New Competitive Eternal Format Coming

[kkoie]

Is it just me or has this thread totally derailed? The conversation of whether or not legacy is affordable has come to an empasse. I suggest we get back to the original question: Does Magic need another format?

Asside from price, I say no. It definately does not! It will take away from Legacy as well as Extended. I think the enviroment is healthy enough as it is with two constructed and two eternal formats. To add another would make it a convaluted mess!

[yankeedave]

Is it just me or has this thread totally derailed? The conversation of whether or not legacy is affordable has come to an empasse. I suggest we get back to the original question: Does Magic need another format?

Asside from price, I say no. It definately does not! It will take away from Legacy as well as Extended. I think the enviroment is healthy enough as it is with two constructed and two eternal formats. To add another would make it a convaluted mess!

Short answer? They get rid of Extended and Legacy, and just have Vintage, "Overextended", and Standard. That's how they avoid a mess.

[Nelis]

Hopefully that will be Legacy, Overextended and Standard

[ddt15]

I don't see how this would be cheaper, Tarmo would still be the best creature, and still be just as if not more expensive than it is now. Well it would be cheaper but not by a significant amount to justify making a new format out of it.

[kkoie]

Dropping Legacy or Vintage as a format... what kind of suggestion is that?! Thats implying they have a problem. Personally I see no problem. They could use more participants, but thats not a reason to drop them. I mean everyone knows that 2200 people in one tournament is a sign that a format is very unhealthy and no one is interested.

As far as cost as an argument... thats silly. I've played MtG for 16 years. I've invested approx. $9000 on my collection over that period of time, which is currently valued at $15000 btw. Thats around $560 a year. We are talking around 2 boxes a quarter (if you consider the historical rise in cost of booster boxes, $140 a qtr would average 2 boxes approximately). I know people who play standard who spend more than that every quarter and I have a collection that allows me to play virtually any vintage deck I want. Hell if you subtract the money I invested trading and buying p9, Mishra's Workshops, Bazaar's, etc etc... I've spent a lot less than that to play Legacy!

[quadibloc]

Dropping Legacy or Vintage as a format... what kind of suggestion is that?! Thats implying they have a problem. Personally I see no problem. They could use more participants, but thats not a reason to drop them.I agree that neither of those formats should be dropped.

I think the new format fills a need, though. Yes, Legacy doesn't really cost more than Standard... but not everyone who plays Standard spends the money to get four Baneslayers, and what money they do spend is spent gradually over time - and hence not noticed. It may not be rational, but people see the price of an Underground Sea, and ask why they should spend that much just to play a card game.

So the new format provides an accessible, popular Eternal format, and so the Extended players are happy their cards don't fall into limbo when they rotate out... so Extended thrives, and Standard players are happy, because their cards now have a more comfortable home to rotate to.

Standard is where Wizards makes its money: Legacy is supported because it indirectly helps Standard, and so if it can't do that job as well as it used to, a new format can pick up the slack. I hope that doesn't meant that Wizards dumps either Vintage or Legacy, and I don't think it needs to mean that.

[Nelis]

I don't see how this would be cheaper, Tarmo would still be the best creature, and still be just as if not more expensive than it is now. Well it would be cheaper but not by a significant amount to justify making a new format out of it.

It won't. The format itself might be a bit cheaper than legacy because Ravnica duals never be as expensive as old duals. But would make make other formats more expensive. A lose - lose - lose situation.

[kurterickson]

All this talk of Force of Will and such still being expensive... A lot of Legacy staples arent on the reserve list.

[Cire]

What if they just ban all the original Dual lands in legacy? Isn't that really where most of if not all the really expense comes from? And once they're banned then decks would theoretically stop splashing as much, reducing the amounts of money rares they run per capita? I mean it won't be legacy as we know it, but losing ten cards would be better than half our card pool, and truthfully the new format would really just be legacy - duals anyway, and this way we keep force of will.

[lordofthepit]

What if they just ban all the original Dual lands in legacy? Isn't that really where most of if not all the really expense comes from? And once they're banned then decks would theoretically stop splashing as much, reducing the amounts of money rares they run per capita? I mean it won't be legacy as we know it, but losing ten cards would be better than half our card pool, and truthfully the new format would really just be legacy - duals anyway, and this way we keep force of will.

I can't afford anything that I can't find in the 10c common bin. Let's ban all the rares and uncommons too, except for the ones I got in my Stronghold preconstructed deck, I like those.

[Cire]

I can't afford anything that I can't find in the 10c common bin. Let's ban all the rares and uncommons too, except for the ones I got in my Stronghold preconstructed deck, I like those.

Hilarious

I like legacy, i don't want a new overextended whatever, i was only trying to suggest one way we can keep the majority of our card pool, but thanks for the sarcasm, i mean i was obviously trying to contact wizard with their only option because i hate duals. My god, did you ever think its attitudes like your that hamper legacy growth?

[rleader]

What if they just ban all the original Dual lands in legacy?

I'd rather ban fetches, honestly. People who say they like playing Legacy because they always liked their duals are being a bit disingenous since the lands having a land-type never factored into play back in the day; the duals play completely differently now. Fetches are also part of the reason all the new lands suck in comparison.

If fetches went (besides giving blue a kick in the junk) it would mostly turn the duals into a prestige item, rather than a necessary item. I think decks like Bant could still survive just fine (ponder/brainstorm would find the necessary lands in time) and it's not like anyone is playing 4-5 color landstill like people were a few years back. We'd have to see if wasteland would become too powerful or if Dragon Stompy was lucksacking too many games though.

[DragoFireheart]

If fetchlands were gotten rid of, land destruction decks like Tempo Thresh would be significantly weakened.

[Gheizen64]

Also, it make less sense to ban fetches when they have neo-printed them 1 set ago. If the economic situation become unsustainable, i could see the duals go. But i don't think anyone would like that.

[lordofthepit]

Hilarious

I like legacy, i don't want a new overextended whatever, i was only trying to suggest one way we can keep the majority of our card pool, but thanks for the sarcasm, i mean i was obviously trying to contact wizard with their only option because i hate duals. My god, did you ever think its attitudes like your that hamper legacy growth?


I apologize for the tone of my earlier post. To put it nicely, I think your is a very narrow-minded one, but I'll dignify it with a response without being sarcastic. Here's why it is ill-advised and why I hope Wizards doesn't take it seriously:

1) Dual lands allow for greater diversity of decks. This much is obvious, and it is largely for this reason that Legacy has the healthiest metagame and why its tournaments have the biggest turnouts.

2) Dual lands are one of the defining features of Legacy, if not the most defining feature. Your suggestion that they ban dual lands from Legacy because you don't like them, but still want to play cards like Force of Will, would be like me asking for Wizards to create a new format because I don't want like Power 9, but want to play Necropotence and Yawgmoth's Will. And on top of that, getting rid of the existing Vintage format. Can you imagine that suggestion going over well at all?

3) You are asking to narrowly tailor their policies to your preferences, which are not representative of the Legacy community. Obviously, they can't please anybody, and your opinion would be controversial to say the least among people who play Legacy. Earlier this decade, when control formats dominated Vintage, many players asked Wizards to ban Islands because they didn't like them, and some were only half-joking. You can't see why that would be a problem?

4) There is no precedent to banning mana producing lands, outside of obviously broken ones like Tolarian Academy and Mishra's Workshop, and dual lands are clearly not in that category. In fact, if anything, it would be more reasonable to ADD an exception to allow dual lands in a format in which A/B/U/R cards are generally not legal, which is what they did with Extended when Revised rotated out about 10 years ago.

5) Price is not a reason to ban cards. Although Wizards considered the secondary market to some extent when creating the ban list for the new Legacy format (when separating T1.5 from T1), they have never used price in their decision on which cards to ban. Otherwise, there are many cards that would go well before the Duals: Moat, Tabernacle, most of the P3K cards, along with a host of others. In fact, the desire you expressed to continue playing with Force of Will (which I assume you own) is entirely inconsistent with this because Force of Will is more expensive than half of the duals (the non-blue ones minus Taiga).

6) Wizards should avoid regulating the secondary market. Even if you do ban on the basis of price, you've now created a slippery slope, the 10c commons format that I alluded to being the obviously extreme. If you ban the duals, and shocklands are now $20-40 a piece, do you now screw over players who have their shocklands in addition to those who have their duals? I'm not exactly Adam Smith, but I do think Wizards meddling in the secondary market would compromise the trust of the community.

7) Legacy is thriving as a format. I do acknowledge that the rising prices of Legacy staples may eventually be a problem, but it is currently as popular as it's ever been and continuing to grow. In fact, there are more than enough duals to allow the format to continue to support more growth, as I alluded to in a previous thread. With a total of 3 million dual lands available, and the average deck WITH dual lands averaging about 5-6 duals, not to mention all the decks that don't require dual lands, Legacy can support well over a million decks, which is orders of magnitude more than the format needs to be "healthy".

Now, there is still a prohibitive barrier to entry: 12-year-old Johnny or homeless Billy Joe Bob may not be able to afford to own their own Countertop Legacy deck, but that's inherent in the very nature of collectible card games. Fortunately, they're welcome to play underpowered, to borrow decks, or to play other formats like Standard, Extended, Limited, Pauper, Peasant, Singleton, or even this hypothetical "Overextended" format.

[rleader]

Also, it make less sense to ban fetches when they have neo-printed them 1 set ago. If the economic situation become unsustainable, i could see the duals go.

It's the fetches that are inspiring the economic situation though: it doesn't matter that you can get the new ones for $10 a pop, they're the reason why Underground Sea is 10x better than Sunken Ruins. Take fetches away and there's about four different competing ways to build a fairly solid manabase and then maybe the tempo loss of shard-trilands becomes almost bearable. Thus the original duals would become more of a vanity item (although often still optimal) than a requirement to play in the format.

I'm not advocating this, just saying that it's an option, especially if players are MOST wed to the idea of duals = legacy.

OTOH, maybe that's an untruth and players are REALLY wedded to the idea of duals as they've functioned since 2002.

In which case, that "compelling" aspect of the format is really only half as old as a lot of legacy fans like to pretend it is.

[majikal]

Jesus Christ, can we just lock this thread already? We're starting to go in circles.

[MMogg]

Post #144:
I think this thread has run its course.

Post #267
Jesus Christ, can we just lock this thread already? We're starting to go in circles.

Indeed, you're chasing your tail. :tongue:

[moxpearl]

Regarding the talk about banning duals in Legacy, does anyone have any idea how many Ravnica duals exist and how much better the availability would be than revised duals?

