Does anyone think that Mono B Reanimator is a better performer than B/U Reanimator

[Jon Stewart]

Do you think it's possible that the common wisdom that B/U Reanimator wins more game/performs better might be wrong? Is it possible for consistency and explosiveness to trump resiliency and flexibility?

That's what I am left wondering after this past week of testing sessions.

Me and my friend have been alternating back and forth between playing my Mono B Reanimator deck and his B/U Reanimator deck (a replica of the GP Madrid winning deck), and we're now both fairly convinced that Mono B Reanimator is the overall better performing deck!!

On paper, B/U Reanimator looks a lot more flexible and resilient. But in practice, Black actually has lots of resiliency as well, and what it's lacking in, it more than makes up for in consistency. The Mono B Reanimator deck combos off a LOT faster and more frequently, combos off multiple times in the same game when neccesary, and all this serves to make it a much more brutal deck to contend with for most matchups.

The performance seemed so lopsided, that he is actually switching his B/U deck over to Mono B Reanimator this weekend.

There's a couple of reasons why I think this is so...

A.) Black already is more than capable of answering everything. I play 4 Thoughtseize, 4 Unmask, 2 Cabal Therapy and even sideboard 4 Duress. If I see more hate, I would maindeck the Duress. Those cards are honestly as good as countermagic. It's hard to overstate how useful it is to know every single card in your opponent's hand. You know exactly what the right play is at any time because of this.

Usually, if I have none of my 4 Entomb or 4 Buried Alive or 3-4 Beseech in my hand, but I do have a creature and I opt not to mulligan, I just draw go to discard the creature the next turn. But if I have discard effects to spare, Thoughtseize, Unmask and Cabal Therapy are also awesome in letting me discard my own creature.

In addition, I play 3-4 Beseech the Queen the deck and a single Nev's Disk as a one of in the maindeck (more in the board that I can bring in. This gives me the perfect out against Leyline, Countertop, Chalice, Swarm Aggro and all sorts of other randomness. And Beseech also helps make the deck a lot more consistent, when it's not answering stuff like Leyline. I play Dark Rituals and 19 Swamp to help me fuel these cards out fast with little difficulty (and I even bring in Mishra's Factories from the board to speed this up. Factories are helpful in holding off aggro and standstill decks are also awesome against Edict/Gatekeeper/Pox effects).

Beseech is an absolutely fantastic tutor (and can always be pitched to Unmask when not needed), and it's another reason to play Mono B.

B.) The deck is a LOT more consistent. Between 4 Entomb, 4 Buried Alive, 3-4 Beseech, being able to discard my own creatures by passing the turn, or by using my discard effects, I almost never need to mulligan and I never have difficulty getting a creature into my yard (even after Bajuka Bog or something cleans out my yard).

Between 4 Reanimate, 4 Exhume, 4 Animate Dead and 1-2 Life/Death (and Beseech to tutor for more), I never have any difficulty Reanimating creatures, multiple times in a game if neccesary.

Both me and him and our whole store notice that my deck seems to be comboing out faster and more frequently, all while Thoughtseizing/Unmasking away any possible answers my opponents may have in hand.

For reference here is the list I'm currently playing (one of two cards keep switching back and forth but it's always 98% the same). I don't even think it's an optimized list, and I might be better off just playing more lands instead of dark rituals. But nevertheless, the deck still works well.

4 Thoughtseize
4 Unmask
0/2 Cabal Therapy

4 Reanimate
4 Exhume
4 Animate Dead
1 Life/Death
(I've been toying with the idea of playing another Life/Death or maybe Dance of the Dead, or maybe even Necromancy above)

4 Beseech the Queen
1 Nev's Disk (This card has won me so many games and in so many different random situations it's nuts).

4 Entomb
4 Buried Alive

1 Iona
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Blazing Archon
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind

3 Dark Ritual
2 Mishra's Factory
17 Swamp

My sideboard is probably not optimal, but this is what I went with and it's been working great for me...
2 Duress
2 Cabal Therapy
4 Leyline (This is a flex slot and could be just about anything).
3 Nev's Disk (Disking your opponent is an enormous tempo gain against most every aggro and aggro control matchup, and you can do it on turn three with a Dark Ritual)
1 Oblivion Stone
1 Dark Ritual (It helps vs. combo).
2 Mishra's Factory (Factory is great at getting you the Mana to play disk, while also helping you stall aggro decks or dodge Edict effects. But the card could also be Bajuka Bog if you're not playing Leyline, or Wasteland if you fear Maze of Ith and play fewer creatures with Shroud or something)

Before you are quick to disagree, I urge you to try something like this out.

The deck is incredibly powerful and consistent. Just try it out online if you want (though the shuffler is crap on Workstation).

I am also considering the possibility of relegating Nev's Disk to the sideboard entirely to simply play 4 Beseech or perhaps to play 4 Phyrexian Arena in place of Beseech, because of the inherent consistency of the deck. I would consider Confidant but that seems rather suicidal with all the high cc cards.

Here is the BU Reanimator list that was good enough to win GP Madrid, but that my list consistently seems to outperform...

2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp
4 Underground Sea
2 Verdant Catacombs
16 lands

1 Blazing Archon
1 Empyrial Archangel
2 Inkwell Leviathan
2 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
7 creatures

4 Brainstorm
4 Careful Study
1 Dark Ritual
4 Daze
1 Echoing Truth
4 Entomb
4 Exhume
4 Force of Will
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Reanimate
1 Show and Tell
2 Thoughtseize

I would like to discuss with other Reanimator players why the Mono B version might be performing better, or if other reanimator players have had contradictory findings. I feel it could be very fruitful. It may well end up being the case that the ideal version of the deck is a U/b version of the deck that is identical to the Mono B version I posted above, except replacing Beseech with Mystical Tutor and Nev's Disk and Dark Ritual with Brainstorm. Having this discussion, and comparing the performance of the two decks is the only way to know for certain.

[troopatroop]

Coming from someone who's tinkered around with both, my experience tells me than Mono-B is actually not more "consistent". Brainstorm and Ponder add a very real bit of consistency. As does Mystical Tutor, because there's alot of assurance. Not playing these cards gives you room to play more Step 1 and 2 cards in this deck, but then you become more dependant on your opening hand. This could be because I was playing with a Putrid Imp build, where yours plays all straight tutors, but I'm not sure. I think they're both terrific decks, and deserve some acclaim, but I'm still not certain about which one is "better". I never tried Nev's Disk, but I don't think it belongs MD. It requires 4 lands without Ritual, and you're only playing 19. I could see it in the Sideboard.

[Jon Stewart]

Thank you for the well thought out post.

Maybe you're right, but in my experience, there were plenty of times when I kept a hand with the hope that a Brainstorm or Ponder can get the remaining combo piece, and then was stuck when the card failed to do so. But perhaps I was misplaying the deck and should have mulled more often or something. With the Mono B build, you get a much better idea of exactly what your first few turns look like and can decide whether to mulligan or not based on this. And thanks to the discard, you get a much better idea of exactly what your opponent's first several turns look like.

It also sucks royally that the B/U build plays such an anemically low land count and is almost dependent on the cantrips to make up for this.

