Single card looks for handsome deck for serious relationship

[General_Norris]

There are a lot of cards in Magic that see no use not because they are bad but because they don't fit in any current deck. This thread is to discuss and to think how to benefit from these powerful cards and why they can't fit right now.

An example:

STASIS

Stasis is the most powerful prison card in Magic's existance, negating one of the pilars of the game and netting lots of virtual card advantage and tempo. The main problem Stasis faces is the need for some kind of mechanism to keep it alive in the deck and removal.

Traditionally Stasis decks had no problems with removal because they could run 16 counterspells and call it a day. Nowadays that's imposible because Krosan Grip forces the deck to run subpar cards or allow itself to be steamrolled when the opponent untaps first.

I have tested almost every veersion you can think of and, at the end of the day, it could not be a permanent lock with Grip around because of Split Second. Using the split second counter is subpar and using Wipe Away is too expensive under Stasis.

In other words, now Stasis is a temporal lock piece that allows you to gain a huge tempo advantage but can't be thought of as a hard lock.


Flame Vault is perhaps the best example of what a modern deck using Stasis needs to be:

1) It has to be a Combo deck because creatures can't attack under Stasis and Control is not reliable with Grip around.
2) Stasis needs to share some synergy with the combo. Sacrificing permanents and bounce are the most obvious synergies. Vault worked as Stasis bounce, freeing 4 slots.

ANKH OF MISRA

This card is a very powerful land hoser but seems to fall prey to it's mana cost. It's not that the mana cost is huge but the fact that it has one seems to be what makes it underpowered. At 1cc it would be another Black Vise but at 2cc it's bad because you are not doing enough damage to compensate the tempo loss of playing the card.

Is this card doomed now that the format is too fast for it or will it revive when a new deck appears?

Discuss!

[Broham]

Stasis and Winter Orb have pretty much slipped off the radar because they are too slow. Against Goblins and ANT, Stasis isn't going to have a huge effect.

You'll need to find a better way to slow the game down to make Stasis and similar cards relevant again, IMO.

[General_Norris]

Actually Stasis is really good against Goblins and aggro in general. Test it. Flame Vault used it and Goblins were more common than noew by far.

[Aggro_zombies]

Actually Stasis is really good against Goblins and aggro in general. Test it. Flame Vault used it and Goblins were more common than noew by far.
Yeah, and Flame Vault also had 4 Time Vault that could untap themselves infinitely to kill the opponent with Flame Fusilade. The deck doesn't really work anymore, though.

Stasis seems pretty poor currently. Turn-two Stasis is almost never good, but you're going to have to invest a lot of resources to keep stuff like Tarmogoyf, Counterbalance, Trygon Predator, and Qasali Pridemage off the table - and for what? Stasis doesn't even win you the game by itself. You need to combine it with Chronatog and that blue Kismet for it to actually be a lock - otherwise, both players draw a bunch of cards, and the opponent hopes you hit a pocket of spells and lose Stasis OR that he gets :1::g::w: to Pridemage it away on your EOT and then blow you out with his army.

[Finn]

A_Z, there are a lot more ways than that to use Stasis.

Forsaken City can infinitely pay Stasis. Combined with Root Maze, you have yourself a pretty good lock. BTW, storm combo stomps Stasis. Scryb Ranger can give you a lot of mobility under a Stasis as well. I don't really know why this card has not been pursued, but I don't think it is due to a bad meta.

[Vacrix]

In the builds I've worked with, Stasis is either hard to resolve, hard to find, or hard to get the lock. Builds where you can get the lock quickly tend to have trouble resolving Stasis while builds that can resolve it and find it can't get the other lock pieces, or the builds that can resolve it and get the other lock pieces can't find it. That is, if you want to use Scryb Rangers/Quirion Ranger tricks to get it out quickly. If not, you are Forced to use Forsaken City and Garruk in a much slower build. Then again, this looks pretty good in Stasis.dec:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=103472&stc=1&d=1269835713

Maybe its worth my while to dabble in another build.

BTW.. if Stasis resolves in the right build, you pretty much win. Garruk wins games under Stasis and provides the lock, and another great option in a white splash (for Etutor) is Luminarch Ascension which, if online, wins games even if Stasis goes offline. The goal is to get Stasis online quickly. Finding a win condition after usually isn't too difficult.


