New Competitive Eternal Format Coming

[Linkin Pac]

Sorry if this is the wrong forum, but this will most likely cause discussion among the Legacy crowd. I saw this on mtgsalvation:


First, some background.

The people at WoTC want to support Eternal formats at all levels of competitive play. Unfortunately, the format is simply too expensive for something like a Pro Tour and associated qualifier season to be economically viable. The price of key staples would be even higher they are now if they did this, due to increased demand. And because of the reserve list, they can't simply print more.

So, a new format is coming. It will be released later this year, with high-level events next year and probably a Pro Tour in 2012, assuming the format catches on. Here's how it will work.

1. Normal constructed Magic rules apply. This isn't a special-rules format like EDH or Planechase.
2. All cards printed during Masques block and later blocks, plus associated core sets, are legal (except banned cards, of course).
3. Nothing ever rotates out.

One point of uncertainty. My source says they haven't definitely decided on Masques block as the cutoff yet, but it will be around that time.

With the ability ro reprint staples if necessary, the people at WoTC hope they can make a non-rotating format which is accessible enough to use in a PT and qualifier season.

What are your thoughts on this?

[FoolofaTook]

This is the logical evolution of WotC's business model. Keep making competitive formats that include the latest cards while also giving people access to many of their favorite cards from the past. They'll probably do this repeatedly if Magic remains a successful product.

I would definitely play the format if it came into existence, alongside Legacy.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

This would be retarded. No one wants to play Legacy Lite. Just makes ChYOS a sanctioned format.

[Exospaciac]

This would be retarded. No one wants to play Legacy Lite. Just makes ChYOS a sanctioned format.

Yep. I agree with this 110%.
Combo seems like it would be extremely degenerate in a format like that without FoW. I guess we'll have to see how it pans out...

[DuxDucis]

Very reliable source for this information.

The entire internet is pointing to the Salvation post, and the OP has a grand total of 1 post.


EldraziSpy
Just Getting Started

Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 1

Not that anyone is really a credible source on the internet but let's use some common sense here before we get our panties in a knot.

[dschalter]

Very reliable source for this information.

The entire internet is pointing to the Salvation post, and the OP has a grand total of 1 post.



Not that anyone is really a credible source on the internet but let's use some common sense here before we get our panties in a knot.

You may be right, but it's no surprise that the dude has no previous posts: he is presumably violating either an explicit NDA or a general "don't leak this yet" order so it's not remotely a stretch to assume that he just doesn't want to be identified.

[4eak]

dschalter
Member
Join Date
Mar 2010
Posts
1


Well played. =) /conspiracy off

If created, I'd give another eternal format a shot.




peace,
4eak

[MMogg]

Interesting that it may NOT be a Masques cut off. That, I can only guess, is due to debates over including cards like Dark Ritual, Counterspell and Brainstorm, which would definitely be format-defining cards.

@ IBA, one perspective is indeed a "Legacy Lite", but another perspective is Extended-plus ("heavy" sounds stupid :wink:). I guess it would resemble more like current Extended than like Legacy since most of Legacy's defining decks would be gone (no Wasteland, LED, Force of Will, Swords to Plowshares, Lackey, Reanimate/Exhume, et al.). Duals and fetches would still be around, only they'd be Ravinca duals, like in current Extended.

I think CYOS is more difficult to moderate as in making sure that decks are "legal". I'm not arguing it is too difficult, but I can imagine the DCI/Wizards prefers simplicity over complexity, and CYOS is slightly more complex than a format with a general cut off (i.e. Masques on).

I can't go out on a limb and say it's stupid or horrible, because quite honestly, I haven't seriously contemplated what decks would port over or what kind of meta would develop. Also, that cut off line does not equate a cheap format. Tarmogoyf, Wasteland, and Force of Will are three cards they could easily have been kept cheaper (especially the latter two) without any worries of policy violations, but they still haven't bothered. I'm sure this trend of hot cards becoming increasingly expensive and scarce would not end with the introduction of a new format. (Oh God, I'm really not trying to start another price discussion, but if that is one of the reasons for this idea, namely unfettered ability to reprint, they haven't exactly shown a willingness to use that ability they have now.)

Edit: To add to the conspiracy theory: there is every possibility that the "leak" is intentional. Companies and politicians often leak information intentionally so that they can see and gather feedback on a particular idea. This gives them a chance to make appropriate amendments prior to a formal policy declaration.

Edit II: Dammit, this is a duplicate thread. Just saw the other one (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?17200-New-Extended-Plus-format-coming) now. I wasted all that analysis when it has already been said. :frown:

[Linkin Pac]

Regarding the source of this info, I was skeptical about the poster at first, but I've noticed on that site that a lot of times a user will show up for the first time and reveal a spoiler or some other piece of news, so I wouldn't completely discredit it.

As for the format, I would be very disappointed with it, as cutting off all cards before Masques block or any block for that matter seems unfair and would not be a real eternal format anyway. I'm guessing it's supposed to be Wizard's response to the recent Reprint List policy, but what about people that want to play with their old cards? Ice Age block and Tempest block were both new and available at one point and in the future, Ravnica and Time Spiral block will eventually be old and hard to get a hold of, so where does it stop when deciding which cards to keep legal? Also, this would just drive up the prices of the new duals and such, not to mention Goyf still being pricey.

[Vacrix]

Well Dark Ritual would be legal, and so would AdN.. And so would Cabal Ritual.. And Force wouldn't be so yeah. The format looks dumb to me. Whats wrong with Legacy anyhow?

[PunkRocker1134]

Whats wrong with Legacy anyhow?

Price for the most part. I mean being a broke college player I can play one of two good decks: Goblins or Merfolk.

[Vacrix]

Price for the most part. I mean being a broke college player I can play one of two good decks: Goblins or Merfolk.
That never stopped anyone from playing MWS. Sure real cards are nice. I much prefer doing extensive testing with a deck, like on MWS, before I buy it anyway. By the time you are a good pilot with the deck on MWS, you can likely put aside a little bit of money each week (if you have a job) to buy the deck. I don't know what your financial situation is but $400 in 4 months time seems reasonable. Then you can start winning cards by playing well so that you can make other decks or improve the existing ones. I bought SI 3 years ago for about $150 and used shitty cards like Duress instead of Cabal Therapy until I won enough store credit to buy the rest of the deck. Just be a good pilot and legacy is the format for you.

[dschalter]

Why are people acting as though there wouldn't be a banned list? I doubt WoTC is dumb enough to make a new format that will immediately be dominated by degenerate combos (maybe that will be the case in time, but if they do go with this I'm sure they will test the main accelerators quite a bit to see if they should be banned or not).

[Vacrix]

2. All cards printed during Masques block and later blocks, plus associated core sets, are legal (except banned cards, of course).
Well that isn't very specific. So stuff like Skullclamp would be banned but this limited information doesn't necessarily elude to its own list. I'm sure there would be but what would it be? Sure a lot of the cards in ANT would be legal but LED wouldn't be, and neither would Underground Sea so its missing quite a bit. It would be a strong deck but not necessarily the best one.

Either way, it looks like Legacy for people who don't want to play a more skill intensive format. I'll be sticking to Legacy, thanks.

[DCTopTeam]

Bs imho. Nothings wrong w Legacy. No deck is dominating the way I can see it.

[Skeggi]

I suppose this is fake, but hypothetically: legacy was, as far as I can see, created as a cheaper alternative to vintage. Now that Legacy has become so popular, legacy itself has become rather expensive. Creating a cheap alternative to legacy is just running around in circles.

[Antonius]

as others have said, this format could be entirely dominated by combo.
Unless, of course, combo is kept in check by bans.

If so, then the format will consist of Goblins (old school, with bidding, perhaps?), Domain zoo, various forms of Blue Goyf and a couple of old favorite control deck re-hashes (wake? Slide?). Expect Rishadan Port to be a gangster and just show up in every deck.

[Eksem]

A format like this should probably replace Extended, because that format is going downhill fast, in quality and popularity.

I would play a format like this, though. It would not be my main format, for sure, but I'd definitly try it out.

[Piceli89]

Just a thing about Combo: if it's from MM and so on, "ANT" would lose these cards:
-Mystical tutor.
-Lion's Eye Diamond.
-Mox Diamond (which should be in the LEDless lists).
-Dual Lands.
-Lotus petal.

I don't know you, but it would be visibly weakened. All the Initial Mana Sources ANT relies on are not avaiable except the shittiest one, Chrome Mox, and good luck if you're trying to replace that with Simian Spirit Guides. Perhaps it could come out like a sort of crappy UBr list with lots of red and black acceleration and Empty the Warrens, but still I don't think it would be overpowered.
Still, since it could go off turn1-2 without FoW being a huge risk, Ad Nauseam will probably be banned.

[Gocho]

Pauper Storm comboes at turn 3-4 many times without this cards and only play commons.

ANT must adapt to the new format a little, but believe me. You'll hate it or play it in 1-2 months.

[VeniVidiVici]

Not sure why you'd play ANT in this format when you could play EntombHulk, which unless I'm missing something obvious don't lose anything (aside from Body Snatcher, but meh). ANT would gain Mind's Desire if you wanted it though.

[Gheizen64]

I suppose this is fake, but hypothetically: legacy was, as far as I can see, created as a cheaper alternative to vintage. Now that Legacy has become so popular, legacy itself has become rather expensive. Creating a cheap alternative to legacy is just running around in circles.

^

This. One million times over. Just reprint those staples and make money. Don't make people irritated because you create a new "eternal" format every 3 and 4 years while letting the older "eternal" format die. If this is true, it's just retarded.

[Cthuloo]

Uhm, I'm not very excited about this possible new format. I love to play legacy because I get to play the cards I used to play when I started. Legacy to me is fascinating because of Duals, Force, Plow, Sinkhole, Tabernacle, Mox Diamond... and so on. For a coincidence, I stopped playing right during the Masques block, so the new format would have very small appeal to me. As a side note, this will probably mean there will be no more support to legacy, which will likely slowly decline like Vintage did.

[Lothian]

Originally Posted by Vacrix
Whats wrong with Legacy anyhow?

Price for the most part. I mean being a broke college player I can play one of two good decks: Goblins or Merfolk.


hmm... yeah yeah yeah

Surely WotC is preparing its next marketing bomb by trashing the thriving Legacy community to replace it with a dumb poor post-Masques format.

WotC have no hidden social wealthare agenda. They're in it to make money targeting rich youngsters from upper middle-class who can buy few boxes to get those lovely 4-of Mythics.

But don't worry, they'll keep you in the frame. You're a college student, you'll be a wealthy young professional soon. But they'd rather get you hooked on cracking few packs for draft than any eternal format whatsoever..

WotC make money selling boxes and developping online format, end of

[TFD]

So, uh everyone ready to see all Ad Nauseam top 8's? Well you'd better get ready. If all of this information I see people playing Ad Nauseam all over the place since it and zoo are the only decks that really don't lose too much (I mean top tier decks) and Ad Nauseam owns zoo in the correct hands. Really. Its not even fair. I think the first few months of this format at least are going to be reminiscent of Raffinity in Mirrodin Block. You either play the boogeyman or play to beat the boogeyman.

[walkerdog]

So, uh everyone ready to see all Ad Nauseam top 8's? Well you'd better get ready. If all of this information I see people playing Ad Nauseam all over the place since it and zoo are the only decks that really don't lose too much (I mean top tier decks) and Ad Nauseam owns zoo in the correct hands. Really. Its not even fair. I think the first few months of this format at least are going to be reminiscent of Raffinity in Mirrodin Block. You either play the boogeyman or play to beat the boogeyman.

Why do you think Merf won't roll ANT all day instead? Losing FoW sucks, but they have other options and can MD stifle x 4 to fill the void vs combo too.

[Piceli89]

Why do you think Merf won't roll ANT all day instead? Losing FoW sucks, but they have other options and can MD stifle x 4 to fill the void vs combo too.

Yeah, because as everyone knows, Stifle>Tendrils. Lol.

[jrsthethird]

Not sure why you'd play ANT in this format when you could play EntombHulk, which unless I'm missing something obvious don't lose anything (aside from Body Snatcher, but meh). ANT would gain Mind's Desire if you wanted it though.

.....because Entomb Hulk is a bad deck?


hmm... yeah yeah yeah

Surely WotC is preparing its next marketing bomb by trashing the thriving Legacy community to replace it with a dumb poor post-Masques format.

The fact that Legacy has the best community gives us a lot of momentum to pull through the change. Monthly tournaments in Vestal, NY draw regularly 80-90+ people, some of whom drive for 5 hours one way to get there. My local store gets it's largest draw on free Legacy tournaments (we rotate every Sunday, last week's Extended only had 8, Legacy gets over 20 every time). And, of course, GP Madrid had 2200 people. So I don't think this would make a big dent in Legacy numbers. New people can still be drawn in once they get disgruntled with this new format.

[ktkenshinx]

In such a format, they would undoubtedly tailor a banlist to the new format. This banlist would mirror the existing Legacy banlist, and would be designed to maximize format health. The following cards would undoubtedly be ported from the preexisting list.

Flash (6th Edition)
Gush (MM)
Mind's Desire (Scourge)
Skullclamp (Darksteel)
Vampiric Tutor (6th Edition)

You will notice that Worldgorger Dragon is not on this list. This combo might absolutely be allowed into the format, given that Animate Dead, Necromancy, and Dance of the Dead are all gone. Off the top of my head, there are no suitable substitutes for these cards in the deck.
Now, in addition to these cards, the following might also have to be banned for the sake of format health.

Aether Vial (just as it is currently banned in Extended)
Disciple of the Vault (would prove to be out of control in an Alara/Mirrodin affinity deck)
Entomb (Just as it was banned in Extended before the rotation)
Ad Nauseum (degenerate combo ala Mind's Desire)

I am likely missing some cards, but this list would ostensibly make for a healthy format. A lot of decks would still exist in one form or the other, and new archetypes would arise or come back from the dead. It would be both an economically sound and a player-oriented format.

One question that people might have regards Dredge/Hulk/Reanimator and other powerful graveyard based decks. Even if Entomb were not banned, and I assure you, it would be, these decks would still be kept in check by the same graveyard hate. Crypt, Relic, Trap, Leyline are all still in this new format. As such, many decks would not have to be totally nerfed or banned into oblivion (read: Dredge). While Wizards might do this, and I hope they do not, it is not a necessary move on their part.

-ktkenshinx-

[Shugyosha]

Counterbalance and Top would still be legal in this format as well as Meddling Mage, Gaddock Teeg and Ethersworn Canonist, all these cards are usually much more important than Force to kill Combodecks as they get around Orim's Chant and Duress. Spell Pierce and Dispel would also be still available. In case you are worried about turn 1 combo run Chrome Mox as people did when Flash was Legal with Baseruption.

All this left aside this new format would just circumvent the problem for some years and split up the community again. Don't think it will happen.

[walkerdog]

Counterbalance and Top would still be legal in this format as well as Meddling Mage, Gaddock Teeg and Ethersworn Canonist, all these cards are usually much more important than Force to kill Combodecks as they get around Orim's Chant and Duress. Spell Pierce and Dispel would also be still available. In case you are worried about turn 1 combo run Chrome Mox as people did when Flash was Legal with Baseruption.

All this left aside this new format would just circumvent the problem for some years and split up the community again. Don't think it will happen.

The one problem is solves is that it can ignore the reserve list and reprint any legal cards for the format. On the other hand, not now, but in 5 or so years, it might kill legacy. :/

[DrJones]

On one hand, it's sad that they will probably want to kill legacy just like they killed vintage because their stubborness and lack of common sense.

On the other hand, extended is less popular than legacy, and as long as that's the case, I don't think there's anything to fear for the introduction of a new fo(W-less)rmat.

[morgan_coke]

This is a TERRIBLE idea. I mean, seriously, wtf?

"We made a dumb decision on the reserved list so we're going to make a goofy hybrid extended format that nobody wants or will like."

Just go ahead and implement CYoS already. There's at least a lot of potential and interest in that format. They can start it on MTGO, where enforcement isn't a problem, then see how it does before deciding whether or not to migrate it to paper as a "cheap" alternative to Legacy.

I mean, if MODO isn't there to help them test out new specialty formats, then why do they run other random specialty formats on it?

This idea smacks way, way to much of dumbassery squared with deuchebaggery.

[dahcmai]

The only thing that makes me wonder about the validity of this is the point of view of Wizards themselves. They have no real good reason to create "Overextended" or whatever it would be called. When extended was created it wasn't exactly popular and now trying to basically recreate it would make it compete against the decently popular Extended and the hugely popular Legacy. It's a formula for instant disaster. It makes no sense even from a marketing view. What would they stand to gain and lose? They stand to lose a lot by alienating people that play in the surrounding formats. They gain...Nothing....a new format that will be played, but barely? This is shooting yourself in the foot only.

"Overextended" would only be a way to get out of the Reserve list lock, but that's the only thing it serves and that's not a good enough reason when there's already ways around their little self imposed chastity belt.

[Arrowni]

Just do a CYOS format Wizards. Its more challenging, easier to play for the Standard crew and dare I say, more balanced.

[Pulp_Fiction]

This would be the BEST FORMAT EVER if they banned Top and kept Vampiric Tutor legal. That way I could play Netherhaups, which is ... probably the coolest deck of all times.

I actually really like the idea of this format. Counterbalance would totally fucking blow since CCs of cards will be all over the place instead of 2 and under. Decks like: Fires, Combo Elves, Enduring Ideal, TEPS, Goblin Bidding, and others would be very cool to see played and most likely will. Being a combo player, I have no problem if they banned ANT. I really just want to play with Mind's Desire (which is inferior) but still cool.

Hell, we might even see a Counter-Rebel comeback! The only blue-based control deck that is actually interesting!

[Koby]

So to be honest, I didn't read anything past the first five posts in this thread.

That being said, here's why I think this is just a rumor and will not be happening.

Roughly 30% of MTG's revenue comes from MTGO sales. Large portion of this is current set drafting and ticket sales, sure, but there is a growing following of Legacy online. The OP states a proposed format that is essentially Extended-Plus. Anything from Masques onward. Two large problems I see with this new format:

1) Masques isn't even released on MTGO, and not anytime soon will we be seeing Peat Bogs coming online. For a company that is trying to align both paper and online aspects of the game towards a unified play structure, this rumor fails.

2) The price of IPA cards online is redonkulous. Creating this format will achieve the exact opposite of the "no more expensive cards" idea that is being mentioned as a catalyst for the new format. Sure, you won't need dual lands, but what about those Pernicious Deeds, Vindicate, etc.

That being said, I do agree that there needs to be a format that bridges the gap between Legacy and Extended. However, the rumor stated in the OP seems far too farfetched for Wizards to push.


we might even see a Counter-Rebel comeback! The only blue-based control deck that is actually interesting!

There is nothing interesting about the Rebel scum. It's actually more boring to play than Landstill... hey wait a minute... :)

[walkerdog]

This would be the BEST FORMAT EVER if they banned Top and kept Vampiric Tutor legal. That way I could play Netherhaups, which is ... probably the coolest deck of all times.

I actually really like the idea of this format. Counterbalance would totally fucking blow since CCs of cards will be all over the place instead of 2 and under. Decks like: Fires, Combo Elves, Enduring Ideal, TEPS, Goblin Bidding, and others would be very cool to see played and most likely will. Being a combo player, I have no problem if they banned ANT. I really just want to play with Mind's Desire (which is inferior) but still cool.

Hell, we might even see a Counter-Rebel comeback! The only blue-based control deck that is actually interesting!

Umm... Vamp Tutor wouldn't be in the format... too old.

EDIT

And for those getting nostalgic... old bad (compared to now) decks won't win... You will see: Tendrils combo, counterbalance decks (remember it was dominating Ext two seasons ago, and since we've seen more solid cards, DDT (that may overlap with CB decks), thresh variants (overlap again), zoo, merf, goblins, burn (which is actually solid b/c shocklands <3 burn decks), and probably no stompy, although it could happen, minus cot/at. You might see 1-2 older decks do alright I guess... but I'd hate to have to play with them against the above decks.

[majikal]

Umm... Vamp Tutor wouldn't be in the format... too old.

It was in 6th Edition, which was legal at the same time as Mercadian Masques.

[walkerdog]

It was in 6th Edition, which was legal at the same time as Mercadian Masques.

oh! good call then... more likely to be banned than CB though.

[Koby]

Legal with Masques doesn't mean it came out afterwards. Rather, 6th Edition came out the summer before Masques hit, after Saga block (and fundamentally made Morphling into Superman). If they stick to Masques+, then 6th Edition is ruled out of legality.

[majikal]

Legal with Masques doesn't mean it came out afterwards. Rather, 6th Edition came out the summer before Masques hit, after Saga block (and fundamentally made Morphling into Superman). If they stick to Masques+, then 6th Edition is ruled out of legality.
Not necessarily. It came out in the same year as Mercadian Masques, so feasibly the beginning point would be MM + 6th edition. It wouldn't make sense to skip two years ahead for the first legal core set.

[Koby]

It would if you look at what sets are available on MTGO.

[Zappa]

So, assuming this new format is indeed true. That, having as their solution to the problem for legacy as the barrier for entrance is indeed high. Since they'll be supporting the format, as claimed by the original poster. We could imagine a pretty big turn out, however, the shock-lands that will be replacing the current dual lands, as well as the would be new staples. With such a high demand all the sudden for such cards, and card store's greed factoring in big time. Wouldn't the result remain the same?

[Jak]

If this is true (which I doubt), why would they choose the starting point to be MM?

[kicks_422]

Maybe because it's after the broken-ness of Urza block?

[pippo84]

I would never play in this kind of format. No way, legacy is just great, many people play and there is no point of stopping it.
Hope WotC won't kill legacy.

[Exospaciac]

If this is true (which I doubt), why would they choose the starting point to be MM?

Because that's when the Reserved List ends, maybe?

[majikal]

It would if you look at what sets are available on MTGO.
Fail. Mercadian Masques isn't even available on MTGO.

[walkerdog]

Fail. Mercadian Masques isn't even available on MTGO.

It would be the only format in this theorectical format that would be missing, plus they need a really good reaon to get people to draft that awful set.

[Koby]

Fail. Mercadian Masques isn't even available on MTGO.

Yep, which is why I think this is a false rumor. Nothing about this smells well thought out. (Which is how WotC likes to operate anyway)

[Xaul Zan]

#52 posts later and this thread hasnt been closed why ?

[freakish777]

Aside from the fact that the OP had 1 post and isn't credible in the slightest, try this:

Legacy is on MTGO, Wizards could do an MTGO Legacy Pro Tour and "print" as many Force of Wills, USeas, Trops, etc as everyone needed (and they'd spend a boatload of cash too while they're at it) without breaking their Reserve List policy.

I honestly don't see why there can't be a Legacy PT or Legacy PTQ season. Saying "The prices and quantities just don't allow for it" without any quantitative analysis to back it up, is, and always will be, bullshit. Show some math before you start making claims.

[SpeedOfDark]

the introduction of a new fo(W-less)rmat.

haha! nice ;p

Ofc, it would make a ton more sense to rework parts of the reserved list and support legacy... however, since this is obviously not going to happen, I suppose Legacy-Lite is worth a try (if it exists).

[DownSyndromeKarl]

I'm not reading three pages of this when I called this a couple months ago.

Who's the man? Jeff's the man.

[snorlaxcom]

So mind's desire takes all?

[TokenMaster]

If there is such a format, Mind's Desire will likely be banned. It was banned in Legacy and restricted in vintage before it was even released.

[quadibloc]

Just reprint those staples and make money.But that's the whole problem. Reprint the cards and the whole game collapses because no one can trust Wizards any more, so there is no point in owning cards, and people just play with proxies. If reprinting cards is not an option, at least when it comes to the Legacy staples, then this is the next best thing.

After all, if you can't have what you really want, doesn't it make sense to try to make do with something almost as good that you can get?