Disk has saved my butt a couple of times in game one, but I could see relegating the card entirely to the board, and only bringing it against Leyline, and also when I bring in some Mishra's Factories from the board to supplement it. This in turn would let me play the 4th Beseech in the maindeck and use the card entirely to tutor up lacking combo pieces, further improving consistency.

I do think a lot of this has to do with the fact that you were playing a Putrid Imp build. The Putrid Imp strategy seems rather weak but I would be curious to see the list you played

[Some Guy]

What do you do in the mirror when the opponent gets iona out naming black ?

[Vacrix]

Well I wouldn't limit the discussion to just B and U/B. Old school Dragon Reanimator was pretty dam good. Kilnmouth Dragon is nuts in the right build. Some dude played it at my local store back in 07. It looked pretty dam good actually.

EDIT:
I played both B and UB, (I currently play UBg on the side). UBg has been by far the best build I've played with, especially recently with Iona (I played Reanimator in 05-07 way before Iona).

[Jon Stewart]

Vacrix, do you mind posting the Mono B list you played, and the most favorite Reanimator list you played, just so we get a better idea of how your deck functioned. I don't know if I'm missing something, but Kilnmouth Dragon seems horrible as a Reanimate target.


What do you do in the mirror when the opponent gets iona out naming black ?

After they get Iona out, your best option is using Nev's Disk to destroy it.

But before they get Iona out, you have tons of options...

Leyline of the Void (or Bojuka Bog) from the Sideboard

Use your discard to get rid of their Reanimate effects.

Use your Reanimate effects (you play a lot more of them than they do), to Reanimate creatures (and Iona naming Blue) from their graveyard.

Reanimate a creature (ideally Iona but even Inkwell works) before they do and race them.

If they're not playing Leylines in the board, I would say that you are the favored deck in this matchup (to my knowledge, most B/U lists don't play Leylines in the board). My friends deck is a close copy of the GP Madrid list and thus wasn't playing Leylines, and whenever we sideboarded, I usually won handily, but we played mostly non sideboard games. Even if they are playing Leylines, I would guess it's not too far away from 50/50, which is exactly what you would expect in a mirror matchup.

[Rune]

Have you actually beaten Leyline with the disk? It seems like MonoB's solutions to hate are really clunky compared to UB's.

[Obfuscate Freely]

Several of the things you like about your mono-black build can just as easily be incorporated into a blue-black shell. Including Dark Rituals, lowering the creature count, and moving discard spells to the main are all improvements that can be made to any build of the deck.

After that, you're left to decide whether to play Brainstorm, Ponder, and Mystical Tutor, or Beseech the Queen, Animate Dead, and Buried Alive. I don't think this is a very hard decision.

[Jon Stewart]

After that, you're left to decide whether to play Brainstorm, Ponder, and Mystical Tutor, or Beseech the Queen, Animate Dead, and Buried Alive. I don't think this is a very hard decision.

I don't think it's that simple. If you do that, you're giving up playing 4 creature buriers and 4 reanimators (both combo pieces) for 8 cantrips.

You would become absurdly reliant on Entomb, and being able to mull into or tutor for Entomb every game when you do that. Cantrips like Brainstorm and Ponder aren't all that reliable when what you are seeking is a very specific card like Entomb that you only play four copies of.

And all the while, you're also playing far fewer reanimate effects so you will have to try to get those with your mulligans, cantrips and tutors as well.

I've had Brainstorm and Careful Study whiff on me multiple times. And many times, in the blue version, I wind up with neither a burier, not a reanimate effect in my hand where as that pretty much never ever happens with the black version since it plays as many bury effects and reanimate effects as decks like Fairie Stompy play blue sources. So it's pretty easy to figure out what to Beseech for in any situation.

But I'll take your point into consideration. I'm going to ask my friend to do just that, play the same build I'm playing but going...

-4 Beseech the Queen
-4 Animate Dead
-4 Buried Alive
+4 Brainstorm
+4 Ponder
+4 Mystical Tutor

and see how that version performs.

[Vacrix]

Jon, back in the day I played something like this:
Mono-B:
Creatures:
4 Putrid Imp
1 Akroma, Angel of Wrath
1 Phantom Nishoba
1 Sundering Titan
1 Simic Skyswallower
1 Blazing Archon
1 Bogarden Hellkite

4 Buried Alive
2 Living Death
4 Exhume
4 Animate Dead
4 Reanimate

4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Dark Ritual

20 Swamp

Something like that. It was a while back while Entomb was banned. Living Death wasn't bad.. until the format got much faster. The explosiveness of Dark Ritual was beautiful in this deck because you could usually do something cool with it turn 1. Sometimes Rit, Duress, Hymn, sometimes Buried Alive, sometimes, a fast Living Death, etc. It wasn't the best list, but it was certainly playable back in the day (though not by today's standards).

I never played with a Dragon build. The guy at my local event did. Kilnmouth is good because its usually an 8/8 flying that says tap deal 3 damage to target creature or player. Sometimes its even an 11/11 flying. It was good because it ended the game quickly (though sometimes its tap ability was also relevant). The deck played that as a fat swinger and Bogarden Hellkites to clear the board against aggro. The only drawback of playing such a deck is that you need to run a lot of dragons, otherwise Kilnmouth isn't going to be amplified. If it were played today, a list might also include Knollspine Dragon (refilling your hand is nice). Its certainly an aggressive build (likely good against aggro and combo) but its fatties are significantly weaker against removal.

My favorite build is the one I currently play (UBg) with MD stifles. Its not bad but it needs a few updates. Its a fairly conventional list.

[Obfuscate Freely]

While I understand that Brainstorm and Ponder don't always find you what you need, they make up for that by usually finding you gas, and often doing more. Compare Animate Dead to the Brainstorm that draws you into Force, Reanimate, and Daze.

The real reason I think the decision is easy is that, in this case, the difference between the first-rate combo cards (Entomb, Reanimate, and Exhume) and the second-rate combo cards (Buried Alive and Animate Dead) is really pretty big. I would always rather have to Ponder for an Exhume than lose my (5/6) Sphinx to a Qasali Pridemage, and there are lots of situations in which having to settle for a three-mana, sorcery-speed Entomb is worse than leaning on Brainstorm.

I think you'll be tempted to agree once you've tested the deck as you outlined above, but I should also mention that Force of Will is obviously amazing for the deck, as well. Unmask isn't far off that mark, though.

[Jon Stewart]

Compare Animate Dead to the Brainstorm that draws you into Force, Reanimate, and Daze.

Yeah, that would be amazing. But Brainstorm is far more likely to NOT draw you the Reanimate (or Bury) effect that you are looking for to combo off. Just playing a lot more Bury and Reanimate effects really helps you make better decision on when to mulligan, and what card to tutor/Beseech for.

Valcrix, that looks interesting. I tried something like that way back when.

Entomb though seriously made the deck sooo much better.

Especially now that you have Beseech to tutor it or Buried Alive up when you need it.

Playing Entomb + Buried + Beseech means that you no longer have to play chaff cards like Putrid Imp.

And you no longer have to waste so many deck slots to big creatures.

And you end up with something far more explosive than that old list.

Hymn isn't very good in the deck as well. Unmask, Duress, Cabal Therapy, Thoughtseize are all far better in Reanimator.

