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lordofthepit
04-20-2010, 04:31 PM
Much has been made of the fact that Legacy is booming in popularity. Because of the restriction on reprints on the Reserved List (on the dual lands in particular) limits the availability of staples, some have speculated that the format will not be able to sustain itself, much like Vintage was unable to do so (largely because of the limited supply of Power 9), thereby necessitating the non-sanctioned proxied tournaments. I don't think the comparison is apt for several reasons.

1) Sheer disparity in print runs. Looking at the print runs on Crystal Keep, there were probably under 30000 of each rare from A/B/U floating around in circulation; in contrast, there are at least 300000 of each dual land available, so just for starters, there are at least 10 times as many duals as there are of each power (my calculations show closer to 11, but that point is moot).

2) It is more necessary to acquire a full complement of Vintage staples than it is Legacy staples. Although I haven't followed Vintage much recently, it seems that every deck (other than Dredge) benefits from a Black Lotus and on-colored Moxes, and a majority benefit from the inclusion of off-colored Mox and the blue power (save Timetwister). In contrast, there are many strategies that do not use any dual lands at all--in fact, Merfolk, Goblins, and the two Dredge threads make up 4 of the 11 decks in the DtB forum. Moreover, of the decks that do use duals, the requirements are spread out among the 10 different types, although with some (Tropical Island, Underground Sea) clearly more than others (Badlands, Scrubland).

I took a look at the decks that formed the Top 8 at GP Madrid, as decklists were easily accessible and this represents the very highest level of competitive Legacy. There were three Zoo decks, two ANTs, two Countertops, and one Reanimator deck represented. Despite the fact that competitive mono-colored (Merfolk, Goblins) and rainbow-colored (Dredge, TES) strategies were not represented in this list, which would skew the distribution of duals up, there were only 45 dual lands represented among between the 8 decks. Only two dual lands were represented more than 6 times (Underground Sea--12, Tropical Island--9).

I don't follow Vintage anymore, but I scoured the list of recent reported tournaments for a recent one with good turnout, and settled on CVQ - Finals 2009 - Quebec, with 84 participants. A total of 62 pieces of Power 9 were represented among the top 8. Every single one used the allowable Lotus, Sapphire, Jet, Emerald, Walk, and Recall; seven used Ruby, six included Pearl, and only one featured Timetwister.

Thus, the competitive Vintage deck uses more pieces of Power than the corresponding Legacy deck uses duals. This doesn't even account for the competitive Legacy strategies available (not represented in the GP Madrid Top 8) which don't use dual lands, whereas no strategy in Vintage exists that doesn't use Power (other than Dredge, which uses a full complement of four Bazaars).

3) A greater proportion of Vintage staples are not in active circulation. By this, I'm referring to the fact that collectors are much more likely to be hoarding Power 9 than they are dual lands, which removes the former from the circulation of cards available to players; after all, who the hell would send a Revised Underground Sea to PSA for grading and protect it in a screw-down case for protection? Furthermore, because of the much smaller print run of Power 9, a loss of 5000 Lotuses (to use an arbitrary estimate) to collectors would represent almost 20% of the Lotuses originally available, whereas the loss of 5000 Underground Seas over the last 15 years would hardly make a dent in the secondary market.

Combining these three factors, I'd estimate that competitive Legacy could easily sustain 15-20 times, perhaps even more, as many players as Vintage could without the use of proxies. Certainly, the price of entry is becoming exclusive to many would-be players, and I don't want to trivialize this unfortunate development; but at the same time, Legacy is booming in popularity and contrary to what some have suggested, there are more than enough staples available (dual lands) to sustain the format and to allow for further growth.

majikal
04-20-2010, 04:36 PM
[...] no strategy in Vintage exists that doesn't use Power (other than Dredge, which uses a full complement of four Workshops).
I think you mean Bazaars.

Not sure what the point of this article is though. The information has been gone over again and again, and it still hasn't stopped all the assholes from speculating on duals like they're some kind of ocean-view condominium.

lordofthepit
04-20-2010, 04:59 PM
I think you mean Bazaars.

Not sure what the point of this article is though. The information has been gone over again and again, and it still hasn't stopped all the assholes from speculating on duals like they're some kind of ocean-view condominium.

Thanks, I did mean Bazaars. I'll fix that now.

The community has gone through the debate many times, and often, critics of the Reserved List have suggested "reprint duals, or Legacy will die like Vintage in X years". However, I have never seen that criticism addressed, so I thought I'd do so specifically here.

I appreciate that there are both positive and negative aspects to the policy, and I think that is evident from the fact that there are both players with a lot of Legacy staples advocating for reprint, as well as new players with hardly any cards who recognize that reneging on the policy would be bad for various reasons. But the specific notion that Legacy will die without reprints isn't valid in my opinion.

rockout
04-20-2010, 06:30 PM
1. Get a job
2. Buy all your staples
3. Laugh when someone brings up another thread about cards being too expensive because you own them all
???
Profit

grover1522
04-20-2010, 08:01 PM
I admit that duals are a bit pricey due to supply and all, but that doens't mean someone shouldn't try Legacy. Most people think that when they start playing Legacy they must go out and buy four of each dual land. This is not true. There are plenty of competitive decks that you can run that use very few to no dual lands. Obviously, if you have duals you will have more options available, but not owning duals doesn't mean you are completely shutoff from Legacy.

