41425
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=5716&iddeck=41367
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=5732&iddeck=41495
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=5659&iddeck=40945
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=5650&iddeck=40878
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=5610&iddeck=40605

All less than a month. But I guess it is okay, for you to say that without Vengevines we are not a real deck ;)

Also, not running a 1 turn win-con will make you feel ridiculous many games, losing for wining a 1 out of 60 cards consistancy.

I also invite you to actually testing the lists that most people run and see how they do aggro-wise. You'll be surprised. I am suprised myself.


To InResponseForceOfWill: It could have been worse with Pyrostatic Pillar (http://magiccards.info/sc/en/100.html) and this card was actually played in many legacy sides some time ago.

To K2thej: We always have communications problems. So I guess I'm bad at expressing myself in english, or maybe we should try to read each other more calmly.
So what was your lastest Wish list looking like? I thought I saw a list not long ago on here, but I can't find it.
So your stop goldfishing, and playing at least on-line, which is nothing compared to tournaments, but better than goldfishing.

To TossUsToLions: I won twice in a row to a "Punishing Fire, Grove of the Brunwillows, Path, Lightning Bolt" Zoo.

One game he went: Grove + Noble Hierarch. T2/ Land + Hierarch + Punishing (Elf). T3/ Another Grove and another Punishing in Hand, with 2 Hierarch on table. But hey, he had taken so many creatures out of the deck for such removal, that I was able to combo through all that before he killed me. Glimpse, and 5 elves in hand. What I am doing, is showing you the worse possible removal scenario, which I had to face, and telling you that even that is winnable.
Spot removal sure does hurt us, but not quite enough. Only if we are foolish enough to try to combo turn 2-3 against Zoo with mana open.

[NihilObstat]

How is your aggro plan better than Zoo's? They go t1 Nacatl, pass. You go t1 Llanowar, pass. They bolt your Llanowar, swing for 3. You go Quirion, Heritage Druid. They go Chain Lightning on Druid, swing for three again, drop a goyf. Now, after just a few turns, you have nothing on the field and they have a Nacatl and a goyf. You're also already down 6 life. Things only get worse if they drop a t1 Lavamancer....

I just don't understand how you're saying that you combo off that easily through disruption. If they Swords, Path, Bolt, Daze, etc. any of your creatures on t1/t2, you are NOT going to combo off by turn 2, and probably not by turn 3.

Now say you go first turn mana dork, second turn set up a glimpse, and third turn try to go off with a glimpse and it gets FOW'ed. You are not going to combo off until you draw into one of your three remaining glimpses. And your army of 1/1's will be laughed at by your opponents army of goyfs, War Monks, Pridemages, or you just get hammered by their Progenitus or Emrakul

I won twice in a row to a "Punishing Fire, Grove of the Brunwillows, Path, Lightning Bolt" Zoo.

One game he went: Grove + Noble Hierarch. T2/ Land + Hierarch + Punishing (Elf). T3/ Another Grove and another Punishing in Hand, with 2 Hierarch on table. But hey, he had taken so many creatures out of the deck for such removal, that I was able to combo through all that removal before he killed me. What I am trying to do, is showing you the worse possible removal scenario, which I had to face, and telling you that even that is winnable.
Spot removal sure does hurt us, but not quite enough. Only if we are foolish enough to try to combo turn 2-3 against Zoo with mana open.

[TossUsToLions]

I understand it is a winnable matchup, and sometimes a favorable one for some lists. I was merely pointing out a common scenario where we will not combo early on. If we are forced to aggro out against them, though, then it becomes unfavorable because they have a much better aggro plan than most of the "traditional" combo elf decks

[vbalakri]

I am not saying that the Vengevine + Intuition tech isn't a great idea. I am sure it can also work, but I am trying to make your realize that you should be more polite and check things out before talking non-sense.
So these have all top8ed in this last month, and these are just from one website, I'm sure there are many more, and some of them don't even run glimpse and could be considered plain aggro elves, I'm sure you don't think that "those are decks" either.

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=5719&iddeck=41409
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=5722&iddeck=41425
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=5716&iddeck=41367
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=5732&iddeck=41495
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=5659&iddeck=40945
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=5650&iddeck=40878
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=5610&iddeck=40605

All less than a month. But I guess it is okay, for you to say that without Vengevines we are not a real deck ;)

Also, not running a 1 turn win-con will make you feel ridiculous many games, losing for wining a 1 out of 60 cards consistancy.

I also invite you to actually testing the lists that most people run and see how they do aggro-wise. You'll be surprised. I am suprised myself.


I'd concede that in a metagame devoid (or light on) CB/Top, Combo Elves is pretty reasonable, and perhaps the optimal Elves! list. Aggro Elves is a deck, I guess, in the sense that it tries to do something better than other decks: it isn't just a bad goblins, it's goblins with an entirely different set of tools and tutors--I'm perfectly willing to look at those Elves lists, since their plan is so fundamentally different.

As for my own testing with "normal" lists--I played that list to death before Intuition/VV broke. I love the combo to death, and it's pretty cool what you can do--yes, I certainly have out aggro'd Zoo before. But I know from that experience that neither plan is very consistent, and both plans are susceptible to common game 1 disruption, and really, you're trying to mise a win in the next two games against many decks.

I'm just skeptical from my own testing that Combo Elves can ever beat a reasonable CB/Top (Dreadstill/4 color/etc.) deck in a 3 game match, and is a lot weaker to incidental hate--that is to say, Burn and Swords to Plowshares--than most people are willing to admit. In some sense, I look at the top8s these lists are in, and go "Well, if the metagame is favorable..."

I think Combo Elves is very much the metagame deck (which, I guess, makes it a "deck" I'd concede, but not a very good one), where I believe (but cannot show, outside of some SCG results) that Vengevine Elves is something that can breakout and become part of the legacy gauntlet, in some sense, as opposed to a fringe deck.

[unemployer]

Hello everyone,

I have been playing Combo Elves for the past year and made a lot of changes to make a balanced deck for the metagame here. For the last 3 months, I am playing Combo elves with Splash Black and White (1 Bayou and 1 Savannah); white for mirror entity, SB dauntless escort and black for mainboard Tendrils of Agony and SB cabal therapy. I have 2 win conditions, either by Mirror Entity win or by Tendrils of Agony storm Combo.

So far, I can win on a few decks like Hypergenesis, Soul Sister, Reanimator, Zoo, ANT, Enchantress, 43 lands and affinity. I am really having a hard time dealing with Black Control and other variants. This deck is a very big disadvantage since my hand is already disrupted and creatures already controlled/destroyed. When my opponents plays Vampire Nighthawk or Bob, usually im at a big disadvantage. Most wins are just relying on my SB. My friend suggested me to place Bob in my SB and it worked for me once (since I got to borrow). Looks like the solutions for black is black as well.

My main concern is, are there any other options I can use to for these kinds of decks?

[k2thej]

Hello everyone,

I have been playing Combo Elves for the past year and made a lot of changes to make a balanced deck for the metagame here. For the last 3 months, I am playing Combo elves with Splash Black and White (1 Bayou and 1 Savannah); white for mirror entity, SB dauntless escort and black for mainboard Tendrils of Agony and SB cabal therapy. I have 2 win conditions, either by Mirror Entity win or by Tendrils of Agony storm Combo.

So far, I can win on a few decks like Hypergenesis, Soul Sister, Reanimator, Zoo, ANT, Enchantress, 43 lands and affinity. I am really having a hard time dealing with Black Control and other variants. This deck is a very big disadvantage since my hand is already disrupted and creatures already controlled/destroyed. When my opponents plays Vampire Nighthawk or Bob, usually im at a big disadvantage. Most wins are just relying on my SB. My friend suggested me to place Bob in my SB and it worked for me once (since I got to borrow). Looks like the solutions for black is black as well.

My main concern is, are there any other options I can use to for these kinds of decks?

Why do you have two win conditions? How many people can actually stop storm? And of those people, how many can then win before you aggro kill them the following turn with all the elves you just dropped? I know this has been said before but It's a wasted spot to have 2 wincons, especially 2 MD.

The possible exception is VV because VV can win when your combo is stopped, so it is a very different wincon (which I still think takes away from the main combo), but that argument aside, it is surely a waste to run two wincons that both depend on comboing to work.

[k2thej]

Here is a though that I just wanted to toss out there. I really love sideboard strategies that completely change the deck, like the recent doomsday tech being put into ANT's board. This could go either way for us, but you could have a completely concentrated VV strategy in one, and a completely concentrated combo in the other. It could look something like this. thoughts?


4 Birchlore Rangers
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Heritage Druid
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Vengevine
4 Wirewood Symbiote

4 Buried Alive
4 Intuition

2 Bayou
4 Forest
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Tropical Island
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard:
1 ?
3 Elvish Archdruid
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Glimpse of Nature
1 Joraga Warcaller
1 Regal Force
4 Summoner's Pact

[Koby]

I don't think that including both Buried Alive and Intuition together is very useful. Maxing out either one is fine, but 8 such cards in the deck has diminishing returns (esp once you use them up to get VV). I like the Intuition plan better overall, and would recommend playing that over Buried Alive... unless you plan on utilizing discard in the main/SB.

In this list, I think having 4 Archdruids maindeck is very necessary, as it gives the deck a stronger Aggro push. Any lord can be used here, but Archdruid gives you SB combo plan better footing.

[k2thej]

I don't think that including both Buried Alive and Intuition together is very useful. Maxing out either one is fine, but 8 such cards in the deck has diminishing returns (esp once you use them up to get VV). I like the Intuition plan better overall, and would recommend playing that over Buried Alive... unless you plan on utilizing discard in the main/SB.

In this list, I think having 4 Archdruids maindeck is very necessary, as it gives the deck a stronger Aggro push. Any lord can be used here, but Archdruid gives you SB combo plan better footing.

Ya I hadn't even tested yet but you are probably right. I think I will still go pure combo main and VV board though.

[Darklingske]

Ya I hadn't even tested yet but you are probably right. I think I will still go pure combo main and VV board though.

So, your current list no longer runs Wish? Or am I mistaken?

[Darklingske]

Ya I hadn't even tested yet but you are probably right. I think I will still go pure combo main and VV board though.