[Vacrix]

Agreed, its an outdated list, but you asked for it. :P
I bought Entombs for the deck not knowing it was banned. As it turns out it was a great investment (about $6 for a playset). :D

A Dragon list is probably less viable then lists with Iona but its certainly a decent option for budget players in mono-black, though your list is likely even more budget (minus thoughtseize).

Hymn is actually really underplayed in Mono-B Reanimator, especially in builds with Dark Ritual. Duress/Thoughtseize + Hymn is crippling even in todays metagame.

[Jon Stewart]

Hymn is very underplayed in black aggro decks and black control decks.

But it does NOT belong in Reanimator decks. Reanimator decks typically don't care about 95% of the cards your opponents play. They care about very very specific and narrow cards. They care about Force of Will, Edict effects, Chalice of the Void/Counterbalance (if it doesn't have access to Disk) and possibly Path/StP if the creature that they are planning to Reanimate is Sphinx.

In addition, Reanimator decks really like to know what cards your opponents are playing. When I Thoughtseize or Unmask or Cabal Therapy naming Force of Will and see that my opponent is holding both Daze and FoW in hand. I get rid of the FoW and know to always play around the Daze for my key spells. If I know they don't have a Daze, I can feel free to not leave a mana open to play around it. Likewise, when I know that my opponent is holding a Tormod's Crypt or Bajuka Bog, I know to be sure to both bury and Reanimate the creature on the very same turn.

[Some Guy]

I would always rather have to Ponder for an Exhume than lose my (5/6) Sphinx to a Qasali Pridemage, and there are lots of situations in which having to settle for a three-mana, sorcery-speed Entomb is worse than leaning on Brainstorm.

*cough* pro green *cough*

[Dissolution]

His example is implying that the Sphinx is in play because of an Animate Dead.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?15359-How-I-Beat-Competitive-Decks-Piloted-by-Competient-Players-with-Reanimator is about doing well with a mono-B build of reanimator.

The major problem with Mono-B is that you can die to topdecks. You dump a creature into your yard, say go, they topdeck a crypt, there goes your creature. Even with Dark Ritual, you're having to cast three-mana spells (Beseech, Buried Alive), where the U/B build rarely casts anything with CMC over two.
You're reliant on drawing or using a CMC 3 tutor for your sideboard pieces, which is also terrible. Hate for reanimator is at an all-time high (grave hate in general), the ability to use Mystical Tutor, Ponder, and Brainstorm to find bounce/counter makes the deck more resilient.
-T

[Forbiddian]

The fact that U/B reanimator has Force of Will makes it a tough matchup for other combo decks. I know I'm a lot more scared of U/B reanimator than MonoB Reanimator.

And if your question is really, "Is it a better performer?" definitely not. U/B Reanimator has a GP win and like a half-dozen top 8s and I don't think I've seen MonoB Reanimator do anything.

[menace13]

*cough* pro green *cough*

*cough*5/6 sphinx=Animate dead*cough.

As Forbidian said, there is no showings of mono b as opposed to a bunch with b/u. I even top 8'd the 1st Legacy PE on MTGO with it and wouldnt dream of trying to pilot it w/o FoW/Daze/Bstorm/Tutor.
It may be better in a pseudo-mirror matchup, but that is where it ends. B/U also has Show and Tell.... many matches come down to it, where the opponent has a Relic/Crypt or Leyline and animator just taps 2U to blank the whole board full of hate.

[Rico Suave]

Everything you can do with mono-black Reanimator, you can do with U/B Reanimator. Except you get to do it with Brainstorm, Force, Mystical Tutor, and other blue cards.

U/B is just better. Even if you only splash for Brainstorm, it is better. You literally lose nothing in the process because fetchlands are so good at making the mana base work.

[dahcmai]

Curious question to someone who has played this mono-B version a lot. I used to play a mono-B reanimator during Mirage and I used to use Anvil of Bogardan to keep the cards coming. Do you think it actually has a place now or is it just too slow? I have not played any of these newer versions so I have no clue as to whether or not it's a viable choice.

[Kangaxx]

Do you think it's possible that the common wisdom that B/U Reanimator wins more game/performs better might be wrong? Is it possible for consistency and explosiveness to trump resiliency and flexibility?

That's what I am left wondering after this past week of testing sessions.

Me and my friend have been alternating back and forth between playing my Mono B Reanimator deck and his B/U Reanimator deck (a replica of the GP Madrid winning deck), and we're now both fairly convinced that Mono B Reanimator is the overall better performing deck!!

On paper, B/U Reanimator looks a lot more flexible and resilient. But in practice, Black actually has lots of resiliency as well, and what it's lacking in, it more than makes up for in consistency. The Mono B Reanimator deck combos off a LOT faster and more frequently, combos off multiple times in the same game when neccesary, and all this serves to make it a much more brutal deck to contend with for most matchups.

The performance seemed so lopsided, that he is actually switching his B/U deck over to Mono B Reanimator this weekend.

There's a couple of reasons why I think this is so...

A.) Black already is more than capable of answering everything. I play 4 Thoughtseize, 4 Unmask, 2 Cabal Therapy and even sideboard 4 Duress. If I see more hate, I would maindeck the Duress. Those cards are honestly as good as countermagic. It's hard to overstate how useful it is to know every single card in your opponent's hand. You know exactly what the right play is at any time because of this.

Usually, if I have none of my 4 Entomb or 4 Buried Alive or 3-4 Beseech in my hand, but I do have a creature and I opt not to mulligan, I just draw go to discard the creature the next turn. But if I have discard effects to spare, Thoughtseize, Unmask and Cabal Therapy are also awesome in letting me discard my own creature.

In addition, I play 3-4 Beseech the Queen the deck and a single Nev's Disk as a one of in the maindeck (more in the board that I can bring in. This gives me the perfect out against Leyline, Countertop, Chalice, Swarm Aggro and all sorts of other randomness. And Beseech also helps make the deck a lot more consistent, when it's not answering stuff like Leyline. I play Dark Rituals and 19 Swamp to help me fuel these cards out fast with little difficulty (and I even bring in Mishra's Factories from the board to speed this up. Factories are helpful in holding off aggro and standstill decks are also awesome against Edict/Gatekeeper/Pox effects).

Beseech is an absolutely fantastic tutor (and can always be pitched to Unmask when not needed), and it's another reason to play Mono B.

B.) The deck is a LOT more consistent. Between 4 Entomb, 4 Buried Alive, 3-4 Beseech, being able to discard my own creatures by passing the turn, or by using my discard effects, I almost never need to mulligan and I never have difficulty getting a creature into my yard (even after Bajuka Bog or something cleans out my yard).

Between 4 Reanimate, 4 Exhume, 4 Animate Dead and 1-2 Life/Death (and Beseech to tutor for more), I never have any difficulty Reanimating creatures, multiple times in a game if neccesary.

Both me and him and our whole store notice that my deck seems to be comboing out faster and more frequently, all while Thoughtseizing/Unmasking away any possible answers my opponents may have in hand.

For reference here is the list I'm currently playing (one of two cards keep switching back and forth but it's always 98% the same). I don't even think it's an optimized list, and I might be better off just playing more lands instead of dark rituals. But nevertheless, the deck still works well.

