[Format] Ancient, need some deck ideas....

[Atwa]

I found out a gamestore some 20 miles away is going to organise an Ancient tournament, which is basicly a reversed Standard. Since I never heard about it and I bet a lot of you also don't know the format, here are the rules:

You can only play with cards printed in:
Alpha, Beta, Unlimited, Revised,Antiques, Legends, Arabian Nights, The dark, Fallen Empires,Ice age, Homelands and Alliances.

Same banned list as Vintage.

Restricted list:

Ancestral Recall
Balance
Black Lotus
Black Vise
Channel
Demonic Consultation
Demonic Tutor
Fastbond
Library of Alexandria
Mana Vault
Mind Twist
Mox Emerald
Mox Jet
Mox Pearl
Mox Ruby
Mox Sapphire
Necropotence
Regrowth
Sol Ring
Strip Mine
Time Walk
Timetwister
Wheel of Fortune

Now I actually want to play in it, but I have no idea what to play. Does anyone have any ideas? I am actually tempted to try out Enhamgeddon, since I just love Armageddon decks, but I'm sure you guys can come up with something better.

[Skeggi]

CounterPost used to be a strong archetype, it's a creatureless control deck which eventually uses Kjeldoran Outpost tokens as the wincondition.

Just throw in Force of Will, Mana Drain, Counterspell, the usual power, a couple of Swords to Plowshares, Wrath of God, Control Magic and you're almost there.

From the top of my head, something like this:

1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus
1 Library of Alexandria
3 Kjeldoran Outpost
2 Soldevi Excavations
4 Tundra
5 Plains
7 Island

4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Mana Drain
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Timetwister
3 Control Magic
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Wrath of God

X something else, I'm sure you can think of something. You are allowed to play 4 Brainstorm and 4 Merchant Scroll. This may ask for some abusal. Oh, forgot to mention: Thawing Glaciers. And Balance. You may want to include Soldevi Digger in your sideboard to make sure Mill decks won't get the better of you.

[Atwa]

With 10 proxies I should be able to build that, however I like to play with real cards and no way I'm going to pay a couple of thousend euro's to get a few cards I'll never use again. Seems like I'll be playing a fair deck. I want to proxy up 5 cards at most.

I like the way you are thinking though. Counterpost was a real good deck from what I've read.

I think I'll scout mws tonight to se what the pool has to offer. I'm pretty knowledgable about the cardpool from fourth edition onwards, but I have no idea about playable cards older than that.

[Skeggi]

There also used to be a semi-combo deck involving Lich and Drain Life. Although with Force of Will already in the format, I wouldn't recommend it.

[jrsthethird]

The original Sligh: http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/td/87

2 Dwarven Ruins
4 Mishra's Factory
13 Mountain
4 Strip Mine
23 lands


4 Brass Man
2 Brothers of Fire
2 Dragon Whelp
3 Dwarven Lieutenant
2 Dwarven Trader
2 Goblins of the Flarg
4 Ironclaw Orcs
2 Orcish Artillery
2 Orcish Cannoneers
2 Orcish Librarian
25 creatures 1 Black Vise
1 Detonate
1 Fireball
4 Incinerate
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Shatter
12 other spells

Sideboard
3 Active Volcano
1 An-Zerrin Ruins
1 Detonate
1 Fireball
4 Manabarbs
1 Meekstone
2 Serrated Arrows
1 Shatter
1 Zuran Orb

Of course this list can be made better using the theory we have available today, but apparently it was innovative for the time (Gorilla Shaman over Dwarven Traders to blow up Moxes, for example). Maybe you'll catch people off guard again. Also, very cheap to build.

[Eldariel]

Sui Black/wr is fairly good; nonbasic hate isn't all that widely available in the format (very little, frankly, outside Blood Moon) and you have Sinkhole, Hymn, Hypno, Knights, Juzam and company. White and Red of course come in with good removal (in Bolts) and Armageddon + Disenchant as something of an SB for control match-ups. City of Brass + Plateau + Scrubland + Badlands makes for a decently consistent manabase. Magic-League had "Old School Constructed" tournaments that are Fallen Empires and back, where I performed rather decently with Sui Black.

Btw, I strongly suggest whatever you play, you try and make use of all the 5 Moxen. That's why Keeper dominated for so long; it was built with all the broken acceleration in use. In fact, building something Keeperish may be a very good idea, especially with Force in the format. What kept me off it in the first place was lacking Force and with Alliances, suddenly life is good.