So you're currently no longer running Wishes? Or is that a mistake on my part?

[catmint]

I personally don't think that a primary VV plan in MD is a better aggro option than existing ones. seems to be too slow to attack in turn 3-4 for 8-12. especially because the concept is still vulnerable to countermagic & discard.

I prefer combo-version in MD (as reliable as possible) and tested K2thej's wish build, but I do experiment now with a differnt concept:

- No wish, but black in MD for thoughtseize (helps vs. alsost any matchup; especially good to remove FoW, dures, fast combo)
- Sideboard option of NO+Progenitus vs. control / sweeper matchups + more disruption, because migth take a bit longer
- zealot + eternal witness in MD to have some options vs. killer articacts/entchanments or to return a glimpse
-> -1 pact, +1 GSZ to have easy access to the utility creatures without the risk to pay 4 mana or to loose a turn, because of paying

Still some things I am playing around in SB & MD. currently looks like this:

// Lands
2 Gaea's Cradle
3 Forest
2 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest

// Creatures
1 Elvish Archdruid
3 Quirion Ranger
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Heritage Druid
2 Fyndhorn Elves
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Regal Force
3 Birchlore Rangers
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Elvish Visionary
1 Viridian Zealot
1 Joraga Warcaller
1 Eternal Witness

// Spells
4 Glimpse of Nature
3 Thoughtseize
3 Summoner's Pact
1 Green Sun's Zenith

// Sideboard
1 Progenitus
4 Krosan Grip
4 Natural Order
2 Cabal Therapy
4 Mindbreak Trap

[catmint]

...

[k2thej]

@Darklingske- I have both the wish build and pure combo that I am testing. I do not think I want VV MD right now, but I am testing both to see which SB plan is better.

EDIT: Is anyone else having the problem where it says there is a new post but there isn't? Like, for example, in established decks right now it sads the most recent post is by ruckus but then I looked and it was still mine.

[TossUsToLions]

EDIT: Is anyone else having the problem where it says there is a new post but there isn't? Like, for example, in established decks right now it sads the most recent post is by ruckus but then I looked and it was still mine.

Yes. The Source has been super glitchy lately. It doesn't update the latest poster, and it has been double-posting a lot

[TossUsToLions]

EDIT: Is anyone else having the problem where it says there is a new post but there isn't? Like, for example, in established decks right now it sads the most recent post is by ruckus but then I looked and it was still mine.

Yes. The Source has been super glitchy lately. It doesn't update the latest poster, and it has been double-posting a lot

[Hawdes]

@Darklingske- I have both the wish build and pure combo that I am testing. I do not think I want VV MD right now, but I am testing both to see which SB plan is better.

EDIT: Is anyone else having the problem where it says there is a new post but there isn't? Like, for example, in established decks right now it sads the most recent post is by ruckus but then I looked and it was still mine.

I have the same problem... First I thought it was my browser bugging on me and cleaned out all cache... But it's the forum that has problems updating... So you're not the only one. :)

[1maarten1]

@Darklingske- I have both the wish build and pure combo that I am testing. I do not think I want VV MD right now, but I am testing both to see which SB plan is better.

EDIT: Is anyone else having the problem where it says there is a new post but there isn't? Like, for example, in established decks right now it sads the most recent post is by ruckus but then I looked and it was still mine.

I have the same prob, when I enter the site I see there are new posts, but then i click on Established decks and I dont see them. For example I see there is a page 58 in this thread, but it wont load the next page... VERY FRUSTRATING!

[NihilObstat]

Why do you have two win conditions?

Because mirror entity is tutorable, and it's the greatest aggro option we have.
Why do you run Joraga Warcaller k2thej ??

Responding at the same time to TossUsToLions. I used to laugh at Zoo's thanks to Mirror entity when I ran Chord of calling, because even if they sword, path it, the ability is until end of turn opposed to Joraga Warcaller.
Without Mirror entity I've realized that facing some removal-aggro decks has become a little more of a problem, but they are still very winnable and really aren't that big of a problem as CB/Top, 4 color, other super control decks.

To Catmin: I will test the thougtseize MD, but although it might be just what we need against some matchups, I will be a wasted or stupid stop against many others... :S

[NihilObstat]

Why do you have two win conditions? I know this has been said before but It's a wasted spot to have 2 wincons, especially 2 MD.

The possible exception is VV because VV can win when your combo is stopped, so it is a very different wincon (which I still think takes away from the main combo), but that argument aside, it is surely a waste to run two wincons that both depend on comboing to work.


Why do you have two win conditions?
Because mirror entity is tutorable, and it's the greatest aggro option we have.
Why do you run Joraga Warcaller k2thej ?? He basically is a Win con.

Responding at the same time to TossUsToLions. I used to laugh at Zoo's thanks to Mirror entity when I ran Chord of calling, because even if they sword, path it, the ability is until end of turn opposed to Joraga Warcaller.
Without Mirror entity I've realized that facing some removal-aggro decks has become a little more of a problem, but they are still very winnable and really aren't that big of a problem as CB/Top, 4 color, other super control decks.

To Catmin: I will test the thougtseize MD, but although it might be just what we need against some matchups, I will be a wasted or stupid stop against many others... :S

[Elvish Visionary]

Has anyone tested Autumn's Veil before comboing? It is an idea I have been tossing around as an anti FOW card. Being that Go for the Throat is becoming more popular with the Team America deck along with other black and blue removal.

[Elvish Visionary]

Has anyone tested Autumn's Veil? It is a card i have thought about adding; would be a nice play before comboing and with Go for the Throat and Doom Blade becoming more popular with the Team America deck.

[unemployer]

Why do you have two win conditions? How many people can actually stop storm? And of those people, how many can then win before you aggro kill them the following turn with all the elves you just dropped? I know this has been said before but It's a wasted spot to have 2 wincons, especially 2 MD.

The possible exception is VV because VV can win when your combo is stopped, so it is a very different wincon (which I still think takes away from the main combo), but that argument aside, it is surely a waste to run two wincons that both depend on comboing to work.

Thanks for the good insight. But still, how do I deal with Mono Black Control or any variants for that matter?

[Darklingske]

EDIT: Is anyone else having the problem where it says there is a new post but there isn't? Like, for example, in established decks right now it sads the most recent post is by ruckus but then I looked and it was still mine.

I'm having some sort of simular problem. I post, get an error report, post again, get another error report from the server. Leaving the site and coming back and suddenly my posts are here. Both. And what you described, I encountered also a few times. Quit annoying.

[catmint]

I didn't say always but it sure is the vast majority of the time (80-85%).

K2thej: How does your magic goldfish work to combo ~80 within the first 3 turns?
... a simple MWS analasys shows that you draw glimpse only a little more that 50% of the time by Turn 3. But that does not discount the times you cannot combo because of other reasons.

I don't want to say that you are not a competent player, but you got to be more realistic about what is the truth about the strength of the combo...

[catmint]

..double post...

[k2thej]

@Nihil- Joraga has all the advantages of a lord without any of the disadvantages to comboing. He is a one drop that keeps glimpse going just like any other elf, but when you need to you can bounce him back with symbiote and recast him with all the extra mana you have to make your dudes huge. With regards to which card can help both combo and aggro options the most at the same time, no one comes close to warcaller.

@catmint- You don't have to have glimpse in your hand to combo by turn three. If you cast a regal force by turn three you will usually combo as well, so add those times in. then factor in all the extra cards you see with symbiote/visionary to see either a glimpse, pact or regal force to combo. It really isn't unrealistic, there are so many ways to get card advantage besides glimpse so the analysis shouldn't lead you to believe that just because you don't have a glimpse you won't combo by turn 3.

@Unemployer- MBC is a tough matchup if they run a lot of discard. Usually though, they have an explosive first few turns and then lose steam. they don't have a lot of card advantage so eventually you should be able to build up enough of an advantage to combo even with their discard. It will certainly be much slower but it can be done. MBC is my other favorite archetype besides elves so I play MBC against some friends playing elves a lot, and it's def not an easy win for MBC. If elves can last to the late game they usually win.

[catmint]

@catmint- You don't have to have glimpse in your hand to combo by turn three. If you cast a regal force by turn three you will usually combo as well, so add those times in. then factor in all the extra cards you see with symbiote/visionary to see either a glimpse, pact or regal force to combo. It really isn't unrealistic, there are so many ways to get card advantage besides glimpse so the analysis shouldn't lead you to believe that just because you don't have a glimpse you won't combo by turn 3.
.

if you cast a visionary in turn2, you have 1 card more. Calculate how mauch that increses the chance to draw a glimpse!
How likely is it to cast a regal force by turn 3 and you combo off the same turn?
Anyway this arguments dont make up a gap of my estimation: ~45% by turn 3 (uncontested) and your estimation 80%

I agree we can get a good card advantage and can do a lot of things with our builds, but we have to face the fact that the combo% uncontested is not super high AND that there are a lot of cards that hurt us. My answer to this can be found in my decklist. A strong combo shell with black for thoughtseize, warcaller & archdruid to support aggro and utility of witness/zealot with 1 GSZ for more access.

[ummon]

if you cast a visionary in turn2, you have 1 card more. Calculate how mauch that increses the chance to draw a glimpse!
How likely is it to cast a regal force by turn 3 and you combo off the same turn?
Anyway this arguments dont make up a gap of my estimation: ~45% by turn 3 (uncontested) and your estimation 80%

I agree we can get a good card advantage and can do a lot of things with our builds, but we have to face the fact that the combo% uncontested is not super high AND that there are a lot of cards that hurt us. My answer to this can be found in my decklist. A strong combo shell with black for thoughtseize, warcaller & archdruid to support aggro and utility of witness/zealot with 1 GSZ for more access.

You can use Summoner's Pact to find Visionary, Regal Force, or whatever you need to keep searching for the Glimpse. I regularly play Neil's elf combo deck and I have seen he can almost always goldfish by turn 3 (though he often has to wait till turn 4 because I use Repeal or Remand to slow him down).

[NihilObstat]

I think I'm gonna stop posting here. Internet discussions don't lead anywhere.
You guys should start being more realistic. That's all.
Until then, or until I have something really interesting to say, goodbye.