[Cire]

@ lordofthepit: thank you, for the corrected, substantial and polite address to my suggestion. You make valid points, yet one thing i want to stress is that I am not advocating no Duals, or even hate duals,its not my preference; just ask yourself the question what format would you rather play; Dual-less Legacy or Overextended? Obviously the answer is "leave legacy alone," but if overextended is a seriously considered option, then Legacy is in trouble, and if that is true i would rather have it Dual-less than it lose support and popularity to the hypothetical format

[majikal]

Post #144:

Post #267

Indeed, you're chasing your tail. :tongue:
Hardy har har har. :really:

Seriously, though. In the 123 posts between the two posts that I have made, there has been nothing new brought to the table. This entire thread consists of "NO FOW MEANS STORM WILL BE BUSTED" and "LETS JUST BAN THE DUAL LANDS" and "NO WAI I WANTS MAH DUAL LANDS".

All anyone is going off of is a post by a guy on Salvation with no credibility and an episode of The Magic Show that got its information from that same post. The more you idiots keep adding to this urban legend, the bigger it's going to grow, until the marketing people at WotC actually do take notice, and then they'll probably do just the oposite of what everyone is suggesting and fuck things up even more. Just let it rest.

[lordofthepit]

@ lordofthepit: thank you, for the corrected, substantial and polite address to my suggestion. You make valid points, yet one thing i want to stress is that I am not advocating no Duals, or even hate duals,its not my preference; just ask yourself the question what format would you rather play; Dual-less Legacy or Overextended? Obviously the answer is "leave legacy alone," but if overextended is a seriously considered option, then Legacy is in trouble, and if that is true i would rather have it Dual-less than it lose support and popularity to the hypothetical format

If those were the two options, I think I'd prefer dual-less Legacy, but I think while Overextended will take away from the Legacy crowd, it wouldn't do so in any amount significant enough to hurt the format precisely because so many people like their dual lands. I think I'd also prefer to sell out of the game and play casual exclusively with my friends over MWS before I allow either to happen though. :smile:

Thanks for clarifying your point though. I incorrectly assumed you wanted to ban duals just for the sake of doing so, but I think that your assumption that the format will either be "Legacy without duals or Overextended" is incorrect--or at least I hope so for the sake of the format! I have some confidence that Wizards will do the right thing though--they once sanctioned an "Extended plus duals" format precisely because people liked their duals so much, so I can't see them doing basically the opposite with a "Legacy minus duals".

[MMogg]

What I don't understand is why some people seemed threatened by the talk of another format as if it will replace Legacy. Formats are played because they are fun or because they are necessary to qualify for the Pro Tour... how many people do you think play for the latter reason? Even though Extended is a promoted format, it has seen declining popularity over the years, so what does that tell us about the potential decline of Legacy? If people like Legacy, they'll play it; if they don't, they won't. Simple as that. I'm not a devoted follower of any one format and it's kind of silly to be. If the format is good and you enjoy it, play it.

[Nelis]

What I don't understand is why some people seemed threatened by the talk of another format as if it will replace Legacy. Formats are played because they are fun or because they are necessary to qualify for the Pro Tour... how many people do you think play for the latter reason? Even though Extended is a promoted format, it has seen declining popularity over the years, so what does that tell us about the potential decline of Legacy? If people like Legacy, they'll play it; if they don't, they won't. Simple as that. I'm not a devoted follower of any one format and it's kind of silly to be. If the format is good and you enjoy it, play it.

I don't know about that. For me it would take away a lot of the fun if Wizards wouldn't support Legacy as an official format anymore. I mean, I would still like it but I wouldn't, if you get what I mean. I'll never be on the pro tour but I love the competitiveness of official tournaments. And I'm sure as hell not going to keep expensive cards like duals just to play magic at my kitchen table. If they decide to drop Legacy there's a big chance I quit magic as a whole (well I'd still be playing peasant). I don't play any other formats apart from an occasional draft and pre-releases. Would you still trust Wizards in anything they do in the future if they'd decide to drop Legacy (or any other format)? I won't.

[MMogg]

I don't know about that. For me it would take away a lot of the fun if Wizards wouldn't support Legacy as an official format anymore. I mean, I would still like it but I wouldn't, if you get what I mean. I'll never be on the pro tour but I love the competitiveness of official tournaments. And I'm sure as hell not going to keep expensive cards like duals just to play magic at my kitchen table. If they decide to drop Legacy there's a big chance I quit magic as a whole (well I'd still be playing peasant). I don't play any other formats apart from an occasional draft and pre-releases. Would you still trust Wizards in anything they do in the future if they'd decide to drop Legacy (or any other format)? I won't.

Well, EDH has been gaining popularity and obviously that isn't DCI supported either. Formats don't necessarily need a Pro Tour season to be playable and fun. I guess it all comes down to motivation and why each individual plays what they play. For me, the day I give up my duals is the day they pry them from my cold, dead hands. I'll keep them for kitchen table Magic, no probs.

It depends what you mean by trust. I do trust them to some extent, because they have had a lot of experience and have managed to give us Legacy as it is today. If they were to drop it and they gave us another format equally fun, then sure, I would play.

Hard to say since this is speculation based on speculation. :laugh:

[Trans Am]

Well, EDH has been gaining popularity and obviously that isn't DCI supported either. Formats don't necessarily need a Pro Tour season to be playable and fun. I guess it all comes down to motivation and why each individual plays what they play. For me, the day I give up my duals is the day they pry them from my cold, dead hands. I'll keep them for kitchen table Magic, no probs.

It depends what you mean by trust. I do trust them to some extent, because they have had a lot of experience and have managed to give us Legacy as it is today. If they were to drop it and they gave us another format equally fun, then sure, I would play.

Hard to say since this is speculation based on speculation. :laugh:

Yeah, and EDH decks used to cost like $5 to build.

And its not necessarily that a new format would make legacy less fun and cause people to stop playing it. Its that even though legacy is at an all time high right now, the player base is too scattered. If 14 people show up at a store to play and 7 want to play legacy and 7 want to play hypothetical magic make believe, then there wont be enough to go either way and someone will have to give. All this format would do, would be to stretch a thin player base even thinner. So you can want to play legacy all you want, but if your store has FNM on fridays and cheap ass knock off format on saturdays, when will there be time for real legacy ?

Speculation is the shit.

[Nelis]

It depends what you mean by trust. I do trust them to some extent, because they have had a lot of experience and have managed to give us Legacy as it is today. If they were to drop it and they gave us another format equally fun, then sure, I would play.



I don't trust wizards at all. I know their main objective is to make money but its getting out of hand and I feel they only make decisions based on making more money. That's their right but they sure as hell do not listen to the players, they just pretend to do so. Inviting some key persons (not even players but card shop owners) to talk with like they did a while back is all just a publicity stunt if you ask me. They give us just enough to keep us happy but they don't do shit for us. And they're getting away with it. It's the same everywhere (politics, business) and we're the ones who are getting screwed anally. And we're happy to let ourselves being screwed (I'm no exception). Wizards is the Goldman Sachs of the collectible card game industry. You get mad at them, they throw you a bone and then continue do do what they've always done. Magic is like money, you need it to survive and really can't do without it :laugh:

@Trans Am: you're absolutely right, that's exactly what's going to happen.

[MMogg]

@ Neils: Well, I have no idea what their profit margins are, but I disagree that I'm being screwed. It takes a lot of effort on their part to put out set after set and keep it interesting and exciting. If they make a bad set and no one buys it, then they're pretty much screwed. It is in their benefit/interest to make the product appealing, so I don't think it's as bad as you say. Theatre (cinema) tickets are crazy expensive, but people pay. People moan about the price of popcorn while stuffing their faces. It's entertainment. They provide a service and we buy it; no one is screwing any one... unless that is the service you're buying. :wink:

@ Trans Am: stop confusing the situation with reason and logic. Let me live in fantasy land about everyone playing every format. :wink: I would say it's definitely true for America/Canada/Australia that places are too scattered, but it seems some areas like in Spain, they have a flourishing eternal scene. Anyway, I see your point, but I still think it's a bit nuts to be so threatened by this hypothetical format considering it is an Extended replacement more than anything.

[dahcmai]

Cough...


http://img709.imageshack.us/img709/580/deadhorsex.gif

[Nelis]

@ Neils: Well, I have no idea what their profit margins are, but I disagree that I'm being screwed. It takes a lot of effort on their part to put out set after set and keep it interesting and exciting. If they make a bad set and no one buys it, then they're pretty much screwed. It is in their benefit/interest to make the product appealing, so I don't think it's as bad as you say. Theatre (cinema) tickets are crazy expensive, but people pay. People moan about the price of popcorn while stuffing their faces. It's entertainment. They provide a service and we buy it; no one is screwing any one... unless that is the service you're buying. :wink:


We pay because otherwise we'd really have a shitty life but does that mean they have to make that cinema ticket more expensive just because they can make more money out of it? I really don't understand why a company has to make 1 billion profit over our backs if they can make 500 million or even 10 million profit as well. Wouldn't we be happier society as a whole if people who do not make a lot of money (for whatever reason) could enjoy a movie night out as well? Wouldn't someone who makes a bit more money than that person be happier if he could enjoy a movie out AND take his girlfriend out for dinner afterwards, etc etc etc. Call me a socialist, call me a communist but these things really bother me especially since there's nothing I can do about it.

Oh look! A dead llama!

[Mr.C]

I'd rather ban fetches, honestly. People who say they like playing Legacy because they always liked their duals are being a bit disingenous since the lands having a land-type never factored into play back in the day; the duals play completely differently now. Fetches are also part of the reason all the new lands suck in comparison.

If fetches went (besides giving blue a kick in the junk) it would mostly turn the duals into a prestige item, rather than a necessary item. I think decks like Bant could still survive just fine (ponder/brainstorm would find the necessary lands in time) and it's not like anyone is playing 4-5 color landstill like people were a few years back. We'd have to see if wasteland would become too powerful or if Dragon Stompy was lucksacking too many games though.

I want to quote this, because I believe it is EXTREMELY correct. I was just playing shandalar the other day, and man, did I miss fetches. I'd say ban ons/zen fetches. yeah!

[Eddy Wally]

Banning fetches would make duals even more necessary. With enough fetchlands, it's possible to build a beck with a manabase based on basics. Not ideal, but possible. That won't work without fetches.