[DrJones]

But that's the whole problem. Reprint the cards and the whole game collapses because no one can trust Wizards any more.Heh, you weren't there when Wizards finished support of the Magic Encyclopedia all of the sudden, were you? It's far worse for the game having them not reprinting the cards than the other way around. It's the difference between having a game with players and having a game without them. And the problem only gets worse every year. Restricted availability is what will collapse the game, and not some reprints.

[dschalter]

But that's the whole problem. Reprint the cards and the whole game collapses because no one can trust Wizards any more, so there is no point in owning cards, and people just play with proxies. If reprinting cards is not an option, at least when it comes to the Legacy staples, then this is the next best thing.

After all, if you can't have what you really want, doesn't it make sense to try to make do with something almost as good that you can get?

Overdramatic much? Given the number of people who want the reserved list abolished, there are plenty of people who would like Wizards more if they did that. I'm not saying that means they should remove the list, but to say the game would collapse is ridiculous. People realize that Wizards' motive is simple: to make as much money as possible, regardless of other things.

[jrsthethird]

After all, if you can't have what you really want, doesn't it make sense to try to make do with something almost as good that you can get?

This is not 'almost as good'. This sucks.

[yankeedave]

It would be the only format in this theorectical format that would be missing, plus they need a really good reaon to get people to draft that awful set.

Brainstorm? Dark Ritual? Those seem like a good reason to draft MM to me!

[DrJones]

It would be the only format in this theorectical format that would be missing, plus they need a really good reaon to get people to draft that awful set.I think Mercadian Masques alone has more playables than the entire Kamigawa Block.

[theintangiblefatman]

Brainstorm? Dark Ritual? Those seem like a good reason to draft MM to me!

Those are four for a dollar. They aren't going to be driving any drafts.



I think Mercadian Masques alone has more playables than the entire Kamigawa Block.

That's a non-sequitur. The choice won't be between drafting Masques and Kamigawa; it will be between Masques and the current core set/newest two blocks.

[(nameless one)]

As much as I hate this idea, I dont mind giving this format a chance. I currently do not own any Onslaught Fetches and Duals and I still love Legacy because of its diversity. Not to mention that on this "hyper-extended" format, most of my decks would be suboptimal (I play Elves, Goblins, Merfolk, Quinn, Building Ichorid and D&T and trying to "fix" my Counter-Rebel deck.

Hey, at least I am giving it a chance right?

[xTrainx]

Heh, you weren't there when Wizards finished support of the Magic Encyclopedia all of the sudden, were you? It's far worse for the game having them not reprinting the cards than the other way around. It's the difference between having a game with players and having a game without them. And the problem only gets worse every year. Restricted availability is what will collapse the game, and not some reprints.

QFT. I believe that Legacy is still a solid format, but it is reaching a wall in terms of availability. As someone said before, yes, people quit and recycle cards, but if two people come in for each person who quits, we have an issue.

Reprints are a necessary part of the game, and the reserved list is an incredibly stupid idea.
Speculators, in my eyes, are the leeches of the game, hardly ever playing: and now Wizards is deciding to support this activity?

[Elfrago]

Dredge in the format +
No Wasteland, No FOW =
----------------------------------
Broken Format

[jrsthethird]

Extended Dredge is beatable.

Your argument = kaput.

[Smmenen]

Sorry if this is the wrong forum, but this will most likely cause discussion among the Legacy crowd. I saw this on mtgsalvation:


First, some background.

The people at WoTC want to support Eternal formats at all levels of competitive play. Unfortunately, the format is simply too expensive for something like a Pro Tour and associated qualifier season to be economically viable. The price of key staples would be even higher they are now if they did this, due to increased demand. And because of the reserve list, they can't simply print more.

So, a new format is coming. It will be released later this year, with high-level events next year and probably a Pro Tour in 2012, assuming the format catches on. Here's how it will work.

1. Normal constructed Magic rules apply. This isn't a special-rules format like EDH or Planechase.
2. All cards printed during Masques block and later blocks, plus associated core sets, are legal (except banned cards, of course).
3. Nothing ever rotates out.

One point of uncertainty. My source says they haven't definitely decided on Masques block as the cutoff yet, but it will be around that time.

With the ability ro reprint staples if necessary, the people at WoTC hope they can make a non-rotating format which is accessible enough to use in a PT and qualifier season.

What are your thoughts on this?

This announcement is a slap in the face to legacy. Wizards thinks that it can create a safety valve to ignore the reserve list issue but capture the enthusiasm around Legacy. Dedicated Legacy players should hope that this fails, so that Wizards will be forced to once again confront its poor decisions around the Reserved List.

[Master Shake]

Extended Dredge is beatable.

Your argument = kaput.

How many extended decks would stand a chance against dredge + Breakthrough, Cabal Therapy, Ichorid, Careful Study, City of Brass and Coliseum?

What was that about arguements again?

[Aggro_zombies]

This announcement is a slap in the face to legacy. Wizards thinks that it can create a safety valve to ignore the reserve list issue but capture the enthusiasm around Legacy. Dedicated Legacy players should hope that this fails, so that Wizards will be forced to once again confront its poor decisions around the Reserved List.
Hate to break it to ya, broski, but if Wizards was manly enough to own up to the Reserved List mistake, it wouldn't be doing this in the first place.

I doubt it's real. Legacy is on MTGO, where every staple card - including the duals! - can be "reprinted" at any time (interesting aside - despite that threat, many of the digital format staples still hold quite a lot of value and are in some cases more expensive than the paper versions). If Wizards wanted a Legacy PTQ season, they could make it MTGO-only or something. They've already had MTGO PTQs for paper Pro Tours, so the only thing holding it back would be the lack of precedent for a qualifier season without physical tournaments - and, I guess, the comparatively much smaller Legacy MTGO population.

This format seems like it's already mostly solved anyway. Just look up decks from the last Extended season before things started rotating annually and add stuff from Masques and the recent sets to them. It doesn't seem that exciting, but it's nice to know that the lack of Force of Will is balanced out by the lack of LED, Lotus Petal, and Mystical Tutor, which make Storm decks worse. They'd have to use shit like Lotus Bloom or Heartbeat of Spring, both of which put a floor on the combo turn.

[Raystar]

If (big IF) the OP is not feeding us a fake at least I get some satisfaction at the thought of all the short sighted "collectors" that screamed against the abolition of the reserved list.

Their precious multis and "staples" will start losing value the same day this format starts.

[Aggro_zombies]

If (big IF) the OP is not feeding us a fake at least I get some satisfaction at the thought of all the short sighted "collectors" that screamed against the abolition of the reserved list.

Their precious multis and "staples" will start losing value the same day this format starts.
Stuff like the dual lands won't lose value, they'll just stagnate. The things that could potentially lose value would be things like LED or Phyrexian Dreadnought, which aren't playable for whatever reason in Vintage. However, I'm not sure if there's a precedent for stuff like this happening - Menendian would know for the Vintage market.

Not like anyone plays Vintage anyway.

The more I think about it, the more I see this format as being purely seasonal, like Extended. That is, for the better part of the year, no one thinks about or gives a shit about this format, and then the qualifiers roll around and there's a mad rush that ends in the associated Pro Tour, and then people go back to not giving a shit until the next season.

[ktkenshinx]

Dredge was out of control in Extended/Standard years ago. Wizards realized this and has been printing powerful graveyard hate ever since. Crypt/Leyline/Trap/Relic/etc. keeps Dredge in check, not FoW and Wasteland (although as a Dredge player, I attest that these cards certainly help). Dredge will not be anymore out of control than when it was around in late 2005 through 2007 in Extended: graveyard hate more than kept it in check.

Now, on to the question at hand. First, a conclusion:

CONCLUSION 2
A new format would likely face the same problems as Legacy, because even though it may be cheaper, money does not seem to be the inhibitor of format growth. Other factors are at work.

And now, here is how I reach it.

There is a prevailing rumor out there that Legacy costs as much as Standard, if not slightly more. Source contributors constantly bemoan players that are too cheap to buy cards, unwilling to dish out the money for a deck, and that have unrealistic expectations in card price. "Don't bitch about the cards." "You have to be willing to spend money to play this game." These are common criticisms in the Legacy community. How do they hold up under scrutiny?

I visited Magic.tcgplayer.com to use their awesome Deck Price tool. I looked at a number of decks of various archetypes in Standard to see an average price for the decktype, and then an average price for the format. I have examined the midrange price for all the Standard decks of note (Jund, UW Control, Naya, etc.) to find these values. I also have used the largest, recent events in calculating these averages: SCG Opens, GP Brussels, GP Kuala Lumpur, etc. This is not a holistic, perfect, completely random sample. It is, however, representative in a general way.

Jund: 317.12
UW Control: 671.22
Mythic: 744.55
Naya: 583.78
RDW: 190.59
Format Average: 501.4528

Now, Standard has a pretty clear cut metagame. These are the big 5 decktypes in the format, and anything else is basically an outlier. Legacy is a different matter. There are many more viable decks in Legacy, so I was hardpressed to choose 5 that were representative in the same way that Jund, UW, Mythic, etc. were representative of Standard. To do so, I used Menendian's values from this article: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=185131. All pric edata is taken from the relatively up-to-date and accurate "Price for Legacy" thread on MTGSalvation (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=185131). NOTE: All prices here are the LOWEST listing, not the mid-range price as per Standard.

Merfolk (no Goyf): 316.15
Countertop: 1430.96
Zoo: 645
Threshold: 768.34 (average of both values given on the MTGS thread)
Goblins: 267.77
ANT: 614.47
Format Average: 673.78

This is not the most scientific or rigorous economic evaluation, but it gives some sense of the bigger picture. Legacy proved, on average, to be about $170 more expensive than Standard. This is not that serious overall; it's basically a playset of Duals more expensive on average. Players that are playing Standard and dishing out money for UW Control, Mythic, and Naya could easily be doing the same in Legacy for ANT, Zoo, and Threshold. Jund, the most popular archetype in Standard by leagues, is barely over 300 bucks. Goblins is less, and Merfolk is around the same (to say nothing of Dredge, Affinity ($175), Burn, Elves, etc, all of which cost less or the same). Even poor T2 RDW players can afford Dredge, Burn, and Affinity!

That said, it is unlikely that Standard players would ever pick up Countertop. This is a stupidly expensive deck as far as deckprices go, almost 100% more than the highest standard deck (UW Control). This is too bad, considering that in the SCG Open series, it was the second most played deck, and is certainly a powerhouse in its own right. Then again, the first most played deck was Merfolk, a deck that is unquestionably in the price range of any standard player.

So, what do we make of this data? How does it bear on the supposed new format? How does it bear on the potential for a new format, even if this current rumor proves to be false? What relevance does it have to Legacy?

CONCLUSION 1
People that play Standard have the economic means to play Legacy

The real teller is Fish. Merfolk is one of the strongest decks in Legacy. A player that wanted to win events could run this deck and have a damn good chance of scoring prizes. Merfolk is cheaper than every T2 deck except RDW, and this latter deck appears far less than all the others. Merfolk is the exact same price as Jund.
So, if Standard players are not switching to Legacy, or even trying it out, it has nothing to do with the actual costs of the format. So why is Legacy less popular than standard? Here are some ideas

1. Perceived economic value: players think Legacy costs more, even though it does not

2. High transition costs: players already have some standard cards, and it is easy to buy others. They do not own any old cards, and therefore do not want to enter a format where they have no commons/uncommons that are relevant.

3. The choice dilemma: Legacy has a lot more viable archetypes than does standard. Players may be overwhelmed with options and unable to decide on a deck to buy.

4. Exclusive format: Legacy is a bit exclusive and arrogant as a community. It is easy to enter into Standard through online forum browsing and netdecking. Legacy is far more aristocratic online, and potentially unattractive to new players.

These are some options, but by no means all of them. So, why is this relevant to the initial post?

CONCLUSION 2
A new format would likely face the same problems as Legacy, because even though it may be cheaper, money does not seem to be the inhibitor of format growth. Other factors are at work.

-ktkenshinx-

[(nameless one)]

4. Exclusive format: Legacy is a bit exclusive and arrogant as a community. It is easy to enter into Standard through online forum browsing and netdecking. Legacy is far more aristocratic online, and potentially unattractive to new players.




I think this is the main reason why a lot of players don't like crossing over to Legacy. I have seen a lot of asshole that think they are better because they play Legacy. Its funny because those same asshole tend to lose to standard decks such as Jund and Vampires with their Legacy decks.

Also, rogue decks are always frowned upon the by community for some reason. I remember when I started playing Quinn in my meta. A lot of players started saying WTF as they thought I was running a legacy highlander deck. Little to their surprise, it actually produced some results.


I think this new hyper-extended format is going to be an ofshoot of the Online Classic format, before the older sets were actually released on MTGO.

[Aggro_zombies]

I think this is the main reason why a lot of players don't like crossing over to Legacy. I have seen a lot of asshole that think they are better because they play Legacy. Its funny because those same asshole tend to lose to standard decks such as Jund and Vampires with their Legacy decks.

Also, rogue decks are always frowned upon the by community for some reason. I remember when I started playing Quinn in my meta. A lot of players started saying WTF as they thought I was running a legacy highlander deck. Little to their surprise, it actually produced some results.
Really? I've never really encountered this, but then again I tend to live in areas with approximately zero Legacy scene. The bigger thing for people in these areas is card availability and price. I know ktkenshinx addressed the price issue, but one thing he only tangentially touched on is "getting your money's worth" from that investment. There are tons of opportunities to play Standard, starting on the FNM level and moving all the way up to big, Wizards-backed events. Furthermore, there are tons of people playing Standard. Because of this, your deck tends to "pay itself off" much better in terms of enjoyment and gaming time with Standard as opposed to Legacy, where many places have monthly events if they have events at all. Many players will automatically invest in Type II because of the availability of both cards (there's lots of them because of Limited and the sets still being in print) and opportunities to play, but many of those same players shy away from investing in Legacy on top of that because the returns are much lower. You're giving up a lot of potential playing time by not investing in Type II, but you're not losing anything by not investing in Legacy. Doing both is actually quite costly for many people even if the Legacy investment tends to be more of a one-shot deal.

At least, that's how I see it. I don't play Type II but play Legacy quite religiously. However, there have been very few tournaments for it where I've lived, so now most of what I play is Limited when I want to get my Magic fix.

[mogote]

NOTE: All prices here are the LOWEST listing, not the mid-range price as per Standard.
Is there a reason why you used mid-range prices for Standard and lowest prices for Legacy? Magic.tcgplayer.com also has decklists for Legacy so it would make sense to use these for a better comparison.

[ktkenshinx]

I think this is the main reason why a lot of players don't like crossing over to Legacy. I have seen a lot of asshole that think they are better because they play Legacy. Its funny because those same asshole tend to lose to standard decks such as Jund and Vampires with their Legacy decks

Also, rogue decks are always frowned upon the by community for some reason. I remember when I started playing Quinn in my meta. A lot of players started saying WTF as they thought I was running a legacy highlander deck. Little to their surprise, it actually produced some results.
I strongly agree with this statement. Legacy players have a large sense of entitlement, probably from some combination of money spent on their decks and perceived tournament/Magic experience. In many cases, this may be a discrepancy in age. Legacy players have access to all Magic sets, and older players may be more inclined to involve themselves in a format where they can maximize their card pool. Naturally, friction is going to arise between older and younger players. Yet, this is only one possible explanation. I have seen Standard events with many 30 year-olds and Legacy events with many 13 year-olds. Perhaps it is just the power level of Legacy decks, ostensibly much more powerful than their Standard counterparts. Perhaps it's a matter of honor, using only the good old days of Magic instead of the newfangled card frames and mechanics. Whatever the reason, the end result is clear: an exclusive format that is widely perceived as such by potential players.

The rogue deck phenomenon is particularly bad, and I am glad you point this out. Deck suggestions, and card suggestions, are often met with intense skepticism and outright hostility. Naturally, this leads to a stupidly stagnant format with most ideas being outright dismissed. A prime example of this was Vampire Hexmage and Dark Depths. Marit Lage's lack of shroud met with instant opposition from most players in the Legacy community. Players responded in the Hexmage thread with long lists of vulnerabilities and cards that kill the combo. Constructive? No. Ego-satisfying and e-peen earning? In their minds, yes.
In the end, the Hexmage advocates won, with their decks scoring major victories and appearances in the format.


At least, that's how I see it. I don't play Type II but play Legacy quite religiously. However, there have been very few tournaments for it where I've lived, so now most of what I play is Limited when I want to get my Magic fix.
AZ's point about "getting your money's worth" is an excellent one. There are two sides to this factor. One is economic, and AZ does a good job covering it in his post. There are simply not a lot of tournaments for Legacy, whereas FNM and States competitions abound. The end result is less competition for Legacy players, and less prize money as a result. But there is also the "fun" value in getting your money's worth. If you buy a big, bad Legacy deck, it is unlikely that you will have many people to play with relative to other Magic formats. Yes, theoretically Legacy is all about deck and card diversity, but in practice, it is full of staples. No one wants to play casual against ANT or Dredge, and no one likes getting countered by FoW and Daze. Standard decks, while pretty good, are not as good (for the most part) as their Legacy counterparts. This lends them to more play, as more non-tournament players will play against them. Even if you are SOLELY a tournament player, Standard is the better "fun" investment. Why? You are going to be playing more tournaments and thus having more fun if you play T2.



Is there a reason why you used mid-range prices for Standard and lowest prices for Legacy? Magic.tcgplayer.com also has decklists for Legacy so it would make sense to use these for a better comparison.
I liked the cohesion of the MTGS thread and its price compilation, although I admit that the comparison is a bit skewed. I also had trouble finding "representative" lists on tcgplayer.com, as their Legacy section is very poorly sorted, compared to their T2 one. I will go back and fix this, however.

-ktkenshinx-

[General_Norris]

^I very much agree with you, thinking outside the box is frowned upon in Legacy far more than in Standard and Extended because the palyers are much more used to random strategies nobody ever thought before like Owling Mine or that crappy 9cc spell called Tooth and Nail.

[Forbiddian]

I think this is the main reason why a lot of players don't like crossing over to Legacy. I have seen a lot of asshole that think they are better because they play Legacy. Its funny because those same asshole tend to lose to standard decks such as Jund and Vampires with their Legacy decks.

Also, rogue decks are always frowned upon the by community for some reason. I remember when I started playing Quinn in my meta. A lot of players started saying WTF as they thought I was running a legacy highlander deck. Little to their surprise, it actually produced some results.


I think this new hyper-extended format is going to be an ofshoot of the Online Classic format, before the older sets were actually released on MTGO.

In my experience, Legacy players are actually quite a bit more mature and more fun.

Standard has way more whiney kids at their first tournament who don't know any of the rules and it also has more extremely competitive people who would rather piss everyone off and win 1% more games than make friends and have a slightly lower Total Rating. People playing Legacy have found something in Magic that makes them come back to the game that's not just a tournament win.

Legacy is, by its nature, more conservative. The vast majority of new ideas are bad, so it's pretty obvious that new ideas are met with criticism until they put out a lot of results. I think you'd see the same pattern in Standard if new decks didn't change so much and players had time to acclimate to winning strategies and concepts (like Brainstorm Fetchlands).


In the end, the Hexmage advocates won, with their decks scoring major victories and appearances in the format.


You really look at it that way?

I don't think anybody was saying that Hexmage Depths was unworkable, just that it was not a big improvement on Stiflenaught or Painter's Grind and more vulnerable than NOPro. Which is pretty much what it proved to be, with the hype around Hexmage Depths really dying down. Now it's regarded as a playable, but not a tier 1 strategy.

[Smmenen]

4. Exclusive format: Legacy is a bit exclusive and arrogant as a community. It is easy to enter into Standard through online forum browsing and netdecking. Legacy is far more aristocratic online, and potentially unattractive to new players. -

This makes me laugh because I think it's very untrue. This forum is extremely accessible -- it has major threads on practically every major archetype that are easy to find. Compare this website with www.themanadrain.com, the main Vintage portal, and that is a much more aristocratic format.

I really don't see how someone can say that they think Legacy is aristocratic online. How can that be true? You can't find decklists easily?

[Aggro_zombies]

This makes me laugh because I think it's very untrue. This forum is extremely accessible -- it has major threads on practically every major archetype that are easy to find. Compare this website with www.themanadrain.com, the main Vintage portal, and that is a much more aristocratic format.

I really don't see how someone can say that they think Legacy is aristocratic online. How can that be true? You can't find decklists easily?
No, what he means is that the players are cliquey douchebags.

I personally haven't found this to be true - every format has people like that, and Legacy doesn't seem to have them in higher numbers than Standard or Extended. If anything, Standard is worse because of all the people who read the articles written by the pros online and then think they're hot shit because they can regurgitate LSV or Chapin and therefore have everything figured out.

The online Legacy community is small enough that the really vocal people stand out a lot more, but if you're just cruising around looking for lists to netdeck, it's pretty easy to ignore them. I mean, there is always deckcheck.net.

[Smmenen]

No, what he means is that the players are cliquey douchebags.

I personally haven't found this to be true - every format has people like that, and Legacy doesn't seem to have them in higher numbers than Standard or Extended. If anything, Standard is worse because of all the people who read the articles written by the pros online and then think they're hot shit because they can regurgitate LSV or Chapin and therefore have everything figured out.

The online Legacy community is small enough that the really vocal people stand out a lot more, but if you're just cruising around looking for lists to netdeck, it's pretty easy to ignore them. I mean, there is always deckcheck.net.

I hate to say it -- but isn't the PTQ community must much worse? People have an attitude about who's good and who sux, etc.

I haven't found it to be the case at all in Legacy that players dismiss deck ideas as stupid. So many decks are viable in legacy, probably far more than in any other format I've ever played.

[PunkRocker1134]

If more places ran Legacy events, I'm sure the price would be a little easier to swallow. I know I wouldn't have too much of an issue with cost (for example a budget Enchantress list that doesn't lose much at all costs 200), if there was a place by Denver or Boulder that ran consistent Legacy events. When I play limited around here, half the people don't even know what Legacy is...

[Aggro_zombies]

I hate to say it -- but isn't the PTQ community must much worse? People have an attitude about who's good and who sux, etc.

I haven't found it to be the case at all in Legacy that players dismiss deck ideas as stupid. So many decks are viable in legacy, probably far more than in any other format I've ever played.
...that's basically what I said.

Legacy is still mostly regarded as a casual format in comparison to Type II and Extended, which have lots of high-level marquee events. The recent run of SCG tournaments is beginning to change this, but without a qualifier season it probably won't get as bad as Standard and Extended and their associated Qualifier Crawlers.

[SpikeyMikey]

"A little skewed"?? Try highly misleading. Comparing low end Legacy prices with median Standard prices and concluding that the prices are the same is like comparing a US fission bomb with a French fusion bomb and concluding that France has the more dangerous nuclear arsenal. Even at the prices you listed, how is a difference of a third more not significant? Also, the variance on prices is more pronounced in Legacy. The difference between low end and high end is much more greater than in Standard. This means that the difference from.

[Vacrix]

"A little skewed"?? Try highly misleading. Comparing low end Legacy prices with median Standard prices and concluding that the prices are the same is like comparing a US fission bomb with a French fusion bomb and concluding that France has the more dangerous nuclear arsenal. Even at the prices you listed, how is a difference of a third more not significant? Also, the variance on prices is more pronounced in Legacy. The difference between low end and high end is much more greater than in Standard. This means that the difference from.
The prices are surely significant, but its also important to recognize that Standard is a rotating format and Legacy is not. I've had the same deck since 07. Its an investment. If magic is just a side hobby, its better to play Legacy where your deck won't be illegal in a year. If you play all the time, maybe Standard is a better choice since so many more people play it.

EDIT:
Its also worth noting that cards in Legacy have been appreciating in value. I bought my LEDs for 20 back in the day. Now they are worth 50. It really is an investment.