[ummon]

I think I'm gonna stop posting here. Internet discussions don't lead anywhere.
You guys should start being more realistic. That's all.
Until then, or until I have something really interesting to say, goodbye.

When I saw this the first thing that came to mind was the flavor text of Snap: "Good riddance." :D

[catmint]

You can use Summoner's Pact to find Visionary, Regal Force, or whatever you need to keep searching for the Glimpse. I regularly play Neil's elf combo deck and I have seen he can almost always goldfish by turn 3 (though he often has to wait till turn 4 because I use Repeal or Remand to slow him down).

ARe you serious?
pact for visionary in turn 2 to cast visioinary for 1 more card. Are you sure you can pay upkeep cost with 1-2 lands and 1-2 elves?
..what if someone kills an elf ... you loose the game :)


"almost always goldfish by turn 3" ??
are you serious? .. how many times did you try it? .... =)

guys I have to agree with NihilObstat... if you dont start to be more realistic, it does not make sense to discuss any longer!
k2 .. a lot of your posts make sense... I think you have to be a man and admit that you were just wrong!

I don't mean to be offensive, so please don't take my posts personal.

[Namida]

k2thej, I remember you saying that you were a math major of some sort. I wouldn't be so quick to assume that you're just throwing numbers around. Would you be able to provide some mathematical analysis for the reason you state that your combo turn is turn 2-3 on average?

[k2thej]

k2thej, I remember you saying that you were a math major of some sort. I wouldn't be so quick to assume that you're just throwing numbers around. Would you be able to provide some mathematical analysis for the reason you state that your combo turn is turn 2-3 on average?

I am working on that to try to prove to everyone (and myself) that I am not crazy. It is midterms week at St. Andrews in Scotland (where I am studying for the semseter), and I have a lot of group theory work to do, so that will take up most of my time (and my mathematical brainpower). Everything is due next week though, and I plan on posting some in depth analysis after that.

@catmint- you'd be surprised how often summoning a visionary on turn 2 allows you to combo that turn

[ZeinVoncy]

Goldfishing t2-t3 is actually pretty common. I cannot provide the statistical numbers, but I have build the deck, somewhat incomplete, but I will win the game (unless some sort of disruption is played) T2-T3 about 60% of the time I play.

[Darklingske]

"almost always goldfish by turn 3" ??
are you serious? .. how many times did you try it? .... =)
I think that K2 has already posted the answer to that a few pages before.


guys I have to agree with NihilObstat... if you dont start to be more realistic, it does not make sense to discuss any longer!
k2 .. a lot of your posts make sense... I think you have to be a man and admit that you were just wrong!

I don't mean to be offensive, so please don't take my posts personal
I think we just all have to stop nagging about the turn we combo out. If we are not being realistic, than it's in our own disadvantage. Comboing out is highly dependant of our skills and the easy of play with the deck. And I'm the first to admit that sometimes I'm just fumbling around with the deck and thus slowing the combo down. And the discussions should continue about the deck, not just when we combo!

[ummon]

ARe you serious?
pact for visionary in turn 2 to cast visioinary for 1 more card. Are you sure you can pay upkeep cost with 1-2 lands and 1-2 elves?
..what if someone kills an elf ... you loose the game :)

If you think your opponent is packing spot removal, you can obviously wait an extra turn. But you don't Pact on your second turn if you want to go off turn 3. You use the summoner's pact turn 3.


guys I have to agree with NihilObstat... if you dont start to be more realistic, it does not make sense to discuss any longer!
k2 .. a lot of your posts make sense... I think you have to be a man and admit that you were just wrong!

I don't mean to be offensive, so please don't take my posts personal.

I can understand your skepticism, but as a somewhat neutral observer (I don't play Elves Combo, but rather Solidarity, which I will freely admit is far slower, at turn 3-5), I can confirm what Neil and k2thej have been saying.

[Neil]

ARe you serious?
pact for visionary in turn 2 to cast visioinary for 1 more card. Are you sure you can pay upkeep cost with 1-2 lands and 1-2 elves?
..what if someone kills an elf ... you loose the game :)


"almost always goldfish by turn 3" ??
are you serious? .. how many times did you try it? .... =)

guys I have to agree with NihilObstat... if you dont start to be more realistic, it does not make sense to discuss any longer!
k2 .. a lot of your posts make sense... I think you have to be a man and admit that you were just wrong!

I don't mean to be offensive, so please don't take my posts personal.

I have tried goldfishing 55 games with the living wish build I got:

27% turn 2
67% turn 3
7% turn 4

This has been rounded. Of course after spot removal the deck does slow down a bit.

[k2thej]

I have tried goldfishing 55 games with the living wish build I got:

27% turn 2
67% turn 3
7% turn 4

This has been rounded. Of course after spot removal the deck does slow down a bit.

Good to see my proposed stats are holding up haha.

[catmint]

I think we just all have to stop nagging about the turn we combo out. If we are not being realistic, than it's in our own disadvantage. Comboing out is highly dependant of our skills and the easy of play with the deck. And I'm the first to admit that sometimes I'm just fumbling around with the deck and thus slowing the combo down. And the discussions should continue about the deck, not just when we combo!

It is important to have a common understanding of the elve community when we can realisticly combo goldfishing and beeing challenged by the different decks. The reason for that is that only in this way we can be creative and find ways to improve the deck.
If someone posts a concern and the answer of most people is: "that does not matter, because with high skill and my list you combo off turn 2 or 3 80% of the time", there is no need to discuss anything... The common understanding is also relevant when we discuss if it is worth weakenging the combo for disruption, utility or aggro plan.


Good to see my proposed stats are holding up haha.
kidding? :)

...55 games sounds a lot, but you have to get a better understanding of mathematical variance.
If you draw 7+4 cards out of 60, the statistical likeliness to get 1 of 4 glimpse is ~55%.
55 Hands is a pretty small sample. If you flip a coin 1000 times, you will very likely have something like ~500 times tails/heads, but within flipping 50 times there might be larger deviations from 50:50.

[Neil]

It is important to have a common understanding of the elve community when we can realisticly combo goldfishing and beeing challenged by the different decks. The reason for that is that only in this way we can be creative and find ways to improve the deck.
If someone posts a concern and the answer of most people is: "that does not matter, because with high skill and my list you combo off turn 2 or 3 80% of the time", there is no need to discuss anything... The common understanding is also relevant when we discuss if it is worth weakenging the combo for disruption, utility or aggro plan.


kidding? :)

...55 games sounds a lot, but you have to get a better understanding of mathematical variance.
If you draw 7+4 cards out of 60, the statistical likeliness to get 1 of 4 glimpse is ~55%.
55 Hands is a pretty small sample. If you flip a coin 1000 times, you will very likely have something like ~500 times tails/heads, but within flipping 50 times there might be larger deviations from 50:50.

OMG!!!! How many times do you want me to test goldfishing before you agree?? lol

Also by your assuming that glimpse is the only way of comboing off, which is not true. Think about it this way if there is only one way of going off the deviation of a 55 sample will become larger. However, if there a multiple ways to go off the deviation off a 55 sample will become smaller. I'm still in High School and haven't taken statistics yet but I'm pretty sure I'm right on this.

[ummon]

It is important to have a common understanding of the elve community when we can realisticly combo goldfishing and beeing challenged by the different decks. The reason for that is that only in this way we can be creative and find ways to improve the deck.
If someone posts a concern and the answer of most people is: "that does not matter, because with high skill and my list you combo off turn 2 or 3 80% of the time", there is no need to discuss anything... The common understanding is also relevant when we discuss if it is worth weakenging the combo for disruption, utility or aggro plan.


kidding? :)

...55 games sounds a lot, but you have to get a better understanding of mathematical variance.
If you draw 7+4 cards out of 60, the statistical likeliness to get 1 of 4 glimpse is ~55%.
55 Hands is a pretty small sample. If you flip a coin 1000 times, you will very likely have something like ~500 times tails/heads, but within flipping 50 times there might be larger deviations from 50:50.

95% confidence interval says that his turn 4 win percentage is no greater than 20% (i.e. he can combo turn 2-3 80% of the time).

[unemployer]

@Unemployer- MBC is a tough matchup if they run a lot of discard. Usually though, they have an explosive first few turns and then lose steam. they don't have a lot of card advantage so eventually you should be able to build up enough of an advantage to combo even with their discard. It will certainly be much slower but it can be done. MBC is my other favorite archetype besides elves so I play MBC against some friends playing elves a lot, and it's def not an easy win for MBC. If elves can last to the late game they usually win.

I do hope they lose some steam. Its way hard to last that long

[catmint]

OMG!!!! How many times do you want me to test goldfishing before you agree?? lol

Also by your assuming that glimpse is the only way of comboing off, which is not true. Think about it this way if there is only one way of going off the deviation of a 55 sample will become larger. However, if there a multiple ways to go off the deviation off a 55 sample will become smaller. I'm still in High School and haven't taken statistics yet but I'm pretty sure I'm right on this.[

How do you combo without a glimpse?
When I mean combo: Cast an emrakul or a banefire the same turn to win the game. I also know that I can have 8 elves including an archdruid by turn 2 in play without a glimpse and this will very often win the game. However, this is not what I consider comboing off.

So what did you consider comboing off without a glimpse?
This might also give an insight in how you get to your numbers...

[k2thej]

How do you combo without a glimpse?
When I mean combo: Cast an emrakul or a banefire the same turn to win the game. I also know that I can have 8 elves including an archdruid by turn 2 in play without a glimpse and this will very often win the game. However, this is not what I consider comboing off.

So what did you consider comboing off without a glimpse?
This might also give an insight in how you get to your numbers...

You do need a glimpse to combo, but you do not need to have it in hand when you start the turn. Cards like regal force and bouncing visionary make it easy to find. I combo without a glimpse initially in my hand very frequently.

So do the above posts mean people are agreeing with me about the 80%?

[NihilObstat]

I have tried goldfishing 55 games with the living wish build I got:
27% turn 2
67% turn 3
7% turn 4
This has been rounded. Of course after spot removal the deck does slow down a bit.