4 Thoughtseize
4 Unmask
2 Cabal Therapy

4 Reanimate
4 Exhume
4 Animate Dead (I've been toying with the idea of playing Dance of the Dead or Life/Death or maybe even Necromancy here)

4 Beseech the Queen
0 Nev's Disk (I decided to relegate the one of Nev's Disk to the sideboard for now).

4 Entomb
4 Buried Alive

1 Iona
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Blazing Archon
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind

3 Dark Ritual
19 Swamp

My sideboard is almost certainly crap, but this is what I went with...
4 Duress
4 Leyline
3 Nev's Disk
1 Oblivion Ring
3 Mishra's Factory (Factory is great at getting you the Mana to play disk, while also helping you stall aggro decks or dodge Edict effects. But the card could also be Bajuka Bog if you're not playing Leyline, or Wasteland if you fear Maze of Ith and play fewer creatures with Shroud or something)

Before you are quick to disagree, I urge you to try something like this out.

The deck is incredibly powerful and consistent. Just try it out online if you want (though the shuffler is crap on Workstation).

I am also considering the possibility of relegating Nev's Disk to the sideboard entirely to simply play 4 Beseech or perhaps to play 4 Phyrexian Arena in place of Beseech, because of the inherent consistency of the deck. I would consider Confidant but that seems rather suicidal with all the high cc cards.

Are you trying to justify playing this blueless becuase you can't afford Underground Sea? That's the only logical explanation, from what I see. Because usually UB>Mono B.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I can see reasons why focusing on a black suite of discard would be better than a blue counter suite. I can't see a reason that splashing for Mystical Tutor and Brainstorm and Daze wouldn't be better, however.

[Jon Stewart]

I'm just curious here. But how many people here critiquing Mono Black Reanimator, have actually played any modern version of Reanimator (splash or no splash), just as long as it's a build that played 4 Entomb and is NOT an old build of Reanimator that played cards like Putrid Imp that are crap by today's standards.

I wrote this thread to share and discuss my findings based on my experiences with both my Mono Black Reanimator deck and my friends GP winning B/U Reanimator deck clone. Both of us have played both decks and came to the exact same conclusion upon testing, that the Mono Black version is faster, more explosive, top decks better, and can recover faster. And this is all without even taking into account factors like vulnerability to wastelands, stifle and blood moon.

I'm not sure exactly why this seems to be the case, but indeed, it absolutely does seem to be the case. Even our playtime with both decks today reaffirmed these findings, that the Mono Black version seems to be faster, more consistent and more explosive, and performs better in top deck mode (if the opening hand fails as it can for any combo deck).

I'm curious to have other people try out the Mono Black decklist that I posted in my OP and tell me whether they notice it too. So far, two out of two people who tried and compared both versions of the deck, do notice it.

I was talking about the standard B/U Reanimator lists (not a theoretical list that splashes solely for Brainstorm and Mystical Tutor and maybe a one of Echoing Truth). And compared to the standard list, I've regularly seen the Mono B version I'm playing out perform it.

Maybe you have a point about there might not being much disadvantage to splashing blue solely for Brainstorm and Mystical Tutor, but I am not convinced for a couple of reasons.. (Daze is easy to play around and doesn't tell you every thing in your opponent's hand so I still prefer discard to that). Daze is perfect in tempo decks because even if your opponent's play around it, it only gains you tempo. But in a deck like this, it's really important that key hate cards your opponents play don't resolve, and in that case, relying on a card that can be.

The splashing solely for Brainstorm and Mystical Tutor point is somewhat debatable for a couple of reasons. Mystical Tutor is card disadvantage and also more importantly, doesn't let you grab Nev's Disk with it. By not being able to grab Disk, M. Tutor doesn't serve Beseech's main function nearly as well. You have to settle for some weakass bounce spell like Echoing Truth that more often than not is just a delay tactic and not an actual answer to your problem card. Beseech being able to grab Disk or Oblivion Stone has been insanely useful and gamebreaking. I rarely need to use Beseech to grab a combo piece since the deck plays so many combo pieces already. So it's main purpose is indeed to grab you Disk (while occasionally grabbing you a missing combo piece). Mystical Tutor is unable to serve Beseech's most vital role nearly as well. And no Show and Tell is not the answer. Since it does nothing agianst random stuff like Noetic Scales and also, you rarely have a creature card in your hand since this build only plays 4.

Brainstorm is fantastic, but only if you have a shuffle effect, otherwise, it's often just par for the course. You probably are able to resolve a shuffle effect after playing the card about 50-60% of the time you play the card. But that other 40-50% of the time, the card can be very meh. That said, there is no real disadvantage to casting it then. But you are basically splashing a whole color just for that card, and also if that Brainstorm was a Buried Alive or Animate Dead, there's tons of scenarios where that really saves your butt. But I think inspite of this Brainstorm is never a dead draw and the single best card blue has to offer the deck (since Mystical Tutor is unable to serve the most valuable function that Beseech serves).

And lastly splashing a color does open you up to all sorts of hate. Since most blue versions of the deck run such an anemic land count and are extremely reliant on both colors (and can be screwed over completely by getting cut off from either color), getting lands Stifled or Wastelands or Blood Mooned or Magus of the Mooned. can be game over for you by slowing you down way too much. I've seen that and had that happen to me countless times when playing the B/U version. The Mono B version never has to worry about LD, which helps make the deck incredibly more resilient.


I've won many many many games against Leyline, Noetic Scales, Progentius and all sorts of random crap for one reason and one reason alone. Nev's Disk (and Oblivion Stone along side Disk in game two against stuff like Meddling Mage or Gadook Teeg). Game one, I am playing a single one of Nev's Disk and for whatever reason, I've almost never had any trouble tutoring for the card and using it whenever I needed it. The ridiculous number of times I keep reanimating stuff helps me immensely as well.

This has happened to me countless time in dueling, where my opponents gets off a Macabre or resolves a hate card, and yet I easily draw into another reanimate spell or Disk and made a full recovery.

But I think perhaps one of the best ways to test the resiliency of a deck to hate is to play it in free for all multiplayer. Just yesterday, I played around 7 games of multiplayer with this deck, against Pox, Leylines, Progenitus, Countertop, StP, PtE, Noetic Scales, Iona, Macabre, Damnations and Wraths, all sort of hate that you see in multiplayer games. Much of the hate obviously went after me, the guy playing Ionas, Blazing Archons, and the 7/11 islandwalking shroud tramplers. And yet, many games, I was able to reanimate out creatures 4-5 different times over the first six turns (inspite of opposing hate), all while blowing up Leylines, Countertop and Noetic Scales to win the game or atleast defeating many of the players in the game. Nev's Disk has been a god send. (I am playing Oblivion Stone in the sideboard in case opponents Meddling Mage Nev's Disk or something because the effect is just that good).

Plus you get so many more broken turn one or two plays with Mono B than U/B that help you outright steal games. And I never get mana screwed.