Zoo with Channel/Fireball also performed well back then. Again, duals make for decent mana and getting a bunch of 2/Xs for 1 and decent 2-drops along with Bolts, Psi Blast and company tends to perform. And having the ability to win turn 1 is beneficial.

Frankly, yeah, I'd just build Keeper. 'cause why not? You have Drains & Forces, and even Counterspells if you feel so inclined, Braingeyser makes for a decent draw engine, you have Moats and such, you make the best use out of all the restricted acceleration, you get to play more tutors to further improve your silver bullet strategy, you have crap like Balance and overall, you're pretty damn well off.

And for Sui Black, I'd definitely pack Necro + Demonic Consultation + Demonic Tutor.

[Atwa]

How about White Weenie with Lions, Knight, Divine Transmutation, Crusade, StP, Armageddon and Land Tax? Could use Serra Angel as the bad assed beatstick.

Damn, so many old school decks to chose from.

[Eldariel]

How about White Weenie with Lions, Knight, Divine Transmutation, Crusade, StP, Armageddon and Land Tax? Could use Serra Angel as the bad assed beatstick.

Damn, so many old school decks to chose from.

Frankly, I'd say that's underpowered in this environment. You don't have Empyrial Armor or Scroll Rack making Land Tax rather "meh" nor 4 Strip Mines. You don't really have anything that made White Weenie so good back in the day and X Control would just rip you a new one. Overall, red is harder to stop due to the multilayered attack of burn, beats and LD while black rips opponent's gameplan right apart but white only has Armageddon which, I fear, will fall prey to countermagic against control without other reliable threats to force it through.

But ultimately, I suggest control is the place to be at. Actually, I propose "the best control-deck" was never built back then due to magic theory being at its infancy and lots of card evaluations being skewed from what we understand nowadays. Therefore, I suggest building Keeper with as much broken in it as you can possibly fit. You get:
Solomoxen without So (6)
AR + TW (2)
LoA (1)

Leaving you to play Timetwister or another card you cannot acquire with your last proxy. Demonics, Mind Twists, Strip Mines, Sol Rings, etc. should be cheap...though you probably don't have Mana Drains which tosses this plan right on its face. I don't assume you happen to own any Power, do you? 10 Proxy should still be enough to cull some of the less necessary pieces like TW, Timetwister, and an off-color mox or two for Drains.

[Atwa]

Nope, no power for me.

I can easily acquire any cards I don't own except for the Vintage power cards (Bazaar, Power, Workshop, Library, Drain) and Moat. I own almost every playable card in this format or can buy it for cheap as I can justify the purchase for an EDH deck (Strip mine, Sol Ring).

As a shell of a control deck, I have made this draft. Not sure if I will go for control, but pure as brainstorming:

21 Lands (duals and City of Brass)
1 Lotus
3x Mox
1 Sol Ring
1 Strip Mine

1 Recall
1 Time Walk
4 Mana Drain
4 Fow
1 Mind Twist
1 Balance
1 Regrowth
1 Demonic Tutor
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Nevinyrral's Disk
And some way of creature contol (Control Magic, Wrath of God, etc)

A few thoughts:
- How good would Brainstorm be in this format, considering there are almost no shuffle effects?
- Any thoughs on finishers? I know Serra Angel was played in this kind of deck, however I feel it's kind of vunerable against removal. No way I am packing Disrupting Scepter :)

[DrJones]

You can play the combo decks around Atog and/or Hurkyll's Recall, and obviously Stasis, but the best decks I've found are the ones that use Mishra's Workshop.

Green is pretty miserable, the best beaters are Ernham Djinn and Ifh-biff efreet, however there's a stompy build that might work for you if mana crypt and berserk are unrestricted in your format.

3 Ashnod's Transmogrant
1 Berserk
1 Black Lotus
1 Black Vise
4 Elvish Archers
4 Erhnam Djinn
3 Elvish Spirit Guide
12 Forest
4 Giant Growth
4 Ifh-Biff Efreet
4 Instill Energy
4 Llanowar Elves
3 Mana Crypt
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Scavenger Folk
2 Tracker
1 Mox Emerald
1 Sol Ring

The deck might need an update, probably one strip mine,citanul druids, spectral bears, and a couple more berserks. Instill Energy was pretty savage against Stasis, and Ashnod's Transmogrant can be used as removal with Scavenger Folk, pump for elvish archers, tracker and ifh-biff, and to protect against terror and the abyss. I would suggest playing Ashnod's Transmogrant, artifact creatures and/or protection from black creatures, because Abyss is brutal against creature-based decks.