Hehehe, this is TOO funny. Just to proof how unrealistic you guys are being:

27+67+7 = 101

So Neil is saying that he comboed before turn 5, around 101% of the games he goldfished. That is magically nice ;)

Oh, well, I'm tired on this non-sense. Do not round up and generalize, do exact math. If you loose to mana screw or mana flood, also write it down, there should be at least another 2%, minimum, of wins after turn 4.


Btw: I played a 31 person tournie the other day. 3-2
G1: Zoo, win 1st, 2nd game I drew shit and he got 3 Bolts, 3 Paths, 1 Ethersworn, 3rd game 3 Bolts, 3 Pahts, 1 Ethersworn. 1-2
G2: Countertop, both games he sets Counter+Top by turn 2, protected by fow, GGs! 0-2
G3: Burn, nice hands, comboed when he was tapped out. 2-0
G4: CounterThopters, he wasn't as lucky. Wishing for art/ench removal was great. 2-0
G5: MonoR Goblins. 2-0

I'm so mad I didn't win Zoo, but those games were ridiculous, and still I was about to aggro-win him both games.

[catmint]

You do need a glimpse to combo, but you do not need to have it in hand when you start the turn. Cards like regal force and bouncing visionary make it easy to find. I combo without a glimpse initially in my hand very frequently.

So do the above posts mean people are agreeing with me about the 80%?

I did not say you have to have it in your starting hand. I am saying if you draw 7+4 cards the statistical probability to have a glimpse is ~57%.

Obviously I am the only one who is questioning 80% by T3. If nobody else wants to question that I am going to join NihilObstat and let you discuss here whatever you think is important. It's not fun to discuss something if the common understanding is: "Disruption does not affect us and we don't need disruption, because we race everything"

[Nessaja]

What he's saying is that when you don't have a glimpse you apparently have a combination of Visionary/Heritage Druid/Wirewood Symbiote and Nettle Sentinel that can make you dig for it.

While you can see two more cards, getting that combination of cards isn't exactly likely on turn 3. If it were I'd advice you to stop playing Elves and play Imperial Painter instead because when you can consistently get such a combo online Painter does it better.

Anyway, the percentages are just off and you know it, you need a very specific combination of cards to go off turn 3 without glimpse. 4 is much more realistic.

[k2thej]

The 101% is probably just a result of some rounding that is off.

I think by "turn 4" he meant "turn 4 or after" since he was just checking the % of turn 2 or 3

I understand your point of seeing 4 extra cards but that is if you don't do anything and just wait. If you cast regal you will see a lot more than 4 extra cards. Each card you draw also has the probability of being another card-drawer or pact to get a card drawer so you have to factor that probability in as well. The probability you will see a glimpse by turn 3 is very hard to calculate, since you would need to calculate the prob of having glimpse in your opening hand (40%) and add that to the prob of successfully using a card drawer in your hand to find a glimpse. the number of different ways this can possible happen, along with each of their respective probabilities would take an extremely long time to calculate (and this is from someone studying mathematics).

Instead, the best way to test it is to see how many times you are able to combo by a given turn. Once you have a large enough sample size you will be able to know. The sample side does not need to be more than 100, and certainly not 1000 as someone previously suggested, since the law of diminishing returns tells us this.

When we goldfish is more important than people are giving it credit for, since this displays the difference in speed between the different builds. Nihil is writing it off because he doesn't believe it can happen, and I think if I did not think it could happen I would write them off as well. But IF my statistics were correct, just think IF for a second, then I think we might be able to agree that it is favorable to go for the speed build. Therefore, it is not an irrelevant matter when we goldfish since it will point us towards the most effective build of the deck. When I have time, likely this coming weekend, I will post a full analysis of trials with all the accuracy people could ever desire, and this will provide unbiased, numerical evidence that will help us decide if the speed build is in fact speedy enough, or if we do need other support to complement it.

[catmint]

The 101% is probably just a result of some rounding that is off.

I think by "turn 4" he meant "turn 4 or after" since he was just checking the % of turn 2 or 3

I understand your point of seeing 4 extra cards but that is if you don't do anything and just wait. If you cast regal you will see a lot more than 4 extra cards. Each card you draw also has the probability of being another card-drawer or pact to get a card drawer so you have to factor that probability in as well. The probability you will see a glimpse by turn 3 is very hard to calculate, since you would need to calculate the prob of having glimpse in your opening hand (40%) and add that to the prob of successfully using a card drawer in your hand to find a glimpse. the number of different ways this can possible happen, along with each of their respective probabilities would take an extremely long time to calculate (and this is from someone studying mathematics).

Instead, the best way to test it is to see how many times you are able to combo by a given turn. Once you have a large enough sample size you will be able to know. The sample side does not need to be more than 100, and certainly not 1000 as someone previously suggested, since the law of diminishing returns tells us this.

When we goldfish is more important than people are giving it credit for, since this displays the difference in speed between the different builds. Nihil is writing it off because he doesn't believe it can happen, and I think if I did not think it could happen I would write them off as well. But IF my statistics were correct, just think IF for a second, then I think we might be able to agree that it is favorable to go for the speed build. Therefore, it is not an irrelevant matter when we goldfish since it will point us towards the most effective build of the deck. When I have time, likely this coming weekend, I will post a full analysis of trials with all the accuracy people could ever desire, and this will provide unbiased, numerical evidence that will help us decide if the speed build is in fact speedy enough, or if we do need other support to complement it.

Very well spoken/written!
Looking forward to your data. I am also going to goldfish your build and my current one and compare how large the difference is of starting the combo and finishing it sucessfully. I am also courious how my number deviate from yours (same build), so I can see how big the skill disadvantage is (which I suspect is there...)

I am still questioning Neil's goldfishing. Curious to hear what it means for him to "go off without glimpse".

[Koby]

Just wanted to throw in a bit of news regarding my build (4 Cradle 6 Fetch, 4 Forest 2 Bayou)

I finally hit the wall with bad hands - 7 card hand with only Cradle - mull into 6 card hand with only Cradle, mull into no lander.

However, this was the first game where this occurred in about 20 games played so far. In my evaluation I think I can be comfortable with 2 Cradle. I still feel that Cradle is somewhat necessary due to Vengevine being in the deck. I'll post more thoughts on this later.

[Neil]

Hehehe, this is TOO funny. Just to proof how unrealistic you guys are being:

27+67+7 = 101

So Neil is saying that he comboed before turn 5, around 101% of the games he goldfished. That is magically nice ;)

Oh, well, I'm tired on this non-sense. Do not round up and generalize, do exact math. If you loose to mana screw or mana flood, also write it down, there should be at least another 2%, minimum, of wins after turn 4.


Btw: I played a 31 person tournie the other day. 3-2
G1: Zoo, win 1st, 2nd game I drew shit and he got 3 Bolts, 3 Paths, 1 Ethersworn, 3rd game 3 Bolts, 3 Pahts, 1 Ethersworn. 1-2
G2: Countertop, both games he sets Counter+Top by turn 2, protected by fow, GGs! 0-2
G3: Burn, nice hands, comboed when he was tapped out. 2-0
G4: CounterThopters, he wasn't as lucky. Wishing for art/ench removal was great. 2-0
G5: MonoR Goblins. 2-0

I'm so mad I didn't win Zoo, but those games were ridiculous, and still I was about to aggro-win him both games.

Yes I did round it off. I goldfished once on turn 5 which is 2% oh wait! It's 1.818181...% or maybe you would prefer it as a ratio of integers which is 100/55. I ignored turn 5 since the discussion was about goldfishing before turn 4.




Very well spoken/written!
Looking forward to your data. I am also going to goldfish your build and my current one and compare how large the difference is of starting the combo and finishing it sucessfully. I am also courious how my number deviate from yours (same build), so I can see how big the skill disadvantage is (which I suspect is there...)

I am still questioning Neil's goldfishing. Curious to hear what it means for him to "go off without glimpse".

Well like k2thej said you don't need a glimpse in hand to combo off. Pacting or wishing into a regal force normally works to draw into a glimpse. I count goldfishing on a given turn as casting a Emrakul and with the second turn by swinging for lethal. Which does bring me to one point, you run banefire and emrakul? won't replacing the banefire with living wish be better? Also another way to go off without glimpse is with a hand like this:

1 Living wish, 1 Priest of titania, 1 fyndhorn elves, 1 wirewood, 1 Quirion ranger, 1 Heritage druid, and 1 forest. The wirewood, quirion, and or Heritage druid can be replaced by pacts. Or if you have a similar hand what you draw into might also make it work. Turn 2 cast the priest. Play all the 1 cmc elves and tap and untap the priest. It is important to remember to bounce the quirion with wirewood so you can use quirions ability again. After all that you should have enough mana to living wish into an emrakul. I know it is improbable to get such a hand but I do remember having this hand and asking myself can I combo off turn 3 with this.

[catmint]

Check my list some posts ago ... of coures I only play 1 win-con.
Good to hear that you consider going off as casting emrakul. The number of doing without glimpse by T3 is very low with my build. I don't play titania though...I don't think it makes a big difference, but maybe you can also include the percentage where you cast emrakul without glimpse next time you goldfish.

[k2thej]

Check my list some posts ago ... of coures I only play 1 win-con.
Good to hear that you consider going off as casting emrakul. The number of doing without glimpse by T3 is very low with my build. I don't play titania though...I don't think it makes a big difference, but maybe you can also include the percentage where you cast emrakul without glimpse next time you goldfish.

It's not usually casting Emrakul without glimpse at all, it's casting Emrakul without glimpse initially.

[Mr. Safety]

Is anyone using Grapeshot/Tendrils anymore or is Emrakul the only 'real' win con now...just curious...I'm going to invest in some cards soon, most likely Living Wish x3 + package if that's the only competitive way to go...

[Beautiful-Decay]

hey K2, I'm about to update my elf-deck and would like a final build of yours. I don't know if Vengine is about to take place in SB or what really happend to that idea. So please upload a deck list. :) So i know which cards to buy.

[k2thej]

I go back and forth between wish and non wish. Wish is slightly more consistent, but it doesn't allow for VV in the board.