I already can't count the number of games I won to a first turn Ritual, Unmask, Entomb, Animate Dead/Exhume or a first turn Ritual, Thoughtseize, Entomb, Reanimate (or even either of those plays spread out over two turns). Or even Ritual, Buried Alive, Turn 2, Thoughtseize, Reanimate or Unmask, Animate Dead, Exhume. That resulted in my opponents scooping right then and there. With the mono black version of the deck, you almost always reanimate something on turn one or turn two, or at the very latest turn three with ridiculous consistency. And if they answer it, you also often have several other reanimate effects in your hand, and top decks with ridiculous consistency. It's hard to describe just how fast, powerful and broken the mono black version feels to play. You really have to just throw it together and try it out. There is no way around it.

The mono b version being faster and more consistent is so incredibly useful against the many many many random matchups you run into that have no good answers to reanimate. Everyone talks about countertop and Leyline (which the deck does have a fantastic out to), but no one considers that many fast but random decks and players still don't play much or any effective hate in their sideboards. Burn is something I see often, and being able to consistenly drop down Iona turn one or turn two is such a critical aspect to beating this matchup. And against those matchups, the mono b version is guarenteed a win, where as the B/U version can still sometimes be too slow in getting the combo pieces together and resolving them.

I can't overemphasize how incredibly strong Nev's Disk has been for the deck even and esp game one. I know, mathematically game one, it shouldn't work with just 19 lands. But often seems to. Where I am unable to win the game fast and early. It's only because opponents expend so much time and resources to dealing with my creatures or trying to stabilize with life linkers that I rarely have trobule getting to 4 lands on the board. Game two playing Disk (or O Ring), becomes monumentally easier when playing against hate.

[menace13]

Seems terrible to play out a beseech with 4 lands in play to grab dsk, play disk, pass the turn, pop disk then try and win.
For that to work it requires 7 mana, most of the time it will be 1 ritual and 5 lands and to activate disk and then reanimate is at least 2, but more likely 3 mana after playing and passing ewww. Just seems really slow and clunky...and then Pithing Needle on disk comes down and you lose:cry:

[Rico Suave]

There are so many things wrong with this post.


I was talking about the standard B/U Reanimator lists (not a theoretical list that splashes solely for Brainstorm and Mystical Tutor and maybe a one of Echoing Truth). And compared to the standard list, I've regularly seen the Mono B version I'm playing out perform it.

Yet everyone else has come to the opposite conclusion. Perhaps are you biased?


The splashing solely for Brainstorm and Mystical Tutor point is somewhat debatable for a couple of reasons. Mystical Tutor is card disadvantage and also more importantly, doesn't let you grab Nev's Disk with it. By not being able to grab Disk, M. Tutor doesn't serve Beseech's main function nearly as well. You have to settle for some weakass bounce spell like Echoing Truth that more often than not is just a delay tactic and not an actual answer to your problem card. Beseech being able to grab Disk or Oblivion Stone has been insanely useful and gamebreaking. I rarely need to use Beseech to grab a combo piece since the deck plays so many combo pieces already. So it's main purpose is indeed to grab you Disk (while occasionally grabbing you a missing combo piece). Mystical Tutor is unable to serve Beseech's most vital role nearly as well. And no Show and Tell is not the answer. Since it does nothing agianst random stuff like Noetic Scales and also, you rarely have a creature card in your hand since this build only plays 4.

You are running a bad card in Disk, and then using that bad card to justify another bad card in Beseech. Consider that for a moment.


Brainstorm is fantastic, but only if you have a shuffle effect, otherwise, it's often just par for the course. You probably are able to resolve a shuffle effect after playing the card about 50-60% of the time you play the card. But that other 40-50% of the time, the card can be very meh. That said, there is no real disadvantage to casting it then. But you are basically splashing a whole color just for that card, and also if that Brainstorm was a Buried Alive or Animate Dead, there's tons of scenarios where that really saves your butt. But I think inspite of this Brainstorm is never a dead draw and the single best card blue has to offer the deck (since Mystical Tutor is unable to serve the most valuable function that Beseech serves).

I have a much, much higher percentage of Brainstorms that shuffle. It's quite possible that churning one out as early as you can is the wrong play and you might need careful timing and patience in using it. Brainstorm is very much a card that the vast majority of people play incorrectly.


And lastly splashing a color does open you up to all sorts of hate. Since most blue versions of the deck run such an anemic land count and are extremely reliant on both colors (and can be screwed over completely by getting cut off from either color), getting lands Stifled or Wastelands or Blood Mooned or Magus of the Mooned. can be game over for you by slowing you down way too much. I've seen that and had that happen to me countless times when playing the B/U version. The Mono B version never has to worry about LD, which helps make the deck incredibly more resilient.

Like I said before, fetchlands solve any sort of "problem" that would arise against non-basic hate. You can fetch basics against Wastelands or Moon/Magus. Sure Stifle becomes a problem, but hey you have Force of Will with blue. And not many people play Stifle. And it's not too hard to play around it anyway. And it's equally not hard to just play basic lands either.


But I think perhaps one of the best ways to test the resiliency of a deck to hate is to play it in free for all multiplayer.

Oh my dear lord. Please do not believe this, you are only hurting yourself.


I already can't count the number of games I won to a first turn Ritual, Unmask, Entomb, Animate Dead/Exhume or a first turn Ritual, Thoughtseize, Entomb, Reanimate (or even either of those plays spread out over two turns). Or even Ritual, Buried Alive, Turn 2, Thoughtseize, Reanimate or Unmask, Animate Dead, Exhume. That resulted in my opponents scooping right then and there. With the mono black version of the deck, you almost always reanimate something on turn one or turn two, or at the very latest turn three with ridiculous consistency. And if they answer it, you also often have several other reanimate effects in your hand, and top decks with ridiculous consistency. It's hard to describe just how fast, powerful and broken the mono black version feels to play. You really have to just throw it together and try it out. There is no way around it.

Unmask is worse than Force by a mile.


The mono b version being faster and more consistent is so incredibly useful against the many many many random matchups you run into that have no good answers to reanimate.

They have no good answer to reanimating. What is the problem here with EITHER version? Is this the kind of opponent you test your mono-B deck against, then claim it is superior than U/B? It seems to be, given your testing gauntlet so far has consisted of casual decks and multiplayer games, and that is all fitting of the 0-3 bracket.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

So you wait until turn 4 to Beseech for Disk, drop Disk on turn 5, then blow it up turn 6.

Frankly, you could Mystical Tutor for Repeal, Echoing Truth, Wipe Away or Cryptic Command In a fraction of the time. You ought to be getting a turn 2 or 3 fatty. Why are your plans involving clearing the board on turn 6?

[Jon Stewart]

No that's not how it usually goes. This is how lots of games go. They see you playing reanimator, and they try to dump out their whole hand in order to try to race you (including Countertops, Chalice of the Voids and such annoyances that they use up turns to cantrip into/tutor for and cast). If you can combo off, you combo off and when you do succesfully, you win regardless. But if you can't combo off because they used up their turns to play Countertops and Chalices and stuff, and use up their countermagic to stop you, often RFGing important card that would've speeded up their deck to FoW, they've already spend a couple of turns doing that rather than playing creatures to brign down your life total. You buy even more time with your Discard, Mishra's Factories, or techy plays like forcing them to discard a Goyf or Sower of Temptation and Reanimating, Life/Deathing or Animate Deading it over to your side. All this stuff buys you long enough time for you to play and use Disk. Or it's also possible that you can simply Dark Ritual into Disk on turn two and wipe the whole board on turn three.