[frogboy]

I hate to say it -- but isn't the PTQ community must much worse? People have an attitude about who's good and who sux, etc.

My experience is that people who are AIDS are generally douchebags regardless of format, but that the people who are legitimately skilled are often pretty pleasant people. I can think of a lot of mediocre players who are assholes in both formats, but I rarely encounter someone who is both very good and a total jerk.

[Xaul Zan]

What a dick.

good. I heard you like dick.

anyways, the threads up to 5 pages now of everyones "opinion" which is virtually the same as everyone elses, about a "rumor" posted on another website. is everyone here really that bored or do yall just love melodrama ?

I heard you like warnings. Three warnings = a site ban.

-PR

[SpikeyMikey]

The prices are surely significant, but its also important to recognize that Standard is a rotating format and Legacy is not. I've had the same deck since 07. Its an investment. If magic is just a side hobby, its better to play Legacy where your deck won't be illegal in a year. If you play all the time, maybe Standard is a better choice since so many more people play it.

EDIT:
Its also worth noting that cards in Legacy have been appreciating in value. I bought my LEDs for 20 back in the day. Now they are worth 50. It really is an investment.

The first part of your statement is technically correct but wrong for all intents and purposes. Name one current tier 1.5 or better deck that is is substantially similar to a deck that existed 3 years ago. The sets may not rotate, but the field changes and tier 1 decks become obsolete and unplayable. Powerful cards are invalidated by power creep, both via functional upgrades in new sets and a changing metagame.

Morphling was once seen as a card that would never become obsolete. So was Stroke of Genius. Nimble Mongoose was the biggest pillar of aggresive U/G creature bases, usually backed with Werebear and Quirion Dryad. All of these powerful cards are totally unplayable now.

I designed and built two serious tier 1 decks in the fledgling days of Legacy. San Diego Zoo T8'd the first Legacy worlds and UGBW Landstill T8'd the second. Neither of those decks is even close to competitive in today's Legacy.

So please don't use the "Legacy doesn't rotate" speech, because it's a fallacious argument.

Also, and I went over this in one of the reprint threads, but the growth of card values over the last 10 years is totally unsustainable. Goods cannot see 1000% and more inflation in a mere decade and be expected not to eventually readjust. Your LEDs will eventually crash. Probably not until Magic dies, but long before that, they'll stagnate, just like P9 and other vintage staples have done.

Edit: for substantially similar, let's use the criteria of over 80% of the same cards and the same win con.

[ktkenshinx]

"A little skewed"?? Try highly misleading. Comparing low end Legacy prices with median Standard prices and concluding that the prices are the same is like comparing a US fission bomb with a French fusion bomb and concluding that France has the more dangerous nuclear arsenal. Even at the prices you listed, how is a difference of a third more not significant? Also, the variance on prices is more pronounced in Legacy. The difference between low end and high end is much more greater than in Standard. This means that the difference from.
I was showing that the low-end Legacy prices were comparable to the mid-range Standard prices. That means players who are involved in Standard, for the most part, have the economic means to play Legacy but just choose not to for other reasons.

Alternately, we can revise the decklist prices to fit the TCGPlayer medians for the Legacy decklists. This will lead us to an entirely different, but still highly disturbing, conclusion.

Merfolk: 636.91
Goyf Countertop: 1435.93
Zoo: 1002.24
Threshold: 768.335 (unable to find reputable information on this through the TCGPlayer database)
Goblins: 267.77 (same as above)
ANT: 1126.17
Format Average: 872.89

Goblins and Threshold are probably considerably higher, given that all the other prices went up on the TCGPlayer database from the MTGS thread. That means the format average is in excess of 900 dollars. 900 dollars. That is a ton of money. The difference between Jund at 300 and Merfolk at 600 (to completely ignore Countertop at an absurd 1400) is monumental.

If we are to use this data, which I am perfectly happy with using, then we must reach an entirely different conclusion. As said before, it is still quite disturbing.

Conclusion
People are actually prohibited from Legacy because of costs

Sure, we can make arguments all day about how players end up spending more than 1000 dollars in two years on Standard decks, or how 1400 is a good investment in a deck that never gets old. But the perceived costs of spending 1400 dollars in one fell swoop on Magic decks are totally outrageous. People just do not want to spend that much money on Magic cards. I am totally fine with making investments in Magic decks, as are most players who frequent this site. But try and convince new players to make an investment, especially players coming from Standard and Casual where this "investment" concept just has no meaning.

A new format would solve this problem, however much we Legacy players might despise it.

-ktkenshinx-

[Vacrix]

I've been playing SI for 3 years. Sure I've changed my build a little but the most I've done is pimp out the cards that were already in it with foils, and I changed the MD a little (its 80% the same, same win con). I spent $150 on a cheap version of it, and won the rest of it with store credit. Since then, I bought the rest of the cards to change it to Pact SI with store credit (with a few exceptions). So its pretty much costed me $150 and a few fun FNM's. I consider SI to be Tier 1.5.
Sure this isn't the case with every deck but most of the staples remain the same, namely fetch and dual lands. Standard only has staples until the rotation.

[xTrainx]

I was showing that the low-end Legacy prices were comparable to the mid-range Standard prices. That means players who are involved in Standard, for the most part, have the economic means to play Legacy but just choose not to for other reasons.

Alternately, we can revise the decklist prices to fit the TCGPlayer medians for the Legacy decklists. This will lead us to an entirely different, but still highly disturbing, conclusion.

Merfolk: 636.91
Goyf Countertop: 1435.93
Zoo: 1002.24
Threshold: 768.335 (unable to find reputable information on this through the TCGPlayer database)
Goblins: 267.77 (same as above)
ANT: 1126.17
Format Average: 872.89

Goblins and Threshold are probably considerably higher, given that all the other prices went up on the TCGPlayer database from the MTGS thread. That means the format average is in excess of 900 dollars. 900 dollars. That is a ton of money. The difference between Jund at 300 and Merfolk at 600 (to completely ignore Countertop at an absurd 1400) is monumental.

If we are to use this data, which I am perfectly happy with using, then we must reach an entirely different conclusion. As said before, it is still quite disturbing.

Conclusion
People are actually prohibited from Legacy because of costs

Sure, we can make arguments all day about how players end up spending more than 1000 dollars in two years on Standard decks, or how 1400 is a good investment in a deck that never gets old. But the perceived costs of spending 1400 dollars in one fell swoop on Magic decks are totally outrageous. People just do not want to spend that much money on Magic cards. I am totally fine with making investments in Magic decks, as are most players who frequent this site. But try and convince new players to make an investment, especially players coming from Standard and Casual where this "investment" concept just has no meaning.

A new format would solve this problem, however much we Legacy players might despise it.

-ktkenshinx-

Excellent piece of information.
About the onetime expense vs. over time: Recently I did a quick mental addition of how much I spend on magic cards, per year. After adding up all the little draft expenses, prereleases, tournament fees, it came to 500$. I was stunned: I had no idea how I got that money, and why I was spending it. The answer came shortly after: it was fun, and it never seems like that much spread out over so long.

I have a feeling that this is one of the two reasons that Standard is so alluring to new players. The first reason is that everyone plays it, the second reason is that the perceived cost is so low.

People could spread the cost for Legacy out over a long period of time, but for that whole time they would be left with nothing. This is why it is hard to get into Legacy without a friend to help you - it took me like 6 months to build a semblance of a deck, and that was after just playing limited and trading around.

Legacy is expensive, and not expensive at the same time. If you don't understand that, please reread the above post and this one.

[walkerdog]

Brainstorm? Dark Ritual? Those seem like a good reason to draft MM to me!


Yes, cuz there are 0 copies of those cards online already. I was referring to MTGO, where MM is going to sell like 100 packs....

[Tacosnape]

This whole thread, regardless of the validity of the post, can be summed up very neatly: All Eternal formats without Force of Will will fail.

[SMR0079]

While there is no reason to take this seriously, the concept is worth considering.

Legacy 2.0 could start post revised and exclude the dual lands along with a few other rarities and become much more accessible, on the level of extended.

Otherwise we may be at peak capacity - not necessarily a bad thing but there will be no Legacy pro tour under the status quo.

[Vacrix]

This whole thread, regardless of the validity of the post, can be summed up very neatly: All Eternal formats without Force of Will will fail.
Well said sir.

[ddt15]

If it doesn't have FoW, then Dark Ritual will be banned. If Dark Ritual is banned, storm combo will suck. If storm combo sucks, people will play Gush+Tog, which in turn will lead to Gush banned. Anyways, in the end you will end up playing twenty slightly different versions of random junk+Thopters.

[Dia_Bot]

This whole thread, regardless of the validity of the post, can be summed up very neatly: All Eternal formats without Force of Will will fail.
+1

[DrJones]

This whole thread, regardless of the validity of the post, can be summed up very neatly: All Eternal formats without Force of Will will fail.Well, so far we only got three "eternal formats" and Vintage (with Force of Will) has already failed, while EDH is doing okay at the moment and you can't run more than one Force in the format. So, your argument right now is a bit spurious.

[Skeggi]

Why has Vintage failed? It's a perfectly good alternative to playing Legacy every once in a while.

[Cabal_chan]

Well, so far we only got three "eternal formats" and Vintage (with Force of Will) has already failed, while EDH is doing okay at the moment and you can't run more than one Force in the format. So, your argument right now is a bit spurious.

What was your argument for FoW being bad for the format?

[DrJones]

What was your argument for FoW being bad for the format?There are plenty of reasons for this, but the main one is that it allows degenerate combo decks that are too difficult to hate.

[Cabal_chan]

There are plenty of reasons for this, but the main one is that it allows degenerate combo decks that are too difficult to hate.

And you say that Vintage is a failed format why?

Edit: Wait, huh? How does FoW allow degenerate combo decks when FoW is one of the cards that keeps combo in check?

[(nameless one)]

And you say that Vintage is a failed format why?

Edit: Wait, huh? How does FoW allow degenerate combo decks when FoW is one of the cards that keeps combo in check?

LOL, whenever there is a discussion about Force of Will, Dr. Jones will always be there bashing it. I have a feeling he/she is one of those Belcher pilots. There are two things Belcher pilots hate: Force of Will and ANT.

[DrJones]

LOL, whenever there is a discussion about Force of Will, Dr. Jones will always be there bashing it. I have a feeling he/she is one of those Belcher pilots. There are two things Belcher pilots hate: Force of Will and ANT.Belcher and SI are bad combo decks, I'd rather play burn.

Edit: With all my respects to the players that still play Burn, Belcher and Spanish Inquisition.

[ktkenshinx]

Force of Will is not on the Reserved List. It could easily be reprinted if Wizards wanted the format to thrive and was concerned about degenerate combo. Daze would also be involved just by virtue of being in Nemesis.

I do not understand the argument that Storm combo decks are kept in check by Force of Will. They can be equally checked with Stifle, Trickbind, Duress, Thoughtseize, Mindbreak Trap, and so on. FoW certainly helps keep them in check, but it is by no means the only option. Besides, it would be easy to ban Ad Nauseum (a card that enables only one deck) to slow down the format. Dark Ritual? They won't ban it. It assists too many potential strategies that Wizards would like to encourage. Yet, even if you flatly disagreed with every single argument in this post, you cannot help but admit that they can reprint FoW and include it in the new format.

As to Vintage, the format might not have failed, but it has certainly floundered. Legacy is by far the more popular format at the moment, both pushed by Wizards and by other major Magic-based organizations. After all, SCG did not host a Vintage Open.

-ktkenshinx-

[Anusien]

The thing about all the specialized combo hate cards is that they're exactly that: specialized combo hate cards. Part of the problem for combo is that half the format runs Force of Will. The same would not be true for Mindbreak Trap in a FoW-less format.

[General_Norris]

^And it only stops Storm decks that do not run any discard or protection like every combo deck that doesn't try to be a glass cannon.

[Admiral_Arzar]

^And it only stops Storm decks that do not run any discard or protection like every combo deck that doesn't try to be a glass cannon.

The above is true, to some degree. Of course, there will always be times where either the combo deck doesn't draw protection, or the opponent doesn't draw hate. From all the gloom and doom in this thread you'd think that a format with viable combo decks *gasp* is a horrible thing. Personally, I like formats where all three major archetypes are represented in reasonable numbers. Also, it should be noted that hate often does not have to completely shut down a combo deck - merely disrupt it sufficiently to allow the opponent time to win or gain advantage (i.e. set up Top + Cbalance lock).

[Smmenen]

No, what he means is that the players are cliquey douchebags.
.

But how can you tell if someone is 'cliquey' on an internet forum? That doesn't make sense to me.

Otherwise it's just anecdotal evidence.

[Koby]

Hypothetical analysis of Over-extended:

Legal sets: MM through present (excluding 6th Edition, which came out before MM)

"Problem cards":
* Mind's Desire
* Dark Ritual (and derivatives namely, the red ones)
* Counterbalance/Sensei's Top (specific interaction)
* Gush
* AEther Vial (was banned in old Extended which was more or less the same format)
* Disciple of the Vaults
etc

I don't see logical reason for formulating this new format when it would necessitate a whole slew of fresh bannings from past learned experience in the older Extended format and current Legacy format. Removing sets up through Urza's Destiny and 6th Edition will not prevent the format from degenerating into combo decks of yesteryear.

Again, I reiterate that this format will still be MTGO-incomplete (lacks Masques Block and the latter two sets of Saga Block), and thus assert that this is a hoax/rumor that is unsound.

[Aggro_zombies]

Hypothetical analysis of Over-extended:

Legal sets: MM through present (excluding 6th Edition, which came out before MM)

"Problem cards":
* Mind's Desire
* Dark Ritual (and derivatives namely, the red ones)
* Counterbalance/Sensei's Top (specific interaction)
* Gush
* AEther Vial (was banned in old Extended which was more or less the same format)
* Disciple of the Vaults
etc

I don't see logical reason for formulating this new format when it would necessitate a whole slew of fresh bannings from past learned experience in the older Extended format and current Legacy format. Removing sets up through Urza's Destiny and 6th Edition will not prevent the format from degenerating into combo decks of yesteryear.

Again, I reiterate that this format will still be MTGO-incomplete (lacks Masques Block and the latter two sets of Saga Block), and thus assert that this is a hoax/rumor that is unsound.
The thing is, the rumor is that this format is still "under development," and not scheduled to be announced until later this year with seasons starting next year. By that time, Masques should be online.

[Puzzle]

I own a lot of Legacy cards but I think there is a good case for such a new format if they won't reprint dual lands.
Ignoring the question of where to start (I'd prefer Tempest but am not fussed), if we want Legacy to really flourish, then we need new players to replace the ones leaving.
New players will be discouraged if they can't compete with older ones because they have to play Rav-lands instead of duals, for instance, or if they can't find FoW.
Yes, these cards can be found but this requires effort looking for them and a potential new player is unlikely to make that effort if he can more easily access another format.

Additionally, I don't think losing Fow or duals is such a big deal.
The format would obviously be different but is it such a bad thing in itself ?
The B&R list can handle combo better than any card.
I'd argue that fetches are actually often better than straight duals. In fact, not having duals would force people to make more difficult decisions about what to fetch, raising the interest of the game.

I think I'm on a similar wavelength to ktkenshinx but may be going even further, in thinking that such a format could actually advantageously replace Legacy if it's well handled [/controversy].

[Koby]

The thing is, the rumor is that this format is still "under development," and not scheduled to be announced until later this year with seasons starting next year. By that time, Masques should be online.

I disagree by this assesment, partly because we do know the release schedule (http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/other/112309a) for MTGO. Here's the skinny for those who don't want to jump through links:


Product Description Release Date
Shards of Alara Block Booster Packs 1/18/2010
Worldwake 2/22/2010
Duel Decks: Phyrexia vs. The Coalition 3/22/2010
Urza's Saga 3/29/2010
Rise of the Eldrazi 5/10/2010
Urza's Legacy 6/21/2010
Magic 2011 8/2/2010
From the Vault: Relics 8/30/2010
Scars of Mirrodin 10/18/2010
Masters Edition 4 12/13/2010

At best, we will get MM in the 2nd half of 2011, with Nemesis and Prophecy filling out the rest of 2012. I don't see high level support for MTGO PTQs in this new format while it is missing vital cards from those sets. MED4 is also unlikely to include cards that are forward Mirage, so that would not help to fulfill the new format's set discrepancy. Realistic projection of MM appearing online is June 2011.

[Nightmare]

I LIKE playing with dual lands. I LIKE playing with Force of Will - and against it. I LIKE playing with Natural Order, and Survival of the Fittest, and all of the staples that this format is going to take away. Hell I don't even mind LED - not that much, anyway.

I don't particularly care about whether Wizards creates a new format or not. I played Legacy before they supported it, and I'll play it after. I drove hundreds of miles for duals when they were 20 a piece. I'll do it again when they're 20 again. Sure, a few GPs were nice, and so are the SCG Opens. But they were not why I started playing Legacy, and if they go, I am positive the format will survive as it did for years before they showed up.

[Aggro_zombies]

I disagree by this assesment, partly because we do know the release schedule (http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/other/112309a) for MTGO. Here's the skinny for those who don't want to jump through links:


Product Description Release Date
Shards of Alara Block Booster Packs 1/18/2010
Worldwake 2/22/2010
Duel Decks: Phyrexia vs. The Coalition 3/22/2010
Urza's Saga 3/29/2010
Rise of the Eldrazi 5/10/2010
Urza's Legacy 6/21/2010
Magic 2011 8/2/2010
From the Vault: Relics 8/30/2010
Scars of Mirrodin 10/18/2010
Masters Edition 4 12/13/2010

At best, we will get MM in the 2nd half of 2011, with Nemesis and Prophecy filling out the rest of 2012. I don't see high level support for MTGO PTQs in this new format while it is missing vital cards from those sets. MED4 is also unlikely to include cards that are forward Mirage, so that would not help to fulfill the new format's set discrepancy. Realistic projection of MM appearing online is June 2011.

First, some background.

The people at WoTC want to support Eternal formats at all levels of competitive play. Unfortunately, the format is simply too expensive for something like a Pro Tour and associated qualifier season to be economically viable. The price of key staples would be even higher they are now if they did this, due to increased demand. And because of the reserve list, they can't simply print more.

So, a new format is coming. It will be released later this year, with high-level events next year and probably a Pro Tour in 2012, assuming the format catches on. Here's how it will work.

1. Normal constructed Magic rules apply. This isn't a special-rules format like EDH or Planechase.
2. All cards printed during Masques block and later blocks, plus associated core sets, are legal (except banned cards, of course).
3. Nothing ever rotates out.

One point of uncertainty. My source says they haven't definitely decided on Masques block as the cutoff yet, but it will be around that time.

With the ability ro reprint staples if necessary, the people at WoTC hope they can make a non-rotating format which is accessible enough to use in a PT and qualifier season.
There's still plenty of time for Masques and Nemesis to come out. There's nothing worth playing in Prophecy anyway, so for all intents and purposes that set doesn't exist.

EDIT: @Nightmare: yes, but you're lucky to live in an area where there was a local Legacy scene to begin with and where there's enough interest for local stores to hold tournaments independently of the big ones. If the Wizards and SCG events die, interest in the rest of the country will taper off and those of us who live there will be screwed unless we shell out lots of money to get into MTGO Legacy. Interest around here is only sustained because of the big events putting Legacy into the limelight.

[Koby]

@Aggro_Zombies: I did read over the OP just to make sure I wasn't referencing it wrong. I agree with your points, and the general lacklusterness of Masques block. While I wouldn't care much about this format, it is telling that WotC would speculate a new Eternal format that isn't completely accessible on MTGO, for which they've been dreaming of aligning with paper since eons ago - and finally achieved with the Extended rotations of 2006. I don't anticipate them creating another semi-format online just to appease Reserve List Abolishiners (myself included). I think the whole idea stinks of corporate greed. However, I do recognize the need for a format that fulfills a bridge between Legacy proper and Extended.

I'm simply saying, such a format could easily become BYOS or Block Wars, as that would achieve a limited enough scope and have set parameters of only allowing sets printed after the Reserve List became a non-issue.

Perhaps there should be more push towards sanctioning BYOS instead of crying fowl for this abomination of an Eternal format that is being proposed in the OP.

[lordofthepit]

I'd be okay with this format if it replaces Extended: either as a sanctioned format, or as a de facto replacement in causing Extended players to defect to this new format. I'd simply keep playing Legacy, and while I currently have no intention of trying this new format, I'll keep my options open.

However, if this drives players away from Legacy, this would be disastrous and I would be strongly inclined to quit Magic altogether.

[Aggro_zombies]

@Aggro_Zombies: I did read over the OP just to make sure I wasn't referencing it wrong. I agree with your points, and the general lacklusterness of Masques block. While I wouldn't care much about this format, it is telling that WotC would speculate a new Eternal format that isn't completely accessible on MTGO, for which they've been dreaming of aligning with paper since eons ago - and finally achieved with the Extended rotations of 2006. I don't anticipate them creating another semi-format online just to appease Reserve List Abolishiners (myself included). I think the whole idea stinks of corporate greed. However, I do recognize the need for a format that fulfills a bridge between Legacy proper and Extended.

I'm simply saying, such a format could easily become BYOS or Block Wars, as that would achieve a limited enough scope and have set parameters of only allowing sets printed after the Reserve List became a non-issue.

Perhaps there should be more push towards sanctioning BYOS instead of crying fowl for this abomination of an Eternal format that is being proposed in the OP.
Well, almost everything playable in Masques block is already online: Daze (Jace vs. Chandra), Brainstorm (Coldsnap precons), Counterspell (Seventh Edition), and Dark Ritual (various sets). The things that aren't: Rishadan Port, Misdirection, and Unmask. And Rebels, I suppose, but I can't see how that would be a playable deck.

Either way, Wizards tied its own hands over the Reserved List, so there is now a real ceiling on the number of people the format can support. This theoretical format would combine most of the breadth of Legacy with the size of modern print runs and the ability to reprint cards as needed. Neither Block Wars nor BYOS have the depth of interactions a huge card pool has, but they can't go too far back in time before hitting Reserved List limitations.

But really, let's face it: the only cards that see widespread play from before Masques are the duals and Force. There are some others - components of 43Land, artifact mana, or Reanimate, for example - but by and large many of the decks we play consist almost entirely of cards printed after Masques. True, the new format would be very different due to the lack of duals, Force of Will, and broken combo accelerants, but there's also more room for decisions (for example, mana base construction now has real costs associated with running tons of duals other than "Gee, getting hit by Wasteland would suck." You wouldn't just automatically splash anymore, because of the CiPT clause on the Rav duals making life total management relative to tempo a real issue). Granted, it could very well end up stagnating like Extended did this season, but for all the appearance of dynamic flux Legacy is in, it's also pretty stagnant (not playing Reanimator, NO, Merfolk, or Zoo? Then, are you an amazing player or gigantic lucksack? No? Enjoy your negative zero chance of making it to the top tables).

[Some Guy]

Force of Will is not on the Reserved List. It could easily be reprinted.

yes , a especially now with many cards in RoE costing 7+ manas. it could easily be time to reprint a free counterspell. timmy would love it , he would not cry at all. and throw daze into it too , just by virtue.

Capitalization is required on these boards. Please use it in the future. Thanks. - zilla

[jrsthethird]

Enjoy your negative zero chance of making it to the top tables).

-0 = +0

Just sayin'.

[ktkenshinx]

yes , a especially now with many cards in RoE costing 7+ manas. it could easily be time to reprint a free counterspell. timmy would love it , he would not cry at all. and throw daze into it too , just by virtue.
1. Let us assume that FoW is needed (which I do not think it is at all). Wizards could easily have their new format Extended Extended include new Master's Sets that were produced specifically to introduce staples into the metagame. A new From the Vaults: Staples set could bring back some old school Legacy cards into the new format, but not impact preexisting Extended and Standard decks. This would simply be a policy change on Wizards part, and as we know, they are perfectly alright with making policy changes.