Edit: Brainstorm is pretty good because it protects against discard, which is pretty strong in slower formats.
Edit 2: Ugh, now that I think, that deck is very obsolete. It cannot compete even if I added SuChi, Pendelhaven and Juggernaut.

[Atwa]

Because I never play the best deck available to me (and I am an ass about it), I decided not to go with a deck like Keeper, Counterpost or Sui, but instead opted to go with a sort of old school Boros thingy:

7 Mountain
4 Plateau
4 Mishra's Factory
2 City of Brass
1 Hammerheim
1 Karakas
1 Strip Mine
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby

4 Savannah Lions
4 Ironclaw Orcs
4 Ball Lightning
2 Balduvian Horde
2 Orcish Artillery
1 Phyrexian War Beast

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Incinerate
2 Guerrilla Tactics
2 Exile
1 Lava Burst
1 Balance
1 Detonate
1 Black Vise

Sideboard:
4 Red Elemental Blast
4 Disenchant
2 Karma
2 Guerrilla Tactics
1 Exile
1 Zuran Orb
1 Fireball


I basicly went for straight Burn with a couple of tricks in it:
- Balance is brutal here, you empty your hand very quickly, you have almost never any creatures on the board (Lions and Orcs get killed very fast) and you need very little land. Balance is very unfair in this deck.
- Tactics are punishment for when your opponent plays discard. Too had it doesn't work like maddnes though, I would love to discard this card to a Horde or a Balance.
- Exile costs a lot, but gives you the life to survive an extra turn so you can cast that last Bolt, and I took a lesson from Path to Exile in Zoo (lifegain is very bad against you), so I play no StP.
- Warbeast is the first card that gets sided out, but I like a 3/4 for 3 and the landdestruction clause plays well with Balance. Also, it's the only creature in the deck that doesn't die to a simple Terror.
- I'm not sure about Balduvian Horde, but a 5/5 is pretty good in a format in which the best creature will turn out to be a 4/4 flyer (wild guess). The random discard sucks, but I think that the other 4 mana option (Dragon Whelp) is pretty underwhelming.

Any ideas that I missed? Like I said before, my knowledge of expansions older than 4th/mirage is very limited, so I'm sure I've overlooked something.

[Nihil Credo]

Given that you'll care about blockers a lot more than attackers, Reprisal seems better than Exile. For the sideboard, Ankh of Mishra and/or Manabarbs seem good hate against Keeper decks.

[Atwa]

Given that you'll care about blockers a lot more than attackers, Reprisal seems better than Exile. For the sideboard, Ankh of Mishra and/or Manabarbs seem good hate against Keeper decks.

You have a point about Reprisal. I will test it out, however I do believe Exile is the better card in this deck. There won't be a lot of very big creatures in this format (except for Serra Angel and maybe Sengir Vampire and the occasional Wurm), so Reprisal won't hit a lot of creatures. After my opponent gains control over the game (which will happen a lot I think), Exile can buy me the time (lifegain) to finish the game with some burn spells. It also deals a lot better with pesky creatures as Hypnotic Specter.

The biggest thing Resprisal has to offer me is the casting cost. I am already pressed in the cc=3 departement, and it would fit better as a cc=2 card.

I'll have to test it though, there is a very good chance you are right about it.

As for sideboard options, against keeper I think the Manabarbs are too slow. I'll test out Ankh of Mishra, since it's a pet card of mine and it seems to fit the theme very well. I'm just wondering if Blood Moon wouldn't be better...

[Aleksandr]

Enhamgeddon

What about Willowgeddon? With Karakas it could be sick. I think you need a red splash for Moxmonkey, Stormbind and Soldier of Fortune, but maybe a sole GW version could be enough.

4 Savannah
? Taiga
? Plateau
1 Strip Mine
? Outpost
2-3 Karakas
? another utility lands
? Plains + Forest

4 Birds
3 Moxen
1 Ring

? Armageddon

4 Gorilla Showman
? Soldier of Fortune (or Land Tax?)
3 Autumn Willow
4 Erhnam Djinn

1 Black Vise
1 Ivory Tower
1 Digger

? Ressurection
4 Swords
? Exile and/or Reprisal
? Nature's Blessing

1 Regrowth
? Lodestone Bauble

? Storm Seeker

3 Sylvan Library (Land Tax not banned? Oh really? Hm...)
3 Stormbind (Land Tax not banned? Oh really? Hm...)
4 Land Tax (Land Tax not banned? Oh really? Hm...)