Yes it seems like a lot of trouble to go to play and use Disk. But Disk isn't some stupid bounce card, it gains you enormous game winning tempo right there. Disk costs 5 Mana. Pernicious Deeding for 4 costs 7 mana. And both have the same effect on the board. One disk and it's usually game over for most opponents. They can't recover when they've already expended so many cards to stopping and trying to race your combo, they usually have a close to empty hand.

You do get a fatty on turn 2 or 3. The Disk is what you use if you lose the fatty. The deck consistently plays a fatty turn one or turn 2, more frequently than in the B/U version. Many times, that's game right then and there. And you get a win (where as if the B/U version had to spend it's first turns Brainstorming and cantripping and tutoring it's way into the fat, it could easily be too slow for Zoo, Burn, Goblins and other aggro matchups.

Bounce doesn't save you against a board full of threats. Bounce buys you one turn, against one threat, and that's rarely enough.

But sometimes, it's not game as soon as you get fat on the board. They find a way to destroy it (edict, StP on sphinx, using sower of temptation to steal an iona that named white to stop their StPs, things like that).

In those situations, you do reach 4 land easily and it's immensely helpful to be able to clear the board of all creatures with a Disk.

Disk is not that slow in the situations it helps. Even without Ritual, you use it on turn 5. But the main stuff you need to use it for, stuff like Chalice of the Void, Counterbalance + Sensei's Top, also costs your opponent a turn or two of mana to cast, and sometimes another turn to cantrip into. So both you and your opponent are playing at a slower pace.

Postboard, Factories are tremendously useful in stalling for a couple of turns aggresive decks, and if those decks devoted some of their turns and cards to stopping your first attempt combo out, once again, you have more than long enough to use Disk to clear the board.

I never thought Disk would be useful when I put the deck together either. On paper, yes it does look too slow, and I never bothered maindecking it.

But I've been simply floored at how often useful Disk ends up being. You either combo off and win right away. Or your combo gets stopped delaying both you, and your opponent by a turn or two, which often is all the time you need for Disk to be useful. And it's impossible to overstate how massive of a tempo gain it is to Disk the entire opponent's board. It's also a card they rarely see coming until it's too late and they've already over extended.

And there's also plenty of situations where Dark Ritual accelearates into Disk or Oblivion Stone especially game two and three.

Yes, playing Brainstorm (the best card blue has to offer imho) does make the deck more consistent by showing you three more cards. But simply playing more combo pieces in it's place like wise also makes the deck more consistent. And it's easy to underestimate how much without trying the deck out yourself. Brainstorm is not a tutor afterall, there is no guarentee that the cards it shows are the cards you need. But simply playing more combo pieces gives you a 50/50 chance that it is precisely the card that you do need to combo off. Combine that with your tutor effects and ability to discard creatures, and it's actully more like a 70/30 chance that it is precisely the card that you do need.

P.S: this is off topic, but for everyone touting B/G builds, I would almost certainly run both Pernicious Deed and Sylvan Library in such a build.

[Vacrix]

If you want a good sweeper in Reanimator, play Living Death. Especially when you have access to Dark Ritual and Mystical Tutor, its straight up wins games against aggro. My philosophy though, is that if you need a board sweeper while playing Reanimator, then you are probably doing it wrong.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Okay, call me crazy here. You play a lot of discard because you think it's better than counters. Your complaint is that they dumb their hand and your discard suddenly doesn't work. So you're opposed to playing, say, Repeal.... why exactly? I mean, you get the general concept of how bounce + discard works, yeah?

Spoils had an entire color around this interaction. Seems relevant here. Seems better than paying nine mana to cast Beseech, Disk and activate over three turns. Seems better than going monocolor for no Earthly reason.

And really, I'm Mr. Monocolor over here, but there should be some compelling interest why you would go that route. In Reanimator it doesn't seem to make any sense.

[Jon Stewart]

Nonsense. Disk is not central to the deck, it's the ultimate back up plan. You often don't need it. If your primary plan fails for some reason, disk still singlehandedly wins the game for you.Read my post above or try it out and you'll see what I mean. Discard + bounce is FAR inferior. Discard is part of your primary plan but u occasionally use it to dump a goyf or sower in their yard and reanimate it for yourself.

Living death is largely useless. It only answers creatures.

[Rico Suave]

Yes, playing Brainstorm (the best card blue has to offer imho) does make the deck more consistent by showing you three more cards. But simply playing more combo pieces in it's place like wise also makes the deck more consistent.

This is misguided.

You have 8 ways to put fatties into the graveyard. B/U also has 8 ways to put a fattie into the graveyard.

4 of your 8 ways cost 3 mana! This is slow. All of B/U's options are 1 mana.

Both decks have 4 tutors to find one of the above enablers. Except your tutors cost 3, which is slow. Blue's tutor costs 1.

Oh yea, and you don't have Brainstorm. You are actually less likely to see a way to put a fattie into the graveyard than a blue deck, and very much less likely to do so in a timely fashion.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Nonsense. Disk is not central to the deck, it's the ultimate back up plan. You often don't need it. If your primary plan fails for some reason, disk still singlehandedly wins the game for you.Read my post above or try it out and you'll see what I mean. Discard + bounce is FAR inferior. Discard is part of your primary plan but u occasionally use it to dump a goyf or sower in their yard and reanimate it for yourself.

Living death is largely useless. It only answers creatures.

Most decks with Tarmogoyf also have Qasali Pridemage.

Look, here's what I and others are trying to get through to you:

You can plan for every eventuality and always have an out, but past a certain point all you're doing is reducing the chances of your actually winning a game. What if Enchantress gets Karmic Guide and Confinement out? What if Loam follows up Chalice with Devastating Dreams? What about 43 Land getting out a Glacial Chasm and Karakas? What about Scepter-Chant?

You're going to lose some games. There's no way around that. Magic is a game of averages. You want to stack the odds so that you lose as few games as possible.

Weakening the deck by cutting a strong color and exploding your mana curve so you can pay nine mana to "win the game" by blowing up some situational permanents is probably not going to be the best way to go about that.

[Vacrix]

Living death is largely useless. It only answers creatures.
Let them play their creatures, only to eat a sweeper. Then you can just counter other threats. Its also good for long games against aggro control where they can put a clock on you AND counter your shit. Its one more reanimation spell and it sweeps the field. Reanimating one creature sucks sometimes if your opponent has a big enough team.

[coraz86]

It seems to me that the OP, and some posters, are more focused on the combo-esque variant of the deck and are getting suckered by cool things. I would back up IBA's point about one needing a compelling reason to go mono-black over UB, and would further suggest that you go either the control route favored by Your Move Games at PT-Houston 2002 (http://wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=sideboard/events/pthou02) or the attrition-based route favored by some builds of Rock and by Solar Flare when Time Spiral first rotated into Standard. I think I'd start with the YMG lists, myself.

I feel like Brian Davis' Free Spell Necro deck from PT-Chicago 1999 is worth mentioning too; I think Reanimator could take that kind of tempo stance in the right hands. I don't have the time or patience to try to make something like that work, but I think someone who has more experience with the deck and enjoys that style of Magic could really do well with it.