Wish build:

4 Birchlore Rangers
3 Elvish Archdruid
4 Elvish Visionary
6 Forest
3 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Heritage Druid
1 Joraga Warcaller
3 Living Wish
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Quirion Ranger
1 Regal Force
4 Summoner's Pact
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wirewood Symbiote

SB:

1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Joraga Warcaller
4 Leyline of Lifeforce
1 Masticore
1 Regal Force
4 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Viridian Zealot



Straight Combo:


2 Bayou
4 Birchlore Rangers
3 Elvish Archdruid
4 Elvish Visionary
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
5 Forest
4 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Heritage Druid
1 Joraga Warcaller
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Quirion Ranger
1 Regal Force
4 Summoner's Pact
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wirewood Symbiote

SB:

4 Buried Alive
3 Krosan Grip
4 Vengevine
4 Vexing Shusher

[Neil]

I go back and forth between wish and non wish. Wish is slightly more consistent, but it doesn't allow for VV in the board.


Wish build:

4 Birchlore Rangers
3 Elvish Archdruid
4 Elvish Visionary
6 Forest
3 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Heritage Druid
1 Joraga Warcaller
3 Living Wish
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Quirion Ranger
1 Regal Force
4 Summoner's Pact
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wirewood Symbiote

SB:

1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Joraga Warcaller
4 Leyline of Lifeforce
1 Masticore
1 Regal Force
4 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Viridian Zealot



Straight Combo:


2 Bayou
4 Birchlore Rangers
3 Elvish Archdruid
4 Elvish Visionary
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
5 Forest
4 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Heritage Druid
1 Joraga Warcaller
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Quirion Ranger
1 Regal Force
4 Summoner's Pact
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wirewood Symbiote

SB:

4 Buried Alive
3 Krosan Grip
4 Vengevine
4 Vexing Shusher

Why do you run Vexing shusher in the list without living wish and Leylines in the one with? Is there something I'm missing?

edit: Yay!! I can finally see the 60th page and also post in it!

[catmint]

I did some goldfishing in magic workstation comparing two builds (played 71 games with each build).
My numbers where are very different than what was posted so far.
When you goldfish do you start counting by T0 or T1?!

I started counting by T1 and here are my results:

K2's wish list:

T2: started combo: 14% finished successfully 40%
T3: started combo: 31% finished successfully 100%
T4: started combo: 35% finished successfully 100%

the "not successful" times i combo in t2 except for 1-2 times it should be game winning...

My current list (not sure if it is really good, but i am testing):
// Lands
2 Gaea's Cradle
3 Forest
2 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest

// Creatures
1 Elvish Archdruid
3 Quirion Ranger
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Heritage Druid
2 Fyndhorn Elves
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Regal Force
3 Birchlore Rangers
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Elvish Visionary
1 Viridian Zealot
1 Joraga Warcaller


// Spells
4 Glimpse of Nature
3 Thoughtseize
4 Summoner's Pact
1 Diabolic Intent

// Sideboard
1 Progenitus
3 Krosan Grip
4 Natural Order
1 Cabal Therapy
3 Choke
1 Caller of the Claw
1 Essence Warden

The results with my list where:
T2: started 6% finisehd successful 75%
T3: started 39% finished successful 64%
T4: started 35% finished successful 96%

again the times where I started to combo in T3 and did not finish it should be very often game winning.
Some additional stats that might be relevant:
In 25% before I started to combo I was able to play protection (thoughtseize)
I used diabolic intent 13% of the time to tutor for glimpse or an important elve.

Altough the differences of the decks might not be that big on the first sight, they play very different.
With k2's build it is really very powerful to just get an archdruid and many elves on the board (if you don't have a glimpse) and just topdeck a pact or a wish (for regal force) or a visionary/wirewood engine. I was also surprised how big the difference of the consistency of the combo is!!!

The wish build is defenitely more fun when goldfishing, however if you don't happen to play affinity you will always have to consider how they will disrupt you and therefore operate most of the times differently. I feel that thoughtseize helps a lot in real games...
What I also don't like about the wish build is that you have to sacrifice a lot from your sideboard. In my current build I have some options to side in choke/cabal/essence warden/caller of the claw/fecundity/mindbreak trap,... altough I keep the combo in. The wish build is either pure combo or leyline/aggro and I feel that does not cover the variety of legacy decks out there and it cannot be adapted to meta game.
For example: what do you do vs. merfolk? -> combo is tough because of 4fow/4dazer, but you probably won't out aggro them....
or blue combo decks like high tide or sneak & tell, painted stone, counter-top, thopter which use countermagic and I see very little chances to win against those decks with the aggro build.

Looking forward to hear from you!
If your goldfish numbers are really completely different, maybe I can share my screen and play in front of you ... then you can tell me what I do wrong. :)

[Neil]

@Catmint as soon as I get the time I will do some goldfishes and post the results. I'll also try to post how I went off so we can see if I really play that differently. I start counting it as turn 1. So turn 1 play a land put Llanowar elves down. turn 2 play another land, If I go off now it would be a turn 2 goldfish. What I would be interested in knowing is when you play against opponents, how often did thoughtseize get a card that was important?

[k2thej]

Why do you run Vexing shusher in the list without living wish and Leylines in the one with? Is there something I'm missing?

edit: Yay!! I can finally see the 60th page and also post in it!

Shusher makes buried alive uncounterable. There are no non-creature spells post board in the wish build so there is no need for shusher.

[catmint]

Most of the time you get a card with thoughtseize that is important. Most common: FoW, daze, inquisition/thoughtseize, swords, ligtning bolt, sd.top, counterbalance, EE, trinket mage, firesput, perish, chalice, enlightened tutor,... if not a card that hurts us, then a card that helps him to be faster like a combo piece.

[k2thej]

Most of the time you get a card with thoughtseize that is important. Most common: FoW, daze, inquisition/thoughtseize, swords, ligtning bolt, sd.top, counterbalance, EE, trinket mage, firesput, perish, chalice, enlightened tutor,... if not a card that hurts us, then a card that helps him to be faster like a combo piece.

Yes, but it also slows us down too. It rather not decrease the potency of the deck to add a tiny little bit of disruption.

[catmint]

No further comments to my goldfishing K2?
When will you finish your testing?

[k2thej]

No further comments to my goldfishing K2?
When will you finish your testing?

It's great data. We def need as much as we can get. I do think I might be able to make a couple suggestions to some of your playing decisions, as this is the only thing I can think of that would account for the differences in our stats.

As for my testing, my magic time has actually been a bit distracted from elves lately. This is the first time this has happened in a very long time, but I am developing a new mono black deck that I think has potential to be very, very good in the current format.

would you be up for screen sharing?

[voltron00x]

I played Elves today at a 38-player event, with some pretty high player quality (at least four players in the field had SCG Legacy Open top 8s). I was the #1 seed after Swiss, but unfortunately lost a close match to Junk in the top 8 in which I mulled to 5 game two, and in game three had basically everything go wrong for me and everything go right for my opponent.

I would consider cutting two Birchlore Rangers from this deck for a 4th Symbiote and 4th Visionary, as I felt the Birchlores weren't that necessary and were often being sided out. I beat Goblins, Merfolk, Merfolk, and Affinity in the Swiss. Here's the list as I played it:

4 Llanowar Elves
4 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Heritage Druid
4 Birchlore Rangers
3 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Nettle Sentinel
3 Elvish Visionary
4 Elvish Archdruid
4 Glimpse of Nature
3 Summoner’s Pact
2 Genesis Wave
1 Joraga Warcaller
1 Regal Force
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
6 Forest
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs

Sideboard
4 Mindbreak Trap
2 Ravenous Trap
2 Tormod’s Crypt
3 Null Rod
3 Viridian Shaman
1 Reverent Silence

[lep]

Yea, that reverent silence would have been a spicy board card against me, shame we both got knocked out before it came to that.

Do you like the Genesis Waves over the 4th Pact and the 4th Visionary? I have been playing lists with and without wave and I am torn. What are you normally casting it for?

[voltron00x]

I drew Wave 4 times during the tournament. 3 Times I cast it, and I won all 3 games. The 4th time it was Thoughtseized out of my hand. I think the card is great; 2 seemed like the right number.

If I had to cut anything, it would be 1-2 Birchlore Rangers. I was pretty ok with just the 3 Pacts.

By the way, was good talking to you today, and nice job on the top 8.

[llSaintll]

I have a question for k2thej,

I have been reading this thread for awhile and have begun testing the wish build, so far I have tested against goblins and have good results against them. Now I'm testing against a control deck I saw on the forums, a U/R Trinket Mage deck, and I can not to seem to win against it pre or post board.
Heres the List I'm testing against:

4 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
3 "Volcanic Island
7 Island
3 Mountain
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Academy Ruins


3 Trinket Mage
2 Vendilion Clique

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Counterspell
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Fire//Ice
2 Fire Sprout
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Pithing Needle
1 Meekstone
1 Isochron Scepter
1 Chalice of the Void
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

My decklist is similar to yours except for my side, which I added KGrips and BBog.

1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Joraga Warcaller
4 Leyline of Lifeforce
1 Masticore
1 Regal Force
3 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Viridian Shaman
2 Krosan Grip

Any advice on how to beat a deck like this?

[catmint]

I have a question for k2thej,

I have been reading this thread for awhile and have begun testing the wish build, so far I have tested against goblins and have good results against them. Now I'm testing against a control deck I saw on the forums, a U/R Trinket Mage deck, and I can not to seem to win against it pre or post board.
Heres the List I'm testing against:

4 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
3 "Volcanic Island
7 Island
3 Mountain
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Academy Ruins


3 Trinket Mage
2 Vendilion Clique

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Counterspell
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Fire//Ice
2 Fire Sprout
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Pithing Needle
1 Meekstone
1 Isochron Scepter
1 Chalice of the Void
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

My decklist is similar to yours except for my side, which I added KGrips and BBog.

1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Joraga Warcaller
4 Leyline of Lifeforce
1 Masticore
1 Regal Force
3 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Viridian Shaman
2 Krosan Grip

Any advice on how to beat a deck like this?