[DalkonCledwin]

Banning fetches would make duals even more necessary. With enough fetchlands, it's possible to build a beck with a manabase based on basics. Not ideal, but possible. That won't work without fetches.

why couldn't you make a mana base based on basic lands without fetch lands? seems that mono-red burn, death and taxes, dragon stompy, and several other decks including merfolk have been doing just that as of late, unless I am terribly missing something here...

[Eddy Wally]

why couldn't you make a mana base based on basic lands without fetch lands? seems that mono-red burn, death and taxes, dragon stompy, and several other decks including merfolk have been doing just that as of late, unless I am terribly missing something here...

All of those are monocoloured decks. Obviously, the ideal manabase for a two-coloured deck has all the required duals. But let's say I'm some new player who wishes to play, for example, goyfsligh. I have one single taiga from way back. With a full set of fetchlands, all of them affordable, I can make a somewhat functional Rg deck with my one taiga, enough fetchlands and one or two forests. I won't win a tournament with it but at least I can play. Without fetchlands I can't do this. They allow you to run fewer duals. Your idea would force people to play with four duals of each needed combination instead of allowing them to cut back. Demand for duals would increase.

[DalkonCledwin]

All of those are monocoloured decks. Obviously, the ideal manabase for a two-coloured deck has all the required duals. But let's say I'm some new player who wishes to play, for example, goyfsligh. I have one single taiga from way back. With a full set of fetchlands, all of them affordable, I can make a somewhat functional Rg deck with my one taiga, enough fetchlands and one or two forests. I won't win a tournament with it but at least I can play. Without fetchlands I can't do this. They allow you to run fewer duals. Your idea would force people to play with four duals of each needed combination instead of allowing them to cut back. Demand for duals would increase.

a goyf sligh deck with only 1 red source, and 3 green sources as well as how many fetch lands... playable? I hope you are at least including a few mountains and a few more than 2 forests on top of those fetch lands, otherwise your playing a really risky game.

[Eddy Wally]

a goyf sligh deck with only 1 red source, and 3 green sources as well as how many fetch lands... playable? I hope you are at least including a few mountains and a few more than 2 forests on top of those fetch lands, otherwise your playing a really risky game.

Is this an attempt to troll me? Obviously you add mountains.

[DalkonCledwin]

Is this an attempt to troll me? Obviously you add mountains.

sorry it wasn't meant as a troll, though I could see how it could be interpreted that way.

My point is this. If you have fetchlands AND Dual Lands in the same environment (regardless of if they are the originals or the ravnica duals, and assuming you ignore aggro in the case of the ravnica duals), you can in effect run any combination of colors that you want with relative ease.

On the flip side if you were to remove either of the dual land sets, or both of the dual land sets, and only have the fetch lands. Then you would be left with only utilizing Fetch Lands and the sub par M10 CiPT Lands and similar lands to help fix your mana base. The format would decrease in speed considerably.

Alternatively, if you were to remove the Fetch Lands from the environment, you would similarly decrease the speed of the format as mana fixing would become alot harder to achieve since you would have to rely on the sheer randomness of the draw and things like Sensei's Divining Top, Brainstorm, and Ponder to smooth out your mana base, something which we currently don't have to rely on.

Simply put, as far as a healthy legacy format is concerned, we kind of NEED both the fetch lands and the dual lands to be able to function in any simblance of the way that we currently function. Without them Legacy really is no longer what we would recognize as legacy.

And again, I apologize, that post was not intended to be a troll... I suppose I still have a lot to work on.

[DuxDucis]

Not sure if this came up yet but I sure liked Bill Stark's take on the whole thing. A whole lot more reasonable then the garbage that is the Magic Show.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZpXoScEHTI

[Eddy Wally]

No offense taken of course.

Anyhow: duals and fetches together make legacy a very fast format in which you can play any combination of colours you want, I agree with that. But as long as duals are legal, the fetchlands are the best guarantee that you don't need four of every one of them.

Too many people have invested in duals to see them banned. Here's an idea though: why not restrict duals in legacy? You can still use them, but demand will slow down. I know that vintage is the only format with a restricted list, but that wasn't always the case.

[DalkonCledwin]

I kind of like the idea of a restricted list, at least with regard to things on the reserved list. However I think that is making legacy too similar to Vintage and I doubt Wizards is interested in such an idea.

As far as Bill Stark's post on youtube. I am inclined to agree with him 100% that the person who initially posted this rumor on salvation is doing so without any journalistic integrity. But in a way, that is understandable, I mean many of the modern day rumor mongers for new sets do exactly the same thing, so it is hardly surprising that if someone has insider information about something other than a set design, especially when it comes to something that could potentially get them fired (assuming they work for wizards) or get legal action pushed against them (if they don't work for Wizards), that they would go out of their way to protect their identity.

[SpeedOfDark]

Not sure if this came up yet but I sure liked Bill Stark's take on the whole thing. A whole lot more reasonable then the garbage that is the Magic Show.

If by "reasonable" you mean "cynical," then I agree ;)

There's a lot of truth in Bill Stark's premise, however the conclusions he draws from it don't seem justified. The fact that this rumor is being discussed has nothing to do with believing or encouraging the original poster, its because the idea (whether true or false) is quite intriguing.

If people are so bothered that this much discussion can be spawned by a (most likely false) rumor, then I would suggest that they pretend the OP was a suggestion... if it helps them sleep at night.

@thread: personally, I am interested in this format. Don't get me wrong, I love legacy, but unfortunately wotc already crippled it beyond repair. If overextended ever exists, maybe it can just overwrite and replace extended. The idea that a format similar to legacy can have reprints and tournament support is exciting, to say the least. Even though legacy has a special place in my nerdy little heart, I don't see why this format couldn't replicate the diversity and deck building opportunities that attracted me to legacy in the first place.

[quadibloc]

If people are so bothered that this much discussion can be spawned by a (most likely false) rumor, then I would suggest that they pretend the OP was a suggestion... if it helps them sleep at night.On the one hand, I'm glad that some positive consideration of the suggestion has now happened. But I'm also bothered because back when it was just a suggestion, the reaction to the idea was almost completely negative - it took turning it into a rumor, perhaps dishonestly, to get the idea considered seriously.

[SpeedOfDark]

But I'm also bothered because back when it was just a suggestion, the reaction to the idea was almost completely negative - it took turning it into a rumor, perhaps dishonestly, to get the idea considered seriously.

Yes, I agree this is indeed disturbing, but it's certainly nothing new: many are irrational.

not @you, but just because I like to hear myself talk (or rather: see myself type):
The bottom line is that not all of us are irrational (at least partially, unless ur an android ;p), and just because the OP has no credibility does not imply in any way that we shouldn't be discussing the idea until it's presented more appropriately. Ideas can (and usually should) be treated as entities of their own without regard of where they came from or how they were presented.

And just for fun, even if we did suppose the topic of interest was irrational behavior (and not overextended), then there are much worse examples out there than simple rumor hype.

[ktkenshinx]

It is impossible for us to tell whether Eldrazi Spy lied or told the truth in his MTGS post. But one thing was clear in the wake of this rumor: the Magic community responded. Everyone had some sort of opinion about the rumored format, whether positive or negative. The response was overwhelming, as even Bill Stark noted in his YouTube posting. While "overwhelming response" does not at all translate to "overwhelming support", a lot of potential supporters of this New Format have shown themselves. Moreover, at the risk of making a generalization, I would say that most respondents reacted favorably to the idea.

Whether a budding Legacy player lacking duals, a dissatisfied Extended player, a Standard player attempting to find a new, challenging, powerful format, a casual player from some time over the last decade, etc., players across the internet gathered together in some agreement about the format. Those detractors of this format are in a predictable minority. They are mostly current Legacy players with a lot of economic commitment to this format. I have yet to see a Standard or Extended player who BOTH complained about the new format AND wanted to switch to Legacy, not "Legacy Lite." Apathetic Standard and Extended players don't exactly count, because they wouldn't be joining either Legacy or Legacy lite.

I agree with Bill Stark: rumors are rumors, and they should be treated as nothing more. But that said, we should not think of this purely as a rumor of something that is going to happen. We should also think of it as a suggestion about what could, and maybe should, happen. This is a more productive approach, and one that Wizards will most pay attention to.

-ktkenshinx-

[Trans Am]

players across the internet gathered together in some agreement about the format. Those detractors of this format are in a predictable minority. I have yet to see a Standard or Extended player who BOTH complained about the new format AND wanted to wanted to switch to Legacy, not "Legacy Lite."

Does everything you say have to be in grandiose definites ? Nobody gathered from across the globe, a handful of random people posted in a couple threads on various internet forums. Most of the standard players I've met dont even know anything about the other formats, other than their names. A lot even think there is just a type 1 and type 2 still. Im sure you could get this much discussion if someone randomly posted a rumor that they were finally introducing purple as a color too. So why dont you tone down the obnoxious embellishments a little.

[General_Norris]

The thing is, Wizards has the choice between saving Legacy or saving the value of the cards in the Reprint Policy.

So they choose to kill Legacy and destroy the value of the cards.

Makes no sense to me.

[dahcmai]

Let's really not go into card value again. This is getting really old. It's about as bad as talking about the reprint policy.


I think I need to post that beating a dead horse picture again.

[Amon Amarth]

Does everything you say have to be in grandiose definites ? Nobody gathered from across the globe, a handful of random people posted in a couple threads on various internet forums. Most of the standard players I've met dont even know anything about the other formats, other than their names. A lot even think there is just a type 1 and type 2 still. Im sure you could get this much discussion if someone randomly posted a rumor that they were finally introducing purple as a color too. So why dont you tone down the obnoxious embellishments a little.

To be fair, I was suprised at how much coverage and thought was going into this completely unfounded rumor. It definitely resonated with a large number of people. Shit, I remember when Extended used to be a worthwhile format anot just just Standard Plus.

[SpeedOfDark]

Im sure you could get this much discussion if someone randomly posted a rumor that they were finally introducing purple as a color too.

No.

Furthermore, everyone knows the 6th color will be dark green.

[quadibloc]

Furthermore, everyone knows the 6th color will be dark green.The sixth color will be orange! This was revealed in the pages of The Duelist itself!

http://www.airshipentertainment.com/growfcomic.php?date=20080713

Of course, this also predicted that Rukh Egg would receive an erratum to make it work like Blacker Lotus, and that Serra Angel would never be reprinted, and that Anson Maddock's grandson would end up doing the art on every new Magic card. Thus, there are some who doubt its prophetic accuracy.