Stasis seems pretty poor currently. Turn-two Stasis is almost never good, but you're going to have to invest a lot of resources to keep stuff like Tarmogoyf, Counterbalance, Trygon Predator, and Qasali Pridemage off the table - and for what? Stasis doesn't even win you the game by itself. You need to combine it with Chronatog and that blue Kismet for it to actually be a lock - otherwise, both players draw a bunch of cards, and the opponent hopes you hit a pocket of spells and lose Stasis OR that he gets to Pridemage it away on your EOT and then blow you out with his army.
You would be surprised how good turn 2 Stasis is. Often Zoo, which is actually a good matchup for my builds of Stasis, drops a few lands early and then runs out of them (you should be resolving Stasis when they are tapped out) making them unable to find the 1GW to get rid of Stasis. I've noticed that by the time you have to deal with Pridemage, you might have a City in hand or Pridemage might have to be aimed at Garruk or Ascension if the opponent wants to survive.

Stasis is a few cards short of being viable again IMO. That new enchantment is a bit to slow right now, but thats not to say WoTC might print something to make it good again.

[DragoFireheart]

Trygon Predator, Krosan Grip and Qasali Pridemage say hi.

[Vacrix]

Try playing them while all your lands are tapped. Thats the point of running Stasis in the first place, but it has to be well timed.

[Aggro_zombies]

Try playing them while all your lands are tapped. Thats the point of running Stasis in the first place, but it has to be well timed.
It seems like you're going through too much effort to not do something broken enough. There's very rarely an issue with being "well-timed" when you want to drop Counterbalance, for example.

[Vacrix]

I ran Counterbalance too. Dropping either one is a pretty good lock.

[DragoFireheart]

Try playing them while all your lands are tapped. Thats the point of running Stasis in the first place, but it has to be well timed.


The decks that use those cards have counters for your Stasis or will kill you quickly. Stasis is simply too slow and weak compared to what it used to be.

[Kangaxx]

In the builds I've worked with, Stasis is either hard to resolve, hard to find, or hard to get the lock. Builds where you can get the lock quickly tend to have trouble resolving Stasis while builds that can resolve it and find it can't get the other lock pieces, or the builds that can resolve it and get the other lock pieces can't find it. That is, if you want to use Scryb Rangers/Quirion Ranger tricks to get it out quickly. If not, you are Forced to use Forsaken City and Garruk in a much slower build. Then again, this looks pretty good in Stasis.dec:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=103472&stc=1&d=1269835713

Maybe its worth my while to dabble in another build.

BTW.. if Stasis resolves in the right build, you pretty much win. Garruk wins games under Stasis and provides the lock, and another great option in a white splash (for Etutor) is Luminarch Ascension which, if online, wins games even if Stasis goes offline. The goal is to get Stasis online quickly. Finding a win condition after usually isn't too difficult.


You would be surprised how good turn 2 Stasis is. Often Zoo, which is actually a good matchup for my builds of Stasis, drops a few lands early and then runs out of them (you should be resolving Stasis when they are tapped out) making them unable to find the 1GW to get rid of Stasis. I've noticed that by the time you have to deal with Pridemage, you might have a City in hand or Pridemage might have to be aimed at Garruk or Ascension if the opponent wants to survive.

Stasis is a few cards short of being viable again IMO. That new enchantment is a bit to slow right now, but thats not to say WoTC might print something to make it good again.

Bear Umbra pretty much requires the creature to have vigilance though. That might require more than 3 colors, though Morphling comes to mind.

[Zalren]

Zephyr Falcon is blue and has vigilance. It would be a three card combo though =(

[DragoFireheart]

Zephyr Falcon is blue and has vigilance. It would be a three card combo though =(

But the Falcon is crap.

[Vacrix]

Well you already ought to play creatures with Vigilance (or psuedo vigilance like Scryb Rangers). I played Scryb Rangers and Court Hussar with moderate success.