[Artowis]

The kicker is all the Blue cards let you actually play a decent g2/3 against hate, meanwhile the Mono B build looks completely miserable since there's no real way to find answers or increase your hand quality into you overwhelm the opp.

[kicks_422]

I worked really hard on Mono-Black Reanimator. But it was entirely for budget purposes, which is out of the question now because of the astronomical prices of Entomb. Seriously though, if I had the money, the deck would be built UB in a heartbeat. How can you choose Duress/Beseech The Queen/Buried Alive over Brainstorm/Ponder/Mystical Tutor?

[Jon Stewart]

I'm just curious here. But how many people here critiquing Mono Black Reanimator, have actually played any modern version of Reanimator (splash or no splash), just as long as it's a build that played 4 Entomb and is NOT an old build of Reanimator that played cards like Putrid Imp that are crap by today's standards.

I wrote this thread to share and discuss my findings based on my experiences with both my Mono Black Reanimator deck and my friends GP winning B/U Reanimator deck clone. Both of us have played both decks and came to the exact same conclusion upon testing, that the Mono Black version is faster, more explosive, top decks better, and can recover faster. And this is all without even taking into account factors like vulnerability to wastelands, stifle and blood moon.

I'm not sure exactly why this seems to be the case, but indeed, it absolutely does seem to be the case. Even our playtime with both decks today reaffirmed these findings, that the Mono Black version seems to be faster, more consistent and more explosive, and performs better in top deck mode (if the opening hand fails as it can for any combo deck).

I'm curious to have other people try out the Mono Black decklist that I posted in my OP and tell me whether they notice it too. So far, two out of two people who tried and compared both versions of the deck, do notice it.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Dude, you started a thread about a deck that no one but you has played for years, and which you clearly have a huge fetish for as evidenced by your post history (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?17142-Do-you-guys-have-any-suggestions-to-improve-my-Mono-Black-Reanimator-deck&p=448363&highlight=).

I don't think you get how this works. No one has an onus to prove your deck bad. You can present your deck for community approval. Clearly your question was answered- no, no one but you thinks this thing. Lacking logical or coherent explanations as to why their objections are wrong, it's up to you to put up some results to match those of U/B reanimator if you want to continue to push the issue.

[Jon Stewart]

I ask you yet again IBA. Have you played any modern version of Reanimator (splash or no splash), just as long as it's a build that played 4 Entomb in atleast the past few years? It's a simple question.

The thread makes it pretty clear that the purpose is to discuss the performance of various variants of reanimator. But to have a relevent discussion, it is prudent that the commenters at the very least has had some recent play experience with Reanimator, mono b reanimator would be preferable but experience any variant of reanimator would be okay, B/U, B/g, B/u/g, Mono B.

I wrote this thread to share and discuss my findings based on my experiences with both my Mono Black Reanimator deck and my friends GP winning B/U Reanimator deck clone. Both of us have played both decks and came to the exact same conclusion upon testing over several different days, that the Mono Black version performs better. And this is without even taking into account factors like vulnerability to wastelands, stifle and such.

I'm not sure exactly why the performance seem to favor the mono version of the deck, I posted several theories on why this might be, but can't be sure which are correct, but indeed, it absolutely does seem to be the case.

So far, two out of two people who tried and compared Mono B and u/b Reanimator came to the same conclusion, that the Mono b version seems to perform better, for whatever reason. I would like to discuss why it might be so, or if other reanimator players have had contradictory findings. I feel it could be very fruitful. It may well end up being the case that the ideal version of the deck is a U/b version of the deck that is identical to the Mono B version I posted, except replacing Beseech with Mystical Tutor and Nev's Disk and Life/Death with Brainstorm. Having this discussion, and comparing the performance of the two deck is the only way to know for certain.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Yes. I've even tried a discard-based suite; I always try out an Unmask suite over Force of Will (and often alongside), as I'm very fond of the card.

I also tried Animate Dead and found it fucking terrible when Qasali Pridemage is one of the most played cards. Not a lot of fucking point in having a 7/11 Shroud guy that dies to a 2/2.

Besides the fact that Force and Daze seemed better in the deck (although I kept Duress), blue was also invaluable for cheap card draw.

I think Stitch Together is possibly superior to Reanimate, which killed me more often than I would like, but that may be my own eccentricity. Certainly the card would be terrible in mono-B.

Do you have anything besides animal spirits?

[frogboy]

The thread makes it pretty clear that the purpose is to discuss the performance of various variants of reanimator.

The OP reads like you think it's pretty clear that the mono-black version is way better and that you are just asking a ton of leading questions. Which is fine, but call a spade a spade.

[Jon Stewart]

No the OP makes it pretty clear that the mono black build I posted outperformed the GP madrid build for both me and my friend. Because that was precisely what both of us found. And it asks why this might the case. I really think there are certain aspects of the Mono Black build that other Reanimator variants could greatly benefit from trying out.

IBA, thanks for contributing to the discussion. Yes Pridemage can be a pain for Animate Dead. But I've only run into it versus Bant/Top and Zoo and found it not that difficult to play around. If they haven't resolved the card yet, then its a simply matter of Animate Deading Iona naming White. If they have played the card, the deck plays 9 other reanimate effects, so more often than not, you have multiple reanimate effects in your to pick from. I name white, even game 2 or 3, because players won't bring Krosan Grips against you during game two. To their knowledge, you only play 4-5 targets for Grip, and none of those targets are all that crucial to the deck.

I'm very surprised you dislike Reanimate. The card is absolutely amazing. No it's no where near as good as Exhume, but it's light years ahead of Stitch Together. Yes, it costs you life, but 4 times out of 5, you can race them regardless. If not, you can gain back that life with Sphinx or stop your opponents from attackiing you with Blazing Archon.

Daze has disappointed me a bit in the b/u build. Daze works well in tempo decks where you care more about countering a Goyf or making them wait an extra turn to play all their cards, than you do about protecting your spell. But this isn't such a deck. Because they know that stopping your key spell or StPiing your creature or whatever is so crucial, they know to leave a mana untapped for that critical spell.

[frogboy]

No the OP makes it pretty clear that the mono black build I posted outperformed the GP madrid build for both me and my friend.

...That was my entire point.

[ddt15]

Isn't the blue component in there to make the deck work consistently (mystical) and make sure it doesn't roll over the random gy hate and edicts (counters). I don't see how mono black can possibly improve or even replace this kind of protection.

[Doomsday]

I definitely don't see any improvement here. You replaced stuff like Brainstorm, Ponder, Force of Will, Mystical Tutor, Careful Study, Show & Tell and Daze, with sub-par versions of Reanimate spells, worse discard spells, worse pseudo-tutors (Buried Alive) and more lands.

[zalachan]

The thing i hate about MonoB decks with Ritual, discard and no fetches is... they do crap a lot on you for no reason. I played MonoB DarkDepths last time and too many times, i was screwed/flooded for whatever reasons. i know that Depths is not the same stuff as Reanimator is, but some stuff is parallel IMO. But idk, maybe you like land blocks, since you play Disks and Buried Alive stuff..
I appreciate black for the things it provides: strong, sorcery speed disruption and threats. And i like blue for the versatility, instant speed card manipulation/counter/tutors.
I see UB version a lot stronger when mulliganing, searching for hate g2/g3, squeezing one more instant for 1 mana here and there, braking the game right there (Mystical, Brainstorm,..).