[Troll_ov_Grimness]

[SNIP] For bitching about moderation, use PMs. For bitching about other issues, use the Angry Dome (http://25.media.tumblr.com/hajwX5CNfqsk10iyCVUV8z8Bo1_250.gif). ~Nihil Credo

This isn't even true.

Even if there was a new format it would begin at Ice Age.
Which is where Legacy probably should have started from anyway

[quadibloc]

The thing is, Wizards has the choice between saving Legacy or saving the value of the cards in the Reprint Policy.

So they choose to kill Legacy and destroy the value of the cards.

Makes no sense to me.Well, this is why the idea of a new format to fill the role of Legacy in the larger Magic scene seems to make sense.

Not reprinting protects the value of the cards.

Not changing Legacy itself to ban cards protects the value of the cards.

Having the new format protects the value of other cards, cards not in the Reprint Policy, current cards rotating out of Extended.

The idea is not to push Legacy off a cliff, but leave it be, still supporting it, so that it just quietly fades away like Vintage, so that any effect a decline in the popularity of Legacy due to some cards being too expensive will have on lowering the value of those cards... will be gentle, and not Wizards' fault.


Even if there was a new format it would begin at Ice Age.
Which is where Legacy probably should have started from anywayBeginning at Ice Age is an interesting idea. It doesn't bypass all the reserved cards, or even all the expensive cards (such as Mana Drain).

But I'm not against that idea, since I felt that a format starting from the beginning, but with expensive cards banned, would be a good idea; it would be a good thing if the less expensive cards on the Reserved List had their chance to rise in value a little too.

[kkoie]

What exactly is the significance of begining at Ice Age?


It would not solve any of the problems that begning at Masques would not solve. Neither would address the price issue (a new format would drive prices up not down). Nor would they prevent combo decks from being degenerate kings, unless they instigate numerous bannings.

[Amon Amarth]

I really think the idea of this format would be a great. It would be an awesome replacement for Extended.

[quadibloc]

Neither would address the price issue (a new format would drive prices up not down).This is a point that I have to admit is somewhat tricky and confusing.

You are absolutely right that the new format wouldn't make any cards cheaper. And the issue arose from the fact that cards for playing Legacy, such as the original dual lands, have been going up in price.

Reprinting the original duals would make them go down in price. This would get some of the people who own them upset with Wizards. And it is felt, with good reason, that this is unlikely to happen.

A new format in which those cards were not legal, however, would allow people to play in that format without those cards. (One advantage, incidentally, to starting with Ice Age is that Force of Will, from Alliances, would be legal, as some people have felt that the new format would be unbalanced, having too many combo plays, without that card being present.)

If the new format is sort of "like" Legacy, then, it addresses the price issue by letting people have a play experience like that of Legacy, but not involving a requirement for the most expensive cards in Legacy.

And, furthermore, the fact that it will drive up the prices of some cards is actually a good thing, and part of what is desired. In my opinion, a major component of the outcry when Chronicles came out was the perceived injustice in that the Elder Dragon Legends, and other high-priced cards that many players owned were now sent down in price because of the reprints... but the even more expensive cards that fewer players owned, the Power Nine and the original duals, hadn't been, and weren't likely to be, reprinted ever.

So the new format balances things out. Not reprinting protects the original duals. But people who don't have the original duals - but who do have cards like Gilded Lotus and Chrome Mox... Mirrodin is rotating out this fall, and it was a very popular set... would not be forgotten either. And, of course, Umezawa's Jitte and Tarmogoyf will rotate out eventually too.

[rleader]

I really think the idea of this format would be a great. It would be an awesome replacement for Extended.

I find this to be the strangest argument and it's bizarre how it's evidently turning on 95% of Evan Erwin's audience. Maybe the PTQ-chasing scene will have more fun in the new format (although it'll probably be more stagnant than extended by a large factor, especially after a few years), or maybe they won't, but I can't see kids who can barely afford to play Jund in standard (let alone $60 mythics) flocking to a format that they still won't be able to play in weekly tournaments.

Star City might be able to monetize the format with enough 5Ks devoted to it, but then they could do the same thing with pauper or prismatic or whatever, too; indeed, it's probably in their best interest to rotate through all of this stuff in order to maximize their sales on the widest variety of cards. $10 armadillo cloaks in 2014 right before the peasant 5K...

Not that it would be a bad thing, necessarily, as long as people are playing. I think we're all on the side of people playing magic. But to automatically assume that "people think extended sucks" and "superextended will be the funnest and automatically draw huge crowds" doesn't logically follow.

Especially when the supposedly real argument is that people "really want to play legacy but they can't afford it so this be the next best thing..."

[Amon Amarth]

This new format can not replace Legacy because of the lack of many cornerstone cards that aren't available in MM onwards. It would be a hell of a lot better than the Extended format currently because it only feels like Standard +.

The monetary argument makes little sense, because, well OverExtended isn't going to be like Legacy at all. Magic is really expensive these days and there isn't any real way to get around that, regardless of what format you pay.

[rleader]

format currently because it only feels like Standard +.

How does that work? That's another thing I keep seeing repeated but I find it ironic that a lot of people actually were hoping we'd have an ext season WITHOUT fetchlands just to see how it feels when turbo mode is turned off.

The power level between std and ext is currently pretty high, imo: if there's a reason it feels like standard, I'm guessing that has to do with power creep in general and newer innovations like planeswalkers. I'm guessing if you showed the average kid who plays firststrike.dec (now with basilisk collar!) Depths/Thopter, s/he'd be pretty impressed with a dark depths token.

I mean, a couple of years back, people could play stuff like Enduring Ideal; Hypergenesis seems pretty insane by comparison (well, with top gone, anyway), and it's still not putting up numbers in the meta. I do wonder what current judges at 5Ks think about top, whether it should be gone from legacy or if players are just getting faster with practice, etc

[Nelis]

but I can't see kids who can barely afford to play Jund in standard (let alone $60 mythics) flocking to a format that they still won't be able to play in weekly tournaments.

But there's a big difference. They have all the time in the world to get their deck together. They don't have to worry that the deck they've put together will be obsolete* in a couple of months time. And in time when they get older they get more money so they can get more expensive cards. *As is tournament illegal, not as in not right for the metagame anymore.

And there's also a lot of casual players who have collected a lot of cards over the years and can bring their old casual cards to play in tournaments.

[dontbiteitholmes]

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/misc/19304_You_Lika_The_Juice_Mythics_the_Cost_of_Playing.html
I think this article is relevant to this conversation. The idea that kids complaining Legacy is too expensive are going to shell out for a new format is pretty laughable. The format is still going to be expensive and without Force of Will (IE the glue that holds the format together) decks are going to change more often then Legacy. Goblins has changed all of maybe 4 cards in the past 5 years and maybe 10 if you add a black splash. UGw aggro has changed +4 Tarmogoyf +4 Counterbalance +4 Top +4 Ponder +4 Noble Heirarch +4 Fetchlands and all of those cards (save Top) were added as the set came out and were popular in every format, so even if you play serious T2 or Ext you were still going to buy them most likely. I mean, I hear it Legacy is expensive to get started in, but it's also fun as crap and an eternal format. For most decks having cards that haven't been printed in over 15 years the format is still fairly cheap considering some cards that have come out in the past 3 years are considered staples of T2/Ext and cost $50-$70 a piece. What would you rather be holding in 5 years, a Tropical Island or a Jace the Mindsculptor? Let's face facts. A lot of people "in favor" of a new format are never going to actually play it.
1: Tournaments for it will be rare, likely rarer then block constructed.
2: The cards will still be expensive.
3: Shocklands and no Force of Will but a near Legacy sized card pool sounds like an unhealthy unfun format. (IE Aggro gets better, Control gets much worse, Combo doesn't have to consider FOW)
4: The format would cut into Legacy's and Extended's player base, hurting both formats and possibly destroying one.

[ktkenshinx]

Beginning at Ice Age is an interesting idea. It doesn't bypass all the reserved cards, or even all the expensive cards (such as Mana Drain).

But I'm not against that idea, since I felt that a format starting from the beginning, but with expensive cards banned, would be a good idea; it would be a good thing if the less expensive cards on the Reserved List had their chance to rise in value a little too.
There are four reasons that Wizards should not make Ice Age the cut off.

1. Arbitrariness
What distinguishes Ice Age from Fallen Empires or The Dark? Except for card power, nothing much (and even in that case, it's pretty debatable). The only reason that Wizards would do this is to keep Force of Will around as a check for their new format. There are, however, more elegant solutions. FoW basically does two things for Legacy: give Control a chance, and keep fast Aggro and Combo in check, especially fast Combo. FoW is the variation of Counterspell and Daze is the variation of Force Spike. Why not make a Mana Leak variant? 2U, alternate casting cost of 1 blue card and 1 life: counter target spell unless its controller pays 3. This would slow down combo by a few turns, and give control a nice answer to early game threats. It wouldn't totally wreck Standard or Extended, and it is not too powerful to warp Legacy and Vintage.

Regardless of the FoW issue, cutting the format off before the Reserve List departure is highly arbitrary. Wizards has to make up some bizarre power-level/price/popularity calculus to figure out where they should start the format (Urzas? Tempest? Ice Age? Dark? etc.) Cutting it off at Mercadian Masques is a clear departure from the Reserve List, is easily explained, and is a perfectly transparent decision.

2. Differentiating the Format
Enchantress. Eureka. Lands. What do these decks have in common? They are the only three decks that are uniquely affected by an Ice Age cutoff in the new format. Enchantress loses Moat. Eureka/Show and Tell loses Eureka. Lands loses Tabernacle. Naturally, all decks lose their duals. But is this really a different format that is created? ANT (LED, Mystical Tutor, Petal), Reanimator (Reanimate, Exhume), Stax (Smokestack, Ancient Tomb, City of Traitors), Goblins (Lackey, Wasteland), Lands (Manabond, Exploration, Tabernacle), Imperial Painter (Grindstone, Imperial Recruiter), Enchantress (Argothian Enchantress, Elephant Grass, Replenish), NO Countertop/Bant (Natural Order, Swords to Plowshares), etc. All those cards in parentheses are those cards that the respective decks lose. In many cases, these are absolutely lethal losses that these archetypes cannot recover from. This shakes up the format and opens up tournaments to allow new deck types. Only a MM cutoff creates this necessary format disruption to really set aside "OverExtended"/"Legacy Lite" as a unique new format.