This is obviously a very tough matchup, because he has everything that hurts us so much in multiplse and tutorable. :) In my build I would go for Progenitus post board. He surely has answers to that (jace, meekstone, countermagic), but I should have better odds...
So I would side out:
4 pact -> 4 natural order
3 glimpse -> 3 krosan grip
emrakul -> progenitus
1 quirion -> 1 cabal therapy
2th quirion -> choke
1 birchlore -> 1 caller of e claw

[k2thej]

I have a question for k2thej,

I have been reading this thread for awhile and have begun testing the wish build, so far I have tested against goblins and have good results against them. Now I'm testing against a control deck I saw on the forums, a U/R Trinket Mage deck, and I can not to seem to win against it pre or post board.
Heres the List I'm testing against:

4 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
3 "Volcanic Island
7 Island
3 Mountain
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Academy Ruins


3 Trinket Mage
2 Vendilion Clique

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Counterspell
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Fire//Ice
2 Fire Sprout
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Pithing Needle
1 Meekstone
1 Isochron Scepter
1 Chalice of the Void
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

My decklist is similar to yours except for my side, which I added KGrips and BBog.

1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Joraga Warcaller
4 Leyline of Lifeforce
1 Masticore
1 Regal Force
3 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Viridian Shaman
2 Krosan Grip

Any advice on how to beat a deck like this?

This is precisely the type of matchup that makes me lean towards VV and Buried Alive in the board. I think the benefits of having them in the board probably do outweigh the benefits of wish.

[catmint]

It's great data. We def need as much as we can get. I do think I might be able to make a couple suggestions to some of your playing decisions, as this is the only thing I can think of that would account for the differences in our stats.

As for my testing, my magic time has actually been a bit distracted from elves lately. This is the first time this has happened in a very long time, but I am developing a new mono black deck that I think has potential to be very, very good in the current format.

would you be up for screen sharing?

sure would lveo to goldfish together. Would you pm me your skype contact?

[catmint]

This is precisely the type of matchup that makes me lean towards VV and Buried Alive in the board. I think the benefits of having them in the board probably do outweigh the benefits of wish.

Why do you prefer vengevine/buried alive over natural order/progenitus?

[NihilObstat]

I would consider cutting two Birchlore Rangers from this deck for a 4th Symbiote and 4th Visionary, as I felt the Birchlores weren't that necessary and were often being sided out.

I would take 1 Fyndhorn elves out, and 1 Land or another Llanowar. You can start to combo so many times only with Nettle and Birchlore, reducing them to 2 would suck.

I would suggest to cut 1 Archdruid or 1 Quirion but, playing Genesis Wave you need big amounts of mana, so maybe it's not a good idea.


To Catmint:
Vengevine - 4 creatures, 4 threats // NO - 1 creature.
Vengevine - Comes back // NO critt. - Does not

[lep]

I drew Wave 4 times during the tournament. 3 Times I cast it, and I won all 3 games. The 4th time it was Thoughtseized out of my hand. I think the card is great; 2 seemed like the right number.

If I had to cut anything, it would be 1-2 Birchlore Rangers. I was pretty ok with just the 3 Pacts.

By the way, was good talking to you today, and nice job on the top 8.

Were those games in which you cast Wave contingent upon it resolving or were you in a winning situation already? After talking to you I shifted things around some in my build and cut to 3 pacts and 3 Symbiotes and 3 Birchlore to fit in the 4th Archdruid and 2 Waves but I have no testing with it.

Thanks. Tough beats for both of us.

[catmint]

I drew Wave 4 times during the tournament. 3 Times I cast it, and I won all 3 games. The 4th time it was Thoughtseized out of my hand. I think the card is great; 2 seemed like the right number.

If I had to cut anything, it would be 1-2 Birchlore Rangers. I was pretty ok with just the 3 Pacts.

By the way, was good talking to you today, and nice job on the top 8.

Why did you decide to leave out the black disruption and NO / Progenitus?
IN the SCG genesiv wave build I saw 2 thoughtseize and NO in the SB

I can imagine that genesiv wave is fun to play, but if i have enough mana to cast a huge wave, I would rather cast a regal force.
what i also don't like about it is that decks which have an answer against 4 elves (ee, deed, firespout,...) also have ananswer to 8 elves.

[Elvish Visionary]

I would like to say congrats to Matt Sperling for getting 13th at SCG Las Angeles yesterday. Below is his decklist and there is a write-up of a featured match HERE: http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/21498_Round_6_Matt_Sperling_vs_William_Miller.html


2 Llanowar Elves
5 Forest
1 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Qasali Pridemage
4 Glimpse of Nature
1 Regal Force
4 Nettle Sentinel
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Summoner's Pact
3 Fyndhorn Elves
1 Pendelhaven
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Heritage Druid
2 Birchlore Rangers
2 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Elvish Visionary
1 Savannah
1 Priest of Titania
4 Gaea's Cradle
4 Misty Rainforest

Sideboard
1 Progenitus
1 Mortarpod
2 Viridian Shaman
4 Xantid Swarm
3 Krosan Grip
4 Natural Order

Now this is a different build but looks to of had a pretty good run.

[Elvish Visionary]

Also on a different topic; i posted my version of the deck a few pages back. Is it the consensus that Elvish Archdruid is better than Priest of Titania. I run 3 priest, 1 Archdruid for the pure fact that priest cost 2 and archdruid costs 3 and while comboing out does matter. I mean yes the extra +1/+1 pump ability of archdruid is awesome but i always run 1 archdruid and 1 warcaller for the aggro plan.

Another thought. I have been thinking about Eldamiri, Lord of leaves as a potential SB or wish target; if for some reason your combo fails you can atleast protect your elves from lots of hate. The counter argument would be that Eldamiri would really shut down all of the cool Elf abilities(herritage, nettle, quirrion) but i was thinking that you could always bounce a eldamiri with wirewood because eldamiri himself wouldnt be affected by its ability. Maybe its a dumb thought all together but its a pretty good card.

[gotohells]

@Elvish Visionary

Eladamri does prevent other elves from being targeted, but he doesn't have shroud so he can be untapped with either quirion or symbiote. You can also bounce any elf with symbiote ability because the bouncing effect doesn't target (but the untap effect does)

[1maarten1]

To all:

Very nice article here: I found it a supernice read. He pretty much mentions every single build we discussed here and more:
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/21524_The_Long_And_Winding_Road_Legacy_Elves.html

I really like his SB, and the 2 genesis wave seem really nice also. Ill test the list :)!

[Shabbaman]

Also on a different topic; i posted my version of the deck a few pages back. Is it the consensus that Elvish Archdruid is better than Priest of Titania

In the list you posted I think it makes a bit more sense to play a Priest so you can get it out with GSZ. Outside GSZ builds I don't think the 1 mana matters that much, but then the lord bit of Archdruid saves space in the deck. Archdruid has two roles, where Priest only has one.


To all:

Very nice article here: I found it a supernice read. He pretty much mentions every single build we discussed here and more:
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/21524_The_Long_And_Winding_Road_Legacy_Elves.html

I really like his SB, and the 2 genesis wave seem really nice also. Ill test the list :)!

I hope you realise that the guy who wrote this article (excellent as always, Matt!) is the same guy that shared the exact same list on the previous page of the thread, right? ;)

[1maarten1]

In the list you posted I think it makes a bit more sense to play a Priest so you can get it out with GSZ. Outside GSZ builds I don't think the 1 mana matters that much, but then the lord bit of Archdruid saves space in the deck. Archdruid has two roles, where Priest only has one.



I hope you realise that the guy who wrote this article (excellent as always, Matt!) is the same guy that shared the exact same list on the previous page of the thread, right? ;)

Oops ;) I just came back from vacation and I only looked at the last page to see if someone posted already :P Sorry!

[k2thej]

@prog vs vv sb plan- vv clock is a full turn faster and even more resilient than prog. I think it´s better in pretty much every way.

@priest vs archdruid- problems occur when you go above one mana, and then further problems occur when you go above 3, but the difference between 2 and 3 when comboing is actually mathematically negligable

@eladmri- The problem is that spot removal is the biggest concern in the early turns of the game, since we increase elf production as we go. Eladamri as a wish target would be too slow to stop this. MD he slows the combo down too much because of him cockblocking symbiote and ranger, so he is very difficult to find a spot for.

@catmint- traveling right now, will work out skype when I get back on wednesday.

[bakofried]

Hi, I'm testing with Matt Elias's list from the article, and I was wondering if anyone could shoot me some tips on playing the deck? As in, what should I bait counterspells with, what's a decent hand, how dependent is the deck on Glimpse, that sort of thing.

I was really hoping for some tips on the Deadguy/Junk MU, as that's floating around over here.

*EDIT
Matt Elias's list, sorry. Too many Matts floating around right now.

[k2thej]

4th place at scg open? Not too bad to that dude. ESGs too. Interesting.

[Darklingske]

So, this weekend another top 8 performance of elves! But to me it seems a strange list. No birchlore, 2 GSZ, 1 concordant crossroads, 4 archdruid, 4 priest, 3 ESG and only 12 lands. Anyone who has tested a simular list? I tested a few times with only 14 lands and found that I needed to mulligan too much.

[Mulligan]

Well, the ESGs were mainly so he could get turn 1 priests, double 1 drops or thorn, which all seem fairly good, but I think the times they could good are outweighed by the times they could be bad.

I have found 2 GSZ is really good to fight through hate as a supplementary tutor to Pact though.

Is Birchlore all that necessary, it has been underwhelming to me, it doesn't accelerate you in early turns, most lists are mono green, and I never have too much trouble finding a heritage druid when i'm going off?

[Mr. Froggy]

I was wondering, maybe I missed it because I'm blind or something, but how do you tutor for Emrakul? I see the Zenith and the Pact, but they're strictly for green creatures. Does the deck intend on drawing a billion cards and then hoping for the Emrakul?

Sorry if I missed something, I'm just interested in the deck. :)

[(nameless one)]

I was wondering, maybe I missed it because I'm blind or something, but how do you tutor for Emrakul? I see the Zenith and the Pact, but they're strictly for green creatures. Does the deck intend on drawing a billion cards and then hoping for the Emrakul?

Sorry if I missed something, I'm just interested in the deck. :)

Im pretty sure that when you're comboing out, you will draw Emrakul.