Saying Brainstorm is bad is blasphemy, its like saying Ancestral is bad cause "it only drew me a mox and 2 lands". That card (BS) is restricted in Vitage for a reason and Mystical too. Comparing UB vs. MonoB to me is like, idk. comparing Vintage oath vs. Solar Flare /w Dark Ritual. Sure, Solar Flare has WoG, where Oath only has bounce..

Mono Black version seems clunky.. i mean, we all know that black has that fundamental weakness trying to shore problematic permanents.. the only place they can battle them is the hand and possibly library (Sacrament, Extirpate).
The only other thing black can get to kill those are OStone and NevDisk and i think they suck big time. They are sorcery sorcery speed slow (ye, 2x for a reason) and you are just fooling yourself when sitting next to a guy, spinning his Top and Brainstorming and stuff, that your plan is better and that you will outlast him. I mean, SDT alone (floating answers like Wing Shards, STP, Faerie Macabre, Gilded Drake faerie) trumps your whole "discard/sweep problems plan".

If only your deck could effectively SB into something completely different (you know, like Trix-Negator plan).. but it just cant, cause all your maindeck cards are so slow and narrow (Animate Dead, Buried Alive)..
On the opposite, UB can adopt any savage non-GY based strategy (SnT is kinda weak imo, but with time, there will be more and better strategies i guess), since most of the cards are well known multitaskers (you know, tutors and draw stuff). Those card serve well to find combo, but also to protect it. What will your clunky black stuff do to protect you? You will wish the game to be over soon with that trash in your hand..

[Rico Suave]

Have you played any modern version of Reanimator (splash or no splash), just as long as it's a build that played 4 Entomb in atleast the past few years? It's a simple question.

I played it pretty extensively back when T1.5 was just an offshoot of T1, before Legacy became an actual format.

Mono-black was a lot worse than B/U back then too. The decks now are pretty much exactly the same as that time period now that Entomb is legal.

Did it ever occur to you that maybe people have played it, and disagree with your conclusions?

[Blackmagic]

I play reanimator occasionaly and always wanted it to be mono black for some reason, eventhough i do own force of will.
But mine has evolved into B/U simply for ponder and careful study, I'm still running a discard package instead of FoW and daze, this combination has worked so far as it allows me to dig into the deck faster, and I also think you have to have enough blue cards to justify FoW. I almost feel this is the natural progression of mono black reanimator players if you do prefer discard. as it replaces beseech as deck manipulation with the blue cards mentioned the deck still has the outright speed of mono black with dark rituals, but with more consistency in early draws. Eventhough disk isn't replaced by anything the consistent speed is what I bank on.
I also sideboard green for reverent silence, krosan grip and a singleton ancient grudge. If that makes any sense.:laugh:

Anyway
Can't we maybe discuss the merits of discard over counter in B/U builds?
I know certain metagames and scenarios would probably reward one over the other,
but isn't this the central question being asked?

I'm not saying my build is the ultimate build as it is just a massively fun deck I've always wanted to own, however I do want it to be my own build and thats why Ive try to go a slightly less travelled route.

[pi4meterftw]

Why is this thread asking if *Anybody thinks* Mono black is a better performer? Either U/B or B is better, and it's not an opinion which one is, etc. etc. But here even if you thought that opinions could possibly exist in the context of which deck is better, you asked which deck performs better. That's just a numerical thing. Can't you just look at the data and know for sure which one is the better performer?

[Peter_Rotten]

Why is this thread asking if *Anybody thinks* Mono black is a better performer? Either U/B or B is better, and it's not an opinion which one is, etc. etc. But here even if you thought that opinions could possibly exist in the context of which deck is better, you asked which deck performs better. That's just a numerical thing. Can't you just look at the data and know for sure which one is the better performer?

Word-play aside, I think the OP likely was wondering if Mono-black SHOULD be a better performer than UB, no?

[Vacrix]

Word-play aside, I think the OP likely was wondering if Mono-black SHOULD be a better performer than UB, no?
Agreed. Jon Stewart is trying to persuade people that they ought to try Mono-B because in his experience it is performing better than UB or UB/g versions. The problem IS that hardly anyone (if anyone) is playing it in tournaments. By persuading people to play it, it might see some results and therefore gain evidence to support its viability.

[Aggro_zombies]

Agreed. Jon Stewart is trying to persuade people that they ought to try Mono-B because in his experience it is performing better than UB or UB/g versions. The problem IS that hardly anyone (if anyone) is playing it in tournaments. By persuading people to play it, it might see some results and therefore gain evidence to support its viability.
Well, yeah, but "Should I play this deck?" is essentially a meaningless question, because without any reasons for or against it, you can't answer.

Assuming your goal is to win a tournament, it's reasonable to say that people should be playing the best version of the deck possible.

Therefore, in order to answer whether or not you should be playing the mono-black version, you have to decide what it has going for it over the currently highly successful blue-black lists, and whether that's worth giving up the blue elements of Reanimator. The claims of one guy who hasn't won or made Top 8 of any major tournaments are not a sufficient reason to deviate from lists that have. People might be willing to touch the deck if it starts winning, but until then you're faced with a "Why fix what ain't broke?" scenario.

In other words, there's no need to explore the viability of his build when the regular builds are doing very well and the apparent costs of losing blue seem to outweigh the consistency benefits of being one color.

[Vacrix]

Well, yeah, but "Should I play this deck?" is essentially a meaningless question, because without any reasons for or against it, you can't answer.

Assuming your goal is to win a tournament, it's reasonable to say that people should be playing the best version of the deck possible.

Therefore, in order to answer whether or not you should be playing the mono-black version, you have to decide what it has going for it over the currently highly successful blue-black lists, and whether that's worth giving up the blue elements of Reanimator. The claims of one guy who hasn't won or made Top 8 of any major tournaments are not a sufficient reason to deviate from lists that have. People might be willing to touch the deck if it starts winning, but until then you're faced with a "Why fix what ain't broke?" scenario.

In other words, there's no need to explore the viability of his build when the regular builds are doing very well and the apparent costs of losing blue seem to outweigh the consistency benefits of being one color.
Yea I agree completely. I play a UB/g list IRL and love it. I was merely stating Jon's objective. Mono-B builds try to compensate for a lack of resiliency with more speed. Instead of answering threats, it tries to race them (ie. Discard vs. Krosan Grip and Countermagic). So lists without blue are still viable, they are just worse than the blue builds that have already demonstrated their viability.

[Aggro_zombies]

Instead of answering threats, it tries to race them (ie. Discard vs. Krosan Grip and Countermagic).
Um...he runs Buried Alive, Nev's Disk, and Beseech the Queen. "Racing" is not the first thing that comes to mind here.


So lists without blue are still viable, they are just worse than the blue builds that have already demonstrated their viability.
Yeah, but my point was that a build that's worse than another build isn't viable, unless it exists in some weird metagame where the better build is being hated out or something. But that's not what he's saying; he's saying that, in a general sense, mono-black is better than blue-black. This discussion has pretty much beaten that point into the ground. Short of results to the contrary, mono-black is just flat-out worse, and therefore not a defensible choice.