3. Power Level
Show and Tell, Reanimate, Sneak Attack, Gaea's Cradle, Serra's Sanctum, Force of Will, Wasteland, Goblin Lackey, Manabond, City of Traitors, Dream Halls, etc. These are some pretty darn powerful cards, and a new format might not be able to accommodate them. Besides, Wizards will want a fresh start and a clean slate for its new format. If Urza/Tempest block cards clogged up player's minds and decks, this would probably not happen.

4. Symbolism
The Reserve List is bad, and Wizards probably agrees. Owing to certain unfortunate and secret problems, however, Wizards was forced to keep it around. Whatever its reasons, Wizards needs to do something to keep Eternal alive and Eternal players happy. By making a new format starting at MM, Wizards waves goodbye to the Reserve List and its endlessly frustrating issues and ushers in a new Eternal era. This could either be an integral part of a marketing campaign, or just a good word-on-the-street for people to consider. Either way, the Reserve List-less format would be attractive to lots of players.

Wizards can't kill the Reserve List, but it can kill all problems surrounding the damnable list. Making a new format from MM onward prevents these problems in the foreseeable future (except in the Vintage and Legacy communities).

-ktkenshinx-

[dahcmai]

I would only laugh at the people bitching about how expensive Misdirection, Dust Bowl, Vindicate, Pernicious Deed, and Rishadan Port got if this became reality. Face it, you know it would happen.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Sounds to me like people just want to play this format because it's cheaper than Legacy in theory not because it would be more fun. Sounds like a good reason to make a new eternal format, I'm sure it will kill [/sarcasm]. Don't kill support for a good format because you don't want to spend $600 on some dual lands when the best type 2 decks right now have $500 invested in 12 or so cards that will be $10 rares by next Summer. If you want to complain about something complain about the reserve list. Basically every employee of Wizard's asked about it in the last 5 years has said no one at Wizards likes the policy and they want to get rid of it but market research says it's more important to keep their word. Not everyone can drive a Cadillac and hobbies are expensive. Top of the line surfboards, guitars, cameras, art supplies, video game systems, computers, all these things quickly run into the $700 to $1000 range or way more over several years if they are serious hobbies. Vintage and Legacy are the top of the line of Magic. Luckily for you there is free online Magic and 10 proxy tournaments are only becoming more popular. This would be equated to not having a top of the line computer and playing your video games at reduced resolution, playing a guitar you bought used, riding your uncles old surfboard, or whatever simile you want. You can play Legacy without dual lands, you just can't play sanctioned Legacy. Don't go fucking it up for everyone else because you want to add legitimacy to some bullshit cop-out format which basically substitutes cheaper cards in the place of more fun. Sanctioned Legacy is for people who have Magic as a serious hobby and enjoy the format. If you don't want to shell out for duals support proxy tournaments or play online for free.

As far as hobbies go you are getting off cheap even if you fully invest. Try golf out and see how much those set of clubs appreciate after playing them for 3 years compared to dual lands. Basically I'm saying very few people can say with a straight face they would actually rather play this format than Legacy yet they are borderline demanding it. To these people I say, "Complain about the reserve list or shut the fuck up. Start a petition at every major tournament and online. Have people sign it and put their DCI # on it then send it to Wizards. I can assure you if WOTC was staring at the signatures of 50% of the people who went to PTQ's and GP's in a year next to DCI #'s it would go a long way to pushing them over the edge on this Reserved List thing. Seriously Google it and see if you can find one WOTC employee over the past 4 years saying anything more positive than negative about the Reserve List. I doubt it, they all hate it and say so just about every time they are asked even on the WOTC website. The only way to get rid of it though is to show overwhelming support exists in the MTG community. They've basically said that 100 times.

If you really can truly say you would rather play this format than Legacy if $300 - $600 for dual lands in most decks wasn't an issue we can continue this conversation. Oh yeah, Tarmogoyf doesn't count because he'd still be good in Neutered Legacy and Force of Will doesn't count because people are paying more than a playset of Wills goes for to get playsets of Jace or Baneslayer for their Type 2 decks. Dual lands are the only issue up for discussion as far as cost goes. If you take out dual lands most Legacy decks are less expensive than the top T2 decks by several hundred dollars. Also if you have a T2 deck worth more than $400 you are not allowed to talk about the price of Legacy. You already picked your pony. Eternal formats should be determined by fun not by cost. No other hobby/game/sport would ban a piece of equipment because it was too expensive, they would only ban something if it gave someone an unfair advantage to the point of making the game unfun. So the question is, do you think Dual Lands, Force, and company are too expensive or do you think they are so broken they make the game unfun. I personally wouldn't play Vintage even if I had the cards. I don't like the format, it's too fast and janky and broken and the games are too complicated and hinge too much on cards that are Restricted to 1x a deck. I think a lot of Legacy players would agree. Legacy still exists because a lot of people find it more fun than Vintage, if they didn't it would be a crappy format that nobody really played except a few niche groups (see 1.5 before banned list seperation). One more time for emphasis, the only reason to sanction a new format would be for fun, not because of costs concerns. If you sanction a new format how about BYOBlock, BYOT2, Eternal Dragon Highlander, a fresh new format, not a stale version of an existing format without the cards that make it so fun.

[Some Guy]

Why not make a Mana Leak variant? 2U, alternate casting cost of 1 blue card and 1 life: counter target spell unless its controller pays 3. This would slow down combo by a few turns, and give control a nice answer to early game threats. It wouldn't totally wreck Standard or Extended, and it is not too powerful to warp Legacy and Vintage.


Fucktastic!

That only is insanely broken. yeah , playing around a free mana leak equal waiting 4 turns play a 1cc spell , smart idea you have. standard only has cancel for 1UU , and you want to give them a free mana leak and say wouldnt totally wreck them. do you think anything you say through , or only type alot hoping nobody will notice is just all a bunch of nonsense.

[quadibloc]

I would only laugh at the people bitching about how expensive Misdirection, Dust Bowl, Vindicate, Pernicious Deed, and Rishadan Port got if this became reality. Face it, you know it would happen.Ah, but those could be reprinted. As I've noted, though, the idea is to keep the prices of things like Chrome Mox from dropping. There are more of those cards around, like there are more of Tarmogoyf around, than of the original duals - which are from the very early days. Revised, after all, didn't have as big a printing as Fourth Edition and what followed.

[ktkenshinx]

Fucktastic!

That only is insanely broken. yeah , playing around a free mana leak equal waiting 4 turns play a 1cc spell , smart idea you have. standard only has cancel for 1UU , and you want to give them a free mana leak and say wouldnt totally wreck them. do you think anything you say through , or only type alot hoping nobody will notice is just all a bunch of nonsense.
As usual, you have missed the point. The point is not that this specific card needs to be printed. The point is that some card like it could be. Whether it costed 3 or 4, or whether it countered unless 2 or 3 were paid is a discussion for another place that has zero bearing on this conversation. A FoW "reprint" is quite viable, and fits snugly in between Daze and the preexisting Force of Will (Miscalculation or Mana Leak).


If you take out dual lands most Legacy decks are less expensive than the top T2 decks by several hundred dollars.
But this is exactly one of the problems. The Duals are not going anywhere. For the past two years, they have been steadily increasing in price, a trend that is basically parallel to Legacy's popularity. If Legacy continues to grow in popularity, and the decks using duals continue to place at the top of tournaments (Zoo, CounterTop, ANT, TempoThresh, etc.) then this financial situation becomes unsustainable. This is not a problem with Force of Will, Wasteland, Tarmogoyf, and all their non-Reserve List friends. All of these cards can be reprinted in future core sets or, if this would cause balance problems in Standard and Extended, in future Master's/FTV/Planeswalker/etc packages. This could go a long way to making Legacy a bit more affordable to the average player.

But then there's those darn duals. You can't reprint them, but you need to run them. We can reasonably assume that Wizards wants a popular Legacy format, and as it increases in popularity, players will want more duals. This will absolutely increase their price to a far greater extent than Jace/BSA/Gideon/Elspeth will hit in T2. So what are the possible solutions that Wizards could offer?

1. Ban Dual Lands and make new ones
This one is a bit extreme and would necessitate a good Dual replacement. Ravnica shocklands would not suffice; Goblins, Zoo, and even Burn would all too eagerly take advantage of the repeated free Lightning Bolts over the course of a game. The problem is, these lands would have to be good enough to replace preexisting Duals and keep the format stable, but not too good so as to mess up Standard and Extended. That means they would need to be a) Fetchable and b) resource friendly. It also means that these Lands would need to fit with modern Land design philosophy as outlined by Rosewater here:
http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtgcom/daily/mr65

Yeah, some of that has been broken (Dark Depths anyone?), but for the most part, new Duals need to adhere to these ideas. That's bad news for Legacy. For one, the Lands can't be "strictly better than basic lands". Don't get all Wastelandy on me; in many situations, Duals are better than basics, and this is absolutely true from a design perspective (Rosewater's and co.). To do this, lands need to have drawbacks. Rosewater points to a list of possibilities. I will briefly address this list in regards to Legacy.
A. Tap for colorless: Doesn't fix mana, so not a real Dual.
B. Comes into play tapped: Too slow.
C. Requires life payment: Disadvantageous against Aggro. Ravnica shocklands were the paragon of B and C combined, and Wizards is not going to improve on that much. As discussed, those lands just won't work in Legacy.
D. Use every other turn: Even slower than coming into play tapped.
E. Limited number of uses: This is actually a realistic option. A "Gemstone Mine" cycle of duals would be feasible in Legacy, but only in Aggro and Combo. Control decks would find these lands quiet prohibitive. These would also be pretty darn useless in Standard (a much slower format).
F. Cost required when land is played: Depending on the cost, this could be alright. Something that forced you to Exile a certain number of cards from your graveyard, discard a certain kind of card from your hand, pay a certain strange cost, etc. would be useful in Legacy archetypes that could actually pay that cost. Unfortunately, this would exclude a lot of decks that could not pay the cost, tipping the format towards those that could still use Duals (remember, the original Duals have been banned in this alternate universe).
G. Don't provide mana by themselves: Slow, too vulnerable to Wasteland/Stifle, too clunky.
H. Requires another permanent in play: Again, too prohibitive of a design. Only certain decks could reliably use certain color lands.

At the point in time where Wizards is shaking up the Dual lands of the format, both with bannings and printings, the Legacy format is already getting a serious facelift. At that point, it might be better to just move on to a new format instead of trying to apply Magic the Gathering's largest band-aid.