[Mr. Froggy]

And if you don't draw Emrakul you go on the beatdown I suppose? :)

Good enough for me :)

[bakofried]

Once the combo really gets going, it's pretty hard to fizzle. If you draw your entire deck (all but 1, I suppose) and don't see Emmy, pass the turn and pray they don't have a good enough sweeper. If they don't, they die.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Alternative:

-2 Green Sun's Zenith
-1 Emrakul
-1 Gaea's Cradle

+4 Living Wish

This is basically like running 4 Gaea's Cradle also which seems good. Plus you get Bojuka Bog, Karakas, random answers.

I'd also want to move Viridian Zealot off for Caller of the Claw, since it seems like there's a lot of reasonable situations where Summoner's Pact for Caller turns a game loss into a win.

[Neil]

Alternative:

-2 Green Sun's Zenith
-1 Emrakul
-1 Gaea's Cradle

+4 Living Wish

This is basically like running 4 Gaea's Cradle also which seems good. Plus you get Bojuka Bog, Karakas, random answers.

I'd also want to move Viridian Zealot off for Caller of the Claw, since it seems like there's a lot of reasonable situations where Summoner's Pact for Caller turns a game loss into a win.

Yeah living wish makes the deck so much better in my opinion. although I would go with three living wishes instead. 4 seems unnecessary.

[k2thej]

4 is def unnecessary, here is the wish build that I am currently testing with:

Main:

4 Birchlore Rangers
3 Elvish Archdruid
4 Elvish Visionary
3 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Heritage Druid
1 Joraga Warcaller
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Quirion Ranger
1 Regal Force
4 Wirewood Symbiote

4 Glimpse of Nature
3 Living Wish
4 Summoner's Pact

2 Bayou
4 Forest
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs


Board:

3 Buried Alive
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Joraga Warcaller
1 Masticore
1 Regal Force
3 Vengevine
3 Vexing Shusher
1 Viridian Zealot

[catmint]

Alternative:

-2 Green Sun's Zenith
-1 Emrakul
-1 Gaea's Cradle

+4 Living Wish

This is basically like running 4 Gaea's Cradle also which seems good. Plus you get Bojuka Bog, Karakas, random answers.

I'd also want to move Viridian Zealot off for Caller of the Claw, since it seems like there's a lot of reasonable situations where Summoner's Pact for Caller turns a game loss into a win.

Pact for Caller only if you have a cradle, because you usually need elves to pay for pact...
3-4 wish + bojuka bog should be good enough answer for dredge...

What I like about the build with the 4 titania is that it abuses this card a lot for mana acceleration. Not sure if sacrificing 1 card (spirit guide) is worth it for playing titania in T1... But the basic gameplan to get titania/archdruid out and have tons of mana next turn with 7-8 untap effects + 4 glimpse, and with GSZ, Pact + regal overall 11 cards to go off...
The good thing of having 2 GSZ is that it also give access to protection (zealot)... I am thinking about a similar build with additional protection using eternal witness.

I like GSZ more than Genesis wave because if I have 8+ mana in T3 i rather GSZ for regal to go off the same turn instead of casting a wave for x = 5.

Probably going to Goldfish and playtest this one:
Creatures

3 Elvish Archdruid
3 Priest of Titania
3 Elvish Visionary
4 Heritage Druid
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Quirion Ranger
1 Regal Force
1 Viridian Zealot
4 Wirewood Symbiote
1 Eternal Witness
2 Fyndhorn Elves
1 Joraga Warcaller

Instants
4 Summoner's Pact

Legendary Creatures
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

Sorceries
4 Glimpse of Nature
2 Green Sun's Zenith

Basic Lands
5 Forest
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs

Legendary Lands
1 Gaea's Cradle

SB
1 Viridian Zealot
2 Krosan Grip
4 Natural Order
1 Progenitus
3 Null Rod
2 Choke
2 Fecundity

[voltron00x]

That list is light on lands and soft to ANT/TES, in my opinion.

Also, when you have 27 mana on turn 3, what are you going to get with GSZ for x=26 that's better than Genesis Wave for x=24?

[Mulligan]

Matt, doesn't he run the same number of lands as you, at least from your recent article?

I think if you have 27 mana on turn 3 you have won anyway, regardless of which spell you play, but I think GSZ is more useful when facing hate to tutor up viridian zealot or gaddock teeg, and get through a chalice/CB/spell snare, or just as an additional tutor to grab an archdruid/hertitage/sentinel and set up the win next turn when you don't have as much mana available.

[bakofried]

He runs the *same* number of lands, but he's also using Cradle, which is not only vulnerable to Waste but leads to unkeepable hands. I'm in the Wish camp when it comes to Cradle.

[catmint]

That list is light on lands and soft to ANT/TES, in my opinion.

Also, when you have 27 mana on turn 3, what are you going to get with GSZ for x=26 that's better than Genesis Wave for x=24?

True - in my local meta there is not a lot of combo.. sideboard would have to change.
If we wave we give our opponent 1 turn to act ...if i have 27 mana and GSZ for regal force to get a glimpse I win the same turn casting emrakul...

but as mulligan said.. its not about the obvious win's where it does not really matter... what if we have 10 mana in T3? GSZ for force or wave fox X = 7?
... and the utility of GSZ + witness/zealot/... can be helful in difficult matchups. Wave does not provide that..

[catmint]

He runs the *same* number of lands, but he's also using Cradle, which is not only vulnerable to Waste but leads to unkeepable hands. I'm in the Wish camp when it comes to Cradle.

k2thej plays 13 forests as well in his wish build and many people (including myself) tested with 13 forests successfully...
I am going to goldfish my list (70 games) to compare how it plays vs. the other lists I goldfished...

[voltron00x]

k2thej plays 13 forests as well in his wish build and many people (including myself) tested with 13 forests successfully...
I am going to goldfish my list (70 games) to compare how it plays vs. the other lists I goldfished...

Don't those lists usually have more than 6 mana elves? I usually play the full 8 when I play 14 lands, with no Cradle.

[k2thej]

Ya I play 13 forest/fetch but I have 7 mana elves.

[catmint]

So my list has 1 mana elve less but 1 cradle.. should be fine I guess...
With a quirion T1 I am also able to play titania/visionary t2

[k2thej]

Ya the main thing is that the 13 non-cradle lands let you have enough keepable hands. Once you go lower it starts to become real shaky.

[catmint]

Here my goldfish results for the new list (again 71 games). Here the results compared with my old goldfishing:

K2's wish list:
T2: started combo: 14% finished successfully 40%
T3: started combo: 31% finished successfully 100%
T4: started combo: 35% finished successfully 100%
Mulligan: 15%

My black list with thoughtseize and diabolic intent
T2: started 6% finisehd successful 75%
T3: started 39% finished successful 64%
T4: started 35% finished successful 96%
Mulligan: 18%
In 25% before I started to combo I was able to play protection (thoughtseize)
I used diabolic intent 13% of the time to tutor for glimpse or an important elve.

My titania/GSZ list
T2: started 13% finished successful 67%
T3: started 46% finished successful 97%
T4: started 23% finished successful 94%
Mulligan: 10%

What I found is that if not able to combo of in T2 the best T2 play next to quirion is priest of titania to generate huge amout of mana t3. I'll probably change to 2 archdruids for 1 more priest (2/4 instead of 3/3).
Witness and GSZ disturb sometimes early combo but with a little mana they can be helfpuf (returning a pact or tutoring for wirewood or somethign useful). I also asked myself in some T3 situations if I would prefer to have a GSZ for force or to have a genesis wave. I have to admit there were ~3 ridicolous situations where I had tons of mana and drew 5+ cards with force, but did not get a glimpse. As mentioned earlier probably not relevant. :)

There were also 2 situaitons where I had such an aggro bomb turn 3 with 6+ 8/8+ elves, but this this games count as "not going off"...

I am going to playtest more and I am curious if witness/zealot pay off

[k2thej]

Here my goldfish results for the new list (again 71 games). Here the results compared with my old goldfishing:

K2's wish list:
T2: started combo: 14% finished successfully 40%
T3: started combo: 31% finished successfully 100%
T4: started combo: 35% finished successfully 100%
Mulligan: 15%

My black list with thoughtseize and diabolic intent
T2: started 6% finisehd successful 75%
T3: started 39% finished successful 64%
T4: started 35% finished successful 96%
Mulligan: 18%
In 25% before I started to combo I was able to play protection (thoughtseize)
I used diabolic intent 13% of the time to tutor for glimpse or an important elve.

My titania/GSZ list
T2: started 13% finished successful 67%
T3: started 46% finished successful 97%
T4: started 23% finished successful 94%
Mulligan: 10%

What I found is that if not able to combo of in T2 the best T2 play next to quirion is priest of titania to generate huge amout of mana t3. I'll probably change to 2 archdruids for 1 more priest (2/4 instead of 3/3).
Witness and GSZ disturb sometimes early combo but with a little mana they can be helfpuf (returning a pact or tutoring for wirewood or somethign useful). I also asked myself in some T3 situations if I would prefer to have a GSZ for pact or to have a genesis wave. I have to admit there were ~3 ridicolous situations where I had tons of mana and drew 5+ cards with force, but did not get a glimpse. As mentioned earlier probably not relevant. :)

There were also 2 situaitons where I had such an aggro bomb turn 3 with 6+ 8/8+ elves, but this this games count as "not going off"...

I am going to playtest more and I am curious if witness/zealot pay off

If you cut to two archdruids how is your aggro plan?

[bakofried]

I'm wondering how this plays against and through disruption a la Deadguy Ale. Stoneforge for Jitte, Hymn, Sculler, and Seize all MDed. Do you just try and abuse Visionary+Symbiote as much as you can?

[catmint]

There are many other disruption pieces we have to worry more as the one you mentioned bakofried...

@k2: concerning aggro plan. Have to test if 1 warcaller + 2 archdruids (+ GSZ/pact tutors) is enough for an alternative aggro plan.
..i just like to test a lot of differnt options...

[bakofried]

I'm very confused, catmint. Are you saying those cards are the least of our troubles, or what? Please explain.

[catmint]

I'm very confused, catmint. Are you saying those cards are the least of our troubles, or what? Please explain.