[scrumdogg]

Given Split Second, mono-blue Stasis may never be good enough ever again. However, as already mentioned splashing green gives the deckbuilder many interesting options. I would go one step further and advocate adding white for a tri-color build that gives you Enlightened Tutor, STP/Path, and most important of all Sterling Grove as both extra tutor & protection. With all the normal card draw/filter & countering of Stasis decks (which can use Counter-Top, as if they weren't slimy enough to begin with....) and the lone win-con of Chronotog (or Chronotog Totem, which provides mana & is tutorable) not taking up much space at all, the deck should be fine for space. Of course, that makes duals almost a necessity, but so what? The deck already required a playset of Force of Will and can either be a 'budget' mono-color version that loses a lot or a more expensive version that forces you get the cards to build better decks after you reach the point where no one will play you cuz you are 'that asshole playing Stasis....'

[Solaran_X]

Given Split Second, mono-blue Stasis may never be good enough ever again. However, as already mentioned splashing green gives the deckbuilder many interesting options. I would go one step further and advocate adding white for a tri-color build that gives you Enlightened Tutor, STP/Path, and most important of all Sterling Grove as both extra tutor & protection. With all the normal card draw/filter & countering of Stasis decks (which can use Counter-Top, as if they weren't slimy enough to begin with....) and the lone win-con of Chronotog (or Chronotog Totem, which provides mana & is tutorable) not taking up much space at all, the deck should be fine for space. Of course, that makes duals almost a necessity, but so what? The deck already required a playset of Force of Will and can either be a 'budget' mono-color version that loses a lot or a more expensive version that forces you get the cards to build better decks after you reach the point where no one will play you cuz you are 'that asshole playing Stasis....'
Bad cards help bad cards.

You can negate Krosan Grip by running either Willbender or Voidmage Prodigy. If you have a second Artifact or Enchantment available, you can Morph Willbender in response to Krosan Grip (Morphing doesn't use the stack, and Willbender's ability is triggered upon Morphing the creature, and as such disregards Split Second) to change the target to something else. Voidmage Prodigy is the same effect as Willbender, only it Dazes the Krosan Grip instead of changing it's target. Unfortunately, that trick would only work once before they waited until they had 4 mana open to Grip the Stasis.

[DragoFireheart]

Well you already ought to play creatures with Vigilance (or psuedo vigilance like Scryb Rangers). I played Scryb Rangers and Court Hussar with moderate success.

Then use good creatures with Vigilance like Serra Sphinx.

[freakish777]

How about instead of focusing on bad cards like Stasis, we focus on cards that use to be played with Stasis that still have potential? The problem with Stasis is and always was that if you didn't have Root Maze (or Kismet, ew) in play beforehand, your opponent would just play their guys anyways and tap them sideways and eventually kill you (of course if Krosan Grip was involved, you're screwed).

Root Maze seems like it could be stellar in the right deck. Maybe something that looked like Elephant Stompy but with Root Maze and Elves/Heirarchs instead of Chalice...

Imagine going Turn 1 Noble Heirarch, turn 2 Goyf, Rootmaze, Go. What if Tempo Thresh played Root Maze? All of the possibilities with Root Maze are a lot more intriguing than Stasis.

[Trans Am]

What if Tempo Thresh played Root Maze?

That sounds like insane anarchists getting mean to me.

[DragoFireheart]

What if Tempo Thresh played Root Maze?

Sounds like we would have to cut good cards to make room for a bad card.

[freakish777]

Sounds like we would have to cut good cards to make room for a bad card.

While that may ultimately be true, I think my statement stands. Spending time and energy thinking about Root Maze far out weighs spending time and energy thinking about Stasis.

[Michael Keller]

This seems like the perfect thread for this one:

Last week I was on leave and went home to Syracuse and played "The Gate" in the local event at PtG, RtS. I heard there might be some Stax variants running around, so I ended up trying out a few of these in the sideboard:

http://www.extensiveenterprisesonline.com/OnlineStore/images/tcgs/mtg/atq/gate_to_phyrexia.jpg

Won me round one single-handedly against Mono White Stax. I ended up destroying: Chalice (x2), Trinisphere, Crucible of Worlds (x3), and a Lodestone Golem.

Turns out it is pretty good with Bitterblossom. Very good, in fact. Made top four partly because of it.