2. Why exactly is FoW needed in this new format? Would it not be easier to ban certain components of degenerate decks? No one should read this question and counter with a long, sarcastic list of cards just to try and prove a contrary point. Extended works out just fine without FoW, and that format does not even involve various decks that would undoubtedly perservere in the new enviornment (Mono Black Aggro courtesy of Dark Ritual, Counter Rebels, Affinity, Goblins, Elves, Merfolk, Dredge, etc.) These are all perfectly viable strategies that could coexist alongside ThopterDepths and Countertop, especially if stategic bannings were made to ensure that certain decks, most notably combo, didn't get out of control.

-ktkenshinx-

[Jak]

I LIKE playing with dual lands. I LIKE playing with Force of Will - and against it. I LIKE playing with Natural Order, and Survival of the Fittest, and all of the staples that this format is going to take away. Hell I don't even mind LED - not that much, anyway.

I don't particularly care about whether Wizards creates a new format or not. I played Legacy before they supported it, and I'll play it after. I drove hundreds of miles for duals when they were 20 a piece. I'll do it again when they're 20 again. Sure, a few GPs were nice, and so are the SCG Opens. But they were not why I started playing Legacy, and if they go, I am positive the format will survive as it did for years before they showed up.

This is sex.

[Some Guy]

Let us assume that FoW is needed (which I do not think it is at all). Wizards could easily have their new format Extended Extended include new Master's Sets that were produced specifically to introduce staples into the metagame. A new From the Vaults: Staples set could bring back some old school Legacy cards into the new format, but not impact preexisting Extended and Standard decks. This would simply be a policy change on Wizards part, and as we know, they are perfectly alright with making policy changes.


yes , because if they wont do it for legacy , they will certainly do it for an imaginary format. also , at what point after Masters Set: Staples , would the format basically become legacy minus duals.

Capitalization is required on these boards. Please use it in the future. Thanks. - zilla

[stuckpixel]

Personally, I think this is going to happen (and the more I think about it, the more exciting it is) - that being said, just because wizards can't reprint original duals doesn't mean they couldn't print cards that would help to get people playing legacy.

M10 lands with land-types would be (comes into play tapped unless you control another plains or island) would probably do the trick. That or Comes into play tapped unless you reveal a blue or white card from your hand (with basic types). Sure, both are strictly worse than duals, but both would also be passable enough to get beginners into the format. Eventually you'd want to have one or two real duals to compliment them, but it wouldn't be such a drastic need.

WoTC can also reprint FoW and wasteland as they want. Doing this in say M11 would go a long way towards improving the cost of the format. I own playsets of both, and I wouldn't be bothered in the slightest if they dropped down to 8-10 bucks a pop.

Honestly, passable duals and reprinted fow + wasteland would fix legacy for a long time.

[Gheizen64]

Personally, I think this is going to happen (and the more I think about it, the more exciting it is) - that being said, just because wizards can't reprint original duals doesn't mean they couldn't print cards that would help to get people playing legacy.

M10 lands with land-types would be (comes into play tapped unless you control another plains or island) would probably do the trick. That or Comes into play tapped unless you reveal a blue or white card from your hand (with basic types). Sure, both are strictly worse than duals, but both would also be passable enough to get beginners into the format. Eventually you'd want to have one or two real duals to compliment them, but it wouldn't be such a drastic need.

WoTC can also reprint FoW and wasteland as they want. Doing this in say M11 would go a long way towards improving the cost of the format. I own playsets of both, and I wouldn't be bothered in the slightest if they dropped down to 8-10 bucks a pop.

Honestly, passable duals and reprinted fow + wasteland would fix legacy for a long time.

Passable dual aren't really viable for the format. A dual situationally better than normal duals is the only thing that could be played over normal duals. For example:

Retarded Taiga
Land - Forest Mountain
As retarded Taiga come into play, reveal a green or red creature from your hand. If you do retarded Taiga do one damage to target opponent. If you don't, Retarded taiga come into play tapped.

is situationally better than normal taiga in aggressive decks and would be probably played there. Simply "strictly worse" dual are just stupid.

[eq.firemind]

The new format will be interesting, but I have a bad feeling:

There is a card that is playable in 3 formats: Vintage, Legacy and Extended. It costs 75$.
If it will be playable in Vintage, Legacy, OverExtended and Extended, it will cost 75/3*4=100$.
Rough sketch and I don't say this will happend, but even a possibility of such nonsense scares the hell out of me.

[ktkenshinx]

yes , because if they wont do it for legacy , they will certainly do it for an imaginary format. also , at what point after Masters Set: Staples , would the format basically become legacy minus duals.
If Wizards made a new format, Extended Extended/Overextended/Esquared/Double E/whatever, then that would already be a huge slap in the face for Legacy. In this alternate history, Wizards' unwillingness to do something for the Legacy format has no bearing whatsoever on their willingness to do it for a new format. Indeed they would have every incentive to support this new format, whatever that would take.
That said, FoW is a staple that is simply un-needed in the new format. There is nothing that including FoW accomplishes that a new and relatively modest Banned (or even Restricted) list would not accomplish. Hypothetical arguments about a potential FTV set are all predicated on the necessity of FoW and other staples, a necessity that is completely unproven.
Moreover, by making a new format, Wizards is all but acknowledging that they are unlikely to reprint Legacy staples; if they were going to do so, then why bother making the new format? This is in response to both stuckpixel's and some guy's point.

Passable dual aren't really viable for the format. A dual situationally better than normal duals is the only thing that could be played over normal duals. For example:

Retarded Taiga
Land - Forest Mountain
As retarded Taiga come into play, reveal a green or red creature from your hand. If you do retarded Taiga do one damage to target opponent. If you don't, Retarded taiga come into play tapped.

is situationally better than normal taiga in aggressive decks and would be probably played there. Simply "strictly worse" dual are just stupid.
I agree that "strictly worse" duals do nothing to help some Legacy players. I disagree, however, with your assertion that they "are just stupid." Even a somewhat worse Dual would ultimately benefit Legacy as a format, provided its drawback was not too severe. Why? Because then more players could become involved in the format with access to duals, even duals that were somewhat worse.

For instance, any of the following "Taiga's" would be playable in Legacy without being so much worse as to make it not worth their inclusion.

Aggro Taiga
Land - Forest Mountain
As Tribal Taiga enters the battlefield, you may reveal a creature from your hand. If you don't, Tribal Taiga enters the battlefield tapped.

Symbiotic Taiga
Land - Forest Mountain
As Symbiotic Taiga enters the battlefield, your opponent chooses Mountain or Forest. If you do not control a land of the chosen type, Symbiotic Taiga enters the battlefield tapped.

Scavenger Taiga
Land - Forest Mountain
As Contested Taiga enters the battlefield, you may exile a land card from your graveyard. If you don't, Scavenger Taiga enters the battlefield tapped.

The first works well in any GR aggro based deck; Zoo players would happily play this over a regular Taiga if it meant saving $20 (at least, new players entering the format). Symbiotic Taiga is a bit slower, essentially forcing a turn 3 Taiga. Scavenger Taiga almost has no drawback, given the prevalence of Fetchlands in Legacy. That said, a cycle of "Scavenger" cards might drive up Fetchland prices a bit more, but these are just ideas that merit tinkering. Such cards could drive a new Extended Extended format, although many of them are effectively better than the entire Ravnica Dual cycle.

There is a card that is playable in 3 formats: Vintage, Legacy and Extended. It costs 75$.
If it will be playable in Vintage, Legacy, OverExtended and Extended, it will cost 75/3*4=100$.
Rough sketch and I don't say this will happend, but even a possibility of such nonsense scares the hell out of me.
FoW, Wasteland, Swords, etc. might not get reprinted. Tarmogoyf will unquestionably be.

-ktkenshinx-

[Nightmare]

The issue with all of your cards is that "Aggro Trop" "Symbiotic Trop" and "Scavenger Trop" will all be fine as Tropical Island 5-8.

[DragoFireheart]

Why doesn't Wizards simply remove the reprint policy? I don't see how they can attract more Legacy players without somehow making Legacy staples more easily obtainable at a reasonable price.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

FoW, Wasteland, Swords, etc. might not get reprinted. Tarmogoyf will unquestionably be.

-ktkenshinx-'Unquestionably' is a bit strong, unless they've out right said they're reprinting it.

[Versus]

The issue with all of your cards is that "Aggro Trop" "Symbiotic Trop" and "Scavenger Trop" will all be fine as Tropical Island 5-8.

Exactly. So then the only way to keep both formats in check would be to make these "strictly worse" duals playable only in this new format. That seems unlikely.

All that aside, I'm always taken aback at the mention of strictly worse counterparts to already existing Legacy staples. This often comes up here as a rational answer to open the format to newer players who may be hesitant to start due to the large overhead needed to build a decent deck. Maybe it's just me, but the last thing I would want to do is enter an arena holding a lesser weapon. If the other players are using FoW, duals, Wastes, ect, why would I want to jump in with anything but? I would never enter a race against four Vipers in a Camry. It's going to be hard enough for newer players to compete on level grounds, much less rolling up in shitboxes. Just sayin'.

[ktkenshinx]

The issue with all of your cards is that "Aggro Trop" "Symbiotic Trop" and "Scavenger Trop" will all be fine as Tropical Island 5-8.
The point was not that these cards were perfect examples of new Duals. The point was that it is possible to make Duals that are not functionally inferior to preexisting Duals in all situations. Besides, if Wizards is making a new format like this, they are essentially giving the finger to Legacy; they will not care too much about Tropical Islands 5-8 in the Legacy format.

Why doesn't Wizards simply remove the reprint policy? I don't see how they can attract more Legacy players without somehow making Legacy staples more easily obtainable at a reasonable price.
The updated Wizards reprint policy is here: http://www.wizards.com/magic/tcg/article.aspx?x=magic/products/reprintpolicy
It is now effectively set in stone, and it effectively screws Legacy and Vintage. This further supports the possibility of a new format.

All that aside, I'm always taken aback at the mention of strictly worse counterparts to already existing Legacy staples. This often comes up here as a rational answer to open the format to newer players who may be hesitant to start due to the large overhead needed to build a decent deck. Maybe it's just me, but the last thing I would want to do is enter an arena holding a lesser weapon. If the other players are using FoW, duals, Wastes, ect, why would I want to jump in with anything but? I would never enter a race against four Vipers in a Camry. It's going to be hard enough for newer players to compete on level grounds, much less rolling up in shitboxes. Just sayin'.
Wizards prints cards for other formats, not just for Legacy. Reprinting the Ranvica Shocklands, for instance, would suck for Legacy players, but would open up all sorts of options for Standard (including driving up Fetchland prices). New Duals would only need to benefit at least one format (T2, Extended, Extended Extended, Legacy, Vintage) for them to be printable.

One point that is clear: if Wizards makes a new format, it is a huge snub to Legacy players. All discussion of that hypothetical format should consider it as a snub and as nothing less. Consequently, comments about cards that are "Bad for Legacy" or "Strictly inferior to Legacy equivalents" are totally irrelevant. They do not need to be good for Legacy for them to benefit the new format, as well as T2 and Extended.

-ktkenshinx-

[Trans Am]

FoW is a staple that is simply un-needed in the new format.

Im glad you understand the ins and outs of an unknown format so well, that you can definitely say for sure what it needs and what it doesnt before it even exists.

[dahcmai]

The big question is has anyone heard on whether or not we should even be having this conversation at all? So far, all I have heard is some random person with 1 post made this statement on Salvation and that was it.

It makes some sort of sense and then again, they almost have no reason to support something like that. Not like Magic online cares and that's the thing they push the hardest. I'd just like to have some sort of actual concrete evidence there's anything to this rumor at all other than "this guy posted it".

[Aggro_zombies]

The big question is has anyone heard on whether or not we should even be having this conversation at all? So far, all I have heard is some random person with 1 post made this statement on Salvation and that was it.

It makes some sort of sense and then again, they almost have no reason to support something like that. Not like Magic online cares and that's the thing they push the hardest. I'd just like to have some sort of actual concrete evidence there's anything to this rumor at all other than "this guy posted it".
The thread on Salvation was locked earlier due to lack of evidence, if that helps you make up your mind.

[Trans Am]

#52 posts later and this thread hasnt been closed why ?


The big question is has anyone heard on whether or not we should even be having this conversation at all? So far, all I have heard is some random person with 1 post made this statement on Salvation and that was it.


The thread on Salvation was locked earlier due to lack of evidence, if that helps you make up your mind.

I dont know. It seems the Mods/Admins here are more concerned with nitpicking capitalization.

[ktkenshinx]

I dont know. It seems the Mods/Admins here are more concerned with nitpicking capitalization.
You have posted 4 times on this forum, twice in this thread to offer exceedingly unhelpful contributions. There is nothing wrong with this thread; for the most part, conversation has been both productive and revealing. If Wizards employees and adminstrators are reading it, then they will learn either a) Legacy player impressions of their intended format or b) Legacy players impressions of a potential format that does not yet exist. The Salvation thread was closed because after over 700 posts, the thread was running in circles, with players literally repeating posts half a page above them. This forum has a higher standard of writing (for the most part).

-ktkenshinx-

[Trans Am]

You have posted 4 times on this forum, twice in this thread to offer exceedingly unhelpful contributions. There is nothing wrong with this thread; for the most part, conversation has been both productive and revealing. If Wizards employees and adminstrators are reading it, then they will learn either a) Legacy player impressions of their intended format or b) Legacy players impressions of a potential format that does not yet exist. The Salvation thread was closed because after over 700 posts, the thread was running in circles, with players literally repeating posts half a page above them. This forum has a higher standard of writing (for the most part).

-ktkenshinx-

You have posted 137 times on this forum, nine in this thread to offer exceedingly pretentious and convoluted contributions. What exactly has been productive here and what exactly has really been revealed ? That many people here fell for a massive troll post on another website ? That you can talk out your ass for hours and still not say anything ? You dont like UW Tempo too do you ?

If WotC wanted to know such information about a new format, why wouldnt they just post a poll on their website like they normally do ? And was the other thread closed due to lack of evidence or like you say, due to people repeating posts ? I can tell you which of those two makes more sense to me, but I only have the balls to speak for myself not everyone and everything as a whole. You act like you know everything, but the more you say, it shows you really know nothing at all.

Warning for flaming. If you think a topic is dumb, don't add to it. Pretty simple. - Bardo

[Koby]

I think that this discussion is rather stimulating, and at least a departure from "remove the reserve list" and "ban X card this month". If nothing else, it gives an opportunity for the community to weigh in on how a new format (real or not) would effect Legacy popularity, the frequency of Legacy tournaments, and whether that action will lead to better Eternal formats seeing high-level support (think more GPs, PTQs, etc).

That in itself is nothing insignificant, even if it is a wild tangent.

[ktkenshinx]

You have posted 137 times on this forum, nine in this thread to offer exceedingly pretentious and convoluted contributions. What exactly has been productive here and what exactly has really been revealed ? That many people here fell for a massive troll post on another website ? That you can talk out your ass for hours and still not say anything ? You dont like UW Tempo too do you ?

If WotC wanted to know such information about a new format, why wouldnt they just post a poll on their website like they normally do ? And was the other thread closed due to lack of evidence or like you say, due to people repeating posts ? I can tell you which of those two makes more sense to me, but I only have the balls to speak for myself not everyone and everything as a whole. You act like you know everything, but the more you say, it shows you really know nothing at all.
I see no reason for your hostility. This is a friendly conversation about an interesting possibility. Your entire post is directed at me as a person and poster, not to this thread and the topic at hand. If you disagree about this thread's relevance, and you clearly seem to disagree, then you need not post at all.

Ruckus: I agree that this thread is better than most of the other theoertical, speculative ones on the "Format and Article Discussion" subforum. Sure, it has minimal proof, but speculation about this hypothetical format is no worse than speculation about banning/unbanning cards. If nothing else, it was a nice change of pace from the usual.

-ktkenshinx-

[Trans Am]

*yawn*

Nothing was hostile on my end. If it was hostile, it would have read something like:


Why do the **** with anime avatars always seem to be the ones who obnoxiously sign each post with their username like anyone actually gives a fuck or was unsure who wrote it ? Wait, dont answer that, just shut the fuck up.

Personally, I would rather discuss WotC legalizing and seriously supporting a non-online pauper/peasant format, if I had to. And by "minimal proof" you meant virtually zero, right ? The difference between this and speculation about banning/unbanning, is that there is a possibility some of the cards mentioned might actually get banned or unbanned. This is a lot closer to speculating on cards that dont actually exist, but some people would just like them to.

And another. I don't see you lasting long here. Two day temp-ban. - Bardo


No, permaban. -zilla

[majikal]

I think this thread has run its course.

[Vacrix]

How many people have thriving metagames in their area, out of curiosity? Mine is rather stale. FNM's turned from Legacy to Standard, and there hardly ever even 20 man tournaments in my area. Maybe this Eternal Format would draw more players into Legacy by moving them closer to the Legacy cardpool? Then maybe I can start playing every weekend again.

[Pastorofmuppets]

Why do people keep saying that they want pauper on paper? Isn't pauper a very stagnant format?

[Koby]

The same people who want to play Paper Pauper - don't want to face Storm Combo decks.

They just end up playing random ban lists at every different store there is no central authority on how to play. It's mostly a way to introduce new players into constructed.

[mchainmail]

How many people have thriving metagames in their area, out of curiosity? Mine is rather stale. FNM's turned from Legacy to Standard, and there hardly ever even 20 man tournaments in my area. Maybe this Eternal Format would draw more players into Legacy by moving them closer to the Legacy cardpool? Then maybe I can start playing every weekend again.

Our area has a good dozen players who have tier 1-3 decks and play regularly, if not more. And we're in Bethlehem, PA, which is neither a rich area nor extremely urban.

[2Rach]

I think Legacy being cheaper long-term compared to Standard was true a year/and a half ago, but definitely not since this boom. A bayou you could get for around $20 and now it's $35+. Everything else has seen a similar increase. This old adage is long incorrect.

[jrsthethird]

Our area has a good dozen players who have tier 1-3 decks and play regularly, if not more. And we're in Bethlehem, PA, which is neither a rich area nor extremely urban.

We have more than a dozen; I can name a dozen off the top of my head without considering anyone from Lehigh.

I'd say it's almost twice that.

We have monthly local tournaments, and as far as larger ones go, we always have at least 6 people attending the monthly tournaments in Vestal, NY, which is 2.5 hours away. I'm sure more people would go if they weren't going to PTQ's on the same day.

[Nightmare]

How many people have thriving metagames in their area, out of curiosity? Mine is rather stale. FNM's turned from Legacy to Standard, and there hardly ever even 20 man tournaments in my area. Maybe this Eternal Format would draw more players into Legacy by moving them closer to the Legacy cardpool? Then maybe I can start playing every weekend again.

Syracuse has an ebb and flow of players, but we consistently have about 16 at our weekly events and travel quite a bit (although no one travels like the VA guys). While our ratings are rather inbred (we trade the same 100 points between around 25 different players over and over again), I would consider our metagame one of the most competitive in the country - any of the regular players have an honest shot at top 8 in a given large event.

[quadibloc]

Why doesn't Wizards simply remove the reprint policy? I don't see how they can attract more Legacy players without somehow making Legacy staples more easily obtainable at a reasonable price.

This has already been discussed extensively, but basically it's this: if Wizards reprints any really important cards from the Reserved List, as opposed to tame ones like Phyrexian Negator, they fear the sky will fall in; people will see Magic cards as just pieces of cardboard instead of rare valuable collectibles, and the game will perish.


About the onetime expense vs. over time: Recently I did a quick mental addition of how much I spend on magic cards, per year. After adding up all the little draft expenses, prereleases, tournament fees, it came to 500$. I was stunned: I had no idea how I got that money, and why I was spending it. The answer came shortly after: it was fun, and it never seems like that much spread out over so long.

I have a feeling that this is one of the two reasons that Standard is so alluring to new players. The first reason is that everyone plays it, the second reason is that the perceived cost is so low.Precisely. The argument that "if you can afford to play Standard, you can still afford to play Legacy" doesn't make sense because no one would really think that playing that much just to play a CCG really makes sense.

But people can end up accidentally spending more than they intend to.


A new From the Vaults: Staples set could bring back some old school Legacy cards into the new format, but not impact preexisting Extended and Standard decks. This would simply be a policy change on Wizards part, and as we know, they are perfectly alright with making policy changes.Sets like From the Vaults and Duel Decks don't affect format legality at all. Not only don't the cards in them become Standard-legal if they aren't already, but they also don't become Extended-legal if they aren't already. So, if the new format starts at Mercadian Masques, the only way to bring a card from before that into the new format would be to include it in a current set sold in boosters - thus making it Standard-legal as well.

Yes, a policy change is certainly possible, but this would be so major that I think it would be very unlikely. Also, a card that was better than Foil, but not as good as Force of Will, might not necessarily be so unbalancing that it couldn't be safely introduced into Standard.


If Wizards made a new format, Extended Extended/Overextended/Esquared/Double E/whatever, then that would already be a huge slap in the face for Legacy. In this alternate history, Wizards' unwillingness to do something for the Legacy format has no bearing whatsoever on their willingness to do it for a new format. Indeed they would have every incentive to support this new format, whatever that would take.
That said, FoW is a staple that is simply un-needed in the new format. There is nothing that including FoW accomplishes that a new and relatively modest Banned (or even Restricted) list would not accomplish. Hypothetical arguments about a potential FTV set are all predicated on the necessity of FoW and other staples, a necessity that is completely unproven.Given that it's an Eternal format, and Vintage and Legacy are given names that mean "something old", but with strong positive connotations, I think that the actual name of the new format might end up being something like "Heritage".

And they're not trying to slap Legacy in the face. They simply dare not reprint the cards Legacy needs, for reasons that have nothing directly to do with Legacy.

I strongly suspect that the new format would have a banned list instead of a restricted list, and my guess is that Skullclamp, Aether Vial, and Sensei's Divining Top would all be on it, but Dark Ritual would not be. I would be inclined to prefer having Force of Will in the format, though, to having its combo possibilities stripped out by banning a lot of cards. Too many banned cards send a message that "we're letting you play with these sets, but not really".

However, banning everything that's banned in Legacy (except for cards not in the format, and cards that need to work with other cards not in the format) wouldn't be banning too many cards. And Worldgorger Dragon is banned in Legacy.

Is this likely to result, as some have feared, in a format with too many possibilities for combos? And is it the case that in such a format, counterspells keep things from getting too wild? Even if this is the case, it has seemed to me that you are likely to be right that there should be balancing elements already present, even though there is no Force of Will in the format. And they could print that in the next Core Set as a Mythic if they really had to.

But are there other counters one could safely use on turn 1? Yes. There's Misdirection. And there's Foil; yes, it's more expensive than Force of Will in that application, but if that's what people need to use to keep from being flattened by an insane combo, they will use it. (On turn 1 or turn 2, before you have enough lands out there, you probably will have Islands in hand you haven't had the chance to play yet.)

And there's Counterspell, a nice economical general-purpose counter.

And there's Pact of Negation for later in the game, when you do have lands out there, but you don't happen to have enough of them untapped right now.

Except for Mana Drain and Force of Will, there is not a lot in the way of counters that had been driven from the game by the time of Mercadian Masques.

[DragoFireheart]

This has already been discussed extensively, but basically it's this: if Wizards reprints any really important cards from the Reserved List, as opposed to tame ones like Phyrexian Negator, they fear the sky will fall in; people will see Magic cards as just pieces of cardboard instead of rare valuable collectibles, and the game will perish.



I don't buy that argument considering that everyones favorite super bear is going for $60+ even though he isn't in Standard anymore. I'm not asking Wizards to reprint Force of Will in every core set: just make a set that brings back most of the really good Legacy staples.