2. Ban Duals and print no replacements
I imagine this idea would not fly in most Legacy circles. Lots of decks would change, perhaps even be crippled. Monocolor strategies would endure, as would fast Aggro strategies that could ignore the loss of life for running more costly duals (whether fetchable or otherwise). This is definitely not the best idea.

3. Make a new format and print new duals for it
In the first place, the new duals could not mess up Standard or Extended (unless they killed Extended as a result of the new format, in which case the problem would be with Standard). While this might be a design challenge, it would not be too difficult of one. The real problem is that this option might feel a bit too forced. I understand that Wizards wants to push their new format if they launch it, but I would imagine that this is better accomplished from a marketing and advertisement perspective with reprints than with new cards. Compare the two advertising campaigns for M11:
"M11: Here's new cards that we hope will fit into our new format"
"M11: Here's old goodies that we remember fit well into a similar format"
With some tinkering, the latter would probably be a better strategy.

4. Make a new format and reprint the Ravnica duals
In my opinion, this is the best option. Ravnica duals probably won't warp Standard too much, and reprinting them would keep the price down. It would also encourage new players to enter the format, because they can get the mana base so easily in a core set (and many of them already have the Fetchlands from some former Legacy/Extended/Standard experience in the last few years). Reprinting Ravnica duals would also go hand-in-hand with reprinting some possible "new format" staples that Wizards could hypothesize would be relevant. Let's not get bogged down in the details of these cards and their balance for Standard, but it would be pretty cool to see stuff like Fires of Yavimaya, Parallax Wave, Pernicious Deed, Opposition, Cunning/Living/Burning Wish, Umezawa's Jitte (too risky probably), and Chrome Mox. Again, let's not worry about the individual cards. The point is, it would be really cool to see those bad boys reprinted. As to the effect on price, the Standard demand coupled with the new format demand should keep prices relatively stable, if not a bit higher than before.

These are just some options that I have considered, all of which Wizards could feasibly do. Of course, they could also do absolutely nothing, but this seems quite unsustainable.

I also must agree with quadibloc's idea of price drops. Once Extended rotates, a lot of cards will simply become unusable. These are cards that are good in Extended but just not good enough for Legacy. These price drops will probably happen with consistency every year that Extended experiences a rotation. A New Format would likely fix that.

-ktkenshinx-

[dontbiteitholmes]

But this is exactly one of the problems. The Duals are not going anywhere. For the past two years, they have been steadily increasing in price, a trend that is basically parallel to Legacy's popularity. If Legacy continues to grow in popularity, and the decks using duals continue to place at the top of tournaments (Zoo, CounterTop, ANT, TempoThresh, etc.) then this financial situation becomes unsustainable. This is not a problem with Force of Will, Wasteland, Tarmogoyf, and all their non-Reserve List friends. All of these cards can be reprinted in future core sets or, if this would cause balance problems in Standard and Extended, in future Master's/FTV/Planeswalker/etc packages. This could go a long way to making Legacy a bit more affordable to the average player.
Legacy is not for the average player, that's what you fail to understand. Legacy is for someone who has magic as a serious hobby. You can buy a set of golf clubs at Wal-Mart or you can get a custom set from a top of the line manufacturer. Either way you are playing golf. You can take your Wal-Mart clubs and play golf all day, but when you go to play in a tournament and tell everyone that a $6000 set of clubs makes golf too expensive for the average player so they need to ban brand name clubs you are going to get laughed off the course. A playset each of Tundas, Tropical Islands, and Underground Seas would be under $700 if you shopped around and those are the 3 most expensive duals and I don't know any deck that would run 12 duals when the average for a 3 color deck is probably about 7 to 9. 7 to 9 dual lands would be about $500 or less. $500 for a hobby is not that much. Legacy is not for little kids who live with mom and dad, it's for people who have been playing Magic for a long time and treat it as a serious hobby. If you can't swing a one time investment of $500 for 2 playsets of duals, I've got some bad news for you. Sanctioned Legacy is not the format for you, in fact serious tournament Magic is probably not a hobby you can afford, and if you're over 18 you probably need a better job. If you still really want to play, play in a 10 proxy tournament, now you don't need dual lands and if you win the 1st prize is usually a tabernacle or power 9 and you can trade it in for a set of dual lands. If you can't even invest in the rest of the non-dual land cards you can play Legacy any time of day for absolutely free online with MWS and never spend a dime. So basically for a one time investment of up to $500 and an additional investment of approx. the price of a top T2 deck right now anyone can play Sanctioned Legacy. If you can't afford $500 you can play 10 proxy for prizes. If you can't afford any cards you can play free online. What's the problem here?



But then there's those darn duals. You can't reprint them, but you need to run them. We can reasonably assume that Wizards wants a popular Legacy format, and as it increases in popularity, players will want more duals. This will absolutely increase their price to a far greater extent than Jace/BSA/Gideon/Elspeth will hit in T2. So what are the possible solutions that Wizards could offer?

1. Ban Dual Lands and make new ones
This one is a bit extreme and would necessitate a good Dual replacement. Ravnica shocklands would not suffice; Goblins, Zoo, and even Burn would all too eagerly take advantage of the repeated free Lightning Bolts over the course of a game. The problem is, these lands would have to be good enough to replace preexisting Duals and keep the format stable, but not too good so as to mess up Standard and Extended. That means they would need to be a) Fetchable and b) resource friendly. It also means that these Lands would need to fit with modern Land design philosophy as outlined by Rosewater here:
http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazin...com/daily/mr65

Yeah, some of that has been broken (Dark Depths anyone?), but for the most part, new Duals need to adhere to these ideas. That's bad news for Legacy. For one, the Lands can't be "strictly better than basic lands". Don't get all Wastelandy on me; in many situations, Duals are better than basics, and this is absolutely true from a design perspective (Rosewater's and co.). To do this, lands need to have drawbacks. Rosewater points to a list of possibilities. I will briefly address this list in regards to Legacy.
A. Tap for colorless: Doesn't fix mana, so not a real Dual.
B. Comes into play tapped: Too slow.
C. Requires life payment: Disadvantageous against Aggro. Ravnica shocklands were the paragon of B and C combined, and Wizards is not going to improve on that much. As discussed, those lands just won't work in Legacy.
D. Use every other turn: Even slower than coming into play tapped.
E. Limited number of uses: This is actually a realistic option. A "Gemstone Mine" cycle of duals would be feasible in Legacy, but only in Aggro and Combo. Control decks would find these lands quiet prohibitive. These would also be pretty darn useless in Standard (a much slower format).
F. Cost required when land is played: Depending on the cost, this could be alright. Something that forced you to Exile a certain number of cards from your graveyard, discard a certain kind of card from your hand, pay a certain strange cost, etc. would be useful in Legacy archetypes that could actually pay that cost. Unfortunately, this would exclude a lot of decks that could not pay the cost, tipping the format towards those that could still use Duals (remember, the original Duals have been banned in this alternate universe).
G. Don't provide mana by themselves: Slow, too vulnerable to Wasteland/Stifle, too clunky.
H. Requires another permanent in play: Again, too prohibitive of a design. Only certain decks could reliably use certain color lands.

At the point in time where Wizards is shaking up the Dual lands of the format, both with bannings and printings, the Legacy format is already getting a serious facelift. At that point, it might be better to just move on to a new format instead of trying to apply Magic the Gathering's largest band-aid.

2. Ban Duals and print no replacements
I imagine this idea would not fly in most Legacy circles. Lots of decks would change, perhaps even be crippled. Monocolor strategies would endure, as would fast Aggro strategies that could ignore the loss of life for running more costly duals (whether fetchable or otherwise). This is definitely not the best idea.

3. Make a new format and print new duals for it
In the first place, the new duals could not mess up Standard or Extended (unless they killed Extended as a result of the new format, in which case the problem would be with Standard). While this might be a design challenge, it would not be too difficult of one. The real problem is that this option might feel a bit too forced. I understand that Wizards wants to push their new format if they launch it, but I would imagine that this is better accomplished from a marketing and advertisement perspective with reprints than with new cards. Compare the two advertising campaigns for M11:
"M11: Here's new cards that we hope will fit into our new format"
"M11: Here's old goodies that we remember fit well into a similar format"
With some tinkering, the latter would probably be a better strategy.

4. Make a new format and reprint the Ravnica duals
In my opinion, this is the best option. Ravnica duals probably won't warp Standard too much, and reprinting them would keep the price down. It would also encourage new players to enter the format, because they can get the mana base so easily in a core set (and many of them already have the Fetchlands from some former Legacy/Extended/Standard experience in the last few years). Reprinting Ravnica duals would also go hand-in-hand with reprinting some possible "new format" staples that Wizards could hypothesize would be relevant. Let's not get bogged down in the details of these cards and their balance for Standard, but it would be pretty cool to see stuff like Fires of Yavimaya, Parallax Wave, Pernicious Deed, Opposition, Cunning/Living/Burning Wish, Umezawa's Jitte (too risky probably), and Chrome Mox. Again, let's not worry about the individual cards. The point is, it would be really cool to see those bad boys reprinted. As to the effect on price, the Standard demand coupled with the new format demand should keep prices relatively stable, if not a bit higher than before.

These are just some options that I have considered, all of which Wizards could feasibly do. Of course, they could also do absolutely nothing, but this seems quite unsustainable.

I also must agree with quadibloc's idea of price drops. Once Extended rotates, a lot of cards will simply become unusable. These are cards that are good in Extended but just not good enough for Legacy. These price drops will probably happen with consistency every year that Extended experiences a rotation. A New Format would likely fix that.

-ktkenshinx-
Umm, wow where do I start? Did you even read my post? Seriously, read my post. No one at Wizards likes the reprint policy and the only reason they keep it is because they get feedback that says it's more important for them to keep their word then to change the policy. It's not a law, they could break it anytime they come to the decision it's the right thing to do. Google it, really, find one quote where someone at WOTC has said they like the reprint policy and it was a good idea in the past 5 years, I'll wait. Now try to Google and find where someone currently employed at WOTC has said they dislike it, I could probably pull up 10 quotes in 5 mins. if I cared to. The only thing keeping the reprint policy up is the lack of interest from the average MTG player to change it.