[Peter_Rotten]

The Oracle text for that card seems a bit odd to me:

Oracle text: Sacrifice a creature: Destroy target artifact. Activate this ability only during your upkeep and only once each turn.


Just sayin'. Cards were worded horribly back then.

[DragoFireheart]

The Oracle text for that card seems a bit odd to me:

Oracle text: Sacrifice a creature: Destroy target artifact. Activate this ability only during your upkeep and only once each turn.


Just sayin'. Cards were worded horribly back then.


Even so, it seems like a nice way to continuously blow up artifacts.

[Hopo]

Even so, it seems like a nice way to continuously blow up artifacts.

Gate to Phyrexia has also historically been the _only_ black way to blow up artifacts. Good to hear someone found a use for it. It's about time.

[Nihil Credo]

Though if you're black and need to hate on Stax, sniping at white seems a better plan: in particular, I've seen the deck and its 3-to-4 mana curve crap its pants before the classic Stromgald Cabal.

And if you specifically need to blow up artifacts, Powder Keg is occasionally slower but also significantly more reliable and a hell of a lot more versatile.

[General_Norris]

Trygon Predator, Krosan Grip and Qasali Pridemage say hi.

Trygon and Pridemage can be countered and bounced so they are not a problem. That is exactly why Krosan grip is so powerful, because it has no answer and forces you to ditch Stasis as a hard-lock, making you use it as a tempo generating card instead.

Remember that Stasis decks had as much countermagic as Draw-Go but packed Bounce to keep Stasis on the table and get rid of threats. Stasis is your draw engine so you have more slots for disruption. You use the counters to get some lands and then drop Stasis to regain the card loss.


Gate to Phyrexia seems cool because it gets rid of Chalice. Hating on White is good but without half of your deck you could be overrun by factories. In my opinion both options are better than Powder Keg against Stax because three turns is enough to save enough threats so as to rebuild the board and will not get experienced Stax players who don't overextend. Don't get me wrong, it's a good card but it will not win you the game at all and I feel like Cabal and Gate are stronger choices as hate.

However Powder Keg is much more versatile than both. This requires testing.

[Solaran_X]

Trygon and Pridemage can be countered and bounced so they are not a problem. That is exactly why Krosan grip is so powerful, because it has no answer and forces you to ditch Stasis as a hard-lock, making you use it as a tempo generating card instead.

Remember that Stasis decks had as much countermagic as Draw-Go but packed Bounce to keep Stasis on the table and get rid of threats. Stasis is your draw engine so you have more slots for disruption. You use the counters to get some lands and then drop Stasis to regain the card loss.


Gate to Phyrexia seems cool because it gets rid of Chalice. Hating on White is good but without half of your deck you could be overrun by factories. In my opinion both options are better than Powder Keg against Stax because three turns is enough to save enough threats so as to rebuild the board and will not get experienced Stax players who don't overextend. Don't get me wrong, it's a good card but it will not win you the game at all and I feel like Cabal and Gate are stronger choices as hate.

However Powder Keg is much more versatile than both. This requires testing.
Not true.
1) A blind flip on Counterbalance revealing 3CMC will counter Krosan Grip.
2) As I previously pointed out, Morphing a Willbender or Voidmage Prodigy (admittedly, both are bad cards in Legacy) can redirect the Grip to something else or attempt to counter it.

[General_Norris]

Not true.
1) A blind flip on Counterbalance revealing 3CMC will counter Krosan Grip.
2) As I previously pointed out, Morphing a Willbender or Voidmage Prodigy (admittedly, both are bad cards in Legacy) can redirect the Grip to something else or attempt to counter it.

I know that but those cards don't really fit Stasis which is what I mean. There are also not a lot of 3cc cards that would fit in Stasis and you can't run Top under Stasis because it's a mana sink.

[Iranon]

Hmm. I don't really see any of the companions to Stasis being better than playing it in an ATS shell... both Quirion Ranger and Tradewind Rider have fairly nice synergy with it. That still seems cute and not fast enough to me though.

[(nameless one)]

What about Scroll Rack?

Outside Parfait, is there any good use for this $15 card? Possibly a toolbox deck built around it?