? Fireball (hm... not exactly, maybe Incinerate...)
? Lightning Bolt (Specter, Knights, stuff...)

Disk/Tome/Manipulator?

SB:
Tsunami
CoP: Metagame
Disenchant
WoG
something to handle Ihsan's Shade
Serrated Arrows


Hm... So many options.

I think this could be a solid Tier II deck.


/languor





PS: I wanna play it! Now!

[dahcmai]

I played during that time so I'll lend you some decklists from that era. The real kicker is the rules they will be going by. Back then, there were a few things banned or restricted that either are not today or are now. Are they using today's restricted list or the one used for the time. Which rules are they playing by? Are you using the original Revised rules or 6th edition rules? Makes a huge difference.


I'll give you the lists where it doesn't matter too much and you can let me know what cards you have. Though most everything used power even then.


Kird Ape Channelball

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Sol Ring
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Counterspell
1 Time Walk
1 Timetwister
1 Berserk
1 Channel
4 Elvish Archers
4 Giant Growth
4 Llanowar Elves
1 Regrowth
4 Disintegrate
4 Fireball
4 Kird Ape
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Forest
1 Loa
1 Mountain
4 Strip Mine
4 Taiga
4 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island

You'll have to adjust for the Strip Mines, but just use Stone rains or something. Same thing in this slow format.


You won't top this one if they use Revised rules.


1 Black Lotus
2 Disrupting Scepter
1 Jayemdae Tome
1 Mirror Universe
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Amnesia
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Braingeyser
2 Counterspell
4 Mana Drain
1 Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Timetwister
1 Regrowth
2 Red Elemental Blast
4 Disenchant
2 Moat
2 Serra Angel
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 City of Brass
4 Island
1 Loa
2 Plains
3 Strip Mine
4 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island

You need revised rules to be able to use the Mirror Universe as a kill.



This is a Browse Digger Deck from type 2. You'd have to adjust this to reflect the power and such, but it's a mean deck. I used to play the crap out of it. If you have Time Walk, you can use it to recycle and then it doesn't matter what your kill will be, just attack with a Zephyr Falcon over and over via time walk turns.

2 Serrated Arrows
2 Icy Manipulator
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Brainstorm
1 Disenchant
4 Arcane Denial
4 Power Sink
4 Browse
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
1 Word of Undoing
2 Jester's Cap
2 Soldevi Digger

4 Adarkar Wastes
2 Plains
19 Island


Or you can be a complete and utter ass.

4 Ardarkar Wastes
4 City of Brass
4 Underground River
13 Island
4 Arcane Denial
4 Boomerang
3 Despotic Scepter
1 Feldon’s Cane
4 Force of Will
4 Howling Mine
1 Ivory Tower
2 Kismet
1 Land Tax
4 Lim-Dul’s Vault
2 Recall
4 Stasis
2 Zuran Orb




Just remember no matter what deck you pick, abuse the crap out of the restricted list if they use a current one. Ivory Tower is stupid amazing for back then. It's busted even. Unrestricted now. Candelabra of Tawnos was restricted and so was Mishra's Workshop, they were ridiculous back then. Just play some Juggernauts and Su-Chi's and the rest doesn't matter too much.

Land Tax, Zuran Orb, Mind Twist, and the like were all way too powerful for that format when it was being played. Abuse it if you want to win.

[Aleksandr]

I' ve once again thought about this format and I feel like Big Blue is the most potent. Having three sick pieces of countermagic (CS, Drain, FoW) is really strong. Use white for board control and black splash for restricted stuff like Mind Twist or D. Tutor. You can finish people with Outpost and/or Serra Angels.

[Atwa]

Thanks for the lists so far.

As I understand it, we will be playing with 10th edition rules and the banned/restricted lists in the openingpost, so no abusing of Mirror Universe...

As cool as I think ChannelBall will be, it's risky as hell, a simple Force of Will or Mana drain (hell, even Force Spike) on the Fireball/Incinerate/Lava Burst will spell: You just got set back to 1 life(ish).

I think there will be a lot of control played and I want to see if I can just make an aggro deck and race them. I've been goldfishing with the list I've posted a little above, and I love it. Normally it goldfishes around turn 5, without any power. I just really want to fit in Wheel of Fortune (drawing 2-3 burnspells normally means game over), but I'm not sure what to cut yet.

I might cut the Black vise for it, but when a lot of people will be playing Control (with Ivory Tower), it might have it's uses.