And I doubt the older cards would drop in value. Take a look at the various dual lands: even though they are the same in the game, the fact that some are from older sets makes them double the value of ones in new sets. The reprinting of Force of Will will not reduce the value of the old one since they are from different sets and collectors will still want them for their collection.

[FoolofaTook]

I think Legacy being cheaper long-term compared to Standard was true a year/and a half ago, but definitely not since this boom. A bayou you could get for around $20 and now it's $35+. Everything else has seen a similar increase. This old adage is long incorrect.

You buy your duals once and you are done. You buy the staples you know will be needed once and you're done. Then you add a few cards here and there. Legacy is still cheaper than Standard unless you plan to play Standard for a very limited timeframe.

The buy-in to competitive Legacy right now is under $1000 unless you want to play black. That's about as much as you pay for a good TV.

[Tacosnape]

I think Legacy being cheaper long-term compared to Standard was true a year/and a half ago, but definitely not since this boom. A bayou you could get for around $20 and now it's $35+. Everything else has seen a similar increase. This old adage is long incorrect.

I think it's still true. Some cards have -started out- in Standard recently booking $50-$70. The boom hasn't just affected Legacy. Underground Seas and Tarmogoyfs aren't all that much more expensive than Jace the Mind Sculptors started out. And Forces cost less, actually.

While we're on the subject, how much would reprinting Force of Will actually wreck various formats?

[ktkenshinx]

This has already been discussed extensively, but basically it's this: if Wizards reprints any really important cards from the Reserved List, as opposed to tame ones like Phyrexian Negator, they fear the sky will fall in; people will see Magic cards as just pieces of cardboard instead of rare valuable collectibles, and the game will perish.


I don't buy that argument considering that everyones favorite super bear is going for $60+ even though he isn't in Standard anymore. I'm not asking Wizards to reprint Force of Will in every core set: just make a set that brings back most of the really good Legacy staples.

And I doubt the older cards would drop in value. Take a look at the various dual lands: even though they are the same in the game, the fact that some are from older sets makes them double the value of ones in new sets. The reprinting of Force of Will will not reduce the value of the old one since they are from different sets and collectors will still want them for their collection.
You two are totally right in the economic implications of your statements. Unfortunately, Wizards just doesn't care. They have already been there and done that with the Reserved List, and it is now a closed issue. The good news is that quite a few Legacy staples are not on that list, although I admit that the new format would lose some important cards. One of the reasons that I believe the original post about this new format is the Reserved List changes. Why would they not alter it, knowing that so many players wanted it undone? Did they really care that much about collectors, to whom they had no legal obligation? Or was there some other trick up their sleeves? This new format might be that trick. Wizards could elegantly please both the collectors and their high value cards as well as the players who want to use older decks and strategies. Sure, they would snub a number of old and relevant sets (Urza's and Tempest most notably), but in the end, it would probably work out in Magic's favor.


Precisely. The argument that "if you can afford to play Standard, you can still afford to play Legacy" doesn't make sense because no one would really think that playing that much just to play a CCG really makes sense.

But people can end up accidentally spending more than they intend to.
The "Accidental spending" phenomenon is huge in Magic, especially with new players. I have a friend at college who just got into Magic, a smart guy majoring in economics and political science. We explained to him that the smart thing for him to do would be to learn the game, figure out what format he wanted to play, and then buy the format's staples. My friend absolutely understood this suggestion and the logic behind it, but he did not follow it. He bought, and continues to buy, booster boxes, packs, non-staple singles, etc. He has competitive decks and plays in legitimate tournaments across various formats, but he avoids serious investment. Why? Magic is a fun, COLLECTIBLE card game.

It is unfair to assume that all Magic players are rational economic agents. Most of them see a fun, flavorful, sick card and immediately want 4. Most of them have deck designs that are highly unviable in a tournament, but are damn fun to play in the kitchen with friends. Standard players, often being the youngest and most recent additions to the Magic community, are often effected by this phenomenon. They don't intend on spending over 1500 bucks on their random commons and uncommons, along with a bunch of unplayable rares, but in the end it happens anyway. Because of this economic propensity, Legacy will always have problems as a format.


And they're not trying to slap Legacy in the face. They simply dare not reprint the cards Legacy needs, for reasons that have nothing directly to do with Legacy.
While Wizards probably has nothing against this format, their Reserved List "changes" ended up being a powerful slap. Intent doesn't matter as much as results. The result was a lot of pissed off Legacy players. A ton of Legacy players petitioned really hard to get that lifted, both on this site and on others (not to mention emails, blog posts, letters, personal appeals, outside articles, etc.) The Reserved List has the most impact on the Legacy community, so we were its strongest opponents. Yet, Wizards chose collectors over players. They knew what the players wanted, and they chose not to act on our behalf. That is a stinging blow.

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I firmly believe that the Banned List is a critical component of this new format, and that D-Rit would not need to be banned. All of the current Extended banned cards, however, would. Affinity would be a monster in this new format, especially with its gains from the Alara block.

Tentatively, I would advise the following to be banned:

Entomb (On the play there are basically no answers to this. Especially the future D-Rit/Entomb/Death combo)
Aether Vial (Too ubiquitous. Would make aggro based strategies nuts, especially Affinity)
Skullclamp (rofl...Skullclamp...)
Sensei's Divining Top (Time constraints are bad. Countertop might also be too dominant for the new format)
Disciple of the Vault (Affinity already might be out of control. Wizards might want to minimize that dominance to avoid the 4 maindecked Oxidizes).

That would probably suffice to keep things in order. What are people's thoughts on all this? Economic incentives? Banned list? Slaps in the face? etc.?

-ktkenshinx-

[jrsthethird]

The buy-in to competitive Legacy right now is under $1000 unless you want to play black. That's about as much as you pay for a good TV.

Why black? You should mean blue....

CounterTop costs over $1300 to build from scratch.

[TooCloseToTheSun]

How many people have thriving metagames in their area, out of curiosity? Mine is rather stale. FNM's turned from Legacy to Standard, and there hardly ever even 20 man tournaments in my area. Maybe this Eternal Format would draw more players into Legacy by moving them closer to the Legacy cardpool? Then maybe I can start playing every weekend again.

I live in Platteville WI and we get at least 15 - 20 players at our weekly Legacy event.

[Xero]

If this is real, I think it might be more of a blow to Extended than Legacy. Extended is actually terrible now, while Legacy is more interesting. Now, if Wizards supports this format and goes back to totally ignoring Legacy, that would suck for the format.



Tentatively, I would advise the following to be banned:

Entomb (On the play there are basically no answers to this. Especially the future D-Rit/Entomb/Death combo)
Aether Vial (Too ubiquitous. Would make aggro based strategies nuts, especially Affinity)
Skullclamp (rofl...Skullclamp...)
Sensei's Divining Top (Time constraints are bad. Countertop might also be too dominant for the new format)
Disciple of the Vault (Affinity already might be out of control. Wizards might want to minimize that dominance to avoid the 4 maindecked Oxidizes).

That would probably suffice to keep things in order. What are people's thoughts on all this? Economic incentives? Banned list? Slaps in the face? etc.?

-ktkenshinx-

They need to ban a storm combo piece, like Dark Ritual, Mind's Desire, and/or Tendrils. I would hope that they woulldn't ban Vial or Top. Affinity is barely played in Extended now, and this hypothetical format is more powerful than Extended. Also, I think tribal decks need Vial to in order to compete with Zoo, which I think would be the obvious aggro deck in the format.

[cdr]

MTGSal finally locked the thread and admitted there was zero evidence anything was ever true about it in the first place. I have no clue why they let it run as long as they did, usually they're good about cleaning up unsubstantiated garbage.

[mchainmail]

Why black? You should mean blue....

CounterTop costs over $1300 to build from scratch.

Meh, I don't think $1300 is accurate, I mean, it depends a lot on build, but the SCG Orlando list is under $1000 on ApathyHouse (close to 1000 though) There are still options though.

[Aggro_zombies]

I think it's still true. Some cards have -started out- in Standard recently booking $50-$70. The boom hasn't just affected Legacy. Underground Seas and Tarmogoyfs aren't all that much more expensive than Jace the Mind Sculptors started out. And Forces cost less, actually.

While we're on the subject, how much would reprinting Force of Will actually wreck various formats?
It would be bad in Standard for as long as Bloodbraid Elf is still legal. Two-for-one-ing yourself just to stop half of your opponent's two-for-one seems so weak.

I'm not sure how good it would be in Extended. It doesn't do that much to Zoo, so I'm not sure the various Thopter and Depths decks would want it in the main.

It would increase availability in Legacy and maybe drive down the price of Merfolk for newer players, or at least make it easier to build for most people.

Nobody plays Vintage anyway.

If they print it in a Core Set, it won't have any effect on Block. Counters tend to be generally weak in Limited, even in such a bomb-heavy Limited as triple M10. Counters were okay there, but even then Negate and Cancel were the best, but you didn't really want to be in blue unless you had Sleep.

[DragoFireheart]

I can't believe no one has asked this yet. (Or at least I haven't seen anyone ask this).


Why doesn't Wizards print a paper version of their on-line Masters Edition? Non-foils that are printed specifically for Eternal format players to buy, similar to From the Vault?

They would not be reprinting them since these cards would still be part of their original set, but players would have easier access to older staples like duals lands. This would promote Legacy growth since new players could buy these packs in hopes of getting cards for their legacy deck (and maybe Vintage).

Wizards makes these and makes money will also not having to break their reprint policy.

Everyone wins.

[Aggro_zombies]

I can't believe no one has asked this yet. (Or at least I haven't seen anyone ask this).


Why doesn't Wizards print a paper version of their on-line Masters Edition? Non-foils that are printed specifically for Eternal format players to buy, similar to From the Vault?

They would not be reprinting them since these cards would still be part of their original set, but players would have easier access to older staples like duals lands. This would promote Legacy growth since new players could buy these packs in hopes of getting cards for their legacy deck (and maybe Vintage).

Wizards makes these and makes money will also not having to break their reprint policy.

Everyone wins.
Because Reserved List. The cards that people really want out of that (duals) wouldn't be there.

[DalkonCledwin]

I can't believe no one has asked this yet. (Or at least I haven't seen anyone ask this).


Why doesn't Wizards print a paper version of their on-line Masters Edition? Non-foils that are printed specifically for Eternal format players to buy, similar to From the Vault?

They would not be reprinting them since these cards would still be part of their original set, but players would have easier access to older staples like duals lands. This would promote Legacy growth since new players could buy these packs in hopes of getting cards for their legacy deck (and maybe Vintage).

Wizards makes these and makes money will also not having to break their reprint policy.

Everyone wins.

Basically what you are proposing is in fact a form of reprint.

Anything that prints old cards in newer form is in fact a reprint. The only way that they could get around the reprint policy right now, is one of two ways:

A.) They have several hundred copies of every card that people want to get that happens to be on the reserved list sitting around somewhere at Wizards of the Coast Headquarters, and they drop those cards into a new sets Booster Packs.

Or...

B.) They go onto Ebay or other Secondary Market Distributors of Cards and Buy up previously owned copies of cards on the Reserved List and then drop those cards into Booster Packs for a new set.

Either option is EXACTLY what probably happened during the Zendikar "Priceless Treasures" shenanigance(sp?).

[DragoFireheart]

Because Reserved List. The cards that people really want out of that (duals) wouldn't be there.

These wouldn't be reprints: they would not be part of a new set and they would not be legal in Standard, Extended, etc. Just Eternal legal packs. That's it. It would be no different than if Wizards started print of older pack sets like Tempest and Urza X.

The difference? They make money and make legacy more accessible while also proving they are not douches.

[DragoFireheart]

Basically what you are proposing is in fact a form of reprint.

Anything that prints old cards in newer form is in fact a reprint.


That's not what I am proposing. I am proposing they get the same exact prints they used for duals that they used for them way back 10+ years ago, print them, and then package them in packs that basically add more duals to the supply of current duals. They would not have the new boarders or anything of that sort: they would look exactly as they did when they were first printed.

They wouldn't be reprints, just adding more prints to the current supply. They do it in such a way that players now have a cheaper way to access the cards but also not over do it so the price drops.

[lordofthepit]

That's not what I am proposing. I am proposing they get the same exact prints they used for duals that they used for them way back 10+ years ago, print them, and then package them in packs that basically add more duals to the supply of current duals. They would not have the new boarders or anything of that sort: they would look exactly as they did when they were first printed.

They wouldn't be reprints, just adding more prints to the current supply. They do it in such a way that players now have a cheaper way to access the cards but also not over do it so the price drops.

I think that is by definition a reprint.

[xTrainx]

That's not what I am proposing. I am proposing they get the same exact prints they used for duals that they used for them way back 10+ years ago, print them, and then package them in packs that basically add more duals to the supply of current duals. They would not have the new boarders or anything of that sort: they would look exactly as they did when they were first printed.

They wouldn't be reprints, just adding more prints to the current supply. They do it in such a way that players now have a cheaper way to access the cards but also not over do it so the price drops.

I think that is by definition a reprint.

I lol'd.

@ Drago, he is right, that is, in essence what a reprint is. If they make more, they may not be changing frames or whatever, but they are still reprinting the cards.

[DragoFireheart]

I lol'd.

@ Drago, he is right, that is, in essence what a reprint is. If they make more, they may not be changing frames or whatever, but they are still reprinting the cards.

I guess I misunderstood. When I was thinking reprint, I thought of something like Wrath of God in the numerous sets or Birds of Paradise. I didn't think simply printing more of the exact same card to be "reprinting" it.

Fuck you WotC for your stupid reprint policy stifling Legacy growth!

[DalkonCledwin]

the definition of reprint taken from the mirrium webster dictionary is as follows:

Transitive Verb:
1: To print again : make a reprint of

Noun:
1: A reproduction of printed matter:
Examples:
a : A subsequent printing of a book already published that preserves the identical text of the previous printing
b : Offprint
c : Matter (as an article) that has appeared in print before

By this definition, if Wizards were to make a masters edition where in they were using the original printing sheets (if they still exist) to print things such as Dual Lands. These new print runs would in fact be a reprint as they are not from the original print run even though they utilize the original printing sheets to print them.

In fact in a way, these reprints could even be said to be officially sanctioned counterfeits of the originals, which in a way is what I think the reserved list is supposed to be insurance against.

[MMogg]

the definition of reprint taken from the mirrium webster dictionary is as follows:

Transitive Verb:
1: To print again : make a reprint of

Noun:
1: A reproduction of printed matter:
Examples:
a : A subsequent printing of a book already published that preserves the identical text of the previous printing
b : Offprint
c : Matter (as an article) that has appeared in print before

By this definition, if Wizards were to make a masters edition where in they were using the original printing sheets (if they still exist) to print things such as Dual Lands. These new print runs would in fact be a reprint as they are not from the original print run even though they utilize the original printing sheets to print them.

In fact in a way, these reprints could even be said to be officially sanctioned counterfeits of the originals, which in a way is what I think the reserved list is supposed to be insurance against.


The complete list of reserved cards appears at the end of this document. Reserved cards will never be printed again in a functionally identical form. A card is considered functionally identical to another card if it has the same card type, subtypes, abilities, mana cost, power, and toughness. No cards will be added to the reserved list in the future. No cards from the Mercadian Masques set and later sets will be reserved. In consideration of past commitments, however, no cards will be removed from this list. The exclusion of any particular card from the reserved list doesn't indicate that there are any plans to reprint that card.

They don't actually say "reprinted", they say "printed".

Source (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/TCG/Article.aspx?x=magic/products/reprintpolicy)

[jrsthethird]

The point of them sticking to the reserve list is to prevent further copies from entering the market. They do not have many lying around their offices (definitely some, but not enough to make a dent in the market). This is why the 'priceless treasures' would work. Doing it on any massive scale would not be possible (hence, why there was one treasure every 720 packs, and only 1st print run).

The reserve list states that the cards will not be reprinted, in ANY form. Stop arguing about it, it's not gonna happen.


Meh, I don't think $1300 is accurate, I mean, it depends a lot on build, but the SCG Orlando list is under $1000 on ApathyHouse (close to 1000 though) There are still options though.

Well...

4 FOW - $200
4 Goyf - $300
4 Hierarch - $80
4 Trop - $240

That's over $800 right there. add NO/Progenitus, the actual namesake combo, fetchlands, other duals, and you get pretty damn close.

[Jak]

They don't actually say "reprinted", they say "printed".

Source (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/TCG/Article.aspx?x=magic/products/reprintpolicy)

Dude...

[MMogg]

Dude...

LOL, I know. But if we're going to have a pointless discussion on semantics, it might as well be an accurate one. :tongue:

[Some Guy]

4 FOW - $200
4 Goyf - $300
4 Hierarch - $80
4 Trop - $240


It is my favorite when people just pull prices out of thin air. the following are based off of what I see on ebay often and not the highest ones I could possibly find somewhere.

4 FOW - $160
4 Goyf - $250
4 Hierarch - $65
4 Trop - $200

hrmm...... $820 vs $675. a $145 difference seems like it could get a lot of NO / PRO and fetches to me.

[quadibloc]

LOL, I know. But if we're going to have a pointless discussion on semantics, it might as well be an accurate one.Note, though, that the Reserved List, and your quote, are found within the Reprint Policy, not the Reserved List Policy.

[MMogg]

Note, though, that the Reserved List, and your quote, are found within the Reprint Policy, not the Reserved List Policy.

Still more semantics. How much clearer could the current policy be? Regardless which heading it's presented under, if you read the part I quoted, it's pretty transparent: no reserved cards will be printed, no cards will be added to the list nor removed. Pretty cut and dry.

Edit: I think the Reserved List/Reprint talk really needs to RIP. It's over. Done. Lost cause. Finito. 完了.

[Mictlantecuhtli]

The new format idea was talked about in the Magic Show (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/misc/19209_The_Magic_Show_186_Rise_of_the_Eldrazi_Limited_Overextended.html). For some reason Evan Erwin seemed too optimistic with the idea. He tried to explain why this would be a good idea but he then started talking nonsense about reprinting FoW and snow duals for the new format ... I guess he can always try and articulate a more logical opinion next week.

[DalkonCledwin]

They don't actually say "reprinted", they say "printed".

Source (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/TCG/Article.aspx?x=magic/products/reprintpolicy)

"We will not reprint anything on the reserved list again." is technically an identical statement to "Nothing on the reserved list will ever be printed again."

This is due to the fact that the technical definition of a reprint is to print something as a second or later edition printing. So technically beta cards were reprints of the alpha cards just as 10th edition cards are reprints of all previous versions of those cards.

[MMogg]

"We will not reprint anything on the reserved list again." is technically an identical statement to "Nothing on the reserved list will ever be printed again."

This is due to the fact that the technical definition of a reprint is to print something as a second or later edition printing. So technically beta cards were reprints of the alpha cards just as 10th edition cards are reprints of all previous versions of those cards.

I know that and you know that, but I wasn't the one posting dictionary definitions of "reprint" in order to find some loophole that they will print the cards again with the same printing plates. :tongue: I was only saying that the semantic argument over "reprint" in the discussion was pointless considering the policy used the verb "print", thereby making any kind of loophole-seeking analysis into the word "reprint" useless.

At this point I wish I had never said anything. I didn't know I would have to reply to this over and over.

[jrsthethird]

It is my favorite when people just pull prices out of thin air. the following are based off of what I see on ebay often and not the highest ones I could possibly find somewhere.

4 FOW - $160
4 Goyf - $250
4 Hierarch - $65
4 Trop - $200

hrmm...... $820 vs $675. a $145 difference seems like it could get a lot of NO / PRO and fetches to me.

That's fine, still 16/75 of a single deck is still more expensive than 3 Dredge decks.

I based my original post on the fact that people on this site were posting in threads saying that CounterTop decks costed $1400 to build. With ebay prices $1000 seems more reasonable. And my prices, while technically "out of thin air", were spot-on SCG prices, except the Trops, which are $80 apiece there (so I was a little generous). So don't ridicule me for pulling out bullshit prices where you can go to one of the most prominent MTG sites and see them backed up.

[DragoFireheart]

That's fine, still 16/75 of a single deck is still more expensive than 3 Dredge decks.

I based my original post on the fact that people on this site were posting in threads saying that CounterTop decks costed $1400 to build. With ebay prices $1000 seems more reasonable. And my prices, while technically "out of thin air", were spot-on SCG prices, except the Trops, which are $80 apiece there (so I was a little generous). So don't ridicule me for pulling out bullshit prices where you can go to one of the most prominent MTG sites and see them backed up.


Then why didn't you mention you got the pricing from SCGs?

[ktkenshinx]

This issue of pricing keeps coming up. Specifically, I think that players want Legacy to be cheaper than it is. If Legacy turns out to be affordable to the average Standard player, then Wizards really has no business making a new format because of economic reasons (economic reasons of the players, that is). If, however, Legacy is as expensive as people claim, then they might have every incentive to make a new format, just to make decks cheaper for your average Magic player.

I went to http://blacklotusproject.com/ to find the following card prices. This site uses eBay data to come up with card prices that are significantly cheaper than anything else on most websites. Therefore, the following should be considered pretty damn accurate. I will use conventional CounterTop cards as an example:

4 FoW (36.01) = 144.04
4 Tarmogoyf (60.55) = 242.2
4 Noble Hierarch (14.42) = 57.68
4 Tropical Island (49.44) = 197.76
4 Flooded Strand (14.41) = 57.64
4 Counterbalance (5.14) = 20.56
4 Sensei's Divining Top (5.40) = 21.6
CounterTop Deck Tota (Take 1)l = 741.48

Now at first glance, this might not appear so expensive. If we go back to previous pages, we might be tempted to compare this to Standard deck prices and say "man, those are almost the same!" Unfortunately, blacklotusproject's eBay averages are lower than most cards. If we also use blacklotusproject values for Jund cards (the number one Standard deck), we will find that Jund is substantially cheaper.

4 Bloodbraid Elf (3.48) = 13.92
2 Broodmate Dragon (4.10) = 8.20
4 Putrid Leech (.19) = .76
4 Siege-Gang Commander (1.88) = 7.52
4 Sprouting Thrinax (.61) = 2.44
4 Lightning Bolt (.81) = 3.24
4 Blightning (1.10) = 4.40
4 Maelstrom Pulse (16.18) = 64.72
4 Dragonskull Summit (7.62) = 30.48
4 Verdant Catacombs (9.20) = 36.80
4 Raging Ravine (3.72) = 14.88
Jund Deck Total = 187.36

Notice how I included virtually EVERY card from Jund in this sum, whereas I only included some expensive staples in the CounterTop list. Why? To show how outrageously much more Legacy costs compared to Standard. You might say "But Jund is not the most expensive deck! UW Control is WAY more expensive, so you should be comparing those lists." I agree that we should look at a UW control cost compared to a Jund/CounterTop one. So here we go:

4 Jace the Mind Sculptor (40.59) = 162.36
4 Day of Judgment (5.49) = 21.96
4 Path to Exile (4.59) = 18.36
4 Baneslayer Angel (40.73) = 162.92
2 Martial Coup (4.40) = 8.8
4 Glacial Fortress (5.78) = 23.12
4 Celestial Colonnade (3.49) = 13.96
2 Elspeth, Knight Errant (31.76) = 63.52
2 Arid Mesa (8.93) = 17.86
2 Scalding Tarn (8.30) = 16.6
UW Control Deck Total = 509.46

This is admittedly a lot closer to our CounterTop value. But, there is a problem here. The CounterTop list above did not include any other Fetchlands (Misty Rainforest, for instance) or Duals (Tundra and Savannah anyone?). If we did include these, the price would shoot up even further out of Standard range.

4 Misty Rainforest (8.57) = 34.28
2 Tundra (58.53) = 117.06
2 Savannah (41.01) = 82.02
CounterTop Deck Total (Take 2)= 974.84

It's those damn lands! Just by adding 8 more cards to our calculation, CounterTop almost reached double the price of UW Control.