[Ecoris]

What caused Scroll Rack to jump so much in value? (It has tripled in value since the start of the year. Take a look at http://apathyhouse.com/pricelist/pricelist.php?card=scroll+rack&x=0&y=0). I know Ben Bleiweiss predicted such a development just before it took off:

"I'm not expecting a miracle of God out of Scroll Rack; I am expecting it to perform similarly in nature to Grindstone, Natural Order, and Undiscovered Paradise - other niche-fringe (but important to their archetype) Legacy staples that have seen a dramatic appreciation in value due to the printing of newer cards (Painter's Servant, Progenitus, and Bloodghast, respectively)."
(http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/misc/18754_Insider_Trading_In_the_Wake_of_Worldwake.html)

But I haven't seen Scroll Rack in any tournament since then. Do people listen so much to Ben Bleiweiss that his prophecies become self-fulfilling?

[Kangaxx]

What caused Scroll Rack to jump so much in value? (It has tripled in value since the start of the year. Take a look at http://apathyhouse.com/pricelist/pricelist.php?card=scroll+rack&x=0&y=0). I know Ben Bleiweiss predicted such a development just before it took off:

"I'm not expecting a miracle of God out of Scroll Rack; I am expecting it to perform similarly in nature to Grindstone, Natural Order, and Undiscovered Paradise - other niche-fringe (but important to their archetype) Legacy staples that have seen a dramatic appreciation in value due to the printing of newer cards (Painter's Servant, Progenitus, and Bloodghast, respectively)."
(http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/misc/18754_Insider_Trading_In_the_Wake_of_Worldwake.html)

But I haven't seen Scroll Rack in any tournament since then. Do people listen so much to Ben Bleiweiss that his prophecies become self-fulfilling?

Smart people realize which cards are good and possess potential. I have a list of about 100 cards that are not played in Legacy that are amazing for the format. Why would you need to rely on someone else's opinion to come to a conclusion? There are a few people that can do this, including myself, but it's all based on the individual's insight and creativity IQ.

[Ecoris]

I'm just asking since I was shocked to learn that Scroll Rack is now a $10 card since I knew it was $2-$3 not long ago. The amount of play it sees does not seem to warrant such a price jump.

Kangaxx, out of curiosity, may I ask you to share a few entries of your list of (potentially) amazing yet unplayed cards?

[(nameless one)]

I have always wanted to break Scroll Rack. I tried putting it with my original Counter-Rebel deck but it didn't work. I tried using it with Weathered Wayfarer (way before U/W tempo days) ala Parfait but it didnt work. I tried pairing it with Enlightened Tutor/Tithe but Quinn is far more superior than that idea.

I guess I am doing it all wrong but Scroll Rack is one of those really good cards that does not fit anywhere.

EDIT: how do you check archived threads? I cant seem to find my old thread with Scroll Rack + Tithe deck.

[FoulQ]

I feel like this thread isn't really "Single card looks for handsome deck for serious relationship," but rather, "people still trying to use cards that were good in the olden days but now are too slow compared to modern CA engines"

I think a better discussion would be more like Hollywood's, because there quite a few narrow sideboard gems that the source never discusses that pop up on sites like deckcheck every once in a while. Gate to Phyrexia, who the hell mentioned that in the sui black thread? There are a bunch of other random cards that destroy certain archetypes that not many people play. A lot of them have recently been rediscovered...karakas and faerie macabre, for instance. We need to be on the lookout for THOSE types of cards.

[Kangaxx]

I'm just asking since I was shocked to learn that Scroll Rack is now a $10 card since I knew it was $2-$3 not long ago. The amount of play it sees does not seem to warrant such a price jump.

Kangaxx, out of curiosity, may I ask you to share a few entries of your list of (potentially) amazing yet unplayed cards?

I can give you a few.

Boseiju, Who Shelters All
In The Eye of Chaos
Through The Breach
Nether Void
The Abyss
Shadowmage Infiltrator
Chains of Mephistopheles
Winter Orb

Just off the top of my head. I have many, many more but I don't want to give away too many of my trade secrets. :wink:

[Cavius The Great]

Nether Void


Dude, that card is so Badass. If I had the money for a playset, I don't think I could actually lose a game of magic.


Anyways, no love for Cadaverous Bloom?