I would not say the least of our troubles, but there are certain things that hurt us more.
Jitte is ugly, but if we combo off t3-4 it is too slow...
The early common disruption that hurts us much more is effective removal & countermagic in T1-3 (bolt, swords, demise, inquision, fire-ice, daze, FoW) as well as bombs like EE and Chalice...

Do you guys have some experience with reanimator?
I feel we have a very bad matchup since they are fast in getting iona in and have a disruption package with duress & FoW that can stop us effectively...

[k2thej]

I would not say the least of our troubles, but there are certain things that hurt us more.
Jitte is ugly, but if we combo off t3-4 it is too slow...
The early common disruption that hurts us much more is effective removal & countermagic in T1-3 (bolt, swords, demise, inquision, fire-ice, daze, FoW) as well as bombs like EE and Chalice...

Do you guys have some experience with reanimator?
I feel we have a very bad matchup since they are fast in getting iona in and have a disruption package with duress & FoW that can stop us effectively...

Ya I haven't played reanimator that much, but when dredge used to be heavy on dred-returning iona that sucked. Wishing in Bojuka bog is great against dredge, but we need an instant speed GY removal spell to combat renimator. I think it is not common enough of a deck to warrent a spot in the board though. We still have an ok shot at racing them, and we need answers to countermagic (shusher/leyline) and answers to sweepers (VV/Buried Alive, fecundity, caller) more.

[abel_lg]

Also GSZ for Witness having a Glimpse or Pact is simply marvellous, altought with one Glimpse is enough, having the second allow us to play more comfortable against a FoW or simply reach best the goldfish.

[gypsy]

can anyone post a GSZ version, ive been playing the genesis wave list but want to look at other options to see what works the best

[Koby]

I was testing a version with 4 GSZ recently and an interesting situation occured. I was comboing off, and ended up with Emrakul being on the bottom 3 cards, with 2 active Glimpses. In order to draw the Emrakul without decking myself, I used GSZ for 0 to shuffle them back in and safely draw the required amount of cards, then cast Emrakul, then cast GSZ again to shuffle back in to prevent decking (again).

It's a small trick, but a definite improvement over previous incarnations of the Emrakul style kill. I could see running 2 GSZ in a normal build now for this reason alone. Also, being able to tutor up Wirewood Symbiote is just gravy too, even if you don't draw cards off it directly.

[catmint]

I was testing a version with 4 GSZ recently and an interesting situation occured. I was comboing off, and ended up with Emrakul being on the bottom 3 cards, with 2 active Glimpses. In order to draw the Emrakul without decking myself, I used GSZ for 0 to shuffle them back in and safely draw the required amount of cards, then cast Emrakul, then cast GSZ again to shuffle back in to prevent decking (again).

It's a small trick, but a definite improvement over previous incarnations of the Emrakul style kill. I could see running 2 GSZ in a normal build now for this reason alone. Also, being able to tutor up Wirewood Symbiote is just gravy too, even if you don't draw cards off it directly.

Haha I had exaclty the same situation.. 1 active glimpse emrakul beeing the last card... i casted GSZ for 0 2 times before I had Emrakul. My opponent had to laugh :).

Her the GSZ I am currently testing gypsy:
I try to have a very strong combo plan in G1. it is to find out if 2 Achrduid (with 2 GSZ) + 1 warcaller is a good enough aggro option.
In g2 I either side in some hate cards depending on the matchup trying not to hurt the combo that much or if the opponent is likely to side in chalice or canonist, I switch to the Natural Order Plan.

Creatures

2 Elvish Archdruid
4 Priest of Titania
3 Elvish Visionary
4 Heritage Druid
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Quirion Ranger
1 Regal Force
1 Viridian Zealot
4 Wirewood Symbiote
1 Eternal Witness
2 Fyndhorn Elves
1 Joraga Warcaller

Instants
4 Summoner's Pact

Legendary Creatures
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

Sorceries
4 Glimpse of Nature
2 Green Sun's Zenith

Basic Lands
5 Forest
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs

Legendary Lands
1 Gaea's Cradle

SB
2 Krosan Grip
3 Null rod
3 Mindbreak Trap
2 Relic of Progenitus
4 Natural Order
1 Progenitus

[Shabbaman]

Looks good, but you have no outs against Peacekeeper. That's what I liked about wishing into Masticore. There's stuff like Granger Guildmage that you could get with Zenith, Pact or NO.

[catmint]

Looks good, but you have no outs against Peacekeeper. That's what I liked about wishing into Masticore. There's stuff like Granger Guildmage that you could get with Zenith, Pact or NO.

So far I never saw a Peacekeeper. I think decks that play white side in classic combo hate vs. us. I also think they rather use wrath or moat or magus of the tabernacle to hate out creatures. Peacekeeper does not seem like a good card choice for these decks because most decks that kill with creatures also have removal and get rid of a small creature very easily. So I think altough it would be an autowin vs. most elve builds, it is bad overall and therefore not very common.

Do you have different experiences?

[1maarten1]

So far I never saw a Peacekeeper. I think decks that play white side in classic combo hate vs. us. I also think they rather use wrath or moat or magus of the tabernacle to hate out creatures. Peacekeeper does not seem like a good card choice for these decks because most decks that kill with creatures also have removal and get rid of a small creature very easily. So I think altough it would be an autowin vs. most elve builds, it is bad overall and therefore not very common.

Do you have different experiences?

I have seen some peacekeepers, I run a singleton Mortarpod in the board which is nearly always enough because peacekeeper only keeps you from attacking, not from going off. Same for enchantments like moat, confinement etc. i just run a singleton reverent silence.

[catmint]

I checked Matt Elias' Article "Legacy cookbook Spring 2011" where many archetypes and current builds are listed.
2 decks run peacekeeper:

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/21448_The_Long_And_Winding_Road_The_Legacy_Cookbook_Spring_2011.html

1st is dreadstill. here the comment:
"At one point, Dreadstill was one of the key players in the Legacy format, but it hasn't had much buzz of late. However, there are a lot of reasons to consider Dreadstill today. Rich Shay brought Peacekeeper into today's Legacy format, a card that can lock out some strategies, especially Merfolk, a strategy many CB/Top decks struggle against."

If I take a look at the sideboard, I would rather worry about 4 Plague + 2 Perish.

The 2nd archetype listed there with a peacekeeper was doomsday combo.
In the SCG Open I also found an U/W landstill build with 3 peacekeeper in the SB and 1 CB/Thopter with 1 Peacekeeper (Both in Top 16).

So, I was wrong.. the card is more popular has more value than I thought...

Still not sure if it is worth to sacrifice a SB spot for it... in all lists and SB that I saw, there were many other things to worry about, which would be more likely sided in, being played more often...

[1maarten1]

I checked Matt Elias' Article "Legacy cookbook Spring 2011" where many archetypes and current builds are listed.
2 decks run peacekeeper:

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/21448_The_Long_And_Winding_Road_The_Legacy_Cookbook_Spring_2011.html

1st is dreadstill. here the comment:
"At one point, Dreadstill was one of the key players in the Legacy format, but it hasn't had much buzz of late. However, there are a lot of reasons to consider Dreadstill today. Rich Shay brought Peacekeeper into today's Legacy format, a card that can lock out some strategies, especially Merfolk, a strategy many CB/Top decks struggle against."

If I take a look at the sideboard, I would rather worry about 4 Plague + 2 Perish.

The 2nd archetype listed there with a peacekeeper was doomsday combo.
In the SCG Open I also found an U/W landstill build with 3 peacekeeper in the SB and 1 CB/Thopter with 1 Peacekeeper (Both in Top 16).

So, I was wrong.. the card is more popular has more value than I thought...

Still not sure if it is worth to sacrifice a SB spot for it... in all lists and SB that I saw, there were many other things to worry about, which would be more likely sided in, being played more often...

Ofcourse there are other, more important, things to worry about. But I would HATE it when I manage to combo off through the more common hate and then get stomped by a peacekeeper. its not like you have to dedicate alot of cards here.. 1 is enough (mortarpod/masticore) and still the rest of your sb can be tuned to beat more common hate cards in your meta.

[catmint]

Ofcourse there are other, more important, things to worry about. But I would HATE it when I manage to combo off through the more common hate and then get stomped by a peacekeeper. its not like you have to dedicate alot of cards here.. 1 is enough (mortarpod/masticore) and still the rest of your sb can be tuned to beat more common hate cards in your meta.

1 SB spot is a lot for me. Since I use 5 for NO, Prog, there is not so much left. adn the balance between GY, combo or control hate is not easy..
How does your sideboard look?
mine:
2 Krosan Grip
3 Null rod
3 Mindbreak Trap
2 Relic of Progenitus
4 Natural Order
1 Progenitus

..maybe if I once loose to a peacekeeper, I will change my mind. :)
hehe

[Shabbaman]

..maybe if I once loose to a peacekeeper, I will change my mind. :)
hehe

I think that's a good attitude. But with this being a forum and all, where we like to nitpick over every detail in theory, I found it was my job to point it out ;) If there'd be a Peacekeeper heavy metagame I'd rather stick to the Storm plan instead of sideboarding odd green cards to answer. That, or the wishboard.

[catmint]

I think that's a good attitude. But with this being a forum and all, where we like to nitpick over every detail in theory, I found it was my job to point it out ;) If there'd be a Peacekeeper heavy metagame I'd rather stick to the Storm plan instead of sideboarding odd green cards to answer. That, or the wishboard.

I was also thinking about that banefire or grapeshot would help vs. that problem. But since there is no Birchlore in my current list its not an option...

[abel_lg]

I've seen some versions with a singletone Ulamog to preventing things like this (also helps for a Moat/Confinement, not only rely on Emrakul's annihilator 6). If I had to choose between Mortapod and Masticore, maybe Masticore it's a better option due to it's tutorable with Pact, GSZ. I know that if we want to side this is to the extreme position in which we go off and a Peacekeeper stops us, and we have Glimpse to draw it and also Mortapod cost less mana, but I prefer casting Emrakul and after that, tutor a Masticore to kill Peacekeeper, ¿also Triskelion? Hurricane is too risky but you don't need another color splash or Birchlore in maindeck, altough a singletone Birchlore maybe it's possible.