In the end, I agree that Legacy is a great investment. The money you spend on Duals/FoW/Fetchlands will keep on giving no matter what deck you choose to play in the future. But the initial entry costs are incredibly steep. It's the same reason that people rent apartments over their lives for thousands more than they would spend if they just bought a house/condo in one lump sum. For the Standard player, individual card expenditure is low, but it must be repeated over a long period of time. For the Legacy player, individual card expenditure is high, but it only needs to happen once. It's a better investment, but only rational economic agents like investments, and Magic is hardly a game full of rational players.

-ktkenshinx-

[DragoFireheart]

However, Counter-top is not the only Tier-1 deck.

How about Merfolk? Goblins? Zoo?

[Puzzle]

However, Counter-top is not the only Tier-1 deck.

How about Merfolk? Goblins? Zoo?Why don't YOU tell us ?

[DragoFireheart]

Why don't YOU tell us ?


What is it you want me to tell you?

[Some Guy]

don't ridicule me for pulling out bullshit prices where you can go to one of the most EXPENSIVE MTG sites and see them backed up.

When people complain about high prices , usually they do not want to pay the absolute most they possibly can.

[ktkenshinx]

As you might imagine, Goblins, Zoo, and Merfolk are cheaper than CounterTop. In the interest of time, I am not going to post a pricing of Goblins and Zoo at this time. Merfolk is another matter. With Merfolk appearing more consistently in the Top 8 of the SCG events than any other deck, this might be the best analog to Jund that Legacy can offer (at least in terms of Prevalence). I will consider the Merfolk list played by Michael Brady at SCG Orlando, as it is a good representation of a standard Merfolk list, and it does not include Tarmogoyf.

4 Aether Vial (8.52) = 34.08
4 FoW (36.01) = 144.04
4 Daze (1.47) = 5.88
4 Lord of Atlantis (2.32) = 9.28
4 Standstill (6.57) = 26.28
4 Merrow Reejerey (1.11) = 4.44
3 Umezawa's Jitte (17.59) = 52.77
4 Wasteland (20.04) = 80.16
4 Mutavault (10.25) = 41
Merfolk Deck Total = 249.45

Way, way cheaper than CounterTop, and also way cheaper than UW Control. This deck is probably about the same as Naya Lightsaber in Standard, and only slightly more than Jund and RDW.

But this brings us back to my initial appraisal of Legacy a few pages back. While players can definitely afford to play some decks (if not others), they choose not to for other reasons. Those reasons are uneffected by the actual value of decks, cards, and format staples. There are other problems with format perception and player perception that must be keeping players away from the format. Goblins is cheaper than even Merfolk, and Dredge is cheaper than both. These are both strong decks in Legacy, and both are well within the price range of your average player. Standard players either know this and don't care, or don't know this and don't care to find out the truth. In either situation, Legacy gets put in a bad position.

-ktkenshinx-

[jrsthethird]

Then why didn't you mention you got the pricing from SCGs?

Because I did, in fact, pull them out of thin air. I just have a good hold on what SCG's prices on staples are, and my guesses were 75% correct.


When people complain about high prices , usually they do not want to pay the absolute most they possibly can.

Just a reference point. I would never buy from SCG, but I use their prices as a guideline for trades and stuff since it is a prominent site that other people can relate to.


CounterTop Deck Total (Take 2)= 974.84

Even with bottom-of-the-barrel prices like that the deck still comes to about $1000. My point still holds.

[quadibloc]

He tried to explain why this would be a good idea but he then started talking nonsense about reprinting FoW and snow duals for the new format ... I guess he can always try and articulate a more logical opinion next week.The new format, of course, doesn't need snow duals or any other duals closer to the original duals than those we already have; i.e., those in Ravnica. After all, the whole idea of the new format is to get away from having to do something that would go against the Reprint Policy.

However, Force of Will is not on the Reserved List; in fact, it wasn't even on the Reserved List back when a lot of uncommons were included in the original 1999 policy. Reprinting Force of Will, not in Duel Decks so people can get copies, but in the next Core Set, so that its format legality is changed, is something that at least could be relevant to the new format. This is because some people have voiced concerns that with the card pool a Masques-forward format would have, it might not be as playable as would be desired, but instead would be too combo-heavy. It's been suggested that Force of Will is very important in keeping this sort of thing in check in the Legacy format, and so the new format would suffer from its absence.

[DragoFireheart]

What would the new format honestly do besides make a cheaper Legacy clone?

Instead of old duals we would likely use shockland duals. Counter-top would still be quite powerful since most of the pieces for it are from the newer sets (minus original dual lands). Hell, Natural Order isn't on the reserved list.

I have a theory of something that "could" happen:

Since the new format would be "cheaper", there would be a rush to grab the shocklands, causing them to go up in value. If the new Legacy becomes popular enough, some people may sell off their old duals to quickly stock up on new duals. The artificial increase in supply of the old duals would cause their value to go down since there is less demand for them. Meanwhile, the new duals would go up in value.

This new format could cause opposite of what collectors want: their older cards to retain value.

I know what I will be doing: watching closely to see if there is any truth to this theory and start buying those shocklands to make a profit (and for my own decks).

[2Rach]

You buy your duals once and you are done. You buy the staples you know will be needed once and you're done. Then you add a few cards here and there. Legacy is still cheaper than Standard unless you plan to play Standard for a very limited timeframe.

The buy-in to competitive Legacy right now is under $1000 unless you want to play black. That's about as much as you pay for a good TV.
This is bull***. Unless you're stupid or lazy you have plenty of time to flip standard cards at their prime or before they hit their post-rotation bottom. You don't lose as much as you think.

There's also the fact that people who get good can just go infinite much easier because there are many more tournaments.


I think it's still true. Some cards have -started out- in Standard recently booking $50-$70. The boom hasn't just affected Legacy. Underground Seas and Tarmogoyfs aren't all that much more expensive than Jace the Mind Sculptors started out. And Forces cost less, actually.
Nothing ever hit $50-70. Jace was around 30-35 at the prerelease and pre-ordered for less for a bit before that. Baneslayer was around $15-25 at prerelease time. The highest something's gotten recently is in the low 50s unless people don't give a damn and buy BSs at $60. And those are only two playsets in a deck with $40+ pricetags and only for a specific deck. In Legacy, most of the decks have 3-4+ playsets of $40+ cards and even the commons/uncommons add up to a nice amount.

[ktkenshinx]

What would the new format honestly do besides make a cheaper Legacy clone?

Instead of old duals we would likely use shockland duals. Counter-top would still be quite powerful since most of the pieces for it are from the newer sets (minus original dual lands). Hell, Natural Order isn't on the reserved list.

I have a theory of something that "could" happen:

Since the new format would be "cheaper", there would be a rush to grab the shocklands, causing them to go up in value. If the new Legacy becomes popular enough, some people may sell off their old duals to quickly stock up on new duals. The artificial increase in supply of the old duals would cause their value to go down since there is less demand for them. Meanwhile, the new duals would go up in value.

This new format could cause opposite of what collectors want: their older cards to retain value.

I know what I will be doing: watching closely to see if there is any truth to this theory and start buying those shocklands to make a profit (and for my own decks).
There is one factor that you do not include in this analysis. Shocklands are not on the reserved list. This is critical for the price and potential price. Wizards could easily reprint the Shocklands in M11 or M12 (At latest) to support the new format. This would greatly increase supply, but it would be an increase that is relative to the demand. As such, their prices would remain roughly the same, give or take a slight increase or decrease in value. Indeed, Wizards would probably initiate a new format with the reprinting of these dual lands and, perhaps, even the fetchlands.

Comparing the Shocklands to the Conditional Lands (the M10 CIPT lands), the two present unique advantages and disadvantages. You can fetch shocklands, but they hurt a lot. You can play them without other lands in play, but they deal damage. The CIPT lands can't be fetched, but they also don't cause any damage at all. Reprinting the Shocklands in M11 would alter the Standard enviornment, especially if they were reprinted alongside the M10 lands.

Overall, the reprintability of Shocklands is critical in their potential price. If a new format came into being, Wizards would almost assuredly a) reprint the Shocklands or b) print new duals. Given the circumstances, it is far more likely that they will reprint Shocklands rather than printing new lands.

-ktkenshinx-

[DragoFireheart]

There is one factor that you do not include in this analysis. Shocklands are not on the reserved list. This is critical for the price and potential price. Wizards could easily reprint the Shocklands in M11 or M12 (At latest) to support the new format. This would greatly increase supply, but it would be an increase that is relative to the demand. As such, their prices would remain roughly the same, give or take a slight increase or decrease in value. Indeed, Wizards would probably initiate a new format with the reprinting of these dual lands and, perhaps, even the fetchlands.

Thing is, these reprints would be available to Standard, Extended and Legacy-lite. Even with more put into the supply, they WILL go up in value if Legacy-lite is created.

In either case, old duals would go down in value as Legacy-lite could become more popular than Legacy.




Comparing the Shocklands to the Conditional Lands (the M10 CIPT lands), the two present unique advantages and disadvantages. You can fetch shocklands, but they hurt a lot. You can play them without other lands in play, but they deal damage. The CIPT lands can't be fetched, but they also don't cause any damage at all. Reprinting the Shocklands in M11 would alter the Standard enviornment, especially if they were reprinted alongside the M10 lands.

Overall, the reprintability of Shocklands is critical in their potential price. If a new format came into being, Wizards would almost assuredly a) reprint the Shocklands or b) print new duals. Given the circumstances, it is far more likely that they will reprint Shocklands rather than printing new lands.

-ktkenshinx-


- I don't care for the Shocklands since they hurt quite a bit (fetching a shockland is a Lightning Bolt to your face). Aggro decks like Zoo would become better in this format since everyone is likely to be killing themselves on Shocklands.

[Nihil Credo]

This is bull***. Unless you're stupid or lazy you have plenty of time to flip standard cards at their prime or before they hit their post-rotation bottom. You don't lose as much as you think.

There's also the fact that people who get good can just go infinite much easier because there are many more tournaments.

But that's exactly the point, isn't it? Time is a resource, and while Eternal formats don't offer the same rewards of Constructed, they also don't financially punish you for not spending significant amounts of time bartering and haggling.

If you drop by the local nerd-hole every other afternoon anyway (or grind MODO six hours a day) then that's not a very enticing trade-off, but a good chunk of the Eternal crowd is composed precisely of the kind of people that, for whatever reason, only show up every couple of weeks at best. Or that often need, or choose, to take a months-long break from Magic. They may have as much or, often, more money than the Standard players, but without also spending the same amount of time the cost for them to always have a Tier 1 deck available would skyrocket.

[General_Norris]

4 Aether Vial (8.52) = 34.08
4 FoW (36.01) = 144.04
4 Daze (1.47) = 5.88
4 Lord of Atlantis (2.32) = 9.28
4 Standstill (6.57) = 26.28
4 Merrow Reejerey (1.11) = 4.44
3 Umezawa's Jitte (17.59) = 52.77
4 Wasteland (20.04) = 80.16
4 Mutavault (10.25) = 41
Merfolk Deck Total = 249.45-

Let's point something very importat: The Force of Will playset makes up for more than half of the price of the deck. 120 dollars for a slightly subpar deck is very reasonable.

[2Rach]

But that's exactly the point, isn't it? Time is a resource, and while Eternal formats don't offer the same rewards of Constructed, they also don't financially punish you for not spending significant amounts of time bartering and haggling.

If you drop by the local nerd-hole every other afternoon anyway (or grind MODO six hours a day) then that's not a very enticing trade-off, but a good chunk of the Eternal crowd is composed precisely of the kind of people that, for whatever reason, only show up every couple of weeks at best. Or that often need, or choose, to take a months-long break from Magic. They may have as much or, often, more money than the Standard players, but without also spending the same amount of time the cost for them to always have a Tier 1 deck available would skyrocket.
But we're not talking about the Eternal crowd here. We want more support and more people to get into Legacy. This means a different crowd, the Standard guys and maybe the casual guys. The people in it we don't need to talk about, but the people who might not have the same cash flow or the same habits will be the people we're going for. And for them, it's not as good as Standard is.

EDIT:
And if it does get more popular/support, that just increases the barrier by increasing the value of the staples regardless if they're a better investment than hyped up Standard chase rares.

[ktkenshinx]

But we're not talking about the Eternal crowd here. We want more support and more people to get into Legacy. This means a different crowd, the Standard guys and maybe the casual guys. The people in it we don't need to talk about, but the people who might not have the same cash flow or the same habits will be the people we're going for. And for them, it's not as good as Standard is.

EDIT:
And if it does get more popular/support, that just increases the barrier by increasing the value of the staples regardless if they're a better investment than hyped up Standard chase rares.
The crowd change is critical. Currently, the Extended format is losing popularity. Legacy is growing slightly in popularity, and Standard is, of course, through the roof in attendance. A new format would attract a huge crowd of players:

1. Legacy players who do not have enough cards to play all the decks they want.
2. Extended players who are tired of their shrinking and under-supported format.
3. Standard players who are looking to expand into new territory
4. Casual players, many of whom play decks full of post MM cards (2000 was around the year Magic started getting popular).

This is a large demographic of Magic players, and one worth Wizards' attention. It is possible that the new format would alienate dedicated Legacy players, as well as Vintage players and hardcore Standard players. But Wizards could easily use initial momentum coupled with a good core set (M11 reprints could be awesome) to drive the format and get players interested and involved.

As to prices, anhytime that a Magic market can be regulated by reprinting, prices will not be too much of a problem. A new format would be around for the long run, and reprinting is a Macro-solution to a price problem. Shocklands is a good example of this. Sure, they would go up in price, but the difference between 9 and 19 dollars would not be too serious, especially if in-game mechanisms kept their prevalence in check. That is to say, aggro decks would LOVE to play against Fetchland/Shockland decks: free lightning bolts are good, last time I checked. They might initially spike, but would likely level out in the 10-20 range once people realized their restrictions. Then there is always the snow-dual option (although these would be wildly expensive unless they were uncommon).

-ktkenshinx-

[General_Norris]

I actually quitted Magic when Extended started to rotate faster. Do you think that is what is killing Extended?

[DragoFireheart]

Snow Dual Lands?

[Aggro_zombies]

I actually quitted Magic when Extended started to rotate faster. Do you think that is what is killing Extended?
It's probably less that and more that Extended tends to stagnate very rapidly once the season starts. There's also the fact that there are two obviously best strategies; Thopter Foundry and Dark Depths (or some combination) on the one hand and some iteration of Zoo on the other. It's very hard to break the stranglehold of these two decks with a more limited card pool, but it doesn't help that interesting strategies are being taken out of the format by rotations. If anything, rotations are the closest thing we'll get to change in the format; Wizards has pushed creatures so hard that Zoo is unlikely to be bad anytime soon, and the control decks are only really viable because of their combo elements, most of which won't rotate for a while yet. At least Legacy has the appearance of being wide open because sometimes the Tier II decks win, but that doesn't happen nearly as often in Extended (as far as I can tell).

This new format may also stagnate rather quickly, but that's just what happens when the best strategies never leave the format. Once they're discovered, they get played.

[mogote]

As you might imagine, Goblins, Zoo, and Merfolk are cheaper than CounterTop. In the interest of time, I am not going to post a pricing of Goblins and Zoo at this time. Merfolk is another matter. With Merfolk appearing more consistently in the Top 8 of the SCG events than any other deck, this might be the best analog to Jund that Legacy can offer (at least in terms of Prevalence). I will consider the Merfolk list played by Michael Brady at SCG Orlando, as it is a good representation of a standard Merfolk list, and it does not include Tarmogoyf.

4 Aether Vial (8.52) = 34.08
4 FoW (36.01) = 144.04
4 Daze (1.47) = 5.88
4 Lord of Atlantis (2.32) = 9.28
4 Standstill (6.57) = 26.28
4 Merrow Reejerey (1.11) = 4.44
3 Umezawa's Jitte (17.59) = 52.77
4 Wasteland (20.04) = 80.16
4 Mutavault (10.25) = 41
Merfolk Deck Total = 249.45

Way, way cheaper than CounterTop, and also way cheaper than UW Control. This deck is probably about the same as Naya Lightsaber in Standard, and only slightly more than Jund and RDW.
Your calculation is slightly off. The correct total amount should be 397.93 which still is a good $100 cheaper than UW Control but more than doubles Jund's price.

[Octopusman]

My thoughts are that I need to sell everything pre-masques block and say goodbye to Legacy and any hopes of playing Vintage.

[Lothian]

My thoughts are that I need to sell everything pre-masques block and say goodbye to Legacy and any hopes of playing Vintage.

Ok, I'm ready to offload you from that unbearable burden

Sell me your now worthless duals and moxen half-price.

What would I do to save your day mate...

[SpikeyMikey]

When people complain about high prices , usually they do not want to pay the absolute most they possibly can.


But that's exactly the point, isn't it? Time is a resource, and while Eternal formats don't offer the same rewards of Constructed, they also don't financially punish you for not spending significant amounts of time bartering and haggling.



Like Nihil says here, time is a resource. So you go to Ebay, you put in a bid, you wait 7 days for the auction to finish, find out that you got sniped at the last minute, rinse and repeat. Eventually, you get your cards for 75% of the price you'd pay at SCG, but you wasted 4 or 5 hours of time searching auctions for low prices, bidding, watching the cards, etc. I don't know about the rest of you, but I make around 16 bucks an hour at both of my jobs, so I'm calling 4 hours of my time a $64 investement. Because otherwise, I could've just spent those wasted hours working and kept the extra. Because those low prices that people are quoting as the best prices you can get on EBay certainly aren't buy it now prices. You're talking weeks or months to get anything at those prices.

[kariido]

So, the latest episode of the Magic Show practically confirms that Extended+ or "Overextended" is being seriously considered by Wizards and that it will most likely begin at Mercadian Masques.

If they want to create a new eternal format they should listen more closely to what players want. They do want Legacy but without the ridiculous prices. A Neo-Legacy format with all the reserve list cards banned would have a larger card pool then the proposed "Overextended", hence more potential for variability in decks, and it would keep the prices of decks within reasonable bounds since Wizards can essentially reprint any card they deem to be in demand.

[DuxDucis]

The Magic Show is hardly the gospel truth. He is probably working off the same information we have.

If they listened to players we probably wouldn't even be talking about a new format, we would be celebrating the fall of the Reserved List.

[Some Guy]

Like Nihil says here, time is a resource. So you go to Ebay, you put in a bid, you wait 7 days for the auction to finish, find out that you got sniped at the last minute, rinse and repeat. Eventually, you get your cards for 75% of the price you'd pay at SCG, but you wasted 4 or 5 hours of time searching auctions for low prices, bidding, watching the cards, etc. I don't know about the rest of you, but I make around 16 bucks an hour at both of my jobs, so I'm calling 4 hours of my time a $64 investement. Because otherwise, I could've just spent those wasted hours working and kept the extra. Because those low prices that people are quoting as the best prices you can get on EBay certainly aren't buy it now prices. You're talking weeks or months to get anything at those prices.

Yes , I spent an hour every day looking for new porn and masturbating to it , should I be getting paid for that ? sure time is a resource , but that doesnt mean shit if you are not getting paid for it. if you are not going to spend your time wisely and try to look for better or cheaper deals , then you deserve to pay more for being lazy. but when you do pay more for that item , it makes the other dealers raise their price on that item to match what you just overpaid for it. spending 4 hours doing nothing at home gets you paid $0 and spending 4 hours on ebay to save $20 on cards also gets you paid $0 , however by spending 4 hours to save $20 , thats close enough to making $5 an hour. and yes , ebay has lots of cheap buy it now prices , you just have to have vigilance and cant be tapped out when you see them.

[lordofthepit]

Yes , I spent an hour every day looking for new porn and masturbating to it , should I be getting paid for that ?

"I can sell out Madison Square Garden masturbating." - Mike Tyson

[ramanujan]

Good Afternoon,

I am getting pretty tired of this. This is a bad idea. The people that want this format don't really want it anyway. What happens when misdirection hits 70 dollars and ports are 65. Please try to understand this simple point, great magic cards in popular formats are expensive. Here is the best piece of advice I can give and I have given it before. Buy in to the format that you love. Feel accomplishment when you put together a sick legacy deck, knowing that you are slinging some of the best cards of magics long history. Give up restaurants for a while, lose weight, learn to really cook good food (This will help you throughout your life), and acquire a killer deck. I promise that you will be happier. Perhaps you will realize that it is a slap in the face to everyone that has gone through the journey to ask for the rules to be bent for you.

I bought duals for under 10 bucks a few years ago. Last month I purchased the remaining duals to finish my 40 for 450 dollars. I invest in what I enjoy. Magic is a labor of love. If you don't want to invest in legacy, fine, go play standard, draft, sealed, extended, EDH, pauper, block, packwars, cube, mental, 250, type 4, creature feature, singleton standard, cyos, Mortal Combat (Ames, Iowa format), and let the people who really care about the format enjoy it for what it is alone. Don't mess with our format.

This is a response to the real issue here.

-Peace

[quadibloc]

Perhaps you will realize that it is a slap in the face to everyone that has gone through the journey to ask for the rules to be bent for you.

I bought duals for under 10 bucks a few years ago.We just want the chance to start our own journey, with cards that can be bought for under 10 bucks now, when we've started playing - if all we're asking for is the new format.

It's those who say a new format isn't enough, and insist on having the original duals reprinted that want the rules to be bent for them, slapping the faces of the people who were there before. Even if I wouldn't phrase it that way, because they don't realize what they're asking for.

[ramanujan]

I'll take how to misrepresent a quote for a thousand Alex.

The point is that I will buy. I don't care if the current market value is 10 or 70, I intend on using the underground sea to good effect. It is worth it. The actual cost does not matter to me as long as I am not overpaying at the time. It is offensive for people to just say "that price is too high, fix this problem", we are dealing with collectibles. They are worth their price because people will pay it. Pay for it or deal with the fact you won't do it. We aren't talking about millions of dollars here, just about everyone with a job can save for these cards. People just want new toys and nights out more. For what it is worth, I only purchased 7 duals at ten dollars, and they are by far the poorest condition duals of my set. I have paid much more for all of the rest of them.

Look, stock prices are volatile, so are magic cards. I can accept the risk of holding on to my collection specifically because it is the play that is important. Why don't you spend your time accumulating the cool cards instead of begging for a free treat. Creating a new format for you is akin to reprints. Your distaste for the current prices causes a major shift in how the game is currently. If you had the duals, would you sell them or keep them? Thought so

[dschalter]

Good Afternoon,

I am getting pretty tired of this. This is a bad idea. The people that want this format don't really want it anyway. What happens when misdirection hits 70 dollars and ports are 65. Please try to understand this simple point, great magic cards in popular formats are expensive. Here is the best piece of advice I can give and I have given it before. Buy in to the format that you love. Feel accomplishment when you put together a sick legacy deck, knowing that you are slinging some of the best cards of magics long history. Give up restaurants for a while, lose weight, learn to really cook good food (This will help you throughout your life), and acquire a killer deck. I promise that you will be happier. Perhaps you will realize that it is a slap in the face to everyone that has gone through the journey to ask for the rules to be bent for you.

I bought duals for under 10 bucks a few years ago. Last month I purchased the remaining duals to finish my 40 for 450 dollars. I invest in what I enjoy. Magic is a labor of love. If you don't want to invest in legacy, fine, go play standard, draft, sealed, extended, EDH, pauper, block, packwars, cube, mental, 250, type 4, creature feature, singleton standard, cyos, Mortal Combat (Ames, Iowa format), and let the people who really care about the format enjoy it for what it is alone. Don't mess with our format.

This is a response to the real issue here.

-Peace

The game is a business, made with goal of earning as much profit as possible, regardless of what it means to you on a personal level. Sentimentality is nice, but it isn't exactly an important factor in business decisions.

[quadibloc]

Creating a new format for you is akin to reprints.I'm sorry if I misunderstood your previous post.