rocketrae21
04-20-2010, 08:33 PM
I think people just need to play legacy with a group of friends who play legacy. Share your shit. I mean I only own blue duals (roughly a set of each). Now when I'm not using my Seas, I have no problem with a friend using them. Yeah it would be nice if they would get their own, but whatever. Its not that hard to play legacy if you can simply find people who play and who like you. If you show interest, people will help you out, especially if you will pay gas.

oldbsturgeon
04-21-2010, 08:08 AM
Currently to play legacy in my area, you either have to be me or my friend.
Well what I mean is that we are the 2 that own cards, Sam more than myself. I have a playset of each blue dual, 4 savannah, 3 taiga, 2 plateau, 1 bayou.
I believe Sam has all but a few badlands and plateaus for the full 40.
With that said, if we start going and lending out decks, which we have to do, we become limited in the available cards. It would be nice to have at least 2 copies of each deck, but we just don't have enough cards even with 20 forces, 12 goyfs, 16 wastelands, and all the above mentioned duals.
Now its true that a very smaill portion of players have a few things, but they rarely play, and if I am honest, I usually only play once a month maybe less.
Realistically then, if I dont play or Sam doesn't in an event around the area, no one else does either.

jazzykat
04-21-2010, 08:38 AM
Just as an aside, speculating on cards may be hugely profitable. One of the most important pieces of advice are that whatever you do to build your wealth beyond your job (i.e. rental property, stocks, consulting,whatever, etc.) you should really love it and be into it. I think the numbers prove out that if you bought most stocks about a year ago you would be up 50% strangely if you bought a tropical island you would be up closer to 100% That said, the stock market is governed by rules (no matter how much they are broken) whereas wizards(Hasbro) has 1 rule as it relates to MTG: to maximize shareholders wealth. They have no direct interest in MTG beyond how much money it makes them. Therefore, the DCI can change policies at any time for any reason and it would be totally legal.

The bottom line: This is a great hobby and some people took away a decent chunk of change flipping cards but all your "wealth" can disappear with one little statement so you better have some love for the game/cards because one day that is all it may be again.

dahcmai
04-21-2010, 04:25 PM
Personally, I think we should stop selling all duals and buy all of them up. Force the hand if you will. Kidding, kidding. I know I'll get bashed for even thinking that.


Anyway, I can vouch for over 300 of those going to the trash can due to Iron Man Ante. Makes you wonder how many are just plain gone.

stalkerzero
04-21-2010, 07:55 PM
As much as I miss ante I miss iron man ante much, much more. I can't even imagine during that period how much money was destroyed in cards.

I think forcing the hand might actually be a good option. Make the company react in some way. Probably would backfire terribly though.

I see all the talk about the duals lately and I just keep thinking that even if they print duals in the ways listed to get around the list THEY ARE STILL NOT THE ORIGINALS NOR AS GOOD. Maybe it's just time to print something better.

jrsthethird
04-21-2010, 09:13 PM
What's iron man ante?

stalkerzero
04-21-2010, 09:50 PM
What's iron man ante?

The ante card is destroyed or worse after the game.

Everyone had different twists to it. But you can bet that most players that were around before 1995 saw at least one piece of power die to this.

lordofthepit
04-21-2010, 11:11 PM
I had considered the possibility of cards being destroyed, because I remembered dahcmai mentioning Iron Man Ante in a previous post. I dismissed it as a negligible consideration because I didn't think that many people participated in it.

If anything, it seems that because the popularity of Iron Man Ante decreased steadily over time, the Revised duals are less likely to be destroyed than A/B/U power (or duals), and moreover, I understand in some variants, you choose which of the opponent's cards to destroy, which would preferentially select for power. Thus if this is a significant effect, it's more likely to limit the supply of power than it is the supply of duals.

majikal
04-21-2010, 11:20 PM
The ante card is destroyed or worse after the game.

Everyone had different twists to it. But you can bet that most players that were around before 1995 saw at least one piece of power die to this.
Jesus that brings back memories. We used to play games with giant stacks of cards where any time you destroyed something or had to sacrifice something, you ripped up that card.

stalkerzero
04-22-2010, 10:22 AM
Jesus that brings back memories. We used to play games with giant stacks of cards where any time you destroyed something or had to sacrifice something, you ripped up that card.

I know this is incredibly off topic but we used to play at lunch in school and this guy seriously ran a deck list that was:

Plague Rats x32
Dark Ritual x 4
Black Lotus x4
Swamp x20

Any time you lost to it you were obligated to just go throw your whole deck in a trash can.

dahcmai
04-22-2010, 09:33 PM
Iron Man Ante was where you played a game until one player lost. Now back then, you could go below 0 life until the end of the phase. So the idea was to shove them as far under 0 as possible. For each life point you got them into the negatives, you shredded a card from their deck.

Some people would pick the card, some did it at random. Most of the time we picked since it wasn't real cool to rip up Lotuses and Moxes since they were still pretty expensive even for back then. So duals became the card of choice to shred. They weren't expensive just valuable to the owner since they were high trade bait. They were worth around $8 or so at the time so it was a good chunk of cash, but not as bad as your $40 mox or something.

You have to remember Magic was primarily a college student game and well college students drink a lot of alcohol and make up stupid shit to do. lol




I still have a "shame deck" that kills with a Supreme Exemplar and no other creatures. It's a control deck that's actually not bad, but the kicker is it only has that one Supreme Exemplar and one Stifle.

jrsthethird
04-23-2010, 01:40 AM
I've heard of it now, but not with the destruction of cards. Crazy kids...