This is the part where I was going to run through your 1-4 and tell you why they are so stupid at this point in time but why bother. Right now dual lands are affordable to the people who they should be affordable to, basically anyone with a non-minimum wage full time job. When that changes in the future something will need to be done. That won't happen until Legacy becomes more popular. When Legacy becomes more popular and the prices of duals go up the tide will start to turn against the reprint policy as more and more people oppose it. Finally it will hit a tipping point and we will see a change in the policy. Talking about a new format now is stupid though. Dual lands aren't expensive enough to justify creating a new format and that seems to be the only real reason anyone can give. There are only 2 cards I can think of in Legacy worth more than Jace and they are Moat and Tabernacle. So basically check out these 4 pictures...
http://img96.imageshack.us/i/jaceprice.png/
http://img293.imageshack.us/i/dualprice.png/
http://img100.imageshack.us/i/baneprice.png/
http://img257.imageshack.us/i/forceprice.png/

Now, the only arguments I'm open to listening to are that
1: Extended plus is a format you would rather play then Legacy if dual lands weren't an issue. (Which I doubt is true)
2: $500 over the price of the top T2 deck is unreasonable for one of the most expensive decks in a format that uses every Magic card ever printed -61 cards and this alone justifies making a new format even though anyone can play unsanctioned Legacy 24 hours a day for free or with proxies of the most expensive cards at an unsanctioned tournament.

If you say #1, you sir are a liar. Everyone knows a new format couldn't hold a candle to Legacy.
If you say #2 either you haven't entered the workforce yet or you don't have enough disposable income to make a one time investment of $300-$1000 for a deck (which you can then trade off if you decide to make a different deck). Either way you might want to give up on serious tournament Magic since the average T2 deck costs $200-$500 and changes every other month. If you make a new format it's still going to be expensive, you are just going to be playing with shittier cards. It's not going to be much cheaper than Legacy is now since 7 years of extended puts us back to 2003 and extended plus puts us back to 1999. So the cards played in Ext+ are going to overlap heavily into extended for a while.

[ktkenshinx]

Umm, wow where do I start? Did you even read my post? Seriously, read my post. No one at Wizards likes the reprint policy and the only reason they keep it is because they get feedback that says it's more important for them to keep their word then to change the policy. It's not a law, they could break it anytime they come to the decision it's the right thing to do. Google it, really, find one quote where someone at WOTC has said they like the reprint policy and it was a good idea in the past 5 years, I'll wait. Now try to Google and find where someone currently employed at WOTC has said they dislike it, I could probably pull up 10 quotes in 5 mins. if I cared to. The only thing keeping the reprint policy up is the lack of interest from the average MTG player to change it.
I find it ironic that you accuse me of not reading your post when you are saying all of this. Not once did I say, or even imply, that Wizards likes their reprint policy. Moreover, I did not say it was legally binding; indeed I have argued in the past on this forum that it is NOT legally binding and they should have abolished it. They could still do this given its current, non-legal phrasing. But they probably won't. The policy is not going anywhere for a while, and their revisiting the issue a month ago (and ultimately deciding to keep it) is a firm seal on the matter. Wizards would absolutely love to axe the stupid policy and end this whole conversation but they can't. So we are working from there. As to your last quote, the bolded one, I will come back to that later.


This is the part where I was going to run through your 1-4 and tell you why they are so stupid at this point in time but why bother. Right now dual lands are affordable to the people who they should be affordable to, basically anyone with a non-minimum wage full time job. When that changes in the future something will need to be done. That won't happen until Legacy becomes more popular. When Legacy becomes more popular and the prices of duals go up the tide will start to turn against the reprint policy as more and more people oppose it. Finally it will hit a tipping point and we will see a change in the policy. Talking about a new format now is stupid though. Dual lands aren't expensive enough to justify creating a new format and that seems to be the only real reason anyone can give. There are only 2 cards I can think of in Legacy worth more than Jace and they are Moat and Tabernacle.
Had you tried to read my post, you will see that I firmly oppose three of the four points that I presented. I was listing possible responses Wizards could have if the Dual situation worsens, showing how three of them do nothing to solve the problem. In that sense, we agree that options 1, 2, and 3 are all stupid.

You acknowledge that the Dual land pricing situation will change in the future ("when that changes in the future...") I wonder how quickly you think that future will arrive. Given the current trend in Legacy popularity (evidenced in higher and higher tournament attendance) and in staple prices (Duals and such), the Dual Land price problems looks to be coming soon.

I think the duals are a problem now, or will be very soon. Even if you disagree, however, you must concede that EVENTUALLY something will have to be done. That said, you claim that Wizards will revisit the Reserve List and finally abolish it. Why do you think that? The outrage about the Reserve List reached a high point between January and March 2010. Discussion ranged from every site to every forum, including even Wizards courtesy of Mark Rosewater himself. Despite all of this public outcry, Wizards still preserved the policy. What will make them change their minds in the future? Reserve List prices will be even higher, giving collectors even more incentive to fight tooth and nail to keep their Reserve List. The marketing incentives will be higher than they are currently, for both Wizards and its buyers.

Now, this brings me to a disturbing point in your logic. While you might say that "the average MTG player" lacks interest to change the policy, why exactly do you think that the AVERAGE player will gain this interest? You flatly contradict yourself; you claim that Legacy is not a format for the AVERAGE player...

Legacy is not for the average player, that's what you fail to understand. Legacy is for someone who has magic as a serious hobby.
and then you say that the Reserve List will only be undone when the AVERAGE player advocate for its destruction...

The only thing keeping the reprint policy up is the lack of interest from the average MTG player to change it.
Why are average players going to take interest in a list that matters mostly, if not only, to non-average players? This just doesn't make any sense. If the Reserve List endures so long as average players don't care about it, and Legacy (a format not for average players) is the only format that cares about the Reserve List, that leaves us pretty damn screwed.

Unlike you, I don't think Eternal formats should just be for the "serious hobby" players. Legacy might be for serious hobbyists, and I have never disagreed with that. But I believe that all players should be able to enjoy an eternal format and not have to choose between Vintage and Legacy. A New Format would give those players the option and, given enough support, be able to overtake both Vintage and Legacy as the Eternal Format of choice. Either way, however, the Legacy/Reserve List contradiction that you so inadvertently exposed is not going anywhere, and leaves this format in trouble. With appropriate reprints, Wizards could make it relatively affordable and avoid the gradual climbing prices of Legacy, non-reprintable Duals and staples.


Now, the only arguments I'm open to listening to are that
1: Extended plus is a format you would rather play then Legacy if dual lands weren't an issue. (Which I doubt is true)
...

If you say #1, you sir are a liar. Everyone knows a new format couldn't hold a candle to Legacy.
That's quite a generalization. Given that I have read many people express an opposite opinion (on this site and others), I am inclined to say you are wrong.


2: $500 over the price of the top T2 deck is unreasonable for one of the most expensive decks in a format that uses every Magic card ever printed -61 cards and this alone justifies making a new format even though anyone can play unsanctioned Legacy 24 hours a day for free or with proxies of the most expensive cards at an unsanctioned tournament.
...
If you say #2 either you haven't entered the workforce yet or you don't have enough disposable income to make a one time investment of $300-$1000 for a deck (which you can then trade off if you decide to make a different deck). Either way you might want to give up on serious tournament Magic since the average T2 deck costs $200-$500 and changes every other month. If you make a new format it's still going to be expensive, you are just going to be playing with shittier cards. It's not going to be much cheaper than Legacy is now since 7 years of extended puts us back to 2003 and extended plus puts us back to 1999. So the cards played in Ext+ are going to overlap heavily into extended for a while.
Paying that much for a deck is not a problem for me or for most players. T2 prices will be high for a while, what with this new Mythic Rarity disaster. Legacy has a different problem. If price trends continue in their current direction, then the price of Legacy decks is just going to continue to rise and rise. This is the problem with the Reserve List and the potential problem with the format.

-ktkenshinx-

[rleader]

Once Extended rotates, a lot of cards will simply become unusable. These are cards that are good in Extended but just not good enough for Legacy.

How many cards per set are going to be good enough for superextended but not for legacy? 0.84? That's not saving a lot of effin' value in my book. So no, what you said is not a reasonable statement.

For the sake of argument, let's look at some recent extended decks for cards that are played there but not in legacy:

Thopter Depths: Slaughter Pact/River of Tears/Sunken Ruins
Blood Moon Zoo: Boom/Bust
Thopter Sword: Mindspring (but this is also a standard card)
Hypergenesis: Akroma's Memorial (and oh yeah, casual and EDH people value cards like this too!), Angel of Despair
Scapeshift: uh, Scapeshift, Valakut, Boseiju (but maybe it should be played more in legacy?)
B/W Pox: Sword Of Fire And Ice, Sword Of Light And Shadow (although they'll rotate out of ext before Jitte and they're only in as jitte's 3+4), Kitchen Finks, Baneslayer Angel
Dredge: Hedron Crab, Ideas Unbound
Elfball: cloudstone curio, primal command
Ninjas: Abyssal Persecutor, Ninja of the Deep Hours

1. The good cards in the good decks of extended are legacy playable for the most part (and are most of the strongest legacy cards!)
2. If every EXT card in every EXT deck rotated tomorrow morning, not a lot of value would be lost, outside of

a. substandard mana fixing lands
b. cards that are already also rans (sword of light and shadow in aformat that allows jitte)
c. creature fat that is constantly being ecclipsed (angel of despair<woodfall primus (arguably) <terrastodon

[quadibloc]

How many cards per set are going to be good enough for superextended but not for legacy?Possibly quite a few.

After all, Mercadian Masques was the block following Urza block. Yes, Legacy has an extensive banned list, but the banned list is still only the minimum necessary to have a balanced format. A lot of cards in Urza block and other early sets that aren't banned in Legacy have a power level that simply is not seen at present.

After Urza block, Wizards brought in tournament players to advise it on card design, and in Masques block they played it fairly safe. So there is a big jump in power level; one can think of this as the beginning of the modern era of Magic. Present-day cards basically will fit right in rather than tending, as a general rule, to be hopelessly outclassed (except for creatures).

[Gallo]

Hi, this is the first time i visit this forum and the first time i post here (or course). First of all, english is not my first language so excuse me :).

Some of you says that in Legacy are a very rich variety of competitive decks, but the fact is you can't play Legacy if you don't have the most powerful lands or spells of the format. It's not about decks, it's about cards. ALL blue decks play with force of will / brainstorm, all play the duals, all play erials... this cards are too expensive for most players and completly destroy the variety of playable cards because this spells are the best and fastest spells in all the card pool of legacy.