Yes, creating a new format is akin to reprints. This is why I do make it clear, when the issue comes up, that I definitely don't want Wizards to withdraw support from Legacy. If the price of the duals does cause interest in Legacy to slowly fade, it should be clear that this is not happening because of anything Wizards is doing, except for avoiding the reprints in question.

I don't see it as unfair or dishonest for people who have come to Magic later in the day to desire to have a gentle step upwards from Extended available to them, just as it was, at one time in the past, easier to step upwards from Extended to Legacy than it is now. This just conforms the major available formats more closely to the current reality, in which Magic has been around for many years, and so a huge gap exists between Extended and Legacy.

[ktkenshinx]

Good Afternoon,

I am getting pretty tired of this. This is a bad idea. The people that want this format don't really want it anyway. What happens when misdirection hits 70 dollars and ports are 65. Please try to understand this simple point, great magic cards in popular formats are expensive. Here is the best piece of advice I can give and I have given it before. Buy in to the format that you love. Feel accomplishment when you put together a sick legacy deck, knowing that you are slinging some of the best cards of magics long history. Give up restaurants for a while, lose weight, learn to really cook good food (This will help you throughout your life), and acquire a killer deck. I promise that you will be happier. Perhaps you will realize that it is a slap in the face to everyone that has gone through the journey to ask for the rules to be bent for you.
I understand your economic concern, but the evidence is not quite on your side. Even in the most expensive years of Standard and Extended, with some awesome "staples" costing way more than the average card, your highest price was never really much more than $50. Baneslayer Angel and Jace the Mind Sculptor carry that dubious honor in the present standard. Chrome Mox, Wrath of God, Cunning/Living Wish, Umezawa's Jitte, Dark Depths; these cards are now, or have been, format defining, but none of them ever hit the price tags of their Legacy counterpart staples. This is one strike against the idea that "popular formats have expensive cards"; it's just insufficient to explain Legacy's high prices.

As to the idea of an investment, I just do not get why people keep saying this. It is obviously and without a doubt better to invest in a format like Legacy than continue to spend money in Standard, at least from an economic, investment-based standpoint. But how many rational, economic agents do you guys really know? There are tons of bad investors and frivolous spenders in the world, and for every intelligent economic entity there are dozens of stupid ones. Magic is no exception to this. It is not enough to keep saying "Legacy is a better investment so everyone should just invest in it." Clearly this logic has not worked in past years, otherwise Legacy would be way, way more popular than Standard. There is no reason to believe it will work now.


I bought duals for under 10 bucks a few years ago. Last month I purchased the remaining duals to finish my 40 for 450 dollars. I invest in what I enjoy. Magic is a labor of love. If you don't want to invest in legacy, fine, go play standard, draft, sealed, extended, EDH, pauper, block, packwars, cube, mental, 250, type 4, creature feature, singleton standard, cyos, Mortal Combat (Ames, Iowa format), and let the people who really care about the format enjoy it for what it is alone. Don't mess with our format.

This is a response to the real issue here.

-Peace
This should not be the response to the real issue here. If so, it admits that present Legacy is an exclusive and money-oriented format. While I am happy to spend money to slowly complete my Reanimator and ANT deck, most players are not. They would rather shell out 180 or so for Jund than 350 for Merfolk (or double that for pretty much anyhting else). If the only "draw" to Legacy is its expensive but satisfying card pool, then this format is in serious trouble. "If you don't want to invest in legacy, fine, go play standard, etc." is a majorly unsustainable argument. Of those formats you mentioned, the first few (Standard, Draft, Sealed, Extended) are all more popular than Legacy (although Extended is definitely losing out there). I do not intend on offending you or your position here. I am simply offering that this argument should not be used to champion the format. We want the format to expand, not contract.


I don't see it as unfair or dishonest for people who have come to Magic later in the day to desire to have a gentle step upwards from Extended available to them, just as it was, at one time in the past, easier to step upwards from Extended to Legacy than it is now. This just conforms the major available formats more closely to the current reality, in which Magic has been around for many years, and so a huge gap exists between Extended and Legacy.
This is a good way of considering the new format. Magic is definitely growing in popularity. Tournament attendance is higher than ever, and Magic sales are holding strong, and even increasing, despite economic downturns and a general decline in consumer spending. With more players entering this game, there are going to need to be more options. Some players will like Standard, and that's great for them. Others will have the money and/or previous investment in Magic to play Legacy, and that's great for them. But in my experience, there is a large portion of casual-esque and somewhat-veteran players who do not have the money and cards to play Legacy, but do not want to respend money on new Standard decks every year. These are the guys who played Tooth and Nail, Astral Slide, Psychatog, and Suicide Black back in the day. Many of them are under the impression (which might be innaccurate), that these decks would have a serious fighting chance in a decently moderated new format.

Overall, there are a few aspects of Legacy that people here cannot avoid.
1) Legacy is an expensive format. We can rationalize it as an investment and a good, long-lasting purchase. We can say it is satisfying to complete a deck. But the bottom line is that people are not rational economic agents. Players would rather spend 40 dollars here and 40 dollars there to complete a Jund deck in a month, rather than spend 100 dollars here and 100 dollars there to complete a CounterTop deck in a year.
2) Legacy is PERCEIVED as an expensive format. When we calculate out deck prices as I have done in previous posts, we see that Standard and Legacy don't have as many price differences as we might initially believe. Yet, there are tons of arguments on this forum and others that "legacy is expensive." We are left to conclude that players don't want to make the calculation of format price, and are content with the general rumor that Legacy is just expensive. It's wrong, but it's their perception.
3) Magic players are like normal people. Some are good with investing money, but most are not. I have explained this above.

These 3 reasons contribute towards a larger Legacy problem (along with those other, less quanitifiable ones like perceived arrogance of the players, high transition costs, difficulty in finding events, etc). A new format would solve SOME of these problems without utterly murdering Legacy as a whole.

-ktkenshinx-

[Cabal_chan]

Wait...so, is this the new format?

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/sf/88

'Godzilla'? Mutliplayer fatty creatures?

[perm]

I am excited for a half legacy half extended format, i've always wish that extended, uh, extended further back. hur hur. Would be very fun to play, thought I wish the cutoff were at Urza

[quadibloc]

Wait...so, is this the new format?

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/sf/88

'Godzilla'? Mutliplayer fatty creatures?No. Wizards often discusses casual formats on its site. Thus, there was a discussion of Choose Your Own Standard a while back. A great format, but not likely one that Wizards will officially support, because it pretty much doesn't drive the purchase of new cards at all.

No; the rumor was that Wizards would add to its line-up of major supported formats an eternal format with the Mercadian Masques block as a starting point. The intent would be to have a format that could fill the role that Legacy is becoming increasingly unable to fill as its staple cards continue to soar in value, so that cards continue to have a life after Extended.

[dontbiteitholmes]

I don't know about you guys, but I'm pretty happy with how Legacy is right now. Sure there isn't Friday night magic Legacy or "More local events," whatever that means. At the same time though I look in the forums and there is a tournament worth traveling to almost every weekend. I mean from now through the end of the summer I'll go to 2 Starcity Opens, a Power 9 draft, and a GP. Standard and Extended are there for people who want to play them, they appeal to people who play lots of Magic and open packs and have nothing better to do on a Friday night then go to FNM. Legacy's core audience is older then FNM on average I would guess by about 3-5 years. Playing a format that is going to rotate every X amount of time doesn't appeal to me. I don't care about new cards. I grew up playing Magic when the old cards were the new cards. I see the allure of T2 but it's for a certain player and I'm not that guy.

Now when I was young and could not afford sweet shit, I wanted to play Vintage so bad. It wasn't for me though. Legacy is an Eternal format. These kids are out there crying that Legacy is too expensive and at the same time they spend hundreds of dollars every time a block rotates. Everyone wants cheap shit. Gas was 99 cents when I started driving by this summer it will be $3 a gallon. Dual lands have barely kept up with gas prices on inflation. New format is bullshit. Everyone is talking out of their ass right now but I haven't seen one reason to believe that Wizards is actually considering this and every bit of evidence to suggest some kid with one post made a thread on MTGSalvation and it got blown out of proportion. Legacy is always going to be expensive, vintage is always going to be expensive, eternal formats are always going to be expensive. Any set that doesn't rotate is going to cost loot to make a good deck. Wizards just reprinted Force of Will online, what, like 2 years ago, and they cost about +$200 a piece now AND they can only be played in the least popular format Wizards currently supports (Online Classic). WOTC being able to reprint cards does not equal an affordable format, in the end it just comes down to do you want to play Magic every week and buy new cards all the time or do you want to buy a deck that will be good for a long time. Almost all the top 10 decks in Legacy were around in some form when Tarmogoyf came out and most have changed little since. In the end a lot of people just like to complain. Evidence supports to fact they could have made a Legacy deck long ago and been done with it but they "OMG want to play so bad, but it's too expensive" and just played T2/Ext instead. It's always going to be like this. Wizards may one day break the reserved list since, you know, in the end it's just something they made up and is not legally binding in any way. Even if that happens they will never reprint to the point where duals are under $20 a piece and the same people complaining now will still be sitting on the sidelines. A lot of those people could play Legacy if they really wanted to that bad but they'd rather spend money on other things, which is fine, either that or they can't even afford to put together a descent Ext deck since that's roughly 1/3 to 1/2 the price of a Legacy deck nowadays depending and that Ext deck will rotate out in a couple months anyways.

[ktkenshinx]

This is a quote from Aaron Forsythe's twitter. It was posted just after the Magic Show came live on April 23:


Just watched The Magic Show. Can't comment on rumors, but can reiterate that we enjoy feedback/input.
12:07 AM Apr 23rd via web

Is this irrefutable evidence? No. It is, however, certainly a push in the right direction. It also suggests that Wizards is either considering a new format or thinking about considering a new format. In either situation, Wizards absolutely does read forums like these and absolutely listens to players. They do not always do what players want them to do (read: Reserve List), but they certainly have their ears open for us.


These kids are out there crying that Legacy is too expensive and at the same time they spend hundreds of dollars every time a block rotates.
Again, while you present the rational economic argument, most Magic players just do not understand it. It seems easier (not IS easier, just seems) to purchase a new deck for about 100-200 every time the block rotates than it is to invest chunks of 100 and 200 at a time for a deck that will not be complete for a few months. With Legacy staple prices rising, mostly the Duals, the format is entering an unsustainable, Vintage-like pattern. And we all know what happened to Vintage. A new format would salvage the best of Legacy and scrap the worst. Some cards and staples would be lost, but many would not. Indeed, many of the removed cards (most notably FoW, but even potential dogs like Goyf) inhibit format diversity. With a properly constructed banlist, this new format could be wide open to dozens of old, new, and reinvigorated decktypes. Diversity brought players to Legacy, and it will definitely bring players to this new format.

-ktkenshinx-

[jazzykat]

Since this is an opinion/speculation thread I would like to chime in. While I can grudgingly accept no reprints I don't want to play legacy light. I'm one of the very few that came to competitive legacy from competitive vintage. I started playing vintage because it was incredibly fast and cerebral. I was initially disappointed when I had to change to legacy but now I enjoy playing it. Actually touching the cards I grew up playing with is special playing astral slide vs goblins or another physcatog vs thresh is not so much.

[stalkerzero]

The more and more I read this thread the less some postings make sense. "I wanted to play Vintage but couldn't afford it so I picked up legacy instead." That's my rough translation of what was said earlier in the thread. That's why wotc may be thinking about this new format. Lots of people want to play legacy but its hard to afford all at once. Sure you can play some decks that are fun or unique but who really wants to spend six months or a year piecing together a deck? Overall legacy lite doesn't appeal to me. I would rather see wotc man up and make legacy easier to break in to or let it kill itself like vintage. And I love legacy. It is the only format I would ever even consider playing.

[quadibloc]

While I can grudgingly accept no reprints I don't want to play legacy light. I'm one of the very few that came to competitive legacy from competitive vintage.No reprints, unfortunately, is something we're stuck with. (I think they will abolish the Reprint Policy sooner than we expect - but after they do that, they still won't reprint the good cards, so it won't matter for Legacy.)

Legacy Lite, though, is something that will benefit people who don't play it. If you already have the cards to play Legacy, some of those cards will now rise in value due to new demand. If you play Extended, when your cards rotate out, you will be able to sell them for a bigger chunk of what they were worth before they rotated out.

So the format will do something even for the people who aren't interested in playing it.

[jazzykat]

The more and more I read this thread the less some postings make sense. "I wanted to play Vintage but couldn't afford it so I picked up legacy instead." That's my rough translation of what was said earlier in the thread. I hope you weren't referring to me. I own Power 10 + Drains + all the trappings, I also have 8 underground seas..., I like Vintage because it is fast. Legacy is fun because it reminds me of my casual days of bashing with dudes and tapping dual lands.

[kkoie]

I pretty much mirror Jazzykats opinion. I'd much rather be playing Vintage, but play Legacy since it is more popular.

I myself would prefer wizards concentrate on making current eternal formats more popular rather than wasting time creating another format.

[Cabal_chan]

For the people who think a new Eternal format is a brilliant idea...

"Would you give a starving dog a rubber bone?" - Linus Van Pelt

[SpikeyMikey]

Seriously guys, I'm not sure where this "Legacy is cheaper in the long run" thing comes from, but it's simply not true. Oh some staples rotate slower than others and some have never gone out of vogue but Legacy is littered with expensive cards that used to be good and decks that used to be tier 1. There are plenty of expensive cards that need to be added as well. Goyf is the best example but cards like FoD rack up quickly as well. Legacy decks become obsolete. Even when the cards are still legal, they become unplayable. How're those Resets and Fact or Fictions or Tradewind Riders looking these days? The fact is that the way the format shifts, you're looking at playing a new deck every year or two if you want to stay cmpetitive and it will cost you as much as a new T2 deck whether you have the duals and forces or not.

Where Standard is cheaper is you can get staples playing limited. Can't afford $200 in cards? Can you draft 8 times? Grats, you got 3 sets of playable commons, some decent uncommons and a good rare or two. Maybe you even won some packs. And it's easier to trade for T2 goodies.

I like legacy guys, but let's call a spade a spade, the shit is expensive. You could pay for my 07 Saab convertible for half a year for the value of a countertop deck and a set of 40 duals would cover it for 8 months. I know which one I'd rather have.

[Jak]

Seriously guys, I'm not sure where this "Legacy is cheaper in the long run" thing comes from, but it's simply not true. Oh some staples rotate slower than others and some have never gone out of vogue but Legacy is littered with expensive cards that used to be good and decks that used to be tier 1. There are plenty of expensive cards that need to be added as well. Goyf is the best example but cards like FoD rack up quickly as well. Legacy decks become obsolete. Even when the cards are still legal, they become unplayable. How're those Resets and Fact or Fictions or Tradewind Riders looking these days? The fact is that the way the format shifts, you're looking at playing a new deck every year or two if you want to stay cmpetitive and it will cost you as much as a new T2 deck whether you have the duals and forces or not.

Where Standard is cheaper is you can get staples playing limited. Can't afford $200 in cards? Can you draft 8 times? Grats, you got 3 sets of playable commons, some decent uncommons and a good rare or two. Maybe you even won some packs. And it's easier to trade for T2 goodies.

I like legacy guys, but let's call a spade a spade, the shit is expensive. You could pay for my 07 Saab convertible for half a year for the value of a countertop deck and a set of 40 duals would cover it for 8 months. I know which one I'd rather have.

What Legacy deck that has become "obsolete" doesn't have parts in it that can be used for other decks?

[DragoFireheart]

What Legacy deck that has become "obsolete" doesn't have parts in it that can be used for other decks?

Threshold decks.


Mystic Enforcer, Werebear and Quirion Dryad are all outdated when compared to Natural Order (for Progenitus), Tarmogoyf and other nuts creatures.

aka, power creep.

[Jak]

Threshold decks.


Mystic Enforcer, Werebear and Quirion Dryad are all outdated when compared to Natural Order (for Progenitus), Tarmogoyf and other nuts creatures.

aka, power creep.

Those are like under $5 dollar cards. Obviously the big elephant is Tarmogoyf, but other than that most decks don't need a lot of money to stay competitive.

[Trans Am]

I like legacy guys, but let's call a spade a spade, the shit is expensive. You could pay for my 07 Saab convertible for half a year for the value of a countertop deck and a set of 40 duals would cover it for 8 months. I know which one I'd rather have.

uh.... the counter/top deck and the 40 duals. this isnt 1988, nino brown called and wants his saab back.

[ktkenshinx]

Threshold decks.


Mystic Enforcer, Werebear and Quirion Dryad are all outdated when compared to Natural Order (for Progenitus), Tarmogoyf and other nuts creatures.

aka, power creep.

This is an unusual and relatively recent phenomenon, and I am not sure we can universalize it to all cards. Savannah Lions and Kird Ape evolved into Isamaru evolved into Watchwolf and so on into the era of Goyf, Rhox, Nacatl (and Thoctar/Leatherback if you are involved in Standard). Aggro power creep was recent, and I can't imagine that Wizards will push the envelope much more than they already have. If these are the new benchmarks for aggro (benchmarks that won't change any time soon), then Legacy will be a pretty decent investment for the coming years.

That said, I do agree with you. Poor Enforcer/Werebear/Dryad/Nantuko Shade/Spiritmonger/etc. We knew ye well.

-ktkenshinx-

[quadibloc]

For the people who think a new Eternal format is a brilliant idea...

"Would you give a starving dog a rubber bone?" - Linus Van PeltUnfortunately, since reprints are impossible, that dog will go hungry. The new format is to feed another hungry dog, with food it will find substantial.

Because while you are right that the new format just won't be Legacy, it will still serve a useful purpose for other players that Legacy can't serve any more, since the expense of the original duals means not enough people can play it. The idea isn't to ban the original duals in Legacy, not to kill Legacy for the new format, but to have the new format perform a function for Magic as a whole that Legacy is now unable to do for it.

[jrsthethird]

uh.... the counter/top deck and the 40 duals. this isnt 1988, nino brown called and wants his saab back.

I would take a Saab convertible over a Trans Am any day...


That said, I do agree with you. Poor Enforcer/Werebear/Dryad/Nantuko Shade/Spiritmonger/etc. We knew ye well.

-ktkenshinx-

Nantuko Shade is still good. See Eva Green.

[SpikeyMikey]

uh.... the counter/top deck and the 40 duals. this isnt 1988, nino brown called and wants his saab back.

You go ahead and take the slips of cardboard with some bad pictures on them and the convention centers packed with the smell of unwashed virgins. To each their own. I'm not really in a position to judge, I used to write articles about Magic and I was part of a top 50 WoW raiding guild for a while. But I don't think you'll find many people that would rather take the cardboard over the convertible, if the option was presented to them as such.

Jak, let's say for grins and giggles that you had the old BHWC Landstill, and you took a several year hiatus from the game. You take your former tier 1 Landstill deck and try and morph it into something currently competitive. So you're keeping the Plows and Tundras and the Trops and Force and Daze and Brainstorm. But you're buying 4 goyfs, 4 CB, 4 SDT, 3 Spell Snare, 4 War Monks, an NO, a Prog, the extra Trops and Tundras to round out the deck, some Trygon Predators, Ponders, a Dryad Arbor, some Misty Rainforests, etc. Even buying played cards, you're spending enough to buy 2 gem mint Jund decks. And there's no guarantee that Scars of Mirrodin doesn't contain the base for a deck that totally invalidates CB/Top decks. Suddenly, your $500 investment in updating your deck is wasted as the deck becomes as competitive as ATS or Solidarity or whatever other archetypes appeared and died in the time that I was out of the game. So sure, you've got Trops and Tundras and Daze and Force and now Goyfs, but you're scrambling to find something else to build and it's going to cost you at least another $300-$400 to retune into something viable again.

I built a competitive T2 deck on MTGO for half the cost of a paper played revised Underground Sea. Is it tier 1? No, but it's good enough to win games, and it cost me $45 in tickets. Build a Legacy deck that can even post 35% against the field for $45 at dealer prices.

And guys, the investment thing... If you want a good investment, buy Berkshire Hathaway "A" stocks. Not going to get anything more solid than that. It's a sure thing, you'll never lose value and the value of the stocks will continue to climb. All you have to do is come up with the 6 figures to pony up for that initial investment (closed today at $115k/share), and then it's way more solid than playing around with the more volatile stocks. I mean, there's this misconception that people have that BH A class is too expensive, but once you buy them, you don't need to buy anything else, you can just sit on your A stocks. They've gone up 76% over the last decade, even with the recent market crash. Talk about a rock solid investment!

If you don't have the scratch to show up and play Legacy, it wouldn't matter even if it WAS cheaper (and again, I don't think that it is), you get what you can afford. For what you'd spend on your car with financing, you could get a car that's twice as niice if you'd just go out and pay cash. But that's how life works, you'll pay more in the long term because you can't afford to shell out in the short term, but that's ok because something is better than nothing and playing T2 is better than not playing at all.

I'm looking at buying a condo. $100k loan at 5% over 30 years with no PMI (VA guaranteed loan) assuming a measly 1.25% property tax rate with taxes held in escrow (pretty much a given on a first time home loan) and I'm looking at paying $230,000 over the life of the loan. For that kind of money, I could buy 2 condos and rent one out. Hell, let's even take the property tax out of that, since I'll be paying that either way. Still looking at $193k, nearly double the amount I borrowed. Also, keep in mind that most people are looking at .5% for PMI at least, since the VA loans are only available to veterans and veterans spouses. It'd be such a better investment to just buy it cash... Except I can't afford to do that. Just like I can't afford to go out and spend $1500 on a deck in a single pop. I could maybe build it over the course of 4 or 5 months without too seriously impacting my standard of living, but not if I went back to working a 40 hour week.

If you've got the cards and you want to go "oh man, I don't have to invest anything in playing", fine. But try and put yourself in the position of someone that doesn't have oodles of useless cash laying around that they'd like to trade for little slips of cardboard with bad artwork on them before you tell everyone how easy it is to buy into Legacy.

[Jak]

Jak, let's say for grins and giggles that you had the old BHWC Landstill, and you took a several year hiatus from the game. You take your former tier 1 Landstill deck and try and morph it into something currently competitive. So you're keeping the Plows and Tundras and the Trops and Force and Daze and Brainstorm. But you're buying 4 goyfs, 4 CB, 4 SDT, 3 Spell Snare, 4 War Monks, an NO, a Prog, the extra Trops and Tundras to round out the deck, some Trygon Predators, Ponders, a Dryad Arbor, some Misty Rainforests, etc. Even buying played cards, you're spending enough to buy 2 gem mint Jund decks. And there's no guarantee that Scars of Mirrodin doesn't contain the base for a deck that totally invalidates CB/Top decks. Suddenly, your $500 investment in updating your deck is wasted as the deck becomes as competitive as ATS or Solidarity or whatever other archetypes appeared and died in the time that I was out of the game. So sure, you've got Trops and Tundras and Daze and Force and now Goyfs, but you're scrambling to find something else to build and it's going to cost you at least another $300-$400 to retune into something viable again.

The list I will use:

4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
3 Fact or Fiction
3 Stifle
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Disenchant
2 Crucible of Worlds

4 Flooded Strand
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Nantuko Monastery
3 Wasteland
1 Plains

4 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Engineered Plague
4 Meddling Mage
3 Duress

Instead of looking at the deck as a whole, break it down.