Some of you are ok with this new format but only if WotC reprints force of will and erial or saying the cut off must be in Ice Age instead of mmaskes... you don't know how to play without this cards? If WotC reprints this cards or cut the format in ice age, the problem of prices is solved, but the problem of poor vaeriety of playable cards persist.

Others says that without the mentioned spells this new format becomes totally a combo decks format. Seriusly, think about what decks back and tell me if combo is the unique option.
- Psycheatog
- Madness
- Astral Slide
- Affinity
- The Rock (the original one with baloth and spirit monguer).
- All UWx control versions.
- Rebels (mono W or UW).
- And all decks that have a good time in his tipe 2 powered with old extended cards :), the list of really playable and competitive decks become infinite.

I think all this decks can see game in this format and i love this idea, it have more variety than Legacy because the broken cards that can't be replaced like FoW or Erial or Duals aren't present here :), so a really big number of possible strategies have an opportunity. I belive we are going to see 8 diferent decks in every top 8 of this format tournaments if this format becomes true.

If this format have something negative is that don't have a defined metagame, your Sideboards must be the most generic as possible :).

[yankeedave]

The combo problem is that how do you stop someone winning with Belcher on the first turn on the play without Force of Will? With a little tuning, I am sure that someone could make a Tendrils deck that plays protection and totally destroys you in the first couple of turns also. Without Force, and if WotC don't ban a lot of combo cards, this format will about who can go off first.

[Nekrataal]

It is not that your beloved decks of old time suddely have a revival party because the "powerful" legacy cards have left the format. Like current Extended the new format will lean towards Combodecks (Scapeshift, Thopter Depth) and be enriched by ported over Combodecks like Storm or Ichorid. These decks will define speed in the new format and will be the most important cornerstone of the new format. The number of possible strategies is reduced since unique cards that enable whole deck archetypes are gone forever like Survival, Argothian, Dreadstill, D&T (Karakas), Dream Halls, Solidarity, Quinn, Reanimator (Reanimation Spells), Black Tempo (Sinkhole, Hymn). However a few new strategies will emerge that are Tier 4 in Legacy only and enrich the new format but all in all the meta habitat will be smaller because size of carpool unfortunately correlates with meta variability. The negative aspect you raise is a result of the variability that obviously is greater in current Legacy in contrast to your statement. You are also mistaken that such a new format will not have key staples. It will. Suddenly other cards will be played in every blue deck and prices will increase. Sure it will be below the level of Legacy but once the new format is out and some decks have been established all played cards will go up in price.

[menace13]

AHEM! If the format can not play Duals then it is not Eternal. TY good day.

[AlterEgo]

The combo problem is that how do you stop someone winning with Belcher on the first turn on the play without Force of Will? With a little tuning, I am sure that someone could make a Tendrils deck that plays protection and totally destroys you in the first couple of turns also. Without Force, and if WotC don't ban a lot of combo cards, this format will about who can go off first.

You might start the game with a certain Leyline on the battlefield - it's about as likely as having a Force of Will in your opener, in fact it's even MORE likely as for Force you also need another blue card.

[MMogg]

Gallo, welcome to The Source!

I don't get your reasoning though. It seems you are looking for something that doesn't exist: a cheap format. Manabases will never be "cheap" and what would you rather, buy into a mana base that is going to get punted (like the Ravinca duals just got punted in Extended) or would you rather have duals for life? The price of original duals is both a blessing and a curse. A curse because obviously the buy-in level is quite high (substantially lower on MTGO by the way), but with fetches, you can essentially get more bang for your buck and needn't necessarily need 4 of any 1 dual to function; a blessing because they will never rotate, be punted or be power crept out of existence: that, in essence, is the epitome of eternal.

That said, there are viable options without duals. For all the people saying how horrible Merfolk is, it's still putting up the numbers that refute their blathering face anuses. So long as there is Legacy there are people who have a hard on for blue and so long as they are around, Merfolk will prey on them.

I just think you need to be realistic with yourself and see if there even exists a cheap format. Every format has expensive decks and cheap decks, but with Legacy, the decks don't wholesale rotate or get punted (note, "wholesale", so anyone mentioning Mystical gets a dunce cap :tongue:). Sure, they get tweaked, such as how Standstill is waning in popularity in Merfolk, but the core of the deck is still essentially untouched.

[yankeedave]

You might start the game with a certain Leyline on the battlefield - it's about as likely as having a Force of Will in your opener, in fact it's even MORE likely as for Force you also need another blue card.

Its a fair point, but who has that game 1? And your sideboard hate should take that Leyline into account!

[dahcmai]

So did some new development come out about this or is it just still speculation?

[DragoFireheart]

So did some new development come out about this or is it just still speculation?

Nothing new so far.

[Gallo]

I don't want a cheap format, but as a side effect this format becomes the most cheapest :).

What i want is a format where if i can't get a card because it is expensive, i can replace it with an other cheap option, an this don't broke the deck (may be more slower, or not so good but can play...). A format where the metagame are not defined by a few cards like FoW. A format where i can see people playing old extended decks (when magic was fun). I want a format that isn't deffined by veri old cards, or ultra expensive Mithyc cards... like Legacy or Standard or the actual Extended due to the rotation... show me a competitive deck with blue and without Jace mind sculptor in T2 pls :) (now someone post a list here of a blue deck without jace II, no thnks..).

[Gheizen64]

I don't want a cheap format, but as a side effect this format becomes the most cheapest :).

What i want is a format where if i can't get a card because it is expensive, i can replace it with an other cheap option, an this don't broke the deck (may be more slower, or not so good but can play...). A format where the metagame are not defined by a few cards like FoW. A format where i can see people playing old extended decks (when magic was fun). I want a format that isn't deffined by veri old cards, or ultra expensive Mithyc cards... like Legacy or Standard or the actual Extended due to the rotation... show me a competitive deck with blue and without Jace mind sculptor in T2 pls :) (now someone post a list here of a blue deck without jace II, no thnks..).

Go play Pauper then. There's no way staples aren't going to be expensives no matter the format. Eternal in a sense is better because it's less influenced by the mithic madness, but still.

[Cthuloo]

What i want is a format where if i can't get a card because it is expensive, i can replace it with an other cheap option, an this don't broke the deck (may be more slower, or not so good but can play...).

This is often possible also with legacy. The usual example is dual -> ravnica duals, or tarmo -> werebear. But if you want to have the best chances to win, you will need the best cards in the format, whatever the format is.

[skulls]

Little late to the party here, but whatever. I could actually see this happening, though I don't think it would be a fun environment. I guess that depends how you feel about Rishadan Port though.

[dahcmai]

What's funny is it would actually become one of the most expensive formats out there if it's true. Let's take for instance what would happen if this was real. Everyone's argument of "they can reprint anything" doesn't really apply since they can reprint anything, but do they? It's irrelevant anyway since there will always be an expensive card for someone to whine about.

Ok, so let's look at this format from a purely money standpoint. Rishadan Port is obviously one of the top cards all of a sudden as it's one of the few mana denial cards left. Horrendously expensive all of a sudden. Misdirection, one of the few free counters aside from Daze. You know it will go up. Dust Bowl and Ghost quarter? Which one is better, umm no real contest honestly.

Vindicate, Pernicious Deed, Dark Confidant, Meddling Mage, Undermine, Absorb, Aether Vial, Dark Depths, are all going to gain a large amount of value. I can see Undermine getting back to it's horrendously expensive roots.

Oh this doesn't even go into the ones that are already high priced. What do you think would happen to Tarmogoyf? That one would be insane. Jace 2.0? Think he's expensive now? Oh just imagine fighting over the newer mythics with the standard crowd since it will be easier to have a new card produced that works in this format. Vengevine seems viable.

It will be insanely expensive to get into and I don't think people realize how bad it can be. Extended season alone drove prices and I don't even know anyone who plays that format other than a few pros who are forced to. Tarmogoyf was drove up just recently if you didn't notice by the extended season alone to 75 and higher in some places, then it dropped back to 50 after it was over.

What's funny is some older cards will shoot through the roof from the dollar bin to chase rare within hours of the announcement this format exists. Lin Sivvi was banned from standard along with Rishadan port. Do you really think that they would stay at the current price if forced into a new eternal format? Lin sivvi would have an interesting price adjustment overnight. Rishadan Port, I think would go out of most people's price range just as quick.

Madness cards are all in this format along with dredge stuff, those cards would shoot up making even those cheapy decks go out of reach for most kids.

Magic online should tell you what having Invasion as an early set will do to prices. Then think about how big Mercadian Masques actually is. It was really horrible packing anything from that set.

Now here's the funny part. Combo would be back in force. Don't deny it. I'm sure it would take me a matter of hours to have something that works like a charm since there's no force to fight it. 1st or 2nd turn kills wouldn't be that hard. It's not like Tendrils of Agony is from beta or something. So I would expect Force of Will to make a return via reprint. It's not broken in standard. I played standard back when it was legal. It's not that broken or something like people think when surrounded by non-legacy worthy things. In fact, it was a crap card for most of it's time in standard until Tempest came out and gave it some merit. Reprinting Force is not far fetched at all. Now, do you really think Wizards would make that card an uncommon this time around? Nah. That's a moneymaker at Mythic if I ever saw it. At the least, it would be a rare to not have it clog up limited which wasn't thought much about back when they made sets back then. So you'd be back to going after a 100 card all of a sudden.

Oh, did I say 100 dollar card? Yeah, it probably would gain a little bit getting back into standard of course. Don't deny it would happen. You know it would.


Now until Force is reprinted, you have the only pre-emptive counter in the format being another Mercadian Masques card. Unmask. Yeah, that's already one expensive ass foil card. Just imagine if it got a good use again. Oooo, that one will hurt.

So to everyone who thinks this would make some really cheap format, think again. You're wrong and dead wrong at that. I will sit back and make a pile of money off it so I don't mind a bit. I have a ton of foils from Mercadian Masques and Invasion era. Just remember to be careful what you ask for.

[cranksmith]

^
^
^

This.

People are not realizing what this entails if ever this happens. In any case, I will still play Legacy as the *real* Eternal format, not this speculative dumbed-down "Eternal" format that will not allow us to play with our duals. It's not Eternal if there's no real ABU-Revised duals.

[Yochanan]

So to everyone who thinks this would make some really cheap format, think again. You're wrong and dead wrong at that. I will sit back and make a pile of money off it so I don't mind a bit. I have a ton of foils from Mercadian Masques and Invasion era. Just remember to be careful what you ask for.

I couldn't agree more.