Buy
4 Tarmogoyf $61.00 = $244.00
4 Counterbalance $5.78 = $23.12
4 Top $5.36 = $21.44
3 Spell Snare $3.26 = $9.78
4 RWM $0.67 = $2.68
3 NO $22.95 = $68.85
1 Prog $10.88 = $10.88
4 Ponder $0.48 = $1.92
3 Trygon Predator $1.43 = $4.29
4 Misty Rainforest $8.59 = $34.36
1 Dryad Arbor $1.38 = $1.38
Total = $422.70

Sell
4 Counterspell $0.50 = $2.00
4 Standstill $7.44 = $29.76
3 Fact or Fiction $2.08 = $6.24
3 Stifle $10.77 = $32.31
4 Pernicious Deed $7.35 = $29.40
2 Diabolic Edict $0.95 = $1.90
2 Crucible of Worlds $8.34 = $16.68
3 Underground Sea $70.14 = $210.42
4 Mishra's Factory $4.24 = $16.96
3 Wasteland $16.36 = $49.08
Total = $394.75

A deck that was around 4 years ago can be traded in for one of the most expensive now. Legacy is an investment and the cards (probably not creatures) that were good way back when are likely to still be good. The point is that you are able to buy a deck, and you won't lose your money. Even if it becomes obsolete, the pieces have other homes and still retain value.

I am not saying that this makes it a cheaper format than Standard (or Extended) since some people are great at getting out before the prices drop. What I am saying is that cards in Legacy hold their value.

[Trans Am]

You go ahead and take the slips of cardboard with some bad pictures on them and the convention centers packed with the smell of unwashed virgins.

What does it matter what you smell like when we play, unless you're trying to distract me.


I used to write articles about Magic

Cool, Im glad you were almost somebody once.


I was part of a top 50 WoW raiding guild for a while.

Neat. I was a goblin for halloween when I was like 11.


I don't think you'll find many people that would rather take the cardboard over the convertible,

But they dont get the cardboard or the convertible. they only get use of the convertible for 6 months.


you're spending enough to buy 2 gem mint Jund decks.

Yeah, and whenever they rotate out, what kind of return will you be able to get on those jund decks ? huh ? Whats a good mono white kithkin deck going for these days ?


there's no guarantee that Scars of Mirrodin doesn't contain the base for a deck that totally invalidates CB/Top decks. Suddenly, your $500 investment in updating your deck is wasted

Kind of like what ANT does to goblins ? Guess nobody plays goblins anymore.


it's going to cost you at least another $300-$400 to retune into something viable again.

Didnt you already get called out for just making numbers up earlier ? Exactly where did you get the $300-$400 figures ? If he had the duals, fetches, goyfs, etc, wtf is going to cost $300-$400 more ?


I built a competitive T2 deck on MTGO for half the cost of a paper played revised Underground Sea. Is it tier 1? No, but it's good enough to win games, and it cost me $45 in tickets. Build a Legacy deck that can even post 35% against the field for $45 at dealer prices.

So because you built a virtual tier 3 t2 standard deck for MTGO for X amount, you want someone else to then build a legacy deck in reality for that same amount ? Im not getting the relation. Standard has 1-3 viable strategies, legacy has tons.


If you want a good investment, buy Berkshire Hathaway "A" stocks. + a bunch of words

sure, I'll take that into account.


But try and put yourself in the position of someone that doesn't have oodles of useless cash laying around that they'd like to trade for little slips of cardboard with bad artwork on them before you tell everyone how easy it is to buy into Legacy.

I dont have umpteen squidillion oodles of useless cash laying around, but I do just fine. I only play every week or two, its not like Im in some sure hurry to play legacy every single week with a brand new deck.

[rleader]

I think a lot of people are exaggerating how much interest there is in this proposed format; it's easy to say, hey, sure I'd play; it's another thing to actually show up. A lot of the younger players I know either

1. make constant trades (at a loss) keeping little inventory to compete in standard.
2. don't even read spoilers for sets and have no idea what cards are even in the latest set but buy packs to add to their school cafeteria deck.

Trying to hunt down shocklands from six years ago, not really on their radar...

A superextended MIGHT draw in some of the EDH crowd or people returning to magic who played from 4th-Mirage (I myself fit that category), as they could get a cheaper manabase and still see some of the stuff they knew as it was reprinted in 6th edition. But I'm not sure the numbers are really there to warrant it.

bad analogy, but I'm making it anyway: I see eternal as a bit like Pithing Needle: There was enough demand to keep it $15-20 for quite some time, but as soon as M10 deluged the market, it proved that the demand really wasn't what we suspected it was all along. I believe superextended would follow that same path and be barely an improvement over legacy. At least the current price bubble is keeping people excited about acquiring cards now: I'm betting superextended or whatever it gets called would follow the same cyclical trajectory of current extended, gathering few, if any, players beyond what it currently has.

My response at SCG to Peter Jahn's latest:

I'm a more formats the better kind of person; wish FNM rotated between block/standard/limited/extended (for rare months with four fridays).

OTOH, I still don't know why "support" is a reason for the creation of a new format -- Peter's article is clear that he thinks it's just about keeping card supplies up, but a lot of the internet pundits keep repeating that WOTC needs to be making money off of all formats or something to that effect. As if PTQs create money... Which is highly arguable to say the least.

I also think that forum goers are misrepresenting themselves as the vast majority of players when they say that extended is dead and this would bring tons of people into the before-standard game. I doubt it. There are people who are interested in that and there are people who aren't and can't be (no credit card for online singles, etc.); I just can't imagine that kids who run tier 3 standard decks are going to be clamoring to jump into a game that is even harder for them to compete in than extended currently is. And that's where the big numbers that WOTC wants to draw from are located.

But they're not here to say that and even if they are, they probably think that it'd be unpopular to admit it. I've lost track of the times I've seen people make horrendous-value trades with stores before events like regionals just to convert from one deck to a slightly better metagamed deck, trading in Wrath of Gods for like $2 each. Would a "supported" eternal format keep people from making "bad" decisions like that just in case they might go to a "super extended" ptq someday, or would it just make people feel worse for trying to stay relevant in standard with limited funds?

I've never sold a magic card, ever, and have about six sleeved legacy decks built at the moment (hard to say if my collection would get "better" or not if I switched to masques-on, probably no), but I'm clearly in the minority there.

[quadibloc]

I believe superextended would follow that same path and be barely an improvement over legacy. At least the current price bubble is keeping people excited about acquiring cards now: I'm betting superextended or whatever it gets called would follow the same cyclical trajectory of current extended, gathering few, if any, players beyond what it currently has.There's certainly that danger.

What I think is the cause of the perceived need for reprints of the original dual lands, and hence, the cause of the current Legacy price bubble as well, is the fact that the very popular Mirrodin block is set to rotate out of Extended this fall. Whether people want to sell their cards, or just continue playing with them, the fact that a limited supply of the original duals keeps the pool of Legacy players small is bad news for people with a lot of Mirrodin cards.

So in Fall 2010, your Chrome Mox rotates out - not out of Standard, but out of Extended... with nothing left for it but the fading shadow world of Legacy and Vintage.

In Fall 2011, your Umezawa's Jitte follows it.

In Fall 2012, your shocklands.

And then in Fall 2013, your Tarmogoyf heads to the near-oblivion of Legacy and Vintage!

Legacy is supposed to be a safety net for players as they hear rotation's winged chariot approaching... and the current price bubble for Legacy is indicating that it's not doing that job as well any more.

So the intended scenario is that the new format will stimulate demand for cards, and thus Extended players will be happy that their cards are not going to be worthless soon, so Extended thrives... and thus Standard players will be happy that their cards won't drop as far when they rotate out of Standard, since Extended is thriving.

This means two things.

One is that the new format will have to be fun to play for it to be popular enough to do anything.

The other is that the new format will have to keep more people from quitting Extended than it takes away from Extended.

[ktkenshinx]

The list I will use:

4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
3 Fact or Fiction
3 Stifle
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Disenchant
2 Crucible of Worlds

4 Flooded Strand
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Nantuko Monastery
3 Wasteland
1 Plains

4 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Engineered Plague
4 Meddling Mage
3 Duress

Instead of looking at the deck as a whole, break it down.

Buy
4 Tarmogoyf $61.00 = $244.00
4 Counterbalance $5.78 = $23.12
4 Top $5.36 = $21.44
3 Spell Snare $3.26 = $9.78
4 RWM $0.67 = $2.68
3 NO $22.95 = $68.85
1 Prog $10.88 = $10.88
4 Ponder $0.48 = $1.92
3 Trygon Predator $1.43 = $4.29
4 Misty Rainforest $8.59 = $34.36
1 Dryad Arbor $1.38 = $1.38
Total = $422.70

Sell
4 Counterspell $0.50 = $2.00
4 Standstill $7.44 = $29.76
3 Fact or Fiction $2.08 = $6.24
3 Stifle $10.77 = $32.31
4 Pernicious Deed $7.35 = $29.40
2 Diabolic Edict $0.95 = $1.90
2 Crucible of Worlds $8.34 = $16.68
3 Underground Sea $70.14 = $210.42
4 Mishra's Factory $4.24 = $16.96
3 Wasteland $16.36 = $49.08
Total = $394.75

A deck that was around 4 years ago can be traded in for one of the most expensive now. Legacy is an investment and the cards (probably not creatures) that were good way back when are likely to still be good. The point is that you are able to buy a deck, and you won't lose your money. Even if it becomes obsolete, the pieces have other homes and still retain value.

I am not saying that this makes it a cheaper format than Standard (or Extended) since some people are great at getting out before the prices drop. What I am saying is that cards in Legacy hold their value.

This is a seriously misleading post and set of numbers. For one, I have no idea where these prices are coming from. They strike me as over inflated in some cases and under valued in others. This throws off the entire exercise. Second, why are the Seas, Stifles, and Wastelands on the sell list? If you are playing Legacy as an investment format, then there is no reason at all to get rid of these cards. Way too many decks use them to include them on your sell list. I understand your selling of the other cards, as they are all but useless in most decks these days (Standstill excepted). Besides, Stifle actually goes in the sideboard of many of these decks. If we were to recalculate the price of these two card pools using more accepted values and some more magic-trading/investment logic, we would find that the "Buy" column is way, way in excess of the Sell column.

What does this mean? It means that Legacy decks are harder to trade in and more expensive in the long run. Barring selling the serious staples like Sea, Wasteland, and Stifle, you will have to dish out a ton of cash to afford your transition.


I think a lot of people are exaggerating how much interest there is in this proposed format; it's easy to say, hey, sure I'd play; it's another thing to actually show up. A lot of the younger players I know either

1. make constant trades (at a loss) keeping little inventory to compete in standard.
2. don't even read spoilers for sets and have no idea what cards are even in the latest set but buy packs to add to their school cafeteria deck.

Trying to hunt down shocklands from six years ago, not really on their radar...
1. Your phrasing for "keeping little inventory to compete in standard" is ambiguous. Do you mean that they keep "only a little" invetory so that they can compete in standard? Or do you mean that they keep "too little" inventory to even compete in standard? These interpretations are both quite different. Assuming that one of them is the correct way of reading your sentence, I will give two counterpoints. If the players do not keep enough inventory to even play standard, then they are not quite tournament players, and thus not entirely on Wizards' tournament-format radar. A new format might attract them, and it might not, just like Standard/Extended/Legacy/Vintage might attract them, but also might not.
If these are the players who only keep enough cards to play standard, then it is also a different demographic than we should primarily consider. These players will play standard for a few years, and then might step it up to Extended/NewFormat/Legacy, etc. The purpose of the Eternal formats are not to be wildly popular. There just needs to be one stable format with no unsustainable flaws so Magic players can involve themselves in it. Legacy and Vintage have failed, or are failing, in that regard.

2. School cafeteria players are casual through and through. Wizards would not make their new format as a magic net to capture all of the wayward, non-tournament players. If STANDARD isn't even attracting them, then this format probably won't either. As such, this would not be the format's purpose.


bad analogy, but I'm making it anyway: I see eternal as a bit like Pithing Needle: There was enough demand to keep it $15-20 for quite some time, but as soon as M10 deluged the market, it proved that the demand really wasn't what we suspected it was all along. I believe superextended would follow that same path and be barely an improvement over legacy. At least the current price bubble is keeping people excited about acquiring cards now: I'm betting superextended or whatever it gets called would follow the same cyclical trajectory of current extended, gathering few, if any, players beyond what it currently has.
The Pithing Needle analogy is interesting, but totally wrong in regards to Legacy. Just check out some of the card prices/deck prices on the last bunch of pages. Can it apply to the new format? Maybe, but I doubt it. Current extended and new-format extended/legacy hybrid are different beasts. One rotates. The other is eternal. One has everchanging staples. The other does not. One has everchanging archetypes. The other does not. So long as there is a sense of permanency, players will come. Cyclical extended does not gather players because it keeps changing. Just when some players start to accustom themselves to one archetype, everything rotates. Woe to the poor player who enters Extended/Standard 75% of the way through a rotation. you will have just enough months remaining where you have to buy new cards and learn the decks, but just few enough months that you need to do it all again soon.
The new format would not have this problem, and thus is not comparable to extended.



Legacy is supposed to be a safety net for players as they hear rotation's winged chariot approaching... and the current price bubble for Legacy is indicating that it's not doing that job as well any more.
This is a strong argument. There are a lot of "staples" from older Extended and Standard formats that lose power as the metagame marches on. Where will they find a home? Where will their pilots find a home? Chrome Mox, Jitte, Confidant, Fetchlands, etc. Those who own these cards need to either sell or find a new place to hang their hats once Extended rotates. They can't go to Vintage, because most of their cards are flat out irrelevant there. They can go to Legacy, but they will immediately hit the ever-rising price of Dual lands and be heavily discouraged.

A new format offers an alternate option. In this format, staples like Mox/Jitte/Confidant/Fetchlands would find a home without the artifically high price tag of complementary cards (read: Duals). If the market ever went out of control with shocklands, Wizards could easily reprint them in M11 or M12 without major destabilization to Standard. Some cards obviously should not be introduced into Standard, like FoW, but others could easily fill in a core set. This would keep older players happy, give newer players a place to step up their game to, and offer casual players a new format that can suit their cards and deck ideas. All without the Reserve List fueled prices.

-ktkenshinx-

[rleader]

1. Your phrasing for "keeping little inventory to compete in standard" is ambiguous. Do you mean that they keep "only a little" invetory so that they can compete in standard? Or do you mean that they keep "too little" inventory to even compete in standard

Oops: meant that a lot of players only have cards to field one competitive deck at a time in standard, no less. And they accomplish that by trading at a loss to stores/dealers mostly, so they're not building a collection in any real sense, apart from limited-only cards stored in long boxes.


Cyclical extended does not gather players because it keeps changing.

By cyclical, and I guess I was unclear there too, I meant that the in-season / out of season trade ins where everything less than $20 tends to be cashed in and rebought by evidently scads of players to cause the price fluctuations that occur; sure, people keep stuff like 'goyf forever, otoh. But it's seemingly evident that a lot of continuous extended players don't seem to keep their decks. I'm not sure if a new format would encourage people to hang onto stuff or if they'd just keep their shocklands/dark depths/entombs/goyfs and cash in the rest to play standard again.

I did like LSVs "finger goal posts" explanation of why another format would be great long term. But I'm not sure the fingers are far enough apart yet to really put enough distance between extended and the new format. I guess count me on the opposed to sixth ed. being included then. LSV allegedly doesn't even own 'goyfs ftr though; pros, gotta love'm. ;)

[Jak]

This is a seriously misleading post and set of numbers.

No it isn't.


For one, I have no idea where these prices are coming from.

MOTL


They strike me as over inflated in some cases and under valued in others. This throws off the entire exercise.

Well, the numbers aren't so you are wrong.


Second, why are the Seas, Stifles, and Wastelands on the sell list? If you are playing Legacy as an investment format, then there is no reason at all to get rid of these cards. Way too many decks use them to include them on your sell list. I understand your selling of the other cards, as they are all but useless in most decks these days (Standstill excepted). Besides, Stifle actually goes in the sideboard of many of these decks. If we were to recalculate the price of these two card pools using more accepted values and some more magic-trading/investment logic, we would find that the "Buy" column is way, way in excess of the Sell column.

You are totally misunderstanding what I am trying to show. I was replying to someone saying that anything could happen and your deck would be "obsolete", resulting in you losing money. I was showing that isn't the case since the individual cards retain their value. If you spend $1000 to buy a deck, if your deck becomes unplayable for any reason, you can essentially trade it in for a new one. Stop with your accusations and do a little research before you totally try and throw away my post because you are wrong.



What does this mean? It means that Legacy decks are harder to trade in and more expensive in the long run. Barring selling the serious staples like Sea, Wasteland, and Stifle, you will have to dish out a ton of cash to afford your transition.

No, it means you are wrong. Cards hold value and if you want to switch decks up, you can do it. I don't understand how trading in cards is hard.

[Trans Am]

This is a seriously misleading post and set of numbers. For one, I have no idea where these prices are coming from. They strike me as over inflated in some cases and under valued in others. This throws off the entire exercise.


Dont be dumb.

It looks pretty spot on to me. Maybe $1-$2 higher or lower on some of the items. But its just an average.


Second, why are the Seas, Stifles, and Wastelands on the sell list? If you are playing Legacy as an investment format, then there is no reason at all to get rid of these cards. Way too many decks use them to include them on your sell list. I understand your selling of the other cards, as they are all but useless in most decks these days (Standstill excepted).

Because the point of the "entire excercise" wasnt to retain legacy staples while upgrading a deck. It was to point out that it wouldnt be as expensive as claimed to convert an older deck into a newer deck.

Do you see how I made my point without an excessively huge and wordy post ? Sure, you want to be a writer, but dont embarrass yourself by typing a bunch of snotty filler and nonsense.

[ktkenshinx]

No it isn't.
My main problem with the list of prices was less that they were over and under valued, and more that the Seas/Stifles/Wastelands were included on the list. I apologize if it came off otherwise.

You are totally misunderstanding what I am trying to show. I was replying to someone saying that anything could happen and your deck would be "obsolete", resulting in you losing money. I was showing that isn't the case since the individual cards retain their value. If you spend $1000 to buy a deck, if your deck becomes unplayable for any reason, you can essentially trade it in for a new one. Stop with your accusations and do a little research before you totally try and throw away my post because you are wrong
Again, I apologize if my post came off as targeting the prices. I had just looked up Wasteland prices which were 5 dollars more expensive on blacklotusproject than the number you gave. My main problem was with the Sea/Stifle/Wasteland trade in. While you are capable of trading in these cards, I do not think that it is fair to say "trade them in." These are also Legacy staples and it would be foolish to trade them in. The cards that you WOULD trade in are obsolete cards (most of the ones mentioned in your post). Unfortunately, those obsolete ones barely amount to any money. If you did not sell the Seas and Wastelands, you would have hundreds more to spend on the deck.
I just am unwilling to believe that players would look at their old deck and say "Man, those Seas/Wastelands/Stifles need to go out with the old to bring in the new." People would keep these cards to preempt a later metagame evolution. As you admit yourself, the metagame changes. Getting rid of Seas/Wasteland/Stifle is a poor decision, because these cards are going to be there with the changed metagame.
Again, I am sorry for being overly accusative regarding prices. Most of them are accurate. I just fixated on the Wasteland discrepancy.

Because the point of the "entire excercise" wasnt to retain legacy staples while upgrading a deck. It was to point out that it wouldnt be as expensive as claimed to convert an older deck into a newer deck.

Do you see how I made my point without an excessively huge and wordy post ? Sure, you want to be a writer, but dont embarrass yourself by typing a bunch of snotty filler and nonsense.

I understand the exercise without your clarification. I disagreed, and still disagree, with its premise. Upgrading a deck acknowledges that the metagame has changed and evolved. Presumably, it has evolved for the better, with better cards replacing worse cards. If so, then all of those worse cards are rendered obsolete by the new ones.

No one is going to argue that Underground Sea, Wasteland, and Stifle are obsolete cards. These cards are going to always be relevant in Legacy. They will also always be potentially relevant in the CounterTop/Threshold/Control variants. So why would you sell the Seas/Stifles/Wasteland given that you acknowledge that decks can change? What if you had to buy them later when the metagame evolved again? Well, you would probably be buying them for way more than you sold them for, and taking a large financial hit.

This is unwise. Once you eliminate the Seas/Wastelands/Stifles from the "sell" list (which any reasonable Legacy player would do), you are left buying hundreds of dollars of cards. You CAN sell the cards, but that opens you up to a later metagame shift that forces you to rebuy all of your old stuff. The bottom line is, you probably wouldn't sell them. So the exercise does not have a reasonable premise.

As to your repeated insults, I see no reason for them. Given your last moderator run in, I cannot imagine why you would continue.

-ktkenshinx-

[lordofthepit]

Legacy is supposed to be a safety net for players as they hear rotation's winged chariot approaching... and the current price bubble for Legacy is indicating that it's not doing that job as well any more.

I disagree. Because of Legacy (and to some extent, Extended), your Elspeths, Noble Hierarchs, and Maelstrom Pulses won't plummet down to $2-3 (or even less in some cases). It guarantees that those cards that rotate out of Standard still retain a lot of their value, provided they are playable in the older formats. Contrast that with the likes of Jester's Cap, Grinning Totem, Call of the Herd, and Hammer of Bogardan which truly plummeted in value from those lofty peaks because they were not viable in Legacy, hence only playable in "Casual".

[Jak]

I had just looked up Wasteland prices which were 5 dollars more expensive on blacklotusproject than the number you gave.

Well... MOTL averages out Ebay prices so these are on the low end.


Essentially the same stuff from the previous post

I am not telling anyone to sell their cards. Do you understand the example I am trying to give? If someone way back in 2006 was playing that deck, then for four years took a hiatus from the game, and finally is trying to get back in with a deck that can compete, he can. I am saying that if you are desperate enough to get a new deck with little to no cash, it can be done by selling parts of your older deck. The cards retain value. This is what the person I was responding to was missing by saying that if one little thing happened, and your deck became obsolete, you lost money, which is untrue.

[SpikeyMikey]

I don't like using EBay prices for comparison. While selling on EBay is significantly faster than buying on EBay, in either case, you're looking at additional time and effort to do so, and it's very difficult to quantify the value of time. Because we come from different economic backgrounds, it's difficult to say that an hour of time is worth $X or this amount of effort is worth $Y. If you're a college kid on a scholarship and you're working a part time job at minimum wage, depending on the weight of your class load, the value of your time could be very low. If you're working 60 hours a week at $20/hr. then the value of your time is very high. Given that there is no good way to quantify the value of time and that talking about having a fully optimized and tweaked deck is really mostly for high level events like GP's and SCG Opens - where the stakes are significantly higher than your every other Saturday at the local shop tournies - I don't think it's unreasonable to use card shop prices, since that's what people will likely be paying for up to the week/day tech.

[Jak]

I don't like using EBay prices for comparison. While selling on EBay is significantly faster than buying on EBay, in either case, you're looking at additional time and effort to do so, and it's very difficult to quantify the value of time. Because we come from different economic backgrounds, it's difficult to say that an hour of time is worth $X or this amount of effort is worth $Y. If you're a college kid on a scholarship and you're working a part time job at minimum wage, depending on the weight of your class load, the value of your time could be very low. If you're working 60 hours a week at $20/hr. then the value of your time is very high. Given that there is no good way to quantify the value of time and that talking about having a fully optimized and tweaked deck is really mostly for high level events like GP's and SCG Opens - where the stakes are significantly higher than your every other Saturday at the local shop tournies - I don't think it's unreasonable to use card shop prices, since that's what people will likely be paying for up to the week/day tech.

Cough* bullshit *cough

You are playing a fantasy card game and you are trying to say that if you waste your time you are losing money.

Anyway, ebay puts you on a much more even playing field when it comes to buying and selling. Brick and mortar stores will give you around half the value for your cards and sell you them for full price.

[SpikeyMikey]

Jak, I work 70-75 hours in an average week and then I've got further commitments on top of that. I play a little bit of Magic on MWS in the mornings sometimes before I go to work or occasionally on my days off. If I were to decide to buy back in to paper magic, I would consider my time very valuable. Selling stuff on EBay is a royal pain in the ass. I used to buy and sell cards for additional cash and realized after a month or so that it simply wasn't worth the amount of time that I was putting in.